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dljc
Dec 14th 2007, 03:36 AM
In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus prayed before He was taken captive, that led to His trial and crucifixion. What was in the cup that He prayed and asked twice to let this cup pass from Him.

Matthew 26:
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

The idea of this study is to consider what was in the cup. I'd like your comments on what you think it was. Understanding this can help us better understand all that He did for us.

Ayala
Dec 14th 2007, 03:39 AM
I always believed He was referencing the great suffering He would endure.

dljc
Dec 14th 2007, 03:48 AM
I always believed He was referencing the great suffering He would endure.Can you be a little more specific? (please understand I'm not baiting you on this for a debate, only to help in understanding).

Ayala
Dec 14th 2007, 03:50 AM
Errr...Being beaten, scourged, bled out, spiked to a cross, etc.

revrobor
Dec 14th 2007, 04:04 AM
There was no literal "cup". He was asking God to not let what was about to happen to Him happen. But if it was God's will Jesus said He would endure it.

dljc
Dec 14th 2007, 04:09 AM
Errr...Being beaten, scourged, bled out, spiked to a cross, etc.Thanks Jeremy, :)

All of these things were horrific. I don't think any one of us can even come close to describing all that He went through physically in these events that took place. But there was more to it than just the physical temporal body. Look at what Jesus said in Matthew 10:26-31 more specifically:

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What are we warned about in Romans concerning sin?

dljc
Dec 14th 2007, 04:11 AM
There was no literal "cup". He was asking God to not let what was about to happen to Him happen. But if it was God's will Jesus said He would endure it.I agree, I was using it in the terms Jesus was using it. :)

Mograce2U
Dec 14th 2007, 04:49 AM
Jesus "drank" the cup of God's wrath upon sin. The cup we drink at the Lord's table represents His blood spilled for us, as Jesus' life was poured out as a drink offering for our atonement.

Soj
Dec 14th 2007, 07:47 AM
Jesus here is praying to be released from drinking a cup, this cup is the "cup of God's wrath" on sin:

Jeremiah 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

Isaiah 51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.

Psalms 75:8 For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

The cup of God's wrath is to be poured out upon Him while He is being crucified, thus making Him to "be sin for us" (2 Cori 5:21).

I don't believe that Jesus was praying to be released from crucifixion or physical death, but to be released from drinking the cup of God's wrath, and the answer He was given was NO. Jesus drank it to the dregs!

John 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

kimilmela
Dec 14th 2007, 07:07 PM
When Jesus was crucified and became a sacrifice for mankind, He paid the price that was the natural justice for our sin.....ie. total separation from God.
But Jesus had never ever been separated from His Father before....they had always been together in each other's presence. Imagine what the dread of having that relationship broken would feel like, if you had never experienced it.....and think of His cry on the cross: 'My Father, why have you forsaken me?'
That was the cup He referred to- He knew it was going to happen, and that was worse than all the pain He was going to experience physically. That was why, being in human form, He begged the Father to release Him from the necessity of it- but accepted that, if it was the only way, He would endure it, for our sake.
We serve an amazing God!

Ayala
Dec 14th 2007, 07:34 PM
Indeed, a horrible burden to have the sins of the world cast on your shoulders and to have the almighty Father turn away from you on the account those immeasurable transgressions.

karenoka27
Dec 14th 2007, 07:41 PM
We just shared communion this Sunday. One of the elders prayed and said, "Father, thank You for Your Son Jesus Christ, who endured the cross as You emptied Your cup of wrath upon Him to the last drop until You were satisfied.

Isaiah 53:10-"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, ..."

Ta-An
Dec 14th 2007, 08:14 PM
dljc, it has to do with Jewish custom....

When a man goes to ask for the hand of his bride (in marriage) there is a cup of wine served..... the brides father will set a "price" for the bride, and if the groom accepts to pay the price, by drinking of the cup, the bride is his.... if he'd let the cup pass him by, the price was too high and the groom could not pay it

And what Jesus is talking about here, is the price that was set for the bride... (us)... it meant that Christ had to lay down His life for her (us)

I hope you get what I am trying to say :hmm:

Ta-An
Dec 14th 2007, 08:25 PM
When you look at the story of Abraham that sends his servant to get a bride for his son Isaac ................. and see the size of the 'gift' / price Abraham was prepared to pay Gen 24:10 And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; for all the goods of his master were in his hand: and he arose, and went to Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor.


The price for the bride in our case was/is salvation from sin, which could only be paid with the Blood of G_d... Jesus Christ :)

Jn 10:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Jn 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Brother Mark
Dec 14th 2007, 09:12 PM
What a great thread. I love the responses here.

I also think of the scripture where Jesus asked "are you able to drink the cup that I drink from" and they responded yes. Jesus then said "You will drink from the same cup".

I think there are many answers that are thought provoking. I hope people keep posting because I am learning a lot here.

threebigrocks
Dec 14th 2007, 09:17 PM
Jesus "drank" the cup of God's wrath upon sin. The cup we drink at the Lord's table represents His blood spilled for us, as Jesus' life was poured out as a drink offering for our atonement.

You took my answer. :) T'was the wrath of God he begged to not have to drink.

dljc
Dec 15th 2007, 04:10 PM
I like these two responses because one gives a literal interpretation, and the other goes into a little more detail that we don't always consider and that's what the symbol means.

As it was agreed upon earlier in the thread there was no "literal cup". But as ACCM has pointed out it was a figure of speech based on Jewish tradition for a marriage to a bride. There was a price that had to be paid, and if it wasn't paid, no marriage could happen.

dljc, it has to do with Jewish custom....

When a man goes to ask for the hand of his bride (in marriage) there is a cup of wine served..... the brides father will set a "price" for the bride, and if the groom accepts to pay the price, by drinking of the cup, the bride is his.... if he'd let the cup pass him by, the price was too high and the groom could not pay it

And what Jesus is talking about here, is the price that was set for the bride... (us)... it meant that Christ had to lay down His life for her (us)

I hope you get what I am trying to say :hmm:

When Jesus was crucified and became a sacrifice for mankind, He paid the price that was the natural justice for our sin.....ie. total separation from God.

But Jesus had never ever been separated from His Father before....they had always been together in each other's presence. Imagine what the dread of having that relationship broken would feel like, if you had never experienced it.....and think of His cry on the cross: 'My Father, why have you forsaken me?'

That was the cup He referred to- He knew it was going to happen, and that was worse than all the pain He was going to experience physically. That was why, being in human form, He begged the Father to release Him from the necessity of it- but accepted that, if it was the only way, He would endure it, for our sake.

We serve an amazing God!Consider the portion that I bolded for emphasis. What was it that Jesus told Nicodemus about heavenly and earthly things?

John 3:
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

To me this mention of the cup and the price He had to pay, is a glimpse into a heavenly thing. As Kimilmela points out in the bold text. Jesus had always been with the Father, He knew exactly how much it would hurt Him to be separated from Him.

Now here is the next question. Why do we see so many that have no fear of God before their eyes? Jesus has shown us how terrible the wrath of God is, knowing it Himself.

Think of it like this. You know what your dad will do to your brother or sister if they disobey him. You try to tell this sibling what will happen. It is up to them to listen to you. But how do you convince that sibling that the wrath of your dad for doing this, is not worth the effort to do this wrong deed?

Mograce2U
Dec 15th 2007, 04:48 PM
When Jesus cries out upon the cross, He is pointing us to Psalm 22. As David often does in the Psalms, he begins with his distress and moves on to his hope in God. Jesus in His human distress upon the cross does the same. But God had not left Him, rather His trust and hope was in the truth that God the Father would keep His soul alive.

From the same cross, Jesus also qutoes from Ps 31

(Psa 31:5 KJV) Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

In facing death it only seems like the Lord is not with us, but this is far from the truth. A point David reminds himself of and Jesus emphasizes for us.

ServantofTruth
Dec 15th 2007, 04:57 PM
What was in the cup? My future.:hug:

9Marksfan
Dec 15th 2007, 05:40 PM
I agree with Brother Mark - this is one of the best threads on the forum at present! No arguments, no posturing - just really devotional, meditating upon the most awesome act of love and grace this world has ever seen!

I never knew about the Jewish custom about the groom paying the price for a bride and drinking the cup - excellent! :)

Ta-An
Dec 15th 2007, 06:00 PM
I never knew about the Jewish custom about the groom paying the price for a bride and drinking the cup - excellent! :)
Just on a side note ::
We in South Africa have a similar custom amongst the African folk.... it is called : "Lobola" The price the groom has to pay to the father of the bride... payed in cows, or oxen, or goats, or sheep :) some fathers demands cash.... you have to remember that most of the Africans are poorer people, and price of $7000 can set them back quite a bit. This lobola is to reimburse the father for money he spent on the education of his daughter,,, the better the education, ( the more of value the daughter) the higher the lobolla is set at.

Compare this to Jewish tradition...... the value of the bride equals His (Yeshua G_d) life ..........

CoffeeBeaned
Dec 17th 2007, 09:24 PM
This brought to mind the following verse:

This is what the LORD says: "If those who do not deserve to drink the cup must drink it, why should you go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, but must drink it. - Jeremiah 49:12

By all accounts, we should have to drink the cup of God's wrath as we deserve to. But there is one who does not deserve it but will choose to drink it.

9Marksfan
Dec 20th 2007, 04:19 PM
This brought to mind the following verse:

This is what the LORD says: "If those who do not deserve to drink the cup must drink it, why should you go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, but must drink it. - Jeremiah 49:12

By all accounts, we should have to drink the cup of God's wrath as we deserve to. But there is one who does not deserve it but will choose to drink it.

AWESOME!!! This thread just gets better and better!:pp

Soj
Dec 20th 2007, 10:52 PM
By all accounts, we should have to drink the cup of God's wrath as we deserve to. But there is one who does not deserve it but will choose to drink it.Before we were saved yes:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

After we were saved no:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Scruffy Kid
Dec 21st 2007, 12:58 AM
With others -- Br. Mark, 9Marksfan, and others -- who have commented, I commend dljc for a terrific and valuable thread! And I quite agree in valuing the many good contributions by ACCM, kimilmela and others.

I thought it might be helpful in wieghing various elements of the question to set the question of this cup in somewhat systematic context.


Biblical Data

By my count, the (English) word cup (or cupbearer) appears some 65 times (in the KJV / AV). I'd like to do a search on the orig. language words, but my program that does that's not available just now. These 65 times are relatively easy to classify.

5 times are the references that start the discussion, Jesus' "let this cup pass" [Matt 26:39, 26:42, Mark 14:36, Luke 22:42, John 18:11]

24 seem to be largely irrelevant, without fancy interpretation either just mentions of cups that happen to come up in the Bible (16, 14 in the OT), or else hard to classify without further research. (8, 3 in the OT) [Gen. 40:11, 40:13, 40:21, 44:2, 44:12, 44:16-17, II Sam 12:3, I Kings 7:26, 10:5, I Chron 28:17, II Chron 4:5, 9:4, Neh. 1:11, Jer 52:9, Mark 7:4, 7:8] & [Prov. 23:31, Jer 16:7, 35:5, Matt 23:25-6, Matt 10:42, Mark 9:41, Luke 11:39]

22 seem to refer to something like the cup of judgment or God's wrath (14 OT). [Ps. 11:6, 75:8, Is. 51:17, Is 51:22, Jer. 25:15, 25:17, Jer 25:28, Jer 49:12, Ezek. 23:31-33, Lam. 4:21, Hab. 2:!6, Zech 12:2, Matt 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39, Rev. 14:10, Rev. 16:19, 17:4, 18:16 & Jer 51:7]

14 seem to refer to a cup of blessing, generally (4, in Psalms) or the Eucharistic cup (10, 4 in the gospels, 6 in I Corinthians) [Ps. 16:5, 23:5, 73:10, 116:13; Matt 26:27, Mark 14:23, Luke 22:17, 22:20, I Cor. 10:16, 10:21, 11:25-28]


Caveats and interpretive alternatives to weigh
These are not based upon carefully cross-checked references and close readings of the passages: they are just first-cut attempts to locate and classify the usages of "cup". Arguably, among the usages which seem to speak in more general terms relevent to interpreting Jesus' remarks in Gethsemene, about 60% are cups of wrath, 40% cups of blessing.

In addition to these internal Scriptural witnesses, of course, the historical/sociological info ACCM gives us about Jewish custom of the day adds another important interpretive light.

In addition, Jesus' words might not have been closely tied to any of the Scriptural or Jewish customary contexts.

jesuslover1968
Dec 22nd 2007, 12:36 AM
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=830071922136


as close as you can get to the truth of what was in the cup, and what it really means. Please take the time to listen to the whole sermon.
God Bless.

brandonspopo
Dec 22nd 2007, 08:07 PM
This is great. As I'm reading the posts, I have an idea that I want to put in. But then wham, some one else says it. I'm impressed with the depth of research and knowledge that is being displayed here.:cool:

threebigrocks
Dec 23rd 2007, 04:20 AM
This is great. As I'm reading the posts, I have an idea that I want to put in. But then wham, some one else says it. I'm impressed with the depth of research and knowledge that is being displayed here.:cool:

Yep, I'm in the same boat as you!

Best thing is - it's only a wee bit of the goodness and truth of our hope of salvation. :)

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2007, 05:00 AM
I will try to quote the verses on this thread when I am at home again. But something I want to point out again and see where it leads. Jesus asked his disciples "Are you able to drink from the same cup I drink from?" and they responded "yes Lord". He then agreed that they were able and would drink from it.

There is more to the cup than the wrath of God thought I believe that to be part of it. It is also the cross and putting to death the carnal mind. Everyone that wants to know and experience Jesus will have a Gethsemene experience. Each of us must drink of the same cup that Jesus drank from, though for us, we will not experience his wrath.

dljc
Dec 23rd 2007, 04:33 PM
There is more to the cup than the wrath of God thought I believe that to be part of it. It is also the cross and putting to death the carnal mind. Everyone that wants to know and experience Jesus will have a Gethsemene experience. Each of us must drink of the same cup that Jesus drank from, though for us, we will not experience his wrath.Excellent point Brother Mark, through the cup we can see two things.

1) The wrath of God

2) The love of God

To some this would seem contradictory; but look at what Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

As Christians this is the basis for our foundation, that Jesus lived, died on the cross, and was resurrected three days later. We recognize that He paid for our sins by taking them all on, and suffering the wrath of God in our place. :pp This is the price He has paid for the bride as ACCM was pointing out in her post about the cup being a part of a marriage ceremony. Jesus drinking the cup was His agreement that He would pay the highest price for this bride.

Which leads us to the second one "The love of God". Which points to John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This is just how much God loves us. That He would give His only begotten Son. To pay the price for our iniquities.

Hebrews 12:
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Jesus endured the cross for everyone who will believe in Him. This is part of the salvation message (John 3:15). Jesus is the finisher of our faith. If we will do as He asked, "Take up our cross and follow Him".

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Are you up to the task at hand? He never said it would be easy. He only said that HIS yoke was easy and HIS burden is light. (Matthew 11:30)

Mograce2U
Dec 23rd 2007, 06:23 PM
The cross that we take up is to die to self that we might serve the brethren in the same self sacrificing love which Jesus has shed abroad in our hearts. This yoke of His love/grace/mercy/kindness that couples us to Him in serving the brethren is an easy yoke to carry. The hard part in taking up our cross is in dying to self!

9Marksfan
Dec 23rd 2007, 06:47 PM
I will try to quote the verses on this thread when I am at home again. But something I want to point out again and see where it leads. Jesus asked his disciples "Are you able to drink from the same cup I drink from?" and they responded "yes Lord". He then agreed that they were able and would drink from it.

There is more to the cup than the wrath of God thought I believe that to be part of it. It is also the cross and putting to death the carnal mind. Everyone that wants to know and experience Jesus will have a Gethsemene experience. Each of us must drink of the same cup that Jesus drank from, though for us, we will not experience his wrath.

Yes, this is an interesting point - I think it may mean that the disciples would drink the cup (a) by being united by Christ in His death (Rom 6); (b) by suffering and dying for their faith in Him (which (I think) they all did).

CoffeeBeaned
Dec 23rd 2007, 11:57 PM
Yes, this is an interesting point - I think it may mean that the disciples would drink the cup (a) by being united by Christ in His death (Rom 6); (b) by suffering and dying for their faith in Him (which (I think) they all did).

Yes, I agree. I believe in saying that they would drink the same cup, that they would die for their faith. I'm not certain but I believe that every one of the twelve other than John was martyred for the faith.

9Marksfan
Dec 24th 2007, 09:32 AM
Yes, I agree. I believe in saying that they would drink the same cup, that they would die for their faith. I'm not certain but I believe that every one of the twelve other than John was martyred for the faith.

Thanks, CoffeeBeaned - I knew there was one exception! :)

tango
Dec 24th 2007, 09:57 AM
In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus prayed before He was taken captive, that led to His trial and crucifixion. What was in the cup that He prayed and asked twice to let this cup pass from Him.

The idea of this study is to consider what was in the cup. I'd like your comments on what you think it was. Understanding this can help us better understand all that He did for us.

Coming a little late to the party but what the heck...

The concept of the cup of suffering would be my short standard answer. But someone else already said that and you asked for more detail so I won't try and get away with that one :):)

I assume we all know that Jesus was rejected and suffered horribly for us.

Nowadays we have these rather quaint figurines of Christ on the cross, with a neat little circlet around his head with one or two thorns in it, a loincloth wrapped around him, and with Christ himself bearing an expression that suggests he's just a little disappointed at how it all turned out.

The reality was certainly far far harsher than we care to depict in modern artwork. Nails thrust through wrists and ankles, a jumble of thorns pressed onto his head, stripped and beaten, mocked by the guards (Mat 26:67-68) and had everything he owned divided up by the guards by casting lots (May 27:35). Crucifixion was a truly agonising death, the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion) on it describes how the condemned man would shift their weight from one painful position to another.

Not only was the actual physical death about as unpleasant a way to die as it's possible to imagine, Christ was also utterly rejected and despised, even denied by his disciples (Mat 26:69-75). Isaiah prophesied just how bad things would be for Jesus:


Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Isa 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
Isa 53:9 And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.


As well as the physical and emotional suffering of Christ, he must also have suffered spiritually. If Jesus was to bear our punishment on our behalf that meant he had to be separated from God. Romans 6:23 teaches us that "the wages of sin is death", so Jesus had to die in every way possible to bear our punishment.

When Jesus shouted to God on the cross (Mat 27:46), he cried out "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?", which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". How could God have forsaken Jesus, other than to cast him into Hell, to turn his face away from his only begotten son, to condemn Jesus as we deserve God to condemn us? For Jesus himself, who had walked so closely with God since for his entire life and who had been God's representative on the earth, to be turned away from God must have been the worst thing of all.

CoffeeBeaned
Dec 26th 2007, 05:38 PM
For Jesus himself, who had walked so closely with God since for his entire life and who had been God's representative on the earth, to be turned away from God must have been the worst thing of all.

I agree. I always tear up when I read the account in Matthew 28:36-44. He must have not only known the physical pain he was about to endure but the intense spiritual pain. I believe that that is what he really was praying would be taken from him.

Mograce2U
Dec 26th 2007, 05:43 PM
Coming a little late to the party but what the heck...

The concept of the cup of suffering would be my short standard answer. But someone else already said that and you asked for more detail so I won't try and get away with that one :):)

I assume we all know that Jesus was rejected and suffered horribly for us.

Nowadays we have these rather quaint figurines of Christ on the cross, with a neat little circlet around his head with one or two thorns in it, a loincloth wrapped around him, and with Christ himself bearing an expression that suggests he's just a little disappointed at how it all turned out.

The reality was certainly far far harsher than we care to depict in modern artwork. Nails thrust through wrists and ankles, a jumble of thorns pressed onto his head, stripped and beaten, mocked by the guards (Mat 26:67-68) and had everything he owned divided up by the guards by casting lots (May 27:35). Crucifixion was a truly agonising death, the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion) on it describes how the condemned man would shift their weight from one painful position to another.

Not only was the actual physical death about as unpleasant a way to die as it's possible to imagine, Christ was also utterly rejected and despised, even denied by his disciples (Mat 26:69-75). Isaiah prophesied just how bad things would be for Jesus:

As well as the physical and emotional suffering of Christ, he must also have suffered spiritually. If Jesus was to bear our punishment on our behalf that meant he had to be separated from God. Romans 6:23 teaches us that "the wages of sin is death", so Jesus had to die in every way possible to bear our punishment.

When Jesus shouted to God on the cross (Mat 27:46), he cried out "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?", which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". How could God have forsaken Jesus, other than to cast him into Hell, to turn his face away from his only begotten son, to condemn Jesus as we deserve God to condemn us? For Jesus himself, who had walked so closely with God since for his entire life and who had been God's representative on the earth, to be turned away from God must have been the worst thing of all.
(1 Cor 12:3 KJV) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

With that verse in mind, perhaps we ought to read Psalm 22 which Jesus is quoting. David looked upon his earthly afflictions and in his humanity thought that God was far from him, but as he reflects upon the promises of God, sees that God has neither left him nor forsaken him. This is what Jesus wants us to see this as well, even though at the cross it certainly seemed to be the case.

He also says this from the cross:

(Luke 23:46 KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus knew He was safe in the hands of His Father who would never leave Him nor forsake Him and certainly was not going to destroy His Spirit.

9Marksfan
Dec 27th 2007, 10:50 AM
(1 Cor 12:3 KJV) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

With that verse in mind, perhaps we ought to read Psalm 22 which Jesus is quoting. David looked upon his earthly afflictions and in his humanity thought that God was far from him, but as he reflects upon the promises of God, sees that God has neither left him nor forsaken him. This is what Jesus wants us to see this as well, even though at the cross it certainly seemed to be the case.

He also says this from the cross:

(Luke 23:46 KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus knew He was safe in the hands of His Father who would never leave Him nor forsake Him and certainly was not going to destroy His Spirit.

I disagree. Paul is not meaning that in 1 Cor 12:3 - I believe that he is referring to an expression in tongues where what is actually being said is "Jesus be accursed" - that "tongue" could never be from the Spirit of God.

Paul makes it clear elsewhere that Jesus WAS accursed on the cross:-

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree' - " Gal 3:13 ESV

Jesus was able to speak as He did because by that stage the work of salvation had been completed - "It is finished."!

Mograce2U
Dec 27th 2007, 02:27 PM
I disagree. Paul is not meaning that in 1 Cor 12:3 - I believe that he is referring to an expression in tongues where what is actually been said is "Jesus be accursed" - that "tongue" could neverr be from the Spirit of God.

Paul makes it clear elsewher that Jesus WAS accursed on the cross:-

"Christ redeemed us from the curde of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree' - " Gal 3:13 ESV

Jesus was able to speak as He did because by that stage the work of salvation had been completed - "It is finished."!Being cursed in this life is not the same as saying that Jesus was destroyed in Spirit in order to meet God's requirement for our salvation. Physical death was the requirement that He met for us because He would live thru it by the power of God. Jesus has never not ceased to exist and to say that He did - even momentarily, in my opinion is blasphemy = calling Him accursed by God.

CoffeeBeaned
Dec 27th 2007, 02:55 PM
Being cursed in this life is not the same as saying that Jesus was destroyed in Spirit in order to meet God's requirement for our salvation. Physical death was the requirement that He met for us because He would live thru it by the power of God. Jesus has never not ceased to exist and to say that He did - even momentarily, in my opinion is blasphemy = calling Him accursed by God.

I'm not sure I read that anyone said he ceased to exist. But that he was "cursed" in that he was separated from God when he took our sins upon himself. I believe that this was also part of the price that had to be paid for our sins. This was the "cup of wrath" that Jesus chose to drink on our behalf.

Mograce2U
Dec 27th 2007, 04:43 PM
I'm not sure I read that anyone said he ceased to exist. But that he was "cursed" in that he was separated from God when he took our sins upon himself. I believe that this was also part of the price that had to be paid for our sins. This was the "cup of wrath" that Jesus chose to drink on our behalf.How can we say that the One who promised to never leave nor forsake us, to be with us always, could separate Himself from the Oneness of the Godhead of which He was? Ps 22 is clear to me that death may SEEM like the Lord has forsaken us but the truth is that our life is in His safe hands - at all times. It is only physical life which dies to rid us of this body of flesh which sin has defiled. Jesus possessed eternal life before the cross and has never lost hold of it. That is why we have hope in our death if we too possess this life NOW.

9Marksfan
Dec 28th 2007, 09:25 AM
Being cursed in this life is not the same as saying that Jesus was destroyed in Spirit in order to meet God's requirement for our salvation. Physical death was the requirement that He met for us because He would live thru it by the power of God. Jesus has never not ceased to exist and to say that He did - even momentarily, in my opinion is blasphemy = calling Him accursed by God.

So is Paul guilty of blasphemy in Gal 3:13 then?

Like CoffeeBeaned, I don't understand your first sentence - when Christ was dying on the cross, He died as our substitute - we had broken the law of God and such transgression demanded punishment in order for God's justice to be satisfied - that would have happened if Christ had never come and died - but every single human being who had ever lived would be condemned to Hell for all eternity. But God desired to be merciful and to save a people for Himself - how could this happen without His justice being compromised? One had to die in our place - His perfect Son, Jesus - this is the glorious message of the cross - penal substitution, which you appear to be calling blasphemy!

If you think I'm misinterpreting Gal 3:13, I'd like to hear your understanding of it, as well as these verses:-

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him". 2 Cor 5:21 NKJV

"For what the law could not do in that it was weak though the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh" Rom 8:3 NKJV

"whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus". Rom 3:25 NKJV

"But he was wounded for our trangressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Is 53:5, 6 NKJV

9Marksfan
Dec 28th 2007, 09:35 AM
How can we say that the One who promised to never leave nor forsake us, to be with us always, could separate Himself from the Oneness of the Godhead of which He was?

But it is precisely BECAUSE the Son was forsaken by the Father on the cross that that promise can be true for all who believe! It's only because of what was achieved on the cross (Christ bearing the punishment for our sins once and for all) that God can be merciful to us!


Ps 22 is clear to me that death may SEEM like the Lord has forsaken us but the truth is that our life is in His safe hands - at all times. It is only physical life which dies to rid us of this body of flesh which sin has defiled. Jesus possessed eternal life before the cross and has never lost hold of it. That is why we have hope in our death if we too possess this life NOW.

I can see where you are coming from but I think you seem to be unaware of the ultimate purpose of the cross - it wasn't just that Jesus overcame death and therefore, if we are in Him, so will we (although that is certainly true) - it is the fact that Christ died to take the penalty for our sins (God's judgement, by the way - not just physical death!)!

Ps 22 is speaking of Jesus on the cross until the end of v21 "You have answered Me" - what was the answer? The resurrection!!!

jeffweeder
Dec 28th 2007, 10:12 AM
I can see where you are coming from but I think you seem to be unaware of the ultimate purpose of the cross - it wasn't just that Jesus overcame death and therefore, if we are in Him, so will we (although that is certainly true) - it is the fact that Christ died to take the penalty for our sins (God's judgement, by the way - not just physical death!)!

We could take this a step further and say that God has dealt with why we have sin .
This has to do with me, the sinner.- The real problem.
I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

9Marksfan
Dec 28th 2007, 12:01 PM
We could take this a step further and say that God has dealt with why we have sin .
This has to do with me, the sinner.- The real problem.
I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

Amen! There are so many levels/angles of what Christ accomplished on the cross for us to marvel at! Thanks, bro'!

Brother Mark
Dec 28th 2007, 12:57 PM
From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. When Jesus was on the cross, what did he say about his crucifixion? Not much. But what did he say he didn't like?

"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? I thirst!"

When the Living Water above was separated from the Living Water below, Jesus thirsted for the first time ever. After telling the woman at the well in John 4 she would never thirst again, Jesus did thirst again.

Jesus did not want to drink the cup of separation from the Father.

9Marksfan
Dec 28th 2007, 02:14 PM
From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. When Jesus was on the cross, what did he say about his crucifixion? Not much. But what did he say he didn't like?

"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? I thirst!"

When the Living Water above was separated from the Living Water below, Jesus thirsted for the first time ever. After telling the woman at the well in John 4 she would never thirst again, Jesus did thirst again.

Jesus did not want to drink the cup of separation from the Father.

Brother Mark, I am BLOWN AWAY by that! I'd NEVER seen that before! Thanks! This thread is truly AMAZING!!!!

CoffeeBeaned
Dec 28th 2007, 05:12 PM
When the Living Water above was separated from the Living Water below, Jesus thirsted for the first time ever. After telling the woman at the well in John 4 she would never thirst again, Jesus did thirst again.
Jesus did not want to drink the cup of separation from the Father.

This is so true. I never thought of it in this way. Thanks for pointing that out.

Mograce2U
Dec 28th 2007, 05:19 PM
From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. When Jesus was on the cross, what did he say about his crucifixion? Not much. But what did he say he didn't like?

"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? I thirst!"

When the Living Water above was separated from the Living Water below, Jesus thirsted for the first time ever. After telling the woman at the well in John 4 she would never thirst again, Jesus did thirst again.

Jesus did not want to drink the cup of separation from the Father.But then you have this passage which says otherwise about what transpired on the cross:

(2 Cor 5:18-21 KJV) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; {19} To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. {20} Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. {21} For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So far no one else has commented on what it is that Psalm 22 is saying.

CoffeeBeaned
Dec 28th 2007, 05:31 PM
So far no one else has commented on what it is that Psalm 22 is saying.

I believe that Christ brought our attention to two items by pointing us to Psalm 22.

1. That he was forsaken by God for our sin on the cross (this is what we've been discussing)

2. That he is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Psalm 22.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:


14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax; [water and blood poured from his side]
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones; [none of his bones were broken]
people stare and gloat over me. 18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

Mograce2U
Dec 28th 2007, 05:53 PM
Hi Coffeebeaned,
Lets look at the first section you omitted above:


Psalm 22

(Psa 22:1-5 KJV) To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? {2} O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. {3} But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. {4} Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. {5} They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

(1)David starts out by declaring his feelings that God has forsaken him because He seems so far from helping him. (2)And he mentions his continual crying out to God in prayer which he feels as though God has not heard because He has not yet answered him. In other Psalms, David delights in the Lord because He answers his prayers and this why David puts his trust in God. (3) Then David reminds himself of the holy nature of God whom he knows inhabits the praises of Israel - His chosen people. (4-5) Because of this they trusted in Him and were delivered in their troubles. He has experience of God's faithfulness to draw upon during this troublesome time, and so he turns himself to faith in God who he knows is faithful. David has thus successfully turned from despair at the feeling of being forsaken, to his hope in God who will save him; and is now able to praise God as he has corrected his wrong feelings.

Focusing upon the truth about God is what has turned him around and given him hope.

Brother Mark
Dec 28th 2007, 06:03 PM
Brother Mark, I am BLOWN AWAY by that! I'd NEVER seen that before! Thanks! This thread is truly AMAZING!!!!

The second day of creation was the only day that God created something but did not say "it is good". The second day was when the waters above were separated from the waters below. God did not say that separation was good.

CoffeeBeaned
Dec 28th 2007, 06:16 PM
Focusing upon the truth about God is what has turned him around and given him hope.

Agreed, but I was talking about why I believe Christ pointed us to that Psalm. I wasn't necessarily looking at the Psalm in itself just in relationship to the crucifixion.

Mograce2U
Dec 28th 2007, 06:18 PM
From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. When Jesus was on the cross, what did he say about his crucifixion? Not much. But what did he say he didn't like?

"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? I thirst!"

When the Living Water above was separated from the Living Water below, Jesus thirsted for the first time ever. After telling the woman at the well in John 4 she would never thirst again, Jesus did thirst again.

Jesus did not want to drink the cup of separation from the Father.
(John 19:28-29 KJV) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. {29} Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

John never misses an opportunity to point us to fulfilled prophecy either - and here he refers us to Psalm 69.

CoffeeBeaned
Dec 28th 2007, 06:22 PM
Psalm 69:4 also prophesies -

Those who hate me without reason
outnumber the hairs of my head;
many are my enemies without cause,
those who seek to destroy me.
I am forced to restore
what I did not steal.

Again, we see that he took the guilt that was ours. Praise God!

9Marksfan
Dec 28th 2007, 09:13 PM
But then you have this passage which says otherwise about what transpired on the cross:

(2 Cor 5:18-21 KJV) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; {19} To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. {20} Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. {21} For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

That was another aspect of what was being accomplished on the cross - we could not be reconciled to God (and vice versa, for we were His enemies as well us Him being ours) unless Christ died in our place and was made sin for us.


So far no one else has commented on what it is that Psalm 22 is saying.

It is a prophecy of Messiah's sufferings and subsequent exaltation - what more do you need to know?

9Marksfan
Dec 28th 2007, 09:19 PM
The second day of creation was the only day that God created something but did not say "it is good". The second day was when the waters above were separated from the waters below. God did not say that separation was good.

WOW!!! ANOTHER new truth!!!!! :o

Thanks again!

9Marksfan
Dec 28th 2007, 09:20 PM
Psalm 69:4 also prophesies -

Those who hate me without reason
outnumber the hairs of my head;
many are my enemies without cause,
those who seek to destroy me.
I am forced to restore
what I did not steal.

Again, we see that he took the guilt that was ours. Praise God!

Fantastic point, CoffeeBeaned! :pp

9Marksfan
Dec 28th 2007, 09:23 PM
Hi Coffeebeaned,
Lets look at the first section you omitted above:


Psalm 22

(Psa 22:1-5 KJV) To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? {2} O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. {3} But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. {4} Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. {5} They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

(1)David starts out by declaring his feelings that God has forsaken him because He seems so far from helping him. (2)And he mentions his continual crying out to God in prayer which he feels as though God has not heard because He has not yet answered him. In other Psalms, David delights in the Lord because He answers his prayers and this why David puts his trust in God. (3) Then David reminds himself of the holy nature of God whom he knows inhabits the praises of Israel - His chosen people. (4-5) Because of this they trusted in Him and were delivered in their troubles. He has experience of God's faithfulness to draw upon during this troublesome time, and so he turns himself to faith in God who he knows is faithful. David has thus successfully turned from despair at the feeling of being forsaken, to his hope in God who will save him; and is now able to praise God as he has corrected his wrong feelings.

Focusing upon the truth about God is what has turned him around and given him hope.

That's true, as far as David is concerned, but it's CLEARLY a Messianic psalm, prohesying in AMAZING detail what would happen at the cross - and it's cited as such in more than one place in the NT.

If Christ was not forsaken by God on the cross, then you will have to bear the punishment of your own sin, because Jesus did not do that on your behalf - are you ready for that?

Brother Mark
Dec 28th 2007, 10:34 PM
Psalm 69:4 also prophesies -

Those who hate me without reason
outnumber the hairs of my head;
many are my enemies without cause,
those who seek to destroy me.
I am forced to restore
what I did not steal.

Again, we see that he took the guilt that was ours. Praise God!

Ooo. I like this. Thanks for sharing.

Brother Mark
Dec 28th 2007, 10:35 PM
Ever consider who did the killing? "The bulls of bashan surround me..." Psalms 22 is full of great stuff.

Ta-An
Dec 29th 2007, 07:55 AM
I was looking for scripture this morning about G-D being my defense, and I read this scripture : Isaiah 51:22Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: 23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.


Christ drank the cup of G_d's fury that is set apart for sinners,,,, Christ drank that cup on our behalf.... He paid the price for our sin, so that we can belong to Him, to be His very own, to be His bride :)

Soj
Dec 29th 2007, 08:01 AM
"The bulls of bashan surround me..." Psalms 22 is full of great stuff.Amen. He triumphed over them on the cross, spoiled them, and made a public show of them...

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2007, 02:41 PM
Amen. He triumphed over them on the cross, spoiled them, and made a public show of them...

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Amen! He did indeed!

When God was angry with Israel, He raised up the Babylonians. When he poured out his wrath on Jesus, he allowed Jesus enemies to kill him. But in reality, it was their undoing. Just as God broke the rod he used against Israel, he also broke the rod he used against Jesus.

Mograce2U
Dec 29th 2007, 02:50 PM
That's true, as far as David is concerned, but it's CLEARLY a Messianic psalm, prohesying in AMAZING detail what would happen at the cross - and it's cited as such in more than one place in the NT.

If Christ was not forsaken by God on the cross, then you will have to bear the punishment of your own sin, because Jesus did not do that on your behalf - are you ready for that?
The penalty for sin is death which first brought separation from God. Death was revealed to Adam as being what he would suffer if he disobeyed the command given him by God. That he would lose the glory of God first, only makes sense in how that death would come about. Adam WAS therefore the one who suffered a spiritual death first and his physical death then followed. This two-fold aspect of death is what would leave him totally separated from God forever.

But Christ only had to pay the penalty with His physical life since that was what God required in order to bring spiritual life back to man. He survived that death because the Spirit of God was in Him - because He as the last Adam knew no sin - therefore He retained His spiritual life thru the physical death His body suffered: taking victory over death.

With justice having been met, man could be forgiven and given the seed of eternal life - the Holy Spirit, to restore his relationship to God. With that seed in him, he too can survive the death of his body - just like Jesus did.

There has never been any point in time or eternity when Jesus was not part of the Godhead - only His body died. And not even that long enough to see corruption. You must be born again in this life, so that His life in you will bring you safely into the kingdom.

There was no reason for Jesus to die spiritually to meet the justice of God, because that had already happened to Adam. What Adam was not able to do as a result, was to survive his own death. Jesus however could, because eternal life was in Him, and this is the same life He gives to us.

If God the Father forsook Jesus on the cross then His words to us that He will never leave nor forsake us leaves us without proof this is true. The resurrection of Jesus IS our proof that His word can be trusted.

Brother Mark
Dec 29th 2007, 03:15 PM
The penalty for sin is death which first brought separation from God. Death was revealed to Adam as being what he would suffer if he disobeyed the command given him by God. That he would lose the glory of God first, only makes sense in how that death would come about. Adam WAS therefore the one who suffered a spiritual death first and his physical death then followed. This two-fold aspect of death is what would leave him totally separated from God forever.

But Christ only had to pay the penalty with His physical life since that was what God required in order to bring spiritual life back to man. He survived that death because the Spirit of God was in Him - because He as the last Adam knew no sin - therefore He retained His spiritual life thru the physical death His body suffered: taking victory over death.

With justice having been met, man could be forgiven and given the seed of eternal life - the Holy Spirit, to restore his relationship to God. With that seed in him, he too can survive the death of his body - just like Jesus did.

There has never been any point in time or eternity when Jesus was not part of the Godhead - only His body died. And not even that long enough to see corruption. You must be born again in this life, so that His life in you will bring you safely into the kingdom.

There was no reason for Jesus to die spiritually to meet the justice of God, because that had already happened to Adam. What Adam was not able to do as a result, was to survive his own death. Jesus however could, because eternal life was in Him, and this is the same life He gives to us.

If God the Father forsook Jesus on the cross then His words to us that He will never leave nor forsake us leaves us without proof this is true. The resurrection of Jesus IS our proof that His word can be trusted.

The Godhead never was severed in the sense of relationship or oneness. But fellowship was broken on the cross, hence the word separation. When Jesus became sin, his fellowship with the Father was broken.

Yet, the Psalmist said he would not be abandoned in the grave. Jesus knew he was being turned over to the enemy and felt abandoned. But in the end, he knew he was not.


As for the argument about not being forsaken requiring proof, that doesn't really stand up. We know we will not be exposed to God's wrath because Jesus was exposed to his wrath. In the same way, we can know God will never leave us nor forsake us because of what Jesus endured for our sake.

Mograce2U
Dec 29th 2007, 04:59 PM
The Godhead never was severed in the sense of relationship or oneness. But fellowship was broken on the cross, hence the word separation. When Jesus became sin, his fellowship with the Father was broken.

Where is the verse to support that idea? I don't see that their fellowship was ever broken. In His humanity, it certainly seemed that was the case, but Ps 22 shows us that was not the truth.

Yet, the Psalmist said he would not be abandoned in the grave. Jesus knew he was being turned over to the enemy and felt abandoned. But in the end, he knew he was not.

And just before Peter quotes from Ps 16 he says this:

(Acts 2:24 KJV) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

As for the argument about not being forsaken requiring proof, that doesn't really stand up. We know we will not be exposed to God's wrath because Jesus was exposed to his wrath. In the same way, we can know God will never leave us nor forsake us because of what Jesus endured for our sake.To say that God did forsake Jesus must be qualified then, because what some are saying in here is that God left Him so He could die a spiritual death, which if He committed His Spirit into the Father's hands is obviously not what transpired on the cross.

Friend of I AM
Dec 29th 2007, 05:55 PM
This is an interesting discussion on many levels. Allow me to add a few words. The Lord did indeed forsake himself, however, in forsaking himself upon the cross - he once again was demonstrating his faithfulness to himself as well as to his people. Allow me to extrapolate on this using scripture.


2 Timothy 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny himself.

John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

From reading John 1:1 we can see that Jesus is/was God. By following the command's of the Father, he once again demonstrated that being God, God will always be faithful/obedient to himself and not deny himself of what he has promised to do. We must be careful in the way in which we word God having forsaken himself. God is always faithful to himself - as demonstrated through the sacrafice of his son.

It is also important to note that one can experience God's wrath if we deny Christ's sacrifice as being an atonement for mankind's sins, or likewise - if our life is not demonstrative of having accepted the sacrafice through our words/actions/heart.

Mograce2U
Dec 29th 2007, 07:24 PM
This is an interesting discussion on many levels. Allow me to add a few words. The Lord did indeed forsake himself, however, in forsaking himself upon the cross - he once again was demonstrating his faithfulness to himself as well as to his people. Allow me to extrapolate on this using scripture.


2 Timothy 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny himself.

John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Thanks - This one right here shows that the Spirit of God - His power, never left Jesus. What He laid down at the cross was His human life, and that is what died because that is all that COULD die.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

From reading John 1:1 we can see that Jesus is/was God. By following the command's of the Father, he once again demonstrated that being God, God will always be faithful/obedient to himself and not deny himself of what he has promised to do. We must be careful in the way in which we word God having forsaken himself. God is always faithful to himself - as demonstrated through the sacrafice of his son.

It is also important to note that one can experience God's wrath if we deny Christ's sacrifice as being an atonement for mankind's sins, or likewise - if our life is not demonstrative of having accepted the sacrafice through our words/actions/heart.
.................................

amazzin
Dec 29th 2007, 07:27 PM
.................................

Reply is required:
What does your post mean?

Friend of I AM
Dec 29th 2007, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by MoGrace2u
Thanks - This one right here shows that the Spirit of God - His power, never left Jesus. What He laid down at the cross was His human life, and that is what died because that is all that COULD die.


This is really a tough one. This is my thought on the matter. You are correct - the spirit of God is eternal, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent and it cannot die. Jesus's human life is what he gave up, but I do indeed think that he gave up the spirit itself which he possessed - or perhaps the better wording is that he allowed his Father to take away the spirit from him so he could become sin on the cross, and take the full brunt of God's wrath.

So thus I think it was this spirit which Jesus was crying out to when he said "My God my God why has thou forsaken me?" This was Jesus's human side expressing the loss of communnion with the Father through the Spirit. Now being that Jesus was in full command to give up his Spirit, he was also in full command to receive it back. Being God - he had already ordained for this to happen. This is what brought about him being resurrected. The spirit returned to Jesus's dead human body and resurrected it - much like it will with ours upon the ressurrection. If he didn't completely give up his Spirit on the cross, then there would be no way for him to resurrect us to life through his Spirit.


Hope this helps clarify things.

Stephen

9Marksfan
Dec 29th 2007, 10:37 PM
This is really a tough one. This is my thought on the matter. You are correct - the spirit of God is eternal, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent and it cannot die. Jesus's human life is what he gave up, but I do indeed think that he gave up the spirit itself which he possessed - or perhaps the better wording is that he allowed his Father to take away the spirit from him so he could become sin on the cross, and take the full brunt of God's wrath.

But his VERY last words were "Father, into your hands I commit My spirit" - Luke says it was after He had cried out with a loud voice - this has to be the "It is finished" in Jn 19:30 - so the work of salvation was finished and yet God's Spirit was with Him throughout the experience - indeed Heb 9:14 tells us "how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God?"


So thus I think it was this spirit which Jesus was crying out to when he said "My God my God why has thou forsaken me?" This was Jesus's human side expressing the loss of communnion with the Father through the Spirit.

Agreed.


Now being that Jesus was in full command to give up his Spirit, he was also in full command to receive it back. Being God - he had already ordained for this to happen. This is what brought about him being resurrected.

Great point - we often forget how much God's Spirit was also involved in Christ's death and resurrection:-

"For Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit" 1 Pet 3:18 NKJV



The spirit returned to Jesus's dead human body and resurrected it - much like it will with ours upon the ressurrection. If he didn't completely give up his Spirit on the cross, then there would be no way for him to resurrect us to life through his Spirit.

Interesting observation - had never thought of it that way before - thanks!


Hope this helps clarify things.


Stephen

Thanks for your post - but would you please call the Spirit "He"? - He IS the Third PERSON of the Godhead, after all! :)

9Marksfan
Dec 29th 2007, 10:43 PM
To say that God did forsake Jesus must be qualified then, because what some are saying in here is that God left Him so He could die a spiritual death, which if He committed His Spirit into the Father's hands is obviously not what transpired on the cross.

There is great mystery to what happened on the cross - but you have avoided answering my questions - please can you answer directly:-

Do you believe that all mankind must face judgement after death (Heb 9:27)?

Do you beleive Jesus was bearing the full wrath of God for our sins on the cross?

Friend of I AM
Dec 29th 2007, 11:19 PM
But his VERY last words were "Father, into your hands I commit My spirit" - Luke says it was after He had cried out with a loud voice - this has to be the "It is finished" in Jn 19:30 - so the work of salvation was finished and yet God's Spirit was with Him throughout the experience - indeed Heb 9:14 tells us "how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God?"


Saying that the spirit was with the Lord on the cross when he became sin, is saying that sin is/was present within the spirit of God. This is not the case. Please remember this verse.

1 John 1:5-10
This is the message he has given us to announce to you: God is light and there is no darkness in him at all.

Christ is the word, and the word is God. Even if he gave up his spirit, this does not make Christ any less God while giving up his spirit on the cross. It just shows that once again - God has power and control over all things - including life and death.

Stephen

Mograce2U
Dec 30th 2007, 12:11 AM
I disagree. Paul is not meaning that in 1 Cor 12:3 - I believe that he is referring to an expression in tongues where what is actually being said is "Jesus be accursed" - that "tongue" could never be from the Spirit of God.

Paul makes it clear elsewhere that Jesus WAS accursed on the cross:-

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree' - " Gal 3:13 ESV

Jesus was able to speak as He did because by that stage the work of salvation had been completed - "It is finished."!Here is the curse we were under as elaborated by the law:

(Deu 21:22-23 KJV) And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: {23} His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

This is how Jesus identifies with taking the curse due us upon Himself - as an innocent man who had done nothing worthy of death in the sight of God or man.

The one who is accursed by God is condemned - damned, hence anathema: devoted to destruction because he is under the curse; therefore guilty and deserving of its penalty.

While Jesus took OUR curse upon Himself, He was not accursed of God, for there was no fault found in Him - even Pilate admitted this. His enemies however said (as the law states), that He WAS accursed of God and therefore there was no one who could deliver Him (Ps 71:10-11). This was not true because God delivered Him. Therefore no one who says that Jesus was accursed by God is speaking by the Spirit. That one is not speaking in love, and to him Paul says let him be anathema (1 Cor 16:22) - let the curse come upon him.

9Marksfan
Dec 30th 2007, 12:13 AM
Saying that the spirit was with the Lord on the cross when he became sin, is saying that sin is/was present within the spirit of God. This is not the case. Please remember this verse.

1 John 1:5-10
This is the message he has given us to announce to you: God is light and there is no darkness in him at all.

Christ is the word, and the word is God. Even if he gave up his spirit, this does not make Christ any less God while giving up his spirit on the cross. It just shows that once again - God has power and control over all things - including life and death.

Stephen

I'm not saying that sin was present in the Spirit of God - I'm saying that He was present on the cross and was instrumental in Christ's offering of Himself - that's what Heb 9:14 says - and you've yet to convince me that the Spirit left Christ BEFORE His atoning work was finished - I believe the gospel narratives teach the exact opposite.

9Marksfan
Dec 30th 2007, 01:36 AM
Here is the curse we were under as elaborated by the law:

(Deu 21:22-23 KJV) And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: {23} His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

This is how Jesus identifies with taking the curse due us upon Himself - as an innocent man who had done nothing worthy of death in the sight of God or man.

The one who is accursed by God is condemned - damned, hence anathema: devoted to destruction because he is under the curse; therefore guilty and deserving of its penalty.

While Jesus took OUR curse upon Himself, He was not accursed of God, for there was no fault found in Him - even Pilate admitted this.

Of course! That goes without saying! But you haven't answered my questions - let me put it another way - if we all deserve the wrath of God and Christ became a curse for us - did He bear God's wrath instead of us or not? Was there propitiation on the cross or not?


His enemies however said (as the law states), that He WAS accursed of God and therefore there was no one who could deliver Him (Ps 71:10-11). This was not true because God delivered Him.

Once the wrath of God had been satisfied - deliverance could never have happened with any other human being, because they would never have survived it - yet Jesus was without sin and so God delivered Him - the passive obedience of the cross was the ULTIMATE and final act of obedience (Phil 2:8)!


Therefore no one who says that Jesus was accursed by God

But you're misquoting 1 Cor 12:3! It doesn't say "Jesus WAS accursed" but "Jesus BE accursed"!!!! It's saying that to wish that Jesus would be anathema is something no one who is born again would ever say - and no one truly speaking a Spirit-given tongue would say (there presumably being those who could interpret such a message to identify that it was not from God). When you think about it, it's the ultimate satanic desire for Christ - he deserves the highest place that Heaven affords and for someone to "pray" that instead He would go to Hell is the ultimate in blasphemy - He has been there for us once already!!!! And He will never die again!!!!!!
is speaking by the Spirit. That one is not speaking in love, and to him Paul says let him be anathema (1 Cor 16:22) - let the curse come upon him.[/quote]

Friend of I AM
Dec 30th 2007, 02:15 AM
I'm not saying that sin was present in the Spirit of God - I'm saying that He was present on the cross and was instrumental in Christ's offering of Himself - that's what Heb 9:14 says - and you've yet to convince me that the Spirit left Christ BEFORE His atoning work was finished - I believe the gospel narratives teach the exact opposite.

Either the spirit is absent from sin, or sin is present with God. Scriptures point to God being fully good and sinless, so we know the former to be the Truth over the latter.


Originally posted by 9Marksfan
But you're misquoting 1 Cor 12:3! It doesn't say "Jesus WAS accursed" but "Jesus BE accursed"!!!! It's saying that to wish that Jesus would be anathema is something no one who is born again would ever say - and no one truly speaking a Spirit-given tongue would say (there presumably being those who could interpret such a message to identify that it was not from God). When you think about it, it's the ultimate satanic desire for Christ - he deserves the highest place that Heaven affords and for someone to "pray" that instead He would go to Hell is the ultimate in blasphemy - He has been there for us once already!!!! And He will never die again!!!!!!
is speaking by the Spirit. That one is not speaking in love, and to him Paul says let him be anathema (1 Cor 16:22) - let the curse come upon him.


1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was not cursed, but he took on the wrath of God in order for the curse of sin - to be taken away from mankind.

9Marksfan
Dec 30th 2007, 02:24 AM
Either the spirit is absent from sin, or sin is present with God. Scriptures point to God being fully good and sinless, so we know the former to be the Truth over the latter.

So what does Heb 9:14 mean then? And follwoing your logic, either the Holy Psirit does not resise in any Christian's sinful body or we are sinless the moment we are saved!


1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

It still says "is" not "was"!!! :B:giveup:


Jesus was not cursed, but he took on the wrath of God in order for the curse of sin - to be taken away from mankind.

Well PTL you do believe it! I agree that I don't like to hear preachers say "God punished Jesus on the cross" because it's inescapable to conclude that He deserved it because He'd sinned! But if we say "God poured out His wrath on Jesus FOR OUR SAKES" - THEN we get the glory of the gospel!!!

But are you saying that Paul was not inspired by the Spirit to cite Deut 21:23 in Gal 3:13?

dljc
Dec 30th 2007, 02:53 AM
Now, let me ask this question.

With having just celebrated Jesus' birthday. Did this thread have any impact on your appreciation of what He did for us?

As I have reflected on and meditated on the things in this thread I have gotten a deeper appreciation for all that He did. Through His grace and mercy we have been reconciled with God. It is only through Jesus Christ that we are saved. And only He receives the glory. He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. :pp

9Marksfan
Dec 31st 2007, 12:44 PM
Now, let me ask this question.

With having just celebrated Jesus' birthday. Did this thread have any impact on your appreciation of what He did for us?

As I have reflected on and meditated on the things in this thread I have gotten a deeper appreciation for all that He did. Through His grace and mercy we have been reconciled with God. It is only through Jesus Christ that we are saved. And only He receives the glory. He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. :pp

Amen and amen! I have rated this thread ***** - it really focuses on the glories of Christ's suffering for us, which was why He came into the world as that child in the manger: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

Ta-An
Dec 31st 2007, 01:25 PM
A side note :: Did you know that the Jews are not expecting a "Baby" for their Messiah ... I wonder why :hmm: even tho scripture speaks of a baby and the whole story we know....... They expect a King a fully grown man to come.... just think about this... when he returns for His second coming.... they'll be ready for Him... :pp

Brother Mark
Dec 31st 2007, 01:35 PM
A side note :: Did you know that the Jews are not expecting a "Baby" for their Messiah ... I wonder why :hmm: even tho scripture speaks of a baby and the whole story we know....... They expect a King a fully grown man to come.... just think about this... when he returns for His second coming.... they'll be ready for Him... :pp

What's interesting about that is the wise men from the East did find what they expected. Why did they know but the Jews did not? I think it was because of the witness of Daniel and the three Hebrew children during the captivity. They were taught by Daniel all the prophecies that the religious crowd ignored. They knew exactly when the Messiah was to be born and went to see him.

Mograce2U
Dec 31st 2007, 04:22 PM
Of course! That goes without saying! But you haven't answered my questions - let me put it another way - if we all deserve the wrath of God and Christ became a curse for us - did He bear God's wrath instead of us or not? Was there propitiation on the cross or not?
...

Once the wrath of God had been satisfied - deliverance could never have happened with any other human being, because they would never have survived it - yet Jesus was without sin and so God delivered Him - the passive obedience of the cross was the ULTIMATE and final act of obedience (Phil 2:8)!
...

But you're misquoting 1 Cor 12:3! It doesn't say "Jesus WAS accursed" but "Jesus BE accursed"!!!! It's saying that to wish that Jesus would be anathema is something no one who is born again would ever say - and no one truly speaking a Spirit-given tongue would say (there presumably being those who could interpret such a message to identify that it was not from God). When you think about it, it's the ultimate satanic desire for Christ - he deserves the highest place that Heaven affords and for someone to "pray" that instead He would go to Hell is the ultimate in blasphemy - He has been there for us once already!!!! And He will never die again!!!!!!
is speaking by the Spirit. That one is not speaking in love, and to him Paul says let him be anathema (1 Cor 16:22) - let the curse come upon him.I looked up "wrath" [orge 3709] in the NT and found it occurs 47 times and not once does any passage say that the wrath of God was put on Jesus as though God's wrath was appeased somehow by His sacrifice.

Friend of I AM
Dec 31st 2007, 05:02 PM
I looked up "wrath" [orge 3709] in the NT and found it occurs 47 times and not once does any passage say that the wrath of God was put on Jesus as though God's wrath was appeased somehow by His sacrifice.




Isaiah Chapter 53

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.




I think the Isaiah Prophecy says it all Mograce. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was definitely a victim of God's full wrath. He did not deserve to receive it - But did so that we ourselves would not have to. You are correct though, he is an innocent lamb and not cursed. Saying that he was/is cursed - is implying that he was sinful - which is a very incorrect doctrine. Still - I think we all need to be careful not to get into semantics or word games with scripture - whether or not a verse specifically says "wrath" or not - it's rather apparent that the Lord did experience the wrath of God.

9Marksfan
Dec 31st 2007, 08:11 PM
What's interesting about that is the wise men from the East did find what they expected. Why did they know but the Jews did not? I think it was because of the witness of Daniel and the three Hebrew children during the captivity. They were taught by Daniel all the prophecies that the religious crowd ignored. They knew exactly when the Messiah was to be born and went to see him.

Yes, I've heard this too and agree - but it would of course have had to be passed down several generations over many centuries - but of course all the pagan advisers were put to death in Daniel's era, thus leaving them free to establish a godly "heritage" - that clearly still had its influence centuries later!

Mograce2U
Dec 31st 2007, 08:21 PM
Hi Stephen,
I am trying to look at this without the "theology" lenses we have all bought into to grasp what is the propitiation that Christ did for us. Bear with me here, and hopefully I can make my point. Knowing of course that God foreordained all that would happen - but which if these things did GOD do to Jesus? I am going to change your bolded portions.


Isaiah Chapter 53

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
-He died to heal us
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
-notice this is what men thought was what was happening on the cross. Men thought God was condemning Jesus because He was hung on a tree.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
-a punishment inflicted by men to bring about His death that God accepted in order that we might be justified before God. In His death He takes away the curse that was upon us.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
-here is the key, His life substituted for our sins.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
-in the language of sacrifice: for OUR reconciliation to God, He was OUR Lamb, for OUR sins

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
-who was He oppressed and judged by? MEN
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
-IOW God allowed this so He could be our sacrifice and take away our sins

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
-the proof He really died, not swooned as was the rumor started by the Pharisees.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
-the will of the Lord being what? To raise Him from the dead. God did not deliver Him from dying because death was not the end of the matter.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
-here is what the will of the Lord is in providing us this sacrifice.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
-the Lord's work upon the cross was His intercession on our behalf.



I think the Isaiah Prophecy says it all Mograce. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was definitely a victim of God's full wrath. He did not deserve to receive it - But did so that we ourselves would not have to. You are correct though, he is an innocent lamb and not cursed. Saying that he was/is cursed - is implying that he was sinful - which is a very incorrect doctrine. Still - I think we all need to be careful not to get into semantics or word games with scripture - whether or not a verse specifically says "wrath" or not - it's rather apparent that the Lord did experience the wrath of God.I think it says it all too, but unfortunately we do not understand the reason for sacrifices in the OT all that well.

Men laid their hands upon the lamb to identify with that sacrifice for their sins. Men also laid their hands upon the Lamb of God, thus claiming Him for their sin offering. It was the wrath of men that did this inadvertently not realizing God's intent for this sacrifice was for THEM, to put away sacrifice for sins once and for all and make a full reconcilation for the people with their God. In the OT the animal sacrifice only allowed the Lord to pass over the sins of the people, so that they could come before Him - and this is why they needed to be repeated. Because sin was not taken away, merely covered, in order that the curse could be averted from men. But of course men continued sinning, and so that atonement was not yet perfect in those days.

But Jesus, as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, was the One whom God intended to die for the sins of the people so that they could be fully restored to fellowship with God and forgiven once and for all for their sins. He is a Living Sacrifice, and His blood continues to wash us clean so that we remain in a consecrated position before the Lord - which fully does away with the curse that comes because of wrath upon sin - to MEN. Jesus knew no sin and it was not the wrath of God but that of men that came upon Him - God was NOT condemning Him, but making a provision for US to have life everlasting.

It was not the wrath of God that did this (since men did it), but it was the grace of God extended to man and the evidence of His Love. Our Lamb who was slain is risen! And we have been set free.

9Marksfan
Dec 31st 2007, 08:21 PM
I looked up "wrath" [orge 3709] in the NT and found it occurs 47 times and not once does any passage say that the wrath of God was put on Jesus as though God's wrath was appeased somehow by His sacrifice.

Sounds like you don't believe in penal substitution after all - if you want some NT basis, then Gal 3:13, Rom 8:3 and 2 Cor 5:21 are good starting points. Also the word "propitiation" - hilasterion - which appears in Rom 3:25, clearly means just that - God's wrath was appeased by Christ's sacrifice - yet it was God the Father who sent God the Son!

Mograce2U
Dec 31st 2007, 08:29 PM
Sounds like you don't believe in penal substitution after all - if you want some NT basis, then Gal 3:13, Rom 8:3 and 2 Cor 5:21 are good starting points. Also the word "propitiation" - hilasterion - which appears in Rom 3:25, clearly means just that - God's wrath was appeased by Christ's sacrifice - yet it was God the Father who sent God the Son!God's holiness is what brought wrath upon men because of sin. The propitiation we have thru Jesus is what allows God to be merciful to us without compromising His holiness. It is man who has been changed by the cross. God did not change one bit. We have been made acceptable to God, and so mercy and grace can be given to us by faith. Wrath still remains however upon those who do not look to Jesus to be saved, because they are unchanged.

Edit: I will review the passages you cited.

9Marksfan
Dec 31st 2007, 08:50 PM
God's holiness is what brought wrath upon men because of sin. The propitiation we have thru Jesus is what allows God to be merciful to us without compromising His holiness. It is man who has been changed by the cross. God did not change one bit.

But could God have been merciful to us without it?


We have been made acceptable to God, and so mercy and grace can be given to us by faith. Wrath still remains however upon those who do not look to Jesus to be saved, because they are unchanged.

Edit: I will review the passages you cited.

Amen to all of that - but I don't follow how you think it was the wrath of man, not God - that displays Christ as the victim of unjust cruelty rather than the One who was appointed by God to be the penal substitute for the sins of the world.

9Marksfan
Dec 31st 2007, 09:04 PM
Hi Stephen,
I am trying to look at this without the "theology" lenses we have all bought into to grasp what is the propitiation that Christ did for us. Bear with me here, and hopefully I can make my point. Knowing of course that God foreordained all that would happen - but which if these things did GOD do to Jesus? I am going to change your bolded portions.


I think it says it all too, but unfortunately we do not understand the reason for sacrifices in the OT all that well.

Men laid their hands upon the lamb to identify with that sacrifice for their sins. Men also laid their hands upon the Lamb of God, thus claiming Him for their sin offering.

There is not one single verse that teaches this in Scripture - they laid their hands on Him solely because they hated Him and wanted rid of Him!


It was the wrath of men that did this inadvertently not realizing God's intent for this sacrifice was for THEM, to put away sacrifice for sins once and for all and make a full reconcilation for the people with their God. In the OT the animal sacrifice only allowed the Lord to pass over the sins of the people, so that they could come before Him - and this is why they needed to be repeated. Because sin was not taken away, merely covered, in order that the curse could be averted from men. But of course men continued sinning, and so that atonement was not yet perfect in those days.

But Jesus, as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, was the One whom God intended to die for the sins of the people so that they could be fully restored to fellowship with God and forgiven once and for all for their sins. He is a Living Sacrifice,

So by that do you think he is an ongoing sacrifice?


and His blood continues to wash us clean so that we remain in a consecrated position before the Lord - which fully does away with the curse that comes because of wrath upon sin - to MEN. Jesus knew no sin and it was not the wrath of God but that of men that came upon Him -

No. Here's another verse:-

"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My Companion," says the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered..." Zech 13:7

This section of Zechariah is full of Messanic prophecies - the thirty pieces of silver, mourning Him whom they pierced etc - and it's quoted in Matt 26:31, 56 and 67 and Mk 14:27. It clearly speaks of God's sword of judgement awaking against His Shepherd. There is a great hymn that makes reference to this - O Christ what burdens bowed Thy head:-

"Jehovah bade His sword awake,
O Christ, it woke 'gainst Thee!"


God was NOT condemning Him, but making a provision for US to have life everlasting.

He was condemning sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3) - ie Christ's body (1 Pwet 2:24).


It was not the wrath of God that did this (since men did it), but it was the grace of God extended to man and the evidence of His Love. Our Lamb who was slain is risen! And we have been set free.

It's not "either/or" but "both/and"! God's wrath AND God's grace met at the cross!

Friend of I AM
Dec 31st 2007, 09:37 PM
God's holiness is what brought wrath upon men because of sin. The propitiation we have thru Jesus is what allows God to be merciful to us without compromising His holiness. It is man who has been changed by the cross. God did not change one bit. We have been made acceptable to God, and so mercy and grace can be given to us by faith. Wrath still remains however upon those who do not look to Jesus to be saved, because they are unchanged.

Edit: I will review the passages you cited.

Hey Mo,

I agree with God's response to sin always being Holy. I think you are a bit confused though on the righteous judgement part. God's judgement is manifested in two ways - through wrath(if non repentance has occured) and through his mercy(or grace). From Isaiah 53 one can see that Christ was clearly not a recepient of God's mercy/grace - if he was then he wouldn't have been on the cross being judged for sins he didnt commit.

It was God's will and righteous judgement which made it so his wrath be upon his only son instead of man - seeing as how God being fully righteous, had to make someone pay the penalty for sin. Refer to these verses -


Ephesians 2:1-6
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Through Christ's noble sacrafice and God's grace - we no longer are children of wrath, but children of grace. One does indeed need to understand that God did pour out his wrath on Christ as an act of grace towards mankind - in order to understand that they themselves won't be the recepient of his wrath by having faith in Christ.

Mograce2U
Dec 31st 2007, 10:47 PM
Hey Mo,

I agree with God's response to sin always being Holy. I think you are a bit confused though on the righteous judgement part. God's judgement is manifested in two ways - through wrath(if non repentance has occured) and through his mercy(or grace). From Isaiah 53 one can see that Christ was clearly not a recepient of God's mercy/grace - if he was then he wouldn't have been on the cross being judged for sins he didnt commit.

It was God's will and righteous judgement which made it so his wrath be upon his only son instead of man - seeing as how God being fully righteous, had to make someone pay the penalty for sin. Refer to these verses -

Ephesians 2:1-6
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Through Christ's noble sacrafice and God's grace - we no longer are children of wrath, but children of grace. One does indeed need to understand that God did pour out his wrath on Christ as an act of grace towards mankind - in order to understand that they themselves won't be the recepient of his wrath by having faith in Christ.I'm sorry but I cannot find a single passage that says "God poured out His wrath on Him", however you might phrase it. What I did find was these passages:

(Psa 106:23 KJV) Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

Notice God did not have to pour out His wrath on Moses instead.

(Jer 18:20 KJV) Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.

Notice God did not have to pour out His wrath on Jeremiah either in order to turn it away from the people in response to Jeremiah's intercession for them.

This is what Jesus did in taking away God's wrath from us in His intercession for us. And that does not mean that God the Father poured out His wrath upon Him to do this.

(Nahum 1:2 KJV) God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Friend of I AM
Jan 1st 2008, 12:10 AM
I'm sorry but I cannot find a single passage that says "God poured out His wrath on Him", however you might phrase it. What I did find was these passages:

(Psa 106:23 KJV) Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

Notice God did not have to pour out His wrath on Moses instead.

(Jer 18:20 KJV) Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.

Notice God did not have to pour out His wrath on Jeremiah either in order to turn it away from the people in response to Jeremiah's intercession for them.

This is what Jesus did in taking away God's wrath from us in His intercession for us. And that does not mean that God the Father poured out His wrath upon Him to do this.

(Nahum 1:2 KJV) God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Terminology means a lot nowadays with this world full of convoluted doctrines, but still I think we as Christians can indeed get a bit caught up in verbage and wording at times.

Still, despite the exact wording that's listed in the scriptures - I think it's fairly apparent that the Lord Jesus Christ didn't receive God's mercy upon the cross and was a recepient of his wrath based on what's listed of Isaiah 53, as well as what we know of his life/crucifixion. Certainly he acted as our intercessor - but he acted as an intercessor for our deserved punishment, not for our deserved grace. Grace is a gift - and it was only made available to us because God's righteous judgement/punishment had been enacted upon the lamb who didn't deserve it.

If Jesus did indeed receive God's mercy then we wouldn't be recipients of God's Grace. Now I can say I understand where you're coming from though - we definitely don't want to be in a situation where we say something like "we're saved because of God's wrath" - and that's a really poor and incorrect way of phrasing Christ's sacrafice. As the word lists it, through our faith in Christ - we are products of his grace not his wrath, yet at the same time, it was the Lord's graceful sacrafice and allowance of himself to be a recepient of God's wrath that allows us to live through him.

That being said I think I'll bow out of this discussion for now. God bless.

Stephen

CoffeeBeaned
Jan 1st 2008, 01:47 AM
I'm sorry but I cannot find a single passage that says "God poured out His wrath on Him", however you might phrase it. What I did find was these passages:

(Psa 106:23 KJV) Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

Notice God did not have to pour out His wrath on Moses instead.

(Jer 18:20 KJV) Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.

Notice God did not have to pour out His wrath on Jeremiah either in order to turn it away from the people in response to Jeremiah's intercession for them.

This is what Jesus did in taking away God's wrath from us in His intercession for us. And that does not mean that God the Father poured out His wrath upon Him to do this.

(Nahum 1:2 KJV) God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Jeremiah and Moses were not equal to Jesus. Jesus was the sinless lamb. Neither Moses nor Jeremiah was sinless and therefore was not an appropriate substitute. Only the sinless Lamb of God was able to stand in our place and take God's judgment in our stead. If he hadn't we would still be subject to judgment and not have the grace of the cross.

BTW, we were God's enemies before Jesus took our place on the cross. Therefore, God poured out his wrath upon Jesus instead of upon us thereby eliminating the wrath we deserve.

Mograce2U
Jan 1st 2008, 01:54 AM
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Jeremiah and Moses were not equal to Jesus. Jesus was the sinless lamb. Neither Moses nor Jeremiah was sinless and therefore was not an appropriate substitute. Only the sinless Lamb of God was able to stand in our place and take God's judgment in our stead. If he hadn't we would still be subject to judgment and not have the grace of the cross.

BTW, we were God's enemies before Jesus took our place on the cross. Therefore, God poured out his wrath upon Jesus instead of upon us thereby eliminating the wrath we deserve.Hi Coffeebean,
My point was and still is, that God didn't have to "pour out His wrath" on somebody in order to avert it from those who deserved to receive it. Moses & Jeremiah provide a type of Christ's intercession for us upon the cross. His death paid the penalty for our redemption to satisfy the justice of a holy God, not to "appease" His wrath. Rather, in paying that penalty which we could not, He took away the wrath of God from us by taking away our sins. This did not necessitate that wrath be "poured out" upon Him. And this is what I am unable to find, that God either had to forsake Jesus or curse Him in order to have His holiness met. I think the way we are stating the atonement of Christ is wrong.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 1st 2008, 05:05 PM
Hmm, Robin,
I'm thinking of something here that may help you. I've been pondering these things in much detail, in light of the OT sacrifices and all, especially paying attention to this passage:

Exo 24:3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, "All the words that the LORD has spoken we will do."
Exo 24:4 And Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Exo 24:5 And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the LORD.
Exo 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar.
Exo 24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient."
Exo 24:8 And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

When i read this suddenly to mind came "Blood oath" a covenant..made with blood.
When Yeshua finally came He sealed the deal with His own blood and fulfilled the oath, and promise made by God that the people's sins would be washed away.
This covenant is being established now, and still being worked on.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Yeshua took and drank the cup of fury God would have given to each of us instead had it not been for God to send His Son and fulfill that blood oath.

It's a picture of God's love for us, as His love is greater than His wrath, just as we forgive our rebellious children and still love them. It's Love covering a multitude of sins.

The blood was a symbol of love, and the fulfillment of a covenant oath. It's by the same token a picture of what's expected of us on our end, to do the same.

"Lay down your life", "deny yourself", "lose your life", "pick up your cross", "follow me", "forgive, so you will be forgiven", "Love covers a multitude of sins" etc.....

God's love provides the way out, and at the same time enables us to focus not on our condemnation, but to work the same works Yeshua did and to strive to enter the same rest as Yeshua entered when His work was finished, and He was resurrected.

The Sabbath, a picture of our eternal peace and resurrection, with our works finished.

And that's why i live and breathe that picture every week: Six days you shall labor in and with Yeshua, and the seventh we rest as did Yeshua.

Apologies if this deviated a smidgen, it just flowed out of my fingers that way.....

Shalom,
Tanja

Mograce2U
Jan 1st 2008, 05:35 PM
Hi Jesusinmyheart,

Yeshua took and drank the cup of fury God would have given to each of us instead had it not been for God to send His Son and fulfill that blood oath. This is the part I am not seeing in the verses you quoted. The cup Jesus drank at the hand of the Father contained death, not fury.

If you look at how the priests were to slay a lamb, they were to do so with compassion. Beasts that were torn were forbidden to eat. That men tore the flesh of Jesus points to their wrath against Him - not God's.

9Marksfan
Jan 1st 2008, 05:39 PM
I'm sorry but I cannot find a single passage that says "God poured out His wrath on Him", however you might phrase it. What I did find was these passages:

(Psa 106:23 KJV) Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

Notice God did not have to pour out His wrath on Moses instead.

(Jer 18:20 KJV) Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.

Notice God did not have to pour out His wrath on Jeremiah either in order to turn it away from the people in response to Jeremiah's intercession for them.

This is what Jesus did in taking away God's wrath from us in His intercession for us. And that does not mean that God the Father poured out His wrath upon Him to do this.

(Nahum 1:2 KJV) God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

CoffeeBeaned has made an excellent point - Jesus' intercession was different from that of Moses or Jeremiah - because he was not only acting as our Great High Priest but was also the sacrifice Himself - our passover Lamb (1 Cor 5:7). He was the offering, which was burned up as God's judgement consumed it.

As far as God heeding Moses' and Jeremiah's intercession is concerned, this is explained in Rom 3:25:-

"...because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed..."

This was because He knew that:-

"when the fulness of time had come, [He would send] forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law..." Gal 4:4 NKJV

If you do not think that God's wrath was poured out on Christ in our place, then what has happened to His wrath against us? Has He just forgotten about it? Or is it "temporarily" out of the way in case we step out of line and then He'll bring it "out of the cupboard"?!?

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 1st 2008, 05:45 PM
MoGrace2U,

Maybe it would help if you consider that God's fury would result in death.... "The wages of sin are death."

Also, God has given rebellious stubbron people over to reap what they sowed.

Jdg 2:14 So the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he gave them over to plunderers, who plundered them. And he sold them into the hand of their surrounding enemies, so that they could no longer withstand their enemies.

Psa 81:12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels.

When we fall by our own sin we experience hardship, and scripture says "by His stripes we are healed" When we endure hardship, we often experience a healing as it turns us from our sin to God.

I think that's why Yeshua experienced the beating and lashing, because He had to endure sin in the flesh which leads to punishment (only He took upon Him what we sowed)

Maybe that helps ?

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 1st 2008, 05:48 PM
MoGrace2U,

Maybe you missed this post by ACCM also:

Isaiah 51:22Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: 23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

Shalom,
Tanja

Mograce2U
Jan 1st 2008, 06:22 PM
If you do not think that God's wrath was poured out on Christ in our place, then what has happened to His wrath against us? Has He just forgotten about it? Or is it "temporarily" out of the way in case we step out of line and then He'll bring it "out of the cupboard"?!?Jesus, the Holy One of God, provided a perfect sacrifice in substitution of His death for ours. Paying the penalty once and for all, what God required for sin - death. His death satisfies God's holy requirement that justice must be served. An "eye for an eye".

The stress we see in scripture is on the righteousness of Christ, which is imputed to us by faith in what He has done for us. Wrath is for the unrighteous, which God does pour out upon them. Christ's death allows us to be changed so that mercy and not wrath can be given to us. Mercy & life is what the righteous receive. Man was redeemed by Christ's blood so that he could be reconciled to a Holy God and the wrath of God could be averted from him. His blood cleanses us so that we can come before the Lord as a clean thing, making us holy in His sight - sanctified and set apart for God's use.

Love, not wrath accomplished this for us:

(John 3:34-36 KJV) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. {35} The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. {36} He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

No wrath abides on us because no wrath from God was placed upon Him either! Rather the love of God that is in Him is what we receive.

(2 Tim 2:11-13 KJV) It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: {12} If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: {13} If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Christ laid down His earthly life for us, so we could have part in that eternal life which was in Him. He gave Himself over willingly into the hands of men as a lamb being led to the slaughter - without resistance, in perfect obedience to the Father's will. What does the wrath of God have to do with any of that?

Mograce2U
Jan 1st 2008, 06:25 PM
MoGrace2U,

Maybe you missed this post by ACCM also:

Isaiah 51:22Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: 23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

Shalom,
Tanja
The context is speaking to Israel about a time when they would no more receive the wrath of God. We are in that day!

9Marksfan
Jan 1st 2008, 09:38 PM
The context is speaking to Israel about a time when they would no more receive the wrath of God. We are in that day!

Unless it was exhausted in Christ on the cross, on what possible basis can you say that?

Mograce2U
Jan 1st 2008, 09:49 PM
Unless it was exhausted in Christ on the cross, on what possible basis can you say that?You seem to keep saying that the cross changed God's mind about sin. Or that His wrath must have been exhausted lest there be some left over. God still has a holy hatred for sin and sinners and if they are not converted, they will suffer His wrath - because it still abides on His enemies. But we have been made friends with God because we were at enmity with Him. God is still the same, yesterday, today and forever - but we are not. God loves His creatures enough to fix what is wrong with 'em.

Soj
Jan 1st 2008, 11:06 PM
Jesus "drank" the cup of God's wrath upon sin.So do you still stand by this first statement you made?

I think you've complicated the original question somewhat now, and I, and probably others, am confused by what you are saying the cup of God's wrath is?

Jesus prayed in the garden that the cup, if possible, would pass...but the answer was no. The cup has been identified as the cup of God's wrath upon sin, you yourself agree with this. So it can be concluded that on the cross the cup of the wrath of God upon sin was drunk by Jesus, hence the Bible says he became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), and that he was made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13).

Mograce2U
Jan 2nd 2008, 01:02 AM
So do you still stand by this first statement you made?

I think you've complicated the original question somewhat now, and I, and probably others, am confused by what you are saying the cup of God's wrath is?

Jesus prayed in the garden that the cup, if possible, would pass...but the answer was no. The cup has been identified as the cup of God's wrath upon sin, you yourself agree with this. So it can be concluded that on the cross the cup of the wrath of God upon sin was drunk by Jesus, hence the Bible says he became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), and that he was made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13).Actually Soj, in looking into this, I have changed my mind because I cannot find that scripture ever says this. Since English is not the language that scripture was written in and we do not have the Hebrew mindset either, it pays to look a little further into the things we have been told. That is all I am trying to do.

Friend of I AM
Jan 2nd 2008, 01:25 AM
Sorry felt the need to respond despite the fact that I stated that I wouldn't do so any longer. I think Mo was just trying to say that by us stating that our Lord took the full brunt of God's wrath - we are saying that Christ is unrighteous and an enemy of God.

While I don't fully agree with this stance - I definitely commend and admire her tenacity in defending the righteousnous of Christ.

I think the major confusion here is that we're seperating Christ from being part of the Godhead when looking at the scenario. Despite Christ being an atonement for the sins of mankind and being a man on the cross - he was/is still God. If you look at it from this standpoint, you'll understand the fullness of the sacrafice being offered. God put himself(or part of himself) on the cross to bear the brunt of his wrath, so we wouldn't have to. We know that Christ is God by John 1:1. As well as from his testimony in John 8:58 and John 10:30. When we look at it from this perspective, I think we can start to understand the fullness of the Love and grace being offered by God through this sacrafice.

Isaiah 49:17
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

The Lord literally inflicted himself with physical harm so that mankind would be saved. He judged and condemned himself with his wrath, so that we would not have to suffer such condemnation simply by having faith in his sacrafice. By taking the brunt of his own wrath so that we would not be stricken by it, God has represented to us all what true righteousnous is all about - and we can fully know that we serve a loving God who does indeed deserve reverential awe.

Grace,

Stephen

Mograce2U
Jan 2nd 2008, 01:34 AM
Thanks Stephen for trying to understand, but your last paragraph is what my contention is about. So why do we say this is the conclusion? Is the love of God to be defined by wrath? From the human perspective this is what it looks like - and scripture does support that misunderstanding. What I want to see is the cross from the Lord's point of view - and I don't see wrath.

Friend of I AM
Jan 2nd 2008, 01:42 AM
Thanks Stephen for trying to understand, but your last paragraph is what my contention is about. Why do we say this?

No problem. Well we say this specifically because that is indeed what he did. He inflicted pain upon himself. He pre-ordained himself to receive punishment for our sins using the physical body he had created for himself.

Friend of I AM
Jan 2nd 2008, 08:37 AM
Okay Mo, I think I've come up with a simple and practical way of explaining this concept to you. Say for example you are a judge. You are put in a position to judge a person whom you love very much for a crime based on the laws you've implemented. Being a righteous judge, you'll always follow through with what punishment you've stated that you'd give. Still, despite being righteous - you remember that the person who commited the crime is very much loved by you. In an effort to save them from punishment - you elect to take on the judgement you had imposed upon them on yourself instead.

By electing to take this righteous punishment in the guilty person's place, you are satisfying the need for justice to be served and maintaining your righteousnous/faithfulness to your law. You are by no means calling yourself guilty or unrighteous for taking the guilty person's place, you are just demonstrating an example of your mercy, grace, and love for the one whom you have judged guilty. Make sense? :D

Edit: And no your love isn't just defined strictly by your ability to punish or to have righteous indignation against the guilty, it's defined by a combination of your mercy along with this righteous indignation you have against someone when they break the law.

Mograce2U
Jan 2nd 2008, 05:30 PM
Hi Stephen,
Well with a little investigation I have found where this doctrine has evolved from and it seems Charles Finney is the culprit. He rejected the idea of the substitutionary atonement of Christ in favor of this idea for the satisfaction of the law and God's wrath upon sin. The problem with this idea is that it does not explain why we still die in our flesh: if the punishment is all that needs to be removed - then why do we still suffer death?

Our justification is not: "just as if we never sinned"; because sin is still present. So Christ's atonement for us must be something more if sin and death are still the experience for the Christian. Finney also believed we could live sinless lives. Yet he proved that was not even true for himself since he thought it good to tamper with the word of God.

Jesus purchased our redemption with His earthly life, this is the price He paid for us and in exchange we receive His eternal life. The fact that Jesus was born without a sin nature and did not sin when He was tested, qualifies Him as the only one who could stand in our place because sin & its penalty (death) were not upon Him as it was upon Adam who did sin. Had He not been killed, Jesus would not have suffered death for sin, but would have lived forever in His human state. It was thru Adam that death entered the world, and because of sin, death was "attached" to his flesh. But that sin also separated him from God and his fellowship with God was broken. Jesus however was never separated from God the Father and His life was in Him from conception.

By taking our death upon Himself, He is just to give us His life and restore us to fellowship with God so that we can be righteous in His sight thru faith in this work of the cross. The picture of the sacrificial lamb is the only one that fits here. But it is the sacrifice of a Lamb who cannot die. Jesus died a real death in His flesh - but not in spirit. Adam already dead in spirit had no power to sustain life beyond his physical death. Jesus however in committing His spirit to the Father retained that life which He had before the world was created. He did not have to die in spirit to purchase our freedom from death. His righteous life is what overcame death and has been imputed to us by faith. So by faith we stand before God with a perpetual covering by His blood shed for us. But even more than this, the Holy Spirit we have received also works to purge us from the sin that so easily besets us, keeping us sanctified in His presence so that we remain forgiven in His sight and the curse is averted as well as the wrath of God which came by it.

Because He has given us the seed of eternal spiritual life, we too can commit our spirits into the loving hands of God trusting Him to bring us thru the death of our bodies. Jesus in His humanity had to die if He was to return to the glory that He had with the Father, and we must too if we are to join Him there. His resurrection is our proof that God is faithful to do this for us. All because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. This is the way that has been provided for us so that when we die we come into the fullness of that kingdom in glory. And when we see Him, we will be like Him.

Ye must be born again in this life, because it is the new spiritual man who will live forever when the old man of the flesh dies.

Friend of I AM
Jan 2nd 2008, 07:14 PM
Hey Robin,

Thanks for that explanation and for your research. I'll have to do some reading about what you've posted. In the interrum though - I've posted the KJV version of Romans 3:21-31 below to further explain the stance which I've posted on this issue:

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

A propriation is essentially an atonement, or something that is offered in a conciliatory fashion to satisfy a debt.(The NIV version actually uses the word atonement instead of propriation)

Man was/is guilty of sin. The judgement/debt of God against man for sin was for him to receive God's wrath(or righteous idignation) as well as experience death. The grace part comes in, when God decides to use himself(himself being the personage of Christ) as the recepient of his righteous indignation(or wrath) - as oppossed to man.

I see what you're saying, but it's a bit backwards. Essentially what you've stated is that God's grace is being used without him admistering justice/judgement. Likewise though as you've mentioned, it is also incorrect for one to say that God's wrath is used as an atonement without taking grace into account. In actuality, the two go hand in hand. God's rightoeusnous calls for judgement and the use of his wrath to be enacted against a sinner, however, God's mercy allows for grace to temper the judgement.

So to simplify - Christ's sacrafice acted in two ways:

1) It satisfied God's judgement - and made Christ the recepient of God's wrath instead of man.

2) It was a graceful act of mercy - which allowed for man to return to fellowship with God and partake in eternal life with his creator.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 2nd 2008, 09:47 PM
<snip> it does not explain why we still die in our flesh: if the punishment is all that needs to be removed - then why do we still suffer death?

Our justification is not: "just as if we never sinned"; because sin is still present. So Christ's atonement for us must be something more if sin and death are still the experience for the Christian.I like how this thread stimulates my mind to dwell on this

Look at it this way:

Yeshua according to previous discussion had to be born of a virgin woman, symbolizing innocence. Due to Adam we are all born with an evil inclination.
As previously discussed Yeshua did not have that evil inclination.
Yet He still died. His flesh did, and after He was resurrected He had a glorfied body.

Maybe we have been looking at the OT sacrifices in the wrong way, and the sacrifices of animals were more of a picture of our own death to our own desires and wills.....
While i agree that Yeshua's blood covers our sins/shortcomings. But there still remains a Sabbath rest for us. IOW, there still remains work for us to be done in the flesh, specifically a denying of ourselves unto death as Yeshua did. Remember the flesh is weak, the Spirit is willing ? Yeshua showed us an example and lived His live soleley for His Father's will, and served us so that we could see what holy living is like.

Remember Him saying: "If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all."
Which goes along with the line:
"But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first."

I'm starting to think the blood of Christ served a dual purpose, for one it was a blood oath covenant fulfillment, signifying God's mercy on our shortcomings, and for the other a perfect example of what we are to do...to pour out our life for Him.

And so we must die, in the flesh still, as he did. But only through denying ourselves as he did we will experience resurrection as we will be found worthy. (Think of the parable of the king who gave a wedding banquet...)

Shalom,
Tanja

Brother Mark
Jan 3rd 2008, 01:36 AM
Jesus was a man of sorrows. Paul said that when we experience the fellowship of his sufferings we also experience the power of his resurrection. Jesus drank of this cup many times in his life. Peter said "he who has suffered has ceased from sin". Telling the flesh no, and having it crucified is suffering. Just as Jesus was crucified by people, so the Lord God still uses others to crucify us. We will constantly be giving up our rights and taking on the mind of Christ, who thought it not robbery to be equal with God but did not take that position. Just as Jesus gave up his rights, so do we. I think Elisha drank from the cup that Jesus did.

When Elijah was called home, he and Elisha left Gilgal. He had asked for double the Spirit that was on Elijah so he followed Elijah past Gilgal. Elijah told Elisha to stay at Gilgal. He would not. But many today are camped out at Gilgal. This is where Israel first got circumcised when before entering into the promised land. This is salvation where we enter into covenant with God. But do you want to drink the cup of Christ? Then we have to move past Gilgal. Like Elisha, we must move on.

God sent Elijah next to Bethel. Bethel means house of God. The sons of the prophets came out to Elisha and asked for him to stay with them. The house of God is wonderful! We can stay and enjoy God's presence. It is where Abraham built an altar and began to know God more. He prayed there. Elijah told Elisha to stay too. But Elisha would not. The house of God is wonderful. But Elisha wanted more. So he followed Elijah still.

God took them to Jericho. The sons of the prophets at Jericho also tried to get Elisha to stay. Many Christians camp out at deliverance. Salvation is wonderful! Deliverance is better and comes after salvation. The first stronghold of Jericho fell and great shouting occurred. It is a great place to be. But there is more. Elisha wanted more so he did not camp out at deliverance. From salvation, to the house of God and enjoying the fellowship of prayer and believers, to Jericho where we are delivered from our strongholds. Yet, Elisha was not satisfied.

Then they went to the Jordan. This is where Jesus was baptized and the Holy Spirit came upon him in full measure. He was filled with the Spirit. The Jordan is that place of humility where we learn that "I must decrease but he must increase". It is that place of "descending". It means to go down. This is where we begin to know we must carry our cross and die daily. Here we give up our life and become filled with the Spirit. It was here, after crossing the Jordan, that the mantle of Elijah fell on Elisha the second time. Ah, the sweet cup of the Holy Spirit. Can we drink of the cup of the crucifixion, of the descending or going down of the Jordan, the decrease of ourselves? For then, we can drink of the Holy Spirit and be filled with him.

Jesus, after crossing the Jordan was filled with the Holy Spirit. Afterwards he was driven into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit and tested. He conquered the temptation of the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the boastful pride of life. He was proven to live for God instead of living for himself. Then, he left the wilderness in the power of the spirit. Ah, the cup of crucifixion will be bitter waters, like Mirah, yet, the fruit thereof is power. God cannot trust his power to a one who lives for self.

Phil 3:7-11

7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
NASU

Do you want to drink of the cup and be conformed to his death? Then can we experience the power of his resurrection! Let us not stay at Gilgal, Bethel or Jericho. Let us move on to Jordan.

9Marksfan
Jan 4th 2008, 11:38 AM
You seem to keep saying that the cross changed God's mind about sin.

Yes and no. It was planned from all eternity and was "set in stone" because of that - so God always knew this would be the way He would be able to justify the ungodly. But within space and time the cross changed EVERYTHING, once it had happened!


Or that His wrath must have been exhausted lest there be some left over. God still has a holy hatred for sin and sinners and if they are not converted, they will suffer His wrath - because it still abides on His enemies. But we have been made friends with God because we were at enmity with Him.

That doesn't make any sense - how were we made His friends? We were His enemies - how was God's righteous hostility towards us changed?


God is still the same, yesterday, today and forever - but we are not. God loves His creatures enough to fix what is wrong with 'em.

And He "fixed it" by satisfying His justice as WELL as His law by judging sin in Christ (Rom 8:3).

You still haven't answered the question so I will repeat it - you rightly say that there is no wrath upon believers, yet it remains over unbelievers. How and when was it removed for believers?

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 4th 2008, 05:15 PM
I'm wondring more if His wrath does not remain for all sin, even in believers based on following verse:

1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


Kind of like hate the sin but not the sinner....

Shalom,
Tanja

Mograce2U
Jan 4th 2008, 05:22 PM
You still haven't answered the question so I will repeat it - you rightly say that there is no wrath upon believers, yet it remains over unbelievers. How and when was it removed for believers?
In that moment when we first believed, when faith was born in us, grace & mercy was given to us. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us so that faith could come by hearing the word of God.

In the OT, worshippers had strict rules to meet before they could approach a holy God. If these rules were not met, wrath was what came upon them because of sin. This is what has been nailed to the cross so that by faith alone we can approach God and find mercy and grace in our time of need.

We have this boldness because of what Christ did for us on the cross. Taking away our enmity, our uncleanness; that made us objects of wrath in His sight. Now any man who looks to Jesus upon the cross and believes God has raised Him from the dead can come and receive life and is invited to do so. All we need do now is call upon the name of the Lord and we will be saved. Since everything needed to stand in His presence is given to us by His blood shed for us.

God so loved the world because the Father loves the Son who created it. (ie. the Builder of the house has more honor than the house.) Wrath came upon man because he sinned. But the Father sent the Son into the world to take that sin away so man could be justly forgiven and restored to fellowship with God and experience His love. All of which - our justification & sanctification and the love of God placed in our hearts by giving him life for his faith instead of death for his sin - changes the man who now worships His creator in love and obedience.

This is the great exchange which God, who is love, brought to us by the death of His Son. For in accepting His righteous life because He was without sin, God's justice was met which man had broken. The Lamb who was slain for us. There was no need to pour out wrath upon Him to accomplish this. The wrath that Jesus met with was that of men who hated Him and who thought He was cursed by God. But God showed He loved Him by raising Him from death so that same love could be found by us.

Apparently Finney didn't see it that way either. But God has not changed. He does not punish the righteous with the wicked. He does not pour out wrath upon those He considers just. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Instead He sent His Son into the world cursed with death and allowed Him to die the death that we do, so that He could give us the life that He alone possesses. So that when we see Him we will be like Him - because WE have been changed!

9Marksfan
Jan 4th 2008, 06:08 PM
In that moment when we first believed, when faith was born in us, grace & mercy was given to us. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us so that faith could come by hearing the word of God.

With you so far.


In the OT, worshippers had strict rules to meet before they could approach a holy God. If these rules were not met, wrath was what came upon them because of sin. This is what has been nailed to the cross so that by faith alone we can approach God and find mercy and grace in our time of need.

What - the rules? Ah - Col 2:14 - OK. But you're accepting that wrath was there because of our sin, right?


We have this boldness because of what Christ did for us on the cross. Taking away our enmity, our uncleanness; that made us objects of wrath in His sight.

But HOW did he do this? What happened for it to be taken away?


Now any man who looks to Jesus upon the cross and believes God has raised Him from the dead can come and receive life and is invited to do so.

Not invited - commanded!


All we need do now is call upon the name of the Lord and we will be saved. Since everything needed to stand in His presence is given to us by His blood shed for us.

Amen to that! But our sin not only deserves death but ALSO judgement:-

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" Heb 9:27 NKJV

One of the great promises that accompanies faith in Christ is that we will "not come into judgement" Jn 5:24 - ie we will not be judged for our sin. Why not? Because Christ bore the judgement for it on the cross!


God so loved the world because the Father loves the Son who created it. (ie. the Builder of the house has more honor than the house.) Wrath came upon man because he sinned. But the Father sent the Son into the world to take that sin away

But again - if wrath was there over man because of his sin, HOW did Jesus take it away?


so man could be justly forgiven and restored to fellowship with God and experience His love. All of which - our justification & sanctification and the love of God placed in our hearts by giving him life for his faith instead of death for his sin - changes the man who now worships His creator in love and obedience.

You correctly say that we receive Jesus' life but justification has to be not ONLY on the basis of Jesus' righteousness but ALSO on His having made propitiation for our sin (Rom 3:25) - you keep avoiding this matter!


This is the great exchange which God, who is love, brought to us by the death of His Son. For in accepting His righteous life because He was without sin, God's justice was met which man had broken.

Yes, Jesus succeeded where Adam had failed in living a perfect, righteous life - but Jesus' righteousness ALONE did not deal with our SIN - He had to become the scapegoat, the mercy seat to deal with God's JUDGEMENT against sin which was over us!!!! And death ALONE could not deal with that - He required to ATONE, PROPITIATE for our sin!!! And, having done so, then He was free to die as the ultimate fulfilment of the law.


The Lamb who was slain for us. There was no need to pour out wrath upon Him to accomplish this.

There ABSOLUTELY was - otherwise, we STILL have to face judgement for our sins after death and Christ's work of atonement/propitiation was NOT finished! What concerns me most with you, Robin, is how you have changed your position here, which I find VERY worrying - what is your problem here? That God is a God of wrath? or that sin deserves His wrath? or that Jesus bore that wrath when He was innocent? Yet he died as a SUBSTITUTE - that is what Is 53 is all about! That is the GLORY of the cross! It is a TRAGEDY that you are not only missing it, but denying it too......


The wrath that Jesus met with was that of men who hated Him and who thought He was cursed by God. But God showed He loved Him by raising Him from death so that same love could be found by us.

But there was God's wrath as well - the Zech 13 passage I have quoted confirms that - and God rescued Him after He had abandoned Him, because His work was complete - "It is finished!" - the Father HAD to turn away, because He is of "purer eyes than to look upon sin" - since Christ was made sin, then the Father HAD to turn away at that time - getting back to the OP, THAT was what was so agonizing for Jesus in the garden - if it was simply death, then Jesus was actually less brave than many a sinful man going to his death!!! What do you think made Jesus so apprehensive about the cup?


Apparently Finney didn't see it that way either. But God has not changed. He does not punish the righteous with the wicked. He does not pour out wrath upon those He considers just. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Instead He sent His Son into the world cursed with death and allowed Him to die the death that we do, so that He could give us the life that He alone possesses. So that when we see Him we will be like Him - because WE have been changed!

You have completely missed the point of the cross - please go back and read Rom 3:25, Gal 3:13 and 2 Cor 5:21 - alongside Is 53 and Zech 13.

Speaking of Is 53, here's how verse 10a is translated by a number of word-for-word translations....

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief." NKJV

"But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief;" NASB

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; He hath put him to grief:" KJV

"Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; He has put him to grief;" ESV

"Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; He hath put him to grief:" ASV

"And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick" YLT

You said in an earlier post that you could not find any verse that stated that God's wrath was poured out on Jesus - well, I think I've found one for you now (Is 53:10) - along with Zech 13:7.

Please appreciate just hiow crucial this is, Robin - it is the essence of our hope! If Christ did not bear the wrath WE deserved, HOW will we stand on that Day?

9Marksfan
Jan 4th 2008, 06:10 PM
I'm wondring more if His wrath does not remain for all sin, even in believers based on following verse:

1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


Kind of like hate the sin but not the sinner....

Shalom,
Tanja

No - this is the fire of God's purity testing our works as believers - context is everything - if it were the fire of His wrath, Christ would have died in vain and NO one would be able to stand - ALL would be consumed.......

Mograce2U
Jan 4th 2008, 06:55 PM
9Marksfan,
I can't read the scripture for you anymore than you can for me. Your emphasis on the first part of Isa 53:10 fails to consider the rest of the verse. Zech 13 does however show us by whose hands Christ's wounds came:

(Zec 13:6 KJV) And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

We seem to differ in how we understand that He bore our sins. I see this as bearing them away. With that removal, the wrath of God upon us because of the curse was also taken away. It is spiritual language which a literal hermeneutic fails to give a real picture of. Which is why I keep pointing to the sacrificial lamb. The scapegoat also is a less than perfect picture of the spiritual truth of what transpired when the ribbon changed color (according to tradition). Lev 16 mentions 2 goats offered. The Lord's goat was slain as an offering while the live goat was sent into the wilderness to bear away the sins of the people. Christ has fulfilled both types since He offered His own blood from His death upon the mercy seath and yet lived to carry away our sins.

Friend of I AM
Jan 5th 2008, 02:33 PM
I think Romans 5:9 will probably clear up the whole debate on whether or not Jesus was the recepient of God's wrath. I've included a couple of verses from various translations just to make sure that we all understand it's not an issue with translation.

New American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/romans/5.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://gwt.scripturetext.com/romans/5.htm) (©1995) (http://www.godsword.org/)
Since Christ's blood has now given us God's approval, we are even more certain that Christ will save us from God's anger.

King James Bible (http://kingjbible.com/romans/5.htm)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

American Standard Version (http://asvbible.com/romans/5.htm)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.

Bible in Basic English (http://basicenglishbible.com/romans/5.htm)
Much more, if we now have righteousness by his blood, will salvation from the wrath of God come to us through him.

Douay-Rheims Bible (http://drb.scripturetext.com/romans/5.htm)
Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him.

Darby Bible Translation (http://darbybible.com/romans/5.htm)
Much rather therefore, having been now justified in the power of his blood, we shall be saved by him from wrath.

English Revised Version (http://erv.scripturetext.com/romans/5.htm)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.

Tyndale New Testament (http://tnt.scripturetext.com/romans/5.htm)
Much more then now (seeing we are justified in his blood) shall we be preserved from wrath thorow him.

Weymouth New Testament (http://weymouthbible.com/romans/5.htm)
If therefore we have now been pronounced free from guilt through His blood, much more shall we be delivered from God's anger through Him.

Webster's Bible Translation (http://websterbible.com/romans/5.htm)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

World English Bible (http://worldebible.com/romans/5.htm)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God's wrath through him.

Young's Literal Translation (http://yltbible.com/romans/5.htm)
much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

9Marksfan
Jan 5th 2008, 04:26 PM
9Marksfan,
I can't read the scripture for you anymore than you can for me. Your emphasis on the first part of Isa 53:10 fails to consider the rest of the verse.

In what way? it was the first part that you overlooked in your veres by verse commentary a few posts back.


Zech 13 does however show us by whose hands Christ's wounds came:

(Zec 13:6 KJV) And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Yes, this can work on a number of levels - the wound of Judas' betrayal, the wound of the disciples' desertion - or (most likely) the wounds of the nails (but they were applied by the Romans - hardly the "house of [his] friends"!) - it just speaks in the passive "with which I was wounded" - Is 53:10a makes it clear who does the wounding - and Zech 13:7 makes reference to Jehovah bidding His OWN sword awake against His Shepherd!


We seem to differ in how we understand that He bore our sins. I see this as bearing them away.

That's expiation - I agree with that - but I go further - to propitiation, which is the reason why expiation could be final and effective.


With that removal, the wrath of God upon us because of the curse was also taken away.

I know it sounds nitpicking, but I don't think so - the expiation satisfied the law - but it was Christ enduring God's wrath against sin that dealt with it once and for all, because it guaranteed expiation.


It is spiritual language which a literal hermeneutic fails to give a real picture of. Which is why I keep pointing to the sacrificial lamb. The scapegoat also is a less than perfect picture of the spiritual truth of what transpired when the ribbon changed color (according to tradition). Lev 16 mentions 2 goats offered. The Lord's goat was slain as an offering while the live goat was sent into the wilderness to bear away the sins of the people. Christ has fulfilled both types since He offered His own blood from His death upon the mercy seath and yet lived to carry away our sins.

I agree - but as the Lamb of God, He effects propitiation - and as the scapegoat, expiation - two vitally important aspects of redemption.

You didn't answer my point about the OP - why did Christ shrink back from the cup, if it was only His physical death that was in it and nothing more?

And you've also still to answer the question about how God's wrath is actually dealt with - where did it go? Where did our sins go?

Mograce2U
Jan 5th 2008, 04:53 PM
9Marksfan,

And you've also still to answer the question about how God's wrath is actually dealt with - where did it go? Where did our sins go?
(Rom 8:3 KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

It died with Him.

(Col 2:12-13 KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. {13} And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

(Rom 6:1-7 KJV) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? {2} God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? {3} Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {4} Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. {5} For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: {6} Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. {7} For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Therefore no wrath remains upon us.

9Marksfan
Jan 6th 2008, 04:50 PM
9Marksfan,

(Rom 8:3 KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

It died with Him.

(Col 2:12-13 KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. {13} And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

(Rom 6:1-7 KJV) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? {2} God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? {3} Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {4} Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. {5} For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: {6} Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. {7} For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Therefore no wrath remains upon us.

Well I'd say we're finally agreed! Jesus absorbed God's wrath and it did indeed "die with Him" for those who will believe - "now sleeps that sword for me".

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". Rom 8:1.