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Ruth2
Dec 11th 2007, 09:19 PM
Yes another 'Santa' thread. This is my story.

First - this is for sharing purposes not to judge. It is to reach out to other hearts who have been hurt as mine was.

The heart of a child is a precious gift from God and they are all as different as every snowflake. Not all children survive the 'innocent' fairy tales and games of childhood unscathed. This writing of mine is to share with those who either had the same experience as I did and to give them some encouragement or to speak to parents who may be considering what to do and this may help them to decide.

Please know that this is something very near and dear to my heart and for those who disagree with me on my conclusions - then that is for you to have your own conclusions and I respect that and simply ask you to respect mine.

But this is about what happened to me and my own extremely difficult journey and how I have known others who have had similar experiences. So, please - know that I am not judging anyone because I don't know your heart and we all make errors in our lives - including me (I made plenty when raising my own children) but ask that you consider what happened to me in light of decisions you make about your own children. If I can save one child from going through what I went through by sharing this - then it will be worth it.

To those searching for God:

THE HEART OF A CHILD
Quote:
Luke 18:16-18 NIV (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Luke+18%3A16-18)
16But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

I have debated intellectuals and I have comforted broken hearts but nothing makes the love of God clearer in my eyes than the trust of a child.

When I debate intellectuals or try to answer their questions when they are searching for the intellectual reasons to come to the Lord, at some point I realize that there is no answer in the world that will touch their heart unless they remember what it was like to trust.

I remember the day that trust became my enemy. I was sitting in the den getting ready to go play outside when I heard my sisters and mother talking. They knew I was in the next room because I had just asked them where the box of mittens were because they were not in the den closet where they are supposed to be. We lived in a small house – about 1000 square feet so it wasn’t as though their words would be hidden from me. I was 6.

I heard them ask my mother if she was going to tell me that Santa wasn’t real. She laughed and said, “If she is so stupid as to still think Santa is real, then that’s her problem.” Then I heard them roar with laughter. My heart broke. Then, it hardened. Stupid? I thought. I’ll never be that stupid ever again. I will never believe in anything I cannot see or touch ever again. I won’t trust her or anyone else ever again.

That was the day my innocence died. It was that very trust that God plants in each of our hearts that bring us to Him. If it is destroyed – it is a hard road back. And, my road was long and hard.

To those who are struggling to trust God: Do you remember the day your heart was broken and that precious trust of a child was crushed? Do you remember what it felt like to trust in such a way as to fall backwards into someone's arms without any fear? That is the heart of a child that Jesus speaks of.

The narrow path to salvation is really simple – Scripture tells us: A Child Shall Lead Them –and, as with all scriptures, this one has multiple meanings and I honestly believe that this means it is our childhood trust that will lead us to and down that narrow path.

I run into so many who hold their wonderful childhood memories as something they would not want to have taken from them and also that they know better than to abuse a child's trust. I simply want to suggest to them that just as every little heart is different - there may be one that - even to no one's fault - a child's heart is broken - their trust is shattered. The same trust they need to have faith in Jesus is crushed. Not all children had it turn out so great and for the sake of those precious little hearts - this is about the ONE. I was the one.

There is the scripture that supports the concern about even ONE child being harmed by a lie (and a lie is a lie in God's eyes). This dear lie caused me to slam the door on ever trusting anyone again - it stole my faith at the innocent age of 6. It took 40 years and sinking into the depths of despair before I had no place left to go but to look up before God was finally able to pull me from the depths of sin and sorrow. Not being able to trust God was the only barrier that made the difference in my life.
Quote:
Matthew 18:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+18%3A6)
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Quote:
Mark 9:42 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+9%3A42)
[ Causing to Sin ] "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

Quote:
Luke 17:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Luke+17%3A2)
It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

Out of respect for those who have been deeply wounded or could be - please give prayerful consideration to something that truly hurts - even the one.
__________________

hdt
Dec 12th 2007, 02:20 AM
How awful Ruth! I have to say rather mean as well. :cry:

I do remember finding out the truth about Santa, but in a much different way. I can see why it would crush you like that by what they said and how they said it.

I have to say I'm glad I didn't find out that way, because it sure didn't effect me in fashion.

I'm so sorry.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 01:48 PM
Thank you for your kind words. :hug: I wrote up my experience just to help people realize that children's hearts are like snowflakes - no two are alike.

Even though the event was horrific - it helped me to have a more sensitive heart for my own children. While I still did santa for them as children - the first time they asked (my oldest was 4) I told them the truth and followed up with the truth of our Lord.

I did santa for the simple reason as to not cause resentment in the extended family because their children were about the same age and as long as I didn't have to lie to them and it was just for fun - then I didn't see the harm.

I promised myself that I wouldn't lie to my children - ever and I kept that promise.

Thank you again for your kind words.

karenoka27
Dec 12th 2007, 02:09 PM
Ruth, I agree with you. I came to know the Lord before I had my second child.
I did let Santa be in their lives but I also made them aware that he was only for fun and not real.
You make a good point and I am going to share that with my daughter who now has two children. Thank you.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 02:44 PM
Ruth, I agree with you. I came to know the Lord before I had my second child.
I did let Santa be in their lives but I also made them aware that he was only for fun and not real.
You make a good point and I am going to share that with my daughter who now has two children. Thank you.


God bless you so much! If sharing what happened to me helps one little heart be saved from the pain - then I can rejoice.

I was talking to a friend about when my daughter, at 4 years old, asked if santa was real. In our conversation, I realized that this was the first evidence of her developing discernment. This same discernment that she would need in life to tell right from wrong - truth from a lie. The same heart of a child she would need to trust her savior.

For parents to let that moment be met with truth and help their discernment develop in the way God intended is awesome. But for parents who do what mine did like leave milk and cookies out for santa and have it be consumed as evidence and also my dad even went up on the roof and made noises - all to try to override and trick my discernment IMHO, is wrong.

I find it interesting when I talk to many parents - they think that when their child learns for certain that santa isn't real that their innocence is gone - that their childhood is over.

Ironically, they are right. The heart of a child - that innocence with the discernment to know truth from a lie is damaged by all the tricks done to try to keep santa 'alive' until the child is no longer easily fooled. While they are trying to - for, in human wisdom, seems to be for all the right reasons - keep a fantasy alive - they are doing it at a risk of causing damage to that little heart. And that is why I quoted the scriptures warning us of the danger in doing that.

When parents push past the child's question and try to trick them into continuing the fantasy - that same trust and discernment in the heart of a child to trust God unto salvation has been used and in many cases abused and damaged to the point that some never come to a saving faith.

I pray that we all use God given wisdom and judgment with the little hearts we are trusted with.

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 04:01 PM
Methinks thou doth protest too much. Poor Santa. Hrmm... misplaced emotion on a fictional character... I have a book on that somewhere.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 04:13 PM
Methinks thou doth protest too much. Poor Santa. Hrmm... misplaced emotion on a fictional character... I have a book on that somewhere.

1. Do you think that all children are the same?
2. Do you think there is a chance that there are children who can be harmed by propogating a lie by parents?
3. Do you think it is at least possible that a child will never come to a saving faith because their faith was destroyed in how their parents handled the santa thing?

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 04:26 PM
1. Do you think that all children are the same?
2. Do you think there is a chance that there are children who can be harmed by propogating a lie by parents?
3. Do you think it is at least possible that a child will never come to a saving faith because their faith was destroyed in how their parents handled the santa thing?


1. No of course not.

2. Depends on the lie. Santa is benign. Who your daddy is...is not.

3. At least possible? Sure. My intelligence tells me that a child may never come to know saving faith because of how the parents handled everything else. Santa is benign.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 04:36 PM
1. No of course not.

2. Depends on the lie. Santa is benign. Who your daddy is...is not.

3. At least possible? Sure. My intelligence tells me that a child may never come to know saving faith because of how the parents handled everything else. Santa is benign.

Okay - but based on scripture - and the warnings about protecting children and not doing anything to cause a child to sin - I take that responsibility VERY seriously and have a healthy fear of God to ignore His request.

If there is a chance - I am going to take a safe route for the sake of my love for God and not the fantasy of santa.

There are a lot of things in this life that either are benign in and of themselves but can be deadly and there are things that appear benign that are also very deceiving until we look at it from God's perspective.

Fire, in and of itself is benign in that it is just a bunch of cells moving at speads that can cause the physical change in other things but used properly it is a great tool.

I could go on and on with the analogies but I think you get the point.

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 04:51 PM
3. Do you think it is at least possible that a child will never come to a saving faith because their faith was destroyed in how their parents handled the santa thing?

I'm sure it is, but that is the parent's fault, not the fault of Santa. If your parents do not raise you right do you blame everyone else or the parents that raised you?

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 05:22 PM
I'm sure it is, but that is the parent's fault, not the fault of Santa. If your parents do not raise you right do you blame everyone else or the parents that raised you?

If I could have you look at this from a different perspective for a moment.
This is not about my parents or any other parents. It is about the heart of a child. It is not even about santa.

If you do not wish to see it from that perspective then that is fine.
I have simply presented my prayerful thoughts on the matter and you can accept or reject them.

I have no power to change anyone's mind. That is the Lord's and His alone to do.

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 05:26 PM
Well, this begs the question why did you mention Santa instead of a unviverse of other better examples if this was truly about the heart of a child?

Methinks this has a lot more to do with your heart than any child's heart.... and thats ok.

God Bless and have a Merry Christmas.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 05:28 PM
Hi Ruth. Thanks for sharing your story. If only parents would realize the great damage they do to their children when they call them stupid or in any other way disparage who they are. I am sorry this happened to you.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 05:30 PM
Hi Ruth. Thanks for sharing your story. If only parents would realize the great damage they do to their children when they call them stupid or in any other way disparage who they are. I am sorry this happened to you.

Thank you :hug:
It is so wonderful to read another supportive and loving response when I share this story.

So often, even though I am on Christian boards, I get a lot of attacks and that always is hard to deal with but for the sake of that one little heart that it might help - it is worth it.

I just keep re-reading Matthew 5 ;)

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 05:31 PM
Well, this begs the question why did you mention Santa instead of a unviverse of other better examples if this was truly about the heart of a child?

Methinks this has a lot more to do with your heart than any child's heart.... and thats ok.

God Bless and have a Merry Christmas.

Then you didn't really read the title or the whole post. Me thinks you jumped to conclusions and started defending your position. ;)

diffangle
Dec 12th 2007, 05:34 PM
Methinks this has a lot more to do with your heart than any child's heart.... and thats ok.

Considering that she was sharing her testimony of somethng painful that happened to her when she was 6 years old, she is speaking of a child's heart.

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 05:37 PM
Oh I have read it all. I am not jumping to conclusions or defending anything. Honestly, this thread is a lot more about you than children though... and thats ok.

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 05:39 PM
Considering that she was sharing her testimony of somethng painful that happened to her when she was 6 years old, she is speaking of a child's heart.


Well, at some point it is time to grow up agree? If this was war or poverty etc etc etc I would completely understand. It's about her heart and Santa.

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 05:44 PM
Honestly, this thread is a lot more about you than children though... and thats ok.

I agree. I grew up in a home where I suffered abuse on many levels (emotional, psychological, physical, etc.). If I were to start making sweeping generalizations based on those experiences alone, people who have never experienced abuse like I had would be looking at me like I was green. This is a singular response to a universal phenomenon.

ViolaSnapdragon
Dec 12th 2007, 05:47 PM
This was a very good read and I thank you for sharing. I remember feeling similar disappointment, although instead of cruel remarks from my mother it was from other classmates. It was a bad struggle, because my parents inisisted Santa was real even though I was being taunted at school for believing. I held on until I was nine, then finally confronted my parents and demanded the truth. They were rather brilliant, taking my brother and I to visit family or view Christmas lights on Christmas Eve and the presents would be under the tree when we got home. After confronting them, they pointed out that one of my parents always had to run back in to use the restroom or grab something that was forgotten..and that was when they played Santa. I felt like a fool for arguing with my classmates for so long.

I got re-married a little over a year ago(first husband was very abusive, porn-addicted, and commited adultry atleast twice) and am now pregnant with our first and most likely only child. We discussed Santa and I pushed that I really don't want to raise our child believing in Santa for the reasons mentioned. It really does just set up a child for disappointment, and why shouldn't they question everything else said after learning that what they've been taught isn't true? It's fine to tell the story of Santa, but only as a story, and if it doesn't replace the story of the birth of Jesus.

I am sad that you learned the truth that way. I can imagine how hurtful that can be for anyone to hear, let alone a six-year-old child.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 05:51 PM
Well, at some point it is time to grow up agree? If this was war or poverty etc etc etc I would completely understand. It's about her heart and Santa.

I am not going to allow this to cause me to take offense. This is not about rehashing the past or trying to 'deal with it' .

Jesus took care of that just fine a long time ago.

And this is really the last time I am going to say this and if those who cannot understand this don't see it how it is being shared, then there is nothing more I can say or do for you. This is not about me and not even about santa.

This is about the heart of a child and hoping that sharing what happened to me might help someone else from hurting a child inadvertently.

This is about the precious faith and trust a child has and how that is sometimes innocently harmed by things we take for granted or don't realize can be harmful.

I provided scriptural support for my position - can you for yours?

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 05:55 PM
We discussed Santa and I pushed that I really don't want to raise our child believing in Santa for the reasons mentioned. It really does just set up a child for disappointment, and why shouldn't they question everything else said after learning that what they've been taught isn't true? It's fine to tell the story of Santa, but only as a story, and if it doesn't replace the story of the birth of Jesus.



Set up a child for disappointment? Interesting. This is planet Earth and it is full of beautiful, wonderful, and disappointing things. Sorry mom, but you are going to have to deal with profound disappointment as it relates to your child. That's life. Santa is easier than not making the basketball team after practicing for a year for example.

I agree with your last sentence 100% :)

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 05:55 PM
I agree. I grew up in a home where I suffered abuse on many levels (emotional, psychological, physical, etc.). If I were to start making sweeping generalizations based on those experiences alone, people who have never experienced abuse like I had would be looking at me like I was green. This is a singular response to a universal phenomenon.


I am sorry that you are still suffering from the sting of your childhood :hug:

Maybe that is why you keep reading what I posted in that vein? Because you are still struggling?

Because seriously, that is not what this thread is about. I was healed when the Lord gave me a new heart - when I was born again. All things passed away and my new heart is filled with love and joy and hope.

I just want to help prevent another child from being hurt.

I will pray for you to be healed too. :hug:

diffangle
Dec 12th 2007, 05:56 PM
I provided scriptural support for my position - can you for yours?

This is a good and important question. :hmm: :)

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 05:57 PM
This is not about me and not even about santa.

Yes it is very much about you. The point is that you are taking something that has effected you and you are making sweeping generalizations with that as the basis for your claims. I do not understand why you cannot see that it is a very singular response to a universal phenomenon. How many millions of children grew up with Santa Claus and were not scarred from learning that he is "make believe." Technically Santa Claus is not make believe if you are referring to the Christian bishop and not the Coke a Cola version. No one is attacking you, but you are getting very defensive. Just calm down and take a breathier.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 05:57 PM
This was a very good read and I thank you for sharing. I remember feeling similar disappointment, although instead of cruel remarks from my mother it was from other classmates. It was a bad struggle, because my parents inisisted Santa was real even though I was being taunted at school for believing. I held on until I was nine, then finally confronted my parents and demanded the truth. They were rather brilliant, taking my brother and I to visit family or view Christmas lights on Christmas Eve and the presents would be under the tree when we got home. After confronting them, they pointed out that one of my parents always had to run back in to use the restroom or grab something that was forgotten..and that was when they played Santa. I felt like a fool for arguing with my classmates for so long.

I got re-married a little over a year ago(first husband was very abusive, porn-addicted, and commited adultry atleast twice) and am now pregnant with our first and most likely only child. We discussed Santa and I pushed that I really don't want to raise our child believing in Santa for the reasons mentioned. It really does just set up a child for disappointment, and why shouldn't they question everything else said after learning that what they've been taught isn't true? It's fine to tell the story of Santa, but only as a story, and if it doesn't replace the story of the birth of Jesus.

I am sad that you learned the truth that way. I can imagine how hurtful that can be for anyone to hear, let alone a six-year-old child.

Thank you. :hug:

And I agree - the story of Santa is fine - just like the easter bunny and the tooth fairy. But as soon as the child starts to ask questions- that is where our obligation to the Lord tells us to be honest with them.

I am so happy you are expecting a baby! How exciting!!!!!!!!!!!!
God bless you!

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 05:58 PM
I am sorry that you are still suffering from the sting of your childhood :hug:

Maybe that is why you keep reading what I posted in that vein? Because you are still struggling?

Because seriously, that is not what this thread is about. I was healed when the Lord gave me a new heart - when I was born again. All things passed away and my new heart is filled with love and joy and hope.

I just want to help prevent another child from being hurt.

I will pray for you to be healed too. :hug:

Thanks, but I am not suffering from anything. I used it as an example, but I forgave those who hurt me over ten years ago and have not looked back since.

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 06:02 PM
I am not going to allow this to cause me to take offense. This is not about rehashing the past or trying to 'deal with it' .

Jesus took care of that just fine a long time ago.

And this is really the last time I am going to say this and if those who cannot understand this don't see it how it is being shared, then there is nothing more I can say or do for you. This is not about me and not even about santa.

This is about the heart of a child and hoping that sharing what happened to me might help someone else from hurting a child inadvertently.

This is about the precious faith and trust a child has and how that is sometimes innocently harmed by things we take for granted or don't realize can be harmful.

I provided scriptural support for my position - can you for yours?

Oh please do not take offense. I don't mean it that way. :hug:

I just believe you are talking about yourself and thats perfectly fine.

If you think Santa is going to harm a kid more than life in general... well... we disagree. I don't need scriptural support for my position on this subject. God gave me grey matter that I actually use, which is constantly refreshed in the Spirit of the Word.

Have I arrived? Heck no. I am simply down to earth, matter of fact, common-sense, and honest.

God Bless.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 06:07 PM
Yes it is very much about you. The point is that you are taking something that has effected you and you are making sweeping generalizations with that as the basis for your claims. I do not understand why you cannot see that it is a very singular response to a universal phenomenon. How many millions of children grew up with Santa Claus and were not scarred from learning that he is "make believe." Technically Santa Claus is not make believe if you are referring to the Christian bishop and not the Coke a Cola version. No one is attacking you, but you are getting very defensive. Just calm down and take a breathier.

I am going to venture to guess that you have never asked another person about when they learned about Santa - how it affected them. I have.

After you have shared this with about 1000 people - then you will have more awareness of what I am saying. But until then - I can tell you that in the course of time as a born again believer, I have talked to at least 1000 different people and there are far more than you realize. Ironically, I never really gave the whole situation much thought about my own experiences until I ran across this man and then I connected my own struggles with my faith started to make sense.

There was one man who laughed at me about my faith in God when I shared it. He said "I bet you believe in santa and the easter bunny and the tooth fairy too. Not me - as soon as I learned that scam about santa - I slammed the door on fairy tales just like your god."

That actually is the day when I reflected back and started to ask those who didn't believe in God what their experience with santa was and the answer is often the same as his.

I have heard that more than once. And if you ask people - you will be surprised.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 06:08 PM
Thanks, but I am not suffering from anything. I used it as an example, but I forgave those who hurt me over ten years ago and have not looked back since.

And I too have done the same.

diffangle
Dec 12th 2007, 06:12 PM
There was one man who laughed at me about my faith in God when I shared it. He said "I bet you believe in santa and the easter bunny and the tooth fairy too. Not me - as soon as I learned that scam about santa - I slammed the door on fairy tales just like your god."


I can't count how many times I've heard atheists compare YHWH to santa. :(

xSTEADFASTx
Dec 12th 2007, 06:23 PM
beware stan and his claws!

Tanya~
Dec 12th 2007, 06:53 PM
Hi Ruth,

What really stood out to me in your post was when you spoke of abusing a child's trust. I had never thought of the Santa thing in that way. It seems to me that if parents want to play Santa, and if they are up front from the beginning that it is a tradition and pretend, that would be very different than if they're presenting Santa to the children in a way that leads them to believe in him.

Up until about age 7, a child doesn't really understand the difference between fantasy and reality anyway, so they will 'believe' in Santa even if you're telling them it is just pretend. But when they do come to understand the difference, they will transition easily. I think it's different for kids whose parents have been 'tricking' the kids all that time. There are some who are traumatized to learn that what they had believed in wasn't really true. They get over it but still, that doesn't make it a good thing. The world has enough trouble in it. We don't need to manufacture disappointments for our children.

By the way I watched Elf on TV the other night with my kids and it sort of grossed me out at the end, it really just seemed like Santa was being worshiped.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 07:06 PM
Hi Ruth,

What really stood out to me in your post was when you spoke of abusing a child's trust. I had never thought of the Santa thing in that way. It seems to me that if parents want to play Santa, and if they are up front from the beginning that it is a tradition and pretend, that would be very different than if they're presenting Santa to the children in a way that leads them to believe in him.

Up until about age 7, a child doesn't really understand the difference between fantasy and reality anyway, so they will 'believe' in Santa even if you're telling them it is just pretend. But when they do come to understand the difference, they will transition easily. I think it's different for kids whose parents have been 'tricking' the kids all that time. There are some who are traumatized to learn that what they had believed in wasn't really true. They get over it but still, that doesn't make it a good thing. The world has enough trouble in it. We don't need to manufacture disappointments for our children.

By the way I watched Elf on TV the other night with my kids and it sort of grossed me out at the end, it really just seemed like Santa was being worshiped.

Thank you for understanding my point. The only part of your statement I don't fully agree with is "They get over it"
I honestly think that some atheists are a direct result of those who didn't.
However it happened - their trust in believing without seeing was destroyed.

I love your statement 'We don't need to manufacture disspointments."

How profound!

Thank you again. :hug:

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 07:08 PM
T
I honestly think that some atheists are a direct result of those who didn't.

God bless you Ruth, but I think that is a little out there. I would venture a guess that the way they were raised has more of a role in that then Santa. Lets stop vilifying Santa and making him responsible for all of the evil in the world.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 07:12 PM
God bless you Ruth, but I think that is a little out there. I would venture a guess that the way they were raised has more of a role in that then Santa. Lets stop vilifying Santa and making him responsible for all of the evil in the world.

This isn't about Santa. (I guess I will keep repeating that each time you put the words in my mouth that I am not saying)

This is about the heart of a child. I love the fun of Santa and played the game with my children.

But when it came time to be truthful with them - I didn't start to compromise their little faith in their little hearts with my position of trust as a parent.

That really is all this is about.

It isn't about santa
It isn't about santa
It isn't about santa .......

diffangle
Dec 12th 2007, 07:13 PM
Here's an interesting article by a atheist on belief in santa...

http://atheism.about.com/od/christmasholidayseason/p/SantaMyth.htm

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 07:13 PM
Now that this thread has moved into Santa and such... Ruth, don't you think your trust was more destroyed by how your Mom responded than Santa?

As Tanya said, most kids will believe in Santa at a young age even if parents say that Santa isn't real.

In other words, the real damage was done by your Mom belittling faith and her harsh words.

We can find many kids that are hurt by harsh words. That was abuse.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 07:16 PM
Now that this thread has moved into Santa and such... Ruth, don't you think your trust was more destroyed by how your Mom responded than Santa?

As Tanya said, most kids will believe in Santa at a young age even if parents say that Santa isn't real.

In other words, the real damage was done by your Mom belittling faith and her harsh words.

We can find many kids that are hurt by harsh words. That was abuse.

No.

This is not about me.

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 07:16 PM
This isn't about Santa. (I guess I will keep repeating that each time you put the words in my mouth that I am not saying)

This is about the heart of a child. I love the fun of Santa and played the game with my children.

But when it came time to be truthful with them - I didn't start to compromise their little faith in their little hearts with my position of trust as a parent.

That really is all this is about.

It isn't about santa
It isn't about santa
It isn't about santa .......

It is about Santa. You are now saying that finding out that Santa is not real is responsible for atheism. You said it, not me.

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 07:17 PM
Now that this thread has moved into Santa and such... Ruth, don't you think your trust was more destroyed by how your Mom responded than Santa?

As Tanya said, most kids will believe in Santa at a young age even if parents say that Santa isn't real.

In other words, the real damage was done by your Mom belittling faith and her harsh words.

We can find many kids that are hurt by harsh words. That was abuse.

I agree. I think this has a lot more to do with her mom and sisters than she is willing to admit.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 07:20 PM
It is about Santa. You are now saying that finding out that Santa is not real is responsible for atheism. You said it, not me.


It was using the trust of a child in a parent to feed them stories - my particular issue was with santa but we can make this same point using the easter bunny or a pet rock - I really don't care where the parent points the child's trust at.

It is about the parent using the child's innocence to play a game.
When the child begins to mature and ask questions -

that is the MOMENT this thread is about. If the parent choses to lie to the child about the 'living flying pet rock who creates dust bunnies under the bed who will bite their feet off if they get out of bed one more time"

And destroys that child's trust and uses their own intelligence to further confound the child's discernment by leaving out cookies for the pet rock to eat - then a line has been crossed and it is scripturally WRONG.
Don't entertain yourself with teaching a child to believe in something that isn't there if they are asking questions.

I used to give my dog peanut butter because it was funny to watch him try to lick it off the roof of his mouth.
Then I grew up.

Tanya~
Dec 12th 2007, 07:20 PM
Thank you for understanding my point. The only part of your statement I don't fully agree with is "They get over it"
I honestly think that some atheists are a direct result of those who didn't.
However it happened - their trust in believing without seeing was destroyed.

Well I got over it. :) I think for the most part, kids do get over it. But there are exceptions and the fact that there are exceptions does show that it isn't really as 'benign' as some would have us think; however, the way you came to know the truth was more complicated because it was exacerbated by the cruelty of your mother's words. As I was reading your post I thought that it really wasn't about Santa only, but the whole idea of abusing the trust of a child. You believed something. To make matters worse, it was your parents who gave you that belief, and then it was your mother who took it away in an unusually cruel manner.

It is a terrible abuse of a child's trust to lead them to believe something, and then turn around and snatch it out from under them.

By the way I don't do Santa at all with my kids. As a young parent I was another who intentionally decided never to deceive my children. I have other reasons as well. But when my oldest was in 6th grade, her friend's parents were STILL deceiving her about Santa Claus. This is a 10-11 year old girl, who believed in Santa Claus quite literally. Her mother went to great effort leaving 'evidence' that Santa came, including making boot prints in the carpet with baking soda, which the child believed to be from snow off of Santa's boots. Eventually she was bound to find out the truth.

I agree that this sort of thing can interfere with faith in the true God.

diffangle
Dec 12th 2007, 07:21 PM
It is about Santa. You are now saying that finding out that Santa is not real is responsible for atheism. You said it, not me.
I think she said it was the belief in the lie, not the character(santa) but the lie perpetuated by people(parents) you're supposed to trust.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 07:26 PM
Well I got over it. :) I think for the most part, kids do get over it. But there are exceptions and the fact that there are exceptions does show that it isn't really as 'benign' as some would have us think; however, the way you came to know the truth was more complicated because it was exacerbated by the cruelty of your mother's words. As I was reading your post I thought that it really wasn't about Santa only, but the whole idea of abusing the trust of a child. You believed something. To make matters worse, it was your parents who gave you that belief, and then it was your mother who took it away in an unusually cruel manner.

It is a terrible abuse of a child's trust to lead them to believe something, and then turn around and snatch it out from under them.

By the way I don't do Santa at all with my kids. As a young parent I was another who intentionally decided never to deceive my children. I have other reasons as well. But when my oldest was in 6th grade, her friend's parents were STILL deceiving her about Santa Claus. This is a 10-11 year old girl, who believed in Santa Claus quite literally. Her mother went to great effort leaving 'evidence' that Santa came, including making boot prints in the carpet with baking soda, which the child believed to be from snow off of Santa's boots. Eventually she was bound to find out the truth.

I agree that this sort of thing can interfere with faith in the true God.

Thank you! Yes - you understand fully.
Awesome that you love our Lord and your children so greatly as to be 100% honest with them. It really pays in the end and is scripturally sound.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 07:27 PM
I think she said it was the belief in the lie, not the character(santa) but the lie perpetuated by people(parents) you're supposed to trust.


Thank you Thank you Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!:hug:

Yes! That is exactly right. God bless you!!!!!!!!!!!

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 07:30 PM
I think she said it was the belief in the lie, not the character(santa) but the lie perpetuated by people(parents) you're supposed to trust.

OK, but in my honest opinion it is a little far fetched. These are all make believe things and most children are well aware of what is make believe and what is not. To say that atheism is correlated with a childhood believe in anything make believe just does not make sense to me. Atheism is something that is taught or learned by example (if your parents or loved ones are). I know for a lot of my atheist friends it stems from having something really tragic happen to them (and no I am not talking about finding out Santa or the Easter bunny is not real). They start to question God's existence because they cannot believe a loving God would allow such atrocities to happen to his people. These are huge, life altering moments. I just do not think finding out Santa or the Easter Bunny are make believe is even close to having the emotional and psychological impact of losing someone. I guess I am a very practical person.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 07:32 PM
Well I got over it. :) I think for the most part, kids do get over it. But there are exceptions and the fact that there are exceptions does show that it isn't really as 'benign' as some would have us think; however, the way you came to know the truth was more complicated because it was exacerbated by the cruelty of your mother's words. As I was reading your post I thought that it really wasn't about Santa only, but the whole idea of abusing the trust of a child. You believed something. To make matters worse, it was your parents who gave you that belief, and then it was your mother who took it away in an unusually cruel manner.

It is a terrible abuse of a child's trust to lead them to believe something, and then turn around and snatch it out from under them.

By the way I don't do Santa at all with my kids. As a young parent I was another who intentionally decided never to deceive my children. I have other reasons as well. But when my oldest was in 6th grade, her friend's parents were STILL deceiving her about Santa Claus. This is a 10-11 year old girl, who believed in Santa Claus quite literally. Her mother went to great effort leaving 'evidence' that Santa came, including making boot prints in the carpet with baking soda, which the child believed to be from snow off of Santa's boots. Eventually she was bound to find out the truth.

I agree that this sort of thing can interfere with faith in the true God.

The reason most get over it is because most aren't abused as this dear lady was.

Having said that, I still don't understand why parents would intentionally lie to their kids for their own benefit. Doesn't seem quite biblical does it?

Kids have a hard time knowing the difference. Enjoy their innocence until they are old enough to figure it out. Help them figure it out. Enjoy the process. Don't lie. That's kind of the way I see it.

Seeker of truth
Dec 12th 2007, 07:33 PM
Another love filled thread.

Christmas threads seem to bring out the best in us..........

Sorry for the sarcasm, I just think we should all think before we post.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 07:34 PM
I think she said it was the belief in the lie, not the character(santa) but the lie perpetuated by people(parents) you're supposed to trust.

The harshness of a mom calling her daughter stupid did far more damage than we are focusing on in this thread.

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 07:34 PM
What exactly offended you seeker?

diffangle
Dec 12th 2007, 07:34 PM
I guess I am a very practical person.
Okay but it's not exactly impractical to support the Scriptural belief of not lying. ;)

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 07:35 PM
The harshness of a mom calling her daughter stupid did far more damage than we are focusing on in this thread.


Agreed. Santa is honestly the victim of misplaced emotion.... but thats ok.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 07:37 PM
Agreed. Santa is honestly the victim of misplaced emotion.... but thats ok.

Well, I don't mean to endorse Santa. I think had the lie never been put forward, the opportunity to call her stupid would not have been presented.

But when reading the OP, how can we not empathize with where this lady has been? Better to never believe in Santa than to have one child hurt over it.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 07:37 PM
The harshness of a mom calling her daughter stupid did far more damage than we are focusing on in this thread.

With all do respect - no it didn't. Since this was done to me - I think I know what was in my heart and what wasn't. With all do respect.

It wasn't the word. I was used to that. Honestly. My mother used that word with everyone all the time and she actually praised me a lot for how intelligent I was so I didn't take offense to that word.

What it was is that I was stupid for TRUSTING her. It was that she was laughing at me for misplacing my trust in my own mother! How stupid is that? It was the trust issued not the word stupid.

I am glad you brought that out because if that is what people were thinking - I am glad I got a chance to clarify.

diffangle
Dec 12th 2007, 07:37 PM
The harshness of a mom calling her daughter stupid did far more damage than we are focusing on in this thread.
I agree but I think there is a dual issue being discussed in this thread. :)

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 07:39 PM
Well, I don't mean to endorse Santa. I think had the lie never been put forward, the opportunity to call her stupid would not have been presented.

But when reading the OP, how can we not empathize with where this lady has been? Better to never believe in Santa than to have one child hurt over it.


Amen to that Brother! Amen to that!!!!!!!!

And I am very confident that our Lord agrees with you too!

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 07:42 PM
I agree but I think there is a dual issue being discussed in this thread. :)


Yep, and I for one am not qualified to tackle it. So, Michael is gonna exit stage left, hijack Santa's Sleigh, and head for the tropics.... Costa Rica is nice this time of year.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 07:43 PM
With all do respect - no it didn't. Since this was done to me - I think I know what was in my heart and what wasn't. With all do respect.

It wasn't the word. I was used to that. Honestly. My mother used that word with everyone all the time and she actually praised me a lot for how intelligent I was so I didn't take offense to that word.

What it was is that I was stupid for TRUSTING her. It was that she was laughing at me for misplacing my trust in my own mother! How stupid is that? It was the trust issued not the word stupid.

I am glad you brought that out because if that is what people were thinking - I am glad I got a chance to clarify.

They go together. In other words, when trust is abused through harsh words, people get deeply hurt.

I don't advocate abusing the trust of a child. I can't speak for you nor do I wish to. I am sorry I suggested I knew what was in your heart.

On the other hand, much data is available to show how those that grow up under abusive language are impacted. But this I do know, kids that grow up being verbally abused often have to deal with issues of trust. That can be seen a LOT in counseling environments. Rarely do we have to deal with anyone that said "i believed in Santa but my ability to trust was impacted by it". Does it happen? Well, it happened to you. But far more damage is done to most kids by parents telling them to trust them, then when they do as they are told, the parents call them stupid. This happens a LOT and not just about Christmas or Santa. It usually happens in many different ways.

Seeker of truth
Dec 12th 2007, 07:43 PM
What exactly offended you seeker?

The whole idea of Christians calling other Christians liars for one thing. Read over some of the Christmas threads.

If you don't want to do the santa thing then by all means don't. Stop calling people who do choose to liars. Those who do the santa thing should show respect for those who don't.

Come one everyone, we are Christians here, let's spread love, not hurtful words.

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 07:44 PM
Can we start an anti-Peter Cottontail thread now and bash Mr. McGregor?

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 07:45 PM
The whole idea of Christians calling other Christians liars for one thing. Read over some of the Christmas threads.

If you don't want to do the santa thing then by all means don't. Stop calling people who do choose to liars. Those who do the santa thing should show respect for those who don't.

Come one everyone, we are Christians here, let's spread love, not hurtful words.

Seeker, I don't see where anyone called anyone else a liar in this thread. However, what has been said is that saying Santa is real, when he is not, is a lie. There is a difference in those two approaches.

St_Michael
Dec 12th 2007, 07:46 PM
The whole idea of Christians calling other Christians liars for one thing. Read over some of the Christmas threads.

If you don't want to do the santa thing then by all means don't. Stop calling people who do choose to liars. Those who do the santa thing should show respect for those who don't.

Come one everyone, we are Christians here, let's spread love, not hurtful words.


Agreed.................

Seeker of truth
Dec 12th 2007, 07:47 PM
Seeker, I don't see where anyone called anyone else a liar in this thread. However, what has been said is that saying Santa is real, when he is not, is a lie. There is a difference in those two approaches.

As I said look over the other Christmas threads. There was one in paticular that got quite nasty IMO.

threebigrocks
Dec 12th 2007, 07:50 PM
Bit G would also be moving this one on over to contro at this point.

Getting cozy over there!

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 07:54 PM
The whole idea of Christians calling other Christians liars for one thing. Read over some of the Christmas threads.

If you don't want to do the santa thing then by all means don't. Stop calling people who do choose to liars. Those who do the santa thing should show respect for those who don't.

Come one everyone, we are Christians here, let's spread love, not hurtful words.

I sincerely hope that is not how my posts have come across. I am not calling anyone a liar. I am simply saying that without realizing it - and I am sure that I have made this mistake too - for the sake of tradition or just not stopping to think about it - there is a point where we need know where to stop.

Like I said - I did the santa thing with my kinds and encourage anyone who wants to do so. But, for them to stop and think about it when the child asks - is he real - to realize that playing the fantasy at that point if we choose to not be completely honest - is - a lie.

So - we are not calling anyone a liar - we are calling the deed a lie.
Then these scriptures apply



John 9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains
James 4: 17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

Prior to anyone realizing what they were doing - would not be wrong.

Seeker of truth
Dec 12th 2007, 08:01 PM
I sincerely hope that is not how my posts have come across. I am not calling anyone a liar. I am simply saying that without realizing it - and I am sure that I have made this mistake too - for the sake of tradition or just not stopping to think about it - there is a point where we need know where to stop.

Like I said - I did the santa thing with my kinds and encourage anyone who wants to do so. But, for them to stop and think about it when the child asks - is he real - to realize that playing the fantasy at that point if we choose to not be completely honest - is - a lie.

So - we are not calling anyone a liar - we are calling the deed a lie.
Then these scriptures apply


Prior to anyone realizing what they were doing - would not be wrong.

What I am saying is the majority of threads with Christmas as the topic end up being disprespectful and unnecessary things are said.

To me it's an issue of respect.

I was horribly verbally (and somewhat physically) abused growing up. It has caused me to take care in what I say to my children. Just because we do the santa thing does not make me some vile child abuser out to shatter my childs innocents.

I'd like the same respect I give those who do not do the santa thing.

Tanya~
Dec 12th 2007, 08:04 PM
I think these threads always go south because there is so much emotion tied to Christmas, for good or ill.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 08:05 PM
What I am saying is the majority of threads with Christmas as the topic end up being disprespectful and unnecessary things are said.

To me it's an issue of respect.

I was horribly verbally (and somewhat physically) abused growing up. It has caused me to take care in what I say to my children. Just because we do the santa thing does not make me some vile child abuser out to shatter my childs innocents.

I'd like the same respect I give those who do not do the santa thing.

I agree completely.

I did the santa thing with my children. I don't agree with the concept that it is wrong. To think that would mean to eliminate ALL fantasy from their lives and that is not right. I think fantasy helps to develop a child's mind and imagination. It is God given.

What this thread is about is when a child starts to ask questions and looking for honest answers from their parents - whether it is about santa, the easter bunny or whatever - that the parents respect the child and give them an honest answer.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 08:06 PM
I think these threads always go south because there is so much emotion tied to Christmas, for good or ill.

It doesn't have to if we always filter our answers through the Holy Spirit rather than responding from the flesh.

If we put the Lord between us in all we do - then we should be able to discuss these things and examine them in the light of scripture without letting the enemy have the victory.

Seeker of truth
Dec 12th 2007, 08:10 PM
I agree completely.

I did the santa thing with my children. I don't agree with the concept that it is wrong. To think that would mean to eliminate ALL fantasy from their lives and that is not right. I think fantasy helps to develop a child's mind and imagination. It is God given.

What this thread is about is when a child starts to ask questions and looking for honest answers from their parents - whether it is about santa, the easter bunny or whatever - that the parents respect the child and give them an honest answer.

I agree it's very important to answer a childs questions as honestly as possible.

There are certain things we may sugar coat (like when Hannah had her adnoids out I didn't tell her of the risks of surgery) but children should never be ignored when they ask questions or made to feel guilty for asking.

threebigrocks
Dec 12th 2007, 08:14 PM
So - we are not calling anyone a liar - we are calling the deed a lie.
Then these scriptures apply


If I tell a lie, like so many claim telling your kids santa is real is.....

...that makes me a liar.

If you lie, it makes you a liar.


If Joe or Bob or Jane or Jack or Bobby Sue tells a lie, they are liars.

Telling a lie is doing the deed of lying. It doesn't happen independently of someone making words and moving their lips with untruth.

That is why these Christmas, Halloween, Easter threads never wind up on a positive note. That is why they land here in contro. The arguement does nothing to bring edification to anyone.

Why not discuss the true meaning of Christmas? Our Savior was born to die so our sinful fleshy selves could be reconsiled to Him and our hope and perseverance would be worthwhile. It's is a season of hope, because of His death, that we celebrate His birth.

Please, let's not forget the reason for our celebration. :saint:

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 08:16 PM
Amen threebigrocks!

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 08:19 PM
If I tell a lie, like so many claim telling your kids santa is real is.....

...that makes me a liar.

If you lie, it makes you a liar.


If Joe or Bob or Jane or Jack or Bobby Sue tells a lie, they are liars.

Maybe this should be another thread...

But scripture says there will be no liars in heaven. Yet, we know many OT saints lied (Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, among others). Is it not safe to say that scripture is not simply referring to someone who tells a lie but makes a lifestyle out of it?

In other words, while a lie is a lie, not all who lie are liars.

I am not ready to label anyone a liar for telling a lie. I think there is more to it than that.

At the very least, I know when I say a deed is a lie, I personally am not calling anyone a liar.

threebigrocks
Dec 12th 2007, 08:21 PM
That wasn't my intent Mark, but you do make good points. I'd agree that the liar thing would be best in another thread under it's own discussion on lying. ;)

jeffreys
Dec 12th 2007, 08:24 PM
Ruth2...

I just looked at this thread. I've avoided it, thinking it was probably just another thread that bashes parents who "lie" to their kids about Santa. I guess it's not that.

I'm really sorry to see that you were crushed, in that manner, when you were only 6. I cannot imagine somebody doing that to their child. My wife & I never led our kids to believe Santa was a real person/thing, and we certainly wouldn't have laughed and called them stupid if they did actually believe that.

To me, more than being about Santa, the OP seems to highlight the need for good and loving parenting! :)

I<3Jesus
Dec 12th 2007, 08:30 PM
Since this is in contro I guess it is OK to say something controversial. I often discuss these threads and this board with my pastor, one of my close friends who is a pastor, his wife and a bunch of other people who are clearly more well versed than I when it comes to all things Bible. When I tell them what gets posted here, more often than not they tell me that a lot of these things are ludicrous. I have been told on more than one occasion that I shouldn't waste my time posting here because of it. A lot of these topics, especially the recent Christmas ones, are usually laughed at. What does that tell you? That a lot of people on this site fixate on the silliest things. This is why the secular world thinks Christians are bananas.

Instead of focusing on vilifying everything, why not focus on the positive. Christian means "Little Christ." Your role as a Christian is to be a franchise of God. Whether you know it or not, when you agreed to let the Lord Jesus take over your life you agreed to abide by his franchise guidelines. When you constantly rip apart everything, point fingers and generally come off as pessimistic, judgmental, 'know it alls' do you really think you are abiding by the franchise contract? Jesus didn't get in people's faces and tell them they were wrong (well he did with some people, but those were usually the pharisees and the keepers of the law). He led them to the light by example. He got in the trenches and loved on them and then they had a change of heart and spirit.

People are not moved by words because 99.9% of the world talks a big game, but acts hypocritical when they think they are safe behind closed doors. People are moved by actions. Lead by example. Be a little Christ through your actions. This means stop attacking everything and everyone different than you. Just some food for thought.

threebigrocks
Dec 12th 2007, 08:39 PM
To me, more than being about Santa, the OP seems to highlight the need for good and loving parenting! :)

Indeed! :)

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 09:03 PM
If I tell a lie, like so many claim telling your kids santa is real is.....

...that makes me a liar.

If you lie, it makes you a liar.


If Joe or Bob or Jane or Jack or Bobby Sue tells a lie, they are liars.

Telling a lie is doing the deed of lying. It doesn't happen independently of someone making words and moving their lips with untruth.

That is why these Christmas, Halloween, Easter threads never wind up on a positive note. That is why they land here in contro. The arguement does nothing to bring edification to anyone.

Why not discuss the true meaning of Christmas? Our Savior was born to die so our sinful fleshy selves could be reconsiled to Him and our hope and perseverance would be worthwhile. It's is a season of hope, because of His death, that we celebrate His birth.

Please, let's not forget the reason for our celebration. :saint:

That is why I posted the scriptures that I did. A sin is not a sin if a person is not aware of it.

John 9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains
James 4: 17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

If a parent is following traditions of men and thinking that what they are doing is out of love because they are naive - then it truly is not a lie in their heart.

Jesus said: If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

So - based on our Lord's own words - it depends on the intentions of the heart and only our Lord knows a person's heart.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 09:35 PM
Since this is in contro I guess it is OK to say something controversial. I often discuss these threads and this board with my pastor, one of my close friends who is a pastor, his wife and a bunch of other people who are clearly more well versed than I when it comes to all things Bible. When I tell them what gets posted here, more often than not they tell me that a lot of these things are ludicrous. I have been told on more than one occasion that I shouldn't waste my time posting here because of it. A lot of these topics, especially the recent Christmas ones, are usually laughed at. What does that tell you?
It tells me that you need to spend more time in prayer and the scriptures than listening to the advise of humans. People can share with you and discuss things with you but the scriptures and the Holy Spirit are the only place to get our answers.



That a lot of people on this site fixate on the silliest things. This is why the secular world thinks Christians are bananas.
No people think we are bananas when we are hypocrites. When we claim to love others and love God and then see no problem with lying to children - that makes us to be saying one thing and doing another.





Instead of focusing on vilifying everything, why not focus on the positive. Christian means "Little Christ."

The only one I have heard use that definition is Benny Hinn. I have always understood the word Christian to mean follower of Christ. The dictionary has this definition and none of them mean little christ


1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
n. 1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.





Your role as a Christian is to be a franchise of God. Whether you know it or not, when you agreed to let the Lord Jesus take over your life you agreed to abide by his franchise guidelines. When you constantly rip apart everything, point fingers and generally come off as pessimistic, judgmental, 'know it alls' do you really think you are abiding by the franchise contract?
I did not let Jesus 'take over my life' I actually died to self and I only live because of Him now. I am a new creation of the second Adam born again into the body of Christ.




Jesus didn't get in people's faces and tell them they were wrong (well he did with some people, but those were usually the pharisees and the keepers of the law). He led them to the light by example. He got in the trenches and loved on them and then they had a change of heart and spirit.


I agree completely. So, in order to love children - we should always be 100% honest with them. What part of that do you not agree with?


People are not moved by words because 99.9% of the world talks a big game, but acts hypocritical when they think they are safe behind closed doors. People are moved by actions. Lead by example. Be a little Christ through your actions. This means stop attacking everything and everyone different than you. Just some food for thought.
Again, I am not, nor will I ever be a little christ.
I am being sanctified to become like Him and His bride but there is only one Christ.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 09:37 PM
Ruth2...

I just looked at this thread. I've avoided it, thinking it was probably just another thread that bashes parents who "lie" to their kids about Santa. I guess it's not that.

I'm really sorry to see that you were crushed, in that manner, when you were only 6. I cannot imagine somebody doing that to their child. My wife & I never led our kids to believe Santa was a real person/thing, and we certainly wouldn't have laughed and called them stupid if they did actually believe that.

To me, more than being about Santa, the OP seems to highlight the need for good and loving parenting! :)

Absolutely. We are to imitate our Lord whom they will trust beyond us one day. How we love them sets the foundation for them to step into a healthy and loving relationship with Him.

Wherever we fail (and we will) are areas that they will struggle in their faith but we can eliminate as many obstacles as we are able to do.

Thank you :hug:

threebigrocks
Dec 12th 2007, 09:46 PM
That is why I posted the scriptures that I did. A sin is not a sin if a person is not aware of it.

John 9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains
James 4: 17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

If a parent is following traditions of men and thinking that what they are doing is out of love because they are naive - then it truly is not a lie in their heart.

Jesus said: If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

So - based on our Lord's own words - it depends on the intentions of the heart and only our Lord knows a person's heart.

Oh how tempting, but I won't reply. :rolleyes: As I said to Mark - bringing up the lying issue in my post was far from the point I intended to lay out.

My whole point is quit dividing each other over trival matters. If only we could take scripture this deep and to heart.

Seeker of truth
Dec 12th 2007, 10:28 PM
Oh how tempting, but I won't reply. :rolleyes: As I said to Mark - bringing up the lying issue in my post was far from the point I intended to lay out.

My whole point is quit dividing each other over trival matters. If only we could take scripture this deep and to heart.

How I wish I could rep you! :hug:

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 10:39 PM
Oh how tempting, but I won't reply. :rolleyes: As I said to Mark - bringing up the lying issue in my post was far from the point I intended to lay out.

My whole point is quit dividing each other over trival matters. If only we could take scripture this deep and to heart.

I sincerely apologize. It appears that I have completely failed to make some understand what it is my heart is trying to say.

If you did understand you would not say that there is anything trivial in what I am saying.

This issue - the one of the OP and supporting posts - have been to go to the heart of the entire gospel message.

Colossians 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=3&verse=21&version=49&context=verse)
Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart.
Matthew 18:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=3&version=49&context=verse)
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I<3Jesus
Dec 13th 2007, 12:37 AM
Edit: It is not worth it.

xSTEADFASTx
Dec 13th 2007, 03:04 AM
wow this thread has spiraled out of control...

threebigrocks
Dec 13th 2007, 07:22 PM
I sincerely apologize. It appears that I have completely failed to make some understand what it is my heart is trying to say.

If you did understand you would not say that there is anything trivial in what I am saying.

This issue - the one of the OP and supporting posts - have been to go to the heart of the entire gospel message.

Colossians 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=3&verse=21&version=49&context=verse)
Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart.
Matthew 18:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=3&version=49&context=verse)
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sometimes it'd hard to get our ideas accross here. Alls good! :)

And, I agree with you on the purpose of the OP. Too bad we couldn't dig in a different manner, longer, to get to the things that bind instead of seperate.