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hootinannie
Dec 11th 2007, 08:49 AM
I had a general feeling for the definition of the word "blasphemy" and I decided that since blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unforgiveable sin, it might behoove me to make absolutely certain I knew exactly what it is. So I looked it up at Dictionary.com

blas·phe·my http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png /ˈblæshttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngfəhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngmi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[blas-fuh-mee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -mies. 1.impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things. 2.Judaism. a.an act of cursing or reviling God. b.pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai. 3.Theology. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God. 4.irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.
[Origin: 1175–1225; ME blasphemie < LL blasphémia < Gk. See blasphemous (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=blasphemous), -y (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-y)3http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png]

—Synonyms 1. profanity, cursing, swearing; sacrilege, impiety.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.American Heritage Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html) - blas·phe·my (blās'fə-mē)
n. pl. blas·phe·mies

<LI minmax_bound="true">
<LI minmax_bound="true">A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct.[Middle English blasfemie, from Late Latin blasphēmia, from Greek blasphēmiā, from blasphēmein, to blaspheme; see blaspheme.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.Online Etymology Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/etymon.html)
blasphemy

c.1225, from O.Fr. blasfemie, from L.L. blasphemia, from Gk. blasphemia "profane, speech, slander," from blasphemein "to speak evil of." Second element is pheme "utterance" (see fame (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fame)); first element uncertain, perhaps related to blaptikos "hurtful," though blax "slack (in body and mind), stupid" has also been suggested.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas HarperWordNet (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/wn.html) - blasphemy
noun1. blasphemous language (expressing disrespect for God or for something sacred) 2. blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character; "desecration of the Holy Sabbath" [syn: profanation (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profanation)]
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/mwlaw.html)
Main Entry: blas·phe·my
Pronunciation: 'blas-f&-mE
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -mies
: the crime of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God or a religion and its doctrines and writings and esp. God as perceived by Christianity and Christian doctrines and writings —see also Amendment I to the CONSTITUTION (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=mwlaw&q=constitution) in the back matter
NOTE: In many states, blasphemy statutes have been repealed as contrary to the First Amendment.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/00-database-info?db=easton)
Blasphemy
In the sense of speaking evil of God this word is found in Ps. 74:18; Isa. 52:5; Rom. 2:24; Rev. 13:1, 6; 16:9, 11, 21. It denotes also any kind of calumny, or evil-speaking, or abuse (1 Kings 21:10; Acts 13:45; 18:6, etc.). Our Lord was accused of blasphemy when he claimed to be the Son of God (Matt. 26:65; comp. Matt. 9:3; Mark 2:7). They who deny his Messiahship blaspheme Jesus (Luke 22:65; John 10:36). Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28, 29; Luke 12:10) is regarded by some as a continued and obstinate rejection of the gospel, and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because as long as a sinner remains in unbelief he voluntarily excludes himself from pardon. Others regard the expression as designating the sin of attributing to the power of Satan those miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Spirit's agency.
Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary


This one:

The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.really struck me, since there are televangelists claiming equality with God, claiming that we ARE Gods and equal to God.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 11th 2007, 09:25 AM
Well Hoot,

And i have thought about this topic much. What struck you here:


The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.Has struck me also, and i wondered, don't "we" do exactly that anytime we deny God, and do our own thing ?
Remember afte the disobedience and fall of Adam and Eve He said they have become like "one of us" and the serpent said they would be "like God".... which means one takes all authority upon themselves instead of letting God have it.


Shalom,
Tanja

alethos
Dec 11th 2007, 11:44 AM
I had a general feeling for the definition of the word "blasphemy" and I decided that since blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unforgiveable sin, it might behoove me to make absolutely certain I knew exactly what it is.

I think most of us will agree that there is only one unforgiveable sin, and it is committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Therefore I looked through my Bible to find mention of occassions where it was stated in writting that a person or group of persons would not be forgiven for certain acts. From this study it appears to me that "the unforgiveable sin" has a broader definition than what we have previously given it. I believe we have been defining it too narrowly in the past for whatever reasons.

This will be my attempt to define what acts may be included in the unforgiveable sin, based soley on what I see in the Bible

1. Acts of rebellion against Him receive no forgiveness

Exo 23:21 Be on guard before Him, and listen to His voice. Do not be rebellious against Him, for He will not forgive your transgressions; for My name is in Him.

Lam 3:42 We have transgressed and rebelled; You, You have not forgiven.

2. Those whose heart turns away from the Lord receive no forgiveness

Deut 29:18 that there not be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turns away today from Jehovah our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you today a root that bears gall and wormwood;
Deut 29:19 and it happens when he hears the words of this curse, that he should bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart, to snatch away the drunken with the thirsty.
Deut 29:20 Jehovah will not be willing to forgive him, for then Jehovah's anger and His zeal shall smoke, and His zeal shall be against that man, and all the curses written in this book shall lie upon him. And Jehovah shall blot out his name from under the heavens.

3. Those who forsake the Lord receive no forgiveness

Josh 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve Jehovah; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgression nor your sins.
Josh 24:20 If ye forsake Jehovah, and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you evil, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

4. Acting defiantly means a person retains his guilt (iniquity) and in his being completely cut off

Num 15:30 But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that person shall utterly be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him.

5. Speaking against the Holy Spirit is an act which receives no forgiveness.

Mat 12:32 whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one.

Having looked at the above verses, and by using a broader brush stroke to paint a definition of "the unforgiveable sin" I believe this sin can possibly be defined as any of the following acts:
1. Rebellion against Him
2. Having a heart that turns away from the Lord
3. forsaking the Lord
4. Acts of defiance against Him
5. Evil Speaking against Him

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 11th 2007, 01:58 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with this alethos:


From this study it appears to me that "the unforgiveable sin" has a broader definition than what we have previously given it. I believe we have been defining it too narrowly in the past for whatever reasons.

Shalom,
Tanja

RogerW
Dec 11th 2007, 02:22 PM
I had a general feeling for the definition of the word "blasphemy" and I decided that since blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unforgiveable sin, it might behoove me to make absolutely certain I knew exactly what it is. So I looked it up at Dictionary.com

and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because as long as a sinner The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
really struck me, since there are televangelists claiming equality with God, claiming that we ARE Gods and equal to God.

Greetings Hootinannie,

What I find interesting in Scripture is that the Lord says ALL blasphemy will be forgiven except one particular form of blasphemy, which we agree is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mr 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mr 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Even Paul called himself a blasphemer, but says he was shown mercy because he did it in ignorance and unbelief.

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

It seems the particular blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that will never be forgiven in this world or the world to come was specifically speaking to those pharisee's, who claimed the miracles Christ did came from the power of the devil and were not from God. This was not a sin committed in ignorance because the pharisee's knew Who Christ was, and Who had sent Him. The pharisee's were jealous because so many people were following Christ, so they deliberately tried to deceive the masses into believing that Christ's power was something to fear, rather than from God.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

I suppose it could be those who claim for themselves the attributes of God, but I wonder whether this specific blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, that is knowing Who the Lord is, and Who sent Him, and telling others the power of God comes from the devil is a sin that could only be committed by those living in the time when Christ was here bodily? Accusing Christ of working miracles in the power of the devil could only be committed by those who were present to witness the miracles done by Christ as He walked on this earth. But, then again, I suppose it possible that those living today, claiming to themselves the powers of God, could be doing so to make a name for themselves, and to reap financial gain knowingly. I suppose there are pharisee's in every generation. Those who would rather show themselves to be as God, but who are under the power of satan, and think themselves able to do the works of God rather than admit that all the power is of God alone.

Many Blessings,
RW

AlainaJ
Dec 11th 2007, 04:45 PM
This one:

The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.really struck me, since there are televangelists claiming equality with God, claiming that we ARE Gods and equal to God.[/quote]
I have thought about this too.......I always have thought blasphemy was attributing the works of God to someone else. And if the works are not attributed to God, then they are being attributed to the devil.....:hmm:

So, in essence you are denying the truth of God and Jesus Christ....

One more thought...the way to hell is not beleiving Jesus is the Son of God..that is what it is all about rejecting Jesus Christ and choosing the world of Satan.

hootinannie
Dec 11th 2007, 05:06 PM
I think most of us will agree that there is only one unforgiveable sin, and it is committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Therefore I looked through my Bible to find mention of occassions where it was stated in writting that a person or group of persons would not be forgiven for certain acts. From this study it appears to me that "the unforgiveable sin" has a broader definition than what we have previously given it. I believe we have been defining it too narrowly in the past for whatever reasons.

This will be my attempt to define what acts may be included in the unforgiveable sin, based soley on what I see in the Bible

1. Acts of rebellion against Him receive no forgiveness

Exo 23:21 Be on guard before Him, and listen to His voice. Do not be rebellious against Him, for He will not forgive your transgressions; for My name is in Him.

Lam 3:42 We have transgressed and rebelled; You, You have not forgiven.

2. Those whose heart turns away from the Lord receive no forgiveness

Deut 29:18 that there not be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turns away today from Jehovah our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you today a root that bears gall and wormwood;
Deut 29:19 and it happens when he hears the words of this curse, that he should bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart, to snatch away the drunken with the thirsty.
Deut 29:20 Jehovah will not be willing to forgive him, for then Jehovah's anger and His zeal shall smoke, and His zeal shall be against that man, and all the curses written in this book shall lie upon him. And Jehovah shall blot out his name from under the heavens.

3. Those who forsake the Lord receive no forgiveness

Josh 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve Jehovah; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgression nor your sins.
Josh 24:20 If ye forsake Jehovah, and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you evil, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

4. Acting defiantly means a person retains his guilt (iniquity) and in his being completely cut off

Num 15:30 But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that person shall utterly be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him.

5. Speaking against the Holy Spirit is an act which receives no forgiveness.

Mat 12:32 whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one.

Having looked at the above verses, and by using a broader brush stroke to paint a definition of "the unforgiveable sin" I believe this sin can possibly be defined as any of the following acts:
1. Rebellion against Him
2. Having a heart that turns away from the Lord
3. forsaking the Lord
4. Acts of defiance against Him
5. Evil Speaking against Him

Two things strike me here. All of the verses you gave except for the last one are old testament verses. When Jesus came, He provided forgiveness for all sin EXCEPT blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

When you are quoting scripture, please keep it in context. The verse immediately prior to Matt. 12:32, (Jesus is speaking here) which you quoted, says this:

Matt. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Hoot

PS...sorry Roger...you made that point well. I'm in a rush this morning and replied to alethos post before I saw yours.

alethos
Dec 11th 2007, 07:36 PM
Two things strike me here. All of the verses you gave except for the last one are old testament verses. When Jesus came, He provided forgiveness for all sin EXCEPT blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

When you are quoting scripture, please keep it in context. The verse immediately prior to Matt. 12:32, (Jesus is speaking here) which you quoted, says this:

Matt. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Hoot



So when God says in the OT verses which I provided there is no forgiveness, He didn't really mean there was no forgiveness.

hootinannie
Dec 11th 2007, 10:21 PM
So when God says in the OT verses which I provided there is no forgiveness, He didn't really mean there was no forgiveness.

Maybe under the law there wasn't, but was Jesus God in the flesh or wasn't He? HE said "ALL MANNER OF SIN AND BLASPHEMY shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. " So I guess the question is "did Emmanuel (God with us) lie? If yes, then he is not God, if He is God, the answer is NO.

The Bible says "let God be true and every man a liar" So, since Jesus said it, He's either God or He's not. If He is the TRUTH, then He did not lie.

Hoot

alethos
Dec 12th 2007, 01:08 AM
Maybe under the law there wasn't, but was Jesus God in the flesh or wasn't He? HE said "ALL MANNER OF SIN AND BLASPHEMY shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. " So I guess the question is "did Emmanuel (God with us) lie? If yes, then he is not God, if He is God, the answer is NO.

The Bible says "let God be true and every man a liar" So, since Jesus said it, He's either God or He's not. If He is the TRUTH, then He did not lie.

Hoot

God said there was no forgiveness for those acts. You state there is. Who we gonna believe? Does the NT negate the OT. Can we just go to the NT and eliiminate whatever we want from the old. Do we have two different God's one of the OT and one of the NT? Scripture is clear that God doesn't change (Mal 3:6 For I, Jehovah, change not). We find the same thing concerning Christ who is God in the NT. Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. The things which were written in the OT was written for those of us who believe today are intended to be examples for us. Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning. Again those things that were written in the OT was written down to provide us examples, so we don't make the same mistakes those in the OT did. 1 Cor 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Believer's today need both Testaments. We need an entire Bible, not a part of a Bible. Jesus quoted from the OT. The apostles didn't have the New Testament. They used the OT, and so should we, along with the NT.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 12th 2007, 01:39 AM
God said there was no forgiveness for those acts. You state there is. Who we gonna believe? Does the NT negate the OT. Can we just go to the NT and eliiminate whatever we want from the old. Do we have two different God's one of the OT and one of the NT? Scripture is clear that God doesn't change (Mal 3:6 For I, Jehovah, change not). We find the same thing concerning Christ who is God in the NT. Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. The things which were written in the OT was written for those of us who believe today are intended to be examples for us. Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning. Again those things that were written in the OT was written down to provide us examples, so we don't make the same mistakes those in the OT did. 1 Cor 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Believer's today need both Testaments. We need an entire Bible, not a part of a Bible. Jesus quoted from the OT. The apostles didn't have the New Testament. They used the OT, and so should we, along with the NT.

Jesus said that this peculiar blasphemy would not be forgiven in this age, nor in the age to come. This would indicate that there would be forgiveness in the age to come, that was not forgiven in that age. The thief on the cross that was forgiven, still suffered the wages of his sin.
Those who transgressed in the OT, were clearly punished in that age, for their transgressions according to the demands of the law.
Would a just God, punish a man twice for the same offence?

hootinannie
Dec 12th 2007, 07:36 AM
God said there was no forgiveness for those acts. You state there is. Who we gonna believe? Does the NT negate the OT. Can we just go to the NT and eliiminate whatever we want from the old. Do we have two different God's one of the OT and one of the NT? Scripture is clear that God doesn't change (Mal 3:6 For I, Jehovah, change not). We find the same thing concerning Christ who is God in the NT. Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. The things which were written in the OT was written for those of us who believe today are intended to be examples for us. Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning. Again those things that were written in the OT was written down to provide us examples, so we don't make the same mistakes those in the OT did. 1 Cor 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Believer's today need both Testaments. We need an entire Bible, not a part of a Bible. Jesus quoted from the OT. The apostles didn't have the New Testament. They used the OT, and so should we, along with the NT.

No...I'M not stating there is forgiveness for all sins and blasphemy except for that against the Holy Spirit. JESUS said that!! So who are you going to believe??? IS JESUS GOD or isn't He? Did He mean what He said? Jesus was the sacrifice for ALL our sin and blasphemy except that against the Holy Spirit. Jesus said I say unto you...He wasn't just quoting some old testament scripture. HE (GOD) said that all manner of sin...etc.. So you must decide whether you're going to believe the words out of Jesus's mouth...He, who IS the TRUTH...Jesus didn't just say He spoke the truth...He said, "I AM the way, the TRUTH, and the life." Maybe we don't understand why some scriptures are put the way they are put, but to say that Jesus didn't mean what He said, or that what He said isn't true is nothing short of calling God a liar. Lying is sin, and Jesus never lied....so if He said "all manner of sin and blasphemy can be forgiven except that against the Holy Spirit, then that's the way it is. The Bible also says, "Let God be true and every man a liar". If Jesus is God, then ALL manner of sin and blasphemy can be forgiven man except for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". Jesus did bring about some NEW things in the new testament....the old testament had all the law...Jesus said, "A NEW commandment I give unto you." Since Jesus was God, He could give new instructions. I just did a study on the Two Covenants. So many people don't realize what a covenant is. It's a contract...a legally binding contract. Whenever a new contract is made, the old one is superceded. It's like a legal will (which is what testament means)...a new will supercedes the old one and the old one is no longer legally binding. God's hatred for sin never changes, but one can't say that God never changes His mind....look at Ninevah. God was determined to destroy Ninevah, but when Jonah finally went there and warned them to repent, they did..and God changed His mind about destroying the people of Ninevah. In the old testament, God required the death penalty by stoning for those taken in adultery. But in the NEW testament, Jesus said to the woman taken in the act of adultery, "Neither do I condemn thee...go and sin no more" I guess God can forgive anyone He wants to for anything He wants to.

In the world of business, if a contract between two parties isn't working to accomplish the desired end, the parties draw up a new contract. If one party decides to operate on the basis of the old contract or even try to incorporate the terms of the old contract into the new one, he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on, because the courts will not even recognize the old contract. The new one has made the old one invalid. Now that doesn't mean that there was nothing good in the old contract, but the new contract (or will, or "testament") supercedes the old one.

BranchoftheVine
Dec 12th 2007, 08:19 AM
I agree with RogerW's response (although I have to look closer at the thoughts in his last paragraph). The context of the verses on the "Unforgivable Sin" fit the explanation that RogerW gave, as that is what most Biblical commentaries say.

It is a very sensitive subject. Some theologians say it is refusing to believe Jesus is the Son of God. Many theologians say that if one is concerned they have done it, then that means they haven't, as they would be so hardened in sin they wouldn't care. Many say it is a very rare sin. If one is shaken up, feeling like they have committed it, I don't feel we should ever reinforce their fear. Instead, I feel we should encourage them in the Lord, and let the Lord sort stuff like that out.

There are many forms of blasphemy, but only one type of unforgivable blasphemy. In a NT book, I read that two men were thrown out to be taught not to blaspheme.

Alethos: I respect the OT research you did, but how do you accomodate, in your current view, all the OT verses on Isreal's backslidings, their repentance, and the Lord's pardon and mercy on them? Furthermore, "rebellion" is really any period of habitual sin in a Christian's life. Does that mean that any Christian that has fallen into viewing pornography (for a season) is not forgiven? If you're married, what if your spouse fell into something like that? Are you going to give them the law, the ministry of condemnation, and tell them that it is too late for them? On the subject of rebellion, how do you account for the NT parable of the "prodigal son" or the "lost sheep?" What about the immoral man that was expelled, so that his flesh destroyed, and his spirit saved on the Day of the Lord? How was the Lord willing to forgive even Jezebel in Revelation chapter 2?

With love in my tone, I want to conclude: We have to balance all of Scripture, before coming to a final conclusion on the Lord's forgiveness. I feel a view like that is unbalanced, and can be dangerous. With that view, an imperfect sinner (like us all), could easily make another sinner feel hopeless and condemned, when all that sinner would have to do is ask the Lord to cleanse them from all unrighteousness, with a true sorry heart. That is how we sinners handle other sinners under a gracious and forgiving Lord. He is the One who gave His priceless and precious blood to atone for sin, and save sinners -- not us.

hootinannie
Dec 12th 2007, 08:54 AM
Having looked at the above verses, and by using a broader brush stroke to paint a definition of "the unforgiveable sin" I believe this sin can possibly be defined as any of the following acts:
1. Rebellion against Him
2. Having a heart that turns away from the Lord
3. forsaking the Lord
4. Acts of defiance against Him
5. Evil Speaking against Him

If this were true, then NONE of us could ever be forgiven. I have been guilty of every single one of those except blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and yet God has forgiven me.

When I turned my back on God, I deliberately, knowing exactly what I was doing, rebelled against Him. My heart turned TOTALLY against the Lord and I was determined to hate Him as much as I had ever loved Him. I completely forsook Him and regularly committed deliberate acts of defiance against Him. I even spoke evil of God and Jesus, although I never spoke evil of the Holy Spirit, and when the demons I was deeply involved with tried to get me to curse the Holy Spirit, I refused. And they left me. That was the first time I realized that I could say "NO" to the enemy and there was NOTHING he could do about it. But here I am today, loving Jesus with all my heart, loving my Abba with all my heart, loving the Holy Spirit with all my heart, and I stand PROOF that God forgives those things you listed as being unforgiveable.

Hoot

Partaker of Christ
Dec 12th 2007, 11:30 AM
If this were true, then NONE of us could ever be forgiven. I have been guilty of every single one of those except blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and yet God has forgiven me.

When I turned my back on God, I deliberately, knowing exactly what I was doing, rebelled against Him. My heart turned TOTALLY against the Lord and I was determined to hate Him as much as I had ever loved Him. I completely forsook Him and regularly committed deliberate acts of defiance against Him. I even spoke evil of God and Jesus, although I never spoke evil of the Holy Spirit, and when the demons I was deeply involved with tried to get me to curse the Holy Spirit, I refused. And they left me. That was the first time I realized that I could say "NO" to the enemy and there was NOTHING he could do about it. But here I am today, loving Jesus with all my heart, loving my Abba with all my heart, loving the Holy Spirit with all my heart, and I stand PROOF that God forgives those things you listed as being unforgiveable.

Hoot

Amen Hoot!
I strongly believe that God allows for us to experience His Truth, and then it is Truth that we know. It is not just some intellectual knowledge of Truth, but a knowing.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Dec 12th 2007, 11:31 AM
Jesus said that He came to make a new covenant.

In the OT, we had no savior, no path of forgiveness for God to accept in lieu of our outright, blatant sin. Thus, in the OT, blasphemy (the outright denial of following God) was unforgivable. There was no intercessor, it was God > man.

When Jesus descended from heaven and humbled Himself to be exactly like us, when He shed His blood in remission for our sins, the new covenant was created. One of the addendums Jesus signed into our "new" contract was that sins that were once unforgivable were now forgivable, because He sacrificed Himself to atone for those sins if we agree with Him.

So now we have God > Jesus > man (that is NOT a "greater than" sign, it is a lineage of communication). God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same God. But we talk to Jesus via the Holy Spirit, and Jesus then talks to God on our behalf. Rather than just not answer the phone anymore because He's mad, He gave us a new phone number to use for contact to work out our sin.

Hence, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shuts off our communication with Christ. Which, naturally, means that Christ is not intercession in our life for our sins against God by our own, cognitive decision. So, blasphemy is simply insulting the communication by shutting it down, denying Christ, telling God that you don't need forgiveness. He cannot (or will not) forgive the unrepentant, those who deny Christ's sacrifice.

That's the way I see it, brothers and sisters. It's not that the OT doesn't apply to us anymore, it's just that now Christ will intervene to forgive anything EXCEPT denying Him and going to the grave. Blasphemy is denial of Christ's intervention, thus denial of God's forgiveness - He can't forgive that, can He? He gave us free will to accept or deny, and it remains our free will.

Feel free to pick apart my understanding.

alethos
Dec 12th 2007, 12:33 PM
If this were true, then NONE of us could ever be forgiven. I have been guilty of every single one of those except blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and yet God has forgiven me.

When I turned my back on God, I deliberately, knowing exactly what I was doing, rebelled against Him. My heart turned TOTALLY against the Lord and I was determined to hate Him as much as I had ever loved Him. I completely forsook Him and regularly committed deliberate acts of defiance against Him. I even spoke evil of God and Jesus, although I never spoke evil of the Holy Spirit, and when the demons I was deeply involved with tried to get me to curse the Holy Spirit, I refused. And they left me. That was the first time I realized that I could say "NO" to the enemy and there was NOTHING he could do about it. But here I am today, loving Jesus with all my heart, loving my Abba with all my heart, loving the Holy Spirit with all my heart, and I stand PROOF that God forgives those things you listed as being unforgiveable.

Hoot

The problem with this discussion, is in how the unforgivable sin is defined. Once again, since God doesn't change Mal 3:6 and Heb 13:8, our disagreement must come from not having a full understanding of exactly what it means to commit this one unforgiveable sin. Since God has said He doesn't change, and since He mentioned acts which receive no forgiveness, we need to believe what God says and listen. We can't take a single verse out of the NT and then claim it does away with what this very same God had said in the OT. The OT was written for our learning, instruction, and admonition (Rom. 15:4; 1 Cor 10:6,11) In my honest opinion, your definition of the unforgiveable sin is too narrowly defined so as not to include a full and proper definition.

"The sin against the Holy Spirit is therefore not a specific sin limited to any form or circumstance, but ANY SIN that destroys the spiritual life. It is the sin that "quenches the Holy Spirit" (Coffman Commentaries on Mark 3:27-29)

Go in Peace
alethos

A820djd
Dec 12th 2007, 05:33 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with this alethos:



Shalom,
Tanja



Don't be so sure it's so "broad" maybe before Jesus was born it was, but who are we to say it's broader or more narrow in the first place? If you think about it, God gave his son for us cause he knows we'd disobey him. To say as a Christian that we follow Gods every single rule, would be a lie... No matter how great of a Christian you think you are, you are still human, you still make mistakes, God knows this, he forgives us. IMO Jesus Christ is the only real way we're going to get in heaven. Repenting isn't 100% in getting into heaven. You cannot say to anyone in this world that after you repent that you will never ever lie again, because you don't know the future so how could you say? You couldn't... Basically you guys are taking Gods word and bending it to sound like he's crashing down on us... Just follow his word, do the best you can, give thanks to Jesus, repent (try to), ask forgiveness be sincere about it, get baptized? (why not?), save others, take a shower and repeat several more times. lol But seriously, you know what to do, don't listen to the downers some Christians are, because if you're going by this "broader" range theory, then 99% of everyone ever is probably in hell right now and the others will follow. That doesn't seem to realistic for God who gave us his SON for US! Because he knew we're not the most intelligent things in the world... So, thats my humble opinion. :) All glory to big guns upstairs. :)

The_Forgotten_One
Dec 12th 2007, 10:45 PM
I think most of us will agree that there is only one unforgiveable sin, and it is committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Therefore I looked through my Bible to find mention of occassions where it was stated in writting that a person or group of persons would not be forgiven for certain acts. From this study it appears to me that "the unforgiveable sin" has a broader definition than what we have previously given it. I believe we have been defining it too narrowly in the past for whatever reasons.

This will be my attempt to define what acts may be included in the unforgiveable sin, based soley on what I see in the Bible

1. Acts of rebellion against Him receive no forgiveness

Exo 23:21 Be on guard before Him, and listen to His voice. Do not be rebellious against Him, for He will not forgive your transgressions; for My name is in Him.

Lam 3:42 We have transgressed and rebelled; You, You have not forgiven.

2. Those whose heart turns away from the Lord receive no forgiveness

Deut 29:18 that there not be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turns away today from Jehovah our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you today a root that bears gall and wormwood;
Deut 29:19 and it happens when he hears the words of this curse, that he should bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart, to snatch away the drunken with the thirsty.
Deut 29:20 Jehovah will not be willing to forgive him, for then Jehovah's anger and His zeal shall smoke, and His zeal shall be against that man, and all the curses written in this book shall lie upon him. And Jehovah shall blot out his name from under the heavens.

3. Those who forsake the Lord receive no forgiveness

Josh 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve Jehovah; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgression nor your sins.
Josh 24:20 If ye forsake Jehovah, and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you evil, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

4. Acting defiantly means a person retains his guilt (iniquity) and in his being completely cut off

Num 15:30 But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that person shall utterly be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him.

5. Speaking against the Holy Spirit is an act which receives no forgiveness.

Mat 12:32 whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one.

Having looked at the above verses, and by using a broader brush stroke to paint a definition of "the unforgiveable sin" I believe this sin can possibly be defined as any of the following acts:
1. Rebellion against Him
2. Having a heart that turns away from the Lord
3. forsaking the Lord
4. Acts of defiance against Him
5. Evil Speaking against Him


That was definitely thorough…:cool:

Sincerely,
The Forgotten One

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 10:50 PM
My understanding has always been that there is only one sin that is unforgivable and that is rejecting the witness of the Holy Spirit to repent, die to self, receive His gift of grace, and be born again a new creation.

There is no second chance on the other side. There is no other sin that will is unforgivable.

Based on some of the definitions I have heard - speaking against what is Holy and calling it evil - then Paul would have committed it.

alethos
Dec 12th 2007, 11:24 PM
Based on some of the definitions I have heard - speaking against what is Holy and calling it evil - then Paul would have committed it.

Before his being saved or after?

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 11:33 PM
Before his being saved or after?

Paul persecuted Christians - including being present when Stephen was stoned. That is about as heavy as it gets in calling what is holy - something that is evil.

So - it was when he was still Saul.


If it is an unforgivable sin - it wouldn't really matter when it occurred would it?

I have done extensive study on the 'unforgivable sin' and there is only one - denying the gift of grace and dying without being born again.

If there were any other - then there would be two unforgivable sins.
So as long as a person is still alive - they have not committed it.

brakelite
Dec 12th 2007, 11:51 PM
My friend, until I became a Christian at age 24, I was guilty of every one of those sins you described above. Now that I have received Christ and His atonement, I have and am completely and utterly forgiven.
Jesus Himself said that all sins shall be forgiven, except blasphemy against the HOly Spirit. Until I accepted Jesus' sacrifice on my behalf, I was resisting the Holy Spirit, and in doing so was commiting the unpardonable sin if I had consistently and persistently resisted until such a time as the Holy Spirit ceases to convict. (My Spirit shall not always strive with man).
However by submitting to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and confessing my guilt and repenting, I was able to be forgiven.
Hoot's explanation of blasphemy as given in Eatons dictionary is spot on. If we stubbornly resist the Holy Spirit how can we be saved?

Two examples of taking upon ourselves the prerogatives of God and commiting
blasphemy are given in the gospels. The first in Mark 2:7. Taking upon oneself the power to forgive sin. The second is John 10:33. Claiming to be God or equal to Him.

Interestingly, Lucifer fell for aspiring to the second. Now, Satan still has the same ambition. He can't walk into the local church obviously and say "hi! My name is Satan, worship me!" He knows that will not work, so he needs a frontman through whom he will be worshipped by proxy. Hence the following warning from Paul:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

At the risk of being sent to E.T., I would mention that the Christian church is the temple of God. So dont look to Israel for the antichrist. Look around you.

Regards Brakelite.

Isaac-Saxon
Dec 13th 2007, 12:36 AM
I had a general feeling for the definition of the word "blasphemy" and I decided that since blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin, it might behoove me to make absolutely certain I knew exactly what it is. So I looked it up at Dictionary.com

blas·phe·my http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png /ˈblæshttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngfəhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngmi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[blas-fuh-mee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -mies. 1.impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things. 2.Judaism. a.an act of cursing or reviling God. b.pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai. 3.Theology. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God. 4.irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.
[Origin: 1175–1225; ME blasphemie < LL blasphémia < Gk. See blasphemous (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=blasphemous), -y (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-y)3http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png]

—Synonyms 1. profanity, cursing, swearing; sacrilege, impiety.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.American Heritage Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html) - blas·phe·my (blās'fə-mē)
n. pl. blas·phe·mies

<LI minmax_bound="true">
<LI minmax_bound="true">A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct.[Middle English blasfemie, from Late Latin blasphēmia, from Greek blasphēmiā, from blasphēmein, to blaspheme; see blaspheme.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.Online Etymology Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/etymon.html)
blasphemy

c.1225, from O.Fr. blasfemie, from L.L. blasphemia, from Gk. blasphemia "profane, speech, slander," from blasphemein "to speak evil of." Second element is pheme "utterance" (see fame (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fame)); first element uncertain, perhaps related to blaptikos "hurtful," though blax "slack (in body and mind), stupid" has also been suggested.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas HarperWordNet (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/wn.html) - blasphemy
noun1. blasphemous language (expressing disrespect for God or for something sacred) 2. blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character; "desecration of the Holy Sabbath" [syn: profanation (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profanation)]
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/mwlaw.html)
Main Entry: blas·phe·my
Pronunciation: 'blas-f&-mE
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -mies
: the crime of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God or a religion and its doctrines and writings and esp. God as perceived by Christianity and Christian doctrines and writings —see also Amendment I to the CONSTITUTION (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=mwlaw&q=constitution) in the back matter
NOTE: In many states, blasphemy statutes have been repealed as contrary to the First Amendment.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/00-database-info?db=easton)
Blasphemy
In the sense of speaking evil of God this word is found in Ps. 74:18; Isa. 52:5; Rom. 2:24; Rev. 13:1, 6; 16:9, 11, 21. It denotes also any kind of calumny, or evil-speaking, or abuse (1 Kings 21:10; Acts 13:45; 18:6, etc.). Our Lord was accused of blasphemy when he claimed to be the Son of God (Matt. 26:65; comp. Matt. 9:3; Mark 2:7). They who deny his Messiahship blaspheme Jesus (Luke 22:65; John 10:36). Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28, 29; Luke 12:10) is regarded by some as a continued and obstinate rejection of the gospel, and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because as long as a sinner remains in unbelief he voluntarily excludes himself from pardon. Others regard the expression as designating the sin of attributing to the power of Satan those miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Spirit's agency.
Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary


This one:

The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.really struck me, since there are televangelists claiming equality with God, claiming that we ARE Gods and equal to God.

The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.I could not agree more good post. All to often in this day and age we see different types of Anti Christ. It is good to understand what it means to blasphemy our Father. In the end Christ will stamp out all Anti Christ that blasphemy His name both large and small.

alethos
Dec 13th 2007, 02:33 AM
If it is an unforgivable sin - it wouldn't really matter when it occurred would it?

I don't know.


I have done extensive study on the 'unforgivable sin' and there is only one - denying the gift of grace and dying without being born again.

If there were any other - then there would be two unforgivable sins.
So as long as a person is still alive - they have not committed it.

The following will require careful reading to understand what I am attempting to say.

I agree, there is only one unforgiveable sin. However I believe under the umbrella of the unforgiveable sin lies a broad defintion of acts that fit that title. Even so those acts are not more than one sin, but rather various sins, which all come under the umbrella of what is called the unforgiveable sin.

Mograce2U
Dec 13th 2007, 03:40 AM
John seems especially good at giving us a summary of the the promise we have by the power of the Spirit:

(1 John 2:21-27 KJV) I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. {22} Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. {23} Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. {24} Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. {25} And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. {26} These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. {27} But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Paul is a bit more difficult but seems clear about the role of the Holy Spirit:

(Rom 1:1-6 KJV) Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, {2} (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) {3} Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; {4} And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: {5} By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: {6} Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

(Rom 4:16 KJV) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

(Rom 15:8-13 KJV) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: {9} And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. {10} And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. {11} And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. {12} And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. {13} Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

(2 Cor 1:21-22 KJV) Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; {22} Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

(Gal 3:13-14 KJV) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: {14} That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

(Gal 3:22 KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

(Eph 1:10-14 KJV) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: {11} In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: {12} That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. {13} In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, {14} Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

(Heb 11:39-40 KJV) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: {40} God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

(John 15:26 KJV) But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

(John 16:8-11 KJV) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: {9} Of sin, because they believe not on me; {10} Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; {11} Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

It would seem that if one rejects the Holy Spirit, they reject the promise of eternal life. Because now that Jesus has ascended, the Holy Spirit is the One in the earth who testifies that He is the Christ and the giver of Life. To contribute this good witness to the devil is to forsake any hope of salvation, since grace comes thru faith by His power. To say such power is demonic is to blasphemy God and thereby forsake the forgiveness He brings and all hope in being resurrected.

(Acts 4:12 KJV) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

brakelite
Dec 13th 2007, 09:01 PM
Maybe under the law there wasn't, but was Jesus God in the flesh or wasn't He? HE said "ALL MANNER OF SIN AND BLASPHEMY shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. " So I guess the question is "did Emmanuel (God with us) lie? If yes, then he is not God, if He is God, the answer is NO.

The Bible says "let God be true and every man a liar" So, since Jesus said it, He's either God or He's not. If He is the TRUTH, then He did not lie.

Hoot

Stephen, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, being a prophet exposed the sin of those who accused him of teaching contrary to Moses. He turned their accusation around and stated clearly that it was they, and not him, who was guilty.

Acts 7:51 ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

They then confirmed their true nature by stoning even him, blocking their ears so they could hear no more. Little wonder that Jesus said "Your house is left unto you desolate."

Brakelite

BranchoftheVine
Dec 13th 2007, 11:25 PM
Ok, I'm reading in a Holman Bible dictionary, and it points out that blasphemy means to "speak harm." It points out that in the OT, blasphemy is defined in the Hebrews terms in Leviticus 24:14-16. In the OT, the offense was a "capital crime" and was punished by stoning (along with adulterers, ect.). In the NT, the term is broadened to include attitudes in action and speech (1 Tim 1:13, 1 Peter 4:4, Revelation 2:9) and ignorant or willful persecution against Christ and His Church. That is why Paul was called a "blasphemer" (in ignorance). Yet, in the Lord's grace and mercy, he was a chosen vessel to take the Gospel message to the Gentiles. The dictionary also covers the "unforgivable sin" and defines it as a state of hardness in which one consciencely and willfully resists God's saving power and grace.

Alethos: I understand what you are saying. But, you are pulling a handful of verses out of the OT, in a period of time when the Hebrews were under the strict "Mosaic Laws", and using those few verses to override all the the OT and NT verses that show His willingness to forgive transgression, disobedience, and rebellion. Out of many to choose from, here are just two quick OT verses: Ezekiel 18:30-31 and Ezekiel 18:26-28. You also cannot ignore the NT parables of the "prodigal" and "lost sheep" in convenience of your points. By balancing ALL of Scripture, one cannot help but see that genuine repentance is man's responsibility, but also an act of mercy on a life from God.

I mean, if you had kids, what if one of your sons/daughters became a "prodigal?" Would your views suddenly change? I just think you really need to examine all of Scripture, and think about all the many life scenerios that could occur, before you solidify that view. And, if that view doesn't change, I would be careful with it. Can you imagine standing before the Judge (Jesus Christ) someday, just a sinner saved by His grace, and you were responsible in making other sinners feel unworthy of His forgiveness?

HootinAnnie: Your testimony really shows the absolute grace and rock-solid love of God. It makes me think about how if a child became rebellious and angry at their parents, and took off, shaking their fist at them and saying mean things in anger, how most parents would forgive and take back that child -- if they made a U-turn and were really sorry towards them. Compared to humans, His creation, how much more is the love of God?

alethos
Dec 14th 2007, 02:54 AM
Alethos: I understand what you are saying. But, you are pulling a handful of verses out of the OT, in a period of time when the Hebrews were under the strict "Mosaic Laws", and using those few verses to override all the the OT and NT verses that show His willingness to forgive transgression, disobedience, and rebellion. Out of many to choose from, here are just two quick OT verses: Ezekiel 18:30-31 and Ezekiel 18:26-28. You also cannot ignore the NT parables of the "prodigal" and "lost sheep" in convenience of your points. By balancing ALL of Scripture, one cannot help but see that genuine repentance is man's responsibility, but also an act of mercy on a life from God.

I just think you really need to examine all of Scripture,

First let me post a simple, all encompassing definition of the unforgiveable sin according to this statement I found in Coffman's Commentaries.
"The sin against the Holy Spirit is therefore not a specific sin limited to any form or circumstance, but ANY SIN that destroys the spiritual life."

Now lets take a closer look at some of those verses you posted by highlighting a few things in those verses;

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it; for in his iniquity that he hath committed he will die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

From the above text it appears that God tells those who are righteous, that when they turn from their righteousness and sin, they will die. But yet that is not God's desire, because the verses also plainly say that God doesn't take pleasure in their death.

The same thing that is said in the Ezek 18 passages is also found in the following verses
Eze 3:20 Again, when a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thy hand.
Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and thou hast delivered thy soul.

In the above verses both mercy as well as death are the options dependant upon whether or not the righteous turn or not.

And we find the same thing later on in Ezek
Eze 33:13 When I say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his righteousness, and commit iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in his iniquity that he hath committed, therein shall he die.

I haven't ignored any part of the Bible. In fact I am the first one in this thread to open the discussion to both the Old as well as the New Testament. Others have wanted to ignore what is said in the Old Testament about unforgiveable sin. We need to consider what God said in both Testaments. God does not change (Mal 3:6; Heb 13:8) I have carefully studied and considered what the entire Bible says about unforgiveable sin.

Mograce2U
Dec 14th 2007, 04:06 AM
Stephen, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, being a prophet exposed the sin of those who accused him of teaching contrary to Moses. He turned their accusation around and stated clearly that it was they, and not him, who was guilty.

Acts 7:51 ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

They then confirmed their true nature by stoning even him, blocking their ears so they could hear no more. Little wonder that Jesus said "Your house is left unto you desolate."

BrakeliteGood Point! Not only had they rejected the Father's witness to them thru the words He spoke & the works Jesus did; and then the Son by crucifying Him; they now rejected the testimony of the Holy Spirit too which was the promise they were waiting for. That left them with nothing, having fully forsaken their God.

hootinannie
Dec 14th 2007, 05:14 AM
You have taken one man's commentary to define it all. A commentary is just that...one man's commentary or comments or opinions on the word of God. What makes you think he is right and other commentators are wrong? Why do you give him and only him such credibility? Have you read others' commentaries on these passages? Some of the most highly respected and revered commentators say something entirely different.


First let me post a simple, all encompassing definition of the unforgiveable sin according to this statement I found in Coffman's Commentaries.
"The sin against the Holy Spirit is therefore not a specific sin limited to any form or circumstance, but ANY SIN that destroys the spiritual life."

Let's look at some other dictionary definitions, topical references and commentaries.

NT:987
blasphemeo (blas-fay-meh'-o); from NT:989; to vilify; specially, to speak impiously:

KJV - (speak) blaspheme (-er, -mously, -my), defame, rail on, revile, speak evil.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

VILIFY

1450, "to lower in worth or value," from L.L. vilificare "to make cheap or base," from L. vilis "cheap, base" (see vile (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vile)) + root of facere "to make" (see factitious (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/factitious)). Meaning "to slander, speak evil of" is first recorded 1598


Blasphemy

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt 12:31,32; Mark 3:28,29; Luke 12:10) is regarded by some as a continued and obstinate rejection of the gospel, and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because as long as a sinner remains in unbelief he voluntarily excludes himself from pardon. Others regard the expression as designating the sin of attributing to the power of Satan those miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Spirit's agency.
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

BLASPHEMY

Literally a "railing accusation" against anyone (Jude 9). "Evil speaking" is probably meant by it in Col 3:8. But it is more often used in the sense of any speech directly dishonoring God (1 Kings 21:10; 2 Sam 12:14; Ps 74:18; Isa 52:5; Rom 2:24). Stoning was the penalty, as upon the son of Shelomith, a woman of Dan, and of an Egyptian father (Lev 24:11); Stephen was so treated by a sudden outbreak of Jewish zeal (Acts 7:57-60). The Savior would have been stoned for the blasphemy alleged as the ground of His condemnation (Matt 26:65; Luke 5:21; John 10:36); but the Romans, to whom He was delivered, used crucifixion. So the fulfillment of the prophecy (contrary to what might have been expected, seeing that crucifixion was not a Jewish punishment) was brought about, "they pierced My hands and My feet" (Ps 22:16; compare John 18:31-32; 19:6-7). The Jews, in spite of themselves, fulfilled the prophecies to the letter (John 11:50-52). The hearer of the blasphemy rent his garment, which might never be mended, and laid his hand, putting the guilt wholly, on the offender's head.

The Jews, because of Lev 24:16, superstitiously shrank from even naming Jehovah. In Ex 22:28, "thou shalt not curse the gods" ('ªlohim) refers to disrespectful language toward magistrates. From Ex 23:13, "make no mention of the name of other gods," they thought themselves bound to turn the idols' names into nicknames, as Baal into Bosheth, Beth-aven for Beth-el, Beel-zebul for Beel-zebub.

When the Jewish rulers, who had such numerous proofs of Jesus' Messiahship, shut their hearts against conviction, and at last stifled conscience and the light so utterly as to attribute His miracles of love, as the casting out of unclean spirits, to the help of the prince of demons, Christ pronounced that they were either committing or on the verge of committing the sin against the Holy Spirit which is forgiven neither in this world nor in the world to come, though all sin against the Son of man can be forgiven (Matt 12:31, etc.; Mark 3:28, etc.). None can now commit formally the same sin of attributing Jesus' miracles against Satan's kingdom to Satan's help, so evident a self contradiction that nothing short of a seared conscience, and a hardened determination to resist every spiritual impression and even malign the Spirit's work before other men, could have given birth to such a sin. But a man may commit virtually the same sin by continued malignant resistance of the gracious Spirit in one's own heart, with, at the same time, blasphemous and Satanic misrepresentation of it to others. He who has committed it is so given over to a reprobate mind as to have no pang of conscience about it, and the very fear of anyone that he has committed it is proof positive that he has not, for if he had he would have been "past feeling" (Heb 6:4-6; 1 John 5:16).
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998 by Biblesoft)


HOLY SPIRIT, SIN AGAINST

A sin that is often referred to as the "unpardonable sin" because, in the words of Jesus, "He who blasphemes [speaks evil] against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation" (Mark 3:29).

The context of Jesus' words about the sin against the Holy Spirit provides a clue to its nature. When a demon-possessed man came to Jesus, He was healed. The multitudes were amazed. But the scribes and Pharisees said He was healing through Satan's power (Matt 12:24). Jesus had cast out the demons by the power of the Holy Spirit; His enemies claimed He cast them out by the power of the devil.

Such slander of the Holy Spirit, Jesus implied, reveals a spiritual blindness, a warping and perversion of the moral nature, that puts one beyond hope of repentance, faith, and forgiveness. Those who call the Holy Spirit Satan reveal a spiritual cancer so advanced that they are beyond any hope of healing and forgiveness.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Matt 12:31

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

[All manner of sin and blasphemy] Blaspheemia (NT:988), injurious or impious speaking, or "mocking and deriding speech" in Anglo-Saxon. See Matt 9:3.

Even personal reproaches, revilings, persecutions against Christ, were remissible; but blasphemy, or impious speaking against the Holy Spirit was to have no forgiveness: i.e. when the person obstinately attributed those works to the Devil, which he had the fullest evidence could be performed only by the Spirit of God. That this, and nothing else, is the sin against the Holy Spirit, is evident from the connection in this place, and more particularly from Mark 3:28-30. "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme; but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation; [B]BECAUSE they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Here the matter is made clear beyond the smallest doubt-the unpardonable sin, as some term it, is neither less nor more than ascribing the miracles Christ performed, by the power of God, to the spirit of the Devil. Many sincere people have been grievously troubled with apprehensions that they had committed the unpardonable sin; but let it be observed that no man who believes the divine mission of Jesus Christ ever can commit this sin: therefore let no man's heart fail because of it, from henceforth and forever
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)

Mark 3:22-30

22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
KJV

alethos
Dec 14th 2007, 12:05 PM
You have taken one man's commentary to define it all.

That is totally untrue. I have merely taken the one comment to summarize a basic definition of the unforgiveable sin.


Have you read others' commentaries on these passages?

I have read quite a few, including the ones you potsed, and my summary takes into account what the other commentaries say, as well as what both the Old and New Testament says concerning this subject. On the other hand your posts show a willingness to write off what God said about unforgiveable sin in the OT, and you have basically stated in past replies that where God in the Old Testament says there was no forgiveness, you have attempted to say that God didn't really mean there is no forgiveness, thereby making God out to be a liar. You write off what God said based on a single verse from the New Testament. What you are doing is attempting to build your doctrine based on a single verse of the Bible along with comments from a few commentaries and dictionaries. That is not the proper way to build any doctinal theology. I will remind you once again that the OT was written for our learning, and example, so that we wouldn't make the same mistakes that those who went before us made. Here are those New Testament verses which place a high priority on how New Testament believers should view what God desires to teach us concerning what is contained in the Old Testament. You can't exclude the Old Testament in your theology, Jesus certainly didn't.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime (meaning in the OT)were written for our learning, that through patience and through comfort of the scriptures we might have hope.

These next verses tell us the ways in which those in the wilderness sinned, and these verses clearly state that these Old Testament accounts of the people of God were written down to instruct us so that we don't make the same mistakes they made.

1Co 10:1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;
1Co 10:4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us make trial of the Lord, as some of them made trial, and perished by the serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Lastly, I don't disagree with the comments you posted from dictionaries, and commentaries. In fact the scope of my summarizing definition of the unforgiveable sin is broad enough to include those definitions. On the other hand you're defintion is so narrowly confined that it refuses to take into account verses from the Old Testament where Jehovah spoke on this subject. My Bible has two Testaments, and the New Testament says both were written to teach us. 2 Ti 3:16 All Scripture (not just the NT) is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness. If you only use the New Testament to build your doctrine, then you will be left with half truths.

Mograce2U
Dec 14th 2007, 04:58 PM
A good example is given to us in Exodus when Moses brought the plagues upon Egypt. Pharoah's magicians were able to duplicate the first 3 miracles: turning rods into snakes, water into blood and the plague of frogs. But when it came to making lice out of dust they could not do this (create a life form) and claimed it was the finger of God at work. So we are dealing with sorcery by the power of the devil that tries to pass itself off as the power of "God". Simon the Sorcerer was of this mind (Acts 8). And he was able to deceive the people by the wonders he was able to do. So now we have the scribes doing the exact opposite as they try to convince the people that what they are witnessing Jesus doing is of the devil.

The ability to cast out a deaf and dumb spirit was something the Jewish exorcists were unable to do and it was thought that this would be a particular sign of Messiah. Jesus came with 2 witnesses from His Father - the words of God and the works of God (John 5:31) - which these scribes spoke against at every turn as they tried to discredit His testimony as their Messiah sent by God.

This calling good, evil and evil, good; is what turns people away from knowing the true God - either of which is blaspheme as it concerns the true nature of God - His NAME. These scribes were denying the Lord come to save them and trying to turn the people away from their salvation. There can be no forgiveness for those who do such things - calling Satan "God" and God "Satan", is what they were doing.

BranchoftheVine
Dec 15th 2007, 02:45 AM
Mograce2U: Your description is similar to what many commentaries say, and what HootinAnnie talked about above. Some conclude that it is dieing while rejecting Jesus Christ as Son of God, Lord, and Savior. I'm not fully sure. It's a hard topic.

Alethos: Those Ezekiel 18 verses (I shared with you) show that when a righteous man turns to wickedness, and dies in it, then he dies. However, if a wicked man turns away from wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive -- pleasing the Lord, the One who desires people to turn and live (see Ezekiel 18:32). Furthermore, Ezekiel 18:30-31 shows that He does forgive transgression/rebellion. You can't argue that. Furthermore, in Isaiah 53, it says we all like sheep have gone astray and the Lord laid on Him, the iniquity of us all. So, if you say you've never been guilty of iniquity, then you're making out God to be a liar. The fact is, we all have in some way. And, since you have been guilty, and thus needed His forgiveness, I feel you are not in a place to set boundaries on His forgiveness for others.

You don't seem to address my examples about the "prodigal son" and "lost sheep." Are you aware of those NT verses? And, speaking of those OT Ezekiel verses, do you apply those to a boy that received Jesus when he was 5 years old in a Christian upbringing? So, the boy's only chance to live, and turn from a "wicked man" to "righteous man" was when he was five? And, if that boy ever grew up and messed-up in life, yet repents, he still dies without forgiveness? Yet, other sinful men, "allowed" 40 years of iniquity/sin before they came to Christ, are forgiven and given a "clean slate?" So, that boy was only "allowed" 5 years of sin? (Again, the Bible shows a "prodigal son" scenerio does occur. You can't argue that).

Yes, the Scriptures show that God did not forgive certain OT instances. Nobody is denying that. But, you cannot mesh those OT verses with the "unforgivable sin" in the NT "church age." Remember, Jesus said: "...in this age, and the age to come." He didn't say that sin involved the past, but started in that age with Him, and involved the age to come.

Also, I keep wondering if you're a type of believer that is more "OT-minded" than "NT-minded?" I only ask, because I've met some that seem kind of that way.

Conclusion: Yes, God does not change. When He does change something, He makes it very clear (like the Old and New Covenant). There are plenty of OT and NT verses showing His forgiveness, along with your examples of unforgiveness. Therefore, we can conclude by looking at the entire Word, that He both forgives and doesn't forgive. He has compassion and mercy on whom He wills. In the Scriptures, we can see that His compassion/mercy is evident when a person is drawn to Himself, led to repentance, is unblinded, is set free, and receives remission of sins in His name. There is only one sin that the Bible calls "unforgivable", and it seems rare, and is controversial. So, always pointing people to Christ, we confidently know like us, they can/will be forgiven of their sins when they come to Jesus and are "born again." In addition, From the NT parables of the "prodigal son" and "lost sheep", we do see grace and forgiveness on His own's waywardness. Let's not forget that He is the One who goes and finds the "lost sheep."

brakelite
Dec 15th 2007, 06:00 AM
One thing for sure when considering the unforgiveable sin. If we or anyone has blasphemed the Holy Spirit and are wondering if perhaps we have been guilty of such a thing, the fact that we are concerned is sure proof that we are not guilty.
Brakelite

alethos
Dec 15th 2007, 01:18 PM
Mograce2U: Your description is similar to what many commentaries say, and what HootinAnnie talked about above. Some conclude that it is dieing while rejecting Jesus Christ as Son of God, Lord, and Savior. I'm not fully sure. It's a hard topic.

Alethos: Those Ezekiel 18 verses (I shared with you) show that when a righteous man turns to wickedness, and dies in it, then he dies. However, if a wicked man turns away from wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive -- pleasing the Lord, the One who desires people to turn and live (see Ezekiel 18:32). Furthermore, Ezekiel 18:30-31 shows that He does forgive transgression/rebellion. You can't argue that. Furthermore, in Isaiah 53, it says we all like sheep have gone astray and the Lord laid on Him, the iniquity of us all. So, if you say you've never been guilty of iniquity, then you're making out God to be a liar. The fact is, we all have in some way. And, since you have been guilty, and thus needed His forgiveness, I feel you are not in a place to set boundaries on His forgiveness for others.

You don't seem to address my examples about the "prodigal son" and "lost sheep." Are you aware of those NT verses? And, speaking of those OT Ezekiel verses, do you apply those to a boy that received Jesus when he was 5 years old in a Christian upbringing? So, the boy's only chance to live, and turn from a "wicked man" to "righteous man" was when he was five? And, if that boy ever grew up and messed-up in life, yet repents, he still dies without forgiveness? Yet, other sinful men, "allowed" 40 years of iniquity/sin before they came to Christ, are forgiven and given a "clean slate?" So, that boy was only "allowed" 5 years of sin? (Again, the Bible shows a "prodigal son" scenerio does occur. You can't argue that).

Yes, the Scriptures show that God did not forgive certain OT instances. Nobody is denying that. But, you cannot mesh those OT verses with the "unforgivable sin" in the NT "church age." Remember, Jesus said: "...in this age, and the age to come." He didn't say that sin involved the past, but started in that age with Him, and involved the age to come.

Also, I keep wondering if you're a type of believer that is more "OT-minded" than "NT-minded?" I only ask, because I've met some that seem kind of that way.

Conclusion: Yes, God does not change. When He does change something, He makes it very clear (like the Old and New Covenant). There are plenty of OT and NT verses showing His forgiveness, along with your examples of unforgiveness. Therefore, we can conclude by looking at the entire Word, that He both forgives and doesn't forgive. He has compassion and mercy on whom He wills. In the Scriptures, we can see that His compassion/mercy is evident when a person is drawn to Himself, led to repentance, is unblinded, is set free, and receives remission of sins in His name. There is only one sin that the Bible calls "unforgivable", and it seems rare, and is controversial. So, always pointing people to Christ, we confidently know like us, they can/will be forgiven of their sins when they come to Jesus and are "born again." In addition, From the NT parables of the "prodigal son" and "lost sheep", we do see grace and forgiveness on His own's waywardness. Let's not forget that He is the One who goes and finds the "lost sheep."

It's obvious that you are misunderstanding me. I believe forgiveness is available. But at the same time forgiveness does not become applicable until a person confesses and repents. Secondly your attempting to use the New Testament to do away with what God said in the Old Testament. We don't find Jesus trying to diminish what His Father said in the Old Testament. I am a person who believes our Bibles have two Testaments, and as I previous stated and proved from the New Testament, that what was written in the Old Testament was written for our examples, learning, instruction, warning and admonition. (see Rom 15:4; 1 Cor 10) which you are ignoring.
Nevertheless lets revisit the Ezek verses.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it; for in his iniquity that he hath committed he will die.

The above verses clearly state that a righteous man who turns away from his righteousness will die in his sin. The only way this righteous man can avoid dying in his sin is to do a turn about, at which time God will show mercy and forgive, as well as restore this man. However both the Old as well as the New Testament make it clear that many refuse to return and repent.

God pleads with people to turn and live.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And in closing a New Testament statement about unwillingness to repent.

Rev 2:21 And I gave to her time so that she should repent, and she was not willing to repent from her sexual sin.

So while God is willing to forgive, He won't forgive a person who is unwilling to repent. The prodical son you refer to was willing to repent and do a turn about.

The Bible says "if we confess our sins we will be forgiven" Forgiveness isn't automatic. There are conditions. The condition and responsibility of man is to confess, repent and turn from sin. Most do, but some don't.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

A person who doesn't use the entire Bible, both the Old as well as the New Testament only has half the truth. Too many people for too long have stated that Christian's today don't need to read the Old Testament, because it doesn't apply to us today. Nothing could be further from the truth. What Testament did Jesus, Matthew or Luke quote from?

Mograce2U
Dec 15th 2007, 05:11 PM
Under the old covenant, atonement of sin was temporary and needed to be repeated. If a righteous man turned back to iniquity without repentance, death would be the result. John tells us that there is a sin unto death which we need not pray for (1 John 5:16). But for those sins that are not unto death, we can pray and God will give a brother life for that sin. This is the difference under the new covenant, because our atonement "sticks" and we do not lose our sanctified position before the Lord. John is instructing us in our priesthood under the new covenant towards our brethren (See Heb 5:1-2).

That leaves us with the question regarding the sin that is unto death that cannot be forgiven. Which is what this thread is about. Only one has been mentioned in the NT and it is this blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Under the old covenant the death penalty existed for many willful sins, but under the new even those can be forgiven.

(Rom 6:16-18 KJV) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? {17} But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. {18} Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

One who turns back to fight against the One who bought him, has put himself in an unrecoverable position because he has forsaken the Lord. One must abide in Christ to be saved. For the one who turns back and teaches others to do the same - the curse of idolatry is upon him. Because he has denied the only One who can save him and has chosen to serve the devil instead.

(Heb 10:29-31 KJV) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? {30} For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

ServantofTruth
Dec 15th 2007, 05:26 PM
Can i first say i was a little surprised that the original poster of this topic went to a multitude of 'dictionaries' first. The individual meaning of each word in a biblical sentence will be of little value. The last biblical dictionary - would have been where i started.
I haven't recieved my Mathew Henry multi volume commentary yet, but my last 2 studies on John's gospel and the one i'm in at the moment Luke's gospel answer this question. Blasphamy against the Holy spirit is continued rejection of the bible/ gospel/ good news/ the one true God, whichever way you term it. Perhaps easily put as not being saved and certain NOT WANTING to be saved!
This is not an easy idea/ verse. We should not approach complex biblical truths, any way but biblically. Using even a normal dictionary could give satan a chance to lead us down the wrong path.
This is my understanding from certain study guides but i would certainly appreciate help on this as well, from those with better knowledge and books by respected christians in history led by the Holy Spirit himself. I must now start a new topic on the Holy Spirit, from my study today.

alethos
Dec 15th 2007, 07:27 PM
Can i first say i was a little surprised that the original poster of this topic went to a multitude of 'dictionaries' first. The individual meaning of each word in a biblical sentence will be of little value. The last biblical dictionary - would have been where i started.
I haven't recieved my Mathew Henry multi volume commentary yet, but my last 2 studies on John's gospel and the one i'm in at the moment Luke's gospel answer this question. Blasphamy against the Holy spirit is continued rejection of the bible/ gospel/ good news/ the one true God, whichever way you term it. Perhaps easily put as not being saved and certain NOT WANTING to be saved!
This is not an easy idea/ verse. We should not approach complex biblical truths, any way but biblically. Using even a normal dictionary could give satan a chance to lead us down the wrong path.
This is my understanding from certain study guides but i would certainly appreciate help on this as well, from those with better knowledge and books by respected christians in history led by the Holy Spirit himself. I must now start a new topic on the Holy Spirit, from my study today.

That was an excellent reply. I agree wholeheartedly

BranchoftheVine
Dec 15th 2007, 08:20 PM
Alethos: I completely agree mostly with your post. You're finally coming around to admitting He does forgive in a person's repentance. Before, I felt you sounded like a person that believed there was no forgiveness when a person gets "off track" with the Lord.

What I don't agree with is some of the lines you said in your first paragraph. There is nothing I said that shows I am trying to diminish anything in the OT. I enjoy the OT very much so. Like you, and all other Christians, I believe in a Bible with both an OT and a NT. (I am not of Judaism faith, you know). And, yes, there is an "Old Covenant" and a "New Covenant" which does reflect changes that all believers need to acknowledge --including you. And, yes, Jesus didn't diminish anything said in the OT, because He was the "Spirit of the Lord" of the OT come in the flesh. Jesus did say that the "unforgivable sin" was applicable "...in this age, and in the age to come." From His statements surrounding the sin, we can see it deals someway with Him, His life, His work, His testimony, His witness.

Anyways, it has been great discussing with you on this subject.

Mograce2U: I agree with your post, but I'm not sure about the last two sections you wrote. Are you talking about a willfull choosing to serve the devil, and willfully fight against Christ? (Because, even the "prodigal son" was operating under the spirit of disobedience, and obviously not being obedient towards God). I still think you have to be careful with those statements, because I've heard testimonies out there that involved something of that kind of story, and they repented and were saved. For one, I met a kid from a Christian home that went into satanism for a season, but was delivered through prayer.

Those Hebrews 10 verses you listed talk about a "somber punishment", and people read those and instantly think of being damned to hell. But, they don't necessarily mean that. They could talk about some sort of "earthly judgement" in life for disobeying God. Hebrews shows that all adulterers and fornicators will be judged by God (in some way). Divine judgement on a life comes in many forms (including being allowed a hardened heart, and thus, given over to sin for a season). Those Hebrews 10 verses also seem to match the verses in Luke that show punishment brought upon a servant who knew His Master's will, but didn't do so (thus, was whipped with many stripes). Remember, His Word is interlinked.

hootinannie
Dec 15th 2007, 09:00 PM
It's obvious that you are misunderstanding me. I believe forgiveness is avaialble. But at the same time forgiveness does not become applicable until a person confesses and repents. Secondly your attempting to use the New Testament to do away with what God said in the Old Testament. We don't find Jesus trying to diminish what His Father said in the Old Testament. I am a person who believes our Bibles have two Testaments, and as I previous stated and proved from the New Testament, that what was written in the Old Testament was written for our examples, learning, instruction, warning and admonition. (see Rom 15:4; 1 Cor 10) which you are ignoring.
Nevertheless lets revisit the Ezek verses.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it; for in his iniquity that he hath committed he will die.

The above verses clearly state that a righteous man who turns away from his righteousness will die in his sin. The only way this righteous man can avoid dying in his sin is to do a turn about, at which time God will show mercy and forgive, as well as restore this man. However both the Old as well as the New Testament make it clear that many refuse to return and repent.

God pleads with people to turn and live.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And in closing a New Testament statement about unwillingness to repent.

Rev 2:21 And I gave to her time so that she should repent, and she was not willing to repent from her sexual sin.

So while God is willing to forgive, He won't forgive a person who is unwilling to repent. The prodical son you refer to was willing to repent and do a turn about.

The Bible says "if we confess our sins we will be forgiven" Forgiveness isn't automatic. There are conditions. The condition and responsibility of man is to confess, repent and turn from sin. Most do, but some don't.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

A person who doesn't use the entire Bible, both the Old as well as the New Testament only has half the truth. Too many people for too long have stated that Christian's today don't need to read the Old Testament, because it doesn't apply to us today. Nothing could be further from the truth. What Testament did Jesus, Matthew or Luke quote from?


Well, now why didn't you say all this in the beginning? If you had, I wouldn't have disagreed with you. From what you said, though, what came across was that even if a believer did one or more of those things you listed, and WANTED to be forgiven...was REPENTANT, that God would NEVER forgive them. That would mean that we could be condemned to eternal hell for one act of sin. That's what came across from the way you wrote what you wrote. It COMPLETELY sounded like you were saying that if a Christian even did ANYTHING included in the list you gave, that they would never be forgiven and were going to hell no matter how much they repented. That's why I disagreed so strongly with you. I thought it went without saying that we were talking of people who were sorry for their sins and were seeking forgiveness, and Jesus was saying in effect, "Even if you are guilty of all kinds of sins and blasphemies, you can be forgiven if you are repentant and want to be forgiven, except for if you've blasphemed the Holy Spirit." (In which case, they wouldn't BE repentant or want to be forgiven.)

But now that you've clarified what you really meant, I pretty much agree with what you've said. Sorry for misunderstanding. :)

hootinannie
Dec 15th 2007, 09:16 PM
Can i first say i was a little surprised that the original poster of this topic went to a multitude of 'dictionaries' first. The individual meaning of each word in a biblical sentence will be of little value. The last biblical dictionary - would have been where i started.
I haven't recieved my Mathew Henry multi volume commentary yet, but my last 2 studies on John's gospel and the one i'm in at the moment Luke's gospel answer this question. Blasphamy against the Holy spirit is continued rejection of the bible/ gospel/ good news/ the one true God, whichever way you term it. Perhaps easily put as not being saved and certain NOT WANTING to be saved!
This is not an easy idea/ verse. We should not approach complex biblical truths, any way but biblically. Using even a normal dictionary could give satan a chance to lead us down the wrong path.
This is my understanding from certain study guides but i would certainly appreciate help on this as well, from those with better knowledge and books by respected christians in history led by the Holy Spirit himself. I must now start a new topic on the Holy Spirit, from my study today.

I went to the dictionaries because the title I gave this thread was "Do we really know WHAT blasphemy is?" This very question begs a definition of blasphemy, both a secular AND a Biblical definition. I simply gave the definitions in the order in which they came up in the search I did on dictionaries.com. I did not choose to put the Easton's Bible Dictionary last because I gave it any less weight...it was simply last on the page I pasted from. The original question was not "What is the unpardonable sin?" (Although I allowed the subject to be addressed) In learning to do word-studies, I have discovered time and time and time again that I may have a "feel" for a word and think I know what it means, but when I begin to study it out, I discover that there is a whole lot more to the word than I ever realized. I think that many, if not most, people...Christian AND secular think that the word "blasphemy" means using God's name in a string of curse words. And while that certainly could qualify, it most definitely is not the WHOLE meaning. I was simply trying to get people to look at the word and to understand that there is a whole lot more to blasphemy than simply using God's name while swearing.

Hoot

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 15th 2007, 09:41 PM
Well i have to say i backed out of this topic, because of not being sure, though at first i agreed with Hoot and alethos, but upon reading the scriptures in context, i find that this is probably something we are adding to the word as far as restriction just like Eve did when she said "you may not touch it, lest you die"

So, while it's extremely rare that i agree with MoGrace2U i have to say i think she's right on with what she wrote in below quote of a previous post.


A good example is given to us in Exodus when Moses brought the plagues upon Egypt. Pharoah's magicians were able to duplicate the first 3 miracles: turning rods into snakes, water into blood and the plague of frogs. But when it came to making lice out of dust they could not do this (create a life form) and claimed it was the finger of God at work. So we are dealing with sorcery by the power of the devil that tries to pass itself off as the power of "God". Simon the Sorcerer was of this mind (Acts 8). And he was able to deceive the people by the wonders he was able to do. So now we have the scribes doing the exact opposite as they try to convince the people that what they are witnessing Jesus doing is of the devil.

The ability to cast out a deaf and dumb spirit was something the Jewish exorcists were unable to do and it was thought that this would be a particular sign of Messiah. Jesus came with 2 witnesses from His Father - the words of God and the works of God (John 5:31) - which these scribes spoke against at every turn as they tried to discredit His testimony as their Messiah sent by God.

This calling good, evil and evil, good; is what turns people away from knowing the true God - either of which is blaspheme as it concerns the true nature of God - His NAME. These scribes were denying the Lord come to save them and trying to turn the people away from their salvation. There can be no forgiveness for those who do such things - calling Satan "God" and God "Satan", is what they were doing.

I don't agree with other views of her such as the Law being done away with however :)

Shalom,
Tanja

alethos
Dec 15th 2007, 09:43 PM
Well, now why didn't you say all this in the beginning? If you had, I wouldn't have disagreed with you. From what you said, though, what came across was that even if a believer did one or more of those things you listed, and WANTED to be forgiven...was REPENTANT, that God would NEVER forgive them. That would mean that we could be condemned to eternal hell for one act of sin. That's what came across from the way you wrote what you wrote. It COMPLETELY sounded like you were saying that if a Christian even did ANYTHING included in the list you gave, that they would never be forgiven and were going to hell no matter how much they repented. That's why I disagreed so strongly with you. I thought it went without saying that we were talking of people who were sorry for their sins and were seeking forgiveness, and Jesus was saying in effect, "Even if you are guilty of all kinds of sins and blasphemies, you can be forgiven if you are repentant and want to be forgiven, except for if you've blasphemed the Holy Spirit." (In which case, they wouldn't BE repentant or want to be forgiven.)

But now that you've clarified what you really meant, I pretty much agree with what you've said. Sorry for misunderstanding. :)

Thanks for understanding. All is cool :cool:

alethos
Dec 15th 2007, 09:49 PM
Alethos: I completely agree mostly with your post. You're finally coming around to admitting He does forgive in a person's repentance. Before, I felt you sounded like a person that believed there was no forgiveness when a person gets "off track" with the Lord.

What I don't agree with is some of the lines you said in your first paragraph. There is nothing I said that shows I am trying to diminish anything in the OT. I enjoy the OT very much so. Like you, and all other Christians, I believe in a Bible with both an OT and a NT. (I am not of Judaism faith, you know). And, yes, there is an "Old Covenant" and a "New Covenant" which does reflect changes that all believers need to acknowledge --including you. And, yes, Jesus didn't diminish anything said in the OT, because He was the "Spirit of the Lord" of the OT come in the flesh. Jesus did say that the "unforgivable sin" was applicable "...in this age, and in the age to come." From His statements surrounding the sin, we can see it deals someway with Him, His life, His work, His testimony, His witness.

Anyways, it has been great discussing with you on this subject.



I too have enjoyed our discussion

Thanks

BranchoftheVine
Dec 16th 2007, 02:56 AM
I just think when we talk on these boards, we all need to all be careful in how we phrase our statements. There is a "fine line" of standing on truth of sin and His judgements, but never making a sinner feel unforgivable or outside His mercy. The NT clearly teaches that salvation in Christ involves repentance from sin, and faith in Him (His Word and work) that follows sanctification in Him. Only the Holy Spirit convicts of righteousness, of sin, and of judgement. Therefore, we can conclude that true repentance cannot occur apart from His intervention. As broken vessels of His grace and mercy, we are to always point people to the One who can save.

As far as this "unforgivable sin", it has brought fear onto a lot of misunderstanding Christians. Even myself, when I first learned of it, I remember I trembled in fear with lack of knowledge. Yet, even knowing my actions didn't match what the context stated, and what notes in commentaries said, my heart still severely condemned me, and I basically almost passed out on my bed. In those moments of dispair, I went through something in my heart/mind/soul that made me know I hadn't committed that sin, and I was to get up, and continue following Jesus. I'm not sure what quite happened, but I know He does guide a person into all truth. It makes me think of those Hebrews verses that show His angels are sent to minister those who will inherit His salvation.

Tanja: You must not be talking about the "Mosaic Laws." Right? If your talking about the Ten Commandments, than I agree. They are His divine, eternal law that have always existed, and will always exist. They define our sin and reveal how all of us fall short of His glory, and need Him as our Savior. In true conversion, He writes that law on our heart and conscience, and we obey Him because we love Him. Yet, we are justifed by faith, and are saved by grace alone, not by keeping the law (we could never keep). Isn't that your belief as a Christian? Just curious...

Mograce2U
Dec 16th 2007, 06:07 AM
Well i have to say i backed out of this topic, because of not being sure, though at first i agreed with Hoot and alethos, but upon reading the scriptures in context, i find that this is probably something we are adding to the word as far as restriction just like Eve did when she said "you may not touch it, lest you die"

So, while it's extremely rare that i agree with MoGrace2U i have to say i think she's right on with what she wrote in below quote of a previous post.
....

I don't agree with other views of her such as the Law being done away with however :)

Shalom,
TanjaI can't believe you said that our agreement is extremely rare! :D Don't you know I love you? Shoot - don't you expect that we might misunderstand one another (the law is done away?) and still be sisters in the Lord? I know you do, girl. We have many things in common I am sure! :hug: Too cute...

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 16th 2007, 12:40 PM
I can't believe you said that our agreement is extremely rare! Don't you know I love you? Shoot - don't you expect that we might misunderstand one another (the law is done away?) and still be sisters in the Lord? I know you do, girl. We have many things in common I am sure! :hug: Too cute...

LOL Robin, i'm not sure i could call it a misunderstanding, though it may be. And i agree we surely have many things in common. :hug: Love ya too!

Shalom,
Tanja