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Marjiealm
Dec 12th 2007, 05:56 PM
I see so many different posts on different sites who say Elijah & Enoch will be the two witnesses, but I'm not so sure. What are your views on this subject & can you please post scriptures. I know the only way to really know is when this event happens. Just like when the anti-christ is revealed, I have my idea on who he is, but we won't know until the event occurs.

yours in Christ
Marjie

third hero
Dec 12th 2007, 06:07 PM
MY view concerning the two witnesses are simple. Like John fulfilled the prophecies concerning "Elijah" making straight the paths of the Lord, so will two other prophets in Revelation 11. It is my belief that God does not need to have figures that already lived and died return to the ear5th to fulfill other aspects of Bible propphecy before the Lord returns.

As far as the beast is concerned, the one that Talil and Soolara trains behind the scenes, that one is whom I believe will become the Beast. Solara and Talil are too old IMHO to fulfill the requirements. Besides, the Beast will not be able to be defeated, and the last time I checked, both men were defeated at some point diplomatically.

markedward
Dec 12th 2007, 06:44 PM
I don't see the two witnesses as two literal people (and I most certainly don't see them as Elijah and Moses, or Elijah and Enoch). The Torah says that for people to be called into account, two or more witnesses need to be present to make a reckoning. Christ in turn says things similar to this, as well as saying things such as "Wherever two of you are, so will God be there" and so on.

Since I believe most of the Revelation relies upon Old Testament Scripture (the Torah, prophetic imagery, etc.) and Christ's words, I believe the "two witnesses" is a symbolic representation of Christians as a whole (similar to how, at least in my interpretation, "Babylon" represents the corrupt people of Israel as a whole).

(P.S. - We're not allowed to name names on who we believe the anti-christ to be, at least in the sense that they're currently living and we have no real evidence for why they would be the anti-christ other than the mere fact "Hey, he's in a position of power!")

Marjiealm
Dec 12th 2007, 06:51 PM
Thank you Mark for giving me the info on not giving names ... they are all over the web, but if they can't be posted here ... I'll comply with that.
Blessings

markedward
Dec 12th 2007, 06:54 PM
Thank you Mark for giving me the info on not giving names ... they are all over the web, but if they can't be posted here ... I'll comply with that.
BlessingsIt's cool. Sometimes I forget to read the "Rules" thread of each section of the forums too. I think depending on the circumstances, the name-game can change, but for the most part, I think most people just find it as assigning the blame when you have no proof.

Midwest Bob
Dec 12th 2007, 07:02 PM
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Why not let the Bible interpret itself?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Scripture tells us that candlesticks are churches. So the question is which churches? Scripture tells us olive trees are Christians and Jews. So doesn't it stand to reason that the two witnesses are the Christian church (believers) and the Jewish Church (believers).

Can anyone show a different definition of the candlesticks and olive trees based on Scripture? If not then shouldn't we use the definition Scripture gives us? JMHO

third hero
Dec 12th 2007, 07:20 PM
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Why not let the Bible interpret itself?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Scripture tells us that candlesticks are churches. So the question is which churches? Scripture tells us olive trees are Christians and Jews. So doesn't it stand to reason that the two witnesses are the Christian church (believers) and the Jewish Church (believers).

Can anyone show a different definition of the candlesticks and olive trees based on Scripture? If not then shouldn't we use the definition Scripture gives us? JMHO

If one is going to let scripture speak for itself, then let the scriptures do the speaking.

And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Verses 3-4

Notice that these two olive trees and candlesticks are called witnesses of God? So, they can not symbolize an institution, and so the church is ruled out there.

Did you notice that they are wearing mourning clothes? This can not be done by books or laws, but people. Therefore, the Torah and the Laws of Grace are eliminated as well.

And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Verses 5-6

Last time I checked, the church does not have the power to devour their enemies with fire, and tthe torah does ot have the ability to shut up the sky. This was done in the past by prophets, and not by books.

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Verse 7.

Now we see that another figure that people misunderstand is presented, and this figure, the beast of the Abyss, kills the two lampstands. Well, the church can not be killed, because there are too many members. Also, the Torah and the Laws of grace are not fleshly beings, that they can be killed.

And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. verses 8-10

I figure that not very many people actually read these scriptures, and so I present them to you for you to read. As you can see, the two candlesticks, and olive trees are defined within these verses as prophets. They can not be be anything other than what verse 10 clearly identifies them as. They are prophets.

Marjiealm
Dec 12th 2007, 07:30 PM
Third Hero, that was a very interesting interpretation. I have read the scriptures, but for some reason, I wasn't getting it where the two witnesses are concerned. I do know they are to be prophets. But I don't think they will be Elijah or Enoch. I feel one may be Moses, but they other ... I can't even begin to guess.

markedward
Dec 12th 2007, 08:04 PM
So doesn't it stand to reason that the two witnesses are the Christian church (believers) and the Jewish Church (believers).Do you mean Gentiles and Jews, or Christians and Jews? If you mean Gentile and Jews... they're one church. If you mean Christians (Gentile and Jew) and Jews (not-Christians), then Jews aren't really "believers" if they don't follow Christ.

third hero
Dec 12th 2007, 08:08 PM
Do you mean Gentiles and Jews, or Christians and Jews? If you mean Gentile and Jews... they're one church. If you mean Christians (Gentile and Jew) and Jews (not-Christians), then Jews aren't really "believers" if they don't follow Christ.

Agreed. There is no such thing as a Jewish CHurch and a Gentile church. Galatians is clear. There is no longer any Jew or Gentile, becasue all are one in CHrist Jesus. It's like saying thatthere are Black and White churches in AMerica. Well the entire church needs to wake up and smell the coffee, because God is not a respectors of color, or nationality, or creed. There is only one chruch, God's church, and whether you are Jew, Gentile, Black, White, purple with red speck, or Green, the Lord is lord over all of the church, and His church is not divided.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 12th 2007, 08:47 PM
Here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1328308&postcount=3) is what I think John was told and was telling us... - Lk.11

AlainaJ
Dec 12th 2007, 09:07 PM
Agreed. There is no such thing as a Jewish CHurch and a Gentile church. Galatians is clear. There is no longer any Jew or Gentile, becasue all are one in CHrist Jesus. It's like saying thatthere are Black and White churches in AMerica. Well the entire church needs to wake up and smell the coffee, because God is not a respectors of color, or nationality, or creed. There is only one chruch, God's church, and whether you are Jew, Gentile, Black, White, purple with red speck, or Green, the Lord is lord over all of the church, and His church is not divided.
Very well said.......

I beleive their is one body..all must come to salvation the same way...faith in Jesus Christ.

As for the two witnesses...I beleive it is symbolic.

Alaina

John146
Dec 12th 2007, 09:23 PM
If one is going to let scripture speak for itself, then let the scriptures do the speaking.

He did. He showed what candlesticks represented earlier in the book of Revelation (churches - Rev 1:20) and in Romans 11 we see the mention of the good olive tree, which refers to Jew and Gentile believers in the church. I do disagree with Bob as far as saying they represent the Gentile Church and Jewish Church, though, as there is only one church, which includes Jew and Gentile believers.



And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Verses 3-4

Notice that these two olive trees and candlesticks are called witnesses of God? So, they can not symbolize an institution, and so the church is ruled out there.

We are in the church, right? Aren't we witnesses of God? I'm not following you here.




Did you notice that they are wearing mourning clothes? This can not be done by books or laws, but people. Therefore, the Torah and the Laws of Grace are eliminated as well.

And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Verses 5-6

Last time I checked, the church does not have the power to devour their enemies with fire, and tthe torah does ot have the ability to shut up the sky. This was done in the past by prophets, and not by books.

Could it be that you are underestimating the power that the church is supposed to have?

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. - John 14:12-13



And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Verse 7.

Now we see that another figure that people misunderstand is presented, and this figure, the beast of the Abyss, kills the two lampstands. Well, the church can not be killed, because there are too many members. Also, the Torah and the Laws of grace are not fleshly beings, that they can be killed.

Wait, isn't that the same beast as we see here:

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. - Revelation 13:7

Notice the similar wording to Revelation 11:7. These are parallel. The saints are the church. They are the witnesses. I'm not saying every single member of the church is killed, but many are.



And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. verses 8-10

I figure that not very many people actually read these scriptures, and so I present them to you for you to read. As you can see, the two candlesticks, and olive trees are defined within these verses as prophets. They can not be be anything other than what verse 10 clearly identifies them as. They are prophets.

If candlesticks can refer to churches (as they do in Rev 1:20) and witnesses can be referred to as candlesticks, then why can't churches also refer to prophets? Who would think that candlesticks could be equivalent to churches if the text didn't say so? No one. Revelation contains a great deal of figurative language and I think you miss the meaning of a lot of it because of your insistence on interpreting everything literally.

AlainaJ
Dec 12th 2007, 09:28 PM
I wanted to look at the how witness is used in other verses.....Keep an open mind.....meaning just because you heard it doesn't mean it is fact.

Isa.43 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=2731448)

[10] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
[12] I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.Matt.18 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4458216)

[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.John.1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4760438)

[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent tobear witness of that Light.
[15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.Rom.8 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5039493)

[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:Now could we not be the witnesses?

1John.5 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5369027)

[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.Now I am going out of the "box" but are we not to be witnesses to the world? ...are we not along with Jesus, witnesses to God?


Now about the witnesses prophesizing and being raised from the dead.......it that not a picture of salvation and the warring on the saints by the enemy?


God gives His people power through Christ to witness..but the unsaved don't want the message...Jesus says the world hates us and will seek to kill us- by silencing us.


Now even if we die physically...we are still alive in the spirit...for we have eternal life.

We will be raised up to be with the Lord forever...whether at death or at His return.


But imagine....before the Lord comes...the surprise and horror of those who think they killed all the witnesses...and maybe they did physically...but then we rise to be with the Lord.


Now you if a pre-tribber...don't shoot me, this is my opinion:lol: I don't want to start a debate.



God Bless

Saved7
Dec 12th 2007, 10:00 PM
Just like when the anti-christ is revealed, I have my idea on who he is , but we won't know until the event occurs.

yours in Christ
Marjie


You're like the second or third person I heard say this. I don't even have a clue who he is.:confused

Marjiealm
Dec 12th 2007, 10:20 PM
He is the head of the EU, and everywhere you read ... you see his name mentioned. Trying to bring peace to the middle east. I'm not positive, but I believe he is one of the 4of the Middle East Quartet. He was also in attendance at the Annapolis Conference. I have read somewhere that the son of perdition will be there for the conformation of the covenant.

Speaking of the conformation of the Covenant ... does this need to be a signed agreement, or can it be just a verbal one in God's eyes??? I wish I knew the answers ... we will receive all answers once we are with the Lord.
Blessings

Marjiealm
Dec 12th 2007, 10:21 PM
oops, confirmation of the convenant.

sudds
Dec 12th 2007, 10:59 PM
I believe the two witnesses were FAITH and HOPE.

When Jesus was turned over to sin and hanging on a cross, Faith and Hope were dead. (Now keep in mind that the spiritual world didn't know the exact redemptive plan. - I Peter 1:12). Jesus made a choice to endure the cross. If He'd changed His mind, Faith and Hope (for humanity) would have remained dead.

When Jesus was resurrected, Faith and Hope came alive again.

.
1 Corinthians 15:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=14&version=31&context=verse) And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
1 Corinthians 15:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=17&version=31&context=verse) And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins

I Peter 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.


We also have other passages where spiritual traits were separate entities or personalities.

Therefore, I'm convinced that FAITH and HOPE are the two witnesses in Rev 11.

Midwest Bob
Dec 13th 2007, 03:49 AM
If one is going to let scripture speak for itself, then let the scriptures do the speaking.

That is exactly what I did. Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, especially of the Scriptures. Hermeneutics has some excellent time tested rules. One of them is the rule of "Scriptural adjacency." That rule states: When you read something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter and then the book the chapter is in and then the testament the chapter is in and finally relate it to the whole Bible.
Right in the book of Revelations we can find a definition for candlesticks;
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
If seven candlesticks represent seven churches then it stands to reason that two candlesticks would be two churches. The question is what two churches? There is nothing in the book of Revelation that tell us what the olive trees are. So the rule of Scriptural adjacency says that we should study the testament the book is in next. In the New Testament we find that olive trees represent the Jews and Christians:
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches(Jewish) be broken off, and thou(the gentile Church), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou (the Christians) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these (the Jews), which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

So if Scripture states that candlesticks are churches why should I believe differently? If Scripture states that olive trees are Jews and Christians why should I believe differently? JMHO but I believe Scripture makes it clear that candlesticks are churches and the olive trees tell us which churches.


And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Verses 3-4

Notice that these two olive trees and candlesticks are called witnesses of God? So, they can not symbolize an institution, and so the church is ruled out there.

Did you notice that they are wearing mourning clothes?


Lost me friend are you saying we are not witnesses? Is a church a building or a body of believers?

Rev 1:20 The3588 mystery3466 of the3588 seven2033 stars792 which3739 thou sawest1492 in1909 my3450 right hand,1188 and2532 the3588 seven2033 golden5552 candlesticks.3087 The3588 seven2033 stars792 are1526 the angels32 of the3588 seven2033 churches:1577 and2532 the3588 seven2033 candlesticks3087 which3739 thou sawest1492 are1526 the seven2033 churches.1577
From Strong's G1577 ἐκκλησία ekklēsia ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

Believers are the churches, not some brick and mortar building. No reason in the world believers can't be witnesses. I thought all believers were to be witnesses for the Lord.



This can not be done by books or laws, but people. Therefore, the Torah and the Laws of Grace are eliminated as well.
I never said it could be done by books or laws, aren't churches people? Where did this come from?


And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Verses 5-6

Last time I checked, the church does not have the power to devour their enemies with fire, and tthe torah does ot have the ability to shut up the sky. This was done in the past by prophets,

"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." Mat 17:20
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Mat16:19 and let's not forget these verses that John146 quoted John 14:12-13


and not by books.
What is your point? Who said anything about books doing anything?


And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Verse 7.

Now we see that another figure that people misunderstand is presented, and this figure, the beast of the Abyss, kills the two lampstands.
Nothing hard to understand there, Scripture tell's us that a beast is a kindom (Dan7:23), but the beast is a subject for another thread, out of respect for the OP I'll leave it at that.



I figure that not very many people actually read these scriptures, and so I present them to you for you to read.

Why would you insinuate this, I can assure you I have read these Scriptures many, many times and I am sure most who visit this forum have. Just because someone's opinion is different then yours does not mean they haven't read the Scriptures.

If I understand you correctly you take a literal approach to Revelation, on the other hand I see Revelation being written in predominately figurative language. Interpreting a figurative passage literally leads to false doctrine. Interpreting a literal passage figuratively also leads to false doctrine.

JMHO but I think if we are to understand the book of Revelation we must recognize that it is written primarily in figurative language. Will we ever come to an agreement on this? Who knows, but even if we don't it does mean that either one of us does not "actually read these Scriptures?" Not at all, so why imply that is the case?
May God bless your studies!!

third hero
Dec 13th 2007, 06:13 PM
That is exactly what I did. Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, especially of the Scriptures. Hermeneutics has some excellent time tested rules. One of them is the rule of "Scriptural adjacency." That rule states: When you read something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter and then the book the chapter is in and then the testament the chapter is in and finally relate it to the whole Bible.
Right in the book of Revelations we can find a definition for candlesticks;
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Using Hermeneutics when it was not necessary is what leads to errors. For instance, the candlestick in Revelation 1 represented the believers in different area of Eurasia. Hence each candlestick represented the church in that area.

The candlestick in Revelaation 11 is not a seven-fold one, but two individual candlesticks. These were defined the previous verses as the two witnesses, who were clarified a few verses later by John calling them prophets. These two candlestick and olive trees are prophets, just as John wrote them to be. I did not need to go to another portion of the Bible to come to that conclusion, because the auithor makes it abundantly clear, just as I have illustrated, that the two candlesticks are indeed two prophets that are killed in Jerusalem after a period of their ministry has ended. Besides, the ministry of the church has lasted faqr longer than 42 months, which is the period of time in which these two witnesses wil prophecy, shut up the sky, and whack the earth with as many plagues as often as their hearts desire. pray that I am not one of them, because I would seriously wound the earth, becasue my heart is very bitter against the nations. To say that the church, or rather, two sections of the church are the two lampstands is to completely misunderstand the passage and the definitions that are presented within that same passage.

Also, I find that people who do not want to believe that God still uses prophets as the ones with the greatest trouble understanding Revelation 11, mainly because that passage proves the opposite of their beliefs.

Midwest Bob
Dec 14th 2007, 02:39 AM
Using Hermeneutics when it was not necessary is what leads to errors.
Interesting thought, good thing that in this application sound hermeneutics were employed and properly applied (IMHO). Hermeneutics clearly demonstrates that candlesticks are churches. If you choose to believe differently , that's your choice do as you are led, just don't expect me to follow your lead!

For instance, the candlestick in Revelation 1 represented the believers in different area of Eurasia. Hence each candlestick represented the church in that area.
The candlestick in Revelaation 11 is not a seven-fold one, but two individual candlesticks.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Where do you see a sevenfold candlestick? The verse in question says seven candlesticks not a sevenfold candlestick.The candlesticks in both applications are individual candlesticks just the number of candlesticks changes not the definition of a candlestick. I don't see any reason to believe the definition of a candlestick changes just because the number changes.




Also, I find that people who do not want to believe that God still uses prophets as the ones with the greatest trouble understanding Revelation 11, mainly because that passage proves the opposite of their beliefs.
Are you implying that I believe God does not use prophets? If so on what basis are you doing this? Whether one believes God uses prophets are not is irrelevent to our discussion, what is relevant is how Scripture defines candlesticks.
From Rev1:20 "...the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. I have shown a verse that positively identifies candlesticks as churches. Can you show a verse that positively identifies a candlestick as a prophet? If not then I see no reason to change my view, what you choose to believe is entirely up to you.

May God bless your studies!

Nihil Obstat
Dec 14th 2007, 05:48 AM
Again, I want to draw your attentions to the fact that these two are first called "olive trees", and so we are meant to understand their identity not from Rev. 1:20, but from Zech. ch.4... The vision that Zechariah had in this chapter was of two olive trees directly connected (v.12) to a lampstand with seven lamps, so that the lampstand would never be without oil / fuel, and the context was rebuilding and finishing the temple (vv.6-7, 9-10). The two olive trees were symbolic, and interpreted within the vision as Zerubbabel and Joshua, respectfully the governor and the high priest of Jerusalem (v.14). The seven lamps were symbolic, and also interpreted within the vision as "the eyes of the LORD, which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth" (v.10). The lampstand, then, is symbolic of God's witness in the midst of wicked men (cp. Matt. 5:14; Rev. 1:20; etc); "lampstand" doesn't automatically mean to us "church" (Rev. 2:5).

Understanding this OT passage as we are meant to, we then bring this interpretation with us to Rev. 11:3-13, because both the Lord and John were purposefully pointing back to this vision of Zechariah's, that the hearer would hear and understand. I believe that John was being told that the two witnesses will be two Jewish men - just as in Zechariah's vision - the governor and the high priest within Jerusalem in the last 3.5 years (though they may not be acknowledged as so before the eyes of men...). This is correct hermeneutics when studying the book of Revelation, as it is practically overflowing with OT references, and all for important reasons.

To be quite honest, Revelation really isn't all that symbolic. When there's a thing in John's vision that is meant to be symbolic, it's always interpreted for him, or he interprets it for the reader by using OT imagery (and God helped him out by using OT imagery in the vision He gave him). It's meant to be simple to understand. Truly, it is! We are not to just think of everything he sees as symbolic, with some "deep, secret" meaning behind it - that's Greek thinking, not God's or John's thinking. If we would but obey God's command to read out loud to our children the Scriptures (Rev. 1:3), especially the Old Testament (Deut. 4:9; 6:6-9), this book would be quite easy to figure out. My wife and I started a tradition of reading out loud to our daughter a chapter or two from the OT, and from the NT, and we're going straight through, talking about it before, during, and after - and when we reach the end, we simply start over. I encourage you all to do likewise. It's a book, and we need to read it like we read every other book - from beginning to end.

- Lk.11

Midwest Bob
Dec 14th 2007, 01:41 PM
Again, I want to draw your attentions to the fact that these two are first called "olive trees", and so we are meant to understand their identity not from Rev. 1:20, but from Zech. ch.4... The vision that Zechariah had in this chapter was of two olive trees directly connected (v.12) to a lampstand with seven lamps, so that the lampstand would never be without oil / fuel, and the context was rebuilding and finishing the temple (vv.6-7, 9-10). The two olive trees were symbolic, and interpreted within the vision as Zerubbabel and Joshua, respectfully the governor and the high priest of Jerusalem (v.14). The seven lamps were symbolic, and also interpreted within the vision as "the eyes of the LORD, which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth" (v.10). The lampstand, then, is symbolic of God's witness in the midst of wicked men (cp. Matt. 5:14; Rev. 1:20; etc); "lampstand" doesn't automatically mean to us "church" (Rev. 2:5).

Understanding this OT passage as we are meant to, we then bring this interpretation with us to Rev. 11:3-13, because both the Lord and John were purposefully pointing back to this vision of Zechariah's, that the hearer would hear and understand. I believe that John was being told that the two witnesses will be two Jewish men - just as in Zechariah's vision - the governor and the high priest within Jerusalem in the last 3.5 years (though they may not be acknowledged as so before the eyes of men...). This is correct hermeneutics when studying the book of Revelation, as it is practically overflowing with OT references, and all for important reasons.

To be quite honest, Revelation really isn't all that symbolic. When there's a thing in John's vision that is meant to be symbolic, it's always interpreted for him, or he interprets it for the reader by using OT imagery (and God helped him out by using OT imagery in the vision He gave him). It's meant to be simple to understand. Truly, it is! We are not to just think of everything he sees as symbolic, with some "deep, secret" meaning behind it - that's Greek thinking, not God's or John's thinking. If we would but obey God's command to read out loud to our children the Scriptures (Rev. 1:3), especially the Old Testament (Deut. 4:9; 6:6-9), this book would be quite easy to figure out. My wife and I started a tradition of reading out loud to our daughter a chapter or two from the OT, and from the NT, and we're going straight through, talking about it before, during, and after - and when we reach the end, we simply start over. I encourage you all to do likewise. It's a book, and we need to read it like we read every other book - from beginning to end.

- Lk.11

Hermeneutics has some excellent time tested rules. One of them is the rule of "Scriptural adjacency." That rule states: When you read something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter and then the book the chapter is in and then the testament the chapter is in and finally relate it to the whole Bible.

In this application we find definitions for the term candlesticks in the Book of Rev. We find a definition for olive trees in Romans. If we observe the rule of scriptural adjacency I see no reason to go to the Old Testament to find out what candlesticks and olive trees are when right in Rev we are given a definition for candlesticks, and Romans gives us a definition for olive trees.

John146
Dec 14th 2007, 10:20 PM
Again, I want to draw your attentions to the fact that these two are first called "olive trees", and so we are meant to understand their identity not from Rev. 1:20, but from Zech. ch.4... The vision that Zechariah had in this chapter was of two olive trees directly connected (v.12) to a lampstand with seven lamps, so that the lampstand would never be without oil / fuel, and the context was rebuilding and finishing the temple (vv.6-7, 9-10). The two olive trees were symbolic, and interpreted within the vision as Zerubbabel and Joshua, respectfully the governor and the high priest of Jerusalem (v.14). The seven lamps were symbolic, and also interpreted within the vision as "the eyes of the LORD, which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth" (v.10). The lampstand, then, is symbolic of God's witness in the midst of wicked men (cp. Matt. 5:14; Rev. 1:20; etc); "lampstand" doesn't automatically mean to us "church" (Rev. 2:5).

Understanding this OT passage as we are meant to, we then bring this interpretation with us to Rev. 11:3-13, because both the Lord and John were purposefully pointing back to this vision of Zechariah's, that the hearer would hear and understand. I believe that John was being told that the two witnesses will be two Jewish men - just as in Zechariah's vision - the governor and the high priest within Jerusalem in the last 3.5 years (though they may not be acknowledged as so before the eyes of men...). This is correct hermeneutics when studying the book of Revelation, as it is practically overflowing with OT references, and all for important reasons.

To be quite honest, Revelation really isn't all that symbolic. When there's a thing in John's vision that is meant to be symbolic, it's always interpreted for him, or he interprets it for the reader by using OT imagery (and God helped him out by using OT imagery in the vision He gave him). It's meant to be simple to understand. Truly, it is! We are not to just think of everything he sees as symbolic, with some "deep, secret" meaning behind it - that's Greek thinking, not God's or John's thinking. If we would but obey God's command to read out loud to our children the Scriptures (Rev. 1:3), especially the Old Testament (Deut. 4:9; 6:6-9), this book would be quite easy to figure out. My wife and I started a tradition of reading out loud to our daughter a chapter or two from the OT, and from the NT, and we're going straight through, talking about it before, during, and after - and when we reach the end, we simply start over. I encourage you all to do likewise. It's a book, and we need to read it like we read every other book - from beginning to end.

- Lk.11

It's so good to know that you have the book of Revelation all figured out. You can enlighten us all so that we don't have to spend hours studying it. How cool is that? And since it's so easy to understand I'm sure you would have no trouble giving me the identity of the two horns of the beast that comes up out of the earth (Rev 13:11), what or who exactly the seven heads and ten horns of the dragon and beast represent, who the beast is, who the second beast/false prophet is, who or what mystery Babylon is, and who or what the two witnesses are. So, please enlighten us all with the identities of all these entities, if you wouldn't mind, since it's obviously so easy to figure out.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 14th 2007, 11:37 PM
If we observe the rule of scriptural adjacency I see no reason to go to the Old Testament to find out what candlesticks and olive trees are when right in Rev we are given a definition for candlesticks, and Romans gives us a definition for olive trees.

One thing that I see wrong with this right away... What does Jesus' warning mean in Rev. 2:5 that He "will come to [Ephesus] quickly and remove [their] lampstand from its place"? That He will keep them from being a gathering of believers, or that He will keep them from being a prominent witness - in the midst of darkness - to what it means to be a Christ follower? I'd say the latter, wouldn't you? So "lampstand" doesn't necessarily mean church... these seven churches are only lampstands in that they witness to the world Christ.

How do you understand Rev. 2:5? - Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Dec 15th 2007, 02:45 AM
It's so good to know that you have the book of Revelation all figured out. You can enlighten us all so that we don't have to spend hours studying it. How cool is that? And since it's so easy to understand I'm sure you would have no trouble giving me the identity of the two horns of the beast that comes up out of the earth (Rev 13:11), what or who exactly the seven heads and ten horns of the dragon and beast represent, who the beast is, who the second beast/false prophet is, who or what mystery Babylon is, and who or what the two witnesses are. So, please enlighten us all with the identities of all these entities, if you wouldn't mind, since it's obviously so easy to figure out.

Well, there's two things that I'd like to address: your questions, and your sarcasm. You are a steward of the kingdom of God, and a child of God, and I, your brother in Christ. Cast that sarcastic spirit, with its cutting and belittling words, into the flame, and pick up and diligently implement the gift of encouragement from the Spirit. Edify the body; edify me in your replies. Ask questions that provoke, not to back-biting, but to holiness. Provoke me to perfection in your responses by being perfect as our Father is perfect. There is no place for sarcasm here - this is a holy place, for God is here. And God dwells within me; therefore do not speak ill of me, but bless. These forums (which is Latin for "marketplace") is unlike meeting face to face: you can think about what you say before pressing the "submit" button, where anyone can read what you have written - and on top of that, you can edit what you have posted. You're not just talking to me, but you're talking loud enough for everyone in the world to hear, and by your words you testify of who you know Jesus to be, and what He is like. Be cautious with how you use your words, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matt. 12:37). I have been sarcastic and even openly hostile toward other believers in this place before, but I always seek their forgiveness. We only receive God's mercy when we first seek the mercy of our brethren whom we have wronged (Matt. 5:23-26), and we will only be forgiven by God as we forgive others (Matt. 6:12, 14-15). I forgive you for your sarcastic remarks toward me. Please take what I have said to you to heart.

Now, concerning your questions...

1) the second beast's two horns:

Good question! I never even considered the possibility that the Antichrist's two horns were symbolic of anything further than what John says of them, that they are likened to a lamb's two horns (which I took to mean, a false Lamb; the anti-Lamb). Thank you for posing this question - I'll give it some thought. An immediate guess would be "king" and "priest", denoting the Antichrist's governmental position (the language of the Psalms), but that's just what ran through my head without any praying or studying over the matter. Believing that all the other horns mentioned in this book are symbolic, I'm surprised that I never thought about his two horns. Thank you for asking! (On the other hand, we want to keep from over-symbolizing...)

2) the dragon's seven crowned heads and ten horns:

I believe that the seven crowned heads of the dragon, who is Satan (Rev. 12:9), are symbolic of the seven demonic principalities that have oppressed the nation of Israel: i) the principality over Egypt, ii) the principality over Assyria, iii) the principality over Babylon, iv) the principality over Media-Persia, v) the principality over Greece, vi) the principality over Rome, and vii) the principality over Turkey. These governmental demons are kings, which is why they're crowned. The ten horns, six heads each having one and one head having four (Greece), are the kingdoms that these principalities ruled over.

3) the first beast's seven heads and ten crowned horns:

These are interpreted for John in Rev. 17, so it's a bit easier, and it also helps with understanding the symbolism of the dragon's heads and horns (since they're so very similar). We're told that the seven heads are seven mountains. These mountains are kingdoms / temples (cp. Dan. 2:35, 44-45), where the principalities ("kings" - Rev. 17:10; Dan. 7:17) are worshiped. The crowned horns are human kings from ten literal kingdoms. I like the tie-in with Ps. 83:1-8, and I personally believe the connection has its roots in Gen. 15:18-21. The interpretation given in Rev. 17, when taken a level higher, is how I came to understand the dragon's heads and horns.

4) the first beast:

He is the resuscitated old Roman principality, who was beheaded by Allah (Rev. 13:3), the demonic principality over the Ottoman empire. I go more into detail here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=108570).

5) the second beast / false prophet:

He is the Antichrist. See #4's link, and here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100950).

6) MYSTERY BABYLON:

This is the literal city Babylon, which will one day be rebuilt (Zech. 5:11). This city's name is written on the woman's forehead (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1427301&postcount=2), because it is who she calls "god" - the harlot is Israel (cp. Eze. 16:44).

7) the two witnesses:

See, well, my responses in this thread. They will be the Jewish governor and high priest in Jerusalem.

- Lk.11

Kahtar
Dec 15th 2007, 12:57 PM
It's so good to know that you have the book of Revelation all figured out. You can enlighten us all so that we don't have to spend hours studying it. How cool is that? And since it's so easy to understand I'm sure you would have no trouble giving me the identity of the two horns of the beast that comes up out of the earth (Rev 13:11), what or who exactly the seven heads and ten horns of the dragon and beast represent, who the beast is, who the second beast/false prophet is, who or what mystery Babylon is, and who or what the two witnesses are. So, please enlighten us all with the identities of all these entities, if you wouldn't mind, since it's obviously so easy to figure out.This is entirely unnecessary. Discuss the topic, not each other's attributes.

John146
Dec 16th 2007, 09:47 PM
Well, there's two things that I'd like to address: your questions, and your sarcasm. You are a steward of the kingdom of God, and a child of God, and I, your brother in Christ. Cast that sarcastic spirit, with its cutting and belittling words, into the flame, and pick up and diligently implement the gift of encouragement from the Spirit. Edify the body; edify me in your replies. Ask questions that provoke, not to back-biting, but to holiness. Provoke me to perfection in your responses by being perfect as our Father is perfect. There is no place for sarcasm here - this is a holy place, for God is here. And God dwells within me; therefore do not speak ill of me, but bless. These forums (which is Latin for "marketplace") is unlike meeting face to face: you can think about what you say before pressing the "submit" button, where anyone can read what you have written - and on top of that, you can edit what you have posted. You're not just talking to me, but you're talking loud enough for everyone in the world to hear, and by your words you testify of who you know Jesus to be, and what He is like. Be cautious with how you use your words, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matt. 12:37). I have been sarcastic and even openly hostile toward other believers in this place before, but I always seek their forgiveness. We only receive God's mercy when we first seek the mercy of our brethren whom we have wronged (Matt. 5:23-26), and we will only be forgiven by God as we forgive others (Matt. 6:12, 14-15). I forgive you for your sarcastic remarks toward me. Please take what I have said to you to heart.

It would have been better for me to respond in a non-sarcastic way and I apologize for that, but I do not apologize for calling you out in regards to the things you said. I personally have no problem admitting that Revelation is NOT easy to understand. So, just like you forgive me, I forgive you for your pridefulness in saying that Revelation is so easy to understand despite the fact that godly men who have spent hours and hours studying it still can't agree on their interpretations. I also forgive you for your insults aimed at those who interpret portions of the book symbolically and claiming that they are using Greek thinking and not God thinking.



Now, concerning your questions...

1) the second beast's two horns:

Good question! I never even considered the possibility that the Antichrist's two horns were symbolic of anything further than what John says of them, that they are likened to a lamb's two horns (which I took to mean, a false Lamb; the anti-Lamb). Thank you for posing this question - I'll give it some thought. An immediate guess would be "king" and "priest", denoting the Antichrist's governmental position (the language of the Psalms), but that's just what ran through my head without any praying or studying over the matter. Believing that all the other horns mentioned in this book are symbolic, I'm surprised that I never thought about his two horns. Thank you for asking! (On the other hand, we want to keep from over-symbolizing...)

Okay, now this illustrates the problem that I had with your other post in the first place. I thought you were saying this was easy to understand? If it truly is as easy to understand as what you were implying I would have thought you would know the answer to this question rather than having to guess. Do you see my point now?




2) the dragon's seven crowned heads and ten horns:

I believe that the seven crowned heads of the dragon, who is Satan (Rev. 12:9), are symbolic of the seven demonic principalities that have oppressed the nation of Israel: i) the principality over Egypt, ii) the principality over Assyria, iii) the principality over Babylon, iv) the principality over Media-Persia, v) the principality over Greece, vi) the principality over Rome, and vii) the principality over Turkey. These governmental demons are kings, which is why they're crowned. The ten horns, six heads each having one and one head having four (Greece), are the kingdoms that these principalities ruled over.

3) the first beast's seven heads and ten crowned horns:

These are interpreted for John in Rev. 17, so it's a bit easier, and it also helps with understanding the symbolism of the dragon's heads and horns (since they're so very similar). We're told that the seven heads are seven mountains. These mountains are kingdoms / temples (cp. Dan. 2:35, 44-45), where the principalities ("kings" - Rev. 17:10; Dan. 7:17) are worshiped. The crowned horns are human kings from ten literal kingdoms. I like the tie-in with Ps. 83:1-8, and I personally believe the connection has its roots in Gen. 15:18-21. The interpretation given in Rev. 17, when taken a level higher, is how I came to understand the dragon's heads and horns.

4) the first beast:

He is the resuscitated old Roman principality, who was beheaded by Allah (Rev. 13:3), the demonic principality over the Ottoman empire. I go more into detail here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=108570).

5) the second beast / false prophet:

He is the Antichrist. See #4's link, and here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100950).

6) MYSTERY BABYLON:

This is the literal city Babylon, which will one day be rebuilt (Zech. 5:11). This city's name is written on the woman's forehead (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1427301&postcount=2), because it is who she calls "god" - the harlot is Israel (cp. Eze. 16:44).

7) the two witnesses:

See, well, my responses in this thread. They will be the Jewish governor and high priest in Jerusalem.

- Lk.11

Thanks for your response. I don't agree with your interpretations, but I do appreciate you taking the time to give your interpretation of each of those entities.

danield
Dec 17th 2007, 04:11 AM
I too feel certain that the two witnesses are not churches. I also think that when someone doesn’t understand the scriptures they quickly jump to interpretations/symbolism and draw conclusions from other parts of the Bible to make things fit their point of view. I personally think revelations will be crystal clear when it all happens in order to give great glory to God. Things will come to pass to once in for all extinguish all doubt who is king of kings. And the passage of events will not have to be pieced together in order to understand what has happened. These two men, which I also doubt that they are any of the past prophets, but will be new prophets of our time and they will die in Jerusalem, however I am not sold that they have to be Jews or rulers of Jerusalem.

Astrongerthanhe I pretty much agree with you about the 2 witness being individual people but I really don’t think they will be

"They will be the Jewish governor and high priest in Jerusalem”

mainly because they will be very poor. Also note that their power will not come from people but from the lord.

third hero One thing that caught me off guard in your post was this passage



pray that I am not one of them, because I would seriously wound the earth, becasue my heart is very bitter against the nations.

I personally have felt that these 2 men who ate the scroll which tasted sweet, but after swallowing it turned their stomachs sour, loved the people of the earth. And it is the devastation of the people of the earth that is making them sick. I have never thought that these two men’s heart would be bitter against the nations. :confused

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2007, 04:29 AM
I forgive you for your pridefulness in saying that Revelation is so easy to understand despite the fact that godly men who have spent hours and hours studying it still can't agree on their interpretations.

What I say this isn't out of pride. I'm saying this because it's true! For far too long people have had it ingrained into their minds that Revelation is too hard to understand. What I'm doing is removing that veil for you all. Don't believe that this book is too hard to understand. It's God's word about Jesus and He gave it for His children to understand (Rev. 1:1-3).


I also forgive you for your insults aimed at those who interpret portions of the book symbolically and claiming that they are using Greek thinking and not God thinking.

I'm not "aiming" insults, but a shining light. Historically, these so-called secret, hidden, higher "spiritual" meanings truly came from the Greek pagan theologians, who infiltrated their interpretive methods into Jewish culture, which happened in between the time of the writing of Malachi and Jesus' birth, during the 400 years of God's silence.


Okay, now this illustrates the problem that I had with your other post in the first place. I thought you were saying this was easy to understand? If it truly is as easy to understand as what you were implying I would have thought you would know the answer to this question rather than having to guess. Do you see my point now?

It is easy to understand. I've just never thought about the second beast's two horns before being symbolic of anything further than what John says of them - that they're like a lamb's two horns. And I meant what I said: I'll give it some prayer and thought, and get back with you. I do like what I said about them, though...


Thanks for your response. I don't agree with your interpretations, but I do appreciate you taking the time to give your interpretation of each of those entities.

No problem. I truly do enjoy this! - Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2007, 04:32 AM
Astrongerthanhe I pretty much agree with you about the 2 witness being individual people but I really don’t think they will be

"the Jewish governor and high priest in Jerusalem"

mainly because they will be very poor. Also note that their power will not come from people but from the lord.

I agree with you, which was why I don't think that they will be recognized as so before men, but only before God, as John the Baptist was - if the system wasn't corrupted, he would have been the high priest, which was why Jesus went to him to be baptized into His high priestly role (cp. Matt. 3:15). - Lk.11

Soj
Dec 17th 2007, 05:00 AM
I see so many different posts on different sites who say Elijah & Enoch will be the two witnesses, but I'm not so sure. What are your views on this subject & can you please post scriptures. I know the only way to really know is when this event happens. Just like when the anti-christ is revealed, I have my idea on who he is, but we won't know until the event occurs.They will be Moses and Elijah! :cool:

Will post some scriptural proof soon...

Soj
Dec 18th 2007, 10:33 AM
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4-7 will yield the proper interpretation of who these two are:

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Compare with Zechariah 4:11-14

Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The two witnesses are not two books, nations, or any other private interpretation, they are "two anointed ones."


The two olive trees are "the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Elijah stood by the Lord of the whole earth...
1 Kings 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.
Moses stood by the Lord of the whole earth...
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:



These two anointed ones have the power to shut heaven that it rain not in the days of their prophesy (Rev 11:6)...
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
(three years and six months)
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(three years and six months)
James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.



These two anointed ones have the power to destroy their enemies with fire (Rev 11:5)...
2 Kings 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Numbers 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. 29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. 30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. 31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. 35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. 36 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,


These two anointed ones have the power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues (Rev 11:6)...
Exodus 7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. 15 Get thee unto Pharaoh in the morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou shalt stand by the river's brink against he come; and the rod which was turned to a serpent shalt thou take in thine hand. 16 And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear. 17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. 18 And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.


Both Moses and Elijah were present on the Mount of Transfiguration talking to Christ...

Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Moses and Elijah are the last two human beings mentioned in the Old Testament, and they are mentioned in connection with Mt Sinai and the Lord Jesus Christ...

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

third hero
Dec 18th 2007, 09:15 PM
Soj,
This is nothing more than what the Pharisees thought concerning the one in the wilderness, with the spirit of Elijah. Jesus identified him as John the Baptist, a man who, like Moses and Elijah, was born, and lived.

God does not need to reincarnate or reanimate a person who has done their job already.

Elijah was standing over the earth, and yet, in the end, he was resting with the Lord, in heaven. The same thing for Moses. Their ministries were over when they left this earth.

God can raise up rocks to fulfill the two lampstands. I am not so quick to think that God, who has in the past, used wholely new people to fulfill prophecy that has the names of older prophets attached to them. He will do so again. Remember, the Lord is the creator, and not the reanimator. He does not have to rehash old people.

Moses died once, why would God ask him to do something that not even Lord Jesus would have to do. Remember, the two lampstands die. Moses died once, and I believe that God would be cruel to have him die twice. Only the wicked are to die twice, and not the righteous.

This is one of the myriad of reasons why I say that God will raise two different people, men who will be, like most true prophets, trained by Him, and prepared for the 3.5 year ministry, which will ravage the world.

Their names? I do not know, and neither do you.

danield
Dec 19th 2007, 01:23 AM
third hero I am in full agreement with your post #34. I also think there is no other scripture needed besides revelations 10 and 11 to understand what is to happen. Revelations calls Jesus by name and his role of return in it. If Mosses and Elijah were to be the two lamp stands then I feel certain John would have recognized these 2 individuals and called them by name mainly because it would be a major factor in how we are to recognize the 2 men. Just because a previous passage in the old testament calls them lamp stands doesn’t mean that the next time a great man of God comes along it has to be a reincarnation of them nor does it make the name of Mosses or Elijah synonymous with the lampstand of God every time it is used in the Bible. I feel certain that these two witnesses will be considered as great as Mosses and Elijah in times to come and that is why the term lampstand is used. I think the word lampstand or olive tree represents the expression of “a great man of God” because it will take a great man of God to over come the many trials they will face. Remember they will be in sack cloth and facing some really horrible opposition which will over take them 3.5 years after their witnessing starts.

third hero
Dec 19th 2007, 05:11 AM
danield,
I would like to add the FACT that John would recognize Moses and Elijah, mainly because he had seen them in their glorified forms when Jesus transfigured Himself in front of Peter, James and ....JOHN. Of course he would recognize those two. The fact that he ddn't mention them by name is evidence enough that those two are not the two lampstands that are written about in Revelation 11.

Junietta
Dec 20th 2007, 07:50 PM
The Two Witnesses The Word and the Spirit ? ? ?

“Ye search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: “ Rom 8:16

They are powerful forces at work in our world.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Zech 4:6

Rev. 12:6 Who are "they" who feed the woman (the church during the dark ages)?
Who else but the Two Witnesses from the previous chapter ?

What could the food be but the Bread of Life, the Word, and the Living Water, the Holy Spirit ? ? ?

Add up all the clues. Very possible answer.

Love,
Junietta
Yes, I am still among the living and keeping busy. P T L

ShirleyFord
Dec 20th 2007, 08:17 PM
Love,
Junietta
Yes, I am still among the living and keeping busy. P T L


Hey my dear sister Junietta! :pp So good to see and hear from you!

How ya been doing?

Love you...:kiss:


Shirley

ShirleyFord
Dec 21st 2007, 12:41 AM
The Two Witnesses The Word and the Spirit ? ? ?

“Ye search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: “ Rom 8:16

They are powerful forces at work in our world.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Zech 4:6

Rev. 12:6 Who are "they" who feed the woman (the church during the dark ages)?
Who else but the Two Witnesses from the previous chapter ?

What could the food be but the Bread of Life, the Word, and the Living Water, the Holy Spirit ? ? ?

Add up all the clues. Very possible answer.



Junietta,

I agree with you that the two witnesses are the Word and the Spirit. I agree with all of your comments.

I was at work when I clicked on to the forum here and saw where you had posted. I only had time to skim over your post and post a quick reply before I had another client.

But just now at home, I was taking my time reading your post. And I was truly blessed. Thanks dear, precious sister for posting it. You are truly a blessing!


Thank God that He is taking good care of you and using you mightily.


Shirley

David Taylor
Dec 21st 2007, 02:08 AM
danield,
I would like to add the FACT that John would recognize Moses and Elijah, mainly because he had seen them in their glorified forms when Jesus transfigured Himself in front of Peter, James and ....JOHN. Of course he would recognize those two. The fact that he ddn't mention them by name is evidence enough that those two are not the two lampstands that are written about in Revelation 11.


Hhhhmmm....Let's test what ThirdHeroe says above, with the scriptures.

Matthew 17:1 "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah. "



Mark 9:2 "And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."


Luke 9:28 "And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elijah: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah: not knowing what he said."



Yep, ThirdHeroe was correct, according to the scriptures.

John saw and recognized and was familiar with both Moses and Elijah. No doubt John knew who they were, and had no problems recognizing them.

Good job 3H!

sudds
Dec 22nd 2007, 07:01 PM
I think Junietta is on the right track, but being more specific, I still think Faith and Hope are the two witnesses. Let's think about it. We know that God is Love.

I John 4:8. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Anywhere in this universe where love is, there God is. We, as Christians, can go a little further and say we have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us. The point is that love (God) can indwell in everyone at the same time.

The same is true with Faith and Hope. Again, let me say (per my previous post). If Jesus had not died for us, there would be NO HOPE or NO FAITH.
Faith and Hope can be easily inserted as the "two witnesses." God is a spirit and a separate personality and God is love.....so why couldn't Faith and Hope be also? Let's think spiritual about the spiritual book of Revelation.

I Corinthians 13:13 And now, these three remain, faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Junietta
Dec 23rd 2007, 03:34 PM
What does a witness do ? What are faith and hope ?

Faith and hope do not hear witness. They are the result of having been given knowledge of God by the two witnesses, The Word and The Spirit.

How else can we know anything about God except by the Word and the Spirit ?

Codger
Dec 23rd 2007, 04:48 PM
I don't see the two witnesses as two literal people (and I most certainly don't see them as Elijah and Moses, or Elijah and Enoch). The Torah says that for people to be called into account, two or more witnesses need to be present to make a reckoning. Christ in turn says things similar to this, as well as saying things such as "Wherever two of you are, so will God be there" and so on.

Since I believe most of the Revelation relies upon Old Testament Scripture (the Torah, prophetic imagery, etc.) and Christ's words, I believe the "two witnesses" is a symbolic representation of Christians as a whole (similar to how, at least in my interpretation, "Babylon" represents the corrupt people of Israel as a whole).

(P.S. - We're not allowed to name names on who we believe the anti-christ to be, at least in the sense that they're currently living and we have no real evidence for why they would be the anti-christ other than the mere fact "Hey, he's in a position of power!")

The two witnesses are symbolic.... The two witnesses in the Old Covenant were the Law and the Prophets. The two witnesses in the New Covenant are the Spirit and the Bride.

sudds
Dec 23rd 2007, 11:27 PM
Junietta
What does a witness do ? What are faith and hope ?

Faith and hope do not hear witness. They are the result of having been given knowledge of God by the two witnesses, The Word and The Spirit.

How else can we know anything about God except by the Word and the Spirit ?


The Word is Jesus Christ (John 1:1, 14). The Spirit is God (John 4:24).

No, they (Word and Spirit) don't fit the Rev 11 definition of the two witnesses...i.e. They were dead, yet revived......and God revived them.....Would God revive Himself??

I think that my faith and my hope are certainly my witnesses of my Christianity, so I disagree with you.

I know it's hard to comprehend, but it seems that faith and hope were personified. We have examples where a lying spirit was personified and indwelled in 400 false priest at the same time (I Kings 22:22). With God, all things are possible

Thanks for the reply.

ShirleyFord
Dec 24th 2007, 02:49 AM
The Word is Jesus Christ (John 1:1, 14). The Spirit is God (John 4:24).

No, they (Word and Spirit) don't fit the Rev 11 definition of the two witnesses...i.e. They were dead, yet revived......and God revived them.....Would God revive Himself??

I think that my faith and my hope are certainly my witnesses of my Christianity, so I disagree with you.

I know it's hard to comprehend, but it seems that faith and hope were personified. We have examples where a lying spirit was personified and indwelled in 400 false priest at the same time (I Kings 22:22). With God, all things are possible

Thanks for the reply.

2 Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Junietta
Dec 24th 2007, 04:30 AM
Thank you Shirley. That's good.

The scenes of the two witnesses being killed and coming back to life will take place during the final moments before this present earth is destroyed and the new heaven and earth come into being.

Coming at such a time it would seem that the Lord will leave no doubt whatsoever that the Word and the Spirit are very real and powerful and that evil forces cannot win. So though the Word and Spirit usually are invisible, these scenes coming at such a dramatic final ending of this present world, God will make them appear in some visible form to make sure all will see and understand.

This will likely be the last event before Jesus will appear in the clouds and gather the saints to glory. Then the earth and all the remaining evil ones will be destroyed. Rev. 14 shows the sequence of those closing moments.

Yes, the Lord Jesus once was killed and revived. So He will do it again in the form of the Two Witnesses.

My heart's Desire
Dec 24th 2007, 04:32 AM
How can something be symbolic and be able to send plagues and stuff. That doesn't make sense. They have to be people just as Joshua was in the lampstand story

Marjiealm
Dec 27th 2007, 03:21 PM
I agree with you MHD. These two have to be literal people, from what I've read in God's Word. They send plague's. Plus, it states that they will lie in the streets for 3 days so all will look upon them.



Rev 11:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=8&version=kjv#8) And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev 11:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=9&version=kjv#9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Rev 11:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=10&version=kjv#10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev 11:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=11&version=kjv#11) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev 11:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=12&version=kjv#12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 11:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=13&version=kjv#13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

John146
Dec 28th 2007, 09:39 PM
I think Junietta is on the right track, but being more specific, I still think Faith and Hope are the two witnesses. Let's think about it. We know that God is Love.

I John 4:8. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Anywhere in this universe where love is, there God is. We, as Christians, can go a little further and say we have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us. The point is that love (God) can indwell in everyone at the same time.

The same is true with Faith and Hope. Again, let me say (per my previous post). If Jesus had not died for us, there would be NO HOPE or NO FAITH.
Faith and Hope can be easily inserted as the "two witnesses." God is a spirit and a separate personality and God is love.....so why couldn't Faith and Hope be also? Let's think spiritual about the spiritual book of Revelation.

I Corinthians 13:13 And now, these three remain, faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

The two witnesses are to be overcome and killed (Rev 11:7) and will have dead bodies (Rev 11:8-9). They will be resurrected and then they will ascend up to heaven in a cloud (Rev 11:11-12). How can all of those things describe faith and hope?

Francine
Dec 28th 2007, 10:53 PM
How can something be symbolic and be able to send plagues and stuff. That doesn't make sense. They have to be people just as Joshua was in the lampstand story

The two witnesses are the Old and New Testament. The plagues are to be sent by God, even if the witnesses were men. Unless you attribute plague-sending powers to mere men.

SurfsUp
Dec 29th 2007, 01:22 AM
Haven't read the previous posts -- will simply offer that the 2 witnesses are simpy Moses & Elijah

ShirleyFord
Dec 29th 2007, 01:36 AM
Haven't read the previous posts -- will simply offer that the 2 witnesses are simpy Moses & Elijah

But Revelation 11 doesn't say that the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. So why would you believe they are?


Shirley

SurfsUp
Dec 29th 2007, 01:42 AM
Clearly they are 2 people, right? Now look @ the 4 miracles they perform & you'll see Moses & Elijah were the only 2 to ever do likewise

Both were @ the Transfiguration

Both are Jewish

Both had ministries that were "paused"

1 would be hard pressed to find a more suitable Biblical answer

ShirleyFord
Dec 29th 2007, 02:26 AM
Clearly they are 2 people, right? Now look @ the 4 miracles they perform & you'll see Moses & Elijah were the only 2 to ever do likewise

Both were @ the Transfiguration

Both are Jewish

Both had ministries that were "paused"

1 would be hard pressed to find a more suitable Biblical answer

But Revelation 11 doesn't say that the two witnesses were at the transfiguration or that the two witnesses were Jewish or that the ministries of the two witnesses were paused.

Neither of the ministries of Moses and Elijah were "paused" to be continued at a later time. They both finished the work in their lifetime that God called them to do.

Peter, James and John were shown Moses and Elijah in a vision when they also saw Jesus transfiqured.

Soj
Dec 29th 2007, 03:14 AM
But Revelation 11 doesn't say that the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. So why would you believe they are?Neither does the book of Jonah say that the great fish was a "whale"...

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Yet when we cross reference scripture with scripture we find it identified as a whale in the book of Matthew...

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


So it is not necessary that Revelation 11 identify who the two witnesses are, as we have plenty of other scriptures that do, when cross referenced, as has been previously demonstrated in this thread. :)

ShirleyFord
Dec 29th 2007, 03:44 AM
Neither does the book of Jonah say that the great fish was a "whale"...

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Yet when we cross reference scripture with scripture we find it identified as a whale in the book of Matthew...

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


So it is not necessary that Revelation 11 identify who the two witnesses are, as we have plenty of other scriptures that do, when cross referenced, as has been previously demonstrated in this thread. :)

I don't see your point. Jesus shows that Jonah being in the whale's belly 3 days and 3 nights pointed to His being dead and buried for 3 days and three nights.

Jesus names the man Jonah just as the book of Jonah did at the time it happened. Jesus tells that Jonah was swallowed by a whale. Jonah calls the whale "a great fish". A whale is a great big fish. Jesus should know what swallowed Jonah. He is the One who prepared the great fish. Jesus says the same thing that is written in Jonah about Jonah staying in the belly of the whale the three days and nights.

But there are no kind of like details in Revelation 11 or elsewhere in the Bible identifying the two witnesses as Moses and Elijah.

Soj
Dec 29th 2007, 04:05 AM
I don't see your point.

(Mark 8:17-18).

Men debated for years what kind of "great fish" swallowed Jonah, because the book of Jonah itself didn't identify it...in the same way you are debating the identity of the 2 witnesses in Revelation. In both cases the Bible identifies these things in other passages from other books in the Bible.

SurfsUp
Dec 29th 2007, 04:14 AM
ShirleyFord -- you didn't comment on the fact that the miracles jive with Moses & Elijah -- if not them, then who???

the other comments are merely supportive & not conclusive -- you use the whole Bible to answer this, not merely Rev 11

ShirleyFord
Dec 29th 2007, 04:36 AM
(Mark 8:17-18).

Men debated for years what kind of "great fish" swallowed Jonah, because the book of Jonah itself didn't identify it...in the same way you are debating the identity of the 2 witnesses in Revelation. In both cases the Bible identifies these things in other passages from other books in the Bible.



So could you provide those passages in the Bible that identifies the two witnesses in Revelation 11 as Moses and Elijah with the same clarity as Jesus gave to the account of Jonah?

Soj
Dec 29th 2007, 04:52 AM
So could you provide those passages in the Bible that identifies the two witnesses in Revelation 11 as Moses and Elijah with the same clarity as Jesus gave to the account of Jonah?I already provided the passages in my 2nd post in this thread, to me they have enough clarity to draw a conclusion.

ShirleyFord
Dec 29th 2007, 05:12 AM
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4-7 will yield the proper interpretation of who these two are:

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Compare with Zechariah 4:11-14

Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The two witnesses are not two books, nations, or any other private interpretation, they are "two anointed ones."



The two olive trees are "the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
Elijah stood by the Lord of the whole earth...
1 Kings 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.
Moses stood by the Lord of the whole earth...
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:



These two anointed ones have the power to shut heaven that it rain not in the days of their prophesy (Rev 11:6)...
Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
(three years and six months)
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(three years and six months)
James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.



These two anointed ones have the power to destroy their enemies with fire (Rev 11:5)...
2 Kings 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Numbers 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. 29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. 30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. 31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. 35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. 36 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,


These two anointed ones have the power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues (Rev 11:6)...
Exodus 7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. 15 Get thee unto Pharaoh in the morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou shalt stand by the river's brink against he come; and the rod which was turned to a serpent shalt thou take in thine hand. 16 And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear. 17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. 18 And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.

Both Moses and Elijah were present on the Mount of Transfiguration talking to Christ...

Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Moses and Elijah are the last two human beings mentioned in the Old Testament, and they are mentioned in connection with Mt Sinai and the Lord Jesus Christ...

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


I already provided the passages in my 2nd post in this thread, to me they have enough clarity to draw a conclusion.

I have given you the scriptures, I cannot spoonfeed you all the answers, and God won't either.

I must agree with 3H on this one. John would have certainly been familiar with Moses and Elijah since He was right there at the tranfiguration of Jesus. So he would have easily identified the two witnesses as Moses and Elijah if he had meant that they were the two witnesses.

Soj
Dec 29th 2007, 05:31 AM
I must agree with 3H on this one. John would have certainly been familiar with Moses and Elijah since He was right there at the tranfiguration of Jesus. So he would have easily identified the two witnesses as Moses and Elijah if he had meant that they were the two witnesses.Maybe God told him not to identify them? Just like He told John not to write about other things...

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Maybe John saw them in a different form than that of the mount of transfiguration?

My point - Just because John doesn't name them personally as Moses and Elijah doesn't mean they aren't the two witnesses. The text doesn't necessitate him naming them either as other scriptures testify to whom they are. You wouldn't know that the Word of God in Rev 19:13 is Jesus Christ if it wasn't for John chapter 1!


Also, John was obviously a bit confused with what he saw in the revelation because in Rev 19:10 he makes quite a misjudgment...

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

SurfsUp
Dec 29th 2007, 05:52 AM
soj -- well said & I completely agree

ShirleyFord -- can you please tell us who you think the 2 witnesses are?

My heart's Desire
Dec 29th 2007, 05:58 AM
The two witnesses are the Old and New Testament. The plagues are to be sent by God, even if the witnesses were men. Unless you attribute plague-sending powers to mere men.The Word says that These have the power to shut up the sky , so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying and they have power over the waters to turn them to blood. They have the power, probably given by God, but they have the power. It's quite plain to me that these are real men. They die and have real bodies. The breath of life from God comes into them and they go up to heaven.
The NASB in Revelation11:3 says,
And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. Authority is written in italics so must not be in the original but if you leave it out, it still reads, And I will grant to my two witnesses, and they will.... So God must give them something.

ShirleyFord
Dec 29th 2007, 06:26 AM
Maybe God told him not to identify them? Just like He told John not to write about other things...

It is a biblical fact that John didn't identify the two witnesses.


Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

It is a biblical fact that God through His angel told John not to write what the seven thunders uttered. But it is not a biblical fact that God told John not to identify the two witnesses.



Maybe John saw them in a different form than that of the mount of transfiguration?

It is not a biblical fact that John saw Moses and Elijah again in a different form than at the transfiguration of Jesus. Revelation doesn't mention him seeing them at all.



My point - Just because John doesn't name them personally as Moses and Elijah doesn't mean they aren't the two witnesses. The text doesn't necessitate him naming them either as other scriptures testify to whom they are. You wouldn't know that the Word of God in Rev 19:13 is Jesus Christ if it wasn't for John chapter 1!


But John identifies Jesus as "the Word of God" in his gospel. So in Revelation 19:13 when we find written "the Word of God", all we have to do to learn the idenity is is flip back to the first Chapter of John and there we find that the Word of God in Rev. 19:13 is Jesus, just as clear as day, no quesswork or maybe sos or speculations.

But that is not the case with the two witnesses in Rev. 11. None of the Scriptures you provided mention that Moses and Elijah will be resurrected from the dead and preach and prophecy and die again and be resurrected again and then raptured.



Also, John was obviously a bit confused with what he saw in the revelation because in Rev 19:10 he makes quite a misjudgment...

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

So you believe that John was a bit confused when he didn't identify the two witnesses in Revelation 11?

How could that be? He wrote down only what Jesus told him to write down that He showed him in the visions:

Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Soj
Dec 29th 2007, 06:44 AM
He wrote down only what Jesus told him to write down that He showed him in the visions:

Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.I agree, and it is a "Biblical fact" that the names of the two witnesses were not written down by John! Now whether or not he recognised them as Moses and Elijah is beside the point because like you say - he only wrote down what Jesus told him to write down. Claiming that he would have written their names down if he recognised them is moot.

Again, other scriptures testify that the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.

ShirleyFord
Dec 29th 2007, 06:54 AM
Again, other scriptures testify that the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.

Then you will point them out? Don't come back with "I've already provided the Scriptures that prove that Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses". None of those Scriptures you provided here mention that:


Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses.

Moses and Elijah will be resurrected from the dead and then die again and then be resurrected from the dead again.

Soj
Dec 29th 2007, 07:02 AM
Then you will point them out? Don't come back with "I've already provided the Scriptures that prove that Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses". None of those Scriptures you provided here mention that:


Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses.

Moses and Elijah will be resurrected from the dead and then die again and then be resurrected from the dead again.Obviously the scriptures I have posted don't have the clarity you require to believe it, but they do it for me.

Going by your reasoning, you personally will never have a concrete answer for this question because they are not named in Rev 11, so no-one can know for sure...but I disagree.

SurfsUp
Dec 29th 2007, 04:08 PM
Obviously the scriptures I have posted don't have the clarity you require to believe it, but they do it for me.

Going by your reasoning, you personally will never have a concrete answer for this question because they are not named in Rev 11, so no-one can know for sure...but I disagree.

I agree

I have asked ShirleyFord a couple times now for what SHE believes the answer to the question is yet she is silent -- she only desires to debate who the witnesses aren't -- that's her choice but it makes for a 1-sided conversation IMO

ShirleyFord
Dec 29th 2007, 04:30 PM
I agree

I have asked ShirleyFord a couple times now for what SHE believes the answer to the question is yet she is silent -- she only desires to debate who the witnesses aren't -- that's her choice but it makes for a 1-sided conversation IMO

I've already posted twice on this thread what I believe the two witnesses are with the Scriptures to support my belief. But I'm not dogmatic about the idenity of the two witnesses since the Bible nowhere clearly identifies them.

But I am absolutely certain based on what Scripture says throughout the OT and the NT that Moses and Elijah, or Enoch and Elijah are not the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

However you have the right to present Scriptures that refutes my claims and proves your beliefs.

Shirley

SurfsUp
Dec 29th 2007, 04:55 PM
I've already posted twice on this thread what I believe the two witnesses are with the Scriptures to support my belief. But I'm not dogmatic about the idenity of the two witnesses since the Bible nowhere clearly identifies them.

Do you expect me to read the 70 other posts in order to have a simple question answered? If you tell me your answer is X & Y then I'll know -- you need not supply Scripural support as I can look that up myself

OK, I actually found your response: the Word & Spirit -- this is a common response but is clearly not supported by Rev 11 -- these are literal men & so your answers are proven wrong

We disagree on the answer & that's fine

Junietta
Dec 29th 2007, 05:13 PM
Who were Abraham's three visitors ?

1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Gen 18:1-3 KJV

God in three Persons ?


In Rev 11 God did not send just any two witnesses. He said MY two witnesses. The only two witnesses God has ever given to mankind. No one would know anything about God except by these two witnesses, the Word and the Spirit. Who were the three men who visited Abraham? Jesus, the Word, was in a visible body for a time. The Holy Spirit appeared as a dove at the Lord's baptism.

The scene of the two witnesses being killed and then raised to life again will take place toward the end of this present world. God will leave no doubt that the Word and the Spirit are very real and very powerful.

Jesus, the Word, was killed and raised from the dead.. He will do it again in the form of the two witnesses.

Try to visualize the very dramatic time God has prepared for the closing hours of this old world. What better way than to have the Word and the Spirit be seen as dead yet come back to life and rise up to heaven ?

SurfsUp
Dec 29th 2007, 05:35 PM
Who were Abraham's three visitors ?

God in three Persons ??

no -- clearly only 1 of them was Jesus as no man has seen the Father & the Holy Spirit was never a man -- so the other 2 are the angels that would later destroy the 6 cities


In Rev 11 God did not send just any two witnesses. He said MY two witnesses. The only two witnesses God has ever given to mankind. No one would know anything about God except by these two witnesses, the Word and the Spirit. Who were the three men who visited Abraham? Jesus, the Word, was in a visible body for a time. The Holy Spirit appeared as a dove at the Lord's baptism.

The scene of the two witnesses being killed and then raised to life again will take place toward the end of this present world. God will leave no doubt that the Word and the Spirit are very real and very powerful.

Jesus, the Word, was killed and raised from the dead.. He will do it again in the form of the two witnesses.

Try to visualize the very dramatic time God has prepared for the closing hours of this old world. What better way than to have the Word and the Spirit be seen as dead yet come back to life and rise up to heaven ?

i completely disagree with you & am esp troubled by what you said (see bold) above -- Jesus Died once & for all -- He need not die again! :o -- this is a very dangerous view or am I misunderstanding you, could you please clarify?

He will do it again in the form of the two witnesses.

Junietta
Dec 29th 2007, 09:55 PM
You are right that Jesus died once and for all and that was for the sins of the people.

However the death and resurrection of the two witnesses will be under entirely different circumstances and for a completely different reason.

That scene will be during the closing moments of this world and to prove once and for all eternity that evil cannot win. God is Supreme. There will never again be any doubt about that.

quiet dove
Dec 29th 2007, 10:13 PM
You are right that Jesus died once and for all and that was for the sins of the people.

However the death and resurrection of the two witnesses will be under entirely different circumstances and for a completely different reason.

That scene will be during the closing moments of this world and to prove once and for all eternity that evil cannot win. God is Supreme. There will never again be any doubt about that.

So what you are saying is that just as any witnesses for Christ or should I say prophets(in this case) preach and witness for Christ and can be killed, is the same thing we have here only these two will be resurrected and their resurrection will also be a witness? Unlike prophets of old who died and were not resurrected in three days these will die but be resurrected for all in the world to see? Neither of the witnesses being Jesus, but the witnesses being prophets of Jesus.

Junietta
Dec 29th 2007, 10:18 PM
As I have stated before, I believe the two witnesses are the Word and the Spirit. Not just any prophets.

ShirleyFord
Dec 30th 2007, 12:33 AM
This is what I believe about the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11:

1. They are two witnesses of God:
Rev. 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses..."

I believe that the two witnesses are the Spirit of God and the word of God operating in and through God's Church on earth:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me

2. They prophecy:
Rev. 11:3 "...they shall prophesy..."


3. They are defined as olive trees and candlesticks:
Rev. 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Jesus defined the candlesticks as the Churches in Chapter 1.


Rev. 1:20 "... the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

Jeremiah defined the green olive tree as Israel.


Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

David spoke of the green olive tree.

Psalm 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.

Paul wrote of the good olive tree.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

I believe the olive trees are representative of true Israel, the Church.


4. The two witnesses are overcome and killed by the beast:
Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



5. The two witnesses are resurrected and raptured up to heaven at the seventh trump:

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev. 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 8:2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Rev 8:6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Rev 10:7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Shirley

quiet dove
Dec 30th 2007, 12:51 AM
As I have stated before, I believe the two witnesses are the Word and the Spirit. Not just any prophets.

I guess I am slow and just not grasping what you are saying. In another post you stated


He said MY two witnesses.
I dont understand how that is any different than Isaiah or Jeremiah or Moses, or Elijah, because God would have called any one of the "My witnesses" or My prophets".


Try to visualize the very dramatic time God has prepared for the closing hours of this old world. What better way than to have the Word and the Spirit be seen as dead yet come back to life and rise up to heaven ?

I am sorry but I just don't see this Biblically supported. The Spirit cannot possibly die and the Word endures forever, there is no Biblical support that I know of to support the Word and the Spirit dieing and being resurrected.

Since we know that Word became flesh (John 1:14), there is no support for the Word dieing again for any reason. And we know that Christ is resurrected at the right hand of God the Father(Mark 16:19) And that there are many men God described as "My prophets, My witnesses, My elect, My people" I don't see how that "My" in Revelation is any different or means Word and/or Spirit.

ShirleyFord
Dec 30th 2007, 01:02 AM
I am sorry but I just don't see this Biblically supported. The Spirit cannot possibly die and the Word endures forever, there is no Biblical support that I know of to support the Word and the Spirit dieing and being resurrected.

Since we know that Word became flesh (John 1:14), there is no support for the Word dieing again for any reason. And we know that Christ is resurrected at the right hand of God the Father(Mark 16:19) And that there are many men God described as "My prophets, My witnesses, My elect, My people" I don't see how that "My" in Revelation is any different or means Word and/or Spirit.

Hi QD,

I agree absolutely with you on this.


Shirley

Joe King
Dec 30th 2007, 01:16 AM
I thought that the two witnesses preach for 3 1/2 years before the Anti Christ kills them. I also thought that they have the power to plague the earth and that everyone will be happy when they are killed because they will have tormented the earth with plagues.

My heart's Desire
Dec 30th 2007, 04:24 AM
I'm confused. Symbols for something are symbols and literal men are literal men.
I totally believe that the 2 witnesses are men and would not surprise me if they are not Jewish too. I think we have clues of who they may be but really I don't see where the Word says who they are exactly.

Junietta
Dec 30th 2007, 03:59 PM
My Two Witnesses

Not just my witnesses. Not just two witnesses. No. The words my two witnesses would seem to indicate they are the only two. What other witnesses has God ever given to mankind ? How did any of the prophets know about God except by His Word and His Spirit.?

Name any one of them. Where did they get their information ? Did it originate in their minds ? No way ! The Word of God and His Spirit was all they knew. We are witnesses of God but how did we learn ?

The Word of God and His Holy Spirit are the only two witnessos any of us have ever had. All others had to learn the same way.

Junietta
Dec 30th 2007, 04:18 PM
Consider also the time period in which the two witnesses were in sackcloth ? A period of mourning.

I believe all of the time designations are speaking of the dark ages. Then Rev. 12 tells that the woman in the wilderness during that time period was fed by some means. How? Who is meant by the word they ? Could they be the two witnesses from the previous chapter ? Who else could feed the woman all through the dark ages ?

Who is the woman ? Seems to be symbolic for the Church. What was her food ? The bread of life, the Word and Living Water, the Holy Spirit. The two witresses

Do you have a better explanation ?

quiet dove
Dec 30th 2007, 05:25 PM
Consider also the time period in which the two witnesses were in sackcloth ? A period of mourning.

I believe all of the time designations are speaking of the dark ages. Then Rev. 12 tells that the woman in the wilderness during that time period was fed by some means. How? Who is meant by the word they ? Could they be the two witnesses from the previous chapter ? Who else could feed the woman all through the dark ages ?

Who is the woman ? Seems to be symbolic for the Church. What was her food ? The bread of life, the Word and Living Water, the Holy Spirit. The two witresses

Do you have a better explanation ?

As I said before
I am sorry but I just don't see this Biblically supported. The Spirit cannot possibly die and the Word endures forever, there is no Biblical support that I know of to support the Word and the Spirit dieing and being resurrected.

The Word and the Spirit witnessing to mans heart still cannot die and be resurrected. The Church has always been in the wilderness of the world. The Church from its begining has been fed by the Spirit, fed by the Word and it always will be. This did not happen for some short time period in man history.

As far as who the woman is in Revelation and when all of it happened or will happen I won't get into. My issue is with the fact that the Word and the Spirit cannot die. The entity of the Church, cannot die. Members of that Body will physically die, but the entity of the Church in Christ is not physical. So even the Word and the Spirit as separate entities or within the Church and including the Church itself, cannot die.

Mograce2U
Dec 30th 2007, 05:53 PM
The OT references in Rev 11 are practically in every sentence John records. And John himself already spoke of who "My two witnesses" are in his gospel (John 5:31+). These two witnesses are personified in the prophetic testimony given to Moses and Elijah (representing the Law and Prophets) (whom John also saw on the mount), and are the ones who will "speak" judgment to the nation of Israel in the last 3 1/2 years that were coming upon them. This is metaphorical language to show us how the word of God is to be fulfilled as He has prophecied of old.

Their death and resurrection is specifically to recall to our mind why this judgment is coming. Even referring to Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt. In the OT Israel was promised that if they forsook the Lord the judgments they witnessed upon those peoples would come against them. We are witnessing the end of the old covenant era whose lifting up to heaven precedes the fall of this judgment. I think it also coincides with the resurrection of the OT saints at that time, because of the proclamation from heaven in v 15-18.

John's little book that he was given to eat and by which he was to prophesy again to the nations was accompanied by these two witnesses. A book which nobody seems to understand at all today. But those to whom it was written would have understood it - and when this judgment came; the kings, nations and peoples of the world would know that the Lord He is God and performs all His word just as He said. And that the Lord Jesus rules in the kingdoms of men - the One who God testified was Who He ordained to be Judge, and proved it by raising Him from the dead. This is the sword that comes out of His mouth - the prophetic word of God coming to pass, to deal with His enemies.

That the book was sweet in John's mouth but bitter in his belly is because it contained these judgments.

ShirleyFord
Dec 30th 2007, 10:47 PM
Their death and resurrection is specifically to recall to our mind why this judgment is coming. Even referring to Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt. In the OT Israel was promised that if they forsook the Lord the judgments they witnessed upon those peoples would come against them. We are witnessing the end of the old covenant era whose lifting up to heaven precedes the fall of this judgment. I think it also coincides with the resurrection of the OT saints at that time, because of the proclamation from heaven in v 15-18.

Robin, You didn't provide any Scripture to back up these beliefs.

Couple of questions here:

1. What Scripture says that the Old Covenant era would be lifted up to heaven before 70 AD?

2. What Scripture or historical records says that the OT saints were resurrected at that time?

3. If the judgement in Rev. 11:18 was on the unbelieving Jews and the destruction of their temple and city of Jerusalem in 70 AD, what were these people of God doing there be rewarded by God at this judgement?

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


And according to historical records not all unbelievers, not even all unbelieving Jews were destroyed in 70 AD.


John's little book that he was given to eat and by which he was to prophesy again to the nations was accompanied by these two witnesses. A book which nobody seems to understand at all today. But those to whom it was written would have understood it - and when this judgment came; the kings, nations and peoples of the world would know that the Lord He is God and performs all His word just as He said. And that the Lord Jesus rules in the kingdoms of men - the One who God testified was Who He ordained to be Judge, and proved it by raising Him from the dead. This is the sword that comes out of His mouth - the prophetic word of God coming to pass, to deal with His enemies.


You seem to be saying that the two witnesses caused the entire world to come to Christ and believe on Him after their prophecies of judgement came to pass in 70 AD. If that is what you are saying, let me ask you this, Why isn't there any record of such a revival? Or have you read that there was?

I have read some of about all of the Early Church Fathers of the first 300 years AD. And they don't mention such a thing happening.


Shirley

Soj
Dec 30th 2007, 10:50 PM
I believe the olive trees are representative of true Israel, the Church.Hi Shirley,

Can you please explain what you mean by this statement of the Church being the true Israel?

third hero
Dec 30th 2007, 11:05 PM
As I have stated before, I believe the two witnesses are the Word and the Spirit. Not just any prophets.

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 11:7

So, according to you, the Word and the Spirit, neither of which can be killed, will be overcome and killed by the beast that arises from the abyss.

ShirleyFord
Dec 30th 2007, 11:19 PM
Hi Shirley,

Can you please explain what you mean by this statement of the Church being the true Israel?

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Shirley

Soj
Dec 30th 2007, 11:48 PM
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


ShirleyYes, spiritually we are Abraham's seed, but not literally...

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

So Shirley, do you think that God is all through with the literal nation of Israel and that the Church replaces them as the true Israel?

ShirleyFord
Dec 31st 2007, 12:25 AM
Yes, spiritually we are Abraham's seed, but not literally...

Spiritual things are just as real and literal as physical, earthly things, and more so.

Jesus is the physical seed of Abraham, literally. And as the Scripture I posted says, all who are in Christ by faith are literally the seed of Abraham through Christ.


Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The blessing of Abraham was Jesus Christ to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles.


So Shirley, do you think that God is all through with the literal nation of Israel and that the Church replaces them as the true Israel?

No one replaces anyone.

Let's get back on the topic of this thread, The Two Witnesses. If you want to discuss this further then start a new thread so this thread will not be hijacked.

Thanks.

Junietta
Dec 31st 2007, 12:30 AM
The final scenes of this old world will be very dramatic to say the least. I think God will let Satan believe he has won the battle. Yes, I think God will allow the Word and the Spirit, in visible bodies, to lie dead in the street.

The two witnesses will have finished their testimony at the time the beast, the old devil himself, comes up out of the bottomless pit and kills them.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
KJV

This scene will take place shortly before the end of this present world. After they are raised from the dead the Lord will appear in the clouds and gather the saints to glory.

So as far as this world is concerned, the testimony of the Word and the Spirit will not be needed anymore. We will be with them in glory

jeffweeder
Dec 31st 2007, 01:14 AM
A few sciptures to ponder about who is Gods witnesses and the olive trees.

IS 43
But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob[/U,
And He who formed you, [U]O Israel,
"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name; you are Mine!






All the nations have gathered together
So that the peoples may be assembled.
Who among them can declare this
And proclaim to us the former things?
Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified,
Or let them hear and say, "It is true."


10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.


11 "I, even I, am the LORD,
And there is no savior besides Me.


12 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And I am God.


IS 44

'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.




7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.




8 'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.' "

JER 11
The LORD called your name,
"A green olive tree, beautiful in fruit and form";
With the noise of a great tumult
He has kindled fire on it,
And its branches are worthless.

17 The LORD of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced evil against you because of the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me by offering up sacrifices to Baal.


HOS 14
ROM 11

danield
Dec 31st 2007, 03:30 AM
I feel certain that the 2 witnesses are not Mosses and Elijah because John would have recognized them and that would have been a major factor in his writing the book of Revelation. We can “what if” a lot in the bible and many have, but I simply take it for what it says. What if the two witnesses are just 2 people who have faith in the Lord as much as a mustard seed?

Matthew 17:19-20 "Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, 'Why could we not cast it out?' He said to them, 'Because of your little faith. For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

Luke 17:5-6 "The apostles said to the Lord, 'Increase our faith!' The Lord replied. 'If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.'"

I just do not see the Lord reincarnating two ancient prophets to upstage Christ’s return. I also think the book of revelation and the events in it is an end all testimony of the authority of Christ. And Christ is the only one that is “named” in revelation that will return.

SurfsUp
Dec 31st 2007, 03:52 AM
I believe the olive trees are representative of true Israel, the Church.


4. The two witnesses are overcome and killed by the beast:
Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Shirley

some problems I have are I do not believe the Church is true Israel -- the Church is the Church & Israel is Israel -- this is a whole thread in itself!

regarding pt 4, 1 problem you have is Jesus Promised that the Church would not be overcome (Matt. 16:18) -- this is 1 reason I support a pre-trib rapture of the Church

I do not expect to derail this thread by expanding its focus -- I merely share this for understanding of where I'm coming from -- however, if 1 believes the Church is Israel then that person must have a completely diff eschatological view -- so agreement ain't gonna happen

SurfsUp
Dec 31st 2007, 03:59 AM
Consider also the time period in which the two witnesses were in sackcloth ? A period of mourning.

I believe all of the time designations are speaking of the dark ages. Then Rev. 12 tells that the woman in the wilderness during that time period was fed by some means. How? Who is meant by the word they ? Could they be the two witnesses from the previous chapter ? Who else could feed the woman all through the dark ages ?

Who is the woman ? Seems to be symbolic for the Church. What was her food ? The bread of life, the Word and Living Water, the Holy Spirit. The two witresses

Do you have a better explanation ?

I disagree -- the woman of Rev 12 must be Israel

The Messiah was birthed from Israel, the Church followed

Israel was Chosen & the Church was Grafted in

The Church is the virgin bride yet the woman in Rev 12 is pregnant

The Bible is about Christ yet a distinction is made between Israel & the Church -- the focus of most of the Bible & most of Rev is on Israel, not the Church -- if you miss this point or spiritualize that the Church is the true Israel, you will reach different conclusions about end time prophecy

I do not wish to divert this thread into some "Israel vs the Church" debate -- I merely point out this is a foundational argument

My heart's Desire
Dec 31st 2007, 04:08 AM
The final scenes of this old world will be very dramatic to say the least. I think God will let Satan believe he has won the battle. Yes, I think God will allow the Word and the Spirit, in visible bodies, to lie dead in the street.

The two witnesses will have finished their testimony at the time the beast, the old devil himself, comes up out of the bottomless pit and kills them.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
KJV

This scene will take place shortly before the end of this present world. After they are raised from the dead the Lord will appear in the clouds and gather the saints to glory.

So as far as this world is concerned, the testimony of the Word and the Spirit will not be needed anymore. We will be with them in glory
Wow, I don't understand this at all! The Word is Jesus and the spirit is the Holy Spirit and you are saying that they (the Word and the Spirit) are the 2 witnesses whose bodies lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days before descending up to Heaven? I really don't THINK so.

SurfsUp
Dec 31st 2007, 04:09 AM
Couple of questions here:

1. What Scripture says that the Old Covenant era would be lifted up to heaven before 70 AD?

2. What Scripture or historical records says that the OT saints were resurrected at that time?

3. If the judgement in Rev. 11:18 was on the unbelieving Jews and the destruction of their temple and city of Jerusalem in 70 AD, what were these people of God doing there be rewarded by God at this judgement?

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


And according to historical records not all unbelievers, not even all unbelieving Jews were destroyed in 70 AD.

I must be missing some context from previous discussions as I see no reference to 70ADin moregrace2u's below post

I will offer that I do not believe Rev 11 takes place in 70AD -- it is fulfilled @ a future time from today -- I take a quasi-futurist position to the interpretation of Rev & do not subscribe to pretersism

Numerous passages support this & is (again) the topic for another thread -- will merely offer that Dan. 9:24, Is 13 & 14, Jer. 5 & 51, & Matt 24 all support a future fulfillment

SurfsUp
Dec 31st 2007, 04:14 AM
I feel certain that the 2 witnesses are not Mosses and Elijah because John would have recognized them and that would have been a major factor in his writing the book of Revelation.


I just do not see the Lord reincarnating two ancient prophets to upstage Christ’s return. I also think the book of revelation and the events in it is an end all testimony of the authority of Christ. And Christ is the only one that is “named” in revelation that will return.

you may be correct -- I do not think that would've been a factor or changed what he wrote but hey -- Elijah never died so wouldn't be "reincarnated" -- there's an interesting passage in Jude about Moses but not sure if that's a clue or not -- the Transfiguration is provacative as well

I merely offer that if you choose 2 people then Moses & Elijah are the best fit

My heart's Desire
Dec 31st 2007, 04:14 AM
What if the two witnesses are just 2 people who have faith in the Lord as much as a mustard seed?

Although I could see the witnesses being an O.T personage, I'm more inclined to believe as you. God is certainly able to raise up a witness for Himself prepared for such a day and hour, just as He has done all through the Old and the New Testaments as well.

jeffweeder
Dec 31st 2007, 04:21 AM
I disagree -- the woman of Rev 12 must be Israel

But the true Israel in Gods eyes was always going to be Church citizens as the scripture you quoted goes on to say....those that believe in Israels true king and follow his testamony.

In scripture , who does God proclaim as his witnesses to him being the true G

SurfsUp
Dec 31st 2007, 04:27 AM
But the true Israel in Gods eyes was always going to be Church citizens as the scripture you quoted goes on to say....those that believe in Israels true king and follow his testamony.


as stated a few times below, if you believe the Church is the "true Israel" then we will reach diff conclusions regarding end times

please explain how the woman is really the Church in light of the problems I presented with this view -- this should be a new thread though

jeffweeder
Dec 31st 2007, 04:27 AM
I disagree -- the woman of Rev 12 must be Israel

But the true Israel in Gods eyes was always going to be Church citizens as the scripture you quoted goes on to say....those that believe in Israels true king and follow his testamony.

In scripture , who does God proclaim as his witnesses to him being the true God?

I believe the closer we get to international agreement over this land and Jerusalem, the true witness will be that it belongs to the God of Israel and the citizens of his Gospel of salvation.
There cant be any doubt that the 2 witnesses will be proclaiming the old and New testament truth of the one true God and what he has done.

jeffweeder
Dec 31st 2007, 04:40 AM
What happened there?

Im just saying that God always wanted Israel to be like the Church.
Israel was never going to be Israel without the Truth of the Church.
Israel becomes saved through the Gospel truth of their king being Jesus of Nazerath.
That makes the true Israel in Gods mind, the church.
Grace is all about flesh Israel being saved, and he wont forget the promises made to them about the land....and he hasnt.

Soj
Dec 31st 2007, 04:53 AM
The Messiah was birthed from Israel, the Church followed

Israel was Chosen & the Church was Grafted in

The Church is the virgin bride yet the woman in Rev 12 is pregnant

The Bible is about Christ yet a distinction is made between Israel & the Church -- the focus of most of the Bible & most of Rev is on Israel, not the Church -- if you miss this point or spiritualize that the Church is the true Israel, you will reach different conclusions about end time prophecy

I do not wish to divert this thread into some "Israel vs the Church" debate -- I merely point out this is a foundational argumentI believe a number of folks in this thread will never accept that the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, or Enoch, or any literal people, because according to their doctrine these things are all spiritual and in some cases have already taken place!

So you are correct, there will ALWAYS be different conclusions regardless of how clear you think the scripture may be. Different conclusions are arrived at because of different end time viewpoints that people have, and in their/our minds the scriptures are interpreted to fit in with that.

My heart's Desire
Dec 31st 2007, 05:39 AM
I wonder if trying to identify the 2 witnesses will be as fruitless as trying to identify who the antichrist will be? :)

jeffweeder
Dec 31st 2007, 06:12 AM
All we have is scripture.
Does God tell us who his witnesses are in Scripture? Post all scriptures now, when God himself says ...these are my witnesses....
Are we told about what anti christ is?
This is all we have

Junietta
Dec 31st 2007, 05:22 PM
Ye search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: “ Rom 8:16

They are powerful forces at work in our world.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Zech 4:6

Rev. 12:6 Who are "they" who feed the woman (the church during the dark ages)?
Who else but the Two Witnesses from the previous chapter ?

What could the food be but the Bread of Life, the Word, and the Living Water, the Holy Spirit ? ? ?

Add to all these clues the fact that we have no other witnesses from God but the Word and the Spirit. No one would know anything about God without them.

quiet dove
Dec 31st 2007, 06:23 PM
Add to all these clues the fact that we have no other witnesses from God but the Word and the Spirit. No one would know anything about God without them.


Junietta,

We have the prophets, apostles, disciples, pastor, teacher, and so on. We have each other. We are to all live our lives as a witness to the saving power of the Gospel. Preach the Gospel, we are "His witnesses".

John146
Dec 31st 2007, 09:58 PM
This is what I believe about the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11:

1. They are two witnesses of God:
Rev. 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses..."

I believe that the two witnesses are the Spirit of God and the word of God operating in and through God's Church on earth:
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me

2. They prophecy:
Rev. 11:3 "...they shall prophesy..."


3. They are defined as olive trees and candlesticks:
Rev. 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Jesus defined the candlesticks as the Churches in Chapter 1.

Rev. 1:20 "... the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

Jeremiah defined the green olive tree as Israel.

Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

David spoke of the green olive tree.
Psalm 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.

Paul wrote of the good olive tree.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

I believe the olive trees are representative of true Israel, the Church.


4. The two witnesses are overcome and killed by the beast:
Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



5. The two witnesses are resurrected and raptured up to heaven at the seventh trump:

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev. 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 8:2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Rev 8:6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Rev 10:7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Shirley

I agree, Shirley. Well said. The two witnesses represent the church evangelizing the world through the power of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. That is how the whole world can look upon their dead bodies. It's not because of television. It's because the witnesses are found throughout the world. I believe people are overlooking the meaning of the candlesticks, which represent churches in Rev. 1 and the olive trees. Individual men don't fit those descriptions. I also don't agree with the idea put out there by Junietta that the two witnesses are the Word and the Spirit because the Word and the Spirit cannot be killed, resurrected and caught up to heaven. But the church can.

Eric

John146
Dec 31st 2007, 10:07 PM
some problems I have are I do not believe the Church is true Israel -- the Church is the Church & Israel is Israel -- this is a whole thread in itself!
What do you make of the following passages then?

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Rom 9:6-8

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. - Eph 2:11-13




regarding pt 4, 1 problem you have is Jesus Promised that the Church would not be overcome (Matt. 16:18) -- this is 1 reason I support a pre-trib rapture of the Church Many Christians have been overcome and martyred over the years and it continues today. Does that mean the enemy has prevailed over the church? No. No matter how many are martyred, they cannot prevail against the church. The head of the church is Christ. Christ is resurrected and cannot be killed again. Killing Christians does not mean one has prevailed against the church. Being overcome and killed is not the same as the church being prevailed against. To live is Christ and to die is gain. No one prevails against us just by killing our bodies. They can't kill our souls.

Saved7
Jan 2nd 2008, 01:47 AM
I believe the two witnesses were FAITH and HOPE.

.

but alas another theory that excludes the possibility of two human beings wearing sack cloth and laying dead in the street for 3 days, and resurrecting. And it also excludes the idea that the whole world will celebrate their deaths and send gifts to one another. I have yet to see any historical reference for even THAT part when it comes to the other theory that says it's the word and something other thing.

Sorry, nothing personal, but I just couldn't let this one slide, as it does the same as the other theory, denies the death, celebration of the deaths, and the resurrection of two human beings.:P

Clifton
Jan 2nd 2008, 02:36 AM
but alas another theory that excludes the possibility of two human beings wearing sack cloth and laying dead in the street for 3 days, and resurrecting. And it also excludes the idea that the whole world will celebrate their deaths and send gifts to one another. I have yet to see any historical reference for even THAT part when it comes to the other theory that says it's the word and something other thing.

Sorry, nothing personal, but I just couldn't let this one slide, as it does the same as the other theory, denies the death, celebration of the deaths, and the resurrection of two human beings.:P


I, too, have assumed that they are gonna be two human beings, for the same reasons you do - it makes better sense with the context. I would imagine also from the context, that they are gonna be quite powerful (or have been given some authorities of power by YHWH).

Blessings,
Clifton

danield
Jan 2nd 2008, 03:28 AM
but alas another theory that excludes the possibility of two human beings wearing sack cloth and laying dead in the street for 3 days, and resurrecting. And it also excludes the idea that the whole world will celebrate their deaths and send gifts to one another. I have yet to see any historical reference for even THAT part when it comes to the other theory that says it's the word and something other thing.

Sorry, nothing personal, but I just couldn't let this one slide, as it does the same as the other theory, denies the death, celebration of the deaths, and the resurrection of two human beings.:P


I agree that they will be two human beings. I believe when people don’t understand something in the bible they quickly reflect to symbolism to make something fit their view of how verses are suppose to work when in actuality things just haven’t happened yet for them to see how God's plan is to unfold. I think people should be patient and not to try and read into things. I know that Revelation does have symbolism in it, but how I draw the line to understanding where symbolism begins and ends is I put myself back in John’s shoes and imagine how he could see his visions and interpret them into today’s world. And I know people might think I am still celebrating the new years for saying this but think about it. If you could be use to a way of life say 2000 years ago, and then get fast forward to today’s world it would be VERY different. And in your visions, the Lord is trying to get you to understand not only the small aspects of life but the very way our world is ruled. He is describing a very complex world the best way he can. But at times he doesn’t have to use symbolism to describe what he knows is true, for instance, the two witnesses. He knows what two faithful followers of God are. He knew what Elijah and Mosses looked like and were. He could have made distinction between that information and what he wrote. But he chooses to write exactly what he did and they are not mentioned. And don’t you know that the vision he was seeing was intense on his soul. He would not have wanted to make a mistake about what he was writing. He knew this was VERY important to the Lord. So I feel extremely confident that they are two people who are not Elijah and Mosses but two new men or women who has very good relationship with the Lord to say the least. I bet you John was an extremely smart man and is one reason why the Lord choose him to write this book. Also, think of the chances of having him write it knowing that he has seen Mosses and Elijah and how it reflects to Rev 11. Maybe it was not written by John only by chance. I would be very leery if someone appeared today claiming to be a reincarnate of Mosses and Elijah. I know the lord can make anything happen but this just does not seem to fit his plan which is to give all the glory to Christ.

ShirleyFord
Jan 2nd 2008, 11:53 AM
I bet you John was an extremely smart man and is one reason why the Lord choose him to write this book.

Dan,

The Bible doesn't indicate that John was any smarter than any other man. He had no formal education. He made his living as a fisherman before he left all to follow Christ:

Mt 4:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

Mt 10:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

Mk 1:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And when he had gone a little farther thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.

Mk 1:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.

Luke 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,

2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.

3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.

4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.

6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

7 And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.

8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:

10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him.




1 Cor 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


Shirley

danield
Jan 2nd 2008, 03:14 PM
I have met many people who have never had a formal education that were smart as whips. I have met some fishermen that know the gps grid so well that they do not even need to set in their destination to get to the exact spot where they want to fish, and they know how to work every function of a GPS and can even fix pretty much everything on their boat. I contend that a formal education does not dictate how smart a person is. In any event I think John did an execellent Job in writing Revelation.

ShirleyFord
Jan 3rd 2008, 03:04 AM
I have met many people who have never had a formal education that were smart as whips. I have met some fishermen that know the gps grid so well that they do not even need to set in their destination to get to the exact spot where they want to fish, and they know how to work every function of a GPS and can even fix pretty much everything on their boat. I contend that a formal education does not dictate how smart a person is. In any event I think John did an execellent Job in writing Revelation.

Dan, what you are saying is all true. But I don't believe that Jesus chose John to be His disciple or to write the book of Revelation to the 7 churches because he was a good fisherman and navigator and kept his boat in tip top shape.

John did an excellent job writing the book of Revelation as he did in writing the book of John and his 3 letters. But John's excellent writing didn't come from his excellent writing skills. But it was due to his being in the Spirit - 1:10.


Shirley

danield
Jan 3rd 2008, 04:00 AM
I agree Shirley that


Shirleyford post
John's excellent writing didn't come from his excellent writing skills. But it was due to his being in the Spirit

But we know that when much is given much is expected Luke 12:48. And I feel quite sure that John was given a bright mind. and the Lord gave him the task of writing the book of Revelation.

I whole heartly agree that he was never selected as a disciple because he was smart. I was just making the comment that I bet he was an extremely smart man for his time, and he would not over look or forget something that is as important as not mentioning Mosses and Elijah as being the two witnesses when he had seen them in his life. Also, I think it is interesting that the Lord choose John to do the task, and we all know the lord is all knowing so their must be something to this other than just happening by chance.


Danield post
I bet you John was an extremely smart man and is one reason why the Lord choose him to write this book.


God bless!:hug:

Clifton
Jan 3rd 2008, 04:37 AM
Dan, what you are saying is all true. But I don't believe that Jesus chose John to be His disciple or to write the book of Revelation to the 7 churches because he was a good fisherman and navigator and kept his boat in tip top shape.

John did an excellent job writing the book of Revelation as he did in writing the book of John and his 3 letters. But John's excellent writing didn't come from his excellent writing skills. But it was due to his being in the Spirit - 1:10.


Shirley


As for as we know, John, son of Zedebee and "personal" disciple Of Yahshua did not write any of the New Testament Books, but there is a debate among theologians, scholars, and exegeticals that he may have 'dictated' to someone learned to do the gospel of John - John and Peter were "unlearned" and "ignorant" men (see Acts 4:13; It was they only who had been concerned in the healing of the lame man in 3:1).

Exegetical and Linguistics studies show that the Gospel John, 1,2,3 John, and Revelation are written by three different Johns. The Greek parts in Revelation, which is accredited to John, "The Seer", is a personal-made unique specialized form of Greek, unlike any other, and that thus far seems to help us with any other books he may have been behind, which so far, we do not know of any others. Of course, maybe the Oxyrychus Papyri will turn up something - seems to be quite a number of new things that came out of that pile.

As for much of the good Greek in Revelation, that has long been attributed to an Editor, who took over the project after John died - a better Greek writer than his master, but somewhat unintelligent and, probably unknowingly, an arch-heretic. There are also interpolations and scribal errors that have occurred down the line during the transmission of the text:

Example: Even though 8:7-12 is deemed as an interpolation by the editor, I would presume that 8:7 got messed up..., and should say "one third of trees and grass", as opposed to "all grass", which would leave two-thirds left, since in 9:4, the command is not harm the grass or trees.

Rev 8:7 And the first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

Rev 9:4 And they were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Chapter 16 is slightly worst. Chapter 14, well, it either Christ is reduced to a mere angel or the vintaging is turned over to one (I think that's verses 15-17). Many over the past century have labored to work out these difficulties. A more organized version of Revelation is available, and I am working on a more up-to-date one.

Blessings,
Clifton

Lefty
Jan 3rd 2008, 05:09 AM
I agree that they will be two human beings.

The two witnesses don't seem symbolic to me either;

"9-After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10-They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "11-Men of Galilee" they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11

So, if you play this "film" (at Bethany) backwards, you have 1)two "men" witnessing with believers looking on, 2)then the believers look up, 3)then Christ returns from the clouds. And this is without getting into Revelations at all.

Mograce2U
Jan 3rd 2008, 05:11 PM
The two witnesses don't seem symbolic to me either;

"9-After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10-They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "11-Men of Galilee" they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11

So, if you play this "film" (at Bethany) backwards, you have 1)two "men" witnessing with believers looking on, 2)then the believers look up, 3)then Christ returns from the clouds. And this is without getting into Revelations at all.The question the angels ask seems to be a key also. Why are you looking up at the sky? Because it is not physical clouds they are to be looking at in order to see His coming.

quiet dove
Jan 3rd 2008, 07:46 PM
Rev 8:7 And the first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

Rev 9:4 And they were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.



It seems to me that what seems to be contradiction is not. The point with the locust (9:4) is not hindered by the fact that in 8:4 all the grass is gone. The point is, locust normally attack vegetation, but not these particular locust, they attack men and they torment them but do not kill them. IMHO it seems to be an attempt at making contradiction where there is none because these are not plant destroying locust, but men tormenting locust and that would be the point. Not how much vegetation they do or do not kill.

quiet dove
Jan 3rd 2008, 07:51 PM
Ooops, mod boo boo. I just realized my last post had nothing to do with the two witnesses so lets all get back on track.

We need to start a new thread for other topics here, such as the how smart John was or was not and who wrote what in Revelation. If any post need to be moved please ask, and remember, all post are moved and show up in the order in which they were received.

Thanks to all -:)

Clifton
Jan 3rd 2008, 10:24 PM
It seems to me that what seems to be contradiction is not. The point with the locust (9:4) is not hindered by the fact that in 8:4 all the grass is gone. The point is, locust normally attack vegetation, but not these particular locust, they attack men and they torment them but do not kill them. IMHO it seems to be an attempt at making contradiction where there is none because these are not plant destroying locust, but men tormenting locust and that would be the point. Not how much vegetation they do or do not kill.

Something here is derailed ;)

Well, as pointed out, it is safe to presume that the original of Rev 8:7 said "And a third of the trees were burned up, and a third of the green grass was burned up." or "a third of the trees and grass were burned up" - the exegeticals and linguistics point this out, so there is no 'making a contradiction' - it is plainly before us. It appears that there has been a scribal error (unless you want to think the error is in 9:4, but the context says otherwise - both 8:7 and 9:4 also mention "trees"), which is not surprising, especially with the Orthodox version of Revelation - there are more variants in these texts than the rest of the NT put together - According to Dr. Wilbur N. Pickering, ThM, PhD., in the Book of Revelation, "there are 150 places where there is no majority reading (all below 50%), plus another 250 where the majority falls between 50 and 60." - He has collated thousands of NT MSS.

The "one third" business is frequently used in the Orthodox version of Revelation, leaving two-thirds (of course, 8:7-12 was long ago deemed as that not being from the pen of The Seer - The Editor has perhaps drawn his "one-third" phrases from 9:15,18); no one here has stated that 'the point is not hindered by the "fact" that in 8:4 (sic: I guess you meant 9:4) all the grass is gone", because "all the grass" is not gone, otherwise, there would not be the command "not to harm the grass of the earth" if there was no grass, so it is impossible to say that there is "no grass" in 9:4 as a "fact" - the text speaks for itself: "And they were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth..." - that shows there IS grass here, otherwise, there be no reason for the phrase to be there. If you look at the text quite closely (for ever how many times - which for me, it has been several), you will see it is most likely that there was two-thirds of the grass left, and in 9:4, it is that two-thirds of grass the locusts are commanded not to harm.

So the issue with the locusts is irrelevant to what is before us... 8:7 ALL Grass burned up; 9:4 no harm to grass, etc., so respectfully, you made a mistake by stating there is NO grass in 9:4 as a fact - it is there and to be protected. OTOH, if you are implying that the part that says "the grass of the earth, or " in 9:4 is a scribal error or interpolation, I can understand your logic in that - it would remove the apparent contradiction. However, there some dilemmas here in doing so:


9:4 was verified and authenticated as being penned by The Seer, due to his unique style of Greek ("an unorthodox style"), thus, it is not so much of an issue of a Greek grammatical problem, but it would render a broken context from the linguistics of The Seer, and would therefore render the verse of unknown origin.

In 8:7, only a third of the trees are burned up, thus, since under trees there is grass, it is not feasible that 'all' grass was burned up, but only of that within the range of the one-third of the trees and outward are burned up.Thus, I do not see how nullifying the phrase in 9:4 as an "error" could outweigh the diagnosis that the phrase should convey "one-third of the grass", and probably and most-likely did, before the error came into existence in the MSS, etc.

Now, as to the issue of 8:7-12, it was classified as that not of the Seer, but that of an editor, and was from "unknown providence", but that appears to have changed with the unveiling of the dead sea scrolls and other acclaimed MSS.

From Revelation Q, as I term it (maybe others as well, but it has come under different names and terms, whether Revelation DSS, Essene Revelation, "The Real Aramaic Revelation", "Essene Book of Golden Pages”, "Original Revelation", etc) - here appears to be the providence:

[ note: compatible parallels to the Orthodox Revelation is in parenthesis "()", but ‡ = differs somewhat from the Orthodox Revelation. ]


22. (8:7) The first angel sounded, And there followed hail and fire mixed with blood, And they were cast upon the Earth. And the green forests and trees were burnt up, and all the green grass shriveled to cinders.sentences later...:


26. (9:1)‡ And the fifth angel sounded, and the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together. And over the whole earth there was not one tree, nor one flower, nor one blade of grass. And I stood on the earth, and my feet sank into the soil, soft and thick with blood, Stretching as far as the eye could see. And all over the earth was silence. {cp. Rev. 16:10}
This is a cleaner (and quite enlightening) and better version, better sequenced, and the joy into heart is beyond comprehension. As far as these texts floating around the internet, there are 2 issues regarding most of those.
someone has taken care of, saying, "There was a large discrepancy which is important, as it provides crucial information, to the identity of The Prophesied Coming One who takes the “book” - not “scroll”""
The "third angel" in the first range of Angels appears to be missing. It is possible that that the whole tasks of the third angel is missing, but I feel I have remedy the problem by examining the texts (and I consulted other texts as well), and am currently comfortable with the remedy. It appears to me that the "fourth" angel is indeed the "third" (IOW, the numerics have been offset +1 for each angel after the first two), etc. The seventh angel appears later, as having duties for the 'very end of age of time' - I will talk more about this later on.Some people have seen this text of Revelation as predicted nuclear powers and atomics, and the destruction they are gonna cause.

---------------

Tucker, Wilson: "'...I said nothing in my book to undermine their beliefs; I offered no opinions of my own. But I did show that the first Revelations scroll was written at the Qumran school, and that it was buried in a cave a hundred years or more before the present book was written--or copied--and included in the Bible... Whoever wrote the second version deleted several passages from the first and inserted new chapters more in keeping with his times. In short, he modernized it and made it more acceptable to his priest, his king, his people...' " - Adherents.com: Religious Groups in Literature, Tucker, Wilson 1978;
---------------

From my research I would suggest not later than 69 B.C.
The Prophesied Coming One = Christ.
I use Q meaning "Qumran", and the german "Quelle" (meaning "source").

Thanks for the reply - I really enjoin it here, learning from others and sharing with others ;)


Blessings and Happy New Year,
Κλιφτον Ρη Ηοδζης

Clifton
Jan 4th 2008, 12:58 AM
Apologies for the lengthy message and redundancies - I had forgotten to take my Xanax - finally did remember it :B

Kahtar
Jan 4th 2008, 01:50 AM
Just in case QD's post got overlooked, it's time to return this thread to the OP topic. Take the Discrepancies of Revelation and other topics elsewhere.
This one is about the two witnesses.
Or if you all are through discussing the two witnesses we can close this one down...............http://7spirits.us/forums/smiles/Titanic.gif

Clifton
Jan 4th 2008, 02:37 AM
Just in case QD's post got overlooked, it's time to return this thread to the OP topic. Take the Discrepancies of Revelation and other topics elsewhere.
This one is about the two witnesses.
Or if you all are through discussing the two witnesses we can close this one down...............http://7spirits.us/forums/smiles/Titanic.gif


Yea, I missed that - sorry. I have the idea of "Revelation: Exegetical" or something similar you want to move them.

Apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused - I'm new, but got the idea now - a change a topic can be started elsewhere - may we carry on ;)

Kahtar
Jan 4th 2008, 04:21 AM
Yea, I missed that - sorry. I have the idea of "Revelation: Exegetical" or something similar you want to move them. Easy to do sometimes. I think we'll just let this float as is, but you are certainly welcome to start a new thread if you want.:)

David Taylor
Jan 4th 2008, 11:28 PM
Just in case QD's post got overlooked, it's time to return this thread to the OP topic. Take the Discrepancies of Revelation and other topics elsewhere.


If you feel led to discuss 'discrepencies of Revelation', then that should probably be undertaken in the 'Controversial Issues (http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=48) ' subforum, because that isn't a topic that is for the casual observer, that usually follow the main board forums, to follow along with.

If you want to start a study in CI on that, be sure to northwind ThreeBigRocks, that section Moderator, so everyone is clear on what is come and what is going to be discussed.

jeffweeder
Jan 5th 2008, 12:09 AM
How would God choose to have himself witnessed?

In the past he showed himself true through the Hebrew Nation..."and then they shall know that i am the lord.."

Jesus said that the disciples were witnesses to what God has done, and that was to fulfill some the promises he made to them.--as a witness.

God gave power to those witnesses back at pentecost over Israel for a few years.

So maybe Gods witness in the end will be the same.

The lord working with them in all manner of signs and wonders.


"It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And I am God.


look for the Gospel to go forth in power in Israel, and you will have the perfect witness of God according to all that has been written.



"These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
48 "You are witnesses of these things.
49 "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."

Clifton
Jan 5th 2008, 04:33 AM
If you feel led to discuss 'discrepencies of Revelation', then that should probably be undertaken in the 'Controversial Issues (http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=48) ' subforum, because that isn't a topic that is for the casual observer, that usually follow the main board forums, to follow along with.

If you want to start a study in CI on that, be sure to northwind ThreeBigRocks, that section Moderator, so everyone is clear on what is come and what is going to be discussed.

That link "Controversial Issues" just gives me a page saying thus:
Clifton, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activationWhat is northwind (besides a well used SQL Database by programmers for practicing)

As for the TWO WITNESSES, I think they will be living individuals, with the authorities of great power.

Blessings,
Clifton

David Taylor
Jan 6th 2008, 03:38 AM
That link "Controversial Issues" just gives me a page saying thus:
Clifton, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activationWhat is northwind (besides a well used SQL Database by programmers for practicing)


The CI forum, is "for members with 30 days membership 40 posts and a good reputation".

So it will be a few more days until it shows up for you to post in.

"Northwind"; is another term for telling in advance.