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napsnsnacks
Dec 10th 2007, 12:25 PM
I have been thinking about something that is possible, could be far fetched I guess, but still possible. I think it may have some merit.

With the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in whatever compromised position it is in for the purpose of rebuilding the temple couldn't they just reconstruct the original and use that? Since the temple mount isn't accessible that possibly could equal to being in the wilderness and being in need of a temple.

dworthington
Dec 10th 2007, 12:41 PM
Look at what Amos 9:11 says and then do a study on David's tabernacle.

napsnsnacks
Dec 10th 2007, 02:12 PM
AMOS 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

I was checking these out too:

http://www.bibleplaces.com/tabernacle.htm

http://www.thirdtemple.com/Shilo1/gallery.htm

David Taylor
Dec 10th 2007, 04:43 PM
I have been thinking about something that is possible, could be far fetched I guess, but still possible. I think it may have some merit.

With the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in whatever compromised position it is in for the purpose of rebuilding the temple couldn't they just reconstruct the original and use that? Since the temple mount isn't accessible that possibly could equal to being in the wilderness and being in need of a temple.


Maybe it isn't accessible because it a temple made with hands will never be rebuilt; since Jesus Himself said that He was the temple made without hands, and Jesus also said 'this temple' the one made with hands, would be destroy and not one stone left upon another.

If that temple made with hands was rebuilt, then Jesus' prophecy would be voided...and the builders would put Jesus in a position of error.

napsnsnacks
Dec 10th 2007, 06:35 PM
I just noticed that I left out the e in Tabernacle. LOL.

David Taylor
Dec 10th 2007, 06:58 PM
Prophecy in OT Scripture:
AMOS 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:



Fulfillment in NT Scripture:
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up"

Hebrews 9:8 "while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building"

Kahtar
Dec 10th 2007, 11:11 PM
Somehow I don't think that if the Jews DO build another temple that it will have any effect at all on Christ, or on prophecy. It'll just be a bunch of misguided Rabbinic Jews doing what they do best, ie their own thing.
If they do rebuild it, and start sacrifices again, what does that have to do with Christ, prophecy, the church or anything else?
Their sacrifices will still be just as pointless as they were before the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. A temple without the ark and mercy seat is just an empty building. That was the condition of Herod's temple. One built today would be no different.

Wintermute
Dec 10th 2007, 11:54 PM
Fulfillment in NT Scripture:
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up"

Hebrews 9:8 "while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building"Wow, I love these! Thanks.

third hero
Dec 11th 2007, 12:02 AM
Somehow I don't think that if the Jews DO build another temple that it will have any effect at all on Christ, or on prophecy. It'll just be a bunch of misguided Rabbinic Jews doing what they do best, ie their own thing.
If they do rebuild it, and start sacrifices again, what does that have to do with Christ, prophecy, the church or anything else?
Their sacrifices will still be just as pointless as they were before the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. A temple without the ark and mercy seat is just an empty building. That was the condition of Herod's temple. One built today would be no different.

To answer that question, I would have to say that the rabbinic Jews would built a temple for their king... the beast. And just like they did back in ancient days when they had the True God on their side, they will betray thir false god as well, sparking the desolation in the Abomination that causes desolation. That is the significance of the next temple built by hands of men. Will it please God that they will build another temple? of course not! However, that won't stop them, becasue they have to participate in the sins of their forefathers.

third hero
Dec 11th 2007, 12:04 AM
Fulfillment in NT Scripture:
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up"

Hebrews 9:8 "while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building"

well, can't argue against that one!:pp

napsnsnacks
Dec 11th 2007, 07:11 AM
Maybe it isn't accessible because it a temple made with hands will never be rebuilt; since Jesus Himself said that He was the temple made without hands, and Jesus also said 'this temple' the one made with hands, would be destroy and not one stone left upon another.

If that temple made with hands was rebuilt, then Jesus' prophecy would be voided...and the builders would put Jesus in a position of error.

Yeah I know but this isn't the issue at hand.

The issue is with these people who reject Christ not only mostly as individuals but nationally.

There is and has been a big movement in Israel for the people to get back to what they are and are supposed to be (obviously outside of the Messiah) not only individually but nationally with a religious government body so the only conclusion to be made is that they want a temple, they need a temple and will HAVE a temple whether it be on the temple mount or in the original tabernacle form and regardless what Christian theology says of the matter.

I rarely speak of it but I think that the only way that Israel will become nationally religious with an official temple is if a civil war is engaged in so that the secular government who forever fights the reinstitution of Israel as a religious nation being governed by the Torah and Talmud is removed.

As for antichrist standing in said temple and claiming to be God he would be effectively claiming sole rulership of Israel and its people so I think it would be very difficult for antichrist to have any real of effectual presence upon the Jewish people as such if not first the secular government of Israel is deposed or that same civil war will break out shortly after antichrists proclamations to be God because in that act itself is voiding Israel's current government and will have serious backlash.

So when all these people are heading for the hills (Petra I think) they will be mostly Christian Jews (for whatever racial or social definition they may have at that time) fleeing persecution of their own government, a government run by one who claims to be God.

I think this interior war will precede antichrists claim because Israel needs to be nationally primed under a religious government to gain wide acceptance of himself when the time comes or else he would just look like one more small time cult leader with a messiah complex.

This is why many times I put off accepting that this is the end of the world today because Israel's government is secular and for antichrist to deceive Israel outside of him having a small following the government would have to, prior to this, be disposed of in exchange for a government capable of supporting and accepting one who claimed to be God and doing so with popular public support.

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 01:02 PM
Yeah I know but this isn't the issue at hand.

The issue is with these people who reject Christ not only mostly as individuals but nationally.



Isn't that the state of the Israeli rulers and government at the time in first century A.D. when Jesus prophesied the temple made with hands would be destroyed?

Can't see where the present rulers and the 1st century rulers are any different in their rejection of Christ....so why would Jesus take away the temple made with hands from one bunch of folks who reject Him; but then allow those stones to be reassembled for another bunch on down the line who reject Him?

Jesus didn't say 'one stone will not be left on another...until the 21st century when they will be restored while still in rejection of Me"

Jesus simple said the temple made with hands would be destroyed, and not one stone left on another.

Seems to me to reassemble the stones, is to limit Jesus' prophecy in a way He himself didn't limit it.

third hero
Dec 11th 2007, 01:12 PM
Isn't that the state of the Israeli rulers and government at the time in first century A.D. when Jesus prophesied the temple made with hands would be destroyed?

Can't see where the present rulers and the 1st century rulers are any different in their rejection of Christ....so why would Jesus take away the temple made with hands from one bunch of folks who reject Him; but then allow those stones to be reassembled for another bunch on down the line who reject Him?

Jesus didn't say 'one stone will not be left on another...until the 21st century when they will be restored while still in rejection of Me"

Jesus simple said the temple made with hands would be destroyed, and not one stone left on another.

Seems to me to reassemble the stones, is to limit Jesus' prophecy in a way He himself didn't limit it.

I definitely see your point here David, but I do not know if you see what they are trying to say. Or maybe becasue their conclusions line up with my POV concerning the temple and the end, I am missing something. Anyway, here we go.

Accoding to Zechariah 12, it is prophesied that they, the Israelites, will mourn and be bitter over their and their forefathers sins. (verse 10) In order for them to be bitter over their forefathers' sins, they too must participate in them. Hence the reason for the third temple.

You and I agree that although they will call it God's Temple, that God will have no part of it, because tue worshippers worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. No temple required.

However, in order for the son of perdition, the man of sin to be revealed in the same manner as described in 2 Thes 2:3-4, a temple must be around. Also, in order for the rest of the scripture in Zech 12 to be fulfilled, the people who survive the massacre that the Abomination that Causes Desolation will cause will mourn over not only their sins, but those of their forefathers. Sacrificing after the Death of Christ is one of those sins, and is in fact THE shared sin between their forefathers and themselves, which is the same sin as the rest of the world, rejection of the Messiah.

So, Yes, I see your point, that God does not need a temple ever again, and God will not sanction or sanctify any more temples. And I agree wholeheartedly. However, I believe that even if God is not a part of any temple, that is not going to stop Secular Israel from building one. The only thing though is that they will find out that their efforts will most definitely be in vain.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 11th 2007, 01:22 PM
Third Hero,

"Temple of God" of 2 Thess. 2:4 is speak of Church, thaat Satan shall make war or rule over saints. Also, in 1 Cor. 3:16-17; and 6:19-20 telling us, that we are the temple of God, which Christ dwells in us. We will not see future literal building temple. Christ already destroyed it, and he raised it up in three days - John 2:19-21- speak of his resurrection, and He is the temple. We do not need earthly temple. Christ is our temple, because He dwells in us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 01:22 PM
I definitely see your point here David, but I do not know if you see what they are trying to say. Or maybe becasue their conclusions line up with my POV concerning the temple and the end, I am missing something. Anyway, here we go.

Accoding to Zechariah 12, it is prophesied that they, the Israelites, will mourn and be bitter over their and their forefathers sins. (verse 10) In order for them to be bitter over their forefathers' sins, they too must participate in them. Hence the reason for the third temple.

You lost me on the "hence the third temple" result.

Why can't simple repentence and redemption through Christ accomplish relieving their heartache over ancestrial sins?

Do you see this being accomplised for 'the fathers' through another rebuilt stone building, of through turning to Christ?

Psalms 78:6 "That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children: That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments: And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God."





You and I agree that although they will call it God's Temple, that God will have no part of it, because tue worshippers worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. No temple required.

I believe God not having a part in it, is why He destroyed it...kinda emphatic way for Him to have dealt with a temple made with hands....remove every stone.



However, I believe that even if God is not a part of any temple, that is not going to stop Secular Israel from building one.

Then why was it even destroyed in the first place, if only to be rebuilt again later in disobedience and again in rejection of Christ?

third hero
Dec 11th 2007, 01:25 PM
Yeah I know but this isn't the issue at hand.

The issue is with these people who reject Christ not only mostly as individuals but nationally.

There is and has been a big movement in Israel for the people to get back to what they are and are supposed to be (obviously outside of the Messiah) not only individually but nationally with a religious government body so the only conclusion to be made is that they want a temple, they need a temple and will HAVE a temple whether it be on the temple mount or in the original tabernacle form and regardless what Christian theology says of the matter.

I rarely speak of it but I think that the only way that Israel will become nationally religious with an official temple is if a civil war is engaged in so that the secular government who forever fights the reinstitution of Israel as a religious nation being governed by the Torah and Talmud is removed.

As for antichrist standing in said temple and claiming to be God he would be effectively claiming sole rulership of Israel and its people so I think it would be very difficult for antichrist to have any real of effectual presence upon the Jewish people as such if not first the secular government of Israel is deposed or that same civil war will break out shortly after antichrists proclamations to be God because in that act itself is voiding Israel's current government and will have serious backlash.

So when all these people are heading for the hills (Petra I think) they will be mostly Christian Jews (for whatever racial or social definition they may have at that time) fleeing persecution of their own government, a government run by one who claims to be God.

I think this interior war will precede antichrists claim because Israel needs to be nationally primed under a religious government to gain wide acceptance of himself when the time comes or else he would just look like one more small time cult leader with a messiah complex.

This is why many times I put off accepting that this is the end of the world today because Israel's government is secular and for antichrist to deceive Israel outside of him having a small following the government would have to, prior to this, be disposed of in exchange for a government capable of supporting and accepting one who claimed to be God and doing so with popular public support.

To your point, I have this to add. One thing that could produce that kind of effect is a world war. Bear with me a second.

The Fifth trumpet of Woe has a prophecy of a war that consumes 1/3 of mankind. The Book of Ezekiel has Gog being a collaboration of several portions of what is now called Russia, teaming up with Iran, (which was originally Persia), and some nations of Africa. They attack Israel in that very same chapter (chapter 38).

Now, fast forward to today. Iran, with her big mouth President, is antagonizing the world, and especially Israel, with talk of wiping Israel off of the map. He is threatening Israel with its own destruction. Israel is backed by the USA. Russia and China, the other two nuclear superpowers in the world today are backing Iran. (BTW India and Pakistan are American allies as well, touting Nukes). Imagine what will happen if Iran strikes Israel, and Israel strikes back? World War 3, with the possible deaths of 2 billion + people. What happens if Israel does not strike back? Ask Ehud Barak, when the Palestinians attacked several installations of Israel and he decided to do nothing. He lost his seat. And if the government backs another Pm who decides to do nothing when Iran attacks, then we will have a civil war in Israel.

Either way, we have an end times scenario that can not be denied. Now, like you, I am sceptical, (even though I have had dream that flat out statd that we are in the end times, with me having a role in them), and I can not say for absolute certainty that we are in fact int he end times. I believe that the signs mentioned in MAtthew are happening now, and that unlike any other peroiod of time in history, they are happening in the exact order that is written by Matthew. I believe that we are indeed close. However, until I see a temple standing, I can not believe that we are going to see the Lord's return. Seeing World War III will convince me otherwise. That much is for certain.

third hero
Dec 11th 2007, 01:38 PM
You lost me on the "hence the third temple" result.

Why can't simple repentence and redemption through Christ accomplish relieving their heartache over ancestrial sins?

Do you see this being accomplised for 'the fathers' through another rebuilt stone building, of through turning to Christ?

Not everyone is like Daniel, who asked God for forgivenewss of not only his sins, but that of his ancestors. It is my opinion that the "religious" in Israel believe that their forefathers were doing the right thing in God's eyes. Why else would they resurrect the same council who was guilty of sentenceing the Lord to death, the Sanhedrin. If you follow what the religious are doing in Israel now, with trying to broker deals with Saudi Arabia and the Clerics in Jerusalem to find peceful ways to have both the temple and the Dome of the Rock share the same earth, it is now obvious that they are living according to the traditions and balsphemies of their forefathers. This is why I say that in order for their sins to be complete, they will have to build a temple, one that God does not want on this earth. This is the reason why the Beast will be able to stand in the "Holy of Holies" and proclaim himself to be God. Because the true God is not there.



I believe God not having a part in it, is why He destroyed it...kinda emphatic way for Him to have dealt with a temple made with hands....remove every stone.

As though the renting of the veil wasn't enough. I totally agree with you there.


Then why was it even destroyed in the first place, if only to be rebuilt again later in disobedience and again in rejection of Christ?

Simple answer, to have Jerusalem finish her transgressions.

third hero
Dec 11th 2007, 01:48 PM
Third Hero,

"Temple of God" of 2 Thess. 2:4 is speak of Church, thaat Satan shall make war or rule over saints. Also, in 1 Cor. 3:16-17; and 6:19-20 telling us, that we are the temple of God, which Christ dwells in us. We will not see future literal building temple. Christ already destroyed it, and he raised it up in three days - John 2:19-21- speak of his resurrection, and He is the temple. We do not need earthly temple. Christ is our temple, because He dwells in us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I c an never believe that, and here is why. I can never believe that the Church, which is suppose to be the bride of Christ, would ever allow a man who fits the bill as the "man of sin" to rule over them. Also, the man of sin can not stand in the heart of a believer, and proclaim himself to be God.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. Please bear with me a second. like I have wrote before, the true worshippers of God, which is the Church, otherwise known as us, the believers, do not need anyplace in order to worship God. Personally, I worship Him in my car quite a lot! So, I agree with you that God no longer needs a temple. In truth, God didn't need one back then. The Temple was a physical representation of God's rulership over Israel. In other words, it was a symbol.

Today, the 'religious" Israelites are patterning their relligion after the Pharisees of ancient times. they have resurrected the Sanhedrin, restarted the sacrificing again this past passover, and are currently in talks with the Muslim Clerics who control the Temple mount to build a temple in the place where archeologists now say the Temple once stood, south of the Dome of the Rock. (as a side note, I believe that they will broker a deal, and that wil be part of the "peace accord" that will send Iran into Israel, and start World War III). If a temple is built along side the Dome of the Rock, Revelation 11:1-2 becomes fulfilled, with the temple standing and the outer court given over to the Gentiles. The "religious" among the Israelites want a temple, whether God snactions it or not.

Both you and I know, as well as everyone else in here, that God will not sanction a temple, because He no longer requires one forthe worshippers. He has gotten what He wanted, a means for all flesh to worship Him, through the redemptive Blood of Lord Jesus. However, like I have stated in a previous post, the "religious" will stop at nothing to seee a temple rebuilt, even if the only purpose for it is to house the Beast, who will use it to make His proclamation of Godhood.

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 01:54 PM
This is why I say that in order for their sins to be complete, they will have to build a temple

Simple answer, to have Jerusalem finish her transgressions.


So what about the rejectant Israelites who lived between 71 AD and now?

They didn't have a rebuilt temple in order for their sins to be complete....why is a temple required for sins to be completed?

Isn't rejecting the true temple made without hands sufficient and truthfully....more severe than that?

third hero
Dec 11th 2007, 02:02 PM
So what about the rejectant Israelites who lived between 71 AD and now?

They didn't have a rebuilt temple in order for their sins to be complete....why is a temple required for sins to be completed?

Isn't rejecting the true temple made without hands sufficient and truthfully....more severe than that?

Now this is all about perspective here. I believe that rejecting the Lord is enough, but building a temple that God had already destroyed, now that is what I call the icing on the cake. It is much worse, IMHO, to throw something back in another person's face. In this case, Jesus was the last, and only true sacrifice that God accepted. What the "religious" in Israel want to do is say this:

God, we not only do not accept your Son's sacrifice, but we want you to accept ours. Whether you want to or not, you are GOING TO! We will accept nothing less!"

Now doesn't that sound a lot worse than simply saying, "I do not accept you Son's sacrifice"?

Romulus
Dec 11th 2007, 02:04 PM
So what about the rejectant Israelites who lived between 71 AD and now?

They didn't have a rebuilt temple in order for their sins to be complete....why is a temple required for sins to be completed?

Isn't rejecting the true temple made without hands sufficient and truthfully....more severe than that?


So true David. Israel of the 1st century was different then any other generation in history which culiminates in the scripture "to finish transgression". Israel of the 1st century was the generation to witness God in the flesh and their rejection of Him who was standing right before them finished the transgression once and for all. They claimed no other King but Caesar, rejecting the true King who was standing before them. Can any other generation in history be guilty of this? Of rejecting Jesus, yes.....rejecting Jesus in the flesh, no.

third hero
Dec 11th 2007, 02:12 PM
uh oh, I am in trouble now! The signal is up! Here comes the ASA! PSA assemble! (Ok, so Captain America get the copyright... oh well!)

I definitely see your point in the fact that the first century Israelite committed a grevious sin by flat out denying God and His Son. But that does not account for what they are doing today in resurrecting all of the hideous things that that generation did to deserve the destruction of the temple and the dispersing of their people. Is it not of the same ilk, to repeat the sins of the past?

What if Christians today repeated the Inquisitions? Or even the Crusades? Would we be in greater error than they, knowing what that would result in? That's where I am coming from. I say that the sins in Jerusalem are not finished, because they are actively sinning against God even at this very moment, with the Sanhedrin alive and kicking and plans for another temple being made.

napsnsnacks
Dec 11th 2007, 02:41 PM
Isn't that the state of the Israeli rulers and government at the time in first century A.D. when Jesus prophesied the temple made with hands would be destroyed?

No. At this time Israel was in its scattered condition for at least the minimum of 400 years between the OT and the NT thus Israel at this time had no national government or likewise rulers and was ruled by the Romans under Roman law.

The best they could come up with at that time were the adherents to the Talmud, the Pharisees who sat on the Sanhedrin and up until the time that these Pharisees manipulated the Romans to kill Jesus and after they assembled in a mob scene demanding Jesus death, Jesus problem was not with the Roman government but with the Pharisees. They were Jews yes but the type of religious Jew was or is important as the Talmud has nothing to do with Gods Word in the OT or the NT.

These Talmudic Pharisees operating among the people under a Roman government and the current internationally recognized state of Israel who is a ruling governing body of Israel who for the most part has nothing to do with religion doesn't stand in any comparison to me of each others era's.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 11th 2007, 02:42 PM
Cannot you understand John 2:19-21 telling us, Jesus Christ is the temple. We do not need another physical building of temple again. Christ already destroyed it(Heord's temple), and he raised it up, which speak of his body as temple. He is the temple. And we are his temple.

Do not looking on earthly things, look up heavenly things. Even, look on Jesus!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

napsnsnacks
Dec 11th 2007, 03:02 PM
Cannot you understand John 2:19-21 telling us, Jesus Christ is the temple. We do not need another physical building of temple again. Christ already destroyed it(Heord's temple), and he raised it up, which speak of his body as temple. He is the temple. And we are his temple.

Do not looking on earthly things, look up heavenly things. Even, look on Jesus!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Can't you understand that it is not the Christian or the Body of Christ or the Church that needs a temple and seeks a temple and notice that no Christian around here has recommended or proposed any such thing is needed by such person?

This is about the adherents to the Torah only or a combination of the Torah/Talmud.

Kahtar
Dec 11th 2007, 03:08 PM
Cannot you understand John 2:19-21 telling us, Jesus Christ is the temple.I'm pretty sure we all agree on this, DPT. The point is, the Jews don't agree, and are as we speak going ahead with their plans to build a temple.
No need to let such a thing change our theology, upset our opinion of prophecy or eschatology. It's just a simple fact that it is going on. It has no impact on the truth of God's Word whatever.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 11th 2007, 03:11 PM
To everyone,

Can you find a clarify verse anywhere in the New testament saying that Jews will rebuilt a physical building of temple again in the future?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 03:14 PM
No. At this time Israel was in its scattered condition for at least the minimum of 400 years between the OT and the NT thus Israel at this time had no national government or likewise rulers and was ruled by the Romans under Roman law.


The Romans ruled the entire region, but they oversaw localized rulers and kings from those regions. They didn't rule them directly, because it would cause more sedition and more rebellion.

Here was the Israeli leadership during the day of Jesus.

Matthew 2:1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king"

Luke 1:5 "THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea"

Luke 23:6 "When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked whether the man were a Galilaean. And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time. "

Acts 26:2 "I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews: Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently. My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers: Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa"

Herod and later Agrippa, were the Kings of Judea, a Jew, not a Roman....during the first century A.D.

King Herod the Great, who rebuilt the 2nd Temple prior to its destruction, and King Herod Antipas who beheaded John the Baptist, and King Herod Agrippa after them who met with Paul...all Kings of Judea while under Roman occupation.

Similarly, the Northern region of Israel was ruled by Herod Antipas's brother King Archelaus, after the death of Herod the Great.

Matthew 2:22 "But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod"

Also, Herod Philip II, was another one of the Jewish rulers; and another son of King Herod the Great.
Luke 3:1 "Herod was ruler of Galilee, and his brother Philip ruler of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis."

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 03:21 PM
Can't you understand that it is not the Christian or the Body of Christ or the Church that needs a temple and seeks a temple and notice that no Christian around here has recommended or proposed any such thing is needed by such person?

This is about the adherents to the Torah only or a combination of the Torah/Talmud.

Non-Christians don't need a temple either.

They simple need to find Jesus.

Jesus, the one who said the temple made with hands would be destroyed and not one stone left upon another.

...wouldn't a rebuild temple made with hands simply makes Jesus into a false-prophet, if the stones are placed back ontop of one another again?

DeafPosttrib
Dec 11th 2007, 03:34 PM
David,

Amen. Well saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Kahtar
Dec 11th 2007, 04:33 PM
Non-Christians don't need a temple either.Absolutely true, and I'm pretty sure we all agree on that.

They simple need to find Jesus.Again absolutely true and we all agree.

Jesus, the one who said the temple made with hands would be destroyed and not one stone left upon another.Yes, correct, and it happened exactly that way.

...wouldn't a rebuild temple made with hands simply makes Jesus into a false-prophet, if the stones are placed back ontop of one another again?A rebuilt temple wouldn't have any effect whatever on Jesus. It wouldn't make Him into anything. Jesus would remain the Son of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and we his children and priests.
A rebuilt temple would do nothing more than exemplify the disobedience and outright rebellion that already exists and has existed for millenia.

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 05:17 PM
A rebuilt temple wouldn't have any effect whatever on Jesus. It wouldn't make Him into anything. Jesus would remain the Son of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and we his children and priests.
I agree with you, of course.



A rebuilt temple would do nothing more than exemplify the disobedience and outright rebellion that already exists and has existed for millenia.


Yes, but my point here is, if Jesus prophesied that the temple would be destroyed, and not one stone would remain upon another...how could one ever be rebuilt, and those unpiled stones ever be reassembled?

If Jesus is true to his word by his prophecy, it seems to me that the stones will remain destroyed and never reassmbled or placed back upon one another.

By the very fact that the temple doesn't stand....Jesus words from his prophecy continue to ring true.

If it is rebuilt, then the stones are put back on top of one another, the temple does stand, and Jesus prophecy would no longer match reality.

Because of that, I don't see how one could ever be reassembled.

Kahtar
Dec 11th 2007, 05:22 PM
Just out of curiosity, and because I am too lazy to search it out:rolleyes::lol:, do you have a scripture reference that says the destroyed temple will remain destroyed forever? I don't recall one.
I do see where Jesus prophecied it's destruction, but not where it would never again be built.

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 06:22 PM
Just out of curiosity, and because I am too lazy to search it out:rolleyes::lol:, do you have a scripture reference that says the destroyed temple will remain destroyed forever? I don't recall one.
I do see where Jesus prophecied it's destruction, but not where it would never again be built.

It seems clearly implied in the text.

Jesus replaced the temple made with hands, with a temple made without hands.

Mark 14:58 "I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. "

If the temple made with hands was only a temporary destruction (as you seem to be interpretting it), it would mean that the temple made without hands would only be a temporary replacement....or at the very least, a time is coming when they will both co-exist together following the emphatic destruction of the inferior one.

Not one stone will be found on another....that's another way of saying,
"When it is destroyed, it will never be rebuilt".

When Stephen was asked about the destruction of the temple made with hands, here is what was said:

Acts 6:13 "This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law: For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us."

Why was the temple destroyed in the first place then?

third hero
Dec 11th 2007, 06:47 PM
To everyone,

Can you find a clarify verse anywhere in the New testament saying that Jews will rebuilt a physical building of temple again in the future?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. -Revelation 11:1-2

Here is another verse that has not been fulfilled yet.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thes 2:3-4

I have a question. Since the death of the Lord, was the temple of God still God's temple after the veil was ripped? THe answer is NO. It was still a temple dedicated to Him, but as of th renting of that cloth, the Spirit of God left that place, never to return. From Penticost onward, the true temple of God became the heart and soul of a believer. This is God's temple.

Now, let us not forget that when Paul wrote this chapter, he knew that the temple still stood, and he is the one that wrote earlier that the true Temple of God is in us, and we find that in Ephesians. So, are you telling me that the Man of sin, the Son of perdition, the beast, who is called by many the antichrist, will stand in the heart of a believer and proclaim himself to be God? How much sense does that make? Just because God is not in a house, that does not stop wicked men from building a place and dedicating it to who they think is God.

Revelation 11, especially if one takes Polycarp's POV and believe that Revelation was written around 94-95AD, proves that another temple is going to be built, especially since John wrote this after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Ta-An
Dec 11th 2007, 07:18 PM
Look at what Amos 9:11 says and then do a study on David's tabernacle. Ahhhhh David's tabernacle.... do you know what this is?? It is not the Temple,,,,,, it clearly says "tabernacle"
2 Sam 6:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=10&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

Do you know the difference between David's tabernacle and the Tabernacle of the congegration ??:hmm:

The End-times I believe will be here when the Tabernacle of David is restored..... thus the Tabernacle of Worship

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 08:28 PM
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. -Revelation 11:1-2


Is this verse above written from the perspective of rebuilding and measuring, or measuring a rebult temple.....

or does it simple say measure the temple?

When I search the NT for references to the temple, and its courts, and its altar....those internal references tell me the temple is Herod's temple, and not a different, rebuilt one.

I would have to assume (because the text doesn't tell me differently), that the temple that is being measured is a different one.






Here is another verse that has not been fulfilled yet.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thes 2:3-4

I have a question. Since the death of the Lord, was the temple of God still God's temple after the veil was ripped? THe answer is NO. It was still a temple dedicated to Him, but as of th renting of that cloth, the Spirit of God left that place, never to return. From Penticost onward, the true temple of God became the heart and soul of a believer. This is God's temple.

From Pentecost onward, or from Jesus' resurrection onward?

Mark 14:58 "I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. "

John 20:21 "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

What if the 'temple of God' in 2 Thess above, is referring to the endtime-apostacy where Satan infiltrates the church, and causes many to fall away from the truth? (as opposed to assuming a rebuilt building that has no purpose)




Now, let us not forget that when Paul wrote this chapter, he knew that the temple still stood, and he is the one that wrote earlier that the true Temple of God is in us, and we find that in Ephesians. So, are you telling me that the Man of sin, the Son of perdition, the beast, who is called by many the antichrist, will stand in the heart of a believer and proclaim himself to be God? How much sense does that make? Just because God is not in a house, that does not stop wicked men from building a place and dedicating it to who they think is God.

I don't think Satan will stand in the heart of a believer...but he will infiltrate God's people, and as the apostacy and rebellion grow, effect more and more to turn away from God and follow him. Does that make any sense?




Revelation 11, especially if one takes Polycarp's POV and believe that Revelation was written around 94-95AD, proves that another temple is going to be built, especially since John wrote this after the destruction of Jerusalem.

But Polycarp doesn't give a point of view.

Eusibius quotes Irenaeus who is speaking for Polycarp in a vague and ambiguous manner in regards to Revelation.

Take away a couple of assumptions here, and you might see that there will never be a return and a rebuild to a temple made with hands....and will answer the question as to why the N.T. never discusses the rebuilding of it.

4 chapters in Exodus discuss the building of the Tabernacle.
4 chapters in I Kings discuss the building of Solomon's temple.
5 chapters in I Chronicles discuss the building of Solomon's temple.
5 chapters in Ezra discuss the building of Zerubbabel's temple.
3 chapters in Nehemiah discuss the building of Zerubbabel's temple.
8 chapters in Ezekiel discuss the building of Zerubbabel's temple.
7 chapters in Matthew discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.
5 chapters in Mark discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.
11 chapters in Luke discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.
7 chapters in John discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.
10 chapters in Acts discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.

That's 70 chapters in the OT and NT that talk explicitly and in detail about either building a temple, or about the existing temple made with hands.

Does it ever make you scratch your head as to why the N.T. doesn't make any clear, any indepth, or give any volume of evidence to the notion that there will be another rebuilt temple....beyond two verses, one in 2 Thess and one in Rev 11? (which both can be explained without forcing them to say they are future rebuilt temples that no other scripture corrobberates?)

Following the last mention in Acts that is clearly contexted about Herod's temple....are there other 'temple of God' references after that?

None clearly in regards to a stone temple made with hands.

Then why hold to an eschatology that requires that expectation Doug?

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 08:33 PM
Ahhhhh David's tabernacle.... do you know what this is?? It is not the Temple,,,,,, it clearly says "tabernacle"
2 Sam 6:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=10&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

Do you know the difference between David's tabernacle and the Tabernacle of the congegration ??:hmm:



Thanks ACCM....we looked at the Amos 9 passage that talks about when the tabernacle of David would be raised...

Prophecy in OT Scripture:
AMOS 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

Isaiah 16:1, 5 "Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion. And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness."





Fulfillment in NT Scripture:
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up"

Hebrews 9:8 "while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building"

Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David"

losthorizon
Dec 11th 2007, 11:57 PM
...Here is another verse that has not been fulfilled yet.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thes 2:3-4

I have a question. Since the death of the Lord, was the temple of God still God's temple after the veil was ripped? THe answer is NO. It was still a temple dedicated to Him, but as of th renting of that cloth, the Spirit of God left that place, never to return. From Penticost onward, the true temple of God became the heart and soul of a believer. This is God's temple.

Now, let us not forget that when Paul wrote this chapter, he knew that the temple still stood, and he is the one that wrote earlier that the true Temple of God is in us, and we find that in Ephesians. So, are you telling me that the Man of sin, the Son of perdition, the beast, who is called by many the antichrist, will stand in the heart of a believer and proclaim himself to be God? How much sense does that make? Just because God is not in a house, that does not stop wicked men from building a place and dedicating it to who they think is God.


I would tell you the verse has been fulfilled - the “son of perdition” who “sitteth in the temple of God” has already made his appearance on the world stage and the “temple of God” that Paul speaks about in the above passage has absolutely nothing to do with the “temple built with hands” in Jerusalem. If you wish to see the one who “exalteth himself above all that is called God” you only need go to Latitude: 41.90 and Longitude: 12.50 – that is where is resides today.
Sitteth in the temple of God - That is, in the Christian church. It is by no means necessary to understand this of the temple at Jerusalem, which was standing at the time this Epistle was written, because: (1) The phrase "the temple of God" is several times used with reference to the Christian church, I Corinthians 3:16, I Corinthians 3:17; II Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; Revelation 3:12; and, (2) The temple was the proper symbol of the church, and an apostle trained amidst the Hebrew institutions would naturally speak of the church as the temple of God. The temple at Jerusalem was regarded as the peculiar dwelling-place of God on earth. When the Christian church was founded, it was spoken of as the peculiar dwelling-place of God; see the passages referred to above… No one can reasonably doubt that all that is here affirmed may be found in the claims of the Pope of Rome. ~ Albert Barnes, Commentary, 2 Thes 2Offical RCC writings proclaiming the "eminence of the Pope", i.e., to "proclaim himself to be God":

"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (The Gloss extravagances of Pope John XXII Cum. Inter, tit XIV Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

"We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God." (Pope Innocent III (1198-1216).

"I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do…wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." (Pope Nicholas, Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)

My heart's Desire
Dec 12th 2007, 05:51 AM
Some say it could be built in Shiloh, where the tent one was at one time.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 12th 2007, 02:06 PM
2 Thess 2:4- 'sitteth', it doesn't mean that the Antichrist shall actual sit on the literal throne in literal building of temple. This verse described of Satan shall persecute against Church. 'Sitteth' have different meanings.

Rev. 17:9, 15 show of good example of 'sitteth'. Will we see a literal person - "whore" actual sit on a literal throne on literal "waters"(sea or lake, or ocean)? No. This gives the picture of Babylon is rule over the world.

Same with Rev. 17:9 tells us, a woman shall sitteth on seven mountians. Will we see a literal woman as person to sit on literal throne upon literal seven mountians? No. This verse telling us, Babylon is rule over seven continents. It already happening hundreds or few thousands of years ago.

Babylon is symbol as evil religion world system. It already exist today since Early Church to now.

2 Thess. 2:4 gives us the picture of Satan shall make war over the saints - Rev. 13:7,10.

How I do know that 2 Thess. 2:4 is speak of persecutions and tribulaitons?

Please look next verse 5 carefully: "REMEMBER ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I TOLD you these things."

Do you know where a refer verse with 2 Thess. 2:5? It finds in 1 Thess. 3:4. Paul said, "For verily, WHEN WE WERE WITH YOU, WE TOLD YOU BEFORE that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and YE KNOW(refers with 2 Thess. 2:6)."

1 Thess. 3:3-4 telling us, we are appointed for tribulations, because Christ suffered tribulations, tehrefore, we should follow His example - John 16:33.

2 Thess. 2:3-5 telling us very clear, we will be persecute under Satan first before Christ comes.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

napsnsnacks
Dec 12th 2007, 04:46 PM
To everyone,

Can you find a clarify verse anywhere in the New testament saying that Jews will rebuilt a physical building of temple again in the future?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Regardless, there needs to be no specific statement in the bible to prove to anyone that "a" temple will be constructed because all you have to do is research news and articles in and about Israel's religious community and you will see that they want a temple, one group even laid a cornerstone that made international news, and the movement is still going strong.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 12th 2007, 05:05 PM
I am interesting in scriptures than media.

For past many centuries, Jews had tried to built temple, they failed again and again. Nothing new to me. We do need it. Christ is the answer. Jews have to look up at Jesus, not earthly things.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

third hero
Dec 12th 2007, 07:54 PM
What if the 'temple of God' in 2 Thess above, is referring to the endtime-apostacy where Satan infiltrates the church, and causes many to fall away from the truth? (as opposed to assuming a rebuilt building that has no purpose)

The question would then become, where does the Satan pronouces His godhood status? Remember, the evil one is revealed in those scriptures, and the "Temple of God" is where he is revealed. He steps up and proclaims himself to be God, something that can not be positively fulfilled just by saying that the revealing of the evil one is part of the end time apostacy.

Now, due to the fact that TV is so popular now, He could set up a place in a church to fulfill this, but again, according to what I believe, the point where the man of sin is revealed is the point of the Abomination that causes desolation. Therefore, it has to take place in Jerusalem.


I don't think Satan will stand in the heart of a believer...but he will infiltrate God's people, and as the apostacy and rebellion grow, effect more and more to turn away from God and follow him. Does that make any sense?

Makes perfect sense, and it is in fact, happening now. However, I call this the apostacy, and not the revealing of the Evil One.


But Polycarp doesn't give a point of view.

Eusibius quotes Irenaeus who is speaking for Polycarp in a vague and ambiguous manner in regards to Revelation.

Take away a couple of assumptions here, and you might see that there will never be a return and a rebuild to a temple made with hands....and will answer the question as to why the N.T. never discusses the rebuilding of it.

4 chapters in Exodus discuss the building of the Tabernacle.
4 chapters in I Kings discuss the building of Solomon's temple.
5 chapters in I Chronicles discuss the building of Solomon's temple.
5 chapters in Ezra discuss the building of Zerubbabel's temple.
3 chapters in Nehemiah discuss the building of Zerubbabel's temple.
8 chapters in Ezekiel discuss the building of Zerubbabel's temple.
7 chapters in Matthew discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.
5 chapters in Mark discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.
11 chapters in Luke discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.
7 chapters in John discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.
10 chapters in Acts discuss the existing remodeled Herod's temple.

That's 70 chapters in the OT and NT that talk explicitly and in detail about either building a temple, or about the existing temple made with hands.

I can not comment on that yet, and because of this, you are going to force me to read the books and statements left by the early church fathers..... :confused More reading.....:B


Does it ever make you scratch your head as to why the N.T. doesn't make any clear, any indepth, or give any volume of evidence to the notion that there will be another rebuilt temple....beyond two verses, one in 2 Thess and one in Rev 11? (which both can be explained without forcing them to say they are future rebuilt temples that no other scripture corrobberates?)

This was the question I had with Revelation 11:1-2 Why wasn't the dimensions discussed, or written down? Why sis it seem as though that portion that talked about the temple seemed to be somewhat of a side comment? Unlike all of the other scriptures in the OT concerning the Temple, which Ezekiel and the writer of 1 Kings and 1 chronicles put great detail into the description of the temple. John merely passes down a mere note concerning the temple. I asked myself that question a few times. Why?

Hre's my answer. He knew that the temple, whether it was standing at the time of his writing of this book or destroyed, had no significance in the Eyes of God any longer. He also knew that the only thing left for the temple is so that the Man of Sin can be revealed, using the Holy place in that temple, as Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Paul reiterates in 2 Thes 2. Therefore, the dimensions of the temple were irrelevant, because it was not God'd temple, and the only one who would use it would be the man of sin.


Following the last mention in Acts that is clearly contexted about Herod's temple....are there other 'temple of God' references after that?

None clearly in regards to a stone temple made with hands.

Then why hold to an eschatology that requires that expectation Doug?

You see, my interpretation of 2 Thes 2:3-4, forces me to accept that a temple must be in place to reveal the man of sin. The temple made of hands is of no other significance. God will not honor it, God will not be in it, and the only one it wil honor is the beast. You see, if what I believe is correct, then the religious, who are desperately trying to bring back everything that their forefathers had, which includes the temple, will believe that they are doing God a service, like Saul did before the event on the road to Damascus. You see, the mindset of these people are the exact same as Saul's was. They honestly believe that God wants a temple, whereas you and I agree that God does not.

He no longer needs a temple for any reason, because His temple is in us, the hearts and souls of every believer. This is why we don't even need a place to organize at, because as long as two or more of us gather together, He is in the midst of us.

However, there are prophecies that still must be fulfilled. If the religious among Israel, (for the record, I am not counting the church among them), are trying to do "God's will" by bringing forth a temple, imagine what they will feel when they find out that all they did was facilitate the Evil One? This would cause all of them to weep, mourn, and be bitter, just as it is written in Zechariah 12. This would also cause them to finally believe what we have been telling them since Penticost!

The point, their salvation. IF they follow through with the building of a temple, they will be disappointed, and sorrowful. They wil have no choice but to look upon Him, whom their forefathers have pierced, and mourn after Him, and be bitter. This is their repentence, and for once, we will see an entire nation repent of their sins all at once. that, to me, is glorious, to finally see Israel go back to the Lord. This is why I still hold to this eschatology. Not for my sake, but for Israel's.

third hero
Dec 12th 2007, 08:04 PM
I am interesting in scriptures than media.

For past many centuries, Jews had tried to built temple, they failed again and again. Nothing new to me. We do need it. Christ is the answer. Jews have to look up at Jesus, not earthly things.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I agree with you. However, I also know that the religious among Israel do not see things that way. They are a stiff-necked people, who once stuck in their ways, only change their minds when things that are so tragic happen that forces them to have a change of opinion.

Why is it important that a temple be built?

My answer is this:
According to the OT, anyone who steps foot in the Holy of Holies, and is not consecrated, dies. NO one, not Gentile, not Jew, could step foot in there without the expectation of death. The Beast, when he proclaims himself to be God, desecrates the Holy of Holies, and on top of that, shows the Pharisees there that their precious temple has no significance at all. This is the only kind of blunt tragedies that can cause the entire nation of Israel to finally see the light, where they, like Paul on the road to Damascus, finally realized that he was in the wrong.

And besides, when they tried to build a temple, either the christians or Muslims stopped them, every single time. They were not permitted to take control of anything in Jerusalem for a very long time. As you can see, times have changed, and the Israelites are iun charge of Israel once again. Yes, the secular government is blocking the pharisees from rebuilding the temple now, but that will not always be the case. Even today, there are rabbis that are in talks with the clerics on a peaceful means of rebuilding the temple, which Stefen and I am investigating right now. If they come to an agreement, a temple will be built. And like I have stated before, the only "God" to inhabit that temple will be the man of Sin. It's a sad reality that Israel faces, but unfortunately, it is a necessary one. Those who are still blind will not see until the beast causes their eyes to be wide open.

David Taylor
Dec 12th 2007, 09:43 PM
them to weep, mourn, and be bitter, just as it is written in Zechariah 12.

The point, their salvation. IF they follow through with the building of a temple, they will be disappointed, and sorrowful. They wil have no choice but to look upon Him

This is their repentence

So your saying that the disappointment they feel from a rebuilt stone temple not satisfying them, would bring them to repentence.....

yet Jesus himself preaching to them directly, and the Holy Spirit preaching through Paul and Peter indirectly, wasn't successful...but a failed rebuilt temple will show Jesus and the Holy Spirit how to successfully call unbelievers to repentence?

Sorry Doug...that's a horse-biscuit too big for me to swallow.


Did you know that Zechariah 12 speaks of a coming time when they will look upon their Messiah and his pierced hands, and mourn, and weep, and wail for him?

Did you know that this exact thing occurred as Jesus marched down the via dolerosa....spilling his blood with every step?

Naw...not that group of Jews weeping for the pierced Messiah....we must look for another group of Jews besides them.

Marjiealm
Dec 12th 2007, 10:05 PM
Wow, after reading these posts it has made me begin to wonder. But what I don't truly understand is, during the Abomination of Desolation, after the son of perdition is revealed ... the people of Judea need to flee into the mountains. Now if there is no temple for satan to claim he is God, how is there going to be great tribulation (BTW, The last part of the tribulation is the wrath of satan. That I do know) And, where will the son of perdition claim he is God? It has to be on a Holy site .. am I correct in saying this???
Wow, I didn't realise how clueless I was.

napsnsnacks
Dec 13th 2007, 01:03 AM
I am interesting in scriptures than media.

For past many centuries, Jews had tried to built temple, they failed again and again. Nothing new to me. We do need it. Christ is the answer. Jews have to look up at Jesus, not earthly things.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I think it is sad that a person would believe in the bible and in prophecy, not in and of itself though by any means, but in conjunction with knowingly and willingly shutting out everything in our world and our lives and human history that would inexorably be connected to prophecy being fulfilled that states that in the future the sacrifices and oblations will be caused to stop which in itself demonstrates that they must be started and in order for these things to be started these things have no value to those that practice it outside of possessing a temple, so, the temple in some fashion or another will be rebuilt, old style or new.

Thanks to the blood of Christ shed for the remission of sins here is no longer any need for a sacrificial alter (there can be no remission of sins without the shedding of blood) with God but according to your reasoning, prophecy is a big lie about the sacrifices and oblations being caused to cease which such prophecy itself reflects that these things were started, thus dictating the need for a sacrificial alter and denying such on the grounds that the bible doesn't say that a sacrificial alter will be built in the event that you could not find a verse for verse listing for it.

If the Word of God had to mention, apparently to your satisfaction, everything that is and was and will be connected to prophecy, even the overbearingly obvious need for a temple and sacrificial alter to exist in order for the oblations and sacrifices to be resumed and stopped again, the bible would have to literally be a hologam/virtual movie of the future because it simply could not fit between the pages of trillions of books.

For example take Israels history since prophecy ceased to be written of Israel. The places they have been and the things they have done. Thousands of years of Israel/Jewish history that was never inserted into the bible to show us that they would do certain things or suffer certain things or be in certain places.

You must also go so far as to say that the abomination of desolation that occurs in Revelations is a prophetic lie because this act of antichrist claiming to be God can only be done to these peoples religious satisfaction in the holy of holies area which in turn this area only exists in a temple and or a tabernacle and in light of the fact of what already happened to the Man who made these claim while not standing in the holy of holies which can only be found in a temple or tabernacle.

Would you go so far as to say that what Adolph Hitler did to the Jews never happened nor was possible because such an outstanding and major historical event in Jewish history was not spoken of in the bible?

According to your reasoning, YOU MUST BY DEFAULT, claim that none of this history is real or has any bearing on reality because none of it can be found in the bible.

You need to ask your self how can the oblations and sacrifices be stopped if they were never started because they would not be started without the matter of the two directly involving a rebuilt temple or a reconstruction of the original tabernacle because those who practice such things don't perceive any value in such things outside of an accompanying temple of possibly a tabernacle.

.

third hero
Dec 13th 2007, 10:31 AM
So your saying that the disappointment they feel from a rebuilt stone temple not satisfying them, would bring them to repentence.....

yet Jesus himself preaching to them directly, and the Holy Spirit preaching through Paul and Peter indirectly, wasn't successful...but a failed rebuilt temple will show Jesus and the Holy Spirit how to successfully call unbelievers to repentence?

Sorry Doug...that's a horse-biscuit too big for me to swallow.


Did you know that Zechariah 12 speaks of a coming time when they will look upon their Messiah and his pierced hands, and mourn, and weep, and wail for him?

Did you know that this exact thing occurred as Jesus marched down the via dolerosa....spilling his blood with every step?

Naw...not that group of Jews weeping for the pierced Messiah....we must look for another group of Jews besides them.

Have you ever heard the term, "some people gotta learn the Hard way"?

The Jews were not weeping for him omn the way to golgotha. They mocked Him, and he was not pierced until after He had died on the cross.

MOurning and weeping is caused by the revelation that they were wrong the entire time, and by building a temple, and the Lord having given them, secular Israel, over to Satan, those who witness the Abomination that Causes Desolation will mourn and weep, realizing that they were being used by the enemy to propagate his king.

To suggest that the road to Golgotha is the fulfillment of Zechariah 12 is a horsepill that I find very difficult to swallow....

I bet that would taste a little better than a horse biscuit, eh there David? :):rolleyes::pp:o:rofl::rofl::rofl:

ShirleyFord
Dec 13th 2007, 11:02 AM
The Jews were not weeping for him omn the way to golgotha.

To suggest that the road to Golgotha is the fulfillment of Zechariah 12 is a horsepill that I find very difficult to swallow....



Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

third hero
Dec 13th 2007, 04:49 PM
Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zehcariah 12:10-14

Shirley, the Daughters of Zion do not qualify as every family that remain of Israel. According to Zechariah, every family that remain in Jerusalem would mourn and weep and be bitter. that included the man, and the wife, and not just the women. So, sorry, I can not accept the case that you are bringing up here.

Besides, Jesus wasn't pierced then, when he was walking up to Golgotha. Simon wasn't mourning over Him, because He wasn't dead yet. However, since the death of the Lord, we have yet to find anything in human history record concerning Jerusalem that every family that remained would mourn separately, the family apart, and their wives apart. This has not happened yet.

ShirleyFord
Dec 14th 2007, 12:43 AM
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Let's break this verse down....

Prophecy 1

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications..."



Fulfilled in the 1st century

I believe this prophecy began to be fulfilled on the house of David, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, on the day of Penticost in Acts 2 and continued on just those Jews dwelling in Jerusalem until Acts 8 when the gospel began reaching out to those living outside of the city of Jerusalem to other parts of the nation of Israel and beyond to other nations, while the Spirit was still be poured out on the Jews.



Prophecy 2

"...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...."



John said that it was fulfilled at the Crucifixion in the 1st century

Jn 19:34, 37 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.




Prophecy 3

"...and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."



Fulfilled just before the Crucifixion of Christ in the 1st century


Luke 23:26-28 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

David Taylor
Dec 14th 2007, 02:50 AM
Hard to wrestle with the scriptures when you lay them out that clearly Shirley....thanks for some very inspiring scriptures....

And I think the great Acts chapter 2 passage Peter preached to "all the house of Israel, and their children" about receiving the Spirit of grace and supplication; none other than the Holy Spirit; of which 3,000 members of the House of David immediately submitted to, and we read multitudes and great multitudes more later, from the same House of David submitted to; --was one huge emphatic exclaimation point on Zechariah 12.

I just wonder how many from the multitudes of the house of David who became indwelt with the Holy Spirit that very day, said to themselves and their families, "today at Juersalem fulfilled the scriptures spoken of by Zechariah the prophet of old".

My heart's Desire
Dec 14th 2007, 05:45 AM
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Let's break this verse down....

Prophecy 1

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications..."



Fulfilled in the 1st century

I believe this prophecy began to be fulfilled on the house of David, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, on the day of Penticost in Acts 2 and continued on just those Jews dwelling in Jerusalem until Acts 8 when the gospel began reaching out to those living outside of the city of Jerusalem to other parts of the nation of Israel and beyond to other nations, while the Spirit was still be poured out on the Jews.



Prophecy 2

"...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...."



John said that it was fulfilled at the Crucifixion in the 1st century

Jn 19:34, 37 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.




Prophecy 3

"...and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."



Fulfilled just before the Crucifixion of Christ in the 1st century


Luke 23:26-28 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


Shirley, your insight is amazing but call to your remembrance that there is such a thing as double fulfilment. Before the verse of 12:10 there are the verses of 6-9
In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem.
7. The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah;
8 In that day, the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David and the house of David will be like God, like an angel of the Lord before them.
9. And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. I will pour out....

So did the Lord on that same day as verse 10 go to destroy all the nations that came against Jerusalem?

Also, about Pentecost, in Chapter 2 of Acts, when it actually occurred, another verse was used by the Apostle Peter to explain to them what was occurring and that was Joel 2:28-32. But the prophecy went on to say that on that day 19: And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, Blood, and Fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come...
So, was Peter wrong in quoting the verse or were there wonders in the sky , signs on the earth and blood, fire and vapor of smoke.
Was the sun turned into darkness and the moon turned into blood, and did the Day of the Lord come at that time?
It's very possible that since part of it did happen (the Spirit being poured out) perhaps Peter quoted all of it because he really thought the Day of the Lord would occur soon after.
So, it is possible that in all the cases brought about above that not all of any of them may have been totally fulfilled, but partially as in some you are correct.
Jesus used verses likewise as in Luke 4:18-19 and then verse 21. He quoted from the book of Isaiah 61. He stopped reading after the first part of verse 19 which said,
To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord." but in Isaiah 61:2 the entire verse says:
To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord AND THE DAY OF VENGENANCE OF OUR GOD' TO COMFORT ALL WHO MOURN.
In Luke 4:21 Jesus closed the book and said to them that Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing"
He meant that the part that He was proclaiming the favorable year of the Lord was here but He stopped by not reading the last part of the actual verse because the Day of the vengenance of God had not come yet.

brakelite
Dec 14th 2007, 10:01 PM
I c an never believe that, and here is why. I can never believe that the Church, which is suppose to be the bride of Christ, would ever allow a man who fits the bill as the "man of sin" to rule over them. Also, the man of sin can not stand in the heart of a believer, and proclaim himself to be God.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. Please bear with me a second. like I have wrote before, the true worshippers of God, which is the Church, otherwise known as us, the believers, do not need anyplace in order to worship God. Personally, I worship Him in my car quite a lot! So, I agree with you that God no longer needs a temple. In truth, God didn't need one back then. The Temple was a physical representation of God's rulership over Israel. In other words, it was a symbol.

Today, the 'religious" Israelites are patterning their relligion after the Pharisees of ancient times. they have resurrected the Sanhedrin, restarted the sacrificing again this past passover, and are currently in talks with the Muslim Clerics who control the Temple mount to build a temple in the place where archeologists now say the Temple once stood, south of the Dome of the Rock. (as a side note, I believe that they will broker a deal, and that wil be part of the "peace accord" that will send Iran into Israel, and start World War III). If a temple is built along side the Dome of the Rock, Revelation 11:1-2 becomes fulfilled, with the temple standing and the outer court given over to the Gentiles. The "religious" among the Israelites want a temple, whether God snactions it or not.

Both you and I know, as well as everyone else in here, that God will not sanction a temple, because He no longer requires one forthe worshippers. He has gotten what He wanted, a means for all flesh to worship Him, through the redemptive Blood of Lord Jesus. However, like I have stated in a previous post, the "religious" will stop at nothing to seee a temple rebuilt, even if the only purpose for it is to house the Beast, who will use it to make His proclamation of Godhood.

A cursory perusal of Rev 13 will reveal that the entire end-time scenario is based on deception. The antichrist is not going to have a sign round his neck proclaiming 'I am the antichrist!'
Jesus warned repeatedly about false prophets, false christs, in other words, deception.
David Taylor provided proof that the church is the temple of the New Testament.They dont have a temple, they are one. Why? Because the Holy Spirit resides in us.Therefore it stands to reason that any and all prophecy in the OT concerning the NT temple, refers exclusively to the church.
So when we read that the antichrist (a NT entity) is going to enter the temple and proclaim himself God, then we must assume the scriptures are warning us that the antichrist will be in the church and proclaiming himself as God.
This agrees with all the warnings of Jesus re false prophets and false Christs.
Coupled with that is the NT warning of Paul in 2 Thess.2:3,4.

Very interesting that almost the entire Christian community is looking avidly in the direction of Israel for a literal temple and the appearing of antichrist.
Deception!!!!!Almost everyone looking in the wrong direction.
And when the false prophet establishes the mark of the beast, could it be that almost the entire church is so decieved that they not only fail to recognise the antichrist for who he truly is, but even accept his mark?

Note well that the mark is all about worship. The end-time decption is all about worship. And no-one is going to be deceived by a literal temple and the reintroduction of sacrificial offerings. Nor by anyone within that temple proclaiming himself the Messiah. Satan knows that. So look elsewhere folks, and dont be sucked in by red herrings and fictional books called 'left behind'
or 'late great planet earth'.

Study the scriptures and look around you. He may be closer than you think.

Brakelite.

napsnsnacks
Dec 15th 2007, 02:04 PM
I should insert somewhere along here that I believe that there are far more Jewish Christians than we could ever imagine or count because I think they live it and believe it in secret, in many cases for their own survival.

ShirleyFord
Dec 15th 2007, 04:03 PM
Shirley, your insight is amazing but call to your remembrance that there is such a thing as double fulfilment. Before the verse of 12:10 there are the verses of 6-9
In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem.
7. The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah;
8 In that day, the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David and the house of David will be like God, like an angel of the Lord before them.
9. And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. I will pour out....

So did the Lord on that same day as verse 10 go to destroy all the nations that came against Jerusalem?

Also, about Pentecost, in Chapter 2 of Acts, when it actually occurred, another verse was used by the Apostle Peter to explain to them what was occurring and that was Joel 2:28-32. But the prophecy went on to say that on that day 19: And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, Blood, and Fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come...
So, was Peter wrong in quoting the verse or were there wonders in the sky , signs on the earth and blood, fire and vapor of smoke.
Was the sun turned into darkness and the moon turned into blood, and did the Day of the Lord come at that time?
It's very possible that since part of it did happen (the Spirit being poured out) perhaps Peter quoted all of it because he really thought the Day of the Lord would occur soon after.
So, it is possible that in all the cases brought about above that not all of any of them may have been totally fulfilled, but partially as in some you are correct.
Jesus used verses likewise as in Luke 4:18-19 and then verse 21. He quoted from the book of Isaiah 61. He stopped reading after the first part of verse 19 which said,
To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord." but in Isaiah 61:2 the entire verse says:
To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord AND THE DAY OF VENGENANCE OF OUR GOD' TO COMFORT ALL WHO MOURN.
In Luke 4:21 Jesus closed the book and said to them that Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing"
He meant that the part that He was proclaiming the favorable year of the Lord was here but He stopped by not reading the last part of the actual verse because the Day of the vengenance of God had not come yet.

So do you agree with the three prophecies in Zechariah 12:10 that I shared in my last post that were fulfilled in the 1st century?

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Let's break this verse down....

Prophecy 1

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications..."



Fulfilled in the 1st century

I believe this prophecy began to be fulfilled on the house of David, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, on the day of Penticost in Acts 2 and continued on just those Jews dwelling in Jerusalem until Acts 8 when the gospel began reaching out to those living outside of the city of Jerusalem to other parts of the nation of Israel and beyond to other nations, while the Spirit was still be poured out on the Jews.



Prophecy 2

"...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...."



John said that it was fulfilled at the Crucifixion in the 1st century

Jn 19:34, 37 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.




Prophecy 3

"...and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."



Fulfilled just before the Crucifixion of Christ in the 1st century


Luke 23:26-28 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

My heart's Desire
Dec 16th 2007, 04:24 AM
So do you agree with the three prophecies in Zechariah 12:10 that I shared in my last post that were fulfilled in the 1st century?

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Let's break this verse down....

Prophecy 1

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications..."



Fulfilled in the 1st century

I believe this prophecy began to be fulfilled on the house of David, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, on the day of Penticost in Acts 2 and continued on just those Jews dwelling in Jerusalem until Acts 8 when the gospel began reaching out to those living outside of the city of Jerusalem to other parts of the nation of Israel and beyond to other nations, while the Spirit was still be poured out on the Jews.



Prophecy 2

"...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...."



John said that it was fulfilled at the Crucifixion in the 1st century

Jn 19:34, 37 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.




Prophecy 3

"...and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."



Fulfilled just before the Crucifixion of Christ in the 1st century


Luke 23:26-28 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
I'm saying I see your connection, but I don't think they were all fulfilled in the 1st century. I think the verses have double fulfillment. At Pentecost there was not wonders in the sky, and toward the Day of the Lord which is future they will see the One whom they pierced. I believe Revelation is future. Peter quoted the Joel passage and indeed they were filled with the Holy Spirit but did the signs in the sky accompany it? I don't think so.
Zech.12 has to some way be connected with the setting up of the millenial kingdom.

Truely at His crucifixion, the women wailed but the way I understand it wailing etc was almost a traditional thing that was just done. It was done at death mostly.
If they were mostly calling for His death then why would God pour out the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they then mourn over Him as someone weeps over a firstborn? If that were the case, would Israel then not have been more open to Jesus as being their Messiah?
Not only that but Revelation 1:7 has the same verse almost and it says that when He comes with the clouds every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him so the Lord did not come with the clouds on the day He was crucified and they were seeing Him and mourning for Him.

pax Domini
Dec 17th 2007, 12:44 AM
Just a quick "heads-up" for any who might be interested-On a site called "roadmapforthesoul.com", the tabernacle of David is shown as a "map" which basically depicts two things- On one level, it shows the (physical) nation of Israel's journey (and relatively recent return) to the (physical) "promised land".On another level, it illustrates the (spiritual) journey of all believers (i.e. "spiritual Israel") from the world of sin here on earth, to the (spiritual) "promised land" of relationship with God.It's pretty amazing to see how God orchestrated the writings of many different men over some 1600 years or so and brought them together (in the form of our bible) in such a way that the writings of those men (and the very sequence of their compiled writings) illustrate the tabernacle's meaning so precisely. One thing is for sure, it certainly poses quite a problem for the many other "christian" groups (and even some like Islam!) who claim a kinship with the bible. Once one sees the tabernacle interpreted as the bible's entire structure shows it's meant to be, "alternative interpretations and beliefs" become rather difficult to support. Interesting stuff.

mizzdy
Dec 17th 2007, 07:58 PM
New here so hope I post this right! I am of the pov that there will be an end time temple built. The Jews believe they must build the temple as a means to an end, that the last physical temple will bring the heavenly one brought down to earth from God. It seems that it will take the antichrist in the rebuilt temple for the Jews to see that Christ indeed is their Messiah, the very one that they have rejected. Really one cannot blame the Jews for this likemindedness since it does say that their hearts and minds have been hardened for their sakes. God is the one that leads each to Himself and perhaps this is the reason for the growing movement of the Messianic Jews. I will even go out on a limb here and say I am of the opinion that there are two separate paths for the Jews and christians but having the same path when Christ comes again. I agree for christians a temple is not needed today for any kind of worship. Yet in the thousand year reign of Christ it does say all nations will go to the temple in Jerusalem and that Christ will rule with a rod of iron, and all will go to the feast of tabernacles. So to me that would mean the rebuilding of the temple is important. Just my two cents.

David Taylor
Dec 17th 2007, 08:35 PM
It seems that it will take the antichrist in the rebuilt temple for the Jews to see that Christ indeed is their Messiah, the very one that they have rejected.

So you think Christ hanging on the cross of Calvary wasn't a sufficient enough event for all humankind to see that Jesus was indeed their Messiah?

Do you really think the Jews need a better eye-opener than Calvary's testimony, even though it was sufficient to draw thousands and thousands and great multitudes of Jews in the past and onward to today to belief?

third hero
Dec 17th 2007, 09:01 PM
A cursory perusal of Rev 13 will reveal that the entire end-time scenario is based on deception. The antichrist is not going to have a sign round his neck proclaiming 'I am the antichrist!'
Jesus warned repeatedly about false prophets, false christs, in other words, deception.
David Taylor provided proof that the church is the temple of the New Testament.They dont have a temple, they are one. Why? Because the Holy Spirit resides in us.Therefore it stands to reason that any and all prophecy in the OT concerning the NT temple, refers exclusively to the church.
So when we read that the antichrist (a NT entity) is going to enter the temple and proclaim himself God, then we must assume the scriptures are warning us that the antichrist will be in the church and proclaiming himself as God.
This agrees with all the warnings of Jesus re false prophets and false Christs.
Coupled with that is the NT warning of Paul in 2 Thess.2:3,4.

Very interesting that almost the entire Christian community is looking avidly in the direction of Israel for a literal temple and the appearing of antichrist.
Deception!!!!!Almost everyone looking in the wrong direction.
And when the false prophet establishes the mark of the beast, could it be that almost the entire church is so decieved that they not only fail to recognise the antichrist for who he truly is, but even accept his mark?

Note well that the mark is all about worship. The end-time decption is all about worship. And no-one is going to be deceived by a literal temple and the reintroduction of sacrificial offerings. Nor by anyone within that temple proclaiming himself the Messiah. Satan knows that. So look elsewhere folks, and dont be sucked in by red herrings and fictional books called 'left behind'
or 'late great planet earth'.

Study the scriptures and look around you. He may be closer than you think.

Brakelite.

First of all, your post was very well written, and I applaud the conclusions which you have come to.

Here is my conclusion. I have to agree with the prospect that the "AntiChrist" will infiltrate the church, as there is overwhelming evidence that the forces of the antichrists have already infiltrated, and are causing some churches to lead the charge in the apostacy, which is not limited to the presbetyrians who have committed a dangerous and obviously blasphemous act of ordaining a practicing homosexual.

Also, according to my studies, I would have to agree that someone who is suppose to be a high-ranking Elder will betray the entire church, and atthe same time, either side with the Beast or like I have been saying all along, broker a deal with him and becomes his mouthpiece.

Obviously, by saying this, I have to disagree with you on the thought that us looking at Israel for the cornerstone of the Great Tribulation is deception. It is the belief of many, and Revelation 11:1-17 gives them that evidence, as it does me, that the temple being rebuilt is possibly the last key event that we need to see in order to literally count down the days until our expected Return of the Lord, and also to count down the days until the event that precedes th Return of the Lord, the Abomination that causes Desolation.

Seriously, Daniel 9:27 states that becasue of the overwhelming abominations, he, the ruler of the people who is to come, who destroyed both the temple and the city, would cause the city to be desolate, until the consummation. If a temple is built, which BOTH you Amils and us premils AGREE that the temple is a sacrilege and an abomination to God, then another abomination would be present in Jerusalem. Remember, IN Revelation 11, Jerusalem is called "Spiritual Sodom and Egypt". Sodom did their own thing, and greatly angered God. Egypt had, and still has, an overwhelming amount of idols and abominations, I guess that would be saying the same thing, idols and abominations, standing in their cities. Jerusalem has the Dome of the Rock, an abomination. If another abomination is built, which is the 3rd temple, then there would be more reasons why God would have that place desolated.

This is why so many are looking at Israel and proclaim that another temple is going to be built, not because it is for God, but because the ISraelites will think that, like Saul did before the Road to Damascus event, they were doing God a favor. We, like you, recognize this as an abomination. So, don't knock us who understand some aspects of scripture that you overlook, because we have our points that should be recognized as well, even if you do not agree with them.

Merton
Dec 17th 2007, 10:34 PM
First of all, your post was very well written, and I applaud the conclusions which you have come to.

Here is my conclusion. I have to agree with the prospect that the "AntiChrist" will infiltrate the church, as there is overwhelming evidence that the forces of the antichrists have already infiltrated, and are causing some churches to lead the charge in the apostacy, which is not limited to the presbetyrians who have committed a dangerous and obviously blasphemous act of ordaining a practicing homosexual.

Also, according to my studies, I would have to agree that someone who is suppose to be a high-ranking Elder will betray the entire church, and atthe same time, either side with the Beast or like I have been saying all along, broker a deal with him and becomes his mouthpiece.

Obviously, by saying this, I have to disagree with you on the thought that us looking at Israel for the cornerstone of the Great Tribulation is deception. It is the belief of many, and Revelation 11:1-17 gives them that evidence, as it does me, that the temple being rebuilt is possibly the last key event that we need to see in order to literally count down the days until our expected Return of the Lord, and also to count down the days until the event that precedes th Return of the Lord, the Abomination that causes Desolation.

Seriously, Daniel 9:27 states that becasue of the overwhelming abominations, he, the ruler of the people who is to come, who destroyed both the temple and the city, would cause the city to be desolate, until the consummation. If a temple is built, which BOTH you Amils and us premils AGREE that the temple is a sacrilege and an abomination to God, then another abomination would be present in Jerusalem. Remember, IN Revelation 11, Jerusalem is called "Spiritual Sodom and Egypt". Sodom did their own thing, and greatly angered God. Egypt had, and still has, an overwhelming amount of idols and abominations, I guess that would be saying the same thing, idols and abominations, standing in their cities. Jerusalem has the Dome of the Rock, an abomination. If another abomination is built, which is the 3rd temple, then there would be more reasons why God would have that place desolated.

This is why so many are looking at Israel and proclaim that another temple is going to be built, not because it is for God, but because the ISraelites will think that, like Saul did before the Road to Damascus event, they were doing God a favor. We, like you, recognize this as an abomination. So, don't knock us who understand some aspects of scripture that you overlook, because we have our points that should be recognized as well, even if you do not agree with them.


Doug,

The spirit of anti-christ rules through unsanctified believers who turn from the Holy commandment delivered to them. That is through those who like to wage war for God with natural force, who love money and self. 2 Peter ch 2.


The interpreting of the scriptures as referring to natural Israel, natural temple, natural everything is a symptom of blindness to the real truth.
(people like Hagee)

Any abomination of a temple in the end days can only refer to the churches and it is not a matter of opinion but of what God tells His people.

Look at the 7th church letter and previous ones for example of how the churches (assemblies) can become separated from God.

Look how the little horn corrupts the assemblies of God and raises himself in their sight to be worshipped, because it is he who fits the description of their ideals and appears to give them what they desire, yes world conquest for their corrupted form of the gospel, which includes rule in Jerusalem.

Do we realise that homosexuality exists because of the worship of oneself and of other men.

Sorry Doug, but the whole thing will backfire on the churches like Hitler killed his storm troopers in the night of the long knives.

Merton.

mizzdy
Dec 17th 2007, 11:49 PM
So you think Christ hanging on the cross of Calvary wasn't a sufficient enough event for all humankind to see that Jesus was indeed their Messiah?

Do you really think the Jews need a better eye-opener than Calvary's testimony, even though it was sufficient to draw thousands and thousands and great multitudes of Jews in the past and onward to today to belief?

I certainly do think that Christ hanging on the cross was/is enough for anyone my goodness I hope that no one thinks I was intending anything else. Why do you think it is then that the Jews do not accept Christ as the Messiah? And yes I agree with you that mulitudes accepted Christ as the Messiah yet there were many who did not. Christ said that they/Israel should have known the day of their visitation but yet He knew from the beginning that all of this would happen. So He must have a plan for it all wouldn't you think? Or is it that they are just hung out to dry if they do not accept Christ as the Messiah before His return? Since I believe what Paul said in Romans, 'God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear' and also 'blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fulness of the gentiles be come in'. This does not mean that any Jews cannot come into the fullness of the gospel and accept Christ as their Savior since it seems there are many thousands doing that today. As for your question about Jews needing more of an eye opener well yes I think that is going to be the case for many. I have talked with so many that say they could never accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah for many reasons. Reading the OT is enough to make anyone realize that the Israelites or any human for that matter, have always had a time completely obeying or trusting God. We all struggle everyday in our walk, we are all only human.

David Taylor
Dec 18th 2007, 02:22 AM
I certainly do think that Christ hanging on the cross was/is enough for anyone my goodness I hope that no one thinks I was intending anything else. Why do you think it is then that the Jews do not accept Christ as the Messiah?
[/qoute]

The same reason few Gentiles accept Jesus as Messiah, and most don't....because mens hearts are wicked and rebellious, and to quote Jesus Himself, "narrow is the way, and straight is the gate that leads to eternal life, and few find it".

It's not that the Jews will not accept Jesus any less differently than the Italians or the Argentines or the Eskimos.

Most humans, regardless of ancestry, race, or pedigree, prefer their own desires over the Lord God.



[quote=mizzdy;1474454]
And yes I agree with you that mulitudes accepted Christ as the Messiah yet there were many who did not. Christ said that they/Israel should have known the day of their visitation but yet He knew from the beginning that all of this would happen. So He must have a plan for it all wouldn't you think?

Calvary was the plan for it.

Peter told "all the House of Israel" and "all their children" that all they had to do was to repent, their sins would be taken away, and they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Since Peter didn't make this offer to 'some of Israel' but rather "all the house of Israel and their children", then there should be no doubt that Calvary is the plan for all human-beings.





Or is it that they are just hung out to dry if they do not accept Christ as the Messiah before His return?

Paul quoted Isaiah, and very adamantly stated (as did Jesus to Zaccaeus), that "Today is the accepted Time, Today is the day of salvation".

Noone is to put off until tomorrow as the unwise virgins did, but rather, we are admonished to be ready, be watchful, and be faithful to the Lord daily.

Noone is hung out to dry, because Jesus Himself has already been hung out to dry...in his own dried and spatter blood; for all of us.





Since I believe what Paul said in Romans, 'God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear' and also 'blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fulness of the gentiles be come in'.

But that verse in now way teaches postponement of salvation for anyone; neither the Jews who are apart of the natural branch nor the Gentiles who are apart of the wild branches.

The scales fall off, and the blind eyes open, when repentence and a contrite heart reaches out to the Saviour. No different in 33 A.D. No different in 500 A.D. No different in 2007 A.D.

When the fulness of the Gentiles is completed, then all the branches (both natural and wild) will be completed and their graffing in finished.

God isn't withholding or postponing salvation for anyone.




This does not mean that any Jews cannot come into the fullness of the gospel and accept Christ as their Savior since it seems there are many thousands doing that today.

Exactly. It only means that the harvest will continue until it is completed; then the Lord will return.





As for your question about Jews needing more of an eye opener well yes I think that is going to be the case for many. I have talked with so many that say they could never accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah for many reasons.

If Calvary isn't enough of a witness and a testimony to accept Jesus; then no other event will be more meritous....if that were so, then Calvary wasn't necessary in the first place.






Reading the OT is enough to make anyone realize that the Israelites or any human for that matter, have always had a time completely obeying or trusting God. We all struggle everyday in our walk, we are all only human.

And there is no difference between each human...whether Jew or Gentile.

Salvation is through the cross; and it is available daily; to whosoever will partake of it!

napsnsnacks
Dec 18th 2007, 04:50 AM
New here so hope I post this right! I am of the pov that there will be an end time temple built. The Jews believe they must build the temple as a means to an end, that the last physical temple will bring the heavenly one brought down to earth from God. It seems that it will take the antichrist in the rebuilt temple for the Jews to see that Christ indeed is their Messiah, the very one that they have rejected. Really one cannot blame the Jews for this likemindedness since it does say that their hearts and minds have been hardened for their sakes. God is the one that leads each to Himself and perhaps this is the reason for the growing movement of the Messianic Jews. I will even go out on a limb here and say I am of the opinion that there are two separate paths for the Jews and christians but having the same path when Christ comes again. I agree for christians a temple is not needed today for any kind of worship. Yet in the thousand year reign of Christ it does say all nations will go to the temple in Jerusalem and that Christ will rule with a rod of iron, and all will go to the feast of tabernacles. So to me that would mean the rebuilding of the temple is important. Just my two cents.

Hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm.

brakelite
Dec 22nd 2007, 08:51 PM
Quote: It's not that the Jews will not accept Jesus any less differently than the Italians or the Argentines or the Eskimos.

Paul stated that the cross was a stumbling block to the Jews. I would suggest that this is more so for them because of Deut 21:23. The Jew may well ask, how can Jesus be the Christ and at the same time be accursed of God?
We may know the answer, but to the Jew, indeed a stumbling block.

Regards
Brakelite

brakelite
Dec 22nd 2007, 09:19 PM
Hi TH.
Thanks for the compliment. Gotta disagree with you on one point though.
The entire 3rd temople pre-trib scenario is based on the most flimsy and erroneous misapplication of scripture. The entire left-behind series is based on the understanding that Dan 9:27 refers to the antichrist. Yet the whole of the prophecy is not about the antichrist, but the true Christ. And verse 27 is no exception. Jesus, by His death caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The covenant He confirmed for a week was the preaching of the gospel to the Jewish nation. ( From His baptism to the stoning of Stephenwas 7 years- one prohetic week. Afetr Stephen was stoned the gospel went to the gentiles. Until that time Jesus instructed the disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.) In the midst of the week, He died. It was Jesus Himself who warned that 'your house is left unto you desolate'. Yet even then in HIs mercy He gave them a further 3 1/2 years to repent. Many did. But the consummation of the prophecy came as predicted and 'not one stone was left upon another' in 70ad.

Thus Dan 9:27 found it's literal fulfilment in Jesus Himself, as a completion of the 70 weeks determined upon the Jewish nation.
Oh dear. I guess that takes care of the 7 year tribulation period too, doesn't it?

Is the deception I spoke of so deeply penetrated that the entire church enters the tribulation period unprepared? Wouldn't the devil love that? Perhaps that has been his intention all along?

The antichrist ruling the church and the church not aware of who he is.
The church looking for a literal temple as the beginning of a non-existent 7 year tribulation.

"Behold, I come as a thief..."

The thief's coming is always as a surprise...

It's not the quietness of the thief the scriptures are alluding to, it's the surprise. (how can a shout of an archangel and the blast of a trumpet be quiet?)

Deception, deception. "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world..." Rev 12:9

Regards
Brakelite.

Mograce2U
Dec 23rd 2007, 03:20 AM
(Rev 18:4-8 KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. {5} For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. {6} Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. {7} How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. {8} Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

(Isa 47:7-11 KJV) And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it. {8} Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: {9} But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. {10} For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. {11} Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

(Isa 40:2-5 KJV) Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. {3} The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {4} Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: {5} And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

(Isa 61:6-8 KJV) But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. {7} For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. {8} For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Israel has gotten everything that God had promised to give her... be it salvation or judgment. There is nothing left she can do to earn either anymore since the curse of the law has been lifted. She therefore takes her place amongst the nations who know not God. Whether she builds another temple for herself or not will not cause her any more harm than that she continues to reject her Lord. What more is God supposed to do for her than He has already done in sending His Son to die for her? They cannot tempt the Lord to judge them again for what He has already judged them for.

(Mat 4:5-7 KJV) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, {6} And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. {7} Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

(Psa 91:11-15 KJV) For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. {13} Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. {14} Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. {15} He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

The enemy is the devil, not Israel - they are merely a pawn of his and will suffer the same as the rest of the children of disobedience. Their plans to rebuild a temple is no more an abomination in the sight of God because He no longer dwells in temples made with hands. Therefore they cannot defile what is not holy in the first place. The structure on the Dome of the Rock is sufficient enough if judgment were to come upon them for an "unholy" temple. But the ground in Jerusalem is not holy either - you cannot defile what is already profane. God has already made His provision for His chosen people, and they are the ones that serve His Son. These are the ones He sanctifies. And no one can take them out of His hand.

The devil already succeeded in defiling the earthly temple of God; but since his defeat at the cross, the spiritual temple of Christ is now safely in the heavenlies where he has no access to it. The temple of the body of Christ cannot be defiled in the earth because the Holy Spirit rules in it. So whether or not the devil is going to build an earthly structure to proclaim himself "God" or not, really doesn't matter, since it only concerns what unbelievers do. And the Mosque of Omar is just as good as any for that.

It is a non-event.

Codger
Dec 23rd 2007, 03:11 PM
What is commonly referred to today as the Temple Mount is in reality the Fortress Antonia. Although I don't believe that any more Temples will be built in Jerusalem they could start building one tomorrow if they realized that the Temple was actually located South of the Fortress Antonia.

Larry