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NavyFirefighter
Dec 6th 2007, 03:00 PM
I was talking to a Freemason, and he told me that to be a Mason you have to believe in The One True God. He also said that in the lodge you not allowed to talk about politics or religion. Does that make sence? The One True God rule makes membership avaliable to Chirstians, Jews and Muslims. Is that of God?

diffangle
Dec 6th 2007, 03:09 PM
I was talking to a Freemason, and he told me that to be a Mason you have to believe in The One True God. He also said that in the lodge you not allowed to talk about politics or religion. Does that make sence? The One True God rule makes membership avaliable to Chirstians, Jews and Muslims. Is that of God?
Freemasonry is a religion and it's not the one of the Scriptures. Here's a helpful site of ex-Freemasons for Jesus...

http://www.emfj.org/index.html

ServantofTruth
Dec 6th 2007, 03:14 PM
A club that gives to charity and meets to discuss good works generally would be good. If that club wanted to dress us and do funny plays odd but nothing too harmful.
But from what i have read and heard, the rituals would verge on idol worship. One of the main reasons for joining is promotion at work by covert means. This is especially bad in the police, law and other core services in the community, local and national government.
There are certainly questions to be answered and i don't think a christian would be wise to be a mason. If you want to treat everyone fairly, at work, in society etc.

Jollyrogers
Dec 6th 2007, 03:26 PM
You have to believe in "A God", any god will do as long as you believe in one. Even Lucifer counts as a god if you want him to. I am not a subsciber to all gods being the same god, I have looked at enough religions to know that they all claim to be the only true religion and therefore they are not compatable with each other.

KATA_LOUKAN
Dec 6th 2007, 04:04 PM
Masons = not good.

Just look for articles on the internet. Their organization, proceedings, and secrets arent that secret. You will find that they are bad news.

9Marksfan
Dec 6th 2007, 04:22 PM
They are satanic - when you get to the Thirty third Degree, you must accept that Lucifer is God. Nuff said.

Frances
Dec 6th 2007, 06:48 PM
They are satanic - when you get to the Thirty third Degree, you must accept that Lucifer is God. Nuff said.

Agreed. Keep well clear . . .

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 01:54 AM
Freemasonry is not satanic or demonic. There are many fruit-bearing bible-believing Christian who are Masons. Yes, there are a lot of anti-masonic websites and fantastic claims about Freemasonry. Some ignorantly claim that Baphomet is the demonic god of Freemasonry and all sorts of other anti-masonic nonesense. My former pastor is a Freemason and he has led thousands of unbelievers to Christ. I was a mason and member of the advanced masonic orders. I'm no longer a member, but not because of all these demonic or satanic claims. I've had many of the conspiracy theorists tell me that there is a visible and invisible masonry, and that they just didn't let me in on the inner-most workings that were evil. It is funny to me how they believe that masons who have achieved the highest degrees the fraternity has to offer would know nothing about these evil leanings, while people who have never been masons know all about it. That baffles me. But it's something to think about, don't you think?

Now, as far as belief in God, the masonic fraternity only requires that a member profess a belief in God. They do not tell members what form their belief must take, or prescribe any doctrine. They leave that to the individual conscience, just like the Democratic party of the Republican party do. Or the Boy Scouts for that matter. Because the Boy Scouts allow a Jewish boy to join, would you keep your child out? Well, the Masons accept Jews and Muslims as members. Members are not allowed to discuss politics or religion in the lodge room. That is my personal objection, and why I'm not a member. I am not comfortable being in any place where I cannot proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. That is a personal conviction. Others don't see it that way, and that's fine. But all this stuff I read from people who have no personal knowledge of what masonry is makes me really wonder why people like to spread lies when they don't really know if they are spreading truth or lies. Some find conspiracy theories so enticing that they don't really care whether it is true or not.


Here is a website that provides factual information: http://www.masonicinfo.com/

Brother Mark
Dec 28th 2007, 02:20 AM
One reason so much anti-mason stuff is out there is because of the murder of William Morgan. He was planning to publish a book of the secrets of the order. He was arrested for stealing and ended up getting kidnapped and murdered. Many people thought Masons did it and it caused a wave of anti-masonic thoughts.

losthorizon
Dec 28th 2007, 02:36 AM
Freemasonry is not satanic or demonic. There are many fruit-bearing bible-believing Christian who are Masons.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3). To worship or to call upon other deities is idolatry per the word of God but Masons can believe and call upon any deity - “any god will do”. No, James – Masonry and the Christian faith are not compactable no matter which way one chooses to spin “the Craft”…
"Masonry ... requires merely that you believe in some deity, give him what name you will ... any god will do, so he is your god" (Little Masonic Library, Macoy Publishing, 1977)

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 03:25 AM
Well, that's one way to look at it. So, would you not let your son join the boy scouts because they only require a belief in God, not specifically Jesus Christ? Do people spew the same venom and vitrol toward the Boy Scouts? As I said, my reason for being a former mason rather than a current mason is that I do not want to put myself into any position where I am restricted from proclaiming Jesue Christ as Lord. The masons do accept non-Christian members. But so do the Democratic and Republican parties. Do folks apply the same principles to these organizations? If you find that your local Republican party has Jewish members or Muslim members, do you withdraw? Why or why not?

Masonry does not call upon any other deity. It simply leaves the decision as to who God is to the individual member.

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 03:29 AM
They are satanic - when you get to the Thirty third Degree, you must accept that Lucifer is God. Nuff said.

Have you been offered the 33rd degree? How did you come by this bizzarre information? Through personal experience? Nah. You're just spreading lies you've heard from others who also have never been a part of the 33rd degree ceremony. Nuff said.

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 03:31 AM
Masons = not good.

Just look for articles on the internet. Their organization, proceedings, and secrets arent that secret. You will find that they are bad news.

Oh yes, if it's on the internet it must be correct. Check out www.masonicinfo.com (http://www.masonicinfo.com) if you'd like some accurate analysis of all this bizzare anti-masonic vitriol you find on the internet.

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 03:32 AM
But from what i have read and heard...

Have you heard anything from a Christian brother who has been a mason? Or just read stuff on anti-masonic websites?

threebigrocks
Dec 28th 2007, 03:36 AM
One reason so much anti-mason stuff is out there is because of the murder of William Morgan. He was planning to publish a book of the secrets of the order. He was arrested for stealing and ended up getting kidnapped and murdered. Many people thought Masons did it and it caused a wave of anti-masonic thoughts.

If William Morgan was killed because he was going to reveal secrets about the Masons, yet was arrested because he was stealing, that's enough for me. Pledge faith to God but steal and be arrested for it? Killed for secrets? Something is amiss, in a big way.

And, why would someone be required to pledge themselves to God yet spend that much time to make it through 33 stages of a secular organization, much of that being a secret in and of itself?

God is not secret.

diffangle
Dec 28th 2007, 03:40 AM
Masonry does not call upon any other deity

Who's jahbulon?

losthorizon
Dec 28th 2007, 03:48 AM
...Masonry does not call upon any other deity. It simply leaves the decision as to who God is to the individual member.
Again – to a Mason “any god will do” which is nothing less than pagan philosophy – thus Freemasonry is incompatible with the word of God - "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3). How do you reconcile “any god” with the "One God" of the Christian faith – it can’t be done.

losthorizon
Dec 28th 2007, 04:54 AM
Who's jahbulon?
Jahbulon 1. (freemasonry) A symbolic or ceremonial name for God associated by some writers with certain Masonic rites. (Wikipedia)
“Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel...I have made, and I will bear; yea, I will carry, and will deliver. To whom will ye like me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me…” Isaiah 46

Tamararc
Dec 28th 2007, 06:07 AM
This is based on information from http://www.emfj.org/index.html . 'Ex-Masons For Jesus' is an apologetics group whose members are former masons. Their knowledge is based on first-hand information. As to whether or not a 33rd degree mason is satanic, I believe the answer is yes. Firstly, in the Legend of the Third Degree, Hiram Abiff is represented as the savior of masons. The symbolism of this legend is not even creative in its imitation of the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
[Question] Masonic teaching is symbolic. The most important symbol?
The most important symbol of Freemasonry is the Legend of the Third Degree. In the legend, Hiram Abiff is unjustly murdered, buried and raised from the grave. Each man being initiated portrays Hiram in ritual.
The Worshipful Master closes the ritual with these words:
Then, finally my brethren, let us imitate our Grand Master, Hiram Abiff, in his
virtuous conduct, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his
trust; that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant, Death, and receive him as a
kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this
imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the
Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.
The meaning of the ritual is obvious to those who are not blinded by Satan. Freemasons are encouraged to imitate Hiram Abiff so that they may get into heaven. Some Masons attempt to view this as representing the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. However, even if the name Jesus Christ were substituted for Hiram Abiff, this teaching would still be a false of salvation. No where in Scripture does it state that we should imitate Jesus to get into heaven. What is required for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ. Notice that Masonic ritual substitutes imitation for faith and Hiram Abiff for Jesus Christ.

[Question] Does Freemasonry have a plan of salvation?
The meaning of the Legend of the Third Degree is explained in The Ahiman Rezon, the monitor published by the Grand Lodge of South Carolina. It states that:
It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness, . . . to
teach the immortality of the soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim
of its ritual. . . By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin. . . it has
been remarked by a learned writer of our Order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of
iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation.
It is impossible for an honest Christian to deny that anything that redeems a man from sin is a plan of salvation. Numerous portions of Masonic ritual instruct Masons how to get into heaven. The most blatant is the conclusion of the Legend of the Third Degree. The Worshipful Master closes the ritual with these words:
Then, finally my brethren, let us imitate our Grand Master, Hiram Abiff, in his virtuous conduct, his unfeigned piety to
God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant, Death, and receive him as a
kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and
celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.
The Kentucky Monitor removes any doubt about the meaning of Freemasonry’s symbolism. In the preface, beginning in 1946 edition and continuing through at least five editions, a discussion of various religions and their various saviors concluded that Jesus was a savior for Christians, while Hiram is a savior for Masons.
All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and
punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity
reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The
Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians,
Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the Christians, Jesus; Masons, Hiram. (pages XIV-XV)


Secondly, masons require belief in one 'supreme being'. This requirement can be satisfied by belief in buddha, the wiccan 'horned god of witchcraft', or the hindu god(ess?) vishnu. They reject belief in a triune God, and although other religious idols are mentioned, Jesus is rarely, if ever, mentioned.
[Question] Do Masons believe in the God of the Bible?
Freemasonry requires each Mason to believe that there is only one God and teaches that all men worship that one God, simply using a variety of different names. In the case of the Wiccan, he satisfies the requirement for belief in A Supreme Being by believing in the Horned god of Witchcraft. The Hindu may satisfy the requirement with faith in Vishnu.
Clearly the members of these pagan religions do not worship the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Rather, they worship demons as documented in 1 Corinthians 10:20-21. In lodge, prayers are offered to the Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU). That name has been chosen so that Masons may pretend, or believe, that they all worship the same God, simply using different names in their private devotions. Scripture is clear on this matter; there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10, 44:6), but all men do not worship that one God. Pagans worship demons, as documented in 1 Corinthians 10:20-21.
A question for the Christian Mason to ponder is this: What is happening when they engage in corporate Masonic prayer as one person offers a prayer to the GAOTU for all in lodge? Is Freemasonry tricking pagans into worshiping the God of the Bible, or are Christians being tricked into worshiping a demon? A question you might ask the Master is the following: "Is the god of Buddhists the God of the Bible?" If he says yes, you will know that he does not know the God of the Bible and the teachings of scripture. If he says no, then you will know that he does not believe that all Masons worship one God, simply using a variety of different names. Either way, the foundational teaching of Freemasonry, that Masons all worship the God of the Bible, is seen to be false.

diffangle
Dec 28th 2007, 06:30 AM
Jahbulon 1. (freemasonry) A symbolic or ceremonial name for God associated by some writers with certain Masonic rites. (Wikipedia)
“Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel...I have made, and I will bear; yea, I will carry, and will deliver. To whom will ye like me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me…” Isaiah 46
Also from wiki...

According to author Stephen Knight, following Walton Hannah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walton_Hannah)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#_note-11) the word is a compound of the names of three gods worshipped in the ancient Middle East.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#_note-12)

Jah (= Yahweh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh))
Baal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal)
On, a name in Genesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis) in the Bible (in "Potiphar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potiphar) priest of On"), thought in older times to be a name of Osiris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris) (but now known to be the Hebrew form of the Ancient Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian) name of the city of Heliopolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliopolis_%28ancient%29)).

Brother Mark
Dec 28th 2007, 01:04 PM
If William Morgan was killed because he was going to reveal secrets about the Masons, yet was arrested because he was stealing, that's enough for me. Pledge faith to God but steal and be arrested for it? Killed for secrets? Something is amiss, in a big way.

And, why would someone be required to pledge themselves to God yet spend that much time to make it through 33 stages of a secular organization, much of that being a secret in and of itself?

God is not secret.

It certainly raises some flags does it not? It has to make one wonder. When it happened, many Masons quit and Masonry numbers were way down for a long time.

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 04:54 PM
Who's jahbulon?

Jahbulon is a word used in Royal Arch masonry in an allegorical ceremony. It refers to an explorer who is searching for the ruins of King Solomon's temple. Masonic scholars disagree on what the original meaning of the word is. Non-masonic cospiracy theorists insist that it is some kind name for God. It is not. Masons refer to God either as God or as the Supreme Architect of the Universe, which is a true statement about God.

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 05:00 PM
Again – to a Mason “any god will do” which is nothing less than pagan philosophy – thus Freemasonry is incompatible with the word of God - "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3). How do you reconcile “any god” with the "One God" of the Christian faith – it can’t be done.

Again, the Boy Scouts do not require your boy to profess a belief in our God as Christians in order to join. If your boy says he believes in God but is a Muslim, he can still join the Boy Scouts. Does that make the Boy Scouts satanic? Does that mean that we should not let our sons be Boy Scouts because they might be in a club with Jewish or Muslim kids? What about Mormon or Jehovah's Witness kids?

The masons to not have to reconcile "any god". They tell a man that he must believe in God, i.e. not be an atheist, if he wishes to join. It does not tell the man what his beliefs about God must be because it is not a church or a religion. It is a fraternal organization that excludes atheists from membership.

threebigrocks
Dec 28th 2007, 05:07 PM
Again, the Boy Scouts do not require your boy to profess a belief in our God as Christians in order to join. If your boy says he believes in God but is a Muslim, he can still join the Boy Scouts. Does that make the Boy Scouts satanic? Does that mean that we should not let our sons be Boy Scouts because they might be in a club with Jewish or Muslim kids? What about Mormon or Jehovah's Witness kids?

The masons to not have to reconcile "any god". They tell a man that he must believe in God, i.e. not be an atheist, if he wishes to join. It does not tell the man what his beliefs about God must be because it is not a church or a religion. It is a fraternal organization that excludes atheists from membership.

Boy Scouts even need to let girls join now. :rolleyes: Whatever!

But then why don't they just say they need to profess faith in a diety? Why God instead of "g"od?

Why the secrecy? That's what I want to know. Had my share with organizations that are secretive, and never again will I blindly step into that again.

always
Dec 28th 2007, 05:08 PM
Have you heard anything from a Christian brother who has been a mason? Or just read stuff on anti-masonic websites?

I have heard from a mason, when I confronted him that there God's name they use in RITUALS is a combination of Baal, Yah and a third ONE :hmm: I can't remember to encompass all beliefs. He confirmed that. Thinking that it was alright if he focused on just his God that he believed in.

This is so very dangerous especially for young men, it's like Wiccan, "oh we just believe in Mother Nature"

The enemy comes in many forms of light, decieving

always
Dec 28th 2007, 05:10 PM
Jahbulon .


Yah, baal, Lah????????????????????

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 05:35 PM
This is based on information from http://www.emfj.org/index.html . 'Ex-Masons For Jesus' is an apologetics group whose members are former masons. Their knowledge is based on first-hand information. As to whether or not a 33rd degree mason is satanic, I believe the answer is yes. Firstly, in the Legend of the Third Degree, Hiram Abiff is represented as the savior of masons. The symbolism of this legend is not even creative in its imitation of the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The 33rd degree is an honorary degree given to men who have demonstrated a lifetime of service to the fraternity. One cannot work to earn the 33rd degree. The third degree is an entirely different thing.

There are many anti-masonic website, just as there are anti-Christian websites, anti-Catholic websites, and so forth. There are ex-Catholics for Jesus, ex-Christians for Allah, and all sorts of other "anti" groups. I am a former mason myself. I chose to leave based on completely different issues. I know what masonry is from the inside. That is why I speak out when I hear the fantastic claims people make. It is as if people who never knew my mother tried to convince me that she wasn't really the person I knew her to be. That would be ridiculous.

always
Dec 28th 2007, 05:44 PM
It is as if people who never knew my mother tried to convince me that she wasn't really the person I knew her to be. That would be ridiculous.

What they could be saying is true but ridiculous to you because she is someone you love, as these groups become something, that one loves, ones have a hard time excepting the truth about them.

IMHO

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 05:44 PM
Why the secrecy? That's what I want to know.

There are only two secrets. The modes of recognition whereby Masons can know one another outside the lodge - basically the handshakes and passwords. The other is the obligation, or oath, one takes when receiving the degrees. There is nothing secret that really amounts to a hill of beans, but it symbolizes how the building tradesmen of the middle ages were able to show that they were indeed masters of their trade when they travelled from country to country. It's all symbolism taken from that model. In some regards, it is little boyish in the "let's have secret handshakes and passwords".

Frankly, I don't believe any mason every confirmed to anybody anything about baal or any other idolitry being a part of any masonic ritual. If they did, they did not speak the truth. Again, this is not "stuff I heard", I received the most prestigious degrees achievable in masonry. I know what the masons are. I left because 1) at that time they were a de facto racist organization, and 2) I chose not to be part of any organization the prohibits me from proclaiming Jesus Christ anywhere I go, even the lodge room. Their prohibition against discussing politics is fine, but the prohibition against discussing religion was unacceptable to me once I was a Christian and it was primarily for that reason that I withdrew. But my former pastor, a true man of God who has led countless unbelievers to Christ, is still a mason as are many Christian men who bear great fruit for the Kingdom of God. That's why I hate hearing all the wild accusations that I know personally to be lies. I would also caution others from spreading things they don't know personally, because spreading a lie is spreading a lie even if you think it is truth.

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 05:52 PM
What they could be saying is true but ridiculous to you because she is someone you love, as these groups become something, that one loves, ones have a hard time excepting the truth about them.


So you think it would be love, and not my personal knowledge, that would keep me from accepting what someone who never knew my mother said about her? I have no love for masonry. I am not a mason. I have no reason to not to accept the truth other than having been a mason for over 20 years I'm more inclined to beleive what I already have intimate personal knowledge of, rather than what other have read on some website they happened across. Isn't that reasonable?

always
Dec 28th 2007, 05:59 PM
So you think it would be love, and not my personal knowledge, that would keep me from accepting what someone who never knew my mother said about her? I have no love for masonry. I am not a mason. I have no reason to not to accept the truth other than having been a mason for over 20 years I'm more inclined to beleive what I already have intimate personal knowledge of, rather than what other have read on some website they happened across. Isn't that reasonable?
Yes of course that's reasonable, and maybe you didn't experience what others have, but isn't it just as reasonable that someone has experienced these things? and that is the reason that this has come out.

just as frats? I'm sure there are ones that individuals learn from and enjoyed, but there are some that ones died being a part of.

Isn't it fair to warn, and the fact that it borders on these issues, a reason to abstain?

diffangle
Dec 28th 2007, 06:21 PM
So you think it would be love, and not my personal knowledge, that would keep me from accepting what someone who never knew my mother said about her? I have no love for masonry. I am not a mason. I have no reason to not to accept the truth other than having been a mason for over 20 years I'm more inclined to beleive what I already have intimate personal knowledge of, rather than what other have read on some website they happened across. Isn't that reasonable?
On the mother thing... something else that can cloud people's vision is that they are related to that person/connected to that thing(cult). They don't want to belive that the loved one/thing they're linked to could be capable of evil. Look at the cases of unsuspecting wives, parents, children who've had their husband, child, parent turn out to be seriel murderers or rapists... when asked they say things like "I never had any idea".

Also, do the boyscouts prohibit the kids from speaking about their belief in Jesus(that would raise a anti-Messiah red flag for me, if so)? Another question I have, with all due respect, is... how is believing the testimonies of the emfj (http://www.emfj.org/index.html)different from us believing your testimony? Why believe you over them? :confused

FaithfulSheep
Dec 28th 2007, 06:40 PM
Brother James... I have another question about the secrecy stuff... if those are the only secrets, how come the windows of the lodge are boarded up and blacked out during meeting times? (I lived across from a masonic lodge for many years.)

Another question.... Exactly what happens at a lodge meeting? If there are no secrets about what happens (you said there were only 2 secrets, the levels of recognition and the oath), then let us know how a meeting works. What kinds of things take place? (I have a few masonic friends. I understand that they wouldn't talk to me, but they won't answer my husband either.) These are simple questions that don't require secrecy if there is truly nothing for them to hide.

xSTEADFASTx
Dec 28th 2007, 07:16 PM
I dont really know.. but... I do know that

Secret Lives Of The Freemasons

put on a great live set.

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://images.victoryrecords.com/artists/1330.jpg&usg=AFQjCNERVPK6AMBCrGlwQEOLdHJCI3gjGg

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 07:59 PM
Brother James... I have another question about the secrecy stuff... if those are the only secrets, how come the windows of the lodge are boarded up and blacked out during meeting times? (I lived across from a masonic lodge for many years.)

Because if you were allowed to peer through the windows you would observe the secret modes of recognition being taught to the new initiates.



Another question.... Exactly what happens at a lodge meeting? If there are no secrets about what happens (you said there were only 2 secrets, the levels of recognition and the oath), then let us know how a meeting works. What kinds of things take place? (I have a few masonic friends. I understand that they wouldn't talk to me, but they won't answer my husband either.) These are simple questions that don't require secrecy if there is truly nothing for them to hide.

There are business meetings in which lodge business takes place, such as voting on new member applications and so forth. But the main meetings of a blue lodge are to confer the degrees of masonry on new candidates. The first three degrees are taught through a ritual that is allegorical in nature. It is designed to teach the candidate moral and ethical principles, what is expected of every mason in terms of help to those who are poor or distressed, and so forth. A candidate is led through a ritual in which various things happen to him that teach him some moral lesson. Faithfulness, truthfulness, fair dealing, humility, etc. The are good moral principles, not taught to save anyone because it isn't a religion, but to encourage men to be upstanding and moral members of their community.

Many masons believe the rituals are secret, but they are not. The words associated with the degree, passwords if you will, are taught to the candidate as he moves about the lodge going through the allegorical "play" or "drama". At one point he will be asked to take an oath, called an "obligation" which he is told will not conflict to his duties to his family, his country, his God, or himself. The contents of this oath are also secret, but they generally have to do with promising certain moral conduct toward other masons and their families, and to keep secret those things that are secret, and not to involve himself with clandestine lodges that have broken away from the body of masonic Grand Lodges.

Many masons like to pretend that everything is secret because it makes them feel mysterious and cool. Everybody likes to pretend they know something you don't. Some folks really overplay this. Like the "G" in the middle of the square and compass masonic symbol. It stands for both God and for Geometry, a mathematical science that was certainly at the core of operative masonry when they were building things. The square represents the notion that we are to be square with all in our every day dealings. The compass is to circumscribe our actions and keep us within due bounds of proper behavior, not living wild wreckless lives.

I'm happy to answer any specific questions, though I will always honor my promise not to reveal any of the secret components of masonry. As a Past Master of the blue lodge I belonged to, I'm certainly qualified to answer any questions anyone has with factual information, not fantastic lies represented on the many antimasonic websites. Folks can also get factual information (as far as I have found) on www.masonicinfo.com (http://www.masonicinfo.com). I dont' endorse masonry for anyone, and I am no longer a member for reasons I've given. My only purpose in discussing this is to help folks know the truth so that they do not inadvertently spread slander and lies out of being deceived or out of ignorance.

FaithfulSheep
Dec 28th 2007, 08:07 PM
A candidate is led through a ritual in which various things happen to him that teach him some moral lesson.


Such as ?

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 08:08 PM
On the mother thing... something else that can cloud people's vision is that they are related to that person/connected to that thing(cult).

All analogies break down at some point. My only point in bringing up the mother thing is to point out that if we have intimate personal knowledge of something we are not inclined to pay much attention to those who dispute what we know who have not personal knowledge of the matter. That is all. I've had people tell me to go read this, that, and the other antimasonic website for the "real truth". Why would I believe such people when I was a mason for over 20 years, serving in positions of responsibility and leadership? In particular, the allegations of demonic connections, satanism, and so forth are just laughable.




Also, do the boyscouts prohibit the kids from speaking about their belief in Jesus(that would raise a anti-Messiah red flag for me, if so)? Another question I have, with all due respect, is... how is believing the testimonies of the emfj (http://www.emfj.org/index.html)different from us believing your testimony? Why believe you over them? :confused

I don't know what the Boy Scouts allow, but as I've said, I was not comfortable remaining in the lodge because religion cannot be discussed there and therefore I am prohibited from proclaiming my Lord and Savior. I do not want to be any place ever where I am not free to do that. I will not voluntarily put myself in that position. That is my objection, not the fatastic lies I read.

Second, you can believe whom you like. I am a Christian brother who is right here interacting with you, but I could indeed be a deceiver. But I would suggest it is wise to get to know some Christians who are or have been masons and judge the fruit of their lives for yourself before spreading slander read from a website. Anyone can post anything to a message board, and anyone can put anything they like on websites. Some of the people who have claimed to be former masons have been revealed as liars and fakes. I'm not looking to defame anyone, but if they happen to come up in conversation I'll discuss them. Just use good judgement and ask yourself if it is reasonable that so many Christian men, pastors, and even a great number of our founding fathers, were really satanists and demon-worshippers?

Brother James
Dec 28th 2007, 08:26 PM
Such as ?

Well, for example, upon entering the lodge a new Entered Apprentice is met by the Senior Deacon of the lodge who presses a sharp instrument against the candidate's naked left breast. It is actually not very sharp and does not hurt, but it is to remind the candidate that just as a sharp instrument can torture the flesh, so will his conscience torture him if he ever reveals any of the secrets he is about to receive.

Later, the Worshipful Master of the lodge will ask the man in whom he puts his trust. Candidate of course respond that their trust is in God, upon which he is told by teh Worshipful Master that his faith is well founded.

He is passed from officer to officer to be examined (ceremonially) to verify that he is indeed a qualified candidate - that he is a man freeborn of good character and who has been well recommended to the lodge. This is done with pomp and fluff to make it sound dramatic, partly to make an impression on the candidate, and partly because they guys conducting the ceremony have fun doing it.

I could go on and on, but this is pretty much it. There is a Bible at the center of the lodge and it is upon this Bible that the candidate places his hand to recite his obligation as a mason. In Jewish lodges this can be the Torah. In Muslim lodges, which do exist, it could be the Koran. The idea is that the obligation is considered sacred and the person is expected to regard it as such by putting his hand on the sacred book of his own religion. I know, this part does bother some Christians.

Any specific questions?

Brother Mark
Dec 28th 2007, 08:40 PM
What does Worshipful Master mean? Should any man be addressed that way?

diffangle
Dec 28th 2007, 09:12 PM
[quote=Brother James;1482420]Well, for example, upon entering the lodge a new Entered Apprentice is met by the Senior Deacon of the lodge who presses a sharp instrument against the candidate's naked left breast. It is actually not very sharp and does not hurt, but it is to remind the candidate that just as a sharp instrument can torture the flesh, so will his conscience torture him if he ever reveals any of the secrets he is about to receive.

Later, the Worshipful Master of the lodge will ask the man in whom he puts his trust. Candidate of course respond that their trust is in God, upon which he is told by teh Worshipful Master that his faith is well founded.

He is passed from officer to officer to be examined (ceremonially) to verify that he is indeed a qualified candidate - that he is a man freeborn of good character and who has been well recommended to the lodge. This is done with pomp and fluff to make it sound dramatic, partly to make an impression on the candidate, and partly because they guys conducting the ceremony have fun doing it.

I have the same question Mark has... should we call our fellow man "Worshipful" or "Master"?




I could go on and on, but this is pretty much it. There is a Bible at the center of the lodge and it is upon this Bible that the candidate places his hand to recite his obligation as a mason. In Jewish lodges this can be the Torah. In Muslim lodges, which do exist, it could be the Koran. The idea is that the obligation is considered sacred and the person is expected to regard it as such by putting his hand on the sacred book of his own religion. I know, this part does bother some Christians.

And yet, there can be no talk of your faith in Yahushua? :hmm: Very confusing.


Any specific questions?
What's involved in the hoodwinking process?

Seeker of truth
Dec 28th 2007, 09:19 PM
I have been following this thread and have been quiet as I do not know much about the freemasons. I will say the only one I would ever call Worshipful or Master is our Lord, not a fellow human being.

diffangle
Dec 28th 2007, 09:34 PM
[quote=Brother James;1482411]All analogies break down at some point. My only point in bringing up the mother thing is to point out that if we have intimate personal knowledge of something we are not inclined to pay much attention to those who dispute what we know who have not personal knowledge of the matter. That is all. I've had people tell me to go read this, that, and the other antimasonic website for the "real truth". Why would I believe such people when I was a mason for over 20 years, serving in positions of responsibility and leadership? In particular, the allegations of demonic connections, satanism, and so forth are just laughable.

Have you spent any time on the emfj website or message board? Since they were masons serving in positions of responsibility and leadership... do you believe they're lying about everything?




I don't know what the Boy Scouts allow, but as I've said, I was not comfortable remaining in the lodge because religion cannot be discussed there and therefore I am prohibited from proclaiming my Lord and Savior. I do not want to be any place ever where I am not free to do that. I will not voluntarily put myself in that position. That is my objection, not the fatastic lies I read.

It seems odd that religion can't be discussed since, as you say, you're only accepted if you have a belief in a god and you have Bibles around during your secret sword rituals.




Second, you can believe whom you like. I am a Christian brother who is right here interacting with you, but I could indeed be a deceiver. But I would suggest it is wise to get to know some Christians who are or have been masons and judge the fruit of their lives for yourself before spreading slander read from a website. Anyone can post anything to a message board, and anyone can put anything they like on websites.

The ex-Masons for Jesus have a message board where you can interact with them just as much as we are interacting with you. You've said several things in your posts that doesn't sit well with me when it comes to accepting the Masons(secrecy, swords, "Worshipful Masters", prohibition of discussing our Saviour, etc.) as a harmless fraternity.


Some of the people who have claimed to be former masons have been revealed as liars and fakes. I'm not looking to defame anyone, but if they happen to come up in conversation I'll discuss them.
Do you think the emfj are liars and fakes?



Just use good judgement and ask yourself if it is reasonable that so many Christian men, pastors, and even a great number of our founding fathers, were really satanists and demon-worshippers?

I believe that even Chrisitans can be decieved by the enemy:(...

Mat 24:24 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=24&version=KJV#24)For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

diffangle
Dec 28th 2007, 10:29 PM
Any specific questions?

Do you believe that vishnu and allah are the same god as YHWH?

Do the freemasons say that Yahushua or Hiram Abiff was killed, buried, and raised from the grave?

losthorizon
Dec 28th 2007, 11:19 PM
Again, the Boy Scouts do not require your boy to profess a belief in our God as Christians in order to join.

And “my boy” is not required to call his scout leader, “worshipful master” and he is not required to belong to a secret religious cult that preaches "another gospel", which runs contrary to the spirit of the Gospel of Christ. Jesus said, "I spoke openly in the world...in secret have I said nothing" (John 18:20).

Brother James
Dec 29th 2007, 02:52 AM
The master of the lodge is indeed called "Worshipful Master". To be worshipful is to be filled with worship, which I would hope I as a Christian would be towards God. And the master of the lodge is just that, the leader of that lodge for that year. Why does the term bother folks so? Wouldn't you hope that the pastor of your church is your worshipful pastor? I've actually known people who would not call their landlord "landlord" because only Jesus is their Lord, land or otherwise. That's just silly.


Do you believe that vishnu and allah are the same god as YHWH?


I'm a Christian, so what do you think? That's quite a question to ask a Christian. I can't even imagine what would prompt somebody to ask me a question like that, to be honest. Now, if you ask me if I think it would be wrong to eat at a table with a Muslim or a Hindu, I would say no. It would be wrong to refuse to assiciate with unbelievers. Jesus associated with unbelievers all the time.



And “my boy” is not required to call his scout leader, “worshipful master” and he is not required to belong to a secret religious cult that preaches "another gospel", which runs contrary to the spirit of the Gospel of Christ.

You call masonry a "secret religious cult that preaches another gospel" and yet you have never been a mason, right? But you have a Christian brother who tells you that such antimasonic rhetoric is incorrect, but you know better. It is like all these websites that tell masons that the real truth of masonry has been hidden from them, and yet these people who have never been involved in masonry somehow know all these secrets that the members themselves don't know. How credible is that? How would they know all these things that the fraternity keeps hidden from its own members? You have to use a little common sense and critical thinking about these claims if you are interested in the truth. Which I don't believe all antimasonic folks are interested in at all, frankly.


Have you spent any time on the emfj website or message board? Since they were masons serving in positions of responsibility and leadership... do you believe they're lying about everything?


I've read a good deal of the antimasonic rhetoric, and I've read some of the accounts at emfj. I do not say they are lying about everything, but I would say they put some very unique spins on things. I've never known of any masons who left over some of the claimed perversions or evils of masonry. I don't know who these people are or what their axe is to grind. I know what I know, though. You can tell me all day long that the sky is green, but I've seen the blue sky enough times to reject the thing you'd be trying to convince me of.

Now, the ex-masons for Jesus website does take a moderate position in that they simply claim the they believe being a mason is inconsistent with being a Christian. I've already said the same thing, which is why I'm not a mason today. It is when people begin to make the wild accusasations about worshiping false gods, or satanic or luciferian connections that I roll my eyes in bewilderment. I do believe that the founders of emfj.org have misunderstood the alegory of masonry and the moral principles they have tried to convey through their stories. Actually, I attribute much of the masonic ritual to a bit of childishness in many ways. Secret handshakes, secret passwords, and so forth. But not the evil people make it out to be.

Brother James
Dec 29th 2007, 02:59 AM
You've said several things in your posts that doesn't sit well with me when it comes to accepting the Masons(secrecy, swords, "Worshipful Masters", prohibition of discussing our Saviour, etc.) as a harmless fraternity.


I said nothing of swords, and I see nothing wrong with the leader of the lodge being called "worshipful" or "master". There is no prohibition of discussing our Savior specifically, only that religion and politics not to be discussed in the lodge room. That is because the principle is not to have disagreements and arguments on those subjects, which do divide men. The idea is to promote harmony. But I have a problem with this myself, which is why I'm not a mason today. I have not said such a thing is harmless, but it is at worse misguided. Not evil. There is good intention behind it. There are plenty of places where men can argue politics, but not in the lodge room. The same is true of religion, but I cannot voluntarily be compelled to be silent about Christ. I've already said that, but I'm not sure it was heard.



I believe that even Chrisitans can be decieved by the enemy:(...


Only to a point, but of course. I also believe they can be decieved to spread untruths about things they have no personal knowledge of, all with the best of intentions.

Brother James
Dec 29th 2007, 03:06 AM
Here's an example of what I referred to as "spin" previously:



If a man has bought into the Masonic lie that all men worship the same god, simply using a variety of different names, then he cannot be worshiping in truth. Therefore, he cannot be worshiping God when he goes into the lodge.

The masonic lodge is not a church or a place of worship. All masons know this, which is why I doubt this was written by a mason. The lodge is a place of fellowship. If I refer to God, I know I am referring to the God of the Bible. I can discuss Godly principles with a Muslim even if I know that his concept of God is Allah, a false god. We can agree on moral principles of upright living and commitment to our fellow man even if we hold different concepts of the God/god we respectively worship. Masonry never ever tells men that they are worshiping the same god, but this quote seems to indicate such a teaching. This is another reason I don't believe a mason, or ex-mason, wrote this. The entire page on which this quote is found consists of twistings of the truth to present masonry as something sinister that it is not.

losthorizon
Dec 29th 2007, 03:23 AM
...You call masonry a "secret religious cult that preaches another gospel" and yet you have never been a mason, right?
I have never been a Mormon either but I recognize a secret cult that teaches “another gospel” when I see one. And Freemasonry by any other name...

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 02:53 PM
Now, as far as belief in God, the masonic fraternity only requires that a member profess a belief in God.

What for if it's not a religious organization? The Republican and Democratic parties don't require that there members profess any religious beliefs.



They do not tell members what form their belief must take, or prescribe any doctrine.

From the Heirloom Masonic Bible, page 55...


"Resurrection - Does Freemasonry teach that the body shall be raised and given eternal existence.


A. The doctrine of the resurrection of the body to a future and eternal life constitutes an essential dogma of the religious faith of Freemasonry. The requirement for adherence to this doctrine holds equal rank with the demand for belief in Deity and in the immortality of the soul. It is more authoritatively inculcated in the symbolism of the Third Degree than is possible by any dogmatic creed. Throughout the ritualisms, symbolisms, legends, and lectures of the Order, these doctrines are affirmed."



"Doctrine, dogma, the religious faith of freemasonry, demand for belief in diety, doctrines"... sounds like religious speak to me. ;)

They leave that to the individual conscience, just like the Democratic party of the Republican party do. Or the Boy Scouts for that matter. Because the Boy Scouts allow a Jewish boy to join, would you keep your child out?
Depends, are there secret religious rituals with "worshipful masters" going on in the Boy Scouts? If so, then no I wouldn't let my child join.

So, would you not let your son join the boy scouts because they only require a belief in God, not specifically Jesus Christ?
Do the Boy Scouts require that members believe in a god?



Masonry does not call upon any other deity. It simply leaves the decision as to who God is to the individual member.


They call upon GAOTU which can be YHWH, vishnu, allah, etc. How can a Chrisitan be in a sworn oath and broterhood at a religious ritual with a Muslim who worships allah/demon and not sense how wrong that is?1Cr 10:21 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=10&v=21&version=KJV#21)Ye cannot drink the cup of YHWH, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of YHWH's table, and of the table of devils.


2Cr 6:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=6&v=14&version=KJV#14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Mat 5:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=34&version=kjv#34)But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Mat 5:35 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=35&version=kjv#35)Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Mat 5:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=36&version=kjv#36)Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Mat 5:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=37&version=kjv#37)But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Being in a worshipful ritual with worshipful believer's of demons is very Universalistic... very One World religion.

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 04:16 PM
[quote=Brother James;1482405]Because if you were allowed to peer through the windows you would observe the secret modes of recognition being taught to the new initiates.

What are the "secret modes of recognition" that are being taught? How accurate is this statement from the emfj site (http://www.emfj.org/pastors.htm)...




Masons are highly motivated not to divulge the truth about Freemasonry for two major reasons. First, they have taken oaths to keep such information confidential. The first of the oaths, taken while a man is blindfolded, with a rope around his neck contains the following words:
I, (name) of my own free will and accord, in the presence of Almighty God and this Worshipful Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons, . . . solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, that I will always hele, forever conceal, and never reveal any of the secret arts, parts, or points of the hidden mysteries of Freemasonry, which I have received, am about to receive, or may be hereafter instructed in, to any person unless it shall be to a worthy Brother Entered Apprentice, or within the body of a just and duly constituted Lodge. . . . Furthermore: I do promise and swear that I will not write, indite, print, paint, stamp, stain, hue, cut, carve, mark or engrave the same upon anything movable or immovable, whereby or whereon the least word, syllable, letter, or character may become legible or intelligible to myself or another, whereby the secrets of Freemasonry may be unlawfully obtained through my unworthiness. To all of which I do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind in me whatsoever; binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice. So help me God and make me steadfast to keep and perform the same.
Masons do not take these oaths, which they prefer to call "obligations," lightly.

Are those the "secret modes of recognition"?



There are business meetings in which lodge business takes place, such as voting on new member applications and so forth. But the main meetings of a blue lodge are to confer the degrees of masonry on new candidates. The first three degrees are taught through a ritual that is allegorical in nature. It is designed to teach the candidate moral and ethical principles, what is expected of every mason in terms of help to those who are poor or distressed, and so forth.

If such great morals are being taught, then why the neccessity to keep it secret?


A candidate is led through a ritual in which various things happen to him that teach him some moral lesson. Faithfulness, truthfulness, fair dealing, humility, etc.
What are the "various things" that happen in the ritual?


The are good moral principles, not taught to save anyone because it isn't a religion, but to encourage men to be upstanding and moral members of their community.
If it's not a religion then why require a belief in a god? Why have rituals with "worshipful masters"?



Many masons believe the rituals are secret, but they are not. The words associated with the degree, passwords if you will, are taught to the candidate as he moves about the lodge going through the allegorical "play" or "drama". At one point he will be asked to take an oath, called an "obligation" which he is told will not conflict to his duties to his family, his country, his God, or himself. The contents of this oath are also secret, but they generally have to do with promising certain moral conduct toward other masons and their families, and to keep secret those things that are secret, and not to involve himself with clandestine lodges that have broken away from the body of masonic Grand Lodges.

Reminds me of religious speak...

1Cr 5:11 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=5&v=11&version=KJV#11)But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.



Many masons like to pretend that everything is secret because it makes them feel mysterious and cool. Everybody likes to pretend they know something you don't. Some folks really overplay this. Like the "G" in the middle of the square and compass masonic symbol. It stands for both God and for Geometry, a mathematical science that was certainly at the core of operative masonry when they were building things. The square represents the notion that we are to be square with all in our every day dealings. The compass is to circumscribe our actions and keep us within due bounds of proper behavior, not living wild wreckless lives.

I'm happy to answer any specific questions, though I will always honor my promise not to reveal any of the secret components of masonry.

If the secrets are "pretend", "a bit childish", " little boyish", "there is nothing secret that really amounts to a hill of beans", and you "have no love for masonry" then why keep the secret components secret? Why not repent for oaths taken in darkness and then reveal them to the world? It seems that you are still binding yourself with the "de facto racists organization" who "prohibits one from proclaiming Yahushua" in their social chambers.


Luk 11:33 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=11&v=33&version=KJV#33)No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth [it] in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

Luk 12:3 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=12&v=3&version=KJV#3)Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

Jhn 3:20 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&v=20&version=KJV#20)For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 3:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=21&version=kjv#21)But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.




As a Past Master of the blue lodge I belonged to, I'm certainly qualified to answer any questions anyone has with factual information, not fantastic lies represented on the many antimasonic websites. Folks can also get factual information (as far as I have found) on www.masonicinfo.com (http://www.masonicinfo.com/). I dont' endorse masonry for anyone, and I am no longer a member for reasons I've given. My only purpose in discussing this is to help folks know the truth so that they do not inadvertently spread slander and lies out of being deceived or out of ignorance.

Does masonry speak of the death, buriel, and resurrection of Yahushua or Hiram Abiff? What's involved in hoodwinking?

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 04:25 PM
I was not comfortable remaining in the lodge because religion cannot be discussed there and therefore I am prohibited from proclaiming my Lord and Savior. I do not want to be any place ever where I am not free to do that. I will not voluntarily put myself in that position. That is my objection, not the fatastic lies I read.


Yet it took you 20 years before you became uncomfortable being in a voluntary "de facto racist organization" that "prohibits you from proclaiming Yahushua"?

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 04:33 PM
[quote=Brother James;1482420]Well, for example, upon entering the lodge a new Entered Apprentice is met by the Senior Deacon of the lodge who presses a sharp instrument against the candidate's naked left breast. It is actually not very sharp and does not hurt, but it is to remind the candidate that just as a sharp instrument can torture the flesh, so will his conscience torture him if he ever reveals any of the secrets he is about to receive.

Is this when the apprentice takes the oath swearing to "binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark" ?



Later, the Worshipful Master of the lodge will ask the man in whom he puts his trust. Candidate of course respond that their trust is in God, upon which he is told by teh Worshipful Master that his faith is well founded.

Nothing religious about Freemasonry huh?



He is passed from officer to officer to be examined (ceremonially) to verify that he is indeed a qualified candidate - that he is a man freeborn of good character and who has been well recommended to the lodge. This is done with pomp and fluff to make it sound dramatic, partly to make an impression on the candidate, and partly because they guys conducting the ceremony have fun doing it.

Is this when the apprentice plays the role of the killed, buried, and resurrected Hiram Abiff?



I could go on and on, but this is pretty much it. There is a Bible at the center of the lodge and it is upon this Bible that the candidate places his hand to recite his obligation as a mason. In Jewish lodges this can be the Torah. In Muslim lodges, which do exist, it could be the Koran. The idea is that the obligation is considered sacred and the person is expected to regard it as such by putting his hand on the sacred book of his own religion. I know, this part does bother some Christians.

Any specific questions?

Again, nothing religious about Freemasonry?

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 04:44 PM
I'm a Christian, so what do you think? That's quite a question to ask a Christian. I can't even imagine what would prompt somebody to ask me a question like that, to be honest.
Hey ol' Skull and Bones secret society prez Bush is suppossedly a Christian and says that allah is the same god as YHWH. :P It's really not such a crazy question considering that you are perfectly okay with swearing oaths to and participating in worshipful ceremonies to a great architect of the universe that can be allah or vishnu to the guy standing next to you.


Now, if you ask me if I think it would be wrong to eat at a table with a Muslim or a Hindu, I would say no. It would be wrong to refuse to assiciate with unbelievers. Jesus associated with unbelievers all the time.
I agree with you here. Eating with unbelievers in order to be a witness of Yahushua is definately Scriptural but binding yourself to and participating in their acts of darkness is not.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Eph 5:11

threebigrocks
Dec 29th 2007, 05:04 PM
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Eph 5:11

Evenutally, no matter how darkness is clothed, the Light will be shed on it. All things will be exposed for what they are. Until that day, we use discernment.

I would drag my son, all 180 pounds of him, kicking and screaming, away from anything that spoke things such as the Mason's do. You want a civic organization - band together with other Christians and just do what is expected of us as Christians.

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 05:22 PM
[quote=threebigrocks;1483241]Evenutally, no matter how darkness is clothed, the Light will be shed on it. All things will be exposed for what they are. Until that day, we use discernment.

Exactly, that's why there are plenty of ex-Masons out there that are exposing it for what it is.



I would drag my son, all 180 pounds of him, kicking and screaming, away from anything that spoke things such as the Mason's do. You want a civic organization - band together with other Christians and just do what is expected of us as Christians.

Yep, when churches help the needy they give glory to YHWH/Yahushua, when the masons do charity they give glory to the masons... the whole "masons bear good fruit with their charity" is always the first thing a mason says when anything unglorifying is said about them.

Mat 6:2 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=2&version=KJV#2) Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mat 6:3 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=3&version=KJV#3) But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

Mat 6:4 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=4&version=KJV#4) That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 05:41 PM
I said nothing of swords, and I see nothing wrong with the leader of the lodge being called "worshipful" or "master".
Oops my mistake, correction... "a sharp instrument against the candidate's naked left breast". Why grown men would submit themselves to this kind of bizarre ritual is beyond me, seriously... didn't you kind of feel like you were in the twilght zone when this was going on? :eek:

Jollyrogers
Dec 29th 2007, 07:06 PM
Do you believe that vishnu and allah are the same god as YHWH?

I'm a Christian, so what do you think? That's quite a question to ask a Christian. I can't even imagine what would prompt somebody to ask me a question like that, to be honest. Now, if you ask me if I think it would be wrong to eat at a table with a Muslim or a Hindu, I would say no. It would be wrong to refuse to assiciate with unbelievers. Jesus associated with unbelievers all the time.


Not to get off subject, But it is a very valid question to ask anyone who claims to be Christian. It is eye opening to see how many people who claim to be christians believe that all religions lead to the same god. Oprah teaches it on her tv show and she is suspose to be christian (baptist no less). Even our President has made statements on National TV indicating that he believes that all religions serve the same god.

Brother James
Dec 30th 2007, 12:20 AM
What are the "secret modes of recognition" that are being taught? How accurate is this statement from the emfj site (http://www.emfj.org/pastors.htm)...



I find many untrue statements at that site, many misrepresentations, and many twists of the truth into lies.



Are those the "secret modes of recognition"?


The modes of recognition consist of handshakes and passwords, as I've said before.



If such great morals are being taught, then why the neccessity to keep it secret?


They are not secret, Only the modes by which masons recognize each other are secrets.




What are the "various things" that happen in the ritual?



I've given some examples. The member being intiated is escorted from station to station where questions are asked or lessons taught by the officers of the lodge.




If it's not a religion then why require a belief in a god? Why have rituals with "worshipful masters"?

Reminds me of religious speak...


The belief is that the oath of an atheist is untrustworthy. A solemn oath made before God will make a man think twice before breaking it, while an atheist would not feel himself bound to an oath for any sacred reason. I know many Christians dont' believe in oaths, nor do I, but that is the thinking and the teaching. It might be wrong, but it is hardly satanic.




1Cr 5:11 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=5&v=11&version=KJV#11)But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.



Yes, scripture is clear that we are not to have such people in the church or call them brothers.



If the secrets are "pretend", "a bit childish", " little boyish", "there is nothing secret that really amounts to a hill of beans", and you "have no love for masonry" then why keep the secret components secret? Why not repent for oaths taken in darkness and then reveal them to the world? It seems that you are still binding yourself with the "de facto racists organization" who "prohibits one from proclaiming Yahushua" in their social chambers.

I took an oath and I have no reason to disclose anything that I agreed to keep secret. I do not lightly cast aside a solemn promise just because I've changed my mind about something. If there was a good and Godly reason to reveal the secrets of masonry I would do so without hesitation, but I know of none presently.




Does masonry speak of the death, buriel, and resurrection of Yahushua...

No


or Hiram Abiff? What's involved in hoodwinking?

Yes with regard to Hiram Abiff. Hiram Abiff is allegory. He is used to teach a lesson in faithfulness. Hoodwinking is nothing more than being blindfolded while being escorted around during the Entered Apprentice initiation.

Brother James
Dec 30th 2007, 12:23 AM
Not to get off subject, But it is a very valid question to ask anyone who claims to be Christian. It is eye opening to see how many people who claim to be christians believe that all religions lead to the same god. Oprah teaches it on her tv show and she is suspose to be christian (baptist no less). Even our President has made statements on National TV indicating that he believes that all religions serve the same god.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the light". He said that no one can come to the Father but by Him. There is only one path to eternal life, and that is through Christ Jesus. Yes, I know, "Christian" has unfortunately come to mean many things. Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - is the one true God, and all others are false. I hope that clarifies what I mean when I say I am a Christian.

Brother James
Dec 30th 2007, 12:29 AM
[quote]



Nothing religious about Freemasonry huh?





Again, nothing religious about Freemasonry?

I never said there was nothing religious about Freemasonry. You are "huh-ing" something I never said. Freemasonry is filled with religious imagery, drawing from the building of Solomon's temple. Prayer is said in the lodge. I'm not sure what you're arguing with these statements.

What I've said is that it is not a church, and it is not a religion. It draws from primarily Christianity and Judaism to teach moral lessons. That is what I've said.

Brother James
Dec 30th 2007, 12:32 AM
Yet it took you 20 years before you became uncomfortable being in a voluntary "de facto racist organization" that "prohibits you from proclaiming Yahushua"?

Sure. Look, I'm 53 years old and I've served the Lord for about 10 years now. For much of my life I didn't give a hoot proclaiming Christ, or even believe on Him. Didn't you have such a period in your own life?

Grace40
Dec 30th 2007, 02:42 AM
Sure. Look, I'm 53 years old and I've served the Lord for about 10 years now. For much of my life I didn't give a hoot proclaiming Christ, or even believe on Him. Didn't you have such a period in your own life?

Your new here James, don't let them run you off. I've know alot of good men that are masons. My dad is a mason and a Christian. I think it is more for fellowship than anything else.:)

losthorizon
Dec 30th 2007, 05:10 AM
[quote=diffangle;1483207]...What I've said is that it is not a church, and it is not a religion. It draws from primarily Christianity and Judaism to teach moral lessons. That is what I've said.
James – I would suggest you do a little more research on Freemasonry. Unfortunately, most members of that organization only see the surface and do not understand the deeper implications of what is involved in "the Craft" at the higher levels of involvement. Freemasonry has a plan of salvation and as such it is a religion in every sense of that word.

When asked if Freemasonry was a religion Albert Mackey (Past General Grand High Priest - General Chapter, USA) who authored the book, “The Encyclopedia of Masonry” agreed “without any sort of hesitation” that it was a religion,
"On the contrary, we contend, without any sort of hesitation, that Freemasonry is, in every sense of the word, except one, and that its least philosophical, an eminently religious institution—that it is indebted solely to the religious element it contains for its origin as well as its continued existence, and that without this religious element it would scarcely be worthy to cultivate on by the wise and good.""No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other.” (Luke16)

Brother James
Dec 30th 2007, 03:23 PM
[quote=Brother James;1483658]
James – I would suggest you do a little more research on Freemasonry.



Research? Oh, come on. I was a mason for 20 years, passing through every degree and serving as worshipful master of my blue lodge. I learned vast amounts of material from memory. Research? What kind of research are you talking about? Reading material from people who have never been inside a lodge in their lives? Surely you must recognize how absurd that suggestion seems.




Unfortunately, most members of that organization only see the surface and do not understand the deeper implications of what is involved in "the Craft" at the higher levels of involvement.


I keep asking, but nobody will answer. Where did you find this information that I missed for 20 years of intimate involvement in Freemasonry? First of all, there is no "higher degree" than that of being a master mason. However, the Scottish Rite does confer degrees 4-32, though they are not "higher" other than in the numbering of them, and then there is Royal Arch masonry as well. Then there is the Ancient Arabic Order of Nobles of the Mystic Shrine, other wise known as the Shriners founded in 1870 as a fun outreach offshoot of masonry. Now, if a man has passed through all of these, serves in positions of leadership in both his blue lodge and the Grand Lodge, why would you say that is only seeing the surface. That is far from superficial. If I, a very involved mason, never discovered these "deeper implications of what is involved... at the higher levels of involvement", how did you happen to come across it? They managed to keep it secret from me for 20 years, and yet you've somehow stumbled across this information? Pray tell, where did you find it?



Freemasonry has a plan of salvation and as such it is a religion in every sense of that word.

That is not true, and you are saying things you know nothing about. Sorry, but that is the truth.




When asked if Freemasonry was a religion Albert Mackey (Past General Grand High Priest - General Chapter, USA) who authored the book, “The Encyclopedia of Masonry” agreed “without any sort of hesitation” that it was a religion,
"On the contrary, we contend, without any sort of hesitation, that Freemasonry is, in every sense of the word, except one, and that its least philosophical, an eminently religious institution—that it is indebted solely to the religious element it contains for its origin as well as its continued existence, and that without this religious element it would scarcely be worthy to cultivate on by the wise and good.""No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other.” (Luke16)

Just about all antimasonic rhetoric stems from two individuals, Albert Mackey and Albert Pike. Both of these men were fascinated with ancient mysteries and societies, and their study. Serious modern day students of Freemasonry consider both of them as mystics and oddballs. In his later years, Mackey actually recanted those portions of his writings that smacked of paganism. Nevertheless, he may indeed have believed that Freemasonry was his personal religion. His personal opinion, written at the height of fascination with secret societies and such in the 1840's, is in no way any official statement for all of masonry. He was Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of South Carolina, by the way. He had no special authority to speak on behalf all Freemasonry.

Jollyrogers
Dec 30th 2007, 07:27 PM
[quote=losthorizon;1483883]

Just about all antimasonic rhetoric stems from two individuals, Albert Mackey and Albert Pike. Both of these men were fascinated with ancient mysteries and societies, and their study. Serious modern day students of Freemasonry consider both of them as mystics and oddballs. In his later years, Mackey actually recanted those portions of his writings that smacked of paganism. Nevertheless, he may indeed have believed that Freemasonry was his personal religion. His personal opinion, written at the height of fascination with secret societies and such in the 1840's, is in no way any official statement for all of masonry. He was Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of South Carolina, by the way. He had no special authority to speak on behalf all Freemasonry.


If this is true then why do they still give 32 degree masons Pikes book "Morals and Dogma??

losthorizon
Dec 30th 2007, 09:44 PM
...That is not true, and you are saying things you know nothing about. Sorry, but that is the truth.

Just about all antimasonic rhetoric stems from two individuals, Albert Mackey and Albert Pike. Both of these men were fascinated with ancient mysteries and societies, and their study. Serious modern day students of Freemasonry consider both of them as mystics and oddballs. In his later years, Mackey actually recanted those portions of his writings that smacked of paganism. Nevertheless, he may indeed have believed that Freemasonry was his personal religion. His personal opinion, written at the height of fascination with secret societies and such in the 1840's, is in no way any official statement for all of masonry. He was Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of South Carolina, by the way. He had no special authority to speak on behalf all Freemasonry.
I guess the question that goes begging is this - were Mackey and Pike really the “oddballs” that Masons claim or were they simply Masons who spilled too many of the beans and now they are written off as kooks to cover up the beans that they spilled? Mackey’s book is fairly definitive and certainly reveals much about this “secret society”.

I will offer the following definition of "religion" that I consider to be representative of what that word means and you tell me if Freemasonry is a religion:
"Religion is a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience." WikipediaFreemasons meet in a building referred to as a “temple”; Masons offer prayers to an unidentifiable deity referred to as "The Architect of the Universe"; and Masons have a "sacred altar" where they keep a copy of their “holy book”. Masons have codified rituals and religious laws, cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology.

As a third degree Mason were you not taught that your soul is immortal and those in the Lodge found “worthy enough” (??) will have a place reserved from them in "the celestial lodge above.'' This all sounds pretty “religious” to me and I read nothing about Freemasonry in my Bible so it must not be from God – maybe from man or maybe some other origin??

Brother James
Dec 31st 2007, 01:29 AM
[quote=Brother James;1484082]


If this is true then why do they still give 32 degree masons Pikes book "Morals and Dogma??

Let me answer your question. How is it that I was a 32nd degree mason and I've never laid eyes on that book? Your question is like asking me when did I stop beating up my wife. I don't know where you heard such a rumor but I've never heard of the Scottish Rite giving anyone a copy of Albert Pike's book. The vast majority of masons, 32nd degree or otherwise, have never even seen that book but antimasonic folks drag it out to somehow prove how evil masonry is. All because they believe a lie they read on some website or in some antimasonic book.

Brother James
Dec 31st 2007, 02:02 AM
I guess the question that goes begging is this - were Mackey and Pike really the “oddballs” that Masons claim or were they simply Masons who spilled too many of the beans and now they are written off as kooks to cover up the beans that they spilled? Mackey’s book is fairly definitive and certainly reveals much about this “secret society”.

Well, that is how conspiracy theories are built, isn't it? Is it really credible that all of the pastors, deacons, and Godly Christian men whose life bears the fruit of the gospel could actually be satan worshippers? What did Jesus say about those who accused him and his disciples of casting out devils by Satan? This is a grasping of straws. Your comment comes quite close to calling folks like me liars without actually saying that. I'd want to be a whole lot more sure of what I was talking about before I'd do that with another Spirit-filled believer.




I will offer the following definition of "religion" that I consider to be representative of what that word means and you tell me if Freemasonry is a religion:
"Religion is a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience." WikipediaFreemasons meet in a building referred to as a “temple”; Masons offer prayers to an unidentifiable deity referred to as "The Architect of the Universe"; and Masons have a "sacred altar" where they keep a copy of their “holy book”. Masons have codified rituals and religious laws, cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology.

Masons have no religious laws. They have no mythology. Allegory is not myth. Myth is something that is believed to have been true. Masons know that their rituals are made-up stories to teach lessons. There is no personal faith in masonry. A Jew, Muslim, and Holy Ghost filled Christian can all be masons. Many organizations have writings but are not religions. Cultural traditions don't constitute relition. Brides not seeing the groom on the wedding day until the ceremony is a cultural tradition. That is not a religious tenent. Masons call the place they meet a "Masonic Temple" because they use allegories based on the building of King Solomon's temple. No mason things of that building as a place of worship, or a temple in the religious sense. That is an utter misunderstanding by non-masons. The altar and Bible are symbolic as well, certainly not a place of religious worship but a place of allegorical teaching.





As a third degree Mason were you not taught that your soul is immortal and those in the Lodge found “worthy enough” (??) will have a place reserved from them in "the celestial lodge above.'' This all sounds pretty “religious” to me and I read nothing about Freemasonry in my Bible so it must not be from God – maybe from man or maybe some other origin??

No, not those "found worthy enough". That is never said. The "celestial lodge above" is heaven and the "Supreme Grand Master" is God. Yes, the master mason lecture does draw upon religious allegory. I've never said it doesn't. I've acknowledged that the building of the temple at Jerusalem by Solomon is the foundation of the religious symbology.

To a Christian, the symbology refers to Christ and Christ alone. The new mason is told "death, which without revelation would b edark and gloomy, but we are suddenly revided by that ever green and ever living sprig of Faith, which strengthens us with confidence and composure, to look forward to a blessed immortality and we dount not that on the glorious morn of resurrection our bodies will rise and become as incorruptible as our souls". This it patently Christian in nature. Muslims believe in no such bodily resurrection, nor do Jews. But this is merely a reminder of the religious principles most masons, who are Christian, already hold true. And it introduces the notion to those who are not Christian. The true meaning of this is left to the individual, but there can be no doubt that this kind of teaching was introduced to masonry by Christians.

Now, if your standard is that you avoid anything not mentioned in your Bible you must avoid all sorts of things. Public education is not mentioned in your Bible. It is of God? Is it okay to send kids to school? What about joining the PTA at your child's school? In fact, there is nothing in your Bible about Baptists or Methodists or Lutherans or Presbyterians either. Would you label them as satanic or luciferian?

I'm not recommending masonry to anyone. I think I've made that clear. I'm not an apologist for the virtue of masonry. I merely seek to correct the utterly misguided things Christian people do in the name of God but which are really vicious lies that cause harm. Accusing other Christian brothers of worshipping Satan is not something to be done lightly or ignorantly - not saying you're doing that, but it is that sort of statement that caused me to address this subject at all. Christians are capable of great wickedness out of good intentions, both masons and non-masons. Spreading vicious lies is wickedness, even when done out of ignorance. We need to know the things we speak evil of.

diffangle
Dec 31st 2007, 02:47 AM
The belief is that the oath of an atheist is untrustworthy. A solemn oath made before God will make a man think twice before breaking it, while an atheist would not feel himself bound to an oath for any sacred reason.

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers.
Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. Surah 9:2-3

Fellow Muslim freemason brothers are just as untrustworthy as any atheist.




I never said there was nothing religious about Freemasonry. You are "huh-ing" something I never said. Freemasonry is filled with religious imagery, drawing from the building of Solomon's temple. Prayer is said in the lodge. I'm not sure what you're arguing with these statements.

What I've said is that it is not a church, and it is not a religion. It draws from primarily Christianity and Judaism to teach moral lessons. That is what I've said.
An assembly that performs religious cerimonies when gathered is a religion/church.

Church= ekklēsia (Strong's G1577) meaning...

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly


Sure. Look, I'm 53 years old and I've served the Lord for about 10 years now. For much of my life I didn't give a hoot proclaiming Christ, or even believe on Him. Didn't you have such a period in your own life?
How long were you a believer before you quit the Masons?


Btw James, I'm not trying to "run you off" as someone else said, I just don't believe the Masons are a organization that Christians should be involved in(even strictly based on the things you've said)... I'm truely praying for you, so please don't take my comments and questions as an attempt to "run you off". I don't want you to go anywhere, this is a good place for you to be.

Jollyrogers
Dec 31st 2007, 03:34 AM
Let me answer your question. How is it that I was a 32nd degree mason and I've never laid eyes on that book? Your question is like asking me when did I stop beating up my wife. I don't know where you heard such a rumor but I've never heard of the Scottish Rite giving anyone a copy of Albert Pike's book. The vast majority of masons, 32nd degree or otherwise, have never even seen that book but antimasonic folks drag it out to somehow prove how evil masonry is. All because they believe a lie they read on some website or in some antimasonic book.


What I am saying was not learned from a website. I have several friends who are Masons including the Chief of the Police Department I use to work for. I asked him if he had a copy and he showed it to me (they were trying to recruit me into the local lodge btw). He personally told me that they were presented to everyone who achieved the 32nd degree and that is where he had gotten it. Obviously the Masons still hold some importance in that book since they still give it out (unless they stopped since Aug of 2004 when Larry got his 32nd degree). It is because of some of the things that I personally have read in that book that I will not join even though many of my family members either were or are members. He states in there that you (the initiate) are lied to when you join. That was enough for me.

Brother James
Dec 31st 2007, 03:53 AM
I received the 32nd degree in 1981 and was given no such book. And, I've never heard of anyone receiving that book in that way. So what you tell me simply doesn't jive with my own experience. In fact, I've never heard that book ever brought up by any mason in my 20 years of membership. The only time I've ever heard it brought up is in the context of anti-masonic rhetoric. Go figure.

Now, back to allegory. Do you think C.S. Lewis was a Christian? What do you think of his Chronicles of Narnia? C.S. Lewis once wrote of Aslan, when asked if he was an allegory of Christ, ""By an allegory I mean a composition (whether pictorial or literary) in which immaterial realities are represented as feigned physical objects; e.g., ... in Bunyan, a giant represents Despair. If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity in the same way in which Giant Despair represents Despair, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality however he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, 'What might Christ become like, if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as he actually has done in ours?' This is not allegory at all."

Now, whether you call something allegory or not, there is nothing inherently unChristian in taking Christian-like principles and speaking of them in terms of moral principles geared for any audience whether Christian or not. That is all masonry has done, which seems to cause all sorts of consternation. That particular aspect of masonry causes me no consternation at all.

Now, it has been implied that maybe I'm the liar about all of this and the anti-masonic zealots are really the ones telling the truth. How would that make any sense. I've already said I despised the fact for many years that no black man was ever made a mason in my presence. It was virtually impossible for it to happen, and the Prince Hall black masons were not recognized in most North American Grand Lodges until very recently. There are still 11 that don't recognize them. I think that is abominable, sinful, and downright wrong. To refuse to associate with a black man does not emulate Christ in any way, shape, of form and such attituded stem from hatred and wickedness. That is a far more negative aspect of masonry than any of this Albert Pike demon-worship nonsense.

Brother James
Dec 31st 2007, 04:03 AM
An assembly that performs religious cerimonies when gathered is a religion/church.



Correct. I've never attended a worship service, or religious ceremony at a masonic lodge in my life.



Church= ekklēsia (Strong's G1577) meaning...

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly


I guess your local Republican party is a church then.




How long were you a believer before you quit the Masons?



Probably about 5 years, though I quit attending meetings or being involved before that. It took a while to actually send the letter of resignation, but since I had long ago stopped paying dues it seemed good to take that formal step.



Btw James, I'm not trying to "run you off" as someone else said, I just don't believe the Masons are a organization that Christians should be involved in(even strictly based on the things you've said)...


Oh, I don't run off that easily. I have not advocated Christians becoming involved with the masons. If you think I have you're reading something into my writing that is not there, and that would be something for you to examine. What I have argued against are the fantasical claims about all manner of vile evil stemming from the mason. Those things are alarmist rhetoric constructed to cause fear and are untrue. If I know something to be untrue that people who call themselves Christians keep repeating, I believe I have an obligation to speak up. If I accused the pastor of your church of some vile heinous act, and you knew it to be a lie, would you not speak up? That may not be a good analogy, but it hopefully illustrates what I mean.



I'm truely praying for you, so please don't take my comments and questions as an attempt to "run you off". I don't want you to go anywhere, this is a good place for you to be.

I can use prayers of all my Christian brother and sisters, but not over masonry. I have answsered each of your questions as directly and truthfully as I know how. I will continue to do so. But it seems to me that I am not the one with a problem, whereas you seem not to believe that you have true Bible-believing Spirit-filled brothers who are members of the masonic lodge. None of us are righteous and free of misguided beliefs and actions in our own strength. I know men who are masons today who I would go to if I were in need of intercessory prayer, because they have not felt the same conviction to leave the lodge that I have and I know the Christian fruits in their lives. You, on the other hand, would possibly judge them harshly because of things you've been deceived about.

Jollyrogers
Dec 31st 2007, 04:40 AM
See you bring me to a fine point. I have you, who claims to have been a Mason, and I have the group in the local town whom I know most of them, (I live in Alabama). You both claim to have knowledge however you try to defraud that book whereas they were given that book. In fact I was watching the Police Dept the day Larry went for whatever it is he had to do to get his 32nd degree and when he got back he showed me what he had been given. I picked up the book in particular since I recognised the name and asked him about it. He stated that "Everyone who recieved the 32 that day had been given it".

I say that to say this. Put yourself in my shoes. I am an outsider. I am listening to your statements and what I know of and have seen personally from "the locals". You are both contradicting each other. Why would I want to join a group that can not make up its own mind as to what it is.


It is a religion, but then it is not even though it has ideals similiar to religions and requires a belief in a god??
Albert Pike is a looney but my chief walks in with his book having just been presented to him
They claim to be christian however you can not mention Christ in the meetings
They claim to make men better but the men in my hometown lodge are the biggest crooks in town (not the lodge mentioned above)
They claim to be connected to the temple yet their ceremonies have nothing to do with the biblical temple, and are alot closer to what the Mormans do in their temple than what went on in the temple of Solomon
They claim to help everybody however having watched them, they put their brothers ahead of anyone who is not a member.
They claim that anyone can be a member, however they refuse to recognise the black lodges (Prince hall) Yes even in Alabama even though Prince Hall is a revolutionary war hero and had a charter from the home office in LondonI could go on, but the point is made. I have a hard time believing anything anybody says cause the next person who claims to be a Mason will deny what was previously said. I am glad I never joined

losthorizon
Dec 31st 2007, 04:59 AM
...No, not those "found worthy enough". That is never said. The "celestial lodge above" is heaven and the "Supreme Grand Master" is God. Yes, the master mason lecture does draw upon religious allegory. I've never said it doesn't. I've acknowledged that the building of the temple at Jerusalem by Solomon is the foundation of the religious symbology.

To a Christian, the symbology refers to Christ and Christ alone. The new mason is told "death, which without revelation would b edark and gloomy, but we are suddenly revided by that ever green and ever living sprig of Faith, which strengthens us with confidence and composure, to look forward to a blessed immortality and we dount not that on the glorious morn of resurrection our bodies will rise and become as incorruptible as our souls". This it patently Christian in nature. Muslims believe in no such bodily resurrection, nor do Jews. But this is merely a reminder of the religious principles most masons, who are Christian, already hold true. And it introduces the notion to those who are not Christian. The true meaning of this is left to the individual, but there can be no doubt that this kind of teaching was introduced to masonry by Christians.

Now, if your standard is that you avoid anything not mentioned in your Bible you must avoid all sorts of things. Public education is not mentioned in your Bible. It is of God? Is it okay to send kids to school? What about joining the PTA at your child's school? In fact, there is nothing in your Bible about Baptists or Methodists or Lutherans or Presbyterians either. Would you label them as satanic or luciferian?

I'm not recommending masonry to anyone. I think I've made that clear. I'm not an apologist for the virtue of masonry. I merely seek to correct the utterly misguided things Christian people do in the name of God but which are really vicious lies that cause harm. Accusing other Christian brothers of worshipping Satan is not something to be done lightly or ignorantly - not saying you're doing that, but it is that sort of statement that caused me to address this subject at all. Christians are capable of great wickedness out of good intentions, both masons and non-masons. Spreading vicious lies is wickedness, even when done out of ignorance. We need to know the things we speak evil of.
Well James – it all sounds pretty “religious” and “mythological” to me. Which “god” does the Hindu Mason choose as his “Supreme Grand Master”? Do all Masons – Hindu, Muslim, etc all go to the same “celestial lodge above” or are there separate lodges for the respective religions? Doesn’t the Masonic plan of salvation exclude Jesus Christ?


Masons have no religious laws. They have no mythology.
Is Hiram Abif part of Masonic mythology and where exactly does he fit into Masonic salvation, i.e., what's his function? For the record – I have never labeled Freemasonry as “satanic or luciferian”.

Brother James
Dec 31st 2007, 01:33 PM
Is Hiram Abif part of Masonic mythology and where exactly does he fit into Masonic salvation, i.e., what's his function? For the record – I have never labeled Freemasonry as “satanic or luciferian”.

I don't know how many ways to say this. Hiram Abif is not a myth. A myth is part of the fabric of a society, believed by the people to be based in fact. Every mason knows that the story of Hiram Abif is a made up allegory to teach a lesson. You keep calling allegory "myth" and that is a distortion. Hiram Abif does not fit into any "salvation". He is used to teach masons the virtue of being faithful in the face of adversity. No mason the I know of ever looked to masonry to provide them with salvation or eternal life. They enjoyed the pagentry of the allegory, and the virtues and morals they taught.

And I was not accusing you of labeling Freemasonry as satanic or luciferian, but most of the sources I have seen for the criticisms you raise do. It has been stated in this thread, which is what prompted me to relate what I know to be true.

Freemasonry is neither a religion nor does it take a position regarding ANY religion. A member's religious beliefs are his own and while some detractors would want masonry to mold itself into their interpretation of 'truth' or faith - or see the organization as a threat - the fact remains that Freemasonry is a fraternity of like-minded men dedicated to the ideals of brotherly love, relief and truth.

Brother James
Dec 31st 2007, 01:44 PM
Why would I want to join a group that can not make up its own mind as to what it is.

Just because you don't understand it (and cannot unless you go through it) doesn't mean that masonry doesn't know what it is. And I have not suggested that you, or any Christian, should become a mason. I have given legitimate criticisms of masonry that caused me to leave it. I would support any Christian in leaving it for similar or other valid reasons. However, I know many men of strong Christian conviction who stay because they do not believe as I do about the things I object to. I would never condemn them for making a decision different than mine. I do not hold myself up and the top arbiter of righteousness and truth, telling others how God is leading them.

I can't account for you experience with people you know. But please stop the "you, who claims" rhetoric as if you are calling me a liar in some veiled way. I could say the same about you, and your "claims" but what I have done is to relate to you that what you describe is outside of my own experience. Here is a statement from http://www.masonicinfo.com/pike.htm about Albert Pike's writings:




Let's clarify right at the outset: the vast majority of those who become Masons have no idea whatsoever who Pike was. In fact, most Masons throughout the world become members and will eventually die without ever encountering either him or any of his works. In fact, of all the Masons world-wide, it's likely that fewer than 2% will have ever even SEEN (much less read) a copy of ANY of his hundreds of writings, most of which have been relegated to the dustbin of history. Of the few who have, what they're familiar with will - almost without exception - be Morals and Dogma, a book that anti-Masons delight in holding up as the 'Bible' of Freemasonry.


Have any of you taken a look at the information at that website. They address all the question you've all posed - masonry as a religion, Albert Pike, etc. I find the information there to be consistent with my personal experience, and therefore reliable.

threebigrocks
Dec 31st 2007, 01:48 PM
No matter what is shared here is pure truth or pure garbage or somewhere inbetween, we can I hope agree on this: God is not the author of confusion. As this causes plenty of confusion on both ends, why expend energy to prove or disprove freemasonry when it's just running us in circles?

Now, everyone in CA and share your faith for the kingdom or help a new brother or sister in Christ in NiC with a Truth we know for certain! :D

I<3Jesus
Jan 1st 2008, 02:33 AM
Brother James - No offense, but everything you have posted about this organization sounds pretty shady to me.

Brother James
Jan 1st 2008, 04:08 AM
Which part? The part where I say they do not worship satan, or the part where I say they have racist tendencies?

It is easy enough to say something like you've said, but it is more fruitful to say something thoughtful. I'm not sure what it is that I've done that causes such ire. I resigned my membership in the masonic lodge, and all other masonic bodies, for reasons I've given. But refuting the hysterical wacko stuff that is put out there supposedly in the name of Christianity seems to upset people. Think of me what you wish, but do read the link I provided to find truth. Has anyone actually read the information there? Any one at all? Christians sometimes give the impression that their minds are made up on things and they don't want anybody throwing facts their way to upset that.

I would point to posts #6 and #7 to this thread, which constitute nothing more than mud slinging without facts, and without understanding. I suppose you prefer that sort of thing? It was that sort of ignorance that prompted me to post in this thread to begin with.

I<3Jesus
Jan 1st 2008, 05:48 AM
I think you are being far too defensive. Relax, you are not part of the organization anymore, so why vehemently defend it.

losthorizon
Jan 1st 2008, 05:52 AM
I don't know how many ways to say this. Hiram Abif is not a myth.

I don’t want to play semantics James but it is a well known fact inside and outside the Craft that Masonic “myth” includes the myth of Hiram Abiff. Was he resurrected from the dead according to your allegory?


Freemasonry is neither a religion nor does it take a position regarding ANY religion.
We will have to disagree on this one – Freemasonry is a religion in every sense of the word. It has a set of common beliefs and practices, codified prayer, ritual and myth.

Btw you never did answer the question about Hindu and Muslim Masons - which God to they choose for their “Supreme Grand Master” and do all Masons go to the same “celestial lodge above”?

diffangle
Jan 1st 2008, 04:05 PM
[quote=Brother James;1484884]Correct. I've never attended a worship service, or religious ceremony at a masonic lodge in my life.

"I never said there was nothing religious about Freemasonry."
"Freemasonry is filled with religious imagery"
"Prayer is said in the lodge"
"It draws from primarily Christianity and Judaism to teach moral lessons"
"There is a Bible at the center of the lodge and it is upon this Bible that the candidate places his hand to recite his obligation as a mason. In Jewish lodges this can be the Torah. In Muslim lodges, which do exist, it could be the Koran."



I guess your local Republican party is a church then.

It can be an assembly/ekklesia... not one full of religious rituals, imagery and prayer tho like the masons.



Probably about 5 years, though I quit attending meetings or being involved before that. It took a while to actually send the letter of resignation, but since I had long ago stopped paying dues it seemed good to take that formal step.

How are we to trust your judgement when, as a believer, you stayed in a racists organization that prohibited one from proclaiming Yahushua for so many years? Imo, you're still in denial about the other not so great things in freemasonry(ie. the Universalistic one world religion aspect of it).


Oh, I don't run off that easily. I have not advocated Christians becoming involved with the masons. If you think I have you're reading something into my writing that is not there, and that would be something for you to examine. What I have argued against are the fantasical claims about all manner of vile evil stemming from the mason. Those things are alarmist rhetoric constructed to cause fear and are untrue.
Yes, I guess being racists and against the proclaimation of our Saviour isn't evil after all. :rolleyes:



If I know something to be untrue that people who call themselves Christians keep repeating, I believe I have an obligation to speak up. If I accused the pastor of your church of some vile heinous act, and you knew it to be a lie, would you not speak up? That may not be a good analogy, but it hopefully illustrates what I mean.

Since you used the analogy of a pastor with freemasonry... how many church members do you think are shocked to hear that their dear pastor/priest has been molesting little boys or having gay sex?


I can use prayers of all my Christian brother and sisters, but not over masonry.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. :)


I have answsered each of your questions as directly and truthfully as I know how. I will continue to do so. But it seems to me that I am not the one with a problem, whereas you seem not to believe that you have true Bible-believing Spirit-filled brothers who are members of the masonic lodge.
I have to question those "Spirit-filled brothers" who think there's nothing wrong with binding themselves to a racists org that prohibits the proclaiming of our Saviour.



None of us are righteous and free of misguided beliefs and actions in our own strength. I know men who are masons today who I would go to if I were in need of intercessory prayer, because they have not felt the same conviction to leave the lodge that I have and I know the Christian fruits in their lives. You, on the other hand, would possibly judge them harshly because of things you've been deceived about.

I wouldn't go to them for prayer or guidance solely based on the things you've told me about freemasonry... so if that makes me "deceived", then so be it. ;)

diffangle
Jan 1st 2008, 04:17 PM
Who created the symbolism and allegorical rituals freemasonry uses?

Brother James
Jan 1st 2008, 05:26 PM
How are we to trust your judgement when, as a believer, you stayed in a racists organization that prohibited one from proclaiming Yahushua for so many years? Imo, you're still in denial about the other not so great things in freemasonry(ie. the Universalistic one world religion aspect of it).

Ah, so you now want to smear me personally rather than take a look at what you've already made up your mind to be true? You can question my judgement, but that is not a reasonable basis. I know many devout believers who didn't quit smoking cigarettes, or gambling, or doing many self-destructive things the day they accepted Christ. Would you for ever mistrust their judgements on that basis? Is there nothing in your own life that took time before you understood the leading of the Holy Spirit to change? This smacks of judgmentalness just for the sake of rejecting what I say, which is nothing less than closed-mindedness.





Yes, I guess being racists and against the proclaimation of our Saviour isn't evil after all. :rolleyes:



And that is just snotty, sarcastic, and outright uncalled for. At this point, I can only assume that you are misunderstanding what I've said on purpose. But let me try again. Let's say you were in the middle of a chemistry class in college. Would it be allowed for you to stand up in the middle of the professor's lecture and proclaim Jesus as Lord? Of course not. The masons sa nothing about proclaiming our Savior, they simply don't allow religious discussions in the lodge room. The discussion going on here is likely representative of why they took that position, but it's one I've already said was a problem for me.





Since you used the analogy of a pastor with freemasonry... how many church members do you think are shocked to hear that their dear pastor/priest has been molesting little boys or having gay sex?

What does that have to do with a pastor being a member of a fraternity. That's just weird, except that you equate being a freemason with being a molester of little boys. Wow, just to try to "win" a discussion?




I have to question those "Spirit-filled brothers" who think there's nothing wrong with binding themselves to a racists org that prohibits the proclaiming of our Saviour.


You can go about questioning every Christian you meet and judging them based on what you are personally against if you like. No scriptural authority for living that way, but people do all sorts of things that aren't scriptural. Like looking for the flaw in the other fellow, and refusing to look inward for one's own.

Brother James
Jan 1st 2008, 05:36 PM
I don’t want to play semantics James but it is a well known fact inside and outside the Craft that Masonic “myth” includes the myth of Hiram Abiff. Was he resurrected from the dead according to your allegory?



You know of Aesop's fables, I'm sure. They are fables that teach some lesson. They are not myths, because nobody believes them to be true. They are fables, as are the allegorical plays and rituals in masonry. Yes, Hiram was raised from the dead allegorically. Nobody believes this represents Christ, but rather the resurrection of the believer who remains faithful to the end.



We will have to disagree on this one – Freemasonry is a religion in every sense of the word. It has a set of common beliefs and practices, codified prayer, ritual and myth.

Only if you insist it to be so. The US Senate has a prayer when it opens, so it is a religion? It has a common set of practices. There are no common beliefs in freemasonry except to promote virtuous living. There are many non-religions that promote virtuous living. No, it is not a religion just because you or anyone else deems it so. Particularly when the members of the organization say they take no religious identity from it, it's pretty hard for an outsider to determine otherwise except for what they've made up their mind to do.



Btw you never did answer the question about Hindu and Muslim Masons - which God to they choose for their “Supreme Grand Master” and do all Masons go to the same “celestial lodge above”?

Well, each man's concept of God is a matter within his own heart. As Christ is my Lord, presumably a Muslim would believe Allah is God. By "celestial lodge above" the reference is to the afterlife according to one's own religious understanding. The belief is that there is a universal understanding among all who believe in God that there is an afterlife. That is not true today in 2008, but in 1700 when masonry came to be that was considered universal.

Brother James
Jan 1st 2008, 05:39 PM
I think you are being far too defensive. Relax, you are not part of the organization anymore, so why vehemently defend it.

Ah, that's the rub. I don't defend it. I criticize it. I just do so based on what I know, from being a part of it, to be true. And I strive to correct people's misunderstandings and refute things that are outright slander and lies about it. Folks here seem to think I'm promoting or advocating freemasonry for Christians. I've done no such thing. I simply have my own understanding of what it is and why I feel led to break from it, but I respect those who feel differently about it. They have a legitimate point of view with which I simply disagree. From my interactions in this thread, it seems that the ability to acknowledge that another may have a legitimate point of view with which one disagrees is a rare trait.

losthorizon
Jan 1st 2008, 06:53 PM
...You know of Aesop's fables, I'm sure. They are fables that teach some lesson. They are not myths, because nobody believes them to be true. They are fables, as are the allegorical plays and rituals in masonry. Yes, Hiram was raised from the dead allegorically. Nobody believes this represents Christ, but rather the resurrection of the believer who remains faithful to the end.

I read in Greek “mythology” that Poseidon is the brother of Zeus but I do not believe either mythological character is real nor do I believe their recorded escapades are true – they are myth just as Hiram’s resurrection is myth.


Only if you insist it to be so. The US Senate has a prayer when it opens, so it is a religion?
It’s more than a mere insistence on my part – Masonry meets the requirements for a religion and by any other name it is still a religion as affirmed by many Masons. Does the US Senate teach the mythology of Hiram or any other religious mythology?


Well, each man's concept of God is a matter within his own heart. As Christ is my Lord, presumably a Muslim would believe Allah is God. By "celestial lodge above" the reference is to the afterlife according to one's own religious understanding. The belief is that there is a universal understanding among all who believe in God that there is an afterlife. That is not true today in 2008, but in 1700 when masonry came to be that was considered universal.
So your answer is according to Freemasonry (and contrary to the Judeo-Christian Bible) the “Supreme Grand Master” can be any of the many Vedic gods and the “celestial lodge above” should really be the celestial “lodges” above. Did the Hindu religion believe in the celestial lodge in 1700 or transmigration of the soul as it does today?

James – I don’t what to beat a dead horse here and I do appreciate your frank answers regarding your experiences as a Freemason. I am glad that you are no longer a member of that organization and I would encourage any other Christians who may be involved in the Craft to consider leaving as well.:)

I<3Jesus
Jan 1st 2008, 07:03 PM
Ah, that's the rub. I don't defend it. I criticize it. I just do so based on what I know, from being a part of it, to be true. And I strive to correct people's misunderstandings and refute things that are outright slander and lies about it. Folks here seem to think I'm promoting or advocating freemasonry for Christians. I've done no such thing. I simply have my own understanding of what it is and why I feel led to break from it, but I respect those who feel differently about it. They have a legitimate point of view with which I simply disagree. From my interactions in this thread, it seems that the ability to acknowledge that another may have a legitimate point of view with which one disagrees is a rare trait.

To be fair I said it sounds shady based on the things you have said, not for any other reason. I think the rituals sound satanic. The whole thing just makes me shudder.

diffangle
Jan 1st 2008, 08:15 PM
[quote=Brother James;1486537]Ah, so you now want to smear me personally rather than take a look at what you've already made up your mind to be true? You can question my judgement, but that is not a reasonable basis. I know many devout believers who didn't quit smoking cigarettes, or gambling, or doing many self-destructive things the day they accepted Christ. Would you for ever mistrust their judgements on that basis? Is there nothing in your own life that took time before you understood the leading of the Holy Spirit to change? This smacks of judgmentalness just for the sake of rejecting what I say, which is nothing less than closed-mindedness.
So dramatic James.:P There's no smearing going on, I didn't say anything to you that you didn't say about other Christian brothers at the emfj site and to several of us here on the board. A couple people on this board have told you of things that masons have personally told them and you do all but call them liars.


And that is just snotty, sarcastic, and outright uncalled for.
No James it's not, it's the truth. Those two factors you've told us about the masons are evil. What was the spirit/attitude behind these comments of yours to others...

"Oh yes, if it's on the internet it must be correct."
"Research? Oh, come on."
"Surely you must recognize how absurd that suggestion seems."
"But it seems to me that I am not the one with a problem"
"You, on the other hand, would possibly judge them harshly because of things you've been deceived about."
"It is easy enough to say something like you've said, but it is more fruitful to say something thoughtful."
"I would point to posts #6 and #7 to this thread, which constitute nothing more than mud slinging without facts, and without understanding. I suppose you prefer that sort of thing? It was that sort of ignorance that prompted me to post in this thread to begin with."



At this point, I can only assume that you are misunderstanding what I've said on purpose. But let me try again. Let's say you were in the middle of a chemistry class in college. Would it be allowed for you to stand up in the middle of the professor's lecture and proclaim Jesus as Lord? Of course not. The masons sa nothing about proclaiming our Savior, they simply don't allow religious discussions in the lodge room. The discussion going on here is likely representative of why they took that position, but it's one I've already said was a problem for me.

I'm not sure if you realize how conflicting your above statement is... first you use an analogy to rationalize and explain away the purpose for the prohibition of your faith in the lodge then you end by saying you had a problem with that. :confused



What does that have to do with a pastor being a member of a fraternity. That's just weird, except that you equate being a freemason with being a molester of little boys. Wow, just to try to "win" a discussion?

Try not to twist things around James, what I was doing was running with your analogy. My point to your analogy is that many people in the congregation can be blind about their pastor/priest who is molesting little boys, just as masons can be undiscerning/blind to the rotten stuff about masonry.



You can go about questioning every Christian you meet and judging them based on what you are personally against if you like. No scriptural authority for living that way, but people do all sorts of things that aren't scriptural. Like looking for the flaw in the other fellow, and refusing to look inward for one's own.

I suppose that wasn't meant to be "snotty"? James, I've provided Scriptural support in several of my posts that addresses my points. Not all judging is bad when it comes to believer's exposing darkness...

1Cr 6:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr006.html#2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters.

1Cr 6:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr006.html#3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1Cr 10:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr010.html#15) I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

Eph 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

At this point James, I feel like there's no more use to converse with you on this subject, you're not seeing my points and they're upsetting you and from the things you've told me about masonry, I feel it is a dark organization/religion(therefore my view hasn't and won't change on it). My prayer and hope is that you and any others viewing the thread will realize the darkness of masonry.

Peace

threebigrocks
Jan 2nd 2008, 05:08 PM
I believe this has run it's course.