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Adam168
Dec 8th 2007, 11:45 PM
And if you can try to do without all the premil stuff and all that. It just confuses me. Ok, some people think Revelations is talking about a time to come and some think that he was just talking about the Roman empire. How are we supposed to know which is right? And if he was NOT talkin about a time to come doesn't that mean that there will NEVER be a rapture?

Brother Mark
Dec 8th 2007, 11:58 PM
Hi Adam. I rarely visit the end times board. But here's my 2 cents worth on Revelation and the rapture. I like to compare Matt 24 with Rev. and see what I get.

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
NASU

Here's what Rev says about the event.

Rev 6:12-17

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
NASU

Notice how the moon and sun are darkened and the stars fall down and this is after the first 5 seals. Matthew 24 said after that occurred, then the gathering of the saints (the rapture) would occur.

Look at what happens in Rev. 7

Rev 7:9-17

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

" Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,

" Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 " They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."
NASU

Adam, my personal belief is we will be raptured out of the tribulation period when the 6th seal is broken and the wrath of the Lamb is poured out on the earth.

There is more details to look at, but this pretty much sums up my position on it.

Blessings,

Mark

calidog
Dec 9th 2007, 12:01 AM
The best thing to do is keep on reading it through. If you have read through the rest of the bible, it will make sense. What you might try is read the first 3 or 4 chapters of genesis to get the rythym then immediately begin to read revelation .

Hopefully you will soon discover what is meant by:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Soj
Dec 9th 2007, 12:05 AM
And if you can try to do without all the premil stuff and all that. It just confuses me. Ok, some people think Revelations is talking about a time to come and some think that he was just talking about the Roman empire. How are we supposed to know which is right? And if he was NOT talkin about a time to come doesn't that mean that there will NEVER be a rapture?Hi Adam,

This book tells of the revelation of Jesus Christ to this world, it is a prophetic book which descibes future events, specifically detailing the 7 year tribulation period on this earth and the second coming of Jesus Christ to this earth.

The Book of Revelation takes us clear through the Tribulation FOUR times and gives FOUR accounts of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, exactly as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John give us FOUR accounts of the first coming of Christ to this earth.

1st account of Tribulation = chapters 5-6
Chapter 7 is parenthetical
2nd account of Tribulation = chapters 8-11 ending in Rev 11:15
Chapter 10 is a parenthesis
3rd account of Tribulation = chapters 12-14 ending in Rev 14:20
4th account of Tribulation = chapters 15-19

Each account through the Tribulation the emphasis is put on a different thing, Rev 5-6 takes us through the seals, Rev 8-11 takes us through the trumpets, Rev 12-14 takes us through the activites of the Antichrist, Rev 15-19 takes us through the seven vials and destruction of Babylon the Great.

This great book ends with 'they lived happily ever after' and gives us a glimpse of eternity future where God creates a new heaven and earth where His people will be in His presence for ever and ever, amen.

I love most of all how it ends with "even so, come, Lord Jesus!"


That should give you a start, now go read and study it! :thumbsup:

Adam168
Dec 9th 2007, 12:13 AM
What about those people that say he was merely talking about Rome? How do you know he was talking about the future and not talking about his present time?

Pleroo
Dec 9th 2007, 01:13 AM
And if you can try to do without all the premil stuff and all that. It just confuses me. Ok, some people think Revelations is talking about a time to come and some think that he was just talking about the Roman empire. How are we supposed to know which is right? And if he was NOT talkin about a time to come doesn't that mean that there will NEVER be a rapture?

Hi Adam,

Two things that someone pointed out have helped me tremendously with this book.

First, think on these passages when you are trying to figure out if this is something that only happened in the past or will only happen sometime in the future:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 4:8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come."

Secondly, remember that it is the Revelation (revealing) of JESUS CHRIST (Rev 1:1). That's the WHO that was [past], is [present] and is [future] to come. Focusing on that helps to put things in this book in the proper perspective.

Edit: A third thing that is also important:

Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John, (YLT)

It's a book of SIGNS -- symbols of spiritual truths.

Pleroo
Dec 9th 2007, 01:49 AM
:) Just to complete the thought:

JESUS CHRIST was, is and is to come ... where?


2 Pet 1:4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Rom 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.


We participate in the divine nature, and God's glory will be revealed in us, through Christ in us. The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was, is, and is to come IN US.

Christ-4-D
Dec 10th 2007, 12:01 AM
Revelations was written when Christians were being persecuted because of their faith in Jesus. I believe it tells us to keep our faith alive and trust everything will be fine if Jesus is accepted as our saviour.

There is a lot of language used in revelations which makes it difficult to understand as it relates to several visions seen back in the day. Though these visions, the same messages are re-enforced - Satan can be defeated through Christ. We will be rewarded to show him our committement.

HisLeast
Dec 11th 2007, 03:50 PM
Hey Adam,

Welcome to one of the most hotly contested books in all of Christendom. The best advise I was ever given about Revelation is to
1) Stop listening to what everyone else says
2) Stop reading revelations
3) Read the new testament cover to cover
4) Read the old testament
5) Now start reading revelations as if you'd never heard of it.

For me, I haven't got a clue about the premil, postmil, a-mil, pre-wrath, partial/full preterism, and all that hullabaloo. What I DO know is that Revelation contains several messages to different churches which can be applicable to each of us in different stages of our walk.

Read Revelations first and foremost with the idea of "How does this improve my walk with the Lord RIGHT NOW"

AlainaJ
Dec 11th 2007, 04:36 PM
And if you can try to do without all the premil stuff and all that. It just confuses me. Ok, some people think Revelations is talking about a time to come and some think that he was just talking about the Roman empire. How are we supposed to know which is right? And if he was NOT talkin about a time to come doesn't that mean that there will NEVER be a rapture?
Hi Adam,

God will reveal it to you. When you read the Word, read it with an open mind. What I did is forgot all the theories out there and just read Revelation. I would pray for the Holy Spirit to show me and help me understand.

God did indeed show me many things...most of which were very different then what is being taught today.

I also did some research and read some old commentaries such as Matthew Henry- but really iot was God who did it.

Alaina

revrobor
Dec 13th 2007, 02:18 AM
And if you can try to do without all the premil stuff and all that. It just confuses me. Ok, some people think Revelations is talking about a time to come and some think that he was just talking about the Roman empire. How are we supposed to know which is right? And if he was NOT talkin about a time to come doesn't that mean that there will NEVER be a rapture?

This answer will probably surprise you but no one completely understands Revelation. That's why there are so many different interpretations. And frankly, it's not going to have any effect on your salvation one way or another. I am convince that there are many who claim to know John's visions and what they mean as sort of an ego trip. I would say understand what you can and don't sweat the rest. What's going to happen will happen and those of us who have surrendered our lives to the Lord have nothing to worry about. God bless you brother.

brandonspopo
Dec 23rd 2007, 08:42 PM
I shutter to think (and don't believe) that God would make His children suffer the Trib and the coming Armageddon. After the Rapture, only those gentiles who are beheaded for Christ will be saved.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
That's why I hold that we will be raptured.

HisLeast
Dec 26th 2007, 07:05 PM
I shutter to think (and don't believe) that God would make His children suffer the Trib and the coming Armageddon.

But just look (http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php) at what God allows for his children today!

brandonspopo
Dec 26th 2007, 08:09 PM
Sure, many are suffering and dying for their faith, but this is nothing compared to the truly horrific events described in Daniel and Revelation. I believe that one of the "rewards" (promises) for our surrendering to Christ is the escape from the tribulation. Those left after the Rapture will have to be beheaded for their faith in order to be saved.

HisLeast
Dec 26th 2007, 09:07 PM
Sure, many are suffering and dying for their faith, but this is nothing compared to the truly horrific events described in Daniel and Revelation. I believe that one of the "rewards" (promises) for our surrendering to Christ is the escape from the tribulation. Those left after the Rapture will have to be beheaded for their faith in order to be saved.

But people are being beheaded TODAY for their faith.

Mograce2U
Dec 27th 2007, 12:47 AM
This answer will probably surprise you but no one completely understands Revelation. That's why there are so many different interpretations. And frankly, it's not going to have any effect on your salvation one way or another. I am convince that there are many who claim to know John's visions and what they mean as sort of an ego trip. I would say understand what you can and don't sweat the rest. What's going to happen will happen and those of us who have surrendered our lives to the Lord have nothing to worry about. God bless you brother.Are you sure about that?

(Revelation 22:18-19) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: {19} And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

In order to have "many interpretations" you have to add to or take away something from the book. The only reason that it would not make a difference to our salvation is if the things it speaks about have already happened! Except of course the very end which we all think is yet to come. ;)

HisLeast
Dec 27th 2007, 01:03 AM
Are you sure about that?

(Revelation 22:18-19) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: {19} And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

In order to have "many interpretations" you have to add to or take away something from the book. The only reason that it would not make a difference to our salvation is if the things it speaks about have already happened! Except of course the very end which we all think is yet to come. ;)

But ask each one of us for the full and proper interpretation of Revelations and you're going to get a different answer from every person. So which ONEof us are really truly saved?

Soj
Dec 27th 2007, 01:43 AM
But ask each one of us for the full and proper interpretation of Revelations and you're going to get a different answer from every person.Yet there doesn't HAVE to be a different answer from every person!

I personally know many Christians (regrettably none on this board) who are in agreement with their eschatology, and oh how refreshing it is to have discussions about the book of Revelation with like-minded believers!

Mograce2U
Dec 27th 2007, 01:48 AM
But ask each one of us for the full and proper interpretation of Revelations and you're going to get a different answer from every person. So which ONEof us are really truly saved?That's why I said that if most of it is in the past then it probably doesn't matter.

HisLeast
Dec 27th 2007, 01:53 AM
Yet there doesn't HAVE to be a different answer from every person!

Very well... which one of us here is correct so we can all be in agreement?


I personally know many Christians (regrettably none on this board) who are in agreement with their eschatology, and oh how refreshing it is to have discussions about the book of Revelation with like-minded believers!

I've been to probably 100 churches across the US and each of them seem to have an "in house" agreement on their eschatology, but that doesn't change the fact that amongst Christians as a whole, there's no less than half a dozen dissimilar interpretations on the text.

brandonspopo
Dec 27th 2007, 03:17 AM
But people are being beheaded TODAY for their faith.
It's not the same. Not many Christians get beheaded for their faith now. Revelation tell us that during the trib., it will have to happen to those left behind who accept Christ as the Messiah and don't take the mark of the beast. Every Christian who is saved after the rapture will be martyred that way!:cry: