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Bassplayerchick
Dec 1st 2007, 04:11 AM
"And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18

Does this mean if I become a really strong christian I can heal people by touching them?

Another thing that confuses me is the fact that the word of god is described as a sword. Why should I use it as a sword? (weapon)

Kahtar
Dec 1st 2007, 04:24 AM
"And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18

Does this mean if I become a really strong christian I can heal people by touching them? When one sets aside his own abilities and ambitions, and seeks to do what the Holy Spirit directs us to do, and allow the Holy Spirit to work through us, then, yes, you can lay hands on someone and they will recover. Listening to the Spirit is the key.


Another thing that confuses me is the fact that the word of god is described as a sword. Why should I use it as a sword? (weapon)A sword is used against an enemy. The enemy of God, and of us, is the principalities and powers of darkness, satan and his host, and it is the Word of God that we use to defeat his attempts to lead us astray and destroy us.

markedward
Dec 1st 2007, 04:29 AM
But, just as a reminder, it's not like you gain superpowers that you work on command. It's up the will of God as to whether you will be able to do these things and when.

Bassplayerchick
Dec 1st 2007, 04:35 AM
But, just as a reminder, it's not like you gain superpowers that you work on command. It's up the will of God as to whether you will be able to do these things and when.
So god can choose not to heal someone?

Kahtar
Dec 1st 2007, 04:39 AM
uh huh. He doesn't always heal a person. Depends on the purpose of the thing. Sometimes we are so thickskulled that it takes a good whack to get our attention. Sometimes it's just our time to go.
Sometimes He heals instantly, sometimes over a period of time. Sometimes, He takes us home where we get a brand new body! Now that's healing!

Mograce2U
Dec 1st 2007, 04:40 AM
"And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18

Does this mean if I become a really strong christian I can heal people by touching them?

Another thing that confuses me is the fact that the word of god is described as a sword. Why should I use it as a sword? (weapon)
If we back up a few verses we see that Jesus is talking to the 11 apostles and admonishing them for their unbelief upon hearing about His resurrection:

(Mark 16:14 KJV) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

The ones who are to be believing are the ones He is sending and then these signs will accompany them as they preach the gospel. This is the special sign ministry that the Apostles were being given.

As for the sword of the spirit being a weapon, you needn't think that means it is used "against" others, since it is also effective for oneself:

(Heb 4:12 KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

jeffreys
Dec 1st 2007, 04:41 AM
So god can choose not to heal someone?
Absolutely. God is sovereign, and brings about His will - not necessarily our demands.

Susanna62
Dec 1st 2007, 05:15 AM
Another thing that confuses me is the fact that the word of god is described as a sword. Why should I use it as a sword? (weapon)


Are you referring to this verse?


Hebrews 4:12-13
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

When we read the Bible, it judges our thoughts and motives. It is how we tell right and wrong and how we tell when something in our hearts needs to be changed. It's called a sword because it can pierce deep inside us and through any of the layers of excuses or hardness we may have built up.

That's what I think it means, but I would love to hear other people's opinions because I've learned a lot that way.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 06:50 AM
Concerning healing: Is it God's will that anyone become sick? Does God partner with death? Does God have a "revealed" will and a "secret" will? Did Jesus ever tell someone that they were sick for a reason, and turn them away? Did He ever tell them that by their momentary light affliction God was working in them an eternal weight of glory? Didn't Jesus heal everyone that came to Him? Why do we make up false doctrines to hide our laziness and fallenness? Why can't we just admit that God doesn't heal through us because we don't have compassion on the sick, nor do we have faith or hope (true Biblical hope; not wishing)? Wouldn't God love it if we were just real with Him?

Flutecrafter
Dec 1st 2007, 07:11 AM
[/color]When one sets aside his own abilities and ambitions, and seeks to do what the Holy Spirit directs us to do, and allow the Holy Spirit to work through us, then, yes, you can lay hands on someone and they will recover. Listening to the Spirit is the key.

[color=darkgreen]A sword is used against an enemy. The enemy of God, and of us, is the principalities and powers of darkness, satan and his host, and it is the Word of God that we use to defeat his attempts to lead us astray and destroy us.good advice here; Bassplayerchick.

I would reiterate that it is God's decision though. :)

markedward
Dec 1st 2007, 09:12 AM
Concerning healing: Is it God's will that anyone become sick? Does God partner with death? Does God have a "revealed" will and a "secret" will? Did Jesus ever tell someone that they were sick for a reason, and turn them away? Did He ever tell them that by their momentary light affliction God was working in them an eternal weight of glory? Didn't Jesus heal everyone that came to Him? Why do we make up false doctrines to hide our laziness and fallenness? Why can't we just admit that God doesn't heal through us because we don't have compassion on the sick, nor do we have faith or hope (true Biblical hope; not wishing)? Wouldn't God love it if we were just real with Him?I disagree with this stance. I've known many people who truly, sincerely had faith in God healing someone who was sick. I had a friend who had cancer. He, his family, and the church had faith in God for his healing. The healing never came, and he died. But who are we to tell God what His will is to be? Was it not God who took David's son?

If you're asking such question, then, do you have as much faith as you claim others do not have? If such is true, that you convict others of their lack of faith and their "laziness," then you are probably filled with such faith that you have the right to convict others on their lack of faith. In that case, do you go to the sick with your faith and heal them? I surely hope so! For to be able to criticize others of their supposed lack of faith that healings do not happen for them should mean you do have that faith that people lack, so that you can actually perform these healings!

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 09:37 AM
I was using "we" throughout my post for a reason... And no, God's will for us does not include death or sickness or suffering, otherwise we'd see it in Rev. 21 and 22 - in the age to come... God hates death... The Spirit has used me in healing people of sicknesses, the best story so far being a woman with major vision problems, though we should never diminish healing "small things" like colds or headaches... And that's not the only reason that God doesn't heal through us, it's just a major reason - a foundational one... Until you've heard and witnessed testimonies of healing, we won't know what's available to us by the Spirit, and many times this keeps us from asking and receiving! Children often have the best healing track-record, because no one's yet "taught" them that they can't heal! (Go figure...) Some stories that bring me great encouragement: a friend of mine healed a man with tumors all over his body; the tumors just fell off onto the ground! A teacher of mine told us the other day that when on a trip to Central America, the church she was sent to minister to was teaching a relevant message to its members, "Just because you raise the dead doesn't mean that you can stop your quiet time with the Lord"! The testimonies that came out of that one meeting were amazing! A preacher came and spoke at the church I attend, telling us many healing accounts; a decapitated woman brought back to life; another woman who's neck was broken so severely that her head was facing the wrong way, and her eyes were out of her sockets, and she was raised from the dead by "laymen" in his church! A boy partially cremated and dead three days in Africa from another guest speaker was risen from the dead! Testimony from a man who had committed suicide, then was brought back to life by his Christian neighbor who didn't know what to do but pray in tongues! Another from a man who had even been embalmed! A man from an under ground church in China came and spoke, and casually mentioned (because it was so common to life over there) that they raised at least two and three dead people a week! Fingers where there were missing fingers; brand new hearts; cancer completely gone! Jesus died on the cross to heal us of our sicknesses and to overturn death... why do so many believe that this can only happen at Jesus' return?

Kahtar
Dec 1st 2007, 01:16 PM
why do so many believe that this can only happen at Jesus' return?I don't know friend, but no one in this thread has said that. I for have seen healings take place, and have laid hands on a few and they were healed.
But not every single one of them were healed that I prayed for. Did my faith suddenly grow weak? No. Perhaps they didn't have enough faith? Don't think so.
I was going to pray for a blind woman's healing once, and the Spirit said 'No, she sees fine already'. This woman has visions and is a powerful prayaer warrior. Plus, her family members who were 'stuck helping her' were learning valuable lessons in the process.
A dear friend of ours suddenly became ill, went to the doc and found she had cancer. We prayed for her healing. But she died. Lack of faith? No. She was a Godly woman who herself had been to Central America and had seen with her own eyes miraculous healing take place there. But, it was simply her time to go home.
And folks, dying is NOT a bad thing, if you are a Christiain. It's a blessed event! It means our race is done, and we can now begin spending our eternity with Christ! This body is nothing but grass that is here one day and gone the next. People act like this life here is all there is and make such a struggle to preserve it, when all the while it is only the first hour of our life, the rest of which takes place once we leave this one.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 06:39 PM
God takes no pleasure in death - it is not His will. This is why He's going to destroy death. And as I said, it's not always a lack of faith... there's lots of reasons why people don't get healed, but a lack of faith is the foundational reason. And death is a bad thing, even for Christ followers, because our bodies are good! That's why we get an immortal body at the resurrection! That's why heaven is coming to earth! Don't become reconciled to God's sworn enemy!

Mograce2U
Dec 1st 2007, 06:56 PM
God takes no pleasure in death - it is not His will. This is why He's going to destroy death. And as I said, it's not always a lack of faith... there's lots of reasons why people don't get healed, but a lack of faith is the foundational reason. And death is a bad thing, even for Christ followers, because our bodies are good! That's why we get an immortal body at the resurrection! That's why heaven is coming to earth! Don't become reconciled to God's sworn enemy!On the other hand, unless one dies to this life, he will not enter into the presence of God in heaven. While it only takes a small amount of faith to move mountains, death is a part of this life. Calamity & disease are the vehicles by which death comes to all - sooner or later. But because we have hope in death thru the resurrection of Christ, we do not fear nor mourn like those who have no such hope. The important part about a miraculous healing is not that our faith brings it about, but that God for His own glory does so at His discretion - therefore we trust Him whatever the circumstances we find ourselves in. What can be surely known is that nothing we can do will turn the hand of God at our will - whether by faith or superstition. God will be God in all things that please Him for His glory. And we know that trusting Him by faith whether we are healed or not is what pleases Him.

My hope is therefore anchored upon the resurrection of Jesus, not upon the sign miracle of Lazarus - who died again. Jesus holds the power of eternal life and gives it to whom He will. The sign is only to point us to the One who is that Life.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 07:04 PM
Again, no. Enoch did not experience death. Why? Because he walked with God. There is way more to that than just some lesser-than spiritual interpretation. A mystery is that not all will sleep! We often misunderstand the Scriptures... because we often misunderstand the will of God, and who God is.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 07:10 PM
we have hope in death thru the resurrection of Christ

How do you understand Biblical "hope"? To me it sounds like your "hope" produces in you acceptance instead of resistance...

Mograce2U
Dec 1st 2007, 07:19 PM
How do you understand Biblical "hope"? To me it sounds like your "hope" produces in you acceptance instead of resistance...Resistance to what? To me, hope gives me the power to resist fear and to persevere in faith when facing trials. I call upon the name of the Lord because I know He hears me and will give me whatever good thing I need according to His will. I ask according to my understanding, but with the knowledge and submission to the fact that it is His will which must prevail. On the other hand, if I don't ask, how will I know whether I am in His will or not in the thing that I desire? ;)

Mograce2U
Dec 1st 2007, 07:25 PM
Again, no. Enoch did not experience death. Why? Because he walked with God. There is way more to that than just some lesser-than spiritual interpretation. A mystery is that not all will sleep! We often misunderstand the Scriptures... because we often misunderstand the will of God, and who God is.The mystery which has been revealed to us is that NOT ONE OF US will sleep! As soon as we vacate this body we go directly into the presence of the Lord where we are clothed upon with immortality.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 07:31 PM
That'd be an example of you misinterpreting Scripture... Paul says that we, meaning the church, shall not all sleep, meaning some do sleep (cp. 11:30), but we all will be changed at the last trumpet.

Mograce2U
Dec 1st 2007, 07:35 PM
That'd be an example of you misinterpreting Scripture... Paul says that we, meaning the church, shall not all sleep, meaning some do sleep (cp. 11:30), but we all will be changed at the last trumpet.At the time he said that the resurrection of the OT saints had not yet occurred, and so some were still sleeping.

(John 11:26 KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Enoch gives us a type, but he did not go to heaven then, but to Sheol. His passage from this realm to that one was instantaneous, hence not seeing death at all. But no man entered into heaven until Jesus ascended.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 07:45 PM
The resurrection of the OT saints still haven't occurred... (Isa. 26:19-21).

And I never said that Enoch went to heaven... the point is that we don't have to experience physical death...

Bassplayerchick
Dec 1st 2007, 07:47 PM
Are you referring to this verse?



When we read the Bible, it judges our thoughts and motives. It is how we tell right and wrong and how we tell when something in our hearts needs to be changed. It's called a sword because it can pierce deep inside us and through any of the layers of excuses or hardness we may have built up.

That's what I think it means, but I would love to hear other people's opinions because I've learned a lot that way.
The armor of god one, I think it is in matthew or John I. I can't think at the moment and my friend borrowed my only bible for the afternoon.

Brother Mark
Dec 1st 2007, 07:49 PM
God takes no pleasure in death - it is not His will. This is why He's going to destroy death. And as I said, it's not always a lack of faith... there's lots of reasons why people don't get healed, but a lack of faith is the foundational reason. And death is a bad thing, even for Christ followers, because our bodies are good! That's why we get an immortal body at the resurrection! That's why heaven is coming to earth! Don't become reconciled to God's sworn enemy!


Ps 116:15
15 Precious in the sight of the Lord
Is the death of His godly ones.
NASU

Bassplayerchick
Dec 1st 2007, 07:55 PM
good advice here; Bassplayerchick.

I would reiterate that it is God's decision though. :)
Your a witch huh? That's cool. my best friend is a wiccan.

She says I am welcome in her coven (sp?) if I so choose and I can still worship god and read the bible without it being wrong. To repect the earth and follow the wiccan law of harming none are all I need to do to be good in a wiccan's eyes. She is one of the nicest people I ever met!


astrongerthanhe: God takes no pleasure in death - it is not His will. This is why He's going to destroy death. And as I said, it's not always a lack of faith... there's lots of reasons why people don't get healed, but a lack of faith is the foundational reason. And death is a bad thing, even for Christ followers, because our bodies are good! That's why we get an immortal body at the resurrection! That's why heaven is coming to earth! Don't become reconciled to God's sworn enemy!

THen why hasn't he done so yet? He is all powerful right?

Mograce2U
Dec 1st 2007, 08:04 PM
The resurrection of the OT saints still haven't occurred... (Isa. 26:19-21).

And I never said that Enoch went to heaven... the point is that we don't have to experience physical death...I quoted John to you and you came back with Isaiah? Does that mean you don't believe what Jesus was saying to Martha just before He raised Lazarus from the dead? This is no doubt WHY Jesus brought him back to life. So that POST-CROSS, he could be among those who would never die.

Martha shares her OT understanding of the resurrection, and Jesus gives her the new hope she is to have.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 08:35 PM
Ps 116:15
15 Precious in the sight of the Lord
Is the death of His godly ones.
NASU

That is one of my favorite verses! What does "precious" mean...?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 08:38 PM
I quoted John to you and you came back with Isaiah? Does that mean you don't believe what Jesus was saying to Martha just before He raised Lazarus from the dead? This is no doubt WHY Jesus brought him back to life. So that POST-CROSS, he could be among those who would never die.

Martha shares her OT understanding of the resurrection, and Jesus gives her the new hope she is to have.

I have no idea what you're talking about... I'm just about done with this conversation...

Nihil Obstat
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:35 AM
Mograce2U, I need to ask your forgiveness as well; I've sinned against you by posting with an angry spirit. The Spirit convicted me of not loving you, and thereby hindering the world from seeing Jesus in our midst. I humble myself and sincerely apologize. - Lk.11

Mograce2U
Dec 2nd 2007, 02:51 AM
Mograce2U, I need to ask your forgiveness as well; I've sinned against you by posting with an angry spirit. The Spirit convicted me of not loving you, and thereby hindering the world from seeing Jesus in our midst. I humble myself and sincerely apologize. - Lk.11I took no offense. I thought we were on the same page but apparently we're speaking of different things? I do enjoy our discussions and look forward to more. :hug:

Kahtar
Dec 2nd 2007, 04:25 AM
(1 Corinthians 15:50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(Hebrews 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(Romans 7:18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
(Romans 7:22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(Romans 7:23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(Romans 7:24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

We are appointed to die, physically. The death Christ abolished is the second death, eternal separation from God.
If we are alive when He returns, and our bodies are changed, our old body will still experience a death of sorts. It will cease to be.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 2nd 2007, 04:31 AM
No, it will not cease to be - it will be perfected! It will be incorruptible; it will be immortal! It will be changed, not destroyed. We will be further clothed with it; without it (in heaven) we will be unclothed! We are not appointed to experience death...

Kahtar
Dec 2nd 2007, 01:46 PM
Guess you'd better remove Hebrews 9:27 from your Bible then.
The fact is, all men throughout all written history have died, except two. And their time is appointed.
The greatest men of the Bible all lay in their graves. Abraham, David, the man after God's own heart, Paul and all the Apostles, all have died. Their graves are known. You can visit them in Israel.
This stuff about 'if we have enough faith we can live forever' is nothing but a fable that will destroy your faith when it doesn't work for you.
The fact is, these flesh and blood bodies are destined to return to the dust from which they came, a fact clearly spoken of in God's Word. That physical death may not be attractive, or pleasant to think about. It usually involves pain which none of us want to experience.
Frankly, I will be glad to be rid of this corrupt, weak, and failing corpse with all it's pains and needs, and receive my brand new one.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 3rd 2007, 01:31 AM
Guess you better ask what Heb. 9:27-28 is actually saying... especially with 1 Cor. 15:51 also canonized...

Kahtar
Dec 3rd 2007, 01:46 AM
(1 Corinthians 15:50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(1 Corinthians 15:51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(1 Corinthians 15:52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1 Corinthians 15:53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

(Hebrews 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

No contradictions here. The fact is, this body, as it is, cannot inherit the kingdom, whethe it has died or lives. Either way it must be changed. Our current condition is incapable of enduring the direct presence of God, and thus must come to an end. Only difference between the living and the dead is the time spent between the cessation of our flesh and blood bodies, and our taking on a new body.
The fact remains, this body must end.

But, since you seem to have a different interpretation of Heb. 9:27, how about sharing it with us?:)

cross crusader
Dec 3rd 2007, 03:51 AM
Absolutely. God is sovereign, and brings about His will - not necessarily our demands.
If all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus, and Jesus says that what he has been freely given he also gives freely to us, and the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead abides in us, Sounds like God, if you agree that God is perfect, made a law that He cannot break. What i mean is this, if you follow the Bible and the reasoning above, there should be absolutley no reason for someone not to be healed when prayed for as long as it is in faith. Because God is perfect. I dont see Jesus ever praying for someone specifically and they not get healed. show me one instance. I dont see Paul praying for someone and they not getting healed, show me Biblical examples, i know that Matthew 18:19 says that whatever we bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever we loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Now, that being said i do believe that sometimes it is not Gods will for someone to be healed at that instant, but since he set up laws that once again He cannot break, the healing takes place and sometimes whatever it is comes back.

bjones
Dec 4th 2007, 12:00 AM
Ps 116:15
15 Precious in the sight of the Lord
Is the death of His godly ones.
NASU

Thank you. Most talk about sickness presumes that death is bad. For the believer there is no death. To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. So death is the ultimate healing. Not only is the sickness removed, but the sinful nature of the flesh is removed too.

This is the blessed hope. That we can stand in His presence.

If God healed everyone, we'd have to be hit by a truck to enter His presence.

Brother Mark
Dec 4th 2007, 12:13 AM
Thank you. Most talk about sickness presumes that death is bad. For the believer there is no death. To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. So death is the ultimate healing. Not only is the sickness removed, but the sinful nature of the flesh is removed too.

This is the blessed hope. That we can stand in His presence.

If God healed everyone, we'd have to be hit by a truck to enter His presence.

I have often wondered why old age is not considered a disease by those that want to say it is God's will for everyone to be healed. ;)

But on a more serious note, Elisha went out in the same glory that Elijah did. Yet, Elisha died because of an illness. But the anointing was on him so strongly, that a dead man came back to life when the dead man was tossed on Elisha's bones.

If it your time to go, God may allow an illness to make it happen.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 4th 2007, 03:34 AM
Death is the ultimate healing??? What Bible are you people reading?! Our blessed hope is no more body? Sounds like a gnostic "gospel" to me... Our blessed hope is the resurrection, which was inaugurated by Jesus' resurrection! Listen, death is anti-Jesus, because Jesus is Life. Death is destroyed, therefore it is God's enemy. Death and sickness are from the fall, and not God's will. Why did Jesus go out of His way to raise the widow's son back to life if death is God's will? Never did Jesus teach that sickness and death are precious gifts from His Father. If you think such things, you are in allegiance with the anti-kingdom, because God's kingdom brings restoration, and does not reconcile itself with its enemies. Death is the last enemy that is destroyed. Something is seriously wrong with your theology if you believe that suffering, sickness, and death are God's will and are good things for us. - Lk.11

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2007, 04:18 AM
I got to agree that this whole "death is a good thing" doctrine really doesn't make much sense to me when comparing it with the Word. The Lord is going to destroy death for a reason, and it isn't because He likes it.

I do believe that the Lord can chasten us at times with sickness (1 Corinthians 11:30-32), but this is our own doing. It's because of our disobedience that we are in need of correction. I also believe that if it is chastening the Lord has no problem letting us know why we are being chastened.

Mograce2U
Dec 4th 2007, 04:23 AM
I got to agree that this whole "death is a good thing" doctrine really doesn't make much sense to me when comparing it with the Word. The Lord is going to destroy death for a reason, and it isn't because He likes it.

I do believe that the Lord can chasten us at times with sickness (1 Corinthians 11:30-32), but this is our own doing. It's because of our disobedience that we are in need of correction. I also believe that if it is chastening the Lord has no problem letting us know why we are being chastened.And yet some died as a result...

(1 Cor 11:30 KJV) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

threebigrocks
Dec 4th 2007, 04:40 AM
Death is the ultimate healing??? What Bible are you people reading?! Our blessed hope is no more body? Sounds like a gnostic "gospel" to me... Our blessed hope is the resurrection, which was inaugurated by Jesus' resurrection! Listen, death is anti-Jesus, because Jesus is Life. Death is destroyed, therefore it is God's enemy. Death and sickness are from the fall, and not God's will. Why did Jesus go out of His way to raise the widow's son back to life if death is God's will? Never did Jesus teach that sickness and death are precious gifts from His Father. If you think such things, you are in allegiance with the anti-kingdom, because God's kingdom brings restoration, and does not reconcile itself with its enemies. Death is the last enemy that is destroyed. Something is seriously wrong with your theology if you believe that suffering, sickness, and death are God's will and are good things for us. - Lk.11


2 Corinthians 5


1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
7for we walk by faith, not by sight--
8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


Now, we dwell in a tent - our earthly bodies which can be torn down easily. We long to be out of our flesh which does wind up diseased, in pain, tempted, and beaten. It keeps us in a sinful world. It is our flesh in which we cannot be in AND at the same time be with the Lord. It's impossible. It's one OR the other.

REvelation 21


3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


All things new, no longer any death, second death - these all tell us that there was death, that it will be no longer and there is a first death (the one all experience - end of life here) because here we have a second death. Can't have a second without a first.

I assure you, you will not live forever in the body you have. The flesh you have now is corruptable, it is temporal, sinful and mortal. It's time will end. Death we are not to fear, for it is the way we depart from this world and go to be with the Lord. It's the second death we are warned about - hell and the Lake of Fire.

As khatar said, death is a healing. We are free from these corruptable bodies which can indeed draw us into the second death while we exist in this world. To be healed from sin and be eternal, made new, is indeed a healing.

threebigrocks
Dec 4th 2007, 04:44 AM
And yet some died as a result...

(1 Cor 11:30 KJV) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

I Corinthians 11



28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.



They sleep because they do not judge the body rightly. These people are weak and sick and asleep spiritually, not physically.

Kahtar
Dec 4th 2007, 05:52 AM
If you think such things, you are in allegiance with the anti-kingdom.................Something is seriously wrong with your theology..............One and only warning. This type of stuff is againt the rules. Find a way to communicate without bashing and judging. Disagree all you want, but keep the personal jabs and judgmental stuff to yourself.

Sherrie
Dec 4th 2007, 07:19 AM
Does this mean if I become a really strong christian I can heal people by touching them?


Bassplayerchick.......I do not believe you ned a certain period of time before you can do any Spiritual Gift. It is your faith in God, and your intimate relationship with Him. There are people who have been saved for years and do not have an intimate relationship with the Lord. Then there are those who have been only saved for a short period of time, and their walk with the Lord, has become very intimate and mature.

Also I believe that you can have one gift at a certain period of time, to do God's business, and then when that has been full-filled, You may no longer need to have that gift. You may sometime in your life receive another gift, or receive more than one gift at a time.


I disagree with this stance. I've known many people who truly, sincerely had faith in God healing someone who was sick. I had a friend who had cancer. He, his family, and the church had faith in God for his healing. The healing never came, and he died.

markedward...God's plan is not always according to the way we want it. The healing was according to God's will; and it is possible God's healing was there. This man no longer suffer's with the things of this world, but instead he rest in Jesus.

hootinannie
Dec 4th 2007, 08:34 AM
I'm not taking a position here, since I'm not following the thread carefully, but I wonder....those of you who think death is only a bad thing, what do you do with Psalms 116:15?

15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

Just curious.

Hoot

brakelite
Dec 4th 2007, 09:16 AM
Absolutely. God is sovereign, and brings about His will - not necessarily our demands.

Yep, I agree. And sometimes the healing doesn't necessitate miraculous power either. Often we are suffering as a result of a poor diet, bad decisions, inappropriate lifestyle. God is not going to work a miracle if our bad health is simply our own fault. God is far more likely to direct our attention to some necessary lifestyle changes (eg diet) which will result in our healing.

God bless
Brakelite

NavyFirefighter
Dec 4th 2007, 12:50 PM
Concerning healing: Is it God's will that anyone become sick? Does God partner with death? Does God have a "revealed" will and a "secret" will? Did Jesus ever tell someone that they were sick for a reason, and turn them away? Did He ever tell them that by their momentary light affliction God was working in them an eternal weight of glory? Didn't Jesus heal everyone that came to Him? Why do we make up false doctrines to hide our laziness and fallenness? Why can't we just admit that God doesn't heal through us because we don't have compassion on the sick, nor do we have faith or hope (true Biblical hope; not wishing)? Wouldn't God love it if we were just real with Him?

A-MAN, A-MAN!!!
Think of it like this, if God is trying to teach you something by making you sick, why would you take medicine to cure it? That would be disobedience.
If God is getting glory from someone having the flew or a cold, how much glory is he getting from that? How would you measure that? If you could put a measure on it and the flew got God a gallon of glory, how much glory would He get from cancer? If someone is sick and God is getting any glory from it, why don't they just pray for cancer or something of the like? Dosn't make any since does it? Neither does the statement that God might get any glory from somone being sick with something minor.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2007, 02:09 PM
I Corinthians 11



They sleep because they do not judge the body rightly. These people are weak and sick and asleep spiritually, not physically.

You believe God's judgment is to make us sick, weak or asleep spiritually? Why do you believe this?

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2007, 02:15 PM
I also want to clarify what I stated previously. I do not believe that the death of our sinful flesh is a bad thing. I simply believe death, in and of itself, is something that the Lord does not like and it's something that He wants to be destroyed permanently. It is the last enemy spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15 after all.

Mograce2U
Dec 4th 2007, 04:37 PM
I Corinthians 11

28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

They sleep because they do not judge the body rightly. These people are weak and sick and asleep spiritually, not physically.

(1 Cor 11:32 KJV) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

It seems the discernment they lack is concerning the holy things of the Lord which in context is revealed by how they partake at the Lord's Table. The afflictions that come upon those who fail to make this distinction is the chastening of the Lord - and it is physical, because it is thru that chastening that a spiritual benefit can come - like hopefully repentance. If however they fail to repent, an early death may come so that sin will not be to their condemnation.

Else why does Paul also say to turn the unrepentant brother over to Satan to destroy his flesh? If affliction works repentance then the brother is to be restored to fellowship, otherwise death will take its toll.

Which is not to say that every saint who suffers illness is being chastised, but if we are to examine & judge ourselves in those times, then it is to see if we have anything to repent of - is it not?

Kahtar
Dec 4th 2007, 04:44 PM
I'm wondering if the OP has her questions answered yet?

threebigrocks
Dec 4th 2007, 08:22 PM
You believe God's judgment is to make us sick, weak or asleep spiritually? Why do you believe this?

God does not make us sick spiritually. If we are sick spiritually then that is of our own doing, not God's.

If we are sick spiritually, we must return to the ways of the Lord. Without doing so God cannot use us to do things in His name and within His will such as healing another.

God's judgement is far heavier then our own neglect of faith.

nightmare
Dec 4th 2007, 08:22 PM
you cannot do anything true healing comes from God maybe if you study hard enough a learn what God wants you to learn he might use you to heal others we have no power but what God gives us

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2007, 08:49 PM
God does not make us sick spiritually. If we are sick spiritually then that is of our own doing, not God's.

However, the judgment and chastening that follows in 1 Corinthians 11 is from the Lord. Those passages specifically state that, so if you believe it is spiritual when it speaks of those Corinthians being weak, sick and asleep, then you are saying that it is God that has brought this chastening upon them. That's what this passage is about. It's about God chastening the Corinthians because they did not judge themselves.

1 Corinthians 11:29-32
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

threebigrocks
Dec 4th 2007, 09:29 PM
It is our concience that brings us judgement while we are still here in this world. We are to judge ourselves as to weather we are inline with the will of God. If we are not, yes the Spirit will speak to us and hopefully (otherwise we are sick and asleep) we will hear and heed His voice when He speaks to our concience and hightens our discernment - to tell right from wrong and we can thusly change our ways BEFORE final judgement is handed to us by God so that we will not be judged as the followers of the world are and deemed unworthy.

That whole thing of self examination and changing ones ways to better suit and please the Lord is sanctification. We understand the hope and the promise and we wish to continue to work toward that.


As it says in Romans - The law increased and sin increased because of that, but grace increased all the more. Our own unworthiness ought to raise our knowledge of our right and wrong actions. If not - we are not discerning what it is to be of the Lord's body - the church. We are our own worst enemy and in the same breath that part of us ought to become a light to steer us from those actions because we know they are there to keep us from becoming sick and from falling asleep.

On that note - if you wish to carry on with this in another thread I'm happy to do so as I am able to be here. I think it's been sidetracked enough. ;)

Nihil Obstat
Dec 4th 2007, 11:19 PM
One and only warning. This type of stuff is againt the rules. Find a way to communicate without bashing and judging. Disagree all you want, but keep the personal jabs and judgmental stuff to yourself.

I wasn't bashing, judging, or jabbing... By "anti-kingdom" and "allegiance", I didn't mean that you weren't saved or were "a thorn in the body's flesh" or anything of that nature. By it I meant that to believe such things is contradictory to the hope that we were given by Jesus' resurrection, and results in confusion and even anti-hope.

Simply put, just because death "is" doesn't mean that it's God's will. Hell "is" and it's not His will that anyone be sent there (Eze. 18:23, 32; Matt. 25:41; 1 Tim. 2:4; 1 John 2:2), yet people are of their own free will (this is the mystery of iniquity). Both death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14). Death, sorrow, crying, and pain are not God's will, which is why there will be no more of that when His kingdom comes in fullness (Rev. 21:3-5).

Death, therefore, cannot be said to be an "escape", because to say such a thing would be a semi-gnostic doctrine, which most all of the NT books are warning and teaching against, because it is anti-gospel. We're seeing Gnosticism return in our day, because it was never fully rooted out of the church, and has diseased most everyone's theology (don't hear me wrongly - I am not above this). We must become built up against Gnosticism, because it will (and is) undoubtedly show itself again before this is all over.

Gnostics teach that all matter is evil, and that the spirit realm is good, and that the goal of man is to leave this evil earth by freeing their inner star from this prison of a body. The Bible gives a much different message, as Jesus took on flesh, died for humans, was risen with a perfected body (not a different one - His tomb was empty), and since then has been restoring the earth for His Father's coming to earth.

This is what I meant by "anti-hope", because our hope in the resurrection and in the restoration must be in violent opposition to the ways of this present evil age (Rom. 12:1-2). The pain we experience from the reality that death "is" and suffering "is" should not be medicated by being brought under the banner of "realism", but rather we should be thankful for that pain, because it testifies to us that the ways of this world are not God's will!

It is God's will that you experience the pain He feels for broken and fallen creation, that we would truly have compassion and intercede with Him! Yes, death and sickness happens, but we should never give a "theological" answer for why and then simply accept it as our lot. No! - instead, hope refuses to accept the world's ways, and calls into the present the future kingdom to come, thereby establishing the kingdom of God, hastening its coming.

Hope cannot reconcile itself to God's enemies, otherwise it is not hope, but anti-hope; despair or presumption. And faith is the substance of things hoped for, meaning, what you put your hope in will birth in you faith for that hoped-for truth! If your hope is escape via death, then where does your faith lie? In death? But our faith is in the one resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who is coming again to earth! This is our blessed hope! (Wow, can you tell I've been reading Moltmann again?) - Lk.11

Kahtar
Dec 5th 2007, 12:02 AM
Thank you for clarifying what you were saying. It is so easy to misunderstand on here. We have to choose our words carefully, and go back and read what we wrote again before we hit the submit button to make sure it doesn't come off the wrong way.
Adding those smiley things helps a good bit to get your general attitude across. Since we do not have the benefit of hearing your tone or seeing your body language, the smileys are the next best thing.;)

bjones
Dec 5th 2007, 01:12 AM
Heb 5.8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

When we suffer:
1. We are reminded of the consequence of sin.
2. We give thanks for the suffering....

oops didn't do that?
2. We react sinfully by blaming God for our suffering or by thinking He has forgotten about us. Or We react egotistically thinking that we are too good for this.

3. We recognize our sinful condition, not just our sinful acts, and repent by acknowledging that God works out all things for His glory and our good. Or we are humbled.

4. We draw closer to God because a layer of sinfulness has been removed.

5. We return to # 2 and give thanks that the suffering revealed sin in us and gave us the opportunity to draw closer to God.

We will be unclean until the evening when Christ removes these bodies of sin and death and makes us like Him.

Flutecrafter
Dec 5th 2007, 03:53 AM
Your a witch huh? That's cool. my best friend is a wiccan.

Former witch actually.


She says I am welcome in her coven (sp?) if I so choose and I can still worship god and read the bible without it being wrong. To repect the earth and follow the wiccan law of harming none are all I need to do to be good in a wiccan's eyes. She is one of the nicest people I ever met!

I don't doubt that she is a nice person at all. many on the magic paths are indeed nice people.
Unfortunately for them, they are being led astray.

It is wrong in God's eyes for you to participate in a coven though. This is because they are not worshiping Him, but other gods.

now. something for you to understand, respecting the earth should be the way those that follow Jesus behave.
and the Rede is superceded by this:
Matthew 22:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

mark

Nihil Obstat
Dec 5th 2007, 04:52 PM
Thank you for clarifying what you were saying. It is so easy to misunderstand on here. ... Adding those smiley things helps a good bit to get your general attitude across.

Yeah, I've been feeling like I ought to start using those emoticons... but do you see where I'm coming from?

Mograce2U
Dec 5th 2007, 07:20 PM
I wasn't bashing, judging, or jabbing... By "anti-kingdom" and "allegiance", I didn't mean that you weren't saved or were "a thorn in the body's flesh" or anything of that nature. By it I meant that to believe such things is contradictory to the hope that we were given by Jesus' resurrection, and results in confusion and even anti-hope.

Simply put, just because death "is" doesn't mean that it's God's will. Hell "is" and it's not His will that anyone be sent there (Eze. 18:23, 32; Matt. 25:41; 1 Tim. 2:4; 1 John 2:2), yet people are of their own free will (this is the mystery of iniquity). Both death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14). Death, sorrow, crying, and pain are not God's will, which is why there will be no more of that when His kingdom comes in fullness (Rev. 21:3-5).

Death, therefore, cannot be said to be an "escape", because to say such a thing would be a semi-gnostic doctrine, which most all of the NT books are warning and teaching against, because it is anti-gospel. We're seeing Gnosticism return in our day, because it was never fully rooted out of the church, and has diseased most everyone's theology (don't hear me wrongly - I am not above this). We must become built up against Gnosticism, because it will (and is) undoubtedly show itself again before this is all over.

Gnostics teach that all matter is evil, and that the spirit realm is good, and that the goal of man is to leave this evil earth by freeing their inner star from this prison of a body. The Bible gives a much different message, as Jesus took on flesh, died for humans, was risen with a perfected body (not a different one - His tomb was empty), and since then has been restoring the earth for His Father's coming to earth.

This is what I meant by "anti-hope", because our hope in the resurrection and in the restoration must be in violent opposition to the ways of this present evil age (Rom. 12:1-2). The pain we experience from the reality that death "is" and suffering "is" should not be medicated by being brought under the banner of "realism", but rather we should be thankful for that pain, because it testifies to us that the ways of this world are not God's will!

It is God's will that you experience the pain He feels for broken and fallen creation, that we would truly have compassion and intercede with Him! Yes, death and sickness happens, but we should never give a "theological" answer for why and then simply accept it as our lot. No! - instead, hope refuses to accept the world's ways, and calls into the present the future kingdom to come, thereby establishing the kingdom of God, hastening its coming.

Hope cannot reconcile itself to God's enemies, otherwise it is not hope, but anti-hope; despair or presumption. And faith is the substance of things hoped for, meaning, what you put your hope in will birth in you faith for that hoped-for truth! If your hope is escape via death, then where does your faith lie? In death? But our faith is in the one resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who is coming again to earth! This is our blessed hope! (Wow, can you tell I've been reading Moltmann again?) - Lk.11I broke your post up into paragraphs so I could read it better. I do see what you are saying and find I agree. But want to add that I have not looked upon death as a means to escape this world - that would be suicidal not hope. But death is the entrance we must pass thru to have Life, therefore we have no fear in death or any tribulation we may find ourselves in. Because of our resurrection hope in Christ, we have boldness to come before His throne to receive mercy and find the help we need. This is the way that the world has no knowledge of and so they despair because of their fear of death. Which is why we share our Hope with them!

And because we know He hears our prayers and answers them according to His will so that we may have the thing we need. Therefore we should expect miracles if this is the call we have been given!

Bassplayerchick
Dec 6th 2007, 03:14 AM
now. something for you to understand, respecting the earth should be the way those that follow Jesus behave.
and the Rede is superceded by this:
Matthew 22:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

mark

Why does the rede make more sence to me then? :confused

Flutecrafter
Dec 6th 2007, 05:05 AM
Why does the rede make more sence to me then? :confused
Perhaps because it is more geared towards our human nature.. :)

what about those verses doesn't make sense to you ma'am?

mark

hootinannie
Dec 6th 2007, 08:24 AM
Why does the rede make more sence to me then? :confused

Because the Rede is understood by the natural mind. Until you give your life to Jesus, your spiritual understanding is "darkened" and you are not ABLE to understand spiritual things because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 2:14
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned .
NIV

When you receive Jesus as your savior, then He puts within you His Spirit, and the Spirit of God will open your understanding so that you can understand things of God.

Before Jesus went to the cross, He was talking to His disciples and telling them that He was going to die, and that He would rise again and go to His Father in Heaven. He told them that when He got there, He would send them "The Comforter"....here's what He said:

John 16:12-15
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth . He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
NIV

So when you surrender your life to Jesus and ask Him into your heart and life, He brings the Holy Spirit, who is the comforter and teacher, and the Holy Spirit will open your understanding so that you can understand the things of God. To approach the Bible with a mind that hasn't been opened by the Holy Spirit can be an exercise in futility because without the Spirit of God dwelling inside you, you cannot understand it properly.

But God WANTS you to understand His Word. When a person is a new Christian, they don't get ALL understanding all at once. But as they talk to Jesus and ask Him questions, and read His Word, by His Spirit He will give them answers. God speaks in many different ways. Knowing and recognizing His voice comes with listening and with practice.

Man's way of approaching the things of God is that he wants to SEE it FIRST, and THEN he'll believe it. But if you want to know God, you must do things GOD'S way, and GOD'S way is to BELIEVE it FIRST, and THEN you will SEE it....that's called FAITH, and it's one of THE most important things in a life of knowing God. I said that because you say you are asking God for a sign, and then you will believe. That is typical of human thinking, but it's not the way to God. The way to God is to make the decision to believe, and based on that believing (faith), you give your life to Him, and then He will show you that you made the right decision....and there are many different ways He does that. He will use the right way for YOU, since we are all different.

God loves you very much and wants you to love Him back, but He won't force you...He COULD, but He won't, because unlike satan, God doesn't want slaves, He wants people who love Him and serve Him because they WANT to.

In His love,
Hoot

Bassplayerchick
Dec 7th 2007, 12:05 AM
Perhaps because it is more geared towards our human nature.. :)

what about those verses doesn't make sense to you ma'am?

mark

Ye olde english is hard to understand
Many of this does not match how I percive things
It is not straight foward
ALot of it seems like it's missrepresented.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 7th 2007, 04:37 PM
The fact is, these flesh and blood bodies are destined to return to the dust from which they came, a fact clearly spoken of in God's Word. ... Frankly, I will be glad to be rid of this corrupt, weak, and failing corpse with all it's pains and needs, and receive my brand new one.

Our bodies were not destined to return to dust, they were cursed with having to return to dust. Our bodies are not bad things - Jesus took on a human body! And when He was resurrected, His grave was empty - His "corrupt, weak, and failing corpse" did not remain in the grave after His resurrection, but was revived, renewed, restored, and made immortal! Do not be glad to rid yourself of your body - it is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit that rose Christ from the grave will raise your body from the grave as well! This is the Christian hope.

Sin does not reside in your flesh, and yet somehow not in your spirit and soul; in other words, your spirit is not better than your flesh. (You are a whole being, not divided into separate compartments, and therefore, sin affects you holistically, as will the resurrection!) To think such things would be to greatly misunderstand what Paul meant by "flesh and Spirit" in the many places that he spoke with such language. He was not talking about our skin, but the present evil age - he was talking about two warring kingdoms: the anti-kingdom and God's kingdom! Our home is not "up" but "forward"...

- Lk.11

Mograce2U
Dec 7th 2007, 05:21 PM
Our bodies were not destined to return to dust, they were cursed with having to return to dust. Our bodies are not bad things - Jesus took on a human body! And when He was resurrected, His grave was empty - His "corrupt, weak, and failing corpse" did not remain in the grave after His resurrection, but was revived, renewed, restored, and made immortal! Do not be glad to rid yourself of your body - it is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit that rose Christ from the grave will raise your body from the grave as well! This is the Christian hope.

Sin does not reside in your flesh, and yet somehow not in your spirit and soul; in other words, your spirit is not better than your flesh. (You are a whole being, not divided into separate compartments, and therefore, sin affects you holistically, as will the resurrection!) To think such things would be to greatly misunderstand what Paul meant by "flesh and Spirit" in the many places that he spoke with such language. He was not talking about our skin, but the present evil age - he was talking about two warring kingdoms: the anti-kingdom and God's kingdom! Our home is not "up" but "forward"...

- Lk.11The seed that is planted is the one that must die and decay so that the seed of life which God planted in us can become a spiritual body in His hands. Sin therefore dies with the body that it has defiled. Jesus on the other hand knew no sin and His body was like Adam's before the fall - undefiled. Jesus is the only MAN who has ascended into heaven and only His grave is empty. Ours will all be filled with dust from our corruptible bodies. The bodies that we will be clothed upon with, will be ones made without hands. We are going to have bodies like Jesus, whose body was made by God directly - as was Adam's. This is also the temple made without hands which temple we are now, since we house this seed of eternal life that will allow us to pass from death when it comes into life everlasting.

Flutecrafter
Dec 7th 2007, 11:00 PM
Ye olde english is hard to understand
Many of this does not match how I percive things
It is not straight foward
ALot of it seems like it's missrepresented.

LOL


here again the verses I was talking about. :)

Matthew 22:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

the part I left in bold is one of the areas that would relate to similar issues
as the Rede.

let me look for another way of putting it.

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2022&version=31#fen-NIV-23910c)] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

hmm still reads the same to me. :)


Is this the version of the Rede you are familiar with?

[B]Rede of the Wiccae Being known as the counsel of the Wise Ones: Bide the Wiccan Laws ye must In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust.Live aní let live - Fairly take aní fairly give.Cast the Circle thrice about To keep all evil spirits out.To bind the spell every time - Let the spell be spake in rhyme.Soft of eye aní light of touch - Speak little, listen much.Deosil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deosil) go by the waxing Moon - Sing and dance the Wiccan rune.Widdershins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widdershins) go when the Moon doth wane, Aní the Werewolf howls by the dread Wolfsbane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aconitum).When the Ladyís Moon is new, Kiss thy hand to Her times two.When the Moon rides at Her peak Then your heartís desire seek.Heed the Northwindís mighty gale - Lock the door and drop the sail.When the wind comes from the South, Love will kiss thee on the mouth.When the wind blows from the East, Expect the new and set the feast.When the West wind blows oíer thee, Departed spirits restless be.Nine woods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_woods) in the Cauldron go - Burn them quick aní burn them slow.Elder be ye Ladyís tree - Burn it not or cursed yeíll be.When the Wheel begins to turn - Let the Beltane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane) fires burn.When the Wheel has turned a Yule, Light the Log aní let Pan rule.Heed ye flower bush aní tree - By the Lady BlessŤd Be.Where the rippling waters go Cast a stone aní truth yeíll know.When ye have need, Hearken not to others greed.With the fool no season spend Or be counted as his friend.Merry meet aní merry part - Bright the cheeks aní warm the heart.Mind the Threefold Law ye should - Three times bad aní three times good.When misfortune is enow, Wear the Blue Star on thy brow.True in love ever be Unless thy loverís false to thee.Eight words ye Wiccan Rede fulfill - Aní it harm none, Do what ye will.


or was it only the phrase at the end?
just curious.

mark

hootinannie
Dec 8th 2007, 12:31 AM
THIS supposedly makes MORE SENSE than the Bible?????????????????


Rede of the Wiccae Being known as the counsel of the Wise Ones: Bide the Wiccan Laws ye must In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust.Live aní let live - Fairly take aní fairly give.Cast the Circle thrice about To keep all evil spirits out.To bind the spell every time - Let the spell be spake in rhyme.Soft of eye aní light of touch - Speak little, listen much.Deosil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deosil) go by the waxing Moon - Sing and dance the Wiccan rune.Widdershins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widdershins) go when the Moon doth wane, Aní the Werewolf howls by the dread Wolfsbane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aconitum).When the Ladyís Moon is new, Kiss thy hand to Her times two.When the Moon rides at Her peak Then your heartís desire seek.Heed the Northwindís mighty gale - Lock the door and drop the sail.When the wind comes from the South, Love will kiss thee on the mouth.When the wind blows from the East, Expect the new and set the feast.When the West wind blows oíer thee, Departed spirits restless be.Nine woods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_woods) in the Cauldron go - Burn them quick aní burn them slow.Elder be ye Ladyís tree - Burn it not or cursed yeíll be.When the Wheel begins to turn - Let the Beltane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane) fires burn.When the Wheel has turned a Yule, Light the Log aní let Pan rule.Heed ye flower bush aní tree - By the Lady BlessŤd Be.Where the rippling waters go Cast a stone aní truth yeíll know.When ye have need, Hearken not to others greed.With the fool no season spend Or be counted as his friend.Merry meet aní merry part - Bright the cheeks aní warm the heart.Mind the Threefold Law ye should - Three times bad aní three times good.When misfortune is enow, Wear the Blue Star on thy brow.True in love ever be Unless thy loverís false to thee.Eight words ye Wiccan Rede fulfill - Aní it harm none, Do what ye will.

I don't think so.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 8th 2007, 01:21 AM
I am really enjoying this conversation!


The seed that is planted is the one that must die and decay so that the seed of life which God planted in us can become a spiritual body in His hands.

What is Paul talking about when he says, "what you sow is not made alive unless it dies" (1 Cor. 15:36)? He is not talking about his fleshly body dying, but rather dying daily (v.31-34). And by dying daily, he is talking about being faithful in ushering in the kingdom of God daily, which is righteousness. This has nothing to do necessarily with physical death. And by saying that the seed we sow "is sown a natural body, [and] it is raised a spiritual body" (v.44), by "spiritual" he does not mean "without flesh", but rather is contrasting two opposing kingdoms: the kingdom of this present evil age (the natural, or the flesh), and the kingdom of God (the Spirit).


Sin therefore dies with the body that it has defiled.

No. You are already dead to all of your sin. Two thousand years ago when Christ was crucified, you were crucified with Him. And when He rose again, you rose with Him (Col. 2:9-14). This is why Paul says to "reckon (do the math) yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). You who abide in Christ are literally Christ's body! Your old man died on that cross, and your new man is sinless. This is why he follows that up by saying, "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body" (v.12), because when you died on that cross with Jesus by faith, you were taken from the kingdom of the flesh and brought into the kingdom of God. This is why Paul uses "kingdom" language all throughout all of his letters (Jesus spoke exactly the same way). Your new man is a prophetic signpost for all the world that God's kingdom has come and will one day come in its fullness.


Jesus on the other hand knew no sin and His body was like Adam's before the fall - undefiled. Jesus is the only MAN who has ascended into heaven and only His grave is empty. Ours will all be filled with dust from our corruptible bodies.

Yes, only His grave is empty now, but one day all graves will be emptied of their bodies, bones, and dust! Your body is made spotless now by the blood of the Lamb; you don't have to wait for a "new one" in order to live differently. The curse has been broken in your life... This is what Peter spoke of in Acts 2:29, 34, saying that no flesh (of those in Christ) will see corruption!


The bodies that we will be clothed upon with, will be ones made without hands. We are going to have bodies like Jesus, whose body was made by God directly - as was Adam's.

All of us were formed in our mother's wombs by God - even the wicked... so I'm confused by what you mean here.


This is also the temple made without hands which temple we are now, since we house this seed of eternal life that will allow us to pass from death when it comes into life everlasting.

We have already entered into life everlasting; that's my point. You can work miracles because you are of God's kingdom. You can prophesy and speak / pray in tongues and heal because you are of God's kingdom. You have the inter-indwelling Holy Spirit because you are of God's kingdom! You are of His kingdom now, and not just when you receive your glorified body. You are sowing your seed now in preparation, because the one resurrection has already begun - Christ alone was the firstfruits, and when the next harvest comes (at His second coming), you will be reaped by Him!

It will be your body that is changed - you will not be given a different body. How can that even make sense with 1 Cor. 15:51? - will all those who are "alive and remain" (1 Thess. 4:15) split open like a caterpillar's cocoon to release the "butterfly" (spirit) within? I tell you, that's Gnosticism, and a false gospel, one that Paul called all who preach it [I]anathema (Gal. 1:6-9). I am not saying that you're doing any such thing, but rather that because Gnosticism was never fully rooted out of the church, their teachings have negatively influenced our theology, and we don't even know it!

We need to gird ourselves against such a demonic doctrine, because the Gnostics are coming back in our day, and will be a major problem in the church just before Christ returns, as Paul prophesied (1 Tim. 4:1-3). This is one of the main reasons why I'm hitting this point so hard... it's one of the many signs of the times, and we need to prepare ourselves, our families, and the church for what is coming and is truly at the door.

Blessings! - Lk.11

hootinannie
Dec 8th 2007, 02:38 AM
This really is a good conversation, and I'm enjoying reading it too. Unfortunately, it's off topic for what the OP intended. I wonder if we could move just this part of the thread to another thread or if you need to start another thread. Don't stop the conversation, but maybe it would be better to do it on another thread? What do you think?

Hoot



I am really enjoying this conversation!



What is Paul talking about when he says, "what you sow is not made alive unless it dies" (1 Cor. 15:36)? He is not talking about his fleshly body dying, but rather dying daily (v.31-34). And by dying daily, he is talking about being faithful in ushering in the kingdom of God daily, which is righteousness. This has nothing to do necessarily with physical death. And by saying that the seed we sow "is sown a natural body, [and] it is raised a spiritual body" (v.44), by "spiritual" he does not mean "without flesh", but rather is contrasting two opposing kingdoms: the kingdom of this present evil age (the natural, or the flesh), and the kingdom of God (the Spirit).



No. You are already dead to all of your sin. Two thousand years ago when Christ was crucified, you were crucified with Him. And when He rose again, you rose with Him (Col. 2:9-14). This is why Paul says to "reckon (do the math) yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). You who abide in Christ are literally Christ's body! Your old man died on that cross, and your new man is sinless. This is why he follows that up by saying, "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body" (v.12), because when you died on that cross with Jesus by faith, you were taken from the kingdom of the flesh and brought into the kingdom of God. This is why Paul uses "kingdom" language all throughout all of his letters (Jesus spoke exactly the same way). Your new man is a prophetic signpost for all the world that God's kingdom has come and will one day come in its fullness.



Yes, only His grave is empty now, but one day all graves will be emptied of their bodies, bones, and dust! Your body is made spotless now by the blood of the Lamb; you don't have to wait for a "new one" in order to live differently. The curse has been broken in your life... This is what Peter spoke of in Acts 2:29, 34, saying that no flesh (of those in Christ) will see corruption!



All of us were formed in our mother's wombs by God - even the wicked... so I'm confused by what you mean here.



We have already entered into life everlasting; that's my point. You can work miracles because you are of God's kingdom. You can prophesy and speak / pray in tongues and heal because you are of God's kingdom. You have the inter-indwelling Holy Spirit because you of God's kingdom! You are of His kingdom now, and not just when you receive your glorified body. You are sowing your seed now in preparation, because the one resurrection has already begun - Christ alone was the firstfruits, and when the next harvest comes (at His second coming), you will be reaped by Him!

It will be your body that is changed - you will not be given a different body. How can that even make sense with 1 Cor. 15:51? - will all those who are "alive and remain" (1 Thess. 4:15) split open like a caterpillar's cocoon to release the "butterfly" (spirit) within? I tell you, that's Gnosticism, and a false gospel, one that Paul called all who preach it [I]anathema (Gal. 1:6-9). I am not saying that you're doing any such thing, but rather that because Gnosticism was never fully rooted out of the church, their teachings have negatively influenced our theology, and we don't even know it!

We need to gird ourselves against such a demonic doctrine, because the Gnostics are coming back in our day, and will be a major problem in the church just before Christ returns, as Paul prophesied (1 Tim. 4:1-3). This is one of the main reasons why I'm hitting this point so hard... it's one of the many signs of the times, and we need to prepare ourselves, our families, and the church for what is coming and truly at the door.

Blessings! - Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Dec 8th 2007, 03:52 AM
Though I agree with you that what I'm bringing isn't exactly what the OP was asking, these things need to be addressed before one can decidedly say whether healing is for today or not, and whether God's will is that all people be healed today or not...

Flutecrafter
Dec 8th 2007, 04:21 AM
THIS supposedly makes MORE SENSE than the Bible?????????????????



I don't think so.easy now.. :)

I suspect Bassplayerchick was only familiar with the last line summation of the Rede, rather than the whole thing.

mark

Mograce2U
Dec 8th 2007, 04:41 AM
Flutecrafter,


- An’ it harm none, Do what ye will.

or was it only the phrase at the end?
just curious.As in "Do what you will and pay for it?"

Solomon addressed that one!

kjw47
Dec 8th 2007, 09:18 PM
"And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18

Does this mean if I become a really strong christian I can heal people by touching them?

Another thing that confuses me is the fact that the word of god is described as a sword. Why should I use it as a sword? (weapon)
Hi Friend, Gods word says that it is sharper than any two edged sword. There are many pleasing things in Gods word, but there are truths ( Gods truth ) that people dont want to hear because it cuts them to the core persay. For example Gods view of who is wicked ( devils child ) differs from mosts viewpoint. Almost everyone believes that their sin is forgiven everytime, if they ask forgiveness. But Gods view on the matter is much different 1 John 3-- also Jesus view Matthew 7: 21-23-- I guess that is why Jesus taught us that -- Man doesnt live by bread alone, but by every utterance from God. He meant 24/7-- Takes alot of hard study to learn every utterance, and apply these things. Jesus is speaking to christians that were told they were saved at Matt 7. By holding back the two edged sword part of Gods word, this can cost lives.

Bassplayerchick
Dec 8th 2007, 10:23 PM
Rede of the Wiccae Being known as the counsel of the Wise Ones: Bide the Wiccan Laws ye must In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust.Live aní let live - Fairly take aní fairly give.Cast the Circle thrice about To keep all evil spirits out.To bind the spell every time - Let the spell be spake in rhyme.Soft of eye aní light of touch - Speak little, listen much.Deosil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deosil) go by the waxing Moon - Sing and dance the Wiccan rune.Widdershins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widdershins) go when the Moon doth wane, Aní the Werewolf howls by the dread Wolfsbane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aconitum).When the Ladyís Moon is new, Kiss thy hand to Her times two.When the Moon rides at Her peak Then your heartís desire seek.Heed the Northwindís mighty gale - Lock the door and drop the sail.When the wind comes from the South, Love will kiss thee on the mouth.When the wind blows from the East, Expect the new and set the feast.When the West wind blows oíer thee, Departed spirits restless be.Nine woods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_woods) in the Cauldron go - Burn them quick aní burn them slow.Elder be ye Ladyís tree - Burn it not or cursed yeíll be.When the Wheel begins to turn - Let the Beltane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane) fires burn.When the Wheel has turned a Yule, Light the Log aní let Pan rule.Heed ye flower bush aní tree - By the Lady BlessŤd Be.Where the rippling waters go Cast a stone aní truth yeíll know.When ye have need, Hearken not to others greed.With the fool no season spend Or be counted as his friend.Merry meet aní merry part - Bright the cheeks aní warm the heart.Mind the Threefold Law ye should - Three times bad aní three times good.When misfortune is enow, Wear the Blue Star on thy brow.True in love ever be Unless thy loverís false to thee.Eight words ye Wiccan Rede fulfill - Aní it harm none, Do what ye will.

Yes, that's the one. The version I read had the old english taken out.

The first time I read it it clicked. It was the first and only time in my life had I ever had tears roll down my cheeks for someting beautiful.

threebigrocks
Dec 9th 2007, 05:47 PM
Yes, that's the one. The version I read had the old english taken out.

The first time I read it it clicked. It was the first and only time in my life had I ever had tears roll down my cheeks for someting beautiful.

Who made the moon and set it where it is to move as it does? Who causes the wind to blow? Who made the tree? Who made the waters and placed them where they are? By whose strength do we resist the greedy and the fool? How do we know what is greed and foolish? Who loved us first to define love?

All the things that excerpt tells us to do, and if we do don't worry, has nothing to do with eternity. It's pleasing the earth and the powers therein. It's not pleasing Him who made them in the first place nor giving credit where it's due.

Lots of questions to ask within that.

Flutecrafter
Dec 9th 2007, 09:27 PM
Yes, that's the one. The version I read had the old english taken out.

The first time I read it it clicked. It was the first and only time in my life had I ever had tears roll down my cheeks for someting beautiful.sorry, but I don't find anything about worshiping a critter to be beautiful.. just something to think upon.

there are some good principles in it, but you would find the good addressed
quite well in the scriptures.

ttyl
mark