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hootinannie
Dec 20th 2007, 06:20 AM
I was going to put this in another thread, on Edification, but changed my mind because it might not be seen there, and it needs to be seen. I've been really grieving in my spirit for the last several days, and I believe that I must be obedient to the Holy Spirit to speak the words of correction that He has been using to correct me.

For the last couple of days, I've been reading but not doing much posting. I've been reading thread after thread, and I am appalled at the number of threads that start out peacefully enough, but soon disintegrate into arguments. Now you can CALL them "debates", but what they really are is arguments. A person can call a skunk a rose, too, but that doesn't make the skunk smell any better.

I've been asking myself "where's the love?"...."where's the edification?"... "where's the encouragement?"..."in what way are we glorifying God here?"... "how are we honoring God?"...."how are we reflecting His nature and character?"

I am as guilty as everyone else. I have been drawn into disagreements and arguments as well, so when I throw stones, I must first throw them straight up in the air, so that they hit me first. I have sinned. I have been guilty of dishonoring my Lord and shaming the name of Christ. I went to the Bible and began to remind myself how it is we're supposed to be acting toward each other. Here are only a FEW of the many verses I found JUST in the New Testament:

John 13:34-35
34 "A new command (this is not a suggestion) I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
NIV
Rom 12:9-12
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love . Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.
NIV
1 Cor 8:1-3
We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.
NIV
Eph 4:1-3
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love . 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
NIV
Phil 2:1-4
2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love , if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love , being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.NIV
1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.
NIV
1 Peter 4:8
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
NIV
1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands (love one another as I have loved you) is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
NIV
1 John 3:8-10
9 No one who is born of God will (deliberately) continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on (deliberately) sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
NIV
1 John 3:16
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
NIV
James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin .
KJV

And, of course, 1 Corinthians 13...I think we all know what THAT says.

We know the Word of God. We know to do good...to obey...to love one another, but we "doeth it not" and to us it is sin. We can call it anything we want to call it, but it doesn't change what it is. It is what it is. We need to call it what it is and deal with it. We need to repent and humble ourselves before God and each other. We need to begin to build each other up instead of tearing each other down and making each other feel stupid or insignificant. We need to stop telling each other where they are wrong and we are right. We need to stop playing one-ups-man-ship and insisting on winning. What is more important?....being "right" or being right before God? Shall we flaunt our Bible knowledge at the risk of making someone else feel dumb or spiritually "less-than"? Do we realize that when we do that, we are guilty of spiritual intimidation?

How dare we call ourselves Christians and bring dishonor and disgrace and shame on the one whose precious name we have taken? We take His name in vain. The sword of the Spirit is not to be used to cut each other to shreds...that's not what it's for.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. As long as we are fighting among ourselves, we are no threat to the enemy....he laughs at us. And don't think he doesn't have his hand in all this.

I don't know about you, but I am ashamed of myself for allowing myself to be drawn into the fracas and to bring disgrace upon the name of Jesus. I came here to encourage and to edify, to comfort and strengthen, and I have been as guilty as anyone else.

I fully expect that there will be those who don't see anything wrong with what's been going on, and that grieves me even more.

I must say this, though, that this board is a LOT better than most that are out there...that is to its credit...but that does not excuse us from our guilt.

I want to leave the post with this scripture:

Rom 15:5-7
5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. NIV

(And that includes me, too)

Humbled and sorry,
Hoot

Duane Morse
Dec 20th 2007, 08:39 AM
And in the end, we must all speak our mind and heart as the Spirit directs us.

Jesus said many things that divided, as well - to many different groups.
Even among His own.
He called some vipers, some even Satan.

Was He acting, and speaking, within love and the Holy Spirit - or not?

hootinannie
Dec 20th 2007, 08:59 AM
And in the end, we must all speak our mind and heart as the Spirit directs us.

Jesus said many things that divided, as well - to many different groups.
Even among His own.
He called some vipers, some even Satan.

Was He acting, and speaking, within love and the Holy Spirit - or not?

The problem is, we are not the sinless Son of God who had the Spirit without measure, and we too often speak our minds when the Holy Spirit ISN'T directing us.

Duane Morse
Dec 20th 2007, 09:01 AM
The problem is, we are not the sinless Son of God who had the Spirit without measure, and we too often speak our minds when the Holy Spirit ISN'T directing us.
And that, is simply the problem with being 'human' - and not God, as Jesus is.

hootinannie
Dec 20th 2007, 09:17 AM
And that, is simply the problem with being 'human' - and not God, as Jesus is.

So do we excuse our lack of love and lack of obedience to His command to love by just saying "we're human"? Jesus would not have told us to do something that our "humaness" made it impossible to do. He has given us everything we need to live Godly, so when we don't, we are without excuse. David, when guilty, took responsibility for his own sin and said, "I am the man". We can come up with every excuse in the book to justify the way we act, or we can kneel in the presence of God and say "I am the man"...I am guilty. Which do you think God would prefer?

Soj
Dec 20th 2007, 09:36 AM
Yep guilty as charged! I've done my share of confessing sin and repenting as the result of unChristian-like behaviour on this site, I've had long breaks away from it in disgust of some of the things I've read, yet I am still here and enjoying it more than ever. But I've learned to keep the following thoughts always in mind:

BibleForums is NOT a Church.
There are MANY differing opinions within the membership here.
There are many professing Christians on this site, NONE whom I've ever met in person.
In general I feel a respect shown to others by MOST members.
If I don't like something someone has said, most of the time now I simply IGNORE them and read the next post.
I DON'T take anything personally.

The above points help me to keep my sanity intact and hold on to my peace in here, but it took a while for me to come to those conclusions...

Duane Morse
Dec 20th 2007, 09:47 AM
So do we excuse our lack of love and lack of obedience to His command to love by just saying "we're human"? Jesus would not have told us to do something that our "humaness" made it impossible to do. He has given us everything we need to live Godly, so when we don't, we are without excuse. David, when guilty, took responsibility for his own sin and said, "I am the man". We can come up with every excuse in the book to justify the way we act, or we can kneel in the presence of God and say "I am the man"...I am guilty. Which do you think God would prefer?
Both.

We are guilty, because we are human.
Period.

We can not fulfill what Jesus did.
None of has ever done it, and none of us ever will - or can.

When saying - I am 'the man' - what is that saying?

Is it saying that - I am the Man, so that I am the Ultimate?
Or, is it saying - I am the man, and I need the help of the Lord.
?

De 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
1ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
1ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
Pr 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.



So then, if we are not perfect - are we not accepted, none the less?
(because of, and in our, belief)

Which of us is perfect, in His sight?



Our 'humaness' makes it impossible for us to reach unto God.
Because our humaness, by its very nature, makes it impossible for us to be one with God.

Jesus bridges that gap - by bringing God to the humaness - and the humaness to God.

Friend of I AM
Dec 20th 2007, 11:17 AM
Hoot has some very good points. Thank you for that apology. And let me apologize as well if I indeed have come across as less than humble in any of my testimonies. Hoot I invite and encourage you to post in the edification thread your opinions/thoughts - particularly those in which you think would assist others. God bless.

Stephen

Dan Moran
Dec 20th 2007, 02:04 PM
And in the end, we must all speak our mind and heart as the Spirit directs us.

Jesus said many things that divided, as well - to many different groups.
Even among His own.
He called some vipers, some even Satan.

Was He acting, and speaking, within love and the Holy Spirit - or not?
God says in the book of Corinthians that He is not the author of confusion, so in essense as we walk out to be the ambassadors He's called us out to be, we would represent the Father without such confusion. Religions are born when people take certain scripture out of context. Your "Jesus said" statement has no reference whatsoever.

Colossians 4:6

Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

I've been trying to reintroduce scripture to these threads and its disheartening to see those threads run down to the bottom and then off the page all within hours of their posting. Are we truly, via the heart, desiring to amply God and His glory?

Truth is not relevent, and anyone who believes such is duped by man (obviously not showing outwardly the fruits of the spirit), while in the same breath blaming God that He's not capable of protecting such a sacred Word from his own creation. <--- I've heard this before in threads of the past, how man over the years has screwed up God's Word, therefore you can not accept it as infallible truth. I have yet to see anything in the house claim dominion over the home owner.

Matthew 5:13

You are the salt of the earth: but if the salt has lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

There is a sense of spiritual responsiblity if one is truly born of God to speak with the truth of God behind their words for the sake of the little ones, newly born to Christ that they not become confused; because as we know God is not the author of this.

We fail God when we input materials that feed the fire.

Proverbs 15:10

Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

Lyndie
Dec 20th 2007, 02:27 PM
I completely agree with you Hoot, and I myself have been guilty. Sometimes we think we are the only ones who are right, right down to telling people the commentaries they use are wrong. Sometimes different people get different things from scripture, but some will come in and say "That's not what it means, I know more than you so listen to me or you will go to h8ll." That's nothing but pride. I'm not speaking of false teaching, but we are not clones, and we all have a difference of opinion on things. But it's not another posters job to tell me I'm wrong, that's God's job. Someone can instruct me or guide me, but it comes down to the Holy Spirit in the end to do the convicting.
When and if we guide/change someone's mind about something, do we give credit to God, or are we saying "I won, I did it, I changed them."? Are we doing it for them, or ourselves?

Scruffy Kid
Dec 20th 2007, 02:34 PM
The issue that hoot raises is a very important one, IMO.

We live in a world where many people are closed to Christianity. The 1st letter of Peter was written to Christians living in just such a world. Peter (3:4) urges us to adorn ourselves with graciousness so that "the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" may by our example bring those around us to Christ. Peter goes on (3:8-11) to tell us " Finally, be all of one mind, having compassion one to another, love as brethren, be merciful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it."

This command is not just Peter's: powerful passages from James, from the Sermon on the mount, from Jude, and many other passages of Scripture, OT and NT, urge us to be gentle and courteous in speech, not just superficially, but expressing genuine love and humility. These things are important both because they are marks of being Christian which will win people to Christ and confirm people in their Christian walk, and also because they are elements of our obedience to Christ, and to all God's commands, and because by walking that way we are praying more deeply, joining ourselves to God.

But in fact, in todays society, Christians are often known as rude and arrogant and quarrelsome. Whether or not that is a fair stereotype, what is clear is that there is far too much willingness on the part of those who are serious Christians to get into barbed exchanges with one another, outsiders, and even members of our families. This is a major area of sin, according to the New Testament writers: it's a big part of what they condemn as worldliness.

Thus, we need to change: change ourselves, change our hearts, and change the Christian culture to make it one of graciousness and humility and wholesome speech. Hoot's post is an important call to us, I think!
"

Semi-tortured
Dec 20th 2007, 04:11 PM
Nice post hoot. I COMPLETELY agree. I try to stay away from them and I have even wrote posts talking about how a non-christian coming to this board would run for the hills with all the arguing that is done over some pretty important doctrinal differences. But in the end I get dragged into arguments and I have gotten pretty heated myself at times.

Pride. It was behind the fall of Satan. It was behind the fall of man. It's behind us arguing until we are blue in the face so we can be right and convince the other person that we are right. Yes, there are those who genuinely want to help others because they feel they are being led astray. But there are many others who merely want to convince others of their view because in doing so it gives them that ego boost.

Duane Morse
Dec 20th 2007, 04:58 PM
God says in the book of Corinthians that He is not the author of confusion, ...
And yet, so many are confused and confounded by what they read in the Bible.

Heck, people can not even agree about the first 2 chapters of Genesis because there are so many ways of looking at it.


So that about God 'not being the author of confusion' is misleading as all-get-out.

hootinannie
Dec 20th 2007, 05:01 PM
Both.

We are guilty, because we are human.
Period.

We can not fulfill what Jesus did.
None of has ever done it, and none of us ever will - or can.

When saying - I am 'the man' - what is that saying?

Is it saying that - I am the Man, so that I am the Ultimate?
Or, is it saying - I am the man, and I need the help of the Lord.

David was saying "I am the man" in confession of his guilt, and was taking the responsibility for his own sin, rather than making excuses for it.

De 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
1ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
1ki 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
Pr 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So then, if we are not perfect - are we not accepted, none the less?
(because of, and in our, belief)

Which of us is perfect, in His sight?

Humaness is no excuse. In our own selves, we would fail to be loving, but God has given us His Spirit to enable us to obey Him. Love for others is a major theme of the New Testament...it is a command, and the commandments of God are not grievous....we CAN be loving and kind, some just choose not to be. Scripture says (and I gave the verses in my OP) that if we call ourselves Christians and we DON'T love, we are liars.


1 John 2:3-4 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands (love one another as I have loved you) is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The Holy Spirit, through John the beloved, even goes so far as to say that if we do not love our brother, that we are not even children of God, but are children of the devil.


1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.


I'm not going to argue with you about this. You will do what you will do, and apparently you will continue to make excuses. You don't have to answer to me....but you DO have to answer to God.

Duane Morse
Dec 20th 2007, 05:10 PM
Humaness is no excuse.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. You will do what you will do, and apparently you will continue to make excuses. You don't have to answer to me....but you DO have to answer to God.
Good to see that at least someone around here never sins.

Ayala
Dec 20th 2007, 05:15 PM
Luke 6:27-49...

hootinannie
Dec 20th 2007, 05:16 PM
Good to see that at least someone around here never sins.

Reread my OP...you will see that I have admitted to being just as guilty as anyone else.

Hoot

Duane Morse
Dec 20th 2007, 05:23 PM
Reread my OP...you will see that I have admitted to being just as guilty as anyone else.

Hoot
OK.
So then. what is your excuse?

hootinannie
Dec 20th 2007, 05:28 PM
OK.
So then. what is your excuse?

I don't have one. I am guilty.

Gard
Dec 20th 2007, 05:41 PM
Good post Hoot. I admit that after being "questioned" about a couple of my opinions I am somewhat gun shy about posting right now. It keeps me out of trouble as I tend to be a bit blunt at times.

Amazedgrace21
Dec 20th 2007, 06:03 PM
IMHo..we can allow sin to become an excuse..and we really don't have one at all when it comes to allowing this to carry on in terms of how we shift it around and put it on the back burner of responsibility.

I shared thisin another thread..


There is another category of people who are willing to acknowledge that they have sinned, but then try to excuse their sin as though they are not responsible for it. .

Over the years, I have heard more people use this tactic than any other in trying to avoid the problem of guilt. I have listened to husbands who have blamed all of their problems on their wives and wives who have blamed all of their problems on their husbands. I have listened to young people explain to me that their parents made them run away from home. I have heard people blame things on God, the devil, and the church, but in every one of these cases they never came to grips with their own problems. Excusing your sin and its guilt will never resolve the problem.

Freedom from guilt is not something that we can merely develop within ourselves. It is not something that we can resolve by suppressing it into our subconscious minds or blaming others.


Guilt must be acknowledged and the mistake that produced it must be confessed. The blood of Jesus Christ must be applied. Our lives must become transformed by the grace of God's forgiveness.

Psalm 32:5, "I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid". David confessed his sin, and it was then that he experienced God's forgiveness.

By the end of the psalm, he was able to be glad in the Lord, and rejoice (Psalm 32:11).

(1) Understand Your need.

The key to getting rid of guilt is to recognize that only God can take it away and cleanse your conscience. When we realize that we have sinned not only against individuals but against God Himself, then we will begin to understand why it is so important that we have God's forgiveness. I believe that David fully recognized this.



Now I understood perfectly well that Hoot has been directing her concerns towards a behavior that she is very convicted about when it comes to something that we all need a reminder to "examine" as well

Is there any disagreement about this that has merit to pursue as unsound or unworthy?

IMHO..absolutely not..what was shared as an observation of what has distressed her, is something I personally relate to..and , 'nope', none of us are perfect in God's sight..

But then is it also true that we can find ourselves 'making excuses' why this has to remain status quo.. so we can continue to indulge in our immaturity?

Apparently "status quo", is not an acceptable answer from Christ's perspective, if we read Rev.3..there is going tobe a response if we are not "changing" and seking to be conformed to His image and heart..some serious "spanking" may be expected from the Father for kids who are his and He loves..and one of the ways He keeps us accountable is to engage in discussions about this topic..to leave the ego's, the pride, the 'self' out of it, to go to the Word and learn the "Holy Spirit's Rules of Order", opposed to Robert's in doing so when we interact with one another.

The first order of the proceedings is to "love"..edify our Lord, with getting our heart in the right position with His before we get busy, with anothers heart..we can be different in our understandings and opinions, our preferences, etc..what we may not be is out of Gods will with how we engage one another ..we all without any 'excuse' at all for our human spirt getting ahead of the Holy Spirit whenit comes to much..

That does not mean we should never engage another with a problem and the need for resolutions that will involve a lot "of discussion" but there is a huge distinction if we are present as a Servant of the truth to serve others in a loving manner..

The Bible tells us that no matter what difficulties or what circumstances we face, we are to bear Christ’s likeness. We are to edify and encourage one another just as Jesus did, not tear each other down. God doesn’t want us to just have a revelation of Christ, He wants us to be a reflection of Christ.

If for some reason a confrontation is needed, then we not only must be sensitive to the Lord’s timing in which to do it, but also the Christ-like character that it is given in. No matter what the circumstances, simply being born in the spirit at our new birth is not enough. We need to learn how to walk in the Spirit, how to show forth His Love and how to live His Life. We need to put in our actions what we already possess in our heart.

The Bible tells us that our purpose is to be conformed into the image of Christ so that we can glorify Him in all we do. “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son.” (Romans 8:29)We are to bear witness of God’s image, not our own.


Like Peter we sometimes need to learn that we can not trust our own resolve when it comes to much..but we can always trust the character of Christ. Christ was willing to submit Himself to washing other's feet to teach us how to serve others..what true ,loving and humble service is.Peter was a great example of someone who's life summed up what he learned to be able to be used by Christ to be the rock that Christ built his Church upon.:hug:


Heck, people can not even agree about the first 2 chapters of Genesis because there are so many ways of looking at it.



So perhaps this observation does indeed have a resolution and a response that there is no "excuse for", :hmm: it seems the things we can and should agree upon are indeed present to pursue ..instead of more groaning, more growing in grace perhaps? Love sure seesm to balance the discrepencies between the two when it comes to much.:)

"Grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." ( 2Peter 3:16)

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 20th 2007, 06:21 PM
Good to see that at least someone around here never sins.

What a staggering misinterpretation! There's such a gap between what she said and your reaction, it's hard for me to believe that you even read it- and if you did, that you didn't intentionally take it the wrong way.

Simple question, then- Which should be dominant in us, the striving for perfection, or acceptance that we will always ultimately fail, and with it a justification for not trying hard enough? If that comes across like a leading question, it's because there's very obviously only one way to answer it, if we are indeed to call ourselves Christian.

But of course, that's just my opinion, If you disagree I'd be fascinated to hear why.

jesuslover1968
Dec 20th 2007, 06:33 PM
All I can say is AMEN!! Great OP. Thank you so much for putting into words what we ALL need to hear and heed.
I also am guilty and post very little because I tend "argue" ( debate ) It is something I believe God is working with me on. You gave such good scripture. Truly a well thought out and loving, CHRISTIAN post. God Bless.

Frances
Dec 20th 2007, 06:41 PM
if we call ourselves Christians and we DON'T love, we are liars..

Perhaps I might point out that it is not loving to say nothing when a post seems to be (even slightly) off the straight and narrow pathway; it is sometimes loving to say, even very bluntly, 'you are wrong'. It is through discussion that the Truth usually becomes clear.

I agree that there is no need for unpleasantness; and that it has been rightly said in the past that it is usually possible to 'prove' any point of view using texts from Scripture, also it may be helpful to remember that to 'quote scripture out of context will often lead to a pretext'.

Having said that, I agree that it does no good at all if discussion gets heated - perhaps the difference in our personalities has a bearing on our posts; personally, I usually put my point of view, and rarely return to that thread again unless pecifically led to do so . . . .

Friend of I AM
Dec 20th 2007, 06:41 PM
Duane makes some good points. Blind obedience, without questioning is not good. So many people today are spiritually blind due to not being bold enough to question or study what they're being taught. Oversensitive to the feelings of those around them, so much so to neglecting to inform others with the Truth, out of fear of reprimand and/or isolation from the group. I've read in here many times - people saying things about this being the most overused line within the bible..

"God is not the author of confusion"

well perhaps another line used almost nearly as much is the following"

"those who cause dischord amongst bretheren, are not showing love..so they do not love their brother"

Or something along those lines. Please take note and remember what the Lord said to his disciples.

Matthew 10:34, Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

The word of God is a double edged sword, it pierces us to our very souls, and allows to discern Truth from error, right from wrong. Let us not get complacent in regards to rebuke, whether it be offensive to us or otherwise. Instead, let us test ourselves when we hear it - making sure we are able to quickly respond to it and correct ourselves like true disciples of the Lord.

Stephen

MMC
Dec 20th 2007, 06:48 PM
I just wanna learn, dang it! Hard to do with all y'all throwin verses here in there, and in and out of context all the time. I don't even understand half the posts. Sheesh! :rolleyes:

LOL! :lol:

Great post, Hoot! I too am guilty of posting in pride instead of humility at times. I'm trying to listen more and speak less... Being on this board has helped me realize just how ignorant of scripture I actually am, and has inspired me to read more of His word. (Thought I'd let everyone know what a blessing this has been to me - so its not all negative, guys!)

For myself, at least, I really just need to pay less attention to what other people are saying *about* scripture, and more time just reading and praying about what it actually says, and then letting the Lord lead me to a right understanding of it!

Semi-tortured
Dec 20th 2007, 06:58 PM
Perhaps I might point out that it is not loving to say nothing when a post seems to be (even slightly) off the straight and narrow pathway. It is through discussion that the Truth usually becomes clear.


I wish I could agree with that, but from my personal experience, this board and it's arguments have clouded my view on a great, many things I thought I was sure of before. Some things are so clouded I just have given up and decided I'll find out in heaven. Granted, I have come to realize I was mistaken on some issues, but I must say that there are several arguments that take place on this board that leave me scratching my head with no possible way of deciphering the truth without direct verbal confirmation from Jesus himself.

The problem is despite the fact that a person is saved, they can still misinterpret something. Where it becomes a bigger problem is most people think that because they are saved, their interpretation is straight from God's heart. I personally believe a great deal of the people on this site that disagree are saved. I'd say most. But the fact that there are disagreements on some major issues confirms that there are many saved people running around with what they believe is God's truth, and it really isn't.

Discussion is one thing, but at some point, discussion becomes a contest of who can spin their wheels the fastest. It leads nowhere. From my experience, the wheel spinning usually starts about 5 pages into a thread and continues for about 15 or more pages until the thread is locked.

cheech
Dec 20th 2007, 07:05 PM
Sad to say it does happen hoot...then again, no matter how much of a Christian we are, we are all human and fall into the worldly pattern at times, myself included :rolleyes:.

That is why we must do everything we can to set an example of the way Christ taught. He did not go about screaming and yelling and getting angry (although he did have his moments as at the temple). He knew when to speak and when not too. I find this board a real test in my ways of getting His word across. If I can get upset here and a bit sarcastic, then maybe this is how I'm coming across to those in real life whom I meet. If I find myself stepping back and not saying anything further when something gets heated, then I need to follow this a bit more closely in my own life also. I've had a few instances over the last couple years where I would step back and really look at how I'm handling myself which really made me think. I do see improvement but I also see where I need improvement as well.

We are only here to plant the seed and water it, not force others to swallow that seed. It is in God's hands to make that seed grow. Getting upset when we don't see eye to eye won't make either side agree with each other any quicker. Humans... :rolleyes: :saint:

Amazedgrace21
Dec 20th 2007, 08:19 PM
Matthew 10:34, Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.



I think the operative word here IMHO, is "I", this is the Holy Spirit's job, not ours..we are not the "truth" or to be the "sword"..:)

Perhaps we forget sometimes that we are not all cut from the same paths and experiences in life and would naturally be looking at things from a variety of perspectives..different stages of maturity...

For instance, when I was in the throes of my divorce..and my world was defined by those experiences,I had a completely different position in terms of how I needed to relate to my personal experience of leaning upon God for all of this..the experience refined my insights and understandings of what it means to be a Christian as I went through this season as one..

So how I would apply this experience at what insights it brought me to in terms of my faith would be more relevent to those who were going through this yet foreign to someone who had not..where someone who has been blessed with a marraige that has withstood this test and came through it even in the face of some of the similar challanges, would have yet another perspective shared with them form the Holy Spirit in terms of what they would have to offer.

A single adult or widower, would have yet other perspectives..and like a tapestry we all rely upon a similar thread of what the Word of God has harvested in terms of "fruit" yet each one of us have a different "portrait" of our faith to share with others to edify both Christ and the Body of Christ.


I think we can be rightly charged as being guilty on occasion making a propganda out of the truth and some personal experience we have had and turn it into a "public relations" sort of campaign..Christ's strategy for advancing the Kingdom hinged upon His choice to work through the the instrumentality of 12 very 'fallible" human beings..the Holy Spirit is the power that ultimately makes the seeds grow..

This tended to outrage the Pharisees who saw themselves as the "masters" of the sword and the truth...nor were one of the men Jesus chose theologicaly trained or part of the religious nobility.

Yet Christ also said to all believers, "Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" Matthew 5:48. In other words, nothing is going to make us perfect but we can become perfected and God does indeed use the unworthy and unqualified. The power of the truth is in God's Word..and God does the chosing of who does the speaking for Him and which fruit will remain (John 15:16)

No applicants or volunteers were sought by Christ..and perhaps this is what we once again need to keep focus upon when observing what we "see and find" in anyone's post:


when a post seems to be (even slightly) off the straight and narrow pathway. It is through discussion that the Truth usually becomes clear.


IMHO, we can allow the Holy Spirit to make the truth "clear" by sharing what we have been taught and if needed point out an "error" or untruth that we have been given the authority by the Holy Spirit to be the one who has this task..

Now if the discussion turns away from sharing this in the spirit of love..and digresses to correcting anothers "technique" or demading ones own personal standard be the qualifying factor of godliness and true spirituality..then IMHO this is absolutely wrong..and a responsibility to step forward and bring this to light..no matter what the reception is..
We can all be amazingly thick headed at times..none of usare sper holy luminaries of light that elevate us above our brothers and sister's in Christ or any sinner.

It's a brilliant reminder that "our faith should not be in the wisdom of men but the power of God" 1 Cor. 2:5 Jesus took care of this probelm whenit came to the apsotles..he modeled servanthood, he humbled himself even onto death on the cross..he washed feet. He also corrected them when they were too self reliant upon the wrong principles of what He wanted them to learn..about faith, about commitment and the power of love.

These Fruits of the Spirit they lacked and reminded them about their own falibilites of being "illiterate ignoramuses" from a worldly viewpoint in terms of what they perceived was a spiritual truth or strength opposed to a liability and Christ also taught the greatest of these was "love".

If we are going to minister to one another in we don't need to be so focused upon anothers perspective of Christ as much as we simply need to be alert to our own reckless tendencies first to not trust God to do the convicting and instead simply allow ourselves to be the servants He uses to deliver the message IMHO..and assume the best rather than the worst..

Sometimes we may find ourselves surprised like David and Peter, that we have confused who the message is really for that has convicted us to be heard, that God is trying to get "our attention" about something we need to hear about ourselves with much more need and urgency than someone else needs to hear from us, about them.:hug:

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 20th 2007, 08:48 PM
It is through discussion that the Truth usually becomes clear.
That's a nice thought, but does it really? It's through discussion that everyone makes a great effort to make their own opinion clear, but do we ever come to a conclusion, to a concensus on the real truth of the matter? For that matter, do we set out with this as a focus, a target? I'd say we almost exclusively don't.

Should we be doing so, now there's a question :D

RoadWarrior
Dec 20th 2007, 08:50 PM
I was going to put this in another thread, on Edification, but changed my mind because it might not be seen there, and it needs to be seen. I've been really grieving in my spirit for the last several days, and I believe that I must be obedient to the Holy Spirit to speak the words of correction that He has been using to correct me.
...

Rom 15:5-7
5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. NIV

(And that includes me, too)

Humbled and sorry,
Hoot

Hoot this is awesome, thank you so much for this confession and exhortation. We need it!

And I say amen to the scripture/prayer you posted at the bottom.

It is a beautiful thing to see God doing a work in someone, and I see a huge leap of growth in you. First to recognize the problem, it is because you have heard the heart of the Spirit and responded to it. Second, to have the courage to speak up; it shows clearly in the responses that you receive, the ones who understand what you are saying and also respond to that nudge from Him.

You are precious and dear!

RoadWarrior
Dec 20th 2007, 08:53 PM
That's a nice thought, but does it really? It's through discussion that everyone makes a great effort to make their own opinion clear, but do we ever come to a conclusion, to a concensus on the real truth of the matter? For that matter, do we set out with this as a focus, a target? I'd say we almost exclusively don't.

Should we be doing so, now there's a question :D

Hi ID,

Good question. I'd say there is a good reason why the Board developers have forums for Controversial and World Religions, etc. Maybe we'd all do better to pay more attention to which forum we are posting in.

Duane Morse
Dec 20th 2007, 09:48 PM
It's funny.

I was not 'making excuses', I was simply offering an explaination.

We simply can not lead sinless lives, period.
And the reason is, simply, because we are human. We make mistakes, sometimes by choice, sometimes through bad judgement, sometimes through malice.

Hoot's attitude is what I was responding to, because she tried to turn things around by accusing me of making excuses.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 20th 2007, 10:13 PM
Hoot, thank you for a timely reminder about love and unity.

I agree much with Frances points.
Yes we have to have unity, but can we have unity in error.
It is not loving if we avoid admonishing one another, but we should do it with gentleness.

We are told that we should be like minded

Php 2:1 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and acts of compassion,
Php 2:2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being united in spirit, intending the same purpose,
Php 2:3 doing nothing according to selfish ambition or conceit, but with humility, regarding one another as being better than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look out not only for his own concerns, but also for the concerns of others.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,

I think a problem (well at least for me) is having the ability to put yourself across on a forum.
It is very much different then it is when face to face with someone.
A person can often be misunderstood, not because of what they say, but because of their ability or lack of it, to express themselves. If I write something or read something in large or bold letter, are they shouting or emphasising. If someone puts a wink or a smile in the post, is it tongue in cheek, or 'I am being friendly'

For most of us, I am sure that if we met one another face to face, we would be something very different, to the images we build up of one another in our minds. The manner of our conversations would be much different.

I also believe that there will inevitably be wolves among us, and I have to ask, how do we approach and expose them in an open public forum?

I do admit that I do get heated in some threads. Especially when I see others being heavy laden, robbed of peace and joy. Being led away from truth into error.

Hoot, having read many of your posts, I see you also as one who has experienced the word. It is not just doctrine written down, but living testimony of God's goodness and mercy.

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:

Amazedgrace21
Dec 20th 2007, 10:57 PM
It's funny.

I was not 'making excuses', I was simply offering an explaination.

We simply can not lead sinless lives, period.
And the reason is, simply, because we are human. We make mistakes, sometimes by choice, sometimes through bad judgement, sometimes through malice.

Hoot's attitude is what I was responding to, because she tried to turn things around by accusing me of making excuses.

DING! DING! DING! ( or BINGO!):)

This brings everything into focus here and I am gonna prayerfully ask folks to bear with me here on these observations..

This is a perfect example of where things go wrong..and sincerely, I am not trying to be critical or judgemental towards you DM..I would like to focus upon the resolution of how things get so fouled up so quickly..

This is the second time you felt a personal attack was directed at you obviously and you responded to what you perceived as an attitude attacking you with "deploying" your own attitude, the means justified the end in terms of "justifying"..

Hoot spoke to something in very general terms in regard to the profound conviction she felt placed upon her to do so..many of her thoughts and sentiments were shared with the scriptural basis of what was convicting her, or "her atittude" as you called it..

The problem is, we are not the sinless Son of God who had the Spirit without measure, and we too often speak our minds when the Holy Spirit ISN'T directing us.....Hoot's statement of the problem


And that, is simply the problem with being 'human' - and not God, as Jesus is.....Duanne Morris's statement of the problem

~~~~~~

Both of you focused in upon our humanity as the issue..and this is so very true..

Yet Hoot went a step further in narrowing down the problem in her perspective and turned to scripture to seek the solutions God prescribes for our "human issues"..and with all due respect Duanne Morris..you let it lie there and went "oh well..!!!:("

I don't know if this was intentional..but for Hoot and others here.."OH WELL!:(" doesn't seem like a place we have to stop at as we try to approach the word of God for an answer..and clearly was deeply convicted that there are answers..frankly so am I..and others..

And this as far as you went with an answer:


Our 'humaness' makes it impossible for us to reach unto God.
Because our humaness, by its very nature, makes it impossible for us to be one with God.

Jesus bridges that gap - by bringing God to the humaness - and the humaness to God.

Thats where IMHO, you both got your wires crossed..:hug:..it happens to all of us..and this is where we can take something like this and "use it" or "lose it" as an opportunity here to edify God and set an example for others..by simply knock off the bull-only about attitudes and all the other yada yada..blah blah, boo hoo's..



Quote:
Originally Posted by hootinannie http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1477568#post1477568)
Humaness is no excuse.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. You will do what you will do, and apparently you will continue to make excuses. You don't have to answer to me....but you DO have to answer to God.

Good to see that at least someone around here never sins.


This happened to me in a thread I started..and in a forum where it was the last place in the world I anticipated it arriving or even going to the level it did..and trust me , I was very upset over it, but it was not a personal issue for me..I was deeply grieved that we didn't SUCCED..IN WORKING towards a resolution where the desire "to be understand" was met with a "desire to be understood", that respect and a loving attitude was present in the spirit of what was being shared and why..

Instead the effort was not demonstrated to do so by all the involved to just get to the bottom line what was going wrong there..and I personaly stepped away from the board for a while why I took this under prayerful consideration to examine my role in all of this..to have "my attitude" checked.

That is basically what this thread is all about here..attitude checks and is saying we are human a scriptural excuse to not strive for better results..

While we can not live 'sinless' lives ..can we not find scriptural instruction how to reflect Christ's spirit and character in our "attitude' towards others and should we not be starting there before we point out another's attitude?:hmm:

Duanne Morris,with all due respect..you sort have made the point here that is exactly what you had a choice to make about Hoot's question.

"if we can" and does it does come down to a choice, "if" we can?

The scripture that has been shared here suggests "we can" by then none of us have an excuse that 'cut's it' when we say we don't!

That is no joke IMHO, when we don't step up to the plate and seek explanations from the Holy Spirit how to approach things like this but I am "hopeful" if we seek the attitude of Christ's heart in trying to be less human things can always improve and our fruit will bring the glory to God that He so richly deserves.:hug:


We are only here to plant the seed and water it, not force others to swallow that seed. It is in God's hands to make that seed grow. Getting upset when we don't see eye to eye won't make either side agree with each other any quicker. Humans... :rolleyes: :saint:

Amen Cheech!

MMC
Dec 21st 2007, 12:31 AM
Please pardon the interruption, but...is this the kind of thing that ought to go to the "Cooler"...and...if not, what is the "Cooler" for??

I'm a little new here...but it seems when emotions start getting heavily involved and a thread turns into something accusatory, it ought to be dealt with in private and with godly counsel from a moderator.

mizzdy
Dec 21st 2007, 01:04 AM
I just have to say wow, it isn't often I see forum members, christian or not, care enough about the environment they are in to actually have a dialogue about it. It makes my heart warm. I am very new here and am just beginning to look around but I have to say it is one of the niceist ones I have come across for a long time. I am not a big poster on any forums since I tend to see mostly name calling and the like, it really is a huge turn off and it is easy to see why those outside and by some inside as well, that christianity is fragmented. Sometimes watching the 'discussions' that go on remind me of the Torah studies, the students it seems must 'debate' till they come to a consciences or at least that is how it was explained to me.

I think that healthy discussion is good what we as humans can't seem to overcome is the will to be in charge or right in our own thinking or interpertations. Yet in there somewhere amoungst all these different debates there is truth and perhaps by making them public the Holy Spirit will guide someone to one of these discussions and that persons eyes and ears will be opened. I know this has happened to me and why I was led to this forum. I had been wrestling with something hard in my life and somehow I ended up linked to here and viola there was the answer I needed. So I think we all need someplace like this where we can interact in ways that some of us might not be able to otherwise. When I do post I always try and keep in my mind that I do not want to be a stumbling block to anyone with my words nor do I want to hurt others with them either. I don't always succeed but I pray daily for help.

Dan Moran
Dec 21st 2007, 01:07 AM
And yet, so many are confused and confounded by what they read in the Bible.

Heck, people can not even agree about the first 2 chapters of Genesis because there are so many ways of looking at it.


So that about God 'not being the author of confusion' is misleading as all-get-out.
That as well as thousands of other scriptures were nothing more than spiritually inspired. I already know your position, sir.

MMC
Dec 21st 2007, 01:10 AM
I just have to say wow, it isn't often I see forum members, christian or not, care enough about the environment they are in to actually have a dialogue about it. It makes my heart warm.


I agree, mizzdy!! You make an excellent point. I was drawn here for the same reason!

Oh...and :hug:

Welcome to BF!!!

kimilmela
Dec 21st 2007, 01:18 AM
Just my humble opinion, but this thread seems to all ready be providing the perfect example of what the OP is talking about!
And it doesn't seem very loving to me either....
If I wasn't all ready a christian but had just stumbled on this thread from another source, I must admit I don't know whether I would be bothering to post this now....or whether I would have just run away thinking 'christians are just the same as everyone else, despite what they say....' As I am a christian however, I can realise that different people are at different stages of the sanctification process, and that that affects how they react to others at times...but is that an excuse?
Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery' Your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more'. (John 8:11) Not 'your sins have been forgiven, so go and get sanctified for a few months, and then try your best to sin no more.'
The epistle writers make it clear throughout (especially Paul) that while sin is a battle we fight, we have the choice whether we give in to it or not.
My (personal) opinion regarding correction or reproof is that to be biblical it must be done in love....that, to me, means stating the facts, as we believe God has revealed them, but without resorting to personal insults.
Both have happened on the part of different people in this thread, and that makes me sad, as that is what the OP was concerned about and written to make us aware of.
This board is great, and it is amazing to be able to get so many biblical responses and opinions on virtually any issue just by asking, but we do need to remember that it can be accessed by anyone, anywhere with interent access, and therefore the way we deal with each other on here is still part of our christian witness, just as much as the way we reacty to our friends and work colleagues.

MMC
Dec 21st 2007, 01:23 AM
This board is great, and it is amazing to be able to get so many biblical responses and opinions on virtually any issue just by asking, but we do need to remember that it can be accessed by anyone, anywhere with interent access, and therefore the way we deal with each other on here is still part of our christian witness, just as much as the way we reacty to our friends and work colleagues.

Hence my "Cooler" question...which, as I understand it, is private and can't be viewed unless you have been granted access....??

Amazedgrace21
Dec 21st 2007, 02:43 AM
My (personal) opinion regarding correction or reproof is that to be biblical it must be done in love....that, to me, means stating the facts, as we believe God has revealed them, but without resorting to personal insults.
Both have happened on the part of different people in this thread, and that makes me sad, as that is what the OP was concerned about and written to make us aware of.


I too am very concerned that the OP has a very valid and important message that it imparts and thank Jan for sharing it.As always, you are a great blessing to many with your tender and proactive spirit.:hug:

That being said, in the event any of my comments were taken as insulting, I am deeply sorry and apologize for that, it was not my intention :cry:..it was my sincere desire to try to uphold the spirit and heart of what was being stressed and hopefully bring something constructive to the discussion to promote a dialogue,with as illustrations of how we can all improve in how we represent ourselves as a community of Christians.

It's not a simple or easy challange to take on but one I genuinely believe is such a worthy one and we all can be edified by as we grow in our walk as Christians at any age or station in life.

YSIC,
Grace

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 21st 2007, 05:46 AM
Hey, there, AG;




Yet Christ also said to all believers, "Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" Matthew 5:48. In other words, nothing is going to make us perfect but we can become perfected and God does indeed use the unworthy and unqualified. The power of the truth is in God's Word..and God does the chosing of who does the speaking for Him and which fruit will remain (John 15:16)

You speak the truth, and I think that most of us, myself included, have regretfully been guilty.
You must also remember, though, that the word for "perfect" here actually means spiritually mature, not perfect as in flawless.

Col. 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Jesus Christ

Heb. 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith towards God

The truth is, no one is perfect, and we won't BE perfect until He presents us as perfect on the Day of Christ....but until then, we can at least behave with the maturity expected of us, and not be so quick to behave in the flesh:

1 Cor. 3:3 For you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

The truth is, when we quarrel amongst ourselves, we cause divisions, and when we behave like that, it is nothing but the flesh at work.
With spiritual maturity comes wisdom, both of which are sorely lacking in some of the discussions I've encountered.
As humans, we are all hopelessly flawed, but that does not give us any excuse to act carnally, and to allow our disagreements to cause division within the body...and whether or not you guys realize it, this board DOES represent the Body of Christ.
Hootinannie speaks the truth, and the behaviour that she has described here, IMO, just shows a lack of spiritual maturity on our parts...plain and simple.


IMHO, we can allow the Holy Spirit to make the truth "clear" by sharing what we have been taught and if needed point out an "error" or untruth that we have been given the authority by the Holy Spirit to be the one who has this task..

....and IMHO, you are right on the money, but I also think that it's important to speak the truth in love, and more often than not, we are speaking the truth in angst.

1 Cor. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge......but have not love, I am nothing.

1 Cor. 13:4,5 Love suffers long, and is kind; love does not envy, does not parade itself, is not puffed up, does not behave rudely, does not seek it's own, is not provoked, thinks no evil

The problem I see is that, many times, we get so infatuated with being right that we lose sight of just why we are here in the first place...not only to edify one another, BUT TO BLESS THE LORD, and one of the ways by which we do that is demonstrating our love for one another.

If I have EVER, EVER offended ANYONE on this board, by not speaking the truth in this way, I am SO SO sorry, and ask for your forgiveness. Please know that, as my Christian brothers and sisters, I respect and value everyone here, and everyone's perspective matters.

We need to remember that, and act accordingly....and also remember that, in the end, the only thing that will matter is expanding the Kingdom of God. Even now, this is what should matter most.

hootinannie
Dec 21st 2007, 06:57 AM
I had company all day today, so I am just getting around to reading everyone's posts.

Once again I find myself speechless, not knowing what to say. The outpouring of love toward me and the support you've shown in your posts, and the gracious forgiveness for my sin and shame and your response to the Holy Spirit's correction both amazes and humbles me greatly.

I'll reply more when I can find some words. Right now I'm just sort of overwhelmed.

Much love in our Lord,
Hoot

Duane Morse
Dec 21st 2007, 10:28 AM
Hoot and I may have gotten off on a wrong foot. Perhaps it is my own fault, and perhaps because I take certain things too personally.


Like I said -I am not trying to 'justify' - just trying to explain.

We are not God.
We sin, either through malice or omission.

We can not help it, because of how we were created.
(which may be a subject of an entirely separate topic - which, if put to the test, would surely put me at odds with most of you)

That does not mean that we should not strive for more.

It simply means that we fail - because of who and what we are.


Jesus is our ultimate salvation - because He can do what we can not do (in and of ourselves).


It is not an excuse for our sins.
There is none such, because we each choose to do what we do.

RoadWarrior
Dec 21st 2007, 03:22 PM
Hoot and I may have gotten off on a wrong foot. Perhaps it is my own fault, and perhaps because I take certain things too personally.


Like I said -I am not trying to 'justify' - just trying to explain.

We are not God.
We sin, either through malice or omission.

We can not help it, because of how we were created.
(which may be a subject of an entirely separate topic - which, if put to the test, would surely put me at odds with most of you)

That does not mean that we should not strive for more.

It simply means that we fail - because of who and what we are.


Jesus is our ultimate salvation - because He can do what we can not do (in and of ourselves).


It is not an excuse for our sins.
There is none such, because we each choose to do what we do.

Thanks Duane for your apology. I'm sure we all felt it, not just Hoot, and so for myself, I thank you.

It is true that there is a very thin line between explaining and justifying ourselves. And part of being human is being sensitive - sometimes overly sensitive and taking things personally that were not intended that way at all. I can speak to that because it was the way I reacted for many years.

Yes, if you think you are going to say something that would put you in conflict with others, it is better to do that in a different thread, since this one is specifically about NOT acting out our conflicts.

I always rejoice to see growth in each one of us as Christians. As Hoot shared her personal testimony here of what God was doing in her, and exhorted us to come along, she helped us all to see more clearly how we can become more like Jesus. She helped us to see one small way in which we can do that.

So I am also very glad to see your own gracious response. Thank you. :hug:

Tanya~
Dec 21st 2007, 03:45 PM
Hi Hoot, :hug:

As I read the OP, this passage came to mind:


Prov 10:19
In the multitude of words sin is not lacking,
But he who restrains his lips is wise.

Ayala
Dec 21st 2007, 03:48 PM
I like this version. :D

Proverbs 10:19
Too much talk leads to sin. Be sensible and keep your mouth shut.

Tanya~
Dec 21st 2007, 03:54 PM
:) Thanks Jer. And I forgot to say that I'm guilty too. And I really do feel it when I get involved in these fruitless, unedifying debates. Yet there is a lot of good that I have seen as well, ministry through the word, teaching and edification of one another. We don't HAVE to argue. We can state our belief and let others decide.


1 Cor 14:29-31
Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
When we speak the word of God in such a way as to teach or encourage another, then it is good and edifying. When we're arguing nobody is learning, and nobody is being encouraged.