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twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 01:44 PM
is there any part in the bible that say being gay is wrong? i believe animals are born gay, maybe SOME humans are too? will god really punish some one for loving some one of the same sex, even if there a good person.

VerticalReality
Dec 20th 2007, 01:51 PM
is there any part in the bible that say being gay is wrong? i believe animals are born gay, maybe SOME humans are too? will god really punish some one for loving some one of the same sex, even if there a good person.

Loving someone of the same sex doesn't mean you need to have sexual relations with them. There are other men that I love and care for because they are my brothers in Christ. I would give my life for them if need be. However, to answer your question . . . yes, there are several passages of Scripture that speak of homosexuality being wrong. This passage being one of them . . .



Romans 1:27
Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 02:11 PM
i know a gay couple. it feels like its not right for them to punished for loving some one more then friends. they havent had other gay couples in the past. one is a cop and the other works in a youth department for troubled kids. both great people.

Big T
Dec 20th 2007, 02:12 PM
Yes, the old and new testament both denounce homosexuality.

As for the animal kingdom.......
Let's say SOME animals are "born gay". Does that make it right for humans? Animals eat raw food, hippo's and monkey's fling their poop, rats eat their young.... Should humans start doing this too? I mean, if animals are....

Secondly... The homosexuality behaviour that has been noted has been for dominance. It is used to keep another member of the group down, an act of humiliation. I've yet to hear of any other reason for homosexuality behaviour among animals.

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 02:16 PM
I dont think you can see any passage in the scriptures pardoning the act of homosexuals, on the contrary as posted above there is a clear message condeming it. I have a cousin that is gay and everyone says it was clear from a early age he would be, some even say you are born that way. Even so if he has the mental capability to desern wright from wrong he is without excuse and chosen that lifestyle and turned away from the clear guidence of the word of God he can even come up with great excuses why he is that way, as can a thief or a cheating husband, but before the Lord you have no excuse. It may be a barrier some have to overcome but the choice is clear follow the word of God and his plan for you or follow your own desire. Nobody is saying is is a easy road !

Mark 7:13

" Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it "

Scruffy Kid
Dec 20th 2007, 02:21 PM
Dear twalk39,
Welcome to Bibleforums! :hug:
It's great to have you here! :pp :pp :pp

As you're exploring the Christian faith, I'd love to know a bit more about you, as that would help in knowing what the most helpful way to answer your questions might be. For instance, are you a grandmother suffering from advanced arthritus, a 14yo boy into skateboarding, an airline pilot who raises horses for a hobby, a disabled veteran, or a computer engineer who paints and makes sculpture in her spare time? :lol:

Fundamentally, God is the source of our being, the one who made heaven and earth, and the source of our life, of beauty, of joy, and of goodness and love. The fundamental need of human beings is to know God, and to love God with our whole hearts and our neighbors as ourselves. These things are not our needs simply because they are what God requires of us, although that also is true, but also because they are the path (the only path) to life. To die apart from God is to die apart from the source of our being, and the source of love and goodness; and therefore to continue on into eternity without God would be to continue into a terrible and endless life in which our fundamental meaning and purpose in life is thwarted and frustrated.

We are alienated from God, and from the wonderful life that God aims to give us, by our sins. Fundamentally sin is rejection of God, and rebellion against him, although particular sins are damaging to us and to others in additional ways as well. All of us human beings are big-time sinful: self-centered, disobedient, and caught up in various unhealthy patterns and addictions. In fact, we are captives of destructive things, captives of sin.

This situation is one we are unable to remedy by ourselves. We are weak, and at our core we have self-centered and rebellious tendencies. Because we have cut ourselves off from God and from His ways, we are confused in our thinking and in our behavior. Also, of course, God is very much greater than human beings are -- God made all the stars and galaxies, all the world and its inhabitants, and time and space -- and it is quite hard for us to walk with Him, and learn His ways, even apart from our sins.

Jesus came to bring us God, and to bring us to God. Jesus is the eternal Son of God, who took on human life in order to help us and rescue us. Jesus died for our sins, and rose on the third day, as the Scriptures had foretold (I Cor. 15) in order that we might live anew, and be transformed into God's children.

Any particular sin -- stealing, lying, porn, laziness, despair, rebelliousness, anger, and keeping grudges, and so on -- cuts us off from God for two reasons. One, because the thing itself is wrong, and two, because it involves us in rejecting God and His good ways. What ultimately leads us into destruction, if that where we go, is not just the particular sins which we engage in, but our rebellion against God. That cuts us off from the life of God, which is, ultimately, the only thing that can satisfy our hearts.

Many sins that people commit are ones that we have some kind of biological or acquired predisposition to. Most guys, for instance, have promiscuous desires. We seem to be born that way. But the path to life God gives us is one in which we engage in sexual activity only within marriage. Most people find this difficult.

For many young people their sexual desires are somewhat fluid, and shaped not just biologically, but by various circumstances in their childhood, now often forgotten. Many people who at some point are sexually attracted to people of the same sex later change; many also find that their desires do not change. Whatever is the case, we need to live obedient to the way God has told us to live.

How we handle sex is a part of a larger process of developing healthy relationships, as well.

For those who follow Jesus life is always going to involve sacrifice and self-abnegation. Jesus said "if anyone will come after me, let him deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow me". The path of following Jesus is a path of learning to overcome self-centredness, and fears and desires that lead us into bad things and away from God, so it is always a difficult path. But it the path to life: the path to strength and joy of heart, living in goodness, truth, and love, even amidst difficulties, now in this present life, and also the way to everlasting life!

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 02:24 PM
i think that we are a animal. humans used to eat raw foods. all those things that you say animals do humans do. humans kill humans everyday! say you are born gay, you have to make yourself straight? i cant except good people being punished for a relationship that really doesnt affect anything, its nature! i do admitt there are alot that arent born with it and i know that.

another question is jesus died on the cross for our sins, did that ok the sins before i am confused by that.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 02:31 PM
i am a 20 year old man. i have lots of friends that are christian but they always tell me i just need church and never answer my questions. i dont feel like they will be answered going thats why i got on here where i get quick answers and good ones mostly. i lean more towards christian but i have way to many thoughts that make me not really. i guess im agnostic but i dont really believe there thoughts either. if that makes sense. problem is i think to many good people get punished for dumb things in my opinion. i dont think one religion is right though, i think there are alot of people not exposed to different types of religion. i think if you grow up in that type of family your going to be that way. most people share the same views as there parents because thats what they have been brought up around.

mjs
Dec 20th 2007, 02:34 PM
Before commenting on your question, it should be stated that Christ died for the homosexual just as He died for the heterosexual. It is this love that should guide our actions. It is this love alone that will allow us the grace to deal with such issues as homosexuality.

There are many passages that speak to homosexuality as being immoral and an abomination before God (See Leviticus 18.22, Leviticus 20.13, Romans 1.26-27 etc…).

Now, the Jewish Law does not apply to us (meaning that we do not put the practicing homosexual to death), not to say that the Law was in error, but that grace now abounds through Jesus Christ. This in no way condones the practice of homosexuality; it is as sinful as ever. But through Christ, there is a different approach; the sinner need not die for his/her sins for Christ has done this. His blood was shed so that the sinner might be free of sin.

Concerning the argument that some are born homosexual, please do not take on the argument of nature, i.e. some animals act with homosexual tendencies, for some animals also eat their young.

I have in my walk with Christ sometimes had difficulty in dealing with the homosexual issue but my conclusion is as follows: I, as a sinful heterosexual without Christ had tendencies to have sexual relations with many women. This was sinful behavior. I had urges to have sexual relationships outside of the bonds of marriage; this is also sinful. I have been faithfully married to the same woman for 18 years now, and I will be very honest, sometimes those thoughts still enter into my mind. It is only through the grace of God that I do not act upon my carnal desires.

Even if I concede that some are born with homosexual tendencies, this is not the intended state of man before God, just as heterosexual fornication is not. We must refrain from the activity, and throw ourselves upon the mercy of God to be delivered from the power of such thoughts. This does not limit the homosexual from experiencing loving relationships, but it should limit his/her activity.

Some may state that this is too limiting for the homosexual, and is somehow unfair, but that is why I stated with the love of Christ. We should not define ourselves by our ability to have carnal relationships, but rather by our relationship with Jesus Christ. Mankind is different for the animal kingdom in that we are also spiritual beings, and it is the spiritual that brings true meaning even to the denial of the carnal.

The homosexual is defined by their behavior, but I say that we all (homo and hetero) should be defined as God’s creation; this is the truth, let us not allow behavior to improper define who we really are.

Christ loves you, and Christ love the homosexual.

Braves27
Dec 20th 2007, 02:38 PM
i think that we are a animal. humans used to eat raw foods. all those things that you say animals do humans do. humans kill humans everyday! say you are born gay, you have to make yourself straight? i cant except good people being punished for a relationship that really doesnt affect anything, its nature! i do admitt there are alot that arent born with it and i know that.

another question is jesus died on the cross for our sins, did that ok the sins before i am confused by that.

Humans may have eaten raw food, but not the nation of Israel, who had God's law.
You're not born gay, but let's say you have those feelings from early on, and can't get rid of them. You have to have men of God pray for that demon to come out of you. Otherwise, there is another option...
Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to recieve it, let him recieve it.

It does affect everything. It affects every part of their lives, and people around them...

Ayala
Dec 20th 2007, 02:43 PM
For every Christian, there are things that our sin-nature enjoys that we must forsake in our walk with God. For some, that may be homosexuality. And for those who truly struggle with it, I don't quite think there's a way to "make yourself straight". I know someone who struggles with homosexuality, but because of her relationship with God, abstains from the desires of her flesh. By contrast, one of my brothers (who grew up to be very knowledgeable in the Bible) walked away from God after submitting himself to a homosexual lifestyle.


And no, sins weren't "ok" before Christ. Those before Christ's time, who put their faith in God and believed in His promise of a messiah, would be sent to a part of Sheol called "Abraham's bosom"...also refered to as "paradise"...Where, after Jesus died for their sins and later ascended to heaven, they would be taken with Him.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 02:44 PM
i have been with the same girl for 3 years and have never cheated. i think that is my morals not jesus. its hard for me to explain how i feel. there reason i dont really consider myself christian is because i dont take everything literal in the bible. everything isnt in there to follow to the T if you know what i mean. i think they are myths with truth behind them. there lessons and teachings i think. i really dont think it matters either way if they really happened or not. but if you get the story behind it and follow that in your life. the babylonians are christian but they have a different genesis. they have the same story behind it but in different ways. whos to say muslims are wrong or jews are.

th1bill
Dec 20th 2007, 02:47 PM
i think that we are a animal. humans used to eat raw foods. all those things that you say animals do humans do. humans kill humans everyday! say you are born gay, you have to make yourself straight? i cant except good people being punished for a relationship that really doesnt affect anything, its nature! i do admitt there are alot that arent born with it and i know that.

another question is jesus died on the cross for our sins, did that ok the sins before i am confused by that.
.. The long and the short of it is that all men, a.k.a. mankind, will be accepted or denied Heaven on the basis of just one matter. Did they accept or did they deny the Lordship of their maker?
.. Before I accepted Christ as my savior, and thereby made Him Lord of my life, i did many sins that are just pure disobedience to God. Since my conversion I strive daily to become more obedient to my Master because I love Him. God has forbidden a number of actions, favored by men, and these actions are therefore known to be sin. I also have friends that are very good men and women, but they will go to Hell, for the very reason I was headed there in my younger days, disobedience.
.. Consider for just a moment your childhood, what was at the core of every punishment your parents or parent figures inflicted upon you? And then consider that God is justice made perfect. You already understand the issue, no you just need to wrap your head around it and in love be the example God will have you to be to your friends.
.. God bless and I pray that you will be their living Bible.

mjs
Dec 20th 2007, 02:48 PM
twalk39,

Concerning your 9:24am response, if you are truly searching, know this; man is not an animal according to God. Man was created in the very image of God, the animals were not. The raw food example was not a good one, for I still eat sushi. Animals do many things that humans do, but one thing animals are wholly incapable of is worshipping our Creator. Your friends are not required to 'make themselves straight', nor are they capable of such. According to mans standards, they probably are good people, but this is not the standard to which you are searching, is it?

You claim, 'its nature', but even if we claim a naturalistic rationale, we would have to conclude homosexuality as an abnormality because if practiced species wide, it would lead to extinction.

Jollyrogers
Dec 20th 2007, 02:49 PM
When you say "good", what is your standard. We are all "good" when we compare ourselves to certain people of this world (Hitler, Stalin, ect, ect, ect) however the bible sets the standard as one who keeps all the laws of god (mark 10:17-30). The bible also says that if we have broken one law, we are just as guilty as one who breaks them all (James 2:9-10). A quick look at just the 10 commandments shows how well we have kept the laws. Here is just 4 of them

Have you ever told a Lie (You shal not lie)
Have you ever stolen something (You shall not steal)
it says "Do not commit adultry", however Jesus said If you look at someone with lust you have comitted adultry with them in your heart (Mathew 5:27-28)
Do not take the Lord your god's name in vain - How many times have I done that.We stand guilty before god of having broke his laws. Noone has kept the law. Some pile up good works thinking that they are going to impress the judge on the day of judgement, however that does not even work in our own courts. If you are being tried for something a little as a speeding ticker, telling the judge how many charities you support will not affect the the fact that you were going above the posted speed. It has nothing to do with the case. I have always wondered why we would not dare approach an earthly judge with all our "good deeds", however we count on them to save us from the "Final Judge". This is what Christ did, He stood up in that final Court room and paid the payment that we could not pay for the laws we have broken. He took upon himself the punishment we deserve and in exchange offered us his richeousness if we would only believe and repent.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 02:49 PM
i was reaing some ones post earlier that said animals were herbivors before adam sinned! then chaos broke out and dinosaurs ate meat and turned on animals. if jesus died for those sins why is sin still around?

i dont really see how homosexuality affects any one in a negative way.

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 02:50 PM
i think that we are a animal. humans used to eat raw foods. all those things that you say animals do humans do. humans kill humans everyday! say you are born gay, you have to make yourself straight? i cant except good people being punished for a relationship that really doesnt affect anything, its nature! i do admitt there are alot that arent born with it and i know that.

another question is jesus died on the cross for our sins, did that ok the sins before i am confused by that.

It seems you think we came from monkys, and are and have taken a few of the triats and carried them on sorry but you are wrong in this matter. God created man i have great evidence to counter the evolution THEORY for this if you want to see it. The sins that were commited before Yeshua died were under mosaic law ( sacrifice in the temple ) When Yeshua rose agian he took the dead that died in service and obidence to the Lord Yaweh. Now Yashua Has died for our sins there is no longer the need for the sacrifice in the temple as the Lord himself came and died and rose again for the sins of not only the Jews but for the whole world (gentiles). But the time of the gentiles is nerly over and God is will finish the covenant with Isreal under the great tribulation. They will cry out for the one they rejected ! just a brief recap hope it helps

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 02:55 PM
i was reaing some ones post earlier that said animals were herbivors before adam sinned! then chaos broke out and dinosaurs ate meat and turned on animals. if jesus died for those sins why is sin still around?

i dont really see how homosexuality affects any one in a negative way.

The science concerning homosexual behavior is a rather large topic, and this thread seems to be jumping back and forth between a few issues. So, to answer in general.

There are no naturally gay animals. It should be noted that where ever there is example of this behavior in the news or science journals, it's after scientists altered pheromones or certain genetic code.

Homosexuality is a sin according to scripture, yes, however, it is no different than any other sin. Unfortunately we put homosexuality on a pedestal.

A homosexual lifestyle is, contrary to the public image, very distrustful, paranoid and during middle age late, the 30's to 40's, is very depressing and has led many people to suicide. I don't believe it's hereditary, genetic or something uncontrollable. I do, however, believe it environmental (in a negative sense), probably early childhood. It may be a 'good' lifestyle, but is it the best lifestyle?

Jollyrogers
Dec 20th 2007, 02:58 PM
i have been with the same girl for 3 years and have never cheated. i think that is my morals not jesus. its hard for me to explain how i feel. there reason i dont really consider myself christian is because i dont take everything literal in the bible. everything isnt in there to follow to the T if you know what i mean. i think they are myths with truth behind them. there lessons and teachings i think. i really dont think it matters either way if they really happened or not. but if you get the story behind it and follow that in your life. the babylonians are christian but they have a different genesis. they have the same story behind it but in different ways. whos to say muslims are wrong or jews are.

When you get beyond the surface, all religions claim to be the only way (even hinduism in it's pantheon of gods). Therefore logically either one is true and the rest is false, or they are all wrong. The one thing they can not be is all true. The separating factor in them is that all of them except one is an attempt by man to build himself a stairway to heaven. Whether it is holding the 5 pillars of Islam, Reincarnating until you finally get it right in Hinduism, or clearing yourself of past regressions as in Scientology, it is still in essence building a stairway to Heaven. What separetes Christianity from them is that we recognise that we can not build it, so we put our faith in Gods son who built it for us by paying for our failure to hold the law (see previous post)

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 03:02 PM
i never said we came from a monkey! i know we can from man, what was man thousands of years ago. man was different. caveman have different features than us now!!

yes there are naturally gay animals. i live out in the country and there are bulls and rams that wont breed with females but will mount males.

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 03:10 PM
i never said we came from a monkey! i know we can from man, what was man thousands of years ago. man was different. caveman have different features than us now!!

yes there are naturally gay animals. i live out in the country and there are bulls and rams that wont breed with females but will mount males.


there are still men that live in caves today, they were not different from us in any way they were still men, I mayby wrong but i dont think you have a strong grasp of history of man. form Adam down. We have dominion over the animals and should not compare animal behaviour to human. It does not matter what you or i THINK is wright or wrong ! Cain thought his sacrifice was as good or better than his brothers but God THOUGHT different as he did not obay Gods instuction, and was rejected.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 03:11 PM
i get so confused by what i am. i believe %100 in god. i god i dont know, but a higher power. since i believe stories in the bible to be myths with truth behind them, i dont know if jesus was work of god but spoke of god. if you understand that. jesus died as a symbol, as hope that he wasnt afraid of death because of heaven. which gave hope and promise to people. he spoke of common sense with morals? i dont base my life off the bible, but with morals i follow most of his teachings!!

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 03:19 PM
i never said we came from a monkey! i know we can from man, what was man thousands of years ago. man was different. caveman have different features than us now!!

yes there are naturally gay animals. i live out in the country and there are bulls and rams that wont breed with females but will mount males.

There are apparently 'gay' animals--motive is everything.
At this moment, however, it's an argument based in what's known as the naturalistic fallacy: behavior is justified through the animal kingdom.
I shall look towards the elephant seal when I want more than one wife ;)
But anyway. . .

Christianity is in line with the law of non-contradiction.
Most importantly on two aspects. Exclusivity is logical as the claims of Christianity can't both be true (John 14:6 'no one comes to the father except through me' [Jesus]) and false (every religion is a different path to the same God). Jesus also can't be the Messiah and just a moral teacher--it has to be one or the other, or neither.

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 03:21 PM
i get so confused by what i am. i believe %100 in god. i god i dont know, but a higher power. since i believe stories in the bible to be myths with truth behind them, i dont know if jesus was work of god but spoke of god. if you understand that. jesus died as a symbol, as hope that he wasnt afraid of death because of heaven. which gave hope and promise to people. he spoke of common sense with morals? i dont base my life off the bible, but with morals i follow most of his teachings!!


God bless you friend but you dont seem to get the major point of the Bible. Jesus wan't just some good guy who came and showed us some morals and how to love one another. He was there in the Begining and it was he who spoke the words of creation (universe - one spoken sentance) He was Yaweh in the flesh who came to put wright what Adam got wrong, You are on the right path my friend and hope you do some studying to really get a grasp of the Bible and appreciate who Jesus really is. When you find out his identity and can totaly comprehend it, it will be awsome i'm 32 and just got it so you are doing better than i did at your age !:pp

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 03:29 PM
you can go look at artifacts and skulls of caveman and tell me they are the exact same as us today. we are at the top of the food chain. lucky! just like animals go down the food chain from, there man to cougar to fox to mouse and so on. we are part of nature. i beat it would be so hard for you to give me a human trait that a animal doesnt have.

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 03:36 PM
you can go look at artifacts and skulls of caveman and tell me they are the exact same as us today. we are at the top of the food chain. lucky! just like animals go down the food chain from, there man to cougar to fox to mouse and so on. we are part of nature. i beat it would be so hard for you to give me a human trait that a animal doesnt have.

yeah i've looked at all the evidence of different skulls and such, i have a friend how has a larger head than myself and when we both die you can compare our skulls and say he must have been prehistoric lol. point is we are not all the same in shape size colour or sexual preference but we are all men. have a look at this and explain it to me if you would ?

http://objectiveministries.org/creation/arabiangiantman.jpg

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 03:36 PM
you can go look at artifacts and skulls of caveman and tell me they are the exact same as us today. we are at the top of the food chain. lucky! just like animals go down the food chain from, there man to cougar to fox to mouse and so on. we are part of nature. i beat it would be so hard for you to give me a human trait that a animal doesnt have.

Conscious thought.
The concept of 'right' and 'wrong'.
The ability to speak coherently.
Morality. . . I think there are a lot of traits we have that animals don't.

In reference to skull size or 'cave man'--those fossils are conjecture based on incomplete fossil evidence (Nebraska Man, Piltdown man being two good examples of false hope)
Just a question, if you believe we evolved from caveman, but don't believe we came from monkeys, then what was our initial cause?

We see in Genesis 1 that we were created by God, in the image of God.
This means that we are the same now as we were thousands of years ago. Except for small adaptations, we're the same.

Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Ge 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 03:38 PM
with the bible translation sucked and is vague. with the flood, in hebrew they have one word that means land, country, and earth. which would make the story very different. if im right in the bible there were dinosaurs ( beast with cedar tree tails) post flood! if im wrong tell me! how did he fit 2 and sometime 7 of every animal on that boat, plus feed?

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 03:43 PM
with the bible translation sucked and is vague. with the flood, in hebrew they have one word that means land, country, and earth. which would make the story very different. if im right in the bible there were dinosaurs ( beast with cedar tree tails) post flood! if im wrong tell me! how did he fit 2 and sometime 7 of every animal on that boat, plus feed?

Have you seen the size of that boat ?

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.exchangedlife.com/wyatt/thumb%2520images/thumbcrisscross.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.exchangedlife.com/wyatt/noah.html&h=64&w=90&sz=3&hl=en&start=90&um=1&tbnid=WxNfji0BzUjl1M:&tbnh=55&tbnw=78&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwyatt%2Bnoahs%2Bark%26start%3D80%26nd sp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26rlz%3 D1G1_____ENUK248%26sa%3DN

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 03:44 PM
with the bible translation sucked and is vague. with the flood, in hebrew they have one word that means land, country, and earth. which would make the story very different. if im right in the bible there were dinosaurs ( beast with cedar tree tails) post flood! if im wrong tell me! how did he fit 2 and sometime 7 of every animal on that boat, plus feed?

Well first, there weren't as many species of animals as there are now--the many different types of dogs, wolves, etc.
Secondly, no one's saying he had to bring large animals (i.e. babies).

The dimensions of the ark do allow for the transporting of every species in existence at the time of moses. There would have been enough room for feeding, he did have one hundred or so years to prepare. And the Flood was global, which accounts for fossil abnormalities in different areas of the earth.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 03:49 PM
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1615, here is a new species of human! its a hobbit! there are many different type of prehistoric man. homo sapiens, homo erectis, and more. we are from all these people. we havent been like this our whole time on earth!

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 03:51 PM
Hi Twalk

you are not talking to people who believe in myths and fairy tails speaking for myself and it's clear others here have looked into this and weighed boths sides up and came to the obvious conclusion that the bible is correct, dont take our word for it d some research yourself to come to your own conclusion, you might find some arguments to really put up.

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 03:53 PM
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1615, here is a new species of human! its a hobbit! there are many different type of prehistoric man. homo sapiens, homo erectis, and more. we are from all these people. we havent been like this our whole time on earth!


thats quite interesting do they have pics of it ? i'd like to look into this. the first sentance gives the game away" computer generated" Even so short people in the past can be accounted for what about Giants ? if we came from monkys or apes then we should be getting bigger and stronger ? why are there remains of giants. ?

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 03:53 PM
do you what animals were then? do you know how big a dinosaur is?

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 03:55 PM
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1615, here is a new species of human! its a hobbit! there are many different type of prehistoric man. homo sapiens, homo erectis, and more. we are from all these people. we havent been like this our whole time on earth!


i never said we came from a monkey!

The precursor to that evolutionary line is the monkey, but you yourself said we never came from a monkey. So how does it work if you deny the beginning but believe in the end?

There are different types of people, like ourselves, throughout history.
There has never been, however, an evolutionary inferior and aside from our resurrected bodies, there hasn't been an evolutionary superior.


do you what animals were then? do you know how big a dinosaur is?

No one knows how big the dinosaurs were, or how small their babies were ;)
In reference to evidence like that, they are always making new discoveries. . .Which are eventually discredited as what they claim to be.
As with that link, the famous tiktaalik was also an evolutionary precursor that wasn't.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:00 PM
i have done some research, read the enuma elish! it is around the same time of the bible maybe older and tales the same tale of genesis. why wasnt that chose for the bible? the babylonian are christian based and believe in this theory! when christianity first started there was also a branch of it that had a female goddess, ishtar. why isnt that in the bible? cain wife, where she come from? why are some of the gnostic gospels not in the bible? if you need questions like that they can keep coming?


http://news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/4865.html heres a page to a older article on the hobbit

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:04 PM
are people that arent shown christianity going to hell, indians, tribes in amazon?

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 04:06 PM
i have done some research, read the enuma elish! it is around the same time of the bible maybe older and tales the same tale of genesis. why wasnt that chose for the bible? the babylonian are christian based and believe in this theory! when christianity first started there was also a branch of it that had a female goddess, ishtar. why isnt that in the bible? cain wife, where she come from? why are some of the gnostic gospels not in the bible? if you need questions like that they can keep coming?


http://news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/4865.html heres a page to a older article on the hobbit

The Enuma Elish is different theologically than the creation story in Genesis in many ways.

The order of creation in the Enuma Elish is stars, sun and moon. In the Genesis creation account is sun, moon and stars. In the Genesis, the stars are exactly that, stars. In the Enuma Elish the stars are different realities. The Enuma Elish teaches a plurality of gods (Marduk, Apsu, Tiamet, Kingu) in the beginning, of which, the corpse of Tiamet is used to create the heavens and the earth--in other words, pre-existent material. In the Genesis account, we have one God creating the universe ex-nihilo (out of nothing). In the Enuma Elish there are stories of celestial beasts which trouble the gods (like the sea monster), whereas in the Genesis account there is nothing like a celestial beast which obstructs God's creating.

So, where there is appears to be a topical similarity, there are deeper theological differences which make the accounts incompatible. The biggest difference I've saved for last--The role of humankind as co-creators with God. As with the Atrahsis Epic or the Enuma Elish, men were an afterthought for menial tasks.


are people that arent shown christianity going to hell, indians, tribes in amazon?

I hold to the belief that it is possible to determine there is a God if one has never heard of Christianity (as in tribes deep in the amazon, for instance).
However, with that, there is also a severe tendency to create outlandish (funny, that I should be saying that) stories, such as the Atrahasis epic and Enuma Elish.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:06 PM
why when jesus got crucified they didnt leave him to the stake like every one else and let the bird get him?

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:08 PM
what do you guys think about the da vinci code stuff?

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 04:10 PM
i have done some research, read the enuma elish! it is around the same time of the bible maybe older and tales the same tale of genesis. why wasnt that chose for the bible? the babylonian are christian based and believe in this theory! when christianity first started there was also a branch of it that had a female goddess, ishtar. why isnt that in the bible? cain wife, where she come from? why are some of the gnostic gospels not in the bible? if you need questions like that they can keep coming?


http://news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/4865.html heres a page to a older article on the hobbit


Thank you twalk i'll look at it,
i'm glad you've done some research but have you looked at both side with a open mind, i am not saying your wrong and i'm am wright both of us lack the final evidence when it all boils down to the begining it's either God or Chance i cannot show you God and you cannot prove chance. You are looking at christianity as the beggining of " religon" it started in the Garden then Noah then Abraham Down thorugh the line To Jesus. Of course there were other religons in the days before christianity that is why Egypt and soddom had judgments on them.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:11 PM
the sea monster is like the serpant! there wasnt going to be any chaos on earth until him changing the plan i guess you'd say

Jollyrogers
Dec 20th 2007, 04:11 PM
i get so confused by what i am. i believe %100 in god. i god i dont know, but a higher power. since i believe stories in the bible to be myths with truth behind them, i dont know if jesus was work of god but spoke of god. if you understand that. jesus died as a symbol, as hope that he wasnt afraid of death because of heaven. which gave hope and promise to people. he spoke of common sense with morals? i dont base my life off the bible, but with morals i follow most of his teachings!!


Consider this, Jesus himself claimed to be God



I and the father are one - John 10:30-33
Jesus claims to be the one greater than the temple Matt 12:6

Jesus tells Peter that he answered correctly and that upon the declairation of him being the son of god - Matt 16:17-20

Matt 24:4 - Many will come in "MY" name and claim to be the christ. He is here teling his diciples not only that many will claim to be the messiah, but reafirming that "HE" is the true messiah!!! Also Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8

Matt 26:23 - The high preist puts Jesus under oath and he acknowledges that he is the son of god

Luke 12: 49-50 - I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled. (50) But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished. Christ claimed to be the one who would bring judgement on the earth, This is what God will do according to the Old Testement

The transfiguration - Matt 17: 1-13 God the father testified of who Christ is. The father himself says "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased"

John 14:6 - "I am the way, The Truth, and The Light, noone comes to the father BUT THRU ME!!"
As C.S. Lewis said in "Mere Christianity"
'I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of thing Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.'

As Lewis said, he claimed to be, so the question is, is he or isn't he?? You can not accept part of what he said and reject the rest

Jollyrogers
Dec 20th 2007, 04:14 PM
why when jesus got crucified they didnt leave him to the stake like every one else and let the bird get him?

Cause the chief Pharasee's went to Pilate and requested that the bodies be taken down due to the jewish holiday that was about to begin

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:16 PM
i understand what you are saying. thank you for telling me i did my research. i try and keep and open mind until i have to defend my thoughts. i keep having to justify what i think when i am trying to do is learn.

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 04:19 PM
why when jesus got crucified they didnt leave him to the stake like every one else and let the bird get him?

Joseph (of Arimathea) asked for Jesus' body from Pilot:

Mk 15:43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body.
Mk 15:44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died.
Mk 15:45 When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.
Mk 15:46 So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.


what do you guys think about the da vinci code stuff?

Much of the theory rests on the Gospel of Philip. The crux of their argument rests on this incomplete verse:

"Jesus kissed her often on the [blank]. . . " The verse is incomplete, so people jump to conclusions and assume lips, face etc. Whereas in ancient culture the kissing of the cheeks, hand, whatever else, was perfectly normal and not indicative of a romantic relationship. There are many different theological and moral reasons why Jesus' couldn't have been married and have children. However, the biggest is because there's absolutely no reason to believe he was.


the sea monster is like the serpant! there wasnt going to be any chaos on earth until him changing the plan i guess you'd say

The serpent didn't create the chaos, the sin of Adam and Eve did.
The serpent is easily punished by God, hardly a celestial adversary like the sort in the Enuma Elish and Atrahasis Epic.
The serpent, Satan, is not God's equal. Whereas God was not created, Satan was [created by God]--an angel who rebelled.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:20 PM
can some explain to me why it is so important that everything is literal in the bible and not a story to follow by. you are going to follow it no matter what. it doesnt matter if the earth really flooded, you still have faith! there are many different things i can say to try and debunk the bible but i dont really think that. if i believe in god, and believe in doing right by the bible, why must i believe in the stories!

dljc
Dec 20th 2007, 04:20 PM
with the bible translation sucked and is vague. with the flood, in hebrew they have one word that means land, country, and earth. which would make the story very different. if im right in the bible there were dinosaurs ( beast with cedar tree tails) post flood! if im wrong tell me! how did he fit 2 and sometime 7 of every animal on that boat, plus feed?Hi Twalk and welcome to the board. :pp

In the bold question from your post consider this. Instead of adult animals what if those animal were babies or even what might be considered pre-teen for lack of a better way of saying that.

As baby's, the animals wouldn't eat as much and therefore less feed and space would be needed. Even at pre-teen age, still less feed would be needed. This would also allow for every species to be loaded onto the Ark. Even if more feed was needed, God would have supplied it just as He fed the Israelites manna for 40 years.

As young adult animals their size would be smaller even than full grown adults. But they would be very near the reproductive age needed to repopulate the earth.

Next, look at Noah's life span. Noah lived 350 years after the flood! (Genesis 9:28) If Noah lived that long, and the lizards lived that long wouldn't they be huge? A lizard continues to grow larger. It can regrow a tail can't it? (in many cases but not all).

Just some food for thought. :)

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 04:22 PM
i understand what you are saying. thank you for telling me i did my research. i try and keep and open mind until i have to defend my thoughts. i keep having to justify what i think when i am trying to do is learn.

lol i didn't mean to be condesending, i'm just happy that your asking questions as i had millions like yours also, God has given you free will to choose him or reject him, i hope you dont think i or anybody else is attacking you for what you think. I am bombarded with evolution and things i find offensive to my God everyday when i turn on the T.V so it gets to you when people come to a conclusion without investgation and and are lead away by popular opinion and the media. I have to justify my belifs to the world.

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 04:25 PM
can some explain to me why it is so important that everything is literal in the bible and not a story to follow by. you are going to follow it no matter what. it doesnt matter if the earth really flooded, you still have faith! there are many different things i can say to try and debunk the bible but i dont really think that. if i believe in god, and believe in doing right by the bible, why must i believe in the stories!

The question is simple, as the one I asked you about our evolutionary process. How do you take one part of an account, ignore it, then believe the subsequent accounts which were based on the previous accounts (which are then denied by the reader)?

Do I think it would affect someone's salvation if they didn't believe in a literal creation story, or a literal flood story? I don't feel quite easy saying it, but right now. . . Probably not. In denying the historicity of the stories though, there are theological issues later on.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:28 PM
Mary Magdalene… more than… the disciples…. Kiss her…on her…the rest of the disciples… they said to him…. Why do you love her more than all of us? that is what i have found that it said. which to me sounds a little more than just a cheek kiss.


the serpant lured them into doing it

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:30 PM
i know how you feel! i try really hard to research about stuff. theres so much i just have to ask questions! i do research alot and have thought about this for the past year, that why i come up with all these thoughts.

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 04:34 PM
Mary Magdalene… more than… the disciples…. Kiss her…on her…the rest of the disciples… they said to him…. Why do you love her more than all of us? that is what i have found that it said. which to me sounds a little more than just a cheek kiss.


the serpant lured them into doing it


“. . . the companion of the [Savior is] Mary Magdalene. [But Christ loved] her more than [all] the disciples and used to kiss her [often] on her [mouth]. The rest of the disciples were offended by it . . .. They said to him, ‘Why do you love her more than all of us?’ The Savior answered and said to them, ‘Why do I not love you as [I love her?]”

Everything in bracket's is conjecture by a translator, or consensus by a group of translators. The Gnostic gospels were denied cannon for a number of reasons. The first is that they were written two and three hundred years after the original gospels. They are psuedographical (they take the names of the disciples but weren't written by the disciples). As well, they teach what is considered to be heresy. One of the biggest heresy's is the verse above, which is the entire 'DaVinci code' line of thought.

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 04:36 PM
i know how you feel! i try really hard to research about stuff. theres so much i just have to ask questions! i do research alot and have thought about this for the past year, that why i come up with all these thoughts.

your obviously smarter than the average bear as yogi would say, ask questions then until your comfortable and confident in your belief, you will have to justify it and give a reason for your faith, if someones asks you why you believe in the bible and laughs.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:40 PM
there is alot of history behind the da vinci code. not just that line! i dont believe that the bible is translated right. they dont have the hebrew writing any more to even check and see what it could say. thats kinda what was making me not take things to literal because it could really be different then what we are reading now. enough to change some meanings around.

Jollyrogers
Dec 20th 2007, 04:45 PM
What language are the dead sea scrols in?? (Aramaic and Hebrew)

We also have the spetuagent, which was translated 200 to 300 years before Christ.

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 04:51 PM
there is alot of history behind the da vinci code. not just that line! i dont believe that the bible is translated right. they dont have the hebrew writing any more to even check and see what it could say. thats kinda what was making me not take things to literal because it could really be different then what we are reading now. enough to change some meanings around.

That's why I said it was the crux of the position.
I'm sure you're also familiar with the varied Gnostic heresies concerning the person of Jesus--not as son of God, not being killed on the cross, only 'appearing' as a person etc. When you take the 'evidence' (which obviously isn't much) of the Gnostic gospels as compared with the evidence of the Old and New Testaments then you have a severe lacking on the former.

There are thousands of Biblical manuscripts, least (and oldest) of which are the Dead sea Scrolls which, for over two thousand years, have been left unchanged. Given the benefit if the doubt, there's no reason to assume anything was changed before that either. Jewish scribes and religious leaders held their scripture in the highest regard. How many 14 year olds do you know who have the entire Old Testament memorized?

I recommend you look into the Dead Sea scrolls, the Septuagint (LXX), the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Masoretic text etc. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Christian scripture has gone unaltered for thousands of years. The same cannot be said of Gnostic writing. Word meanings may have changed over time, but that's the point of redaction--to 'update' the language so that meaning isn't lost.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:53 PM
what do you think about the da vinci code! i understand and dont understand why its such a huge deal. why couldnt jesus love. yes he was here from god, he was here to spread word. if i didnt or didnt happen i dont understand the hype from both sides.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 04:57 PM
i totally understand that. i read that the gnostics were i guess you say unreliable. i think there is truth behind everything.maybe they didnt want it in the bible because thats not the reason jesus was here. its not something that really needed to be said. its a big deal but not what the bible wants to portray. thats my thought kinda.

dljc
Dec 20th 2007, 04:59 PM
twalk,


Do you believe we have a sinful nature?

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 05:00 PM
what do you think about the da vinci code! i understand and dont understand why its such a huge deal. why couldnt jesus love. yes he was here from god, he was here to spread word. if i didnt or didnt happen i dont understand the hype from both sides.

I think it's hogwash! :)
It's a big deal because it denies large portions of Christian faith. The most important of which is Jesus' bodily resurrection. Without a bodily resurrection, Jesus isn't God, our sins therefore aren't covered etc.

If Jesus were to have married Mary and have a child, he would have then left both Mary (in a very bad position in that culture) and the child fatherless--how 'good' is that? How moral? Being God, procreation would have resulted in a human/divine(ish) child. Jesus would have nevertheless been a bad father--he was always on the go, always avoiding assassination etc. I guess the other thing about it is that it's totally baseless to even consider that he had married Mary when there's nothing to suggest that he did other than a couple books written under fake names hundreds of years after the event.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 05:03 PM
what do you mean by that. i think there is a evil spirit. it depends on how you are going to define that. do i think satan has something to do with it. sometimes. natural i think we are like animals and they can be mean. so yea i guess.

dljc
Dec 20th 2007, 05:07 PM
what do you mean by that. i think there is a evil spirit. it depends on how you are going to define that. do i think satan has something to do with it. sometimes. natural i think we are like animals and they can be mean. so yea i guess.twalk,

I realize there are many people in this thread that you are talking to right now. Can you click on the "Quote" button in the lower right corner so we know who you are responding to. :)

I'm not sure if you are responding to my question or someone else's post. :hug:

Jollyrogers
Dec 20th 2007, 05:07 PM
In order to be included in the bible the books of the New testement had to be from a direct source, either an apostle or one of their diciples that was an eyewitness.


Book of John - Written by the john, diciple of Christ
Book of Matthew - written by Matthew, diciple of Christ
Book of Mark - Written by John Mark, who went with Peter and was in essence Peters secretary. John Mark is spoken of in Acts and the letters on several ocasions
Book of Luke - Written by Luke, the prysition that accompanied Paul on his journey. He also wrote the book of Acts. It is believed by some that both these books were trial documents sent ahead to Theopilis in order to prepare Pauls case before Ceaser


The gnostic gospels were written 200 to 300 years later. They were not eyewitness acounts and were not written by the people in whom they are named for. They also contradict the eyewitness acounts in several places. That is why they were not accepted into the cannon.

twalk39
Dec 20th 2007, 05:10 PM
they think mary took off after jesus died. maybe jesus didnt rebirth physically but in spirit. maybe some christians took him to a proper tomb to lay to rest. not really sure. i dont know where it would just randomly come up though. i think its kind of weird that it just pops up. i dont think physically jesus is god. i think human. otherwise that would kind of make satan god, and all of us from adam and eve!

Rullion Green
Dec 20th 2007, 05:26 PM
they think mary took off after jesus died. maybe jesus didnt rebirth physically but in spirit. maybe some christians took him to a proper tomb to lay to rest. not really sure. i dont know where it would just randomly come up though. i think its kind of weird that it just pops up. i dont think physically jesus is god. i think human. otherwise that would kind of make satan god, and all of us from adam and eve!


theres a fork in the road you either take the Bible hard as the story may be to believe ( but there is evedence for Flood ect) or you go your own way, and mish mash this and that, if you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh then there is no point in taking anything from the bible you end up watering it down and down until your left with a nothing. Bottom line is he is God in the Flesh and came died and rose again to forgive our sins. He is the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but through him. Every one has the choice to take it or leave it. harsh as it may sound it's the truth. Some people dont want the truth they are looking for answers that conform to their life and beliefs.

Athanasius
Dec 20th 2007, 05:31 PM
they think mary took off after jesus died. maybe jesus didnt rebirth physically but in spirit. maybe some christians took him to a proper tomb to lay to rest. not really sure. i dont know where it would just randomly come up though. i think its kind of weird that it just pops up. i dont think physically jesus is god. i think human. otherwise that would kind of make satan god, and all of us from adam and eve!

If Jesus didn't resurrect in body, but only in spirit, then he has no power over death. Ergo, He isn't God, our sins aren't covered, etc. It's the same causality of events if Jesus was never crucified (but perhaps, Judas instead) or if Jesus was crucified but 'got better'.

What gives you the idea that Mary simply, 'took off'?
Hundreds of believers did, after all, see Jesus' resurrected after his death. If he had been laid to rest in a proper tomb, how is this explained?

I also don't understand the logic of your last sentence? Could you clarify that?

MMC
Dec 21st 2007, 02:23 AM
Well...actually....I'm a former primatologist, and bonobos (Pan paniscus) engage in male-male sexual acts and female-female sexual acts for reasons other than dominance. It is a social "glue" kinda thing within the group, for comfort, pleasure, and recreation.

...but they also fling their poop....so... :D

twalk39
Dec 21st 2007, 07:04 AM
twalk,

I realize there are many people in this thread that you are talking to right now. Can you click on the "Quote" button in the lower right corner so we know who you are responding to. :)

I'm not sure if you are responding to my question or someone else's post. :hug:

i was responding to you sorry. i am really not sure how far i can go on what i am saying because i have gotten 2 post taking off that i thought werent bad at all. only what i thought with my opinions.

twalk39
Dec 21st 2007, 07:11 AM
theres a fork in the road you either take the Bible hard as the story may be to believe ( but there is evedence for Flood ect) or you go your own way, and mish mash this and that, if you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh then there is no point in taking anything from the bible you end up watering it down and down until your left with a nothing. Bottom line is he is God in the Flesh and came died and rose again to forgive our sins. He is the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but through him. Every one has the choice to take it or leave it. harsh as it may sound it's the truth. Some people dont want the truth they are looking for answers that conform to their life and beliefs.


that is your belief and the belief that christianity. im not trying to be a jerk i am just saying that every religion is different. if you were muslim you would be thinking different right now. if you were an indian hundreds of years ago you would think different. why are these people held accountable for something they dont have control over. most religions believe in one god. maybe there is only one god and different stories about the same one. i dont think it is far to judge other people by what they believe and say are wrong off the same principls that your using. im not being a jerk i am just saying how i feel. i cant really understand why i am a bad guy for atleast trying to find some answer that fit my life the way you found yours. just because mine arent the same doesnt i am any less.

twalk39
Dec 21st 2007, 07:22 AM
If Jesus didn't resurrect in body, but only in spirit, then he has no power over death. Ergo, He isn't God, our sins aren't covered, etc. It's the same causality of events if Jesus was never crucified (but perhaps, Judas instead) or if Jesus was crucified but 'got better'.

What gives you the idea that Mary simply, 'took off'?
Hundreds of believers did, after all, see Jesus' resurrected after his death. If he had been laid to rest in a proper tomb, how is this explained?

I also don't understand the logic of your last sentence? Could you clarify that?
why does this mean jesus doesnt have power? because he isnt physical? why is the degrading to jesus? when people make claims that jesus had a kid with no proof, you ask for proof! what proof is based that jesus doesnt have the same powers if he rose in spirit then what he would physically?

twalk39
Dec 21st 2007, 07:24 AM
Well...actually....I'm a former primatologist, and bonobos (Pan paniscus) engage in male-male sexual acts and female-female sexual acts for reasons other than dominance. It is a social "glue" kinda thing within the group, for comfort, pleasure, and recreation.

...but they also fling their poop....so... :D
i have heard of little kids finger painting with poop, lol. thanks for the facts on that.

Athanasius
Dec 21st 2007, 08:45 PM
why does this mean jesus doesnt have power? because he isnt physical? why is the degrading to jesus? when people make claims that jesus had a kid with no proof, you ask for proof! what proof is based that jesus doesnt have the same powers if he rose in spirit then what he would physically?

We read in Romans 6:23 what the wages of sin are,

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Christ came to forgive us of our sins (if we're willing to accept his gift). Had He not been able to physically rise, he would have no power over death, ergo, no power over sin.

Everyone eventually rises spiritually, but to rise physically?
That takes a power greater than death and sin!

Revinius
Dec 22nd 2007, 05:44 PM
We read in Romans 6:23 what the wages of sin are,

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Christ came to forgive us of our sins (if we're willing to accept his gift). Had He not been able to physically rise, he would have no power over death, ergo, no power over sin.

Everyone eventually rises spiritually, but to rise physically?
That takes a power greater than death and sin!


In addition, for the Romans to have killed God and for God not to rise again would provide evidence that God indeed hasnt got the power that we believe he does. Noone has ever raised anyone from the dead bar Jesus, so the final miracle and symbol of rebirth for all is the final proof of Jesus' divinity.

Ayala
Dec 28th 2007, 02:56 AM
Yes, indeed He did. I don't think anyone here claimed otherwise though.

Revinius
Dec 28th 2007, 01:29 PM
Regardless of your urges mate, its your repentance that enables you to openly come into a relationship with God. Jesus died for everyone, everyone who believes in him. If you believe in him you will respect what he has to say right? If the Lord considers homosexuality to be a corruption of relationships in a fallen world, and that we are not to partake in it, then we should be doing our best to walk in the light like he did.

Does this make sense? Its not just homosexuality that is the issue here, its people who dont love God enough to live FOR him. If you love God and you love all he stands for then you should be following in his example and bearing fruit in how you live.

itsokimadocter
Dec 29th 2007, 09:08 AM
i notice that with many non-christians that dont beleive in CERTAIN parts of the bible, it is because it is to justify a certain sin(s) and they cant handle the conviction so they excuse their sin by saying they dont beleive that the bible is true.

can you think of anything in your life you might be trying to justify twalk?

the bible says that God has placed His law in your heart...you know the difference between right and wrong. By ignoring what is right and true, people and yourself forfit God's favor and blessing and in most cases, they forfit His free gift of eternal salvation.

i pray you truly analyze your bible stumbling blocks...

in Christ's love,
Todd

PS: one question....why do you think the Jews crucified Jesus?