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Sam Fisher
Dec 13th 2007, 08:07 PM
I don't know what to do. I've been praying about it for hours and days and weeks. I've fasted, even for three days straight. My mind is in turmoil. All my life I've been a Christian, I've been saved since 1991, baptised in 1992, and have been living for Jesus every minute of every day.

Until now.

My work requires me to use and maintain many sophisticated electronic instruments. A few months ago, I had a particularly difficult time with a GPS (Global Positioning System) device which seemed to be working, but just wasn't producing the correct results. Eventually I began studying the principles on which this device operates. I thought I knew - You're simply triangulating the positions of a herd of satellites from the GPS antenna. That's correct, but it is far deeper than that. Special relativity plays a part, and once I started looking into relativity (and it was heavy going in the beginning) a whole new world of wonder opened up to me in a way I'd never experienced before.

I'd studied sciences. I made it through high school and college for a tertiary qualification, but then, it was just formulas and rules without any life of their own. I'm seeing science in a completely different way, an exciting way that just makes me want to study more and more, but my pursuit is taking me further and further from my Bible.

I've still got faith, and that is not in doubt. It's what I believe now that is worrying me. Relativity has taken me on a journey into cosmology (the study of the stars, space, and time) and almost all cosmologists don't believe in God at all. I was shocked to read about how they deny our Heavenly Father's authority, but their arguments about how space and matter and energy 'works' is so obvious, so alluring, that I can't get it out of my head! It collides head-on with Genesis, and they can't both be right. Either Science is false, or Genesis is false, or both are false. Every cell of my body screams out that the Bible can't be false, but I can no longer believe it. I can't feel it as truth any longer.

It's driving me insane! What can I do?

Frances
Dec 14th 2007, 06:25 PM
I understand that, many years ago Billy Graham was talking to God, he held up his Bible, and said to God something like "I can't get my head around some of the things written in Your Word, but I have decided to believe it anyway, inspite of what others may say." and then refused to trouble his head about the issues again.

I suggest you do the same as Billy did . . .

DanDMan64
Dec 14th 2007, 07:26 PM
Hey Sammy, the year before you got saved, in the summer of 1990, I got married in Glendale Ca. For reasons I won't go into right now for lack of time and because this is about your problem and not mine, I'll just tell you that both my wife and I became backsliders, and it wasn't till recently that we both rededicated our lives to The Lord after being brought to the brink of ending our marriage of 17 years.

During that falling away period, I came to not just walk away from God, but to "deny" His existence and to settle for living a completely secular lifestyle, after having convinced myself that there was no Heaven or Hell, and that we have to make our own "Paradise" on this earth as best we can.

Well that was all fine and dandy with my wife, though she tells me now she still had faith in God and thought all my talk about God not being real was just "crazy talk". Cut to me about five months ago, as I wondered about life and how to be "happy" I began to dabble into reading Horoscopes, to see if there was something to the belief that the movement of the stars and the planets in the "Cosmos", had a direct effect on our lives as it relates to the dates we were born at. And I was surprised to learn that even though I didn't quite believe in that stuff, it seemed that "The Universe" was speaking to me directly and in a way bringing me a message, which eventually caused me to get right with God and back into fellowship with Him.

Now I'm not saying I endorse horoscopes or astrology or divination or any of that stuff, because I know that the Bible strictly prohibits "dabbling" into any of that. But what I'm saying is that in my case God used that stuff, among other things like nightmares, to call me out of my unbelieving state and to let me know He is not only real, but He loves us and cares for us and will use any means available to Him to reach-out to us.

I believe what I learned then is that He is Lord over the Universe because He created it, He is in control of the planets and the stars, He's mind created the sciences that the so called "Scientists" claim to master, so they are only aware of the things He has allowed them to become aware of, and that's because their brains are way too small to be able to comprehend the myriads of calculations and computations that are "child's play" to the mind of God.

I know that because He was able to arrange the stars and the planets that the people who write horoscopes interpret to tell me, at the precise time that He knew I would be looking at those readings, that I needed to get back into His fold, and that I had played "the fool" long enough. And it takes a Mighty, awesome, and most of all wise and loving God to be able to do that, because I'm convinced what happened to me was no coincidence, and it didn't happen by chance.

I tell you one thing though, I now have only one source that I go to to hear what God has to tell me everyday, and that is the most reliable source we have because it was inspired by His own voice, and that is The Bible, the word of God. And though many don't think it's true, and even want to claim is full of lies and inconsistencies when compared to scientific facts, I have found enough truths in it and practical relevance to my daily life, that I just know they are wrong and it is right, and only when we get to know all things when we get to His presence and He blesses us with new bodies and bigger brains, we'll be able to comprehend how right and accurate the Bible really is, and nobody in this earth can convince me otherwise no matter how many degrees and certificates they wave at me.

I'm sorry for the long post, but it's actually much shorter that I should have made it to tell you how Great and Real and Awesome the God we serve really is, and how reliable and trustworthy His Word really is. :amen:

Semi-tortured
Dec 14th 2007, 08:54 PM
Question, are you reading what the scientists tell you and accepting it as fact because they are scientists? A great deal of evolutionary theory is presented as fact when the reality is, it would be next to impossible (and in some cases I believe completely impossible) to have ever happened the way they tell you it did.

What exactly are your sources and what are they telling you that's so troubling?

Lefty
Dec 14th 2007, 10:01 PM
You mentioned almost all cosmologists were non-believers. What do the rest say? Or have you read their defenses for the faith and found them unconvincing? I would'nt go much farther till I got their side.

It seems to me one reason the these sciences are so populated with sceptics is because they started out with pride and an unconscious, sinful motive to find meaning outside of the Bible they'd already dismissed for personal reasons. In a field so abstract as this one, could it be that it's been skewed with their prejudices so much that those prejudices aren't recognizable anymore?

Sam Fisher
Dec 15th 2007, 10:40 AM
Thank you all for responding.
Most of you think I'm speaking of deep theories. I'm not even going near evolution or big-bang theories. I'm just talking about simple science anyone can do.
Two of my problems: The behavior of light, and the rotation of the earth.
I can't express myself very well, but I'll try to explain.

The earth's rotation: The Bible teaches us about a earth-centred universe. Reading Genesis 1 leaves one in no doubt that the earth is the centre of the universe. Gen 1:14-16 puts the sun and the moon 'up there' to give us day and night. Now I can see that it does not go into the specifics of how the relative movements make it appear that the sun and the moon chase each other around the planet, but the image I get from the writing is clear to me.

Here's the wonder to me: The earth rotates once on its axis in 24 hours. The circumference is around 25000 miles give or take a hundred or so. That means that standing on the equator an observer will be travelling east at over 1000 miles per hour! Everything seems stationary because everything else is also travelling at the same speed - Sand, rocks, cars, buildings, and even the sea.

Here's my problem. We rotate once every day to give the illusion that the sun has gone around us, but that isn't so. How can the sun stand still? We'd have to stop the rotation of the earth. Intertia says that if we did that we'd create a tsunami travelling at over 1000 miles per hour going east, a tsunami that would wipe out anything near the west coasts of continents completely. We're still travelling at 1000 miles per hour. When a car, travelling at 30 miles per hour hits a wall, the occupants continue moving at 30miles per hour until they hit something to stop them. Nobody wears seatbelts while walking around - If the earth stopped rotating, there'd be a worldwide cataclysm that would make Noah's flood look like Noah's paddle-pool.

Joshua 10:13 which quotes something from the "book of Jasher" has to be hearsay, and can have no truth to it.

A less well-known verse is found in 2 kings 20:9-11 -

2 Kings 20:9 *And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
10 *And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
11 *And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

Here, clearly, the sun went BACKWARDS for Isaiah. That implies stopping the arth and accelerating backwards, which would have created an even worse planet-wide disaster.

Clearly to me, these guys were indulging in fantasy and hyperbole to get their points across, and were certainly not describing FACTS.

And that leaves me wondering about so much else - Axe-heads floating in rivers, talking donkeys, sticks turning into snakes - All too much for me to take 'on faith'.

This is already long, so I'll describe my 'light' problem later.

-Sam

Scruffy Kid
Dec 15th 2007, 12:52 PM
Dear Sam,
Welcome to Bibleforums! :hug:
It's great to have you here! :pp :pp :pp

Thanks also for your sincere faith and questions! I realize that you are in an agonizing position, and are struggling with challenging issues as faithfully as you know how. I really appreciate how you are laboring to stay faithful.


About your questions, and my reply

I want to say two sets of things, closely related, in reply, to try to address the concerns that you have.

One thing has to do with the nature of the Bible, and the revelation it gives us, and perhaps with what kind of understanding it is possible for us to have of deep truths. Briefly, I want to argue that one can accept what scientific investigation and reasoning shows us, entirely, without giving up anything essential to Biblical revelation.

The second thing has to with what Christians believe, now and historically. Briefly, I want to argue that there is a very large number of genuine, bible-believing, conservative Christians -- people who hold the historic, biblical Christian faith, who trust and obey the bible fully, who believe that Christ died and rose for our sins, and that He is God (the God who created all things) together with the Father and the Holy Spirit -- who also have no trouble with what scientific enterprise has come up with.

Plainly, the first thing -- what is it possible to believe, logically speaking -- is primary, from a logical point of view, and the second -- what do many Christian people actually believe -- secondary. That is because what is at issue is truth. Is it possible, logically justifyable, to believe God, to believe the biblical revelation, without rejecting scientific findings? (I think it is!) The second thing is saying, so to speak, that many many Christians think so. What people think is a second-order thing; what is logical and true is primary, and what people think is logical and true ultimately depends on it. Obviously, that's a derivative matter: it says that quite a few people have come to the conclusion that one can without logical contradiction hold the historic Christian faith and scientific truth. However, I'm going to start with the second point, about what many Christians believe, because I think it helps one come to the first point.


Many Christians see no contradiction between Biblical Revelation and Science

Examples of Scientists
You say that "most cosmologists" don't believe in a creator. But there are other voices, and generally they are much more informed voices. Not more informed about cosmology, but more informed about the relationship of the findings of science to what one might believe religiously.

One example would be Owen Gingerich. Prof. Gingerich is Professor of Astronomy, Cosmology, and the History of Science, at Harvard University. He's a famous and distinguished scholar. Actually, as it happens, I heard him speak last week, discussing some of the issues you raised. He has books about these topics (I'll get back to you with the titles). Gingerich is a working scientist, an astronomer and cosmologist, and has recognition from scientists as a distinguished professional. That's why he's a prof -- a prof in the sciences -- at Harvard. Yet he's a believing Christian. Furthermore (this is not unimportant!) he's also a recognized scholar in the history and philosophy of science. That's to say, he thinks and writes about what the relationship of scientific findings is to the history of science and to what the implications of those findings are for philosophic and religious conclusions.

Another example would be Francis Collins. Collins is the head of the human genome project, a very distinguished biologist and geneticist. Collins became a scientist long before he was a Christian. Later, after he already had a distinguished scientific career, his thinking turned to religion, and, influenced by the writing of people like the Christian apologist (and Oxford and Cambridge professor of literature) C.S. Lewis, became a strong Chistian believer. Without giving up anything of his scientific work, Collins also has spoken about Christ, giving testimony to Him, and explaining how he (Collins) came to believe, and why he thinks the Christian faith is true. He also has written at least one book about this matter.

Another example would be Sir John Polikinghorn, a physicist and a member of the Royal Society (the highest scientific recognition Britain gives), and also a member of the clergy. Polkinghorn also has a distinguished scientific career and was knighted for his scientific contributions (another way Britain honors people); however for the past 20 years or so his main concern has been the relationship of science and the Christian faith. He has quite a number of books out. Polkinghorn is interested (inter alia) is the way in which indeterminacy -- both in quantum theory and in chaos theory -- expresses fundamental properties of the universe as it is constituted (the Creation) which build in to its mechanism a propensity to undetermined expression which is allows for human free will. Generally, Polikinghorn is a distinguished philosopher of science as well as a distinguished physical scientist. (This kind of career path happens to a number of eminent scientists, such as the physical chemist and philosopher of science Michael Polanyi.)

The examples I have given you are of specific world-class figures, well known and well published on these topics. But they are not isolated examples. I myself know evangelical bible-believing Christians who are working scientists at major research universities, such as Yale, Harvard, major state universities and so on; serious, tenured research scientists, aware of all the matters you raised in your post, who do not see those matters as any serious infringement of biblical authority and reliability, and who continue as faithful believing Christians. Some of these people are close friends.

The Christian Community: Background On Perceived Conflicts of Science and Religion
There are lots of evangelical Christians -- many parts of the Christian community in the US, especially -- who see a kind of rivalry or incompatibility between sceince and religion, or science and Christian faith; and there are not a few atheistic scientists or populizers (many of them dishonest) who play up what they see as an incompatibility. And of course the main bases of information and intellecdtual power in our society -- the media, lots of parts of the universities, and so on -- are hostile to Christianity (without good reasons, and in a very prejudiced and uninformed way, IMO). This leads lots of biblical Christians to be wary of, or hostile toward, the process of scientific investigation, and the people who do it. Typically that hostility or wariness is expressed by some as a conflict between "Science" and faith, or a conspiratorial view about various scientific projects and enterprises. As you know, of course, this is most the case when it comes to evolution.

The Christian Community: students and faculty
But in fact at the vast majority of Christian educational institutions, and among intellectually serious Christian youth who go there, it's taken for granted that Christianity does not conflict with the scientific enterprise. I've known and worked with people from Wheaton, Calvin, Gordon, Messian, Hope, and other such Christian colleges all my professional life. Faculty there are serious Christians, who pray for their students, who are strong members at faithful evangelical churches, who defend the faith and often pay a price professionally for doing so, and who want more than anything else to help form those students as mature Christian men and women who will proclaim the gospel, believe the Christian faith, and walk closely with God and with the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet almost every faculty member -- in Bible and theology departments, in science departments, and in other departments -- has thought through the matter of what the Bible teaches and how that stacks up against scientific findings and theories and sees no incompatibility. The same would be true for the substantial majority -- probably almost all, but I don't know as many people from this group as well so I can't say for sure -- at many conservative theological seminaries: Gordon Conwell, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Wheaton, and many denominational seminaries.

The same is true for serious Christians who go, as students, to major educational institutions, and for the student groups that work with such students (Intervarsity, Campus Crusade, IFES -- the International Fellowship of Evangelical Students, which is the counterpart of Intervarsity overseas, and so on). Again, these are people I've worked with all my professional life; and I've worked with students -- both at Christian institutions and at secular instistutions -- for decades. There are lots of strong, conservative, biblically-faithful students who go to secular institutions, and not a few non-Christian or culturally Christian students who come to a strong, biblical faith which orients their entire lives toward Christ. Yet these are very serious academic students, who are serious and enthusiastic about their studies, undergraduate and graduate students, in the sciences, as well as in philosophy and theology and biblical studies and other fields. But generally these students work through their faith understandings in the time they are at college in a way that helps them see that there is no necessary incompatibility between Christian faith -- biblical, conservative, orthodox, historic Christian faith which affirms that God made all things and that his only son Jesus Christ became human, died for our sins, and rose from the dead -- and the findings of modern science. Again, only this week I was at a conference where I spoke with a good number of these students who are starting Christian campus magazines on their campuses (Harvard, Darmouth, and other less known schools).

About Points of View on this Differing From Mine: A Caveat (spoken not to Sam but to those upset with my answer)
Nothing that is said here is meant to take sides, nor to indicate any disrespect for those who hold to a view of the Bible which thinks that all passages must be interpreted "literally". I'm not arguing against that view. I'm not being unfriendly toward that view and those who hold it, nor do I feel such unfriendliness. I'm not criticizing it. I'm not suggesting that those who hold such views are lesser in any respect than those who do not. I'm not saying that those issues are unimportant.

But I am rather concerned that those people, like Sam, who come to a position where they are unable to deny the accuracy of scientific findings which from a particular ("everything in the Bible must be literal") interpretive standpoint are able to see that there are other interpretive standpoints -- consistent, logical, and held by very many strong, biblically faithful Christians -- from which there are not contradictions that are destructive of Christian belief, although those who hold them may accept standard scientific findings. There are very many Christian people who come to understand and accept the findings, and the deep theoretical logic, of all aspects of modern science, though many with less deep study than Sam has. There are many people who initially adhere to those scientific points of view, and who then come to consider the claims of Christ and the Biblical revelation. My only concern here is to assure such people that there need be no fundamental problem in becoming, or remaining, a Christian while holding standard scientific views.



Many Christians see no contradiction
between Biblical Revelation and Science: Summary

I have argued that many Christians -- including a great number of college students and professors who are Christians, and including a number of distinguished scientists, among whom are evolutionary biologists, astronomers, cosmologists, historians and philosophers of science, theologians and biblical scholars -- see no necessary contradiction between the findings of science (as accepted in the standard way, in universities and scientific publications) and faithful, biblical, robust Christian belief, which accepts miracles, and the resurrection of Christ from the dead, and which understands that God (the One God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) made all things and sustains them in being.

It is entirely possible to believe the Christian truth revealed in the Bible while still adhering to the discoveries of modern science. That is what many, many serious Christian students, profs, scientists, philosophers, biblical scholars, and theologians think. We are not talking here about semi-Christian, explain-it-away, namby-pamby syncretistic, semi-Christians (of which mainline denominational seminaries produce all too many, and whose doctrine I detest), but about people who believe and proclaim the truth.
The Christian truth is that God (the One God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) made all things, and that humankind fell and ruined our nature, alienating ourselves from God in sin, and that we have been saved by this, and this only: that God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to take on human nature, and as a man to live and die and rise from the dead, so that by His death and resurrection we might be freed from sin and reconciled to God. Glory be to God, forever and ever. Amen. This is the truth that saves. It is the fundamental truth of the universe. It is the most interesting and beautiful thing in all the world, or in any possible world. It is the thing that gives us life within, and saves us from our sins. It is the truth that draws us to God and into the very life of God. I praise His holy name!! Glory be to God, and to His Only and Eternal Son Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, forever and ever! Amen!

And, as I have stated, there is no contradiction, no serious tension, between Christian truth and the Biblical revelation and the findings of science. This is not just my idea. I have argued in detail, thus far, that many serious and distinguished scientists, many Christians (including many Christian students and profs, bible scholars, and theologians), having thought through these matters thoroughly, see no contradiction. But I have not yet presented in detail why many do not see a contradiction here. That was my first point, which I have yet to set forth in detailed and logical form. That is, I have yet to present a first-order argument about why it is that there is, as I have shown many to think, there is no contradiction I shall (as soon as I get time) do that next.


Signing off until tomorrow

Unfortunately, I'll have to wait until tomorrow, or possibly the day after, to finish my remarks. My apologies. A combo of work and personal responsibilities don't give me time to go on right now; but I will post more later.

May God be with you, Sam, and guard your heart and mind in all you do! :hug"

In friendship, :)
Scruffy Kid

Sam Fisher
Dec 15th 2007, 03:59 PM
Thank you, Scruffy Kid.
You are obviously very learned and I take courage from your post that there may well be light at the end of the tunnel for me.

It's just that since some parts of the Bible contradict what I can SEE is not so makes me wonder how much else is false, or at least allegorical. And I can feel that thinking and dwelling on these things is sinful and bad and is pulling me away from the Love of our Savior.

I look forward to the rest of your posts because I can see you really know your stuff!

Regards,
Sam

Saved!
Dec 16th 2007, 05:03 AM
Right this minute I wish very much that I had more to offer...

Have you heard of "M" Theory (String) Theory? Here is a link that should enable you to learn more about it.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/)

Hearing about "M" Theory helped me.

I wish that I was intelligent enough about it to go into a lot of detail here. But, sadly, I am not.

It seems to me that I have heard Stephen Hawkings make comments that led me to think that he believes in a "higher power." And, am I right in thinking that Einstein did also?

Tanya~
Dec 16th 2007, 05:34 AM
Hey Sam,

By definition, a miracle overrides the laws of nature and physics.

Each believer's faith will be tested, and it would seem that yours is being tested. What is in your heart will be revealed to you through this process. If you look for reasons to believe, you will find them. If you look for reasons not to believe, you will find them.

I pray that the Lord will guide you in the truth.

Sam Fisher
Dec 16th 2007, 05:25 PM
Right this minute I wish very much that I had more to offer...

Have you heard of "M" Theory (String) Theory? Here is a link that should enable you to learn more about it.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/)

Hearing about "M" Theory helped me.

I wish that I was intelligent enough about it to go into a lot of detail here. But, sadly, I am not.

It seems to me that I have heard Stephen Hawkings make comments that led me to think that he believes in a "higher power." And, am I right in thinking that Einstein did also?

Yeah, I've read briefly about String and 'M' theories and quite frankly, I think they are tying themselves up in knots.

As for Einstein and Hawking... I'm not sure what Hawking believes, but in his "Brief History Of Time", I don't think his "Knowing the Mind of God" was meant spiritually at all.
Also, I know that Einstein was definitely not Christian (or any other specific religion, for that matter.) I reckon he believed in some Higher Power, but not at a personal level like we know our Father. Every time I see fellow Christians quote his "God does not play dice" I cringe, because that argument does us no favors.

Sam Fisher
Dec 16th 2007, 05:38 PM
Dear Sam,
Welcome to Bibleforums! :hug:

Examples of Scientists
You say that "most cosmologists" don't believe in a creator. But there are other voices, and generally they are much more informed voices. Not more informed about cosmology, but more informed about the relationship of the findings of science to what one might believe religiously.

One example would be Owen Gingerich. Prof. Gingerich is Professor of Astronomy, Cosmology, and the History of Science, at Harvard University. He's a famous and distinguished scholar.

Another example would be Francis Collins. Collins is the head of the human genome project, a very distinguished biologist and geneticist.

Another example would be Sir John Polkinghorne, a physicist and a member of the Royal Society (the highest scientific recognition Britain gives), and also a member of the clergy.
May God be with you, Sam, and guard your heart and mind in all you do! :hug"

In friendship, :)
Scruffy Kid

So I went and looked for these scientists on the 'net.
Owen Gingerich and Francis Collins both come with a lot of credentials to their names. They are both Evolutionists! From what I understand about evolution, it is directly contrary to the Word, both in terms of the Bible, and in terms of the Word in John 1:1. If God did not make man specially, if God did not breath into Adam to animate him, If death existed before Adam, then the entire doctrine of 'Original Sin' being the cause of earthly death falls flat. And if Original Sin falls flat, then so does the Atonement. If evolution is true, then Jesus died in vain. I can't accept that as truth.
I have a problem with some of the obvious scientific problems but not with the main doctrine. If the doctrine of Christianity is false, then what is TRUTH?

I'm sorry, man, you've just confused me and made me upset.
:pray::pray::pray:

Tanya~
Dec 16th 2007, 07:01 PM
Hey Sam, I hope that you will consider seeing the movie Expelled when it comes out in February.

Also here's a creationist cosmologist that I know about:

D. Russell Humphreys (http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/people/humphreys-dr.html)
You can read of more Christian scientists. I would also recommend reading the ICR website (http://icr.org/). You can contact them through email and they will dialogue with you personally.

tango
Dec 17th 2007, 12:25 AM
My work requires me to use and maintain many sophisticated electronic instruments. A few months ago, I had a particularly difficult time with a GPS (Global Positioning System) device which seemed to be working, but just wasn't producing the correct results. Eventually I began studying the principles on which this device operates. I thought I knew - You're simply triangulating the positions of a herd of satellites from the GPS antenna. That's correct, but it is far deeper than that. Special relativity plays a part, and once I started looking into relativity (and it was heavy going in the beginning) a whole new world of wonder opened up to me in a way I'd never experienced before.

I've still got faith, and that is not in doubt. It's what I believe now that is worrying me. Relativity has taken me on a journey into cosmology (the study of the stars, space, and time) and almost all cosmologists don't believe in God at all. I was shocked to read about how they deny our Heavenly Father's authority, but their arguments about how space and matter and energy 'works' is so obvious, so alluring, that I can't get it out of my head! It collides head-on with Genesis, and they can't both be right. Either Science is false, or Genesis is false, or both are false. Every cell of my body screams out that the Bible can't be false, but I can no longer believe it. I can't feel it as truth any longer.

It's driving me insane! What can I do?

Only this afternoon I was talking with one of the guys at church about the origins of the Bible. I'm a scientist in terms of what I studied at school but I won't pretend to understand the extreme details of quantum physics. He's a physicist so has a better understanding of these things than I do. He also has a vastly deeper knowledge of the Bible than I do.

If we read the book of Genesis it had to be written in terms that we can understand now, and also that early man would understand. If the book of Genesis described how God took a strand of DNA from one creature, modified it and enhanced it and created another creature from it, the chances are somewhere along the line it would have been discarded because nobody understood what it was talking about.

Likewise if early man had read a description about how the earth revolved around the Sun and the details of relativity, nobody would have understood the writings so they would probably have been discarded. Compared to modern understanding the notion that gravitational attraction = GmM / R^2 is pretty simplistic, but imagine how utterly useless it would have been to someone in the time of Moses who probably assumed the earth was flat, because there was no reason to think anything else.

Incidentally the theory of relativity is exactly that, a theory. It seems to explain a lot but has yet to be promoted to a theorem.

Personally I find myself often wondering in amazement (and sometimes in doubt) at what I see and what I read, but if we are dealing with a God who is outside of space and time as we know them there seems to reason to doubt that God could have done all these things. Just as someone living in a two-dimensional world would struggle to comprehend the powers of a being who could move in a third dimension, so we live in a three-dimensional world (four if you count time, I suppose) and a God who moves in one more dimension can pull things out of the bag that baffle us. Perhaps they work in four dimensions but apparently not in three.

I remember reading years ago a comment about physics which is simplistic on the face of it, but an interesting idea. If we regard the laws of physics as the way God normally leaves things to work then miracles don't become quite so impossible. Normally God keeps things regular for our convenience - think of the chaos if gravity only worked some of the time, for example. But when it is required God can bend the rules for a time.

One final thought - you are studying how space, time, matter and energy work. What (or who) made them work that way?

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 12:25 AM
Hi Sam. I just read through this thread. If God were going to stop the earth, don't you think he would also stop the water, seas, people, etc. and everything else on the earth too? He knows the laws of physics because he made them. So stopping the earth's rotation means he would stop everything on the earth as well. If he didn't do that, then a big catastrophe would have resulted as you already mentioned.

Saved!
Dec 17th 2007, 02:18 AM
One thing I constantly have to remind myself of is that time is a "dimension" that only effects us (including our surroundings and space...the cosmos). God is not subject to time. That is why we have such difficulty understanding a being without a beginning or an end.

Thus, to our Lord 1,000 years is the same as 1 day.

FallingWaters
Dec 17th 2007, 02:32 AM
I don't know what to do. I've been praying about it for hours and days and weeks. I've fasted, even for three days straight. My mind is in turmoil. All my life I've been a Christian, I've been saved since 1991, baptised in 1992, and have been living for Jesus every minute of every day.

Until now.

My work requires me to use and maintain many sophisticated electronic instruments. A few months ago, I had a particularly difficult time with a GPS (Global Positioning System) device which seemed to be working, but just wasn't producing the correct results. Eventually I began studying the principles on which this device operates. I thought I knew - You're simply triangulating the positions of a herd of satellites from the GPS antenna. That's correct, but it is far deeper than that. Special relativity plays a part, and once I started looking into relativity (and it was heavy going in the beginning) a whole new world of wonder opened up to me in a way I'd never experienced before.

I'd studied sciences. I made it through high school and college for a tertiary qualification, but then, it was just formulas and rules without any life of their own. I'm seeing science in a completely different way, an exciting way that just makes me want to study more and more, but my pursuit is taking me further and further from my Bible.

I've still got faith, and that is not in doubt. It's what I believe now that is worrying me. Relativity has taken me on a journey into cosmology (the study of the stars, space, and time) and almost all cosmologists don't believe in God at all. I was shocked to read about how they deny our Heavenly Father's authority, but their arguments about how space and matter and energy 'works' is so obvious, so alluring, that I can't get it out of my head! It collides head-on with Genesis, and they can't both be right. Either Science is false, or Genesis is false, or both are false. Every cell of my body screams out that the Bible can't be false, but I can no longer believe it. I can't feel it as truth any longer.

It's driving me insane! What can I do?When bank tellers are being trained, they are taught to recognize counterfeit money. Do you know how they do that? They don't do it by studying the counterfeit; they do it by studying the real thing.

I know how you feel because I've been there. Stop studying the counterfeit. Start studying the real thing. God is real. He did create the universe. He does love you.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

http://www.icr.org/

A search for the word cosmology at these two sites brought up many articles. Surely, some would be helpful to you. There were too many to list, and I didn't know which ones would be of the most interest.

I recommend this author:
http://www.icr.org/article/446/

I am getting his DVD for Christmas!

FallingWaters
Dec 17th 2007, 02:36 AM
Hi Sam. I just read through this thread. If God were going to stop the earth, don't you think he would also stop the water, seas, people, etc. and everything else on the earth too? He knows the laws of physics because he made them. So stopping the earth's rotation means he would stop everything on the earth as well. If he didn't do that, then a big catastrophe would have resulted as you already mentioned.Of course! Great answer!

Sam Fisher
Dec 18th 2007, 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by Brother Mark
Hi Sam. I just read through this thread. If God were going to stop the earth, don't you think he would also stop the water, seas, people, etc. and everything else on the earth too? He knows the laws of physics because he made them. So stopping the earth's rotation means he would stop everything on the earth as well. If he didn't do that, then a big catastrophe would have resulted as you already mentioned.

Of course! Great answer!

I don't know. I'm unconvinced by this answer. Which is most likely... A planet held in its' rotation for a few hours, even rotated backwards by several degrees, and everything that can move kept in its place, while still allowing the natural movement of everything unimpeded? Or a little literary hyperbole to make a great story even better? One requiring phenomenal cosmic power to grant the wishes of one or two men, or a scribe using a litle extra ink?

I'm beginning to suspect the latter. Since I've become super-sensitive to these kinds of events described in the Bible, I'm becoming less trusting of the writing and translation. I've found several already, and the most glaring example after Creation is the Noah's Flood story. We've all been over this so many times before, but I was always in the 'This is the TRUTH' camp. Now? I'm not so sure.

-Sam

Duane Morse
Dec 18th 2007, 10:54 AM
One thing I constantly have to remind myself of is that time is a "dimension" that only effects us (including our surroundings and space...the cosmos). God is not subject to time. That is why we have such difficulty understanding a being without a beginning or an end.

Thus, to our Lord 1,000 years is the same as 1 day.
The thing with 'time', though, is it is not a true constant.

If you are familiar with the 'theory of relativity', then you are familiar with the concept that time slows down in a gravity well - or with velocity.
As you approach the speed of light, time slows down. So if you left Earth with a velocity of 9/10 lightspeed, traveled for a subjective year and returned, the time that had passed on Earth would be several years.

So 'time' is not strictly a 'dimension'. It is probably better termed a 'force' that interacts with the other forces - and most notably as the 'counter' or 'complimentary' force to gravity.
Gravity is the force that binds together, that constricts and contracts.
Time is the force that separates, that forces apart and expands.
Time is to Gravity, as Adam is to Eve - or as the Father is to the Holy Spirit - or as Jesus is to Man.

If you were to travel at the speed of light, your subjective lifetime would encompass all of eternity (or at least that portion of eternity from your birth until the end of all things).
But, the only thing that can travel at the speed of light is, light.
So, light is timeless.
God is light, so - God is timeless.

Except where Jesus is concerned.
Jesus is that portion of God that is time-held.
With the conception of Jesus, time began.
Because, with the conception of Jesus - Light was formed, and so the baseline was set.

To Sam:
"One requiring phenomenal cosmic power to grant the wishes of one or two men, or a scribe using a litle extra ink?"

In the creation of the universe from nothingness, a little extra than phenomenal cosmic power is needed.

In the adjustment of the Earth's rotation or axial inclination (which both would produce the effect spoken of) - perhaps just a little phenomenal cosmic power is needed.


You should not doubt that God can, or will, do things because of the wishes of one or two men - if it be His will and for His Glory.


You should more, doubt your own doubts.
Can you say where your own intelligence comes from, to question these things? Is it purely biological?
If not, then you must presume that your intelligence comes from some other place than yourself - and that it is Spiritual in nature.

And if Spiritual, then of Whose Spirit?

9Marksfan
Dec 18th 2007, 11:36 AM
I don't know. I'm unconvinced by this answer. Which is most likely... A planet held in its' rotation for a few hours, even rotated backwards by several degrees, and everything that can move kept in its place, while still allowing the natural movement of everything unimpeded? Or a little literary hyperbole to make a great story even better? One requiring phenomenal cosmic power to grant the wishes of one or two men,

But isn't God capable of that? And isn't His people's benefit and blessing the chief focus of His mighty works? You need to develop a greater vision of God's infinite power and glory, my friend!


or a scribe using a litle extra ink?

Now who do you think is putting that thought in your mind? Or will you start questioning his existence now too?!?


I'm beginning to suspect the latter.

Why do you think that is?


Since I've become super-sensitive to these kinds of events described in the Bible, I'm becoming less trusting of the writing and translation. I've found several already, and the most glaring example after Creation is the Noah's Flood story. We've all been over this so many times before, but I was always in the 'This is the TRUTH' camp. Now? I'm not so sure.

Why do you think that is? Have you checked out the answersingenesis website? There's a lot of great stuff about the flood there!

You need to spend more time looking at what those who believe the word are saying than those who don't - there's clearly a spiritual battle going on - and two diametrically opposed worldviews in each camp!

Sam Fisher
Dec 18th 2007, 02:44 PM
Do I doubt God's awesome power? Not for a moment.:o

What I'm doubting is whether some of the more extravagant claims from the Old Testament are a little beyond the reasonable person's knowledge of reality.:dunno:

What I'm doubting is whether the early scribes (who were recounting not their own experiences, but fireside tales over many generations) were recounting truth, or mere tales of the time, like Homer or other early historians or novelists. Homer's Iliad contains many references to places and events that we know really did happen, but no-one holds the Iliad as scripture - We all know it is a novel, and so did Homer's peers.

Simplistic answers do not satisfy my curiosity any longer, and 'Just Have Faith' is not enough for me. :( I cannot believe that God, who in his wisdom gave me a curious intellect and the means to exercise it, would disapprove of me searching for answers to these questions. As I study longer and harder (and I've been through a lot of Answers in Genesis and ICR lately) I'm finding so many of these arguments hollow and contradictory with what I can see with my own eyes, and understand with my own God-given intellect.
This is a journey I've got myself on to, and I cannot get away from it until I've reached my final destination, whereever that may be, and however long it will take.

I'm gaining confidence when I read all the responses and see the confusion between what different people believe, each saying they are Christian. It's not just me!

FallingWaters
Dec 18th 2007, 03:21 PM
When bank tellers are being trained, they are taught to recognize counterfeit money. Do you know how they do that? They don't do it by studying the counterfeit; they do it by studying the real thing.

I know how you feel because I've been there. Stop studying the counterfeit. Start studying the real thing. God is real. He did create the universe. He does love you.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

http://www.icr.org/

A search for the word cosmology at these two sites brought up many articles. Surely, some would be helpful to you. There were too many to list, and I didn't know which ones would be of the most interest.

I recommend this author:
http://www.icr.org/article/446/

I am getting his DVD for Christmas!Did you notice my post?
I hope that you will take advantage of the free online articles that are at those links I provided.
Have you checked out the links yet, and searched for the articles that address cosmology?

Sam Fisher
Dec 18th 2007, 03:41 PM
Hi, FW,

Yup, I've had hardly any sleep these last few days reading AIG and ICR. As I said in my last post, some of the articles leave me cold as I think their arguments are sometimes hollow and without substance. Quoting scripture to prove scripture is circular reasoning - one of the things I've learned recently.

-Sam

Tanya~
Dec 18th 2007, 04:54 PM
Sam, you can write to them. I personally have corresponded with the folks at ICR in the past. They would be happy to discuss your concerns.

DanDMan64
Dec 18th 2007, 05:33 PM
Hi Sammy, Dan here again, I noticed you've taken time to answer a lot of posters here, but like FallingWaters asked I need to ask you the same question, did you read my post?

Basically what you're saying is you have problems believing the miracles described in the Bible because your job, or physics, or science or whatever, is telling you that they are impossible, so you seem to believe that the writers just either made-it-up, or exaggerated what really happened to make it seem a lot bigger than it really was.

I don't know if you understood what I was saying, but I told you about a seemingly impossible thing that happened to me in my own life and just a few months ago this year, so it seems you're not willing to take my report seriously because I'm just an ordinary person who probably doesn't move in the same circles you do, and couldn't possibly understand scientific concepts at the level you do, and on that you probably are correct.

One thing I do know is that God is God, and He doesn't need to explain Himself to you or to me or to any body, He does as He pleases, He makes the rules and He's free to bend those rules when He pleases and how He pleases, and you and I need to count ourselves fortunate that He has granted us enough wisdom to understand that we need Him more than He needs us, and that he loves us enough to want to have a personal relationship with us mere mortals, and all He asks is that we turn to Him, IN FAITH, and accept Him without question.

You keep saying you have faith, but it's quite obvious to me you have faith in a very small God that couldn't possibly be able to do the things He's told us he did in the Old Testament. I have faith in an Awesome, Mighty, Powerful, did I say Mighty, I meant ALL MIGHTY GOD, that is able to stop the World and turn it back without creating massive title waves, one who could create the universe in six literal 24 hour days, and one that could get so fed-up with our trying to reason-Him-out before we're willing to accept Him as He is, that He could just say the word and start all over again from scratch in a split second, and you and I and all the laws of nature would be no more. And He could create a new world, with beings that have no legs and fly with wings, and yet would be created in His image and according to His likeness just as we were, and be given the same chance we have to worship and love Him out of their own free will.

You think you're so smart Sammy, that's the problem, it takes more than brains to know God, all it takes is faith, just be willing to accept Him as He is and above all things "Love your God with all your heart, and all your soul and all your strength." and quit trying to measure Him-out by measuring His creation. One day when we reach perfection we will know Him even as we are known, what you're saying is "I don't want to wait till then, I want to know now" well all I can say is, be careful what you ask for cause you just might get it.

Just love Your Lord and accept Him without question, let Him reveal Himself to you in a manner that is practical and meaningful for your daily walk with Him, leave the big questions for eternity, you'll see you'll sleep a lot better. ;)

Athanasius
Dec 18th 2007, 06:12 PM
I've still got faith, and that is not in doubt. It's what I believe now that is worrying me. Relativity has taken me on a journey into cosmology (the study of the stars, space, and time) and almost all cosmologists don't believe in God at all. I was shocked to read about how they deny our Heavenly Father's authority, but their arguments about how space and matter and energy 'works' is so obvious, so alluring, that I can't get it out of my head! It collides head-on with Genesis, and they can't both be right. Either Science is false, or Genesis is false, or both are false. Every cell of my body screams out that the Bible can't be false, but I can no longer believe it. I can't feel it as truth any longer.
It's driving me insane! What can I do?

Both science and Christianity don't have to be false.
Science is only possible, after all, because of the constants of Christianity.
There may be issues with both, but they don't have to be both wrong.

Since you're studying cosmology, what are your thoughts on causation?
Because modern scientists can't explain the origin(s) of the universe, they have a consensus that the universe is infinite, that is to say it was always existing. If God doesn't have to have a beginning, why should the theories of natural science? Outside of that, they would be forced to explain the first cause; that which started every other cause, and at present they can't.

Stephen Hawking proposed a few, highly speculative suggestions, but nothing more, "it's like asking what's north of the north pole". In effect, settling on the idea that the Big Bang was the first cause. However, lacking an explanation for what caused the conditions of the Big Bang--natural or not.

That which started (or caused) the natural, has to be supernatural.
That is to say, it has to be outside of its creation and still uncreated itself.

If we look at the old example, we have a straight line:
<------------------------------------------------->

It extends for an infinity amount of time in each direction, we should realize a few things; minus infinity and plus infinity. Both do not actually exist, as there is no "minus infinity" point in the line, nor is there a "plus infinity" point in the line. They only show that no matter how far forward or back you go, there is always a later or earlier point.

It is actually possible, however, to turn that infinite line into a finite line which begins with "minute infinity" and ends with "plus infinity". And thus would start the argument for a first causation, uncaused and outside of the natural universe (but still able to interact with it).

But anyway, I should stop myself before going on a tangent ;)
If you have an issue with miracles, as DanDMan64 is saying, particularly with them having to suspend the laws of nature, then there are theories on baryon particle annihilation (meson, lepton etc.), neutrino-anti neutrino conversion etc. Which can account for Biblical miracles without the suspension of the natural order (pertaining to a lot of Jesus' miracles).

At the end of the day, however, with everything explained, you still have one thing left to do.

Choose to believe or not the answers and explanations you have been given. And then choose to believe or not in God, or in ourselves.



One thing I do know is that God is God, and He doesn't need to explain Himself to you or to me or to any body, He does as He pleases, He makes the rules and He's free to bend those rules when He pleases and how He pleases, and you and I need to count ourselves fortunate that He has granted us enough wisdom to understand that we need Him more than He needs us, and that he loves us enough to want to have a personal relationship with us mere mortals, and all He asks is that we turn to Him, IN FAITH, and accept Him without question.


In reference to the created order (physical laws, God's word, etc) God cannot bend, break or alter His rules.
Miracles aren't beyond the laws of our universe, the our beyond our understanding of the laws of the universe (multiverse?).

DanDMan64
Dec 18th 2007, 06:59 PM
...In reference to the created order (physical laws, God's word, etc) God cannot bend, break or alter His rules.
Miracles aren't beyond the laws of our universe, the our beyond our understanding of the laws of the universe (multiverse?)...Hello Xe'Naga, let me clarify a bit what I believe about that, and though I believe there are scriptures to back this-up, what you're saying is only partly correct, God can indeed bend, break and/or alter His rules, but He restrains Himself for our sakes and chooses not to do so.

In other words, we can not put God in a box and say "This is God", rather He made His own Box and put Himself in it along with all the rules, the thing is we don't know all the rules, we'd like to think that we do, but we don't, we only know the rules that pertain to our reality, but only He knows all the rules. So when you look at it from that sense you'll see what I said is correct.

You're saying, all the miracles are possible because the physical laws that we know can be combined in different ways to allow for them to happen. I think all the miracles are possible because there are physical laws we don't even know about that can counteract the ones that we know, that's why it requires faith to believe in miracles.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus was able to walk on water, and why was Peter able to do the same for a little bit? :hmm:

While I leave you to chew on that I need to go use my limitted understanding to fix a broken printer. :lol:

Athanasius
Dec 19th 2007, 12:04 AM
Hello Xe'Naga, let me clarify a bit what I believe about that, and though I believe there are scriptures to back this-up, what you're saying is only partly correct, God can indeed bend, break and/or alter His rules, but He restrains Himself for our sakes and chooses not to do so.

In other words, we can not put God in a box and say "This is God", rather He made His own Box and put Himself in it along with all the rules, the thing is we don't know all the rules, we'd like to think that we do, but we don't, we only know the rules that pertain to our reality, but only He knows all the rules. So when you look at it from that sense you'll see what I said is correct.

You're saying, all the miracles are possible because the physical laws that we know can be combined in different ways to allow for them to happen. I think all the miracles are possible because there are physical laws we don't even know about that can counteract the ones that we know, that's why it requires faith to believe in miracles.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus was able to walk on water, and why was Peter able to do the same for a little bit? :hmm:

While I leave you to chew on that I need to go use my limitted understanding to fix a broken printer. :lol:

Well, let me expand more on what I was saying.
To get at what I'm thinking, let's start with what we all know. We all know that God can't lie:

Hebrews 6:18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

Titus 1:2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill

It would be against God's character for him to lie (God is righteous).
In this case of lying, I believe God cannot lie. If he could, who's to say he's really God? It would create a lot of issues.

We also know that God does not change:

Mal 3:6 “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

My first question is then, why would God create a universe so limited he would have to break his own rules to perform miracles?

In answering, what I was more getting at is that we really don't know how much of the universe works. The laws of physics, or nature, aren't broken; it is only our understanding of those laws that seems infringed upon. Ergo, there are things we don't know about that make miracles completely within possibility (as you were saying) and would not require the cessation of natural laws.

So then the only thing I'm left wondering goes along with God being, what I believe to be, incapable of lying. Once God has willingly put himself inside that 'box' as you put it, is God actually capable (according with his character) to ignore the 'rules' he's set forward--just as he isn't able to lie. (I hope that made sense).

DanDMan64
Dec 19th 2007, 01:14 AM
...So then the only thing I'm left wondering goes along with God being, what I believe to be, incapable of lying. Once God has willingly put himself inside that 'box' as you put it, is God actually capable (according with his character) to ignore the 'rules' he's set forward--just as he isn't able to lie. (I hope that made sense).Actually, it makes perfect sense, at least to me it does, and I hope it does to Sammy as well. After I re-red your last post I realized we were both thinking the same thing, we just said it in different ways.

So to this point I would say, that when it comes to knowledge and understanding, God is the adult and we are the children. Haven't you as a child ever wondered about something and when you became an adult and understood it, it made perfect sense?

Don't we as adults sometimes withhold information from kids because for one thing, they don't need to know that, and if you told them you knew they wouldn't understand anyway? so when they ask about it you just say, "get back to your toys, I'll tell you know when you're older." Or when told to do something for their own good, and they ask "but why?", you say "because I said so, that's why."

I hope that makes sense too. :)

Athanasius
Dec 19th 2007, 03:09 AM
Actually, it makes perfect sense, at least to me it does, and I hope it does to Sammy as well. After I re-red your last post I realized we were both thinking the same thing, we just said it in different ways.

So to this point I would say, that when it comes to knowledge and understanding, God is the adult and we are the children. Haven't you as a child ever wondered about something and when you became an adult and understood it, it made perfect sense?

Don't we as adults sometimes withhold information from kids because for one thing, they don't need to know that, and if you told them you knew they wouldn't understand anyway? so when they ask about it you just say, "get back to your toys, I'll tell you know when you're older." Or when told to do something for their own good, and they ask "but why?", you say "because I said so, that's why."

I hope that makes sense too. :)

Makes absolute perfect sense ;)

Sam Fisher
Dec 19th 2007, 07:39 AM
Both of you seem satisfied with what you already know, and are satisfied that you don't NEED to know more.

I've had a glimpse of something bigger, something so wondrous, something so magestic, that I HAVE to know more. For me to stop now is like never seeing the end of a suspense thriller, I'm on a cliffhanger and I can sense there is so much more to find.

An acquaintance of mine has leant me his copy of Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" and it was only yesterday that I plucked up the courage to actually read it. I find some of his arguments compelling, even though I am only two chapters in so far. When I've digested some of this, I'll report back.

-S

Athanasius
Dec 19th 2007, 08:06 AM
Both of you seem satisfied with what you already know, and are satisfied that you don't NEED to know more.

I've had a glimpse of something bigger, something so wondrous, something so magestic, that I HAVE to know more. For me to stop now is like never seeing the end of a suspense thriller, I'm on a cliffhanger and I can sense there is so much more to find.

An acquaintance of mine has leant me his copy of Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" and it was only yesterday that I plucked up the courage to actually read it. I find some of his arguments compelling, even though I am only two chapters in so far. When I've digested some of this, I'll report back.

-S

God has given me an analytical (abstracted) mind. I can't do math to save my life, but I'm very much into science, biology, cosmology, religious study, theology and philosophy--I have enough answers for now, but the more I learn about all of 'this' (which isn't all necessarily correct) the more about scripture I'm going to need to know. I may have a new question tomorrow, or the day after, that's going to cause me to search scripture. Or someone may bring up a new 'difficulty' or 'contradiction' and it's going to drive me back to the Bible.

I know where you're coming from.

I particularly enjoyed the way he [Richard Dawkins] opened the second chapter, however, that's not the God that's portrayed in the Old Testament--don't be deceived by the caricature he sets up and defeats, creating a straw man Christianity!

When you finish the book (it's only 400ish pages) it would be something good to discuss. I would on that same note warn you, he intends to make atheists out of believers by the end of his book; be very careful!

Most recently Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have been receiving a lot of publicity and public support because of their books. They do present arguments which for the most part aren't valid, but seem very convincing. They also present very legitimate questions (why does God command the murder of women and children?) and a lot of believers get caught up on them.

I've had the whisper many times in my head, especially recently, 'there is no God!' But it's not my thought, and I know I can't give into it. Cosmology is a fascinating field, and I can understand why you're going through such a strong period of question. I'm a student at a Bible college, I can say I've become very disillusioned not only with who's in Bible college and graduating, but with the Christianity that is being taught and expiated (I know, I can myself say some very stupid things-where did he get that idea?!).

I'll be keeping you in my prayers, if you don't mind :)
You see when I look at the universe and all it's majesty, I think also what kind of God could have created such a wondrous thing!

DanDMan64
Dec 19th 2007, 05:40 PM
Hey Sammy, listen man, there are a lot things out there that I don't know and I don't care to know about, not because I'm afraid that they will ultimately prove to me that there is no God, because I KNOW GOD, and not just because I have faith that he is real, but in His infinite mercy He has revealed Himself to me so that we now have a relationship, I know my place as a servant and a disciple, and by His grace as a dear son and brother to Jesus Christ. In a very real sense I could say with some certainty that I am one of "the elect". Yet as long as we're on this earth the fact still remains that "the just shall live by faith".

In the book of Mark we read: "Mark 13:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." Notice the line that says "..if it were possible." It shows that Christ knew that even the faith of the strongest believers could be shaken by these false Christs and false prophets.

I'll let you in on a little secret, if we were having this chat on a different board just four months ago, I would be telling you that I thought you were and idiot for believing in God, and I'd be probably trying to convince you that the whole deal about religions and creation was all a myth created and orchestrated by Alien Beings from another planet. :o

My point is this, as strong as I'm in The Lord now, I used to be up to about 17 years ago when I decided to walk away from God and started to embrace that doctrine, "The great Alien conspiracy" and so strong was that "belief system" that I wasn't even reading the Bible anymore, to me it was just a book of lies and superstitions that I used to read before I was "enlightened".

Thank God that as one of the elect, God in due time reached through that veil of darkness that engulfed me and used a different method to reach me, as I mentioned before it was through horoscopes that I began to listen for the voice of "The Universe" to speak to me, and when it was all said and done I came to realize it was the same God that I knew and loved before that was calling me back into fellowship with Him. PTL!:pp

Just four months ago I thought I was so smart, so enlightened, I had it all figured-out, and now I realize I was such a fool, and so very close to loosing my salvation and all for what, for not being satisfied with the knowledge that I had been given and for wanting to know more. I Praise God that He had mercy on me and called me back from darkness into His marvelous light.

All I'm saying is this, be very careful in your search for answers, specially when they make very convincing arguments and use science to back-up their claims. Like I said before science is limited by God so that we only know as much as He allows us to know. I would suggest you get strong in your faith first, get close to God in worship and study of His word, get close to Jesus as your Lord and Teacher and study His teachings, get close to the Holy Spirit and let Him show you WHY miracles are possible and don't get so hung-up in trying to figure-out HOW they are accomplished.

Once you know the real twenty dollar bill, then feel free to look at the counterfeits and see how phony they really are, because if you think your faith is the "funny money" and the real bill is somewhere else yet to be found, you'll just be wasting a lot of time looking for it.;)

I love you Sammy, and my prayer for you is that you don't get suckered, remember Jesus said: "Mark 8:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?". :cry:.

Sam Fisher
Dec 19th 2007, 07:19 PM
Thanks, Dan

Your post means a lot to me.
I know my faith in Jesus isn't being tested, it's just in the inerrancy of the bible (Another term I just learned recently) that I have problems.

You mentioned this 'Alien Conspiracy'. That's not something I would believe, but is there somewhere on the 'net I can look? I've never heard of this and I like knowing more of what Satan is passing around as 'truth' that also requires 'faith' to believe. The science thing is not really about faith per se, since all their experiments and stuff is repeatable and requires no faith. Well, no more faith than is required to believe the switch on my wall turns on the light.

-Sam

DanDMan64
Dec 19th 2007, 10:01 PM
...it's just in the inerrancy of the bible (Another term I just learned recently) that I have problems...

...You mentioned this 'Alien Conspiracy'. That's not something I would believe, but is there somewhere on the 'net I can look? I've never heard of this and I like knowing more of what Satan is passing around as 'truth' that also requires 'faith' to believe...

...The science thing is not really about faith per se, since all their experiments and stuff is repeatable and requires no faith. Well, no more faith than is required to believe the switch on my wall turns on the light.

-SamI'm glad you understand that I tell you this things out of love because I'd hate to see you get "lost" and led astray.

Fist-off, "The inerrancy of The Bible", as I understand it, is the belief that the Bible is divinely inspired and therefore we can trust it fully. However there are those that question that claim and say that is not true because of the "miracles" factor, which is the part I believe you're struggling with. They also say is not true because it contradicts itself, claiming that God is good and is loving and yet He seemed to have no problem doing away with millions of people with an apparent sense of cruelty. I'd rather not get into that right now other than to say, those who say that don't want to deal with the idea that God is "Just", and as to the miracles part I guess you already know how I feel about that.

Second, about "the Alien conspiracy" there are tons of sites you could find just by googling-up that phrase, and there's really no one particular person or group that I personally subscribed to, and there are tons of "theories" about the role of "extra terrestrials" in shaping-up our history and culture to prepare humanity for it's eventual assimilation into a universal consciousness, some claim we should embrace it because it's for our own good, and some that it's part of a plan to invade our planet and "kick-us-out" so we need to be informed and ready to defend ourselves.

Again I stress that these are the kinds of ideas and teachings that The Bible warn us to be on the look-out for as signs of the last days, that could lead us astray and away from The Lord if our faith was not strong enough to recognize them as "doctrines of demons".

Lastly, about "the science thing" and the light bulb. I'm reminded of a comic strip I red on a paper once: "Olaf the Viking comes home after conquering some European country, he happily pulls-out a faucet out of his bag and shows-it off to his wife as though it was a magical wonder, he turns the handle and then says, "but I swear water came-out over there". :rofl: You see, Olaf only understood about the laws of cause and effect, but didn't understand the science behind the cause of activating the faucet and the effect of the water flowing out, and I bet he killed all the people who could explain it to him in the process of taking their technology.

In the same way many scientists try to find answers by leaving "the God factor" out of the equation, they conduct their experiments based on cause, effect, known parameters, units of measurement, physical laws, and so on, and that's fine for when you have all the pieces of the puzzle, but without all the pieces and the ability to look at the puzzle from above, how do you even know if you're looking at a whole puzzle or a piece of a bigger puzzle. :hmm: Many people end-up in insane asylums trying to figure that out, and that's because they don't want to acknowledge the importance of knowing the puzzle maker.

Sammy, don't leave God out of the equation, if you think you're on to something pursue it with His blessing and His guidance, as in all things in life is important to remember Him and honor Him first and always, as the proverb says. "3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." :amen:

FaithfulSheep
Dec 19th 2007, 10:17 PM
I've got to be honest with you about one thing first.... I know almost nothing about science... something I never took an interest in.

However, I am familiar with a site that is very good called answersingenesis (http://www.answersingenesis.org). There is a good article there on cosmology. Here (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n4/stars-of-heaven-confirm)is the link to it. Read it and report your thoughts back to us. When you have time, peruse the rest of that site as well. It does a great job of answering scientific questions. The "get answers" section has several scientific questions they answer.

In reading these, remember two things:
1. With God all things are possible.
2. Satan will try to pull us away from God by whatever means he can.

Sam Fisher
Dec 20th 2007, 08:53 AM
However, I am familiar with a site that is very good called answersingenesis (http://www.answersingenesis.org). There is a good article there on cosmology. Here (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n4/stars-of-heaven-confirm)is the link to it. Read it and report your thoughts back to us.

Hi, JD

Right off the bat, I don't believe that the universe is 6000 years old, I'm certain that it is older than that. Much older.
It is true that we have not yet seen an actual star birth. Then again, we've only really been observing the stars properly for the last few decades, and we cannot watch every part of the sky all the time. We HAVE observed stars dying - Supernovas and Gamma Bursts are very energetic and observable with the naked eye or simple instruments.

-Sam

Duane Morse
Dec 20th 2007, 09:22 AM
Hi, JD

Right off the bat, I don't believe that the universe is 6000 years old, I'm certain that it is older than that. Much older.
It is true that we have not yet seen an actual star birth. Then again, we've only really been observing the stars properly for the last few decades, and we cannot watch every part of the sky all the time. We HAVE observed stars dying - Supernovas and Gamma Bursts are very energetic and observable with the naked eye or simple instruments.

-Sam
Yes, well, time is relative.
It is a tradeoff, a function of, an illusion - of opposing forces and constants.

Do you understand that 'time' is affected by 'gravity'?
As in, if you were to enter a 'black hole', time - relative to your perspective - would be different from time, relative to an outside observer?


So then, (the absolute value of) time within the gravity well of the earth (or any gravity well) is different from (the absolute value of) time in open space.

Time progresses faster outside of a gravity well.
(And slows in an inverse proportion to the strength of the gravity well)

So 16 billion years in universal time could well be 6,000 years in earthly time.
And visa-versa.


Don't be so certain of the facts - until you have ALL the facts.

Sam Fisher
Dec 20th 2007, 03:17 PM
I'm not entirely sure I understand your assertion.

Yes, time and gravity are entwined with one another, but with your hypothesis, what part of the universe is under what part of gravity and/or time dilation? Maybe I'm being a little backward here, but I re-read your post several times, studied up (superficially) on time and gravity, and I still don't follow your reasoning.

Would you clarify?

-Sam

Sam Fisher
Dec 22nd 2007, 06:49 PM
Where is everybody?

Wow. Just Wow. :eek:
I read through the God delusion. I had the book for weks before I could bring myself to read it because I'd heard so many others talk about it.
Many times I wanted to give up in disgust. I thought he had no idea what he was talking about. Since he didn't believe in God, how could he write anything about Him?

I have had my faith rattled right down to the foundations. I don't know what to think now, but I'm angry. Angry at Dawkins for criticising my God whom I love. Angry at Christianity for being so closed-minded and divided. Angry at myself for reading this book. Angry at myself for taking so long before reading this book. And most of all, angry because I'm angry.

:B

tango
Dec 22nd 2007, 09:59 PM
Hi Sam

I skimmed through the God Delusion and found the arguments I read so flimsy that I didn't even bother reading it in detail. In fact after reading it I did some serious thinking and concluded that God almost certainly did exist.

Dawkins is undoubtedly a very clever man but his arguments were very weak. He liked to claim that God must be evil because of the evil things done in his name. Since he hates the church if I went out and shot a priest in Dawkins' name would that make him evil, or me evil?

He also implies a negative correlation when in fact he can only assume a zero correlation. Using the example of a drunkard we cannot draw any conclusions from what he claims to see. The classic example of the drunkard is someone who sees pink elephants, but the drunkard will also see a lamp post that will support him. Therefore the fact the drunkard claims to see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist (an implied correlation of -1) but we cannot draw any useful conclusions from his observation (an actual correlation of 0).

Dawkins also likes his line that when one person is deluded it's called psychosis, when many are deluded it's called religion. I'd day Dawkins is himself deluded, as are the many millions who profess the faith of atheism. Much as the atheist scientific community hate theories of God because they cannot be falsified, they are far less introspective about their own theory of no-God which equally cannot be falsified.

If I might borrow some words from Dr Peter Mullen, who is the chaplain to the London Stock Exchange, what we might like to believe has no bearing on reality. All the people who say that "To me, God is...." might as well be saying "To me Philadelphia is somewhere near Seattle" or "to me the best way to put out a fire is to pour petrol on it". They can believe it all they want, but their belief, however firmly held, won't help them find Philadelphia in Washington state.

In the dark hours reach out to God and let his light guide you. I thought I was being really clever when I walked away from the church and all the people with their silly ideas, and it took me 15 years to realise what a big mistake it was.


Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.


This doesn't mean accept something blindly just because someone tells you to, but to let God's spirit reveal something of himself to you.

FallingWaters
Dec 23rd 2007, 07:15 PM
Where is everybody?

Wow. Just Wow. :eek:
I read through the God delusion. I had the book for weks before I could bring myself to read it because I'd heard so many others talk about it.
Many times I wanted to give up in disgust. I thought he had no idea what he was talking about. Since he didn't believe in God, how could he write anything about Him?

I have had my faith rattled right down to the foundations. I don't know what to think now, but I'm angry. Angry at Dawkins for criticising my God whom I love. Angry at Christianity for being so closed-minded and divided. Angry at myself for reading this book. Angry at myself for taking so long before reading this book. And most of all, angry because I'm angry.

:BI wish you had taken my advice about not studying the counterfeit. :hug:
I hope and pray that you will study God's word and that He will bring the Truth to light in your heart.

Athanasius
Dec 23rd 2007, 07:45 PM
Where is everybody?

Wow. Just Wow. :eek:
I read through the God delusion. I had the book for weks before I could bring myself to read it because I'd heard so many others talk about it.
Many times I wanted to give up in disgust. I thought he had no idea what he was talking about. Since he didn't believe in God, how could he write anything about Him?

I have had my faith rattled right down to the foundations. I don't know what to think now, but I'm angry. Angry at Dawkins for criticising my God whom I love. Angry at Christianity for being so closed-minded and divided. Angry at myself for reading this book. Angry at myself for taking so long before reading this book. And most of all, angry because I'm angry.

:B

Sadly, we warned you.
I read those books with a strong faith and at the end still may end up wondering if there's any merit to what they say; there isn't!
There was a point in my life where I would toy with the feeling of doubt to 'feel alive'--I don't recommend it.
However, what resulted from it was a desire defend and excogitate that tenets of Christianity to a world that isn't given the opportunity to understand.

Building up on what tango was saying; Dawkins entire thesis about the meme as a means to propagate widespread delirium is also a concept I found entirely unsupported, highly assertive and guilty of the same 'faults' he accuses Christianity of--believing in something with 'no' proof!

Christianity conforms with the law of non-contradiction; it isn't 'close minded'; exclusivity makes sense.
Christianity may also be divided but that doesn't negate any truth it contains, why would it?
Dawkins is out of his niche when it comes to philosophy, theology or metaphysics. His arguments are recycled, logically fallacious and unsupported.

I believe you are familiar with the pink unicorn, flying spaghetti monster and Chinese teacup? They do indeed prove one thing: just because you can't prove something doesn't exist, doesn't mean it does. Of course this rests on the assumption that Christianity has no proof for God's existence--which it does. The crux of those examples is to get the believer to admit that there is no proof for or against God--many believers, unfortunately, concede wrongly this point.

Dawkins is an articulate speaker, captivating and able to get across his thought process clearly. However, the only valid assertion he had was the behavior of the Israelites in the Old Testament, acting on the command(s) of God--everything else was trash and will only reinforce the faith of those who are dogmatically insistent there is no God.

You shouldn't be surprised to learn that even though Dawkins despises religion and God, he wants to keep the precepts of religious morality.
Talk about wishful thinking

demonfighter
Dec 24th 2007, 05:39 AM
God put those things in motion, in order, they are set up by him. time, space ,relativity , he created it all ,he does not live in time as we do for it is his creation . so what do you see that dosent make sence?

Sam Fisher
Dec 24th 2007, 10:05 AM
I don't know.

Much of what Dawkins says gels with me. I think he has a better argument than you give him credit for.
I went to my library and now I'm reading 'Unweaving the Rainbow'. I can also see it now, true beauty in science and art that requires no 'religious' feelings to appreciate. As I read more and more, the scales are falling from my eyes. Quite frankly, I'm beginning to feel embarrassed by some of the answers I've given friends quite recently. Things like young-earth creationism (a new name for something I believed what feels like years ago, but is just weeks) other Bible stories.

I still feel Jesus talking me through this time in my life, but this is something I'm going to have to work through for myself.
Thanks to everyone for the much needed support - You've all been wonderful!!:hug:

Have a great Christmas!

-Sam

tango
Dec 24th 2007, 10:11 AM
I still feel Jesus talking me through this time in my life, but this is something I'm going to have to work through for myself.

-Sam

If you can still feel Jesus talking to you then Jesus must still be there, which means God is out there, which means that God must exist.

If God exists then The God Delusion must be wrong.

If you're interested in the longer version of my thought process that ironically led me from The God Delusion to God I'll post them after Christmas - just let me know. In the meantime how about reading John's gospel over Christmas instead of any more Dawkins?

Athanasius
Dec 26th 2007, 10:23 PM
I don't know.

Much of what Dawkins says gels with me. I think he has a better argument than you give him credit for.
I went to my library and now I'm reading 'Unweaving the Rainbow'. I can also see it now, true beauty in science and art that requires no 'religious' feelings to appreciate. As I read more and more, the scales are falling from my eyes. Quite frankly, I'm beginning to feel embarrassed by some of the answers I've given friends quite recently. Things like young-earth creationism (a new name for something I believed what feels like years ago, but is just weeks) other Bible stories.

I still feel Jesus talking me through this time in my life, but this is something I'm going to have to work through for myself.
Thanks to everyone for the much needed support - You've all been wonderful!!:hug:

Have a great Christmas!

-Sam

You'll want to read There is a God by Antony Flew; just be aware of the controversy.
I should also mention that while you may find Dawkins persuasive, he didn't even begin to address the existence of God.
What he did do, however-and like every other outspoken atheist-was attack the actions of believers.

It's a non sequitur argument.
**Dawkins argument is only good because it brings together every major attack against the existence of God.
That's both good, and bad.

Sam Fisher
Dec 29th 2007, 02:03 PM
About two weeks ago, I posted this:

So I went and looked for these scientists on the 'net.
Owen Gingerich and Francis Collins both come with a lot of credentials to their names. They are both Evolutionists! From what I understand about evolution, it is directly contrary to the Word, both in terms of the Bible, and in terms of the Word in John 1:1. If God did not make man specially, if God did not breath into Adam to animate him, If death existed before Adam, then the entire doctrine of 'Original Sin' being the cause of earthly death falls flat. And if Original Sin falls flat, then so does the Atonement. If evolution is true, then Jesus died in vain. I can't accept that as truth.
I have a problem with some of the obvious scientific problems but not with the main doctrine. If the doctrine of Christianity is false, then what is TRUTH?

I took some time to study a bit more about evolution. Do you have any idea how much real evidence there is for evolution? Tons of it. Our DNA and cell structure differs only minutely from other great apes, and as we go back up the family tree, so we become less-related to other animals. I never thought I'd say this, but I am certain that evolution is real and that the scientists have actually got it right. The last few weeks have been a rough ride for me, but I'm at a turning point - Do I ignore everything I've learnt recently and cling desperately to what I now know is false, or do I turn my back on a non-existent salvation from a non-existent God?

tango
Dec 29th 2007, 02:29 PM
Do I ignore everything I've learnt recently and cling desperately to what I now know is false, or do I turn my back on a non-existent salvation from a non-existent God?

With all due respect Sam, do you "know" that evolution is true? Can you prove it conclusively?

I'm not clear how the theory of evolution, even if entirely true, is directly at odds with either the story of creation in Genesis or the introduction to John's gospel.

I see John's writing about "In the beginning was the Word" as referring to Jesus and God being one and the same, not creation and God being one and the same.

From what I recall of evolution theory the proposed sequence of evolution is remarkably similar to the written sequence of creation in Genesis.

Before you read any more texts that will make you doubt, please turn back to God in prayer. Having walked away from God once before I'd rather trust my own experience than any number of scholarly writings on what other people think is true.


Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

1Co 1:19 For it is written: "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND BRING TO NOTHING THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE PRUDENT."
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

Athanasius
Dec 29th 2007, 05:31 PM
About two weeks ago, I posted this:

I took some time to study a bit more about evolution. Do you have any idea how much real evidence there is for evolution? Tons of it. Our DNA and cell structure differs only minutely from other great apes, and as we go back up the family tree, so we become less-related to other animals. I never thought I'd say this, but I am certain that evolution is real and that the scientists have actually got it right. The last few weeks have been a rough ride for me, but I'm at a turning point - Do I ignore everything I've learnt recently and cling desperately to what I now know is false, or do I turn my back on a non-existent salvation from a non-existent God?

Well I would expect for our DNA to be similar--> God used the same materials to create everything, did he not? See evidence for one thing is also evidence for another. It just depends what bias you have when looking at the evidence.

What are the odds that life will rise out of a universe like ours? More than the actual number of atoms in the known universe? (10^40,000). Evolution has it almost all explained; 'A' turned into 'B', 'B' turned into 'C', 'C' turns into 'D' and so forth. The problem is that in having their intermediate forms, they have no idea the change that took place. They can speculate and assume and sure, it may sound good. But, you're replacing one belief which is statistically almost impossible with another belief that is statistically almost impossible.

The mind they can't explain, morality than can't explain. The lack of any solid fossil evidence they can't explain. The perfect evolution of multiple species at the same time to continue with that species they can't explain. One celled organisms which cloned themselves creating two sexed species? Take it further and you have planets that exist in our solar system that shouldn't. A third planet from the sun with more water than it should have. Mercury with a core far more solid than it should. But hey, scientists have a billion planetesimals. A beginning which can't be explained.

Not all of evolution is against Biblical teaching, good portions of it are though. Women are also quite similar to mountain goats (which may explain a thing or two ;)). That said, do you mind explaining how similarity proves common ancestry?

Tanya~
Dec 29th 2007, 05:35 PM
Maybe it would be good to expose yourself to evidence that shows evolution is not true. There is plenty to be had. Check out S8int.com (http://s8int.com/) for example. You're walking on dangerous ground.

What benefit is it to you, if you gain the whole of the world's knowledge, and lose your own soul?


Heb 3:12-15

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

If you are looking for reasons to reject the faith, you will find them. If you are looking for reasons to believe, you will find them.

Saved!
Dec 29th 2007, 08:16 PM
I have to agree fully. If you look for reasons to not believe you will find them. Absolutely.

Sam Fisher
Dec 29th 2007, 08:35 PM
It is with great sadness and a great deal of apprehension that I am writing this.

I have pored over this evidence for some time now. As much as I am loathe to admit it, the evidence from many, many branches of science is overwhelmingly positive and points to a universe that is many billions of years old; the earth formed after the sun; The earth is exceedingly old and simple geological processes formed what we have now; coal-beds in strata each many meters deep point to layering of long epochs of life and death with thousands, if not millions of years in between; ancient beaches hundreds of meters under the sea; Ancient seas (and marine fossils) thousands of meters above sea level on dry land; The ice sheets of Antarctica; continental drift; the Himalayas; the Egyptian civilisation that could not have sprung fully formed a few scant years after Noah was supposed to have landed on Mt Ararat; and the list goes on.

Biology; Paleantology; Geomorphology; Cosmology; Astronomy; Climatology; Geology; Mathematics; Physics; Chemistry; Archeology; each working in its own niche, often unaware of the other diciplines, each coming to similar conclusions about a diverse array of subjects, processes, and ages. There is NO WAY in my mind that every one of these is false; the only conclusion I can come to is that the Bible itself contains falsehoods. And if the Bible contains falsehoods, so does what I believed before. I am going to be spending the next few weeks reconciling what I now know with what the Bible says, trying to find where I may have gone wrong. Somehow, I am almost certain I will fail; much of what I believed to be true has been dissolved in a flash of bright light. It is so difficult to express how and what I feel, but it feels almost like I have reached the summit of a great mountain; all around is the crisp, clear air of knowledge and following my footsteps down, I see only a dark, misty, secluded valley from which very few venture out.

This has all been quite an epiphany for me, especially considering that I have always been rather timid-natured.
-Sam

dljc
Dec 29th 2007, 10:32 PM
Sam,

Four verses:

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Romans 1:19,20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Whether we like it or accept it or not. God's Hand is all over this universe. Psalms 118:8 reminds us it is better to put our faith in Him that it is in man. Man is corruptable, God isn't.

When you look at the stars or the beauty in nature, guess what? He made that! That is what all of these verses are telling us. No matter how much we may try to deny that He is there. We can't!

Things don't just happen. The universe didn't just happen. He Created it. (John 1:1-3 not to mention Genesis 1).

All of those things you mentioned "Biology; Paleantology; Geomorphology; Cosmology; Astronomy; Climatology; Geology; Mathematics; Physics; Chemistry; Archeology; each working in its own niche, often unaware of the other diciplines, each coming to similar conclusions about a diverse array of subjects, processes, and ages." What I have seen is that these often contradict each other.

For example there is a theory that the earth turned over on it's axis some 700,000 years ago or something like that. What they are saying is that when the earth turned over on it's axis many years ago that the earth was hit with radiation from the sun through the holes it generated in the atmosphere. Now if that is true, then the time line has been corrupted based on carbon dating. The idea of carbon dating is based on a constant amount of radiation if I remember right. So if these two things don't jive, something is wrong and it's going to throw off everything else isn't it?

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Athanasius
Dec 30th 2007, 06:39 AM
Sam, I have a older friend named Josh.
He didn't make it out of that secluded valley you talk about.

Life according to him has no point.
There is no truth; right, wrong, morality.

Most of all, there is no hope--it doesn't exist.
He's right. He isn't holding onto the pipe dreams of a Godless world view with the precepts a belief in God would bring.

Without an absolute law giver, you have no absolutes.
You can make life what you want it to be, but it's an illusion.

You made up your mind long ago.
And so as you go forward, secure in your own knowledge, be prepared.
Your answers aren't as solid as you believe them to be.

By the way, rock strata can form extremely quickly.
They don't point to a million year old earth and a billion year old universe.
Not that carbon dating can date back that far.

Thirst
Dec 30th 2007, 10:23 AM
I might need to stay out of this one... I'll pray about it.

Sam, my prayers are with you.

Duane Morse
Dec 30th 2007, 11:05 AM
Seek, and ye shall find - as the saying goes.

Seek one way, and you will find one set of answers.
Seek in another way, and you will find a completely different answer.

Funny how the same data can produce two diametrically opposed points of view, but - it is so.





Hosea 14:9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.

Thirst
Dec 30th 2007, 11:31 AM
Sam, I pray that you can be strong and take a stand for Christ.
I know you are confused.
I also know that there has been a cloud of doubt placed over your belief in Christ.

Here are some interesting things I would like to share with you, and I would like to know how one could believe that this could all be true, and so complex, without a creator. I know my reply is long, but I beg you to read it in its entirety. Please.

The size of the earth is...perfect

The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.

Water...

...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

The Human Brain...quite complex indeed.

The Human Brain simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands. Impressive!

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?

Does God exist? "Chance" or "Natural causes" are insufficient explanations. Period!

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck. How logical is that? That takes way more faith to believe than believing Christ rose from the dead and was who He said He was!

Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.

There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence -- arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?

Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you." This is God, in action.

Does God exist, Sam? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ.

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ.

Sam, you are treading dangerously here. How can you read the above and begin to explain all of that away? Why did the disciples choose to die for Christ if He represented nothing but a lie? After all, they encountered Christ face-to-face. They were with Him when He taught. They were with Him when He was put to death. They saw Him again after the Resurrection and He gave them the command to go out and preach the good news. And they did. Aggressively. They were tortured and put to death because they refused to compromise who they are in Christ. So, if there is no God, then there is no Savior, and the disciples knowingly died for an absolute lie. Who do you know that would do that?

Sam, don't compromise who you are in Christ. Don't let others steal your joy. It is good to evaluate and question our beliefs, but not at the cost of gaining 'knowledge' that could very possibly cost you your soul.

God bless you. I am praying for you, brother.

--Thirst

FallingWaters
Dec 30th 2007, 07:40 PM
Sam Fisher, you are being deceived by the god of this world who is the devil. Evolution is a lie based on the false assumption that there is no God. Since Jesus came to earth and proved that He is God, you have no excuse to not believe in Him.

You would be wise to read some Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell.

May God have mercy on you.

FallingWaters
Dec 30th 2007, 07:41 PM
Seek, and ye shall find - as the saying goes.

Seek one way, and you will find one set of answers.
Seek in another way, and you will find a completely different answer.

Funny how the same data can produce two diametrically opposed points of view, but - it is so.





Hosea 14:9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.That's EXACTLY the way it is!

Saved!
Dec 30th 2007, 08:09 PM
I am scared for you and will pray for you. Evolution is one of the many ways the Devil has of convincing us there is no God. I wish I knew exactly what to say to convince you.

Thirst
Jan 1st 2008, 11:38 AM
Sam, are you still with us? Did you read any replies recently?

Praying for you, bro...

Sam Fisher
Jan 1st 2008, 07:11 PM
Yeah, I'm still here.
Just been busy with family commitments over the new year.

Happy 2008, everybody!

I'll post again in a day or two, I still have a LOT of reading and praying to do!

-Sam

Saved!
Jan 1st 2008, 08:16 PM
Glad to see your still with us! I am still praying for you. You've got a lot on your plate right now.

Sam Fisher
Jan 2nd 2008, 06:41 PM
It hasn't been very good for me this past week. I am having minor nightmares. I dream about standing on judgement day and having to say "I asked too much, and I drifted away from your Word" and it is making me really afraid.

Yet I can feel my faith slipping away. More and more it feels like my prayers are just 'talking to the walls' and that there isn't really anyone there to listen.
Has anyone else had this experience? I know many of you mention a falling away and return to the flock, but I'm not sure any of you felt THIS way.

Tanya~
Jan 2nd 2008, 06:49 PM
Sam why don't you just return to the Lord? You're walking on very dangerous ground, spiritually. Would it really be worth it, to lose your relationship with God for the sake of scientific 'truths' that are subject to change without notice?

Zech 1:3
Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts: "Return to Me," says the LORD of hosts, "and I will return to you," says the LORD of hosts.
NKJV

FaithfulSheep
Jan 2nd 2008, 06:53 PM
Keep praying. And tell the Lord exactly how you feel. Tell Him how confused you are about this situation and ask Him to show you His Truth. Are you still reading your Bible? Because that is where you will find Truth. Then you must believe and have faith that He CAN do all things. He CAN create this earth, He CAN create us, and He CAN show you His truth. I believe I mentioned before that I am not a scientific person at all... however knowing what little I do makes me see even more that it is absolutely amazing how God does all the little things to make bigger things (i.e. all the dna and cells within us that all work together to make us what we are). When I look at this intricate world we live in it is beyond what is fathomable to me to begin to envision the details that went into creating each thing on this earth. You need to place your trust in the Lord and His Word. With Him is the truth.

tango
Jan 2nd 2008, 06:54 PM
It hasn't been very good for me this past week. I am having minor nightmares. I dream about standing on judgement day and having to say "I asked too much, and I drifted away from your Word" and it is making me really afraid.

Yet I can feel my faith slipping away. More and more it feels like my prayers are just 'talking to the walls' and that there isn't really anyone there to listen.
Has anyone else had this experience? I know many of you mention a falling away and return to the flock, but I'm not sure any of you felt THIS way.

I managed to rationalise away any concept of God and any form of supernature beyond the New Age concepts of cosmic energy. I've seen enough that I simply cannot and could not believe that there is no such thing as supernature.

Sure, my experience wasn't with any specific branch(es) of science but the net effect was the same. It took 16 years to find my way back again.


1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.


When a lion chases a herd of prey species it doesn't care which one it ends up catching. It just chases the herd and as soon as one breaks away from the pack it becomes lunch. Watch for things that cause you to break away.


Jas 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 2nd 2008, 07:00 PM
I don't know what to do. I've been praying about it for hours and days and weeks. I've fasted, even for three days straight. My mind is in turmoil. All my life I've been a Christian, I've been saved since 1991, baptised in 1992, and have been living for Jesus every minute of every day.

Until now.

My work requires me to use and maintain many sophisticated electronic instruments. A few months ago, I had a particularly difficult time with a GPS (Global Positioning System) device which seemed to be working, but just wasn't producing the correct results. Eventually I began studying the principles on which this device operates. I thought I knew - You're simply triangulating the positions of a herd of satellites from the GPS antenna. That's correct, but it is far deeper than that. Special relativity plays a part, and once I started looking into relativity (and it was heavy going in the beginning) a whole new world of wonder opened up to me in a way I'd never experienced before.

I'd studied sciences. I made it through high school and college for a tertiary qualification, but then, it was just formulas and rules without any life of their own. I'm seeing science in a completely different way, an exciting way that just makes me want to study more and more, but my pursuit is taking me further and further from my Bible.

I've still got faith, and that is not in doubt. It's what I believe now that is worrying me. Relativity has taken me on a journey into cosmology (the study of the stars, space, and time) and almost all cosmologists don't believe in God at all. I was shocked to read about how they deny our Heavenly Father's authority, but their arguments about how space and matter and energy 'works' is so obvious, so alluring, that I can't get it out of my head! It collides head-on with Genesis, and they can't both be right. Either Science is false, or Genesis is false, or both are false. Every cell of my body screams out that the Bible can't be false, but I can no longer believe it. I can't feel it as truth any longer.

It's driving me insane! What can I do?


~~but their arguments about how space and matter and energy 'works' is so obvious, so alluring, that I can't get it out of my head!Hi there Sam Fisher,

Good day to you!

Eve totally understands what your saying. We all do, we came from her in our first birth.

It was what she heard begin told her, where she then believed it, that caused her to be deceived. When she believed - that new belief (new doctrine) was then set up in her heart.

And so that which is in our heart is what needs to be dealt with.

Fisher, deal with the lust in your heart and you won't be tempted to sin, when tempations come. It's the Babylon in our heart that we have missed to ask God for wisdom on.

In Christ and in the same battle upon my heart-land,
Connie (Dallas, Tx)

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 2nd 2008, 07:05 PM
It hasn't been very good for me this past week. I am having minor nightmares. I dream about standing on judgement day and having to say "I asked too much, and I drifted away from your Word" and it is making me really afraid.

Yet I can feel my faith slipping away. More and more it feels like my prayers are just 'talking to the walls' and that there isn't really anyone there to listen.
Has anyone else had this experience? I know many of you mention a falling away and return to the flock, but I'm not sure any of you felt THIS way.

Sam Fisher,

Sorry for a 2nd post so soon,...though I hope this gives you some insight. Ask God to show you this as well. Don't just simply receive anything, from me, unless God confirms it to your heart first.

Isolation, like you using the words "I'm not sure any of you felt THIS way", is a deception of the enemy. Hold those thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. That's why you were given weapon's when you first believed Christ as your Savior and Lord. But if the devil can get into you thinking that 'no one knows the trouble you've seen' then you'll begin to believe that 'no one can help you' not Even God. Beware dear Christian brother, your dreams are trying to help you to keep the "Fear of The Lord" in your heart which will depart us from evil. But it is a walk. I believe your still 'in The Way' it's just you need to walk now in it - in possessing your soul with Christ, in patience. When we walk under the Authority of God's Word and under authority, the devil will have no ground or appeal to you and then your resistance toward him will cause him to flee from you. And the devil will be soon looking at the bottom of your feet.

But rest O' friend of God, for God's Peace knows exactly how to work these things in all of our lives as we follow on with Christ Jesus our Lord.

Have you ever heard about "being Delivered"? Or the Ministry of "Deliverance"?
And have you ever listened to "Kent Hovind" speak on t.v. He comes on the iLife Channel on Sunday's through a show called 'The Creation Series". He is a blessing!

From what you have said, Sam Fisher, you have been getting a whole lot of 'mixture' into your head. When God tells us, in His Word, not to sow 2 kinds of seeds in our field.
It does harm to the land when we do. As your now finding out. (hugs)

If we don't thoughts captive to obey Christ they will eventually get down into the heart. And then when it comes out of your mouth it is sin. And if sin isn't confessed to God and forsaken God has to bring Chastening our way to get us to begin listening to Him all over again. Whom He Chastens, He loves. Just don't be weary if it's coming your way, which I'm sure some has already been happening to you. But God does these things to us so that we will share in His Holiness and not for our destruction. He only sent the serpents to Israel in the wilderness when those choose to disobey and murmur about God in the camp. Test your heart and see if God is wanting to show you some murmuring in your heart. God used the situation of you learning science to show you what you have been trusting in. It's not so much the science your learning that is hurting you, but that which was in your heart that lead you to it. The science books you've learned from is not sin, it's just words on a page. But it's what lures you 'to do a thing' is in the transgression in the heart. And in mine as well, when things happen to me.


1 Tim 6:20-21

20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
KJV


Satan is attempting to rob your Faith in God and in God's Word. Fight the good fight 'of Faith' - it's to your Eternal Life.

I will pray for you Sam Fisher.
Please, feel free to PM me, if you like.

FallingWaters
Jan 3rd 2008, 02:15 AM
It hasn't been very good for me this past week. I am having minor nightmares. I dream about standing on judgement day and having to say "I asked too much, and I drifted away from your Word" and it is making me really afraid.

Yet I can feel my faith slipping away. More and more it feels like my prayers are just 'talking to the walls' and that there isn't really anyone there to listen.
Has anyone else had this experience? I know many of you mention a falling away and return to the flock, but I'm not sure any of you felt THIS way.You remind me of dreams I used to have. I had a recurring dream that I was in heaven standing in a long line with other people, all waiting to be judged. After I was saved, I never dreamed it again.

I had to admit to God I was a sinner and humbly ask Him to forgive me, which of course He did, because He is a loving Father.

Sam Fisher
Jan 3rd 2008, 05:37 PM
Thank you, everyone, for standing by me!
I will overcome these obstacles that Satan is throwing into my path. In my heart I know that the Bible is the truth, but in my mind...

I am at a low point in my walk, and the guilt I feel for not being able to take God at his Word is hurting. I will persevere; there has to be light at the end of the tunnel. I am trusting Jesus to show me the way to the real Truth, but the truth I am finding in science is incontrovertable to me.

I cannot believe Noah and his Ark is a real story; Animal husbandry with striped sticks just seems like a fireside tale to me; and Genesis 1 and 2 I cannot see to be absolute truth when there is so much empirical evidence to prove the opposite!

I'll keep you posted with my progress!

-Sam

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 3rd 2008, 06:24 PM
Sam Fisher,

:kiss: You are loved and can always have real peace with God without torment - that's the whole lot summed up in God's Word. God is coming to us to Love on us.

A lady Minister once said to us that 'You become what you steadfastly behold."

Take care in your days, what you steadily behold because it will determine your progress in life. When you see the Blessing of God and the Curses of God before you then remember God and turn back to Him and He will heal you. You got His Word on that - from Genesis to Revelation.

He who tries to separate God from His Word will always be a tempting serpent who comes but to steal, kill and destroy. His serpent words will seem convincing, as Eve found out and was deceived, but in the end it only brings sin and death to the soul.

But the GoodNews is, is that Jesus Christ came (who Is The Word of God) that you might have life, not torments, and have it more abundantly (Eternal Life) right now.

:pray:
Personally, I will continue my prayers for you as you look into His perfect Law of Liberty (God Word which can wash us clean) which has no chains or torments to give to our minds - ever! Repent and believe the GoodNews, and then your soul will begin to be purged from Satan's flood of words, along with all lusts which has entered into the heart which chokes the Word of God. And our lives become unfruitful.

But it is a walk, little by little we are delivered and sanctified. PM, to chat if you wish. I'll then give you my E-mail address.



Behold God's Word for your help in the coming days:

Jesus said, "The sower soweth the word.., but
when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the
word that was sown in their hearts" (by turning their hearts to something
else)... "These are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who,
when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and
have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when
affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are
offended." (They fall away from the faith and their hearts turn to things like
pride, reputation, greed, treasures of this world, selfishness, and they love
these things more than the Lord.) "And these are they which are sown
among thorns; such as hear the word, and (the powers of darkness bring)
the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of
other things entering in, choke the
word, and it becometh unfruitful" (Mark 4: 14-19).


Deal with lust in your heart Sam, though the worldly wisdom is enticing as you'll learning all too well, and God will take you further where the Devil will not have any more ground in you.
If a man lacks wisdom, let him as 'of God' (James 1).

Just so you have been told, circular reasoning is what false science does, not God's Word who is also Jesus come in the Flesh.

John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
KJV




In His Love,
Connie

DanDMan64
Jan 3rd 2008, 06:28 PM
Hey Sammy, happy new year to you, though I'm sorry to hear so far it hasn't been that great.

So I hear the devil has come around with another "science" book saying that God must not be real because the earth is so old that it had plenty of time to "stew-us-up" into existence? That doesn't surprise me at all, what does surprise me is that you, professing to be a believer and a follower of Jesus Christ, are so ready and willing to believe that "Theory."

After all that's all that evolution is, is just a "theory" and as hard as they try to convince the world that it is the truth, bottom line is they have so many holes to plug that it just doesn't hold-up water very well, and the day is coming when the dam of God's truth will brake and their little theory will be done away with along with the earth that God will have to tear-up and re build from scratch to get it back to the way He originally meant for it to be.

I don't want to judge you Sam, I'm a big believer in that every believer's walk with Christ is personal and He reveals and deals with every one on a very personal level, but every once in a while it helps to look at how others are dealing with life as related to their relationship with The Lord to see if there's something we should be doing better, or should stop doing altogether, and it seems to me in your walk you must be neglecting to do something that is allowing the devil to take a hold of your thoughts in such a way that makes it easy for him to tell you all kinds of lies knowing that you will believe them, but you must know this, "Eph 6:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Sammy, listen to me, these nightmares you've been having, they are God's way of telling you to "wake-up and smell the coffee", be aware of the spiritual battle that is going on around you to pull you away from loving the Lord and trusting Him for all your needs, even your need to know the truth, because what it's at stake here is your eternal soul, it means nothing to the devil, he doesn't care for you one bit, but he only wants to make sure you end-up with him in the same lake of fire you were never meant to be-in, just so he can know for all eternity that he was able to steal, kill, and destroy "Sam Fisher" God's precious child, from spending eternity in the loving presence of his creator, who loved him so much He sent Him his only begotten Son to take his punishment so that his sins could be forgiven, and all for what? just so his curiosity could be satisfied? is your searching for truth more important to you than your relationship with the source of all truth?

I don't know what denomination you belong to, but I think perhaps you're problem is that the reason you have so many problems believing in the power of God, is that you haven't yet experienced the irrefutable evidence of the existence of God through the baptism of fire, of the loving presence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus said this: Jn 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." So you see Sam, being saved is great, walking with Jesus is great, but having the power of the Holy Spirit of God helping you in your walk and helping you properly look at the word of God with new eyes so you can clearly see the truth that is there within it's pages, that's what makes God more real to you than any number of "books" the devil can throw at you, which again I emphasize are written by men who do not know God, and only know the limited amount of knowledge that God has allowed them to know about, and in their own minds they have exalted themselves to think that they know it all, and that they hold all the keys, and that only their tools and experiments are enough to prove that God is only a myth, they are the blind leading the blind into a ditch, so please take off your blind-fold and let the eternal truth of God shine in your face and seek His truth be revealed to you by asking Him for the anointing of the holy oil, The Spirit, The Comforter. :hug:

OzPilgrim
Jan 3rd 2008, 08:14 PM
Hi Sam,

I've just dropped in on this thread today and I've read the progress of all the posts.

I've seen the scientific arguments posted here by you and others - that's all outside my educational and professional grounding. However, a lot of what we're talking about here you can break down to a very simple litmus test about whether or not we believe that Jesus Christ was telling the truth about who He said He was or not.

Start with the OT - Christ regularly quoted from what we now call the Old Testament. He referred to the "sign of Jonah", coming from the story about a guy being swallowed by a fish. He said not only that there had been a man from Ur named Abraham who God had personally visited and called to leave Mesopotamia, but that He had personally predated him and had seen his life (meaning he'd phyiscally seen events some thousands of years before). He repeatedly said that the writings of the OT prophets had been fufilled in Himself. So in effect, Christ gave an unmitigated seal of approval on the veracity of the Old Testament. I believe that there are clear cases in the OT where God used his power over natural events to bring about miracles, while I believe that there are others where He suspended and overrode the "laws" of nature to accomplish something He wished to. But regardless, Christ implied the essential truth of the Old Testament. More on this further down.

Then with the NT - there is nothing more defiant of the claims of science than the notion of the resurrection. Try offering the following to someone who wants hard objective scientific truth that can be empirically proven at all costs - that a man who lived 2,000 years ago who claimed in Himself the authority and power of God came here to live amongst us until the point where He handed his life over to those who wanted to kill Him and was then killed but then rose from the grave not temporally, but permanently, thus proving His power and fulfilling His promise to do the same for us.

You can't prove the resurrection with science - but if you don't believe in the resurrection you cannot call yourself a Christian. To me arguments about whether or not God literally flooded the earth or caused the sun to stand still or caused an axe head to float on water absolutely pale in comparison to our notion of the resurrection. If God has the power to raise Himself (and us) from physical death, the others would be pretty minor concerns by way of comparison.

There were periods where I questioned the logic of my Christian belief. However the alternative to me, a universe without purpose, a universe that happened by chance, one in which morality is relative, one in which the ultimate end is death and whereby our efforts in life, the things we suffer, the loss of those close to us and so on lead only to a foregone conclusion in the grave at which point we simply terminate - I don't buy it.

My faith that the concepts we have of good, virtue, love - and through the narrative given to us through Christ - hope and salvation (all things that can't be qualified or quantified by science) originated with a Creator and Designator compels me to know that there is more to our existence than what see and interact with. That includes everything I see in front of me at my desk right now to everything that I know exists at the boundaries of our known physical existence. And if I draw this conclusion about a Creator, I acknowledge that I live by faith in His power and reasoning, not by the paltry understanding of real existence that I or others induce from science.

I've previously cited "Miracles" by CS Lewis on this forum as an argument for faith that I found very influential. I'd strongly encourage you to read it. In it he made a very crucial argument that I believe is relevant to the sorts of concerns you have about empircal proof versus faith.

Specifically, he compared the concept of the 'Naturalist' versus the 'Super-Naturalist'. I'll throw in a couple of quotes that I hope will be relevant to you - I'll skip around a bit but I'll try to keep this as linear as possible - taken from the chapter titled 'The Naturalist and the Supernaturalist':

"What the Naturalist believes is that the ultimate Fact, the thing you can't go behind, is a vast process in space and time which is going on of its own accord. Inside that total system each particular event...happens because some other event has happened; in the long run, because the Total Event is happening...All the things and events are so completely interlocked that no one of them can claim the slightest independence from 'the whole show'."

"The Supernaturalist agrees with the Naturalist that there must be something which exists in its own right; some basic Fact whose existence it would be nonsensical to try to explain because this Fact is itself the ground or starting-point of all explanations. But he does not identify this Fact with 'the whole show'...The Supernaturalist...believes that the one original or self-existent thing is on a different level from, and more important than, all other things."

"The Supernaturalist believes that one Thing exists on its own and has produced the framework of space and time and the procession of systematically connected events which fill them. This framework, and this filling, he calls Nature. It may, or may not, be the only reality which the one Primary Thing has produced. There might be other systems in addition to the one we call nature. In that sense there might be several 'Natures'...Other Natures might not be spatio-temporal at all: or, if any of them were, their space and time would have no spatial or temporal relation to ours. This does not mean that there would be absolutely no relation between them; they would be related by their common derivation from a single Supernatural source. They would, in this respect, be like different novels by a single author; the events in one story have no relation to the events in another except that they are invented by the same author. To find the relation between them you must go right back to the author's mind:"

And here's his argument that I pray will cause you to do some critical thinking:

"...there would be no normal cutting across from an event in one Nature to an event in any other. By a 'normal' relation I mean one which occurs in virtue of the character of the two systems. We have to put in the qualification 'normal' because we do not know in advance that God might not bring two Natures in partial contact at some particular point: that is, He might allow selected events in the one to produce results in the other."

Along with the others I will be praying that you will listen with your heart and ACTIVELY submit to Him in faith.

-Jay

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 3rd 2008, 09:29 PM
Sam,

I sure do have a heart for you Sam, though I am new here, like the rest here. Only God can truly communicate The Godly love we have for you in your waywardness. As I'm re-turning myself in areas of my own heart because God's Banner over me is Love. And He communicates this through me by His Holy Spirit and His Word and through His People.

If God's Word (Genesis let's say), wasn't "The Truth" or truthful or even trust worthy, how did this same Word become flesh to dwell among us to come to save your soul? And mine?

The same soul that is now in torment. If we question God's Word (who is Jesus come in the flesh) are you now saved from Eternal Damnation?

And if we question God's Word, which came in the flesh, why did Jesus (for real) die for you on The Cross? In other words, why did ~Genesis~ die for you Sam and why did Geneis tell you years before that it would be dying for you? That's not circular reasoning, that is none other than The Way, The Truth and The Life. And no man wanting to go to The Father gets to Him, but through Genesis; The same Word that came in the flesh to take your place of death so that you would be saved from the torment your going through right now. The Bible is not a doctrine of men (Christian's) it came in the flesh to seek and to save that which was lost. When we look to other things in the world we are practicing sin Sam. And we are following False Teachers, dear Sam. They are among us, be aware of them, Jesus told you this also.


John 15:7
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
KJV

Sam, if you don't know what is The Truth, and what your asking is not being done for you, it's only because your not loving to abide in Christ nor in His Words that He has said.



John 12:47-48
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
KJV

When we don't look at the lust in our own heart, we stop The Fear of The Lord from flowing in our lives which aids us to depart from evil and unbelief. And we quench the Holy Spirit of God which convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgment. Your following the prince, of this world, that is already judged/condemned to perish forever, Sam! You have to address the Spiritual side of it all - that's where the answers are which leads to life and not to death and torment.

These are two short, but a good read about The Fear of The Lord:
http://home1.gte.net/web23vhn/Fear-of-the-Lord.htm
http://home1.gte.net/web23vhn/Sin-Unto-Death.htm

Actually Sam, these false teachers (science so called) are persecuting you for your Faith, with every stroke of their pen. And your lust within is letting them ship wreck your faith, because have never came to God through Jesus Christ with your whole heart in repentance.


Sam?

Sam Fisher
Jan 3rd 2008, 10:01 PM
and it seems to me in your walk you must be neglecting to do something that is allowing the devil to take a hold of your thoughts in such a way that makes it easy for him to tell you all kinds of lies knowing that you will believe them, but you must know this, "Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Hi, Dan. And a happy new year to you and your family too.

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I agree with almost everything you say, except for the above where you mention evolution and then the quote above. You say evolution is a 'theory' and imply that it is just a pack of lies.

I disagree. Evolution is no longer accepted in the scientific community as a theory, any more than gravity is a 'theory'. Yes, there are different thoughts about what gravity is, but most everyone is pretty certain that gravity is a fact. In the same way, life changes and adapts to it's environment and the sum total of all those gradual changes is the biodiversity we see today. The precise mechanics and means hasn't all been worked out yet. That evolution happens - It's a fact.

Google "evolution" and read what science has to say before throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm afraid that ICR and AIG just don't cut the mustard; these guys are defending an untenable position which I'm sure some time in the near future will be exposed as false and no-one will believe them any more in the same way that you won't find any credible person who supports the sun revolving around the earth any longer.

The earth is quite obviously not less than 10 000 years old - any attempt to prove it is, is based on explaining the data to fit an a priori conclusion, rather than the correct method whereby the data is interpreted to find an explanation, no matter how strange it may seem at first glance. Old Sherlock Holmes said it best: “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

Athanasius
Jan 3rd 2008, 10:08 PM
Sam if you already have your mind made up, then why are you still posting?
I don't mean to say stop posting on this forum or subject, but. . .???

Observable evolution in no way contradicts Biblical teaching.
And that's an important distinction.

Until then, evolution is really only a theory, and it's not as strong a theory as gravity. Because where evolution is founded--the spontaneous rise of life, there is no observable, testable, repeatable experiment to show this true or not. It is based purely in faith that this is possible (>10^40,000:1 ?)

The very foundation of that aspect of evolution has just as much proof as atheists claim Christians have proof of God--none.

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 3rd 2008, 10:30 PM
Sam, do you see what your doing? Your avoiding your own heart.

Your now starting to defend what goes against God's Word, which became flesh, to save your soul which has been in torment.
And this is the devils scheme, to take God's Word from your life. If The Word is removed then the life is not saved.
See if Satan can choke out God's Word from you, your life is not saved.

In other words, I'm a gardener a back yard gardener that is *chuckles,* but if I don't plant a seed (let's say a tomato seed) in our garden soil that patch of soil will be unfruitful at harvest. And Jesus said that the fields were already white and ready for Harvest - and that was 2000 years ago. How's your field doing, Sam?

Genesis is no longer valid to you because what goes against The Truth of God (who became flesh) has attached itself to you. It's entered in and is choking The Word that once was sown in your heart. <------Jesus Christ said that, not us. We just proclaim His Truth. Actually, Genesis (who came in the flesh to save you) has already said this to you 2000 years ago.

Re-consider allowing God's Word to re-fill your heart:
"And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
and (the powers of darkness bring) the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches,
and the lusts of other things entering in,
choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful" (Mark 4: 14-19).

Sam Fisher
Jan 3rd 2008, 10:48 PM
Sam if you already have your mind made up, then why are you still posting?
I don't mean to say stop posting on this forum or subject, but. . .???

Observable evolution in no way contradicts Biblical teaching.
And that's an important distinction.

Until then, evolution is really only a theory, and it's not as strong a theory as gravity. Because where evolution is founded--the spontaneous rise of life, there is no observable, testable, repeatable experiment to show this true or not. It is based purely in faith that this is possible (10^40,000:1 ?)

The very foundation of that aspect of evolution has just as much proof as atheists claim Christians have proof of God--none.

My problem is that Genesis (and a few other books of the Bible) are observably incorrect in their recounting of the facts. The whole evolution thing (which, by the way, says NOTHING about how life originated - That's bio-genesis, another discipline entirely) is secondary, except as partial proof that the mentioned books are at odds with reality. That is the crux of my problem. If the Bible is not infallible, then what is truth, and what is 'fireside tales'? How can we uncover the truth when the measure we use to determine the truth is itself not reliable? This is my struggle, and I cannot find a way to maintain what I desperately want to believe with what I know to be false.

tango
Jan 3rd 2008, 10:52 PM
My problem is that Genesis (and a few other books of the Bible) are observably incorrect in their recounting of the facts. The whole evolution thing (which, by the way, says NOTHING about how life originated - That's bio-genesis, another discipline entirely) is secondary, except as partial proof that the mentioned books are at odds with reality. That is the crux of my problem. If the Bible is not infallible, then what is truth, and what is 'fireside tales'? How can we uncover the truth when the measure we use to determine the truth is itself not reliable? This is my struggle, and I cannot find a way to maintain what I desperately want to believe with what I know to be false.

Sam, can you give a little more detail about how Genesis is demonstrably false? Are you basing that on a literal interpretation of words like "day", or are you saying the sequence is fundamentally wrong?

I would be very concerned if the Bible were fundamentally and demonstrably false (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), but if it's incorrect based on a literal reading while standing up under a metaphorical reading (e.g. regarding a "day" as several million years perhaps) I'd be much less concerned.

I keep coming back to the verse in Proverbs I've listed before but will list again:

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 3rd 2008, 11:04 PM
Sam, can you give a little more detail about how Genesis is demonstrably false? Are you basing that on a literal interpretation of words like "day", or are you saying the sequence is fundamentally wrong?

I would be very concerned if the Bible were fundamentally and demonstrably false (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), but if it's incorrect based on a literal reading while standing up under a metaphorical reading (e.g. regarding a "day" as several million years perhaps) I'd be much less concerned.

I keep coming back to the verse in Proverbs I've listed before but will list again:

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Amen. :pray:

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.


Ps 2:12
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV

Athanasius
Jan 3rd 2008, 11:08 PM
My problem is that Genesis (and a few other books of the Bible) are observably incorrect in their recounting of the facts. The whole evolution thing (which, by the way, says NOTHING about how life originated - That's bio-genesis, another discipline entirely) is secondary, except as partial proof that the mentioned books are at odds with reality. That is the crux of my problem. If the Bible is not infallible, then what is truth, and what is 'fireside tales'? How can we uncover the truth when the measure we use to determine the truth is itself not reliable? This is my struggle, and I cannot find a way to maintain what I desperately want to believe with what I know to be false.

Yes, but it's superfluous, and it's only ducking the assertion.
The Christian asks in response to evolution, 'what started the Big bang'
--> Oh that's not evolution, that's another theory.
The Christian asks in response to evolution, 'how did life rise out of nothing'?
--> Oh, that's not evolution, that's bio-genesis.

The point is: where and how did it all begin????

In a singularity where the laws of physics don't exist?
With a God?
Was everything just always here?

You have to go back to a point where there is either 1) A God or 2) things just always 'were' or 3) you just don't know.
Admittedly with 3) you potentially undermine the entire 'proven' theory.

As Duane said earlier, you're going to find evidence for what you believe no matter what evidence there is to the contrary (special pleading).

I agree with Tango, I'd give up any notion of God if one line of the Bible were proved incorrect. Hasn't happened yet.
What about Genesis do you find observably incorrect?

Honestly, you want to believe, but no person in their 'right mind' is going to force themselves to believe something they find ridiculous.
Nothing we tell you is going to change your made up mind.

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 3rd 2008, 11:10 PM
By Sam:

My problem is that Genesis (and a few other books of the Bible) are observably incorrect in their recounting of the facts.

Hey there Sam, can you hear what's coming from you?

You lost the Holy Facts of Genesis, when you hocked up with faithless false prophets and teachers.

Genesis' Holy Facts is that you are here on earth and so is God who created it all. And this same Word (Genesis) came to save you from your sins which were against God and His Christ (God's Word) even before He began to speak His Whole universe into being, including you and I.


Genesis, came in the flesh to seek and to save you Sam.
John 1:1-3,14
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV

KJV

God's Word is made to 'walk in' not analyze and speculate about it. That's what false science has done and so they are not men of 'Faith' with God.
Sam?

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 3rd 2008, 11:19 PM
Honestly, you want to believe, but no person in their 'right mind' is going to force themselves to believe something they find ridiculous.
Nothing we tell you is going to change your made up mind.

Xel'Naga, Amen.
_______________________________________________

Come on Sam, talk to us about your heart - the other stuff you speak of is just a decoy. It's only a cloak of covering of what's happening to your heart. It's being robbed of God's Word. And even the devil knows that, he's the one doing it. But you must put to death, through God's Spirit, your lusts and it's deeds or the devil will keep on having ground in you and choking more of God's Word in you. And if I don't enter that same warfare, Satan is out to do the same to me, to rob from me God's Word that has been sown in my heart.

:kiss: Your among Christian's who have The Spirit of God.
Please, look at your heart and get real with us. We love people, we love you Sam with your wrinkles and all! ;) Open your heart!

Sam, you and I (for the most part) have been here all afternoon long: (Jesus-Is-Real, Sam Fisher+)

I'm still asking you to Open your heart to us here and stop all the decoys. And just get real with what's really happening in your heart.

Circular Reasoning:
Sam, when God writes in His Book at Judgment Day in regards to the destination of your soul, will you be able to tell Him then at He is circular reasoning at that time?
Or if He blots your name out of the Book of Life would He have made a mistake then? Could we say "to God" in Eternity that His reason is flawed, because He blotted out a name that was once in His Book of Life?
Please, please Sam open your heart, that is the real issue.



Genesis, now in it's Glorifed Body has said:

Rev 3:20-21
20 Behold, I (Gesesis who was made flesh - Jesus Christ) stand at the door (at your heart), and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door (your heart), I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
KJV

Sam?

:pray: Come back to Love, Sam. And what you ask ~shall be done unto you~. You got His Word on that!
Genesis became a man (the God-Man) to die for you. And if that's not True Fact and Truth enough for your heart, then we all are lost (who are speaking to you) and most wreched and the real false prophets and teachers. This sermon page will bless you which has those mp3's: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=521 <---The first mp3 begins with a Spiritual Warfare prayer.

DanDMan64
Jan 4th 2008, 09:28 PM
Hi, Dan. And a happy new year to you and your family too.

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I agree with almost everything you say, except for the above where you mention evolution and then the quote above. You say evolution is a 'theory' and imply that it is just a pack of lies.

I disagree. Evolution is no longer accepted in the scientific community as a theory, any more than gravity is a 'theory'. Yes, there are different thoughts about what gravity is, but most everyone is pretty certain that gravity is a fact. In the same way, life changes and adapts to it's environment and the sum total of all those gradual changes is the biodiversity we see today. The precise mechanics and means hasn't all been worked out yet. That evolution happens - It's a fact.

Google "evolution" and read what science has to say before throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm afraid that ICR and AIG just don't cut the mustard; these guys are defending an untenable position which I'm sure some time in the near future will be exposed as false and no-one will believe them any more in the same way that you won't find any credible person who supports the sun revolving around the earth any longer.

The earth is quite obviously not less than 10 000 years old - any attempt to prove it is, is based on explaining the data to fit an a priori conclusion, rather than the correct method whereby the data is interpreted to find an explanation, no matter how strange it may seem at first glance. Old Sherlock Holmes said it best: “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”Sammy, it's quite obvious I'm not getting through to you, the only reason you're so easily fooled by arguments like, and I say again, "The theory of evolution", which I believe will eventually be the camp that will be prooven wrong and exposed for the lie that it is when the perfect truth of God is made manifest, is because your faith has already been shaken to the point where you no longer believe in God, but the problem is there is a part of God in you which became alive when you accepted Christ as your Saviour back in 1991, so in your heart you know God is real even though you can't see Him or have any means to measure Him, touch Him, or explain Him, this is what we call "faith".

Now you look at science which tells you, "there is no God, and we know because we can't see Him, nor can we measure Him, touch Him, or explain Him, so the most logical conclusion for this is that He doesn't exist." "furthermore..." they tell you, "...that book that claims He made everything, that religion tells you He does exist because He made everything we can see, and measure, and touch, and explain, well we have examined everything and we have concluded the timing is wrong, and everything just happened, and therefore the book is full of lies, and thusly we have rightly and unequivocally concluded the there is no God", if you believe that then tell me who's the one ready to throw-out the baby with the bath water?

What you're telling me then is that your new god is science, because in your mind science has conquered the Bible, which is the word of God, so by doing so science has in fact conquered God and proved Him to be just a myth, a lie, a delusion, and a product of our imagination. Again, the problem with that, and thus what makes your head want to explode, is that deep down inside YOU KNOW GOD IS REAL, because yo have met Him and have fellowship with Him, and you know it was the truth you found in the Bible that introduced you to Him.

Wow man, I can see your struggle, and I'm sorry to say there's very little else I can tell you, other than, that it was God who created man, it is He who gave us a brain and intelligence and the ability to reason, and His existence is made manifest to us by the intricacy and wonder and awesomeness of His creation, and only a fool could look at all of this and conclude that there was no creator, which in fact the Bible tells us in Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

Imagine you were walking along the beach and found a shiny peace of metal, you took it and noticed it was round and kind of flattened-out on the sides and it had a piece sticking out of one side, and seemed to be making a constant repetitive noise. As you played with it you accidentally pressed the piece and the thing opened-up magically as if it were two pieces to uncover a glass covered face within it, which revealed needles and numbers and it seemed one needle was moving in one direction, eventually you noticed that the other needle was moving as well but just at a much slower rate. Not knowing yet what this was and it's purpose was you took it home and got some tools out, determined to examine this thing closer to see if you could "figure it out". Let's say eventually you removed the back cover and found the intricate detail in moving gears and springs and latches and rods, and further more you were able to determine that the motion of the two needles coincided with the movement of the sun and the moon outside so that it seemed that when the needles got together at the uppermost point where the number 12 was, then you were right in the middle of the day or the night. Of course common knowledge tells us that what you found was a pocket watch, but only a fool would conclude after investigating this wonderful thing, that it must have been just an accident that it came to exist, and that there was no intelligent being that could have conceived it and put it together.

Science is only knowledge, and knowledge is incomplete, faith is only the promise of complete and perfect knowledge, faith fills-in the gaps that science can not fill, so why are you in such a hurry to conclude that science is enough, there is so much more to be known that can be seen or touched or experienced with the senses. Sammy, perhaps we'll never know how Genesis really happened while we're on this earth, but the fact still remains that we are here and that God made us and the earth and He has made it possible for us to join Him in this lifetime spiritually and someday face to face in eternity, why can't that be enough for you? and I promise you when we get there we will know, perhaps we will even be able to go back and see it all happen before our very eyes not just once but many times over, isn't that a better hope for us than waiting for a cold hole in the ground? because ultimately that's all that "the theory of evolution" can promise you. Quit being a "doubting Thomas" just believe the Word and let the Spirit lead you into all truth that's relevant for us to live by with our little brains, and trust God for the truth that's too big for us to try to even begin to comprehend right now, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you continue in that path and your head will explode for sure. :lol:

Sam Fisher
Jan 4th 2008, 09:55 PM
Thanks again, Dan.
As usual, an eloquent and beautiful post.

I am not looking to science for salvation. I am not looking to science for redemption, or forgiveness, or anything only Jesus can offer.

As I mentioned in my original post, my work requires me to be fairly well versed in mathematics, physics, and detailed fault analysis. Up to a while back, I kinda compartmentalised my faith and my job. Somewhere along the line, one crossed into the realm of the other.

Because of my background, I was able to discern some small anomalies in some of the things I thought I knew and understood. And like a scab on a wound, it worried me, itched and scratched and drove me to distraction until I could find a way to solve the riddle. Just as I feared in my second or third post, the Bible and objective reality do not match, and the more I scratched, the more the Old Testament became like a badly stacked house of cards with one section collapsing and bringing the next part down with it.

I'm not going to write what parts I found false - If I did, this post will go on and on. I've already alluded to several inconsistencies and absurdities previously, and I know I'll be wasting my time adding more.
I bid you all a fond farewell, and may 2008 and beyond bring you all your hopes and dreams!

-Sam

FallingWaters
Jan 6th 2008, 07:42 PM
...
The point is: where and how did it all begin????
...I love what R. C. Sproul said:
"If there ever was a time when there was nothing, there would still be nothing now."

DanDMan64
Jan 7th 2008, 05:03 PM
...I'm not going to write what parts I found false - If I did, this post will go on and on. I've already alluded to several inconsistencies and absurdities previously, and I know I'll be wasting my time adding more.
I bid you all a fond farewell, and may 2008 and beyond bring you all your hopes and dreams!...Hey Sammy, does this mean you plan to drop this thread then, perhaps because you believe it's not getting anywhere? or perhaps because you don't think I and the others responding to you are ever going to "get it"?

Well, I don't know what you were expecting, but we can only respond to what you tell us, and since you didn't want to get specific you prevented us from giving you specific answers, though it sounds you weren't really looking for answers, but just for someone to pat you in the back and tell you how great it is that your faith has been shaken by what you perceive as reality, and how great it is that we now know enough to doubt God and His word, which we could never do because regardless of how dumb you might think we are, we know better.

I pray the Holy Spirit will never give-up tugging at your heart and point you in the right direction, though you seem to have given-up on Him already, because his road-map doesn't make any sense to you. You say you understand that science can not save you, but it can steal your salvation if you let it, which is exactly what you're doing by not allowing God to show you how HE IS THE SOURCE OF ALL KNOWLEDGE, you think the key to finding the truth is to leave the impossible out of the equation, and that's how you've been fooled into believing that everything has to be explainable, and until you're willing to accept that there is a powerful God that can do miracles, and that there really is nothing that is impossible with God, there's really very little else we can help you with.

I'll keep praying for you, that God will manifest Himself in your life in such a real and personal way, that you'll no longer have any reason to doubt Him or His word, which is not "a stack of cards" as you have been led to believe, but a strong and mighty fortress that can not be moved. :pray:

P.S. I'm no scientist, but if perhaps you'd give me a chance to tackle one of those "falsehoods" you've found, perhaps we both and others might learn something, I just ask you try to keep it simple as you're speaking to a lay man. :hmm:

tango
Jan 7th 2008, 10:07 PM
Thanks again, Dan.
As usual, an eloquent and beautiful post.

I am not looking to science for salvation. I am not looking to science for redemption, or forgiveness, or anything only Jesus can offer.

As I mentioned in my original post, my work requires me to be fairly well versed in mathematics, physics, and detailed fault analysis. Up to a while back, I kinda compartmentalised my faith and my job. Somewhere along the line, one crossed into the realm of the other.

Because of my background, I was able to discern some small anomalies in some of the things I thought I knew and understood. And like a scab on a wound, it worried me, itched and scratched and drove me to distraction until I could find a way to solve the riddle. Just as I feared in my second or third post, the Bible and objective reality do not match, and the more I scratched, the more the Old Testament became like a badly stacked house of cards with one section collapsing and bringing the next part down with it.

I'm not going to write what parts I found false - If I did, this post will go on and on. I've already alluded to several inconsistencies and absurdities previously, and I know I'll be wasting my time adding more.
I bid you all a fond farewell, and may 2008 and beyond bring you all your hopes and dreams!

-Sam

Don't give up Sam, I've missed out on 16 years worth of blessings because I thought I knew better and followed my own path. Coming back to God after so long actively fighting against him took an awful lot of soul-searching and a huge dose of humility in admitting I'd basically mucked everything up for so long.

Realising you've lived most of your life chasing a lie really doesn't make you feel great about yourself. Talk to God and pray for wisdom to understand things better. I'm sure I won't be the only one praying for you.

Saved!
Jan 7th 2008, 11:06 PM
Stick with me for a moment:

My husband had planted a little garden of "greens" in the middle of the woods to attract deer. After a few weeks the greens should have been a foot tall...but they were all just mere inches tall. Because of the weather deer tracks, if any, were always washed away when he was able to get out there to look at his garden...so my husband was unable to tell if the greens were being eaten down by deer or simply not growing.

Anyway, I picked my brain trying to think of a way for him to find out. I thought about having the soil tested, having an agriculture specialist come take a look....I wondered if the trees let in enough light. I thought about having a video camera set up...you name it.

I am college educated and many folks "think" I am smart. My husband has a GED...while I have book sense, he has the common sense-the sense I believe is the most valuable.

Anyway, He bought a little bit of wire fencing...made a little circle of it and temporarily installed it in the middle of the garden. A few weeks later we went back and the garden still had little short greens and the fenced in area had foot tall, lush greens.

With a few dollars worth of materials and a few minutes work my husband had his answer. Boy did I feel dumb.

What I am getting at is this: book learning and "higher" intelligence don't always result in an answer to the question at hand.


Remember those 3D pictures from the 90s....if you tried too hard to look at the picture to find the image you never could, you had to relax and unfocus and the image would jump right up...clear and obvious? The image still existed...but it would have been hard to convince the person that looked too hard that there was anything really there.

Relax Sammy and look at nature and creation with your heart and soul...relax..and let God reveal Himself to you.

FallingWaters
Jan 8th 2008, 03:04 PM
...
I am college educated and many folks "think" I am smart. My husband has a GED...while I have book sense, he has the common sense-the sense I believe is the most valuable.
...
With a few dollars worth of materials and a few minutes work my husband had his answer. Boy did I feel dumb.
...I have a husband like that, too! :)