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Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 03:56 PM
A popular phrase these days is "God hates the sin, not the sinner" (or some variation of that).

However, that seems to contradict what Scripture says.

Psalm 11:5 says this:

The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.


How do we reconcile the notion that God loves the sinner with this verse?

karenoka27
Dec 17th 2007, 04:01 PM
John 3:16-"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

He did this while we were yet sinners:

Romans 5:8-"But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

God hates sin. Because of that sin, He sent His Son to die for the sinner. Jesus Christ is the Only One or Way back to the Father because we are separated from Him because of our sin.

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 04:03 PM
One of the paradoxes of scripture is it not? He loves the world. But then there are several verses where God is said to hate certain people. I think when we take scripture in the whole, we understand he hates what's in the soul of people, hate's what they do, but loves the spirit and wants to save it.

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 04:07 PM
John 3:16-"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Is it not possible for God to love the world and still hate the wicked person?

That verse says only those who believe will have everlasting life.




He did this while we were yet sinners:

Romans 5:8-"But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."


Who is the US being spoken of?



God hates sin. Because of that sin, He sent His Son to die for the sinner. Jesus Christ is the Only One or Way back to the Father because we are separated from Him because of our sin.

That is true. But how do you reconcile all you have written in this post with Psalm 11:5?

9Marksfan
Dec 17th 2007, 04:07 PM
One of the paradoxes of scripture is it not? He loves the world. But then there are several verses where God is said to hate certain people. I think when we take scripture in the whole, we understand he hates what's in the soul of people, hate's what they do, but loves the spirit and wants to save it.

I agree it's an apparent paradox - as one great theologian put it "he loved us even when He hated us".

The way I see it is that God in His holiness and justice hates us - but in His grace and mercy loves us - and mercy triumphs over judgement!

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 04:08 PM
One of the paradoxes of scripture is it not? He loves the world. But then there are several verses where God is said to hate certain people. I think when we take scripture in the whole, we understand he hates what's in the soul of people, hate's what they do, but loves the spirit and wants to save it.

Can you show some Scripture where God separates soul/spirit as being something He loves or hates apart from the other?

Theophilus
Dec 17th 2007, 04:11 PM
Scripturally, when God and hate appear in the same passage, it is usually a description of how God feels toward a particular act...often, the practice of idolatry, for example.

What is hate, by the way? Merriam-Webster defines it thusly:

Noun

1 a: intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b: extreme dislike or antipathy

Verb

1 : to feel extreme enmity toward

2 : to have a strong aversion to : find very distasteful; intransitive verb : to express or feel extreme enmity or active hostility

Now, the old expression "hate the sin, love the sinner" sounds all well and good, and in practice, that's how we should be.

However, we are not God. God is love, 'tis true...but He's also divinely righteous and perfect in every way...and therefore, capable of divine hatred.

In my mind, this ties in with the verse about "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Why do we not repay a wrong by our own hand? Because only God can mete out perfect justice...too often, we want to go beyond perfect justice, and administer some payback.

Same thing with hatred. Look at the noun definition...hatred usually derives from fear, anger, or sense of injury...I'd also add ignorance and bias.

In that whole group, and keeping in mind God's perfection, what would God's hatred derive from? Certainly not fear, ignorance, or bias...those are all human problems.

Anger? Sure...Jesus Himself was often angry at the Pharisees...and He was surely angry with the moneychangers. Nothing wrong with God being angry, then.

Sense of injury? Could be. I know if I'd done everything to preserve and protect a people...and they had turned to idols (Golden Calf ring a bell?), I might feel a sense of injury. (Although anger still sounds like a good bet!)

So, hostility or aversion toward a people from a perfect and divine God...yeah, it sounds like God could evidence hate toward people. His hate is not our hate, though. Our hate is typically based on prejudice, bias, or that sense of injury thing...His is not.

As for the verb...the action of hate, what did it say? to have a strong aversion to : find very distasteful;to express or feel extreme enmity or active hostility Okay, so if we hate someone (and again, usually because of our imperfection and prejudice), our expression of it is often expressed in rage, violence, or overt (and covert) payback activity. We do not turn the other cheek...we react, and not in a loving manner.

And God? Perfect in love, wisdom, justice, righteous...and hatred? God, our divine Creator, who is our Sovereign Lord, whether we choose to recognize Him or not...how does He express hatred? Perfectly divine wrath...executed after countless warnings and opportunities for the objects of wrath to return to a right relationship with Him.

Look at this passage from Hosea 9:10-17 (I'll use the New Living Translation, and I've cross referenced the Hebrew word (sane' שנא )here, and it indeed means hate), where God is talking with Hosea:

The Lord says, "O Israel, when I first found you, it was like finding fresh grapes in the desert! When I saw your ancestors, it was like seeing the first ripe figs of the season! But then they deserted me for Baal-peor, giving themselves to that shameful idol. Soon they became as vile as the god they worshiped. The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered."

[Hosea] O Lord, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.

The Lord says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." My God will reject the people of Israel because they will not listen or obey. They will be wanderers, homeless among the nations.

Sound harsh? Well, maybe, in our "Lowly Jesus meek and mild" mindset of what it means when we think "God is love." But just as Jesus wasn't always meek and mild, the God Who is love can hate...show great anger and aversion...to His creation. He can do that, because He is perfect. Hate for Him does not equate to hate being evil.

For imperfect man, though, hate is usually associated with sin or evil thoughts...and is therefore, something we cannot allow ourselves to be caught up in.

God's ways are not our ways, people...and His thoughts are not our thoughts. He can sinlessly and perfectly hate...something we typically can't do, when talking about fellow human beings.

There is no inconsistency with God being love, yet capable of hatred, if you view God as perfect in every way (and He is).

That may not help, but hopefully, it won't hurt.

JenniferBerry
Dec 17th 2007, 04:12 PM
A popular phrase these days is "God hates the sin, not the sinner" (or some variation of that).

However, that seems to contradict what Scripture says.

Psalm 11:5 says this:

The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.


How do we reconcile the notion that God loves the sinner with this verse?

According to that Scripture God hates the sinner. To borrow a phrase anything else is "religious speak." This does not mean that God doesn't desire them to repent and come to him but while they are in sin God isn't very fond of them because they are at enmity with him.

And thats all I got to say about that.:P

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 04:24 PM
I agree it's an apparent paradox - as one great theologian put it "he loved us even when He hated us".

The way I see it is that God in His holiness and justice hates us - but in His grace and mercy loves us - and mercy triumphs over judgement!

Yet we know that even though God showed us mercy, in His perfect justice He still had to punish sin. God's perfect mercy met with His perfect justice at the Cross of Christ, where God's hot holy wrath was poured out upon His beloved Son as He bore every nasty, shameful sin we ever committed.

What an amazing God. What an amazing Saviour!

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 04:26 PM
Theophilus, my friend, you are one fast typer! Whoa!

Paul Washer said in one of his sermons that because God IS love, He must hate. In our terms, an example would be because we love children, we must hate abortion.

Would you agree with that?

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 04:29 PM
Can you show some Scripture where God separates soul/spirit as being something He loves or hates apart from the other?

Can you show me he says we can't make the distinction? ;)

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 04:30 PM
Can you show me he says we can't make the distinction? ;)

If we are going to come up with ideas and theories, shouldn't they be rooted in Scripture? I just want some Scripture that speaks of what you were saying.

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 04:31 PM
I agree it's an apparent paradox - as one great theologian put it "he loved us even when He hated us".

The way I see it is that God in His holiness and justice hates us - but in His grace and mercy loves us - and mercy triumphs over judgement!

I like your answer. For me, this is one of those things that I just figure I won't understand this side of eternity. That God loves everyone is pretty clear in scripture. But scripture also says he hates some. Must be both.

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 04:33 PM
If we are going to come up with ideas and theories, shouldn't they be rooted in Scripture? I just want some Scripture that speaks of what you were saying.

The problem is, this thread is not really based totally in scripture. For instance, God says he loves everyone, the whole world. Yet, he also states he hates some. It's both. No need to say he doesn't love those that he hates.

Scripture doesn't it explain how he does this. But he does talk about how the soul, and spirit are not the same and are spit by the word of the Lord. The flesh and spirit are not the same either.

Esau, as a type of the flesh, is hated.
Jacob as a type of the spirit, is loved.

Both are found in the loins of the son of promise, Isaac, the one who is born of the promise and is spirit.

Theophilus
Dec 17th 2007, 04:45 PM
Theophilus, my friend, you are one fast typer! Whoa!

Paul Washer said in one of his sermons that because God IS love, He must hate. In our terms, an example would be because we love children, we must hate abortion.

Would you agree with that?

Who am I to argue with Paul Washer? ;)

Anyway, yes, I think I can agree with what you've just stated.

9Marksfan
Dec 17th 2007, 04:47 PM
Yet we know that even though God showed us mercy, in His perfect justice He still had to punish sin. God's perfect mercy met with His perfect justice at the Cross of Christ, where God's hot holy wrath was poured out upon His beloved Son as He bore every nasty, shameful sin we ever committed.

What an amazing God. What an amazing Saviour!

Amen! And that is what we will be praising Him for throughout eternity!
:pp:pp:pp

9Marksfan
Dec 17th 2007, 04:48 PM
I like your answer. For me, this is one of those things that I just figure I won't understand this side of eternity. That God loves everyone is pretty clear in scripture. But scripture also says he hates some. Must be both.

Yep - a real mystery we'll never truly understand until we're in glory!

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 05:28 PM
For instance, God says he loves everyone, the whole world.

Does loving the world as a whole equate to loving every individual person in it?

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 05:53 PM
A popular phrase these days is "God hates the sin, not the sinner" (or some variation of that).

However, that seems to contradict what Scripture says.

Psalm 11:5 says this:

The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.


How do we reconcile the notion that God loves the sinner with this verse?

By the demonstration of the cross. That is the only way to understand that God loves His enemies.

And greater love has no man than that love which was displayed at calvary.

While God hates what the fall effected upon me, personified in my "old man" and brings that "person" to death, God loved me while I was still wicked, His enemy, a child of wrath and demonstrated that love for me by dying in my place, giving me His Spirit and adopting me as a son, creating in me a "new man".

That is how I understand both God's hate and His love, working together to bring about His plan of redeeming creation from the fall.

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 06:01 PM
Does loving the world as a whole equate to loving every individual person in it?

Yep.

1 John 2:1-2

2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU

And as Toolman pointed out, God loves his enemies. Jesus, love those that hated him.

Amazedgrace21
Dec 17th 2007, 06:02 PM
IMHO, that does not seem to contradict itself at all..God loves, welcomes and embraces a repentent sinner so why wouldn't God reject an unrepentent, remorseless sinner? Rebellious and 'hateful' nations and peoples, spirits, etc.? The OT is full of scripture where God is very specific to what extent He hates sin and reject's those who reject Him.

To attempt to understand and recognize the nature of "hating" something from God's perspective, it seems one has to examine how God "loves"..
Everything I understand about the nature of God's love is so different than our use of the word "love", hatred is not the other side of love, it is the absence of it.

Agape love is the form of love God expresses as His standard of love and it speaks to a condition He seeks and finds in the heart, the spiritual condition and state. There are things he derives pleasure from and things that grieve "the Spirit"..

So what God 'hates' and he does needs a deeper understanding of what and how God loves IMHO..God never hated anyone..but He appears to have a deep abiding hatred of certain "things"..things discerned on a spiritual level that are manifested in actions and attititudes manifested in the souls, or perhaps the heart as it is positioned towards the very things that reflect and are the substance of His nature.

We would understand a sinner interms of what we can see and use to determine a criteria to use regarding their behavior..we call those who murder, murderer's..yet God searches beyond what we can discern and sees so much more..

The bible also says that no one can or ever will be able to say they were not given or did have a choice to accept or reject God...that there would be those who would and not because they were "deceived' but because of their own wickedness.

So IMHO, we do not have the right to make such calls about these matters inrespect to"hating any one"..in fact we are commanded to "chose love" , we are also in a continuous process of being refined, matured in learning how to love as God loves..His love is "perfect" as is His righteousness in respect to what, who and how He judges sinners and there sins.

So why wouldn't His hatred of the same things not be reciprocally perfect and just? Scripture speaks to God's wrath and judgement all the time as it speaks to his love being unconditional and His patience infinate in terms of being able and willing to forgive any sinner who turns to Him..but it requires a "change" and a very significant one in terms of how a sinner may seek and and accept this gift of grace.

Scripture tells "us" to hate the sin and not the sinner..no where does scripture say God must "love" the sinner who hates God..God's love is not conditional to the sinner hating or loving Him..because God is the very nature and substance of love..

My best understanding of this is we are specifically commanded to abide by God's choice to direct our energies and choices towards sinners with the same position He took with us and our sin's , as sinners.At no time is God ever under conditions to abide by ignoring unrepentent, sinners or their sins for the sake "of love"..That's not scriptural at all IMHO.

So if He "hates" something... anything it's because He see's something that justly and righteously "earned and deserves" this hatred in respect to being a total defilement and contradiction to His very Nature..That he takes no pleasure in seeing this choice being made by those who do make it , is also consistent..He is always vested in the best interest of others due to His nature nor desires to see the ultimate outcome of the wrong choice for those who reject them.."for their sake"..

I think we forget sometimes that while there are many who are among us who are on a journey that is ahead of them like Paul for instance who will ultimately turn to God..that there is also those who will not and have permanantly rejected God..and have chosen "to hate" God.

It would seem a contradiction of God's very character and nature to not accept their choice, to withhold His love and forgiveness as freely and unconditionally as He accept's those who have chosen "to love" Him by not withholding, His love and His forgiveness unconditionally as well.

Thats why I would define "hate" as the presence of the "absence of love" on the part of the sinner..that it is not God's hatred of them that is the condition of that scripture, but the acknowledgement of their choice towards Him and their position before Him...a righteous and just position based upon His very nature..one we do not have nor should confuse as having, and are under a command to not exercise towards sinners, just the sin issues.


Psalm 11:5 says this:

The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.



The wicked and the product of their violence is the clue here..God is spirit and 'when' He hates what another loves..it would seem reasonable that they have rejected Him and chosen to love what Satan loves and hate what Satan ,'hates'..

If he has tested the "heart", IMHO, there is no contradiction here is how He responds to what He has found. That is not an area that we have the right to make a concern about what His choice determines in respect to a response.It is also an direct warning to not allow ourselves to forget that God tests our righteousness, let us not be found in a similar condition.:hmm:

When we do not abide by God's commandment to love Him first and others next..we have chosen the path of the wicked and we have a heart of violence towards what God loves. We are at war with Him when we chose to embrace what He "hates".God hates sin.

Scruffy Kid
Dec 17th 2007, 06:47 PM
The centerpiece of our thinking about God's love,
God's forgiveness and mercy, and love for sinners,
Is Jesus Christ, and His Cross and Resurrection.

What must be central to our thinking, in this and every matter, is God's full revelation of himself, in the incarnate Word, His only Son Jesus Christ, and therefore in the cross: in Christ's death and resurrection. Just as Toolman has eloquently reminded us, it is the cross of Christ which expresses God's costly love of sinners, reconciling us to Himself, despite our heinous sin, through Jesus, whose "blood washes away all our sin" (I John 1:7)and who is Himself "the propitiation for our sin, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world" (I John 2:2).


Scripture Makes Clear, In Its Central Teachings
God's Costly and Persistent Love for Sinners
Key passages of Scripture which define, rather unequivocally, what God is like make it clear, IMO, that God hates nothing that He has made, and loves all human beings, desiring them to come to the knowledge of the truth, and to be saved. By "key passages" I mean ones that clearly propose to define, or make clear to us the nature of, God's being.

John Certainly these include the passages in I John where we are told "love one another, for love is of God. He who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love" (I John 4:7-8) Again, he says "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (4:8-9) Again "If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us" (4:12); and "God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him" (4:16). This Johanine teaching is set in the context both of the cross, of Christ's atoning sacrifice, and of our living out the life of God, participating by loving others.

Matthew and Luke. Exactly the same conjunction occurs in Matthew, for instance in the sermon on the mount. Jesus there teaches us to love our enemies ("Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" Matt. 5:44) not as an orphaned or arbitrary command, but as our expression of the very life of God: "so that you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust" (5:45). The command to love everyone, even our enemies, is set in the context of God's love for all. We are to love even those who harm us because Jesus wants us to "be perfect" (or wholehearted), in our love for others, "just as your Father in heaven is perfect" (The same teaching is also found in Luke 6.) -- thus letting our "light so shine before people that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in Heaven" (Matt. 5:16).

Other NT Passages Many other passages, and many other strands of biblical teaching bear out this same point. "God is ... patient, not wanting any to perish, but for all to come to repentence." (II Peter). God "commends" or attractively and winsomely shows "his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us", Paul tells us in Romans (5:8); and he writes to Timothy saying "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (I Tim. 1:15). The Pharisees repeatedly criticize Jesus (Jesus is God!) because he is friends with sinners, but Jesus replies, with reassurance for the humble and those who know their wrong, but biting but subtle irony toward the self-righteous, that "they that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Mark 2:17; Matt. 9:13)

Narrative as Teaching in the NT These explicit teachings, however, owe their prominence and force not just to themselves, but to their relation to the fundamental story of salvation. As Slug notes (below), the way Jesus treated notorious sinners, the way in which he emphasized universal human sinfulness, and the fact that his life was fundamentally one of dying for his enemies, us, sinners, whom he forgave from the cross (Luke 23:24) makes the fact of God's forgiveness to sinners -- costly and accomplished because of his love for the people he made despite their fallen and rebellious condition -- the centerpiece of the Christian message, and therefore puts God's love (including His love for sinners) in the center.

OT Passages This is a point borne out in the Tanakh (OT) as well as in the Greek Scriptures (NT): Ezekiel emphasizes that God desires that one on whom judgment is pronounced might turn from his wickedness and live; the book of Jonah (which Jesus referenced as bearing signification of Himself) makes this point central; and the intercession of Abraham, Moses, David, Amos, and others for those who have gone astray, on whom God's wrath is due to fall, further underlines the centrality of God's loving compassion, and desire that all might come within the reach of His saving embrace. (Yet, sadly, some reject that love, place themselves outside God's purposes, and turn away from the redemption, the propitiation that Christ has offered "for our sins, and not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.") It is the very mark of God's holiness that he considers the lowly and redeems the fallen. "Good and upright is the Lord; therefore He will lead sinners in the way" (Ps. 25:8). Thus God's redeemed are called to "teach transgressors your ways; and sinners shall be converted unto you" (Ps. 51:13).


The words about "hate":
The usages of Biblical Narrative and Language

It is within this large Scriptural theological context that we must understand the use of language which uses the word "hatred" or "hate." A main difficulty in understanding the meaning (the rather plain meaning, IMO) of the Scriptures here is a kind of over-concreteness in interpretation, which assigns a fixed meaning to words or verses before look at how Scripture uses language.

For instance, Jesus says that unless one "hates father and mother" (Luke 14:26) one cannot be His disciple; but elsewhere (e.g. Mark 7:10, Matt. 15:5f; Matt 19:19, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20) he tells us to honor father and mother, and shows anger for those who block folk from doing so. This is one of many, many clashing uses of words -- things that appear to be contradictions until one sees that the Scriptures do often speak expecting us to read in a sophisticated way, with attention to context. Thus, famously, Prov. 26:4 and 26:5 give directly conflicting advice about answering fools. This is not because Koheleth (the author, "the preacher", or Solomon) is confused, but because he expects us to know how to understand and handle surface contradictions. The idea, or word "hate" is used in Scripture -- as it is in our daily speech -- not just to refer to real hatred, but to disfavor, or opposition, or choosing against (as Theophilus has in part pointed out). Again, it seems to me that Scripture -- particularly in the OT -- often speaks of hating a person when the real meaning is hating the thing the person is doing, or being angry with a person (often, a person God wants to redeem) for the wrong they are doing.

Thus, it seems to me that the broad Scriptural usage -- which often employs personification, hyperbole, and other figurative ways of speaking -- when it speaks of God "hating" sinners does not necessarily mean that God actually hates a particular person, but is more apt to be speaking in a broad way of God's hatred of sin, and serious disapproval of the ones who are going down the wrong path.

The entire Bible, but particularly the OT, often depicts God as struggling between love and hatred toward those he loves. He uses the mixed emotions of Hosea to convey this. He says in Genesis, before the flood, that he "regrets" or "is sorry" (Gen 6:6) that He made humanity. He resolves to destroy Israel, but "repents" or "relents" (Gen. 6:6-7, Ex. 32:12,14, cf. I Sam 15:11, 35, I Chron. 21:15, Ps. 90:13, 106:45, Jer. 18:8, 10, Jonah 3:9-10, 4:2, Amos 7:3, 6, etc.) -- that is, He changes his mind. Obviously, this cannot be intended as an exact descriptive account of God's mental processes. Apart from the fact that it would in generally be utterly silly to suppose that we understand or follow God's thinking (and Scripture tells us we cannot begin to), clearly it cannot be that God wavers, can't make up his mind, or makes mistakes. Yet it does suggest that things like "hatred" reflect an aspect, a moment (motion) of God's opposition to wrong, that has to be balanced (or counterpoised) against other aspects of God's relationship to human beings. Thus Scripture evidently uses language that is descriptive of our quite different, and much more fallible, mental processes as a way of conveying analogically something about God.

The depth of God's holiness, and thus implacable resistence to sin and depravity, is something conjoined to the depth of God's goodness and love. This is represented in various kinds of dialogues, metaphorical language, contradictions, and puzzling events. The underlying thought is much deepened and clarified in the NT; but the fundamental paradoxical, mysterious quality of God's being and God's love remains. And, again, it is supremely expressed in the mystery of the cross.

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 06:52 PM
Yep.

1 John 2:1-2

2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU



There is a problem there. If "whole world" means every person that ever lived, and Jesus Christ was a propitiation for the sin of every single person who ever lived, then what is left for the day of judgment?

If Jesus bore the sin of every person who ever lived and paid the price for that sin, universalism would have to be true because God is not going to punish the same sin twice.

So either universalism is true or Jesus Christ did not die for every single person (perhaps getting a bit off topic, but it goes back to the whole idea of world = every single person).

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 06:53 PM
Amazedgrace and Scruffy Kid, thanks for you obviously well- thought out posts. I am going to have to come back to them when I have more time!

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 06:55 PM
There is a problem there. If "whole world" means every person that ever lived, and Jesus Christ was a propitiation for the sin of every single person who ever lived, then what is left for the day of judgment?

If Jesus bore the sin of every person who ever lived and paid the price for that sin, universalism would have to be true because Gos is not going to pour out punishment for the same sin twice.

Not fair :P..................

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 06:55 PM
There is a problem there. If "whole world" means every person that ever lived, and Jesus Christ was a propitiation for the sin of every single person who ever lived, then what is left for the day of judgment?

If Jesus bore the sin of every person who ever lived and paid the price for that sin, universalism would have to be true because Gos is not going to pour out punishment for the same sin twice.

No problem. Just because God paid for it, doesn't mean it's accepted. I would rather simply take the bible at it's word than redefine the meaning of whole world. ;)

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 06:57 PM
No problem. Just because God paid for it, doesn't mean it's accepted. I would rather simply take the bible at it's word than redefine the meaning of whole world. ;)

Explain how God can dole out punishment for the same sin twice.

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 07:00 PM
Not fair :P..................

Why do I picture you jumping up and down with your hand raised saying "Ooh ooh.....pick me! Pick me!"

:lol:

I added onto my post after you quoted it for clarification. ;)

Slug1
Dec 17th 2007, 07:05 PM
If we are going to come up with ideas and theories, shouldn't they be rooted in Scripture? I just want some Scripture that speaks of what you were saying.When people have asked me the same question that your OP is about I ask them why Jesus also took the time to hang out with those that were sinners. Or why he kept the crowd held back when they were about to stone that adulterous, how He drew the line and also challenged any person from the crowd "without" sin, to cast the first stone. To say that Jesus hates a sinner... is to say that Jesus hates everyone cause we are ALL sinners.

I can look up all these examples for ya but I figure that you've read them before.

Jesus hates the sin, sin which we can give up to Him and live a repentant life.

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 07:11 PM
Explain how God can dole out punishment for the same sin twice.

Rejecting Jesus doesn't get forgiven. God paid for the sins of the whole world. He said it. I didn't. People still go to hell. It is what it is. They go to hell for rejecting the payment.

God said he paid for the sins of the whole world. I believe him. People still go to hell. If that means he punished the sin twice (thought I don't think it does), then so be it.

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 07:14 PM
Why do I picture you jumping up and down with your hand raised saying "Ooh ooh.....pick me! Pick me!"

:lol:

Yeah.. not much to say :(

I think I can point out one thing though and that is just because the penalty for sin, i.e. death, has been paid for by Jesus Christ does not mean that God does not discipline, punish, judge or chastise sin.

Something to keep in mind when speaking of forgiven sin.

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 07:15 PM
When people have asked me the same question that your OP is about I ask them why Jesus also took the time to hang out with those that were sinners. Or why he kept the crowd held back when they were about to stone that adulterous, how He drew the line and also challenged any person from the crowd "without" sin, to cast the first stone. To say that Jesus hates a sinner... is to say that Jesus hates everyone cause we are ALL sinners.

I can look up all these examples for ya but I figure that you've read them before.

Jesus hates the sin, sin which we can give up to Him and live a repentant life.

Okay, but how do you reconcile that with Psalm 11:5?

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 07:18 PM
Here is one for you WG.

Were you at one time God's enemy, wicked, ungodly, unrepentant, sinner, child of wrath?

If so, did God hate you at that time?

If He did hate you then how do you reconcile His love for you?

If He did not hate you then how do you explain Psalm 11:5?

Slug1
Dec 17th 2007, 07:19 PM
Okay, but how do you reconcile that with Psalm 11:5?I reconcile it with the rest of the New Testament.

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 07:20 PM
God said he paid for the sins of the whole world. I believe him. People still go to hell. If that means he punished the sin twice (thought I don't think it does), then so be it.

Punishing the same sin twice would not be perfect justice would it? If God paid for all sin, why are people cast into hell? If I pay for my son's release from prison, is it contingent on him accepting it? Would not the guard simply release the chains and let my son go if I paid for his release?

Are there not examples in Scripture where world does not mean every single person who ever lived?

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 07:21 PM
I reconcile it with the New Testament.

Are you saying the New Testament trumps the Old? Please clarify.

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 07:22 PM
Punishing the same sin twice would not be perfect justice would it? If God paid for all sin, why are people cast into hell? If I pay for my son's release from prison, is it contingent on him accepting it? Would not the guard simply release the chains and let my son go if I paid for his release?

Are there not examples in Scripture where world does not mean every single person who ever lived?

My Calvinist friend, we can dance around this all you like. But Romans also says he died for the ungodly. Those in hell certainly fit that description too. ;)

VerticalReality
Dec 17th 2007, 07:26 PM
My Calvinist friend, we can dance around this all you like. But Romans also says he died for the ungodly. Those in hell certainly fit that description too. ;)

I may be wrong and something may have changed, but I didn't know Whispering Grace was Calvinist.

When did that happen?

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 07:26 PM
Are there not examples in Scripture where world does not mean every single person who ever lived?

There are examples in scripture where world means the entire cosmos, i.e. every single created thing. Context is the key. John's statements are pretty clear, in context, that he is defining every single person... He even uses the defining "whole world" for emphasis.

Also there are examples in scripture, a veritable multitude, which shows that God loves the wicked.

Slug1
Dec 17th 2007, 07:28 PM
Are you saying the New Testament trumps the Old? Please clarify.Trump isn't a word I'd use... the NT gives us a new standard, a new covenant... I guess is a way to put it... to receive God's Grace and Salvation. Not the old way before Jesus by following laws and rules but instead through belief in and a relationship with Jesus.

So, based on the scripture you brought out in the OP, Psalm 11:5... Why wasn't Jesus the first one to cast that stone at the adulterous. He'd be the ringleader of that riot since He'd be hating her just as much as the rest of the crowd.

Heck, He'd be hating all of us and then why'd His Father send Him in the first place... just to hate us???

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 07:31 PM
Here is one for you WG.

Were you at one time God's enemy, wicked, ungodly, unrepentant, sinner, child of wrath?

If so, did God hate you at that time?

If He did hate you then how do you reconcile His love for you?

If He did not hate you then how do you explain Psalm 11:5?

TM....I'm going to have to think on that one a while.

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 07:31 PM
There are examples in scripture where world means the entire cosmos, i.e. every single created thing. Context is the key. John's statements are pretty clear, in context, that he is defining every single person... He even uses the defining "whole world" for emphasis.

Also there are examples in scripture, a veritable multitude, which shows that God loves the wicked.

You are correct here. He intentionally used "whole" to emphasize what he was saying. And a brief study of the word world will show it is used to mean the cosmos in many situations as well as a smaller sample in other places.

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 07:33 PM
TM....I'm going to have to think on that one a while.

Ok :)

One thing is for sure... if you want to get a lively thread going with lots of participation just mention God hating someone... works every time :lol:

Slug1
Dec 17th 2007, 07:34 PM
Here is one for you WG.

Were you at one time God's enemy, wicked, ungodly, unrepentant, sinner, child of wrath?

If so, did God hate you at that time?

If He did hate you then how do you reconcile His love for you?

If He did not hate you then how do you explain Psalm 11:5?Dude, that is an awesome "I need to sit down with a drink and think about it question(s)".

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 07:41 PM
Part of our problem with scripture is we insist on God being linear in his logic. Such is not always the case because he is outside of time. It is the source of many paradoxes in the word.


Let me ask this question... does God love people that are in hell? Personally, I don't think he does anymore. Once judgment is passed, it is passed. He revealed his love for them, but what's done is done. Like he told Samuel "stop grieving over Saul".

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 07:45 PM
Dude, that is an awesome "I need to sit down with a drink and think about it question(s)".

Thanks :)

I think the Scruffy one has given some excellent food for thought (I'm looking forward to the rest!), that echoes your thoughts here as well, that we understand God's love for the sinner because of the cross.

It is the focal point and should be the FIRST place we look when determining any theology. Christ is the final and ultimate revelation of who God is and what He is like.

While I can understand and agree that God hated my "old man" (the man of sin, in Adam) it is also evident that He loved me in this state and gave Himself for me so that a "new man" could arise.

To me, this goes back to a Law/Gospel hermaneutic, whereas God's Law (His judgement and wrath) leads into His Gospel (His mercy and love). The Law and Gospel work together to bring forth redemption. So God's hate, wrath, judgement are not in opposition to His love, favor/grace and forgiveness but are working hand in hand to accomplish His plan of redemption.

Or as you more succinctly said "I reconcile it with the rest of the New Testament"!

Blah, blah, blah.. man I went on a rant :cool:

Scruffy Kid
Dec 17th 2007, 07:46 PM
Dude, that is an awesome "I need to sit down with a drink and think about it question(s)". I am incredibly schocked! :eek:

Dude, because I respect you, and because of the awesom and important role you play here, I have to tell it to you straight. Alcohol is sin and -- in this case, without equivocation -- God hates sinners! :cry:

Please repent! We want you back in God's grace! :rofl:

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 07:46 PM
Thanks :)

I think the Scruffy one has given some excellent food for thought (I'm looking forward to the rest!), that echoes your thoughts here as well, that we understand God's love for the sinner because of the cross.

It is the focal point and should be the FIRST place we look when determining any theology. Christ is the final and ultimate revelation of who God is and what He is like.

While I can understand and agree that God hated my "old man" (the man of sin, in Adam) it is also evident that He loved me in this state and gave Himself for me so that a "new man" could arise.

To me, this goes back to a Law/Gospel hermaneutic, whereas God's Law (His judgement and wrath) leads into His Gospel (His mercy and love). The Law and Gospel work together to bring forth redemption. So God's hate, wrath, judgement are not in opposition to His love, favor/grace and forgiveness but are working hand in hand to accomplish His plan of redemption.

Or as you more succinctly said "I reconcile it with the rest of the New Testament"!

Blah, blah, blah.. man I went on a rant :cool:

It was a great post TM. I wish I had thought of the one you posted earlier.

Just as Esau and Jacob come from the same loins, yet God hated one and love the other, I think he can love my spirit and hate my flesh.

Slug1
Dec 17th 2007, 07:51 PM
I am incredibly schocked! :eek:

Dude, because I respect you, and because of the awesom and important role you play here, I have to tell it to you straight. Alcohol is sin and -- in this case, without equivocation -- God hates sinners! :cry:

Please repent! We want you back in God's grace! :rofl:Truth be told, when I first wrote this I said beer, then edited it to drink so I'd not derail the thread :rolleyes: :lol:

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 08:03 PM
It was a great post TM. I wish I had thought of the one you posted earlier.

Just as Esau and Jacob come from the same loins, yet God hated one and love the other, I think he can love my spirit and hate my flesh.

Thanks Mark.. and just to clarify for those reading along, when we say "hates my flesh" we don't mean our physical body (that would be gnostic) but that "part" of us that resulted from the fall and is contrary to God. Sometimes called the sin nature, the "old man", the "old nature", etc.

You would agree with that wouldn't you Mark?

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2007, 08:05 PM
Thanks Mark.. and just to clarify for those reading along, when we say "hates my flesh" we don't mean our physical body (that would be gnostic) but that "part" of us that resulted from the fall and is contrary to God. Sometimes called the sin nature, the "old man", the "old nature", etc.

You would agree with that wouldn't you Mark?

Yea. Thanks for the clarification. Jesus had flesh but God didn't hate it. I mean that fallen part that you refer to.

Thanks for pointing that out.

VerticalReality
Dec 17th 2007, 08:20 PM
Thanks Mark.. and just to clarify for those reading along, when we say "hates my flesh" we don't mean our physical body (that would be gnostic) but that "part" of us that resulted from the fall and is contrary to God. Sometimes called the sin nature, the "old man", the "old nature", etc.

You would agree with that wouldn't you Mark?

Or as Scripture also refers . . . carnal, worldly, etc.

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 08:31 PM
Or as Scripture also refers . . . carnal, worldly, etc.

And this is where I think we can reconcile Psalm 11:5.

For God personifies this "person" (i.e. the wicked, carnal, wordly) in calling him the "old man":

Romans 6:6 - Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ephesians 4:22 - That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Colossians 3:9 - Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Did God hate that guy? Yeah, I would say He did. That "guy" was not part of His good creation but was a result of the fall.

But, while that "old man" was me, there was also a sense in that he was not. I am part of God's good creation and that part of me which needed to be redeemed God loves and proved it by dying for me while I was still in the "old man".

That is how I see it anyhoo.

SemperReformanda
Dec 17th 2007, 08:34 PM
I am incredibly schocked! :eek:

Dude, because I respect you, and because of the awesom and important role you play here, I have to tell it to you straight. Alcohol is sin and -- in this case, without equivocation -- God hates sinners! :cry:

Please repent! We want you back in God's grace! :rofl:
Scruffy, you should use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and illnesses.


Interesting thread.

SemperReformanda
Dec 17th 2007, 08:36 PM
And this is where I think we can reconcile Psalm 11:5.

For God personifies this "person" (i.e. the wicked, carnal, wordly) in calling him the "old man":

Romans 6:6 - Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ephesians 4:22 - That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Colossians 3:9 - Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Did God hate that guy? Yeah, I would say He did. That "guy" was not part of His good creation but was a result of the fall.

But, while that "old man" was me, there was also a sense in that he was not. I am part of God's good creation and that part of me which needed to be redeemed God loves and proved it by dying for me while I was still in the "old man".

That is how I see it anyhoo.
Tying this to an earlier point, would it be fair to say that God no longer hates anybody, considering all men everywhere have had their old men crucified, their flesh nailed to the cross with Jesus?

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2007, 08:51 PM
So then.....does God hate sinners or not? :P

Slug1
Dec 17th 2007, 09:00 PM
So then.....does God hate sinners or not? :P
:lol:

You should ask it this way... Does God hate ME cause I'm a sinner?

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 09:03 PM
Tying this to an earlier point, would it be fair to say that God no longer hates anybody, considering all men everywhere have had their old men crucified, their flesh nailed to the cross with Jesus?

IMO it depends on what perspective you are speaking of.

Our perspective, bound by time and within time, or God's perspective unbound and not constrained by time. Scripture speaks from both perspectives and tenses.

From within time I would say that a person's "old man" is not crucified until faith has been brought forth in the heart. That is my understanding.

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 09:04 PM
So then.....does God hate sinners or not? :P

Go back to post #33 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1474230&postcount=33) and answer that one and maybe we can find out :D

Amazedgrace21
Dec 17th 2007, 09:05 PM
Excellent post SK..loved it!

There seems to be a reliable statement to try to reconcile if and what God "hates", for God’s declarations of hatred for any group or individual are accompanied by the necessary condition of wickedness.


In commanding His people to obey Him, God declares his utter hatred for those whom were driven out of Canaan; He “abhorred them.” (Leviticus 20:23, NKJV) We also find in the OT how God will respond if His people disobey Him:
“And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you.” (Leviticus 26:27-30, NKJV)



But this is not the whole of scripture either..




Perhaps the best way to approach a better understanding might be to pursue of how God expresses love towards those He 'hates'?



the Psalmist David declares it, “The Lord is good to all.” (Psalm 145:9)



This disposition of kindness is seen in God’s desire for the wicked to repent. To a nation that would recognize the condemnation brought by sin, God said “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” (Ezekiel 33:11)



God is clear in Isaiah 55:7, “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return to the Lord, and He will have compassion on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. (NKJV)



Before answering the question of how God expresses His love towards those He "hates", you might consider Ezekiel 18:32, which says, “’I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,’ declares the Lord God. ‘Therefore, repent and live.’”



There is a sense in which God desires men to be saved, and there is also a sense in which God desires that the ungodly be punished.So IMHO, this a resolution that is provided on the cross with coming into a better view of God's love being expressed towards that which "he Hates".



Christ remedied the issue of the sin that seperates ALL from God..but once again the "wicked" are those who reject Christ and do not "believe in Him"..John states that the believer is someone who loves. Failure to love is to oppose God’s very nature.



I John 4:8 says, “He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” (NKJV) The differentiation is made not in terms of whether or not Jesus came with the purpose of saving the world, but rather in terms of whether or not those in the world believe. The wicked reject God's grace and love, "they" are ones who hate , not God..Christ did indeed love them and died for any one who choses to not perish but to have everlasting life.



Those who will believe will not be condemned. while those who do not believe will surely be condemned,



Christ’s incarnation was no vengeful appearance. His coming was the great expression of God’s love for all mankind.:)



John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”



The cross tangibly reveals God's perspective of his love for all sinners who chose Him..it reveals God's infinate sorrow for those who do not..yet it also makes the hatred expressed by God for those who reject Him come into clearer perspective when it comes to the "wickedness" of sinners who do so IMHO.



It "broke me" when I saw myself from Gods perspective and realized there was absolutely no reason at all for Him to chose to forgive me, much less desire to love me..I "hated myself" to the core.



God's righteousness and right to hate me was indisputibly His to have against me..that He chose to forgive me in spite of this is what never ceases to amaze me or that this much we have to be grateful for that Christ "offers" the world and any sinner who is willing to surrender their "wickedness" and accept God's gift of Love in Christ.:hug:

Scruffy Kid
Dec 17th 2007, 09:08 PM
Scruffy, you should use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and illnesses. But I've been trying not to whine, because I thought others couldn't stomach it! :lol:

Toolman
Dec 17th 2007, 09:13 PM
In commanding His people to obey Him, God declares his utter hatred for those whom were driven out of Canaan; He “abhorred them.” (Leviticus 20:23, NKJV) We also find in the OT how God will respond if His people disobey Him:
“And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you.” (Leviticus 26:27-30, NKJV)



But this is not the whole of scripture either..

I'm going to have to piggy back on that with a little something also:

Ezekiel 16:46-52 - “Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters. You did not walk in their ways nor act according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you became more corrupt than they in all your ways.
“As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.
“Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done. You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs;

Pretty clear.

Now, how does God answer Israel about their iniquity?

Ezekiel 16:60-63 - “Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord GOD.’”

It is a CONSTANT theme throughout scripture that God's Law brings the condemnation of sin and that His everlasting covenant of Grace brings redemption from the condemnation that could not be escaped by the Law.

God forgives sin because of the atonement He has provided and He brings men to that atonement (Christ) by showing them their sin and judging it.

Amazedgrace21
Dec 17th 2007, 11:10 PM
Thank you for sharing those other verses Toolman..I agree with this 100%


It is a CONSTANT theme throughout scripture that God's Law brings the condemnation of sin and that His everlasting covenant of Grace brings redemption from the condemnation that could not be escaped by the Law.


What concerns me here is why it appears to be "problematic" that there is not a single case in the book of Acts where anyone preaching the gospel told an unsaved audience that God loved them.

Rather, the biblical preachers warned their audiences that God did not approve of them, that they were in danger, and that they needed to make dramatic changes in their lives. Had they only told their audiences that God loved them and all they need to do was "accept Christ as Savior" (as do so many modern ministers), they may have misled them into thinking that God approved of them, that they were in no danger, were not storing up wrath for themselves, and had no need to repent.

This is of vital importance, because salvation cannot occur without repentance. Jesus told His apostles to "preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Luke 24:47).So this IMHO also requires reconciling the fact that the OT does indeed distinguish those who are under condemnation of the Law, the ones who have not accepted the attonement of Christ..these 'sinner's' are perhaps confusing that their value before God is proven by Christ's death on the cross..and that we are of inestimatable value before God..before Christ,,above all all else..

Paul, however, stood amazed, not at how the cross proved the alleged value of a race of rebels, but how it displayed God's amazing merciful love, because Jesus wasn't dying for good people, but for ungodly sinners (see Romans 5:6-10). His death saved us, not from underestimating our true worth, but from God's righteous wrath that we all fully deserve(see Romans 5:6-10). Apart from God's holy hatred of sinners, His love for them is essentially meaningless.

The unsaved inside and outside the church are under a huge delusion as they mistake God's mercy for His approval. They will be shocked at their judgment, just like the goats Jesus described in Matthew 25:31-46. They don't understand that God is very kind to His enemies, so they imagine that they are at peace with Him.

Scriptures declare that certain people—not just what those people do—are an abomination to God.See, for example, Deut. 22:5, 16; Lev. 26:29-30; Ps. 5:5-6; Prov. 3:32, 11:20, 16:5, 17:15. Beyond that, there are many other expressions of God's hatred of certain people in Scripture.

For example, when we read, "the Lord did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath with which His anger burned against Judah" (2 Kin. 23:26), we don't get the impression that we are reading about God's love for sinners.

We cannot separate a person from what he does. What a person does reveals his character—who he is. So if God disapproves of sin He of course must disapprove of sinners. God is so pure that His disapproval is very strong, and the word hate describes it well. To separate the sin from the sinner by saying "God loves the sinner but hates the sin" is potentially misleading

God’s approving love is certainly conditional. And even His merciful love is conditioned upon a person being physically alive. After death, God’s merciful love ends, so it must be conditional, being temporary.While merciful love is the most praiseworthy love to give, approving love is the most praiseworthy love to gain.

We should desire God’s approving love much more than His merciful love. Moreover, the fact that approving love is the only kind of love that the Father has ever had for Jesus elevates it to its rightful place of respect.

The apostle Paul warns against "strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men" (1 Tim. 6:4-5). He characterizes such persons who engage in these godless acts as "depraved in mind and deprived of Truth. IMHO, the severity of these responses to such behavior in the flesh sure suggests the problem is not merely 'skin deep' when it comes to the sins of the flesh.

A great many of the "works of the flesh" have to do with such godless attitudes and actions. "Enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions" (Gal. 5:20) God's love is merciful when it comes to the sinner on this side of the grave..but His response towards the believer opposed to the unbeliever has a huge distinction based upon their position in Christ. This is just as relevent now as it has always been IMHO:hmm:

Does not God who also shows the sinners their sin (which He hates) also show those who are dead in their sin why they are "dead to Him" if they do not accept the atonement He provided for them and why He is judging 'them'? Hell is not a place where God sends any one he "has ever loved' or has loved Him. IMHO.

Just personal reflections here on my part..nor should be taken any other way.:hmm: I am still learning myself.

Toolman
Dec 18th 2007, 01:26 AM
What concerns me here is why it appears to be "problematic" that there is not a single case in the book of Acts where anyone preaching the gospel told an unsaved audience that God loved them.

Rather, the biblical preachers warned their audiences that God did not approve of them, that they were in danger, and that they needed to make dramatic changes in their lives. Had they only told their audiences that God loved them and all they need to do was "accept Christ as Savior" (as do so many modern ministers), they may have misled them into thinking that God approved of them, that they were in no danger, were not storing up wrath for themselves, and had no need to repent.

Completely agree that the Law of God is of vital importance to drive the sinner to Christ, because the Law reveals the depth of our sinfulness and our need for salvation.

However I believe that, of course, the Gospel also must be preached as the answer to the Law. Christ died for our sins according to the scripture and was raised on the 3rd day. It is the kindness of God that finally results in repentance (Romans 2:4). Without the full preaching of the Law AND the Gospel we fall short of presenting biblical salvation.


This is of vital importance, because salvation cannot occur without repentance. Jesus told His apostles to "preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Luke 24:47).So this IMHO also requires reconciling the fact that the OT does indeed distinguish those who are under condemnation of the Law, the ones who have not accepted the attonement of Christ..these 'sinner's' are perhaps confusing that their value before God is proven by Christ's death on the cross..and that we are of inestimatable value before God..before Christ,,above all all else..

Paul, however, stood amazed, not at how the cross proved the alleged value of a race of rebels, but how it displayed God's amazing merciful love, because Jesus wasn't dying for good people, but for ungodly sinners (see Romans 5:6-10). His death saved us, not from underestimating our true worth, but from God's righteous wrath that we all fully deserve(see Romans 5:6-10). Apart from God's holy hatred of sinners, His love for them is essentially meaningless.

Yes, again the Law and Gospel working hand in hand.


Scriptures declare that certain people—not just what those people do—are an abomination to God.See, for example, Deut. 22:5, 16; Lev. 26:29-30; Ps. 5:5-6; Prov. 3:32, 11:20, 16:5, 17:15. Beyond that, there are many other expressions of God's hatred of certain people in Scripture.

We, before our new birth, could count ourselves in that group.


For example, when we read, "the Lord did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath with which His anger burned against Judah" (2 Kin. 23:26), we don't get the impression that we are reading about God's love for sinners.

Yes, the Gospel without the Law is not how God has revealed Himself.


We cannot separate a person from what he does. What a person does reveals his character—who he is. So if God disapproves of sin He of course must disapprove of sinners. God is so pure that His disapproval is very strong, and the word hate describes it well. To separate the sin from the sinner by saying "God loves the sinner but hates the sin" is potentially misleading

Agreed. But stating that God hates sinners can also be misleading.
We need to be careful with our words and how we present things.


God’s approving love is certainly conditional. And even His merciful love is conditioned upon a person being physically alive. After death, God’s merciful love ends, so it must be conditional, being temporary.While merciful love is the most praiseworthy love to give, approving love is the most praiseworthy love to gain.

This is where we will disagree. If God is love then it is absolutely impossible for Him to do anything that is unloving or to be unloving towards a person.

His attributes are immutable. He cannot be unholy. He cannot be unjust. He cannot be unloving.

Even His Law, which reveals His wrath and our sin, is given in love, to drive the sinner to Christ.


We should desire God’s approving love much more than His merciful love. Moreover, the fact that approving love is the only kind of love that the Father has ever had for Jesus elevates it to its rightful place of respect.

I have both His approving love and His merciful love because of Jesus Christ alone and not because of anything I have done or will do. My righteousness (acceptance by God) is based solely on the atoning work of Jesus Christ alone.


The apostle Paul warns against "strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men" (1 Tim. 6:4-5). He characterizes such persons who engage in these godless acts as "depraved in mind and deprived of Truth. IMHO, the severity of these responses to such behavior in the flesh sure suggests the problem is not merely 'skin deep' when it comes to the sins of the flesh.

A great many of the "works of the flesh" have to do with such godless attitudes and actions. "Enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions" (Gal. 5:20) God's love is merciful when it comes to the sinner on this side of the grave..but His response towards the believer opposed to the unbeliever has a huge distinction based upon their position in Christ. This is just as relevent now as it has always been IMHO:hmm:

Sorry, you lost me a bit in that one. I'm not sure what your point is.


Does not God who also shows the sinners their sin (which He hates) also show those who are dead in their sin why they are "dead to Him" if they do not accept the atonement He provided for them and why He is judging 'them'? Hell is not a place where God sends any one he "has ever loved' or has loved Him. IMHO.

See above regarding God being love.


Just personal reflections here on my part..nor should be taken any other way.:hmm: I am still learning myself.

Good thoughts and thanks for discussing. I appreciate your input on your understandings of scripture.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 01:31 AM
His attributes are immutable. He cannot be unholy. He cannot be unjust. He cannot be unloving.

What did you think of the explanation that because God IS love, He must therefore hate that which is evil. Is hate necessarily unloving?

I am assuming you are equating hatred with being unloving, so correct me if I am wrong.

Toolman
Dec 18th 2007, 01:42 AM
What did you think of the explanation that because God IS love, He must therefore hate that which is evil. Is hate necessarily unloving?

I am assuming you are equating hatred with being unloving, so correct me if I am wrong.

No, I don't think hate is neccessarily unloving but then we must define hate very carefully and not like we are accustomed to defining it in english.

Whatever God's hate is, it emulates from a being who IS love.

Most evangelicals see God's justice and God's love as in opposition to one another and create a dichotomy and duality within God.

I personally see these attributes working in harmony and not in opposition to one another to bring about God's plan of redemption.

Therefore God's Law (His wrath, hatred, judgement, etc. against sin/sinners) and the Gospel (His grace, mercy, forgiveness, etc. towards sinners) work together to redeem people from sin because God is love, just and holy.

Amazedgrace21
Dec 18th 2007, 02:31 AM
This is where we will disagree. If God is love then it is absolutely impossible for Him to do anything that is unloving or to be unloving towards a person.

His attributes are immutable. He cannot be unholy. He cannot be unjust. He cannot be unloving.

Even His Law, which reveals His wrath and our sin, is given in love, to drive the sinner to Christ.


I hear you Toolman, and I do agree that God is indeed the "love" in love..but I am perhaps also inclined to say while this is one immutable attribute that God is indeed..God is so many other things as well and He is also that which is truth, which is good and righteous , God is above all else also very Holy..

So perhaps the better way to express this point is that nothing God does is unloving, or unjust..so reciprocally nothing that can not be a part of God, is 'apart' from God so if God expresses anger, judges, uses "tough love" or even expresses hatred ( as in contempt, or to despise) there is no "evil or sinfulness" in God at all..or in His response to those to whom He directs any of these responses to.

By merciful love, what I mean is simply God sends the rain "that is good" and it falls upon both the saved and unsaved. What I mean by God's approving love is that He fully forgives accepts those who have submited, confessed, repented of their sin because Christs sacrifice atoned for that which kept them apart from Him. His immutable Holiness demands no less, no other sacrifice is suitable.

His loving nature does not exclude anyone from being extended this grace, but at the same time His Holy nature can not coexist with anyone or anything that does not accept or abide in it because of this sin.

Again, if God is love..this is an immutable part of His nature..the absence of love is the presence of everything else and that which can not be 'a part' of God..is apart from Him..so perhaps Righteous and Holy hatred is that which "hates" this seperation and what is substituted for it where.

It seems to me if Satan's worst fault was His pride,it was so because he loved 'self' more than God and above God. An unforgiven sinner who openly rejects God has indeed failed to uphold the primary commandment to love God, first and foremost and others, next..they have not "died to 'self'..they are lovers of self..they worship a 'false God'..called 'self'..this is despicable and contemptable and certainly not sinful or unrighteous to hate..this is the heart and substance of evil, iniquity, wickedness and that which God "hates" and most certainly condems is it not?

Absent Christ, nothing seperates the sin from the sinner; absent Christ no sinner can come before a Holy and Righteous God in their sin..absent coming to Christ, no one can come before the Father.

IMHO, I don't think we we can grasp the depth and scope of Gods love, holiness or grace until we grasp His hatred of sin and come into full agreement with Him in this "hatred" of sin and the one who hates God..God's love is "conditional" in this sense..he can not "love" sin and He can do nothing less than "hate that which is unholy IMHO. :confused

Toolman
Dec 18th 2007, 02:48 AM
I hear you Toolman, and I do agree that God is indeed the "love" in love..but I am perhaps also inclined to say while this is one immutable attribute that God is indeed..God is so many other things as well and He is also that which is truth, which is good and righteous , God is above all else also very Holy..

So perhaps the better way to express this point is that nothing God does is unloving, or unjust..so reciprocally nothing that can not be a part of God, is 'apart' from God so if God expresses anger, judges, uses "tough love" or even expresses hatred ( as in contempt, or to despise) there is no "evil or sinfulness" in God at all..or in His response to those to whom He directs any of these responses to.

By merciful love, what I mean is simply God sends the rain "that is good" and it falls upon both the saved and unsaved. What I mean by God's approving love is that He fully forgives accepts those who have submited, confessed, repented of their sin because Christs sacrifice atoned for that which kept them apart from Him. His immutable Holiness demands no less, no other sacrifice is suitable.

His loving nature does not exclude anyone from being extended this grace, but at the same time His Holy nature can not coexist with anyone or anything that does not accept or abide in it because of this sin.

Again, if God is love..this is an immutable part of His nature..the absence of love is the presence of everything else and that which can not be 'a part' of God..is apart from Him..so perhaps Righteous and Holy hatred is that which "hates" this seperation and what is substituted for it where.

It seems to me if Satan's worst fault was His pride,it was so because he loved 'self' more than God and above God. An unforgiven sinner who openly rejects God has indeed failed to uphold the primary commandment to love God, first and foremost and others, next..they have not "died to 'self'..they are lovers of self..they worship a 'false God'..called 'self'..this is despicable and contemptable and certainly not sinful or unrighteous to hate..this is the heart and substance of evil, iniquity, wickedness and that which God "hates" and most certainly condems is it not?

Absent Christ, nothing seperates the sin from the sinner; absent Christ no sinner can come before a Holy and Righteous God in their sin..absent coming to Christ, no one can come before the Father.

Amazedgrace21,

I can agree with much of what you state above and wholeheartedly conclude that a man, apart from Christ, is outside of enjoying God's presence, is dead in sin and under condemnation, until He places his trust in Christ alone for salvation.


IMHO, I don't think we we can grasp the depth and scope of Gods love, holiness or grace until we grasp His hatred of sin and come into full agreement with Him in this "hatred" of sin and the one who hates God..God's love is "conditional" in this sense..he can not "love" sin and He can do nothing less than "hate that which is unholy IMHO. :confused

Here is where we run into a bit of a problem and where we start to perhaps repeat some things that have already by spoken in the thread (this is not an uncomplex topic).

A simple question. Were you at one time, before faith in Christ, unholy (sinner, wicked, unrepentant, child of wrath, enemy of God)?

If you answer yes, then the question must be asked. Did God love you before you came to Christ?

I believe scripture is clear on this point:
Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Now to the point of hate. Did God hate you before you came to Christ?

I think the answer is yes, in that God hated the "old man", the "man of sin", that which was "of Adam". That God hated and destroyed through His redemptive work in Christ.

This is my understanding but I may be repeating myself here :blush:

Steven3
Dec 18th 2007, 04:22 AM
Hi WG :)
A popular phrase these days is "God hates the sin, not the sinner" (or some variation of that).

However, that seems to contradict what Scripture says.

Psalm 11:5 says this:

The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.


How do we reconcile the notion that God loves the sinner with this verse?

St. Augustine "Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum = With love for mankind and hatred of sins."

Ghandi "Hate the sin and not the sinner" (1929 autobiography).

Yes basically as Ps11:5 says it isn't scriptural, while it might be good advice for us (seeing as we are all sinners), from God's point of view God doesn't hate the vague concept of sin drifting around as a gas or ether, he hates people - murderers, rapists, liars, blasphemers, etc. And he will "destroy the wicked" not "destroy the sins of the wicked and save them".

Sin doesn't exist as an independant substance outside the human heart so it's, good intentions aside, not a scriptural argument.
Steven

Steven3
Dec 18th 2007, 04:24 AM
I think the answer is yes, in that God hated the "old man", the "man of sin", that which was "of Adam". That God hated and destroyed through His redemptive work in Christ.

Problem: Christ destroyed his devil (Heb2:14), he hasn't destroyed mine - and unlike Christ's mine is inside me, he has a foothold, since my old man is as alive and kicking as Paul's was.

Amazedgrace21
Dec 18th 2007, 04:57 AM
Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.



Toolman, I thank you for directing my atention to your questions and this verse for two reasons..:lol:

The first one is that I had made notes to myself regarding this question in an older bible of mine I have written so many notes in over the years, I had to retire it a while back, while I am busily doing the same to others sitting on my desk..it took me few moments to remember this as I was "pondering" your questions..

Coincidently, my best and most functional prescription glasses have been "missing" for quite some time and I had no luck finding them albeit I ransacked my house and many other places in the quest to find them..imagine my pleasure to not only find my notes in this bible but also my treasured "lost glasses" tucked away in the pocket of the cover :spin:

As to my understanding of this verse, perhaps it is because I was thinking in the KJV language of the verse, my attention was focused on a different emphasis here:

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.




Christ died for sinners; not only such as were useless, but such as were guilty and hateful; such that their everlasting destruction would be to the glory of God's justice. Christ died to save us, not in our sins, but from our sins; and we were yet sinners when he died for us. Nay, the carnal mind is not only an enemy to God, but enmity itself, chap. 8:7; Col 1:21. But God designed to deliver from sin, and to work a great change.

While the sinful state continues, God loathes the sinner, and the sinner loathes God, Zec 11:8. And that for such as these Christ should die, is a mystery; no other such an instance of love is known

So for my 2 cents worth here..God's nature and character is indeed the substance and nature of love that is glorified through Christ ..how this aspect of God's nature was "demonstrated" in a loving act to save us from our sins is one reality of God's position towards the sinner for "Christ's glory"..

but the sinner is not saved from sin until there is a response to this act..until the sinner yeilds to this love..the love that was manifested by Christs sacrifice on the cross "on the behalf" of a sinner can not be extended to the sinner.It was the dying Christ that laid the foundation of satisfying the debt of our sins and destroying the enmity between all sinners and God but is the living Jesus that perfects the work in the ones who believe in Him and "yeild themselves" to Him that the privalege of Gods love removes our status as His enemies.

To take the comfort of being able to receive the joy of Christs atonement for us, we have to understand that it is God's character that changed our circumstances in spite of our fallen nature (transformational love), and that it is the very substance of God's nature that chose to (transactional love) IMHO. ..what was done for us, unconditionally from God, who is "love" was also done in spite of our conditional response, as sinners. Again, IMHO, our conditional response ( as sinners) is responded to in accordinace with God's holiness. To reject's God love, is to remain in "enmity" with Him. Christ is our mediator, but if we do not accept Him or his payment of our sins, we remain the ones who will have to pay this debt, and will not cease to be at the receiving end of Gods wrath, as His enemies.

Thanks for sharing these great questions..that ask us to look at these things more closely and, once again pointed me also in the direction of finding my lost glasses so I could.."very literaly"..:)

Friend of I AM
Dec 18th 2007, 01:38 PM
Romans 13


Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


1 John 3: 11-24
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Love is the fulfillment of the law - not hate. Love protects, edifies, and brings one to repentance and to have love for God and their fellow man. God hates what is evil, because that is the loving thing to do. If he Loved evil, then he wouldn't be loving. If we walk with God, we walk with him in love - not hate.

RogerW
Dec 18th 2007, 03:05 PM
A popular phrase these days is "God hates the sin, not the sinner" (or some variation of that).

However, that seems to contradict what Scripture says.

Psalm 11:5 says this:

The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

How do we reconcile the notion that God loves the sinner with this verse?

Greetings WG :)

We read in 1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

When one hates does it not show they walk in darkness?

1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

The question that begs answer, if there is no darkness in the Lord, then how can He hate any man?...yet Scripture clearly says "His soul hates the wicked."

When Scripture tells us "God is light" and "God is love" it speaks of His nature. One cannot act outside his/her nature. For instance one who is walking in darkness cannot love the light, or love God for it is against their nature. They love the darkness and cannot come unto the light.

The absence of love is hate, the absense of light is darkness, the absence of righteousness is unrighteousness. Therefore when Scripture says God hates any man it is declaring the absense of God's love being extended to that man, and the absense of God bringing him unto the light, and the absense of God imputing righteousness to that man.

God cannot hate for it would be acting outside His nature to do so. But God can and does withhold His love, light, and righteousness, thereby leaving those He withholds love, light and righteousness in hate, evil, darkness, and unrighteousness.

The saving love of God is extended only to the elect and the rest are left in their fallen nature that knows only hate and evil. There is a common love that God extends unto both believers and unbelievers alike in His providential care of His creation, but the love of God unto salvation is extended only to those He has chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, being predestinated unto adoption by Christ, and made accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

To tell Christ rejecting sinners that God loves them is simply giving them reason to remain comfortable in their sin. In this manner God so loves the created kosmos (world), He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole kosmos. This does not mean that God loves every man, but that Christ's death paid the sin debt, and in doing so assures us that one day sin will be no more. We "look for a new heaven and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2Pe 3:13).

Thanks for the thread, it's a very good one!

Many Blessings,
RW

ikester7579
Dec 18th 2007, 03:18 PM
A popular phrase these days is "God hates the sin, not the sinner" (or some variation of that).

However, that seems to contradict what Scripture says.

Psalm 11:5 says this:

The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.


How do we reconcile the notion that God loves the sinner with this verse?

It's one of those phrases someone said one day, and it stuck. Like WWJD.

Also, if God loves the sinner, why is there hell?

I believe this phrase probably came from one of those religious cults that deny hell and use the excuse: Would you send your own children to hell? Then why would God send His children?:rolleyes:

Friend of I AM
Dec 18th 2007, 03:27 PM
Good stuff Roger. I think there's also a difference between dislike and hate too. There are many people I don't really like all that much, but I don't hate anyone or wish anything bad upon them. As I grow in grace though, I'm trying(hard) to learn how to find good qualities about various personalities that don't mesh well with my own.

When you look at the Lord's disciple's you see a diverse group of people, which I think all represent the personality and good qualities of the Lord. Being brothers and sister's in Christ, often times we'll find that we don't mesh well right away with some of our bretheren.

What's funny is how the Lord paired the disciples with very much different personalities together, perhaps so they could learn to mesh well and accept and appreciate others differences.

I often think John and Peter was probably a real funny pairing..you have the brashness of Peter and the quietness of John. I'm sure these two initially were thinking "Oh no why'd you pair me up with this guy" upon initially being chosen to be together...:lol:

Funnily enough, I often times find myself relating to both of these guys at the same time. I feel like I'm half peter half john in my personality sometimes. Often times I can be very direct like Peter at times, which can come off as offensive to others - but at the same time - I can become very quiet and sensitive much like John - particularly since I'm a fairly sensitive person.

Can you imagine how much Love the Lord possesses - to deal with such a multitude of personalities of people within his body? I certainly can't..:)

Toolman
Dec 18th 2007, 03:36 PM
Problem: Christ destroyed his devil (Heb2:14), he hasn't destroyed mine - and unlike Christ's mine is inside me, he has a foothold, since my old man is as alive and kicking as Paul's was.

Fear not... He has.. He is.. and He will!

Don't worry.. His plan of redemption will not fail. For now we wait with assured, secure hope that He has has promised is able to accomplish what He has purposed.

Romans 8:18-25 - For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance

Romans 6:6 - Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Toolman
Dec 18th 2007, 03:55 PM
Toolman, I thank you for directing my atention to your questions and this verse for two reasons..:lol:

The first one is that I had made notes to myself regarding this question in an older bible of mine I have written so many notes in over the years, I had to retire it a while back, while I am busily doing the same to others sitting on my desk..it took me few moments to remember this as I was "pondering" your questions..

Coincidently, my best and most functional prescription glasses have been "missing" for quite some time and I had no luck finding them albeit I ransacked my house and many other places in the quest to find them..imagine my pleasure to not only find my notes in this bible but also my treasured "lost glasses" tucked away in the pocket of the cover :spin:

What a blessing! I've recently hit that "reading glasses" stage myself so I can empathize with you :)


As to my understanding of this verse, perhaps it is because I was thinking in the KJV language of the verse, my attention was focused on a different emphasis here:

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ died for sinners; not only such as were useless, but such as were guilty and hateful; such that their everlasting destruction would be to the glory of God's justice. Christ died to save us, not in our sins, but from our sins; and we were yet sinners when he died for us. Nay, the carnal mind is not only an enemy to God, but enmity itself, chap. 8:7; Col 1:21. But God designed to deliver from sin, and to work a great change.

Here is where I disagree with the traditional reformed position that Christ died so that the non-elect will bring glory to God by their everlasting destruction.

God's glory is not a selfish glory but a self-less glory. Love does not seek its own way but looks for the betterment of the other.

Other than that I completely agree that Christ came to save us from sin and I wholeheartedly believe He will accomplish just that.


While the sinful state continues, God loathes the sinner, and the sinner loathes God, Zec 11:8. And that for such as these Christ should die, is a mystery; no other such an instance of love is known

So for my 2 cents worth here..God's nature and character is indeed the substance and nature of love that is glorified through Christ ..how this aspect of God's nature was "demonstrated" in a loving act to save us from our sins is one reality of God's position towards the sinner for "Christ's glory"..

Completely agree.


but the sinner is not saved from sin until there is a response to this act..until the sinner yeilds to this love..the love that was manifested by Christs sacrifice on the cross "on the behalf" of a sinner can not be extended to the sinner.It was the dying Christ that laid the foundation of satisfying the debt of our sins and destroying the enmity between all sinners and God but is the living Jesus that perfects the work in the ones who believe in Him and "yeild themselves" to Him that the privalege of Gods love removes our status as His enemies.

Total and complete agreement. Until a person comes to faith in Christ they remain under condemnation and wrath.


To take the comfort of being able to receive the joy of Christs atonement for us, we have to understand that it is God's character that changed our circumstances in spite of our fallen nature (transformational love), and that it is the very substance of God's nature that chose to (transactional love) IMHO. ..what was done for us, unconditionally from God, who is "love" was also done in spite of our conditional response, as sinners. Again, IMHO, our conditional response ( as sinners) is responded to in accordinace with God's holiness. To reject's God love, is to remain in "enmity" with Him. Christ is our mediator, but if we do not accept Him or his payment of our sins, we remain the ones who will have to pay this debt, and will not cease to be at the receiving end of Gods wrath, as His enemies.

No disagreement there. Those who are outside of faith in Christ are already condemned and remain so until they place their trust in Him alone.


Thanks for sharing these great questions..that ask us to look at these things more closely and, once again pointed me also in the direction of finding my lost glasses so I could.."very literaly"..:)

LOL.. excellent. I've enjoyed your responses to the questions and your spirit in discussing.