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I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 04:51 AM
I support Ron Paul, he would give states the power to overturn Roe v. Wade.

I just read this sentiment in someone's signature line and it got me thinking. First of all I can acknowledge that abortion is a hot topic on both sides, but do we really want to start trying to push our beliefs on the secular world? What happens when that backfires and they start pushing back? What happens when they start pushing their beliefs on us? When they start taking away our rights? I am a Christian, but I do not support overturning Roe versus Wade. My spiritual beliefs should not govern what a non believer has the right to do or not to do. Once you start making statements like the one above, once you start pushing for laws based on your beliefs, you open a can of worms that none of us our ready to deal with. Thoughts?

Thirst
Dec 18th 2007, 05:02 AM
Well... Jesus had no problem pushing His beliefs on the secular world, and I am sure that in many instances, that ended up saving people's souls because they turned to Him rather than the world.

Being afraid of being pushed back is foolish. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be blunt or rude at all, but I think it is foolish and cowardly. If I am afraid that some people might push back, then I will cease to try and witness to my family and friends, and they could be lost forever.

This issue is very dear to my heart. Abortion is not right. It is not of God. It ruins people's lives. I have known women who get abortions, and it literally ruins their lives. It is sick that it has became just another form of birth control.

What is the verse that is in the Bible where Jesus talked about "little ones?" Something about harming them, and Jesus saying that they would wish that they were never even born. That child being taken away for selfish reasons is putting a stop to a creation (formed in the womb) that God has willed.

He said He knew us before we were even formed.

I think it would be awesome to get Roe v. Wade overturned, and I don't care who disagrees with me. In all we do, we are supposed to do for the glory of God.

(my apologies if this post comes off as harsh, that was not my intention at all)

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 05:13 AM
Being afraid of being pushed back is foolish. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be blunt or rude at all, but I think it is foolish and cowardly. If I am afraid that some people might push back, then I will cease to try and witness to my family and friends, and they could be lost forever.

What I am trying to say is if you start pushing and taking away people's rights based on your beliefs then you better expect that the same will happen to you. What happens when they take away your right to worship or to assemble or to own a Bible or to wear religious symbols? I bet a shiny nickel that your response will be something along the lines of "It is our lot to be persecuted." I am not comfortable trying to push my faith to govern people. There is a difference between bringing people to God and forcing them to adhere to scriptural rule. I think if Christianity gets the credit for overturning Roe versus Wade you are going to push people farther away from God.

Thirst
Dec 18th 2007, 05:21 AM
What I am trying to say is if you start pushing and taking away people's rights based on your beliefs then you better expect that the same will happen to you. What happens when they take away your right to worship or to assemble or to own a Bible or to wear religious symbols? I bet a shiny nickel that your response will be something along the lines of "It is our lot to be persecuted." I am not comfortable trying to push my faith to govern people. There is a difference between bringing people to God and forcing them to adhere to scriptural rule. I think if Christianity gets the credit for overturning Roe versus Wade you are going to push people farther away from God.

God knew their heart from the beginning. What about the person who was killed and never got a chance at life?

And taking away rights? The secular world already does that, evidenced by the restrictions schools place on their students. My nephew wanted to do a solo to Silent Night, and was told that he absolutely could not do that. Any other song was fine, just not that one. Look around... Many of our rights are already being stripped away from us.

I recall Peter telling the Pharisee's that he would rather obey God than man. If our rights are taken and those rights being taken end up ending a murderous exercise, then so be it. I will still have Jesus, as will you, and He and He alone makes our joy complete.

It is doubtful that we will agree. I just don't see this the same way that you do. I understand that forcing our beliefs to govern is a slippery slope that might hurt. But we are given a spirit of power, not timidity. We are not supposed to tolerate sin and be okay with it.

One of my favorite bumper stickers I've ever seen says, "Smile! Your mother was pro-life!" I think that sums it up well.

Abortion is wrong and in my eyes, criminal.

Thirst
Dec 18th 2007, 05:32 AM
Once again, I see that when someone tries to stand up for something that is not popular in the world's view, it is insane thinking. The Bible tells us that we will be persecuted for trying to do what is good. I<3Jesus, I am not saying this to you... I am saying this to myself and the world. What we believe and the stand we take for God is hardly ever popular. We are looked at with having a closed mind. I think God calls it something entirely different.

We are to please people and tolerate unGodliness. We are to look away when we see sin. We are to please people and not stand up for the right of life that God has given.

I can't do that.

Again, this is a delicate issue and very controversial. So please don't take offense to anything that I write. There are going to be some heated replies, so please don't take anything personally.

Thirst
Dec 18th 2007, 06:02 AM
One more thing to say... Since Roe v. Wade was implemented, there have been over 50,000,000 abortions. Only two (2!) percent of these cases have been due to 'medical' reasons. It is someone saying, "I am mature enough to have sex, but I can't deal with the consequences, especially a baby."

I'll find the statistics, but that is what I read. Sad.

Matthew
Dec 18th 2007, 06:12 AM
I just read this sentiment in someone's signature line and it got me thinking. First of all I can acknowledge that abortion is a hot topic on both sides, but do we really want to start trying to push our beliefs on the secular world? What happens when that backfires and they start pushing back? What happens when they start pushing their beliefs on us? When they start taking away our rights? I am a Christian, but I do not support overturning Roe versus Wade. My spiritual beliefs should not govern what a non believer has the right to do or not to do. Once you start making statements like the one above, once you start pushing for laws based on your beliefs, you open a can of worms that none of us our ready to deal with. Thoughts?

Overturning Roe v. Wade would not get rid of abortion completely. All it would do is give the power back to the states to decide whether they want abortion to be illegal or not.

I think each person has to decide what they really think abortion is. To me life begins at conception. Given that stance I cannot approve of abortion unless there is a risk to the mother's or the child's life.

As for pushing our beliefs on others, we already do that. There are all sorts of morals regulations in the law. No incest. Can't have two wives. Better put down that marijuana. What if the parents of a newborn had no problem with infanticide? Of course we, and I'll venture to say all of society, have a huge problem with that. Certainly we are pushing our morals onto them by not allowing infanticide, but we're well within our right to do so.

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 06:28 AM
As for pushing our beliefs on others, we already do that. There are all sorts of morals regulations in the law. No incest. Can't have two wives. Better put down that marijuana. What if the parents of a newborn had no problem with infanticide? Of course we, and I'll venture to say all of society, have a huge problem with that. Certainly we are pushing our morals onto them by not allowing infanticide, but we're well within our right to do so.

I do not see those things as merely Christian morals. I do not know anyone who thinks it is OK to have an incestuous relationship regardless of their religious beliefs (Ewww). Having two wives might be a scriptural thing, but again I think it has more to do with common decency and common sense (who in their right mind would want two wives - LOL). Marijuana is only illegal because they cannot find a way to legally distribute and tax it. If they could, marijuana would be sold right next to cigarettes (which are deadly and should be made illegal). Cigarettes claim more lives in one day than marijuana does in a month (or something, I cannot remember the exact quote). I really think the things you mentioned are not even in the same league as abortion.

Here is an example, say there is this new religion that starts to take a strong hold in America and that religion lobbies for a new law to be made that every household must have a male heir and are allowed only two chances to have one (all other female children will be put to death). What would you do? I am trying to come up with a comparable scenario and it is pretty hard. I am sure you wouldn't agree to that. You would be livid if the government told you what to do with your body and your children. Would you just submit because these religious folks told you that they are children of the one true God and they are scripturally bound to hold you accountable to their moral code of law?

foxglove
Dec 18th 2007, 01:03 PM
As a Christian, I would naturally encourage any pregnant friend of mine who was not interested in keeping the baby to consider adoption. I would try to point out facts in addition to delivering my personal opinion, so that she, and a spouse or boyfriend, if involved, could make the right choice. However, I do not feel it is my right to overturn a law allowing a stranger to access abortion. I also don't feel many people are reached by having their rights removed. That just doesn't seem to resonate positively with most. I think a better example is to educate and support in every way while consistently advising those you know or work with of your beliefs and backing opinion up with reasoning.

I have sat in the lobby of a women's crisis center that performed abortions while a friend had one, and I drove her home afterward, not because I supported it (which I made clear) but because no one else was willing to do it, and as much as I disliked her choice, my choice was to let her suffer it alone or have someone with her. We cried and prayed on the way home and cried and prayed a lot the weekend after. Incidentally, she's now a pretty active pro-lifer and a Christian. I don't regret that action at all although a couple people have said it was a mistake. Had she gone through the procedure and come out to an empty room, taken a public bus home and sat alone in her apartment, I think suicide might have been her choice; she was that distraught. She also probably would have lumped me with the "Christians" who taunted her with signs, called her a murderer and ignored her needs in every way.

Ideally, there would be so many great programs in place that it would make sense to adopt instead of abort, but for many individuals the financial burden alone coupled with the lack of support, an absentee boyfriend or "baby's daddy", fear, family outrage, domestic abuse, etc make pregnancy and adoption or keeping the child a difficult choice or even an impossible one. There are a few programs, not enough. There isn't nearly enough education. There is some shock education being promoted, like showing women pictures of cut up babies post-abortion, but while that may disgust and horrify them, it doesn't answer whatever is driving their desire to abort and be free of the pregnancy. It might turn a woman away from an abortion clinic but within a couple weeks the overwhelming concern will probably drive her to another one. I really think for those of us who are pro-life, our actions need to find alternative solutions for the problem of unwanted pregnancy before we can rule out those we find immoral.



Well... Jesus had no problem pushing His beliefs on the secular world, and I am sure that in many instances, that ended up saving people's souls because they turned to Him rather than the world.

That is true, but I also think -- that's because he was Jesus! I think the situation is probably quite different for ordinary Christians.


Being afraid of being pushed back is foolish. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be blunt or rude at all, but I think it is foolish and cowardly. If I am afraid that some people might push back, then I will cease to try and witness to my family and friends, and they could be lost forever.

I agree that people should not keep silent because of fear of reprisals, especially if they feel convicted and know a calling to tackle a particular issue. However, I don't think that witnessing to family and friends compares to attempting to control, through legislation, the rights, choices and freedoms of non-believers.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 01:42 PM
I just read this sentiment in someone's signature line and it got me thinking. First of all I can acknowledge that abortion is a hot topic on both sides, but do we really want to start trying to push our beliefs on the secular world? What happens when that backfires and they start pushing back? What happens when they start pushing their beliefs on us? When they start taking away our rights? I am a Christian, but I do not support overturning Roe versus Wade. My spiritual beliefs should not govern what a non believer has the right to do or not to do. Once you start making statements like the one above, once you start pushing for laws based on your beliefs, you open a can of worms that none of us our ready to deal with. Thoughts?

Abortion is not merely a "religious" issue. It is very much a human rights issue.

Slaughtering an unborn child is not a right. Period.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 01:49 PM
What I am trying to say is if you start pushing and taking away people's rights based on your beliefs then you better expect that the same will happen to you.

Again...murder is not a right. The Declaration of Independence lists LIFE as an unalienable right, not murder.


What happens when they take away your right to worship or to assemble or to own a Bible or to wear religious symbols?

Should I not defend the right to life of the most innocent in our society based on perceived threats to my own freedoms? Is that not a completely self-serving notion?


I am not comfortable trying to push my faith to govern people.

I am not comfortable with the millions of babies who are killed for the sake of convenience each year.


I think if Christianity gets the credit for overturning Roe versus Wade you are going to push people farther away from God.

Are you saying it will bring people TO God by turning a blind eye to the merciless killing of millions of babies every year? You are going to have to explain your logic on that one.

ProjectPeter
Dec 18th 2007, 02:13 PM
I don't see this as an issue that we should even hesitate to fuss about. It is about justice for the helpless and we need to make it an issue regardless of the fussing about us legislating morality or all the popular buzz words tossed about today. If it backfires then it backfires... but if we don't fight for the helpless... we just might well find ourselves on the side with the goats. Simple as that really. Defending the helpless is something that God requires and we should take it as serious as anything else. Regardless of whether or not folks want to give it names trying to label it as something sinister.

Seeker of truth
Dec 18th 2007, 02:16 PM
I don't see this as an issue that we should even hesitate to fuss about. It is about justice for the helpless and we need to make it an issue regardless of the fussing about us legislating morality or all the popular buzz words tossed about today. If it backfires then it backfires... but if we don't fight for the helpless... we just might well find ourselves on the side with the goats. Simple as that really. Defending the helpless is something that God requires and we should take it as serious as anything else. Regardless of whether or not folks want to give it names trying to label it as something sinister.

Wonderful post and I totally agree!

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 04:57 PM
Ideally, there would be so many great programs in place that it would make sense to adopt instead of abort, but for many individuals the financial burden alone coupled with the lack of support, an absentee boyfriend or "baby's daddy", fear, family outrage, domestic abuse, etc make pregnancy and adoption or keeping the child a difficult choice or even an impossible one. There are a few programs, not enough. There isn't nearly enough education. There is some shock education being promoted, like showing women pictures of cut up babies post-abortion, but while that may disgust and horrify them, it doesn't answer whatever is driving their desire to abort and be free of the pregnancy. It might turn a woman away from an abortion clinic but within a couple weeks the overwhelming concern will probably drive her to another one. I really think for those of us who are pro-life, our actions need to find alternative solutions for the problem of unwanted pregnancy before we can rule out those we find immoral.

I completely agree. I spent several months volunteering at a free clinic. Those women come from all types of backgrounds of abuse and poverty. I do not think it is a black and white issue like so many others make it. We had a nine year old girl come in who was impregnated by her father. Should she be forced to carry the child to term because my religious beliefs, not hers, say she should?

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 04:58 PM
Are you saying it will bring people TO God by turning a blind eye to the merciless killing of millions of babies every year? You are going to have to explain your logic on that one.

No, I am saying that forcing people to comply with your religious ideals will not bring them to God.

Matthew
Dec 18th 2007, 05:05 PM
I do not see those things as merely Christian morals. I do not know anyone who thinks it is OK to have an incestuous relationship regardless of their religious beliefs (Ewww). Having two wives might be a scriptural thing, but again I think it has more to do with common decency and common sense (who in their right mind would want two wives - LOL). Marijuana is only illegal because they cannot find a way to legally distribute and tax it. If they could, marijuana would be sold right next to cigarettes (which are deadly and should be made illegal). Cigarettes claim more lives in one day than marijuana does in a month (or something, I cannot remember the exact quote). I really think the things you mentioned are not even in the same league as abortion.

I don't think being anti-abortion is merely a Christian moral. We're not saying these people have to believe in Jesus or any kind of deity. Just don't end a human life.

As for incest and having multiple wives, there are people who support both respectively. Who does it hurt if a brother and sister have an initimate relationship? They use birth control and do not want to have kids. They're just having a good time. The fact is that they are not directly injuring anyone. We as a society view that act as detestable and rightly so. I don't mean to go off on another tangent; I only mean to demonstrate that society makes judgments of what is right and wrong and imposes those judgments on all of society, not just those that agree. This is perfectly fine unless the individual has a right that is being infringed upon.


Here is an example, say there is this new religion that starts to take a strong hold in America and that religion lobbies for a new law to be made that every household must have a male heir and are allowed only two chances to have one (all other female children will be put to death). What would you do? I am trying to come up with a comparable scenario and it is pretty hard. I am sure you wouldn't agree to that. You would be livid if the government told you what to do with your body and your children. Would you just submit because these religious folks told you that they are children of the one true God and they are scripturally bound to hold you accountable to their moral code of law?

Mandating the killing of an innocent life and prohibiting the killing of an innocent life are completely opposite. I believe your hypothetical points out the flaw in reasoning of those who support abortion, no offense intended of course. In your example you suggest a scenario in which female children in some instances are put to death. You imply this is wrong because the government is telling citizens what to do with their bodies and children. How about the fact that an innocent girl is losing her life? We can't only focus on the impact on the parents. The ones being the most affected by this are the children being killed.

With abortion we don't have a child that has been born. Nevertheless, what is being killed is human and it is living and developing. If you believe that life begins at conception then you also must take into account the interest of that life before terminating it. You may think the woman's interest outweighs the interest of the unborn life, but you can't restrict the argument to only being about "choice."

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 05:06 PM
Oh and for the record, I realize this is a heated topic, but could we refrain from attacking the topic starter? I am really trying to sort my feelings out on the issue and want to know where other Christians stand, but I am not comfortable with people making assumptions about my character or attacking my faith. Thanks in advance!

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 05:19 PM
I don't think being anti-abortion is merely a Christian moral. We're not saying these people have to believe in Jesus or any kind of deity. Just don't end a human life.

As for incest and having multiple wives, there are people who support both respectively. Who does it hurt if a brother and sister have an initimate relationship? They use birth control and do not want to have kids. They're just having a good time. The fact is that they are not directly injuring anyone. We as a society view that act as detestable and rightly so. I don't mean to go off on another tangent; I only mean to demonstrate that society makes judgments of what is right and wrong and imposes those judgments on all of society, not just those that agree. This is perfectly fine unless the individual has a right that is being infringed upon.

No offense, but the incest argument just needs to be dropped. I do not know anyone who thinks it is OK to have sexual relations with their family members. The whole conversation is making me quite ill, so can we refrain from bringing it up anymore?


Mandating the killing of an innocent life and prohibiting the killing of an innocent life are completely opposite. I believe your hypothetical points out the flaw in reasoning of those who support abortion, no offense intended of course. In your example you suggest a scenario in which female children in some instances are put to death. You imply this is wrong because the government is telling citizens what to do with their bodies and children. How about the fact that an innocent girl is losing her life? We can't only focus on the impact on the parents. The ones being the most affected by this are the children being killed.

With abortion we don't have a child that has been born. Nevertheless, what is being killed is human and it is living and developing. If you believe that life begins at conception then you also must take into account the interest of that life before terminating it. You may think the woman's interest outweighs the interest of the unborn life, but you can't restrict the argument to only being about "choice."

I said my example was flawed. ;) It was like 2 am, cut me some slack. Ha. The point I was trying to make is that you would not stand for another faith dictating what to do with your born or unborn child right? Why on earth do you think that forcing secular people to adhere to your standard is going to bring them to God? Sure there are non secular people who are against abortion too, but the loudest opponents are those whose argument is faith based.

I can tell you from having first hand experience in dealing with some of these women that they do not believe in God because they have been beaten down their entire life. They take the stance that there is no God because if there was, why would he let them go through hell. These women have no other choice because there are so very few options for them. Christians flap their gums about wanting to make abortion illegal, which is fine, but what other option are you giving these women? Instead of fighting to push your ideals on them, how about doing something positive to help them. How about helping to build safe houses and organizations to help them carry the child to term in a safe, healthy environment? How about pushing for better legislation when it comes to adoption? How about reforming the current organizations in place that are supposed to help house unwanted children? Do you realize that there are thousands of children in this country that are supposed to be accounted for and in foster homes that have gone missing? Most of which are far too young to be run aways. What happened to them and why isn't anyone looking for them? My point is it is SO easy to point your finger and demand that something be changed on a level in which you have absolutely no responsibility. I just think that we should be doing something to help these women instead of just decreasing their options and vanishing silently into the night.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 06:01 PM
No, I am saying that forcing people to comply with your religious ideals will not bring them to God.

Protecting the right to life, an unalienable RIGHT listed in the Declaration of Independence, is not about forcing religious ideals on people. It is about protecting the lives of defenseless babies who are being killed.

Some of the most ardent pro-lifers I know are atheists who recognize abortion as a complete violation of the right to life we all are given in this country.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 06:03 PM
I can tell you from having first hand experience in dealing with some of these women that they do not believe in God because they have been beaten down their entire life. They take the stance that there is no God because if there was, why would he let them go through hell. These women have no other choice because there are so very few options for them. Christians flap their gums about wanting to make abortion illegal, which is fine, but what other option are you giving these women? Instead of fighting to push your ideals on them, how about doing something positive to help them. How about helping to build safe houses and organizations to help them carry the child to term in a safe, healthy environment? How about pushing for better legislation when it comes to adoption? How about reforming the current organizations in place that are supposed to help house unwanted children? Do you realize that there are thousands of children in this country that are supposed to be accounted for and in foster homes that have gone missing? Most of which are far too young to be run aways. What happened to them and why isn't anyone looking for them? My point is it is SO easy to point your finger and demand that something be changed on a level in which you have absolutely no responsibility. I just think that we should be doing something to help these women instead of just decreasing their options and vanishing silently into the night.

Honestly, this is irrelevent to the OP. Even if I never did a thing to help a pregnant woman in crisis (though I do through several pro-life organizations), that still does not take away the right to life of children in the womb.

I think your ideas are great. But it doesn't matter what situation a woman is in....it does not give her the right to kill an innocent life.

Would you ever suggest that it is okay for a woman in a dire situation to kill a newborn baby? Why, then, is it okay for her to kill a preborn baby?

Jeanne D
Dec 18th 2007, 06:21 PM
Here is a link to an article about Norma McCorvey, the woman known as "Roe" in the case of Roe v. Wade.

She has had a change of heart and is totally pro-life now! PTL!


http://www.leaderu.com/common/roev.html


Jeanne

Steve M
Dec 18th 2007, 06:35 PM
I am extremely wary of any attempt to legislate Christian morality.

Yeah, that's right. I think it's a bad idea to put any Christian ideals into law.

I think law should all be made up entirely of libertarian ideals--i.e., protection for the weak and helpless.

That includes young women who are in the uneviable position of being pregnant and not knowing what to do about it.

But that also includes their babies.

And if that's a problem, so be it.

Is that a religous ideal? Well, is my belief that people shouldn't steal from me a religious ideal? Is my belief that people shouldn't hit each other a religious ideal?

...

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 07:31 PM
Honestly, this is irrelevent to the OP. Even if I never did a thing to help a pregnant woman in crisis (though I do through several pro-life organizations), that still does not take away the right to life of children in the womb.

I think your ideas are great. But it doesn't matter what situation a woman is in....it does not give her the right to kill an innocent life.

Would you ever suggest that it is okay for a woman in a dire situation to kill a newborn baby? Why, then, is it okay for her to kill a preborn baby?

I do not know what OP means. If you are saying that it is irrelevant to take these women's rights away, but not give them an alternative I would say that is not fair. I understand that your point is to protect the rights of the unborn, but you are basically saying that you are OK with infringing on the rights one group to protect another. If that is the case, where does it end? Once you have overturned Roe Versus Wade, who is next on the chopping block? Are you ready to deal with the Pandora's Box that overturning Roe Versus Wade will open? It is not a clear cut, black and white issue. If you take away these women's rights then you better darn sure have something in place to help them and the unborn infants they carry.

Oh and when I see you I mean collective you, not you as an individual.

Steve M
Dec 18th 2007, 07:32 PM
OP = Original Post

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 07:32 PM
OP = Original Post

Thank you. In that case, I think it is quite relevant.

A Seeker
Dec 18th 2007, 07:43 PM
For what its worth.

I think that America is a democracy, set up with systems to create laws. To overturn or suspend those laws for ANY reason be it abortion, national security or spelling reform is dangerous!

The debate over whether abortion is moral is not relevant to this issue in my view. Its about whether one can overturn a law because we don;t like it. For any reason.

One other point is that making abortion illegal will not stop it happening alltogether. It WILL drive a lot of people to underground clinics. Not saying it won't stop some mind, just not all.

Blessings to all

Steve M
Dec 18th 2007, 07:50 PM
For what its worth.

I think that America is a democracy, set up with systems to create laws. To overturn or suspend those laws for ANY reason be it abortion, national security or spelling reform is dangerous!

The debate over whether abortion is moral is not relevant to this issue in my view. Its about whether one can overturn a law because we don;t like it. For any reason.

One other point is that making abortion illegal will not stop it happening alltogether. It WILL drive a lot of people to underground clinics. Not saying it won't stop some mind, just not all.

Blessings to all
Uh, we overturn laws EVERY DAY. That's the whole point of this 'democracy' thing.

Courts overturn them. Legislators overturn them. New laws come out every year.

Things which were previously legal are found to be morally abhorrent and are no longer legal. See; slavery. Things which were previously illegal and morally abhorrent are found not to effect other people and made legal. See; cohabitation.

Paul_born_again
Dec 18th 2007, 07:53 PM
...Since Roe v. Wade was implemented, there have been over 50,000,000 abortions. Only two (2!) percent of these cases have been due to 'medical' reasons...

Do you have a source for those two points? (I'm not doubting the validity of them) Thanks :)

jeffreys
Dec 18th 2007, 07:56 PM
Oh and for the record, I realize this is a heated topic, but could we refrain from attacking the topic starter? I am really trying to sort my feelings out on the issue and want to know where other Christians stand, but I am not comfortable with people making assumptions about my character or attacking my faith. Thanks in advance!

Here's my view...

Abortion is wrong. Period. It is wrong because it is murder - even though there are those who will hide behind the thinly-veiled definition of murder as being the "illegal" taking of human life.

Abortion ends of the life of a pre-born baby. The innocent, pre-born baby is sacrificed because of other people's choices and behavior.

This is not a religious issue, per se. It is an issue of murder.


That being said, how DARE Christians scream and yell about the atrocities of abortion if we will not also get involved in helping those who face crisis pregnancies! EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to back up those words with a willingness to take in a woman/girl experiencing a crisis pregnancy. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to adopt a child of crisis pregnancy, if the mother decides to bring the child to term. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to financially support crisis pregnancy centers - and volunteer at them.

Anything less is sheer and utter hypocrisy.

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 07:57 PM
Steve and A Seeker - Good points by both of you and I totally can see where you both are coming from.

Edited to add: I <3 Jeffreys.

A Seeker
Dec 18th 2007, 08:18 PM
Uh, we overturn laws EVERY DAY. That's the whole point of this 'democracy' thing.

Courts overturn them. Legislators overturn them. New laws come out every year.

Things which were previously legal are found to be morally abhorrent and are no longer legal. See; slavery. Things which were previously illegal and morally abhorrent are found not to effect other people and made legal. See; cohabitation.


Ah.

Ok:hmm:

I just got the idea we were talking about overturning it outside of the system.

Sorry:blush:

teddyv
Dec 18th 2007, 08:31 PM
Here's my view...

Abortion is wrong. Period. It is wrong because it is murder - even though there are those who will hide behind the thinly-veiled definition of murder as being the "illegal" taking of human life.

Abortion ends of the life of a pre-born baby. The innocent, pre-born baby is sacrificed because of other people's choices and behavior.

This is not a religious issue, per se. It is an issue of murder.


I don't disagree with your view. However in our society, there is the issue of defining when life begins. We as Christians define life beginning at conception. This is not the definition of all people and I don't think of mainstream medical science (but I would love clarification or correction if I have mis-stated).


That being said, how DARE Christians scream and yell about the atrocities of abortion if we will not also get involved in helping those who face crisis pregnancies! EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to back up those words with a willingness to take in a woman/girl experiencing a crisis pregnancy. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to adopt a child of crisis pregnancy, if the mother decides to bring the child to term. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to financially support crisis pregnancy centers - and volunteer at them.

Anything less is sheer and utter hypocrisy.

Absolutely.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 08:41 PM
That being said, how DARE Christians scream and yell about the atrocities of abortion if we will not also get involved in helping those who face crisis pregnancies! EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to back up those words with a willingness to take in a woman/girl experiencing a crisis pregnancy. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to adopt a child of crisis pregnancy, if the mother decides to bring the child to term. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to financially support crisis pregnancy centers - and volunteer at them.

Anything less is sheer and utter hypocrisy.

No, saying abortion is wrong is a fact. There is no hypocrisy in calling something wrong when it is, indeed, wrong.

I would be a hypocrite if I called abortion wrong and then had one myself.

jeffreys
Dec 18th 2007, 08:44 PM
I don't disagree with your view. However in our society, there is the issue of defining when life begins. We as Christians define life beginning at conception. This is not the definition of all people and I don't think of mainstream medical science (but I would love clarification or correction if I have mis-stated).

Absolutely.

You're absolutely right.

On the other hand, we now know that there is a heartbeat before (or shortly after) a woman even finds out she's pregnant. I fail to see how anybody can say that is not a human. And the whole issue of "viable life outside the womb" is becoming extremely tenuous, because premies are able to live at younger ages all the time.

Personally, I believe that most of the pro-abortionists are not only very narrow in their view, they're standing on slippery ground. When the time comes that a baby is able to live - outside the womb - at 3 months' gestation, how can abortion beyond that point NOT be viewed as murder?

There are interesting days ahead!

jeffreys
Dec 18th 2007, 08:45 PM
No, saying abortion is wrong is a fact. There is no hypocrisy in calling something wrong when it is, indeed, wrong.

I would be a hypocrite if I called abortion wrong and then had one myself.

So it's NOT hypocritical to say abortion is wrong, but refuse to help those who are in crisis pregnancies? :hmm:

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 08:52 PM
So it's NOT hypocritical to say abortion is wrong, but refuse to help those who are in crisis pregnancies? :hmm:

No, it's not hypocritical. Abortion is wrong whether I help those who are in crisis pregnancies or not.

Should we help those in crisis pregnancies? Of course. But life circumstances are not an excuse to kill a child, born or not. A woman in the most dire of circumstances still does not have the right to kill her child.

Matthew
Dec 18th 2007, 08:53 PM
No offense, but the incest argument just needs to be dropped. I do not know anyone who thinks it is OK to have sexual relations with their family members. The whole conversation is making me quite ill, so can we refrain from bringing it up anymore?

Agreed.



I said my example was flawed. ;) It was like 2 am, cut me some slack. Ha. The point I was trying to make is that you would not stand for another faith dictating what to do with your born or unborn child right? Why on earth do you think that forcing secular people to adhere to your standard is going to bring them to God? Sure there are non secular people who are against abortion too, but the loudest opponents are those whose argument is faith based.

We force people to adhere to a standard because we believe that standard is right. That's my whole point in bringing up other these other examples. It's not about saying everyone has to be a Christian; it's about saying this practice is morally wrong and should not be tolerated by our society. No one is imposing our faith on anyone else.

Also, our society absolutely sets standards for what you can do with your children. You can't just say "It's my child, I can do what I want with it."


I can tell you from having first hand experience in dealing with some of these women that they do not believe in God because they have been beaten down their entire life. They take the stance that there is no God because if there was, why would he let them go through hell. These women have no other choice because there are so very few options for them. Christians flap their gums about wanting to make abortion illegal, which is fine, but what other option are you giving these women? Instead of fighting to push your ideals on them, how about doing something positive to help them. How about helping to build safe houses and organizations to help them carry the child to term in a safe, healthy environment? How about pushing for better legislation when it comes to adoption? How about reforming the current organizations in place that are supposed to help house unwanted children? Do you realize that there are thousands of children in this country that are supposed to be accounted for and in foster homes that have gone missing? Most of which are far too young to be run aways. What happened to them and why isn't anyone looking for them? My point is it is SO easy to point your finger and demand that something be changed on a level in which you have absolutely no responsibility. I just think that we should be doing something to help these women instead of just decreasing their options and vanishing silently into the night.

These are good points. Certainly there are people who are not prepared to have children. They need help. I don't think abortion is the solution though.

jeffreys
Dec 18th 2007, 08:54 PM
No, it's not hypocritical. Abortion is wrong whether I help those who are in crisis pregnancies or not.

Then we are only a "resounding gong, or a clanging cymbal."

If you or I know somebody who is in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and refuse to do everything possible to help her bring her baby to term, we are actually abetting an abortion - if that's the route she chooses.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 08:56 PM
One other point is that making abortion illegal will not stop it happening alltogether. It WILL drive a lot of people to underground clinics. Not saying it won't stop some mind, just not all.



Making murder and rape illegal has not stopped it from happening. Both are still illegal because they are wrong and a violation of human rights, just as abortion is.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 09:00 PM
If you or I know somebody who is in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and refuse to do everything possible to help her bring her baby to term, we are actually abetting an abortion - if that's the route she chooses.

At what point is the woman accountable for her own actions?

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 09:02 PM
We force people to adhere to a standard because we believe that standard is right. That's my whole point in bringing up other these other examples. It's not about saying everyone has to be a Christian; it's about saying this practice is morally wrong and should not be tolerated by our society. No one is imposing our faith on anyone else.

Also, our society absolutely sets standards for what you can do with your children. You can't just say "It's my child, I can do what I want with it."

Good points.

........

jeffreys
Dec 18th 2007, 09:04 PM
At what point is the woman accountable for her own actions?

At what point do we fail to be accountable - before God - to help those in need?

Matthew 25:41-45
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 09:04 PM
I do not know what OP means. If you are saying that it is irrelevant to take these women's rights away, but not give them an alternative I would say that is not fair. I understand that your point is to protect the rights of the unborn, but you are basically saying that you are OK with infringing on the rights one group to protect another.

You are going to have to show me how killing an unborn child is a right. There is no imposition on rights where there was no right to begin with.

Fenris
Dec 18th 2007, 09:12 PM
I would not want abortion made illegal if it didn't make exceptions for rape, incest, or the life of the mother.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 09:14 PM
At what point do we fail to be accountable - before God - to help those in need?

Matthew 25:41-45

I never said we shouldn't help those in need. I said we SHOULD help those in need. Let me be very clear on that.

But as I am trying to point out...our help or lack thereof has no bearing on whether abortion is wrong or not. It is wrong, period. And there is nothing wrong with shouting that from the top of my lungs. I am not a hypocrite for calling a spade a spade.

One problem with our society is that we have taken the murder of unborn children and whitewashed it and called it simply a choice a pregnant woman makes. Let's stop hiding behind the politcally correct lines and call abortion what it is....murder.

teddyv
Dec 18th 2007, 09:18 PM
You are going to have to show me how killing an unborn child is a right. There is no imposition on rights where there was no right to begin with.

To clarify are you suggesting human legal rights (as in Bill of Rights or Charter of Rights).

If so we come back to the definition of what is alive and therefore entitled to protection under the rights conferred to an individual. Until society, through whatever means, defines life as beginning at conception, then no rights are a legally there for a fetus and it is "legally" not murder (despite what we as Christians believe).

We need to change the opinions of society at large that life begins at conception, then full protection of our laws and rights would be conferred to the unborn. Should this eventually happen, we then must be fully prepared to back up those who are put into the position of unwanted pregnancy.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 09:19 PM
I would not want abortion made illegal if it didn't make exceptions for rape, incest, or the life of the mother.

Perhaps a topic for another thread? One I will probably come to my senses and stay out of!

Matthew
Dec 18th 2007, 09:20 PM
For what its worth.

I think that America is a democracy, set up with systems to create laws. To overturn or suspend those laws for ANY reason be it abortion, national security or spelling reform is dangerous!

The debate over whether abortion is moral is not relevant to this issue in my view. Its about whether one can overturn a law because we don;t like it. For any reason.

One other point is that making abortion illegal will not stop it happening alltogether. It WILL drive a lot of people to underground clinics. Not saying it won't stop some mind, just not all.

Blessings to all

It's interesting that you bring this up, because the situation is actually quite the opposite. It was Roe v. Wade that overturned abortion laws. The Court did so because they found a right of privacy in the Constitution. We're not talking right of privacy like the cops can't bust into your home, as in the Fourth Amendment. We're talking right of privacy that extends to terminating pregnancies.

Now you may be saying, I don't recall ever seeing anything like that in the Constitution. Well probably because the Court said it isn't expressly there. You have to look in the "penumbras" (i.e. shadows). It's kinda in the First, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments. They end up saying we think it's in the Fourteenth Amendment, the district court thinks it's in the Ninth Amendment. Wherever it's at it's a broad enough to prevent states from making laws against abortion.

teddyv
Dec 18th 2007, 09:20 PM
You are going to have to show me how killing an unborn child is a right. There is no imposition on rights where there was no right to begin with.

Sorry Whispering Grace, I probably should have quoted I<3Jesus, not you.

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 09:23 PM
I just read this sentiment in someone's signature line and it got me thinking. First of all I can acknowledge that abortion is a hot topic on both sides, but do we really want to start trying to push our beliefs on the secular world? What happens when that backfires and they start pushing back? What happens when they start pushing their beliefs on us? When they start taking away our rights? I am a Christian, but I do not support overturning Roe versus Wade. My spiritual beliefs should not govern what a non believer has the right to do or not to do. Once you start making statements like the one above, once you start pushing for laws based on your beliefs, you open a can of worms that none of us our ready to deal with. Thoughts?

So it should be OK for me to go and kill someone? I mean, murder is a moral thing. Didn't you hate it when someone was killed for stealing. But now you are saying we shouldn't prevent murder of an innocent child? :hmm:

Isn't that a little inconsistent?

If every someone deserves protecting, it is defenseless children.

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 09:31 PM
You are going to have to show me how killing an unborn child is a right. There is no imposition on rights where there was no right to begin with.

A woman has a right to do what she wants with her body. As it stands, a woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy. If she didn't, abortion would be illegal already.

WG - I think perhaps that this may be too passionate of a subject for you.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 09:31 PM
To clarify are you suggesting human legal rights (as in Bill of Rights or Charter of Rights).

If so we come back to the definition of what is alive and therefore entitled to protection under the rights conferred to an individual. Until society, through whatever means, defines life as beginning at conception, then no rights are a legally there for a fetus and it is "legally" not murder (despite what we as Christians believe).

We need to change the opinions of society at large that life begins at conception, then full protection of our laws and rights would be conferred to the unborn. Should this eventually happen, we then must be fully prepared to back up those who are put into the position of unwanted pregnancy.

If a pregnancy is not interrupted, the result is a fully functioning, fully autonomous human being. An embryo is fully alive, just in a different cycle of life that a 100 year old man is in. To separate the two as one being "alive" and one "not alive" is absurd. I was the same person when I was a 7 week embryo that I am now, just in a different cycle of the same life.

The whole "when does life begin" issue is just another smokescreen for the pro-abortion crowd.

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 09:35 PM
I would not want abortion made illegal if it didn't make exceptions for rape, incest, or the life of the mother.

I agree, Fenris. Abortion is not a black and white issue. There are many shades of gray. While I can agree that I think it is wrong, I am not going to force a woman who is impregnated through rape or incest to carry the child to term. You are sacrificing one individuals well being for another and last I checked none of us had the right to play God. I am curious to know what people think about a woman who is told that if she does not terminate her pregnancy she will die. Is that committing suicide? Will she go to hell for making the conscious decision to end her own life?

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 09:38 PM
So it should be OK for me to go and kill someone? I mean, murder is a moral thing. Didn't you hate it when someone was killed for stealing. But now you are saying we shouldn't prevent murder of an innocent child? :hmm:

Isn't that a little inconsistent?

If every someone deserves protecting, it is defenseless children.

Brother Mark - With the utmost respect I am going to decline to engage you in this topic. You have a tendency to, well complicate the complications. Every single thread that you get involved in tends to become a long winded tangent and you often selectively read. I really do not have the patience for that today.

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 09:40 PM
The point remains I<3Jesus. Why is it OK to put our morals on protecting thieves from being shot? But it is wrong to use our morals to protect unborn babies?

It's a simple question. Do you not think it a little inconsistent to support one but not the other?

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 09:40 PM
A woman has a right to do what she wants with her body.

A woman's right to do what she wants with her body ends when another life begins.

Kind of like how my right to do what I want with my fist ends where another person's face begins. It's the same concept. (I would never hit anyone....just making a point!) We don't have the right to do anything with our bodies if it results in the violation of rights of another person!

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 09:43 PM
A woman's right to do what she wants with her body ends when another life begins.

Kind of like how my right to do what I want with my fist ends where another person's face begins. It's the same concept. (I would never hit anyone....just making a point!) We don't have the right to do anything with our bodies if it results in the violation of rights of another person!)

Well the government currently disagrees with you on that one.

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 09:44 PM
Well the government currently disagrees with you on that one.

Kind of like killing thieves. Doesn't make it right though, does it? ;)

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 09:45 PM
Mark - You can bait me all you want. If anyone else had asked the question I would gladly answer. I am not willing to let this thread get completely tangential for the sake of you trying to prove yourself "right."

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 09:46 PM
Well the government currently disagrees with you on that one.

Hopefully not for long.

That is why I will never cast a vote for a pro-abortion candidate.

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 09:49 PM
I think it entirely a fair argument to point out that in the first post, it was mentioned that we should not put our morals on the rest of the nation by outlawing abortion. Yet, the OP argued in another thread that it should be wrong to kill a thief when the law doesn't say it is wrong.

It's OK if you don't want to answer my questions. I'll still ask them and continue to point stuff out. It seems the arguments are inconsistent.
I think it entirely a fair thing to point out an inconsistent argument, especially when the lives of babies are on the line.

Seeker of truth
Dec 18th 2007, 09:59 PM
Kind of like killing thieves. Doesn't make it right though, does it? ;)

Pretty much huh.

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 10:00 PM
Oh Seeker, do not encourage him ;)

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 10:06 PM
Pretty much huh.

Perhaps a cut and paste from that thread would be appropriate here. What do you think?

Seeker of truth
Dec 18th 2007, 10:08 PM
Before I post my feelings I want to make it clear I have nothing but compassion for any woman who aborted only to regret her decision.

The only reason I can ever see to terminate a pregnancy is due to a tubular pregnancy. The fetus has no chance for survival in this occurance and both may die if untreated.

Abortion is murder...period! An innocent life is terminated because it's not convenient for it to be born. Every time we have sexu@l relations there is a chance of pregnancy. If we do not want a child perhaps we should abstain.

Yes, this may be harsh but so is the slaughter of innocent life.

Seeker of truth
Dec 18th 2007, 10:09 PM
Oh Seeker, do not encourage him ;)

But I agree with him :D

You know I love you I <3 Jesus :kiss:

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 10:12 PM
So you are attempting to hijack and derail the thread on purpose? Reported.

Nope. Just make some valid points about the inconsistencies. Would love to engage you on it. How is it not inconsistent? They seem very similar to me.

Why can we say it is morally wrong to kill a thief, and that it should be outlawed. But then turn around and say we can't outlaw abortions? If it is murder to kill a thief, why is it not murder to kill an innocent baby?

It's very related to the OP.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 10:20 PM
Personally, I wish you'd answer Mark's questions. If you believe in the right to life of a thief, why not an innocent baby? Why protect the lives of the guilty and not the innocent?

Seeker of truth
Dec 18th 2007, 10:25 PM
I just read this sentiment in someone's signature line and it got me thinking. First of all I can acknowledge that abortion is a hot topic on both sides, but do we really want to start trying to push our beliefs on the secular world? What happens when that backfires and they start pushing back? What happens when they start pushing their beliefs on us? When they start taking away our rights? I am a Christian, but I do not support overturning Roe versus Wade. My spiritual beliefs should not govern what a non believer has the right to do or not to do. Once you start making statements like the one above, once you start pushing for laws based on your beliefs, you open a can of worms that none of us our ready to deal with. Thoughts?

It's not a question of pushing our beliefs on the secular world. It's standing up for what is right. We must take a stand. Innocents are being slaughtered by the millions and it's perfectly legal :cry:

I would love to see Roe vs. Wade overturned. While nothing will completely stop abortion at least we are standing up for the innocents.

FaithfulSheep
Dec 18th 2007, 10:32 PM
Personally, I wish you'd answer Mark's questions. If you believe in the right to life of a thief, why not an innocent baby? Why protect the lives of the guilty and not the innocent?

Brother Mark has brought forth a good question. Even criminals are given more protection than the innocent unborn children. It really shouldn't be this way. As Whispering Grace mentioned, perhaps in the future to come we will have a government that will do something about this. It just isn't right, IMO.

Seeker of truth
Dec 18th 2007, 11:02 PM
Jess - That is not what he is saying. You would have to read the other thread to understand (if it is even possible) where he is coming from. Apples and oranges my dear.

Actually hon I see his point.

How can one call killing a thief wrong yet justify the murder of an innocent?

Both are wrong.

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 11:07 PM
Actually hon I see his point.

How can one call killing a thief wrong yet justify the murder of an innocent?

Both are wrong.

I did not justify the murder of an innocent. I said that I believe there are exceptions to the rule (rape, incest, death to the mother), but I did not advocate abortion. I said it is wrong for people to attempt to change laws based on the beliefs of a fraction of the whole. In this case I cited Christianity, but I would disagree if Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. tried to do something similar.

Seeker of truth
Dec 18th 2007, 11:09 PM
I did not justify the murder of an innocent. I said that I believe there are exceptions to the rule (rape, incest, death to the mother), but I did not advocate abortion. I said it is wrong for people to attempt to change laws based on the beliefs of a fraction of the whole. In this case I cited Christianity, but I would disagree if Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. tried to do something similar.

I never said you did. I am saying that is the kind of logic frequently used in abortion debates.

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 11:10 PM
I never said you did. I am saying that is the kind of logic frequently used in abortion debates.

Ah OK. Like I said earlier, it is really not about skirting the question, but the person who asked it. We could be here all night correcting his interpretations of what it is I am trying to plainly say ;)

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2007, 11:35 PM
I said it is wrong for people to attempt to change laws based on the beliefs of a fraction of the whole.

So it doesn't matter if the law is morally reprehensible? Majority rules?

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 11:46 PM
Let's not make this personal. We can each present a case without making personal accusations. ;)

I<3Jesus
Dec 18th 2007, 11:56 PM
Let's not make this personal. We can each present a case without making personal accusations. ;)

Where is there a personal accusation? It is clear, by the comments that WG wrote in this thread, that he or she is taking things way too personally. I find it best to skip threads that make me upset. Edited to add: I had to learn it the hard way too.

Seeker of truth
Dec 18th 2007, 11:59 PM
Where is there a personal accusation? It is clear, by the comments that WG wrote in this thread, that he or she is taking things way too personally. I find it best to skip threads that make me upset.

Sweetie, I have known WG for years and I have a deep respect for her. She stands up for her beliefs and does not back down when doing so.

The slaughter of innocent life is a hot button topic fo rmany of us. Personally I am glad she stands behind her convictions.

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 12:13 AM
Word. I see nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe. I suppose people could learn to do it a little more nicely. I know I have been trying.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 12:45 AM
I never said we shouldn't help those in need. I said we SHOULD help those in need. Let me be very clear on that.

And how do you propose to do that?

Making abortion illegal (which, by the way, I believe should be done) is not going to help those in need - those in the midst of crisis pregnancies.

What, besides protesting outside of Planned Parenthood, should Christians be doing? :hmm:

Seeker of truth
Dec 19th 2007, 01:25 AM
And how do you propose to do that?

Making abortion illegal (which, by the way, I believe should be done) is not going to help those in need - those in the midst of crisis pregnancies.

What, besides protesting outside of Planned Parenthood, should Christians be doing? :hmm:

"Crisis" pregnancy, as you call it, is no excuse to kill an innocent life. It is never the fault of the baby.

Christians should be standing up for what is right. For what Jesus would stand up for. Would that be the killing of innocent babies or would that be in educating women to what abortion actually is and as to their other options?

The Parson
Dec 19th 2007, 02:17 AM
Interestingly enough though, I have a hard time understanding why there is such a delima over this topic. To take an innocent life is murder and as such what the commandment was addressing. And to abort a life simply because of a crime makes it become two wrongs making a right. I don't think so.

Ex:20:13: Thou shalt not kill.
Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

A government, who is the power ordained by the Lord God, should they take the life of a murderer? Well, if the law says a murderer is to be put to death, that power was ordained by God.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

It looks plain and simple to me.

And by the way:::::: All personal arugement and insinuating in this thread ends now. If there is a concern, please address it in the Chat to the Moderators, not here.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 02:23 AM
"Crisis" pregnancy, as you call it, is no excuse to kill an innocent life. It is never the fault of the baby.

Christians should be standing up for what is right. For what Jesus would stand up for. Would that be the killing of innocent babies or would that be in educating women to what abortion actually is and as to their other options?

I agree that a "crisis" pregnancy is no excuse for taking an innocent life - and have repeatedly said so.

But here's the problem... There will ALWAYS be women in crisis pregnancies, regardless of whether abortion is legal or illegal. It's an unfortunate truth.

So what are we, the hands and feet of Jesus, going to do about it? We MUST do more than talk! Protesting outside Planned Parenthood clinics is not saving many (if any) pre-born babies. There has to be more that we can do - and must do.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 02:25 AM
Interestingly enough though, I have a hard time understanding why there is such a delima over this topic. To take an innocent life is murder and as such what the commandment was addressing. And to abort a life simply because of a crime makes it become two wrongs making a right. I don't think so.

You're absolutely right! There should be absolutely no question at all.

Unfortunately, we don't live in that sort of a Utopia. It seems so clear to me that Christians have to get involved in Crisis Pregnancy Centers, in helping women in crisis pregnancies, etc. We can't do everything, but we have to do something.

The Parson
Dec 19th 2007, 02:33 AM
You're absolutely right! There should be absolutely no question at all.

Unfortunately, we don't live in that sort of a Utopia. It seems so clear to me that Christians have to get involved in Crisis Pregnancy Centers, in helping women in crisis pregnancies, etc. We can't do everything, but we have to do something.Even more unfortunate is that the worldly "I don't want to get involved" plague has entered the church. Closest I've ever came to jail was trying to reason with a woman wanting to kill her unborn baby. But unless we do try to reason with the ones consenting, the ones making these horrible laws, and the ones commiting, we are no different from the world with our complacency.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 02:45 AM
Even more unfortunate is that the worldly "I don't want to get involved" plague has entered the church. Closest I've ever came to jail was trying to reason with a woman wanting to kill her unborn baby. But unless we do try to reason with the ones consenting, the ones making these horrible laws, and the ones commiting, we are no different from the world with our complacency.

You're right again.

I guess one of the things that really disturbs me about this whole issue, is that so many people will give lip service to the wrongness of abortion. Unfortunately, that does virtually nothing to change anything, or make anything better, or save the lives of pre-born babies.

I find it personally frustrating too. There's so much that needs to be done, but it's overwhelming, and I'm not even sure where to begin. I've been involved in the establishing and funding of a Christian Pregnancy Center. But that's such a small drop in the bucket, and though we've likely saved the lives of dozens (perhaps hundreds?) of pre-born babies, there are countless millions we've not be able to help.

But we have to try.

The Parson
Dec 19th 2007, 02:49 AM
You're right again.

I guess one of the things that really disturbs me about this whole issue, is that so many people will give lip service to the wrongness of abortion. Unfortunately, that does virtually nothing to change anything, or make anything better, or save the lives of pre-born babies.

I find it personally frustrating too. There's so much that needs to be done, but it's overwhelming, and I'm not even sure where to begin. I've been involved in the establishing and funding of a Christian Pregnancy Center. But that's such a small drop in the bucket, and though we've likely saved the lives of dozens (perhaps hundreds?) of pre-born babies, there are countless millions we've not be able to help.

But we have to try.Don't beat yourself up over that one my friend. If but one were saved it was worth the effort.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 02:56 AM
Don't beat yourself up over that one my friend. If but one were saved it was worth the effort.

This is true. But I can't help but think of what could happen if every Christian family, in the United States, got personally involved in ministering to girls/women involved in crisis pregnancies. Not to condemn them for mistakes already made, but to try to love and help them through the process - to show them Jesus, and to do everything possible to help bring the pre-born baby to term.

The effects would make all the protesting outside Planned Parenthood pale in comparison.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Christians have to be involved in ministry on a grass-roots level. We have to be willing to roll up our sleeves and get involved in the lives of sinful humanity. That's what Jesus did.

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 04:05 AM
Great points boys! I love Jeffreys because you always find a way to eloquently word what I am feeling, but have a hard time getting across.

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 04:11 AM
I just noticed that no one addressed what I said earlier:


I am curious to know what people think about a woman who is told that if she does not terminate her pregnancy she will die. Is that committing suicide? Will she go to hell for making the conscious decision to end her own life?

Thoughts?

The Parson
Dec 19th 2007, 04:17 AM
I just noticed that no one addressed what I said earlier:



Thoughts?My friend, there is a major difference in giving your life and taking it.

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 04:30 AM
OK, what if she is a single mother of several other kids who rely on her to take care of them?

Edited to add: I am not trying to be difficult, I am just trying to point out that life is not black or white.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 04:48 AM
OK, what if she is a single mother of several other kids who rely on her to take care of them?

Edited to add: I am not trying to be difficult, I am just trying to point out that life is not black or white.
You're right. Life is not always black & white. Oh that it were!

Part of the problem with the "what if" questions that are always floated around, is that there are equal and opposite "what if" questions. For instance, why is said single mother - who has several other kids who rely on her - out getting pregnant?

Considering that 95+% of all abortions are for the sake of convenience, perhaps we should address those first - and with bluntness. Then, and only then, should we start looking at the "what ifs", and taking them on a case-by-case individual basis.

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 04:50 AM
You're right. Life is not always black & white. Oh that it were!

Part of the problem with the "what if" questions that are always floated around, is that there are equal and opposite "what if" questions. For instance, why is said single mother - who has several other kids who rely on her - out getting pregnant?

Considering that 95+% of all abortions are for the sake of convenience, perhaps we should address those first - and with bluntness. Then, and only then, should we start looking at the "what ifs", and taking them on a case-by-case individual basis.

I knew someone would bring that up ;) I guess I just have a hard time with issues like this because I have been in the trenches with the people who felt they had no other options.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 04:56 AM
I knew someone would bring that up ;) I guess I just have a hard time with issues like this because I have been in the trenches with the people who felt they had no other options.

Right.

I just don't think we can ignore the 95%, while debating the minute percentage.

Let's propose that the 95+% of abortions - those for convenience sake - are outlawed. Then Christians can, both individually and as churches, take the 5% under our wings and do whatever is necessary to love them through the process. Deal? :)

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 05:11 AM
Right.

I just don't think we can ignore the 95%, while debating the minute percentage.

Let's propose that the 95+% of abortions - those for convenience sake - are outlawed. Then Christians can, both individually and as churches, take the 5% under our wings and do whatever is necessary to love them through the process. Deal? :)

Yeah, but you know that won't actually happen.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 05:16 AM
Yeah, but you know that won't actually happen.

I know it won't, but it should!

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 05:19 AM
I know it won't, but it should!

I can whole heartedly agree with that. BTW, where did you get the 95% statistic?

ddmor
Dec 19th 2007, 05:41 AM
I've been in the trenches, too - infact I was one who was given to feel that I had no other choice - which is really ironic since abortion is supposed to give us choices?

I have also talked to many others who have had abortions who also said that the only 'choice' they were provided with was abortion.

It seems very wrong to get counseling from the very organization that will profit from the counsel. Until women are given all the facts, and shown all their choices in a counseling session before the fact - I will not stop trying to educate what abortion does.

Actually - truthfully I will probably continue to tell people that abortion not only kills the babies, but it also kills something in the mothers that have them. :)

Thanks for letting me have a place to get on my soap box again.

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 05:47 AM
I've been in the trenches, too - infact I was one who was given to feel that I had no other choice - which is really ironic since abortion is supposed to give us choices?

I have also talked to many others who have had abortions who also said that the only 'choice' they were provided with was abortion.

It seems very wrong to get counseling from the very organization that will profit from the counsel. Until women are given all the facts, and shown all their choices in a counseling session before the fact - I will not stop trying to educate what abortion does.

Actually - truthfully I will probably continue to tell people that abortion not only kills the babies, but it also kills something in the mothers that have them. :)

Thanks for letting me have a place to get on my soap box again.

Great post hon! I am sorry you felt that you had no other options. This is exactly why Christians need to do more than just picket clinics and cry for change.

ddlewis86
Dec 19th 2007, 07:29 AM
I just read this sentiment in someone's signature line and it got me thinking. First of all I can acknowledge that abortion is a hot topic on both sides, but do we really want to start trying to push our beliefs on the secular world? What happens when that backfires and they start pushing back? What happens when they start pushing their beliefs on us? When they start taking away our rights? I am a Christian, but I do not support overturning Roe versus Wade. My spiritual beliefs should not govern what a non believer has the right to do or not to do. Once you start making statements like the one above, once you start pushing for laws based on your beliefs, you open a can of worms that none of us our ready to deal with. Thoughts?

It's not about Christians forcing beliefs on a secular society, it's about the fact that the Constitution does not give a woman the right to have an abortion. I keep trying to find where it says that women have the right to kill their unborn children but I have yet to find it.

Besides, overturning Roe V Wade will allow the individual states to decide.

Just like it should be.

Whispering Grace
Dec 19th 2007, 01:44 PM
WG - I really think you should just skip this thread. You seem to get far too worked up.

With all due respect, all I am doing is addressing posts. I have never directed anything at anyone personally. And I can't find where I have been disrespectful toward anyone.

I hate to think there are people who don't get worked up about the lives of millions of innocent babies.


That being said, moral reprehensibility is a matter of perspective. What you may find reprehensible the next person may not.

Let me ask you a question. With the direction this country is headed morally, what would you think if the majority decided statutory rape was a-ok and changed the laws to permit it. Would you be okay with a "majority rules" law in this case?

As I said, when rights are being violated (rights that are plainly stated in documents this country claims to adhere to), majority means nothing.


You would be screaming bloody murder if any other faith was trying to limit your options based on their moral barometer.

Actually, I am screaming "bloody murder" now (that was an unfortunate choice of phrasing).

Since when did murder become an option in this country?

Whispering Grace
Dec 19th 2007, 01:56 PM
And how do you propose to do that?

What, besides protesting outside of Planned Parenthood, should Christians be doing? :hmm:

One of the first and best things we could do is shut down every Planned Parenthood. It is truly one of the most subversive and evil organizations in this country.


Making abortion illegal (which, by the way, I believe should be done) is not going to help those in need - those in the midst of crisis pregnancies.

The purpose of making abortion illegal is not to meet the needs of the mother. The purpose of making abortion illegal is to protect the lives of defenseless babies.

There are many pro-life groups Christians could be supporting. There are also Crisis Pregnancy Centers in most major cities (The Fort Worth Pregnancy Center is absolutely wonderful....not only do they save babies, they have lead numerous women to the Lord).

I will say, however, that our potential inability to solve the problem of what to do with the numerous pregnant moms and their babies is NOT a justification for keeping abortion legal.

Our prison system is in crisis right now due to overcrowding and lack of sufficient prisons. Does that mean we should make certain crimes legal to alleviate the problem?

ProjectPeter
Dec 19th 2007, 01:57 PM
With all due respect, all I am doing is addressing posts. I have never directed anything at anyone personally. And I can't find where I have been disrespectful toward anyone.

I hate to think there are people who don't get worked up about the lives of millions of innocent babies.



Let me ask you a question. With the direction this country is headed morally, what would you think if the majority decided statutory rape was a-ok and changed the laws to permit it. Would you be okay with a "majority rules" law in this case?

As I said, when rights are being violated (rights that are plainly stated in documents this country claims to adhere to), majority means nothing.



Actually, I am screaming "bloody murder" now (that was an unfortunate choice of phrasing).

Since when did murder become an option in this country?
It is a subject that gets folks worked up and I would dare say it should. I don't see how it could be otherwise really. What saddens me the most... that it doesn't get as many worked up and that should cause us all pause.

Whispering Grace
Dec 19th 2007, 02:01 PM
Unfortunately, we don't live in that sort of a Utopia. It seems so clear to me that Christians have to get involved in Crisis Pregnancy Centers, in helping women in crisis pregnancies, etc. We can't do everything, but we have to do something.

I don't disagree with this at all. If we truly love the lives of the children we want to save, we will get involved in some way.

Whispering Grace
Dec 19th 2007, 02:09 PM
I am curious to know what people think about a woman who is told that if she does not terminate her pregnancy she will die. Is that committing suicide? Will she go to hell for making the conscious decision to end her own life?


This really is not a difficult scenario to work out. If both lives truly are in jeopardy, the life of the mother would obviously take precedence over the unborn child. If the child has not reached viability, it would die anyway if the mother died, so there would be no reason not to save the life of the mother.

You have to understand that this scenario is extremely rare (and would most likely be used as a loophole for the abortionists if abortion were ever made illegal).

Whispering Grace
Dec 19th 2007, 02:20 PM
Besides, overturning Roe V Wade will allow the individual states to decide.

Just like it should be.

I have to disagree that it should be a states issue. This would just result in legalized abortion in the liberal states only and women in the conservative states crossing state lines to have their abortions.

If abortion is truly a human rights issue, it needs to be addressed on a federal level. A baby in Oregon should have the same right to life as a baby in Texas.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 03:17 PM
One of the first and best things we could do is shut down every Planned Parenthood. It is truly one of the most subversive and evil organizations in this country.

The purpose of making abortion illegal is not to meet the needs of the mother. The purpose of making abortion illegal is to protect the lives of defenseless babies.

There are many pro-life groups Christians could be supporting. There are also Crisis Pregnancy Centers in most major cities (The Fort Worth Pregnancy Center is absolutely wonderful....not only do they save babies, they have lead numerous women to the Lord).

I will say, however, that our potential inability to solve the problem of what to do with the numerous pregnant moms and their babies is NOT a justification for keeping abortion legal.

Our prison system is in crisis right now due to overcrowding and lack of sufficient prisons. Does that mean we should make certain crimes legal to alleviate the problem?

First of all, I'm interested to know how you propose we go about getting Planned Parenthood Clinics all shut down. I'm not talking theory, but a pragmatic step-by-step process. Also, do the people involved in Planned Parenthood have the same right to try to shut down churches?

Then, let's say we manage to shut down every Planned Parenthood Clinic in the country (which I do believe would be great!)... Does that mean there won't be abortions performed elsewhere? Hardly. Where there is a demand, there will always be a service supplied - legal or not.

The problem here is that, regardless of the legality or illegality of abortion, there will still be women in crisis pregnancies. There will always be women who are being pressured to get an abortion. There will always be women who are desperate and feel they have no other choice. Abortion is often a symptom, not the disease itself - and we need to start dealing with diseases rather than just throwing band-aids at symptoms.

This is not an excuse for abortion, but a calling attention to the reality of the situation. Too often we sit in our comfortable, middle-class suburban, white Christian homes and talk ideologies, while doing nothing on a grass-roots level. And though I am NOT referring to you here (please don't be offended by thinking that!), Christians who know a woman in a crisis pregnancy yet will not take her into their home & helping her bring the child to term have absolutely no right to condemn her if she gets an abortion. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they've actually abetted in the abortion!

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 05:03 PM
First of all, I'm interested to know how you propose we go about getting Planned Parenthood Clinics all shut down. I'm not talking theory, but a pragmatic step-by-step process. Also, do the people involved in Planned Parenthood have the same right to try to shut down churches?

Then, let's say we manage to shut down every Planned Parenthood Clinic in the country (which I do believe would be great!)... Does that mean there won't be abortions performed elsewhere? Hardly. Where there is a demand, there will always be a service supplied - legal or not.

The problem here is that, regardless of the legality or illegality of abortion, there will still be women in crisis pregnancies. There will always be women who are being pressured to get an abortion. There will always be women who are desperate and feel they have no other choice. Abortion is often a symptom, not the disease itself - and we need to start dealing with diseases rather than just throwing band-aids at symptoms.

This is not an excuse for abortion, but a calling attention to the reality of the situation. Too often we sit in our comfortable, middle-class suburban, white Christian homes and talk ideologies, while doing nothing on a grass-roots level. And though I am NOT referring to you here (please don't be offended by thinking that!), Christians who know a woman in a crisis pregnancy yet will not take her into their home & helping her bring the child to term have absolutely no right to condemn her if she gets an abortion. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they've actually abetted in the abortion!

Dude, I want to give you a bazillion reps for this post alone.

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2007, 05:07 PM
First of all, I'm interested to know how you propose we go about getting Planned Parenthood Clinics all shut down. I'm not talking theory, but a pragmatic step-by-step process. Also, do the people involved in Planned Parenthood have the same right to try to shut down churches?

Then, let's say we manage to shut down every Planned Parenthood Clinic in the country (which I do believe would be great!)... Does that mean there won't be abortions performed elsewhere? Hardly. Where there is a demand, there will always be a service supplied - legal or not.

The problem here is that, regardless of the legality or illegality of abortion, there will still be women in crisis pregnancies. There will always be women who are being pressured to get an abortion. There will always be women who are desperate and feel they have no other choice. Abortion is often a symptom, not the disease itself - and we need to start dealing with diseases rather than just throwing band-aids at symptoms.

This is not an excuse for abortion, but a calling attention to the reality of the situation. Too often we sit in our comfortable, middle-class suburban, white Christian homes and talk ideologies, while doing nothing on a grass-roots level. And though I am NOT referring to you here (please don't be offended by thinking that!), Christians who know a woman in a crisis pregnancy yet will not take her into their home & helping her bring the child to term have absolutely no right to condemn her if she gets an abortion. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they've actually abetted in the abortion!

Of course murder is a symptom. No question about that. However, we don't let others murder and murder until we fix the root cause. We also know the root cause is man's fallen nature. It won't ever be fixed outside of Christ.

While I am all for dealing with this issue on a grass roots level, let us not forget how evil this sin really is. It is a very bad thing that should be outlawed. Now, we may not be able to shut down all the planned parenthood places. But nothing wrong with trying.

Just as we should not ignore how environment can breed murders, neither should we ignore how environment can breed abortionist. But let's not give up protecting the victims simply because we understand supply and demand.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 05:37 PM
Of course murder is a symptom. No question about that. However, we don't let others murder and murder until we fix the root cause. We also know the root cause is man's fallen nature. It won't ever be fixed outside of Christ.

While I am all for dealing with this issue on a grass roots level, let us not forget how evil this sin really is. It is a very bad thing that should be outlawed. Now, we may not be able to shut down all the planned parenthood places. But nothing wrong with trying.

Just as we should not ignore how environment can breed murders, neither should we ignore how environment can breed abortionist. But let's not give up protecting the victims simply because we understand supply and demand.

I agree - which is why I have repeatedly said, in this thread, that abortion should be made illegal. Nowhere will anybody see that I have written anything even remotely close to "abortion must be kept safe and legal".

In addition, however, Christians MUST deal with the FACT that there will always be people seeking abortions. And just making it illegal will not stop that, anymore than marijuana being illegal keeps people from smoking it.

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2007, 05:58 PM
I agree - which is why I have repeatedly said, in this thread, that abortion should be made illegal. Nowhere will anybody see that I have written anything even remotely close to "abortion must be kept safe and legal".

In addition, however, Christians MUST deal with the FACT that there will always be people seeking abortions. And just making it illegal will not stop that, anymore than marijuana being illegal keeps people from smoking it.

Absolutely! As a matter of fact, I would say that given the current political climate, we would be far better off focusing on more ministry towards women and needy children than the politics of changing the law. (Not saying we should ignore the process of getting the law changed though.)

And of course, murder is illegal, yet murder still occurs. Outlawing abortion won't make it go away even if it does limit it.

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 06:32 PM
OK, so the majority of the people in this thread keep saying that abortion is murder (not that I am disagreeing, I am just trying to get something straight) and murder is against the law, yet abortion is still legal. I am guessing that is because those who are pro choice have a different definition of life than the pro lifers. It basically comes down to whether or not you consider an embryo a child right?

A Seeker
Dec 19th 2007, 06:35 PM
Absolutely! As a matter of fact, I would say that given the current political climate, we would be far better off focusing on more ministry towards women and needy children than the politics of changing the law. (Not saying we should ignore the process of getting the law changed though.)

And of course, murder is illegal, yet murder still occurs. Outlawing abortion won't make it go away even if it does limit it.

Bro mark and jeffreys. Hero's of common sense in an emotive and difficult debate.

Its sometimes hard to see the real issues in amoungst all the outrage and declamatory shouts on this issue. Well done for getting to the nub.

Its good to hear.

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 08:16 PM
Absolutely! As a matter of fact, I would say that given the current political climate, we would be far better off focusing on more ministry towards women and needy children than the politics of changing the law. (Not saying we should ignore the process of getting the law changed though.)

And of course, murder is illegal, yet murder still occurs. Outlawing abortion won't make it go away even if it does limit it.

Right.

Now... here's one that's very interesting to me. Many people vehemently HATE George W Bush - and feel very justified in doing so. But look at who Bush appointed, and got confirmed, to the Supreme Court! If Roe v Wade is ever overturned - at the Supreme Court level - Pro-Life people darned well better be lining up to thank George W Bush!

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2007, 08:19 PM
Right.

Now... here's one that's very interesting to me. Many people vehemently HATE George W Bush - and feel very justified in doing so. But look at who Bush appointed, and got confirmed, to the Supreme Court! If Roe v Wade is ever overturned - at the Supreme Court level - Pro-Choice people darned well better be lining up to thank George W Bush!

You mean pro-life folks, right?

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 08:19 PM
OK, so the majority of the people in this thread keep saying that abortion is murder (not that I am disagreeing, I am just trying to get something straight) and murder is against the law, yet abortion is still legal. I am guessing that is because those who are pro choice have a different definition of life than the pro lifers. It basically comes down to whether or not you consider an embryo a child right?

You've hit something square on the head of the nail right there!

"Murder" is illegal - therefore, many pro-choice people will argue that abortion is not murder, because abortion is not illegal.

But that's just word play. It's like if I weighed 415 lbs, but insisted I wasn't "fat" - but just "heavy". Call it what we want, everybody knows what it is. Semantics can't cover over reality!

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 08:19 PM
Right.

Now... here's one that's very interesting to me. Many people vehemently HATE George W Bush - and feel very justified in doing so. But look at who Bush appointed, and got confirmed, to the Supreme Court! If Roe v Wade is ever overturned - at the Supreme Court level - Pro-Choice people darned well better be lining up to thank George W Bush!

I just do not like him because I think he is a terrible example of what a leader should be. I do not want my kids to think that partying your way through life yields positive results. The only way that works out is if mommy and daddy are affluent people of means.

The man can barely speak English, do you really think he is smart enough to run the country? Or even grasp the repercussions of his actions while in office? Bush is sort of like a Republican meat puppet ;) LOL!

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 08:20 PM
You mean pro-life folks, right?

D'Oh!

Must go back and quickly edit!
Must go back and quickly edit!

:lol:

jeffreys
Dec 19th 2007, 08:21 PM
I just do not like him because I think he is a terrible example of what a leader should be. I do not want my kids to think that partying your way through life yields positive results. The only way that works out is if mommy and daddy are affluent people of means.

The man can barely speak English, do you really think he is smart enough to run the country? Or even grasp the repercussions of his actions while in office? Bush is sort of like a Republican meat puppet ;) LOL!

Ehhh... topic for another thread! :)

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 08:21 PM
You've hit something square on the head of the nail right there!

"Murder" is illegal - therefore, many pro-choice people will argue that abortion is not murder, because abortion is not illegal.

But that's just word play. It's like if I weighed 415 lbs, but insisted I wasn't "fat" - but just "heavy". Call it what we want, everybody knows what it is. Semantics can't cover over reality!

That is an excellent way to put it. I guess I could understand people's confusion. Most people want cold, hard facts and if the medical community is not completely backing up the idea that an embryo is actually a life then I could see how they justify it. Most people live by sight alone.

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 08:23 PM
Ehhh... topic for another thread! :)

True, true ;) I am not making another thread though. I am tired of being controversial - LOL!

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2007, 08:23 PM
OK, so the majority of the people in this thread keep saying that abortion is murder (not that I am disagreeing, I am just trying to get something straight) and murder is against the law, yet abortion is still legal. I am guessing that is because those who are pro choice have a different definition of life than the pro lifers. It basically comes down to whether or not you consider an embryo a child right?

That is the crux of the issue. Where one falls in the debate is generally decided by this issue. But most pro-choice (or pro-abortion) won't argue when life begins from a view of science either.

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2007, 08:24 PM
That is an excellent way to put it. I guess I could understand people's confusion. Most people want cold, hard facts and if the medical community is not completely backing up the idea that an embryo is actually a life then I could see how they justify it. Most people live by sight alone.

Most will not deny that the embryo is alive. Most just simply will argue that it is not human life. In other words, the embryo is no more a human life than the liver is. But, there are major philisophical problems with that viewpoint.

I<3Jesus
Dec 19th 2007, 08:28 PM
I personally do not understand how anyone can believe that it is NOT a life.

Whispering Grace
Dec 19th 2007, 10:58 PM
First of all, I'm interested to know how you propose we go about getting Planned Parenthood Clinics all shut down. I'm not talking theory, but a pragmatic step-by-step process. Also, do the people involved in Planned Parenthood have the same right to try to shut down churches?

Cutting government funding would be a good start.

Making abortion illegal would be another great step in closing them down. ;)

And I would say that Planned Parenthood is more than welcome to try to shut down churches when they start sacrificing babies.



Where there is a demand, there will always be a service supplied - legal or not.


Just as there are still rapes, thefts, assaults, etc.




Abortion is often a symptom, not the disease itself - and we need to start dealing with diseases rather than just throwing band-aids at symptoms.


Absolutely. This could be a whole thread in itself.


Too often we sit in our comfortable, middle-class suburban, white Christian homes and talk ideologies, while doing nothing on a grass-roots level.

As I said before, my action or lack thereof has no bearing on the morality of abortion. It is not wrong to speak out against the evil of abortion, because that is exactly what it is...evil.


Christians who know a woman in a crisis pregnancy yet will not take her into their home & helping her bring the child to term have absolutely no right to condemn her if she gets an abortion.

I disagree. First of all, my husband would leave me and my children if I took a pregnant woman into our home. That simply is not an option for me.

And second, there is nothing wrong with speaking out against abortion. Somebody has to be a voice for those who cannot speak for themselves. And someone needs to make women aware of the horror of abortion. Places like Panned Parenthood often whitewash abortion and hide from their clients the gruesome reality of it.


In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they've actually abetted in the abortion!

I disagree.

Whispering Grace
Dec 19th 2007, 11:01 PM
I personally do not understand how anyone can believe that it is NOT a life.

It's called the Ostrich Approach....bury your head in the sand and exchange the term "baby" for "clump of cells".

ddmor
Dec 19th 2007, 11:53 PM
First of all, I'm interested to know how you propose we go about getting Planned Parenthood Clinics all shut down. I'm not talking theory, but a pragmatic step-by-step process

First of all - I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone is saying here. Crisis pregnancies have always been a problem - and since Roe V Wade we have seen a further cheapening of life. Some (in this thread) have pointed to a premature baby and asked if we would kill it (after it was born) - everyone here is horrified at the idea, but I've heard Scientists/Pro-abortionists in my state advocate such a position. Would that we lived in a perfect world and we could overturn Roe v Wade!! I'm just not seeing it happen anytime soon, and we still have the problem of crisis pregnancies.

I've been trying to get my legislators to see the dichotomy of Abortion Mills 'counseling' women - when they're profiting from the arrangement. And what about the fact that this is the only operation in the country that isn't regulated at all? Women die in these places because of the lack of regulation! Abortion is so protected that here in my state you won't find m/any doctors doing them - anyone in the office can be trained to use the machine.

If this nation would address just those things, it would help many lives. But again ... when we bring these things up - it's an attack on a woman's rights - and all dialog goes out the window - it's no wonder many won't back down from wanting to overturn Roe V. Wade, when we can't even get the opposition to even talk about the dreaded 'C' word (compromise).

Actually - both sides have a problem with that word. ;)

jeffreys
Dec 20th 2007, 12:10 AM
First of all - I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone is saying here. Crisis pregnancies have always been a problem - and since Roe V Wade we have seen a further cheapening of life. Some (in this thread) have pointed to a premature baby and asked if we would kill it (after it was born) - everyone here is horrified at the idea, but I've heard Scientists/Pro-abortionists in my state advocate such a position. Would that we lived in a perfect world and we could overturn Roe v Wade!! I'm just not seeing it happen anytime soon, and we still have the problem of crisis pregnancies.

I've been trying to get my legislators to see the dichotomy of Abortion Mills 'counseling' women - when they're profiting from the arrangement. And what about the fact that this is the only operation in the country that isn't regulated at all? Women die in these places because of the lack of regulation! Abortion is so protected that here in my state you won't find m/any doctors doing them - anyone in the office can be trained to use the machine.

If this nation would address just those things, it would help many lives. But again ... when we bring these things up - it's an attack on a woman's rights - and all dialog goes out the window - it's no wonder many won't back down from wanting to overturn Roe V. Wade, when we can't even get the opposition to even talk about the dreaded 'C' word (compromise).

Actually - both sides have a problem with that word. ;)

I'd be happy to compromise if it meant drastically cutting down on the number of abortions each year. I'd still be disgusted by the few abortions that happened, but elated by the many that didn't.

Make no mistake... Ideally, there would be absolutely no need for any compromise whatever. NO babies would be aborted. And that's the way it SHOULD be. But that's not the way it IS.

Whatever it takes!

I<3Jesus
Dec 20th 2007, 12:48 AM
First of all, my husband would leave me and my children if I took a pregnant woman into our home. That simply is not an option for me.

Why would your husband leave you for helping another person. Is he not a Christian?

Whispering Grace
Dec 20th 2007, 12:57 AM
Why would your husband leave you for helping another person. Is he not a Christian?

No, he is not.


..........

Seeker of truth
Dec 20th 2007, 01:15 AM
First of all, I'm interested to know how you propose we go about getting Planned Parenthood Clinics all shut down. I'm not talking theory, but a pragmatic step-by-step process. Also, do the people involved in Planned Parenthood have the same right to try to shut down churches?

Then, let's say we manage to shut down every Planned Parenthood Clinic in the country (which I do believe would be great!)... Does that mean there won't be abortions performed elsewhere? Hardly. Where there is a demand, there will always be a service supplied - legal or not.

The problem here is that, regardless of the legality or illegality of abortion, there will still be women in crisis pregnancies. There will always be women who are being pressured to get an abortion. There will always be women who are desperate and feel they have no other choice. Abortion is often a symptom, not the disease itself - and we need to start dealing with diseases rather than just throwing band-aids at symptoms.

This is not an excuse for abortion, but a calling attention to the reality of the situation. Too often we sit in our comfortable, middle-class suburban, white Christian homes and talk ideologies, while doing nothing on a grass-roots level. And though I am NOT referring to you here (please don't be offended by thinking that!), Christians who know a woman in a crisis pregnancy yet will not take her into their home & helping her bring the child to term have absolutely no right to condemn her if she gets an abortion. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they've actually abetted in the abortion!

I'd like to address this statement. All too often abortion is a morals issue. I know women who are honestly not bothered by having an abortion and say they will do it again if necessary. They lack moral fiber. I come to that conclusion as they can kill an innocent life and think nothing of it. Taking them into my home may show them I care but it will not stop them from becomming pregnant again and having an abortion then. And then there is the fact that I can not afford to support another person. And with Marion taking a stranger into my home would not work.

Now I am more than willing to do what I can to help them. Pray for them, witness to them, take them to appointments, listen to them, help them find legal assistance for adoption, etc. The bottom line is unless they care nothing I can do will stop an abortion.

Some people only God can reach and unless they listen to Him they are not hearing what He is saying to them.

Brother Mark
Dec 20th 2007, 03:08 AM
I'd be happy to compromise if it meant drastically cutting down on the number of abortions each year. I'd still be disgusted by the few abortions that happened, but elated by the many that didn't.

Make no mistake... Ideally, there would be absolutely no need for any compromise whatever. NO babies would be aborted. And that's the way it SHOULD be. But that's not the way it IS.

Whatever it takes!

Yep. I will compromise today, to limit abortions. But the ultimate plan doesn't change. Once we outlaw a few, we go to the next step. We work this way until we can outlaw the practice. This is a pragmatic approach.

My prayer... one day, in America, we will look back on our past and how we enabled and supported abortions, the same way we look back on our past and how we enabled and supported slavery, with much shame and regret.

jeffreys
Dec 20th 2007, 03:15 AM
I'd like to address this statement. All too often abortion is a morals issue. I know women who are honestly not bothered by having an abortion and say they will do it again if necessary. They lack moral fiber. I come to that conclusion as they can kill an innocent life and think nothing of it. Taking them into my home may show them I care but it will not stop them from becomming pregnant again and having an abortion then. And then there is the fact that I can not afford to support another person. And with Marion taking a stranger into my home would not work.

Now I am more than willing to do what I can to help them. Pray for them, witness to them, take them to appointments, listen to them, help them find legal assistance for adoption, etc. The bottom line is unless they care nothing I can do will stop an abortion.

Some people only God can reach and unless they listen to Him they are not hearing what He is saying to them.

You're right.

My point is that Christians MUST do more than just protest abortion. If we're actually going to make a difference, we need to do what Jesus did - which is, get involved personally. I know that we can't fix everybody, but we can help some. And I know that there are immoral women (as well as men, obviously) who care nothing about illicit sex or life, but there are also women who are struggling with the decision, and may very well choose life if somebody helped them in that direction.

jeffreys
Dec 20th 2007, 03:16 AM
Yep. I will compromise today, to limit abortions. But the ultimate plan doesn't change. Once we outlaw a few, we go to the next step. We work this way until we can outlaw the practice. This is a pragmatic approach.

My prayer... one day, in America, we will look back on our past and how we enabled and supported abortions, the same way we look back on our past and how we enabled and supported slavery, with much shame and regret.

Exactly. When we take the "all or nothing" approach, we often end up with nothing. So let's take baby steps, if that's what is necessary!

Brother Mark
Dec 20th 2007, 03:17 AM
You're right.

My point is that Christians MUST do more than just protest abortion. If we're actually going to make a difference, we need to do what Jesus did - which is, get involved personally. I know that we can't fix everybody, but we can help some. And I know that there are immoral women (as well as men, obviously) who care nothing about illicit sex or life, but there are also women who are struggling with the decision, and may very well choose life if somebody helped them in that direction.

As a body, yes. But each person in the body responds differently and may have a different assignment from the Lord.

MLC
Dec 20th 2007, 11:39 PM
I am not sure if someone has made this point already, since this topic has many post and I can't read them all.

Using this thread's originator's logic, we should have let the holocaust happen, and that is just one example. In the Holocaust they murdered Jews, with abortion they murder babies. The Nazis saw killing Jews as Social Darwinism, and therefore it was alright. We forced our morals on them. Was that wrong? The US has murdered more humans than the Nazis. That is sad, and that is my nation. I will do what is right and I am in favor of ending abortion in all circumstances, though I doubt that will ever happen in America.

I<3Jesus
Dec 21st 2007, 12:16 AM
I am not sure if someone has made this point already, since this topic has many post and I can't read them all.

Using this thread's originator's logic, we should have let the holocaust happen, and that is just one example. In the Holocaust they murdered Jews, with abortion they murder babies. The Nazis saw killing Jews as Social Darwinism, and therefore it was alright. We forced our morals on them. Was that wrong? The US has murdered more humans than the Nazis. That is sad, and that is my nation. I will do what is right and I am in favor of ending abortion in all circumstances, though I doubt that will ever happen in America.

Do not put words in my mouth, that is a ridiculous comparison. So now we are equating women who have abortions to nazis? Fail.

MLC
Dec 21st 2007, 01:59 AM
The only difference is the women are usually far more ignorant of their crimes.

Also, I never put words in your mouth, I only followed your train of logic to point out what I see as the flaw. In no way do I think you were against stopping the holocaust. I'll elaborate if you would like, but killing an unborn baby is murder, is it not? Also, in what way is it a ridiculous comparison? Murder is not relative, it is an absolute, and it is wrong.

Seeker of truth
Dec 21st 2007, 02:13 AM
The only difference is the women are usually far more ignorant of their crimes.

Also, I never put words in your mouth, I only followed your train of logic to point out what I see as the flaw. In no way do I think you were against stopping the holocaust. I'll elaborate if you would like, but killing an unborn baby is murder, is it not? Also, in what way is it a ridiculous comparison? Murder is not relative, it is an absolute, and it is wrong.

Oh my my :hmm:

Some women who abort may be immoral and cold hearted. There are many women who abort due to lack of information or desperation. Comparing them to nazis is so wrong. How many women have been guilt ridden to the point of near breakdown after aborting? Are they evil? They made a bad choice, they are far from evil.

Once they come to understand abortion is murder they repent, are forgiven and they never forget. For anyone to speak so harshly about them is insulting at best.

threebigrocks
Dec 21st 2007, 02:21 AM
The only difference is the women are usually far more ignorant of their crimes.

Also, I never put words in your mouth, I only followed your train of logic to point out what I see as the flaw. In no way do I think you were against stopping the holocaust. I'll elaborate if you would like, but killing an unborn baby is murder, is it not? Also, in what way is it a ridiculous comparison? Murder is not relative, it is an absolute, and it is wrong.

I would beg to differ that women are more ignorant of the moral crime of abortion. If you are pregnant and look towards abortion, they are looking to avoid a child. Their thoughts go to how to provide, how it will change their lives, embarassment, I'm sure there are many more reasons. They are not ignorant, they are without hope.

And, although morbid, I'd like to see where you got those statistics.

I<3Jesus
Dec 21st 2007, 02:38 AM
The only difference is the women are usually far more ignorant of their crimes.

Also, I never put words in your mouth, I only followed your train of logic to point out what I see as the flaw. In no way do I think you were against stopping the holocaust. I'll elaborate if you would like, but killing an unborn baby is murder, is it not? Also, in what way is it a ridiculous comparison? Murder is not relative, it is an absolute, and it is wrong.

You really are not going to win any female fans with that sentiment. I think it is a ridiculous comparison because the Nazi's were determined to exterminate anyone who did not fit their idea of a model person (Aryan). Women who feel that they have no other choice and whom probably follow the flawed logic that it is not truly a child cannot be compared to the systematic attempt to wipe an entire race of people off of the face of the earth.

Brother Mark
Dec 21st 2007, 02:52 AM
You really are not going to win any female fans with that sentiment. I think it is a ridiculous comparison because the Nazi's were determined to exterminate anyone who did not fit their idea of a model person (Aryan). Women who feel that they have no other choice and whom probably follow the flawed logic that it is not truly a child cannot be compared to the systematic attempt to wipe an entire race of people off of the face of the earth.

I tend to agree. However, the abortion political machine can be compared to nazism. However, I think many women who have abortions are victims of deception about the sin just as we all are guilty of deception of the sins we commit.

MLC
Dec 21st 2007, 03:10 AM
Some women who abort may be immoral and cold hearted. There are many women who abort due to lack of information or desperation. Comparing them to nazis is so wrong. How many women have been guilt ridden to the point of near breakdown after aborting? Are they evil? They made a bad choice, they are far from evil.

Once they come to understand abortion is murder they repent, are forgiven and they never forget. For anyone to speak so harshly about them is insulting at best.Seeker, you misinterpreted my post since that is what I said and I agree with you there. Many women are ignorant of their crimes, which should in one way be taken as in "due to lack of information or desperation", they do not understand the extent of their crime. They do not see it as murder. Also, I never compared the women to the Nazis, read my post again and there is no need to jump to such conclusions. All I said was that he said we shouldn't impose our morals by stopping abortion, but wasn't it our morals that made us think the Holocaust was wrong? We imposed our morals on them. I was simply saying that when it comes to murder we should impose our morals. Also, of course a woman can repent, just as a Nazi could. Everyone can repent.

Also, just in the US since Roe V. Wade, over 50 million children have been murdered. That far surpasses the holocaust and that is just in America since the 70's. Once again though, do not assume I am comparing a woman to Hitler.


I would beg to differ that women are more ignorant of the moral crime of abortion. If you are pregnant and look towards abortion, they are looking to avoid a child. Their thoughts go to how to provide, how it will change their lives, embarassment, I'm sure there are many more reasons. They are not ignorant, they are without hope.Threebigrocks, I would say each woman is different. Many simply do not believe a fetus is a life and do not think it is murder, (I don't think that is always the case though) while on the other hand Nazis knew that the they were killing and taking life. For the most part, I would say they are more ignorant of their crimes.


And, although morbid, I'd like to see where you got those statistics. Not that I'd doubt them, but maybeDo you mean the number about the US aborting more humans than the Nazis killed? That is true, around 43 million (or at leat in the 40's) people were killed in WW2, and not all of those were caused by the Germans. Over 50 million babies have been aborted in the US as I said before. That means the US has murdered more humans than the Nazis.


You really are not going to win any female fans with that sentiment. I think it is a ridiculous comparison because the Nazi's were determined to exterminate anyone who did not fit their idea of a model person (Aryan). Women who feel that they have no other choice and whom probably follow the flawed logic that it is not truly a child cannot be compared to the systematic attempt to wipe an entire race of people off of the face of the earth.
Ilovejesus, just because I compare them in one area does not mean I compare them in all areas. A cheetah can be compared to a Giraffe because they both have spots, but that doesn't mean the cheetah has a long neck.

My comparison was not of the women and the Nazis as unethical people, but I was comparing our actions towards their actions. I only pointed out the flaw in your logic, no offense intended. I was simply saying we have every right to impose our morals on others when it comes to murder; we did it in WW2 and we should do it again.

ddmor
Dec 21st 2007, 05:56 AM
Actually - I can see the analogy. Only in that many German's at the trial tried that logic for a defense of what they did. They said that they didn't break any laws (the laws in Germany were written so that they could exteminate the Jews). If you take that logic far enough, by taking that stance they were in effect saying 'our laws allowed it, therefore you are forcing your beliefs on us by saying we broke laws' ...

The OP asked the question: do we really want to start trying to push our beliefs on the secular world? Since it is lawful to abort a child, then by trying to change that law we are trying to push our beliefs on the secular world.

The answer is that at the German trials - the judge stated that the German's broke a higher law than man's law. Roe V Wade puts us in a position that we're not breaking man's law, but we are breaking a higher law.

Saved7
Dec 27th 2007, 08:53 PM
but do we really want to start trying to push our beliefs on the secular world? What happens when that backfires and they start pushing back? What happens when they start pushing their beliefs on us? When they start taking away our rights? ?


I'm afraid they already are my friend.:(

AlainaJ
Dec 27th 2007, 10:11 PM
I tend to agree. However, the abortion political machine can be compared to nazism. However, I think many women who have abortions are victims of deception about the sin just as we all are guilty of deception of the sins we commit.
That is why we need to save souls!!!!! tell people how to get saved.

Before I was saved I was pro-choice, liberal to the core.

But, man didn't change my mind God did. When I was born again, God changed my heart so that I could recognize sin. When I realized God created the life at conception and killing it is murder......my concept of abortion changed.

The way to stop abortions, is to win people to Christ....We as Chrsitians shouls be out there working with pregnancy centers and talking to women, trying to lead them to Jesus.

I have seen this many times...a changed heart...brings about changed behavior.

God Bless

Alaina

Tamararc
Dec 28th 2007, 04:19 AM
I think many assumptions about the ‘necessity’ of or ‘reason’ for abortion have been either taken for granted as ‘common sense’ or based on flimsy to non-existent research. I think the pro-abortion movement would like us to believe that abortion is a ‘natural’ choice or ‘natural’ right when it really is not.
God’s laws are written into our hearts, and this is proven in part by the tendency of most persons & countries to adopt the 10 commandments as a standard of living, regardless of religious leanings. :) It is proved in the fact that in a desperate situation, most pregnant women, if forced to choose between their own life and the life of their unborn child, will generally choose the unborn child. It is proved in the fact that most treasure the sanctity of life, and are appalled by murder in any form. It is proved also in the struggle of many, many women, both before and after the event, who have been shoved into abortions by aggressive clinics.
I think that most women faced with the possibility of abortion do not have the facts, and if they knew the facts, would choose not to. I think that the pro-life movement has in the past actually been a ‘stabilizing’ or ‘intermediary’ force between abortion clinics and the radicals who bomb them. I think the pro-life movement has been the primary educational source for many pregnant women seeking abortion, who were not aware of the truths and realities of the choice they were considering. I think the pro-life movement does more to truly protect the pregnant woman than does the pro-abortion movement, who’s primary claim is to ‘protect’ that woman’s rights.
The attachment is a more detailed & 'factually' supported response for some of these opinions.
Website used: http://www.abortionfacts.com/parsing_the_arguments/parsing_the_arguments.asp
Other websites:
http://realweb.ifastnet.com/stats.html
http://www.nrlc.org/news/2003/NRL01/randy.html
http://ehealthforum.com/health/topic49760.htmlreally