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alethos
Dec 18th 2007, 12:47 PM
This past Halloween a young boy came to my door trick or treating. He was wearing a Spiderman costume. I gave him a piece of candy, and before he turned around to walk away, he said, "you didn't recognize me did you?" Then he took his mask off, and I realized that it was 10 year old Brian who lived down the street from me. In the same way our Bible tells us that wolves will come in among us not sparing the flock. They will be wearing sheeps costumes which disguise the fact that under their costume they are actually wolves waiting to tear us to shreds. They are masters of disguise. They could be excellent charismatic speakers who get the attention of the simple minded who don't know the word of God well enough and these imposters deceive them.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

2 Pet 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

False teaching runs rampant today from among those who claim to be friends of the Bible. If we want to make sure we will not be deceived and torn apart, then we need to know the word of God.

uric3
Dec 18th 2007, 02:02 PM
:agree: and AMEN

Thats why there are so many denominations in the world today because people either

A.) don't know their Bibles and are deceived.
B.) They choose to go to a church that caters to their wants.

Example of B.) Guy doesn't like his wife any more because she can't cook very well. Church he currently goes to says you can't divorce and remarry for any reason other than adultly. So he goes and finds a church that allows divorce and remarriage and attends there instead.

2nd Tim 4:3,4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Thats what happens a lot today you want to find a church that tells you its ok to do X then you can find a church that allows X, regardless of what the Bible says.

Anyway great post.

jeffreys
Dec 18th 2007, 02:23 PM
:agree: and AMEN

Thats why there are so many denominations in the world today because people either

A.) don't know their Bibles and are deceived.
B.) They choose to go to a church that caters to their wants.

Example of B.) Guy doesn't like his wife any more because she can't cook very well. Church he currently goes to says you can't divorce and remarry for any reason other than adultly. So he goes and finds a church that allows divorce and remarriage and attends there instead.

2nd Tim 4:3,4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Thats what happens a lot today you want to find a church that tells you its ok to do X then you can find a church that allows X, regardless of what the Bible says.

Anyway great post.

I think there are more reasons than that, for why there are so many denominations...

- Sometimes it's a preference concerning the style of singing.
- Sometimes it's racial in background.

In both of these cases, I know of churches with identical doctrine, but the various churches don't worship together. No antagonism or ill will, but they're simply operating seperately.


On the other hand, you're extremely right, concerning our tendency to find a church we "like" or one that makes us "feel good"...

VerticalReality
Dec 18th 2007, 02:35 PM
Here's something to think about . . .

Is it about knowing the bible or about knowing God?

Some will immediately say if you know the bible you will know God. Not true. There is a reason that Paul says that knowledge will only puff up, and there is a reason why I know all sorts of folks who know a lot about the bible but do not display the fruit of the Spirit.

I mean you hear this line constantly . . .

Know the bible . . . know the bible . . . know the bible . . .

I think it's the opposite. Know God the Father through His Son and THEN you will truly know the bible. There is a reason why the early church could know God and His will for their lives without even having a bible.

I'm not trying to say that the bible isn't important. It is VERY important. I'm simply saying that there is a lot more to this thing that just "knowing the bible".

Friend of I AM
Dec 18th 2007, 02:50 PM
Here's something to think about . . .

Is it about knowing the bible or about knowing God?

Some will immediately say if you know the bible you will know God. Not true. There is a reason that Paul says that knowledge will only puff up, and there is a reason why I know all sorts of folks who know a lot about the bible but do not display the fruit of the Spirit.

I mean you hear this line constantly . . .

Know the bible . . . know the bible . . . know the bible . . .

I think it's the opposite. Know God the Father through His Son and THEN you will truly know the bible. There is a reason why the early church could know God and His will for their lives without even having a bible.

I'm not trying to say that the bible isn't important. It is VERY important. I'm simply saying that there is a lot more to this thing that just "knowing the bible".

Yup. Knowing Love. That's what it's all about. Hard thing is -- making sure we're walking in God's love or the worldly version of it. The hardest part about the Christian walk - is distinguishing who you're being lead by, the world or God. I constantly have to re-examine myself to make sure that I'm going about doing things for the right reasons - or specifically, to glorify God as opposed to myself. It's difficult, but in the end - I think God is well worth the wait.

Stephen

ServantofTruth
Dec 18th 2007, 02:56 PM
When i meet a humble christian who presents biblical understanding i don't mind being corrected. When i meet someone who says they are a christian and uses their 'worldly' knowledge - i wonder above 'wolves in sheeps clothing.' You can present the arguement YOU want to make and throw in a few bible verses, or present a biblical understanding and try to get it across in your own words. Good topic.:hug:

alethos
Dec 18th 2007, 05:00 PM
Here's something to think about . . .

Is it about knowing the bible or about knowing God?

Some will immediately say if you know the bible you will know God. Not true. There is a reason that Paul says that knowledge will only puff up, and there is a reason why I know all sorts of folks who know a lot about the bible but do not display the fruit of the Spirit.

I mean you hear this line constantly . . .

Know the bible . . . know the bible . . . know the bible . . .

I think it's the opposite. Know God the Father through His Son and THEN you will truly know the bible. There is a reason why the early church could know God and His will for their lives without even having a bible.

I'm not trying to say that the bible isn't important. It is VERY important. I'm simply saying that there is a lot more to this thing that just "knowing the bible".

But God has left us His word. That word is contained in the Bible. We cannot know what God has to say to us if we don't open the pages of the Bible. Oh sure, we can just go to a Church and hear the word preached, but we need to compare what is being said from the pulpit by what is written in the word of God. The Berean's of Acts 17:11 searched the Scriptures daily to see whether what was being said was so. Being the spirtual beings we are should make us hungry to dig into the word of God. If we don't dig into the word daily and get our spiritual food, then we will starve ourselves spiritually, and we can't afford to to that. One of the evidences of knowing God and having a personal relationship with Him is our desire to feed upon His word. A person who lacks a desire to feed upon the word of God may give evidence of malnutrition spirituality.
Most importantly we need His word in our heart so that we may not sin
Ps 119:11 I have hidden Your Word in my heart, that I might not sin against You.
His word guides us, and gives light to our path
Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And light unto my path.

VerticalReality
Dec 18th 2007, 05:08 PM
But God has left us His word. That word is contained in the Bible. We cannot know what God has to say to us if we don't open the pages of the Bible. Oh sure, we can just go to a Church and hear the word preached, but we need to compare what is being said from the pulpit by what is written in the word of God. The Berean's of Acts 17:11 searched the Scriptures daily to see whether what was being said was so. Being the spirtual beings we are should make us hungry to dig into the word of God. If we don't dig into the word daily and get our spiritual food, then we will starve ourselves spiritually, and we can't afford to to that. One of the evidences of knowing God and having a personal relationship with Him is our desire to feed upon His word. A person who lacks a desire to feed upon the word of God may give evidence of malnutrition spirituality.
Most importantly we need His word in our heart so that we may not sin
Ps 119:11 I have hidden Your Word in my heart, that I might not sin against You.
His word guides us, and gives light to our path
Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And light unto my path.

Oh, He's left us a whole lot more than just His word . . .



John 14:15-18
“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


Again, I'm not trying to discount the bible. I'm simply saying there is a lot more that He has provided for us than just that.

What would you do, alethos, if you did not have a bible?

Mograce2U
Dec 18th 2007, 06:31 PM
Oh, He's left us a whole lot more than just His word . . .

Again, I'm not trying to discount the bible. I'm simply saying there is a lot more that He has provided for us than just that.

What would you do, alethos, if you did not have a bible?May I answer that? -

(John 2:22 KJV) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

(John 12:16 KJV) These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

(John 14:26 KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I think we would be in an sea of ignorance without the scriptures.

(Isa 43:10-12 KJV) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. {11} I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. {12} I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Have we witnessed the creation of the world, the miracles of the Exodus, or Jesus' resurrection from the dead? No, but we have the testimonies of those who did - faithful men of God who were moved to speak as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(1 John 5:9-12 KJV) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. {10} He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. {11} And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. {12} He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

If the Spirit did not bear witness to this record which men have testified, what would He bear witness to?

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 18th 2007, 07:01 PM
Here's something to think about . . .

Is it about knowing the bible or about knowing God?

Some will immediately say if you know the bible you will know God. Not true. There is a reason that Paul says that knowledge will only puff up, and there is a reason why I know all sorts of folks who know a lot about the bible but do not display the fruit of the Spirit.

I mean you hear this line constantly . . .

Know the bible . . . know the bible . . . know the bible . . .

I think it's the opposite. Know God the Father through His Son and THEN you will truly know the bible. There is a reason why the early church could know God and His will for their lives without even having a bible.

I'm not trying to say that the bible isn't important. It is VERY important. I'm simply saying that there is a lot more to this thing that just "knowing the bible".

Right now I feel like I know God a lot better than I know the bible, and it's clear to me that while this is a nice point to start from, it is, without the Book, of almost no use. Knowing God as I do I have said many things which I felt were true, which are pretty much unequivocally proven wrong in the Book. The two together are entirely essential, but I've got to say I'm of the opinion that while there's no lack of knowledge of the Book, there's a distinct distance from the Father himself in many Christians and many churches.

VerticalReality
Dec 18th 2007, 07:07 PM
May I answer that? -

(John 2:22 KJV) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

(John 12:16 KJV) These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

(John 14:26 KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I think we would be in an sea of ignorance without the scriptures.

(Isa 43:10-12 KJV) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. {11} I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. {12} I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Have we witnessed the creation of the world, the miracles of the Exodus, or Jesus' resurrection from the dead? No, but we have the testimonies of those who did - faithful men of God who were moved to speak as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(1 John 5:9-12 KJV) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. {10} He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. {11} And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. {12} He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

If the Spirit did not bear witness to this record which men have testified, what would He bear witness to?

There are many Christians in this world who do not have a bible that are not "in a sea of ignorance". In fact, many who have actually been around them would argue they live a closer walk with the Lord than anyone else they've met. What would you say, Mograce, about the millions of Christians who never had their very own bible prior to the printing press? Again, many could argue they lived a much closer walk with the Lord than the millions of folks today who have about five bibles sitting in their own house.

But again, I'm not trying to discount the importance of the Word. However, if ones' relationship is hinged on Reading 101, I'd say it is extremely deprived.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 18th 2007, 07:19 PM
One cannot know God without hearing His Word.
Once one knows the Word, one will know who is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Dec 18th 2007, 07:50 PM
One cannot know God without hearing His Word.
Once one knows the Word, one will know who is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Shalom,
Tanja

And many have heard the Word without a bible. How have millions of Christians throughout history who didn't have a bible of their own avoid false teachers and false prophets?

I find it disturbing that reading is as deep as it goes for some. That's a problem, IMO, and I think it demonstrates why there are 5,000 different denominations out there all saying they are the right one.

VerticalReality
Dec 18th 2007, 07:57 PM
I mean for crying out loud folks . . . what are you going to do if the United States is taken over by a communist or terrorist regime and all the nation's bibles are burned up? How did folks manage for thousands of years without a bible of their own?

It shouldn't have to be written on paper for you to know in your spirit not to do something. It should not have to be in black and white to know what God expects of His children. If you are led by love you are fulfilling everything anyway. The entire bible is summed up in one word . . . LOVE.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 18th 2007, 09:03 PM
VR,
i think you're missing the point i was trying to make. I think too many figure the Holy Spirit replaces the Word. The Holy Spirit does not equal the Word and all His commands.
Let me try to clarify:

Just as a body functions poorly with little food or nutrition, so the Holy Spirit can only operate upon what you feed yourself spiritually.
The Word was given to the people in the wilderness, and they were fed Manna for a long time. This was healthy food. Why do you think God was miffed when they complained and wanted something else to eat ? They didn't want to hear the word anymore, they wanted more pleasant stuff. So God sent them their hearts desire and flooded them with quail til it came out their ears.

I think too many people figure once they heard a little bit of word, and then they have been saved then they have the Holy Spirit, and they no longer need anything. Food only nourishes the body for so long. The body can survive for a while, but not forever.

The same goes with Spiritual matters. Knowing the Word is knowing God, that doesn't just happen overnight. Have you ever met a person and talked to them for a few hours and been able to claim you knew them well ?

Then the body that is meant for a specific task has to be nourished and excersized properly to be able to be up for the task. If this is not done, then you will succumb before the day arrives.

I'm by no means condemning those that have heard very little of the word and acted upon their knowledge and understanding, but i would venture to say they were very limited in their scope of what they could accomplish for God.

As for the word being written.... Moses wrote it down, and receited it to the people after he had told them the previous day.... there's really a lot more to it IMO than meets the eye.

And what you mentioned here:

what are you going to do if the United States is taken over by a communist or terrorist regime and all the nation's bibles are burned up? How did folks manage for thousands of years without a bible of their own?Funny you mentioned that, i think it will actually happen when the antichrist comes. He will not want people to know what the Torah says.
The point is, you are what you feed your mind, if you foolishly rely only on the Holy Spirit, when that time comes you will not be able to discern truth, because your scope of understanding and knowledge is limited. But regardless, God said he will shorten those days for the sake of the elect so that they cannot be polluted and deceived. He will take each elect home before that breaking point is reached.

And you know something? The religious Jews who study Torah may be better off than those that call themselves Christians but know very little about what God said and commanded.


Shalom,
Tanja

Mograce2U
Dec 18th 2007, 09:47 PM
I mean for crying out loud folks . . . what are you going to do if the United States is taken over by a communist or terrorist regime and all the nation's bibles are burned up? How did folks manage for thousands of years without a bible of their own?

It shouldn't have to be written on paper for you to know in your spirit not to do something. It should not have to be in black and white to know what God expects of His children. If you are led by love you are fulfilling everything anyway. The entire bible is summed up in one word . . . LOVE.Perhaps not, but then we have God's directive that a record would be kept.

(Habakkuk 2:1-2) I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved. {2} And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

The oral tradition was also a record as faithful men passed down the words spoken by the prophets - and recorded them. Even God wrote the law on tablets of stone and gave them to Moses.

And David has probably the greatest praise for the word of God:

(Psalms 138:2) I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

So while we may not "need" to have it written down for us, it seems that God thought that to be a good plan.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 18th 2007, 09:51 PM
Great post Robin :hug:, i agree that this is often overlooked.


So while we may not "need" to have it written down for us, it seems that God thought that to be a good plan.

When was a contract between two parties not ever written in paper.... you could do an oral contract, but even today's Law says it's not binding, and advises you to have it written down in black and white.
Hint: the covenant is a contract, a marriage contract.

Shalom,
Tanja

Friend of I AM
Dec 18th 2007, 09:53 PM
I mean for crying out loud folks . . . what are you going to do if the United States is taken over by a communist or terrorist regime and all the nation's bibles are burned up? How did folks manage for thousands of years without a bible of their own?

It shouldn't have to be written on paper for you to know in your spirit not to do something. It should not have to be in black and white to know what God expects of His children. If you are led by love you are fulfilling everything anyway. The entire bible is summed up in one word . . . LOVE.


I think it would be easy. As you've stated the bible is Love as is God. All of the commandments stem from it. So we wouldn't have much of a problem if the bibles were burned. We'd just continue on, loving one another - and following the commands to the best of our ability.

AlainaJ
Dec 18th 2007, 10:03 PM
Here's something to think about . . .

Is it about knowing the bible or about knowing God?

Some will immediately say if you know the bible you will know God. Not true. There is a reason that Paul says that knowledge will only puff up, and there is a reason why I know all sorts of folks who know a lot about the bible but do not display the fruit of the Spirit.

I mean you hear this line constantly . . .

Know the bible . . . know the bible . . . know the bible . . .

I think it's the opposite. Know God the Father through His Son and THEN you will truly know the bible. There is a reason why the early church could know God and His will for their lives without even having a bible.

I'm not trying to say that the bible isn't important. It is VERY important. I'm simply saying that there is a lot more to this thing that just "knowing the bible".


Awesome...God uses the Bible to speak to us and teach us...nut I am sure the demons know the bible too.

it comes down to do you know Jesus Christ and have trusted Him as your Savior.

Alaina

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 18th 2007, 10:42 PM
I find it disturbing that reading is as deep as it goes for some. That's a problem, IMO, and I think it demonstrates why there are 5,000 different denominations out there all saying they are the right one.

Agreed.
If the word was to be unavailable to us I have no doubts that God would make all we needed to know clear to us through other means- but with the perfect book right there, and the perfect Guide within us, there is no cause for Him to do so.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 18th 2007, 10:46 PM
I find it disturbing that reading is as deep as it goes for some. That's a problem, IMO, and I think it demonstrates why there are 5,000 different denominations out there all saying they are the right one.

I don't think reading the word demonstrates why we have so many different denominations.
Rather i believe those who created those different denominations not having the Holy Spirit is why there are over 5,000 of them.

Shalom,
Tanja

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 10:52 PM
Even those that have the Holy Spirit disagree on some things. We see through a glass darkly. Unfortunately, denominations are also some folks golden calf.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 18th 2007, 11:02 PM
Even those that have the Holy Spirit disagree on some things. We see through a glass darkly. Unfortunately, denominations are also some folks golden calf.
I agree that even those who have the Holy Spirit may disagree on some things. However, if they are truly God's chosen i would expect a Unity in the big issues, as well as a large part of unity in the smaller issues.

A house that is divided cannot stand.

Shalom,
Tanja

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 11:04 PM
I agree that even those who have the Holy Spirit may disagree on some things. However, if they are truly God's chosen i would expect a Unity in the big issues, as well as a large part of unity in the smaller issues.

A house that is divided cannot stand.

Shalom,
Tanja

But disagreements do not mean division. For instance, Barnabas and Paul disagreed. Yet, they were unified.

Now, when the denomination is more important to us than Jesus, we have a problem. Or, if we choose to let the denomination divide us, we have a problem. The generation rising today, will be far less faithful to denominations than generations before.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 18th 2007, 11:18 PM
Well Brother Mark,

Denomination is smoke and wind to me, i care less what one calls themselves. I care about people knowing the Word and living by it.

That is more important than anything.

What i was trying to say though is, that God's faithful remnant would be unified, as a house divided could not stand. So i'm wondering exactly which group of people this would involve.

Shalom,
Tanja

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2007, 11:22 PM
Well Brother Mark,

Denomination is smoke and wind to me, i care less what one calls themselves. I care about people knowing the Word and living by it.

That is more important than anything.

What i was trying to say though is, that God's faithful remnant would be unified, as a house divided could not stand. So i'm wondering exactly which group of people this would involve.

Shalom,
Tanja

Personally, I think they will be from many tribes and nations and denominations. I have worshiped with Baptist, Presbetyrians, Charismatics, Holiness, Church of God, Assembly of God, Messianic, and others. I was unified with all of them by salvation through Jesus Christ.

SIG
Dec 18th 2007, 11:35 PM
As for wolves in sheep's clothing--these are ones who teach faulty or false doctrines. It is Scripture that teaches right doctrine--and Scripture itself (Himself) says so...

As for believers who don't have access to the Bible --they earnestly desire to have a copy.

"Don't try to imagine God or you will have an imaginary God." -- A.W. Tozer

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 18th 2007, 11:42 PM
Well Sig, i agree wholeheartedly. It scares me to see that anyone should think they can find the truth in some book someone wrote about God. IMO books about God can lead some to God, but the only place to find unadulterated truth is in the scriptures.

I don't think there are too many books out there that teach even close to 90 % truth.

Shalom,
Tanja

alethos
Dec 19th 2007, 12:00 AM
.

What would you do, alethos, if you did not have a bible?

I would go get another one. And if all the Bibles were destroyed, I would be sure to hide His word in my heart while I still have a Bible.
Psalm 119:11 Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against Thee

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 19th 2007, 12:07 AM
I would go get another one. And if all the Bibles were destroyed, I would be sure to hide His word in my heart while I still have a Bible.
Psalm 119:11 Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against Thee

Excellent advise......

Shalom,
Tanja

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2007, 12:20 AM
Meh, there's a lot of wolves out their - even in this forum...but how about a sheep in wolves clothing, I be a lot of people never heard of that one... But here's a scripture that kind of reminds me of what a sheep and wolves clothing might look like...;)

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

You can't tell all of the time who the wolves in sheeps clothing, and the sheeps in wolves clothing are - which is probably the way God intended it to be - so we should just be kind to everyone - while at the same time being cautious...

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 19th 2007, 12:55 AM
You can't tell all of the time who the wolves in sheeps clothing, and the sheeps in wolves clothing are - which is probably the way God intended it to be - so we should just be kind to everyone - while at the same time being cautious...

Scripture/Yeshua gives clear warning about thesw olves in sheeps clothing, and calls them false prophets. False Prophecy doesn't just involve fortelling of future events, but also includes teaching and preaching the scriptures.

Scripture also tells us Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.

While not all disease distorts the appearance of a Human, it does bear fruit after its kind.
The serpent twisted truth with doubt and an outright lie.....

Study the scriptures, and you will have discernment as to who is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Because someone who has never seen an apple or an orange will not know the difference until he or she hears or learns otherwise.


Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2007, 03:30 AM
I would go get another one. And if all the Bibles were destroyed, I would be sure to hide His word in my heart while I still have a Bible.
Psalm 119:11 Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against Thee

Hmmm . . . that seems a little farfetched to me. You have a couple of thousand pages worth of Scripture memorized?

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 19th 2007, 04:31 AM
Hmmm . . . that seems a little farfetched to me. You have a couple of thousand pages worth of Scripture memorized?
That;s where the Holy Spirit comes in, He comforts you with the scriptures you need at the time, and brings them to mind.

I don't memorise anything, and when i read something and study scripture, often i find myself suddenly drawing on scriptures i would not have been able to recall if it weren't for the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, in any situation i find myself in throughout the day, if i'm about to sin, He brings to mind scriptures telling me what should be done.

Shalom,
Tanja

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2007, 10:04 AM
Scripture/Yeshua gives clear warning about thesw olves in sheeps clothing, and calls them false prophets. False Prophecy doesn't just involve fortelling of future events, but also includes teaching and preaching the scriptures.

Scripture also tells us Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.

While not all disease distorts the appearance of a Human, it does bear fruit after its kind.
The serpent twisted truth with doubt and an outright lie.....

Study the scriptures, and you will have discernment as to who is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Because someone who has never seen an apple or an orange will not know the difference until he or she hears or learns otherwise.


Shalom,
Tanja

Eziekiel 17

The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, set forth an allegory and tell it to the house of Israel as a parable. Say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: A great eagle with powerful wings, long feathers and full plumage of varied colors came to Lebanon. Taking hold of the top of a cedar, he broke off its topmost shoot and carried it away to a land of merchants, where he planted it in a city of traders.

'He took one of the seedlings of the land and put it in fertile soil. He planted it like a willow by abundant water, and it sprouted and became a low, spreading vine. Its branches turned toward him, but its roots remained under it. So it became a vine and produced branches and put out leafy boughs.
" 'But there was another great eagle with powerful wings and full plumage. The vine now sent out its roots toward him from the plot where it was planted and stretched out its branches to him for water. 8 It had been planted in good soil by abundant water so that it would produce branches, bear fruit and become a splendid vine.'
"Say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Will it thrive? Will it not be uprooted and stripped of its fruit so that it withers? All its new growth will wither. It will not take a strong arm or many people to pull it up by the roots. It has been planted, but will it thrive? Will it not wither completely when the east wind strikes it—wither away in the plot where it grew?' "
Then the word of the LORD came to me: "Say to this rebellious house, 'Do you not know what these things mean?' Say to them: 'The king of Babylon went to Jerusalem and carried off her king and her nobles, bringing them back with him to Babylon. Then he took a member of the royal family and made a treaty with him, putting him under oath. He also carried away the leading men of the land, so that the kingdom would be brought low, unable to rise again, surviving only by keeping his treaty. 15 But the king rebelled against him by sending his envoys to Egypt to get horses and a large army. Will he succeed? Will he who does such things escape? Will he break the treaty and yet escape?
" 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, he shall die in Babylon, in the land of the king who put him on the throne, whose oath he despised and whose treaty he broke. Pharaoh with his mighty army and great horde will be of no help to him in war, when ramps are built and siege works erected to destroy many lives. He despised the oath by breaking the covenant. Because he had given his hand in pledge and yet did all these things, he shall not escape.
" 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: As surely as I live, I will bring down on his head my oath that he despised and my covenant that he broke. I will spread my net for him, and he will be caught in my snare. I will bring him to Babylon and execute judgment on him there because he was unfaithful to me. All his choice troops will fall by the sword, and the survivors will be scattered to the winds. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken. " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will take a shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it; I will break off a tender sprig from its topmost shoots and plant it on a high and lofty mountain. On the mountain heights of Israel I will plant it; it will produce branches and bear fruit and become a splendid cedar. Birds of every kind will nest in it; they will find shelter in the shade of its branches. All the trees of the forest will know that I the LORD bring down the tall tree and make the low tree grow tall. I dry up the green tree and make the dry tree flourish.
" 'I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it.' "

Ultimately - whether or not the fruit is good or bad, the Lord will decide as to whether or not he wants to keep or uproot any tree that has been harvested and has produced fruit. So in going forward with God - it is important that we concentrate less on our ability to discern, and more so on being loving to one another. Trust not our own understanding, but trust instead in the understanding and the will of God.

Stephen

alethos
Dec 19th 2007, 12:58 PM
Hmmm . . . that seems a little farfetched to me. You have a couple of thousand pages worth of Scripture memorized?

I guarantee you that I have more of it memorized than those who don't daily delve into the book. So who is most likely to be deceived by false teaching. Those who read the word and know the word, or those who don't read the word and what they do know has come down through the teachings of men?

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2007, 02:13 PM
I guarantee you that I have more of it memorized than those who don't daily delve into the book. So who is most likely to be deceived by false teaching. Those who read the word and know the word, or those who don't read the word and what they do know has come down through the teachings of men?

Was Paul deceived by false teaching? Did he have his very own bible?

Let's say you were fortunate enough to have your own bible for a time and memorize a good bit of it . . . what would future generations do who didn't have the same fortune as you? You think the Lord would just leave them in the dark? I mean they don't have their own bible to memorize. That must mean that they would simply be forced to live their entire lives in darkness I suppose . . .

I don't buy that at all. The Word can still be delivered without a book. What if you can't read? Are you doomed to remain in darkness?

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2007, 02:19 PM
Was Paul deceived by false teaching? Did he have his very own bible?

Let's say you were fortunate enough to have your own bible for a time and memorize a good bit of it . . . what would future generations do who didn't have the same fortune as you? You the Lord would just leave them in the dark? I mean they don't have their own bible to memorize. That must mean that they would simply be forced to live their entire lives in darkness I suppose . . .

I don't buy that at all. The Word can still be delivered without a book. What if you can't read? Are you doomed to remain in darkness?

Noah didn't have a book..neither did Abraham, neither did Enoch...the word is now written in our hearts...despite what we don't know, it is God who either allows us to be "lead into temptation" or "delivers us from evil." A person can have every verse memorized, know every prophecy ever fulfilled - and still be walking in darkness...ultimately, God is the decider as to who is saved and not saved.

Stephen

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2007, 02:23 PM
That;s where the Holy Spirit comes in, He comforts you with the scriptures you need at the time, and brings them to mind.

I don't memorise anything, and when i read something and study scripture, often i find myself suddenly drawing on scriptures i would not have been able to recall if it weren't for the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, in any situation i find myself in throughout the day, if i'm about to sin, He brings to mind scriptures telling me what should be done.

Shalom,
Tanja

Hmmm . . .

So let's use the example of worrying . . .

You believe that the Holy Spirit isn't going to speak to you and say, "Don't worry about worldly matters," . . .

Instead you believe the Holy Spirit's going to say . . .



Matthew 6:25-34
“Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.


What does the second one accomplish that the first one could not?

alethos
Dec 19th 2007, 02:27 PM
Was Paul deceived by false teaching? Did he have his very own bible?

Let's say you were fortunate enough to have your own bible for a time and memorize a good bit of it . . . what would future generations do who didn't have the same fortune as you? You think the Lord would just leave them in the dark? I mean they don't have their own bible to memorize. That must mean that they would simply be forced to live their entire lives in darkness I suppose . . .

I don't buy that at all. The Word can still be delivered without a book. What if you can't read? Are you doomed to remain in darkness?

Paul was raised studying God's word. It is part of the way God was preparing him for what He had in store for him.
Acts 22:3 I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, at the feet of Gamaliel, instructed according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God, even as ye all are this day:

Yes the word can be delivered without the book. The word is delivered in Mormon churchs every week. But it isn't taught in truth. Those who hear it don't know it and are led astray.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not led astray:

2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;
2Tim 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 19th 2007, 02:32 PM
What does the second one accomplish that the first one could not?

The second leaves me no doubt as to which Spirit is talking to me.

I never said the Holy Spirit gives me a whole paragraph....so i find your example a bit excessive.

Shalom,
Tanja

Theophilus
Dec 19th 2007, 02:48 PM
Was Paul deceived by false teaching? Did he have his very own bible?

No, he wasn't...but he had the Old Testament, and it's obvious from the way he quoted in his very letters and epistles that he had a good deal committed to memory.

As someone who does memorize, I wholeheartedly believe everyone should get as much Scripture memorized as they can. One, it is something to have in your mind besides worldly junk. Two, it is something to occupy your time with that beats filling it with the aforementioned worldly junk. Three, it helps you have an answer for every man, when they ask you why you have joy in your heart. Four (and this is part paranoia, and part preparing for any eventuality), it's a good idea if/when our Bibles are taken away from us, or if we're somewhere we don't have access to the Bible. Those are just a few of the reasons.

I realize you're not advocating that we don't memorize...I just was jumping on one of my personal soapboxes for a minute. ;)



Let's say you were fortunate enough to have your own bible for a time and memorize a good bit of it . . . what would future generations do who didn't have the same fortune as you? You think the Lord would just leave them in the dark? I mean they don't have their own bible to memorize. That must mean that they would simply be forced to live their entire lives in darkness I suppose . . .
No...He wouldn't leave them in the dark. It would be up to whatever Christians were already there to spread the Gospel...and I believe you'd be astounded at how much Scripture those remaining Christians would have committed to memory. He might be a tad flaky at times, but I'd be contacting Jack Van Impe, and start taking dictation. :)

When I preach, I preach Scripture...without the backing of the authority of Scripture, I could preach whatever I wanted to, and who'd be the wiser, lacking a Bible to check up on me?



I don't buy that at all. The Word can still be delivered without a book. What if you can't read? Are you doomed to remain in darkness?

Yeah, the word can be delivered without the Bible...but for those who have questions about what you preach, what's your authority based upon? Just what you say? Or the written word?

What is preaching, anyway? It's an exposition of the written Word, empowered by the Living Word, and delivered as the spoken word. Lack any of those elements, and you're not going to be terribly effective.

Romans 10:17 says this: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So yeah, if you can't read, you have to hear it...but what you hear must be what God has said...and where do we have a record of what God has said? The Bible.

Of course, I consider this somewhat moot, that is, the prospect of all Bibles being seized or whatever. God has preserved His word throughout the age of mankind, and I have no doubt He always will. It still behooves us, though, to put as much as we can in our own personal memory banks...

tma66
Dec 19th 2007, 03:22 PM
Thank you for sharing that. I know someone who goes to church, volunteers at church, quotes the bible easily and teaches church classes. This person is also one of the nastiest persons ive ever met. She has told damaging lies on others, lies that cost others their jobs and destroyed their reputations. She has stolen money and items {I have caught her} she has broken up marriages by engaging in affairs {she teaches moral classes on the subject and how wrong it is} This person has a very strong hold on the church and people around her so no one can believe she does these things. She has actually sat {when she knew someone wasnt around that she was trying to hide real evil self from} and crused and said very hateful things then when someone walks up she tries to hide from she will start praying and quoting the bible...it is crazy. Its strange how people do this. Of course Im sure there are much worse things that go on.

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2007, 03:23 PM
The second leaves me no doubt as to which Spirit is talking to me.

And the first one didn't? What was different in the message of the first one from the second?

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 19th 2007, 03:32 PM
VR,

Look, to you it may not make a difference, to me it does. I'd prefer to have 100 % evidence that what the Spirit is telling me is scripture, instead of hearing something wondering if it lined up with the bible. This leaves one vulnerable to doubt.

Now, maybe if i'd experienced enough trial in which God has shown/taught me that i needed not to worry, then maybe those first few words would suffice these days. (and it does)
However, if i'm learning something new, and i'm not sure i always go to the word and study it out to make sure that what the "Spirit" has told me was indeed of the Holy Spirit.
Let's face it, how many out there have claimed to have had the Holy Spirit tell them something, and it was not scriptural at all???

I'm not saying that your first example is invalid, but for one new in Christ, this could be dangerous ground to listen to just a few words, without knowing if it really lines up with scripture.

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2007, 03:44 PM
No, he wasn't...but he had the Old Testament, and it's obvious from the way he quoted in his very letters and epistles that he had a good deal committed to memory.

I'm sure he did have a good bit committed to memory. The gentiles he preached to didn't have any. I wonder how it was that he verified what he was saying was true. :hmm:


As someone who does memorize, I wholeheartedly believe everyone should get as much Scripture memorized as they can.

I have no problem with that.


No...He wouldn't leave them in the dark. It would be up to whatever Christians were already there to spread the Gospel...and I believe you'd be astounded at how much Scripture those remaining Christians would have committed to memory. He might be a tad flaky at times, but I'd be contacting Jack Van Impe, and start taking dictation.

This is true, but I think it's even a little deeper than that. There was a time when no Scripture was written . . . yet there were still men who had a close enough relationship with God that could deliver what He wanted them to. That's my entire point here. It's not that the bible isn't important. It's that our relationship with the Father is most important. Without the relationship you don't have anything.


When I preach, I preach Scripture...without the backing of the authority of Scripture, I could preach whatever I wanted to, and who'd be the wiser, lacking a Bible to check up on me?

I think the fruit is the deciding factor. Back in Paul's time there were false teachers that were teaching contrary to what Paul was teaching, and Paul acted as if they should have known the truth. What made Paul's message the truth and the others' message false? How were they supposed to tell the difference?


Yeah, the word can be delivered without the Bible...but for those who have questions about what you preach, what's your authority based upon? Just what you say? Or the written word?

What did Jesus say?

John 14:10-11
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Jesus basically said here, "Look, if you can't believe what I'm saying in word alone . . . at least believe from the works you see Me doing."

Should it not also be the same for us? I mean Jesus did say that those who believe will do the same works as He and even greater works. However, that comes from relationship and knowing God the Father through the Son Jesus Christ as I stated in my first post.


Romans 10:17 says this: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So yeah, if you can't read, you have to hear it...but what you hear must be what God has said...and where do we have a record of what God has said? The Bible.

When I first got saved I could have told you why I was saved and I didn't have a single verse memorized. I just knew in my heart what was true. At that time if someone would have came to me and stated that Jesus Christ wasn't the way I would have definitely told them to hit the road and I wouldn't have listened to a thing they had to say. Not because the bible said so, but because my heart said so. God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ wrote it on my heart and nobody could take that away from me.

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2007, 03:50 PM
VR,

Look, to you it may not make a difference, to me it does. I'd prefer to have 100 % evidence that what the Spirit is telling me is scripture, instead of hearing something wondering if it lined up with the bible. This leaves one vulnerable to doubt.

Now, maybe if i'd experienced enough trial in which God has shown/taught me that i needed not to worry, then maybe those first few words would suffice these days. (and it does)
However, if i'm learning something new, and i'm not sure i always go to the word and study it out to make sure that what the "Spirit" has told me was indeed of the Holy Spirit.
Let's face it, how many out there have claimed to have had the Holy Spirit tell them something, and it was not scriptural at all???

I'm not saying that your first example is invalid, but for one new in Christ, this could be dangerous ground to listen to just a few words, without knowing if it really lines up with scripture.

Shalom,
Tanja

Being "new in Christ" isn't a new concept. There have been those who are "new in Christ" since the beginning of the Church. How do you believe a good portion of those managed to make it and mature in Christ without a written bible of their own? The answer . . . they still knew God. You can know God and not know all the bible. Similarly, you can know the bible and not know God.

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2007, 03:51 PM
Thank you for sharing that. I know someone who goes to church, volunteers at church, quotes the bible easily and teaches church classes. This person is also one of the nastiest persons ive ever met. She has told damaging lies on others, lies that cost others their jobs and destroyed their reputations. She has stolen money and items {I have caught her} she has broken up marriages by engaging in affairs {she teaches moral classes on the subject and how wrong it is} This person has a very strong hold on the church and people around her so no one can believe she does these things. She has actually sat {when she knew someone wasnt around that she was trying to hide real evil self from} and crused and said very hateful things then when someone walks up she tries to hide from she will start praying and quoting the bible...it is crazy. Its strange how people do this. Of course Im sure there are much worse things that go on.

And this is precisely my point. People who claim that you know God by knowing the bible are way off base.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 19th 2007, 03:54 PM
I'm sure he did have a good bit committed to memory. The gentiles he preached to didn't have any. I wonder how it was that he verified what he was saying was true.
1Ti 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.
Act 13:44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Act 13:15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."

They read from the scriptures which were written down, the Torah (Law) and the Prophets.... this was done every sabbath.
I'm sure they were able to examine the scriptures.

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2007, 03:57 PM
1Ti 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.
Act 13:44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Act 13:15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."

They read from the scriptures which were written down, the Torah (Law) and the Prophets.... this was done every sabbath.
I'm sure they were able to examine the scriptures.

Shalom,
Tanja

Pagans probably cared nothing about the Scriptures.

MMC
Dec 19th 2007, 04:13 PM
When I came to Christ it wasn't because I had read the gospels. Someone shared with me who He was, and what He did for me. My relationship with Him came first - it preceded my study of His Word.

However, after accepting Him as my savior, and without the discipline of studying His Word to get to know and understand Him better, I fell away for a very long, dark, period in my life. When, by His grace, He drew me back to Himself, He prompted me to begin studying His Word. I learned, for example, that while I had accepted Him as my savior, I had not yet made Him the Lord of my life. He taught me this, and many other truths about myself, through His Word.

So, IMHO, *both* are exceedingly important in the life of a Christian. We must have a relationship with Him, or as VR says, it is all for naught. Clearly, this is most important. Even Christ says so! (Look at His rebuke of the Pharisees - head knowledge means nothing if our hearts are wrong). On the other hand, it is difficult to have a relationship if we don't know who He is - and relying on the teachings of others, or on our own "feelings" is exceedingly dangerous (I am living proof of it).

If and when the Church is deprived of its bibles, I am confident the Holy Spirit will guide us just fine. But for now, we have them...so I, for one, will use mine (while *also* listening for the quiet nudgings of my Wonderful Counselor)!

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2007, 04:20 PM
When I came to Christ it wasn't because I had read the gospels. Someone shared with me who He was, and what He did for me. My relationship with Him came first - it preceded my study of His Word.

However, after accepting Him as my savior, and without the discipline of studying His Word to get to know and understand Him better, I fell away for a very long, dark, period in my life. When, by His grace, He drew me back to Himself, He prompted me to begin studying His Word. I learned, for example, that while I had accepted Him as my savior, I had not yet made Him the Lord of my life. He taught me this, and many other truths about myself, through His Word.

So, IMHO, *both* are exceedingly important in the life of a Christian. We must have a relationship with Him, or as VR says, it is all for naught. Clearly, this is most important. Even Christ says so! (Look at His rebuke of the Pharisees - head knowledge means nothing if our hearts are wrong). On the other hand, it is difficult to have a relationship if we don't know who He is - and relying on the teachings of others, or on our own "feelings" is exceedingly dangerous (I am living proof of it).

If and when the Church is deprived of its bibles, I am confident the Holy Spirit will guide us just fine. But for now, we have them...so I, for one, will use mine (while *also* listening for the quiet nudgings of my Wonderful Counselor)!

That's a good post, MMC. That's really what it's all about. It's not about just reading a book. We must cherish the relationship we have with our Creator and Father. That's not saying that the book isn't important and helpful in our growth, but it's not going to do us any good whatsoever if we don't allow our Father to mold us in the manner His Word describes. Folks who don't listen and seek the Lord for His guidance are missing out on potential growth. Folks who believe that God only speaks through the bible are missing out as well, IMO. God can lead and guide us very specifically in our own lives with very specific situations that we will encounter.

BranchoftheVine
Dec 20th 2007, 02:20 AM
This past Halloween a young boy came to my door trick or treating. He was wearing a Spiderman costume. I gave him a piece of candy, and before he turned around to walk away, he said, "you didn't recognize me did you?" Then he took his mask off, and I realized that it was 10 year old Brian who lived down the street from me. In the same way our Bible tells us that wolves will come in among us not sparing the flock. They will be wearing sheeps costumes which disguise the fact that under their costume they are actually wolves waiting to tear us to shreds. They are masters of disguise. They could be excellent charismatic speakers who get the attention of the simple minded who don't know the word of God well enough and these imposters deceive them.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

2 Pet 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

False teaching runs rampant today from among those who claim to be friends of the Bible. If we want to make sure we will not be deceived and torn apart, then we need to know the word of God.

Yep. Some people have the gift of discerning spirits. Everyone needs to test all teaching to the Word of God, and see if the person really has God's Spirit, and manifests the fruits of His Spirit, and if they are really "born again."

Now, a pastor/preacher can be caught in secret sin, but that doesn't automatically make him a "wolf in sheep's clothing." We all can struggle with sin. What makes a person a "wisc" is the incorrect doctrine of their teaching, and walk of fleshly ways, which can lead others astray and into sinning and stumbling -- a very serious offense to the Lord.

On these boards, we are all growing in the Word of God, and talking things out. For example, on that "Blasphemy" thread, I felt you (Alethos) weren't necessarily teaching the subject correctly. Now, does that make you a "false teacher" or a "wolf" disguised as a Christian, out to "tear up people in the flock?" No. Because, this is a board of discussing theology and Scripture, and sometimes we all can say something incorrect, and need corrected. Or, we can have different views on those verses.

I feel the most convincing "wolves" could be people that started out sincere Christianity, and know Scripture to a degree, but fell into sin (sexual immorality, lust of the world, love of money, fear of man), and the Word was choked out, and they are walking in blindness and error. I'm not sure, though. Why many "prodigals" don't become something like that, and some do, I don't know why. A person most likely has to have a charismatic quality about them, or maybe looks, or leadership skills, which naturally attracts.

By looking at the Word, it is a terrible, grave sin. However, the Lord does forgive in this "age of grace", if somebody's eyes are opened, and they are repentant. (See Jezebel, the false prophetess, in Revelation 2). Like any sin and lawless deed that is forgiven by God when repented of, it is blotted out and remembered no more, according to Scripture.

Mograce2U
Dec 20th 2007, 02:57 AM
Branchofthevine,

Now, a pastor/preacher can be caught in secret sin, but that doesn't automatically make him a "wolf in sheep's clothing." We all can struggle with sin. What makes a person a "wisc" is the incorrect doctrine of their teaching, and walk of fleshly ways, which can lead others astray and into sinning and stumbling -- a very serious offense to the Lord.I think we need to make a distinction between the hireling (John 10:12) vs the wolf. The hireling is the one who fails to warn the sheep about the wolf because the sheep aren't his and so he doesn't really care about them - only for his wages. The wolf however is a predator and is out to devour the sheep and steal them away. Jezebel who refused to repent, was working for the wolf and helping him deceive the church into idolatry. She was not caring for the sheep in any way shape or form, even in pretense - as the hireling would have.

I think the hireling fits most of those pastors who are caught up in sin and error because of covetousness. Whereas the true "wisc" is out and out working for the devil trying to lead the sheep astray from the Lord.

tma66
Dec 20th 2007, 04:36 AM
Can someone help me understand. Why people who are liars and evil and fool the church and people get away with it? Ive seen it personally and heard about it on here and on the tv. it happens all the time. God is more powerful than any evil. so why do these people keep harming others? maybe this isnt thread I should be asking on. but the wolves in sheep clothing made me wonder

jiggyfly
Dec 20th 2007, 01:18 PM
Did Abraham have a bible? How about Isaac, Jacob and Joseph. If the bible is the foundation of your faith then you are simply of a different faith than Abraham and a different household. The bible is a great tool and I'm glad we have it, but I agree with VR. If anyone gets goofed up by following the spirit it wasn't HolySpirit. If it is foolish to follow HolySpirit then Paul gave a lot of foolish instructions. The scripture may be a map but HolySpirit is our guide and anyone who thinks they can use another guide or guide themselves just because they got the map, well they are deceived already. Jesus said that HolySpirit was coming to lead us into all Truth, so if you are led by something other than HolySprit it isn't Truth that your finding, period.

jiggyfly
Dec 20th 2007, 01:26 PM
When I came to Christ it wasn't because I had read the gospels. Someone shared with me who He was, and what He did for me. My relationship with Him came first - it preceded my study of His Word.

However, after accepting Him as my savior, and without the discipline of studying His Word to get to know and understand Him better, I fell away for a very long, dark, period in my life. When, by His grace, He drew me back to Himself, He prompted me to begin studying His Word. I learned, for example, that while I had accepted Him as my savior, I had not yet made Him the Lord of my life. He taught me this, and many other truths about myself, through His Word.

So, IMHO, *both* are exceedingly important in the life of a Christian. We must have a relationship with Him, or as VR says, it is all for naught. Clearly, this is most important. Even Christ says so! (Look at His rebuke of the Pharisees - head knowledge means nothing if our hearts are wrong). On the other hand, it is difficult to have a relationship if we don't know who He is - and relying on the teachings of others, or on our own "feelings" is exceedingly dangerous (I am living proof of it).

If and when the Church is deprived of its bibles, I am confident the Holy Spirit will guide us just fine. But for now, we have them...so I, for one, will use mine (while *also* listening for the quiet nudgings of my Wonderful Counselor)!


That's a good post, MMC. That's really what it's all about. It's not about just reading a book. We must cherish the relationship we have with our Creator and Father. That's not saying that the book isn't important and helpful in our growth, but it's not going to do us any good whatsoever if we don't allow our Father to mold us in the manner His Word describes. Folks who don't listen and seek the Lord for His guidance are missing out on potential growth. Folks who believe that God only speaks through the bible are missing out as well, IMO. God can lead and guide us very specifically in our own lives with very specific situations that we will encounter.


Great posts, MMC and VR, another thing to remember is God's word must be spiritually discerned.

alethos
Dec 20th 2007, 01:37 PM
Yep. Some people have the gift of discerning spirits. Everyone needs to test all teaching to the Word of God, and see if the person really has God's Spirit, and manifests the fruits of His Spirit, and if they are really "born again."

Now, a pastor/preacher can be caught in secret sin, but that doesn't automatically make him a "wolf in sheep's clothing." We all can struggle with sin. What makes a person a "wisc" is the incorrect doctrine of their teaching, and walk of fleshly ways, which can lead others astray and into sinning and stumbling -- a very serious offense to the Lord.

On these boards, we are all growing in the Word of God, and talking things out. For example, on that "Blasphemy" thread, I felt you (Alethos) weren't necessarily teaching the subject correctly. Now, does that make you a "false teacher" or a "wolf" disguised as a Christian, out to "tear up people in the flock?" No. Because, this is a board of discussing theology and Scripture, and sometimes we all can say something incorrect, and need corrected. Or, we can have different views on those verses.

I feel the most convincing "wolves" could be people that started out sincere Christianity, and know Scripture to a degree, but fell into sin (sexual immorality, lust of the world, love of money, fear of man), and the Word was choked out, and they are walking in blindness and error. I'm not sure, though. Why many "prodigals" don't become something like that, and some do, I don't know why. A person most likely has to have a charismatic quality about them, or maybe looks, or leadership skills, which naturally attracts.

By looking at the Word, it is a terrible, grave sin. However, the Lord does forgive in this "age of grace", if somebody's eyes are opened, and they are repentant. (See Jezebel, the false prophetess, in Revelation 2). Like any sin and lawless deed that is forgiven by God when repented of, it is blotted out and remembered no more, according to Scripture.

Here is the impotant thing which we must believe. The Bible says there will be false teachers among us (2 Pet 2:1). We have to accept that as being a truthful statement. So if there will be false teachers among us, the question we need to answer is this; How do we determine who the false teachers are? And the only answer I can give, is, that we discern truth from error by comparing what men say by what is written in Scripture. If what men say doesn't agree with the word of God, then we should dismiss it as false. If we refuse to dig into the word of God we won't know falsehood from error.

Friend of I AM
Dec 20th 2007, 01:59 PM
Here is the impotant thing which we must believe. The Bible says there will be false teachers among us (2 Pet 2:1). We have to accept that as being a truthful statement. So if there will be false teachers among us, the question we need to answer is this; How do we determine who the false teachers are? And the only answer I can give, is, that we discern truth from error by comparing what men say by what is written in Scripture. If what men say doesn't agree with the word of God, then we should dismiss it as false. If we refuse to dig into the word of God we won't know falsehood from error.

True. I think we need to be careful though not to automatically yell. "Hey your a false teacher I rebuke you" to everyone who comes our way. Perhaps we should just attack the teaching as oppossed to the character of the individual. People grow in knowledge at different rates, and there is only one True teacher..all others who claim to be a "Teacher" are false to begin with. We are sheep under the same flock - and the hope is that in this process of spiritual growth, we are able to study, rebuke, and encourage one another when we have sinned or are in error about something. Believe you me, I've made a plenty of errors regarding my testimonies - and I'm learning myself not to automatically condemn a man for making a mistake..because after all, we are only human...not robots...

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 20th 2007, 03:31 PM
And this is precisely my point. People who claim that you know God by knowing the bible are way off base.Wow.....
Is Yeshua not the Word ? And have we seen Him in the flesh ? Have we seen His works ?

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

How do we see Yeshua today ?



Pagans probably cared nothing about the Scriptures.You missed the point, scriptures were read to them as well as the Jews, in combination with the news of what yeshua had done..... There were apparently quite a few Gentiles who cared to hear....

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Dec 20th 2007, 03:47 PM
Wow.....
Is Yeshua not the Word ? And have we seen Him in the flesh ? Have we seen His works ?

I don't know why you act surprised. I assume you know well one of our resident Jews on this forum that is not a Christian. You should also know well that this particular Jew has read the entire bible and has studied it a pretty good bit. Yet, even though he has read the bible in its entirety, probably on more than one occasion, he does not know Jesus. Therefore, I don't see why it is so difficult for you to accept my statement. I know MANY folks who can quote Scripture and who know the bible, yet they do not know God. The Pharisees knew the Scriptures backwards and front, yet they certainly did not know God.

Shoot, I even know some Christians that know the bible but still don't know God very well.



Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

How do we see Yeshua today ?


I've seen Him many ways.


You missed the point, scriptures were read to them as well as the Jews, in combination with the news of what yeshua had done..... There were apparently quite a few Gentiles who cared to hear....

Paul didn't approach the pagans worshipping the "unknown god" and start reading or quoting to them the Scriptures.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 20th 2007, 04:55 PM
I don't know why you act surprised. I assume you know well one of our resident Jews on this forum that is not a Christian. You should also know well that this particular Jew has read the entire bible and has studied it a pretty good bit. Yet, even though he has read the bible in its entirety, probably on more than one occasion, he does not know Jesus. Therefore, I don't see why it is so difficult for you to accept my statement. I know MANY folks who can quote Scripture and who know the bible, yet they do not know God. The Pharisees knew the Scriptures backwards and front, yet they certainly did not know God.

You know, i have spent much thought on this, and my conclusion to this is entirely different from what you see. But since this would be a debate which would likely go into controversials, i will refrain from laying it out here.
But since you speak of the one Jew who doesn't see Yeshua, i will remind you of another Jew who was here in Shorashim for a while who read the scriptures and did see Yeshua..
How do you suppose he learned of Him ? Through the scriptures.

Shalom,
Tanja

MMC
Dec 20th 2007, 04:57 PM
Great posts, MMC and VR, another thing to remember is God's word must be spiritually discerned.

Hey, Jiggy! Can you explain what you mean by "spiritually discerned"?
thanks!

VerticalReality
Dec 20th 2007, 04:59 PM
But since you speak of the one Jew who doesn't see Yeshua, i will remind you of another Jew who was here in Shorashim for a while who read the scriptures and did see Yeshua..
How do you suppose he learned of Him ? Through the scriptures.

So, how can one know God and another cannot even though they are reading the same Scriptures? Is it the Scriptures or is it God?

alethos
Dec 20th 2007, 05:00 PM
I know MANY folks who can quote Scripture and who know the bible, yet they do not know God. The Pharisees knew the Scriptures backwards and front, yet they certainly did not know God.

I agree with that assessment. Before a person can understand the word of God, God must first enable them to understand. Luke 24:45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;


Paul didn't approach the pagans worshipping the "unknown god" and start reading or quoting to them the Scriptures.

I would disagree with than. If Paul preached the ressurection of Jesus to them, I believe he must have backed up his statements with some sort of quoting of Scripture. Quite a bit of what else was spoken to them by Paul certainly resembles much of what is contained in Scripture (see below)
Acts 17:18 And certain also of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, What would this babbler say? others, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached Jesus and the resurrection.
Acts 17:24 The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Acts 17:25 neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Acts 17:26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation;
Acts 17:27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:
Acts 17:29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man.
Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:
Acts 17:31 inasmuch as he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 20th 2007, 05:07 PM
So, how can one know God and another cannot even though they are reading the same Scriptures? Is it the Scriptures or is it God?

I think it has much to do with a hardness of the heart and God's will combined.....

Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

I do not believe God will let his chosen people perish.....

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Dec 20th 2007, 05:08 PM
I agree with that assessment. Before a person can understand the word of God, God must first enable them to understand. Luke 24:45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;

Then that clearly shows that knowing God is the key to knowing Scripture, and that has been my point the entire time. I haven't discounted the Scriptures here at all. I'm simply saying that our relationship is most important. We could possibly have to do without the bible one day. That can be taken away from us. However, we cannot do without our relationship with God the Father, and there is nobody who can take that away from us. Praise the Lord for that!

VerticalReality
Dec 20th 2007, 05:09 PM
I think it has much to do with a hardness of the heart and God's will combined.....

Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

I do not believe God will let his chosen people perish.....

Shalom,
Tanja

So then you agree that just because someone knows the Scriptures it doesn't mean they know God, right?

Brother Mark
Dec 20th 2007, 05:11 PM
You know, i have spent much thought on this, and my conclusion to this is entirely different from what you see. But since this would be a debate which would likely go into controversials, i will refrain from laying it out here.
But since you speak of the one Jew who doesn't see Yeshua, i will remind you of another Jew who was here in Shorashim for a while who read the scriptures and did see Yeshua..
How do you suppose he learned of Him ? Through the scriptures.

Shalom,
Tanja

Hi Tanja. Jesus told the Pharisees that "you search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life. But the scriptures speak of me."

The Pharisees worshiped the word. They thought the bible was what saved them but it wasn't. When someone reads the word and gets understanding, it is because God opened their eyes. "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my father..." God revealed to Peter who Jesus was, not the scriptures. But the scriptures testify of Him. So when one reads the scriptures and sees Jesus, it is not because of what he read, it is because God opened his eyes. For this reason, many read the word and never see Jesus. Others, who never read the word do see Jesus. But thank God that he gave us the Bible, for it speaks of Him.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 20th 2007, 05:52 PM
Well Brohter Mark, i agree with that, but it is through the Word that one gets to know God, more when He choses to reveal Himself.

Once your eyes have been opened, does that mean you should stop searching the scriptures ?

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Dec 20th 2007, 06:00 PM
Well Brohter Mark, i agree with that, but it is through the Word that one gets to know God, more when He choses to reveal Himself.

Once your eyes have been opened, does that mean you should stop searching the scriptures ?

Shalom,
Tanja

I think we're having a misunderstanding here, Tanja. You're saying basically the same thing we've already been saying. You're just saying it in a little bit different way. Again, nobody here is discounting the Word, and it is indeed important. The point being made is that just reading the bible and memorizing Scripture is not going to allow us to know God. Look at it this way . . .

Why is it that a ton of Christians out there read the Word over and over and over again yet they still feel for some reason that God doesn't like them and is disappointed in them? It's because regardless of how much they read Scripture they still don't know God and His character even though the Word tells them that He loves them and wants the best for them. Therefore, it can't be because they don't "know the bible" that they believe this untruth. It's simply that they don't know God. If you truly know God and you have a close relationship with Him you will know how He feels for you, and you won't just need the bible to tell you that.

Brother Mark
Dec 20th 2007, 06:20 PM
Well Brohter Mark, i agree with that, but it is through the Word that one gets to know God, more when He choses to reveal Himself.

Once your eyes have been opened, does that mean you should stop searching the scriptures ?

Shalom,
Tanja

No one is saying we should not search the scriptures. We need them and they are the fastest way to know about God. But far more than scriptures are needed to know Him. For instance, one must have their eyes opened to what the word teaches about God's ways. Then one must experience God's ways in his own life. We must experience the word as much as we read it if we are to know him.

Saved7
Dec 20th 2007, 06:22 PM
This past Halloween a young boy came to my door trick or treating. He was wearing a Spiderman costume. I gave him a piece of candy, and before he turned around to walk away, he said, "you didn't recognize me did you?" Then he took his mask off, and I realized that it was 10 year old Brian who lived down the street from me. In the same way our Bible tells us that wolves will come in among us not sparing the flock. They will be wearing sheeps costumes which disguise the fact that under their costume they are actually wolves waiting to tear us to shreds. They are masters of disguise. They could be excellent charismatic speakers who get the attention of the simple minded who don't know the word of God well enough and these imposters deceive them.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

2 Pet 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

False teaching runs rampant today from among those who claim to be friends of the Bible. If we want to make sure we will not be deceived and torn apart, then we need to know the word of God.



That story is an excellent example of these scriptures, and brings it into clear view. Thanks for posting this story.:)

SIG
Dec 21st 2007, 02:47 AM
The thread has derailed a bit through the "either/or" error. It's not a question of ONLY Scripture or ONLY the Spirit--both are vital, of course.

But if someone tells me they have "a word from God," I will measure what they say with Scripture, which God has provided us for our standard.

As for me--if they have "a word from God," I am most pleased when they quote Scripture, and Scripture that applies correctly to the situation. But I'm a "sola Scriptura" kind of guy...

As for those who never had Scripture, those saved without Bibles, etc.--it's a moot point. We DO have Scripture.

I see on this thread the Bible referred to as "a book," "the book," or "the bible" (with a small "b"). Do you not understand that this is not just "a book," but rather "black fire written on white fire"?

Kingsdaughter
Dec 21st 2007, 06:00 AM
It is GOD HIMSELF who protects me from false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing. It is HIM LIVING INSIDE OF ME THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT. There are many times that I hear someone who claims to be a christian give their interpretation of a certain passage in the bible that is false. It is not because I know the bible and have scripture memorized that I can say that it is false, it is because I have HIM. The HOLY SPIRIT giving me revelation to the TRUTH of what that passage means.

What I'm trying to say is that if I just have a bible and read it and memorize it and not have HIM then His word will do nothing to protect me from false prophets.

Oh Lord please protect me now from the verbal attacks that are coming:pray:
Just kidding guys:D

jiggyfly
Dec 21st 2007, 02:24 PM
It is GOD HIMSELF who protects me from false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing. It is HIM LIVING INSIDE OF ME THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT. There are many times that I hear someone who claims to be a christian give their interpretation of a certain passage in the bible that is false. It is not because I know the bible and have scripture memorized that I can say that it is false, it is because I have HIM. The HOLY SPIRIT giving me revelation to the TRUTH of what that passage means.

What I'm trying to say is that if I just have a bible and read it and memorize it and not have HIM then His word will do nothing to protect me from false prophets.

Oh Lord please protect me now from the verbal attacks that are coming:pray:
Just kidding guys:D


Hallelujah!!!!!

jiggyfly
Dec 21st 2007, 02:34 PM
Hey, Jiggy! Can you explain what you mean by "spiritually discerned"?
thanks!

1Corintthians 2:10-15
2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Put simply, it means understood.

MMC
Dec 21st 2007, 03:04 PM
1Corintthians 2:10-15
2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Put simply, it means understood.

So...like when the Holy Spirit gives us understanding of the scripture we are reading? It wouldn't make a lick of sense to us without the HS opening our eyes. I thought all Christians believed this is how they recognize truth in the gospel.

When I'm not understanding something in scripture, I just pray about it, and leave it alone. It's still truth, but I may not yet be ready to hear it, and the HS in His wisdom will reveal things in His time, not mine. Many times I will understand something months, even years, after I've first read it. And sometimes when this happens, I also can see how I would not have been ready to hear the message back when I first read the passage.

Is that what you are talking about when you say scripture must be spiritually discerned?

jiggyfly
Dec 21st 2007, 03:14 PM
So...like when the Holy Spirit gives us understanding of the scripture we are reading? It wouldn't make a lick of sense to us without the HS opening our eyes. I thought all Christians believed this is how they recognize truth in the gospel.

When I'm not understanding something in scripture, I just pray about it, and leave it alone. It's still truth, but I may not yet be ready to hear it, and the HS in His wisdom will reveal things in His time, not mine. Many times I will understand something months, even years, after I've first read it. And sometimes when this happens, I also can see how I would not have been ready to hear the message back when I first read the passage.

Is that what you are talking about when you say scripture must be spiritually discerned?
Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. Another point, when it comes to revelation is HolySpirit limited to only using scripture or bible? I say not at all. Especially concerning the OP, one of HolySpirit's gifts to the Body of Christ is the gift of discerning of spirits, another is word of knowledge and yet another is word of wisdom. Good example of this is in Acts 5 , how did Peter know that they were lying to HolySpirit? Was it by reading his bible? How about Acts 16, Paul and the slave girl, how did he know she had a demon?

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 21st 2007, 03:52 PM
When I'm not understanding something in scripture, I just pray about it, and leave it alone. It's still truth, but I may not yet be ready to hear it, and the HS in His wisdom will reveal things in His time, not mine. Many times I will understand something months, even years, after I've first read it. And sometimes when this happens, I also can see how I would not have been ready to hear the message back when I first read the passage.

I would say that's what it is, this is exactly how it works for me.

Shalom,
Tanja

BranchoftheVine
Dec 21st 2007, 11:21 PM
Here is the impotant thing which we must believe. The Bible says there will be false teachers among us (2 Pet 2:1). We have to accept that as being a truthful statement. So if there will be false teachers among us, the question we need to answer is this; How do we determine who the false teachers are? And the only answer I can give, is, that we discern truth from error by comparing what men say by what is written in Scripture. If what men say doesn't agree with the word of God, then we should dismiss it as false. If we refuse to dig into the word of God we won't know falsehood from error.

True -- everything needs to be tested by Scripture. It is that simple. If somebody's reply is felt incorrect, than one needs to correct it in love, and discuss the error out -- in love. It is that simple.

Another issue I see on these boards: This board has a lot of people, the Bible is a big book, thus, I can read/hear things that I feel are not always 100% Biblically correct. And, I notice nobody says anything, or seems even bothered. However, other individuals can be targeted with just one wrong word said, and people can lable "false teacher!" or "wolf in the flock!" (without attempting to correct them in love first). It really isn't fair. So then, it doesn't really come down to sounding a warning, or judging righteously, it actually comes down to their own bugged ego wanting to "tackle" the one they feel is "carrying the ball." Or, maybe dismissing them as a brother or sister in Christ. That isn't righteous. So, we need to correct in love (as the Bible says). And, we need to keep ourselves (our true heart, our true motives) in check towards others.

We all have to be really careful with our words. On that "blasphemy" thread, I could have easily read your entries, and felt condemned and hopeless, if I didn't have Scriptural knowledge to combat your points. You could have easily destroyed my faith and hope, through the computer. Now, that doesn't make you a "wolf" or "false teacher", as we talked it out Scripturally, and you came around to agreement/correction. However, thinking about a "wolf in the flock", I don't feel it just is about teaching incorrect doctrine, or displaying fleshly ways that lead others to error and stumbling. It can also probably be anybody destroying people's faith, love, and/or hope -- ultimately, their life and walk in Christ.

BranchoftheVine
Dec 21st 2007, 11:36 PM
True. I think we need to be careful though not to automatically yell. "Hey your a false teacher I rebuke you" to everyone who comes our way. Perhaps we should just attack the teaching as oppossed to the character of the individual. People grow in knowledge at different rates, and there is only one True teacher..all others who claim to be a "Teacher" are false to begin with. We are sheep under the same flock - and the hope is that in this process of spiritual growth, we are able to study, rebuke, and encourage one another when we have sinned or are in error about something. Believe you me, I've made a plenty of errors regarding my testimonies - and I'm learning myself not to automatically condemn a man for making a mistake..because after all, we are only human...not robots...

Exactly. We aren't "teachers" here, we are just people responding to threads and questions, and engaging in Biblical discussion -- which naturally, we can expect an error will occur now and then. If there is an error, it shouldn't be taken lightly, and it should be corrected in love.

Biblically, I feel there is a difference between a "sheep" that needs corrected Biblically (in love), and a true "false teacher/wolf" that is deceived and deceiving, is not a true "sheep", and is harming the flock spiritually -- one that is not correctable, repentant, or responding to rebuke.

alethos
Dec 22nd 2007, 01:58 AM
True -- everything needs to be tested by Scripture. It is that simple. If On that "blasphemy" thread, I could have easily read your entries, and felt condemned and hopeless, if I didn't have Scriptural knowledge to combat your points. You could have easily destroyed my faith and hope, through the computer. Now, that doesn't make you a "wolf" or "false teacher", as we talked it out Scripturally, and you came around to agreement/correction. However, thinking about a "wolf in the flock", I don't feel it just is about teaching incorrect doctrine, or displaying fleshly ways that lead others to error and stumbling. It can also probably be anybody destroying people's faith, love, and/or hope -- ultimately, their life and walk in Christ.

This is now the second time you mentioned this. I didn't come around to any agreement in that thread. Neither did my positon ever change in that thread. What happened was that you came into a clearer understanding of what I was saying. At first you didn't understand what it was I was attempting to say. After I further explained my position, you then began to get a clearer picture of what I was saying.

BranchoftheVine
Dec 22nd 2007, 05:27 AM
^Yes, you became clearer when you came around to agreeing that if somebody repents, they are forgiven. I had to be the one to push the "prodigal son" and "lost sheep" parables, and the Jezebel example in Revelation. And, I had to bring out the fact that only the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, and brings about repentance, and it is not possible without God. Before that was cleared up, though, the main impression I felt I was getting from you was almost the "letter of the law", or the condemnation and heaviness of the OT law, without His grace -- or something. However, that was just my impression, and I had to talk it out with you.

In a kind tone, I'm just trying to show two things here, in light of your thread: 1) You are capable of error yourself, and the rest of us are as well, so we need to correct each other in love, before crying "false teacher!" on this board. 2) There are a number of Biblical subjects that are debatable, and some people will differ. (The timing of the rapture is a good example, and the unforgivable sin is another).

alethos
Dec 22nd 2007, 12:38 PM
^Yes, you became clearer when you came around to agreeing that if somebody repents, they are forgiven.

I will say this one last time. I didn't come around to agreeing. I have always believed that those who repent are forgiven. It's not something you led me to believe. It's a basic concept of Christianity.

Brother Mark
Dec 22nd 2007, 12:44 PM
Hi folks. In light of eternity, isn't it better if we don't take things on the board too personal?

Friend of I AM
Dec 22nd 2007, 05:30 PM
So then you agree that just because someone knows the Scriptures it doesn't mean they know God, right?

Those who know God will read and study - so they will be approved by him and get to know his character better. However, one cannot know scriptures without having a love for God. If one does indeed love God they will do their best to follow his commands as found within his word. Sometimes, they will make mistakes when following God - and although they know they are forgiven - being that they know the character of God it can cause them great guilt after commiting sin while knowing him.

Stephen

BranchoftheVine
Dec 22nd 2007, 05:36 PM
I will say this one last time. I didn't come around to agreeing. I have always believed that those who repent are forgiven. It's not something you led me to believe. It's a basic concept of Christianity.

That is why I said "agreement/correction." I wasn't sure which one it was. All I knew is that you agreed with the points I brought out, thus, you probably carried agreement inside already -- thus, I didn't correct you, I only brought more out of you with the points I presented.

On all subjects, but especially on touchy subjects (like the unforgivable sin), I feel it is absolutely essential we balance all of Scripture, and thus, what we say reflects the whole Bible. As we discuss, I feel the way we express ourselves, in this "age of grace" should naturally involve talk of His grace, His mercy, His love, His forgiveness in the midst of sin and a fallen world. It is not only because the Scriptures show us that fact about Himself, but because we've each been shown His amazing grace ourselves, so we go show and tell it to others. We don't know who is reading these boards. We don't want somebody to feel pulled under the OT law, the ministry of condemnation. That's all.

BrotherMark: I agree! :-)

MMC
Dec 23rd 2007, 01:35 AM
Hi folks. In light of eternity, isn't it better if we don't take things on the board too personal?

Why, yes, Brother Mark! :D There you are again...being the voice of reason, patience, humility, love......sheesh....what are ya? Christian or something?? ;)