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View Full Version : One Or Two Gospels In The New Testament?



Terral
Dec 10th 2007, 12:59 PM
Greetings to All:

This thread is dedicated to comparing the differences between the ‘Gospel of the Kingdom’ and our ‘Word of the Cross’ gospel message of today. My hypothesis is that God gathers members to the Prophetic Kingdom ‘Bride’ (John 3:29 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A29) = Peter, John, James, Eunuch, Cornelius, Etc.) through the first gospel described below and members to the Mystery ‘Body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+4%3A12) = that’s us = Paul, Barnabas, Titus, Timothy, Etc.) through Paul’s “my gospel” #2. Gospel #1 is the Gospel of Water, while Gospel #2 below is the Gospel of Blood.

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This is NOT our gospel for today. Nobody has been saved by the Gospel of the Kingdom message for almost 2000 years. Elijah will begin preaching this Gospel of the Kingdom, when he returns to restore ‘all things’ (Matthew 17:10-11 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+17%3A10-11)) as the “prophet” of Acts 3:19-26 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+3%3A19-26), when the kingdom is restored to Israel (Acts 1:6-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201:6-7;&version=9;)) during the ‘times and epoch’ period of the “Day of the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 5:1+2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:1-2;&version=9;)).
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I. Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:23 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+4%3A23) , Matthew 9:35 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+9%3A35), Matthew 24:14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+24%3A14), Acts 8:12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+8%3A12)). Gospel to the Circumcised. Galatians 2:7 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Galatians+2%3A7).

1. The good news that the ‘kingdom of heaven’ is ‘at hand’ (Matthew 3:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+3%3A2), Matthew 4:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+4%3A17), Matthew 10:7 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+10%3A7)). i.e., ‘preaching the kingdom.’ Acts 20:25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+20%3A25).
2. According to Prophecy; seen by the OT Prophets. Isaiah 40:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isaiah+40%3A3), Malachi 3:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Malachi+3%3A1).
3. Obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments. Matthew 19:16-17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+19%3A16-17).
4. Water baptism (during confession) for the ‘forgiveness of sins.’ Mark 1:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+1%3A4), Acts 2:38 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+2%3A38). (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+19%3A3); name of the Father; John 1:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+1%3A6), John 1:33 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+1%3A33), Matthew 28:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+28%3A19).)
5. Baptism in the ‘name of the Lord Jesus’ (Acts 8:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+8%3A16), Acts 19:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+19%3A5)), ‘name of the Son’ (Matthew 28:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+28%3A19)) becoming a member of the Prophetic Kingdom "Bride" (John 3:29 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A29)).
6. Receive the Spirit through the baptism in the ‘name of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+28%3A19)) through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+8%3A17), Acts 19:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+19%3A6)).
7. Justified by ‘works and not by faith alone.’ James 2:20-24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=James+2%3A20-24).
8. Kingdom disciples are under Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:18 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+5%3A18), James 2:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=James+2%3A10)).

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Below is our gospel for today that many believe is the ‘only’ gospel of the New Testament with inclusions from Gospel #1. This gospel message was revealed to Paul (Galatians 1:11-12 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Galatians+1%3A11-12)) AFTER his conversion in Acts 9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+9) and is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Romans 16:25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+16%3A25)).
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II. Paul’s “my gospel” (Romans 2:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+2%3A16), Romans 16:25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+16%3A25), etc.). Gospel to the Uncircumcised. Galatians 2:7 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Galatians+2%3A7).

1. The gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+20%3A24).
2. According to the revelation of the Mystery; NOT seen by the OT prophets. Romans 16:25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+16%3A25).
3. Saved by God’s grace through faith APART from works. Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+2%3A8-9).
4. Sins forgiven through the redemption IN Christ (Romans 3:24 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+3%3A24)) and His shed blood (Ephesians 1:7 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+1%3A7)).
5. Our ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+4%3A5)) is done by the ‘one Spirit’ (Ephesians 4:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+4%3A4)) into the ‘one body’ (1 Corinthians 12:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+12%3A13)), which is into “Christ’s body.” 1 Corinthians 12:27 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+12%3A27).
6. We receive the Spirit when hearing (Romans 10:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+10%3A17)*) and believing (Ephesians 1:13-14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+1%3A13-14)) Paul’s Gospel by ‘hearing with faith*.’ Galatians 3:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Galatians+3%3A2).
7. We are justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+4%3A4-6).
8. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+6%3A14).
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Do you see just one gospel in the New Testament or these two totally separate gospel messages for gathering the Kingdom Bride (#1) and Mystery Body (#2)? Good Luck in the debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

jeffreys
Dec 10th 2007, 01:14 PM
Were this hypothesis true, don't you think God would have made it a little more obvious? :hmm:

David Taylor
Dec 10th 2007, 01:37 PM
There is one gospel, the Good New gospel of Jesus Christ.


Paul taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, and taught to avoid anyone who taught a different gospel than the Gospel of Christ he taught.

Galatians 1:6 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

St_Michael
Dec 10th 2007, 01:44 PM
This is very dangerous ground. Beware the minefield.

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2007, 02:03 PM
Let me put some Scripture to this that nails this doctrine as a bad doctrine.

Acts 26:19 "Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

Paul made no distinction in his message. It was the same to the Jew as it was the Gentile.

This Pauline Only doctrine is dangerous stuff because they negate the very thing that Paul implored Timothy to do.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


What the Pauline Only folks would have you believe is that only Paul's writings are profitable for correction, reproof, doctrine and training in righteousness. It is gross error. It discounts not only all Scripture but the very teaching of Christ. No where do you see folks called Paulians. They are called Christians. Paul says follow me as I FOLLOW CHRIST. Paul makes it clear in Scripture that we are to follow the teaching of Christ. He goes to great pains to put the emphasis on Christ. The Berean folk (Pauline Only Group) take the emphasis off of Christ ultimately and place it totally on Paul.

Look at what this is hinged on. Paul's use of "my gospel." That is simply Paul speaking of the gospel that he preached. It wasn't the gospel of Paul. Yet this is exactly what this is being made to be. The gospel of Paul. The "mystery" was spoken of by Peter as well. This would be no mystery if someone would read Scripture as it was intended to be read.

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2007, 02:11 PM
The argument that will be made in the Acts passage... one that you hear from not just Pauline Only folks. Keep in mind that there are many other doctrines out there who are not brazen enough to ever admit to being Pauline Only... but rest assured they often practice Pauline Only theology. Give a Scripture in Peter, James, Hebrews or John... they run to Paul's writings to attempt to negate the other passages. That is nothing short of acting like you're Pauline Only. They will even make the case that Paul was the "Apostle to the Gentiles" thus implying that Paul's writings have more weight than the others. While they don't claim Pauline Only... their actions are those of Paul Only. Then comes the words on Acts... "IT IS A TRANSITIONAL BOOK." It is not a transitional book. It is Scripture and it is just as important in forming doctrine, equipping, etc. as any other letter or book of the Bible.

Here we see it clear... Paul preached the same gospel to the Jew first. It was often rejected and that was when Paul then took that same message to the Gentile who were much more receptive. Paul being an "Apostle to the Gentile" was simply his calling. Peter and the other 11 being Apostle's to the Jew... that was what they were called to do as recorded in the various gospels. But even still... Peter was the first to preach to a Gentile. Then after Peter... it wasn't Paul and Barnabas that only went out to the Gentile. That was being done by others right after Peter was given the vision that the Gentile was not "unclean." So while Paul and Barnabas were specially sent out for that purpose... it doesn't mean they were given different messages in regard to the good news of Christ.

The Law didn't save the Jew. The Law cannot save the Gentile. The Law was never intended to save anyone. It wasn't given to the Jew as the way to salvation. God never treated it as the way to salvation. That wasn't ever the purpose of the law.

Terral
Dec 10th 2007, 02:14 PM
Hi Jeff:


Jeff >> Were this hypothesis true, don't you think God would have made it a little more obvious? God has made the OP (two gospels) hypothesis very clear, by sending Christ to preach the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 4:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:23;&version=49;)) straight out of the gate some three years ‘before’ He died for anyone.
“Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand [Matthew 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%203:2;&version=49;), Matthew 4:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:17;&version=49;)]; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=49;).Surely you realize that God sent Christ to Calvary to die for the sins of every ‘believer’ in our Gospel long after this “Gospel of God” is preached in Mark 1, so obviously God is not calling for anyone to believe Paul’s good news (1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-4;&version=49;)) that God raised Christ from the dead on the third day. God sent Christ to Israel ONLY (Matthew 15:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2015:24;&version=49;)) in the Four Gospels, as Christ sent His disciples to Israel ONLY in the very same way (Matthew 10:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:5-7;&version=49;)). Denominationalism blends the ‘two gospels’ of the NT together into a series of man-made false gospels that God sent to NOBODY, which finds men adding the ‘works’ of Gospel #1 to Paul’s “my gospel” (#2) that MUST be obeyed APART from works (Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9;&version=49;)). Adding works to our gospel for today (#2) makes VOID (1 Corinthians 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:17;&version=49;)) the power of the cross to save anyone. For that reason MANY are blinded by the ‘god of this world’ (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%204:3-4;&version=49;)) and are under the spell of the “deluding influence” forcing them to “believe what is false” (2 Thessalonians 2:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:11;&version=49;)) all their days upon this earth. Therefore, what Peter warns concerning “these things” (2 Peter 3:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:14-16;&version=49;)) about the “wisdom given him” (Paul) escapes the notice of MANY being led to their “own destruction.”

The Opening Post shows the ‘two’ gospels of the NT laid out using eight directly opposing doctrinal precepts. Please “quote >>” anything that appears off and support your opposing arguments using Scripture (2 Timothy 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:15;&version=49;)), so perhaps we have something to actually debate. God bless you,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

jeffreys
Dec 10th 2007, 02:20 PM
Hi Jeff:

God has made the OP (two gospels) hypothesis very clear, by sending Christ to preach the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 4:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:23;&version=49;)) straight out of the gate some three years ‘before’ He died for anyone. Surely you realize that God sent Christ to Calvary to die for the sins of every ‘believer’ in our Gospel long after this “Gospel of God” is preached in Mark 1, so obviously God is not calling for anyone to believe Paul’s good news (1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-4;&version=49;)) that God raised Christ from the dead on the third day. God sent Christ to Israel ONLY (Matthew 15:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2015:24;&version=49;)) in the Four Gospels, as Christ sent His disciples to Israel ONLY in the very same way (Matthew 10:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:5-7;&version=49;)). Denominationalism blends the ‘two gospels’ of the NT together into a series of man-made false gospels that God sent to NOBODY, which finds men adding the ‘works’ of Gospel #1 to Paul’s “my gospel” (#2) that MUST be obeyed APART from works (Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9;&version=49;)). Adding works to our gospel for today (#2) makes VOID (1 Corinthians 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:17;&version=49;)) the power of the cross to save anyone. For that reason MANY are blinded by the ‘god of this world’ (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%204:3-4;&version=49;)) and are under the spell of the “deluding influence” forcing them to “believe what is false” (2 Thessalonians 2:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:11;&version=49;)) all their days upon this earth. Therefore, what Peter warns concerning “these things” (2 Peter 3:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:14-16;&version=49;)) about the “wisdom given him” (Paul) escapes the notice of MANY being led to their “own destruction.”

The Opening Post shows the ‘two’ gospels of the NT laid out using eight directly opposing doctrinal precepts. Please “quote >>” anything that appears off and support your opposing arguments using Scripture (2 Timothy 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:15;&version=49;)), so perhaps we have something to actually debate. God bless you,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Galatians 1:6-9 "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

Paul then uses the majority of the remainder of his Epistle to the Galatians to confirm the fact that both Jews and Gentiles are saved through faith in the atoning work of Jesus the Christ - not by upholding the Old Testament Law.

Paul did not teach a second gospel. He affirmed the Gospel of Jesus. Galatians 3:26-28, " You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. "

Terral
Dec 10th 2007, 02:38 PM
Hi David:


David >> There is one gospel, the Good New gospel of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:6;&version=49;)). If we are going to completely ignore God’s True “Context,” then you can make His Living Word say just about anything. You are quoting from the Pauline Epistles written in ‘context’ to “my gospel” (Romans 16:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2016:25;&version=49;)) received “through a revelation of Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:11-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=49;)), AFTER Paul’s conversion in Acts 9:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:15;&version=49;). What has your statement to do with the “Gospel of God” being preached by Christ Himself (Mark 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=49;)) as the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 4:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:23;&version=49;)) straight out of the gate in Mark 1?? Nothing. David is pretending the phrase “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 24:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:14;&version=49;), etc.) does not even exist in the Four Gospels. :0) You are characterizing Gospel #2 of the OP as the “only gospel,” when Peter, John and James were all saved in the Four Gospels ‘before’ Christ died for anyone. Your supposition is that Christ preached “Kill Me for your salvation!,” when that idea has no basis in Biblical fact at all. We see sins being forgiven in Mark 1:4-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:4-5;&version=49;) before Christ died for sins, because this is God’s provision of salvation for Israel (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:76-77;&version=49;) of the flesh through their obedience to the “Gospel of the Kingdom,” which is Gospel #1 of the OP.


David >> Paul taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, and taught to avoid anyone who taught a different gospel than the Gospel of Christ he taught. Paul is teaching that Gospel #2 of the OP is the ‘only gospel’ for THESE GALATIANS, as Israel had already rejected the Gospel of the Kingdom from John the Baptist, Christ (Matthew 17:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2017:12;&version=49;)) and by murdering/exiling the Kingdom Disciples. Our gospel for today (#2 from OP) was revealed to the Apostle Paul, because of Israel’s ‘transgression’ (Romans 11:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:11;&version=49;)), because they stumbled over Christ (Romans 9:30-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:30-32;&version=49;)) by refusing to obey the “Gospel of the Kingdom.”

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

jeffreys
Dec 10th 2007, 02:43 PM
I know this is a total waste of time, in view of the OP, but hey - it never hurts to see how Scripture disproves a heresy.

Romans 6:1-7 - "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."



Paul never saved anyone.

Jesus saves. Period.

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2007, 02:48 PM
Hi Jeff:

God has made the OP (two gospels) hypothesis very clear, by sending Christ to preach the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 4:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:23;&version=49;)) straight out of the gate some three years ‘before’ He died for anyone. Surely you realize that God sent Christ to Calvary to die for the sins of every ‘believer’ in our Gospel long after this “Gospel of God” is preached in Mark 1, so obviously God is not calling for anyone to believe Paul’s good news (1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-4;&version=49;)) that God raised Christ from the dead on the third day. God sent Christ to Israel ONLY (Matthew 15:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2015:24;&version=49;)) in the Four Gospels, as Christ sent His disciples to Israel ONLY in the very same way (Matthew 10:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:5-7;&version=49;)). Denominationalism blends the ‘two gospels’ of the NT together into a series of man-made false gospels that God sent to NOBODY, which finds men adding the ‘works’ of Gospel #1 to Paul’s “my gospel” (#2) that MUST be obeyed APART from works (Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9;&version=49;)). Adding works to our gospel for today (#2) makes VOID (1 Corinthians 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:17;&version=49;)) the power of the cross to save anyone. For that reason MANY are blinded by the ‘god of this world’ (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%204:3-4;&version=49;)) and are under the spell of the “deluding influence” forcing them to “believe what is false” (2 Thessalonians 2:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:11;&version=49;)) all their days upon this earth. Therefore, what Peter warns concerning “these things” (2 Peter 3:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:14-16;&version=49;)) about the “wisdom given him” (Paul) escapes the notice of MANY being led to their “own destruction.”

The Opening Post shows the ‘two’ gospels of the NT laid out using eight directly opposing doctrinal precepts. Please “quote >>” anything that appears off and support your opposing arguments using Scripture (2 Timothy 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:15;&version=49;)), so perhaps we have something to actually debate. God bless you,

In Christ Jesus,

TerralYou think they oppose but that is because you take even Paul's writings in part and parcel. If you read the total letter as written to the various churches... you are going to find there is no contradiction at all.

You are hanging everything on the use of "my gospel" and that was simply Paul speaking of the gospel he preached. It is like when Paul says "so I can save some"... Paul couldn't save anyone but Paul was simply saying the message he preached could save some. It wasn't that it was only something Paul could personally do... same as "my gospel" is not something that only Paul had. It is simply ludicrous to read it that way.

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2007, 02:49 PM
Hi David:

If we are going to completely ignore God’s True “Context,” then you can make His Living Word say just about anything. You are quoting from the Pauline Epistles written in ‘context’ to “my gospel” (Romans 16:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2016:25;&version=49;)) received “through a revelation of Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:11-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=49;)), AFTER Paul’s conversion in Acts 9:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:15;&version=49;). What has your statement to do with the “Gospel of God” being preached by Christ Himself (Mark 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=49;)) as the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 4:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:23;&version=49;)) straight out of the gate in Mark 1?? Nothing. David is pretending the phrase “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 24:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:14;&version=49;), etc.) does not even exist in the Four Gospels. :0) You are characterizing Gospel #2 of the OP as the “only gospel,” when Peter, John and James were all saved in the Four Gospels ‘before’ Christ died for anyone. Your supposition is that Christ preached “Kill Me for your salvation!,” when that idea has no basis in Biblical fact at all. We see sins being forgiven in Mark 1:4-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:4-5;&version=49;) before Christ died for sins, because this is God’s provision of salvation for Israel (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:76-77;&version=49;) of the flesh through their obedience to the “Gospel of the Kingdom,” which is Gospel #1 of the OP.

Paul is teaching that Gospel #2 of the OP is the ‘only gospel’ for THESE GALATIANS, as Israel had already rejected the Gospel of the Kingdom from John the Baptist, Christ (Matthew 17:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2017:12;&version=49;)) and by murdering/exiling the Kingdom Disciples. Our gospel for today (#2 from OP) was revealed to the Apostle Paul, because of Israel’s ‘transgression’ (Romans 11:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:11;&version=49;)), because they stumbled over Christ (Romans 9:30-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:30-32;&version=49;)) by refusing to obey the “Gospel of the Kingdom.”

In Christ Jesus,

TerralPaul preached that same Gospel of God there hoss. ;)

1 Timothy 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

You are trying to make something into something that just ain't there.

Terral
Dec 10th 2007, 02:53 PM
Hi Michael:


Michael >> This is very dangerous ground. Beware the minefield. The fact is that MANY here have blended the doctrinal components of the ‘two gospels’ together into a false gospel God sent to nobody and THAT is something very dangerous indeed. Peter warns that many people are distorting the “wisdom given him” to their “own destruction (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:14-16;&version=49;).” Right? Okay then. The “Gospel of the Kingdom (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:23;&version=49;)” is preached LONG before Paul is even converted and long before our gospel for today was given to him through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=49;)’ Suppose for one minute that the “Gospel of the Kingdom (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%209:35;&version=49;)” (Gospel #1) is something else (and it is). In that case, then adding those doctrinal precepts into Gospel #2 is doing exactly the very thing Peter is warning everyone about.

Everyone here has the same opportunity to “quote >>” anything from the Opening Post to offer your own advocating or opposing views using Scripture (2 Timothy 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:15;&version=49;)). Right? :0) At the very worst, your “one gospel” side of this debate has the opportunity to lay out ‘your’ doctrine of salvation in a list of doctrinal precepts. Please use this grand occasion to show yourself approved to God by ‘rightly dividing’ the word of truth, so everyone here can determine who is (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011:19;&version=49;) and is not approved. That will allow everyone involved to know more about Michael’s methods of interpreting Scripture regarding our Gospel (#2) for today.

Good luck in the debate,

In Christ Jesus via Gospel #2,

Terral

Brother Mark
Dec 10th 2007, 03:03 PM
1 Cor 1:10-17
11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
NASU

The OP has some cleverness of speech, but it is the cross of Christ that is important! Paul doesn't save. Jesus does. Paul's gospel is THE gospel and it is the same one Jesus preached.

jeffreys
Dec 10th 2007, 03:05 PM
Terral;

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gifI'm waiting for you to try to explain away Galatians 3:26-28 - "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."


:hmm:

David Taylor
Dec 10th 2007, 03:17 PM
Hi David:

You are characterizing Gospel #2 of the OP as the “only gospel,” when Peter, John and James were all saved in the Four Gospels ‘before’ Christ died for anyone. Your supposition is that Christ preached “Kill Me for your salvation!,” when that idea has no basis in Biblical fact at all.


Another fallicy of Paulineism.....

That pre-Pauline salvation was different than post-Pauline salvation....the Pauline notion above that Christ didn't preach his death for the salvation of sin.

All of these passages, long before Paul put pencil to paper, show Christ did preach His death for the salvation of sin.


Matthew 26:28 Jesus said, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

John 10:15 Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep."

John 12:32 Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. "

Luke 24:44 "And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."


One Gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ....taught by Moses, Job, David, Isaiah, Matthew, John, Peter....many others...including Paul.

No different gospel whatsoever.

mcgyver
Dec 10th 2007, 03:34 PM
There is a vital point that many, if not most people overlook...The early churches did not exist in a vacuum! Word of false teaching rapidly came back to the Apostles...Read the Epistles to the churches and it rapidly becomes apparent that most of these letters were written by the author in another place (e.g. Rome) to be read in the churches.

Rome had the most advanced communications and road networks of the day, and the early Christians made full use of them. They talked to each other, shared "memoirs of the Apostles" (Justin Martyr, first apology e.g.), and the Apostles themselves did not camp in Jerusalem; but went all over the place both establishing churches, and giving guidance when they heard of an assembly of believers. They were vitally concerned that the true Gospel be preached. Acts chapters 8-10 (as an example) gives a lot of place names visited by the Apostles.

The idea that there were (or are) two separate Gospels (Pauline and "other) is both ludicrous, and is shot down in flames in the book of Galatians chapter 2:

1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.

Paul laid out in detail the very Gospel he preached; to James, Peter, and John (which they had most certainly heard about it anyway).

So what did these Apostles have to say about "Pauls" Gospel? Let's see in verses 9-10:

9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

No correction, no "you need to change the message", no "stop preaching that"...but rather the right hand of fellowship...Absolute acceptance!

There is only One Gospel...

Interestingly enough, what I am seeing is the same dynamic that motivated the Judaizers to teach that a Gentile had to first become a Jew before he could be a Christian...a mis-interpretation of scripture. Although we have the following recorded in Romans...The message that Paul preached was:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.


The Judaizers used this very thing (plus OT scripture) to "prove" that you had to be a Jew first....

An Old heresy, revisited.....

Terral
Dec 10th 2007, 04:45 PM
Hi Peter:

Thank you for writing.


Peter >> Let me put some Scripture to this that nails this doctrine as a bad doctrine. First of all, you did not quote one single word from the Opening Post to give your statements ‘context’ to anything from ‘my’ two gospels interpretation. This reply from you may as well be a brand new thread about something else. Should I reply to your post (#5) by using a blank sheet of paper to begin characterizing your arguments to THEN ramble aimlessly about something else? No. I will ‘quote >>’ you in the same way you should have quoted me, before I begin showing everyone here the difference. Every single word of my OP Presentation remains standing, until someone among you can ‘quote >>’ the error to offer your own ‘supported’ statements for something else using Scripture (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:15;&version=49;).


Peter Quotes >> Acts 26:19 "Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

Peter’s Commentary >> Paul made no distinction in his message. It was the same to the Jew as it was the Gentile. Paul what? Paul is making these statements to King Agrippa in about 60 AD, or about thirty years AFTER Christ is preaching the “Gospel of God” back in Mark 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=49;). What has anything Paul is saying to King Agrippa to do with the “Gospel of the Kingdom” preached by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%203:1-6;&version=49;)), Christ Himself (Matthew 4:17-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:17-23;&version=49;)) or the Twelve (Matthew 10:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:5-7;&version=49;)) almost three decades earlier? Nothing. Please direct your attention to something I ‘did’ present in the Opening Post, if your statements are to have application to something in ‘this’ debate.


Peter >> This Pauline Only doctrine is dangerous stuff because they negate the very thing that Paul implored Timothy to do. This is Peter’s unsupported conclusion based upon his opinions and not from anything proven in Post #5 at all, as if a quote from Acts 26 makes his “one gospel” case. In fact, most of your arguments on the “Once Saved Always Saved (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=107259)” thread have a basis in this ‘two gospels’ interpretation of Scripture, whether you realize that today or not. The believers in our gospel (#2) have lives hidden with Christ IN God (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:1-3;&version=49;), but the Kingdom Disciples saved via the “Gospel of the Kingdom (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:14;&version=49;)” (#1) must “endure to the end (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:13;&version=49;)” to be saved. If Peter will kindly post the precepts teaching his “one gospel” interpretation of Scripture, like I have done in the OP, then we can begin seeing how he is mixing the two gospels together. For example:

The Gospel of the Kingdom (#1) has repentance, confession of sins and WATER baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:4-5;&version=49;), Acts 2:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:38;&version=49;)). However, our gospel for today (#2) has Christ’s shed BLOOD (Ephesians 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:7;&version=49;)) for the forgiveness of sins and the very same purpose. Those facts are what make Precept #4 for the ‘two gospels’ (see OP again) ‘directly opposing’ to one another. Will Peter select water baptism for the forgiveness of sins to teach his never presented “one gospel” myth, OR will he select Christ’s shed blood from Gospel #2? :0) The Kingdom Disciples believing the Gospel of the Kingdom receive the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands (Acts 8:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2012:17;&version=49;), Acts 19:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:6;&version=49;)), but we (body of Christ) receive the Spirit by ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:2;&version=49;)). Will Peter select the laying of hands for receiving the Holy Spirit for his “one gospel,” OR will he select Precept #6 for Gospel #2 teaching that ‘we’ receive the Holy Spirit by hearing with faith? If the Samarians (Acts 8:12-17 (http://bibleforums.org/Acts%208:12-17)) and the disciples (Acts 19:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1-6;&version=49;)) received the Holy Spirit by ‘hearing with faith,’ (not) then they would have received the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:12 and Acts 9:1-4 respectively. That is NOT the case, because God called ‘both’ of these groups to the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1-6;&version=49;)” (like Peter, John and James) to receive the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands part of ‘three’ baptisms in the name of the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19 (http://bibleforums.org/Matthew%2028:19)). The reason I can create ‘two’ sets of doctrinal precepts using Scripture in the Opening Post, is because ‘both’ Gospel messages are clearly preached in God’s Living Word.


Peter Quotes >> 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Peter’s Commentary >> What the Pauline Only folks would have you believe is that only Paul's writings are profitable for correction, reproof, doctrine and training in righteousness. It is gross error. Peter is once again characterizing my OP views without quoting A SINGLE WORD. What has Paul’s words in 2 Timothy 3:16 (http://bibleforums.org/2%20Timothy%203:16) to do with Christ preaching the “Gospel of God (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=49;)” in Mark 1 almost 40 years earlier? Nothing. Again, Christ is gathering the members of the Prophetic Kingdom “BRIDE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:29;&version=49;)” in the Four Gospels by offering the “Gospel of the Kingdom,” until the “chosen obtained it [like Peter, John and James), and the rest [like the chief priests, scribes and hypocrites] were hardened.” Romans 11:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:7;&version=49;). Peter is characterizing and generalizing without ever addressing the topic of this thread at all. What did Christ Himself preach straight out of the gate in Mark 1:14-15? Did Christ preach Himself crucified (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:2;&version=49;) saying that God raised Him from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-4;&version=49;))? No! These are the simple ‘facts’ in this case that Peter appears reluctant to even address.


Peter >> It discounts not only all Scripture but the very teaching of Christ. No where do you see folks called Paulians. They are called Christians. Paul died for nobody. :0) But he did become our father in Christ through the gospel. 1Corinthians 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians%204:15;&version=49;). Hopefully your “one gospel” arguments on this thread are ‘not’ based upon what appears “No where.” Christ died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-4;&version=49;)), but that has NOTHING to do with the “Gospel of the Kingdom” presented as Gospel #1 in the OP of this thread. If you would like to prove otherwise, then please be our guest . . .


Peter >> Paul says follow me as I FOLLOW CHRIST. Paul says what? Where? The terms “follow” and “Christ” appear together in just three verses of Scripture (1Peter 1:11 (http://bibleforums.org/1Peter%201:11), 1Peter 2:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:21;&version=49;), 2Peter 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201:16;&version=49;)), but none of them say to “follow Christ.” Those of us called to God by our gospel (#2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:13-14;&version=49;)) have been ‘baptized into Christ’ (Galatians 3:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201:16;&version=49;)) and have been “crucified with Christ” (Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201:16;&version=49;)), so that our lives are hidden with Christ IN God (Colossians 3:3 (http://bibleforums.org/Colossians%203:3)). Nobody that is truly “IN” Christ can possibly ‘follow’ Him anywhere. :0) Perhaps you are making reference to something from John 21:19-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2021:19-22;&version=49;).


Peter >> Paul makes it clear in Scripture that we are to follow the teaching of Christ. And this has application to this “Two Gospels” Topic in what way? :0) Since our gospel (#2) was given to Paul through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=49;),’ then obviously we are following the ‘teaching of Christ’ by realizing Paul’s words represent the “Lord’s Commandment” of 1Corinthians 14:37-38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=49;). Paul is the ‘steward’ (1 Corinthians 9:17 (http://bibleforums.org/1%20Corinthians%209:17)) over every member of the “Body of Christ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;)” for this “Dispensation of God’s Grace (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;),” exactly like Moses is the steward over Israel of the flesh. The teachings contained in the Pauline Epistles do not originate with Paul, but were received through ‘visions and revelations of the Lord’ (2 Corinthians 12:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;)). The rich man wanted Abraham to send someone to warn his five brothers (Luke 16:28), but what was the reply for Israel of the flesh?


"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'" Luke 16:29-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:29-31;&version=49;). The Lord God of the OT (Christ) speaks ‘through’ Moses and Mosaic Law in the very same way He (our Risen Lord) is speaking to the members of Christ’s body ‘through’ Paul and these Grace Epistles written to Gentiles. However, if you feel confident in distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:14-16;&version=49;)) with the other witnesses of Scripture, then that is completely up to Peter.


Peter >> He goes to great pains to put the emphasis on Christ. Paul’s “Word of the Cross (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:18;&version=49;)” gospel message has complete focus upon Christ as our Lord (Romans 10:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:18;&version=49;)) that God raised from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-4;&version=49;)). He writes,


“And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to OUR GLORY; the wisdom which NONE of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would NOT have crucified the Lord of glory . . .”. 1Corithians 2:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:1-8;&version=49;). Peter’s opinion is that Terral and Paul are somehow preaching something other than “Jesus Christ and HIM CRUCIFIED,” when nothing could be farther from the truth. The fact that the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (#1 in OP) is something totally different has NOTHING to do with Gospel #2 being ‘our gospel’ for today. God is simply gathering members to the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” using the Gospel of the Kingdom (#1 from OP) AND gathering members to a totally separate “Mystery is Great” (Eph. 5:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:32;&version=49;)) “BODY of Christ” (Eph. 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;) = that’s us) using Paul’s “Word of the Cross” (#2 in OP) gospel for today. The substance of my OP presentation is over the ‘differences’ between these ‘two’ gospel messages and NOT about what Paul is ‘saying’ to King Agrippa or ‘teaching’ Timothy almost 40 years later. The rulers of this age did NOT understand Paul’s gospel and obviously MANY people here today also do not know the differences between these ‘two’ gospels of the New Testament, but hopefully that will change here shortly. :0)


Peter >> The Berean folk (Pauline Only Group) take the emphasis off of Christ ultimately and place it totally on Paul. The “Berean folk” have NOTHING to do with my two gospels presentation in the OP, or the presentation of your ‘one gospel’ doctrinal precepts; if my debating adversaries ever get around to posting that for our benefit.


Peter >> Look at what this is hinged on. Paul's use of "my gospel." That is simply Paul speaking of the gospel that he preached. Please forgive, but Paul preaches ‘both’ of these gospel messages for gathering the Kingdom ‘bride’ and the Grace ‘body’ in Scripture. He is referring to ‘my gospel’ as the “Gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;)) and heralding the “Gospel of the Kingdom” as “preaching the kingdom” (Acts 20:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2020:25;&version=49;)) concerning the “whole Purpose of God” (Acts 20:27 (http://bibleforums.org/27%22For%20I%20%28A%29did%20not%20shrink%20from%20 declaring%20to%20you%20the%20whole%20%28B%29purpos e%20of%20God.)). All of that is presented in the OP, if anyone ever gets around to addressing something I ‘did’ present to begin this gospel debate.


Peter >> It wasn't the gospel of Paul. Yet this is exactly what this is being made to be. The gospel of Paul. The "mystery" was spoken of by Peter as well. This would be no mystery if someone would read Scripture as it was intended to be read. No sir. Paul’s “my gospel” is Gospel #2 in the OP given to him by a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=49;).’ The “Gospel of the Kingdom” (#1 in OP) was obviously preached by John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve long before Paul was ever converted.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2007, 04:46 PM
Hi Michael:

The fact is that MANY here have blended the doctrinal components of the ‘two gospels’ together into a false gospel God sent to nobody and THAT is something very dangerous indeed. Peter warns that many people are distorting the “wisdom given him” to their “own destruction (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:14-16;&version=49;).” Right?This is another example of taking something simple and turning it into a roller coaster ride.

Galatians 1:15 But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased
16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.
18 ¶Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.
19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.
20 (Now in what I am writing to you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.)
21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.


Paul, after his conversion, didn't run get counsel from men. He simply learned what he did from Christ and Scripture. His teacher was Jesus and not man. After 3 years he became acquainted with Peter and stayed with him a couple of weeks. It wasn't until 14 years later when Paul went to confirm what he was teaching to be true with the whole group of elders and Apostles (Acts 15) and they concurred that he was teaching rightly. They gave him a letter, along with others, and they took the letter to the various churches.

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2007, 05:03 PM
Hi Peter:

Thank you for writing.

First of all, you did not quote one single word from the Opening Post to give your statements ‘context’ to anything from ‘my’ two gospels interpretation.It isn't necessary. The entire doctrine is way easily refuted without going tit for tat with your interpretation of things.


This reply from you may as well be a brand new thread about something else. Should I reply to your post (#5) by using a blank sheet of paper to begin characterizing your arguments to THEN ramble aimlessly about something else?rambling is rambling whether it has aim or not. ;)


No. I will ‘quote >>’ you in the same way you should have quoted me, before I begin showing everyone here the difference. Every single word of my OP Presentation remains standing, until someone among you can ‘quote >>’ the error to offer your own ‘supported’ statements for something else using Scripture (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:15;&version=49;).I did use Scripture that shows clearly that Paul made no differentiation to the Jew or Gentile when preaching the gospel. There lies the main point.




Paul what? Paul is making these statements to King Agrippa in about 60 AD, or about thirty years AFTER Christ is preaching the “Gospel of God” back in Mark 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=49;). What has anything Paul is saying to King Agrippa to do with the “Gospel of the Kingdom” preached by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%203:1-6;&version=49;)), Christ Himself (Matthew 4:17-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:17-23;&version=49;)) or the Twelve (Matthew 10:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:5-7;&version=49;)) almost three decades earlier? Nothing. Please direct your attention to something I ‘did’ present in the Opening Post, if your statements are to have application to something in ‘this’ debate. Like I said in the next post... this sort of thing is all you guys can pull. Simple fact of the matter... you only adhere to Paul's writing. Acts was written by Luke therefore you reject it. ;) Let's just jump on down to that place where the rubber meets the road eh? :)



This is Peter’s unsupported conclusion based upon his opinions and not from anything proven in Post #5 at all, as if a quote from Acts 26 makes his “one gospel” case. In fact, most of your arguments on the “Once Saved Always Saved (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=107259)” thread have a basis in this ‘two gospels’ interpretation of Scripture, whether you realize that today or not. The believers in our gospel (#2) have lives hidden with Christ IN God (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:1-3;&version=49;), but the Kingdom Disciples saved via the “Gospel of the Kingdom (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:14;&version=49;)” (#1) must “endure to the end (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:13;&version=49;)” to be saved. If Peter will kindly post the precepts teaching his “one gospel” interpretation of Scripture, like I have done in the OP, then we can begin seeing how he is mixing the two gospels together. For example:Beauty of it is... the large majority of folks in here who subscribe to OSAS would totally reject the idea that you are pushing. So if that's the best you have... you don't have much!

As to it being my opinion... no. It was Scripture that you didn't nor will you address other than to say it isn't applicable. Simple truth... you don't recognize it as valid because it ain't written by Paul.


The Gospel of the Kingdom (#1) has repentance, confession of sins and WATER baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:4-5;&version=49;), Acts 2:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:38;&version=49;)). However, our gospel for today (#2) has Christ’s shed BLOOD (Ephesians 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:7;&version=49;)) for the forgiveness of sins and the very same purpose. Those facts are want make Precept #4 for the ‘two gospels’ (see OP again) ‘directly opposing’ to one another. Will Peter select water baptism for the forgiveness of sins to teach his never presented “one gospel” myth, OR will he select Christ’s shed blood from Gospel #2? :0) The Kingdom Disciples believing the Gospel of the Kingdom receive the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands (Acts 8:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2012:17;&version=49;), Acts 19:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:6;&version=49;)), but we (body of Christ) receive the Spirit by ‘hearing with faith’ (Galatians 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:2;&version=49;)). Will Peter select the laying of hands for receiving the Holy Spirit for his “one gospel,” OR will he select Precept #6 for Gospel #2 teaching that ‘we’ receive the Holy Spirit by hearing with faith? If the Samarians (Acts 8:12-17 (http://bibleforums.org/Acts%208:12-17)) and the disciples (Acts 19:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1-6;&version=49;)) received the Holy Spirit by ‘hearing with faith,’ (not) then they would have received the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:12 and Acts 9:1-4 respectively. That is NOT the case, because God called ‘both’ of these groups to the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1-6;&version=49;)” (like Peter, John and James) to receive the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands part of ‘three’ baptisms in the name of the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19 (http://bibleforums.org/Matthew%2028:19)). The reason I can create ‘two’ sets of doctrinal precepts using Scripture in the Opening Post, is because ‘both’ Gospel messages are clearly preached in God’s Living Word.

Peter is once again characterizing my OP views without quoting A SINGLE WORD. What has Paul’s words in 2 Timothy 3:16 (http://bibleforums.org/2%20Timothy%203:16) have to do with Christ preaching the “Gospel of God (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=49;)” in Mark 1 almost 40 years earlier? Nothing. Again, Christ is gathering the members of the Prophetic Kingdom “BRIDE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:29;&version=49;)” in the Four Gospels by offering the “Gospel of the Kingdom,” until the “chosen obtained it [like Peter, John and James), and the rest [like the chief priests, scribes and hypocrites] were hardened.” Romans 11:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:7;&version=49;). Peter is characterizing and generalizing without ever addressing the topic of this thread at all. What did Christ Himself preach straight out of the gate in Mark 1:14-15? Did Christ preach Himself crucified (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:2;&version=49;) saying that God raised Him from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-4;&version=49;))? No! These are the simple ‘facts’ in this case that Peter appears reluctant to even address.I don't have to address them. The whole concept is built on a faulty premise. Tell me... how was Paul saved? Under which gospel?



Paul died for nobody. :0) But he did become our father in Christ through the gospel. 1Corinthians 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians%204:15;&version=49;). Hopefully your “one gospel” arguments on this thread are ‘not’ based upon what appears “No where.” Christ died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-4;&version=49;)), but that has NOTHING to do with the “Gospel of the Kingdom” presented as Gospel #1 in the OP of this thread. If you would like to prove otherwise, then please be our guest . . . As Paul would say... God forbid.

You are doing nothing less than what the church of Corinth did. Paul would call you carnal at best. Worse... teaching falsely.



Paul says what? Where? The terms “follow” and “Christ” appear together in just three verses of Scripture (1Peter 1:11 (http://bibleforums.org/1Peter%201:11), 1Peter 2:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:21;&version=49;), 2Peter 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201:16;&version=49;)), but none of them say to “follow Christ.” Those of us called to God by our gospel (#2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:13-14;&version=49;)) have been ‘baptized into Christ’ (Galatians 3:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201:16;&version=49;)) and have been “crucified with Christ” (Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201:16;&version=49;)), so that our lives are hidden with Christ IN God (Colossians 3:3 (http://bibleforums.org/Colossians%203:3)). Nobody that is truly “IN” Christ can possibly ‘follow’ Him anywhere. :0) Perhaps you are making reference to something from John 21:19-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2021:19-22;&version=49;). Don't totally rely on Concordances. The message is often missed that way because you are looking for certain words alone.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.



And this has application to this “Two Gospels” Topic in what way? :0) Since our gospel (#2) was given to Paul through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=49;),’ then obviously we are following the ‘teaching of Christ’ by realizing Paul’s words represent the “Lord’s Commandment” of 1Corinthians 14:37-38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=49;). Paul is the ‘steward’ (1 Corinthians 9:17 (http://bibleforums.org/1%20Corinthians%209:17)) over every member of the “Body of Christ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;)” for this “Dispensation of God’s Grace (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;),” exactly like Moses is the steward over Israel of the flesh. The teachings contained in the Pauline Epistles do not originate with Paul, but were received through ‘visions and revelations of the Lord’ (2 Corinthians 12:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;)). The rich man wanted Abraham to send someone to warn his five brothers (Luke 16:28), but what was the reply for Israel of the flesh?

The Lord God of the OT (Christ) speaks ‘through’ Moses and Mosaic Law in the very same way He (our Risen Lord) is speaking to the members of Christ’s body ‘through’ Paul and these Grace Epistles written to Gentiles. However, if you feel confident in distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:14-16;&version=49;)) with the other witnesses of Scripture, then that is completely up to Peter.

Paul’s “Word of the Cross (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:18;&version=49;)” gospel message has complete focus upon Christ as our Lord (Romans 10:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:18;&version=49;)) that God raised from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-4;&version=49;)). He writes,

Peter’s opinion is that Terral and Paul are somehow preaching something other than “Jesus Christ and HIM CRUCIFIED,” when nothing could be farther from the truth. The fact that the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (#1 in OP) is something totally different has NOTHING to do with Gospel #2 being ‘our gospel’ for today. God is simply gathering members to the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” using the Gospel of the Kingdom (#1 from OP) AND gathering members to a totally separate “Mystery is Great” (Eph. 5:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:32;&version=49;)) “BODY of Christ” (Eph. 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;) = that’s us) using Paul’s “Word of the Cross” (#2 in OP) gospel for today. The substance of my OP presentation is over the ‘differences’ between these ‘two’ gospel messages and NOT about what Paul is ‘saying’ to King Agrippa or ‘teaching’ Timothy almost 40 years later. The rulers of this age did NOT understand Paul’s gospel and obviously MANY people here today also do not know the differences between these ‘two’ gospels of the New Testament, but hopefully that will change here shortly. :0)

The “Berean folk” have NOTHING to do with my two gospels presentation in the OP, or the presentation of your ‘one gospel’ doctrinal precepts; if my debating adversaries ever get around to posting that for our benefit.

Please forgive, but Paul preaches ‘both’ of these gospel messages for gathering the Kingdom ‘bride’ and the Grace ‘body’ in Scripture. He is referring to ‘my gospel’ as the “Gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:12;&version=49;)) and heralding the “Gospel of the Kingdom” as “preaching the kingdom” (Acts 20:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2020:25;&version=49;)) concerning the “whole Purpose of God” (Acts 20:27 (http://bibleforums.org/27%22For%20I%20%28A%29did%20not%20shrink%20from%20 declaring%20to%20you%20the%20whole%20%28B%29purpos e%20of%20God.)). All of that is presented in the OP, if anyone ever gets around to addressing something I ‘did’ present to begin this gospel debate.

No sir. Paul’s “my gospel” is Gospel #2 in the OP given to him by a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:11-12;&version=49;).’ The “Gospel of the Kingdom” (#1 in OP) was obviously preached by John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve long before Paul was ever converted.

In Christ Jesus,

TerralThe rest... I won't even bother with.

Terral
Dec 10th 2007, 05:04 PM
Hi Peter:

Thank you for writing.


Peter >> The argument that will be made in the Acts passage... one that you hear from not just Pauline Only folks. Post #6 is nothing but more grandstanding apart from quoting a single word from the OP of this thread without even a single Scriptural reference. Please quote anything you find errant from the Opening Post AND support your opposing views using Scripture and perhaps we will have something to debate. If you really and truly believe in a ‘one gospel’ interpretation of Scripture, then please take a moment and jot down the doctrinal precepts teaching your doctrine of salvation the way mine appear for the two gospels in the OP of this thread. That will go a long way in helping to resolve our seeming differences. Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Brother Mark
Dec 10th 2007, 05:09 PM
Hi Peter:

Thank you for writing.

Post #6 is nothing but more grandstanding apart from quoting a single word from the OP of this thread without even a single Scriptural reference. Please quote anything you find errant from the Opening Post AND support your opposing views using Scripture and perhaps we will have something to debate. If you really and truly believe in a ‘one gospel’ interpretation of Scripture, then please take a moment and jot down the doctrinal precepts teaching your doctrine of salvation the way mine appear for the two gospels in the OP of this thread. That will go a long way in helping to resolve our seeming differences. Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

He has given plenty of scripture and thoughts for you to refute. Why dodge them? Since you wish to make a point, why not go ahead and dissect PP's post and teach us how wrong he is? So far, he seems to make better points than you do. But I am willing to read how you can show he is wrong by a point by point refutation of his post?

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2007, 05:12 PM
He's not going to be able to do that. When a person starts trying to make a case on this board... that we don't have to follow Christ... that's a doctrine that isn't going to get the time of day.

ProjectPeter
Dec 10th 2007, 06:34 PM
Okay... opened back up and moved into World Religions. This was about as creative an attempt for the 2 Gospel thing that I have seen... so worth discussing because it is growing in numbers. We'll be discussing it without the original poster and this is not something we normally do... but I think it important to hash through because it shows how far this doctrine has grown and gone over the years.

mcgyver
Dec 10th 2007, 08:13 PM
Hi PP, I agree that this heretical doctrine needs to be thoroughly discussed...

Before I go any further, let me state that I believe that there is only one Gospel; not two, three, or twenty; and that salvation is open to all who will believe...Jew or Gentile...bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

The reason that I stated that, is to clarify my position before I "build the case" as to the foundation (historically) of the "two Gospel" (TG from henceforth) doctrine.

(People do have a tendency to "skim" posts, do they not...yours truly included :P)

The following observations are my own opinions based on a synopsis of my own research.

Firstly, this is not a new doctrine, but one that has been around since our Lord walked the earth; and is in fact found in references to the "Judaizers" that we see in scripture, who were roundly condemned by the Apostles.

The Judaizer's held and taught that before a Gentile could become a Christian, they had to first become a Jew...and in this mindset we can see the beginning of the TG doctrine which rears its ugly head every now and then.

I think that we must first make an attempt to understand the Jewish mindset and political dynamic in the 1st century. By the time of Christ, we see that the Jews were fiercely...well...Jewish.

They felt that THEY were the chosen of God, that THEY were inheritors of the covenant, that THEY were the "sons of Abraham", that THEY were a superior "race" because of their position before God....after all; they were keepers of the law and not "sinners" like the gentiles. In fact (as we know) they were expecting Messiah to slay the gentile nations (primarily those nasty Romans) and restore the kingdom to Israel.

In fact, I ran across an Aramaic proverb of the time a while back which sums all this up nicely. Generally translated: "God created the Gentiles to fuel the flames of Hell".

Into this mindset comes Jesus Christ...not exactly the Messiah that they were expecting!

Jump forward now a couple of years....

The first believers (themselves Jews) start preaching that the Gentiles can now be acceptable in God's sight (gasp), that righteousness is found not through the keeping of the law, but faith in Christ (Say WHAT?:o), and they don't even have to be circumcised (oh, now that's just too much!). Worst of all....Peter even baptized a Roman Centurion!!!!!

To put this in contemporary terms...All this would be roughly equivalent to the leaders of the LDS church having a press conference and stating that Joseph Smith was a heretic, and that they're throwing out the book of Mormon!

Some things are just so outside one's paradigm that they can not reconcile it! The whole idea that Gentiles could enter into that which had (to date) been reserved to the Jewish people, the sons of Abraham, those of Israel was cataclysmic!

How in the world are we going to solve this problem?

Well let's see here...we already have two laws (the Pharisee's told us so)...the Torah and the Oral tradition (Mishnah, Midrash, Talmud)...we're used to the idea of two laws.....By Jove, I've got it! :idea:

There must be two Gospels...one for us and one for them! It fits, it works, it must be so!!!! The Gospel of the kingdom (after all, we as Jews are of God's kingdom), and another Gospel for those "lesser" Gentiles....Happy days, now I don't have to change my mind about anything! :hug:

And thus...IMO...the TG doctrine was born.....

I have (hopefully) injected some humor...but the subject is itself not humorous. It is truly sad IMO that having the complete Word of God that there are some who just can't accept it....:cry:

ProjectPeter
Dec 11th 2007, 01:40 PM
Hi PP, I agree that this heretical doctrine needs to be thoroughly discussed...

Before I go any further, let me state that I believe that there is only one Gospel; not two, three, or twenty; and that salvation is open to all who will believe...Jew or Gentile...bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

The reason that I stated that, is to clarify my position before I "build the case" as to the foundation (historically) of the "two Gospel" (TG from henceforth) doctrine.

(People do have a tendency to "skim" posts, do they not...yours truly included :P)

The following observations are my own opinions based on a synopsis of my own research.

Firstly, this is not a new doctrine, but one that has been around since our Lord walked the earth; and is in fact found in references to the "Judaizers" that we see in scripture, who were roundly condemned by the Apostles.

The Judaizer's held and taught that before a Gentile could become a Christian, they had to first become a Jew...and in this mindset we can see the beginning of the TG doctrine which rears its ugly head every now and then.

I think that we must first make an attempt to understand the Jewish mindset and political dynamic in the 1st century. By the time of Christ, we see that the Jews were fiercely...well...Jewish.

They felt that THEY were the chosen of God, that THEY were inheritors of the covenant, that THEY were the "sons of Abraham", that THEY were a superior "race" because of their position before God....after all; they were keepers of the law and not "sinners" like the gentiles. In fact (as we know) they were expecting Messiah to slay the gentile nations (primarily those nasty Romans) and restore the kingdom to Israel.

In fact, I ran across an Aramaic proverb of the time a while back which sums all this up nicely. Generally translated: "God created the Gentiles to fuel the flames of Hell".

Into this mindset comes Jesus Christ...not exactly the Messiah that they were expecting!

Jump forward now a couple of years....

The first believers (themselves Jews) start preaching that the Gentiles can now be acceptable in God's sight (gasp), that righteousness is found not through the keeping of the law, but faith in Christ (Say WHAT?:o), and they don't even have to be circumcised (oh, now that's just too much!). Worst of all....Peter even baptized a Roman Centurion!!!!!

To put this in contemporary terms...All this would be roughly equivalent to the leaders of the LDS church having a press conference and stating that Joseph Smith was a heretic, and that they're throwing out the book of Mormon!

Some things are just so outside one's paradigm that they can not reconcile it! The whole idea that Gentiles could enter into that which had (to date) been reserved to the Jewish people, the sons of Abraham, those of Israel was cataclysmic!

How in the world are we going to solve this problem?

Well let's see here...we already have two laws (the Pharisee's told us so)...the Torah and the Oral tradition (Mishnah, Midrash, Talmud)...we're used to the idea of two laws.....By Jove, I've got it! :idea:

There must be two Gospels...one for us and one for them! It fits, it works, it must be so!!!! The Gospel of the kingdom (after all, we as Jews are of God's kingdom), and another Gospel for those "lesser" Gentiles....Happy days, now I don't have to change my mind about anything! :hug:

And thus...IMO...the TG doctrine was born.....

I have (hopefully) injected some humor...but the subject is itself not humorous. It is truly sad IMO that having the complete Word of God that there are some who just can't accept it....:cry:
In many ways I agree.

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2007, 03:58 PM
Sometimes I see things that are so far out there, explanation seems, well weird. I had no reply because it seem so foreign and far fetched to me.

However, for the sake of discussion. Why would James be included to support the gospel of the kingdom? Seems inappropriate to me since it was written after Christ resurrection. That alone seems to throw a hole in his argument.

But an even greater hole is how Abraham was counted as righteous because of his belief and and Paul used him as an example.

David Taylor
Dec 11th 2007, 04:10 PM
The Pauline-ist mindset is that only the books written by Paul, and the later part of Acts, are written to the Gentile Church, and the only receivers of Paul's gospel.

They often anything else written outside of Paul, as being written only to the Jews, and written by their apostles (Peter, John, James, etc...)

ProjectPeter
Dec 11th 2007, 04:15 PM
The Pauline-ist mindset is that only the books written by Paul, and the later part of Acts, are written to the Gentile Church, and the only receivers of Paul's gospel.

They often anything else written outside of Paul, as being written only to the Jews, and written by their apostles (Peter, John, James, etc...)
Most even discount Acts as simply a translational book and as well they often believe in "progressive revelation" and discount much outside of the last seven letters of Paul and write off any disagreement as simply in Paul's early days before he had full revelation. I've seen it go goofy and then I've seen it go insane.

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2007, 04:49 PM
The Pauline-ist mindset is that only the books written by Paul, and the later part of Acts, are written to the Gentile Church, and the only receivers of Paul's gospel.

They often anything else written outside of Paul, as being written only to the Jews, and written by their apostles (Peter, John, James, etc...)

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. They have fallen into the same trap as the Corinthian church.