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Nihil Obstat
Dec 8th 2007, 03:46 AM
So I've discussed this before (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100950), but I'd like to pick it back up again, because I was really enjoying the dialogue, and definitely learning a lot (and I've learned a lot more since then)! In that thread that I linked to, I was presenting my belief that the second beast, not the first, in Rev. 13 is the Antichrist, and that the first is the demonic principality over the empire that the "lamb who spoke like a dragon" will rule.

To recap (as that thread became rather long), my argument is based heavily on how principalities are established. A group of people in unity and in one location gather together with similar desires, and over that place is enthroned a principality. God does this in accordance with their asking. If their hearts are in love with God, these principalities will be elect angels; if they love darkness and hate the light, the principalities will be fallen angels. This is what we see in Rev. 13 with the first beast. A wicked people desire wicked things, and out of the sea comes the "ministering spirit" to "aid" them to receive that which they are asking for in greater measures. Then, these people enthrone a human to govern them - this is the second beast; the Antichrist. This is truly how it works, and understanding this is vital in understanding God's kingdom.

One of the first descriptions given to this principality is that it is had a fatal head wound, but was now healed. Now, in Daniel we understand that the fourth beast is Rome, and yet is also an empire that will come in the days just prior to Jesus' return. We know that this is the same beast in two different time periods, because the angel tells us that there are only four beasts in the vision (Dan. 7:17). And yet we also know that following Rome came the Turkish Empire, being the seventh great empire to rule over Israel (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media / Persia, Greece, Rome) - the last before the beast empire was prophesied to emerge (the eighth empire - Rev. 17:11).

And in Dan. ch.2, the idol had iron legs, yet it's feet were partly iron and partly clay. I believe that the feet, which were hit by the rock cut out not by man's hands, are this eighth empire. Yet in ch. 7 we're told that the last is also Rome... I believe that this is what is meant by "fatal head wound". Now, demons hate other demons. It's not like they all get along. They are united in goal, yet they do not "love" one another, nor can they love, as love comes from God. Each succeeding beast destroys the previous one.

What I found interesting is that the last beast is seen with a fatal head wound. The principality over Rome's Empire was later replaced by the Ottoman Empire, who worshiped Allah. Allah commands beheadings! It is my belief that Rome's demonic principality was beheaded by the demon Allah, but will be healed, and come out from the sea yet again in the coming days. This is the "first beast" that John sees, the same that Daniel saw coming out from the sea made of iron, and different from all the ones before it. The "second beast" that John sees is the eleventh horn that Daniel saw - the Antichrist.

What do you all think? - Lk.11

losthorizon
Dec 8th 2007, 04:58 AM
...What I found interesting is that the last beast is seen with a fatal head wound. The principality over Rome's Empire was later replaced by the Ottoman Empire, who worshiped Allah. Allah commands beheadings! It is my belief that Rome's demonic principality was beheaded by the demon Allah, but will be healed, and come out from the sea yet again in the coming days. This is the "first beast" that John sees, the same that Daniel saw coming out from the sea made of iron, and different from all the ones before it. The "second beast" that John sees is the eleventh horn that Daniel saw - the Antichrist.

What do you all think? - Lk.11
“Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many anti-christs; whereby we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18). Isn’t it fact that the NT does not talk about a “lone ranger” that rides up from the east by the name of “the Antichrist” who will rear his ugly head sometime in the twentieth-first century (or another century)? The Apostle plainly states that “many antichrists” had already walked the earth in his day (the first century). Just a thought.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 8th 2007, 05:21 AM
No, that's not fact, and it's really not the direction I desire this thread to go. Thank you for understanding... - Lk.11

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 9th 2007, 07:38 PM
Have you ever considered that scripture when talking about a wound on the head that was healed... that Yeshua was the one that was to crush the adversaries head, and the adversary was to strike His heel.

I think it's possible we are making this more complicated than it needs to be. The adversaries headwound has been healing for the past 2000 years since Yeshua tried to crush his head. The beast is regaining composure. And while i believe there may be a man who will sport a physical headwound that was healed as a sign for us..... but i wouldn't necessarily wait on that to happen in order to know who the AC is.

In all reality we will know the antichrist by what he will decree and ask us all to do, which will be contra the Word of God. It will be deception, that many will miss.

Shalom,
Tanja

quiet dove
Dec 9th 2007, 07:43 PM
That is an interesting thought, but what I am having trouble with is that Jesus did not do anything to Satan that he will be healed of. The cruching of his head by Christ isn't going to be healed. :hmm:

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 9th 2007, 07:46 PM
quiet dove,

can you please provide some scriptures to that end ?

Shalom,
Tanja

quiet dove
Dec 9th 2007, 07:53 PM
I just consider the verses in Gen Messianic and what Jesus did as not being undoable. I mean Christ victory is not undoable. I know you believe that so not implying otherwise, so don't mistake me as making insinuations. What you said is an interesting thought but this is what came to me when I was thoughting about it. :)

Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 9th 2007, 07:59 PM
Quiet dove,

Well but that's just it, i was using the wrong word when i said "crush". Think about bruise... bruises last maybe a long time, but not forever.

Yeshua won victory over death, but that sure didn't stop the adversary from continuing his deceptive work.
We all know the adversary will not be eliminated totally until after the tribulation has started....

I still think it's a very valid point.

Shalom
Tanja

vinsight4u8
Dec 10th 2007, 12:54 PM
It is
seven kings
five are fallen

the beast was and is of the seven

the beast will be given a kingdom by the ten horns

the beast is a person
a king
a former king
that gets his deadly wound healed

Nebuchadnezzar

Nihil Obstat
Dec 10th 2007, 04:27 PM
It's my fault really for not laying out clearly what it was that I was hoping to discuss in this thread, so instead of replying to some of the responses (which would only lead us further away), I'll just get right to clarifying that which I was desirous to dialogue about:

1) How are principalities put into power? Do you agree with what I had laid out? Why or why not?

2) Do demons get along together, or do they hate each other? Can Satan's kingdom truly stand?

3) What do you think about warring angels (elect and fallen) receiving battle wounds and needing healing?

4) If you agree with me that the first beast is the old Roman demonic principality (or any other demon, I guess), but disagree with my "Allah theory", what is your belief(s) about the meaning of his "fatal head wound" that became healed?

If you'd like to ask questions about if there is actually going to be one final "capital A" Antichrist, then feel free to start a new thread - you'll probably see me in there. Or if you would like to talk about why or why not you agree with me that the first beast is not the Antichrist, please do so on the link that I provided in my opening post (I may even bump that thread up myself with a summary post).

Thanks! - Lk.11

dan
Dec 29th 2007, 09:02 AM
It is
seven kings
five are fallen

the beast was and is of the seven

the beast will be given a kingdom by the ten horns

the beast is a person
a king
a former king
that gets his deadly wound healed

Nebuchadnezzar

...If you bring Daniel into coincidence with Revelation, as I believe you must, the first beast-and probably the second- will not be allowed to lead in the normal way.
They will be followed in the world by imitation. That is, the world will believe their lies and follow their desires because of a twisted common sense, not because they are given real leadership positions.

DAN 11:21 And there shall stand up in his place one despised, and the kingly honour shall not be given him: and he shall come privately, and shall obtain the kingdom by fraud.
DAN 11:22 And the arms of the fighter shall be overcome before his face, and shall be broken; yea also the prince of the covenant. (Douay)

Firstfruits
Dec 29th 2007, 04:07 PM
So I've discussed this before (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100950), but I'd like to pick it back up again, because I was really enjoying the dialogue, and definitely learning a lot (and I've learned a lot more since then)! In that thread that I linked to, I was presenting my belief that the second beast, not the first, in Rev. 13 is the Antichrist, and that the first is the demonic principality over the empire that the "lamb who spoke like a dragon" will rule.

To recap (as that thread became rather long), my argument is based heavily on how principalities are established. A group of people in unity and in one location gather together with similar desires, and over that place is enthroned a principality. God does this in accordance with their asking. If their hearts are in love with God, these principalities will be elect angels; if they love darkness and hate the light, the principalities will be fallen angels. This is what we see in Rev. 13 with the first beast. A wicked people desire wicked things, and out of the sea comes the "ministering spirit" to "aid" them to receive that which they are asking for in greater measures. Then, these people enthrone a human to govern them - this is the second beast; the Antichrist. This is truly how it works, and understanding this is vital in understanding God's kingdom.

One of the first descriptions given to this principality is that it is had a fatal head wound, but was now healed. Now, in Daniel we understand that the fourth beast is Rome, and yet is also an empire that will come in the days just prior to Jesus' return. We know that this is the same beast in two different time periods, because the angel tells us that there are only four beasts in the vision (Dan. 7:17). And yet we also know that following Rome came the Turkish Empire, being the seventh great empire to rule over Israel (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media / Persia, Greece, Rome) - the last before the beast empire was prophesied to emerge (the eighth empire - Rev. 17:11).

And in Dan. ch.2, the idol had iron legs, yet it's feet were partly iron and partly clay. I believe that the feet, which were hit by the rock cut out not by man's hands, are this eighth empire. Yet in ch. 7 we're told that the last is also Rome... I believe that this is what is meant by "fatal head wound". Now, demons hate other demons. It's not like they all get along. They are united in goal, yet they do not "love" one another, nor can they love, as love comes from God. Each succeeding beast destroys the previous one.

What I found interesting is that the last beast is seen with a fatal head wound. The principality over Rome's Empire was later replaced by the Ottoman Empire, who worshiped Allah. Allah commands beheadings! It is my belief that Rome's demonic principality was beheaded by the demon Allah, but will be healed, and come out from the sea yet again in the coming days. This is the "first beast" that John sees, the same that Daniel saw coming out from the sea made of iron, and different from all the ones before it. The "second beast" that John sees is the eleventh horn that Daniel saw - the Antichrist.

What do you all think? - Lk.11

I agree concerning the first beast and the second beast as you have stated;

In that thread that I linked to, I was presenting my belief that the second beast, not the first, in Rev. 13 is the Antichrist, and that the first is the demonic principality over the empire that the "lamb who spoke like a dragon" will rule.
Rev 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

ServantoftheKing
Jan 3rd 2008, 06:23 AM
To understand what is meant by a "wound unto death" whose healing would spark the world wondering after the beast, let's take a closer look at the beast of Rev 13 and the beasts of Daniel 7.

Daniel writes about 4 beasts in Daniel 7.

The first is like a lion, and had eagle's wings. The eagle's wings are plucked from the lion and made to stand up like a man and a man's heart was given to it. I believe that this refers to two nations, one that is symbolized by a lion, and one that has two national symbols. The lion is likely Great Britain, the nation symbolized by the eagle and the man is the United States (both an eagle and Uncle Sam are often used to symbolize the United States).

The second beast is like to a bear. Russia is symbolized by a bear. This could represent Russia.

The third beast is a leopard with 4 heads and four wings of a fowl. The official symbol of Germany is a black eagle, its unofficial symbol is a leopard. 4 heads would represent four times that this nation has risen to power.

The fourth beast was the most terrifying to Daniel. It had 10 horns. This is the 10-nation union that the little horn (or Antichrist) is supposed to rise up from, speaking great things and making war against the saints and conquering them. In modern times, we don't know for sure who the 10-horned beast is quite yet, though the 10-member Western European Union is a possilbility.

Look at these beasts and at the beast of a Rev 13.

Lion - 1 head
Bear - 1 head
Leopard - 4 heads
10 horned beast - 1 head w/ 10 horns

The beast of Rev 13:1 is described as having 7 heads and 10 horns. In Rev 13:2 we see that it was like unto a leopard, with feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. The beast of Rev 13 is a composite beast of the beasts of Daniel 7. This composite beast has the power to make war against the saints and to conquer them (Rev 13:7).

Missing from the composite beast are the wings of the eagle, which are seen in Rev 12, giving aid to the woman in her flight. If the woman in Rev 12 is Israel, then there is the possibility that the United States remains her friend all the way through these things which must be hereafter.

Getting back on track to understanding the head that received a deadly wound that was healed, causing the world to wonder after the composite beast, one of the heads of that composite beast did receive a deadly wound and it was healed. In a Life Magazine article in 1968, George W. Ball (U.S. Under-Secretary of State), referred to the Berlin Wall as "the division that festers like a rusty knife wound". The USA Today called the Berlin Wall a "29-mile wound that won't heal" in August 1986. Time Magazine said on Nov 20, 1989 in an article titled, "Wall of Shame 1961-1989", "it was the most palpable evidence of a deep wound in European civilization - and it is finally gone."

The nearly fatal head wound suffered by the composite beast in Rev 13 appears to be the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. Did the world wonder after the beast following the fall? Yes. Shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall, we heard people speaking of the now present possibility of a New World Order (President George H. Bush). In Sept 1991, Dick Cheney spoke of the world being in a "new era of promise that started two years ago with the collapse of the Berlin Wall."

I could be wrong, but this does appear to be the healing of a deadly wound that one of the heads of the beast of Rev 13 suffered.

Let me know what you think.

ServantoftheKing

dan
Jan 12th 2008, 07:15 PM
...That the man with the healed deadly head wound is a real man, with a real wound.

ross3421
Jan 13th 2008, 01:21 AM
Daniel writes about 4 beasts in Daniel 7.

The first is like a lion, and had eagle's wings. The eagle's wings are plucked from the lion and made to stand up like a man and a man's heart was given to it.

I believe that this refers to two nations, one that is symbolized by a lion, and one that has two national symbols. The lion is likely Great Britain, the nation symbolized by the eagle and the man is the United States (both an eagle and Uncle Sam are often used to symbolize the United States).


SOF,

I want you to focus on a counterfeit to understand the identity of these animals. The counterfeit would not be to any worldly nation but to God and his kingdom. Understanding this then we see the following....

1. God's kingdom has 4 beasts as well. I believe they are or will be the kings of the earth in the eternal kingdom. Are these beasts ever mentioned by name or by country? No. Likewise these 4 are not named as they are part of a demonic kingdom set out to counterfeit the true pure kingdom.

2. We see this counterfeit in the first beast, the lion. We see a "lion" and "eagles wings" plus the fact that this beast was to stand upon feet and given a man's heart. Where in scripture do we also see a reference to a lion, eagles wings, man ect.... Jesus Christ.

So we see that this first beast starts out as a lion and has its wings plucked and comes to the ground (earth) and then is in the form of a man. Again likened unto Jesus Christ.

The "wings being plucked" is the reference to the head being wounded unto death. In chapter 12 we see Satan being wounded and is kicked out of heaven to the earth but then lives again which will be in the form of a man, the AC seen in the second beast of Rev 13. The wounded head is to the Lion but he will live again among his roots in the fourth animal beast as the little horn.

This senerio also highlights the beast which was (in heaven) and is not (in the earth) and yet is (back upon the earth).



The fourth beast was the most terrifying to Daniel. It had 10 horns. This is the 10-nation union that the little horn (or Antichrist) is supposed to rise up from, speaking great things and making war against the saints and conquering them. In modern times, we don't know for sure who the 10-horned beast is quite yet, though the 10-member Western European Union is a possilbility.

Look at these beasts and at the beast of a Rev 13.

Lion - 1 head
Bear - 1 head
Leopard - 4 heads
10 horned beast - 1 head w/ 10 horns

The beast of Rev 13:1 is described as having 7 heads and 10 horns.


I do applaud you seeing the 7 heads with the four beast which is correct. most try use all the kingdoms in Dan to come up the 7 heads.

Now if we continue with the counterfeit, what non wordly thing could represent the 10 horns. What do we see in God's kingdom which represents 10?

Well, right off the bat there appears to be not a clear match but if we reconize that between the first and second beasts of Rev 13 there are not 10 but 12 total horns. Um.... now were getting somewhere. 12 of course in God's kingdom are the 12 tribes of Israel but correctly divided into 10/2. The reason for the division in the beasts is that the second beast with the two horns represents the two tribes or the house of Judah whereby is the origin of true Messiah




Let me know what you think.

ServantoftheKing


The AC claims to be God not a world leader. He will then arise in a kingdom which appears to be the kingdom of God on earth not any country we know today.


Mark

shootingdead
Feb 24th 2009, 06:48 PM
...That the man with the healed deadly head wound is a real man, with a real wound.it could be king Faisal of Saudi Arabia who was assassinated in 1975 when he was shot in the head at point blank range. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal_of_Saudi_Arabia#Assassination

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 24th 2009, 07:07 PM
The AC claims to be God not a world leader. He will then arise in a kingdom which appears to be the kingdom of God on earth not any country we know today.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is Absolutely true.. and this 'psuedo kingdom'.. which he will proclaim 'god' over and many will follow and worship him........ will come under the Wrath of God.. and in the end the Real Kingdom 'invading' from Heaven with Jesus in the Lead...His Armies and Saints following...

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 24th 2009, 07:14 PM
Its that deadly head wound which is healed... which will amaze and bedazzle ( bewitch) those on this planet... many will see this and be convinced that 'God' is here and that its this man.. who was dead and alive again....... and they will worship, follow that man.. who is imitating Christ... they will take his 'mark'... those whose Names are NOT written in the Lambs Book of Life... only to be Lost Forever.. sealing their fate in the belief and worhsip in 'him' whose deadly wound was healed... its right there in Revelation..

markedward
Feb 24th 2009, 07:53 PM
This thread is over a year old...

shootingdead
Feb 24th 2009, 08:36 PM
The AC claims to be God not a world leader. He will then arise in a kingdom which appears to be the kingdom of God on earth not any country we know today.the person with the fatal wound was a king according to the verses below:

Revelation 13:3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.

Revelation 17:9 The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings.

if King Faisal comes back as the 8th king it will be as you say not as king of any country as we know today.

Revelation 17:11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven

shootingdead
Feb 24th 2009, 08:38 PM
This thread is over a year old...sorry i didn't realise that, i found it when i did a search on this subject.

iconoclast2012
Feb 24th 2009, 08:46 PM
...And I have just finished reading the initial post to get a better handle on where ur goin'w/it, as I also have flipped the characters here in Rev.13....I've all-ways seen the second beast here as the main power broker of the two...REV.13:12 "And he (exerciseth all the power) of the first beast before him,and (causeth) the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,whose deadly wound wasa healed"....He performs the signs & wonders, He breathes life into the Image of the !st.beast & He ("cause's) all to recieve the mark....He certainly sounds like the main man here, or is it main....men...? As we have.... "TWO HORNS" here to deal with..... Where can we go with that...?...Let's see....over here is a short read...http://prophecy-bible-prophecy.org/two-horned-lamb.html

Jude
Feb 24th 2009, 08:48 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/pray_persecuted_church.jpg

The beast you might just as well call it Babylon. Stop and think hard "Having a deadly head wound" "The Fall Of The Roman Empire"
"Then Coming To Life Again" "The Rise Of The Holy Roman Empire"
Doesn't it seem odd, there she sits right under everyones noses.:hmm:


AN'TI, n. [Gr. See Ante.]

...in place of.
Webster's 1828 Dictionary




Antichrist.

In place of Christ...




"[W]e hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."




--POPE LEO XIII

Brian Lloyd
Feb 24th 2009, 09:39 PM
So I've discussed this before (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100950), but I'd like to pick it back up again, because I was really enjoying the dialogue, and definitely learning a lot (and I've learned a lot more since then)! In that thread that I linked to, I was presenting my belief that the second beast, not the first, in Rev. 13 is the Antichrist, and that the first is the demonic principality over the empire that the "lamb who spoke like a dragon" will rule.

To recap (as that thread became rather long), my argument is based heavily on how principalities are established. A group of people in unity and in one location gather together with similar desires, and over that place is enthroned a principality. God does this in accordance with their asking. If their hearts are in love with God, these principalities will be elect angels; if they love darkness and hate the light, the principalities will be fallen angels. This is what we see in Rev. 13 with the first beast. A wicked people desire wicked things, and out of the sea comes the "ministering spirit" to "aid" them to receive that which they are asking for in greater measures. Then, these people enthrone a human to govern them - this is the second beast; the Antichrist. This is truly how it works, and understanding this is vital in understanding God's kingdom.

One of the first descriptions given to this principality is that it is had a fatal head wound, but was now healed. Now, in Daniel we understand that the fourth beast is Rome, and yet is also an empire that will come in the days just prior to Jesus' return. We know that this is the same beast in two different time periods, because the angel tells us that there are only four beasts in the vision (Dan. 7:17). And yet we also know that following Rome came the Turkish Empire, being the seventh great empire to rule over Israel (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media / Persia, Greece, Rome) - the last before the beast empire was prophesied to emerge (the eighth empire - Rev. 17:11).

And in Dan. ch.2, the idol had iron legs, yet it's feet were partly iron and partly clay. I believe that the feet, which were hit by the rock cut out not by man's hands, are this eighth empire. Yet in ch. 7 we're told that the last is also Rome... I believe that this is what is meant by "fatal head wound". Now, demons hate other demons. It's not like they all get along. They are united in goal, yet they do not "love" one another, nor can they love, as love comes from God. Each succeeding beast destroys the previous one.

What I found interesting is that the last beast is seen with a fatal head wound. The principality over Rome's Empire was later replaced by the Ottoman Empire, who worshiped Allah. Allah commands beheadings! It is my belief that Rome's demonic principality was beheaded by the demon Allah, but will be healed, and come out from the sea yet again in the coming days. This is the "first beast" that John sees, the same that Daniel saw coming out from the sea made of iron, and different from all the ones before it. The "second beast" that John sees is the eleventh horn that Daniel saw - the Antichrist.

What do you all think? - Lk.11

Brian Lloyd.

CHAPTER 13 (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter13.html#CHAPTER 13)


V.1
And (a)he stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a (b)wild beast coming up out of the sea, having (c)ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads (d)names of blasphemy.

V.2 (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter13.html#V.2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet as the feet of a bear its mouth as a)
And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet as the feet of a bear its mouth (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter13.html#V.2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet as the feet of a bear its mouth as a) as a (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter13.html#V.2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet as the feet of a bear its mouth as a)lion's mouth, and the (e)dragon
gave it this power, also its throne, and great authority.
(a) "He;" this is translated in AV as "I." However, as this verse in the original undivided text follows V.17 of Chapter 12, the reference is almost certainly to Satan. (Chapters and verses have only been inserted into the Bible in recent times.) Therefore Satan oversees as he stands on the edge of the sea the rising of the beast. Sea is often used in Scripture as a metaphor for peoples / nations, so here "he," watched the rising of a particular grouping of peoples, or personage, or both! Satan oversees this birth, whereas Almighty God oversaw the birth of Christ from Israel (12:1-5.)
(b) "Wild beast;" this is the first reference in Scripture to such since Daniel (B.C. 495.) In his day, the nation of Israel was in exile in Babylon from his youth for 70 years, and he was a man (Prophet) much loved by God (Dan. 9:23,) (Dan. 10:19.) Daniel was given the ability to interpret dreams, in the Power and Permit of Almighty God, to which he always paid homage and witness; and did so on a number of occasions in his early captivity. One of those dreams much troubled Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 2) and concerned the image of a man. Daniel, after witnessing to the source of the dream (Dan. 2:28) gave its meaning (Dan. 2:29-45.) The man's image represented 4 kingdoms.
1) The head of gold represented Babylonian empire, symbol LION B.C. 626 -539.
2) The chest and arms of silver, Medo - Persia, BEAR B.C. 539 - 330.
3) Belly and thighs of bronze, Greek empire, LEOPARD B.C. 330 - 63.
4) Legs of iron, Roman Empire, Eagle? (Terrifying beast) B.C. 63 - to: (A.D. 70 as regards Israel!)

* Note: The feet are discussed in verse 8 notes.

The important principle in the above for the purpose of the Almighty, and the record made by the Holy Spirit in the Bible, is not the kingdoms as such, but the fact that they impinge on ISRAEL when the history of Israel is current (defined as "Ammi") as opposed to the history of mankind generally.

shootingdead
Feb 24th 2009, 09:57 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/pray_persecuted_church.jpg

The beast you might just as well call it Babylon. Stop and think hard "Having a deadly head wound" "The Fall Of The Roman Empire"
"Then Coming To Life Again" "The Rise Of The Holy Roman Empire"
Doesn't it seem odd, there she sits right under everyones noses.:hmm:


AN'TI, n. [Gr. See Ante.]


...in place of.
Webster's 1828 Dictionary





Antichrist.


In place of Christ...





"[W]e hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."





--POPE LEO XIII




are you saying the Holy Roman Empire is the 8th King in which case what number king was the Roman Empire?

iconoclast2012
Feb 24th 2009, 10:14 PM
....furthermore, what we see in rev.13 is the manifestation of the "unholy" trinity,as evidenced in REV.16:2 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet".....And what precipitates this...? In verse one we read:"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared"....Does anyone else see the China connection here ,with the unclean spirit that spake as a DRAGON in rev.13:11......?

shootingdead
Feb 24th 2009, 11:42 PM
....furthermore, what we see in rev.13 is the manifestation of the "unholy" trinity,as evidenced in REV.16:2 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet".....And what precipitates this...? In verse one we read:"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared"....Does anyone else see the China connection here ,with the unclean spirit that spake as a DRAGON in rev.13:11......?

Revelation 13:11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.

it is a beast, not an unclean spirit.

Revelation 16:12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

i suspect the dragon here is the devil.

shootingdead
Feb 24th 2009, 11:58 PM
and the (e)dragon
gave it this power, also its throne, and great authority.am i correct in understanding that what you are saying is that the devil wouldn't give its throne and great authority if it was just a ministering spirit/principality?

dan
Feb 25th 2009, 05:45 AM
One of the first descriptions given to this principality is that it is had a fatal head wound, but was now healed. Now, in Daniel we understand that the fourth beast is Rome, and yet is also an empire that will come in the days just prior to Jesus' return. We know that this is the same beast in two different time periods, because the angel tells us that there are only four beasts in the vision (Dan. 7:17). And yet we also know that following Rome came the Turkish Empire, being the seventh great empire to rule over Israel (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media / Persia, Greece, Rome) - the last before the beast empire was prophesied to emerge (the eighth empire - Rev. 17:11).

The second beast of Revelation is in power while the first is still alive:

REV 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
REV 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
REV 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
REV 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

I would contend that the first and second beasts of Revelation are together at the beginning of the end, at least.


What I found interesting is that the last beast is seen with a fatal head wound. The principality over Rome's Empire was later replaced by the Ottoman Empire, who worshiped Allah. Allah commands beheadings! It is my belief that Rome's demonic principality was beheaded by the demon Allah, but will be healed, and come out from the sea yet again in the coming days. This is the "first beast" that John sees, the same that Daniel saw coming out from the sea made of iron, and different from all the ones before it. The "second beast" that John sees is the eleventh horn that Daniel saw - the Antichrist.

What do you all think? - Lk.11

Healings are done by "real" faith healers or doctors.

If done by a doctor, deadly head wounds were not curable before WWI with any certainty.

We have with us, in the world today, a man that has a healed deadly head wound that has declared the rebuked message of Rev 13:10, to wit:

"Those that murder with the sword must not be killed with the sword"

That is essentially what the first beast said to have the Holy Spirit rebuke him with these statements:

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

This is also a rebuke to the desire of the beast to disarm the world:

DAN 11:22 And the arms of the fighter shall be overcome before his face, and shall be broken; yea also the prince of the covenant. (Douay)

shootingdead
Feb 25th 2009, 09:54 AM
Revelation 13:3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

Revelation 17:8The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

i've always assumed that the healing of the fatal wound is the same thing as the once was, now is not, and yet will come but is this the case? in both cases people were astonished but in one it is the whole world and in the other it is the inhabitants fo the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world. can anyone shed any light on this please?

vinsight4u8
Feb 25th 2009, 07:22 PM
five of the seven kings are fallen

=one of them must be the beast - that was

shootingdead
Feb 25th 2009, 11:38 PM
five of the seven kings are fallen

=one of them must be the beast - that wasthat's my understanding.

ross3421
Feb 26th 2009, 03:01 AM
Revelation 13:3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

Revelation 17:8The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

i've always assumed that the healing of the fatal wound is the same thing as the once was, now is not, and yet will come but is this the case? in both cases people were astonished but in one it is the whole world and in the other it is the inhabitants fo the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world. can anyone shed any light on this please?

Yes. Parrallel Nebuchadnezzar. Also we see this example in the following...the lion becomes the lamb.

once was

Da 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings:

is not

I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked,

yet is

and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Because there will be a point in time in which the "whole world" will only contain those names which are not (remain) written in the book. Apart from the 144,000.

Jude
Feb 26th 2009, 03:19 AM
are you saying the Holy Roman Empire is the 8th King in which case what number king was the Roman Empire?


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/corsses2.jpg

I think I've said a mouthful, let the scripture say it.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Just like today the smokescreen is so thick there she sits all prim and proper. "If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect".


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/globe8.gif

vinsight4u8
Feb 26th 2009, 01:14 PM
that's my understanding.

so - Rev. is showing us a dead king, actually a dead king that went to the grave before John was alive.

seven kings
five are fallen

beast one - is of the seven
and he was

At the time of John - only five kings are in the "was" aleady dead category.

So who are they?
The part I believe is our key is that they have a specific name on their heads.

blasphemy

Psalm 74 reveals that God's name written on the holy site was blasphemed in the days of Nebuchadnezzar.

So- Nebuchadnezzar must be one of those dead five kings.

Following that same thought - as in God's name is on the holy site -
Antiochus of Epiphanes also blasphmed the name of God.


1. Nebuchadnezzar
2. Antiochus of Epiphanes
so did

3. Antochus Eupator
4. Crassus (a Roman)
5. Titus

the five fallen kings of blasphemy

One of them also has the number of 666.
So - only Nebuchadnezzar can return as the beast of Rev. 17 - his deadly wound gets healed

After this dead king returns - the world wonders after this beast (him).

shootingdead
Feb 26th 2009, 06:43 PM
so - Rev. is showing us a dead king, actually a dead king that went to the grave before John was alive.

seven kings
five are fallen

beast one - is of the seven
and he was

At the time of John - only five kings are in the "was" aleady dead category.

Revelation 17:1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you...

Revelation 17: 9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come

another way of looking at this is that 5 kings had fallen at the point in time that the angel had taken John to. if the angel had taken John to 2006 for example and was showing him the beast at that time or now then he would see the 6th and current King of Saudi Arabia that there has been since Saudi Arabia came into existance in 1932. one of the previous 5 kings of Saudi Arabia, King Faisal, was fatally assassinated in 1975.

look at the first paragraph about King Faisal on wikipedia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal_of_Saudi_Arabia
..his main foreign policy themes were pan-Islamism, anti-Communism, and anti-Zionism.

could the king after the next king of Saudi Arabia be the anti-christ?

the current king, King Abdullah, is 84 years old and the next king could be his older half-brother, so it may not be long!!

vinsight4u8
Feb 27th 2009, 03:03 PM
The man of sin will come from Iraq, because a Babylonian king must come back and finish Jeremiah 25:11's prophecy,

then v 12 can come to pass.


This is the prophecy that Daniel was bugged over at the start of Daniel chaper 9.

Daniel read the Jeremiah prophecy - then supplicated over it - and Gabriel gave the 70 weeks prophecy , due to Daniel's supplications to understand the timing for the message to unfold in Jeremiah.

The "he" written of in Daniel 9:27 is Jeremiah's prophecy Babylonian.

vinsight4u8
Feb 27th 2009, 03:11 PM
"Amd the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth..."

beast was
John is - but the beast is not
beast shall ascend out of the pit

Okay, it then goes on to tell us that the ten kings have not yet received a kingdom. /as in they will not be back from the grave people


If you look over at Rev. 12 too - there we find these same seven heads are in a prophecy as to who will rule the nations.

Satan
or
Jesus Christ

Satan - brings forth over time all his evil ones
(angels - seven kings, ten horns)

The LORD - came forth out of the tribes of the woman- Israel and was caught up to heaven.

The seven heads are involved in Satan's goal of ruling all the nations - which means he would need that holy site throne location.

So - along comes Nebuchadnezzar
then Antiochus of Epiphanes
head number 3 - Antiochus Eupator
head number 4 - Crassus
and Titus

the fallen kings of blasphemy
at the time when John was given the prophecy riddle

vinsight4u8
Feb 27th 2009, 03:15 PM
Psalm 74:7
"They have cast fire into thy sanctuary, they have defiled by casting down the dwelling place of thy name..."

v 10
"O God, how long shall the adveersary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme by name for ever?"

vinsight4u8
Feb 27th 2009, 03:20 PM
Daniel 8 shows the little horn will come from the east.

(the king that understands dark sentences) riddles,
and is of fierce countenance

v 23
"...in the latter time of their kingdom..."

(so the little horn can only arise in the area that was under the Greek Empire)

v9
"...came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east. and toward the pleasant land."


This is all we need to get a good grip on where the man of sin will be from.

Israel...<..man of sin nation. >...heads east
..................takes the south.................

dan
Mar 1st 2009, 03:14 AM
it could be king Faisal of Saudi Arabia who was assassinated in 1975 when he was shot in the head at point blank range. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal_of_Saudi_Arabia#Assassination

King Faisal died. The wounded head of the beast is healed. The wound is deadly, only if left untreated.

Brian Lloyd
Mar 2nd 2009, 01:48 PM
Brian Lloyd:
Not sure what you are saying here?

Brian Lloyd
Mar 2nd 2009, 01:51 PM
am i correct in understanding that what you are saying is that the devil wouldn't give its throne and great authority if it was just a ministering spirit/principality?

Brian Lloyd:

Not sure what you are saying here?

dan
Mar 6th 2009, 03:26 AM
Brian Lloyd:
Not sure what you are saying here?

...Part don't you understand?

Brian Lloyd
Mar 7th 2009, 09:22 AM
Brian Lloyd:

If you mean, which "part don't you understand"; the answer is please explain yourself in the subject you are expounding! Thank you; I look fore ward to "understanding!

dan
Mar 7th 2009, 10:14 PM
Brian Lloyd:

If you mean, which "part don't you understand"; the answer is please explain yourself in the subject you are expounding! Thank you; I look fore ward to "understanding!

...It's quite simple, really. And thank you for the opportunity.

Although the wound to one of the heads of the first beast was a fatal wound, inflicted with a weapon, it was healed, so the life of the one wounded was saved:

REV 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

REV 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

REV 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

So, If you believe, as I do, that the beasts "heads" are actually men that are alive, then you are looking for a live man with a healed head wound, inflicted by a sword.

Also, this man must believe that: "Those that murder with a weapon must not be killed with a weapon". I would think that he would proclaim this loudly, and have many followers, and he does.

shootingdead
Mar 8th 2009, 01:31 AM
.. and he does.who does?

this is some more text because my message was too short!

Brian Lloyd
Mar 8th 2009, 04:59 AM
...It's quite simple, really. And thank you for the opportunity.

Although the wound to one of the heads of the first beast was a fatal wound, inflicted with a weapon, it was healed, so the life of the one wounded was saved:

REV 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

REV 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

REV 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

So, If you believe, as I do, that the beasts "heads" are actually men that are alive, then you are looking for a live man with a healed head wound, inflicted by a sword.

Also, this man must believe that: "Those that murder with a weapon must not be killed with a weapon". I would think that he would proclaim this loudly, and have many followers, and he does.

Brian Lloyd:

We continue to differ!

dan
Mar 11th 2009, 04:40 AM
Brian Lloyd:

We continue to differ!

The seven heads are seven men, who support the beast with money and people IMO.

The wounded head is with us today, and continues to say that "the murderers that kill with the sword must not be killed with the sword".

The antithesis of the rebuke by the Holy Spirit:

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

DurbanDude
Mar 13th 2009, 10:28 PM
The clues to much of the symbolism in Revelation are found in the book of Daniel. It is there that we learn that beasts represent empires. Horns represent divisions of empires or smaller countries. Heads also represent empires or divisions of empires.

Sometimes the characteristics of man are given to the beast/horn. In these cases the beast/horn will represent the leader of that region, the leader being representative of the power of that region.

I may be wrong, but I've never seen the characteristics of a man given to a head, heads in Daniel represent empires or divisions of empires only.

So when I read Rev, and read about seven heads, 5 were, one is, and one is to come, this speaks to me of seven consecutive empires. Five existed before the first century AD, one existed at that time, and one was to follow. The beast (the final empire) is the 8th consecutive empire according to Revelation. But because these 7 heads are part of the beast, any injury to one head is an injury to the beast itself. You could explain this by regarding the beast as representing all ungodly political power through history, and also representing the final manifestation of this power.

So this beast representing Satan's political power on earth was injured. It was not the 8th or final empire that was injured , but ONE OF THE SEVEN HEADS. This implies that one of the seven consecutive empires was nearly destroyed and yet managed to recover.

13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Please note: This is NOT referring to the 8th empire, the 8th empire was, and is not, and yet will come.
17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The above verses are clear, one of the 7 recovers from the deadly wound, and the 8th re-appears from the past. These are TWO SEPARATE RECOVERIES relating to Satan's political power on earth.

The 8 empires are as follows:

The five:

Egypt, historically the first empire of the region
Assyria
Babylon
Persia
Greece

the 6th is the one that existed at the time of writing of Rev , the one that is:

Rome. However Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 indicate that the empire after Greece , ie Rome, will be a continuous power until the end. This helps us identify the 7th and 8th empires, because to fit in with Daniel 2, the 7th and 8th empires also have to be associated with Rome.

There are further clues as to the identity of the 7th empire if we look at Daniel 2. There are 3 stages of Rome described here, The iron stage, the iron and clay stage (split into two feet), and the ten toes stage. The iron stage represents the iron strength of the Roman Empire. After this what empire ruled that was a split empire that ruled with a combination of strong power (iron) and brittle power (clay).

The split empire that followed Rome was the Holy Roman empire of the West and the Byzantium Empire of the East, both with strong religious affiliation as part of their politics. This fits in perfectly with the "iron and clay feet" of Daniel 2, and also with the 7th consecutive empire of Rev 17.

7th empire is a split empire: Holy Roman Empire (West), Byzantium and later Ottoman (East)

In 1798 Napoleon conquered both the west and some parts of the eastern split of the old Roman empire, inflicting a deadly wound on the Vatican, and on the Ottoman empire in the east. It is this deadly wound to the 7th empire which is slowly recovering. The recovery of the Western empire is being assisted by the Jesuits who by all means are trying to restore the "glory" of the church and its power. In the east, Turkey is still recovering from western dominance, and most likely will shortly become a central point of Moslem dominance again.

The recovery of the two splits of the Roman empire is in progress.

What do we know about the 8th empire? According to Daniel 7 it is a small horn of the fourth beast. This means it is a small country that is within the borders of the Roman Empire. Rev 17 says that the 8th one is the beast (empire) that was, and is not, and yet will come. This means that this final country that will rule the world ceased to exist and then re-appeared. Which country ceased to exist when Rev was written , and then has re-appeared.
17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(other translations: was and is not, and will come.)


So which small country has risen again , that will rule the world? That was part of the Roman empire? Where will the antichrist be crowned, where will the antichrist pitch his tents?

Israel is the 8th consecutive empire, the final empire that will rule the world. The country that re-appeared , which Christians were expecting but amazed non-Christians.

How is Israel associated with Rome?
1) It is part of the old Roman Empire
2) Rev 17 says that Rome (the city that rules kings - Rev 17:18) will sit on the beast, Rome and Israel will be united.

These are the 7 heads of the beast, and then the 8th empire.

dan
Mar 23rd 2009, 02:20 AM
The clues to much of the symbolism in Revelation are found in the book of Daniel. It is there that we learn that beasts represent empires. Horns represent divisions of empires or smaller countries. Heads also represent empires or divisions of empires.

Sometimes the characteristics of man are given to the beast/horn. In these cases the beast/horn will represent the leader of that region, the leader being representative of the power of that region.

I may be wrong, but I've never seen the characteristics of a man given to a head, heads in Daniel represent empires or divisions of empires only.

...Bible Books Jerimiah and Judges the "head" is used to describe the leader of a group.

Stephen1
Mar 23rd 2009, 02:59 AM
The 7 heads of the beast are his kingdoms of the ancient past and the future

His first 5 kingdom fell .... the 5th is the head wounded .... the 6th will be the one healed at the time of the end

One must understand who the beast is .... who "was", is "not", and will come out of the abyss to rule again

If this beast himself is not identified properly first, one will never understand Revelation's presentation

DurbanDude
Mar 23rd 2009, 07:33 AM
...Bible Books Jerimiah and Judges the "head" is used to describe the leader of a group.

Thanks for that. I have studied all Roman emperors of that time, and can't find any sequence of 5 kings that were, one is, and one is to come that can possibly fit in with Rev 17, that's why I stick with the seven consecutive empires method.

By the way, can you give me those verses in Jeremiah and Judges?

ChristBearer81
Mar 23rd 2009, 07:37 PM
i wouldnt suggest that a beast be a single person. beast in prophecy is more symbolic to a nation/military/empire, or any relevant faction with power.

i have a pretty darn good idea of who this wounded beast is. wounded head means that this beast (faction) has been fatally wounded, yet lived (lost much power, authority...whichever you prefer)...BUT the beast wasnt just wounded - it tells you that its HEAD was wounded, thus, this group was devastated because of something happening to it's leader....this beast has been very visible for most of the last 2,000 years.

if anyone wants to pm me over this beast, feel free. i dont want to contact others about it, because with certain groups, it is a very sensitive suggestion.

dan
Mar 24th 2009, 01:03 AM
Thanks for that. I have studied all Roman emperors of that time, and can't find any sequence of 5 kings that were, one is, and one is to come that can possibly fit in with Rev 17, that's why I stick with the seven consecutive empires method.

By the way, can you give me those verses in Jeremiah and Judges?

...Here is the Holy Spirit giving you a physical description of the beast's wounded-head and telling you what he will say and do.:idea:

Are you sure that trying to figure out who possesses the spirit of a long dead former king is the right way to go?:o

REV 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

REV 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

REV 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Note: I believe that this is a rebuke, the wounded-head will say the opposite.

REV 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

REV 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Re: "head" used as a description of an individual.

EX 6:14 These be the heads of their fathers' houses: The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel; Hanoch, and Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi: these be the families of Reuben.

JOSH 22:21 Then the children of Reuben and the children of Gad and the half tribe of Manasseh answered, and said unto the heads of the thousands of Israel,

JOSH 22:30 And when Phinehas the priest, and the princes of the congregation and heads of the thousands of Israel which were with him, heard the words that the children of Reuben and the children of Gad and the children of Manasseh spake, it pleased them.

JOSH 23:2 And Joshua called for all Israel, and for their elders, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers, and said unto them, I am old and stricken in age:

JOSH 24:1 And Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God.

JUDG 11:9 And Jephthah said unto the elders of Gilead, If ye bring me home again to fight against the children of Ammon, and the LORD deliver them before me, shall I be your head?

Randy M
Mar 24th 2009, 02:00 AM
:rolleyes: As far as your understanding of how principalities come into power ... it is interesting, possible, and such things are intriguing to discuss. But, since the Bible doesn't tell us, we can only speculate. Indeed, my feeling is there are different situations in heavenly and earthly events that may dictate these things. Do demons get along together? It was the author Frank Peretti that posited them as jealous rivals out to please satan ... and, again, it could be true, but still speculation. Jesus did say, in reference to satan's kingdom, that it could not stand if it were divided. My thinking is that as the End Times approach, they will work in agreement to try to avoid the Lake of Fire. There only hope is to defeat or prevent the second coming of Jesus. Concerning your third statement, I do believe elect and fallen angels conduct warfare on a more or less continual basis that will turn to all out angelic war in the End Time.

It's my fault really for not laying out clearly what it was that I was hoping to discuss in this thread, so instead of replying to some of the responses (which would only lead us further away), I'll just get right to clarifying that which I was desirous to dialogue about:

1) How are principalities put into power? Do you agree with what I had laid out? Why or why not?

2) Do demons get along together, or do they hate each other? Can Satan's kingdom truly stand?

3) What do you think about warring angels (elect and fallen) receiving battle wounds and needing healing?

4) If you agree with me that the first beast is the old Roman demonic principality (or any other demon, I guess), but disagree with my "Allah theory", what is your belief(s) about the meaning of his "fatal head wound" that became healed?

If you'd like to ask questions about if there is actually going to be one final "capital A" Antichrist, then feel free to start a new thread - you'll probably see me in there. Or if you would like to talk about why or why not you agree with me that the first beast is not the Antichrist, please do so on the link that I provided in my opening post (I may even bump that thread up myself with a summary post).

Thanks! - Lk.11

DurbanDude
Mar 24th 2009, 06:50 AM
i wouldnt suggest that a beast be a single person. beast in prophecy is more symbolic to a nation/military/empire, or any relevant faction with power.

i have a pretty darn good idea of who this wounded beast is. wounded head means that this beast (faction) has been fatally wounded, yet lived (lost much power, authority...whichever you prefer)...BUT the beast wasnt just wounded - it tells you that its HEAD was wounded, thus, this group was devastated because of something happening to it's leader....this beast has been very visible for most of the last 2,000 years.

if anyone wants to pm me over this beast, feel free. i dont want to contact others about it, because with certain groups, it is a very sensitive suggestion.

I don't want to pm, because I am pretty sure of the answer, and sure we will agree. You are correct in defining the beast as an empire.

You are slightly wrong in that you say its head was wounded and this is referring to its leader. Just like you have correctly defined the beast as an empire, if you study Daniel you can see that the four heads represent four divisions of the Greek empire, heads represent divisions of empires, not individuals, in end-times symbolism.

Being 5 were, and one is, and one is to come (Rev 17) we can see that they are 7 consecutive parts of wordly rule on earth. So one of these 7 heads has had a fatal wound, I believe this is the RCC, the 7th world empire. The final power, the 8th one which is a re-appearing country (Rev 17) is still to rule, and will be assisted by the revived 7th head, the recovered power of the RCC.

Scar
Mar 24th 2009, 01:21 PM
The Reformers were divided on many things, but this is one prophecy they all agreed upon.

First of all, you can't guess on what prophetic symbols actually mean. You need to get their definition from the Bible.

Daniel 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Beast refers to a kingdom, for instance.

Jeremiah 6:2
I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Woman refers to church.

The Reformers were unanimous in their belief that the Roman Catholic Church was the "woman riding the beast" or a "church kingdom" and that the Pope is Antichrist.

Luther-

“This teaching [of the supremacy of the pope] shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ, because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God. This is, properly speaking, to exalt himself above all that is called God. . . . The Pope, however, prohibits this faith, saying that to be saved a person must obey him” (Smalcald Articles, II, IV, 10-12).

Said Luther against the papal antichrist: "We must slay him with words; the mouth of Christ must do it . . . See what effect this . . . preaching and writing this truth has had; how the papists’ cover has shrunk . . . Let us be wise, thank God for His Holy Word, and be bold with our mouths . . . Let us keep boldly on: earnestly inculcate the Word; and drive out the laws of men . . . This is the way Christ is, through us, slaying the papacy." "Christ is with His saints, and wins the victory!"

"Luther ... proved, by the revelations of Daniel and St. John, by the epistles of St. Paul, St. Peter, and St. Jude, that the reign of Antichrist, predicted and described in the Bible, was the Papacy ... And all the people did say, Amen! A holy terror siezed their souls. It was Antichrist whom they beheld seated on the pontifical throne. This new idea, which derived greater strength from the prophetic descriptions launched forth by Luther into the midst of his contemporaries, inflicted the most terrible blow on Rome." Taken from J. H. Merle D'aubigne's History of the Reformation of the Sixteen Century, book vi, chapter xii, p. 215.

Based on prophetic studies, Martin Luther finally declared, "We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520). Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by LeRoy Froom. Vol. 2., pg. 121.

Calvin-

Calvin especially insisted that both II Thessalonians 2:3ff and I John 2:18 & 4:4ff clearly brand the pope as antichrist. Romanists, said Calvin, were wrong to regard antichrist as a yet-future tyrant who would harass the church for but three and a half years. Even a ten-year-old, stated Calvin, can see that the centuries-long papacy is itself indeed antichrist! Yet the papal "antichrist will be annihilated by the Word of the Lord . . . Paul does not think the Christ will accomplish this in a moment . . . Christ will scatter the darkness . . . before His coming" by "the preaching of this doctrine." For "we fight by Christ’s power, and are armed with God’s weapons . . . We are victorious . . . We can no more be conquered, than can God Himself . . . Victory is certain!"

More specifically, the Westminster Confession further insists about deformed churches, that "some have so degenerated as to become synagogues of Satan. Revelation 18:2; Romans 11:18-22 . . . The pope of Rome . . . is that antichrist . . . that exalteth himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God. Matthew 23:8-10; II Thessalonians 2:3-4, 8-9; Revelation 13:6."

"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin.

Knox-

John Knox sought to counteract "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church." As with Luther, he finally concluded that the Papacy was "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." The Zurich Letters, by John Knox, pg. 199.

Thomas Cranmer-

"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

Roger Williams-

Pastor Williams spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)." The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.

The Westminster Confession of Faith-

"There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition that exalteth himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God." Taken from Philip Schaff's, The Creeds of Christendom, With a History and Critical Notes, III, p. 658, 659, ch. 25, sec. 6.

John Wesley-

Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, by John Wesley, pg. 110.

"Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently Spurgeon, Bishop J.C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist." Taken from All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen. Dorchestor House Publications, p. 205. 1991.

DurbanDude
Mar 24th 2009, 02:01 PM
The real question we should have today is, "Were the Reformers correct or is dispensationalism correct?" With over 96% of the Christian world subscribing to dispensationalism, it's a very important question.

Hi Scar,

I agree with the reformers as regard attitude to the RCC. I get very technical about the 7 heads, and the RCC being the 7th head, and assisting the 8th empire into power, but on a more general note the reformers are right.

Rome is the fourth empire and will rule the world. (Daniel 2, Daniel 7)
Rome is the woman that rides the beast (Rev 17:18)

The problem is terminology, there will be an evil individual that will rule the world for 3.5 years, I believe that rome will assist him to power. Now this future man is referred to as the "antichrist", but the bible does not use that word to describe him at all. So I agree that the RCC/pope is the antichrist religion, there are many antichrist's or popes over time, but there will still come a certain individual to rule for 3.5 years, the bible is clear on this too. Rome will set him up as world leader in Israel, thus Rome and Israel will be a united religion, and a united empire, the woman will ride the beast.

Scar
Mar 28th 2009, 04:50 AM
To understand what is meant by a "wound unto death" whose healing would spark the world wondering after the beast, let's take a closer look at the beast of Rev 13 and the beasts of Daniel 7.

Daniel writes about 4 beasts in Daniel 7.

The first is like a lion, and had eagle's wings. The eagle's wings are plucked from the lion and made to stand up like a man and a man's heart was given to it. I believe that this refers to two nations, one that is symbolized by a lion, and one that has two national symbols. The lion is likely Great Britain, the nation symbolized by the eagle and the man is the United States (both an eagle and Uncle Sam are often used to symbolize the United States).

The lion with eagle's wings represents Nebuchadnezzar the Kingdom of Babylon.

http://www.greatdreams.com/sacred/chimeral.jpg

Daniel 4:16
Let his heart be changed from man’s, and let a beast’s heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Daniel 4:33
The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

Daniel 5:20-22

20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.
22 And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this;

Jeremiah 50:17

17 Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.



The second beast is like to a bear. Russia is symbolized by a bear. This could represent Russia.

The second beast is like to a bear. The football team in Chicago is symbolized by a bear. This could represent the Chicago Bears football team.

http://oldstylesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/chicago-bears-logo-294x300.gif

Unfortunately, we can't use this line of reasoning when interpreting Biblical symbols, or we'd have no hope of making sense of prophecy. Our definitions must come from the Bible and the Bible alone!

Daniel 5:28

28 Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

Daniel 5:30-31

30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

The book of Daniel makes it clear Darius the Median conquered Babylon. Isaiah and Jeremiah confirm this.

Isaiah 13:17-22

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and Satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Jeremiah 51:10-12

10 The Lord hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the Lord our God.
11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance of his temple.
12 Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for the Lord hath both devised and done that which he spake against the inhabitants of Babylon.

Jeremiah 51:28-30

28 Prepare against her the nations with the kings of the Medes, the captains thereof, and all the rulers thereof, and all the land of his dominion.
29 And the land shall tremble and sorrow: for every purpose of the Lord shall be performed against Babylon, to make the land of Babylon a desolation without an inhabitant.
30 The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwellingplaces; her bars are broken.



The third beast is a leopard with 4 heads and four wings of a fowl. The official symbol of Germany is a black eagle, its unofficial symbol is a leopard. 4 heads would represent four times that this nation has risen to power.

Medo-Persia was defeated by Greece.
Daniel identifies the third beast as the king of Grecia or Greece.

Daniel 8:20-21

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


The fourth beast was the most terrifying to Daniel. It had 10 horns. This is the 10-nation union that the little horn (or Antichrist) is supposed to rise up from, speaking great things and making war against the saints and conquering them. In modern times, we don't know for sure who the 10-horned beast is quite yet, though the 10-member Western European Union is a possilbility.

The beast with 10 horns is Rome. The 10 horns represent 10 kingdoms that arise out of Rome.

http://www.tagnet.org/glenburnie/10tribes.jpg

The Ostrogoths, Visigoths, and Vandals were wiped out by the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church claims they exterminated those tribes because they were "Aryan", but we have no actual proof because all their writings were destroyed. Those were the 3 horns from which arose the little horn.



Look at these beasts and at the beast of a Rev 13.

Lion - 1 head
Bear - 1 head
Leopard - 4 heads
10 horned beast - 1 head w/ 10 horns

The beast of Rev 13:1 is described as having 7 heads and 10 horns. In Rev 13:2 we see that it was like unto a leopard, with feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. The beast of Rev 13 is a composite beast of the beasts of Daniel 7. This composite beast has the power to make war against the saints and to conquer them (Rev 13:7).

Missing from the composite beast are the wings of the eagle, which are seen in Rev 12, giving aid to the woman in her flight. If the woman in Rev 12 is Israel, then there is the possibility that the United States remains her friend all the way through these things which must be hereafter.

A woman represents a church.

Jeremiah 6:2
I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

The woman riding the beast represents the church state we know as papal Rome.


Getting back on track to understanding the head that received a deadly wound that was healed, causing the world to wonder after the composite beast, one of the heads of that composite beast did receive a deadly wound and it was healed. In a Life Magazine article in 1968, George W. Ball (U.S. Under-Secretary of State), referred to the Berlin Wall as "the division that festers like a rusty knife wound". The USA Today called the Berlin Wall a "29-mile wound that won't heal" in August 1986. Time Magazine said on Nov 20, 1989 in an article titled, "Wall of Shame 1961-1989", "it was the most palpable evidence of a deep wound in European civilization - and it is finally gone."

The nearly fatal head wound suffered by the composite beast in Rev 13 appears to be the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. Did the world wonder after the beast following the fall? Yes. Shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall, we heard people speaking of the now present possibility of a New World Order (President George H. Bush). In Sept 1991, Dick Cheney spoke of the world being in a "new era of promise that started two years ago with the collapse of the Berlin Wall."

I could be wrong, but this does appear to be the healing of a deadly wound that one of the heads of the beast of Rev 13 suffered.

Let me know what you think.

ServantoftheKing

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/lateran1.gif

Heal Wound of Many Years

The wound to the head happened when Rome ceased its existence as a church state. The Vatican was restored in 1929 and became a church state once again.

God Bless!

Searcher1
Mar 28th 2009, 06:38 PM
The way I understand the symbolism is that each head on the beast represents an Empire in the Middle East which rules over those lands (body) When each head fell then the next head is the next empire to rule over those lands and peoples.

So when a head is slain by the sword it is defeated by war. This means the empire under that head is died. In the case of the 7th head, or empire, after it's death it comes back to life as an empire once again.

To me this is what happens when the 8th ruler, which is really one of the 7 brings the empire back into power, or back to life.

My understanding through the other prophecies that speak of this last empire it will be an Empire that reemerges from the lands of the Middle east. I see the 7th empire as the Islamic Empire and it's death by war as taking place at the end of WWI. But it will live again under the control of the angel from the bottomless pit.

God bless,
Norma

Searcher1
Mar 28th 2009, 06:44 PM
I believe that this map shows the 10 horns of the Middle East that will give their power to the beast in the end days.

The middle East was divided into 10 nations after the empire fell. The of the provinces where combined into one nation when Iraq was added.

http://seder.topcities.com/10kings2.jpg

If these are the ten then I would suspect that Iraq will be divided again into three countries. If this is wrong then there are two other countries in the Middle east that are part of the ten, such as Yemen and Omen, which that are mentioned in Ezekiel 38.

Jude
Mar 28th 2009, 09:16 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/9668scd.jpg

Enter Paul Washer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7UyZYpeReY&feature=recommended

Jude

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif