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Rullion Green
Dec 23rd 2007, 02:23 PM
There is a contradiction i am having a problem with " the Law " should i be keeping the 10 commandments ? some say Jesus done away with the law and we no longer have to be strict in obedience to it, some say it's just a guide on how to be a good person and please the Lord. But the Lord said he did not come to abolish the he came to fulfill the law, so should we therefore keep the law as the Jews the believe in Jesus do ? If so how can i keep the sabbath holy if all the churchs congregate on sunday since the catholic church brought it in. The only church that i am aware of that keeps the sabbath is the seventh day adventist church but i do not want to go there as i do not believe some of what they teach, i find it hard to even find a church that is true to the word am talking about preachers like paul washer and alike ! i like there message but no one seems to be doing it. Any way I try to keep the ten commandments but the sabbath is a puzzler to me and help is needed !!!! thanks

doug3
Dec 23rd 2007, 09:22 PM
There is a contradiction i am having a problem with " the Law " should i be keeping the 10 commandments ? some say Jesus done away with the law and we no longer have to be strict in obedience to it, some say it's just a guide on how to be a good person and please the Lord. But the Lord said he did not come to abolish the he came to fulfill the law, so should we therefore keep the law as the Jews the believe in Jesus do ? If so how can i keep the sabbath holy if all the churchs congregate on sunday since the catholic church brought it in. The only church that i am aware of that keeps the sabbath is the seventh day adventist church but i do not want to go there as i do not believe some of what they teach, i find it hard to even find a church that is true to the word am talking about preachers like paul washer and alike ! i like there message but no one seems to be doing it. Any way I try to keep the ten commandments but the sabbath is a puzzler to me and help is needed !!!! thanks

Hi Nobunaga

Very good question. Couldn't have put it better.

I started keeping the Sabbath on Saturday last summer when I reread Genesis 2:1-3 and saw the teaching of Jesus Christ and the apostles (especially Paul) in a new light:


Genesis 2:1-3
1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
(KJV)


to bless = To make or pronounce holy; to consecrate (OPTED Websters dictionary 1913)
sanctified = to be set apart (Online Bible Hebrew Lexicon)


I realised that the seventh-day Sabbath was brought into being well before God made any covenants (agreement, pledge) with Noah, with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and then with the children of Israel (Exodus 20, 10 commandments).


Thus I began to change in my understanding of the following scriptures:


Mt 5:17-19
“17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (KJV)


“17 ¶ "Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion. 18 Solemnly I tell you that until Heaven and earth pass away, not one iota or smallest detail will pass away from the Law until all has taken place. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to break them, will be called the least in the Kingdom of the Heavens; but whoever practises them and teaches them, he will be acknowledged as great in the Kingdom of the Heavens.” (Mt 5:17-19 WEY)


Abrogate: To put an end to; to do away with. (OPTED Websters dictionary 1913)




Eph 2:8-9
“8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (KJV)


Eph 2:8-9
“8 For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God’s gift, and is not on the ground of merit— 9 so that it may be impossible for any one to boast.” (WEY)


I was able to see that Paul was not contradicting this statement of Jesus Christ (Mt 5:17.19) in his epistles when he tells of how we are saved by grace through faith, not by our works (by doing things to earn our slavation).


[I](Christians are saved by our belief in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins which enables us to have fellowship with the Father and the Son (1 John 1:3). By continuing in His word we can maintain that relationship and come to the knowledge of the truth (John 8:31-31).)


I see clearly from Genesis 2:3 that the seventh day Sabbath has been important to God from the beginning. Therefore seventh-day Sabbath-keeping is an act of obedience motivated by our love for Him.


1Jo 4:19
“We love him, because he first loved us.” (KJV)

markedward
Dec 23rd 2007, 09:35 PM
I don't believe Jesus did away with the Law (He said He came "not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it"). As such, I believe we are still under the Law, but whereas we fail to follow the Law (sin) Christ covers us with His atonement (since He perfectly followed the Law, He takes our place as having perfectly followed it).

But at the same time, while Jesus did not abolish the Law, He... "overrides" certain Laws. For example, we don't have to follow the Law about sacrifices, since Jesus is our sacrifice. We don't have to follow any Laws about the ark of the covenant (God's "throne" on earth) since Jesus' throne is at the right hand of God in heaven. We don't have to follow the Laws about the priests, since Jesus is our priest.

Matthew 12 also shows us that Jesus is the "Lord of the Sabbath." He is our sabbath. Also see Colossians 2:16-17.

Jesusinmyheart
Dec 23rd 2007, 11:28 PM
My advise to you is to spend many hours in study and not look to men to give you an answer that may or may not please you. I was in the same spot 3 years ago when i wondered the same and i now observe the Sabbath, and follow the Law to the best of my ability. It is to be a sign between God and His chosen people. Some would say this applies to Israel only, but where is your citizenship if you're grafted into the same tree ?

EDIT: I have posted in and created many threads about this very topic, if you desire some material for study, those threads could help you, or possibly confuse you. That's why i suggest you take this up with God, as he will not give you a snake, but He will give you truth.
That's what i did, and God taught me so much during those 3 years.


Shalom,
Tanja

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2007, 11:30 PM
There is a contradiction i am having a problem with " the Law " should i be keeping the 10 commandments ? some say Jesus done away with the law and we no longer have to be strict in obedience to it, some say it's just a guide on how to be a good person and please the Lord. But the Lord said he did not come to abolish the he came to fulfill the law, so should we therefore keep the law as the Jews the believe in Jesus do ? If so how can i keep the sabbath holy if all the churchs congregate on sunday since the catholic church brought it in. The only church that i am aware of that keeps the sabbath is the seventh day adventist church but i do not want to go there as i do not believe some of what they teach, i find it hard to even find a church that is true to the word am talking about preachers like paul washer and alike ! i like there message but no one seems to be doing it. Any way I try to keep the ten commandments but the sabbath is a puzzler to me and help is needed !!!! thanks

Read the book of Galatians and Romans 1-8 and pay special attention to the first part of Romans 7 and 8. Also, you might find Colossians to be interesting reading, esp. chapter 2 and 3.

That should help some.

Studyin'2Show
Dec 23rd 2007, 11:41 PM
I actually keep Sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday evening, and have a worship service on Sunday. There is actually nothing in scripture that says it is required to fellowship with other believers on the Sabbath. And in my book, any day is a good day to worship! :pp

God Bless!

Rullion Green
Dec 24th 2007, 12:59 AM
I actually keep Sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday evening, and have a worship service on Sunday. There is actually nothing in scripture that says it is required to fellowship with other believers on the Sabbath. And in my book, any day is a good day to worship! :pp

God Bless!

Thank you everyone for your help in this matter, it seems there is a definete divide here or no coming together or agreement on the matter to put it another way. I'm in the same position as before as i have tried to research scripture and can find arguments for both sides !:confused

What do you do to keep Sabbath on friday evening to saturday ? i like your way of thinking ! keeping the Sabbath and still going to church but what do you do ?

Studyin'2Show
Dec 24th 2007, 01:46 AM
Well look at the commandment.

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Remember it; that's the first thing. Gives you an idea that He knew that people would forget it at some point. Keep it holy; that's the second thing. So, what is holy? I like dictionary.com's number two definition.
ho·ly http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fholy) /ˈhoʊhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hoh-lee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, -li·er, -li·est, noun, plural -lies. –adjective 1.specially recognized as or declared sacred by religious use or authority; consecrated: holy ground. 2.dedicated or devoted to the service of God, the church, or religion: a holy man.Dedicated or devoted to the service of God. I usually spend the day just enjoying His presence, enjoying His creation. If I have an opportunity to feed the hungry, visit the sick, or just generally help those in need, I do. That is the service of God, isn't it? ;) Just as Yeshua healed on the Sabbath. My 'keeping' of the Sabbath, likely looks very different than what legalistic Sabbath keeping looks like, just as His looked different than what they expected. Oh yeah, I don't work. Now this confuses many because they don't know how to define work. I think the key is focusing on God, not ourselves. And understanding that the Sabbath was made FOR us, not to be a burden AGAINST us. I hope this helps as you seek God's will for you in this.

God Bless!

Rullion Green
Dec 24th 2007, 02:58 AM
Well look at the commandment.


Remember it; that's the first thing. Gives you an idea that He knew that people would forget it at some point. Keep it holy; that's the second thing. So, what is holy? I like dictionary.com's number two definition. Dedicated or devoted to the service of God. I usually spend the day just enjoying His presence, enjoying His creation. If I have an opportunity to feed the hungry, visit the sick, or just generally help those in need, I do. That is the service of God, isn't it? ;) Just as Yeshua healed on the Sabbath. My 'keeping' of the Sabbath, likely looks very different than what legalistic Sabbath keeping looks like, just as His looked different than what they expected. Oh yeah, I don't work. Now this confuses many because they don't know how to define work. I think the key is focusing on God, not ourselves. And understanding that the Sabbath was made FOR us, not to be a burden AGAINST us. I hope this helps as you seek God's will for you in this.

God Bless!

Thank you ! i try to read the bible every day and hardly ever watch tv anymore and am constantly looking for answers i dont have regarding God. Can i ask if you are Jewish ? just that i have been listening to Micheal Brown and other Jewish people that believe in Jesus and they make a lot of sense to me as a non Jewish person but explain the
Old and New Testiment very well for me.:pp and also with regard to the Law ! Sabbath included

Studyin'2Show
Dec 24th 2007, 03:41 AM
Thank you ! i try to read the bible every day and hardly ever watch tv anymore and am constantly looking for answers i dont have regarding God. Can i ask if you are Jewish ? just that i have been listening to Micheal Brown and other Jewish people that believe in Jesus and they make a lot of sense to me as a non Jewish person but explain the
Old and New Testiment very well for me.:pp and also with regard to the Law ! Sabbath includedNope; not Jewish. And I don't follow rabbinic law or tradition. I just read God's word and apply it to my life. ;)

ServantofTruth
Dec 26th 2007, 10:08 PM
The best answer i liked on this topic was read the bible. No book has had a greater effect on me, it alone brought me to faith. My problems start with denominations and people in those denominations.:hug: Defend the bible only.

shnfx
Dec 30th 2007, 07:54 AM
There is a contradiction i am having a problem with " the Law " should i be keeping the 10 commandments ? some say Jesus done away with the law and we no longer have to be strict in obedience to it, some say it's just a guide on how to be a good person and please the Lord. But the Lord said he did not come to abolish the he came to fulfill the law, so should we therefore keep the law as the Jews the believe in Jesus do ?

Excellent question and one that I struggled with for a long time myself. I will do my best to try to help you in what I have learned in my previous struggle with this same topic. It just recently was made known to me and I finally feel at peace, thanks to God. I hope I can help you in your journey to seek understanding. You will probably get a lot of different responses so don't just pick which one you want to believe, but believe in God and his word only. Continue to pray and read God's word. I only want to help you from what I learned through my journey.

We are no longer under the law of Moses.
We are no longer in bondage to the law of Moses.
Is the law necessary? - Yes, to lead us to Christ.
"The Law is the schoolmaster to leads us to Christ". - (Galatians 3:24) The Law shows us our sin, which is why we need Christ to save us. Christ fulfilled God's requirement of the law and also paid the penalty we deserve for breaking God's law. Christ is where we find righteousness, not by obedience to the law. If we are justified by the law, Christ died for nothing.
"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" - (Galatians 2:21)
If we try to obey the 10 commandments (even out of Love for God) to get to heaven then we are not accepting the free gift from God in Jesus Christ, but are trying to earn our way in. It is impossible to earn a gift, therefore we have to receive God's gift and follow Jesus. No one is declared righteous by the Law.
We are now under the law of Christ - (Galatians 6:2)
The Law of Christ is this...
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” - (Matthew 22:37-40).
If we do these two things, we will be fulfilling all that Christ wants for us to do, “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” - (1 John 5:3).
The Ten Commandments are not even applicable to Christians, except to lead us to Christ. However, 9 of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God we won't be worshipping other gods or worshipping idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we won't be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. So, we are not under any of the requirements of the Old Testament law. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we do those two things faithfully, everything else will fall into place. We get the desires to do these things after we turn to Jesus with our 100% trust, knowing that Jesus alone can save us and nothing else. We are given new hearts with new desires. Although we still have temptatians and struggles, after we turn to Jesus, we will desire the things of God.

Jesus did come to fulfill the law and not to abolish or do away with the law (Matthew 5:17-18).
Jesus did not suggest that the law of Moses would remain in effect forever. That would contradict everything we learn in the New Testament.
"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes" - (Romans 10:4)
"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. - (Galatians 3:23-25)
"By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. - (Ephesians 2:15)

shnfx
Dec 30th 2007, 08:13 AM
If so how can i keep the sabbath holy if all the churchs congregate on sunday since the catholic church brought it in. Any way I try to keep the ten commandments but the sabbath is a puzzler to me and help is needed !!!! thanks

Your question specifically regarding the Sabbath. Again, you will get many different views so continue your journey through prayer and God's word.

"Sabbath rest" is the wonderful rest and peace that comes to us in Jesus because of His finished work for us on the cross. We no longer have 'work', Jesus did the 'work' for us and now our rest comes through Jesus Christ. Rest in Jesus Christ.

Our works, our sins, are finished on His cross. He finished the work and He finished our sins. The Son set and He brought eternal Sabbath-rest into our lives.

To those who believe...Our sins are finished. Our old lives are finished. We died with Him and are living in Him now, in the eternal Sabbath of His love, His life.

Studyin'2Show
Dec 30th 2007, 06:02 PM
**snip**
If we try to obey the 10 commandments (even out of Love for God) to get to heaven then we are not accepting the free gift from God in Jesus Christ, but are trying to earn our way in. It is impossible to earn a gift, therefore we have to receive God's gift and follow Jesus. No one is declared righteous by the Law.
**snip**
The Ten Commandments are not even applicable to Christians, except to lead us to Christ. However, 9 of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). **snip**I just wanted to address a couple of things you posted so I pulled out those little snips. First, I can only speak for myself, but I have never once eluded that we are to 'get into heaven' by keeping the commandments. God forbid! May no one ever be deceived into thinking this! :o I do not and could not do ANYTHING to earn my way to glory. As scripture says that is a free gift. Remembering the Sabbath has nothing to do with my salvation. I have been made righteous by the blood of Messiah alone! :pp I just wanted to share that so you would understand that keeping Sabbath in no way means rejecting the free gift of salvation through the blood of Yeshua. :D

Next, I'd like comment on your assertion that only 9 of the 10 commandments being repeated in the Apostolic Scriptures. I disagree and believe that all 10 commandments were confirmed by Messiah.

Luke 4:16 - So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Mark 2:27 - And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

The Sabbath, according to Yeshua, was made FOR us, so I have no trouble enjoying this free gift, as well! :D

God Bless!

Frances
Dec 30th 2007, 06:20 PM
i am having a problem with " the Law " should i be keeping the 10 commandments ?

Of course!!! Keeping the Sabbath set apart for the Lord is not difficult. I don't believe that specifically involves going to church on a Saturday. The Jewish Sabbath commemorated the day God rested when His Work of Creating the universe and everything in it was finished. As Christians we commemorate the day Jesus Christ rose from the dead - commemorating when His Work of Salvation was completed, which was the 'first day of the week' which is Sunday.

shnfx
Dec 30th 2007, 07:53 PM
I just wanted to address a couple of things you posted so I pulled out those little snips. First, I can only speak for myself, but I have never once eluded that we are to 'get into heaven' by keeping the commandments. God forbid! May no one ever be deceived into thinking this! :o I do not and could not do ANYTHING to earn my way to glory. As scripture says that is a free gift. Remembering the Sabbath has nothing to do with my salvation. I have been made righteous by the blood of Messiah alone! :pp I just wanted to share that so you would understand that keeping Sabbath in no way means rejecting the free gift of salvation through the blood of Yeshua. :D

Next, I'd like comment on your assertion that only 9 of the 10 commandments being repeated in the Apostolic Scriptures. I disagree and believe that all 10 commandments were confirmed by Messiah.

Luke 4:16 - So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Mark 2:27 - And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

The Sabbath, according to Yeshua, was made FOR us, so I have no trouble enjoying this free gift, as well! :D

God Bless!

I by no means was trying to imply that you said we have to 'work' to earn salvation. I am sorry if it came across that way.
I just want to stress that 'works' or keeping the 10 commandments have nothing to do with us being saved. It would take away what Jesus did for us on the cross. We are to seek Jesus, not the law, and that includes the Sabbath. We are not required to keep the sabbath. That does not mean that one cannot give a day or week or year to the Lord, but we are not required to for righteousness.

Peter had the same problem even after he knew the truth. That is why Paul opposed Peter because Peter was falling back to the demands of the Law. If we are bound to the Law, Paul's preaching would have made no sense.

It is through Jesus Christ alone that we should seek, not the demands of the Law. Through Jesus we are righteous and are given new desires to please God.

Studyin'2Show
Dec 30th 2007, 09:08 PM
Peter had the same problem even after he knew the truth. That is why Paul opposed Peter because Peter was falling back to the demands of the Law. If we are bound to the Law, Paul's preaching would have made no sense.

It is through Jesus Christ alone that we should seek, not the demands of the Law. Through Jesus we are righteous and are given new desires to please God.Actually, Peter's problem was not that he was as you imply 'falling back to the demands of the Law' OF MOSES. No, to the contrary. What Peter was falling back to was the demands of the oral law; the traditions of man that the religious leaders had allowed to supercede the word of God. My assertion is not based on some sort of feeling I have, but is rather based on scripture both Hebrew and Apostolic. Let's analyze, shall we?

Galatians 2:11-12
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

Now, look at what Peter stopped doing. He stopped EATING with Gentiles. Does the Law of God forbid Jews from EATING with those of a different nationality? Not at all! No where in the Hebrew scriptures does it say or even imply that there is a problem eating a meal with someone from a different nationality or even religion. What 'law' could Paul have been rebuking Peter for returning to? It was the oral traditions of man that Orthodox Jews still live under today. Yeshua Himself rebuked the religious leaders for setting aside the commandments of God to uphold the traditions of man. ;) It is very important to understand the language even today calls those oral traditions 'the law'. Understanding the difference between the oral tradition (law) and the word of God scriptural (Law) is key in understand how it is that Paul writes both negatively about the 'law' and positively about the Law.

God Bless!

shnfx
Jan 1st 2008, 12:13 AM
Actually, Peter's problem was not that he was as you imply 'falling back to the demands of the Law' OF MOSES. No, to the contrary. What Peter was falling back to was the demands of the oral law; the traditions of man that the religious leaders had allowed to supercede the word of God. My assertion is not based on some sort of feeling I have, but is rather based on scripture both Hebrew and Apostolic. Let's analyze, shall we?

Galatians 2:11-12
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

Now, look at what Peter stopped doing. He stopped EATING with Gentiles. Does the Law of God forbid Jews from EATING with those of a different nationality? Not at all! No where in the Hebrew scriptures does it say or even imply that there is a problem eating a meal with someone from a different nationality or even religion. What 'law' could Paul have been rebuking Peter for returning to? It was the oral traditions of man that Orthodox Jews still live under today. Yeshua Himself rebuked the religious leaders for setting aside the commandments of God to uphold the traditions of man. ;) It is very important to understand the language even today calls those oral traditions 'the law'. Understanding the difference between the oral tradition (law) and the word of God scriptural (Law) is key in understand how it is that Paul writes both negatively about the 'law' and positively about the Law.

God Bless!

Thank you for pointing that out to me regarding Peter as I am still learning something new everyday. I will seek more in to that topic as it interests me.

On a different note. What I strive to do from my struggles is to help people try to understand that the Law only shows how bad and evil we humans actually are. Again, the Law is the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Whether it be the oral law or the Ten Commandments, we cannot be made righteous by the Law. We rest in Christ and if we are in Christ we have been given a new heart with new desires - to follow the commands of Christ After one gives his life to Christ, we have a new will to serve God by following the commands of Christ. It is very important to understand that we are no longer in bondage to the old covenant law and are now under the new covenant Law in Christ. The 10 commandments only leads us to Christ, which is where we find righteousness. The sermon on the mount is a good description of how a follower of Christ should strive to live.
I want to help others understand that focusing so much on the law instead of Jesus actually can actually separate us from Jesus because we seek to please God by means of the Law instead of focusing out life on Jesus and his finished work. This happened to me regarding the Sabbath and I focused so much of my attention on the Sabbath, I forgot what Jesus actually did for me and saught to please God by keeping the Sabbath.

My Sabbath rest is in Jesus Christ, who finished the work for us all.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 1st 2008, 01:22 AM
The Law is the Word of God as much as Yeshua in the flesh ever was. The only difference is that the Word in the flesh provided a form of atonement, which is the covenant display of God's love for mankind, given to any obedient child of God who tries to please His/Her Father despite his/her faults.

Shalom,
Tanja

RoadWarrior
Jan 2nd 2008, 04:05 PM
Thank you everyone for your help in this matter, it seems there is a definete divide here or no coming together or agreement on the matter to put it another way. I'm in the same position as before as i have tried to research scripture and can find arguments for both sides !:confused

What do you do to keep Sabbath on friday evening to saturday ? i like your way of thinking ! keeping the Sabbath and still going to church but what do you do ?

Hi Nobunaga!

I went through a period of searching on the same issue, some years ago. The bottom line for me was realizing that the Sabbath is specifically about having a rest! Since then I have observed over and over in my own life and in the lives of my children and friends, how important it is to have a day of rest. God's design for our lives really is the best design.

While you are doing your Biblical research, look for the word "rest" and meditate on it. Especially read what Hebrews has to say about rest. The best answer you will get from anyone will be the answer God gives you from His word. Pray first, then study. Then follow the pattern,

Listen (to what God has said to you)
Meditate (on what He means by what He said)
Obey (what you have come to understand.)

When you have perfect peace about it, you will know that you have found the right answer.

shnfx
Jan 2nd 2008, 08:45 PM
Actually, Peter's problem was not that he was as you imply 'falling back to the demands of the Law' OF MOSES. No, to the contrary. What Peter was falling back to was the demands of the oral law; the traditions of man that the religious leaders had allowed to supercede the word of God. My assertion is not based on some sort of feeling I have, but is rather based on scripture both Hebrew and Apostolic. Let's analyze, shall we?

Galatians 2:11-12
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

Now, look at what Peter stopped doing. He stopped EATING with Gentiles. Does the Law of God forbid Jews from EATING with those of a different nationality? Not at all! No where in the Hebrew scriptures does it say or even imply that there is a problem eating a meal with someone from a different nationality or even religion. What 'law' could Paul have been rebuking Peter for returning to? It was the oral traditions of man that Orthodox Jews still live under today. Yeshua Himself rebuked the religious leaders for setting aside the commandments of God to uphold the traditions of man. ;) It is very important to understand the language even today calls those oral traditions 'the law'. Understanding the difference between the oral tradition (law) and the word of God scriptural (Law) is key in understand how it is that Paul writes both negatively about the 'law' and positively about the Law.

God Bless!

I have come across another post and wanted to share. I think it is actually unclear of all that Peter went back to doing. Athough you said "He stopped eating with Gentiles", I don't think that sums it up. See the following passage. The red does not explain alltogether what he went back to doing and the whole verse is to show that we cannot be justified throught works, but through faith in Christ only.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all,"If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 2nd 2008, 08:58 PM
Thank you ! i try to read the bible every day and hardly ever watch tv anymore and am constantly looking for answers i dont have regarding God. Can i ask if you are Jewish ? just that i have been listening to Micheal Brown and other Jewish people that believe in Jesus and they make a lot of sense to me as a non Jewish person but explain the
Old and New Testiment very well for me.:pp and also with regard to the Law ! Sabbath included

Nobunaga,

Hi there.

I have a tape set called "The Law and Holiness" Volume 1, that you might be interested in which will bless you tremendously. If you are interested just pm me!

Blessings, :kiss:
Connie

Studyin'2Show
Jan 3rd 2008, 02:40 AM
I have come across another post and wanted to share. I think it is actually unclear of all that Peter went back to doing. Athough you said "He stopped eating with Gentiles", I don't think that sums it up. See the following passage. The red does not explain alltogether what he went back to doing and the whole verse is to show that we cannot be justified throught works, but through faith in Christ only.I would have quoted the rest but it was really hard to read. You were quoting the next few verses. Remember, it all must be read in context of the letter that was being written. We have the chapters and verse divisions now and people tend to chop it up into separate sections missing the whole of it. I've included the portion you were attempting to post, plus the next verse.

Galatians 2:14-17
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

You see, I believe we're talking a bit in apples and oranges. I absolutely agree that we are NOT justified by living in the manner of the Jew. I do not live in the manner of a Jew. IMO, the Jews attempt to live beyond the Law of God. This is why they have made new laws, fence laws that say they can not eat milk and meat together; though that is no where in scripture. They have law that says they can not sit and eat with Gentiles, though that is no where in scripture. They have law that tells them how they must ritually wash their hands before meals; Yeshua rebuked them for paying more attention to the traditions than they did to the ACTUAL word of God. Peter had gone back to doing what those Pharisees were doing; caring more about these Jewish traditions (the manner of the Jews) than anything else. Then Paul says that even natural Jew knowing that they are not JUSTIFIED by works of the law, have come to Christ for their justification. :pp AMEN! It is through Messiah that we are justified. Now, let's look at verse 17. Paul is saying that though they are justified by Christ, they still are careful not to be found sinners themselves because Yeshua is not the minister of sin. So, you see, Paul was still conscious of not wanting to sin. What is sin? Sin is transgression of the Law of God. Do you see the apples and oranges? Paul is NOT concerned about living in the manner of the Jews (the law) but he IS concerned about not transgressing God's word (the Law). So much becomes more clear when you can separate the oral law from the Law of God and recognize the difference between the two in Paul's writings.

God Bless!

shnfx
Jan 4th 2008, 02:04 PM
You see, I believe we're talking a bit in apples and oranges. I absolutely agree that we are NOT justified by living in the manner of the Jew. I do not live in the manner of a Jew. IMO, the Jews attempt to live beyond the Law of God. This is why they have made new laws, fence laws that say they can not eat milk and meat together; though that is no where in scripture. They have law that says they can not sit and eat with Gentiles, though that is no where in scripture. They have law that tells them how they must ritually wash their hands before meals; Yeshua rebuked them for paying more attention to the traditions than they did to the ACTUAL word of God. Peter had gone back to doing what those Pharisees were doing; caring more about these Jewish traditions (the manner of the Jews) than anything else. Then Paul says that even natural Jew knowing that they are not JUSTIFIED by works of the law, have come to Christ for their justification. :pp AMEN! It is through Messiah that we are justified. Now, let's look at verse 17. Paul is saying that though they are justified by Christ, they still are careful not to be found sinners themselves because Yeshua is not the minister of sin. So, you see, Paul was still conscious of not wanting to sin. What is sin? Sin is transgression of the Law of God. Do you see the apples and oranges? Paul is NOT concerned about living in the manner of the Jews (the law) but he IS concerned about not transgressing God's word (the Law). So much becomes more clear when you can separate the oral law from the Law of God and recognize the difference between the two in Paul's writings.
God Bless!

Thanks for discussing with me.
If we both know that we are not justified by the oral law or the Law of Ten Commands then we both know that through Christ alone we are justified. We also both know that not one is righteous according the the works of the Law. All fall short of God's holy standard of his Commandments. If we all fall short of God's commands, then we know for fact we cannot keep His Law. Therefore, we who are in Christ are not judged by the Law, but through Christ. The Law was not made for the purpose for man to follow, but only to show us how Holy and perfect God's standard is and show us how unholy and unclean we are, which is why it points us to the savior. If the Law was created alone for the purpose of men to follow, we would obviously all be guilty and end up in hell because all have broken the Commandments and have turned our back on God. Keeping the Law from now on cannot make up for what we have already done. I am not saying that we should sin. God forbid! I am saying we need to be led to Christ through the Law and through Christ we are given a new heart with new desires to live for Christ and that leads us to repentance and a desire not to sin. We should not bound ourselves up by trying to live by the Law because it is not possible. Again, it only shows us our true colors. Trying to keep the Law can in a sense separate us from Christ because in a sense we are trying to rely on our own goodness (maybe that is not the way you feel, but this actually happened to me. I lost focus on Christ b/c I focused so much on trying to keep the Law). If we focus on Christ instead of keeping the Law, Christ lives through us and we therefore have new desires to not sin because Christ lives in us.

Here is an interesting scenario regarding attempting to keep the Law and relying on keeping the Law to help them enter heaven.

We know that Salvation is a gift from God and we cannot earn our way in to heaven.
If we focus so much on trying to keep the Ten Commandments in a sense we are trying to earn a spot in to heaven by our works.
"Imagine if you wanted to give me a brand new (very expensive) car, but I said, "I can't take it! I feel embarrassed receiving such a gift . . . here's 10 cents for it." I'm sure you would be very insulted by such a pathetic offer of payment. Besides, if I pay for it, it is no longer a gift, it's a purchase . . . it's mine by right
When we talk of entering Heaven by being good, by trying to keep the Ten Commandments etc., we are tossing God 10 cents of "self-righteousness," which is a terrible insult to Him, in the light of His sacrifice. The only thing we can do is humble ourselves, repent of our sins, and receive the gift by trusting Jesus Christ alone. Almighty God demonstrated how much He loves you when Jesus suffered for you on the cross. If you want to trust in your own goodness, then you are saying His agonizing death on the cross was in vain. The Bible says, "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." You cannot earn a gift." - Ray Comfort

So again, It is my attempt to help others understand that our focus should be on Christ and not the Law, but through Christ we are led away from sin and are no longer in bondage to the Law. I just don't want people's focus to be on the Law instead of on Christ. I am not saying that is how you feel specifically, but just want to help others to understand the function of the Law to the best of my ability so they keep their focus on Christ, who is the only One who can save us.

Have a good day Study!
Shane

Studyin'2Show
Jan 4th 2008, 04:25 PM
Yes, Shane, it is nice to discuss this issue rationally without making judgments. So many times it deteriorates into lots of pointing fingers. There is one point that I believe we seem to be in disagreement regarding and that is sin. The basic definition of sin is this:

(from this link http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/sin.html ) The word used to denote the willful breaking of God's law (http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/commandmentstheten.html). It is also the name of a biblical city (see bottom of this page (http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/sin.html#city)).

Sin is "any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God (http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/commandmentstheten.html)" (1 John 3:4 (http://christiananswers.net/bible/1john3.html#4); Rom. 4:15 (http://christiananswers.net/bible/rom4.html#15)), in the inward state and habit of the soul, as well as in the outward conduct of the life, whether by omission or commission (Rom. 6:12-17 (http://christiananswers.net/bible/rom6.html#12); 7:5-24 (http://christiananswers.net/bible/rom7.html#5)).
Sin, by definition, IS the transgression of God's Law. I don't see why there is a need to divorce onesself from this. No where in ALL of the Apostolic writings does it even imply that it is somehow bad to follow the commands (commandments) of God. It IS bad to think you will be JUSTIFIED if you do. Therefore, a desire to not sin is by definition a desire to abide by the Law of God. Which, BTW, is NOT the same as the desire to keep the oral law of the Jews.

Rullion Green
Jan 4th 2008, 06:02 PM
Thanks to you all for your advice. Greatly appreciated

shnfx
Jan 4th 2008, 06:20 PM
Thanks to you all for your advice. Greatly appreciated

Thank you. Through questions I often learn more and more about God's word when I seek to find answers from the word of God to help others. I tend to think that helping others often helps me more then the person I am trying to help.

I posted a link below regarding specifically keeping the Sabbath. This is my view on the sabbath. Again, don't believe me, but pray and check anything that is said against the word of God. May God be with you in your journey to seek out the will of God. Continue to seek and pray and God will answer.
http://www.carm.org/diff/Exod20_8.htm

RoadWarrior
Jan 4th 2008, 06:30 PM
...
http://www.carm.org/diff/Exod20_8.htm


Great link, thanks for sharing it.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 4th 2008, 07:31 PM
I read the link too and isn't it interesting that different people can look at the exact same scriptures and see completely different things. :hmm: I see that Yeshua said the Sabbath was made FOR man and see it as a gift, while others seem to see it as a curse. I see this as the reinstitution that the link's writer seems to miss when they state that only nine of the ten commandments were reinstituted. Ten being the biblical number of completeness, I believe Yeshua completely affirmed the word (commandments) of the Father; all of them. :D

God Bless!

RoadWarrior
Jan 4th 2008, 07:51 PM
I read the link too and isn't it interesting that different people can look at the exact same scriptures and see completely different things. :hmm: I see that Yeshua said the Sabbath was made FOR man and see it as a gift, while others seem to see it as a curse. I see this as the reinstitution that the link's writer seems to miss when they state that only nine of the ten commandments were reinstituted. Ten being the biblical number of completeness, I believe Yeshua completely affirmed the word (commandments) of the Father; all of them. :D

God Bless!

Hi Study,

I thought 7 was the number of completion and 10 is the number of testing. Perhaps we use different reference books. Mine says that the 10 commandments were the special test that God gave to Israel. Other examples of 10 being the number of testing, is the church of Smyrna who would be tested for 10 days, and the parable of 10 pounds illustrates that the Lord will test our service when He returns.

I'm wondering if you feel that we are all in sin because we are not "keeping" the Sabbath? If so, what are the implications for the millions of Christians who did not keep the Sabbath for all these centuries? And for all those throughout the world today, who do not keep the Sabbath as the religious Jews do?

I don't think I gave the impression that I thought the Sabbath was a curse, did I? If so, I apologize, I didn't mean to do so. I think everything that God gave to the Jews was a blessing. Even the Jews themselves are a blessing to us and to the world.

I found the link to be a good one in showing the scriptures side by side that way, and felt that it sheds more light on one of those perennially controversial subjects.

shnfx
Jan 4th 2008, 09:28 PM
I read the link too and isn't it interesting that different people can look at the exact same scriptures and see completely different things. :hmm:

Yes! very interesting and good point. It is hard to get the same views or answers from people regarding certain versus and there meaning in scripture. I guess it's more reason to pray and continue to God's word to seek his answers.

shnfx
Jan 4th 2008, 09:38 PM
Study

I came across the below verse yesterday and wondered your thoughts. From what I have learned or been taught, I see the Sabbath as a sign to Israel and not to be intended or required to keep for Christians. There isn't even one commandment in the New Testament for Christians to observe the Sabbath. The other 9 commandments are in the New Testament.

Exodus 31:15-17
"15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "

Shane

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 4th 2008, 10:08 PM
snfx,

I disagree with your statement quoted below:


There isn't even one commandment in the New Testament for Christians to observe the Sabbath.Read this section then:

Heb 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
Heb 4:2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my
Heb 4:4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."
Heb 4:5 And again in this passage he said, "They shall not enter my rest."
Heb 4:6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

For the bigger picture read Hebrews Chapter 3-4

However this clearly speaks of that 4th commandment, to remember the Sabbath day.

Shalom,
Tanja

Studyin'2Show
Jan 4th 2008, 10:26 PM
Exodus 31:15-17
"15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "

ShaneHi Shane!

Galatians 6:16 - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

I am part of the Israel of God! :ppI claim ALL the blessings of Abraham and Israel. And I see the sabbath as a blessing. ;)

God Bless!

shnfx
Jan 4th 2008, 11:58 PM
snfx,

I disagree with your statement quoted below:
Read this section then:

Heb 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
Heb 4:2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my
Heb 4:4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."
Heb 4:5 And again in this passage he said, "They shall not enter my rest."
Heb 4:6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

For the bigger picture read Hebrews Chapter 3-4

However this clearly speaks of that 4th commandment, to remember the Sabbath day.

Shalom,
Tanja

It depends on how it is interpreted by an individual. The above Hebrews quote is an example of the rest from our 'works' that we find in Jesus, not about observing a day. Jesus fulfilled the law, we rest in Jesus.
Don't you think Jesus himself would have commanded us to keep the Sabbath? He gave the other 9 commandments, but He did not command us to keep the Sabbath.

shnfx
Jan 5th 2008, 12:01 AM
Hi Shane!

Galatians 6:16 - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

I am part of the Israel of God! :ppI claim ALL the blessings of Abraham and Israel. And I see the sabbath as a blessing. ;)

God Bless!

It's all in how you interpret the Sabbath. For me the Sabbath rest is in Jesus as I am sure you find rest in him to.

God Bless
Shane

shnfx
Jan 5th 2008, 12:07 AM
Hi Shane!

Galatians 6:16 - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

I am part of the Israel of God! :ppI claim ALL the blessings of Abraham and Israel. And I see the sabbath as a blessing. ;)

God Bless!

I suppose we could go back and forth with versus. I definitely see the Sabbath as a blessing also. I find Sabbath Rest in Jesus for the work he did for us. It has been a pleasure talking with you on this subject.

Shane

shnfx
Jan 5th 2008, 03:34 PM
snfx,

I disagree with your statement quoted below:
Read this section then:

Heb 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
Heb 4:2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my
Heb 4:4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."
Heb 4:5 And again in this passage he said, "They shall not enter my rest."
Heb 4:6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

For the bigger picture read Hebrews Chapter 3-4

However this clearly speaks of that 4th commandment, to remember the Sabbath day.

Shalom,
Tanja

Let's look at Hebrews a bit closer and in more detail.

The book of Hebrews, considered as a whole, tells us that the practices of the Mosaic law are obsolete (7:11-12, 18-19). This would refer to the works or observances of the law (of which the Sabbath is one example) as opposed to its great moral principles. These "works of the law" include such practices or observances as meticulous tithing, circumcision, purification rites, festival regulations, temple worship and avoiding certain foods.
The new covenant theme of Hebrews suggests that the weekly Sabbath day as described in the old covenant has been superseded by a better promise. The weekly Sabbath can be celebrated and kept, but it need not be. However, Hebrews 4:9-11 itself does not directly state this.
Hebrews 4:9-11 tells us what the Sabbath pictures — the eternal rest of God into which we enter. But that is all it tells us. It does not seem to address the issue of whether the weekly Sabbath should be kept or not. This simply is not the author's interest.
Certainly the weekly Sabbath rest can point to the blessing and joy of the spiritual "rest" Christians have in Christ. This may be why the author of Hebrews may have coined the word sabbatismos — making a play off the word for the Sabbath day (sabbaton). That is, sabbatismos stressed the joy, the celebration, the peace, the jubilation of the spiritual "rest." (We've put "rest" in quotes here because inactivity is not really what is meant.)
Admittedly, Hebrews is a bit unclear as to the writer's attitude toward the weekly Sabbath day. Perhaps he wanted his readers, who were attracted to old covenant customs, to understand the Sabbath's true meaning in the light of the Christ event — without having to make an issue of whether it needs to be kept or not.
The Sabbath is meaningful on its own terms, just as the Passover-Exodus is. After all, the Sabbath stands as a metaphor of the whole purpose and meaning of redemption. It foreshadows the true spiritual "rest" we have in Christ every day. That's why Christians are free to keep the Sabbath to the degree they wish — and why it remains a tradition of the Worldwide Church of God.
But Hebrews 4:9 issues no command about keeping or not keeping the Sabbath. This verse cannot be used as a proof-text to insist that Christians keep a weekly seventh-day Sabbath rest. In summary, the verses in question do not exhort us to keep an old covenant Sabbath, but they do admonish us to enter the spiritual "rest" of God by having faith in Christ.
Written by Paul Kroll, 1995

For more information about the above article can be found at http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/hebrews4.9.htm

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 5th 2008, 06:10 PM
The book of Hebrews, considered as a whole, tells us that the practices of the Mosaic law are obsolete (7:11-12, 18-19). This would refer to the works or observances of the law (of which the Sabbath is one example) as opposed to its great moral principles. These "works of the law" include such practices or observances as meticulous tithing, circumcision, purification rites, festival regulations, temple worship and avoiding certain foods. How could that be true when Yeshua Himself said:

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

Also, i find it ironic that one wants to ignore that 4th commandment in the 10, where God commanded us to labor 6 days and rest on the seventh.....
To remember the Sabbath day, is to recall something of old, and to observe it.

You're free to use man's interpretation of the text, while i prefer to rely on God's Word and take scripture the way He leads me to understand.


Shalom,
Tanja

RoadWarrior
Jan 5th 2008, 06:28 PM
How could that be true when Yeshua Himself said:

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

Also, i find it ironic that one wants to ignore that 4th commandment in the 10, where God commanded us to labor 6 days and rest on the seventh.....
To remember the Sabbath day, is to recall something of old, and to observe it.

You're free to use man's interpretation of the text, while i prefer to rely on God's Word and take scripture the way He leads me to understand.


Shalom,
Tanja

Hi Tanja,

Lest we go too far astray from the OP...

Could you perhaps elaborate on "how" you "keep" the Sabbath? I think you have done a good job of showing "why" you do.

I personally try to rest on that day, but I don't do all the things that my Jewish or neo-Jewish friends do. It intimidates me to think of trying to learn how to incorporate all of that into my life! But if I could benefit from making some baby steps in that direction, I'd love it.

So for the sake of Nobunaga, and myself, I'd love to hear how you went about making this commandment an integral part of your schedule.

Thanks for sharing, if you choose to do so. If this feels like it should be a new thread, I'm willing to go there, also.

shnfx
Jan 5th 2008, 06:50 PM
You're free to use man's interpretation of the text, while i prefer to rely on God's Word and take scripture the way He leads me to understand.
Shalom,
Tanja

That is the key question. How should we understand the Sabbath day of rest? Here is another link. I would encourage you to please read this as it has great information pertaining to the Sabbath of old and the Sabbath rest we have in Jesus. Have a good weekend!

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Robert_Beecham/sabbath.htm

God Bless

Studyin'2Show
Jan 5th 2008, 08:16 PM
That is the key question. How should we understand the Sabbath day of rest? Here is another link. I would encourage you to please read this as it has great information pertaining to the Sabbath of old and the Sabbath rest we have in Jesus. Have a good weekend!

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Robert_Beecham/sabbath.htm

God BlessHi Shane!

I read the link and sorry, but I just don't see what you obviously see. I thought the author was continually taking scripture out of context to make their point. I'd like to just point one thing out that I thought was completely out of context.

Galatians 4:10-11
10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

The author seems to think that Paul was speaking here of observing the Sabbath. Yet, how about those who observe Christmas or easter. :rolleyes: But was Paul speaking about the Sabbath or the Passover or the other Feasts that God calls His own? Or was he referring to something else entirely? Let's look at the verses BEFORE.

Galatians 4:8-9
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?

So, these were those who had served other gods prior to coming to the real true God. Paul was NOT speaking to the Jews here. Evidently, these former pagans had gone back to their previous bondage. Observing pagans days and months and years. It's fairly simple to see that he is speaking to non-Jews so why would someone use verses 10-11 as if these pagans had gone BACK to observing Sabbath? Does that make any sense? Of course these pagans had NOT previously been observing Sabbath so that now Paul was rebuking them for keeping Sabbath. :rolleyes: We MUST exegete the scriptures properly.

God Bless!

P.S. On one point I did agree with the author and that was that Christians substituting Sunday for the Sabbath was improper. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 5th 2008, 11:07 PM
RoadWarrior,
Let me preface that I'm still and continually growing in knowledge and understanding. The same goes for the Sabbath.

I have had Sabbaths on which i took a complete rest, and just dwelt on the Word and read scripture. I however had other Sabbaths turn out to where i was involved in helping others with immediate needs. I found those Sabbaths to be the most refreshing and spiritually enlightening, and satisfying.

My mind went to the times we know Yeshua was in Sabbath observance, and healed people, spread the gospel, etc.

Yes we cease from work, that is daily functional work, creating and doing usual business.

My thoughts anymore are, that i want to visit the homeless, the sick, and the old, or possibly even those who are in prison, and just give them companionship, and perhaps share some knowledge with them.
I'm not talking giving any of these a sermon on the mount, but companionship, and understanding, and maybe some light, little by little.

I have never gotten into the Jewish liturgy and observation to the extreme, but some of it is certainly applicable, and good practice. There's a middle ground, i believe, that needs to be found by each of us individually.

I'm just sharing my thoughts here, for you to enrich yourself on hopefully.

I hope this helps, and should you have further questions, maybe you could pm me.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 5th 2008, 11:12 PM
Sfnx,

We will obviously disagree, so i'll just ditto Studying2Show's post, and leave it at that.

I have considered this issue for over 2 years if not more, so don't think i made a lighthearted decision. On the same line, i'm not inclined to change my view on what the Sabbath stands for and that it should be observed.

Shalom,
Tanja

shnfx
Jan 7th 2008, 04:36 PM
Sfnx,

We will obviously disagree, so i'll just ditto Studying2Show's post, and leave it at that.

I have considered this issue for over 2 years if not more, so don't think i made a lighthearted decision. On the same line, i'm not inclined to change my view on what the Sabbath stands for and that it should be observed.

Shalom,
Tanja

I have also considered this issue for a while as well. God bless both of you and may He give us all understanding of what he asks of us.

Shane

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 13th 2008, 04:59 PM
Thank you everyone for your help in this matter, it seems there is a definete divide here or no coming together or agreement on the matter to put it another way. I'm in the same position as before as i have tried to research scripture and can find arguments for both sides !:confused

What do you do to keep Sabbath on friday evening to saturday ? i like your way of thinking ! keeping the Sabbath and still going to church but what do you do ?

Nobunaga,

I hope God's Word blesses you richly.

Matt 22:35-40
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Rom 13:8-14
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


1 Tim 1:5-20
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.


James 2:8
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:


1 John 4:7-11
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that liveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.


1 John 4:19-21
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Jesus never did tell Jew or Gentile to keep the Sabbath day (the Law is Spiritual since we have The Holy Spirit now). It spiritually means to stop, by God's Grace and Holy Spirit, doing your (past) works - sin and unbelief - and to rest with God, believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ - Loving One Another as He has loved us through His Life, Death and Resurrection to New Life. Paul never commanded the Gentiles either in keeping the physical Sabbath. When we are buried with Christ, ceasing from sin by God's Grace in walking after The Spirit of Truth, it is fulfilled in us. Each day you do that you show your New Life in Christ where even the Whole Law is Fulfilled. When you walk in Love toward God and others the Righteousness of the law is filfilled in you, because of what Jesus paid for us on the Cross, as you walk not after the lusts of the flesh - sin - but after the Spirit of God. We can only understand this by Revelation and The Grace of God. But the Gentile believers by nature do the Commandments and proves that the Law is written on their (our) hearts. You don't see many Gentile believers doing the letter of "Sabbath" but you see it instictfully in their lives. And they don't 'work it up' it's already being done through them which hangs on: Loving God surpremely and your neighbor as yourself and of course the New Commandment, Love One Another as Jesus has loved us in His Life and in His Death and Resurrection. I myself, at one point of my life, looked at the letter of the Law but I was missing Jesus, the Rightness of The Law, who it pointed to. Yes, do what others who sit in Moses sit tell you, Look unto Jesus who they are really teaching about, but don't do as they do because they DON'T see Jesus who they really are affirming yet they don't know.

But mostly, God can show you by His Grace and Spirit; He's God,
Connie

Studyin'2Show
Jan 13th 2008, 07:22 PM
Hello Connie!

I have NOT seen any scripture where Yeshua tells His disciples to STOP keeping Sabbath (as it was intended). He does tell them that the Sabbath was made FOR man. It's a good thing! I, for one, do not keep Sabbath legalistically as the religious leaders of His day were doing or even as the Orthodox Jews of today do. I remember it and in doing so I weekly celebrate God creating in six days and resting on the seventh. Which is one of the reasons He tells us to remember it. I also keep it holy by not letting myself get distracted by the busyness of this world. However, as JiMH has stated that she does, I also have used the day to help those in need.

One thing I believe is important to see is that Yeshua spiritualized ALL 10 of the Father's commandments, however, in do so He does not negate the physical side of the command. For example, in telling us not to hate our brother He is not saying it's now okay to murder him. On the contrary, He is saying that if we obey the spiritual we will in doing so also obey the physical. It is the same with the Sabbath if we take the time to understand what the Sabbath is for. It is, as Yeshua said, for US! I spiritually rest in Him, and in doing so understand why the Father commanded man to rest (physically). I have known too many believers who have burned themselves out working 24 hrs, 7 days a week, 365 a year. Then once burned out they are no good to even themselves. Physical rest is good for our bodies just as spiritual rest is good for our souls. They are not concepts that need to be contrary to one another, but should rather work in conjunction with one another so that we, as believers, can be well rested; both body and soul. ;)

God Bless!

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 14th 2008, 02:44 AM
Hello there Studyin'2Show,

Thank you for your understanding, but I see it very differently and believe I have been taught "by good example". I believe it's deeper than just physical rest - even bodily exercise profits little so does natural rest. So then there is a Spiritual walk to take hold of, lest the thief comes in to steal, kill and destroy.

So, I suppose God recalls The Sabbath Day in me each time He sees that I am buried with Christ, no longer willing to sin but considering myself dead and buried in walking after the flesh. This is how Paul also seen the Law fulfilled in the Gentile believers they proved that they were not of the world but that they walked after the Spirit. I suppose if I worked 24 hours a day but walked in the Spirit God, by His Grace, He is well pleased. Man looks at the ourward but God looks at the heart (the fruit of his exchanged life for Christ'). Jesus is my Sabbath Rest - 24/7 - everyday, He is who I remember - He is My Rest and Life, because I am crucified with Him and buried with Him. And I am Born Again where there is no transgression of the law - I am no longer under the judgment (curses) of the law because of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus in me and I am called to no longer walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. This is how the Sabbath Day is made for me and testifies of Jesus in me, by His Grace alone.

Thank you for your post and your good intital time.

God's Peace to you,
Connie

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 03:47 AM
Connie, you are quite correct that it is more than JUST the physical. If you go back through the thread you'll see we have discussed that Yeshua did indeed spiritualize ALL the commandments. What the spiritual fulfillment does not do, however, is negate the physical. Here's an example. Yeshua telling us that lusting in our hearts is already committing adultery doesn't mean it's now okay to 'physically' commit adultery. Quite the contrary. Not lusting in our heart will keep us from committing the physical act. I most certainly enjoy my 'spiritual' rest in Messiah. This fact does not prevent me from enjoying 'physical' rest as well. ;) As I already mentioned, I do not let anyone judge me regarding such things as this so, I respect your right to not enjoy the physical rest on the Sabbath. It would be nice if other believers would respect my right to enjoy it. :D

God Bless!

Jesus-Is-Real
Jan 14th 2008, 04:08 AM
I trust they do respect you. But if they don't, God is still love toward you and it's always His approval we seek never man's which could bring a snare.

And of course, if you don't walk in lust of the flesh (selfishness, self centeredness) but in God's Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the lusts of the body, you will do well and the powers of darkness can't steal, kill nor destroy you, you would have overcome in Jesus' nature and character. Glory.

Do we all here have permission to use url's in our signature lines, or is it against the rules here?

Good night and God bless you my friend.
Peace,
Connie

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 12:14 PM
Do we all here have permission to use url's in our signature lines, or is it against the rules here? Yes, you can use links as long as they are not to a commercial site or a site that solicits money. Mine is for our house fellowship's website, and my testimony on that site. The center one is for my weekly podcast called FaithWorks which is absolutely free! :D As soon as you get to the 30 day point (as you already have more than 40 posts :o) you will be able to do your own sig. ;)

God Bless!

Clifton
Jan 17th 2008, 02:48 AM
Oh no, not another thread on the Sabbath! :B

The ghost of Ozzy Osbourne must be admist here :lol:

I was looking at of 492 denominations that are, or have begun to observe the Sabbath (Saturday). Last I read, there are over 500 now. Either we are moving forward by going home, or we are moving backward by leaving home ;) But next trip to the Courthouse, I'm not telling them to take the 10 Commandments down and replace them with the 9 commandments, besides, Judges want off both Saturday and Sunday. :D Actually, I doubt our Courthouse that is one that has them there anyway.

As for the web site that had the 492 denominations listed, I am not yet (if ever) comfortable in posting that link. However, perhaps I can list the 10 commandments as addressed in the Christian Greek Scriptures, but I broke the links that were in the list;) :
First Commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me
Matthew 4:10; 6:24; 22:37-38; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7.
Second Commandment: Thou shalt not worship Idols
Acts 15:20; 17:16; 29; 1 Corinthians 5:10-11; 6:9; 10:7, 14, 19; 12:2; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Galatians 5:20; Ephesians 5:5; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Peter 4:3; 1 John 5:21; Revelation 2:14; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15.
Third Commandment: Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain
Matthew 5:33-34; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7.
Fourth Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy
Matthew 12:8, 12; 24:20; Mark 1:21; 2:27-28; 6:2; Luke 4:16, 31; 6:5; 23:56; Acts 13:14, 42, 44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:4, 9-10 (See also Amplified, ASV, BBE, NASB, NIV, RSV and NRSV.)
Fifth Commandment: Honour your father and your mother
Matthew 15:4; 19:19; Mark 7:10; 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:30; Ephesians 6:1-2; Colossians 3:20; 2 Timothy 3:2.
Sixth Commandment: Thou shalt not Murder
Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 7:21; 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29; 13:9; Galatians 5:21; 1 Timothy 1:9; James 2:11; 1 Peter 4:15; 1 John 3:15; Revelation 9:21; 21:8; 22:15.
Seventh Commandment: Thou shalt not commit Adultery
Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 7:21; 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Acts 21:25; Romans 1:29; 2:22; 7:3; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:9, 18; 10:8; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Hebrews 13:4; James 2:11; 2 Peter 2:14; Jude 1:7; Revelation 2:14; 2:21-22; 9:21.
Eighth Commandment: Thou shalt not Steal
Matthew 19:18; Mark 7:22; 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 2:21; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:10-11; 6:10; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21.
Ninth Commandment: Thou shalt not bear false witness
Matthew 15:19; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; John 8:44; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 1:29; 13:9; Ephesians 4:25; Colossians 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:2; 2 Timothy 3:3; Revelation 21:8; 22:15.
Tenth Commandment: Thou shalt not Covet your neighbour’s things
Mark 7:22; Luke 12:15; Acts 20:33; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:10-11; 6:10; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3, 5; 1 Timothy 6:10; 2 Timothy 3:2; 2 Peter 2:14; Hebrews 13:5.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 17th 2008, 03:12 AM
The ghost of Ozzy Osbourne must be admist here :lol:Ozzy's not dead! He just looks like that all the time. :rofl:

Clifton
Jan 18th 2008, 12:16 AM
Ozzy's not dead! He just looks like that all the time. :rofl:


:rofl:Walks that way too. :D


Apparently, unknown to me, or not recognized by me, is somehow the 10 commandments are innocently and inadvertently getting “mixed up” with the 600+ commands of Moses (I think it is 603, plus the 10, totaling 613).

The 10 stay, but the 600+, well, not all of those are feasible now-n-days, but some of them were "based" on the 10 commandments.

Example: In America, you cannot steal. If you are caught, you can get fined and/or imprisoned, Or, perhaps the mercy of the Judge will let you off, or let you off easy: a debt to pay. I think we as Christians, the debt has been paid through Christ. OTOH, there is Obadiah 1:15 and Galations 6:7;
IOW, "What goes around comes around". But I feel that is also true for good things as well.;)

-SEEKING-
Apr 5th 2012, 02:05 AM
There is a contradiction i am having a problem with " the Law " should i be keeping the 10 commandments ? some say Jesus done away with the law and we no longer have to be strict in obedience to it, some say it's just a guide on how to be a good person and please the Lord. But the Lord said he did not come to abolish the he came to fulfill the law, so should we therefore keep the law as the Jews the believe in Jesus do ? If so how can i keep the sabbath holy if all the churchs congregate on sunday since the catholic church brought it in. The only church that i am aware of that keeps the sabbath is the seventh day adventist church but i do not want to go there as i do not believe some of what they teach, i find it hard to even find a church that is true to the word am talking about preachers like paul washer and alike ! i like there message but no one seems to be doing it. Any way I try to keep the ten commandments but the sabbath is a puzzler to me and help is needed !!!! thanks

Great question. This is something I was just thinking about today.

Noeb
Apr 5th 2012, 04:11 AM
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

My translations based on Strong's,
I am not come to destroy, but to fill up.
I am not come to destroy, but to make replete.
I am not come to destroy, but to cram it full.
I am not come to destroy, but to perfect.

People should obey it as Jesus explained it, not it the way man misused it. When it says the law is abolished/done away it's the carnal aspect (letter), not the spiritual aspect Jesus brought to light (letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life), and more importantly, it was no longer the way to obtain salvation (2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.).

Rullion Green
Apr 5th 2012, 06:36 AM
Oh man too funny ! ......:rofl:

Yip.... i'll be keeping my mouth shut from now on about old threads..... blush blush.

(Note to all users....Old Nobunaga threads should never be raised from the dead....... They stinketh !)

John 8:32
Apr 5th 2012, 02:26 PM
Excellent question and one that I struggled with for a long time myself. I will do my best to try to help you in what I have learned in my previous struggle with this same topic. It just recently was made known to me and I finally feel at peace, thanks to God. I hope I can help you in your journey to seek understanding. You will probably get a lot of different responses so don't just pick which one you want to believe, but believe in God and his word only. Continue to pray and read God's word. I only want to help you from what I learned through my journey.
We are no longer under the law of Moses.
We are no longer in bondage to the law of Moses.

The law of Moses or the law of God? They are not the same…
The law of God…

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

Exo 24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
Who wrote this law? God did with His finger.

God did not delegate something as important as His Ten Commandments to Moses to write down. God wrote them with His own finger. He also spoke them directly to Israel…

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

So now someone will quote…

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Notice why and until when it was added? It was added because of transgressions, because of sin. Now what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Added until the Seed should come (Jesus Christ) who was the propitiation for sin. The book of Hebrews is about the change of the Priesthood from Levitical to Melchisedec and the change of the sacrificial laws.

When was it added? Not at Mt Sinai…

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Notice He added no more to the Ten Commandments.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Also, notice they are written in stone. Where do you think the term written in stone comes from? From the Ten Commandments and it means not changeable, stays same forever, eternal.

The law of Moses…

Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.

Deu 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Deu 4:45 These are the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which Moses spake unto the children of Israel, after they came forth out of Egypt,

Deu 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. (Notice who the I here is)

OK now let’s read Gal 3:24 with some understanding…


Is the law necessary? - Yes, to lead us to Christ.
"The Law is the schoolmaster to leads us to Christ". - (Galatians 3:24) The Law shows us our sin, which is why we need Christ to save us. Christ fulfilled God's requirement of the law and also paid the penalty we deserve for breaking God's law. Christ is where we find righteousness, not by obedience to the law. If we are justified by the law, Christ died for nothing.
"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" - (Galatians 2:21)
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

What in the world in the ten commandments was offered year by year and continually? Nothing, this is not speaking of the Ten Commandments, it is speaking of the law of sacrifices that was the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yes, Christ did it once and for all, He paid the price for sin through His blood.



If we try to obey the 10 commandments (even out of Love for God) to get to heaven then we are not accepting the free gift from God in Jesus Christ, but are trying to earn our way in. It is impossible to earn a gift, therefore we have to receive God's gift and follow Jesus. No one is declared righteous by the Law.
We are now under the law of Christ - (Galatians 6:2)
The Law of Christ is this...
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” - (Matthew 22:37-40).
If we do these two things, we will be fulfilling all that Christ wants for us to do, “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” - (1 John 5:3).
The Ten Commandments are not even applicable to Christians, except to lead us to Christ.

Not having other Gods? Not taking the name of God in vain? Not committing adultery, not killing, not lying, not stealing? These laws are not applicable to Christians?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And then He begins to innumerate the Ten Commandments so there is no doubt.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


The Apostle of love, the Apostle John says…

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.



However, 9 of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day).

It’s always that fourth one, isn’t it?


Obviously, if we are loving God we won't be worshipping other gods or worshipping idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we won't be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. So, we are not under any of the requirements of the Old Testament law. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we do those two things faithfully, everything else will fall into place. We get the desires to do these things after we turn to Jesus with our 100% trust, knowing that Jesus alone can save us and nothing else. We are given new hearts with new desires. Although we still have temptatians and struggles, after we turn to Jesus, we will desire the things of God.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Jesus did come to fulfill the law and not to abolish or do away with the law (Matthew 5:17-18).

Take two Styrofoam cups, fill one with water and crush the other in your hand and throw it away. Now which one did you fulfill? The one you did away with? Or the one you added to…

Isa_42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.


Jesus did not suggest that the law of Moses would remain in effect forever. That would contradict everything we learn in the New Testament.
"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes" - (Romans 10:4)

The word for end here is…

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Hmmm, keeping the Father's Commandments is here equated with abiding in His love.


"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. - (Galatians 3:23-25)
"By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. - (Ephesians 2:15)

The law that was abolished in His flesh was the law of animal sacrifices as we saw in Heb 10.

If the law of God were truly abolished, then no one needs Jesus Christ to save us from sin…

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So, no law = no sin = no need for a savior. If you believe this, I have a bridge…

P.S. I keep the seventh day Sabbath and I can testify that it is not grievous, it is a joy and a blessing.

John 8:32
Apr 5th 2012, 02:39 PM
Just a side note about Rom 5:13-14...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Also notice…

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If death reigned from Adam to Moses, apparently someone was sinning and sin is not imputed when there is no law. The Ten Commandments were in effect before Adam…

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Hmmm, says here that Satan was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. If there was no law there was no murder or lying. You may draw your own conclusions, I have.

buster
Apr 9th 2012, 12:09 AM
Excellent question and one that I struggled with for a long time myself. I will do my best to try to help you in what I have learned in my previous struggle with this same topic. It just recently was made known to me and I finally feel at peace, thanks to God. I hope I can help you in your journey to seek understanding. You will probably get a lot of different responses so don't just pick which one you want to believe, but believe in God and his word only. Continue to pray and read God's word. I only want to help you from what I learned through my journey.

We are no longer under the law of Moses.
We are no longer in bondage to the law of Moses.
Is the law necessary? - Yes, to lead us to Christ.
"The Law is the schoolmaster to leads us to Christ". - (Galatians 3:24) The Law shows us our sin, which is why we need Christ to save us. Christ fulfilled God's requirement of the law and also paid the penalty we deserve for breaking God's law. Christ is where we find righteousness, not by obedience to the law. If we are justified by the law, Christ died for nothing.
"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" - (Galatians 2:21)
If we try to obey the 10 commandments (even out of Love for God) to get to heaven then we are not accepting the free gift from God in Jesus Christ, but are trying to earn our way in. It is impossible to earn a gift, therefore we have to receive God's gift and follow Jesus. No one is declared righteous by the Law.
We are now under the law of Christ - (Galatians 6:2)
The Law of Christ is this...
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” - (Matthew 22:37-40).
If we do these two things, we will be fulfilling all that Christ wants for us to do, “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” - (1 John 5:3).
The Ten Commandments are not even applicable to Christians, except to lead us to Christ. However, 9 of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God we won't be worshipping other gods or worshipping idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we won't be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. So, we are not under any of the requirements of the Old Testament law. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we do those two things faithfully, everything else will fall into place. We get the desires to do these things after we turn to Jesus with our 100% trust, knowing that Jesus alone can save us and nothing else. We are given new hearts with new desires. Although we still have temptatians and struggles, after we turn to Jesus, we will desire the things of God.

Jesus did come to fulfill the law and not to abolish or do away with the law (Matthew 5:17-18).
Jesus did not suggest that the law of Moses would remain in effect forever. That would contradict everything we learn in the New Testament.
"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes" - (Romans 10:4)
"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. - (Galatians 3:23-25)
"By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. - (Ephesians 2:15)

This certainly feels very comforting. But I still think it wise to keep the law (even just the 10 commandments) too, because it is very good if everyone is nice to each other. I'd basically like to see a society where everyone gets along with each other, helps each other out in times of need, does not hurt others (physically or mentally), and has a heart for others.

buster
Apr 9th 2012, 12:44 AM
In fact, I even have quite a few reasons to keep the Ten Commandments.
#1; You shall have no gods but me.
Jesus is the only thing capable of getting you into heaven.
#2; You shall make no statues or pictures of gods, nor shall you pray to any god but me.
Same as first commandment.
#3; You shall not use the Lord's name in vain.
Many people are very intolerant of profanity, and especially when the Lord's name is used in a profane manner.
#4; Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
Working all 7 days a week is not only tiring for many people, it can actually be detrimental to your health and well being in the long run. People who are known as "workaholics" usually tend to be short tempered, unhappy, and sleep deprived. And in fact, people really should only work 5 days maximum per week, as that is in fact the normal full time workweek.
#5; Honor your mother and father.
Your mom and dad are the reason you are here today, and while it is very true that you can not marry your mom or dad, it is still nice to show some affection, help them when they need it, and when they are old and wrinkled, return the affection they showed you when you were little.
#6; You shall not commit murder.
Murder is a horrible, nasty thing to do to someone. And once a person is dead, there is nothing that can bring that person back, so naturally, the guilt, and stuff like total resentment of that person's family, friends, etc, is with the perpetrator for the rest of his/her life.
#7; You shall not commit adultery.
How many of you have ever watched the Jerry Springer show before? And how many episodes have you seen of the Jerry Springer show that showed couples "cheating" (committing adultery) on one another? None of those couples were happy, were they? Not to mention all the fighting on stage that occurs roughly every time a partner (boyfriend/girlfriend, fiancee, husband/wife) confesses to his/her other that he/she cheated (committed adultery) on his/her partner. Adultery (sleeping/having sex with someone other than who you are committed to, also known on the Jerry Springer show as a "love triangle") is a very painful and heartbreaking thing to happen to a couple. It is basically the quickest way to end up dumped and/or divorced, as it has done to numerous couples on the Springer show. Not to mention other nasty stuff that can result from especially continued adultery, such as, for instance, HIV/AIDS (a terminal disease!), genital herpes, genital warts, and not to mention unwanted pregnancies that often lead to abortion (which is in violation of Commandment #6!).
#8; You shall not steal.
Stealing is a totally unfair practice of obtaining anything. It taints someone's life, sometimes severely, makes their work feel like it was spent in vain.
#9; You shall not lie.
Lying can cause distrust amongst people and is highly capable of wrecking especially an innocent person's reputation. It can also cause corruption in government. And in fact, this one phrase explains a biggie about it; "Tell a lie, then when you tell the truth, it will be thought of as a lie."
#10 You shall not envy your neighbor or desire anything that belongs to him.
With grocery, outlet, and department stores everywhere, plus of course flea markets, this one ought to be easy to follow. Once again, it is not exactly fair at all for your neighbor to lose a posession of his to you because you wanted it. For instance, you see your neighbor wearing a beautiful tuxedo, you don't think; "I want that tuxedo!" or go up to him and say; "I want your tuxedo!" Instead, you simply walk up to him and say something nicer, like; "Nice tuxedo. What store did you get it from?" And when/if he tells you where he got it from, you can simply go to that store, and you may even find a tuxedo that looks exactly like your neighbor's.

Sam07
Apr 11th 2012, 01:53 AM
There is a contradiction i am having a problem with " the Law " should i be keeping the 10 commandments ? some say Jesus done away with the law and we no longer have to be strict in obedience to it, some say it's just a guide on how to be a good person and please the Lord. But the Lord said he did not come to abolish the he came to fulfill the law, so should we therefore keep the law as the Jews the believe in Jesus do ? If so how can i keep the sabbath holy if all the churchs congregate on sunday since the catholic church brought it in. The only church that i am aware of that keeps the sabbath is the seventh day adventist church but i do not want to go there as i do not believe some of what they teach, i find it hard to even find a church that is true to the word am talking about preachers like paul washer and alike ! i like there message but no one seems to be doing it. Any way I try to keep the ten commandments but the sabbath is a puzzler to me and help is needed !!!! thanks

I believe the apostles, answered this question after the gentiles received salvation, when men from Judea went to the gentiles and told them they had to be circumcised to be saved, Paul and Barnabas strongly opposed them because they taught that salvation was through Jesus, because they knew no man could be saved by obeying the law. Acts 15

They took this matter to be heard in front of the apostles at Jerusalem, because these men were brought up in the law, and walked with Jesus, and understood the relationship between there traditions and Jesus teachings, so they had the insight, experience and wisdom to hear this matter, and a sect of the pharisees also said the gentiles needed to obey Moses law.

The apostles considered all these arguments and after much discussion, they concluded that they them selves being born Jews, who were brought up in the traditions and customers of the law, struggled with the traditions and customers of the law, they immediately realized there was no way the gentiles would have understood it.

So the apostles agreed not to burden or coerce the gentiles, with the law, but gave them 3 statutes to observe which were to refrain from eating meats offered to idols, not to commit adultery or fornication, or eat meat that had been strangled, after the book of acts Paul continues to write to fellowships about being under the grace of God and the Spirit and to remain being free from the letter of the law.

Sometimes people who have received Jesus under grace and began in grace, try to return back under the letter of the law, to obey some of the old testament teachings, not realizing that the OT was the foundation for the new testament to be built upon, so God could continue his plan of reconciliation, the NT is the amendment and continuation of the OT they both work together.

The new testament cant continue or exist without the OT, because the OT is its foundation and has to be fulfilled, and the OT cant be fulfilled unless there is a continuation of another testament, and that testament is the new testament, to whom we have received under grace NT and not under law, OT therefore this is the good news and security we rejoice in today amen.

I hope this helps

Peace

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 01:22 PM
Of course!!! Keeping the Sabbath set apart for the Lord is not difficult. I don't believe that specifically involves going to church on a Saturday. The Jewish Sabbath commemorated the day God rested when His Work of Creating the universe and everything in it was finished. As Christians we commemorate the day Jesus Christ rose from the dead - commemorating when His Work of Salvation was completed, which was the 'first day of the week' which is Sunday.

As Christians we commemorate the day Jesus Christ rose from the dead - commemorating when His Work of Salvation was completed, which was the 'first day of the week' which is Sunday

Is this scriptural? Can man change one of Gods 10 commandments for any reason

Matthew 15:7-9 (KJV)
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Is above scripture true?

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 01:31 PM
We are not required to keep the sabbath. That does not mean that one cannot give a day or week or year to the Lord, but we are not required to for righteousness.

Peter had the same problem even after he knew the truth. That is why Paul opposed Peter because Peter was falling back to the demands of the Law.

Peter and Paul had their differences about circumcision and eating with the gentiles. Nothing about the sabbath.

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 01:36 PM
Again, the Law is the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

Yes shnfx but just what does that scripture say about the schoolmaster?

GALATIANS 3[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[13] CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH.

Christ did not come to destroy the law but came to redeem us from the curse of the law that we might recieve the promise of the spirit through FAITH. BUT...

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law (10 commandments). We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. Faith is not something that you mysteriously attain attain at birth. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. Then there is no condemnation. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 01:53 PM
I have come across another post and wanted to share. I think it is actually unclear of all that Peter went back to doing. Athough you said "He stopped eating with Gentiles", I don't think that sums it up. See the following passage. The red does not explain alltogether what he went back to doing and the whole verse is to show that we cannot be justified throught works, but through faith in Christ only.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all,"If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Man could never be justified by the works of the law. We all have fallen short. We all are as filthy rags. Its only by grace through faith we are saved. A free gift. But...to whom is this free gift given? Jim Jones (the kool aid kid)? David Koresh? Or is it these guys below

REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, and THE FAITH OF JESUS.

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 02:04 PM
I'm wondering if you feel that we are all in sin because we are not "keeping" the Sabbath? If so, what are the implications for the millions of Christians who did not keep the Sabbath for all these centuries? And for all those throughout the world today, who do not keep the Sabbath as the religious Jews do?


The millions of Christians? I dont believe there will be strength in numbers when Christ returns

LUKE 12 [31] But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.[32] FEAR NOT, LITTLE FLOCK; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

only a little flock will enter the kingdom

MATT.7 [13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,and many there be which go in thereat:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.

few there be that find it

MATT.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[22] MANY WILL SAY to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

In footnotes of the KJB, iniquity equals lawlessness. You can find this in 2 THES. 2 verse 7. And the many have come in the name of JESUS saying we need not keep GODS 10 commandments.

LUKE 13 [23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: FOR MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Jesus himself tells us that “the many” will not enter the Kingdom. And he explains why. They are workers of iniquity. They do not keep Gods law. HIS 10 commandments.

ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.[4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, BROKEN THE EVERLASTING COVENANT.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, AND FEW MEN LEFT.

The DAY OF THE LORD (when Christ returns) and again the Word says that only a few will be saved to the kingdom. And more importantly the Word tells us why

AlephTav
Apr 14th 2012, 02:18 PM
One of the original questions WWWAAAYYY back in 2007, was for those who keep a 7th day Sabbath (Saturday), what does it look like? Now I don't know if any of those people 5 years ago are still around, but here are my thoughts and applications today.

I was saved 18 years ago, and started keeping Torah (the law) and the Sabbath about 6 years ago. I'm still saved solely by the life, death and resurection of Jesus, but I do my best to walk in the commands He gave in the OT (If you believe the Father and Son are one, then Jesus also gave the Torah, or law). We honor the Sabbath starting Friday at sundown until Saturday at sundown. Usually, we bring in the Sabbath with a slightly nicer dinner than normal (which can be hard with a busy life and 3 small kids), and we usually sing special songs, say special kinds of prayers with our kids, and will bless them.

We go to a Sabbath keeping church on Saturday (where I'm one of the pastors). We worship, we teach, we pray, do some Hebraic dance, and we have a meal fellowship after the service. We live stream our service on the net so that other people who keep the Sabbath but don't have a fellowship can be a "part" of our service.We have a 2nd service that is geared more to the kids, but includes everyone, which is more participant-involved. After the service (5-6 hrs later), we will usually go to someone's house for fellowship.

We don't work at our jobs if at all possible on the Sabbath and we don't worry about cleaning the house or anything like that. We choose to set this day apart as holy to God, and we try to make it as uncommon as possible. We don't watch TV, movies, etc, but spend more time with fellow believers and family, in the Word and in prayer.

We haven't gone to a Sunday church in about 7 years or so. I don't mind if people do go to church on Sunday, so long as it's not meant to be a replacement of the original Sabbath. History shows pretty clearly how and why the church changed the sabbath to Sunday. But, if people are genuinely worshiping our Lord and Saviour, Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ), and they happen to do it on Sunday, that OK with me. Just as I know there are areas of the Word I don't understand right now, and just as I know there are parts of my relationship with God that I don't get, I have patience on others in the same boat who might not see what I see. Because God knows there is plenty I don't see yet that others do. It's all about a progressive maturity in our walk with God.

Hope this is helpful to anyone curious about a 7th day Sabbath.
Blessings and Shabbat Shalom!
AT

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 02:32 PM
There isn't even one commandment in the New Testament for Christians to observe the Sabbath. The other 9 commandments are in the New Testament.

Shane

EX.20 [7] Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I cant seem to find this commandment in the new testament. Im not saying its not there. I just cant seem to find it. Have you?

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 02:34 PM
Hope this is helpful to anyone curious about a 7th day Sabbath.
Blessings and Shabbat Shalom!
AT

Wonderful! May you enjoy this wonderful sabbath day

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 03:14 PM
snfx,

I disagree with your statement quoted below:
Read this section then:

Heb 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
Heb 4:2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my
Heb 4:4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."
Heb 4:5 And again in this passage he said, "They shall not enter my rest."
Heb 4:6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

For the bigger picture read Hebrews Chapter 3-4
However this clearly speaks of that 4th commandment, to remember the Sabbath day.

Shalom,
Tanja

Yeah Jesusinmyheart. Hebrews 3 and 4 tells us we are to keep Gods sabbath day

HEBREWS 4 [6] Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:[7] Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS.

You find "harden not your hearts" in Hebrew 4. You also see that in Hebrews 3. Talkin bout the same thing.

HEBREWS 3 [12]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [15] While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, AS IN THE PROVOCATION. [16] For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came OUT OF EGYPT by Moses. [17] But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, WHOSE CARCASES FELL IN THE WILDERNESS? [18] And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19] So we see that THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

Scripture above (out of Egypt - into the wilderness - those that believed not - destroyed them)
Scripture below (out of Egypt - into the wilderness - polluted HIS SABBATHS - destroyed them)

EZEK.20 [10] Wherefore I caused them to go forth OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, and brought them INTO THE WILDERNESS. [11] And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.[12] Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.[13] But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLLUTED: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them IN THE WILDERNESS, TO CONSUME THEM.

Hebrews 3 and Ezek 20 also speaking of the same thing. So, how do you deny God and Jesus according to this new testament scripture,and walk in the spirit of unbelief. Who are these people and why were they killed in the wilderness? The answer would be very important, as this passage from the NEW TESTAMENT tells us NOT to do as they did and walk with an evil heart of unbelief. When we go back to the old testament to see exactly what the new testament is talkin about we find that Hebrews 3 is speaking of those who did not keep the sabbath and how the Lord was to destroy them in the wilderness because of unbelief. So the scripture in Hebrews 3 is telling us, as believers we must keep the sabbath, and not to walk with an evil heart of unbelief.

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 03:23 PM
After all, the Sabbath stands as a metaphor of the whole purpose and meaning of redemption. It foreshadows the true spiritual "rest" we have in Christ every day.

You seem to be jumping the gun a bit on our "rest" with Jesus.

2 THES. 1 [7] And to you who are troubled REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The “many” say we need not keep Gods sabbath day because we are now resting in Jesus. As you can plainly read our rest with Jesus has not yet begun. According to above scripture its when he returns.


ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP before me, saith the Lord. [24] And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Seems that even during the 1000 yr period of rest his people will still be keeping the sabbath. Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever!

PSALMS 132 [8] Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.[9] Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.[10] For thy servant David's sake turn not away the face of thine anointed.[11] The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.[12] if thy children will KEEP MY COVENANT AND MY TESTIMONY that i shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.[13] For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.[14] This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Arise into thy rest, this is my rest for ever. And the children of God will also enter this rest IF they keep his covenant (law) and his testimony (of Jesus). Not one or the other as “many” who have come in his name profess. I dont think the “many” can explain away whats written in Psalm 132.

ISAIAH 14 [3] And IT SHALL COME TO PASS in the day that THE LORD SHALL GIVE THEE REST from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, [4] That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! [5] The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. [6] He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. [7] THE WHOLE EARTH IS AT REST, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

The bottom line is... believe the scriptures over what youve been taught by your denomination. It shall come to pass in that day (verse 3) the LORD shall give thee rest. Verse 7 says at that time the whole world is at rest. All the bad guys will be gone. 2Thes.1 tells us why. Theres gonna be a fire! The whole world is not at rest at this point in time.

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 03:30 PM
Hi Shane!

I read the link and sorry, but I just don't see what you obviously see. I thought the author was continually taking scripture out of context to make their point. I'd like to just point one thing out that I thought was completely out of context.

Galatians 4:10-11
10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

The author seems to think that Paul was speaking here of observing the Sabbath. Yet, how about those who observe Christmas or easter. :rolleyes: But was Paul speaking about the Sabbath or the Passover or the other Feasts that God calls His own? Or was he referring to something else entirely? Let's look at the verses BEFORE.


Hello S2S
Heres what i have found concerning this scripture

GAL.4 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

DEUT.18 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Seems to be speakin of those who use horoscopes? Witches and the such

2 CHR.33 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

Anyways, nothing to do away with Gods sabbath day. Seems to have something to do with the occult.

LEV.19 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths.

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 03:50 PM
Jesus never did tell Jew or Gentile to keep the Sabbath day (the Law is Spiritual since we have The Holy Spirit now).

Hi Jesus-is-real

ROMANS 7 [14] For we know that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

ROMANS 15 [25] But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.[26] For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.[27] It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. FOR IF THE GENTILES HAVE BEEN MADE PARTAKERS OF THEIR SPIRITUAL THINGS, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Both scriptures givin by Paul. He knew what he said. We (gentiles) are made partakers of the law. Paul goes on to explain that we gentiles are to keep this law in newness of the spirit and not oldness of the letter

MATTHEW 5 [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. [21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, THOU SHALT NOT KILL; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT WHOSOEVER IS ANGRY WITH HIS BROTHER WITHOUT A CAUSE SHALL BE IN DANGER OF THE JUDGMENT: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not kill
NEW SPIRIT- Don’t even get angry. Call no man a fool. Love one another in thought, word and deed.

MATTHEW 5 [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But i say unto you, that WHOSOEVER LOOKETH ON A WOMAN TO LUST AFTER HER HATH COMMITTED ADULTERY with her already in his heart.

OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not commit adultery
NEW SPIRIT- Do not look on a woman to lust. Keep the law in our mind and spirit. Even in our eyes.

So you can see that Jesus did not do away with the letter of the law. Common sense will tell ya in order to walk in the spirit of the law you must also be walking in the letter. Jesus made the commandments even harder to keep and more honorable.

ISAIAH 42 [20] Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.[21] The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; HE WILL MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honourable.

Yes, Jesus magnified the law. He took the letter of the law (which leads to death) and magnified the law to a spiritual level (which leads to life).

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 04:32 PM
When you walk in Love toward God and others the Righteousness of the law is filfilled in you,

Yes Jesus-is-Real, we are to love one another. How are we to do that? All the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures below tell us how we are to love one another (our neighbor). And there all quite clear! Keep the 10 commandments and you will be walking in the “love" mentioned in the new testament.

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Kinda hard to do a song and dance around those scriptures

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, Thou shalt not bear false witness, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because there will be some out there that will try and tell you the “commandments” mentioned are not the 10 commandments. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. There will also be some out there that will tell you since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored.

JOHN 15 [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.[10] IF YE KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS, AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 04:51 PM
I was looking at of 492 denominations that are, or have begun to observe the Sabbath (Saturday). Last I read, there are over 500 now. Either we are moving forward by going home, or we are moving backward by leaving home ;)

Were goin home Clifton. Back to the mountain.


MATT.15 [22] And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.[23] But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.[24] But he answered and said, I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.

Jesus said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"

JEREMIAH 50 [4] IN THOSE DAYS, and in that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the Lord their God. [5] They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten. [6] MY PEOPLE HATH BEEN LOST SHEEP: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: THEY HAVE GONE FROM MOUNTAIN TO HILL, THEY HAVE FORGOTTEN THEIR RESTINGPLACE.

Lost sheep go from the mountain to the hill. Why? They forgot their resting place. The sabbath?

ISAIAH 2 [2] And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS, that the mountain of THE LORD'S HOUSE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED IN THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAINS, AND SHALL BE EXALTED ABOVE THE HILLS; and all nations shall flow unto it. [3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of zion shall go forth the law, and THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM.

Look what happens in the last days. Its back to the mountain

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 06:07 PM
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.).

Many who read above scripture will claim we need not keep the 10 commandments because we walk in liberty from them. Scripture does not say that.

JAMES 2 [10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.[12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be JUDGED BY THE LAW OF LIBERTY

Do not commit adultry, do not kill (the 10 commandments) and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. Keep ALL 10. Ya practice to break one, your guilty of all {verse 10}. You are a transgressor.

JAMES 1 [22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:[24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.[25] But whoso looketh into THE PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY, and continueth therein, he being NOT A FORGETFUL HEARER, BUT A DOER OF THE WORK, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

ROMANS 2 [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST before God, but THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

The perfect law of liberty. Blessed be the man that be a doer of the work. Work??? Bad word for some.

PSALM 119 [42] So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.[43] And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.[44] So shall I KEEP THY LAW continually for ever and ever.[45] And I WILL WALK AT LIBERTY: for I seek thy precepts.[46] I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.[47] And I WILL DELIGHT MYSELF IN THY COMMANDMENTS, which I have loved.

So shall I keep thy law continually AND delight myself in thy commandments and WILL WALK AT LIBERTY. That cant be misinterpreted

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 06:10 PM
Were goin home Clifton. Back to the mountain.


MATT.15 [22] And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.[23] But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.[24] But he answered and said, I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.

Jesus said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"

JEREMIAH 50 [4] IN THOSE DAYS, and in that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the Lord their God. [5] They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten. [6] MY PEOPLE HATH BEEN LOST SHEEP: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: THEY HAVE GONE FROM MOUNTAIN TO HILL, THEY HAVE FORGOTTEN THEIR RESTINGPLACE.

Lost sheep go from the mountain to the hill. Why? They forgot their resting place. The sabbath?

ISAIAH 2 [2] And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS, that the mountain of THE LORD'S HOUSE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED IN THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAINS, AND SHALL BE EXALTED ABOVE THE HILLS; and all nations shall flow unto it. [3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of zion shall go forth the law, and THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM.

Look what happens in the last days. Its back to the mountain

The above stuff can be found in other scriptures

MATT.15 [22] And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.[23] But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.[24] But he answered and said, I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.

Jesus said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"

JER.50 [4] In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.[5] They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in A PERPETUAL COVENANT that shall not be forgotten.[6] MY PEOPLE HATH BEEN LOST SHEEP: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, THEY HAVE FORGOTTEN THEIR RESTINGPLACE.

My people hath been lost sheep
they have forgotten their restingplace (they sure have)
let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten (remember the…)

Well, In Jeremiah we can find the sheep that Jesus came for. The remnant of the lost 10 tribes of the children of Israel, who believe they are nothing more than gentiles. Have the many been decieved, just as the new testament says. The sabbath rest has been forgotten, but as you can see, the lost sheep that Jesus came for will return to the “perpetual covenant” and keep Gods sabbath day. In Jer.50 you find the words “they have forgotten their restingplace” and the 4th commandment begins with “remember the sabbath”.

EXODUS 31[15] Six days may work be done; but in THE SEVENTH IS THE SABBATH of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT.[17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

This is really great. If you have a KJV bible you will find the words “PERPETUAL COVENANT” only in these 2 scriptures. Jer. 50 and Exodus 31. Exodus 31 speaks of the sabbath as a “perpetual covenant” and Jer.50 speaks of that “perpetual covenant” being forgotten by His people.

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 06:13 PM
We Christians were actually givin many warnings about the bad guys and what they would do. The warnings are all around the new testament.

1 PETER 5 [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a ROARING LION, walketh about, SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR:

Watch out for these roaring lions!

MATT.7 [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[15]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are RAVENING WOLVES.

Beware of false these prophets. They are RAVENING WOLVES. Also implied here is that “the many” will follow these false prophets and but a few will take the way of life. Thats exactly what has happened

ACTS 20 [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous WOLVES ENTER IN among you, not sparing the flock.[30]Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES after them.

The GRIEVOUS WOLVES were there from the beginning

EPH.4 [17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth WALK NOT AS OTHER GENTILES walk, in the VANITYof their mind,[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness oftheir heart:[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over untolasciviousness, to work all UNCLEANNESS with GREEDINESS.

Well, I found all these warnings from the newtestament in one scripture. The Day of the Lord scriptures are so great. Since “that day” has not yet arrived no one can claim that the scripture is for ancient Israel and does not apply to christians. Day of the Lord scriptures do apply to christians(those who believe that Jesus came) and these scriptures will come to pass. To see what these ROARING LIONS and RAVENOUS WOLVES have done, simply read and believe the Word.

EZEK.22 [23] And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,[24] Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.[25] There is A CONSPIRACY OF HER PROPHETS in the midst thereof, like a ROARING LION ravening the prey; THEY HAVE DEVOURED SOULS; they have taken the treasure and precious things; theyhave made her many widows in the midst thereof.[26] HER PRIESTS HAVE VIOLATED MY LAW, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the UNCLEAN AND THE CLEAN, and HAVE HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS, and I am profaned among them.[27] Her princes in the midst thereof are like WOLVES RAVENING THE PREY, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get DISHONEST GAIN.[28] And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, SEEING VANITY, and divininglies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken

A conspiracy of the prophets. HID THEIR EYESFROM MY SABBATHS! They meant to do it and they sure did pull it off despite thewarnings. he's a tricky little devil

Wall
Apr 14th 2012, 06:23 PM
I believe the apostles, answered this question after the gentiles received salvation, when men from Judea went to the gentiles and told them they had to be circumcised to be saved, Paul and Barnabas strongly opposed them because they taught that salvation was through Jesus, because they knew no man could be saved by obeying the law. Acts 15


ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 15 as a whole was speaking as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcized or not. Nothing to do with the 10 commandments.So lets look into what pollution of idols {V 20} is all about. What I found was very as always, when you let scripture interpret scripture

LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, NOR MAKE TO YOURSELVES MOLTEN GODS: I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS NOR GRAVEN IMAGE, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.

I don’t know what the connection might be as to why graven images and idols are a sign that you don’t keep Gods sabbath but if the WORD says so I believe it. I know the churches that do keep the sabbath don’t have any standing images or crosses. Well, least the ones I know. Also, the guys and gals that go to these churches dont wear molten gods about their necks.

pilgrim77
Apr 15th 2012, 07:25 PM
he dead
There is a contradiction i am having a problem with " the Law " should i be keeping the 10 commandments ? some say Jesus done away with the law and we no longer have to be strict in obedience to it, some say it's just a guide on how to be a good person and please the Lord. But the Lord said he did not come to abolish the he came to fulfill the law, so should we therefore keep the law as the Jews the believe in Jesus do ? If so how can i keep the sabbath holy if all the churchs congregate on sunday since the catholic church brought it in. The only church that i am aware of that keeps the sabbath is the seventh day adventist church but i do not want to go there as i do not believe some of what they teach, i find it hard to even find a church that is true to the word am talking about preachers like paul washer and alike ! i like there message but no one seems to be doing it. Any way I try to keep the ten commandments but the sabbath is a puzzler to me and help is needed !!!! thanks

"For the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Some people misinterpret what Paul said about us being no longer under the law as a contradiction of what Jesus said about Himself not coming to abolish the law but to fulfill it. There is not a contradiction at all. When Jesus said He came to fulfill the law He was actually saying He came to finalize it, wrap it up, finish it and end it.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one who believes."

In old testament times the priests and levites in the temple had to keep coming back year after year to offer up the blood of bulls and goats and sheep on the altar for the sins of the people.

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of those things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers therunto perfect. but in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."

So Jesus came and offered up Himself once and for all for the sins of the wpople. So that we don't have to keep the law in order to be justified and forgiven for our sins. We just have to believe in Jesus. That's what Paul was talking about when he said that Christ was the "end of the law."

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body ofJesus Christ once and for all.But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God. From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool. For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Jesus makes us perfect by cleansing us from all our sins if we only believe in Him. That's why Paul says we are "freely justified by His grace. We cannot and are not justified by keeping the laws of Moses. We can only be justified by believing in Jesus. Righteousness is automatically imputed upon us by Faith.

So this doesn't mean that it is now ok to commit murder, covet our neighbors wife, or possessions, or disobey any of the spritual laws God gave us. But it does mean that we are all imperfect human beings who are all sinners (For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God) and that the only way we can be saved and justified is by recieving forgivness for our sins by believing in Jesus, Not by keeping or obeying the law. Keeping the law does not justify you or help you make it to heaven, and disobeying the law does not ensure your place in Hell. The only thing that justifies you and takes you to heaven is believeing in Jesus, and the only thing that sends you to hell is rejection of Jesus.

The commandment that the Lord gave us that replaces the old testament, what Jesus Himself called the new testament of His blood, is to love one another. As far as keeping the Sabbath is concerned It was first introduced by God as a day of rest, since God had rested the seventh day,after He created the world. It's still good to take a day of rest, but since we are not under the legalism of the law anymore, we don't necessarily have to have our day of rest on the 7th day, Saturday. It could be Sunday or Friday or any other day of the week. No Christians are being disobedient to God just because they chose Sunday as a day of rest instead of Saturday. Personnally I think Sunday is a good day to "keep holy the Lord's day" because the most important part of our beliefs is the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and the resurrection took place on the first day of the week.

John 8:32
Apr 16th 2012, 12:44 PM
he dead

"For the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Some people misinterpret what Paul said about us being no longer under the law as a contradiction of what Jesus said about Himself not coming to abolish the law but to fulfill it. There is not a contradiction at all. When Jesus said He came to fulfill the law He was actually saying He came to finalize it, wrap it up, finish it and end it.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one who believes."

In old testament times the priests and levites in the temple had to keep coming back year after year to offer up the blood of bulls and goats and sheep on the altar for the sins of the people.

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of those things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers therunto perfect. but in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."

So Jesus came and offered up Himself once and for all for the sins of the wpople. So that we don't have to keep the law in order to be justified and forgiven for our sins. We just have to believe in Jesus. That's what Paul was talking about when he said that Christ was the "end of the law."

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body ofJesus Christ once and for all.But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God. From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool. For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Jesus makes us perfect by cleansing us from all our sins if we only believe in Him. That's why Paul says we are "freely justified by His grace. We cannot and are not justified by keeping the laws of Moses. We can only be justified by believing in Jesus. Righteousness is automatically imputed upon us by Faith.

So this doesn't mean that it is now ok to commit murder, covet our neighbors wife, or possessions, or disobey any of the spritual laws God gave us. But it does mean that we are all imperfect human beings who are all sinners (For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God) and that the only way we can be saved and justified is by recieving forgivness for our sins by believing in Jesus, Not by keeping or obeying the law. Keeping the law does not justify you or help you make it to heaven, and disobeying the law does not ensure your place in Hell. The only thing that justifies you and takes you to heaven is believeing in Jesus, and the only thing that sends you to hell is rejection of Jesus.

The commandment that the Lord gave us that replaces the old testament, what Jesus Himself called the new testament of His blood, is to love one another. As far as keeping the Sabbath is concerned It was first introduced by God as a day of rest, since God had rested the seventh day,after He created the world. It's still good to take a day of rest, but since we are not under the legalism of the law anymore, we don't necessarily have to have our day of rest on the 7th day, Saturday. It could be Sunday or Friday or any other day of the week. No Christians are being disobedient to God just because they chose Sunday as a day of rest instead of Saturday. Personnally I think Sunday is a good day to "keep holy the Lord's day" because the most important part of our beliefs is the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and the resurrection took place on the first day of the week.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What was added?

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

The Ten Commandments were God's law...

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

Now what did Moses give? The Law of Moses, inspired by God, but not the Law of God for all time...

Deu 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

The Temple regulations, the statutes and ordinances that Israel was to govern by and the sacrificial laws. God did not give the sacrificial laws on Mt Sinai...

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

The book of Hebrews makes it pretty plain that the laws that were changed were the sacrificial laws and the Priesthood, from a Levitical, Aaronical Priesthood to the Priesthood of Melchisidec. Once Christ became the sacrifice for man, the animal sacrifices were no longer necessary to point to Him. Right about now would be a good time to apply...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The sacrificial laws were were a shadow of what Christ accomplished with His death, burial and resurrection.

Paul, himself, says the law was not ended...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Word here for end is...

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Because...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

What was Christ's example? Did He break the law?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Paul agrees...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.