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deepjagga
Dec 17th 2007, 02:34 AM
The fourth temple is next. When will the fourth temple be built?

What's holding it up from being built?

markedward
Dec 17th 2007, 05:30 AM
If you're speaking of a fourth temple, what/who do you think is the third temple?

Biblically speaking, Jesus is the third temple, and Biblically speaking, there won't be a fourth temple. For a literal physical temple to be built, the builders need God's approval; God gave His approval for the first temple (Solomon's Temple), and He gave His approval for the second temple. It was His disfavor with His people that warranted the destruction of either. Since Jesus became the "third" temple, God's people have no need of a physical "fourth" temple, in which case, it won't be built without God's approval, and seeing as how a fourth temple would warrant blasphemy against Jesus, it simply won't happen... at least, not unless Jews force it into being done (and they'll have half of the world against them along the way), resulting in either a lot of dead Jews and no temple, or a temple that doesn't do anything for anyone.

Let's do a little bit of historical research.

Now, the yearly event of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) was the time when the high priest would enter the Holy of Holies to ask for God's forgiveness for the sins of the people. He had a particular red string tied to his garments, and if God forgave the people, the string turned white. If not, God killed the high priest, and the other priests dragged him out of the Holy of Holies.

However, the Talmud (a Jewish, non-Christian source) records that in the forty years preceding the second temple's destruction (i.e., from 30 AD, the year of Jesus' sacrifice, up to 70 AD, the year of the temple's destruction) that the red string did not turn white. But, the author of the Gospel of Luke and of Acts tells us that the same high priest was around both before and after Jesus' sacrifice.

Meaning, God's presence left the temple, in which case, even though the high priest's string never turned white, he wasn't killed by God. Why? Because God's temple was now Jesus; God's presence no longer resided in the physical temple, but in Jesus and His followers.

The first temple, God allowed it to be built, and when the people turned away from Him, He moved invading armies into destroying the first temple.

And only after God's people turned back to Him did He allowed a second temple to be built. And when God's people again turned away from Him, He moved invading armies into destroying the second temple.

But the epistles tell us that Jesus is now our ("third") temple, in which case, God has no need for another physical temple, and building one would only blaspheme Jesus, as He is our high priest, our temple, and our one and only sacrifice. And considering it's been nearly 2000 years without a temple, I think we have enough proof that God has been preventing the building of another physical temple, and a good amount of insurance that another one won't be built in our future.



I'm sure a lot of people here have read the Left Behind series. Did no one ever notice that once the "third temple" of the series was built, they never really said whether the priests were able to get certain things to work (such as the red-string turning white). I mean... in the story of the series, the temple was standing for a good three and a half years, yet not one mention is made about whether certain rituals or ceremonies brought anything to fruition? Probably because it'd be worldwide news that the high priest entered the Holy of Holies and was not killed by God even though the string never turned white... for three years straight.

deepjagga
Dec 17th 2007, 02:57 PM
If you're speaking of a fourth temple, what/who do you think is the third temple?

Biblically speaking, Jesus is the third temple, and Biblically speaking, there won't be a fourth temple. For a literal physical temple to be built, the builders need God's approval; God gave His approval for the first temple (Solomon's Temple), and He gave His approval for the second temple. It was His disfavor with His people that warranted the destruction of either. Since Jesus became the "third" temple, God's people have no need of a physical "fourth" temple, in which case, it won't be built without God's approval, and seeing as how a fourth temple would warrant blasphemy against Jesus, it simply won't happen... at least, not unless Jews force it into being done (and they'll have half of the world against them along the way), resulting in either a lot of dead Jews and no temple, or a temple that doesn't do anything for anyone.

Let's do a little bit of historical research.

Now, the yearly event of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) was the time when the high priest would enter the Holy of Holies to ask for God's forgiveness for the sins of the people. He had a particular red string tied to his garments, and if God forgave the people, the string turned white. If not, God killed the high priest, and the other priests dragged him out of the Holy of Holies.

However, the Talmud (a Jewish, non-Christian source) records that in the forty years preceding the second temple's destruction (i.e., from 30 AD, the year of Jesus' sacrifice, up to 70 AD, the year of the temple's destruction) that the red string did not turn white. But, the author of the Gospel of Luke and of Acts tells us that the same high priest was around both before and after Jesus' sacrifice.

Meaning, God's presence left the temple, in which case, even though the high priest's string never turned white, he wasn't killed by God. Why? Because God's temple was now Jesus; God's presence no longer resided in the physical temple, but in Jesus and His followers.

The first temple, God allowed it to be built, and when the people turned away from Him, He moved invading armies into destroying the first temple.

And only after God's people turned back to Him did He allowed a second temple to be built. And when God's people again turned away from Him, He moved invading armies into destroying the second temple.

But the epistles tell us that Jesus is now our ("third") temple, in which case, God has no need for another physical temple, and building one would only blaspheme Jesus, as He is our high priest, our temple, and our one and only sacrifice. And considering it's been nearly 2000 years without a temple, I think we have enough proof that God has been preventing the building of another physical temple, and a good amount of insurance that another one won't be built in our future.



I'm sure a lot of people here have read the Left Behind series. Did no one ever notice that once the "third temple" of the series was built, they never really said whether the priests were able to get certain things to work (such as the red-string turning white). I mean... in the story of the series, the temple was standing for a good three and a half years, yet not one mention is made about whether certain rituals or ceremonies brought anything to fruition? Probably because it'd be worldwide news that the high priest entered the Holy of Holies and was not killed by God even though the string never turned white... for three years straight.
Well, I just got back from Israel a little over a week ago and the guides taught us that the third temple is done with and out of the way because it was being built and then it was erected because the measurements were incorrect. They said that the fourth temple is to be built next, and that the only reason it has not been built yet is because while everyone knows what a cubit is, no one knows the exact measurement of a cubit.

As far as it being from the wrist to the elbow, from the tip of the fingers to the elbow, from the elbow to the thumb, etc... Know isn't that something?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/search/list/?search_book=2+Thessalonians&search_chapter_verse=2&varchapter_verse=2:4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Based on 2 Thessalonians 2:4 looks like God has given permission for some sort of temple to
be built because 2 Thess 2:4 hasn't taken place yet, and according to what it is saying, this
opposser sitteth in the temple of God.

David Taylor
Dec 17th 2007, 03:10 PM
Well, I just got back from Israel a little over a week ago and the guides taught us that the third temple is done with and out of the way because it was being built and then it was erected because the measurements were incorrect. They said that the fourth temple is to be built next, and that the only reason it has not been built yet is because while everyone knows what a cubit is, no one knows the exact measurement of a cubit.



So did you take the opportunity when they were talking about the fourth temple, to share with them that it had already been built? Did they receive the gospel message concerning the 4th temple and its everlasting glory?

Mark 14:58 "I will destroy this temple(#3) that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another(#4) made without hands. "

Acts 7:48 "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples(#3) made with hands"

Acts 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples(#3) made with hands"

Hebrews 9:11 "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle(#4), not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building(#3)"

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands(#3), which are the figures of the true(#4)"

Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us(#3); Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple(#4) in the Lord"

JesusisGod
Dec 17th 2007, 05:01 PM
Hi deepjagga.

The fourth temple is next. When will the fourth temple be built?

What's holding it up from being built?

I think the main hold up is that the place where Jews want to build the temple is controlled by Muslims. Folks in the end time section of this website have made a good case for why end time prophesies from the Bible aren't about a physical stone temple, but we should all be aware that there are Jews today who are seriously planning to build one in Israel.:hmm:

markedward
Dec 17th 2007, 07:05 PM
Based on 2 Thessalonians 2:4 looks like God has given permission for some sort of temple to
be built because 2 Thess 2:4 hasn't taken place yet, and according to what it is saying, this
opposser sitteth in the temple of God.It's also important to note that the epistles were written before the second temple's destruction, so it's easy to come to the conclusion that they were speaking of the second temple when they wrote "the temple."

deepjagga
Dec 19th 2007, 07:27 AM
So did you take the opportunity when they were talking about the fourth temple, to share with them that it had already been built? Did they receive the gospel message concerning the 4th temple and its everlasting glory?

Mark 14:58 "I will destroy this temple(#3) that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another(#4) made without hands. "

Acts 7:48 "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples(#3) made with hands"

Acts 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples(#3) made with hands"

Hebrews 9:11 "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle(#4), not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building(#3)"

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands(#3), which are the figures of the true(#4)"

Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us(#3); Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple(#4) in the Lord"

See...believers rely on the scriptures to guide them and that's good, but unbelievers will indeed be turned the way of a physical temple. A physical temple is the only thing they are going to follow. They won't follow Jesus now. They will follow whatever sits in a physical temple showing itself that it is God becasuse the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.

Therefore, a fourth temple will be built, the antichrist will sit in it, and the natural man will receive him.

deepjagga
Dec 19th 2007, 07:32 AM
Hi deepjagga.

I think the main hold up is that the place where Jews want to build the temple is controlled by Muslims. Folks in the end time section of this website have made a good case for why end time prophesies from the Bible aren't about a physical stone temple, but we should all be aware that there are Jews today who are seriously planning to build one in Israel.:hmm:
The location has already been chosen. The hold up is the coming up with exact measurement for a cubit. No one in the world is sure what it really is. They said they are waiting on another sign from God as far as how to mearsure the cubit.

deepjagga
Dec 19th 2007, 12:09 PM
It's also important to note that the epistles were written before the second temple's destruction, so it's easy to come to the conclusion that they were speaking of the second temple when they wrote "the temple."
Well, the Bible itself speaks of a temple of god, that the antichrist will be sitting in. Jesus know the
temple we pray through, but I doubt very seriously if Jesus is the temple body the antichrist will be sitting in.

The Israelies are already aware of the building of the next temple-the fourth temple that must take place.

All religions are false religions because within each religion, false gods are worshipped (directly or indirectly)
The guides in Israel told us that each of the temples represent the four main religions of the world.

godsgirl
Dec 19th 2007, 01:36 PM
Any day now perhaps the dome of the rock will be gone-one way or another-or the Ark of the Covenant will be found-one way or another though, the temple will be built. And yes, it will be physical.

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2007, 08:39 PM
but unbelievers will indeed be turned the way of a physical temple.
The thing is, unbelievers don't want to worship in a temple....they have ipods and MTV and football games which they would much rather worship with than a rebuilt Jewish animal-sacrificing building.

2000+ years ago it wasn't uncommon to sacrifice animals throughout many of the worlds religions.

Today, people would be more apt to be interested in Jesus than watching an old grey-bearded Hebrew cut open a goat, and say their sins are forgiven.

I guess Jesus had more foresight than we sometimes give him credit when he said, "not one stone will be left upon another".

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2007, 08:47 PM
Any day now perhaps the dome of the rock will be gone-one way or another-or the Ark of the Covenant will be found-one way or another though, the temple will be built. And yes, it will be physical.



The ark of the covenant....hasn't it already been found, and is boxed away in a warehouse in Washington D.C.?


No seriously....here it is....I found it!!!!

Revelation 11:19 "in heaven, the Temple of God was opened and the Ark of his covenant could be seen inside the Temple."



Noone is going to go to heaven, and drag the ark of the covenant out of the Holy Heavenly temple, and bring it back down to Earth to put it back in a stone temple made with hands.

Hebrews 9:4 "the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time THEN present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them untilthe time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building"

JesusisGod
Dec 19th 2007, 10:16 PM
Hi deepjagga.

The location has already been chosen.
Where do they plan to build it? I thought the location of the former temple was where the Dome of the Rock is and the Jews wanted to build it there. Is that the place? If so, alot of Muslims will be unhappy about it.

Kahtar
Dec 19th 2007, 11:52 PM
According to some fairly recent archeological finds, it would seem that the Dome actually sits just to the south of where the temple sat. There is apparently room to build the temple in it's original location, without the outer court, with a partition wall between it and the Dome.

godsgirl
Dec 20th 2007, 12:58 AM
The temple will be built during or near the tribulation-when Jesus is dealing with the Jewish people-the time of "Jacob's trouble".

David Taylor
Dec 20th 2007, 01:15 AM
The temple will be built during or near the tribulation-when Jesus is dealing with the Jewish people-the time of "Jacob's trouble".



The time of Jacob's Trouble is recorded in Jeremiah chapters 29-33.

Those chapters set its venue and time as being during the reign of Nebechadnezzar of Babylon.

The N.T. never mentions a time of Jacob's trouble, but rather, mentions that the Redeemer of the tribe of Jacob has already came and redeemed His people.

markedward
Dec 20th 2007, 03:21 AM
Well, the Bible itself speaks of a temple of god, that the antichrist will be sitting in. Jesus know the
temple we pray through, but I doubt very seriously if Jesus is the temple body the antichrist will be sitting in.... I didn't say that.

Merton
Dec 21st 2007, 07:31 AM
Hi

These verses in Jer 30 refer to the endtime decendants of the first believers of the churches (not unbelieving Jews) along with believing descendants from all dispersions of Gods people past and future.(the true Israel)

These verses refer to believers and their troubles, NOT to unbelivers.

Jacob was a believer who had troubles in becoming a Prince who has power with God because God hears him due to his being exercised to selflessness, NOT an unbeliever needing to come to belief through troubles.

Though I must say that the troubles of the righteous precede the majority of the saved from the destructions of the wicked of the endtimes.


Jer 30:1 The Word that came to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying,
Jer 30:2 So speaks Jehovah, God of Israel, saying, Write for yourself all the Words that I have spoken to you in a book.
Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will turn the captivity of My people Israel and Judah, says Jehovah; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4 And these are the Words that Jehovah spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah:
Jer 30:5 For so says Jehovah, We have heard a sound of trembling, of dread, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask now and see whether a male is giving birth? Why do I see every man with his hands on his loins, like a woman giving birth, and all faces are turned to paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! For that day is great, for none is like it. And it is a time of Jacob's trouble, but he will be saved out of it.
Jer 30:8 For it shall be in that day, says Jehovah of Hosts, I will break his yoke from your neck, and I will burst your bonds. And strangers will not again enslave him;
Jer 30:9 but they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up to them.
Jer 30:10 And you, O My servant Jacob, do not fear, says Jehovah. Do not be terrified, O Israel. For, lo, I will save you from afar, and your seed from the land of their captivity. And Jacob shall return, and have quiet, and be untroubled, and no one will make him afraid.
Jer 30:11 For I am with you, says Jehovah, to save you. Though I make a full end among all nations where I have scattered you, yet I will not make a full end with you. But I will correct you justly, and I will not leave you unpunished.

Merton

David Taylor
Dec 21st 2007, 12:51 PM
Jeremiah provides the context of 'Jacobs Trouble'

Jeremiah 29:1, 10, 14
"Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon; For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive. "

Jeremiah 30:3-4, 7
"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it."

Jeremiah 31:23
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness. And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks."

The 70 year Babylonian Captivity under King Nebechadnezzar was the time of Jacob's Trouble according to Jeremiah.
No other day was ever like it, and they were saved out of it, as Jeremiah prophesied.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 21st 2007, 03:34 PM
David,

Amen. Well saying.

By the way, I agree with David saying, none of 'Jocob's trouble' is mentioned anywhere in the New Testament. 'Jocob's trouble' was focus on Israel prior capivity under Babylon. It already fulfilled in year around 500 B.C.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

David Taylor
Dec 21st 2007, 03:48 PM
David,

Amen. Well saying.



Thanks Phi, but I didn't say anything. Jeremiah did all of the talking himself, and he not me, placed the venue and context of when Jacob's Trouble was.

dancedwithdolphin
Dec 21st 2007, 07:28 PM
Things happen when it is appointed by God to happen. Even the antichrist cannot be reveiled until it is his appointed time (Dont you remember that I told you this when I was with you? And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. 2 Thess. 2:5-6).

There was an appointed time for Israel to become a nation.

And I believe there will be an appointed time for the Temple.

From what I have read and heard, everything needed for the Temple is ready even the priests. They are just waiting on God.

God Bless

DeafPosttrib
Dec 21st 2007, 09:53 PM
dancewithdolphin,

Please show us where in the Bible saying that Israel will become earthly nation again before Antichrist be revealed?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Merton
Dec 21st 2007, 10:08 PM
Jeremiah provides the context of 'Jacobs Trouble'

Jeremiah 29:1, 10, 14
"Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon; For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive. "

Jeremiah 30:3-4, 7
"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it."

Jeremiah 31:23
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness. And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks."

The 70 year Babylonian Captivity under King Nebechadnezzar was the time of Jacob's Trouble according to Jeremiah.
No other day was ever like it, and they were saved out of it, as Jeremiah prophesied.

David,

Read Jeremiah ch 30. Did all these things of ch 30 occur in the past?

,
Jer 30:2 So speaks Jehovah, God of Israel, saying, Write for yourself all the Words that I have spoken to you in a book.
Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will turn the captivity of My people Israel and Judah, says Jehovah; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4 And these are the Words that Jehovah spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah:
Jer 30:5 For so says Jehovah, We have heard a sound of trembling, of dread, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask now and see whether a male is giving birth? Why do I see every man with his hands on his loins, like a woman giving birth, and all faces are turned to paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! For that day is great, for none is like it. And it is a time of Jacob's trouble, but he will be saved out of it.
Jer 30:8 For it shall be in that day, says Jehovah of Hosts, I will break his yoke from your neck, and I will burst your bonds. And strangers will not again enslave him;
Jer 30:9 but they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up to them.
Jer 30:10 And you, O My servant Jacob, do not fear, says Jehovah. Do not be terrified, O Israel. For, lo, I will save you from afar, and your seed from the land of their captivity. And Jacob shall return, and have quiet, and be untroubled, and no one will make him afraid.
Jer 30:11 For I am with you, says Jehovah, to save you. Though I make a full end among all nations where I have scattered you, yet I will not make a full end with you. But I will correct you justly, and I will not leave you unpunished.
Jer 30:12 For so says Jehovah, Your break cannot be cured; your wound is grievous.
Jer 30:13There is no one to judge your cause; for your ulcer there are no healing medicines for you.
Jer 30:14 All those loving you have forgotten you; they do not seek you. For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, because of the greatness of your iniquity. Your sins are many.
Jer 30:15 Why do you cry out over your crushing? Your pain is incurable, for the greatness of your iniquity; your sins are many, so I have done these things to you.
Jer 30:16 Therefore, all those who devour you shall be devoured. And all your foes, every one of them, shall go into captivity. And those plundering you I will give up to plunder, and all preying on you I will give up for prey.
Jer 30:17 For I will give health back to you, and I will heal you of your wounds, says Jehovah, because they called you, Outcast; saying, This is Zion; no one is seeking for her.
Jer 30:18 So says Jehovah, Behold I will turn the captivity of Jacob's tents and will have mercy on his dwelling places. And the city shall be built on her ruin heap; and the fortress shall remain on its own ordinance.
Jer 30:19 And out of them shall come thanksgiving and the voice of those who are merry. And I will multiply them, and they shall not be few. I also will honor them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20 Also, his sons shall be as before, and his assembly shall be established before Me; and I will punish all who oppress them.
Jer 30:21 And his leader shall be from him, and his ruler shall come from among him. And I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach Me. For who is he who pledged his heart to come near to Me, says Jehovah?
Jer 30:22 And you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
Jer 30:23 Behold, the tempest of Jehovah: fury goes forth, a sweeping tempest; it shall whirl on the head of the wicked.
Jer 30:24 The glow of Jehovah's anger will not turn back until He has executed, and until He has established the purposes of His heart. In latter days you will understand it.


Next post--

DeafPosttrib
Dec 21st 2007, 10:29 PM
Merton,

Remember, during in Jeremiah's time, he was a prophet of Israel, the first temple(Solomon's temple) was still there in Jerusalem. Jeremiah wrote that book, he warns them, if they do not repent, then Babylon will takeover them, and destroy the first temple, and bring them into captivity. Prior Jeremiah chapter 30, Jews were not yet captivity, they were still free, although there was two kingdoms divided - tribe of Israel and tribe of Judah, because of King Solomon's great sins of commit adultery with many women. God punished Solomon, even, many kings of Israel too, because of their sins, and also, God punished Israel because of rebel and sin against Him. That why, God allowed Babylon to captured Jerusalem, and brought them into captivity.

Later Jeremiah 30:9 was fulfilled that they will be freed out of it during time of Ezra.

Jeremiah 30 have do nothing with end times in the New Testament, because, "Jacob's trouble" is not find anywhere in the New Testament.

"Jacob's time" is related with Babylon captured Jerusalem, and brought Jews into capitvity.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Merton
Dec 21st 2007, 10:29 PM
Look at ch 31--

Jer 31:1 At that time, says Jehovah, I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:2 So says Jehovah, Israel, the people, the survivors of the sword, have found grace in the wilderness, I will go to give rest to him.
Jer 31:3 Jehovah has appeared to me from far away, saying, Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love! On account of this, with loving kindness I have drawn you.
Jer 31:4 Again I will build you, and you shall be built again, O virgin of Israel. You will again put on your tambourines and go forth in the dance of those making merry.
Jer 31:5 You shall yet plant vineyards on the mountains of Samaria, the planters shall plant and shall treat them as common.
Jer 31:6 For there shall be a day when the watchmen on Ephraim's hills shall call out, Arise and let us go up to Zion, to Jehovah our God.
Jer 31:7 For so says Jehovah, Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the head of the nations. Cry out, give praise and say, O Jehovah, save Your people, the remnant of Israel.
Jer 31:8 Behold! I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the recesses of the earth. Among them the blind, and the lame, the pregnant one, and the travailing one together, a great company shall return here.
Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and I will lead them with prayers. I will cause them to walk by rivers of waters, in a right way; they will not stumble in it. For I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My first-born.
Jer 31:10 Hear the Word of Jehovah, O nations, and declare in the coastlands far away, and say, He who scattered Israel will gather him and keep him, as a shepherd his flock.
Jer 31:11 For Jehovah has redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of the one stronger than him.
Jer 31:12 And they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and be radiant over the goodness of Jehovah, for grain, and for wine, and for oil, and for the sons of the flock and the herd. And their life shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not pine away any more at all.
Jer 31:13 Then the virgin shall rejoice in the dance, both young men and elders together. For I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
Jer 31:14 And I will fill the soul of the priests with fatness, and My people shall be satisfied with My goodness, says Jehovah.
Jer 31:15 So says Jehovah, A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing, bitter weeping: Rachel weeping for her sons; she refuses to be comforted for her sons for they are not.
Jer 31:16 So says Jehovah, Hold back your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears. For there will be a reward for your work, says Jehovah, and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer 31:17 And there is hope for your end, says Jehovah, that your sons will come again to their own territory.
Jer 31:18 Hearing I have heard Ephraim moaning over himself, saying, You have chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bull not broken in. Turn me, and I shall be turned; for You are Jehovah my God.
Jer 31:19 For after I had turned away, I repented; and after I knew, I slapped on my thigh. I was ashamed; yea, I even blushed, because I bore the reproach of my youth.
Jer 31:20Is Ephraim My dear son? Or is he a delightful child? For as often as I spoke against him, I earnestly remember him still. So My heart is stirred for him; pitying I will have pity on him, declares Jehovah.
Jer 31:21 Set up road marks for yourself; make sign posts for yourself. Set your heart toward the highway, even the way you went. Turn again, O virgin of Israel; turn again to these cities of yours.
Jer 31:22 Until when will you turn to and fro, O faithless daughter? For Jehovah has created a new thing in the land: a woman shall enclose a man.
Jer 31:23 So says Jehovah of Hosts, the God of Israel: Again they will speak this Word in the land of Judah, and in its cities, when I turn again their captivity, saying, Jehovah bless you, O home of righteousness, O holy mountain!
Jer 31:24 And Judah and all its cities shall live in it together, the tenant-farmers and those who travel with flocks.
Jer 31:25 For I satisfy the weary soul, and I have filled every sorrowful soul.
Jer 31:26 On this I awoke and looked up, and my sleep was sweet to me.
Jer 31:27 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, even I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and the seed of animal.
Jer 31:28 And it shall be, as I have watched over them to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to bring calamity; so I will watch over them to build and to plant, says Jehovah.
Jer 31:29 In those days they shall not any more say, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the teeth of the sons are dull.
Jer 31:30 But every man will die in his iniquity. Every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be dull.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah).
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, declares Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.
Jer 31:35 So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day, the laws of the moon, and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar, Jehovah of Hosts is His name.
Jer 31:36 If these ordinances depart from before Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.
Jer 31:37 So says Jehovah, If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be searched out, I will also reject all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, declares Jehovah.
Jer 31:38 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that the city will be built to Jehovah, from the Tower of Hananeel to the Corner Gate.
Jer 31:39 And the measuring line shall yet go before it to the hill Gareb, and shall go around to Goath.
Jer 31:40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and the ashes and all the fields to the torrent Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate east, shall be holy to Jehovah. It shall not be torn up, nor thrown down any more, forever.

So we see that we now live in the time when the mother of Zion is being built up, and her children for the millennium are not far away from being born.

The mother--

Rev.7:1-8 Rev.14 Rev.21

Her mortal children--

Rev.7:9-17 Rev. 18:1-4

2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all those who believe in that Day, because our testimony to you was believed.


Merton.

Merton
Dec 21st 2007, 11:25 PM
Merton,

Remember, during in Jeremiah's time, he was a prophet of Israel, the first temple(Solomon's temple) was still there in Jerusalem. Jeremiah wrote that book, he warns them, if they do not repent, then Babylon will takeover them, and destroy the first temple, and bring them into captivity. Prior Jeremiah chapter 30, Jews were not yet captivity, they were still free, although there was two kingdoms divided - tribe of Israel and tribe of Judah, because of King Solomon's great sins of commit adultery with many women. God punished Solomon, even, many kings of Israel too, because of their sins, and also, God punished Israel because of rebel and sin against Him. That why, God allowed Babylon to captured Jerusalem, and brought them into captivity.

Later Jeremiah 30:9 was fulfilled that they will be freed out of it during time of Ezra.

Jeremiah 30 have do nothing with end times in the New Testament, because, "Jacob's trouble" is not find anywhere in the New Testament.

"Jacob's time" is related with Babylon captured Jerusalem, and brought Jews into capitvity.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!


Hi DPT,

Let me show you "Jacobs trouble" other places in the OT and in the NT.


Dan 12:1 And at that time, Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as has not been from the being of a nation until that time. And at that time, your people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the Book.


These verses below refer to a time future, not to the Babylonian captivity of which you speak of.


Mat 24:21 For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days were shortened, not any flesh would be saved. But on account of the elect, those days will be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if anyone says to you, Behold, here is the Christ! Or, Here! Do not believe.
Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise up. And they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I tell you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 Then if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness; do not go out. Behold, He is in the inner rooms; do not believe.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines as far as the west, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 For wherever the dead body may be, there the eagles will be gathered.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, that he does not walk naked, and they may see his shame.

(How is anyone going to walk naked and other men see their shame, after they are supposedly killed or burnt up as you claim. The verse can only be a warning to those who lived before Christ came and begun the vials of wrath and were not taken up.)


Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel coming down out of Heaven having great authority, and the earth was lighted up from his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried in a strong, great voice, saying, Babylon the great has fallen! It has fallen, and it has become a dwelling-place of demons, and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean bird, even having been hated,
Rev 18:3 because of the wine of the anger of her fornication which all the nations have drunk, even the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her; and the merchants of the earth became rich from the power of her luxury.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of Heaven saying, My people, come out of her, that you may not share in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues;

Jacob is a reference to all believers today who are entering the Kingdom of God through trouble like as he faced in Genesis, but which will come with a rush in the endtimes, as well as to Jacobs endtimes children who will cry out for deliverence at the receiving of the messages of the witnesses of Christ. The contrast is given in the NT between the Jacobs and the Esaus, meaning those both hearing the gospel but walking different paths. Heb.12. and other places like Ez 35. and Ob.

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before pain came to her, she delivered a male child.
Isa 66:8 Who has heard a thing like this? Who has seen things like these? Shall the earth be brought forth in one day? Shall a nation be born in one step? For Zion travailed and also brought forth her sons.

Isa 49:20 The sons of your bereavement shall yet say in your ears, The place is too narrow for me; come near for me so that I may have place to live.
Isa 49:21 Then you shall say in your heart, Who has borne these to me, for I am bereaved and desolate, turned aside and an exile; who then has brought up these? Behold, I was left alone. From where do these come?
Isa 49:22 So says the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I will lift up My hand to the nations, and will set up My banner to peoples. And they shall bring your sons in the bosom, and your daughters shall be carried on the shoulder.
Isa 49:23 And kings shall be supporting you, and their princesses your nurses. They shall bow to you, faces down to the earth, and lick up the dust of your feet. And you shall know that I am Jehovah, by whom they who wait for Me shall not be ashamed.
Isa 49:24 Shall the plunder be taken from the mighty, or the righteous captive escape?
Isa 49:25 But so says Jehovah, Even the captives of the warrior shall be taken, and the plunder of the terrifying ones shall be delivered. For I will strive with him who contends with you; and I will save your sons.
Isa 49:26 And those who oppress you, I will feed with their own flesh: and they shall be drunk by their own blood, as with fresh wine. And all flesh shall know that I Jehovah am your Savior and your Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Psa 45:9 King's daughters are among Your precious ones; the queen stands at Your right hand in gold of Ophir.
Psa 45:10 Listen, O daughter, and look, and incline your ear, and forget your people and your father's house.
Psa 45:11 And the King will desire your beauty, for He is your Lord, and you shall worship Him.
Psa 45:12 And the daughter of Tyre will stroke Your face with a gift, the rich among the peoples.
Psa 45:13 The king's daughter is all glorious within, her clothing braided gold.
Psa 45:14 She shall be led to the King in embroidered work; her companions, the virgins, shall be brought to You after her.
Psa 45:15 They shall be led with gladness and rejoicing; they shall go in to the King's palace.
Psa 45:16 Your sons shall be in the place of your fathers; You will make them for rulers in all the earth.
Psa 45:17 I will make remembered Your name in every generation and generation; on this account people shall thank You forever and ever.

Read Esther for the full story of how the King chose a Bride to reign with Him in His Throne, that is after Her glorification, and after Mordecai became great among the nations, resulting in many of the nations turning to God and becoming Her people in the endtimes AFTER the death of Haman, and then also his sons.

A Bride is for the having of children to extend the family and according to scripture the Bride is not yet completed nor is it yet glorified to sit with Christ on His Throne as He overcame to sit on His Fathers Throne.


Rev 3:21 The one overcoming, I will give to him to sit with Me in My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father in His throne.


Merton.

dancedwithdolphin
Dec 22nd 2007, 09:10 PM
dancewithdolphin,

Please show us where in the Bible saying that Israel will become earthly nation again before Antichrist be revealed?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Jesus said, "They will be brutally killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be conquered and trampled down by the gentiles until the age of the gentiles comes to an end." Luke 21:24

Isaiah 49:16-26 (Just a part of the quote): ...The generations born in exile will return and say, We need more room! It's crowded here! Then you will think to yourself, Who has given me all these descendants? For most of my children were killed, and the rest were carried away into exile. I was left here all alone. Who bore thse children? Who raised them for me?

This is what the Sovereign Lord says: See, I will give a signal to the godless nations. They will carry your little sons back to you in their arms; they will bring your daughters on their shoulders...

Isaiah 60:1-22 (The part most quoted): Look and see for everyone is coming home! Your sons are coming from distant lands; your little daughters will be carried home.

Never again will you be called the Godforsaken City or the Desolate Land. Your new name will be the City of God's Delight and the Bride of God, for the Lord delights in you and will claim you as his own. Isaiah 62:4

Before the birth pains ever begin, Jerusalem gives birth to a son. Who has ever seen or heard of anything as strange as this? Has a nation ever been born in a single day? Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment? But by the time Jerusalem's birth pains begin, the baby will be born; the nation will come forth. Would I ever bring this nation to the point of birth and then not deliver it? asks the Lord. No, I would never keep this nation from being born, says your God. Isaiah 66:7-9

Instead, they will say, "As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the people of Israel back to their own land from the land of the north and from all the countries to which he had exiled them." Then they will live in their own land. Jeremiah 23:8

The time is coming, says the Lord, when all Jerusalem will be rebuilt for me, from the tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. A measuring line will be stretched out over the hill of Gareb and across to Goah. And the entire area- including the graveyard and ash dump in the valley, and all the fields out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the Horse Gate- will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be captured or destroyed. Jeremiah 31:38-40

This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I cleanse you from your sins, I will bring people to live in your cities, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The fields that used to lie empty and desolate- a shock to all who passed by- will again be farmed. And when I bring you back, people will say, This godforsaken land is now like Eden's garden! The ruined cities now have strong walls, and they are filled with people! Then the nations all around- all those still left- will know that I, the Lord, rebuilt the ruins and planted lush crops in the wilderness. For I, the Lord, have promised this, and I will do it.

This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am ready to grant them their requests. I will multiply them like the sacred flocks that fill Jerusalem's streets at the time of her festivals. The ruined cities will be crowded with people once more, and everyone will know that I am the Lord. Ezekiel 36:33-38

Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones represent the people of Israel. They are saying, 'We have become old, dry bones- all hope is gone.' Now give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: O my people, I will open your graves of exile and cause you to rise again. Then I will bring you back to the land of Israel. When this happens, O my people, you will know that I am the Lord. I will put my Spirit in you, and you will live and return home to your own land. Then you will know that I am the Lord. You will see that I have done everything just as I promised. I, the Lord, have spoken!" Ezekiel 37:11-14

I will gather the people of Israel from among the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places where they have been scattered. I will unify them into one nation in the land. One king will rule them all; no longer will they be divided into two nations.(Ez. 37:21-22)... My servant David will be their king, and they will have only one shepherd...And my servant David will be their prince forever. And I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give them their land and multiply them, and I will put my Temple among them forever. I will make my home among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people. And since my Temple will remain among them forever, the nations will know that I, the Lord, have set Israel apart for myself to be holy." (Ez. 37:24-28)

ShirleyFord
Dec 22nd 2007, 11:02 PM
Jesus said, "They will be brutally killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be conquered and trampled down by the gentiles until the age of the gentiles comes to an end." Luke 21:24

This time of God's wrath on Israel already occurred in 70 AD. And Jerusalem will be trampled upon by the Gentiles until the fulness of the Gentiles, which will be the full number of Gentiles that will be saved as well as the full number of Jews that will be saved, as per Romans 11. Then the Second Coming of Christ takes place.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.



Isaiah 49:16-26 (Just a part of the quote): ...The generations born in exile will return and say, We need more room! It's crowded here! Then you will think to yourself, Who has given me all these descendants? For most of my children were killed, and the rest were carried away into exile. I was left here all alone. Who bore thse children? Who raised them for me?

This is what the Sovereign Lord says: See, I will give a signal to the godless nations. They will carry your little sons back to you in their arms; they will bring your daughters on their shoulders...

Isaiah 60:1-22 (The part most quoted): Look and see for everyone is coming home! Your sons are coming from distant lands; your little daughters will be carried home.

Never again will you be called the Godforsaken City or the Desolate Land. Your new name will be the City of God's Delight and the Bride of God, for the Lord delights in you and will claim you as his own. Isaiah 62:4

Before the birth pains ever begin, Jerusalem gives birth to a son. Who has ever seen or heard of anything as strange as this? Has a nation ever been born in a single day? Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment? But by the time Jerusalem's birth pains begin, the baby will be born; the nation will come forth. Would I ever bring this nation to the point of birth and then not deliver it? asks the Lord. No, I would never keep this nation from being born, says your God. Isaiah 66:7-9

Instead, they will say, "As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the people of Israel back to their own land from the land of the north and from all the countries to which he had exiled them." Then they will live in their own land. Jeremiah 23:8

The time is coming, says the Lord, when all Jerusalem will be rebuilt for me, from the tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. A measuring line will be stretched out over the hill of Gareb and across to Goah. And the entire area- including the graveyard and ash dump in the valley, and all the fields out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the Horse Gate- will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be captured or destroyed. Jeremiah 31:38-40

This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I cleanse you from your sins, I will bring people to live in your cities, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The fields that used to lie empty and desolate- a shock to all who passed by- will again be farmed. And when I bring you back, people will say, This godforsaken land is now like Eden's garden! The ruined cities now have strong walls, and they are filled with people! Then the nations all around- all those still left- will know that I, the Lord, rebuilt the ruins and planted lush crops in the wilderness. For I, the Lord, have promised this, and I will do it.

This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am ready to grant them their requests. I will multiply them like the sacred flocks that fill Jerusalem's streets at the time of her festivals. The ruined cities will be crowded with people once more, and everyone will know that I am the Lord. Ezekiel 36:33-38

Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones represent the people of Israel. They are saying, 'We have become old, dry bones- all hope is gone.' Now give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: O my people, I will open your graves of exile and cause you to rise again. Then I will bring you back to the land of Israel. When this happens, O my people, you will know that I am the Lord. I will put my Spirit in you, and you will live and return home to your own land. Then you will know that I am the Lord. You will see that I have done everything just as I promised. I, the Lord, have spoken!" Ezekiel 37:11-14

I will gather the people of Israel from among the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places where they have been scattered. I will unify them into one nation in the land. One king will rule them all; no longer will they be divided into two nations.(Ez. 37:21-22)... My servant David will be their king, and they will have only one shepherd...And my servant David will be their prince forever. And I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give them their land and multiply them, and I will put my Temple among them forever. I will make my home among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people. And since my Temple will remain among them forever, the nations will know that I, the Lord, have set Israel apart for myself to be holy." (Ez. 37:24-28)

None of these....parts of quotes of Scripture that you have tried to piece together still doesn't say what you are trying to make them say.

Nothing is said in any of them that Israel would become a nation again or that a third or fourth temple would be rebuilt after the true Temple of God not made with hands came on the scene and the temporal second stone temple that pointed to the true Temple, Jerusalem and its people who rejected the true temple were destroyed by God's vengence of wrath that He poured out on them in 70 AD.


Shirley

Codger
Dec 23rd 2007, 02:58 AM
I don't believe that there will be any more temples built in Israel. First of all the Tabernacle/Temple was only a shadow of things to come. A shadow of what became a reality at the crucifixion. Look at the history of the Jews for the last 2,000 years.

God is now operating in the New Covenant. The Jews made three attempts to rebuild the Temple since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, but were frustrated in every attempt. The first attempt was during the Bar Kochba revolt in 135AD. This attempt was put down by the Emperor Hadrian. The second attempt was in 324AD under Constantine. He gave permission and later withdrew it by cutting off the ears of the priests and craftsmen. No maimed person could work on the Temple. The third attempt was under the emperor Julian the Apostate. This was frustrated yet again by subterranean fires, which destroyed the works early in its construction.

How about another temple? If you project history forward It will never happen because I think that God is continually frustrating any movement in that direction. There is not one shred of an indication anywhere that this will happen. There is no longer any need for the old animal sacrifice system because the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus has been made.

God is trying to direct, steer, herd, the Jews toward and into the New Covenant. Consider that even today God has already frustrated all the Orthodox plans for a new Temple because the place where they think it should go is under the control of the Muslims. This is the forth frustrated attempt to rebuild the Temple – I think there a pattern here.

Larry

JesusisGod
Dec 27th 2007, 02:42 PM
Hi Shirley.

Nothing is said in any of them that Israel would become a nation again or that a third or fourth temple would be rebuilt after the true Temple of God not made with hands came on the scene.....
You might be right about the scriptures referred to, but you are overlooking one inescapable fact. Israel is a nation again.

Don't know if you or anybody saw this, but on the History channel a few days ago, they interviewed this Jewish guy who said the Jews will rebuild the temple and then they showed the corner stone for the building.

Maybe scripture doesn't say anything about a future stone temple, but maybe it does. One thing is for sure. There are alot of Jews in Israel today planning to build one.

Marjiealm
Dec 27th 2007, 03:59 PM
I will gather the people of Israel from among the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places where they have been scattered. I will unify them into one nation in the land. One king will rule them all; no longer will they be divided into two nations.(Ez. 37:21-22)... My servant David will be their king, and they will have only one shepherd...And my servant David will be their prince forever. And I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give them their land and multiply them, and I will put my Temple among them forever. I will make my home among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people. And since my Temple will remain among them forever, the nations will know that I, the Lord, have set Israel apart for myself to be holy." (Ez. 37:24-28)



This scripture does show that the Lord makes 1 nation for Israel.

Well done DWD. I was trying to find this same scripture.

ShirleyFord
Dec 27th 2007, 04:40 PM
Hi Shirley.

Don't know if you or anybody saw this, but on the History channel a few days ago, they interviewed this Jewish guy who said the Jews will rebuild the temple and then they showed the corner stone for the building.

Hi JiG,

Undoubtedly "this Jewish guy" was not familiar with this OT prophecy of King David's:

Ps 118:21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.


And since "this Jewish guy" wouldn't have a clue as to what was written in the NT, he wouldn't know that Jesus, the Promised Messiah, fulfilled King David's prophecy.

Jesus is the cornerstone. Jesus said He was:

Mt 21:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures (Ps. 118:21-22), The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mk 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And have ye not read this scripture (Ps. 118:21-22); The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Lk 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written (Ps. 118:21-22), The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?


Peter said that Jesus was that cornerstone:



Acts 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.


Paul said that Jesus was that cornerstone:



Eph 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;




Peter again declares that the cornerstone that King David prophecied about was Jesus:




1 Pet 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,




No doubt, "this Jewish guy" was not familiar with Isaiah's prophecy either and wouldn't have known that Peter, another Jewish guy, declared Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled by Jesus:




1 Pet 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


Is 28:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.



Shirley

Kahtar
Dec 27th 2007, 06:48 PM
Temple Institute Announces: High Priest's Crown is Ready!

by Hillel Fendel

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124443
(IsraelNN.com) The Temple Institute in Jerusalem announces the completion of the Tzitz, the High Priest's headplate - now ready for use in the Holy Temple.

The tzitz is made of pure gold, was fashioned over the course of a more than a year by the craftsmen of the Temple Institute, and is ready to be worn by the High Priest in the rebuilt Holy Temple in Jerusalem.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/pictures/resized/136-106/22/22859.jpg



(Notice the article calls it the 'third temple', as opposed to the 4th.)

JesusisGod
Dec 27th 2007, 07:11 PM
Hi Shirley.
I'm sure you're right that the "Jewish guy" on the History channel doesn't yet know the true Corner Stone. I was just pointing out that even though there is no need for a stone temple, Jews are planning one.

Your posiiton that there is no scripture to support a stone temple that the anti-Christ will enter might have to be rethought by reason of the assertion that you made concerning certain scriptures not mentioning Israel becoming a nation again.

Many Christians believe the scriptures say that Israel will become a nation and as I pointed out, Israel is a nation today. I understand that lots of believers on this site do not see the Bible teaching a third (or fourth temple), but the fact of the matter is that many Jews in Israel today are serious about constructing one. This is a reality that could play a part in prophecy and I don't think we should completely dismiss it, even though it might not be Gods will. There are many examples of people in the word who were not doing Gods will, but God turned their unfaithfulness into part of His plan.

JesusisGod
Dec 27th 2007, 07:21 PM
Hi Kahtar.

(Notice the article calls it the 'third temple', as opposed to the 4th.)
That's just what I have been seeing. These Jewish people in Israel today are serious about a new stone temple. I think the program I was watching on the History channel was about Jerusalem and how the (so called) "3 great faiths" worship there. They showed the Muslims (Dome of the Rock) and Christians (Church of the Holy Sepulcher), but when they got to the Jews, they went into this plan the Jews have for reconstructing a temple. The hair on my arm stood up.

ShirleyFord
Dec 27th 2007, 08:30 PM
Hi Shirley.
I'm sure you're right that the "Jewish guy" on the History channel doesn't yet know the true Corner Stone. I was just pointing out that even though there is no need for a stone temple, Jews are planning one.

Your posiiton that there is no scripture to support a stone temple that the anti-Christ will enter might have to be rethought by reason of the assertion that you made concerning certain scriptures not mentioning Israel becoming a nation again.

Many Christians believe the scriptures say that Israel will become a nation and as I pointed out, Israel is a nation today. I understand that lots of believers on this site do not see the Bible teaching a third (or fourth temple), but the fact of the matter is that many Jews in Israel today are serious about constructing one. This is a reality that could play a part in prophecy and I don't think we should completely dismiss it, even though it might not be Gods will. There are many examples of people in the word who were not doing Gods will, but God turned their unfaithfulness into part of His plan.

Hi JiG,

According to historical records, some of the Jews have been trying to find a way to build a third temple in Jerusalem since shortly after the second temple was destroyed. My first hand knowledge about the Jews building the third temple was back in the early 1970s. Preachers then said that the Rapture would take place sometime in the latter part of that decade (1977 or 1978, can't remember now) before the rebuilding of the third temple began. But then as the set year for the Rapture to take place neared and the Jews were declaring that work on the building of the third temple would begin very soon, a couple of preachers began preaching that maybe the building of the temple would begin before the Rapture took place and that it was the Lord's will that the Church hasten the time of the Rapture by supporting the Jews with finances so they could go ahead and start building so the Rapture could take place.

My pastor and many others in the surrounding area got so existed and they too began preaching that the Rapture of the Church wouldn't take place until the Jews began rebuilding the 3rd temple. And that the Church was to hasten the time of the Rapture by supporting the Jews so they could get started rebuilding the third temple.

I heard the same thing preached during the 1980s at least 3 different times. By 1988, I didn't get excited anymore and decided to turn to God and ask Him about it and for Him to show me in His word. I finally learned that the only two Scripture these preachers used for a rebuilt 3rd temple was Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4

But Daniel 9:27 doesn't mention a rebuilt 3rd temple. Neither does 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

If the Jews do succeed in rebuilding a stone temple, I can't see where it will be according to Bible prophecy. In order for something to fulfill prophecy from the Bible, I figure that the prophecy has to be written somewhere in the Bible in order for it to be classified, "biblical prophecy". But then that could just be me.


Shirley

JesusisGod
Dec 27th 2007, 09:11 PM
Hi Shirley.
Lots of times people wrongly guess when something is going to happen, or think that something has to happen before something else can come to pass. That doesn't mean everything they believe is wrong. They might only be off on the timing.

You raise a strong argument against the "rebuilt stone temple" theory by saying that preachers rely on Da.9 and 2 Thes.2 for doctrine, but I would like to ask you a question concerning 2 Thes.2 (which you or someone else may have already answered but I've missed.)

2 Thes.2:4 says the man of sin opposes everything that is called a god or worshipped as a god so that he, as god, sits in the temple of God, showing that he is God.

My question is, what temple is he sitting in? Some say the temple is the church, but you and I know the truth and wouldn't worship a man sitting in church, so how would this make him the object of worship.

Codger
Dec 27th 2007, 09:36 PM
Hi JiG,

According to historical records, some of the Jews have been trying to find a way to build a third temple in Jerusalem since shortly after the second temple was destroyed. My first hand knowledge about the Jews building the third temple was back in the early 1970s. Preachers then said that the Rapture would take place sometime in the latter part of that decade (1977 or 1978, can't remember now) before the rebuilding of the third temple began. But then as the set year for the Rapture to take place neared and the Jews were declaring that work on the building of the third temple would begin very soon, a couple of preachers began preaching that maybe the building of the temple would begin before the Rapture took place and that it was the Lord's will that the Church hasten the time of the Rapture by supporting the Jews with finances so they could go ahead and start building so the Rapture could take place.

My pastor and many others in the surrounding area got so existed and they too began preaching that the Rapture of the Church wouldn't take place until the Jews began rebuilding the 3rd temple. And that the Church was to hasten the time of the Rapture by supporting the Jews so they could get started rebuilding the third temple.

I heard the same thing preached during the 1980s at least 3 different times. By 1988, I didn't get excited anymore and decided to turn to God and ask Him about it and for Him to show me in His word. I finally learned that the only two Scripture these preachers used for a rebuilt 3rd temple was Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4

But Daniel 9:27 doesn't mention a rebuilt 3rd temple. Neither does 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

If the Jews do succeed in rebuilding a stone temple, I can't see where it will be according to Bible prophecy. In order for something to fulfill prophecy from the Bible, I figure that the prophecy has to be written somewhere in the Bible in order for it to be classified, "biblical prophecy". But then that could just be me.


Shirley

Hi Shirley,
Us seniors (65) remember how Eschatology has changed over the years - for example: when I was 15 years old back in 1957. There was an evangelist who came to our local AOG Church and really packed them in with sermons on subjects like “the atomic bomb found in the book of Revelation” and “When Israel is invaded by Russia.” It was so sensational and exciting we couldn't hardly wait to get to the service. I'm still waiting for the latter to happen after 50 years.

All Jesus said in Matthew 24 was to happen within one generation of 40 years after the formation of present day Israel. That belief of course ended in 1988 (40 + 1948) So the Dispensational theology had to be changed just like the “return” date setters. So the theology was revised from the founding of Israel in 1948 to the date of the six days war of 1967 with the capture of Jerusalem. (1967 + 40) The theology was updated to 2007. So at the end of this year - in just a few days - it will have to be re-re revised again. I wonder what it will be next?

Someday most of the younger people here will be just like us - looking backwards in time over 50 or 60 years wondering why none of this sensational and exciting "eschatology" we have heard of over the years has never come to pass.

Eschatology should be based on the historical record and not the daily newspaper.

Larry

Merton
Dec 27th 2007, 10:20 PM
Hi Shirley.
Lots of times people wrongly guess when something is going to happen, or think that something has to happen before something else can come to pass. That doesn't mean everything they believe is wrong. They might only be off on the timing.

You raise a strong argument against the "rebuilt stone temple" theory by saying that preachers rely on Da.9 and 2 Thes.2 for doctrine, but I would like to ask you a question concerning 2 Thes.2 (which you or someone else may have already answered but I've missed.)

2 Thes.2:4 says the man of sin opposes everything that is called a god or worshipped as a god so that he, as god, sits in the temple of God, showing that he is God.

My question is, what temple is he sitting in? Some say the temple is the church, but you and I know the truth and wouldn't worship a man sitting in church, so how would this make him the object of worship.




KJV 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Lit, 2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2

The NT is not all about the Jews but all about the Church.

If the man of sin opposes and exalts himself above all objects of worship then he opposes any stone temple in Jerusalem, and he has no time for Mary worship either.

The Temple that the man of sin sits in is the sanctuary of the churches in the world which were set up by the elect Church which is His body. This shows that the man of sin rules in the churches before he turns against them to fulfil Gods will of Rev.17:16 and the only way that the man of sin could rule in the churches is through the churches seeking after a king of his kind and accepting him through the love of self, force, and money. Dan.11.



As Israel the nation was judged because of its apostacies then also will be the churches and the only survivors will be those elect of the churches who obey Christ. (trumpets)

Reading the 7 letters of Rev.ch 2 and 3 gives this information. Look at the last church letter for example.


Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the assembly of Laodicea, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God:
Rev 3:15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I would that you were cold, or hot.
Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because you say, I am rich, and I am made rich, and I have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.

When Israel rejected the gospel then they used Rome and even boasted that they had no King but Caesar, and said "let His blood be on us and upon our children", well it was and it was Romans who accomplished that for them at the hand of God.

A repeat performance will occur, only it is in regard to the churches this time and not the Jews. (trumpets)


Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings; they shall rise, and another shall rise after them. And he shall be different from the first, and he shall humble three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one half time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.

---
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came a little horn which became very great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the bountiful land.
Dan 8:10 And it became great, even to the host of the heavens. And it caused some of the host and of the stars to fall to the ground, and it trampled them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the leader of the host. And the regular sacrifice was taken away by him, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And a host was given with the regular sacrifice because of transgression. And it threw the truth down to the ground, and it worked and prospered.
Merton.

JesusisGod
Dec 27th 2007, 10:27 PM
Hi Codger.
When Jesus said, "...this generation wil by no means pass away till all these things take place", (Mt.24:34) what generation was He referring to?

Jesus said, "...when you see all these things (Mt.24:33)....". All what things?

JesusisGod
Dec 27th 2007, 10:39 PM
Hi Merton.

The NT is not all about the Jews but all about the Church.
So the Book God speaks to us through which was written by Jews that God used doesn't have anything to do with Jews at a most crucial time in the history of the world?

Tell me something Merton, what is the church?

ShirleyFord
Dec 27th 2007, 11:05 PM
2 Thes.2:4 says the man of sin opposes everything that is called a god or worshipped as a god so that he, as god, sits in the temple of God, showing that he is God.

My question is, what temple is he sitting in? Some say the temple is the church, but you and I know the truth and wouldn't worship a man sitting in church, so how would this make him the object of worship.

Hi JiG,

Paul says nothing in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 about the Jews having to build a third temple for the man of sin. Paul is writing to the local Church congregation living in Thessalonica, a Gentile city outside of the nation of Israel. He doesn't mention Jerusalem. Nor does he say anything about unbelieving Jews in Jesus worshipping the man of sin after they build a third stone temple.

The second stone temple was still standing then. And it is referred to only 3 times as the temple of God.

Once before Jesus was born in Bethlehem by Luke when speaking of Zacharias, a priest and the father of John the Baptist before he was conceived:

Luke 1:9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.


Once by Matthew when speaking of Jesus cleansing the temple:
Mt 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,


Once by Matthew when reporting what a false witness of Jesus said:

Mt 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

But Jesus wasn't speaking about the second stone temple but His body as the temple of God.


Ironically, Paul spoke of the second stone temple in Jerusalem 11 times in the book of Acts. But he referred to it as "the temple"; never as "the temple of God". He spoke of "the temple of God" 5 other times in his epistles:

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


So did Paul just this one time in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 call a future rebuilt stone temple "the of God" without any explanation for doing so?

2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


We may think that we have only two options for identifying the temple of God here: (1) a stone temple, (2) the body of the believer. And we choose number 1. since it makes more sense for a person to get inside a stone temple than number 2. another person.

But I believe Jesus reveals a third option in Revelation:

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Jesus is having John to write to 7 local Churches. He reveals the true Church and those in the Church away from God and Satan seated in the midst. The local Church is the temple of God


We find the same situation in the local Thessalonian Church, the temple of God, in 2 Thessalonians 2:4:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Those unbelievers in the local Churches who will claim to be Christians but aren't are the ones who will be deceived.


The true Christians will not be deceived and will not worship the man of sin:

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.



Shirley

David Taylor
Dec 27th 2007, 11:56 PM
Temple Institute Announces: High Priest's Crown is Ready!

by Hillel Fendel

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124443
(IsraelNN.com) The Temple Institute in Jerusalem announces the completion of the Tzitz, the High Priest's headplate - now ready for use in the Holy Temple.

The tzitz is made of pure gold, was fashioned over the course of a more than a year by the craftsmen of the Temple Institute, and is ready to be worn by the High Priest in the rebuilt Holy Temple in Jerusalem.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/pictures/resized/136-106/22/22859.jpg




The High Priest already has a crown.

Hebrews 2:7 "consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Christ_Carrying_the_Cross_1580.jpg

Codger
Dec 28th 2007, 12:24 AM
Hi Codger.
When Jesus said, "...this generation wil by no means pass away till all these things take place", (Mt.24:34) what generation was He referring to?

Jesus said, "...when you see all these things (Mt.24:33)....". All what things?

Considering the often ignored fact that he said he didn't know when he would return - he was talking about the generation of that day. God gave Israel 40 years or one generation to repent before the judgment came in 70AD.

All what things? Everything he prophesied happened except for the second coming, which he himself said was only known by the father. The second coming has been delayed.

Kahtar
Dec 28th 2007, 12:26 AM
The High Priest already has a crown.
:) I agree Dave. But they don't understand that.

David Taylor
Dec 28th 2007, 12:41 AM
Did not Israel know?
"Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Romans 10:18

ShirleyFord
Dec 28th 2007, 01:17 AM
Hi Shirley,
Us seniors (65) remember how Eschatology has changed over the years - for example: when I was 15 years old back in 1957. There was an evangelist who came to our local AOG Church and really packed them in with sermons on subjects like “the atomic bomb found in the book of Revelation” and “When Israel is invaded by Russia.” It was so sensational and exciting we couldn't hardly wait to get to the service. I'm still waiting for the latter to happen after 50 years.



Hi Larry,

Well its good to have another "really old person" here. :pp

You are far ahead of me in your Eschatology since I didn't hear that Israel was the focus of the endtimes until the early 70s. Never heard anything about Israel being a nation again before then. Course I had never heard of any tribs or mills either until 2002.

But since the 1940s, the mark of the beast has changed from the drivers license number to all sorts of things. So has Israel's enemies.

Shirley

Codger
Dec 28th 2007, 03:02 AM
Hi Larry,

Well its good to have another "really old person" here. :pp

You are far ahead of me in your Eschatology since I didn't hear that Israel was the focus of the endtimes until the early 70s. Never heard anything about Israel being a nation again before then. Course I had never heard of any tribs or mills either until 2002.

But since the 1940s, the mark of the beast has changed from the drivers license number to all sorts of things. So has Israel's enemies.

Shirley

Shirley,
You would think that after all of these errors that Christians would stop making projections into the future. I don't think that it is as bad as it once was, but we haven't arrived yet.

Larry

JesusisGod
Dec 28th 2007, 09:16 AM
Hi Codger.

Considering the often ignored fact that he said he didn't know when he would return - he was talking about the generation of that day. God gave Israel 40 years or one generation to repent before the judgment came in 70AD.

All what things? Everything he prophesied happened except for the second coming, which he himself said was only known by the father. The second coming has been delayed.
The problem here is that the 2nd coming is part of what will occur before "this generation" passes away. It hasn't happened. Jesus said the gospel would be preached to all nations before "this generation" passes away. It didn't happen. Jesus said the tribulation of those days would be unlike any from the beginning of the world so that unless they were shortened, nobody would be saved. It didn't happen.

There is a belief that the tribulation Jesus spoke of was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, but that can't be what He meant for the simple reason that He also said His coming would immediately follow the tribulation of those days.

Jesus likened those days not to the destruction of Jerusalem, but of the days of Noah. That is, the destruction of the world. It hasn't happened yet.

jeffweeder
Dec 28th 2007, 09:33 AM
There is a belief that the tribulation Jesus spoke of was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, but that can't be what He meant for the simple reason that He also said His coming would immediately follow the tribulation of those days.


Maybe that was the beginning of the tribulation.
In luke 21 Jesus said that these were the beginnings of the days of vengeance toward the land and this people and would continue until the times of the Gentiles was over for Jerusalem.

I read in rev 7 that those who come out of the GT cannot be numbered.
If we were to define the GT to a single generation, then we should be able to number how many went through it.

Merton
Dec 28th 2007, 10:46 AM
Hi Merton.

So the Book God speaks to us through which was written by Jews that God used doesn't have anything to do with Jews at a most crucial time in the history of the world?

Tell me something Merton, what is the church?


I mean that the Church includes both Jews and Gentiles who believe, and it is the Church which is the Body of Christ , the Bride, and the Jews as a race or religion or whatever they claim to be mean nothing different to any other peoples on the planet, to God, because He looks upon the heart of man and looks for faith in His Son to reward men by and to judge every man according to their works.

Looking at the flesh Jew for anything for the true believer to be guided by, is condemned by the death of Christ and to expect that God would want His children to be guided by the works of the flesh is a denial of Christ, His works of salvation, and of His Father.

Merton.

JesusisGod
Dec 28th 2007, 10:27 PM
Hi jeffweeder.

Maybe that was the beginning of the tribulation.
In luke 21 Jesus said that these were the beginnings of the days of vengeance toward the land and this people and would continue until the times of the Gentiles was over for Jerusalem.

I read in rev 7 that those who come out of the GT cannot be numbered.
If we were to define the GT to a single generation, then we should be able to number how many went through it.
An excellent observation. One I never thought of before and another proof that the time Jesus spoke of isn't limited to the destruction in 70AD.

JesusisGod
Dec 28th 2007, 10:59 PM
Hi David Taylor.

Did not Israel know?
"Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Romans 10:18

1 Tim.1:12-13 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, who was previously a blasphemer and a persecuter and a maltreater, but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly, in unbelief.

1 Co.2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the world to our glory, which none of the princes of this world knew, for had they know, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It wouildn't be difficult to prove that even though the Apostles themselves recognized Jesus as the Messiah while He was with them, these people who knew Him personally had no conception that He was going to die for the sins of the world. After He was executed, they didn't know what to do.

Maybe the Pharisses should have known that Jesus is their Savior. Maybe they should know it today. Alot of damage was done to the Jews by well meaning Christians (?) because of who He died at the hands of. Maybe that's the reason they plan on building a new temple.

JesusisGod
Dec 28th 2007, 11:12 PM
Hi Merton.

I mean that the Church includes both Jews and Gentiles who believe, and it is the Church which is the Body of Christ , the Bride, and the Jews as a race or religion or whatever they claim to be mean nothing different to any other peoples on the planet, to God, because He looks upon the heart of man and looks for faith in His Son to reward men by and to judge every man according to their works.
I agree. Even Abraham was saved as a gentile, not a Jew (Ro.4:10).


Looking at the flesh Jew for anything for the true believer to be guided by, is condemned by the death of Christ and to expect that God would want His children to be guided by the works of the flesh is a denial of Christ, His works of salvation, and of His Father.
I agree, but I think a Jew in Gods eyes is not what people normally think a Jew is. Let me ask you Merton, when do you think the church began?

Francine
Dec 30th 2007, 01:46 AM
The temple will be built during or near the tribulation-when Jesus is dealing with the Jewish people-the time of "Jacob's trouble".

If the Holocaust wasn't Jacob's trouble, what was it? Jacob's annoyance?

Francine
Dec 30th 2007, 01:48 AM
Any day now perhaps the dome of the rock will be gone-one way or another-or the Ark of the Covenant will be found-one way or another though, the temple will be built. And yes, it will be physical.

Scripture says the Ark will not play a part in the end times, until it is seen in heaven at the very end.

Jer.3 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=2817426):[16] And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Merton
Dec 30th 2007, 01:52 AM
Hi Merton.

I agree. Even Abraham was saved as a gentile, not a Jew (Ro.4:10).


I agree, but I think a Jew in Gods eyes is not what people normally think a Jew is. Let me ask you Merton, when do you think the church began?


Candidates to become part of Christs Bride existed from the beginning of men having faith in the atonement, but the Church could only begin upon the death and resurrection of Christ, and in that regard the disciples of Jesus became the Bride of Christ on the day of Pentecost, but they were prepared for it before the event.

Not even Abraham has become a member of the Bride of Christ at this time, but he has been qualified for it to occur at His resurrection as also John the baptist is-- Heb.ch 11.

Mat 11:11 Truly I say to you, There has not arisen among those born of a woman any greater than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is.

This will not be the answer you were expecting but people who ask questions ought to declare their reason for asking them first, or just state what you believe on the matter without a question.


Merton.

David Taylor
Dec 30th 2007, 03:13 AM
If the Holocaust wasn't Jacob's trouble, what was it?

Jeremiah provides the context of 'Jacobs Trouble' as being the time of Israel's 70 year exile in Assyria/Babylon.

Jeremiah 29:1, 10, 14
"Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon; For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive. "

Jeremiah 30:3-4, 7
"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it."

Jeremiah 31:23
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness. And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks."

The 70 year Babylonian Captivity under King Nebechadnezzar was the time of Jacob's Trouble according to Jeremiah.

No other day was ever like it, and they were saved out of it, as Jeremiah prophesied.

JesusisGod
Dec 30th 2007, 11:42 AM
Hi Merton.

This will not be the answer you were expecting but people who ask questions ought to declare their reason for asking them first, or just state what you believe on the matter without a question.
I was only expecting your answer. I ask questions to see where people are coming from, why they believe the Bible says what it says. I'm not anywhere near perfect in my understanding of Gods word. I can be taught by others, but what people teach me has to make sense in my mind.

I agree with you that the church will include OT believers. I think where we might differ is when they fit in. I hear the NT saying that gentiles are part of Gods family, which already existed before gentiles were adopted through Jesus. It's difficult for me to separate the "church" from the "Jews", because the church is Jewish in nature. I suspect that Israel is the Kingdom of God, which NT believers have been made a part of.

But what does any of this have to do with a stone temple? Well, there is scripture to support the idea that unbelieving Jews enmass will recognize Jesus as their Messiah near the end of the world. How does this happen? I don't know. Maybe you're right. Maybe the anti-Christ will take over the church and the Jews will turn to Jesus. Or maybe the Jews will rebuild a temple of stone that the anti-Christ takes over and they will see that Jesus is the real Messiah.

ShirleyFord
Dec 30th 2007, 03:33 PM
But what does any of this have to do with a stone temple? Well, there is scripture to support the idea that unbelieving Jews enmass will recognize Jesus as their Messiah near the end of the world. How does this happen? I don't know. Maybe you're right. Maybe the anti-Christ will take over the church and the Jews will turn to Jesus. Or maybe the Jews will rebuild a temple of stone that the anti-Christ takes over and they will see that Jesus is the real Messiah.

Hi JiG,

You just caused me to remember my many years of being taught that the Jews will accept antichrist as their promised Messiah when he allows them to rebuild the third stone temple. But after 3 1/2 years when antichrist goes into the holy of holies of the temple and sits down on his throne on top of the mercy seat covering the ark of the covenant, then the Jews will realize that antichrist is not the Messiah after all. And then believe that Jesus was indeed their promised Messiah.

My question those many years that no one seemed to have an answer for is this:

Why would the antichrist going into the holy of holies and sitting down on his throne there cause the Jews to know that he was not the promised Messiah? And this will convince them that Jesus is the Messiah after all? But when Jesus comes on the scene and builds the fourth temple, as I was taught, and likewise places His throne on top of the mercy seat inside the holy of holies and reigns over His kingdom from there, the Jews don't have a problem with that.

I never could find any Scripture for any of this view or that would answer my questions. I sure would appreciate it if you could post any Scriptures that you have found that would shed light on this and clear it up for me.

Thanks. :)


Shirley

quiet dove
Dec 30th 2007, 04:43 PM
Why would the antichrist going into the holy of holies and sitting down on his throne there cause the Jews to know that he was not the promised Messiah? And this will convince them that Jesus is the Messiah after all? But when Jesus comes on the scene and builds the fourth temple, as I was taught, and likewise places His throne on top of the mercy seat inside the holy of holies and reigns over His kingdom from there, the Jews don't have a problem with that.

I never could find any Scripture for any of this view or that would answer my questions. I sure would appreciate it if you could post any Scriptures that you have found that would shed light on this and clear it up for me.

Thanks. :)
Shirley

I used to think that too....but

From what I have read, as far as what the Jews expect their Messiah to be, is that he is not deity, the Son of God. But he is a mere man who will accomplish or fit in a certain description or accomplish certain things. Many who could be the Messiah have been or can be born but then they must meet all the other requirements (whatever they are?) to actually be the Messiah. But deity isnt one of them and I think that is one reason they rejected Jesus, His claim to be the Son of God and God, His claim of being God the Son.

I believe the logic behind the rejection of the AC as the Messiah is his claim of being God. His claim of being Deity blows them out with him and that would be based on who and what the Jews expect the Messiah to be.

This is some info I found, and again, I am no expert on this but this article was interesting.
http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

JesusisGod
Dec 30th 2007, 06:05 PM
Hi Shirley.

Why would the antichrist going into the holy of holies and sitting down on his throne there cause the Jews to know that he was not the promised Messiah?
I think because the Jews look at the Messiah as as a deliverer King, not God. It seems one of the problems the Pharisees had with Jesus was that He claimed to be the Son of God. They considered this blasphemy.


And this will convince them that Jesus is the Messiah after all?
I don't know, but it would surely make them rethink what they did believe. I think it's possible. I could see a situation where the anti-Christ comes to power and everyone except the Christians honor him. Of course, this will mean untold persecution for Christians and the world, including the Jews, will be watching it, but very few will care. I think it's possible that wickedness will be so bad that the world will be happy to get rid of the "close minded" Christians and since the anti-Christ will by then have been loved by them for a few yews, he might be bold enough to take the next step and proclaim himself to be God. I think this could be where the Jews draw the line. Then we would have a situation where Jews also get persecuted along with the Christians.


But when Jesus comes on the scene and builds the fourth temple, as I was taught, and likewise places His throne on top of the mercy seat inside the holy of holies and reigns over His kingdom from there, the Jews don't have a problem with that.
As far as I can tell in the very limited view I now hold, when Jesus shows up, there isn't going to be a whole lot of doubt about who He is. He will slay the beast and his armies.


I never could find any Scripture for any of this view or that would answer my questions. I sure would appreciate it if you could post any Scriptures that you have found that would shed light on this and clear it up for me.
I think part of this idea comes from Ro.11. Israel was partially blinded to the truth for our sake.

"...until the fulness of the gentiles comes in." (vs.25)

When the gentiles reach a certain number, the Jews will no longer be blind "in part." The implication is that the nation of Israel as a whole will see the truth. How does this happen? I don't know, but it is possible that the fulness of the gentiles coming in is helped along by the anti-Christ slaughtering us.

This would fit in with a stone temple in 2 Thes.2, but then it would also fit in with the church being the temple, although that would mean the Christians and Jews would be slaughtered together from the beginning of his appearance.

There is something strange about 2 Thes.2. We have;
a) the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering to Him. (vs.1)

Then Paul says the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering to Him won't happen until;
b) an apostasy occurs first and the anti-Christ is revealed. (vs.3)

The anti-Christ sits in the temple as God. (vs.4)

Then Paul says,

Now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. (vs.6)

What did Paul just tell the Thessalonians is withholding the identity of the man of sin? The only thing in the text I can see is "a falling away first."

Look at vs.7.

The mystery of iniquity is already working, but is being restrained.

Why does Paul mention the mystery of iniquity after he tells the Thessalonians that they now know what withholds? Because the mystery of iniquity unrestrained is the "falling away first", which leads to the beast calling himself God. In other words, what restrains the identity of the man of sin is a point in time where truth is abandoned.

The question is, what temple is this person going to enter? I don't know, but if it all centers around the church, why would the world worship him? If this persons plan is to dominate the church, why would the world even care?