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Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 09:13 PM
Let me start out by saying that judging others is not one of my favorite past times. Actually, it kind of gets me going a little bit to see others do it. With that in mind, let's discuss lying.

Here's a verse...

Rev 21:7-8
8 " But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NASU


Is it safe to say that liars will not go to heaven?

Yet, we know that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others lied but went to heaven.

What am I getting at? Is it true that if one lies, that makes them a liar? In my mind, no. In order to be a liar, I think it means a life style. Please be patient and allow me to get more personal.

When I was very young in the Lord, I had a habitual sin. It would come out every so often. I was ashamed of it and tired of losing to it. I went to the Lord about it in much condemnation. Now, God did set me free of it. But not before teaching me a very valid lesson. I remember one time, in prayer before the Lord, I was concerned over my habit. Yet, the Lord responded to me "yesterday, when you sinned, how long did it last". "Lord, for about 15 minutes I was in utter sin." "What were you doing the rest of the day Mark?" "I was walking in victory over this sin!" What a great lesson that was for me to learn! I had been victorious for much longer than I had been a failure. I was learning to see me as God was seeing me. After that, the Lord began to help me overcome.

So if one lies once a day, is that a lifestyle? Does it make them a liar? I think not. A liar is one who has lying in their heart and who is defined by their actions. It is one who embraces lying as a way of life. There is a big difference between someone who lies, and someone who is a liar. One may lie, without depending on lying as a means of life.

So personally, when I say something is a lie. I am not intending to call someone a liar. Abraham lied. But he is in heaven. We know liars don't go there. Nor do fornicators, yet Abraham is in heaven though he committed fornication.

Just food for thought.

A820djd
Dec 12th 2007, 09:34 PM
Wouldn't that verse suggest that the liars are of the world...? So IMO this verse suggests the people who don't turn to Christ...

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 09:42 PM
Wouldn't that verse suggest that the liars are of the world...? So IMO this verse suggests the people who don't turn to Christ...

That is exactly what I was going to say because when we are saved - all our sins are covered and we are no longer under judgment.

We have already died and been judged (in His righteousness - not our own)

So for those who are planning to handle the judgment on their own and think they are a 'good' person should tremble at that scripture because God is a just judge and will not wink at that little white lie or the lie that was 'justified'

We no longer want to lie because we love Him and want to honor Him in all we do. But we still will fall victim to temptations - but that does not mean we are under judgment.

A820djd
Dec 12th 2007, 09:46 PM
That is exactly what I was going to say because when we are saved - all our sins are covered and we are no longer under judgment.

We have already died and been judged (in His righteousness - not our own)

So for those who are planning to handle the judgment on their own and think they are a 'good' person should tremble at that scripture because God is a just judge and will not wink at that little white lie or the lie that was 'justified'

We no longer want to lie because we love Him and want to honor Him in all we do. But we still will fall victim to temptations - but that does not mean we are under judgment.


Well basically we will always lie, thats almost goes without saying... If it's our wife during her pregnancy asking if she looks good you're going to say "I've never seen a more gawjus lady in muh life!" Lying is still lying despite what it's about isn't it? Also since people wanna be "good" and thats it, well... I guess thats a start... But see I did a double decker, I do good deeds for random people at the store or wherever on TOP of being saved, I think God likes that. :)

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 09:46 PM
That is exactly what I was going to say because when we are saved - all our sins are covered and we are no longer under judgment.

We have already died and been judged (in His righteousness - not our own)

So for those who are planning to handle the judgment on their own and think they are a 'good' person should tremble at that scripture because God is a just judge and will not wink at that little white lie or the lie that was 'justified'

We no longer want to lie because we love Him and want to honor Him in all we do. But we still will fall victim to temptations - but that does not mean we are under judgment.

No problem so far. But what of the believer that lies. Is he a liar?

Scripture does indicate there will be no liars or fornicators in heaven. Yet David committed adultery. Does that make him a fornicator?

Do you guys see what I am getting at? One who lies is not defined by lying unless he embraces that in his heart as a lifestyle. David did not embrace his sin as a lifestyle and quickly repented. Hence our identity is not revealed in our actions of sin as much as our frailty and/or our belief system is revealed.

So, to ask again, is a believer who tells one lie a liar?

Semi-tortured
Dec 12th 2007, 09:51 PM
I agree that all those things are lifestyles. If a man screws up and cheats on his wife, he is an adulterer. But I think God is talking about people who live the lifestyle and are unrepentent of it. I've been an idolater, liar, fornicator (in my mind, I'm a virgin as far as physically), murderer (since hate is considered murder in your heart), slanderer, drunkard, cowardly and selfish. And I think it's safe to say that 90% of the people on this board have been all those things as well. Christ is the reason I'm forgiven of these things.

Ayala
Dec 12th 2007, 09:57 PM
Liars, adulterers, murderers, coveters, and all other labels of sin alike. Obviously we were all as such before Christ, but those who have sincerely forsaken their flesh, no longer serve their wills to carry out such sin and are no longer the liars, adulterers, murderers, coveters, and sinners they once were.

EDIT: I believe one must be careful here though...For if you give yourself even the smallest bit of false self-assurance by stating "I don't do that enough for it to define my lifestyle so I shouldn't be worried"...You're already giving your old nature a new foothold. Becoming satisified with your current state of resolve against sin is one of the most dangerous things you can do.

Tanya~
Dec 12th 2007, 09:58 PM
Hi Mark,

I found it interesting when I looked up the Greek word. It is an adjective, not a noun. I think this helps to understand what is meant. The word means lying, deceitful, false. It's talking about one who is characterized by deception, lying, falsehood.


So if one lies once a day, is that a lifestyle? Does it make them a liar? I think not. A liar is one who has lying in their heart and who is defined by their actions. It is one who embraces lying as a way of life. There is a big difference between someone who lies, and someone who is a liar. One may lie, without depending on lying as a means of life.

(I'm not arguing against you here, just wanting some clarification, ok?) Can you give an example of someone who lies once a day yet is not a liar? I'm not sure how you are making the distinction between someone who embraces lying as a way of life, vs. lying. The reason is that liars usually lie. If you make a habit of lying, how do you know you're not a liar? Lying once a day seems like an awful lot of lying to me. Abraham did lie. So did Jacob. Jacob was actually quite deceptive in what he did to his father, at his mother's direction. But I don't think either of them had a habit of lying once a day or once a week or something like that.

But I do agree with you that this is talking about someone who is characteristically deceptive.

threebigrocks
Dec 12th 2007, 10:00 PM
No problem so far. But what of the believer that lies. Is he a liar?

Scripture does indicate there will be no liars or fornicators in heaven. Yet David committed adultery. Does that make him a fornicator?

Do you guys see what I am getting at? One who lies is not defined by lying unless he embraces that in his heart as a lifestyle. David did not embrace his sin as a lifestyle and quickly repented. Hence our identity is not revealed in our actions of sin as much as our frailty and/or our belief system is revealed.

So, to ask again, is a believer who tells one lie a liar?

Logically, yes, without a doubt.

In God's eyes, yes, without a doubt.

Does that person remain a liar? :hmm:

A820djd
Dec 12th 2007, 10:07 PM
Logically, yes, without a doubt.

In God's eyes, yes, without a doubt.

Does that person remain a liar? :hmm:


I believe the question that should be asked is that is this person a person of the world or a person of Christ? A human is a liar, saved or not, humans are liars period. Christ died for everyone mind you, but it's those who choose to accept this fact is the more important deal. :) Thats my two cents. ;)

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 10:08 PM
(I'm not arguing against you here, just wanting some clarification, ok?) Can you give an example of someone who lies once a day yet is not a liar?

Abraham is the example I want to use. He lied one time that I know about in scripture. Maybe it occurred more but I haven't bothered to count. Is he a liar?



But I do agree with you that this is talking about someone who is characteristically deceptive.
That's my point. It is a character trait, or more importantly, an issue of the heart, not used to describe someone who has lied or who might lie again.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 10:10 PM
No problem so far. But what of the believer that lies. Is he a liar?

Scripture does indicate there will be no liars or fornicators in heaven. Yet David committed adultery. Does that make him a fornicator?

Do you guys see what I am getting at? One who lies is not defined by lying unless he embraces that in his heart as a lifestyle. David did not embrace his sin as a lifestyle and quickly repented. Hence our identity is not revealed in our actions of sin as much as our frailty and/or our belief system is revealed.

So, to ask again, is a believer who tells one lie a liar?

Absolutely. We are all liars and every other sinful word that we can label ourselves with. BUT we are saved by grace. There is nothing about our salvation that is of us.

In Matthew 5,6, and 7 Jesus took exceptional time to show the pharisees how far from perfection their best was.

Even if we minded our peas and q's to the n'th degree - we would still be sinners.

There are no liars, etc in heaven as described in the scripture you quoted because only those born again of a new spirit - to the second Adam - no longer slaves to sin but victors through Christ - are in heaven.

But it is not of our righteousness but our faith in Him that we are accounted to righteousness.

Gen 15:5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

All righteousness throughout the scriptures from the beginning to the end is in trust and faith in Him - not our works - and 'not lying' to enter heaven would be works.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 10:11 PM
Logically, yes, without a doubt.

In God's eyes, yes, without a doubt.

Does that person remain a liar? :hmm:

So when one lies, God sees a liar? I don't think so. For if this person is saved, God sees a believer, not one who is defined by their lies. He convicts, chastises and refines the believer who lied. A liar won't make it in.

In other words, calling one a liar, is a judgment on the heart. While lies come from the heart, one can be righteous and lie. Abraham did it. ;) He wasn't a liar. And when he lied, God was going to kill the one who was deceived by the lie. And he told the guy to go to Abraham and have Abraham pray for him ALL BEFORE ABRAHAM repented of his lie.

By logic, Abraham could not be a liar, because there are no liars in heaven. And before he repented of it, God wanted him to pray for a man.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 10:12 PM
Absolutely. We are all liars and every other sinful word that we can label ourselves with. BUT we are saved by grace. There is nothing about our salvation that is of us.

In Matthew 5,6, and 7 Jesus took exceptional time to show the pharisees how far from perfection their best was.

Even if we minded our peas and q's to the n'th degree - we would still be sinners.

There are no liars, etc in heaven as described in the scripture you quoted because only those born again of a new spirit - to the second Adam - no longer slaves to sin but victors through Christ - are in heaven.

But it is not of our righteousness but our faith in Him that we are accounted to righteousness.

Gen 15:5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

All righteousness throughout the scriptures from the beginning to the end is in trust and faith in Him - not our works - and 'not lying' to enter heaven would be works.

Can I find my identity in Christ and in my sin at the same time?

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 10:15 PM
To try to reckon if a person is going to heaven based on their behavior is measuring one man against another. We have to be measured against Christ. We will never measure up.

That is the reason for the depth of our love - because of the incredibly great gift He gave us to pay our debt - for past, present, and all future sins.

Even things we don't even think are a sin - in man's eyes - like those little white lies are still sin. But because we have already died with Him on the cross, been judged already, and have been judged righteous because of His payment, then born again a new creation sealed with a deposit of the Holy Spirit - we are no longer under the law.


Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Sonship Through the Spirit

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
From Suffering to Glory

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[b] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[c]

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 10:15 PM
Can I find my identity in Christ and in my sin at the same time?

I don't understand your question.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 10:18 PM
To try to reckon if a person is going to heaven based on their behavior is measuring one man against another. We have to be measured against Christ. We will never measure up.

That is the reason for the depth of our love - because of the incredibly great gift He gave us to pay our debt - for past, present, and all future sins.

Even things we don't even think are a sin - in man's eyes - like those little white lies are still sin. But because we have already died with Him on the cross, been judged already, and have been judged righteous because of His payment, then born again a new creation sealed with a deposit of the Holy Spirit - we are no longer under the law.

Right. I am not saying lying is not a sin. I am saying, we must be careful when we use that to identify another.

For instance, I see a lie as a deed but one who commits that deed is not necessarily a liar. How can I continue in that to which I am dead? If I am dead to sin, how can I be identified by a sin?

In other words a liar will lie. But one who tells a lie in a tight spot, I do not believe is identified as a liar by our Lord Jesus.

One term is a judgment. The other is not. One looks into a heart and defines an individual. The other looks to a deed a defines the deed.

The_Forgotten_One
Dec 12th 2007, 10:20 PM
For the most part; that sounds reasonable… But you might want to inform ray comfort about the difference between someone who has lied, and a liar.:cool:

Sincerely,
The Forgotten One

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 10:20 PM
I don't understand your question.

Can I consider myself a liar (an identity) and yet be alive in Christ and totally his (a Christian). For instance, can I be identified as a liar, when I am dead to sin and alive to Christ.

Paul said I have been crucified with him, yet, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ who liveth in me.

Or that I am complete in Him. There are many things I am in Christ. Can I be a liar and be in Christ?

I can lie and be in Him. But if I am a liar, am I in Him?

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 10:30 PM
Can I consider myself a liar (an identity) and yet be alive in Christ and totally his (a Christian). For instance, can I be identified as a liar, when I am dead to sin and alive to Christ.

Paul said I have been crucified with him, yet, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ who liveth in me.

Or that I am complete in Him. There are many things I am in Christ. Can I be a liar and be in Christ?

I can lie and be in Him. But if I am a liar, am I in Him?

If I am understanding you correctly you are asking if we step in and out of our salvation based on our behavior? I have come to know your writings well enough to know you are not saying that - so back to saying HUH?

A person is either a Christian or they are not. And to say we do not sin would make us a liar - so we are still sinners - saved by grace.


I thought I would post my stash of born again scriptures to help with the discussion:

John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

John 13:34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

Romans 8:1
[ Life Through the Spirit ] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,


Then there are those who are living a false Christian life and here are those scriptures.

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

1 John 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
1 John 4:20
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

Tanya~
Dec 12th 2007, 10:33 PM
Abraham is the example I want to use. He lied one time that I know about in scripture. Maybe it occurred more but I haven't bothered to count. Is he a liar?

Did you mean once a day, or did you mean one time? I think there's a difference. Abraham was fearful for his life because of the customs of the time (actually he was deceptive about his wife twice, but she WAS his sister -- Sarah was Abraham's half-sister). My question to you for clarification had to do with the idea of lying on a daily basis yet not being a liar.

I'm in agreement with you, just wondering about that one point. I do think that if a person justifies lying, that counts as a liar even if he only lies occasionally. Someone who thinks its ok for him to lie once a day or once in a while probably would qualify as a liar. The heart has a way of exposing itself in actions.

A similar question would be how many murders would it take for one to be a murderer? David murdered once, so did Moses. Does that mean it's okay for me to murder one person, so long as I don't make a lifestyle of it? If I have murder in my heart for just one person, then doesn't that make me a murderer?

Good topic Mark.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Dec 12th 2007, 10:36 PM
TanyaP took this question exactly as I did:

The original text does not denote a man who fibs. It is an adjective that means to deceive, IE: Turns others from Christ by tempting them out of a deception. Satan is referred to as "the great deceiver" for his "lies" to Eve in the garden.

That's what it means to me. We know lying is wrong, of course, but THIS scripture you quoted probably was written to address those that deceive others in a manner that draws them away from salvation.

Feel free to pick it apart, it is just my understanding.

Tanya~
Dec 12th 2007, 10:51 PM
Its interesting to compare the passage in Revelation with something Paul wrote to Timothy:


1 Tim 1:8-11
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
The word for 'liars' here is 'falsifier,' one who utters falsehoods and lies. Paul refers to the law of Moses where it says this:


Lev 19:11-12
'You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 And you shall not swear by My name falsely, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

He reiterates it here:


Col 3:8-10
But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him
This is an interesting thread to me because before I was a believer, I know that I was a liar. But I learned something about the source of lies and that knowledge cured me:


John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 11:03 PM
Did you mean once a day, or did you mean one time? I think there's a difference. Abraham was fearful for his life because of the customs of the time (actually he was deceptive about his wife twice, but she WAS his sister -- Sarah was Abraham's half-sister). My question to you for clarification had to do with the idea of lying on a daily basis yet not being a liar.

I'm in agreement with you, just wondering about that one point. I do think that if a person justifies lying, that counts as a liar even if he only lies occasionally. Someone who thinks its ok for him to lie once a day or once in a while probably would qualify as a liar. The heart has a way of exposing itself in actions.

A similar question would be how many murders would it take for one to be a murderer? David murdered once, so did Moses. Does that mean it's okay for me to murder one person, so long as I don't make a lifestyle of it? If I have murder in my heart for just one person, then doesn't that make me a murderer?

Good topic Mark.

I don't know where I would draw the line Tanya. Why should I know? I am not God. For me, I feel that calling a deed a lie is far different than calling a person a liar. One is judgment one is not.

When scripture says "examine yourself" I take that to heart. For instance, it was that very thing that led me to my cry to God. For instance, my sin occurred daily at the time. Yet, God was pointing out to me that for most of the day, I was victorious over temptation. I hated it, yet I was weak. The point is, I don't know when someone is a liar. I just know that telling a lie, does not make on a liar by definition.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 11:05 PM
Its interesting to compare the passage in Revelation with something Paul wrote to Timothy:

1 Tim 1:8-11
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
The word for 'liars' here is 'falsifier,' one who utters falsehoods and lies. Paul refers to the law of Moses where it says this:

Lev 19:11-12
'You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 And you shall not swear by My name falsely, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.
He reiterates it here:

Col 3:8-10
But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him
This is an interesting thread to me because before I was a believer, I know that I was a liar. But I learned something about the source of lies and that knowledge cured me:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.



Right. Notice how he makes a difference in identity in one set of verses and deeds in another.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 11:09 PM
If I am understanding you correctly you are asking if we step in and out of our salvation based on our behavior? I have come to know your writings well enough to know you are not saying that - so back to saying HUH?

You are right. I am not saying that. Nor do I want this thread to turn into a OSAS or NOSAS thread because I don't believe our views on that should impact what I am saying here.


A person is either a Christian or they are not. And to say we do not sin would make us a liar - so we are still sinners - saved by grace.No. I disagree. I am not a sinner. I was a sinner but I am now hidden in Christ and my identity is in him. Now, if I said I had no sin at all, then I would be made a liar per scripture. I am saying my sin does not define me. Jesus does.

When the new testament referred to Lot, it called him righteous. Yet, when we look at his life, he had sin in it. He ended up in Sodom, yet God called him righteous. That's my point. Calling someone a liar is a judgment made on the heart. Saying this is a lie is a statement about a deed.

Your scriptures are exactly what I am talking about. False believers are called liars. Believers are not.

Ruth2
Dec 12th 2007, 11:13 PM
[quote=Ruth2;1469685]If I am understanding you correctly you are asking if we step in and out of our salvation based on our behavior? I have come to know your writings well enough to know you are not saying that - so back to saying HUH?[quote]

You are right. I am not saying that. Nor do I want this thread to turn into a OSAS or NOSAS thread because I don't believe our views on that should impact what I am saying here.

No. I disagree. I am not a sinner. I was a sinner but I am not a hidden in Christ and my identity is in him. Now, if I said I had no sin at all, then I would be made a liar per scripture. I am saying my sin does not define me. Jesus does.

When the new testament referred to Lot, it called him righteous. Yet, when we look at his life, he had sin in it. He ended up in Sodom, yet God called him righteous. That's my point. Calling someone a liar is a judgment made on the heart. Saying this is a lie is a statement about a deed.

Your scriptures are exactly what I am talking about. False believers are called liars. Believers are not.

I think we agree completely - it is just the way it is being said where we are not having a meeting of the minds.

But we are in full agreement and THANK YOU for not taking this down the OSAS NSAS road :pp I am so tired of those discussions.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 11:17 PM
I think we agree completely - it is just the way it is being said where we are not having a meeting of the minds.

But we are in full agreement and THANK YOU for not taking this down the OSAS NSAS road :pp I am so tired of those discussions.

Well thank you for the discussion! I am glad we find agreement. Oh, I stay out of those OSAS vs NOSAS threads. They ain't for me. ;)

cwb
Dec 12th 2007, 11:18 PM
Rev 21:7-8
8 " But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


I think the timing of this verse needs to be taken into to cosideration. By the time this verse happens we will have been given new incorruptible bodies and have been living in a world where Christ has been ruling for 1000 years.

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 11:21 PM
Rev 21:7-8
8 " But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


I think the timing of this verse needs to be taken into to cosideration. By the time this verse happens we will have been given new incorruptible bodies and have been living in a world where Christ has been ruling for 1000 years.

The point can be made with other scriptures. I just happened to choose that one. Tanya has quoted others above.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 13th 2007, 12:25 AM
The point can be made with other scriptures. I just happened to choose that one. Tanya has quoted others above.

Hi Mark!
It is correct that there will not be liars, murderers, fornicators etc: in heaven, for we will be changed. For the corruptible shall put on incorruptible. Christ Jesus will present us to the Father without spot, blemish or stain.
I think what Paul is pointing out when he say's this is, since there will be no such person in heaven, let us in faith strive to be without spot, blemish or stain now, whilst in these earthly corruptible tents.

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 12:55 AM
Hi Mark!
It is correct that there will not be liars, murderers, fornicators etc: in heaven, for we will be changed. For the corruptible shall put on incorruptible. Christ Jesus will present us to the Father without spot, blemish or stain.
I think what Paul is pointing out when he say's this is, since there will be no such person in heaven, let us in faith strive to be without spot, blemish or stain now, whilst in these earthly corruptible tents.

Excellent points!

Tanya~
Dec 13th 2007, 01:24 AM
This has a good sound and it is true, but there is more to it than that:


1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
The passage in Revelation isn't only talking about the fact that no sin will be in the kingdom, but also that those who follow such things in this life will not have entrance into the kingdom.

Unrighteousness disqualifies a person from the kingdom. This is why believers are warned about it, so that we can repent and live according to the will of God.

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 01:28 AM
This has a good sound and it is true, but there is more to it than that:


1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.The passage in Revelation isn't only talking about the fact that no sin will be in the kingdom, but also that those who follow such things in this life will not have entrance into the kingdom.

Unrighteousness disqualifies a person from the kingdom. This is why believers are warned about it, so that we can repent and live according to the will of God.

So what do you think happens when a Christian does one of the things on that list? Jesus said if a man looks at a woman and lusts in his heart- that he is guilty of adultry.

Brother Mark
Dec 13th 2007, 01:53 AM
So what do you think happens when a Christian does one of the things on that list? Jesus said if a man looks at a woman and lusts in his heart- that he is guilty of adultry.

That's the point of the thread. Doing one of these acts does not make one the thing on the list. One who lust in his heart is not an adulterer if he continually repents before the Lord, hates his sin, and wishes to be free of it. But one who embraces lust in his heart, he is a fornicator.

This is what I am getting at about calling someone a liar as opposed to saying a statement is a lie. One who is a liar won't get into heaven. But one who says a lie, is not necessarily a liar. Same with fornication, etc. It is a lifestyle of sin that defines a person not a failure or stumble. And one who is a child of God will be struck in his heart by God because of the sin and repentance should follow.

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 02:00 AM
That's the point of the thread. Doing one of these acts does not make one the thing on the list. One who lust in his heart is not an adulterer if he continually repents before the Lord, hates his sin, and wishes to be free of it. But one who embraces lust in his heart, he is a fornicator.

This is what I am getting at about calling someone a liar as opposed to saying a statement is a lie. One who is a liar won't get into heaven. But one who says a lie, is not necessarily a liar. Same with fornication, etc. It is a lifestyle of sin that defines a person not a failure or stumble. And one who is a child of God will be struck in his heart by God because of the sin and repentance should follow.

Oh I know that - I was asking TanyaP because of her last statement.


Unrighteousness disqualifies a person from the kingdom. This is why believers are warned about it, so that we can repent and live according to the will of God.


Why would a believer need to be warned and repent if they are already clothed in His righteousness.

I was getting the impression from her statement that she was saying that a believer will be judged - or worse yet kept out of heaven if they did not repent.

I don't know - maybe I have spent to much time debating OSAS ;)

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 02:02 AM
That's the point of the thread. Doing one of these acts does not make one the thing on the list. One who lust in his heart is not an adulterer if he continually repents before the Lord, hates his sin, and wishes to be free of it. But one who embraces lust in his heart, he is a fornicator.

This is what I am getting at about calling someone a liar as opposed to saying a statement is a lie. One who is a liar won't get into heaven. But one who says a lie, is not necessarily a liar. Same with fornication, etc. It is a lifestyle of sin that defines a person not a failure or stumble. And one who is a child of God will be struck in his heart by God because of the sin and repentance should follow.

Yes - but it does not keep one out of heaven. If they die sometime in between the sin and the repentance - if they are truly born again - they are still going to heaven.

I think that is where so many people get tripped up and do not enjoy their freedom in their salvation. Jesus said His yoke is light because it is all about love.

Brother Mark
Dec 13th 2007, 02:05 AM
Why would a believer need to be warned and repent if they are already clothed in His righteousness.

I was getting the impression from her statement that she was saying that a believer will be judged - or worse yet kept out of heaven if they did not repent.

I don't know - maybe I have spent to much time debating OSAS ;)

Yea. We can go down that road if we're not careful. I don't know her stand on it. But I don't think she is suggesting or hinting at anything like that. She's just clarifying that the passage is a warning and not just talking about what we will be made into once we reach heaven. I was going to reply in the same way, that the verses were given as warnings. Or said another way, Paul wrote "test yourselves and see if you are of the faith". In many passages he has said "fornicators will not be there". So we better make sure we are not fornicators, nor liars, nor adulturers, etc.

Tanya~
Dec 13th 2007, 03:29 AM
Oh I know that - I was asking TanyaP because of her last statement.


Why would a believer need to be warned and repent if they are already clothed in His righteousness.

Paul was talking to believers, which is clearly evident in the quote. I believe the reason why, is because what he says there is the truth, and that believers need to take heed to the warning and not be deceived about it because some will choose to follow after such things even though they have been washed and cleansed, and even after they have been warned in the clearest possible language.


I was getting the impression from her statement that she was saying that a believer will be judged - or worse yet kept out of heaven if they did not repent.

Repentance is an absolute necessity for salvation. John the baptist, Jesus, Peter, and Paul all stressed the necessity for repentance.

But many of us are not aware that we certainly will stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


2 Cor 5:9-11
Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 03:57 AM
Paul was talking to believers, which is clearly evident in the quote. I believe the reason why, is because what he says there is the truth, and that believers need to take heed to the warning and not be deceived about it because some will choose to follow after such things even though they have been washed and cleansed, and even after they have been warned in the clearest possible language.



Repentance is an absolute necessity for salvation. John the baptist, Jesus, Peter, and Paul all stressed the necessity for repentance.

But many of us are not aware that we certainly will stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


2 Cor 5:9-11


Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.


I agree completely that repentance is extremely important for someone to be born again. I know for myself - I believe being born again was more painful than being born the first time. I weeped and mourned my sins and the pain I had caused Him for a long time.

But once a person has been born again - following His will and repenting is all a part of living as a child of God to please Him and is completely separate from our position in our salvation.

Do you agree? If so - then I am having a hard time reconciling your statements. Please help me understand. :hug:

Tanya~
Dec 13th 2007, 04:36 AM
I agree completely that repentance is extremely important for someone to be born again. I know for myself - I believe being born again was more painful than being born the first time. I weeped and mourned my sins and the pain I had caused Him for a long time.

But once a person has been born again - following His will and repenting is all a part of living as a child of God to please Him and is completely separate from our position in our salvation.

Do you agree? If so - then I am having a hard time reconciling your statements. Please help me understand. :hug:

Well mostly, I just quoted Paul's statements. I know they are hard to hear. That's why he warned, "Don't be deceived." There are at least two other passages that are very similar. One is in Galatians 5, and the other is in Ephesians 5. They all say the same thing, essentially. It would be fine with me if you would just ignore my statements, and listen to the Scriptures. Rather than me trying to explain what I have said, and having it turn into a debate (which it undoubtedly would), I would prefer that you just consider the Scriptures and seek the Lord concerning His will for us. :hug:

Follow_Me_Infantry
Dec 13th 2007, 06:53 AM
TanyaP took this question exactly as I did:

The original text does not denote a man who fibs. It is an adjective that means to deceive, IE: Turns others from Christ by tempting them out of a deception. Satan is referred to as "the great deceiver" for his "lies" to Eve in the garden.

That's what it means to me. We know lying is wrong, of course, but THIS scripture you quoted probably was written to address those that deceive others in a manner that draws them away from salvation.

Feel free to pick it apart, it is just my understanding.

I finally found the scripture I was looking for! This is from the NIV, and I believe it addresses the Greek adjective for deceiver:


2 John 1:7

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

When Revelation talks about no liars in Heaven, I believe the verbiage denotes a deceiver, described in the above verse, that turns others from salvation.

The Greek in both 2 John 1:7 and in Revelations 21:8 is the same.

Also:

Matthew 12:23

Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the worldto come.

Thoughts?

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 02:34 PM
Well mostly, I just quoted Paul's statements. I know they are hard to hear. That's why he warned, "Don't be deceived." There are at least two other passages that are very similar. One is in Galatians 5, and the other is in Ephesians 5. They all say the same thing, essentially. It would be fine with me if you would just ignore my statements, and listen to the Scriptures. Rather than me trying to explain what I have said, and having it turn into a debate (which it undoubtedly would), I would prefer that you just consider the Scriptures and seek the Lord concerning His will for us. :hug:

Please forgive me if I am reading this wrong but this is what I think you are trying to convey with those passages:
You believe that we can lose our salvation if we sin after being born again and if we die in between sinning and repenting - we will go to hell?

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 02:38 PM
I finally found the scripture I was looking for! This is from the NIV, and I believe it addresses the Greek adjective for deceiver:


2 John 1:7

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

When Revelation talks about no liars in Heaven, I believe the verbiage denotes a deceiver, described in the above verse, that turns others from salvation.

The Greek in both 2 John 1:7 and in Revelations 21:8 is the same.

Also:

Matthew 12:23

Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the worldto come.

Thoughts?

I think you are saying that those who deceive others away from salvation will not be forgiven? That this is a sin that is unforgivable?

Can you lay out your points (1, 2, 3) that you are seeing in these scriptures so, for me anyway as others may not need this?

This is how I think you are seeing it - please correct me if I am wrong.

1. A person who deceives another person away from salvation cannot be forgiven for that.
2. My concern with that is that this actually would be another unforgivable sin.
3. This is what Paul did and so have many others who are now in the light and have seen their error.

So - maybe I am reading what you are saying all wrong. :dunno:

Tanya~
Dec 13th 2007, 02:57 PM
Please forgive me if I am reading this wrong but this is what I think you are trying to convey with those passages:
You believe that we can lose our salvation if we sin after being born again and if we die in between sinning and repenting - we will go to hell?

The question isn't so much what I am trying to convey with those passages, but what God is telling us through those passages. The passages themselves say what they say. All I did was point them out. If you want to debate the topic, we should take it to another thread so as not to hijack Mark's thread.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Dec 13th 2007, 02:57 PM
I think you are saying that those who deceive others away from salvation will not be forgiven? That this is a sin that is unforgivable?

Can you lay out your points (1, 2, 3) that you are seeing in these scriptures so, for me anyway as others may not need this?

This is how I think you are seeing it - please correct me if I am wrong.

1. A person who deceives another person away from salvation cannot be forgiven for that.
2. My concern with that is that this actually would be another unforgivable sin.
3. This is what Paul did and so have many others who are now in the light and have seen their error.

So - maybe I am reading what you are saying all wrong. :dunno:

I'm probably saying it wrong. Lessee:

1. A person who intentionally lies (deceives) to keep others from accepting Christ, and dies before accepting salvation, will not be found in Heaven.

I read this to mean as more a correlation than a conflict: We already know that some will never accept salvation and not see heaven. John is telling us that some of those refusing Christ will work to keep others from accepting Christ - Mr. Pullman of the ever-debated Golden Compass threads here comes to mind as a person John warns/informs us about.

I also read into this a bit: I also think we're being told that it is very unlikely for someone who successfully deceives many to get saved; that they will find power in their convictions and, thus, will be extremely unlikely to be changed/saved.

2. So the Revelations verse is simply a fact: When Jesus returns, it's too late for intentional deceivers to turn. Others will have a chance, but these people that have endeavored their lives against Christ are not going to get the "sorry, free go around" that others will be privy to because their hearts will just be too hardened.

Is that better at all?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 13th 2007, 03:03 PM
This has a good sound and it is true, but there is more to it than that:


1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.The passage in Revelation isn't only talking about the fact that no sin will be in the kingdom, but also that those who follow such things in this life will not have entrance into the kingdom.

Unrighteousness disqualifies a person from the kingdom. This is why believers are warned about it, so that we can repent and live according to the will of God.

Hi Tanya!
My take on the 'unrighteous' is a condition of the person, not an act. There are many who are so called good people, who don't believe they will to be rejected by God, but God say's that no one is righteous.
Jesus Christ is righteous, and Jesus Christ is our righteousness, and therefore we 'in Christ' are righteous.

Many take this verse, as a measure of works of righteousness needed;
Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

But let us look at this verse;
Matt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

None greater then John the Baptist, and yet he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater. That would infer that John the Baptist (as far as his own works) would not be in the kingdom of heaven.

So who can be saved?

Does that mean that (as far as works of righteousness goes) we have to exceed those works of John the Baptist?

Tanya~
Dec 13th 2007, 03:29 PM
That would infer that John the Baptist (as far as his own works) would not be in the kingdom of heaven.

I think you infer what the text does not actually imply, though I do understand why you would have that impression. Do you really think John will not be in the kingdom of heaven?

Matt 11:11-15
"Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
It doesn't say that John will not be in the kingdom; rather, it says that he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John. Jesus is using John to compare the greatness of men of this world or this age with the greatness of those of the kingdom of heaven. John is the greatest of all. But in the kingdom he who is least will be greater even than John was.

I don't think it's talking about John's works or relative moral righteousness at all, but about his greatness as a prophet. John was the greatest because he was the forerunner to Christ.

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 03:30 PM
The question isn't so much what I am trying to convey with those passages, but what God is telling us through those passages. The passages themselves say what they say. All I did was point them out. If you want to debate the topic, we should take it to another thread so as not to hijack Mark's thread.

No need. I truly have discussed this topic enough. I am fully convinced in my own heart. We can agree to disagree and move on. :hug:

Tanya~
Dec 13th 2007, 03:31 PM
Oh good, I'm glad! I don't really want to debate it either. :)

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 03:35 PM
I'm probably saying it wrong. Lessee:

1. A person who intentionally lies (deceives) to keep others from accepting Christ, and dies before accepting salvation, will not be found in Heaven.

I read this to mean as more a correlation than a conflict: We already know that some will never accept salvation and not see heaven. John is telling us that some of those refusing Christ will work to keep others from accepting Christ - Mr. Pullman of the ever-debated Golden Compass threads here comes to mind as a person John warns/informs us about.

I also read into this a bit: I also think we're being told that it is very unlikely for someone who successfully deceives many to get saved; that they will find power in their convictions and, thus, will be extremely unlikely to be changed/saved.

2. So the Revelations verse is simply a fact: When Jesus returns, it's too late for intentional deceivers to turn. Others will have a chance, but these people that have endeavored their lives against Christ are not going to get the "sorry, free go around" that others will be privy to because their hearts will just be too hardened.

Is that better at all?

I think so. The only thing I will say is that I think Mr. Pullman would possibly be a modern day Paul. And with God all thing are possible. :)

Until a person truly dies - we really cannot know so we can fervently preach without judgment on any one.

I would not want to tell someone that there is no hope. As long as a person is still alive and has breath and can choose - which none of us know the day or the hour when that will change - there is hope.

You may be right in your assessment but again, you could be wrong.
So for the sake of giving God the benefit of the doubt in changing anyone's heart to receive His gift of grace - I'm going to lean on the side of caution here.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Dec 13th 2007, 03:44 PM
Oh, I absolutely agree! As long as someone is breathing, there is a chance for them to be saved! And I am praying fervently for Mr. Pullman and all other Paul-not-yet-Saul's out there.

It will be harder for them to accept, just as it is for a rich man.

And when Jesus makes His glorious return, it'll be too late for them

I guess those are the two things I was trying to say.

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 03:50 PM
Oh, I absolutely agree! As long as someone is breathing, there is a chance for them to be saved! And I am praying fervently for Mr. Pullman and all other Paul-not-yet-Saul's out there.

It will be harder for them to accept, just as it is for a rich man.

And when Jesus makes His glorious return, it'll be too late for them

I guess those are the two things I was trying to say.

I really don't see how this could be true. Why would He bother to return then? He is returning to rescue the world from their certain destruction.
Those who believe without seeing (the body of Christ - the church) have a special blessing. Those who will turn to Him when He returns - when they call out for their messiah - will be saved.

At least that is IMHO.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Dec 13th 2007, 04:11 PM
I really don't see how this could be true. Why would He bother to return then? He is returning to rescue the world from their certain destruction.
Those who believe without seeing (the body of Christ - the church) have a special blessing. Those who will turn to Him when He returns - when they call out for their messiah - will be saved.

At least that is IMHO.

Then I don't understand why it was included in the book of Revelations. We're told many will not enter the kingdom, and liars (deceivers) is one of those groups.

I simply drew from that and extrapolated. If everyone was going to be rescued then I don't get Rev 8 at all.

Sorry, I just don't know. Who are all these deceivers that will perish in Rev 8?

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 04:16 PM
Then I don't understand why it was included in the book of Revelations. We're told many will not enter the kingdom, and liars (deceivers) is one of those groups.

I simply drew from that and extrapolated. If everyone was going to be rescued then I don't get Rev 8 at all.

Sorry, I just don't know. Who are all these deceivers that will perish in Rev 8?

I think they are warnings to people about the fact that they cannot 'play' things out and then expect to claim the name of Jesus to get in.
Matthew 7 says


21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


So, while I agree with you that it is a warning. I don't think we can say definitively who is and isn't going to hear those frightening words.

Only the Lord knows each person's heart and the end result. We can head the warnings, we can profess to others the warnings - but as far as drawing any conclusions - I think what happened to Paul is evidence that we cannot know any individual's fate.

threebigrocks
Dec 13th 2007, 05:09 PM
Mr. Pullman a modern day Paul? I am going to assume that you meant Saul. ;) All non-believers could be considered a modern day Saul. That doesn't make them Paul anymore than it did for the real Paul 2000 years ago. We are not to pass judgement on an unbeliever, but their fruit allows us to know that they are not born again, correct?

When we are born again, we do indeed put on Christ. We do indeed become a new creature. We do indeed have a new identity. We are however only saved by faith through grace here and now - it's not concrete, set in stone. (We are still running for the prize.) If it were, why the need for sanctification? Why the need to prove our faith and persevere? Why the warning against yeast and bad fruit and pruning?


Galatians 5

5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

1 Corinthians 9


23I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


When we are born again, the repentance we encounter there is not a
blanket liability policy. If we were a chronic liar, we repent from that and progress toward not lying at all. If we have been adulterous, we need to stop the behavior and progress toward absence of adultery/fornication in our lives. We aren't a switch, as if sin can be turned on and off with one act of repentance because we are still in the flesh. This is sanctification, a progression toward holiness, toward adoption as sons and daughters of the King. We do indeed have the Spirit as a downpayment - but there is still payment left if there is only a downpayment placed now, correct? ;)

Hebrews 12


11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
12Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
13and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.


We cannot change the nature of a lie. It's a lie. If I lie, I'm a liar. I deceive. However, if I own up to it confess and ask forgiveness, extend the forgiveness we receive from the Father to those we have deceived with our lie, and push on dening the flesh that wants us to lie, that is perseverance towards sanctification. It can only come from the heart.


Romans 7


14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


Faith does not change the definition of a lie or one who lies. That lie is still sin. It's our desire to remove ourselves from being a liar that matters because we understand that it is something that is not of God. We cannot continue in heartfelt faith, not working out our faith with fear and trembling and do which is good in God's eyes.

1 Peter 3


8To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;
9not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.
10For,
"THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS,
MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.
11"HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD;
HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.
12"FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER,
BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL."



Ephesians 6


10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.


Matthew 6



8"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
9"Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10'Your kingdom come
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11'Give us this day our daily bread.
12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'
14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 05:18 PM
Of course I meant Saul. But most of us refer to him as Paul so thank you for the clarification.
And yes - fruits do indicate who is and who is not born again but we are also told that only God knows a persons fate and heart.
The point of the discussion was if a person's eternal fate can be known by any of us and for those who are not yet born again - we may know their current eternal fate but only God knows the final results.

I am going to stop there because I believe the rest of your post gets us into the discussion of OSAS or not and I am not going to derail the thread jumping into that topic.
I promised Brother Mark that we would not go there.

threebigrocks
Dec 13th 2007, 05:29 PM
I really don't see how this could be true. Why would He bother to return then? He is returning to rescue the world from their certain destruction.
Those who believe without seeing (the body of Christ - the church) have a special blessing. Those who will turn to Him when He returns - when they call out for their messiah - will be saved.

At least that is IMHO.


This was said to the church at Ephesis:

Revelation 2



15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.



Revelation 19

15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

If we are not on God's side when Christ comes again, at that time it's too late. He will come and slay all that is not of Him.

threebigrocks
Dec 13th 2007, 05:34 PM
Of course I meant Saul. But most of us refer to him as Paul so thank you for the clarification.
And yes - fruits do indicate who is and who is not born again but we are also told that only God knows a persons fate and heart.
The point of the discussion was if a person's eternal fate can be known by any of us and for those who are not yet born again - we may know their current eternal fate but only God knows the final results.

I am going to stop there because I believe the rest of your post gets us into the discussion of OSAS or not and I am not going to derail the thread jumping into that topic.
I promised Brother Mark that we would not go there.

Saul and Paul were two different people, no? :) New creation, new name, and people freaked out when Saul become Paul and stopped persecuting and began to preach in His name.

It's not necessarily N/OSAS unless we want it to be. It's sin nature, and ultimately that's where we land asking a question such as this.

We cannot deny that those who are not born again are destined for hell.

We cannot deny that those who are and walk by faith will be destined for heaven.

It's plain and simple really in that regard. The way we walk it is what becomes contentious.

Ruth2
Dec 13th 2007, 05:37 PM
With all due respect - I am going to bow out of this discussion at this point.
I am concerned that this discussion is not going to be productive.

I have said what I wanted to in this thread and think that everyone's position and points are clear.

I am going to bow out in the light of 2 Tim 2:22-26 for myself.

Brother Mark
Dec 14th 2007, 01:54 AM
When examining our identity, we find many verses that tell us who we are in Christ. Paul makes it clear that liars will not be in heaven. Yet, we also see that people who told lies are there. Either they were changed and are no longer liars, or telling a lie does not make one a liar.

When it comes to our scriptural identity, our deeds do not define us. They do however, reveal many things about us. David murdered a man. Yet, he is not a murder. A murderer is one who embraces the lifestyle or practices it. That is what 1 John teaches us about sin. The one who "practices sin" is the one who is not of the Lord.

To practice sin is more a lifestyle than an occasional stumble. A liar will make a habit of lying, a believer will make a habit of righteousness, but might lie in the right circumstances. Often, God will work the circumstances to reveal that a lie is in our heart and needs to be dealt with. But, we are still as righteous as he is regardless.

Am I saying that we can continue in sin? Nope. Not at all. Just that while man may say that one who lies is a liar, God does not. He makes a distinction between a believer that falls into sin, and one who sins as a lifestyle. No liar, one who lies as a lifestyle, will be in heaven. Nor should one who lies as a lifestyle have any confidence that they will be in heaven. Let us test ourselves.

But let us also find our identity in the righteousness of God and not in our own righteousness. Let us find our identity in what he did for us. Not in our failures.

threebigrocks
Dec 14th 2007, 03:27 AM
I'm saying that there will be forgiven liars in heaven. Just as there will be murderers, fornicators, idolators, etc.

Doesn't change the nature of the sin in the here and now. ;) Now, we live by faith, struggling in the flesh, striving for sanctification. Then, truly adopted children of God, forgiven, if we believe and judged righteous.

Brother Mark
Dec 14th 2007, 03:53 AM
I'm saying that there will be forgiven liars in heaven. Just as there will be murderers, fornicators, idolators, etc.

But scripture doesn't say that there will be forgiven liars there. It says there will not be any liars there. It is significant in my opinion for we are made a new. Liar is a word that identifies the person. It is a defining word. No liars are in heaven. ;) Though I understand what you are saying TBR. I do think it worth pondering what I am laying out here.


Doesn't change the nature of the sin in the here and now. ;) Now, we live by faith, struggling in the flesh, striving for sanctification. Then, truly adopted children of God, forgiven, if we believe and judged righteous.No problems there. We are righteous. We are as righteous as God is. When we are convicted God says "that is a lie", the enemy will attack our character. In the end, most believers need to rest in their identity in Christ and who we are. From there, victory can be had over any habit.

Ayala
Dec 14th 2007, 03:56 AM
This is all semantics. We are sinners, made clean through the blood of Yeshua, our savior. Because of this, when we stand before God, we will be seen as righteous and not as the sinners we were before. I think both sides of this discussion can understand what the other is saying.

Brother Mark
Dec 14th 2007, 04:17 AM
This is all semantics. We are sinners, made clean through the blood of Yeshua, our savior. Because of this, when we stand before God, we will be seen as righteous and not as the sinners we were before. I think both sides of this discussion can understand what the other is saying.

It's more than semantics my friend, from my point of view. It comes down to how one sees himself in Christ. Specifically, I am not so much referring to the one who was a liar and got saved and never lies again. But to the one who is saved and perhaps lied when they were in a difficult situation.

Which of the following statements do you think would be more condemning and which would be more convicting?

Mark, that statement is a lie.

Mark, you are a liar.

If it is only semantics, then the two statements will not have a different amount of power in how they will impact the hearer.

threebigrocks
Dec 14th 2007, 03:21 PM
My view - I am being sanctified in this life. I believe that I will be saved from eternal damnation because of the mercy shown to me, a born again believer, who loves her Lord and Savior and did as best she could to seperate herself from sin to be pleasing to Him. I will not die sinless, but because of dying to self and living for Christ I will be found righteous for His blood covers the sin that I have on me. We are called to be holy, just as our heavenly Father is holy, in a sinful world.

As mortal man we cannot be perfectly holy in this life, but hold out for the hope of being so. I will run the race as if only to win, to strive for that holiness. In despite of my sin nature, which I cannot completely silence in this life, Christ's sacrafice is enough to deem me worthy so long as I remain in communion with Him in despite of the world drawing me toward sin. He who lives in me is greater than the world and staying the course all of that which tries to cause me to stumble has no hold unless I allow it to. Now we only have salvation through faith - then we will have it in full, for real, as adopted sons and daughters of Christ.

Doesn't change the fact that if I lie (or whatever sin is done) I'm a liar. I'm just forgiven is all. Ever prayed "Lord, I'm sorry, that was really, really stupid. Forgive me." ? You can count me in that number.;)

Look at Peter on the day of the crucifixion. He denied Christ three times. He lied. But he was forgiven because he came to understand that perseverance would bring him to what Christ promised - hope of eternal life to come, eternal salvation. Peter got knocked off the track, but he got up and went back to running the race. So did King David, Moses, etc.

Tanya~
Dec 14th 2007, 04:07 PM
As I was reading your post 3BR, I was thinking about the reason for Abraham's lies. Abraham was a liar, and subjected his wife to a potentially dangerous situation on two separate occasions, because he acted in fear rather than putting his trust in God. Abraham had some trust issues, but when it came to the ultimate test, he passed with flying colors. What I see is a lot of growth over time. And that's what I think you're talking about.

A believer is in a process of sanctification. The Biblical warnings are there to assist us in that process. When we know the truth about these things, they should put the fear of God in us. When we have the fear of God, we can depart from evil.


Job 28:28
28 And to man He said,
'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom,
And to depart from evil is understanding.'"

Prov 3:7-8
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the LORD and depart from evil.
8 It will be health to your flesh,
And strength to your bones.

threebigrocks
Dec 14th 2007, 04:28 PM
As I was reading your post 3BR, I was thinking about the reason for Abraham's lies. Abraham was a liar, and subjected his wife to a potentially dangerous situation on two separate occasions, because he acted in fear rather than putting his trust in God. Abraham had some trust issues, but when it came to the ultimate test, he passed with flying colors. What I see is a lot of growth over time. And that's what I think you're talking about.

A believer is in a process of sanctification. The Biblical warnings are there to assist us in that process. When we know the truth about these things, they should put the fear of God in us. When we have the fear of God, we can depart from evil.


Job 28:28


28 And to man He said,


'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom,


And to depart from evil is understanding.'"



Prov 3:7-8


7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;


Fear the LORD and depart from evil.


8 It will be health to your flesh,


And strength to your bones.


Yes, that is my point exactly Tanya. ;)