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Jack Frost
Dec 4th 2007, 05:41 AM
Judas was picked by Jesus knowing that he'd do what he did and even told him and everyone that he'd "betray" him. Jesus picked Judas for a reason not by chance. The other disciples would've never done what Jesus wanted to happen which was show everyone what it really means to give up everything you have for love and good. It even shows Judas' selflessness because he did what was supposed to happen thus making the majority of Christians think negatively about him, but he didn't care because he knew it would help tons of people. Jesus said sacrificing yourself for others is a good thing and Jesus and Judas showed what it really means to sacrifice yourself for people.

Soj
Dec 4th 2007, 05:53 AM
Judas was picked by Jesus knowing that he'd do what he did and even told him and everyone that he'd "betray" him. Jesus picked Judas for a reason not by chance. The other disciples would've never done what Jesus wanted to happen which was show everyone what it really means to give up everything you have for love and good. It even shows Judas' selflessness because he did what was supposed to happen thus making the majority of Christians think negatively about him, but he didn't care because he knew it would help tons of people. Jesus said sacrificing yourself for others is a good thing and Jesus and Judas showed what it really means to sacrifice yourself for people.So Jack, are you one of those who believe that Judas had a second chance and is in heaven now, since he was hand picked by Jesus to betray Him?

Isaac-Saxon
Dec 4th 2007, 05:57 AM
So Jack, are you one of those who believe that Judas had a second chance and is in heaven now, since he was hand picked by Jesus to betray Him?

Do you think Judas is in hell and you have a right to judge souls ? :hmm:

DaveS
Dec 4th 2007, 06:14 AM
Ac 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

This is the passage that Peter (above) applies to Judas...

Ps 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
6 ¶ Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.
20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.

Judas was the "adversary" of Christ according to Christ's own words in this prophetic Psalm. To say that Judas and Christ worked (and sacrificed themselves) together is...

Well, I'll let the Lord decide what it is.

Jack Frost
Dec 4th 2007, 06:24 AM
Or thats how you want to take it because it doesn't say Judas you just think it implys that it does. If you want to think negativly then thats fine.

DaveS
Dec 4th 2007, 06:29 AM
But it does say Judas.

Ac 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before CONCERNING JUDAS, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Peter is clear that the Psalm refers directly to him.

You're on the wrong path here, friend.

Soj
Dec 4th 2007, 06:35 AM
Do you think Judas is in hell and you have a right to judge souls ? :hmm:Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying! :rolleyes:

Jack Frost
Dec 4th 2007, 06:35 AM
But it does say Judas.


Peter is clear that the Psalm refers directly to him.

You're on the wrong path here, friend.

Or thats Peters opinion unless Peter's God and he knows all. Didn't Judas hang himself? Looks like he didn't even know how he died.

Soj
Dec 4th 2007, 06:38 AM
Or thats Peters opinion unless Peter's God and he knows all.God was speaking through Peter, that's how God wrote the Bible. The Holy Spirit inspired Peter to write those words, they are the true words of God and far more authoritative than any words or opinions any of us have on this matter.

Jack Frost
Dec 4th 2007, 06:42 AM
Well then why doesn't God know how he died?

Soj
Dec 4th 2007, 07:20 AM
Well then why doesn't God know how he died?God does know though.

Diggindeeper
Dec 4th 2007, 07:26 AM
Judas did not give his life for anyone. He died because he could not bear the guilt.

The fact is, he betrayed Jesus with a kiss! (Some friend and helper!)
Who in the world taught you your belief?

Duane Morse
Dec 4th 2007, 07:31 AM
And just because Jesus knew Judas' heart, that does not mean He chose that for Judas or forced him into it.

Jack Frost
Dec 4th 2007, 06:19 PM
Judas did not give his life for anyone. He died because he could not bear the guilt.

The fact is, he betrayed Jesus with a kiss! (Some friend and helper!)
Who in the world taught you your belief?


Well thats what you believe. Know one taught me what to believe. Maybe its because you were taught what to believe, you get a negative impression.

jeffweeder
Dec 4th 2007, 07:14 PM
Jesus said that he only lost one, the one foretold by the prophets, and that was Judas.
So he is lost then.

All were quite capable of betraying him, but the others didnt betray him.
All of them were slowww to believe, peter denied him, thomas doubted and Judass betrayed him.

To say that Judas was hand picked to betray him is nonsense.
He said to them all -"follow me" not betray me.
Judas role was to follow him, but he decided to follow the suggestion the devil made to him instead


Jesus said sacrificing yourself for others is a good thing and Jesus and Judas showed what it really means to sacrifice yourself for people.

Thats pretty outrageous Jack,
you sacrifice yourself to others by not thinking of what you want, but what others want.
Judas was a million miles away from this.

Jesus gave freely , judas took decietfully.
God in no-way suggested to Judas---betray my Son.
This would make him innocent and not lost, as Jesus and the prophets suggest.

Jack Frost
Dec 4th 2007, 08:32 PM
You don't know and can't prove what was on Judas' mind and what his intentions were. You can't understand why it happened that way till you understand what the trinity really is.

Soj
Dec 4th 2007, 08:36 PM
You don't know and can't prove what was on Judas' mind and what his intentions were. You can't understand why it happened that way till you understand what the trinity really is.Then enlighten us Jack. If you have the answers please share.

The Parson
Dec 4th 2007, 10:26 PM
You don't know and can't prove what was on Judas' mind and what his intentions were. You can't understand why it happened that way till you understand what the trinity really is.Explain the trinity if you would then Jack...

TrustGzus
Dec 4th 2007, 11:08 PM
Greetings Jack,

As I read your OP, a couple things jump out. You claim unwarranted hate for Judas. I've never made a claim about Judas on this website. However, you made a lot of claims. Since you're the one making the claims, I'd ask you to defend them.
Judas was picked by Jesus knowing that he'd do what he did and even told him and everyone that he'd "betray" him. Jesus picked Judas for a reason not by chance. The other disciples would've never done what Jesus wanted to happen which was show everyone what it really means to give up everything you have for love and good.I really don't have much problem with what you said there.
It even shows Judas' selflessness because he did what was supposed to happen thus making the majority of Christians think negatively about him, but he didn't care because he knew it would help tons of people. Jesus said sacrificing yourself for others is a good thing and Jesus and Judas showed what it really means to sacrifice yourself for people.How'd you come to the conclusion that Judas was being selfless in doing this? Was Judas being selfless when he was stealing money from the ministry (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:4-6;&version=31;)? It's interesting to note that John tells us Judas didn't care about the poor in that same passage.

Knowing that Judas did not care about the poor, and knowing that he stole from the ministry, where do you get your high, selfless view of Judas? Not caring about the poor and stealing from ministries aren't known as selfless characteristics.

Grace & peace to you,

Joe

DaveS
Dec 5th 2007, 01:18 AM
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil.
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

I don't know what else to say.

danield
Dec 5th 2007, 01:42 AM
I too think our premeditation actions do count in our lives mainly because it is a direct reflection of what is in your heart. But this is just my opinion.

Jack Frost
Dec 5th 2007, 02:19 AM
Jesus just said he should betray him there. Seems like he was asking him to do it.

ProjectPeter
Dec 5th 2007, 02:35 AM
Jesus just said he should betray him there. Seems like he was asking him to do it.
Jesus knew it would happen because it was prophecied to happen. Jesus knew it was Judas who was the one. THat is a far cry from Jesus telling him or asking him to do it. Come on Jack... you're grasping here!

Judas is toast. As Jesus said... it would have been better had he never been born. Goodness... that's a pretty rough saying don't you think?

Jack Frost
Dec 5th 2007, 02:41 AM
Jesus didn't say who it was that had the devil the narrator assumes it was Judas. If Judas had a devil in him the why didn't Jesus take it out of him? Thats because it happened the way it did for a reason.




Knowing that Judas did not care about the poor, and knowing that he stole from the ministry, where do you get your high, selfless view of Judas? Not caring about the poor and stealing from ministries aren't known as selfless characteristics.

Grace & peace to you,

Joe

The bible doesn't even say how Judas actually died so how do we know that happened.

Jack Frost
Dec 5th 2007, 02:48 AM
Jesus knew it would happen because it was prophecied to happen. Jesus knew it was Judas who was the one. THat is a far cry from Jesus telling him or asking him to do it. Come on Jack... you're grasping here!

Judas is toast. As Jesus said... it would have been better had he never been born. Goodness... that's a pretty rough saying don't you think?

So if Jesus knew Judas was the one then why didn't he stop him? Where does it say that?

jeffweeder
Dec 5th 2007, 02:53 AM
If Judas had a devil in him the why didn't Jesus take it out of him?

The devil went into him right at the end, then he went out and betrayed him.
I heard that Judas was the only non galilean Apostle also.


Jesus just said he should betray him there. Seems like he was asking him to do it.

that would mean that Jesus is telling him to sin. So he didnt ask him that. He commands everyone everwhere to repent, not sin.

Jack Frost
Dec 5th 2007, 03:01 AM
So if the devil made him do it then why is he responsible for what the devil's making him do? Fact is, if Judas didn't do what he did Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross to save humanity and Judas being responsible for helping save humanity is now being punished for it. Its like telling a kid if you know something bad is going to happen don't try and stop it because there's no such thing as free will.

ProjectPeter
Dec 5th 2007, 03:07 AM
Just like He doesn't stop you from sinning. It's your call to make.

Jack Frost
Dec 5th 2007, 03:07 AM
This also means Satan was helping God.

Jack Frost
Dec 5th 2007, 03:10 AM
Just like He doesn't stop you from sinning. It's your call to make.


So, if you have a kid and he/she tells you they know someones going to do something bad are you going to tell them its up that person to do whatever they want don't try and stop them?

danield
Dec 5th 2007, 03:16 AM
I think you are missing one big part jack and that is John 19:11

When Pilate heard this, he was more frightened than ever. 9 He took Jesus back into the headquarters[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2019%20;&version=51;#fen-NLT-26799a)] again and asked him, “Where are you from?” But Jesus gave no answer. 10 “Why don’t you talk to me?” Pilate demanded. “Don’t you realize that I have the power to release you or crucify you?”
11 Then Jesus said, “You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”

I think it was allowed for them to do what they did.

TrustGzus
Dec 5th 2007, 04:10 AM
Greetings Jack,

Your reply to me does not make sense to me. You made the claim that Judas was selfless and that he sacrificed himself for others. I replied by demonstrating that the Scripture clearly claims that Judas did not care for the poor and that he stole money from Jesus' ministry (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:4-6&version=31). I then asked you how you came to the conclusion that one who doesn't care about the poor and steals from the ministry can be labeled as selfless. You replied by saying . . .
The bible doesn't even say how Judas actually died so how do we know that happened.This has nothing to do with whether or not Judas was selfless. Before we talk about this newest claim that the Bible doesn't say how Judas died, could you answer the previous question?

How did you come to the conclusion that a man who did not care about the poor and stole from Jesus' ministry is selfless seeing that both of those descriptions of Judas depict him as a selfish person?

Grace & peace to you,

Joe

Jack Frost
Dec 5th 2007, 04:44 AM
It says this "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor?" which Judas says. Then the narrator accuses him of being a thief and claimed to know what his real intentions were. Can you prove he said that so he could steal the money or are you just going by what the narrator is claiming?

Love Fountain
Dec 5th 2007, 04:50 AM
I replied by demonstrating that the Scripture clearly claims that Judas did not care for the poor and that he stole money from Jesus' ministry (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:4-6&version=31). I then asked you how you came to the conclusion that one who doesn't care about the poor and steals from the ministry can be labeled as selfless. You replied by saying . . . This has nothing to do with whether or not Judas was selfless. Before we talk about this newest claim that the Bible doesn't say how Judas died, could you answer the previous question?

How did you come to the conclusion that a man who did not care about the poor and stole from Jesus' ministry is selfless seeing that both of those descriptions of Judas depict him as a selfish person?



Hello TrustGzus,

Hope you don't mind if I participate in the conversation. Regarding the accusation and judgment in the gospel of John towards Judas, why doesn't anyone, including yourself consider the following for what John judges and accuses?

Matt 7:1-2
7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
KJV


Seems to me John has issues with judging others, I wonder if he was paying attention when Jesus was teaching about judging?

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Jack Frost
Dec 5th 2007, 04:57 AM
^^Thats what I meant about understanding the trinity. Once you understand it its like a decoder ring.:D

Love Fountain
Dec 5th 2007, 05:05 AM
I think you are missing one big part jack and that is John 19:11

11 Then Jesus said, “You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”



Hello danield,

John 19:11 is not about Judas handing Jesus over to Pilate, even Pilate knows who handed Jesus over to him as it is written.

John 18:35

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
KJV


In case Pilate isn't believed, we can read for ourselves as follows,

John 18:13-14

13 And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.

14 Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.
KJV


Bless you,
Love Fountain

jeffreys
Dec 5th 2007, 05:10 AM
I think it's a little too easy to hate on Judas - just like it's a little too easy to hate on "Doubting Thomas".

I don't know whether or not Jesus picked Judas for the purpose of the betrayal, or whether Jesus picked Judas knowing both his strengths and weaknesses. Judas chose poorly, but the end result would have been the same anyway.

danield
Dec 5th 2007, 05:38 AM
Written by Love Fountain
John 19:11 is not about Judas handing Jesus over to Pilate, even Pilate knows who handed Jesus over to him as it is written

11 Then Jesus said, “You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.” NLV


11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
KJV


I just cant help but think that this passage is not reflecting what pilot knows about who has turned Jesus over to him, But who Jesus knows who has betrayed him. Also see how both versions are singular possessive which would indicate someone specific was in his mind instead of a mob. Now do not get me wrong, I am sure all who betrayed Christ will have to answer. However, when Christ was dying on the cross he said “father forgive them for they know not what they do” which covers many who were not close to his ministry. Judas on the other hand was very close to Jesus’ ministry and knew his great works and his great messages to all and should have known full well he was indeed the savior but betrayed him anyway because his heart was harden



I think Judas decided to follow another path on his own. It was his will just as it was the decision of the rich man not to sell all his goods and follow Christ. I do not think Christ forces anyone to follow him including Judas.

stoomart
Dec 5th 2007, 06:08 AM
Dear brother Jack,

From everything I've seen here, along with some other threads, I am curious what your opinion is on our free will, God's moral will (how He would like us to walk according to the bible), and God's sovereign will. Also, what do you think about this passage, particularly verse 16:

2 Timothy 3:15-17 - NKJV

14. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15. and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17. that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


In Christ's love, stoo

Duane Morse
Dec 5th 2007, 07:31 AM
I think it's a little too easy to hate on Judas - just like it's a little too easy to hate on "Doubting Thomas".

I don't know whether or not Jesus picked Judas for the purpose of the betrayal, or whether Jesus picked Judas knowing both his strengths and weaknesses. Judas chose poorly, but the end result would have been the same anyway.
I, for one, do not 'hate' Judas.

I feel sorry for him.
I am disgusted by his actions.

I hope I don't turn out like him.

But hate? No.

He was in darkness, and misguided by that fact.
How many of us have never fallen prey?

How many of us have never done something we knew was wrong, thinking it was done for the 'right' reasons (whatever those reasons may have been)?

There have been debates about the repentance of Judas at the end, just before he killed himself.
I do not want to start that can of worms again (so please, do not pick up on that aspect of this post), but, if it was a true repentance I would be one that would be welcoming him back into the Kingdom - and with open arms.


Better Judas had never been born?
Well, what about any of us that may not repent in time? Or that does some great evil?
What about any of us, that are destined (by our own evil or by the purpose of God) to commit an evil?

Maybe not all of have a preset destiny, but perhaps some of us do.

Jesus was one that had a preset destiny. He knew it, as the scriptures before His time on this earth foretold.
And what applies to the greatest, can also apply to any of the least.

danield
Dec 5th 2007, 04:24 PM
This is not directed to anyone particularly in this thread so please do not be offended, But I have been extremely puzzeled about a tremendous confusion about what is right and what is wrong. Again let me emphasize, I am not saying that anyone here thinks what Judas did was not wrong I guess I have been watching to many news shows who bring both the left and right view to argue back and forth. So it just strikes me as a bit puzzled to say the least. I really hate to bring one particular issue to light, but has anyone else noticed how folks cannot understand right from wrong? And in turn that their are consequences for wrongful actions and that they do indeed count. It is not that people are dumb because they are smart as whips. It just seems that people try to split hairs over issues to make things right. Again let me reassure you that I am not focusing on the OP, and I don't want to derail this thread. However, it has been very heavy on my mind for months.

On a side note I too have never heard of anyone hating Thomas, and I certainly do not.

jeffreys
Dec 5th 2007, 04:40 PM
On a side note I too have never heard of anyone hating Thomas, and I certainly do not.

I guess I should clarify...

I'm not thinking that anybody here is particularly doing this. I've just noticed, over the years, that it's so easy for us Christians to yap negatively about "Ole Doubting Thomas", as if he was much different from any of us. As if I wouldn't be demanding some proof myself.

And I think Christians tend to do the same with Judas. He makes a very easy scapegoat, and for good reason. But I tend to wonder if Judas was thinking of Jesus as an earthly King, was perhaps frustrated by the lack of military action, and was trying to bring about a confrontation that would lead to Jesus rising up and kicking the Romans out of Jerusalem.

Maybe Judas had all of (what he thought were) the best intentions - and that's why it hit him so hard when things didn't turn out the way he'd hoped. I mean, why would Judas have been filled with such remorse if he was simply wanting to betray Jesus, and it turned out the way he'd planned?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 5th 2007, 04:44 PM
Regarding the accusation and judgment in the gospel of John towards Judas, why doesn't anyone, including yourself consider the following for what John judges and accuses?

Matt 7:1-2
7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
KJV

Seems to me John has issues with judging others, I wonder if he was paying attention when Jesus was teaching about judging?

Seems most everyone takes that passage out of its plain context, and it's probably because of chapter breaks and passage titles, neither of which are inspired (if you remove them, you'd find the Bible doesn't always say what the editors think it says). Jesus has been talking about "treasure", which is mostly about finances, or security, and Matt. 7:1-2 is still about that - He's not changing topics out of no where. First He addresses the rich (6:19-24), then the poor (6:25-34), and then both groups (7:1-6). By commanding all to "judge not," He is not speaking about judging others for their sins, but contextually He's saying that just because a person has a lot of money, or even because a person gave up everything, this has no bearing on a person's piety. You could be extremely wealthy and also very close to Jesus, and you could have given everything away to the poor and moved to the poorest country to minister there and be spiritually dead. This is what Matt. 7:1-2 is talking about. - Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Dec 5th 2007, 04:47 PM
Jack Frost, I'd really like to get to know you better. How long have you been justified, and what is your testimony?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 5th 2007, 05:14 PM
Concerning judging a person, Jesus then follows this teaching on security / finances by saying "you will know them by their fruit". We are called to judge a person by their fruit! How can you know a false prophet? Are they going around proclaiming that their message is false? No. You judge their fruit. What is meant by "fruit", and what was Judas' fruit?

Diggindeeper
Dec 5th 2007, 05:19 PM
Seems most everyone takes that passage out of its plain context, and it's probably because of chapter breaks and passage titles, neither of which are inspired (if you remove them, you'd find the Bible doesn't always say what the editors think it says). Jesus has been talking about "treasure", which is mostly about finances, or security, and Matt. 7:1-2 is still about that - He's not changing topics out of no where. First He addresses the rich (6:19-24), then the poor (6:25-34), and then both groups (7:1-6). By commanding all to "judge not," He is not speaking about judging others for their sins, but contextually He's saying that just because a person has a lot of money, or even because a person gave up everything, this has no bearing on a person's piety. You could be extremely wealthy and also very close to Jesus, and you could have given everything away to the poor and moved to the poorest country to minister there and be spiritually dead. This is what Matt. 7:1-2 is talking about. - Lk.11

I disagree with the above statement. Jesus himself, from his very own mouth, tells us who he is talking about! Here is the rest of that passage:

Matthew 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


Jesus also said this:

John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment


Now, as for Judas...
Here is the reason Judas betrayed Jesus!

Matthew 26:14-16
14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,

15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

It's not like the chief priests approached Judas. No, the money-hungry, greedy dog went to them, and asked them, ""What will you GIVE me if I hand him over to you?" And from that time on he was thinking up a way to hand over Jesus to them FOR MONEY! He had gone from the Jesus camp to the enemy's camp!

Consider this--when Jesus said the one who WOULD betray him was there, at the table with the other disciples...it was AFTER Judas had made the decision to turn him over to the enemy FOR A PRICE! And, of course Jesus knew. Judas could not trick Jesus. Jesus knew their thoughts. He knew the intents of their hearts. And he still does today.

Judas, like many us today, probably thought he was pulling the wool over the eyes of Jesus. But, we decieve no one but ourselves! Judas made the decision to betray Jesus because he wanted the
M-O-N-E-Y! Period.

danield
Dec 5th 2007, 05:34 PM
I am buying a ticket to strawberry plains Tenn!

Nihil Obstat
Dec 5th 2007, 06:38 PM
Diggindeeper, I'm not sure I follow your logic... how does Him saying "hypocrite" disprove what I've shown you? Are you saying that just because you're a Christian, you can't be a hypocrite, or ever make hypocritical statements? He's speaking to His disciples, and He's saying that when a rich disciple sees a poor disciple and says to himself that God is frowning upon the poor disciple because riches come by God's blessing, he's judging the poor man. Or when a poor disciple looks at a rich disciple and says to himself that he is more pious than the rich disciple because he gave everything away, he's judging the rich man. To do so is hypocritical, and to live a lifestyle like this is to be a hypocrite. Why? - because seeking the kingdom has nothing to do with the amount of one's money; both rich and poor alike can do it. If you speak ill of another disciple based on their income, then you will be harshly judged based on how you harshly judged others. Jesus says that this type of judgment, which is not based on fruit but on outward appearances, is likened to being blind to a plank in your eye, and yet very aware of tiny specks in others' eyes. But His point isn't with just anything - it's specifically concerning finances / earthly security. - Lk.11

The Parson
Dec 5th 2007, 09:53 PM
Hey everybody. Because of the direction this thread has taken I believe it best to be moved to Controversial. One or two of you may not have access to that area yet and for that I appologize.

Thanks,
The Parson

Love Fountain
Dec 7th 2007, 04:07 AM
Consider this--when Jesus said the one who WOULD betray him was there, at the table with the other disciples...it was AFTER Judas had made the decision to turn him over to the enemy FOR A PRICE! And, of course Jesus knew. Judas could not trick Jesus. Jesus knew their thoughts. He knew the intents of their hearts. And he still does today.



Hello Diggindeeper,

It must be hard for some people to believe in a Jesus that would set up his friend to sin. Jesus chose Judas and if Jesus knew that Judas would sin, then by that logic Jesus himself would be a sinner for setting Judas up to sin. It is a sin to set someone up to sin, if you already know that they will sin.


Bless you,
Love Fountain

Diggindeeper
Dec 7th 2007, 04:17 AM
Love Fountain, show me scripture that says Jesus sat up his "friend" (Judas) to sin.

Show me, please. I showed you scripture as to why Judas betrayed Jesus. (For MONEY!) Now, no more of your opinion. If there is scripture that Jesus set up Judas....show me! No more opinions. Our opinions are not worth the cyber paper they are written on.

Love Fountain
Dec 7th 2007, 04:33 AM
I just cant help but think that this passage is not reflecting what pilot knows about who has turned Jesus over to him, But who Jesus knows who has betrayed him.


Hello danield,

Judas delivered Jesus to the high priest.

The high priest delivered Jesus to Pilate.

Not my words, that is what the Bible says as shared in a prior post. Now if people would like to lay it on Judas, then that is their choice.

Or we could consider what the following verse is saying and dig much deeper.

Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
KJV


Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Dec 7th 2007, 04:42 AM
Love Fountain, show me scripture that says Jesus sat up his "friend" (Judas) to sin.

Show me, please. I showed you scripture as to why Judas betrayed Jesus. (For MONEY!) Now, no more of your opinion. If there is scripture that Jesus set up Judas....show me! No more opinions. Our opinions are not worth the cyber paper they are written on.

Hello Diggindeeper,

Excuse me, but my words come from my heart and my heart is worth more to Jesus than you or I can imagine. Your response suggests that Jesus knew Judas would sin, by your logic Jesus set up Judas to sin and that is not what I believe or what Scripture says which was exactly what was being attempted to convey. Judas is a friend of Jesus and I wouldn't call any friend of Jesus a greedy dog nor would I tell another believer that their opinion is worthless.

Here is my other cheek,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Dec 7th 2007, 04:54 AM
And I think Christians tend to do the same with Judas. He makes a very easy scapegoat, and for good reason.

Hello jeffreys,

In suggesting a scapegoat, you are really digging deep. Remember the story in the OT about a guy named Joseph who had a coat of colors? Most would agree that he is a type of Christ. Well remember whose blood was put on Joseph's coat? In other words, if Joseph is a type of Christ, where does Judas have his type in the story of Joseph?

Gen 37:31

31 And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood;
KJV

We should all reconsider how Judas died.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Diggindeeper
Dec 7th 2007, 04:55 AM
What? No scripture?

jeffreys
Dec 7th 2007, 05:04 AM
Hello jeffreys,

In suggesting a scapegoat, you are really digging deep. Remember the story in the OT about a guy named Joseph who had a coat of colors? Most would agree that he is a type of Christ. Well remember whose blood was put on Joseph's coat? In other words, if Joseph is a type of Christ, where does Judas have his type in the story of Joseph?

Gen 37:31

31 And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood;
KJV

We should all reconsider how Judas died.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Boy, your recent posts on this thread have really been ornery. Perhaps you should take a look at your tone.


Do you know what a scapegoat is? Or perhaps I should clarify what I meant by using that term...

And I'm sorry, but I honestly cannot make any connection between what you're saying about Judas, and Joseph in Genesis 37.

Love Fountain
Dec 7th 2007, 05:07 AM
There have been debates about the repentance of Judas at the end, just before he killed himself.
I do not want to start that can of worms again (so please, do not pick up on that aspect of this post), but, if it was a true repentance I would be one that would be welcoming him back into the Kingdom - and with open arms.


Hello Duane,

Sorry, but to have a thread on Judas, it is kind of inevitable to also discuss his repentance.

The fact is that Judas was called and the calling that Judas received is without repentance.

Rom 11:30

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

To me, this settles the whole Judas repentance issue and I'm not sure why this is so overlooked?

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Dec 7th 2007, 05:24 AM
What? No scripture?


Hello Diggindeeper,

Have you ever dug a hole in the sand at the beach with your hand or a shovel? Once you get to a certain depth it no longer matters whether you are digging with a shovel or your hand, because the hole doesn't get any deeper.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Dec 7th 2007, 05:33 AM
Boy, your recent posts on this thread have really been ornery. Perhaps you should take a look at your tone.


Do you know what a scapegoat is? Or perhaps I should clarify what I meant by using that term...

And I'm sorry, but I honestly cannot make any connection between what you're saying about Judas, and Joseph in Genesis 37.


Hello jeffreys,

Sorry if I sound ornery, that is never intended. I was sincerely responding to you suggesting that Judas may be a scapegoat. You may be right though in regards to my suggesting that the goat that was killed to shed it's blood on Joseph's coat of colors probably is not a type of what happened to Judas, but there sure seems like a great deal of similarities.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

jeffreys
Dec 7th 2007, 02:09 PM
Hello jeffreys,

Sorry if I sound ornery, that is never intended. I was sincerely responding to you suggesting that Judas may be a scapegoat. You may be right though in regards to my suggesting that the goat that was killed to shed it's blood on Joseph's coat of colors probably is not a type of what happened to Judas, but there sure seems like a great deal of similarities.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Could you explain the connection you see there? I may be thick-headed, but I'm not seeing Judas' blood being shed for a lie or a cover-up. Is there something I'm missing? Thanks.

TrustGzus
Dec 8th 2007, 01:12 AM
Greetings Love Fountain,
Hello TrustGzus,

Hope you don't mind if I participate in the conversation. Regarding the accusation and judgment in the gospel of John towards Judas, why doesn't anyone, including yourself consider the following for what John judges and accuses?

Matt 7:1-2
7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
KJV


Seems to me John has issues with judging others, I wonder if he was paying attention when Jesus was teaching about judging?

Bless you,
Love FountainI don't mind you jumping in at all.

First of all, is judging always wrong? The answer is no. Diggingdeeper gave a reply to you about this in post #46 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1461950&postcount=46). The Bible commands Christians to judge. As Christians we must systematize all Scripture into a theology and guidance for Christian living. We cannot, indeed we must not, pit one verse against another. So if one passage gives us authority to judge, then another passage telling us not to judge cannot be a universal ban, but only a limitation on judging. So I'd say look into Diggingdeeper's reply and those Scriptures and then form a new comment.

Secondly, did John judge Judas? Let's look at what John wrote.
4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5“Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

The Holy Bible : Today's New International Version. 2005 (Jn 12:4-6). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.


How is that a judgment? Couldn't it simply be a statement of fact? Judas stole money from the bag. That's not a judgment. That's a statement that corresponds with the facts. Judas did not care about the poor. I don't see why that's a "judgment" either. It's just a factual statement.

I'm curious as to what your view of the Bible is. Do you believe it is merely a human book in which the writers made errors in their writing?

Grace & peace to you,

Joe

Love Fountain
Dec 16th 2007, 04:32 PM
Could you explain the connection you see there? I may be thick-headed, but I'm not seeing Judas' blood being shed for a lie or a cover-up. Is there something I'm missing? Thanks.


Hello jeffreys,

The Greek word paradidomi is translated as betray when used of Judas. However the Greek word paradidomi actually means to deliver up or entrust. Judas of the tribe of Judah, an educated man, would know the law the Pharisees lived by. The time when Jesus was delivered up or entrusted to the Pharisees was during the time of the Passover which is a whole week of events called a High Sabbath. During any Sabbath it was illegal, according to the law the Pharisees followed, to have a trial. Yet this didn't stop the Pharisees from holding an illegal trial of Jesus in the dark of night, so no one would know. Judas knew it was illegal though. By the Pharisees own law, anyone who holds trial during a Sabbath was to be punished by death. The Pharisees condemned Jesus to death, and Judas would bare witness to their illegal activities in the dark of night during the time of the Passover Sabbath and gives them back the pieces of silver which gives witness of his disapproval of their illegal activities. The Pharisees needed Judas to disappear, to cover up what they had done by condemning Jesus to death during an illegal trial on the Sabbath.

How this relates to the story of Joseph in the OT is that the proof of Joseph's death was the blood of a goat and the blame of the death of Jesus is blamed on Judas.

Hope this helps.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Dec 16th 2007, 05:07 PM
First of all, is judging always wrong? The answer is no. Diggingdeeper gave a reply to you about this in post #46 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1461950&postcount=46).


Hello Joe,

Diggindeeper wasn't replying to me in post 46, but was responding to astrongerthanhe in my support. Diggindeeper was explaining in post 46 to astrongerthanhe that there is righteous and unrighteous judgment.




The Bible commands Christians to judge. As Christians we must systematize all Scripture into a theology and guidance for Christian living. We cannot, indeed we must not, pit one verse against another. So if one passage gives us authority to judge, then another passage telling us not to judge cannot be a universal ban, but only a limitation on judging. So I'd say look into Diggingdeeper's reply and those Scriptures and then form a new comment.


Joe, please take your own advice and go back to post 46 and see it wasn't written to me.




Secondly, did John judge Judas? Let's look at what John wrote.How is that a judgment? Couldn't it simply be a statement of fact? Judas stole money from the bag. That's not a judgment. That's a statement that corresponds with the facts. Judas did not care about the poor. I don't see why that's a "judgment" either. It's just a factual statement.


John judges Judas in his accusation. However why would Judas be accused of not caring for the poor if Judas was poor himself? Seems to me, John implies Judas was rich and not poor. Wasn't it Judas who asked why the ointment wasn't sold and the money given to the poor? Seems like an interesting question for someone who doesn't care for the poor?




I'm curious as to what your view of the Bible is. Do you believe it is merely a human book in which the writers made errors in their writing?


Joe, please tell me whose words are the following, mans or Gods?

Job 22:25
Yea, the Almighty shall be thy defence, and thou shalt have plenty of silver.
KJV


Also, whose words are the following, mans or Gods?

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
KJV


The Bible has words of men and words of God, which is why we are instructed to:

2 Tim 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV


Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Dec 16th 2007, 05:19 PM
Judas made the decision to betray Jesus because he wanted the [/COLOR]
M-O-N-E-Y! Period.

Hello Diggindeeper,

What money?

Have you ever read anywhere in the whole Bible that Jesus told his Disciples to collect money?

Perhaps it wasn't about money but rather a burial plot?

Instead Judas was given the field of blood for a burial plot.

We can either stop diggin or keep diggin.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Tanya~
Dec 16th 2007, 07:13 PM
Judas was in charge of the group's treasury, and used to steal from it. They had to have some money if they were going to eat. There were also some women who contributed to their support.

See John 12:6 and Luke 8:1-3.

Love Fountain
Dec 16th 2007, 08:39 PM
Judas was in charge of the group's treasury, and used to steal from it. They had to have some money if they were going to eat. There were also some women who contributed to their support.

See John 12:6 and Luke 8:1-3.

Hello TanyaP,

Please help me to remember where Jesus told his disciples to take money and go buy food in the Bible? I don't remember ever seeing them be told to buy food with money?

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Tanya~
Dec 16th 2007, 08:54 PM
Hi fountain, Please see the passages I referenced. They had a money box, and Judas stole money from it. Here, I'll quote this one for you.


John 12:4-6
But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, who would betray Him, said, 5 "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.

As to your question about buying food, the disciples went into the city and bought food when they arrived in Samaria:


John 4:5-8
5 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink." 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
That Jesus was in charge of how the money in the box was to be spent, can be inferred from this passage:


John 13:29
29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, "Buy those things we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor.

Love Fountain
Dec 16th 2007, 10:01 PM
Hi fountain, Please see the passages I referenced. They had a money box, and Judas stole money from it. Here, I'll quote this one for you.


John 12:4-6
But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, who would betray Him, said, 5 "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.

As to your question about buying food, the disciples went into the city and bought food when they arrived in Samaria:


John 4:5-8
5 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink." 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
That Jesus was in charge of how the money in the box was to be spent, can be inferred from this passage:


John 13:29
29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, "Buy those things we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor.



Hi TanyaP,

Thank you for your response, but nowhere in those verses you share, does Jesus tell his disciples to go buy food with money.

Some things the disciples do, are instructed by Jesus and some things the disciples do, are not instructed by Jesus. Buying food with money is not something I can remember Jesus telling his disciples to do.

I do remember Jesus telling his disciples,

John 6:33-35
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
KJV


Bless you,
Love Fountain

jeffreys
Dec 16th 2007, 10:18 PM
Hello jeffreys,

The Greek word paradidomi is translated as betray when used of Judas. However the Greek word paradidomi actually means to deliver up or entrust. Judas of the tribe of Judah, an educated man, would know the law the Pharisees lived by. The time when Jesus was delivered up or entrusted to the Pharisees was during the time of the Passover which is a whole week of events called a High Sabbath. During any Sabbath it was illegal, according to the law the Pharisees followed, to have a trial. Yet this didn't stop the Pharisees from holding an illegal trial of Jesus in the dark of night, so no one would know. Judas knew it was illegal though. By the Pharisees own law, anyone who holds trial during a Sabbath was to be punished by death. The Pharisees condemned Jesus to death, and Judas would bare witness to their illegal activities in the dark of night during the time of the Passover Sabbath and gives them back the pieces of silver which gives witness of his disapproval of their illegal activities. The Pharisees needed Judas to disappear, to cover up what they had done by condemning Jesus to death during an illegal trial on the Sabbath.

How this relates to the story of Joseph in the OT is that the proof of Joseph's death was the blood of a goat and the blame of the death of Jesus is blamed on Judas.

Hope this helps.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

That's quite a stretch, on several levels...

jeffreys
Dec 16th 2007, 10:20 PM
Hi TanyaP,

Thank you for your response, but nowhere in those verses you share, does Jesus tell his disciples to go buy food with money.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

I think you're intentionally "straining at gnats".

The point is that Judas was the keeper of the money. He was also - apparently - known to have dipped into it for selfish reasons.

Love Fountain
Dec 18th 2007, 05:08 AM
I think you're intentionally "straining at gnats".

The point is that Judas was the keeper of the money. He was also - apparently - known to have dipped into it for selfish reasons.


Hi jeffreys,

It's not the first time I've been incinuated to be a blind pharisaical guide.

Thank you for the blessing!
Stretch Armstrong aka Love Fountain

teddyv
Dec 18th 2007, 04:03 PM
From my limited understanding, Judas' intention behind his betrayal was that he never truly understood who Jesus was. He seems to have thought Jesus was to be the new worldly king of the Jews who would throw out the Roman's and restore Israel (I think most of the other disciples initially believed this as well).

As time went by perhaps Judas got impatient and took matters on himself, trying to force Jesus to assume the role Judas wanted/expected. He would have known the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus arrested at minimum, and so by selling Jesus out to them, there was a chance at forcing a showdown where either Jesus fought back and took the kingship or he was arrested and proved to not be the Messiah (as Judas expected). If Jesus was arrested he was 30 silver coins richer, if not he gets a revolution. Either way, Judas wins.

As an aside, I think the 30 silver coins was actually not that much money for the deed.

I realize this in not specifically justified in scripture, though I think the undertones are there. Based on historical understanding of the politics of the time, I think it can be considered plausible.

Perhaps those with greater wisdom in this regard can now savage my post.:)

Tanya~
Dec 18th 2007, 04:50 PM
Hi Teddy,

Interesting comments about Judas. I'm working through a study in Mark and this part is today's passage:

Mark 8:31-33
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."
NKJV

This was one thing that Jesus didn't teach through parables. It really is hard to get inside Judas' head, to try to analyze his motivations for doing what he did. Was he trying to actually help fulfill Jesus' prediction about His future? Or did he really think that by giving Jesus over to the authorities, it would lead to a show-down? Or is is possible that Judas really did intend to betray Him to the leaders because he was sympathetic with their rejection of Him, and didn't believe in Him?

Just as Satan himself was in the very presence of God and turned against Him through pride, so Judas was witness to the miracles of Jesus yet betrayed Him. I agree your theory is plausible. That view is held by others as well. But while we can speculate, his true motivations will remain a mystery.

jeffreys
Dec 18th 2007, 07:35 PM
Hi Teddy,

Interesting comments about Judas. I'm working through a study in Mark and this part is today's passage:

Mark 8:31-33
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."
NKJV

This was one thing that Jesus didn't teach through parables. It really is hard to get inside Judas' head, to try to analyze his motivations for doing what he did. Was he trying to actually help fulfill Jesus' prediction about His future? Or did he really think that by giving Jesus over to the authorities, it would lead to a show-down? Or is is possible that Judas really did intend to betray Him to the leaders because he was sympathetic with their rejection of Him, and didn't believe in Him?

Just as Satan himself was in the very presence of God and turned against Him through pride, so Judas was witness to the miracles of Jesus yet betrayed Him. I agree your theory is plausible. That view is held by others as well. But while we can speculate, his true motivations will remain a mystery.


Those are some wonderful thoughts - thank you!

Speculation is the key here. And speculation isn't at all wrong, so long as we don't presume to believe that our speculation is the absolute truth.

Bottom line: God obviously decided that the entire thought process of Judas wasn't the main issue, so He decided not to elaborate.

That being said, I've often wondered if Judas really did believe in Jesus, but was never able to get past thinking Jesus would be an earthly king - and that he (Judas) would be the treasurer in this new kingdom. I've wondered if Judas' motivation was more of an attempt to force a confrontation and "get things started" than a desire to see Jesus crucified. If my guess is correct, that would explain why Judas was filled with such remorse.

But again, that's just my speculative opinion.

teddyv
Dec 18th 2007, 07:51 PM
snip...
That being said, I've often wondered if Judas really did believe in Jesus, but was never able to get past thinking Jesus would be an earthly king - and that he (Judas) would be the treasurer in this new kingdom. I've wondered if Judas' motivation was more of an attempt to force a confrontation and "get things started" than a desire to see Jesus crucified. If my guess is correct, that would explain why Judas was filled with such remorse.

But again, that's just my speculative opinion.

I think you restated my point, but of course more clearly and succinctly:lol:.