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David Taylor
Dec 13th 2007, 09:41 PM
This topic spawned from a discussion ThirdHero and I were having last week, and how one differentiates the Olivet Discourse from either a historical view, or a futuristic view....or both.

My post, is just the scriptures. No commentary, other than my use of colors to denote which question is being asked and answered.
Question/Answer 1: involves the leveling of the Herod's Temple and the Destruction of Jerusalem 1st Century A.D.
.

Question/Answer 2: involves the future endtime Return of Christ on the Last Day, 2007++ A.D.Now to the Scriptures themselves.



Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? andwhat shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Matthew 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand;
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Matthew 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Matthew 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Matthew 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Matthew 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Matthew 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.




Conclusion:
Two Questions and Two Answers about two different events (one in 1st Century A.D., and one in the future Last Day 2007++ A.D.), all described in the Olivet Discourse.

third hero
Dec 13th 2007, 09:49 PM
Great post there David. It is exactly as Eric wrote to me and said.

However, I have one question to ask, and I'll preface this by saying:

For me, the single event that alerts me to the likelihood that the Lord is about to return is the Great Tribulation. And the signal, to me, that the Great Tribulation has come is the Abomination that causes desolation.

According to your post, the Abomination that causes desolation is a past event, due to the fact that Titus desolated the Temple by offering a pig on the altar before they tore it down.

So, let's assume that I am wrong, and the abomination that causes desolation is a past event, what then would be the monicker that we all can point to that alerts us that the Great tribulation is upon us?

And one more question.

If what is recorded in 2 Thes 2:3-4 is not the Abomination that causes Desolation, then what is it, IYHO? Is this the sign? And if it is, then where is this Temple of God? Is it the human heart, or a great Cathedral of some sort where believers gather?

David Taylor
Dec 13th 2007, 10:15 PM
Great post there David. It is exactly as Eric wrote to me and said.

However, I have one question to ask, and I'll preface this by saying:

For me, the single event that alerts me to the likelihood that the Lord is about to return is the Great Tribulation. And the signal, to me, that the Great Tribulation has come is the Abomination that causes desolation.

According to your post, the Abomination that causes desolation is a past event, due to the fact that Titus desolated the Temple by offering a pig on the altar before they tore it down.

So, let's assume that I am wrong, and the abomination that causes desolation is a past event, what then would be the monicker that we all can point to that alerts us that the Great tribulation is upon us?


Quoting just from those future verses in red:
wars and rumours of wars
nation shall rise against nation, and

kingdom against kingdom: and

there shall be famines, and

pestilences, and

earthquakes, in divers places
hey deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you
then shall many be offended, and

shall betray one another, and

shall hate one another
iniquity shall abound,

the love of many shall wax cold
this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
then shall be great tribulation,

such as was not since the beginning of the world** to this time, no, nor ever shall be
except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved
false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders
the sun be darkened, and

the moon shall not give her light, and

the stars shall fall from heaven, and

the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
the sea and the waves roaring(**Meaning greater that Noahs' Flood to me)


Now we could get other clues and monickers from the other writers, outside of the Olivet Discourse....but these seem pretty emphatic to me....especially the ones highlighted above, that I think we would recognize....and/or couldn't have occured in the 1st century.






And one more question.

If what is recorded in 2 Thes 2:3-4 is not the Abomination that causes Desolation, then what is it, IYHO? Is this the sign? And if it is, then where is this Temple of God? Is it the human heart, or a great Cathedral of some sort where believers gather?

I believe it is pointing to the time of the great apostacy, when Satan has been released for a little season, and is allowed to deceive the gentiles again so that most of the world falls away into rebellion.

The church of that time, which was once God's temple, will be replaced with a false church with Satan as its head, a false temple; pretending to be the true one...

Look at how the Episcopal church has fallen so much in just a short time towards evil...that is just a starting example. Most all church groups, are stepping futher and further away from the truth and from Christ, and embracing the things of the world. Satan...taking a foothold in the temple....declaring himself god.

Just a thought....one I believe is more viable than a rebuilt stone building desecration.



Let's not Derail the thread into 2 Thess 2 Doug, start another thread on that if you need to. This one is the Olivet Discourse and its two questions.

jeffweeder
Dec 14th 2007, 12:12 AM
The first question is answered by Rome, when they destroyed the temple and dispersed the Jews.
The abomination of desolation to luke is expressed-- "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies".



"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled

Jesus prophecied that these were now the days of vengeance, and the Jews would be scattered...until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


The days of vengeance is the same as the great trib and began with them being exiled.


because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Is the great tribulation about the Jews being scattered and suffering in the nations.?
Its been a horrific 2000 years for both Jew and Christian.

Jesus said the times of the Gentiles trampling on Jerusalem would be fulfilled.

This is a major sign of his coming.


and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

He then recites the parable of the fig tree.

"So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
32 "Truly I say to you, this generation[20][Or race ] will not pass away until all things take place.
33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Allegra
Dec 14th 2007, 02:06 AM
This topic spawned from a discussion ThirdHero and I were having last week, and how one differentiates the Olivet Discourse from either a historical view, or a futuristic view....or both.

My post, is just the scriptures. No commentary, other than my use of colors to denote which question is being asked and answered.
Question/Answer 1: involves the leveling of the Herod's Temple and the Destruction of Jerusalem 1st Century A.D.
.

Question/Answer 2: involves the future endtime Return of Christ on the Last Day, 2007++ A.D.Now to the Scriptures themselves.



Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? andwhat shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Matthew 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand;
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Matthew 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Matthew 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Matthew 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Matthew 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Matthew 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.




Conclusion:
Two Questions and Two Answers about two different events (one in 1st Century A.D., and one in the future Last Day 2007++ A.D.), all described in the Olivet Discourse.
Hello DavidTaylor & co.,
So are you still looking for possible explanations for the verses you highlighted? Because I believe all of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the time leading up to the end in AD70.
Or is that the end of the matter in your posts?

jeffweeder
Dec 14th 2007, 02:19 AM
Because I believe all of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the time leading up to the end in AD70.

So when did the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled over Jerusalem..what date can you put on that.?

The times of the Gentiles started 70 AD when the jew was exiled.
I would think those times will be fulfilled when the opposite happens, and they reclaim it.

Allegra
Dec 14th 2007, 02:39 AM
So when did the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled over Jerusalem..what date can you put on that.?

The times of the Gentiles started 70 AD when the jew was exiled.
I would think those times will be fulfilled when the opposite happens, and they reclaim it.

The "Times of the Gentiles" begins in the times of Daniel.
It begins with Nebuchadnezzar. (The carnage of Jerusalem)
Dan 2:36- Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold. "It is you O king Nebuchadnezzar!"
"You O king are the king of kings, the God of heaven has given to you the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory." God had given him all power to rule.
It was to end with the Gentile nation of Rome, when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD70 (Luke 21:20-24)

jeffweeder
Dec 14th 2007, 03:06 AM
The "Times of the Gentiles" begins in the times of Daniel.


Well in a way, but this is not what Jesus was refering to..........He is answering 1 of 2 questions about the temple being torn down, or his coming again.


because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.



He connects the tearing down of the temple, with the exile of the Jews to all nations, not just babylon. This is the starting point of the times of gentiles over Jerusalem.

How can one interpret that the times of the gentiles would be fulfilled?
I am just suggesting that they are fulfilled when the Jews reclaim it and bring an end to gentile rule.

Joels prophecy comes into play, as Peter has already quoted Joel as being in the process of fulfillment.



The Promise of the Spirit

28 "It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.

29 "Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 "The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

"For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.

Allegra
Dec 14th 2007, 05:13 AM
in a way, but this is not what Jesus was refering to..........He is answering 1 of 2 questions about the temple being torn down, or his coming again.Well, He knows the beginning from the end.
This may be a long term prophecy, but I lean more towards the shorter term. "Gentiles" were the Romans at this time. "And they will fall by the sword, and be led away captive to all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
See, during the destruction of Jerusalem, the survivors were taken away and sold as slaves. And Rev. 11:2 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
Also, I don't consider Muslims "Gentiles"
In fact, in this use of gentiles, it should denote "pagan gentiles"


How can one interpret that the times of the gentiles would be fulfilled?
I am just suggesting that they are fulfilled when the Jews reclaim it and bring an end to gentile rule.Maybe. But it still doesn't imply "rulership" It implies trampling down.
Joels prophecy comes into play, as Peter has already quoted Joel as being in the process of fulfillment.[/quote]
Quote:
The Promise of the Spirit

28 "It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.

29 "Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 "The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the LORD has said,
Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

"For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.
Well, you didn't give the verses where Peter quoted Joel. but anyway, this already occurred! The remnant is spoken about here.

losthorizon
Dec 15th 2007, 04:55 AM
...My post, is just the scriptures. No commentary, other than my use of colors to denote which question is being asked and answered.
Question/Answer 1: involves the leveling of the Herod's Temple and the Destruction of Jerusalem 1st Century A.D.
.

Question/Answer 2: involves the future endtime Return of Christ on the Last Day, 2007++ A.D.Now to the Scriptures themselves.

David – regarding the "Olivet Discourse" (Matt 24: 1-36) I would agree with you that two seperate questions were asked of the Lord that day, (1) Tell us, when shall these things be? And (2) What shall be the sign of the end of the world? I think the answer to question #2 is addressed only in verses 35 and 36.

Question #1 pertained to the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem during the Jewish-Roman War (AD 66–73). Jesus answered that question in verses 4-34 with the preface that the generation He was speaking to that day “shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished”. Question #2 is related to His second coming and He answered that question in verses 35 and 36,
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.The point Jesus is making is that no sign would be given regarding the end of time. Why – because “of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only”, i.e., the seconding coming would come without any sign – even the Lord and the “angels of heaven” did not know the day or the hour of that Day. Jesus warned that His second coming would be “as a thief in the night” - without warning,
“If the master of the house had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken through. Therefore be ye also ready; for in an hour that ye think not the Son of man cometh… but of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only”.

matthew94
Dec 15th 2007, 05:04 PM
In my opinion Mark & Luke record only a question about the 1st century destruction of the temple. You have to read 'The 2nd Coming' into their question, it's not actually there.


Mark 13
1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"

There is absolutely ZERO in that conversation that should make one think of The 2nd Coming. The Disciples weren't even fully grasping that Jesus was leaving yet, Him coming again was simply not on their radar. They were asking about the temple that they were looking at, and nothing more. Same with Luke.

Of course, Matthew records the question a little differently. If it weren't for Matthew, I doubt very many people at all would interpret portions of Mark & Luke's 'Olivet Discourse' in a futuristic way. Nevertheless, Matthew exists and should be looked at closely:


Matthew
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

Everything up until the very last line is the same 1st century context as Mark & Luke. Matthew alone mentions the word 'coming.' Matthew alone mentions the 'end of the age/world.'

The first thing that needs to be addressed is whether 'age' or 'world' is correct. Most scholars agree that 'age' is the proper translation. So, Matthew could be talking about the end of the Jewish Age (which fits the 1st century context) or the end of the world's age (which would be an addition in Matthew not present in Mark or Luke).

The second issue is the word 'coming.' Why did Matthew use it when Mark & Luke did not and does IT refer to the 2nd Coming? I don't know that we can answer question #1 without interviewing Matthew himself. But question #2 is worthy of debate. Certainly the word 'Coming' NEED not refer to "The 2nd Coming." A 'coming' in Scripture can and often does refer to a non-bodily judgment, or spiritual presence of some kind.

So, on a textual level, Matthew's version of the 2 questions may still be all about the 1st century. It would be paraphrased as follows: "And what signs will accompany the Judgment when the 2nd Temple Era is about to end?"

So, I think we have 2 valid options here.
1) It's all about the 1st century, but Matthew's wording has confused some people b/c we use the word 'coming' differently and the KJV translated 'age' as 'world'
2) Matthew, unlike Mark & Luke, combined the Olivet Discourse with another discourse that Jesus gave which was about the 2nd Coming. Since the events (the end of the Jewish Age and the end of the known world) are both Apocalyptic events, the language used to describe both are very similar.

Personally, I favor view #2. In my research of Matthew, I find that he often groups Jesus' teachings together. He grouped a whole bunch of parables together in chapter 13, for instance. In Matthew 24-25, I think he grouped 2 separate discourses together b/c they were both apocalyptic in nature. I think a lot of the verses in Matthew's discourse can be said to be true of both events, but that 1-34 is primarily and perhaps only about the destruction of the 1st Century temple. What comes after that may apply to both the non-bodily coming in judgment in AD70 and the bodily 2nd Coming at the end of the world. He was telling them the former would occur in their generation, but, of the latter, no man knows when.

Allegra
Dec 15th 2007, 06:31 PM
Holy moly Matthew94!

What Bible version are you using?
In fact, in the KJV, the NKJV, even the NIV has it different than yours.

Matthew 24:3 (King James Version)

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Matthew 24:3 (New King James Version)

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Matthew 24:3 (New International Version)




3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"



There are 3 questions asked here, plain as day.
1. When shall these things be?-had reference to the approaching destruction of the temple in the previous 2 verses.
2.What shall be the sign of thy coming and

3.the end of the age?

There are erroneous & misleading conceptions of the phrase "end of the world" (age)

English readers of the N.T. may suppose that is means the destruction of the material earth; but shouldn't hold weight to those who are of learning.
The true significance of the word (in Greek) is not world, but age-similar to the Latin (a period of time):thus, "the end of the age" written in Greek, means the close of the epoch or age,- that is the Jewish age, or dispensation which was drawing near, as our Lord frequently intimated.



All those passages which speak of 'the end' (Greek words), 'the end of the age,' or, the ends of the ages'(Greek words), refer to the same consummation, & always as nigh(near) at hand.
1Cor.10:11- St. Paul says:"The ends of the ages have stretched out to us;" - implying that he regarded himself & his readers as living near the conclusion of an aeon, or age.

I'm really not interested when it comes to the apostolic fathers of the church. (Early 2nd century)These were only apologists against Jewish claims of Eschatological events being unfulfilled, using Apologetics, saying the Soteriology(redemptive events) were fulfilled.
By the mid- 2nd century, church fathers subtly shifted away from the idea of extreme imminence, to the idea of a still imminent(but slightly delayed) fulfillment. But as that delay idea was repeatedly taught for centuries, it caught on so well that today the Church can think of nothing but delay!

Food for thought, yes?

In His Service,
ALLEGRA.

matthew94
Dec 15th 2007, 10:16 PM
Holy moly Matthew94!

What Bible version are you using?
In fact, in the KJV, the NKJV, even the NIV has it different than yours.

I think you are confused. My quote was from the NIV. You may have been reading the quote of Mark's parallel account, which does read differently and thinking that was my translations version of Matthew 24:3?


There are 3 questions asked here, plain as day.
1. When shall these things be?-had reference to the approaching destruction of the temple in the previous 2 verses.
2.What shall be the sign of thy coming and
3.the end of the age?

Well, you can separate 2 & 3 if you want. But they need not be separated. 2 & 3 are obviously asking about the same event (the Coming and the end of the Age happen at the same time).


There are erroneous & misleading conceptions of the phrase "end of the world" (age)

English readers of the N.T. may suppose that is means the destruction of the material earth; but shouldn't hold weight to those who are of learning.
The true significance of the word (in Greek) is not world, but age-similar to the Latin (a period of time):thus, "the end of the age" written in Greek, means the close of the epoch or age,- that is the Jewish age, or dispensation which was drawing near, as our Lord frequently intimated.

That's exactly what I said.

I am confused as to whether the rest of your post was a response to me or in general. In any case...

In Christ,
matthew

brakelite
Dec 15th 2007, 11:03 PM
Hi David. It is my understanding that the disciples considered the second coming and the destruction of the temple as one and the same event.
To them, the temple was everything. They could not imagine a world without it. To the disciples the destruction of the temple was the end of the world.
That is why they asked "when shall these things be(the destruction of the temple) and what shall be the sign of thy coming".
They expected them to be concurrent events.
Jesus then described the different signs. The abomination of desolation (Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem)as a sign of the end of the temple, and teh other signs revealing the nearness of His coming.

He perfectly described a series of events beginning from His time til our day.

Math 24:1-3 Beginning of Christian church.
vs 4...wars, deception, bloodshed. An accurate portrayel of the historical scenes of the first 3 centuries.
vs 11...Apostacy- development into the papacy-(the falling away of 2 Thess).
vs 21...Trribulation- Papal persecutions -death of millions of of martys
vs22...Tribulation cut short by the preaching of the truth during the reformation
vs 29...signs at end of tribulation
vs 30-31..second coming

Interestingly, the same sequence of events is shown elsewhere in the 7 seals, Daniel 11, and the 7 letters to the churches of Rev 2,3.

Such a historicist viewpoint in todays climate of 'left-behind' eschatology is hardly mainstream, but I believe is more scripurally consistent. What's more, it's the view all the reformers took.
Brakelite

Allegra
Dec 16th 2007, 01:25 AM
In my opinion Mark & Luke record only a question about the 1st century destruction of the temple. You have to read 'The 2nd Coming' into their question, it's not actually there.



There is absolutely ZERO in that conversation that should make one think of The 2nd Coming. The Disciples weren't even fully grasping that Jesus was leaving yet, Him coming again was simply not on their radar. They were asking about the temple that they were looking at, and nothing more. Same with Luke.

Of course, Matthew records the question a little differently. If it weren't for Matthew, I doubt very many people at all would interpret portions of Mark & Luke's 'Olivet Discourse' in a futuristic way. Nevertheless, Matthew exists and should be looked at closely:



Everything up until the very last line is the same 1st century context as Mark & Luke. Matthew alone mentions the word 'coming.' Matthew alone mentions the 'end of the age/world.'

The first thing that needs to be addressed is whether 'age' or 'world' is correct. Most scholars agree that 'age' is the proper translation. So, Matthew could be talking about the end of the Jewish Age (which fits the 1st century context) or the end of the world's age (which would be an addition in Matthew not present in Mark or Luke).

The second issue is the word 'coming.' Why did Matthew use it when Mark & Luke did not and does IT refer to the 2nd Coming? I don't know that we can answer question #1 without interviewing Matthew himself. But question #2 is worthy of debate. Certainly the word 'Coming' NEED not refer to "The 2nd Coming." A 'coming' in Scripture can and often does refer to a non-bodily judgment, or spiritual presence of some kind.

So, on a textual level, Matthew's version of the 2 questions may still be all about the 1st century. It would be paraphrased as follows: "And what signs will accompany the Judgment when the 2nd Temple Era is about to end?"

So, I think we have 2 valid options here.
1) It's all about the 1st century, but Matthew's wording has confused some people b/c we use the word 'coming' differently and the KJV translated 'age' as 'world'
2) Matthew, unlike Mark & Luke, combined the Olivet Discourse with another discourse that Jesus gave which was about the 2nd Coming. Since the events (the end of the Jewish Age and the end of the known world) are both Apocalyptic events, the language used to describe both are very similar.

Personally, I favor view #2. In my research of Matthew, I find that he often groups Jesus' teachings together. He grouped a whole bunch of parables together in chapter 13, for instance. In Matthew 24-25, I think he grouped 2 separate discourses together b/c they were both apocalyptic in nature. I think a lot of the verses in Matthew's discourse can be said to be true of both events, but that 1-34 is primarily and perhaps only about the destruction of the 1st Century temple. What comes after that may apply to both the non-bodily coming in judgment in AD70 and the bodily 2nd Coming at the end of the world. He was telling them the former would occur in their generation, but, of the latter, no man knows when.
I apologize Matthew94, I did misunderstand what you wrote.:confused
And yes, questions 2+3 do link together.
In fact they all link together. Wouldn't you agree?
In addition, all of Olivet Discourse paralleled in Matthew, Mark, & Luke, all continue with Jesus answering all those questions anyway.
All of Matthew(I say Matthew bc his is the most extensive version) from Chapter 24 right to the end of chapter 25 is all related to the big 3 events.
Do you agree with me regarding CH. 24-25?

And yes, that's true, I wrote the Greek definition for the "world"
& the comment about Bible versions for info in general.
I'm sorry if you already commented on that too.:wave:

Oh, I see what the problem is by your very last sentence. That's where we disagree.

matthew94
Dec 16th 2007, 03:23 AM
We are pretty close. Of the views I listed before, you favor view 1 and I favor view 2. But a lot of people don't even recognize that those are the 2 strongest views! We agree that at least most of the discourse refers to AD70. Where we differ is that I am open to the idea that Matthew combined a 2nd Discourse to his version of the Olivet Discourse and that this 2nd Discourse does touch on the yet future 2nd Coming. But, if i remember right, you are at least very close to being a full preterist, so it's no surprise that you'd dismiss that view.

third hero
Dec 19th 2007, 05:25 AM
Quoting just from those future verses in red:

wars and rumours of wars
nation shall rise against nation, and
kingdom against kingdom: and
there shall be famines, and
pestilences, and
earthquakes, in divers places
hey deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you
then shall many be offended, and
shall betray one another, and
shall hate one another
iniquity shall abound,
the love of many shall wax cold
this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning of the world** to this time, no, nor ever shall be
except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved
false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders
the sun be darkened, and
the moon shall not give her light, and
the stars shall fall from heaven, and
the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
the sea and the waves roaring(**Meaning greater that Noahs' Flood to me)


Now we could get other clues and monickers from the other writers, outside of the Olivet Discourse....but these seem pretty emphatic to me....especially the ones highlighted above, that I think we would recognize....and/or couldn't have occured in the 1st century.

I can agree with you, but the only point of contention is the Abomination. Truthfully, I have to rcognize the possibility of the abomination happening at around 70AD. I do not agree with it, but it is plausible. An abomination did happen, which is the offering of a pig on the altar and having a statue of Zeus inside of the temple. That did happen, and that is an abomination that truly caused a desolation. Israel was dispersed for close to 1900 years due to that act. To ignore this obvious piece of history is to ignore truth. I do not equate this to being the "Abomination that precedes the Great Tribulation", but I do recognize that you do not include the abomination as a prerequesite to the Great Tribulation. I can respect that.




I believe it is pointing to the time of the great apostacy, when Satan has been released for a little season, and is allowed to deceive the gentiles again so that most of the world falls away into rebellion.

The church of that time, which was once God's temple, will be replaced with a false church with Satan as its head, a false temple; pretending to be the true one...

Look at how the Episcopal church has fallen so much in just a short time towards evil...that is just a starting example. Most all church groups, are stepping futher and further away from the truth and from Christ, and embracing the things of the world. Satan...taking a foothold in the temple....declaring himself god.

Just a thought....one I believe is more viable than a rebuilt stone building desecration.



I understand your position on Matthew 24. According to what you have presented, ther would be no need for a temple. However, I must respectfully disagree, mainly because after the inhabitants of "Judah" head for the hills, a period of great suffering is to occur, that which would be unequaled in human history, and never to be repeated. I do see a sequence there, where you do not.

But then again, I believe that you had already known that this was going to be about you and I understanding each other's perspective, and giving the proper respect to them. I respect your position, and I can understand what brought you to your conclusion. However, becasue I see a sequence that includes the abomination, I can not totally agree. But to argue the point from here is only to compare perspectives, and that is not going to resolve anything.

With that said, I hope that the people who are reading this thread, as well as the others, who have had questions concerning Amillennialism versus Premillennialism willl have this to look at, and at least know who to talk to about answering questions that they have.

David, you have enlightened me on what I believe is now the true Amillennialism. All others will be compared to what you have said, because I believe that if I were to believe in Amillennialism, it would match yours, because yours have the most scriptural support. thank you for sharing what you believe with me. I truly appreciate what you have written. It was well written and easily understood, and I find that my beliefs are not very different from yours. Even though we do not see eye to eye on the abomination versus the apostacy, our conclusions yet remain the same. Thank you for highlighting that in this and other threads.

IBWatching
Dec 19th 2007, 06:13 PM
Hi David. It is my understanding that the disciples considered the second coming and the destruction of the temple as one and the same event.
To them, the temple was everything. They could not imagine a world without it. To the disciples the destruction of the temple was the end of the world.
That is why they asked "when shall these things be(the destruction of the temple) and what shall be the sign of thy coming".
They expected them to be concurrent events.
Jesus then described the different signs. The abomination of desolation (Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem)as a sign of the end of the temple, and teh other signs revealing the nearness of His coming.

He perfectly described a series of events beginning from His time til our day.

Math 24:1-3 Beginning of Christian church.
vs 4...wars, deception, bloodshed. An accurate portrayel of the historical scenes of the first 3 centuries.
vs 11...Apostacy- development into the papacy-(the falling away of 2 Thess).
vs 21...Trribulation- Papal persecutions -death of millions of of martys
vs22...Tribulation cut short by the preaching of the truth during the reformation
vs 29...signs at end of tribulation
vs 30-31..second coming

Interestingly, the same sequence of events is shown elsewhere in the 7 seals, Daniel 11, and the 7 letters to the churches of Rev 2,3.

Such a historicist viewpoint in todays climate of 'left-behind' eschatology is hardly mainstream, but I believe is more scripurally consistent. What's more, it's the view all the reformers took.
Brakelite

Interesting post. And I might agree with you on some points. But all of the post in this thread (yes, I realize it is about the Olivet Discourse) ignore the question the disciples asked Jesus right before He Ascended to the Father. Which was, "Is it now that you are going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

There are some inescapable truths in this question and how Jesus responded to it:

1. They expected Jesus to restore the kingdom to Israel, yet He had told them He had to leave.

2. The kingdom they expected Him to restore was a literal physical kingdom, as it was the only kind Israel had ever known.

3. Jesus didn't tell them there would be no restoration. In fact, just a short while later, once Peter received the Holy Spirit, the Comforter revealed to him that Jesus would return and restore it then (Acts 3:21). The Spirit had already revealed to Peter that Jesus would be the descendant of David who would sit on that throne (Acts 2:29-36).

Jesus always spoke the Truth. But He told His disciples that He didn't tell them everything (especially things pertaining to the future Church of Jesus Christ). He told them the Spirit would do that:


John 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear {them} now. 13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

If Jesus had already told them everything in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, then what did He mean here? Many people holding various end times' positions like to tie Matthew 24 into a neat little bundle where they can explain everything. Jesus said that in itself isn't the whole story. You need the rest of Scripture, especially that which was written to the Church, in order to get the right picture.

third hero
Dec 19th 2007, 06:32 PM
Interesting post. And I might agree with you on some points. But all of the post in this thread (yes, I realize it is about the Olivet Discourse) ignore the question the disciples asked Jesus right before He Ascended to the Father. Which was, "Is it now that you are going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

There are some inescapable truths in this question and how Jesus responded to it:

1. They expected Jesus to restore the kingdom to Israel, yet He had told them He had to leave.

2. The kingdom they expected Him to restore was a literal physical kingdom, as it was the only kind Israel had ever known.

3. Jesus didn't tell them there would be no restoration. In fact, just a short while later, once Peter received the Holy Spirit, the Comforter revealed to him that Jesus would return and restore it then (Acts 3:21). The Spirit had already revealed to Peter that Jesus would be the descendant of David who would sit on that throne (Acts 2:29-36).

Jesus always spoke the Truth. But He told His disciples that He didn't tell them everything (especially things pertaining to the future Church of Jesus Christ). He told them the Spirit would do that:



If Jesus had already told them everything in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, then what did He mean here? Many people holding various end times' positions like to tie Matthew 24 into a neat little bundle where they can explain everything. Jesus said that in itself isn't the whole story. You need the rest of Scripture, especially that which was written to the Church, in order to get the right picture.

I must say, BRAVO! I agree with every syllable in this post. This is why I have started talking with David about his perspective, recognizing that the truth must be found by scouring th entire scriptures, and disciphering the results that one has gained from searching through them. This is why, even though I disagree with some and not much of David Taylor's posts concerning this subject, I can respect his view, and those who holds to his views, because I believe that he has received his revelations from scripture, as I have. We have reached different conclusions, but we have traced those differences to what we perpceive is what happenedeither in the past or in the future.

It is my hope that other believers take their prideful masks off and join in the conversation, knowing that they could be wrong, or right, and that it really does not matter as long as their opinions fall in line with scripture. David and my views both fall within the scriptures, and both of us have gained our understanding from scripture. I believe that there are many more of us in here, liuke cwb, quiet dove, rookie, wpm, john146 and mograce, and I know that there are more in here. We can set that example for all of the church to follow by sheding our prideful masks and join in productive conversations with one another.

As far as right and wrong, none of us have it, because we will not know if Christ will destroy or rule the world until He returns. What truth we do have is that He IS going to return, and that all of us, no matter which discipline we hold to, MUST be prepared, both spiritually and literally. As long as we have that in mind, the arguing should stop. We may not all agree, but by talking with one another, we can understand one another, and that understanding can lead to the unity that Christ wanted even before His Death.

IBWatching
Dec 19th 2007, 09:19 PM
...As far as right and wrong, none of us have it, because we will not know if Christ will destroy or rule the world until He returns. What truth we do have is that He IS going to return, and that all of us, no matter which discipline we hold to, MUST be prepared, both spiritually and literally. As long as we have that in mind, the arguing should stop. We may not all agree, but by talking with one another, we can understand one another, and that understanding can lead to the unity that Christ wanted even before His Death.

Yes, I agree. Orderly discussion of end times issues is OK. Arguing is not. :)

brakelite
Dec 20th 2007, 09:22 PM
I concur with your sentiments. Certainly Jesus did not reveal everything to the disciples; they would not have been able to bear it at that time. Even during the following church age not all was revealed. As the angel said to Daniel, 'shut up the scripture until the time of the end.'
That time however is now. There is no reason that there should not be a full understanding of prophecy for those willing to study and accept without bias that which is revealed.
Starting from Daniel 2, each subsequent prophecy fills in the gaps and broadens the picture. But it is always the same piicture. Math 24 does not contain all the details, but when added to other prophecies covering the same events and time periods then a full picture is revealed and understanding dawns.
As to Third Hero's assertion that we will not know whether Jesus will destroy the earth or rule upon it until He comes, why not?Jesus Himself said through Amos that " Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
(Am 3:7)."
My own study shows me that Jesus will neither rule upon the earth or destroy it. The righteous are taken, the wicked are left behind dead, and the earth remains desolate until the end of the thousand years. But hey, maybe we will all be proved wrong and it's something totally different again.
My apologies to David for veering aside from the OP.
Regards
Brakelite.

markedward
Dec 20th 2007, 09:31 PM
Now we could get other clues and monickers from the other writers, outside of the Olivet Discourse....but these seem pretty emphatic to me....especially the ones highlighted above, that I think we would recognize....and/or couldn't have occured in the 1st century.Isn't that a matter of interpretation, though? I, among some others, interpret the darkening-sun, the darkening-moon, the falling-stars, etc., as simply prophetic language of a foreboding judgment, not literal events of stars in heaven crashing down onto the earth or the sun suddenly turning "off."

My reasoning for such an interpretation goes back to passages in numerous OT prophetic books, when similar words ("a day of darkness," "the heavens will roll up like a scroll," etc.) were prophesied over ancient nations such as Egypt, Edom, Babylon, etc. Obviously the stars never "dissolved" when Isaiah 34:4-5 came to pass against Edom, and God "coming on the clouds" can easily be seen as metaphoric for judgment in Isaiah 19's prophecy against Egypt, and the "day of the Lord" was near to Babylon in Isaiah 13. We can easily tell that "the world and all who live in it" did not all actually "tremble" when God passed judgment against Nineveh, as shown in Nahum 1. Even 2 Samuel 22 is filled with imagery of God destroying the earth and shaking the heavens and coming on the clouds when all that actually happened was David was delivered from "the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul."

David Taylor
Dec 20th 2007, 09:57 PM
Isn't that a matter of interpretation, though? I, among some others, interpret the darkening-sun, the darkening-moon, the falling-stars, etc., as simply prophetic language of a foreboding judgment, not literal events of stars in heaven crashing down onto the earth or the sun suddenly turning "off."

My reasoning for such an interpretation goes back to passages in numerous OT prophetic books, when similar words ("a day of darkness," "the heavens will roll up like a scroll," etc.) were prophesied over ancient nations such as Egypt, Edom, Babylon, etc. Obviously the stars never "dissolved" when Isaiah 34:4-5 came to pass against Edom, and God "coming on the clouds" can easily be seen as metaphoric for judgment in Isaiah 19's prophecy against Egypt, and the "day of the Lord" was near to Babylon in Isaiah 13. We can easily tell that "the world and all who live in it" did not all actually "tremble" when God passed judgment against Nineveh, as shown in Nahum 1. Even 2 Samuel 22 is filled with imagery of God destroying the earth and shaking the heavens and coming on the clouds when all that actually happened was David was delivered from "the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul."

I suppose the reason I see a climactic conclusion to this present creation, is because of the many other N.T. passages looking forward to the return of Christ, that show this occurring. Peter compares the conflaguration to that of the great flood...a very literal destruction by water.

I think we can't even imagine what kind of a light-show is going to occur leading up to, and at the climactic moment of His return.

I wouldn't be suprised a bit if all the lights go out....and then the Resplendent Light brighter than a thousand waterfalls, burning pure white as a googalplex of angels Appears.....in unimaginable glory, power, and honor.

markedward
Dec 20th 2007, 10:04 PM
I suppose the reason I see a climactic conclusion to this present creation, is because of the many other N.T. passages looking forward to the return of Christ, that show this occurring.Well, reading carefully, they did look forward to the return of Christ as happening in their own time...

brakelite
Dec 23rd 2007, 07:00 AM
Quote: Jesus didn't tell them there would be no restoration. In fact, just a short while later, once Peter received the Holy Spirit, the Comforter revealed to him that Jesus would return and restore it then (Acts 3:21).

The kingdom of God will in the end certainly be restored. But to Israel? Not the nation, as their house was left unto them desolate. As a nation, Israel has no further claim to the kingdom. As individuals, all Jews still have an opportunity to accept Jesus as their Messiah. The kingdom will be given to those bearing fruit for the King. In Peter's letter he said that the church is a "chosen generation,a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people." We are Israel and will be the recipients of the kingdom upon Christ's return.
Regards
Brakelite

brakelite
Dec 23rd 2007, 07:14 AM
Hi Dave. So glad you linked Math 24 and 25. The parables in c25 can only be understood as we consider them as end-time events. They give much information regarding the order of events and the scenes that are just ahead of us.
But more importantly is the warning given in each one as to our spiritual state when Jesus returns.
The first patrable deals with our need of the Holy Spirit. The second of our need to use whatever talents, skills, and resources we ahve at our disposal for the benefit of the kingdom and the gospel. The third deals with our need of displaying and exercising the fruit of the Spirit in love. All three are an example of faith and works combining to produce a child fit for the kingdom.

Regards
Brakelite.

SurfsUp
Dec 29th 2007, 01:38 AM
People often read Matt 24 & Luke 21 & assume it's the exact same speech to the exact same crowd -- fact is it's not -- the 2 took place @ different places & times

Luke does speak to the destruction of Jerusalem whereas Matt (& Mark) do not

Matt (& Mark) speak to the future events regarding the 3rd temple whereas Luke does not

Realizing this takes a good deal of confusion away from the topic

jeffweeder
Dec 29th 2007, 03:00 AM
I think you will find its the same discourse as the topic and qu are the same.



luke 21
And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said,
"As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."
They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them.
9 "When you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately."

Things to Come
Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,
11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
"But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.
"It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.
"So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to def for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. "But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death,
and you will be hated by all because of My name.
"Yet not a hair of your head will perish.
"By your endurance you will gain your lives.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognise that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.



MATT 24
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most pople's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

I could have colour coded this more but you get the point that it has to be the same thing.

quiet dove
Dec 29th 2007, 04:14 AM
I think you will find its the same discourse as the topic and qu are the same.

I could have colour coded this more but you get the point that it has to be the same thing.


Well Jeff, it is right purdy. :)

SurfsUp
Dec 29th 2007, 04:21 AM
Y'all need to read more closely -- the conversations take place in 2 different locations, hence they are different

as for the context, they do have similar elements, esp. the opening verses -- where they diverge in Luke is @ Luke 21:12 where the key phrase, "But before all this," -- here Luke goes back in time from the distant to the near future to describe the fall of Jerusalem -- Matt & Mark never describe this

clearly Matt. 24:15 never happened during the Roman assault in 70AD

ya gotta focus on each word to notice the subtlety of the context

jeffweeder
Dec 29th 2007, 04:26 AM
purdy.

Purdy....thats a first for me.
If it means...is it right ..no questions asked, well yes. (Arrogant arent I ,but)

I couldnt imagine the disciples asking Jesus twice as to when the temple would be destroyed, and what would be the signs.
And then to be given 2 diff answers?

jeffweeder
Dec 29th 2007, 04:39 AM
the conversations take place in 2 different locations

I dont understand.
At the beginning of each discourse he is walking away from the temple....for the last time, and his disciples point out how good it all is.

jeffweeder
Dec 29th 2007, 04:50 AM
he begins and ends each particular discourse the same way--the temple being torn down and his coming in glory.

quiet dove
Dec 29th 2007, 04:58 AM
Purdy....thats a first for me.
If it means...is it right ..no questions asked, well yes. (Arrogant arent I ,but)

I couldnt imagine the disciples asking Jesus twice as to when the temple would be destroyed, and what would be the signs.
And then to be given 2 diff answers?


No purdy means pretty with a southern draw. :)

jeffweeder
Dec 29th 2007, 05:06 AM
No purdy means pretty with a southern draw :cry:

So it is right pretty with a southern draw...:cry: :confused

third hero
Dec 30th 2007, 11:13 PM
:cry:

So it is right pretty with a southern draw...:cry: :confused

I recon' y'all neva been down South huh? Purdy is offen said 'round these parts. An' what's a soda anyway? We call all cokes cokes down her' So come on down, an git some suthern hospitality, ya hear?;)

ShirleyFord
Dec 31st 2007, 02:11 AM
I recon' y'all neva been down South huh? Purdy is offen said 'round these parts. An' what's a soda anyway? We call all cokes cokes down her' So come on down, an git some suthern hospitality, ya hear?;)

Hi 3H,

When did you move down here to the South...or are you originally from the South and took a wrong turn and ended up up there?

Yo sho nuff git dat Suthn drawl...:pp


Shirley

John146
Dec 31st 2007, 10:34 PM
I dont understand.
At the beginning of each discourse he is walking away from the temple....for the last time, and his disciples point out how good it all is.

Exactly. There is no way that there were two separate occasions where the disciples commented to Jesus about how great the temple was and then asked Him when it would be destroyed after He says no stone would be left upon another. What, did they forget what He told them the first time? No, it's not even reasonable to think that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are two separate accounts of two different occasions of Jesus speaking to the disciples on the Mount of Olives. They are very clearly parallel accounts of the same speech that Jesus gave.

Acerohombre
Jan 1st 2008, 08:37 PM
I just posted something similar on another thread (I said Sermon on the Mount too instead of Olivet Discourse, oops).

Anyway, please forgive me, I didn't read three pages of posts but I am going to post what I understand from the Bible.

I see three questions:
When will all of this happen?
What will be the sign of thy coming?
When shall be the end of the world?

I have always felt that still, all of these events may all happen at the same time. It has commonly been accepted that all of this happened in 70 ad. However, the argument can be made that the Herod's Temple has not been completely destroyed. The Western Wall of the Temple still exists while Jesus said that there shall not be one stone left standing upon another. It's something to think about.

The signs of His coming appear to be happening around us all the time, wars rumors of wars, etc.

Now, many people have always perceived that there will be a final period of time (7 years) where these events will unfold and thus reveal God, the Kingdom, and Christ. If you read closely in the OD Jesus is again specific as to the timing in that he says "such as the world has never seen NOR EVER SHALL BE" at the end of the world. I firmly believe that it this has not happened.

It is my understanding of the Bible and belief that we live in tribulation much like John. There will come a time of great distress, birth pains upon the earth, great tribulation, and then as Jesus says, the end shall come, a final great tribulation at the time of the Abomination of Desolation that clearly coincides with the events of Revelation, mainly from chapter 13 on.

Mograce2U
Jan 3rd 2008, 04:14 AM
Jesus seems to be referencing Daniel:

(Mat 24:21 KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(Dan 12:1 KJV) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

This is a time of great tribulation for Israel after which no such time will come again upon that nation. Could it be that is because true Israel would be delivered out of it so that no more tribulation COULD come upon her again? The earthly city was destroyed but the heavenly city was lifted up to a place of safety. We be in that city where no tribulation can ever take away our hope in Christ.

(Zec 14:10 KJV) All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

(Zec 14:11 KJV) And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Allegra
Jan 3rd 2008, 05:47 AM
I just posted something similar on another thread (I said Sermon on the Mount too instead of Olivet Discourse, oops).
I have always felt that still, all of these events may all happen at the same time. It has commonly been accepted that all of this happened in 70 ad. However, the argument can be made that the Herod's Temple has not been completely destroyed. The Western Wall of the Temple still exists while Jesus said that there shall not be one stone left standing upon another. It's something to think about.

Actually the western wall was a retaining wall built by Herod the great.
http://www.ctsp.co.il/LBS%20pages/LBS_western_wall.htm

Luke 21:5-6 (KJV)
5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mograce2U
Jan 3rd 2008, 05:38 PM
<snip>
I have always felt that still, all of these events may all happen at the same time. It has commonly been accepted that all of this happened in 70 ad. However, the argument can be made that the Herod's Temple has not been completely destroyed. The Western Wall of the Temple still exists while Jesus said that there shall not be one stone left standing upon another. It's something to think about.
...
Now, many people have always perceived that there will be a final period of time (7 years) where these events will unfold and thus reveal God, the Kingdom, and Christ. If you read closely in the OD Jesus is again specific as to the timing in that he says "such as the world has never seen NOR EVER SHALL BE" at the end of the world. I firmly believe that it this has not happened.Here's the question:
(Isa 5:4-7 KJV) What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? {5} And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: {6} And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. {7} For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

And here is the answer:
(Gal 4:4-5 KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, {5} To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

The life, death and resurrection of Jesus fully reveal the Holy One of God sent to Israel and the kingdom in which He rules. Men need not look for any other.

Israel kisses those ancient stones in vain for even though they hope in a resurrection of a stone temple as displayed in their artwork, the temple made without hands is where the Lord dwells. Yet their hearts are filled with this idol instead. An idol the Lord has long since destroyed, but which they continue to grieve over its loss and reject the remedy sent to them.

(Psa 2:10-12 KJV) Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. {11} Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. {12} Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

What more would you have Him to do for them that He has not already done?

Stefen
Jan 3rd 2008, 06:04 PM
I was scanning this thread and I noticed that some of you are under the impression that Titus sacrificed a pig on the alter in the temple. Correct me if I am wrong but I have read that it was Antioch Epiphanes that sacrificed a pig in the temple, which is why Jewish people celebrate Hanukkah, the rededication of the temple.

If you will research the Roman legions that were under the command of Titus Flavius when they sacked the temple you will find that the majority of the legions where from and developed in Syria, what we call Iraq, and Syria.

Romulus
Jan 7th 2008, 07:01 PM
I can agree with you, but the only point of contention is the Abomination. Truthfully, I have to rcognize the possibility of the abomination happening at around 70AD. I do not agree with it, but it is plausible. An abomination did happen, which is the offering of a pig on the altar and having a statue of Zeus inside of the temple. That did happen, and that is an abomination that truly caused a desolation. Israel was dispersed for close to 1900 years due to that act. To ignore this obvious piece of history is to ignore truth. I do not equate this to being the "Abomination that precedes the Great Tribulation", but I do recognize that you do not include the abomination as a prerequesite to the Great Tribulation. I can respect that.


Hi Third Hero,

Another poster addressed this as well but I wanted to go a little further. Prince Titus never sacrificed a pig on the altar. That was Antiochus Epiphanes in the time before the Maccabean War. Prince Titus did set up the Roman Standards in the temple at the time prior to the temple's destruction but this was well into 70 A.D. and there was no time for anyone to escape. The scriptures were clear that when the sign of the abomination was seen that this was the time to escape to the mountains. Historically this did not happen with Titus entering the temple. The abomination in my opinion occurred just as Luke wrote when "Jerusalem was surrounded by armies". This historically occurred in 67 A.D. when Titus and the roman armies surrounded Jerusalem. For no reason, after they appeared Titus and the Roman armies left Jerusalem for a short time. Those that saw this "abomination" and heeded Jesus's warning then fled to the mountains of Pella which was the last time anyone had a chance to escape. When Titus returned he surrounded Jerusalem and began the 3.5 year or 42 month tribulation against Israel which ended with the temple's destruction.

Does this make sense? Even if you do not agree the preterist view on the abomination, minimally the Titus entrance into the temple cannot be the "abomination that causes desolation" since there was no time to escape after this event which scripture was clear there would be.

God Bless!

third hero
Jan 9th 2008, 02:51 PM
Romulus,
I understand what you are saying. According to your POV, the abomination that causes desolation is the act of the armies of Rome surrounding the city. According to this, the temple would have no part in the determining the abomination.

However, it is my position that the temple is definitely at play here. I agree that the Titus abomination is not the one that caused desolation, mainly for the simple fact that the city was already desolate when he made his way to the temple, and the abomination came as a result of the soldiers being angered at the lack of resistence by the Israelites. Now the pig thing, I thought was one of the things that he did, but I guess my source was mistaken.

My point is that the temple has to part of the whole Abomination that causes desolation thing, mainly because I have equated scriptures that IMHO are connected to the Olivet Discourse, namely 2 Thes 2:3-4. However, that would take this topic into ground that both David and I agreed not to go.

So, using the scriptures at play here, mainly Luke 21 and Matthew 24, it is my opinion that the surrounding of the armies, and the destruction that came with it, is not the abomination that causes desolation. Before I give you my reason for why I am not convinced, I will show you my level of understanding of your position here.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus makes the direct reference back to Daniel 9 when he mentions the abomination that causes desolation. If one believes that LUke 21, where the armies surround the city is the abomination, has legs to stand on, because the people of the ruler who is to come is mentioned in that chapter too. So, in that light, it's plausible.

However, the destruction of the temple and the city was mentioned before the plethora of abominations that would be present, one of which would cause the city to be desolate. This tells me that the destruction of the temple had to happen before the abomination is to happen. In 70AD, the city and the temple was destroyed. The surrounding of the city confirmed that view to me. Even according to you, the Titus event was not the abomination. This leads me to believe that something else has to happen in order for the abomination that causes desolation to be called fulfilled.

Think about it. In Daniel 9:26, the temple and the city are destroyed. If they are gone, then why is verse 27 written as though the city still existed? IMHO, it is because Daniel was too lazy to write that the city would be rebuilt. But Luke, unlike Daniel, made it abundantly clear that even AFTER the armies surround Jerusalem and destroy it, Jerusalem would still exist. On top of that, Luke goes on to say that Jerusalem will be inhabited by the Gentiles for a determined period of time, after Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed.

This leads me to believe that what Luke talked about was, like Matthew referenced, a portion of the seventy weeks prophecy in Daniel 9. It was the destruction of Jerusalem, and the ruling over that city from the point of it's destruction until the Israelites retake it. The portion that is not mentioned in Daniel 9, but assumed to be what happened in between those two verses.

Also, in Luke's version, he is clear in mentioning that Jesus stated that BEFORE all of the signs of the end would come to pass, those things, including the aurrounding of the city by Rome. Luke does not go back into the actual end times signs until after the period of the Gentiles in Jerusalem has ended. And the signs he give are not in any other version of the Olivet discourse. This is the main reason why I still can not accept the thought that the abomination that causes desolation happened back then.

David Taylor
Jan 9th 2008, 03:15 PM
In Matthew 24:15, Jesus makes the direct reference back to Daniel 9 when he mentions the abomination that causes desolation. If one believes that LUke 21, where the armies surround the city is the abomination, has legs to stand on, because the people of the ruler who is to come is mentioned in that chapter too. So, in that light, it's plausible.


Doug,
Not Daniel 9.

Daniel 9 only mentions Messiah the prince coming and causing "the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation"

Daniel 9 doesn't mention anything about 'setting up an abomination that causes desolation'.

Jesus was referring to Daniel 11 and the abomination that Antichious did when he setup a pagan altar within the temple.

Jesus even told us in Matthew 24:15 that the reader would understand. Why? Because that is the same language Daniel used in chapter 11 regarding the abomination of Antichous.

Daniel 11:31 "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days."

Jesus also quoted that last phrase of Daniel 11, referring to Antichous, and applying it to the desolation that the Romans did to the Temple in Luke 21.


Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

Luke 21:20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. "

Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."


Jesus was quoting Daniel 11.....not Daniel 9.

Think about it Doug....compare the scriptures. Find the similarities.

Jesus was saying that the upcoming desecration by the Romans would remind the people of the prior Daniel desecration that Antichous did.

Daniel chapter 9 has nothing to do with these other two passages....it only tells us that Jesus Messiah the Prince will come and remove the abominable sacrifices and offerings and make them desolate forevermore.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2008, 03:29 PM
When shall these things be? Remember there is only one second coming of Christ.

Dan 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And at that time shall Michael stAnd up, the great prince which stAndeth for the children of thy people: And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, And some to shame And everlasting contempt.

Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; And they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

third hero
Jan 9th 2008, 03:46 PM
Jesus was quoting Daniel 11.....not Daniel 9.

Think about it Doug....compare the scriptures. Find the similarities.

Jesus was saying that the upcoming desecration by the Romans would remind the people of the prior Daniel desecration that Antichous did.

Daniel chapter 9 has nothing to do with these other two passages....it only tells us that Jesus Messiah the Prince will come and remove the abominable sacrifices and offerings and make them desolate forevermore.

Actually, David, neither you or I really know which pat of Daniel that Christ is referring to. All we know is that He made a direct reference to Daniel. For all we know, He could have referred to not only dnaiel 9 AND 11, but also chapter 7 as well! Remember, the little horn is mentioned there as well as a person who attacked the saints fro 42 months, which is echoed in Matthew, but not in Luke.

NOw, to the last point, David. I have been looking at the similarities for a long time now. Even the pre-tribbers believe that because there are so many similarities in those scriptures that they must be talking about the exact same things. I disagree with that because of the actual wording of both versions. Both are talking aboutthe Olivet Discourse, and we are in agreement concerning that fact. Both wrote down the words of Lord Jesus. This too is true. Matthew didn't make up his version, and Luke did not either. It is the differences in these versions that bring up the exact scope of the Olivet Discourse. According to what I have read, the Olivet Discourse probably took at least an afternoon to complete, with even more detaqils that may not have been incorporated. Remember, Jesus taught an aweful lot in those last 3 days before his capture.

I have read that in Luke 21, LUke incorporated what Christ said concerning what was to happen before the birth pang signs. Matthew makes no such distinction. Why? Because when you read on in both versions, you find out that Luke harps on the "Before all of these things" while Matthew clearly focuses in on the signs of the end times, with no mentioning of the "before the birth pang". If it was not for Mark 13, I would have said that they are not talking about the same discourse. However, because Mark 13 incorporates both views, which include the "but before al of these" right along with the signs of the end as Matthew wrote them, I have no choice but to believe that Jesus talked about both points of view.

One can not come to this position unless both the positives and te negatives are exposed. By bringing out the differences, we realize just how much power Jesus had over all of the signs that He ACCURATELY foretold from the point of the Oliver Discourse to this very day. No prophet has ever been this accurate on this many subjects spanning this long, and yet Jesus is. This would not be seen unless the differences are highlighted along withthe positives. Hence the differences are necessary to be seen, right along with the positives.

Firstfruits
Jan 9th 2008, 04:21 PM
With regards to the abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of concerning Daniels prophecy he told them of the things that would happen, that they should look for before his return.

The following is what is written concerning the abomination spoken of by Daniel.

Dan 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 11:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 12:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The return of Christ is future, and the consummation of the abomination is when he returns.

2 Thess 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Mograce2U
Jan 9th 2008, 05:22 PM
With regards to the abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of concerning Daniels prophecy he told them of the things that would happen, that they should look for before his return.

The following is what is written concerning the abomination spoken of by Daniel.

Dan 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 11:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 12:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The return of Christ is future, and the consummation of the abomination is when he returns.

2 Thess 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: I can't let 2 Thes 2:8-9 just go by without comment. The word "with" is added by the translators in v 8 and the 1st one is perhaps valid, but the 2nd one changes the context considerably. Leaving only the one added "with" see what it says:

(2 Th 2:8-9 KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy the brightness of his coming: {9} whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,...

What is the spirit of the Lord's mouth other than His prophetic word coming to pass to accomplish this?

(Ezek 28:7 KJV) Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

(Ezek 28:17 KJV) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

(Dan 2:31 KJV) Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

Such brightness is not always speaking of the Lord either. The "he" who is coming in this passage is the "he" who is working by the power of Satan; the wicked one that is revealed then consumed by the prophecy spoken about him.

Firstfruits
Jan 10th 2008, 09:22 AM
I can't let 2 Thes 2:8-9 just go by without comment. The word "with" is added by the translators in v 8 and the 1st one is perhaps valid, but the 2nd one changes the context considerably. Leaving only the one added "with" see what it says:

(2 Th 2:8-9 KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy the brightness of his coming: {9} whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,...

What is the spirit of the Lord's mouth other than His prophetic word coming to pass to accomplish this?

(Ezek 28:7 KJV) Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

(Ezek 28:17 KJV) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

(Dan 2:31 KJV) Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

Such brightness is not always speaking of the Lord either. The "he" who is coming in this passage is the "he" who is working by the power of Satan; the wicked one that is revealed then consumed by the prophecy spoken about him.

Are you agreeing that what the references to the abomination in Daniel is what Christ was refering to?

Mograce2U
Jan 10th 2008, 04:51 PM
Are you agreeing that what the references to the abomination in Daniel is what Christ was refering to?I agree that the abomination that would bring the desolation was the Roman armies and the sign they were to look for when those armies were encamped around Jerusalem. The wicked one who was working by the power of Satan however was the one inciting the rebellion that brought Rome down upon Israel.

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2008, 09:31 AM
I agree that the abomination that would bring the desolation was the Roman armies and the sign they were to look for when those armies were encamped around Jerusalem. The wicked one who was working by the power of Satan however was the one inciting the rebellion that brought Rome down upon Israel.

Where would you place this scripture, past or future, as it is when Christ returns?

Rev 20:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire And brimstone, where the beast And the false prophet are, And shall be tormented day And night for ever And ever.

Stefen
Jan 11th 2008, 02:31 PM
Where would you place this scripture, past or future, as it is when Christ returns?

Rev 20:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire And brimstone, where the beast And the false prophet are, And shall be tormented day And night for ever And ever.

I am very interested to hear the answer to this question.

Mograce2U
Jan 11th 2008, 05:10 PM
Where would you place this scripture, past or future, as it is when Christ returns?

Rev 20:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire And brimstone, where the beast And the false prophet are, And shall be tormented day And night for ever And ever.Well I accept the Amil view that the millennial kingdom is now and these verses are yet future. Where I differ with the Amil is that I see Rev 19 as Jesus coming in the clouds (of judgment) in 70 AD as being what marks His rule in this kingdom which was initiated during His ministry on the earth, secured by the cross for the faithful, and then judgment brought upon His enemies marks the end of the kingdom campaign to establish His rule in righteousness in the earth after all other authorities and rebels were successfully put down.

Firstfruits
Jan 13th 2008, 12:15 PM
Well I accept the Amil view that the millennial kingdom is now and these verses are yet future. Where I differ with the Amil is that I see Rev 19 as Jesus coming in the clouds (of judgment) in 70 AD as being what marks His rule in this kingdom which was initiated during His ministry on the earth, secured by the cross for the faithful, and then judgment brought upon His enemies marks the end of the kingdom campaign to establish His rule in righteousness in the earth after all other authorities and rebels were successfully put down.

Since that which Christ revealed to John is yet to come, then what Christ said concerning Daniel is also yet to come, since after the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire there is no more except for those things that happen at judgment.

Mograce2U
Jan 13th 2008, 04:24 PM
Since that which Christ revealed to John is yet to come, then what Christ said concerning Daniel is also yet to come, since after the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire there is no more except for those things that happen at judgment.Satan's being bound in the pit for a spell can only be after the beast and false prophet are sent to the lake since he was the power behind their rise. Therefore I see Rev 20 as following ch 19 chronologically. At the cross Satan was cast to the earth but his binding was not yet complete since he was able to persecute the 1st century saints for a spell during the time the beast was in power. The Judaizers are clearly the false prophet working together with this beast (Rome) which caused the persecutions of the saints - and which also scattered them into the world with their testimony of Jesus.

Daniel 12:7 speaks of the power of the holy people being scattered as being what was to be accomplished in their being persecuted and what would mark when these things were near to being finished. When the armies surrounded Jerusalem was the sign for them to flee. Jesus is thus opening the book of Daniel that was sealed to reveal when the prophecy was to be fulfilled to that generation which saw these things take place.

The reason I think we have such trouble understanding these prophecies today is because we are trying to put into the future what has already taken place in the past. Whereas Satan's little season near the end of the 1,000 years is the only far future thing which effects us - and that spiritual deception could not be more evident in our day. If prophecy is to give a real warning to the people to whom it is given then it is imperative for us to find which part should apply to us. And this 1,000 year marker is the only one that points to a far future time in which we now CAN have a part, since everything else was for the generation which would see these other things come to pass.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection - that's what ties us to those 1st century saints during this time as we are being gathered to the Lord. In the call we have been given to call others to "Come" ought to be the testimony of what Jesus has done in fulfilling all the prophecies given that are about Him. Because He is sitting upon the throne of His Father and rules in the kingdom He established as He works to subdue the rebels in His kingdom by converting them by His testimony.

Jesus is Lord, He is King of kings because He is risen! He has defeated His foes and shown His power to rule over them and we have this testimony to show the world from the record given us of the Son, that He is the One whom the Father has ordained to be Judge of the quick and the dead. Of which His resurrection is proof as is the fulfillment of this final prophecy for Israel, that Jesus has the preeminence in heaven and earth.

Which Satan seems bent on getting men to deny is true.

Firstfruits
Jan 13th 2008, 07:56 PM
Satan's being bound in the pit for a spell can only be after the beast and false prophet are sent to the lake since he was the power behind their rise. Therefore I see Rev 20 as following ch 19 chronologically. At the cross Satan was cast to the earth but his binding was not yet complete since he was able to persecute the 1st century saints for a spell during the time the beast was in power. The Judaizers are clearly the false prophet working together with this beast (Rome) which caused the persecutions of the saints - and which also scattered them into the world with their testimony of Jesus.

Daniel 12:7 speaks of the power of the holy people being scattered as being what was to be accomplished in their being persecuted and what would mark when these things were near to being finished. When the armies surrounded Jerusalem was the sign for them to flee. Jesus is thus opening the book of Daniel that was sealed to reveal when the prophecy was to be fulfilled to that generation which saw these things take place.

The reason I think we have such trouble understanding these prophecies today is because we are trying to put into the future what has already taken place in the past. Whereas Satan's little season near the end of the 1,000 years is the only far future thing which effects us - and that spiritual deception could not be more evident in our day. If prophecy is to give a real warning to the people to whom it is given then it is imperative for us to find which part should apply to us. And this 1,000 year marker is the only one that points to a far future time in which we now CAN have a part, since everything else was for the generation which would see these other things come to pass.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection - that's what ties us to those 1st century saints during this time as we are being gathered to the Lord. In the call we have been given to call others to "Come" ought to be the testimony of what Jesus has done in fulfilling all the prophecies given that are about Him. Because He is sitting upon the throne of His Father and rules in the kingdom He established as He works to subdue the rebels in His kingdom by converting them by His testimony.

Jesus is Lord, He is King of kings because He is risen! He has defeated His foes and shown His power to rule over them and we have this testimony to show the world from the record given us of the Son, that He is the One whom the Father has ordained to be Judge of the quick and the dead. Of which His resurrection is proof as is the fulfillment of this final prophecy for Israel, that Jesus has the preeminence in heaven and earth.

Which Satan seems bent on getting men to deny is true.

So when was Satan thrown into the lake of fire since this scripture is past?

Rev 20:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire And brimstone, where the beast And the false prophet are, And shall be tormented day And night for ever And ever.

John146
Jan 13th 2008, 09:11 PM
Satan's being bound in the pit for a spell can only be after the beast and false prophet are sent to the lake since he was the power behind their rise. Therefore I see Rev 20 as following ch 19 chronologically. At the cross Satan was cast to the earth but his binding was not yet complete since he was able to persecute the 1st century saints for a spell during the time the beast was in power. The Judaizers are clearly the false prophet working together with this beast (Rome) which caused the persecutions of the saints - and which also scattered them into the world with their testimony of Jesus.

Robin,

The binding of Satan has to do with him not being able to deceive the nations as he did before. It has nothing to do with his ability to persecute the saints. It clearly says he is bound from deceiving the nations and says nothing about him being bound from persecuting the saints. He was bound at the cross. He was not able to deceive the nations as He did before then. Especially once the day of Pentecost came and the gospel began to go out in the power of the Holy Spirit.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. - Hebrews 2:14-15

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. - Col 2:13-15

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. - 1 John 3:8

Eric

Mograce2U
Jan 13th 2008, 10:16 PM
Robin,

The binding of Satan has to do with him not being able to deceive the nations as he did before. It has nothing to do with his ability to persecute the saints. It clearly says he is bound from deceiving the nations and says nothing about him being bound from persecuting the saints. He was bound at the cross. He was not able to deceive the nations as He did before then. Especially once the day of Pentecost came and the gospel began to go out in the power of the Holy Spirit.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. - Hebrews 2:14-15

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. - Col 2:13-15

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. - 1 John 3:8

EricIt would seem as who is included in those nations may be more than just "Gentiles":

The announcement of the curse upon Israel if she forsook the Lord:
(Deu 28:27-28 KJV) The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. {28} The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:

Satan's activity before the cross while the gospel is being preached:
(Mark 4:15 KJV) And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Is apparently part of God's plan for those who reject the gospel:
(John 12:40-41 KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. {41} These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Satan post cross & post Pentecost, is able to deceive Ananias & Sapphira:
(Acts 5:3 KJV) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [I]part of the price of the land?

Paul rehearses his testimony before king Agrippa that he was to continue the ministry Jesus began on a broader scope:
(Acts 26:15-18 KJV) And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. {16} But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; {17} Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, {18} To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The devil still working in the children of disobedience in the 1st century:
(Eph 2:2 KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Which marks them for God's wrath (filling up their sins):
(Eph 5:6 KJV) Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Some Gentiles still in ignorance and blindness under Satan's domain:
(Eph 4:17-18 KJV) This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, {18} Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Satan bring used to try the saints:
(1 Pet 5:8-11 KJV) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: {9} Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. {10} But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. {11} To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

(Rev 12:9-11 KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. {10} And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. {11} And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All we know about this initial casting down of Satan is that it occurred after Jesus was caught up to the throne. Yet it seems he still had a job to do - which his being bound and under the rule of the Lord was being controlled for God's purposes while the eyes of many of those he blinded were being opened - but not all. Who he could not deceive was those who held the testimony of Jesus - yet he could persecute them by those who he was allowed to deceive. Jesus showed us His power over him even before the cross. So while it sounds good that his binding was to allow the spread of the gospel, it seems to be more than that; as the One who rules all principalities and powers used him as He desired.

At some point in time he will be given more freedom to deceive the nations, which can only be those who do not belong to Christ already. Especially since we also see that his purpose in deceiving them is to come against the saints. Could that day be any more fraught with false teachings than the one we are in now?

Allegra
Jan 14th 2008, 05:30 AM
Robin,

The binding of Satan has to do with him not being able to deceive the nations as he did before. It has nothing to do with his ability to persecute the saints. It clearly says he is bound from deceiving the nations and says nothing about him being bound from persecuting the saints. He was bound at the cross. He was not able to deceive the nations as He did before then. Especially once the day of Pentecost came and the gospel began to go out in the power of the Holy Spirit.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. - Hebrews 2:14-15

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. - Col 2:13-15

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. - 1 John 3:8

Eric
Hey, I agree with you there. The beast may persecute the saints, but he doesn't deceive them. (Or else they'd take the mark)
Satan was bound at the Cross. Christ's first advent begins the millennium.

John146
Jan 14th 2008, 08:06 PM
Hey, I agree with you there. The beast may persecute the saints, but he doesn't deceive them. (Or else they'd take the mark)
Satan was bound at the Cross. Christ's first advent begins the millennium.

I agree. Not only does the binding of Satan mark the beginning of the thousand years, but so does the saints reigning with Christ. The saints began to reign with Christ after His death, resurrection and ascension. After His resurrection, He told the disciples that all power in heaven and earth had been given to Him. If He wasn't reigning at that point, then I guess having all power in heaven and earth doesn't amount to much. The binding of Satan has to coincide with the timing of the beginning of Christ's reign and there's no way that occurred in 70 AD or whenever MoGrace is claiming that Satan was bound.

third hero
Jan 15th 2008, 05:11 AM
I agree. Not only does the binding of Satan mark the beginning of the thousand years, but so does the saints reigning with Christ. The saints began to reign with Christ after His death, resurrection and ascension. After His resurrection, He told the disciples that all power in heaven and earth had been given to Him. If He wasn't reigning at that point, then I guess having all power in heaven and earth doesn't amount to much. The binding of Satan has to coincide with the timing of the beginning of Christ's reign and there's no way that occurred in 70 AD or whenever MoGrace is claiming that Satan was bound.

ANd so, since Christ has all power, dominion and authority, Jesus is ultimately responsible for the :

Crusades, all three
The Inquisitions
The myriads of false doctrines that have invaded the church since Penticost
Every atrocity that has ever taken place on earth since His death, including the Holocaust, the Mongolian raids, and the millions dead due to various rebellions.

I mean, since all power and authority in heaven and earth is in Christ's hands, Christ is responsible for all of these things.

Unless one understands the role and the authority of the enemy, one can not truly understand the scope of God's authority.

For instance, the Lord has power over all of the heaven and earth, and yet the power that God gave Adam is in the control of the enemy. Does Jesus control the enemy to the point that the enemy can not do anything without Jesus's approval?

Absolutely.

And so, Christ is responsible for all of the atrocities of the world. Even because Satan can not do anything unless God gives him the wiggle room to do what he wants to do. And so, Christ is evil, because all power over heaven and earth, including the power over the unborn that the World executes everyday, and the many believers that are executed and imprisoned everyday.

The point?

There is an authority that, due to the fact that Adam gave his authority to Satan, Jesus is obligated to honor. Adam was not only the leader of all mankind, being the first, but also the first example. When he gave over himself to the forbidden fruit, he gave his authority to Satan, and thus, Satan now weilds something in which the Lord has no choice but to honor. This is Adam's authority over men. This is what Satan gained at Eden.

What does this mean? Because Adam gave away his authority over men, Satan now has the right to test men, and accuse them of evil in the eyes of the Lord. This is shown in the tests that Satan was given permission to give to Job. It is also shown everytime a believer is undergoing a severe tribulation, or a trial that is nothing less than vexing. This is the work of Satan. God, being one who honors his words, who gave Adam sovereignty over all of the earth, has to honor the authority that he gave to Adam, which Satan wields. Therefore, the adversary has the ability to attack believers at will.

Does Jesus have all power? Yes. Including the power that Satan weilds over men. However, it is not Jesus's fault for the atrocities that befall mankind. It is Adam's and subsequently, Satan's fault. Satan uses his power as the subduer of the earth, and uses it to bring forth all sorts of disasters upon mankind. This includes the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the many false doctrines, and every disaster that befell the earth since the death of our Lord.

Now, what does this have to do wth the topic? Even better yet, where did I get all of this from?

The answer of the second question is that the evidence is the whole book of Job, the book of Revelation, Genesis 1-3, and History of Western Civilization. I just put all of the pieces together. HOw come Satan was able to acuse Job of things when God had already proclaimed him to be one without equal in that day? What gives the enemy the ability to accuse the one known as Joshua in Zechariah 3? Was Satan telling the truth to the Lord when He said that all of the kingdoms of this world are his? What did Paul mean when he called the enemy, "the god of this world"? My research answered all of these questions, and here is the conclusion.

In other words, here's how it all ties in.

Jesus came to earth the first time to free people fro mthe grip of the enemy. Before then, all mankind were slaves to Satan, because of the authority of God that Adam gave away to Satan. When Jesus ascended to heaven, the power and authority of God was given to Him, and the very same problem that God had to deal with as noted in Job 1, Jesus has to deal with. God's plan for Jesus, His Son, is to not only rule all of the world, but to take away Satan's dominion, and that authority that Satan took from Adam. Was that authority taken away from Satan yet?

No.

Will it be taken away?

Yes.

When?

At His glorious return. Satan is stripped of his authority, as mentioned in several places in the Bible, and is tossed away, and Jesus ends up ruling what is left of this world until the very last enemy is totally wiped out, which is death.

This is why I can not accept the idea that the saints rule this world. The saints do not have the authority that satan wields, which is this world. The saints only have power over the authorities of this world, which is different from actually ruling over the world, as prophesied. It's like me having authority over the President of the United States, and yet the President constantly finds ways to subtlely disobey my direct orders. I am ultimate the head, but the President has room to rule the nation as he sees fit, at least until I come to make him give an account for his actions. This is the same with Jesus and Satan. Jesus has ultimate authority, but Satan is the ruler of the world. At some point, Jesus will make Satan give an account, and that will be at His return.

The saints do not rule this world, or else no saint would have to be persecuted. No, our authority is not the same as Satan's. And this is the reason why I can not agree with your sentiments Eric.

Mograce2U
Jan 15th 2008, 04:41 PM
TH, #63 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1501179&postcount=63)
A quick look at Gen 1:26 does not show that Adam was given any authority over other men, but over the rest of creation. It was God who was to rule over man. When he submitted to the serpent's lie, he turned away from being ruled by God and this is how the devil gained power over him thru sin. Satan retains this power thru sin to blind the minds of those who do not believe God. (2 Cor 4:4) It is in this way he rules the world still in bondage to their sin. But he has no access to the realm in which Christ dwells where Jesus has power and authority greater than his. Satan can work in evil men, but not in good men who serve the Lord. In fact he can bring no harm to them which is of any eternal consequence, since death is not the end of the matter for those who are in Christ. Death is only affecting men in this life, and we see that all men die. But not all men will live again, and these belong to Satan - until such time as they turn to Christ. Then Satan can cause no permanent harm to those who belong to Jesus.

You seem to be confusing what evil men do in this world as being somehow God's fault if He allows such evil to exist. But this world has already been judged and it is doomed no matter what they do. Evil men like Hitler & Stalin or even the Crusaders & the Popes only brought death quicker than it would have come otherwise, and brought men into the destiny that awaits them. Which for the Christian is into glory.

If you are looking for peace on earth among men as the evidence that Satan is bound you are looking at the wrong sphere. The only peace on earth that you will find here in this world, is the peace that surpasses understanding that comes to men who have been reconciled to God in Christ. While evil men wax worse and worse as they fit themselves for the destruction that awaits them and bring the day of judgment upon themselves in a timely fashion. Which is what we can expect to see as this temporary world draws to its close.

quiet dove
Jan 15th 2008, 05:42 PM
third hero, Mograce,

I think you both made good points in your post and you actually agree for the most part.

If you think about it Mg2

Gen 1:26 does not show that Adam was given any authority over other men, but over the rest of creation.

This is true, but at the same time, didn't Adam hand himself over to the kingdom of darkness, and we also know that through one man all have sinned, so all men were basically handed over to the kingdom of darkness. With Adam's disobedience he removed himself from right standing with God, the kingdom of Light and he gave up the authority even over himself as he was left a helpless captive of the kingdom of darkness?

In a way men do still have authority over the rest of creation to the extent that he has authority over himself. If he is still captive in the kingdom of darkness, without Christ, he has no authority,(he thinks he does) but if he is in Christ Jesus, having been set free from the kingdom of darkness, he has authority through Jesus because Jesus has authority over all things. But that authority would be spiritually, as we obviously still wrestle with the flesh which is effected by the curse just as creation is burdened by the curse.

We basically, every day, must choose to walk in the Spirit,(through Christ we are freed from the kingdom of darkness enabling us to choose) the Kingdom of Light, where we will be victorious and realize our authority through Christ, but if (and when for some of us) we fall back into the flesh we are to an extent back in the prison of the kingdom of darkness. We are not "unsaved" but we definitely can and usually do pay a heavy price for playing in the wrong kingdom.

I am not sure any of that makes any sense, I am sure you guys will let me know. :kiss:

Friend of I AM
Jan 15th 2008, 05:47 PM
TH, #63 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1501179&postcount=63)
A quick look at Gen 1:26 does not show that Adam was given any authority over other men, but over the rest of creation. It was God who was to rule over man. When he submitted to the serpent's lie, he turned away from being ruled by God and this is how the devil gained power over him thru sin. Satan retains this power thru sin to blind the minds of those who do not believe God. (2 Cor 4:4) It is in this way he rules the world still in bondage to their sin. But he has no access to the realm in which Christ dwells where Jesus has power and authority greater than his. Satan can work in evil men, but not in good men who serve the Lord. In fact he can bring no harm to them which is of any eternal consequence, since death is not the end of the matter for those who are in Christ. Death is only affecting men in this life, and we see that all men die. But not all men will live again, and these belong to Satan - until such time as they turn to Christ. Then Satan can cause no permanent harm to those who belong to Jesus.

You seem to be confusing what evil men do in this world as being somehow God's fault if He allows such evil to exist. But this world has already been judged and it is doomed no matter what they do. Evil men like Hitler & Stalin or even the Crusaders & the Popes only brought death quicker than it would have come otherwise, and brought men into the destiny that awaits them. Which for the Christian is into glory.

If you are looking for peace on earth among men as the evidence that Satan is bound you are looking at the wrong sphere. The only peace on earth that you will find here in this world, is the peace that surpasses understanding that comes to men who have been reconciled to God in Christ. While evil men wax worse and worse as they fit themselves for the destruction that awaits them and bring the day of judgment upon themselves in a timely fashion. Which is what we can expect to see as this temporary world draws to its close.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mograce2U
Jan 15th 2008, 06:19 PM
third hero, Mograce,

I think you both made good points in your post and you actually agree for the most part.

If you think about it Mg2


This is true, but at the same time, didn't Adam hand himself over to the kingdom of darkness, and we also know that through one man all have sinned, so all men were basically handed over to the kingdom of darkness. With Adam's disobedience he removed himself from right standing with God, the kingdom of Light and he gave up the authority even over himself as he was left a helpless captive of the kingdom of darkness?

In a way men do still have authority over the rest of creation to the extent that he has authority over himself. If he is still captive in the kingdom of darkness, without Christ, he has no authority,(he thinks he does) but if he is in Christ Jesus, having been set free from the kingdom of darkness, he has authority through Jesus because Jesus has authority over all things. But that authority would be spiritually, as we obviously still wrestle with the flesh which is effected by the curse just as creation is burdened by the curse.

We basically, every day, must choose to walk in the Spirit,(through Christ we are freed from the kingdom of darkness enabling us to choose) the Kingdom of Light, where we will be victorious and realize our authority through Christ, but if (and when for some of us) we fall back into the flesh we are to an extent back in the prison of the kingdom of darkness. We are not "unsaved" but we definitely can and usually do pay a heavy price for playing in the wrong kingdom.

I am not sure any of that makes any sense, I am sure you guys will let me know. :kiss:
Which is no doubt why we are still warned about the blindness which willful sin can bring upon us, hardening our hearts to the Spirit. I think it is probably a delusion that man retains any real independent authority over himself (yet I believe in a limited free will), since even in serving self he must submit his will to either God or the devil. Only one of which he can do so freely and knowingly. This is the deception that sin brings with it in that the man who turns back to sin, doesn't realize who he has submitted to. The man who is victorious over sin must choose that path which God sets before us, each and every time.

John146
Jan 15th 2008, 10:45 PM
ANd so, since Christ has all power, dominion and authority, Jesus is ultimately responsible for the :

Crusades, all three
The Inquisitions
The myriads of false doctrines that have invaded the church since Penticost
Every atrocity that has ever taken place on earth since His death, including the Holocaust, the Mongolian raids, and the millions dead due to various rebellions.

I mean, since all power and authority in heaven and earth is in Christ's hands, Christ is responsible for all of these things.

Unless one understands the role and the authority of the enemy, one can not truly understand the scope of God's authority.

For instance, the Lord has power over all of the heaven and earth, and yet the power that God gave Adam is in the control of the enemy. Does Jesus control the enemy to the point that the enemy can not do anything without Jesus's approval?

Absolutely.

And so, Christ is responsible for all of the atrocities of the world. Even because Satan can not do anything unless God gives him the wiggle room to do what he wants to do. And so, Christ is evil, because all power over heaven and earth, including the power over the unborn that the World executes everyday, and the many believers that are executed and imprisoned everyday.

The point?

There is an authority that, due to the fact that Adam gave his authority to Satan, Jesus is obligated to honor. Adam was not only the leader of all mankind, being the first, but also the first example. When he gave over himself to the forbidden fruit, he gave his authority to Satan, and thus, Satan now weilds something in which the Lord has no choice but to honor. This is Adam's authority over men. This is what Satan gained at Eden.

What does this mean? Because Adam gave away his authority over men, Satan now has the right to test men, and accuse them of evil in the eyes of the Lord. This is shown in the tests that Satan was given permission to give to Job. It is also shown everytime a believer is undergoing a severe tribulation, or a trial that is nothing less than vexing. This is the work of Satan. God, being one who honors his words, who gave Adam sovereignty over all of the earth, has to honor the authority that he gave to Adam, which Satan wields. Therefore, the adversary has the ability to attack believers at will.

Does Jesus have all power? Yes. Including the power that Satan weilds over men. However, it is not Jesus's fault for the atrocities that befall mankind. It is Adam's and subsequently, Satan's fault. Satan uses his power as the subduer of the earth, and uses it to bring forth all sorts of disasters upon mankind. This includes the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the many false doctrines, and every disaster that befell the earth since the death of our Lord.

Now, what does this have to do wth the topic? Even better yet, where did I get all of this from?

The answer of the second question is that the evidence is the whole book of Job, the book of Revelation, Genesis 1-3, and History of Western Civilization. I just put all of the pieces together. HOw come Satan was able to acuse Job of things when God had already proclaimed him to be one without equal in that day? What gives the enemy the ability to accuse the one known as Joshua in Zechariah 3? Was Satan telling the truth to the Lord when He said that all of the kingdoms of this world are his? What did Paul mean when he called the enemy, "the god of this world"? My research answered all of these questions, and here is the conclusion.

In other words, here's how it all ties in.

Jesus came to earth the first time to free people fro mthe grip of the enemy. Before then, all mankind were slaves to Satan, because of the authority of God that Adam gave away to Satan. When Jesus ascended to heaven, the power and authority of God was given to Him, and the very same problem that God had to deal with as noted in Job 1, Jesus has to deal with. God's plan for Jesus, His Son, is to not only rule all of the world, but to take away Satan's dominion, and that authority that Satan took from Adam. Was that authority taken away from Satan yet?

No.

Will it be taken away?

Yes.

When?

At His glorious return. Satan is stripped of his authority, as mentioned in several places in the Bible, and is tossed away, and Jesus ends up ruling what is left of this world until the very last enemy is totally wiped out, which is death.

This is why I can not accept the idea that the saints rule this world. The saints do not have the authority that satan wields, which is this world. The saints only have power over the authorities of this world, which is different from actually ruling over the world, as prophesied. It's like me having authority over the President of the United States, and yet the President constantly finds ways to subtlely disobey my direct orders. I am ultimate the head, but the President has room to rule the nation as he sees fit, at least until I come to make him give an account for his actions. This is the same with Jesus and Satan. Jesus has ultimate authority, but Satan is the ruler of the world. At some point, Jesus will make Satan give an account, and that will be at His return.

The saints do not rule this world, or else no saint would have to be persecuted. No, our authority is not the same as Satan's. And this is the reason why I can not agree with your sentiments Eric.

Jesus is responsible for all the atrocities of the world? There was no point in continuing to read your post after that. Wow.

third hero
Jan 17th 2008, 06:52 PM
Jesus is responsible for all the atrocities of the world? There was no point in continuing to read your post after that. Wow.

Eric, you should've just read a little bit more, then you would understand what I was actually saying.

And so, in more blunt, and simpler terms, I lay out to you my point. You say that Jesus has all power over all of heaven and earth. If this is true, and it is, then everything that has happened since the ascention of our Lord is on the shoulders of Him.

Now, if Jesus hold all authority in both heaven and earth, then what authority does Satan have, since he did offer that authority to Him during Christ's temptation, and the kicker is that Christ did not deny that Satan could do what he claimed that he could do?

The answer is the earth, namely the men of the earth. Jesus does not have that authority yet. Jesus can only rule over the one that has that authority, and yet, it was never god's intention for one as evil as Satan to posess that kind of power. (see Matthew 4 for more details).

My point is this:
Satan is the god of this world, and that position has not been taken from him as of yet. The only thing that has happened, and you and the others have actually opened my eyes to this fact, is that the Kingdom of Heaven has revealed itself to men, and upon doing so, giving people the ability to be freed from the grip of the god of this earth.

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. -Matthew 12:28

According to Jesus's own words, the Kingdom of heaven hath shown herself, through Him. Since then, God the Father gave to Lord Jesus His authority, with the intentions of removing Satan from his post as god of this world. This will happen upon the Conquering King's return. This is why the Lord will rule over the world until the last enemy, Death, is destroyed.

When you say blanket statements like Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, you are implying that nothing on this earth can happen unless the Lord consents to it. This is just plain wrong. If we all went by your opinion, then Jesus would be respoonsible for every disaster and evil event that has happened since His ascention. No, there is one power that he does not have yet completely, and that is the power over all mankind. That is Satan's for the time being. The only power that Jesus has is the ability to judge and limit what Satan can do while he is the god of this evil world, and judge all mankind for their actions which include siding with the enemy. But that is going to change really soon.

If you want to cal this blasphemy, then ask yourself this question. Satan offered to Jesus the kingdoms of men, and the splendor of those kingdoms, if only Christ would bow to Him. Jesus could have used any scripture to rebuke Satan, including the ones stating that all of the world is God's and everything in it (Psalm 50:12). But He didn't. He said this:

You will worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.

Why?

That answer is why Christ has to return to this earth. Jesus rules over Satan, and satan rules over mankind, except for the men and women wise enough to escape by the blood of the Lamb. This is why every Christian will be persecuted. This is not our world, nor do we rule over it. Our power is over the rulers of this world, the same as Christ. That is why we can cast out demons, but can not force anyone to believe in the Gospel.

So, in closing, this is not the Millennia, as you claim. The saints do not rule this world, Jesus does not rule this world, and He is not ruling this world from Jerusalem. No, we only have power over the rulers of this world, as CHrist did BEFORE his death and resurrection. This is why there are still disasters and evil vile ruthless things happening on this earth, because the root of sin is still in control, and the Lord is only capable of limiting his influence. But the bible is true, and all men liars. When the Lord returns, Satan loses his authority, (Daniel 7, 9, 12, Rev 20:1-3), and will be completely exiled from this world.

Now do you understand what I was saying, Eric? Maybe this can advance the conversation.

third hero
Jan 17th 2008, 07:06 PM
third hero, Mograce,

I think you both made good points in your post and you actually agree for the most part.

If you think about it Mg2


This is true, but at the same time, didn't Adam hand himself over to the kingdom of darkness, and we also know that through one man all have sinned, so all men were basically handed over to the kingdom of darkness. With Adam's disobedience he removed himself from right standing with God, the kingdom of Light and he gave up the authority even over himself as he was left a helpless captive of the kingdom of darkness?

In a way men do still have authority over the rest of creation to the extent that he has authority over himself. If he is still captive in the kingdom of darkness, without Christ, he has no authority,(he thinks he does) but if he is in Christ Jesus, having been set free from the kingdom of darkness, he has authority through Jesus because Jesus has authority over all things. But that authority would be spiritually, as we obviously still wrestle with the flesh which is effected by the curse just as creation is burdened by the curse.

We basically, every day, must choose to walk in the Spirit,(through Christ we are freed from the kingdom of darkness enabling us to choose) the Kingdom of Light, where we will be victorious and realize our authority through Christ, but if (and when for some of us) we fall back into the flesh we are to an extent back in the prison of the kingdom of darkness. We are not "unsaved" but we definitely can and usually do pay a heavy price for playing in the wrong kingdom.

I am not sure any of that makes any sense, I am sure you guys will let me know. :kiss:


Yes, you are absolutely right. Adam did have authority, and that authority was over the rest of the earth. He himself had authority over whom he, and his descendents would follow and obey. When he sided wirth Satan, he gave control over the earth, and over himself, over to the enemy. Now, since we all came from Adam, we all had to go under the same control that Adam submitted himself to, and that was to the enemy.

This is why CHrist had to die for our sins. God did not want this, and for Adam's sin, all men had to perish. However, God did not leave us stranded. He decided that a sacrifice was need to redeem mankind from Satan's hand. Jesus had to die to save all of us. And died He did. Because He did not sin, and yet was in a body that was capable of sin, He had shown the rest of heaven why He wa the ONLY one worthy of saving mankind. And thus, in order to prepare the Lord for His reign on earth, God the Father gave Him all of the authority He has, which includes the reigns over the rulers of the earth, which Satan happened to be the chief of them. This is the All Authority that Jesus told the disciples in Matthew 28. This is the same power and authority that we have right now, not to rule over this world, but to rule over the rulers of this world. This is why we must continue to understand our position on this earth.

We willl have trouble because we are no longer of this world. Even the backsliders have to understand this. I know because when I slid back, I felt weird, as though no matter what sin I would do, I could never fit in with the rest of the world. This is the truth, no believer can fit in with the rest of the world, because we are not of this world. We are freed from Satan's grip. We cast out demons and bring healing to this world because we operate in the authority of our Lord Jesus. Like Him, we have power to cast out demons, control the authorities of this world, and fight against them. They HAVE to obey us, because the authority we walk in is the Authority over them. However, they do not like being ruled by the same people they once had control over, and so they send their minions after us, to squelch us, and to defeat us. We can not control the men whom the enemy has sent against us, which is the main reason why I say that the Millennium has not come yet.

Sorry to be a broken record, but that time, the time when Satan loses his authority over the earth, will happen, when the Lord returns, and takes it from him. To be more accurate, He, Lord Jesus, will take Satan's authority from his representative, the Beast.