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Nihil Obstat
Dec 16th 2007, 07:59 AM
Since the first month that I became a Christ follower, I was taught that when I was given my resurrected body, I would no longer be married to my wife. I was told that instead, we'd all be one, and we'd all be married to Jesus, because we are corporately His bride. And when I responded that this teaching simply didn't ring true in my spirit (that everyone would then be one with my wife), and that it certainly didn't make me happy, I was told to think about two things: 1) that I had said in my vows, "until death do we part", and 2) to read Matt. 22:23-33. Well, having read that passage and thought about the words of our wedding vow, I still hated that I would no longer be married to my wife, but that everyone would have with her what I alone have with her now (they were by no means talking about anything sexual, but still a one-ness that only she and I share). I thought that Jesus taught that whatever God joined together was never to be separated (Matt. 19:6)? I was distraught and confused, being very unsettled about this entire issue for quite some time. That is, until just a few weeks ago...

A teacher and friend of mine gave me a new perspective on Matt. 22:23-33, and I'd like to see what you all think about it...

Matthew 22 (NKJV)
23 ...the Sadducees, who say that there is no resurrection [they also do not believe in angels - see v.30; Luke 20:36], came to (Jesus) and asked Him, 24 saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.

"25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also.

"28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. (The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage - Luke 20:34) 30 [But] in the resurrection they (who are counted worthy to attain that age - Luke 20:35) neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven (nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection - Luke 20:36).

"31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read (in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage - Mark 12:26) what was spoken to you by God [they also believed that only the Pentateuch was inspired of God], saying, '32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (for all live to Him - Luke 20:38)."

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at His teaching...

Okay, so, what exactly is going on here? A group of people who do not believe in the resurrection, asks Jesus a question about the resurrection, but for what reason? Are they looking for Jesus to give them a teaching on the resurrection? No! - Jesus would have responded much differently had Peter, James, and John approached Him with this question. So can we say that He answered their question, seeing as how they only asked it in order to "entangle Him in His talk" (v.15)? Perhaps... I think that He did (my teacher / friend does not think so, but I find it hard to believe that Jesus may have misled the multitudes who heard this by not actually answering).

This is what I now think Jesus was really saying here about marriage and the resurrection (we must keep it in context with the surrounding story): What exactly is said will not happen in the resurrection? Is there any mention of those who are already married? No! (This is the new perspective I was talking about.) And what exactly is the question Jesus is answering? A man, married to a woman, dies, and gives his wife in marriage to his brother, and they are married. This is what Jesus says will not happen in the resurrection (v.30)!

:o

Do you see what this means?! I (and I alone) will still be married to my wife for all of eternity! Yeah! Hallelujah! Granted, I'm not so sure that He answered the question that I now have, which is their question (but asked sincerely), "will she be married to all seven, or just the first, since all had sexual relations with her?", and other similar questions, but it may have something to do with it being a law of Moses' "because of the hardness of their hearts" (Matt. 19:8)...? I don't know - all I know is that my wife will forever be my wife, and that gives me such a joy that I just had to share this with you all!

If you disagree, please, by all means, talk with me! What are your reactions to what I've presented here?

- Lk.11

Duane Morse
Dec 16th 2007, 10:03 AM
Adam was separated into Adam and Eve.
Yet, they were a part of Jesus from the beginning.

They will yet again be one flesh (joined together again), and still in Jesus.

Seeing the trees for the forest - or the forest through the trees.
That is what it takes to understand.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 16th 2007, 09:16 PM
Adam was separated into Adam and Eve.
Yet, they were a part of Jesus from the beginning.

They will yet again be one flesh (joined together again), and still in Jesus.

Wha...? I am way confused by what you mean here. Adam came from the dust, and Eve came from Adam. Adam wasn't "separated" into two persons. And, in my case, being married, I wasn't separated into two persons either... And Christ isn't divided... What exactly are you saying, and how does this relate to Matt. 22:23-33?


Seeing the trees for the forest - or the forest through the trees.
That is what it takes to understand.

Well "that", and some sort of a decoding device to understand what you mean by "that".

Tanya~
Dec 16th 2007, 09:26 PM
The marriage relationship between a husband and a woman is a type of the relationship between Christ and the church:

Eph 5:28-32
28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Because marriage is a type of the relationship of Christ and the church, there will be no more marriage in the resurrection. We will have and experience the fulfillment of the type. We will have the substance of the shadow. The husband is a symbol of Christ, and the wife is a symbol of the church.

It isn't that everyone is going to have an intimate relationship with your wife. You are rightly jealous of that relationship. :) But in the resurrection, things will be different. Don't worry about it! Enjoy your wife. Enjoy your marriage. Keep Christ in the center of it. And I pray that the Lord will give you peace about it in time.

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 16th 2007, 09:32 PM
I'm not quite sure how you came to your opinion from the reading to be honest.

What you state at the beginning still rings true to me, that the one-ness, the closeness we only have with our spouses in this life, we will have with everyone in heaven through Jesus. We will 'know' each other completely. Intimacy in the terms we understand it will not really exist, but we will all be 'as one' with each other.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2007, 08:14 AM
The marriage relationship between a husband and a woman is a type of the relationship between Christ and the church:
Eph 5:28-32
28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Because marriage is a type of the relationship of Christ and the church, there will be no more marriage in the resurrection. We will have and experience the fulfillment of the type. We will have the substance of the shadow. The husband is a symbol of Christ, and the wife is a symbol of the church.

When types are fulfilled, are the types then abolished...? Not necessarily, because then the fulfillment would also have to have an end. And no, because we still have marriage today, even though we're also married to Jesus today. What I mean is, is that if my marriage is a picture of Christ and His church, then if my marriage ends, then Jesus' marriage to His church is not eternal either. See what I mean?


It isn't that everyone is going to have an intimate relationship with your wife. You are rightly jealous of that relationship. :) But in the resurrection, things will be different. Don't worry about it! Enjoy your wife. Enjoy your marriage. Keep Christ in the center of it. And I pray that the Lord will give you peace about it in time.

I do have a peace about it (finally!), because I now understand Matt. 22:23-33 rightly! My marriage to my wife continues in the resurrection - it never ends! We've all been reading this passage incorrectly! He's not saying that marriage ends, but rather quite the opposite! In Luke's account it is made much more plain: we live to God now, because God is the God of the living - a believer, married, who falls asleep, remains married to his / her spouse because he / she is not truly dead (otherwise God is not their God, as He is not the God of the dead); therefore, in the resurrection, we will neither marry nor will we be given in marriage to our sleeping saint's sibling(s) upon their falling asleep, as the sons of the resurrection can not die! I am a son of the resurrection today, because I have the Holy Spirit! Ha ha! God is so good to us! Amen?

- Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2007, 08:38 AM
I'm not quite sure how you came to your opinion from the reading to be honest.

What you state at the beginning still rings true to me, that the one-ness, the closeness we only have with our spouses in this life, we will have with everyone in heaven through Jesus. We will 'know' each other completely. Intimacy in the terms we understand it will not really exist, but we will all be 'as one' with each other.

Sure, but you're not going to be married to my wife - only I will be. I'll still have a special bond with her that no one else can have; a marriage covenant with her. And what is the consummation of marriage...? Will we be sexless in our resurrected bodies? Of course not! Jesus is and will forever be a Man, as will I! My wife and I, if resurrected bodies sleep (which, I'm inclined to think that we will), the two of us will still sleep in the same bed; a bed of our own. And we will still consummate our marriage - I doubt in order for child birth (though, being a new father and loving it, I'm not fully settled about that either), but surely to ever bring fulfillment to our marriage... God made sex to be within the confines of marriage and He called it good: I don't know how else to say it.

I really love talking about this! What are everyone's thoughts? - Lk.11

Duane Morse
Dec 17th 2007, 08:47 AM
And if you two are one again - one?
In mind, soul, and body?

No more twain, but joined as one - mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically... ONE! ???


There would be no more a physical interaction between you two - because you two would be joined in and as the same physical entity.

Tanya~
Dec 17th 2007, 04:32 PM
I see what you mean, but this is exactly what Jesus was talking about. The Sadducees asked Jesus whose wife the woman would be in the resurrection, if she had had 7 husbands in her lifetime. They of course didn't believe in the resurrection. Jesus tells them that in the resurrection, there is no marriage. People will be like the angels. If marriage remained in the resurrection, then would a woman who is widowed and remarried have two husbands in the resurrection? If you are dissatisfied with Jesus' answer, what is your answer to the Sadducees' question? Whose wife would the woman be, since she had 7 husbands?

I don't agree that it necessarily follows that if marriage ends, it means our relationship with Christ is not eternal. The types are not exact representations of every aspect of the thing they represent. They are just types and shadows.


I now understand Matt. 22:23-33 rightly! My marriage to my wife continues in the resurrection - it never ends! We've all been reading this passage incorrectly! He's not saying that marriage ends, but rather quite the opposite!

Sometimes our emotions get in the way of rightly dividing the word of truth.


In Luke's account it is made much more plain: we live to God now, because God is the God of the living - a believer, married, who falls asleep, remains married to his / her spouse because he / she is not truly dead (otherwise God is not their God, as He is not the God of the dead); therefore, in the resurrection, we will neither marry nor will we be given in marriage to our sleeping saint's sibling(s) upon their falling asleep, as the sons of the resurrection can not die! I am a son of the resurrection today, because I have the Holy Spirit! Ha ha! God is so good to us! Amen?

I agree that God is good to us, but I cannot "amen" your comments. If you were correct, and if one or the other of you were to die young, and the other remarried, then they would be committing adultery. But it is not adultery for a widowed person to remarry. The reason is that the law binds husband and wife together until death. Physical death, even though spiritually the believer has not died, still separates husband and wife and releases the surviving spouse from the marriage, freeing them to marry again.


Rom 7:1-3

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband . 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2007, 06:01 PM
And if you two are one again - one?
In mind, soul, and body?

No more twain, but joined as one - mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically... ONE! ???


There would be no more a physical interaction between you two - because you two would be joined in and as the same physical entity.

I've never heard anyone say such a thing. No. I will forever be myself, and she will forever be herself. What is your biblical evidence? How far would that go? Will we all share one body, even with Jesus? And what about those who take part in the resurrection of the unjust - will they all be one body as well? This just doesn't make any sense, nor is this desirable! Then Jesus wouldn't be Jesus anymore, and we'd all be God. No. I see your heart and I can kind of see your logic, but your logic is flawed. God loves me. Heck, I love me! I just can't see what you're saying in Scripture, as it is not a desire of God's. Marriage (sexual intimacy) between a man and a woman tells us what biblical one-ness is - never does Jesus or anyone else in the Bible talk about one-ness in the way that you have. And so I have to reject that idea, and I suggest that you do as well. - Lk.11

matthew94
Dec 17th 2007, 06:32 PM
Death is a valid end to a marriage, otherwise Paul wouldn't have recommended that younger widows re-marry. But just b/c death ends a marriage doesn't mean there won't be a special intimacy with your former spouse in eternity. Why wouldn't there be? I'm not of the persuasion that our memories are wiped clean. We'll still have a history of love with that person and a special commitment. Our relationship with that person will certainly be heightened in comparison to that person's relationship with the rest of mankind in eternity. I expect we'll still have deeper relationships with our spouse, our family, our church family, etc.

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 17th 2007, 06:38 PM
Sure, but you're not going to be married to my wife - only I will be. I'll still have a special bond with her that no one else can have; a marriage covenant with her. And what is the consummation of marriage...? Will we be sexless in our resurrected bodies? Of course not! Jesus is and will forever be a Man, as will I! My wife and I, if resurrected bodies sleep (which, I'm inclined to think that we will), the two of us will still sleep in the same bed; a bed of our own. And we will still consummate our marriage - I doubt in order for child birth (though, being a new father and loving it, I'm not fully settled about that either), but surely to ever bring fulfillment to our marriage... God made sex to be within the confines of marriage and He called it good: I don't know how else to say it.

I really love talking about this! What are everyone's thoughts? - Lk.11
Interesting :)

Forgive my (inevitable & frequent) ignorance, but- where do we get the marriage vows from? Is there a biblical source for "until death us do part" or not?

Because of course, the main issue is when God considers the marriage to end. If it ended at death, that would rather suggest a marriage exclusively of the flesh, which seems to go against what he wants for us... Hmm...

Joe King
Dec 17th 2007, 06:59 PM
Rejoice! You will be with your wife for eternity! Just not as it is down here.

matthew94
Dec 17th 2007, 07:14 PM
Is there a biblical source for "until death us do part" or not?

Because of course, the main issue is when God considers the marriage to end. If it ended at death, that would rather suggest a marriage exclusively of the flesh, which seems to go against what he wants for us... Hmm...

I agree that this is the main issue. I think the Bible is the basis for the 'till death' clause (not in terms of specific wording, but in terms of principle).

1 Timothy 5:14
So I counsel younger widows to marry

Romans 7:1-3
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 18th 2007, 02:06 AM
I see what you mean, but this is exactly what Jesus was talking about. The Sadducees asked Jesus whose wife the woman would be in the resurrection, if she had had 7 husbands in her lifetime. They of course didn't believe in the resurrection.

The Sadducees were attempting, in their craftiness, to catch Jesus in His words, that they might show Him before the people to be false, that the people would turn against Him. They did not have a legitimate concern about this probable situation - they were ultimately seeking to kill Jesus. The Sadducees were afraid of the resurrection, and with all their strength squelched the teaching of the resurrection from the dead (as did the Romans), because the teaching was that the lowly would be put in power, and those in power now would then be made to be slaves - Luke 1:50-53 (and because if an army could raise the dead, they would be an unstoppable force). Jesus was saying here that they would have no place in His kingdom, and the crowd, being mostly the poor, marveled at His teaching.


Jesus tells them that in the resurrection, there is no marriage.

Is that what He says? No. He's answering a specific question. What's the question? The question entails a woman who is given in marriage and becomes married to her dead husband's siblings. Jesus says that this will not happen in the resurrection, because there will be no death in the resurrection.


People will be like the angels.

And what does He mean here? Do you have some insight into angelic life that no one else has, such as them being sexless or perhaps celibate? Rather, Jesus tells them what He means by that (Luke 20:36) - that the sons of the resurrection are sons of God, just like the elect angels, and can no longer die. Us being like the angels has nothing to do with marriage, but is about eternal life and son-ship.


If marriage remained in the resurrection, then would a woman who is widowed and remarried have two husbands in the resurrection? If you are dissatisfied with Jesus' answer, what is your answer to the Sadducees' question? Whose wife would the woman be, since she had 7 husbands?

Jesus' answer is not that no one will be married in the resurrection! His answer is this: "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matt. 22:29)! That's His answer! I don't get it and I don't have an answer, though I've been praying and thinking about this hard. I mean, Solomon had seven hundred wives! All those mentioned in this passage but Isaac had more than one wife: Moses (Ex. 2:21; Num. 12:1), Abraham (Gen. 11:29; 16:3; 25:1), and Jacob (Gen. 29:23; 29:28), which I find very interesting...


Sometimes our emotions get in the way of rightly dividing the word of truth.

True. Check yourself as well. ;)


I agree that God is good to us, but I cannot "amen" your comments. If you were correct, and if one or the other of you were to die young, and the other remarried, then they would be committing adultery. But it is not adultery for a widowed person to remarry. The reason is that the law binds husband and wife together until death. Physical death, even though spiritually the believer has not died, still separates husband and wife and releases the surviving spouse from the marriage, freeing them to marry again.
Rom 7:1-3

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband . 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.


Why'd you leave off verse 4...? "Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another - to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God." I don't see the phrase "that you may instead be married to another", do you? Who says that it's adultery to remarry when our spouse passes away (or even to have more than one wife at a time, as witnessed in the lives of the patriarchs - though now we are not encouraged to do this; 1 Cor. 7:2)? Not me, and not Rom. 7:3 (which actually says that she will not be an adulteress). And what is "the law of her husband" (v.2), in context to the passage at large? Remember, Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, and we are to fulfill the law too, by loving our neighbors as ourselves, and loving God with our everything... So what is Paul talking about here? When he says "husband", he is talking about the law; when he says "wife", he is talking about all people; and when he says "dies", he is talking about our belief in the cross. So it's not "until death parts you", because we are told in v.3 that she has married another man (in addition to her first). We are to keep the law, because all sin is lawlessness. Is this clear?

- Lk.11

nzyr
Dec 18th 2007, 05:22 AM
There won't be any marriages in heaven. Evidently when humans become immortal the marriage relationship ceases. But don't worry. If you and your wife want to continue being together through eternity I don't think that will be a problem.

Bick
Dec 21st 2007, 07:49 AM
To me, words can not be any plainer in Matt. 22:30, "FOR IN THE RESURRECTION THEY NEITHER MARRY NOR OR GIVEN IN MARRIAGE, BUT ARE AS THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN."

"They" has to refer back to the subjects: the woman and the seven brothers. In the resurrection they couldn't still be married, or Jesus would not have said, "they neither marry nor or given in marriage.." AV.

The important thing is to rightly divide the Word.

Jeus came unto his own---Israel. He preached "repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand" RNT. This was the Messianic kingdom, the hope of Israel.

The resurrection referred to, would be the resurrection of all the righteous Israelites (from Abraham on) and the believing proselytes from the nations, to take place on the earth after Jesus returns as Messiah to defeat His enemies and rescue believing Israelites alive on earth.

As believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour, Paul tells us we are in the body of Christ. Our future is in the heavenlies, where we will have special spiritual bodies. Because we are in Christ by faith, and he is us, there is neither Jew nor Greek, "there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ." Gal.3:28.

That's our position "in Christ." But, "in the Lord", here on earth, there is husband and wife, children subject to their parents, Jews, Gentiles, servants, free men, etc.

What we will be blessed with in the heavenlies will, I'm sure, far surpass anything on this earth. Read Ephesians chapts one through three!

ServantofTruth
Dec 21st 2007, 05:20 PM
I know a couple who are not having children in this/ satans world, but plan to have the children they long for in the next perfect life. This always seemed very odd to me with 5 sons! Boy are they heading for a huge disappointment, if they 'qualify' for the next eternal life! Of course the other benefits should be enough compensation?!:hug:

MMC
Dec 21st 2007, 05:45 PM
I agree that this is the main issue. I think the Bible is the basis for the 'till death' clause (not in terms of specific wording, but in terms of principle).

1 Timothy 5:14
So I counsel younger widows to marry

Romans 7:1-3
1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

When you read this in connection with our Lord's words in Matthew, the message is plain. (To me it is, anyway). The marriage we have with our spouses ceases at death.

It doesn't seem too difficult to grasp when I consider that our earthly love for one another must be quite pale in comparison to the Love we will know when in His presence. I for one, can't wait. Would that it would happen right NOW!......

.....okay....NOW!

.......the Lord's gonna make me wait some more, it seems....

(....*darn it*.....) ;)

Semi-tortured
Dec 21st 2007, 05:59 PM
Death is a valid end to a marriage, otherwise Paul wouldn't have recommended that younger widows re-marry. But just b/c death ends a marriage doesn't mean there won't be a special intimacy with your former spouse in eternity. Why wouldn't there be? I'm not of the persuasion that our memories are wiped clean. We'll still have a history of love with that person and a special commitment. Our relationship with that person will certainly be heightened in comparison to that person's relationship with the rest of mankind in eternity. I expect we'll still have deeper relationships with our spouse, our family, our church family, etc.

We will remember our spouses, but I don't think there will be spouses. I too don't believe our memories will be wiped clean. If that was done, we wouldn't know why we were in heaven. It would basically make the old person cease to exist and then an entirely new, previously non-exsitent person is created that happens to look like you. I mean, without our memories and personalities what are we?

Friend of I AM
Dec 21st 2007, 08:18 PM
When you read this in connection with our Lord's words in Matthew, the message is plain. (To me it is, anyway). The marriage we have with our spouses ceases at death.

It doesn't seem too difficult to grasp when I consider that our earthly love for one another must be quite pale in comparison to the Love we will know when in His presence. I for one, can't wait. Would that it would happen right NOW!......

.....okay....NOW!

.......the Lord's gonna make me wait some more, it seems....

(....*darn it*.....) ;)

God is light. There is no darkness in him. The disciple John's Word's were also encouraging - Particularly when he says "when we see him, we will be like him." I can only imagine that we will still retain some of the memories we had of this life, but like God - knowing that this life was full of rebellion against him - and being fully righteous like him - we will forget about them. That's a wonderful thing to know, I don't want to remember my past sins or times of rebellion against him, I want to only be filled with the Joy of his presence when the time comes to be reunited with him again.

MMC
Dec 21st 2007, 08:48 PM
I want to only be filled with the Joy of his presence when the time comes to be reunited with him again.

Amen to that!!!
(Good to hear from ya, Friend! :hug:)

brandonspopo
Dec 27th 2007, 09:58 PM
I'm happily married. When I get to heaven, my entire focus will be Jesus/God. All I will do and want to do is worship Him. To be in His presence. I will know Moses, David, and you (collectively). I will have all knowledge and understanding of the course of human events and of how awesome our God is.
Folks, it won't be about us. It is about Him. There will be nothing else I will want to do.:pp

Athanasius
Dec 27th 2007, 11:13 PM
Memory wiping? I think that's a teaching that would drive me away from Christianity.
In the words of Milton, "Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heaven".

Not that I adhere to that thought.

BadDog
Dec 28th 2007, 12:16 AM
AStrongerThanHe,

Good question, and one which has bothered others over the centuries. My reaction is that, since some will be married to more than one spouse in this life, that such marriage will not continue in the life hereafter.

If such could occur, then Jesus would not have addressed their concerns.

Will procreation continue in heaven? That also does not seem likely.

So if there be some sort of "marriage" in heaven, it will not be sexual in nature.

FWIW,

BD

Nihil Obstat
Dec 28th 2007, 04:52 AM
I'm happily married. When I get to heaven, my entire focus will be Jesus/God. All I will do and want to do is worship Him. To be in His presence. I will know Moses, David, and you (collectively). I will have all knowledge and understanding of the course of human events and of how awesome our God is.
Folks, it won't be about us. It is about Him. There will be nothing else I will want to do.:pp

Why do you have to wait until heaven to have this relationship with Him? Simply because you're married? That doesn't make any sense...

Nihil Obstat
Dec 28th 2007, 05:03 PM
There won't be any marriages in heaven. Evidently when humans become immortal the marriage relationship ceases.

But this is exactly the reason that I began this thread. Jesus says no such thing in this passage! We read the Bible so fast that we often miss what it's actually saying to us (please don't take me wrong - I'm guilty of this all the time). In this passage (Matt. 22:23-33; Mark 12:18-27; Luke 20:27-38), Jesus says that no one in the resurrection will become married, nor will they be given in marriage (both being future events). But does He say that those who were married before will no longer be married? NO! Rather, He says that in the resurrection, we will no longer die, and therefore those who are married in the resurrection have no need of making provision (in the case of death as it is now) to be given and to become married to a husband's sibling(s)! Jesus is saying that the kingdom of this present evil age is broken, and that His kingdom isn't. And Jesus doesn't even address the "issue" of being married to more than one husband or wife, because Abraham, Jacob, and Moses all had more than one wife! Apparently it's not an issue to Jesus, because His answer to that is this: "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God." That's all He has to say about the so-called "issue" of multiple spouses in the resurrection. Frustrating, but true. We're still left with the question originally posed to Jesus, even though now we know that there will be married people in the resurrection. We'll be like the angels, meaning we will be sons of God and will never die (Luke 20:36) - us being like the angels of God in heaven has nothing to do with marriage. Jesus isn't worried (in the same way that we are) about "who's wife she becomes", because He knows His Father; that He will judge perfectly and that He "will wipe away every tear from their eyes" (Rev. 21:4). I'm not professing to understand this - I'm openly confused about who will be her husband in the resurrection. But I have one thing that these Sadducees did not have - sincerity. And so I trust that I will understand in days to come...

- Lk.11

Romulus
Dec 28th 2007, 06:31 PM
Just another view for the original OP:

Here is the scripture you quoted with the areas I am referencing:

Matthew 22 (NKJV)
23 ...the Sadducees, who say that there is no resurrection [they also do not believe in angels - see v.30; Luke 20:36], came to (Jesus) and asked Him, 24 saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.

"25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also.

"28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. (The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage - Luke 20:34) 30 in the resurrection they (who are counted worthy to attain that age - Luke 20:35) neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven (nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection - Luke 20:36).

"31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read (in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage - Mark 12:26) what was spoken to you by God [they also believed that only the Pentateuch was inspired of God], saying, '32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (for all live to Him - Luke 20:38)."

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at His teaching...

First off the question was meant to stump Jesus, we can naturally see that through the example of all the brothers who married the same woman. Jesus then answers their question fully knowing what they are trying to do but he does not answer their question specifically. Let me explain. The premise of their argument is based upon the physical fleshly world and not on the spiritual Kingdom which is what Jesus was trying to lead to. Almost every teaching Jesus spoke was proclaiming the coming kingdom of God The example used to stump Jesus was not thinking of heavenly things but of earthly things. Marriage is a gift given on earth, but they were now trying to explain an earthly concept within a heavenly one. Jesus is of course willing to answer their question but his response is

[B]"You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Jesus is not answering their question specifically because their premise right from the start is wrong. We have to therefore based on Jesus that earthly marriage in heaven is not being answered here. It may have been asked, but not answered. Jesus then goes further to state that at the resurrection we will be like the angels in heaven(Believers are given a spiritual body at this time.) Notice how Jesus then mentions Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who were all physically dead at this time but Jesus still states that they are "living". Right from here we can see that Jesus is not talking about a flesh and blood earthly reality, but of a spiritual one.

I won't go further into where this has other ramifications as I have discussed with the moderators and they wish for me not to present it but I leave the following scripture to back up this idea:

Galations 3

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The above scripture is the truth within the kingdom of God. There is no Jew or Greek but even more interestingly enough, no male or female. There is no distinction in Christ. Since there is no male or female in the Kingdom of God, how can a question about marriage be asked in conjunction with the Kingdom of God. I don't believe it can. It is simply viewing the resurrection and the kingdom of God through spiritual eyes rather then through earthly physical eyes. This of course does not mean we are no longer male or female and that you will cease to forget the past experience or cease the relationship with your spouse, not at all! I believe Jesus was trying to separate an earthly understanding of the Kingdom from the true heavenly understanding of the Kingdom which is why he told the teachers they were mistaken to begin with in their question. The scripture was about the Kingdom of God and not about earthly understanding of sexes or race. The understanding of the Kingdom is also shown in the the following scripture:

Luke 17

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Here we have Jesus again stating the same concept. Most believed the Kingdom would come by clear observation but Jesus is stating it would not be a physical manifestation that could be seen, since the Kingdom of God was within those who dwelt in it, believers in Him. It is a reality now! We have been restored to God our Father and are in Covenant with Him Jesus Christ our Lord.

Just another view. God Bless!

brandonspopo
Dec 30th 2007, 12:57 AM
Why do you have to wait until heaven to have this relationship with Him? Simply because you're married? That doesn't make any sense... That's silly and not what I meant. My relationship with my Father is a work in progress. There are distractions here on earth, things that force me to look away from Him - like family or work issues. When I get to heaven, God's work on me will be complete - I will be perfect. There will be nothing in heaven that will distract me from worshiping my Lord. Not my earthly wife or children. They will be right beside me worshiping. There can be nothing better for me to do, no greater reward than to be able to worship Him every moment for eternity! Think about it.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 31st 2007, 06:52 AM
That's silly and not what I meant. My relationship with my Father is a work in progress. There are distractions here on earth, things that force me to look away from Him - like family or work issues. When I get to heaven, God's work on me will be complete - I will be perfect. There will be nothing in heaven that will distract me from worshiping my Lord. Not my earthly wife or children. They will be right beside me worshiping. There can be nothing better for me to do, no greater reward than to be able to worship Him every moment for eternity! Think about it.

I am thinking about it, and you still don't make any sense... Your wife and children distract you from worshiping God? Mine thrust me into worship! Why would God tell Adam and Eve (Gen. 1:28), Noah and his sons with their wives (Gen. 9:1), and Jacob (Gen. 35:11) to be fruitful and multiply if doing so would keep them from the fullness of Him? Why do bishops and deacons need to be husbands and fathers (1 Tim. 3:1-5, 12-13) if single men would better fit the position? Why is a wife (Prov. 12:4; 18:22; 31:10-31) and children (Ps. 127:3-5; 128:3) blessings from the Lord? I want to, with all gentleness, say to you that your theology concerning marriage and children needs to be re-thought...

And work keeps you from glorifying God? We are to do all things to the glory of God (cp. 1 Cor. 10:31)! There shouldn't be the distinction between "secular" and "sacred" for the Christ follower, who has their citizenship in heaven. Paul made tents, Jesus worked as a stone mason and wood worker, and over 99% of the body of Christ works full time in the market place. It's not a lesser calling! Nor should it keep you from the deep things of God! Do not allow that ideology to take root - cast it down with prayer and fasting (2 Cor. 10:3-5). God loves work, and is always at work - He is the one who instituted work, and in the millennium on into eternity we will forever work with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Isa. 9:6-7; Matt. 11:29-30; Rev. 21:4)!

We are to fully love God while we work, while we parent, and while we are with our spouse. We are to love our spouse like Jesus loves the church (Eph. 5:22-33)! How can you say that being married hinders you from worshiping God fully? - Lk.11

MMC
Dec 31st 2007, 02:20 PM
I am thinking about it, and you still don't make any sense... Your wife and children distract you from worshiping God? Mine thrust me into worship! Why would God tell Adam and Eve (Gen. 1:28), Noah and his sons with their wives (Gen. 9:1), and Jacob (Gen. 35:11) to be fruitful and multiply if doing so would keep them from the fullness of Him? Why do bishops and deacons need to be husbands and fathers (1 Tim. 3:1-5, 12-13) if single men would better fit the position? Why is a wife (Prov. 12:4; 18:22; 31:10-31) and children (Ps. 127:3-5; 128:3) blessings from the Lord? I want to, with all gentleness, say to you that your theology concerning marriage and children needs to be re-thought...

And work keeps you from glorifying God? We are to do all things to the glory of God (cp. 1 Cor. 10:31)! There shouldn't be the distinction between "secular" and "sacred" for the Christ follower, who has their citizenship in heaven. Paul made tents, Jesus worked as a stone mason and wood worker, and over 99% of the body of Christ works full time in the market place. It's not a lesser calling! Nor should it keep you from the deep things of God! Do not allow that ideology to take root - cast it down with prayer and fasting (2 Cor. 10:3-5). God loves work, and is always at work - He is the one who instituted work, and in the millennium on into eternity we will forever work with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Isa. 9:6-7; Matt. 11:29-30; Rev. 21:4)!

We are to fully love God while we work, while we parent, and while we are with our spouse. We are to love our spouse like Jesus loves the church (Eph. 5:22-33)! How can you say that being married hinders you from worshiping God fully? - Lk.11

Are you worshipping God perfectly now?

brandonspopo
Dec 31st 2007, 02:52 PM
Astrongerthanh, your just looking to start an argument. I don't know about you, but the world does distract from worship. It doesn't keep from my knees or from prayer or church. But they do keep me from thinking about and worship God every moment of every day, which is what I strive for. That will only be when I get to heaven. Hopefully, I've made myself clear. Anyway....I've said all I'm going to say as this has distracted from the OP and focused on you and I.:B:giveup:

edit: sorry MMC, I meant this for Astrongerthanh.

Gentile
Dec 31st 2007, 05:41 PM
To the thread starter, I think you are looking into it to much. Of course you are married to your wife. Words written 2000 years were used differently. You can't take what is written in the bible so literally.

Gentile
Dec 31st 2007, 05:43 PM
There won't be any marriages in heaven. Evidently when humans become immortal the marriage relationship ceases. But don't worry. If you and your wife want to continue being together through eternity I don't think that will be a problem.


I disagree and how do you know that? No human actually knows what happens in heaven until their time has come. I am just saying.

nzyr
Dec 31st 2007, 11:15 PM
I disagree and how do you know that? Because Jesus said so.

MMC
Jan 1st 2008, 12:59 AM
edit: sorry MMC, I meant this for Astrongerthanh.

LOL! That's okay....(I *was* a little confused by your post, but figured I'd just let it go....) :D

Nihil Obstat
Jan 1st 2008, 09:04 AM
Are you worshipping God perfectly now?

I'll leave you with two Scriptures, and you try and tell me that this isn't available - yea, even a command - to all believers daily, no matter how long they've been walking with the Lord... Matt. 5:48 and Phil. 3:12-14.

- Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Jan 1st 2008, 09:37 AM
Astrongerthanh, your just looking to start an argument. I don't know about you, but the world does distract from worship. It doesn't keep from my knees or from prayer or church. But they do keep me from thinking about and worship God every moment of every day, which is what I strive for.

I never go out looking for arguments. I was very genuine in my answer to you, knowing that many people read these posts, some saved and some not, some mature and some immature, some sincere and some insincere. I want to be a faithful witness to all, and so I often cater my posts to all, as well as to the individual(s) that I am replying to. So please don't misunderstand me when I say that though the world may distract you from worship, that your wife, children, and job are not "the world", and at the end of the day the only thing that will have kept you from entering into the fullness is you. Perhaps you need to spend time in prayer, study, and meditation and get a better definition of what Biblical worship is?


That will only be when I get to heaven.

This is what doesn't make any sense to me. A theology where perfection can only be attained daily after the resurrection is not what Jesus, Paul, John, James, Jude, or the gospel accounts taught! (Nor is it the correct understanding of "the age to come", which we are in now, testified by the inter-indwelling Holy Spirit!) Our Father has apportioned for us by the blood of Jesus and His awesome grace the ability to attain perfection every day - every night before we fall asleep, we who have truly sought perfection and mercy, are able to say that we have attained perfection that day. But tomorrow is another day, with new choices, and so until the Lord take us we cannot say that we have been perfected. Every night it is possible for us to say, "By God's grace and Jesus' blood I have attained perfection this day," and yet every following morning the slate is clean and His mercies new. Nor is heaven the end of the story, for heaven comes to earth, and Jesus will reign on the earth as a man with us forever, and we shall see the Father's face! (Eschatology excites me so much - and the Holy Spirit more so!)

- Lk.11

Friend of I AM
Jan 1st 2008, 05:46 PM
I never go out looking for arguments. I was very genuine in my answer to you, knowing that many people read these posts, some saved and some not, some mature and some immature, some sincere and some insincere. I want to be a faithful witness to all, and so I often cater my posts to all, as well as to the individual(s) that I am replying to. So please don't misunderstand me when I say that though the world may distract you from worship, that your wife, children, and job are not "the world", and at the end of the day the only thing that will have kept you from entering into the fullness is you. Perhaps you need to spend time in prayer, study, and meditation and get a better definition of what Biblical worship is?



This is what doesn't make any sense to me. A theology where perfection can only be attained daily after the resurrection is not what Jesus, Paul, John, James, Jude, or the gospel accounts taught! (Nor is it the correct understanding of "the age to come", which we are in now, testified by the inter-indwelling Holy Spirit!) Our Father has apportioned for us by the blood of Jesus and His awesome grace the ability to attain perfection every day - every night before we fall asleep, we who have truly sought perfection and mercy, are able to say that we have attained perfection that day. But tomorrow is another day, with new choices, and so until the Lord take us we cannot say that we have been perfected. Every night it is possible for us to say, "By God's grace and Jesus' blood I have attained perfection this day," and yet every following morning the slate is clean and His mercies new. Nor is heaven the end of the story, for heaven comes to earth, and Jesus will reign on the earth as a man with us forever, and we shall see the Father's face! (Eschatology excites me so much - and the Holy Spirit more so!)

- Lk.11

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I think though viewing completion of the perfection of one's Love for God as only being attained within his presence gives one a sense of hope - perhaps even a sincere longing for God as oppossed to being content and complacent with this life. We see countless examples with Jesus, the disciples, and all of the prophets looking forward to the next life and not really focusing on this one because of the conditions of this world. The disciples themselves wanted to be in the presence of the Father, due to Jesus's description to them of this perfect Love and fellowship he experienced with him.

When the perfect comes, the imperfect dissappears. For me the hope lies in the perfection of God - washing away all of the imperfection that I can see and feel within and around myself and experiencing the the fullness of Love Jesus describes as he himself experiencing with the Father. This does not mean that I don't understand that the perfection of God's grace and love exists right here and now on this earth. God is omnipresent and eternal, so of course his love can be seen throughout his entire creation. But experiencing the fullness and purity of it, and being full and pure oneself - that's what I long for. And I know that such fullness and purity can only be attained by being in his presence.

MMC
Jan 2nd 2008, 01:08 AM
I'll leave you with two Scriptures, and you try and tell me that this isn't available - yea, even a command - to all believers daily, no matter how long they've been walking with the Lord... Matt. 5:48 and Phil. 3:12-14.

- Lk.11

Thank you for the scripture cites. I did read them. In the first, Christ commands us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father is perfect. (I understand that to mean we are to be righteous, just as God is righteous). And in the second, Paul states that he strives for perfection every day, but does not claim to have yet attained it. (He is always pressing on toward the goal of righteousness like that of the Father, but has not yet attained it in this life).

Is this a correct understanding of those passages?

In the next verses Paul says "All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained." (Phil 3:15-16).

I agree that "be perfect" is a command. I just didn't understand what you meant by saying you are never distracted by worldy things (in Brandonspopo's example, it was marriage - but it could be any thing "of the world" that might distract you on occasion). I agree we ought not be distracted, and that if we are allowing the HOly Spirit to work in our lives, and come daily to God with a repentant and humble heart, we are less likely to be so distracted. But I have never met anyone who has NEVER been distracted from worship by worldly things. That is why I asked if you worshipped perfectly.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind" is also a command - but I don't know anyone that does that perfectly either.

Your later posts seem to address my question a bit more directly. Although I confess I'm confused now by what you mean by "perfection". Can you explain what you mean by "perfection" to me?

Obviously, Paul thinks this is an important thing to grasp, so I honestly do want to understand it. THanks!

YSIC,
MMC

Nihil Obstat
Jan 2nd 2008, 06:06 PM
I think that perfection means to abide in all the light that you have been given by the Holy Spirit...

But though Jesus may have been interrupted by people, He was never distracted from worshiping His Father in heaven! So often we see people interrupting Him as He is teaching, and in His patience He answers them, and then continues with His teaching (cp. Luke 12:13-15). He only does what He sees the Father doing... Or when people would be a distraction, He goes into the wilderness to pray (cp. Luke 5:15-16). Jesus never let anything or anyone keep Him from a worshipful heart. In His patience He glorified God! In His serving, in going low, He magnified His Father! Jesus showed the full extent of His love - how? - by the cross? - no! but rather by washing His disciples' feet (John 13:1-17 NIV)! Be a servant of all, and you worship God in all things! A cup of water given in His name to another is as if you gave it to Him (Matt. 25:40)... Serve in your marriage, in your parenting, and at your job, and you serve Jesus!

- Lk.11

MMC
Jan 3rd 2008, 12:56 AM
I think that perfection means to abide in all the light that you have been given by the Holy Spirit...

But though Jesus may have been interrupted by people, He was never distracted from worshiping His Father in heaven! So often we see people interrupting Him as He is teaching, and in His patience He answers them, and then continues with His teaching (cp. Luke 12:13-15). He only does what He sees the Father doing... Or when people would be a distraction, He goes into the wilderness to pray (cp. Luke 5:15-16). Jesus never let anything or anyone keep Him from a worshipful heart. In His patience He glorified God! In His serving, in going low, He magnified His Father! Jesus showed the full extent of His love - how? - by the cross? - no! but rather by washing His disciples' feet (John 13:1-17 NIV)! Be a servant of all, and you worship God in all things! A cup of water given in His name to another is as if you gave it to Him (Matt. 25:40)... Serve in your marriage, in your parenting, and at your job, and you serve Jesus!

- Lk.11

I think you may need to dumb this down for me a bit. I understand that Jesus was never distracted - He was sinless. I am not. I even understand how perfectly Christ demonstrated love - and that I am to do the same. Although I am a work in progress, I have not yet become perfect in Christ. I still stumble, and I have not yet learned to love perfectly like Christ loves perfectly. Are you saying that we have the ability, here and now - like Jesus - to be sinless? (I've always understood the word "perfection" to mean "without flaw." In spritual terms, to be without flaw is to be sinless.)

I guess I don't know what you mean by "abide by all the light you have been given by the Holy Spirit." DO you mean that we should live according to that which has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, through the power of the Holy SPirit?

I'm sorry if I'm totally dense..I've only recently come back into the Church, and begun studying my Bible in earnestness, and I am sometimes confused by terminology that is common in the Church, but might not make a lot of sense to an outsider...maybe if you could quote each of my questions and respond directly it would help...

Thanks again!
- MMC

Friend of I AM
Jan 3rd 2008, 12:19 PM
I think that perfection means to abide in all the light that you have been given by the Holy Spirit...


I can agree with this. Here's a verse that supports that assertion.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Here we see from John, that if we walk in light the light that we walk in cleanses us from all sin. Cleansing I think means keeping us in the light, as well as abiding in a spirit of humilty before almighty God. I don't think though that the Word is saying that we've become sinless yet due to verse 8 -

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

MMC
Jan 3rd 2008, 05:38 PM
I can agree with this. Here's a verse that supports that assertion.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Here we see from John, that if we walk in light the light that we walk in cleanses us from all sin. Cleansing I think means keeping us in the light, as well as abiding in a spirit of humilty before almighty God. I don't think though that the Word is saying that we've become sinless yet due to verse 8 -

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


Aaaah! :idea: Thank you, Friend. That explanation makes a lot more sense to me.