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Adam168
Dec 29th 2007, 07:37 PM
Sorry if this is on the wrong board. How is abortion NOT murder? Murder by definition is the intent to kill. Any woman who has an abortion is intentionally(sp?) killing her baby. So how is that NOT murder?

amazzin
Dec 29th 2007, 07:40 PM
Sorry if this is on the wrong board. How is abortion NOT murder? Murder by definition is the intent to kill. Any woman who has an abortion is intentionally(sp?) killing her baby. So how is that NOT murder?

It a conscious, deliberate, thought out process of ending a life. Life starts at conception. It is ordered of God and it is a miracle. Yes it is murder and there is no way one can use scripture to prove it is not.

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 07:47 PM
Sorry if this is on the wrong board. How is abortion NOT murder? Murder by definition is the intent to kill. Any woman who has an abortion is intentionally(sp?) killing her baby. So how is that NOT murder?
It IS murder. :cry:

Adam168
Dec 29th 2007, 07:59 PM
Then why in the world is it legal in this country??! I just don't get that.

amazzin
Dec 29th 2007, 08:04 PM
Then why in the world is it legal in this country??! I just don't get that.

Sign of the times that jesus referred to. BUT the Good news is that we are here on this earth to be a light and to be salt. That means we continuew to speak against this sin and preserve whatever morality we have left. Did you notice that the more we speak of it as a sin the more the tide turns against it?

Will it ever be reversed in the courts? Probably not so our mission is towards those women who are confused and are seeking abortions.

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 08:20 PM
Then why in the world is it legal in this country??! I just don't get that.
There are alot of things that shouldn't be legal in this country but we do live in a fallen world. We as believer's need to seek Him in everything we do and try to help make the world a better place and most importantly... pray. :pray:

ddmor
Dec 29th 2007, 08:33 PM
Then why in the world is it legal in this country??! I just don't get that.

I agree that it's the sign of the times. People really believe that it's evil to bring babies into this world that aren't planned and wanted. They believe it's evil to make teenagers carry babies to term. They believe it's evil to bring into this world babies that are deformed or disabled in some way.

You know what the Bible says?

ISA 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Francine
Dec 29th 2007, 09:26 PM
Then why in the world is it legal in this country??! I just don't get that.

Gosh! Probably because we don't want to see the product of father-daughter incest. Or maybe because we don't force women to carry a fetus to full term if we know it's going to kill them to do so.

amazzin
Dec 29th 2007, 09:30 PM
Gosh! Probably because we don't want to see the product of father-daughter incest. Or maybe because we don't force women to carry a fetus to full term if we know it's going to kill them to do so.

That is no reason to kill an unborn.

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 09:33 PM
[quote=Francine;1483461]Gosh! Probably because we don't want to see the product of father-daughter incest.
Definately a good reason to kill an innocent baby. :o


Or maybe because we don't force women to carry a fetus to full term if we know it's going to kill them to do so.
How often do you think that's the case? Do you know of any?

Adam168
Dec 29th 2007, 09:50 PM
Francine, if the mother's life is in jeopardy then yes, I do think it's ok. Other than that, there's no good reason. Abortion is clearly murder.

amazzin
Dec 29th 2007, 09:55 PM
Francine, if the mother's life is in jeopardy then yes, I do think it's ok. Other than that, there's no good reason. Abortion is clearly murder.

Adam....WRONG

God is always in control. I would not be here if my mom did not leave my life in God's hands. She was hemmoraging perfusely while giving me birth. The doctor told both my mom and my dad to choose. They both refused and had my parents chosen my mom she would be dead. But God intervened in an absolutely miraculous way and we are both alive today.

Adam168
Dec 29th 2007, 10:00 PM
Amazzin, sorry but I'm not wrong. Going by that way of thinking, when we get sick we shouldn't take medicine bc the whole thing is "in God's hands." If the mother might die, it IS ok.

amazzin
Dec 29th 2007, 10:03 PM
Amazzin, sorry but I'm not wrong. Going by that way of thinking, when we get sick we shouldn't take medicine bc the whole thing is "in God's hands." If the mother might die, it IS ok.

What do medicines have to do with a spiritul law of life and death whom God is the author of both. If you do not agree with that then you have some serching and I would gladly help you see that God is the author of Life and of death.

There is no excuse olr justification for abortion,......PERIOD

Adam168
Dec 29th 2007, 10:05 PM
Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. You would gamble with the woman's life while I would not.

amazzin
Dec 29th 2007, 10:08 PM
Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. You would gamble with the woman's life while I would not.

It's not gambling,...it obedience to His Word Adam. You don't gamble with His word because the outcome has already been determined.

Even Christ died for you and I and He did not chose not to die because he wanted to live!

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 10:08 PM
Amazzin, sorry but I'm not wrong. Going by that way of thinking, when we get sick we shouldn't take medicine bc the whole thing is "in God's hands." If the mother might die, it IS ok.
Do you believe that abortion is murder or not?

Adam168
Dec 29th 2007, 10:11 PM
Amazzin, it IS gambling and if you don't see that then nothing I can say will change your mind.

Diffangle, abortion IS murder unless the abortion takes place bc the woman's life is in jeopardy. I will NOT gamble with a woman's life. I will NOT.

amazzin
Dec 29th 2007, 10:13 PM
Amazzin, it IS gambling and if you don't see that then nothing I can say will change your mind.

Diffangle, abortion IS murder unless the abortion takes place bc the woman's life is in jeopardy. I will NOT gamble with a woman's life. I will NOT.

Then this discussion is closed since you've got your answers now and it is obvious you don't want to see it as a sin.

Agreed?

Adam168
Dec 29th 2007, 10:15 PM
Amazzin, you're clearly not listening. I have VERY clearly stated that it's murder and sin. VERY clearly. However if a woman's life is in danger then it's NOT murder or a sin. The sin is GAMBLING WITH A WOMAN'S LIFE. If you or anyone else here doesn't see that then that's just sad.

amazzin
Dec 29th 2007, 10:19 PM
Amazzin, you're clearly not listening. I have VERY clearly stated that it's murder and sin. VERY clearly. However if a woman's life is in danger then it's NOT murder or a sin. The sin is GAMBLING WITH A WOMAN'S LIFE. If you or anyone else here doesn't see that then that's just sad.

Adam you can't have both. It's one or the other.....and I am listening or I wouldn't be here in this thread okay?

Adam168
Dec 29th 2007, 10:21 PM
No it's not one way or the other. But you see it 1 way and I see it another. I'm not going to get into an endless arguement about it so this will be my last post on the subject.

diffangle
Dec 29th 2007, 10:38 PM
Diffangle, abortion IS murder unless the abortion takes place bc the woman's life is in jeopardy. I will NOT gamble with a woman's life. I will NOT.
How is the mother's life any more valuable than the babies life? Does the possible threat to the mother's life all the sudden make the baby non-human and okay to murder?

Amazedgrace21
Dec 29th 2007, 10:41 PM
What do medicines have to do with a spiritul law of life and death whom God is the author of both. If you do not agree with that then you have some serching and I would gladly help you see that God is the author of Life and of death.

There is no excuse olr justification for abortion,......PERIOD

Sadly Amazzin not everyone , and most do not have the faith needed to take this step in terms of what your parent's did, and how precious that they did and God was so faithful in terms of protecting both your mother and you.I have seen it with folks who did not have the blessing of that outcome and they too are profound testimonies for their willingness to trust God.

Yet at the same time there are circumstances it is never about a lack of faith when it comes to having to make choices that are very difficult. I would think God would be very gracious and understanding if there was a medical reason where the mother's life was at risk and it came down to the child's life or hers, it would not be wrong to intervene on behalf of the mother..especially if there were other children at home..nor would I ever call such a choice "murder" of an innocent or equate that with abortion on any level.That is not our place to judge such things IMHO.:hug:

The world can not justify abortion, abortion clinics are industry for profit..a money making machine that presents itself as anything but..people simply rationalize this away because they do not call a child , 'a child', it's just a "fetus", a non-entity..

it's so heartbreaking..and many women often never receive the counseling or information they need..the support of others to help them with realizing this. Many come to see this down the road and bear such tremendous guilt and shame because as Christ said of us all.."we truly do not know what we do!"

Is there any excuse for such things?? Of course there are ..but that's all they are..excuses..:cry:

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 29th 2007, 11:26 PM
If my daughter (I don't actually have one, but, yanno, theoretically) had been raped and did not want to go through the ordeals of pregnancy and childbirth on top of all she had already faced, I would not force her to on the grounds that it's a sin to kill the foetus. This should be the only circumstance when a Christian should have to make the choice - unplanned pregnancies are irresponsible, there are many responsible ways to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.

If unforseen health problems should arise leaving the mother's survival in question, it remains a sin to kill the foetus, but of course - should she choose to do so, I would not judge her. I would assume that she would not need me to tell her that it was a sin, and as such would be asking forgiveness anyway, but regardless - it is not for us to judge.

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 29th 2007, 11:30 PM
The world can not justify abortion, abortion clinics are industry for profit..a money making machine that presents itself as anything but.

I'm sorry - that's wrong. Abortions were still commonplace when they were illegal, and backstreet abortions were truly agonising and left the mother unlikely to survive. Many people who work in abortion clinics are persecuted horrendously, when they work there through a genuine wish to help women who have made mistakes and see the potential for their lives disappearing.

dljc
Dec 29th 2007, 11:41 PM
Amazzin, you're clearly not listening. I have VERY clearly stated that it's murder and sin. VERY clearly. However if a woman's life is in danger then it's NOT murder or a sin. The sin is GAMBLING WITH A WOMAN'S LIFE. If you or anyone else here doesn't see that then that's just sad.Let me ask you this Adam. Who are you to say that God wasn't calling this woman home? In other words, which is more important your will or God's Will?

Amazedgrace21
Dec 30th 2007, 01:22 AM
Abortions were still commonplace when they were illegal, and backstreet abortions were truly agonising and left the mother unlikely to survive. Many people who work in abortion clinics are persecuted horrendously, when they work there through a genuine wish to help women who have made mistakes and see the potential for their lives disappearing.

Respectfully, I recognize the appeal for compassion here on behalf of some very challanging circumstances that often are raised, but my own personal conviciton leads me to take some things under consideration that simply don't find approaching this from a gender issue is the right position.

Jesus would not discuss the topic in terms of rights — the right to life vs. the right to choose abortion.

1. Abortion is a Life Issue.
2. Abortion is a Moral Issue.
3. Abortion is a Spiritual Issue.


While rights are very important in certain circumstances, Jesus repeatedly taught that we should learn to voluntarily give up our rights for the good of others. Instead, Jesus would approach the topic of abortion within the framework of virtue and duty.

From what we can glean from Jesus' teachings, His lead question would not be "When considering abortion, what are a woman's rights?" Rather, it would be "When considering abortion, what would a virtuous woman of character who cares about others and her duty to their well-being do?" The answer to the second question is pretty obvious: You don't kill them.

Setting aside our relationship to Adam's sin, it is clear that in all other cases, we shall be rewarded or punished for our own and only our own actions. I should not be judged for the choices, beliefs or deeds of another.As a christian woman and mother of a daughter I chose to abide by what I understand as God's will in these matters for "my choices" and advocating the life of an unborn child.

Applied to abortion, while rape is a grotesque evil, two wrongs do not make a right. It is wrong to kill the innocent unborn child for something he or she did not do. Indeed, doing the right thing in a sacrificial pregnancy in such cases can be an essential part of the emotional and spiritual healing from such a traumatic evil. And Jesus' teaching about the second greatest commandment of loving others as ourselves also applies to the innocent unborn child.

I also abide by embracing death to save others and martyrdom should not be morally required of people. Rather, they should be chosen (if at all) voluntarily. Jesus repeatedly said that His sacrificial death was something He did voluntarily. So if a mother's life is genuinely in danger due to her pregnancy, she may voluntarily risk, even lose her life for her child, but she should not be required to do so.

To not do so is not "murder" nor are we the one's to dictate what God's will is in the choice that is made regarding who should survive..in this very rare set of circumstances, which again is not about abortion at all..there is no "intnent" present to kill the unborn child any more than to "kill" the mother..the death of either would be the tragic result of the attempt to try to save a life of the other.


Abortion Clinics are indeed an industry and profit organization..abortion as a practice is no longer and far from it's original justification, as one whose sole obligation is to "help women" at all..were that the case..and were the laws such that it was a practice limited to even the most restrictive, narrow and rarest of situations of rape, this is a proceedure that could be done in a hospital just as a delivery, or any other proceedure. Abortion has turned into another form of birth control and makes a profit from legalized murder.

We are not living in the "old days" where there are not options available to avoid pregnancy if one want's to press that reasoning as yet another excuse for legalized abortion opposed to abortion mills...the sheer numbers of abortions performed annually is an indictment against this evil industry IMHO.

A woman, as a human being has the same rights "to get pregnant" as we do the "right" to not get pregnant or require an abortion, what we do with these rights for our bodies is "our responsibility and choice"..an unborn human being has the same rights..abortion clinics do not operate advocating the rights of the child or a women, they advocate women not taking responsibility for their bodies IMHO and deprive other human beings of their's to promote this lie.

The problem is why so many women are getting pregnant and requiring abortions in the first place.I'm very aware of the statistics and numbers in respect to the demographics of who is getting them..rape and physical danger to the health of a woman are the very rarest of reasons for this practice.:cry:

diffangle
Dec 30th 2007, 03:41 AM
Let me ask you this Adam. Who are you to say that God wasn't calling this woman home? In other words, which is more important your will or God's Will?
Good questions.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 30th 2007, 05:57 AM
Abortion IS murder, plain and simple.

As far as the argument about the woman's life being at stake...I can tell you that, from the perspective of a woman and a mother, most mothers WOULD die for their children, even in labor. I couldn't IMAGINE having an abortion for ANY reason, even that of saving my own life.

That having been said, if a woman's life is at stake, and she INSISTED on having an abortion, I wouldn't condemn her for it....BUT, I would have her pray about it. The way I see it, God is the only one Who is authorized to call ANYONE home, and I'm NOT just referring to the mother.

What if, for some reason, God is calling the unborn child home? The truth is, none of us know. The instances of the mother's life being at stake are SO RARE, though, that I think the scenario is largely hypothetical.

As far as rape is concerned....I'm sorry, but even as a woman, I consider abortion wrong in this circumstance. There is NO WAY I could EVER have an abortion and live with myself...even in this case. YES, the rape was a grievous sin, but killing an innocent baby will NOT right this wrong.

Someone mentioned abortion clinics, and I agree with the person that said that their primary motive is monetary. What they do is play on a woman's fears in order to generate $$$ from abortions.
What I find particularly disturbing about these clinics is that, in counseling these women, they fail to point out the negative effects of abortion...the physical damage that abortion causes, as well as the intense psychological damage. They convince these women that abortion is an easy way out, while neglecting to tell them the kind of damages that the procedure can cause.
Not only that, but they DO NOT inform them about exactly WHAT HAPPENS to the fetus during an abortion.
I've seen pictures of aborted fetuses, and it is GRUESOME...and I can guarantee, if many of the girls saw those same pictures, they would have second thoughts.

IMO, there is only ONE VALID and justifiable reason for abortion, and that is terminal selection (if the mother has taken fertility drugs, and so many babies have developed in her womb, that if some are not terminated, all of them will die), and I say this only because I feel that if a woman refuses to take action, and her babies end up dying, she has committed murder by neglect. Even in this instance, though, prayerful consideration IS required.

Lefty
Dec 30th 2007, 06:33 AM
I don't know, so I'm just asking here;

When are most abortions performed? Is within a month of conception right?

If that's so then we're talking about an embryo, which is a collection of cells barely visible to the naked eye, no limbs, no heart, no nervous system to sense or feel, no brain to think. God creates organs for those purposes and this has none yet.

So, are we to equate ending this "life" to that of a man shooting a cashier in a liquor store hold-up by terming it "murder?" and putting even more grief a woman? I'm hesitant to do that, but am open to changing my view.

sjorgens
Dec 30th 2007, 07:34 AM
My wifes Grandparents wanted my mother-in-law to get an abortion because she was so young when my wife was concieved. We have 3 beautiful children together.

Thankyou Lord!
Dan

Amazedgrace21
Dec 30th 2007, 08:16 AM
Hi Lefty,

I can offer why I abide by the beliefs I do and what scripture I base this upon for you to reflect upon to better understand why I do, if this would help respond to some of your concerns.

All life belongs to God alone as I abide by Him being the creator of life and has made it very clear the value He put's upon it.

A blob of tissue does not have an identity ..but a person does, and for this reason I do believe an embryo is not merely a "blob of tissue". Nor is our mortal life eternal but the plan for our life, each life, has an eternal plan.

Psalm 139, David wrote...

"My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. I was woven (knit) together in the depths of the earth,your eyes saw my unformed body.All the days ordained for me were writen in your book ( the Book of Life) before they came to be."

Jeremiah 1, God says..

"The Word of the Lord came to me saying, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, before you were born, I set you apart.I appointed you as prophet to the nations"

IMHO, this clearly is God's view of each individual life .. as having beginning of personhood.. before it was ever formed in the womb...the plan's God has for each of is an eternal one..and life exists before we even take a breath outside the womb.

God is the giver of life and is the one who opens up a womb for a "person" to be formed in this womb. That 'blob of tissue' is a life..it is a person..it has a soul, and it was formed by God for a purpose.God not only creates life but He alone allows birth..

Issaiah 66:9, God says..

"Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery says the Lord.Do I not close the womb when I bring to delivery, says your God"

So on every any level one attempts to argue that someone else other than God may dictate anything else but these things to be true is simply inconceivable to me when it comes to the attempts to rationalize abortion as a "human right" at all. There is never a right to chose 'murder' and by definition that is explicitly what abortion is..

Its denying God who is the creator of life has jursisdiction over the life of an unborn "person"..it's denyiny that terminating this life is not murder and its in effect saying that the womb dictates what is life and that human beings who chose to seek abortion on demand are not murderers so long as they disregard God's authority over that life.

A "person" created by God , formed in the womb by God, the very God who formed the womb, openned the womb for that life to be formed, and opens the womb for thatlife to be born then closes the womb after it is..seems to me IMHO. to be the one who makes these call's..no one else

Less than 1.5 % of preganacies terminated due to medical reasons or reasons such as rape or even selective termination that Cloudburst cited account for the statisitcs of what are "excuses" for the sinful consequences of ignoring God's plans an purposes for sex within the boundries of marraige and basically what God calls "human beings" from the moment He conceived of them and his plans for them..

What's ironic here is these innocent children..little human beings are perceived as the sin of inconviences as a result of one sin in most cases and for the sake of convience are being aborted..their lives terminated by being murdered and it is "murder" that is the sin. Abortion is the sin of convience to avoid the consequences of other sins to put it bluntly!

God equates these embryo's as lives with all lives because these embryo's are human beings..and its murder regardless if a life is terminated inside or outside the womb at any time by any one "but Him" to remedy one sin because murder is murder at all times. These babies being aborted are not inconviences..they are miracles and a "heritage' that is God given.

This it what breaks my heart here..that we live in a world where a human life is disregarded for the miracle it is. A world where medical technology has risen to such a level a fetus is determined to be viable and able to be saved by this technology and can be saved at 19.5 weeks and brought to full term is also the same world that would move heaven and earth to save an animal from being destroyed or a tree from being cut down..yet looks at a human being as nothing more than a "blob of tissue" and an inconvience that requires abortion as a convienent form of 'birth control' to solve the grief of the inconvience. :cry:

For me, I guess it comes down to what grieves God first over what is an inconvience to anyone else when it comes down to these defenseless human beings.. no matter what they are called by anyone else while in the womb of a woman..:hug:

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 30th 2007, 10:18 AM
Hmm.. I hadn't really considered it before, but God certainly considers all these things equal. Taking a life, whether you're a sadistic serial killer, a woman who's been raped removing a handful of cells, or a man on a battlefield following orders - it's still taking a life, overruling His sole authority over life and death. But that said, I find it hard not to make the distinction... It's pretty obvious that I'm wrong, though, so maybe I should change my view on abortion and war.

Revinius
Dec 30th 2007, 12:13 PM
I don't know, so I'm just asking here;

When are most abortions performed? Is within a month of conception right?

If that's so then we're talking about an embryo, which is a collection of cells barely visible to the naked eye, no limbs, no heart, no nervous system to sense or feel, no brain to think. God creates organs for those purposes and this has none yet.

So, are we to equate ending this "life" to that of a man shooting a cashier in a liquor store hold-up by terming it "murder?" and putting even more grief a woman? I'm hesitant to do that, but am open to changing my view.

Its not so much an argument that it is life its the argument that it has the capacity for life. Will you deny an embrio its God-given right to live? If you sanction its death you are playing God in denying its capacity for life. As Christians we can be judge but not jury and executioner and all judgements should come in line with the word for he is the ultimate judge.

Lefty
Dec 30th 2007, 08:00 PM
My position has been that terminating a pregnancy is sin when the intent is sinful. To willfully stop something that God has clearly started has to be considered wrong simply because his will is made clear when a woman learns she's pregnant, and she (and maybe the man too) willfully acts against that.

A sceptic might argue that a cancer is also "life" or "created in my inmost being" as well, but with the God given knowledge that that cancer will kill, a person is allowed to have it removed. The knowledge that an embryo will come to life as a person does not allow removal and we're accountable for acting on it. Simple.

For this reason, my position has been that with the knowledge that a pregnancy, if allowed to continue, will kill both mother and child, or only the child, she is allowed an abortion. It's God who gave her that knowledge. If only the mother, then I have to step away and leave it to her and God. I wouldn't want that legislated because it's not up to us to decide who's life is worth saving.

I've read the passages in Psalm 139, Jeremiah 1, Isaiah 66:9, but I question whether they should be used to support the idea that all pregnancies are equal and that a potential termination of each should be considered equally sinful. That's not in here. These are all affirmations and praises of God having been the creator of already living persons, not embryos or fetuses affirming that. John the Baptist as a fetus did, but he was 6 months along, and the (gasp) possibility of his being aborted was impossible because he was ordained by God to be conceived and born beforehand.

The point I'm trying to make is that because it's God alone who knows which pregnancies will come to fruition and which will not, isn't it he alone who can judge whether each is "murder" or not? We know when the intention is sinful, but how can we know when it's "murder?"

Isn't this word we use just inflammatory rhetoric meant to strengthen a political arguement? And isn't it better just to call it "sin" and leave it at that?

Amazedgrace21
Dec 30th 2007, 09:51 PM
The point I'm trying to make is that because it's God alone who knows which pregnancies will come to fruition and which will not, isn't it he alone who can judge whether each is "murder" or not? We know when the intention is sinful, but how can we know when it's "murder?"

Isn't this word we use just inflammatory rhetoric meant to strengthen a political arguement? And isn't it better just to call it "sin" and leave it at that?

I 'think' I understand what you are saying here Lefty..I have spoken to circumstances where the word "murder" and abortion can be used in a very inappropriate and inflammatory manner and have attempted to distinguish this, somewhat coherently I hope.:)

Abortion as a proceedure is an intentional act that results with one outcome, and that is the termination of life. It is specifically purposed to intentionally prevent the "fruition" of life to occur. This is an act innitiated by people opposed to the outcome of allowing God to determine the outcome He has purposed.

My concerns again are with abortion as an act of sin..that it defines the nature of what form of sin it is as murder is based upon this being a an act of choice with an intentional purpose. This purpose is prescribed by God himself as to the fact it is called murder..it is not merely 'political rhetoric' it is a violation of one of God's most fundemental moral law's.

Is it merely an idea that life is sacred or is it an eternal truth of God's?

In fact, life was cheap in the ancient world. Abortion and abandonment were commonplace. Infirm or unwanted babies were taken into the forest, or to the mountainside, and left to be consumed by wild animals, starve, or be taken by others for their own perverted ends.

It was the Church that brought an end to abortion, infanticide, and abandonment. Foundling homes, orphanages, and nursery homes were started to house the children. Christians injected the ancient world with the idea that human life is sacred.

Justinian, the sixth century Christian ruler of the Byzantine empire, banned abortion in his famous Justinian Code, which declared that “Those who expose children, possibly hoping they would die, and those who use the potions of the abortionist, are subject to the full penalty of the law—both civil and ecclesiastical—for murder.”

This is not an issue of the quality of life but the sanctity of life IMHO..and if this "inflames" those who do not abide by the truth of the sanctity of life..personaly "my give a dern is busted!"..The cross tends to offend a lot of folks as well..this is a much more grave matter than just two competing 'ethical systems', this about no one being able to serve two Masters and which ethical system serves God IMHO>:hmm:


Malcolm Muggeridge, the brilliant British journalist and satirist who came to Christ late in life, had this to say about the two competing ethics:

“The sanctity of life is, of course, a religious or transcendental concept, and has no meaning otherwise; if there is no God, life cannot have sanctity. By the same token, the quality of life ethic is an earthly or worldly concept, and can only be expressed legalistically and in materialistic terms; the soul does not come into it.”


In going from the sanctity of life to the quality of life, we have gone from theism to atheism, from spiritual to material, from Christian to pagan. And we’ve done it without most Americans ever even knowing it has happened.

The bitter fruit of this return to the ethic of ancient Rome has been the death of more than 52 million children and post-abortive women plagued by the physical, emotional, and psychological consequences of abortion.

As in Rome, it is Christians who are working to restore respect for life by speaking out, pressing for legislation, and personal involvement. This 'slouching towards Sodom and Gomorah' by any standards does call for a great deal of 'rhetoric' as well as action..if this is not the sin of murder when a child's life ( that is what an embryo and a fetus is.. a life)is not ended by God but by a proceedure specifically saught to do this, then what is it? It certainly is not an act of God now is it?:confused

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 30th 2007, 10:22 PM
One point - of course, there are many forms of life; viruses, livestock, whatever - it's only the human life we're discussing here. So if the argument that a foetus isn't a human life holds any weight with someone, I can see how they could feel that it's not murder.
And there certainly is an argument to be made - frogspawn is not a frog, a caterpillar is not a butterfly. It's entirely a judgement call at what point we call it a 'human life', as it would seem ludicrous to suggest that the instant the ovum is fertilised it's a human, and it's similarly ludicrous to suggest that it's not a human life until the moment of birth. Like nigh-on everything, then - it really is a judgment call.
And if we're to say that even the prevention of the forming of a life is similarly murder, then all forms of contraception are murder too. Sorry... But that's just nonsense :D

Amazedgrace21
Dec 30th 2007, 10:47 PM
In order to make a judgement call, it requires some criterias of knowledge to be present in order to to do so.:) I am just very passionate about providing as much accurate and sound info as possible.


French geneticist Jermoe L. LeJeune, while testifying before a Senate Subcommittee, asserted:
To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being from conception to old age is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.







First Month



Pregnancy begins at conception, the time at which the male sperm and the female ovum unite. What results is called a zygote, a one-celled biological entity, a stage in human development through which each of us has passed (just as we have passed through infancy, childhood, and adolescence).


It is a misnomer to refer to this entity as a "fertilized ovum." For both ovum and sperm, which are genetically each a part of its owner (mother and father, respectively), cease to exist at the moment of conception.



There is no doubt that the zygote is biologically alive. It fulfills the four criteria needed to establish biological life: (1) metabolism, (2) growth, (3) reaction to stimuli, and (4) reproduction. (There is cell reproduction and twinning, a form of asexual reproduction, which can occur after conception.)


http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/zygote-human.jpg Human at zygote stage. (From the video Human Life in the beautiful "Wonders of God's Creation" series.) Used by permission.









First, the human conceptus -- that which results from conception and begins as a zygote -- is the sexual product of human parents. Hence, insofar as having human causes, the conceptus is human.


Second, not only is the conceptus human insofar as being caused by humans, it is a unique human individual, just as each of us is. Resulting from the union of the female ovum (which contains 23 chromosomes) and the male sperm (which contains 23 chromosomes), the conceptus is a new -- although tiny -- individual.



It has its own unique genetic code (with forty-six chromosomes), which is neither the mother's nor the father's. From this point until death, no new genetic information is needed to make the unborn entity a unique individual human.





Although sharing the same nature with all human beings, the unborn individual, like each one of us, is unlike any that has been conceived before and unlike any that will ever be conceived again.



The only thing necessary for the growth and development of this human organism (as with the rest of us) is oxygen, food, and water, since this organism -- like the newborn, the infant, and the adolescent -- needs only to develop in accordance with her already-designed nature that is present at conception.



understand that...
You did not come from a zygote.
You once were a zygote. You did not come from an embryo.
You once were an embryo. You did not come from a fetus.
You once were a fetus. You did not come from an adolescent.
You once were an adolescent. Consequently, each one of us has experienced these various developmental stages of life. None of these stages, however, imparted to us our humanity.







At about three weeks, a primitive heart muscle begins to pulsate. Other organs begin to develop during the first month, such as a liver, primitive kidneys, a digestive tract, and a simple umbilical cord. This developing body has a head and a developing face with primitive ears, mouth, and eyes, despite the fact that it is no larger than half the size of a pea.


Toward the end of the first month (between 26 and 28 days) the arms and legs begin to appear as tiny buds. A whole embryo is formed by the end of the first month.


From the eighteenth day after conception, substantial development of the brain and nervous system occurs.
This is necessary because the nervous system integrates the action of all the other systems. By the end of the twentieth day the foundation of the child's brain, spinal cord, and entire nervous system will have been established. By the sixth week, this system will have developed so well that it is controlling movements of the baby's muscles, even though the woman may not be aware she is pregnant. At thirty days the primary brain is seen. By the thirty-third day the cerebral cortex, the part of the central nervous system which governs motor activity as well as intellect, may be seen



http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/q-life000.html






I don't think there is any wiggle room here that we can say the unborn human is less than human and that life is present:hug:



In an important article, Professor John T. Noonan argues that it is reasonable to infer that toward the end of the second month of pregnancy the unborn has the ability to feel pain.



It is crucial to remember that the end of the second month (7 to 8 1/2 weeks) is in the first trimester, a time at which a great majority of abortions are performed and at which the Supreme Court said a state may not prohibit abortions performed by a licensed practitioner.:cry:

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 30th 2007, 11:12 PM
Great post :)

I don't think there is any wiggle room here that we can say the unborn human is less than human and that life is present:hug:
Unfortunately, I'd say there's still room to deny it. Being that a zygote is a stage in the development of a human, the argument that it is not yet a human is there to be made. The quote "None of these stages, however, imparted to us our humanity." is very true, but it is counter intuitive to the point that I can understand those unable to accept it. But on a macro level, there is more or less no difference between the bundle of cells that makes up an embryo and the bundle of cells that makes up you or me.

miepie
Dec 30th 2007, 11:30 PM
God knows that I would have gladly died for my baby......... but I couldn't keep it because it was growing in my tube...... it was either the end of the life of the baby or the end of the life of us both....... it had no survival chances where it was growing and moving it was impossible......... :cry:
God knows I am still mourning.... He gave me a dream where I saw my babygirl laying in a cradle in Heaven, waiting for me to come to her........ and one day I will.......
It was not my choice....... and it took quite a while before I came to terms with it, and even nowadays, 12 years later, I am still mourning for her..... :cry:

love you,
Mieke :kiss: :cry:

Seeker of truth
Dec 31st 2007, 12:07 AM
God knows that I would have gladly died for my baby......... but I couldn't keep it because it was growing in my tube...... it was either the end of the life of the baby or the end of the life of us both....... it had no survival chances where it was growing and moving it was impossible......... :cry:
God knows I am still mourning.... He gave me a dream where I saw my babygirl laying in a cradle in Heaven, waiting for me to come to her........ and one day I will.......
It was not my choice....... and it took quite a while before I came to terms with it, and even nowadays, 12 years later, I am still mourning for her..... :cry:

love you,
Mieke :kiss: :cry:

Honey, I do not consider this to be abortion. The baby had no chance for survival. I consider it to be a life saving proceedure as you could well have died without the surgery.

Someday you will be reunited with your daughter. Jesus holds her on His lap and together they smile down on her mommy :hug: :kiss:

Kiba
Dec 31st 2007, 12:48 AM
I go to college and my psychology professer went ballistic when she learned I was pro-life. Her justification for abortion is that the fetus is not alive because its just a bunch of cells. I was FLOORED. Human beings are made of billions of cells!! I didn't say anything in reply to her because I was so shocked at her illogical thought procesing- not to mention that she holds the power over my grade. I still don't understand how she can justify her argument, especially after her lecture about brain cells.

Seeker of truth
Dec 31st 2007, 01:16 AM
If my daughter (I don't actually have one, but, yanno, theoretically) had been raped and did not want to go through the ordeals of pregnancy and childbirth on top of all she had already faced, I would not force her to on the grounds that it's a sin to kill the foetus. This should be the only circumstance when a Christian should have to make the choice - unplanned pregnancies are irresponsible, there are many responsible ways to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.

If unforseen health problems should arise leaving the mother's survival in question, it remains a sin to kill the foetus, but of course - should she choose to do so, I would not judge her. I would assume that she would not need me to tell her that it was a sin, and as such would be asking forgiveness anyway, but regardless - it is not for us to judge.

How does rape justify murder? The murder of an innocent? The child has done nothing wrong. A victim of rape doesn't have to remain a victim of rape. She can allow her child to be born and place it for adoption if she is too traumatized to raise it herself. It is her child, not just the child of the man who raped her. She can become a survivor or rape and move past it. With His help all things are possible. Killing the child will only serve to place guilt on someone who should bear none.

ddmor
Dec 31st 2007, 03:57 AM
You know, it's one thing that you insist that abortion is murder, whether or not it's done to save the life of the mother - it's another thing to live it.

While I was willing to tell the Lord that I would gladly give my life if it meant my baby would live (this was after going through a horrific abortion experience) ... by the time I was pregnant with number 7 ... it was harder to say it, so I knew it was then time for me to stop getting pregnant. While I don't think I'm a pinacle of motherhood - I still find it hard to force this on other women. One would hope that every mother would feel this way - but in reality we know that isn't true. Do we want to make it a law that women have to die or give birth? Talk about a police state!! What are you going to do, put her in jail to make sure she delievers?

I also would like to say that saying it's murder is hard for those of us who have lived through horrific abortion experiences to hear. We know we were wrong, infact we call ourselves murderer on a (sometimes) secondly basis. There's no name you can call me that I haven't called myself. It's still hard to hear it from others.

Now I know you all are passionate about wanting to educate about what abortion does to a baby, and to stop abortion from happening - and I'm applauding your efforts; but understand that many times there are 2 victims in abortion. Yes the babies die - but something dies in the mothers, too.

The true murderers are the policy makers, those that profit from abortion (and thus women don't get truthful counsel before the fact!! How is that a choice??) and those people won't listen to reason about what abortion is doing. They are going to protect abortion no matter what, and won't even listen to how it's killing this nation.

Jeanne D
Dec 31st 2007, 04:45 AM
(((ddmor))):hug:

God has forgiven you, have you forgiven yourself?

I do not agree with abortion, but the women that have them can find forgiveness and healing.

Jeanne

EIN
Dec 31st 2007, 04:58 AM
So, some of you say that unplanned pregnancies ending in abortion are justified, eh?

Think about this. If a teenage girl, who is not yet married, becomes pregnant NOT by the man she's engaged to be married to, that is justifiable, right? If that's the case, then none of use would be on this board. This board would not exist. Christians and Christianity would not be. If you're ok with this, then Mary should've had an abortion.

Just my two yen worth.

EIN
Dec 31st 2007, 04:59 AM
(((ddmor))):hug:

God has forgiven you, have you forgiven yourself?

I do not agree with abortion, but the women that have them can find forgiveness and healing.

Jeanne

Exactly. What's done is done. We serve a forgiving God. Jesus' last words before He died were about forgiveness. I'm thankful that He can take my screwed up life and make it new.

GodisGr8
Dec 31st 2007, 05:07 AM
Save us all, Jesus!

:pray:

Amazedgrace21
Dec 31st 2007, 05:50 AM
ddmor please know the pain I can read in your words just breaks my heart and I come along side of you that God will provide you comfort and the peace of knowing your need..this is why I despise this so much and have dedicated so much of myself to it since I was in Highschool..

When I was in college it was a common practice for girls who got pregnant to run around and take up collections for $300.00 to make the trip from WV to PA to get abortions..two of my dearest friends at the time were among women who were on their second abortions in the first year I met them, the first one while in HS, and then again while in college..this was in the early 1970's.

My one friend married the fella that she had gotten pregnant by both times..they later became Christians..I knew her pain and regrets every step of the way..she had a terrible time becoming pregnant..and when she finally did, because of complications from her previous abortions she lost the baby in the third trimester..and because of complications from the delivery, she died a few days later.

My other friend also became a Christian, suffered terrible regrets..and was to find out becasue of her abortions she could never again get pregnant after four miscarraiges.

One of the girls I found out a collection was being taken up for was my own sister, after the fact. I was not a Christian at the time but all of this profoundly affected me and put me on the path to years of trying to do something to interceed on behalf of all of this.

I used to teach in rural schools and low income districts where I sat in classrooms with girls who were babies, having babies..schools where more than 35% of the girls were in various stages of pregnancy, some with their second child and not even 18 years old. Sat in Public Health Clinic's as a student, married and pregnant where grandaughter, mother and grandmother were all pregnant and there for pre-natl care. This was again in the 1970's..

In the past 7 years I have personally sponsored, supported and stood by 5 single mothers and their newborns that were former students of mine after their parents threw them out and I watched a beloved friend of mine commit suicide in front of me because I could not get to her in time,she had gotten an abortion because her husband had left her and she was literally out of her mind with guilt and grief. There is not an aspect of any of this that has not touched my life, including the grief of a having to undego the surgical removal the stillborn baby I carried that I lost after a partial miscarraige in the beginning of the second trimester between my third and fourth child.

All this said and done... My commitment is to the women and the child here when it comes to this and my fury is directed at the abortion industry for its role in this.

These are not reasons for abortions, these are the reasons why I call abortion murder because these are about choices, very bad, very wrong ones. These are the breakdown of why abortion clinics exist and elective abortions are done:

Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 16%
Woman can't afford baby now 21% Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12% Woman is unready for responsibility 21% Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 1% Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child 11% Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 8% Husband or partner wants woman to have an abortion 1% Fetus has possible health problem 3%


These are the lies that harm women and destroy their lives as well as destroy life that can't be justified , not now or ever. Abortion clinics and those that promote these reasons as justification to terminate a viable pregnancy.

Fifty-two percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 19%

Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women.

Forty-six percent of women having abortions did not use a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant

Over 60% of abortions are among women who have had one or more children

This is unacceptable, it has to be identified for what it is.It's a painful truth, but one I abide as one that is better to learn before this ever happens than after it has. I do not condem the women who have gone this path, my heart breaks for them. This is a cultural landmine as much as a spiritual one that haunts me to the core of my soul for their sake.:hug:

YSIC,
Grace.

ddmor
Dec 31st 2007, 06:36 AM
Grace & Jeanne D - I have noticed that both your posts have always been tempered with compassion.

Thank you both!! :hug:

ImmenseDisciple
Dec 31st 2007, 05:12 PM
How does rape justify murder? The murder of an innocent? The child has done nothing wrong. A victim of rape doesn't have to remain a victim of rape. She can allow her child to be born and place it for adoption if she is too traumatized to raise it herself. It is her child, not just the child of the man who raped her. She can become a survivor or rape and move past it. With His help all things are possible. Killing the child will only serve to place guilt on someone who should bear none.
I still feel it's the would-be mother's place to choose. I appreciate your viewpoint, and from my very disconnected (read: male) standpoint it's easy to agree with you. That said, I would never force, or even attempt to force someone to go through the pregnancy and childbirth of a rapist's child. If they asked me for advice, I would even find it hard to do anything more than gently suggest that to keep the child would be the better choice. I just couldn't pressure someone to do either.
And for what it's worth, I strongly disagree with people repeatedly referring to abortion as murder in this thread... Please choose your words more carefully.

Seeker of truth
Dec 31st 2007, 06:01 PM
I still feel it's the would-be mother's place to choose. I appreciate your viewpoint, and from my very disconnected (read: male) standpoint it's easy to agree with you. That said, I would never force, or even attempt to force someone to go through the pregnancy and childbirth of a rapist's child. If they asked me for advice, I would even find it hard to do anything more than gently suggest that to keep the child would be the better choice. I just couldn't pressure someone to do either.
And for what it's worth, I strongly disagree with people repeatedly referring to abortion as murder in this thread... Please choose your words more carefully.

I have been there. I have no regrets. Had I aborted my daughter I would have had guilt on top of trauma. I know most men see things differently and I take that into account ;)

As for the repeted murder coments I totally agree with you....there are women here who have had abortions. Can we please keep that in mind? We should all speak as Christians.... loving. No one is disputing abortion is wrong. I doubt any of them would have another abortion and have already suffered enough.

Amazedgrace21
Dec 31st 2007, 08:23 PM
I still feel it's the would-be mother's place to choose. I appreciate your viewpoint, and from my very disconnected (read: male) standpoint it's easy to agree with you. That said, I would never force, or even attempt to force someone to go through the pregnancy and childbirth of a rapist's child. If they asked me for advice, I would even find it hard to do anything more than gently suggest that to keep the child would be the better choice. I just couldn't pressure someone to do either.
And for what it's worth, I strongly disagree with people repeatedly referring to abortion as murder in this thread... Please choose your words more carefully.

Since I am one of those who have confronted abortion as the act of sin that it is, and am deeply aware of the need for compassion and grace required to be given on behalf of the women being discussed I want to try to extend some more meaningfulness to the word, "abortion'. We can not step away from what it is as Christians but we can respond to it with the provisions of Christ's character and example. We have to go to war when it comes the sin itself..there is no fence sitting here..but we have to be ministers to all of the victims of this war because of very tragic and wrong choices. :cry:

My position is that women are also exploited by abortion, damaged, harmed, violated and as some have shared..victims of this crime in many ways that are ignored, unknown and both unintentionally and intentionally misrepresented by those who advocate "pro-choice" IMHO.

This is not about pressuring someone to make a choice but to inform them what the nature of the choice is and to be fully informed of so many of the consequences that are forseeable,when it comes to them. This needs to be done with love, not condemnation..yet at the same time the truth needs to be offered as an act of love.

We tend to see only half of the evil of abortion when it comes to the unborn infant but I personally never stop seeing the "aborted women" either..and this is another truth that needs to be brought into the light on this subject.:hug: We can never lose sight of who the true enemy is that we are doing war with when we speak of sin.

This needs to be remembered when it comes to much on this topic:

Before the abortion, Christ condemns it and Satan makes excuses for it. After the abortion, Satan is the one condemning it while Christ forgives it.

If you have any doubts, read David Reardon’s Aborted Women, Silent No More, originally published in 1987 and just re-released by Acorn Books.




It may sound strange to speak of "aborted" women, since it's actually their children who were aborted. But Reardon — who heads the Elliott Institute, (http://www.afterabortion.org/) specializing in post-abortion research — understands that the women have also been subjected to a type of violence, both physical and spiritual. So he spends some pages simply letting them tell their own stories.

Listen, first, to their voices:

Alice: [After the abortion] I didn’t realize why I felt bad. My boyfriend took me home. It wasn’t long after I got home that I knew — it just hit me — that I had killed my baby. . . . I had six years of depression after my abortion. . . . I hated myself. . . . A lot of times I wanted to die. . . .

Carol: One night Jim’s band was playing at a local club and he insisted I go with him. Up to that point [since the abortion] I hadn’t left the house. . . . people still thought I was pregnant. One of the wives came up and said, “You must be thrilled! When’s the due date?” I about died and had to think fast. My emotions about it all were rushing again; and as I looked at Jim, I could honestly say that I hated him. First the abortion and now this! I knew I’d have to lie in order to protect his rapport with our peers. I sadly told her that I had miscarried. We left shortly thereafter because I couldn’t handle the sympathy these people were giving to me — me, a murderer!

Sarah: The thought of having a defective baby . . . was enough to drive me to kill. That says a lot about my morally bankrupt condition.

Those feelings are undeniably real. The most hardened feminists will say they’re misplaced, a product of religious propaganda. And in fact, the women quoted above have embraced Christianity — but after their abortions. Prior to that, and often for years afterward, many who now oppose abortion were active feminists, abortion-rights activists, even atheists.

It wasn’t Christianity that first made them feel the guilt. It was personal experience.



Several studies show one in 10 women who get abortions are subsequently hospitalized for clinical depression or other psychological consequences related to abortion. (Among WEBA women surveyed, the number rose: One in five reported a “nervous breakdown” or “complete mental breakdown.”) For each of those women, numerous others suffer untreated through a string of broken relationships, alternating promiscuity or sexual frigidity, heavy drinking, drugs — behaviors that often were nonexistent or far less pronounced prior to the abortion.

Most important, these problems don’t go away or lessen with the passage of time. On the contrary, Reardon says, they get worse. While abortion supporters say women’s primary feeling after abortion is relief, follow-up studies show that regrets, guilt and other emotional consequences grow more severe years down the line. In fact, Reardon writes after reviewing studies from sources with a variety of views on abortion,

The trend is clear to anyone who looks. The negative, WEBA-like abortion experience is the rule rather than the exception. Many aborted women will deny it by hiding their emotions and telling little or nothing of their experience. Others may hide it behind the anger and bitterness they feel toward other persons who were involved, especially the male. But most will admit they are troubled. They simply don’t know what to do other than to try to forget it and move on.

And forgetting it doesn’t work. Not even in sleep, where persistent nightmares about aborted children are common. The sight of a child is enough to spark deep sadness and tears. And then there are cases like Carol’s, while waiting for a doctor’s exam five years after her last abortion:

After the nurse left the room, I started looking around, checking things out. To my shock and complete loss of control, I saw, two feet from my left foot, a suction aspirator machine! I freaked out. I had a total flashback of my abortion experience. I began crying uncontrollably, got up, dressed, and ran out into the hall, hyperventilating. I found the nurse and was near hysteria as I explained why I couldn’t go back in there. She understood, and tried comforting me, reassuring me their office did not do abortions but that the machine was used for other purposes. She took the machine out of the room. I returned shaken and surprised at my lack of self-control. I wonder . . . will it ever end?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
We as Christians are not to give our 'advice' but offer the truth in love, minister to the place of the need..the unborn child is one of those who needs us and the mothers of these children are the other ones..abortion never can or will meet either of those needs but we can allow Christ to show us how and be willing to be used to do so in spirit, in prayer ,in words and actions.:hug:

Revinius
Jan 1st 2008, 07:40 AM
I still feel it's the would-be mother's place to choose. I appreciate your viewpoint, and from my very disconnected (read: male) standpoint it's easy to agree with you. That said, I would never force, or even attempt to force someone to go through the pregnancy and childbirth of a rapist's child. If they asked me for advice, I would even find it hard to do anything more than gently suggest that to keep the child would be the better choice. I just couldn't pressure someone to do either.
And for what it's worth, I strongly disagree with people repeatedly referring to abortion as murder in this thread... Please choose your words more carefully.

Isnt a baby a gift of God regardless of the circumstance in which it came? Why punish the child for the sin of the father? Would you play God with someones life? Who then is the God of your actions? Yourself? *go the rhetoric*

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 1st 2008, 03:33 PM
Hey Revinius, I'm not trying to avoid tricky questions, I just don't know enough of your views to respond to most of what you said, anyway;

Would you play God with someones life?
I'm assuming you've made the decision that this holds true only when ending a life, but not also when saving one.
Both take away God's sovereign rule over life and death. As the child could not form outside of the womb, to put an end to it's development isn't really in the same league in terms of 'getting invloved' with, for example, putting a premature child on life support immediately after birth.
The fact that modern science is capable of sustaining a child who under no other circumstances (short of direct divine intervention) would survive is indeed nothing short of miraculous. Who are you to say that the possibilty modern science can save the life of a mother on whom the strain of childbirth would end not only her life but also that of the child (short of direct divine intervention) is any less a miracle?
Being completely informed as to the effects of the procedure is of course absolutely vital. Likewise, it's not a decision to be taken lightly- but if all that we can ascertain points to the death of both mother and child if nothing is done, and the abortion guarantees the mother's survival, I don't see it as your place to dictate what should be done.

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 1st 2008, 03:41 PM
Another great post, grace, wonderfully informative. This quote:
This is not about pressuring someone to make a choice but to inform them what the nature of the choice is and to be fully informed of so many of the consequences that are forseeable,when it comes to them. This needs to be done with love, not condemnation.
I agree with 99.99%, if not more :D

Revinius
Jan 1st 2008, 04:17 PM
Hey Revinius, I'm not trying to avoid tricky questions, I just don't know enough of your views to respond to most of what you said, anyway;

I'm assuming you've made the decision that this holds true only when ending a life, but not also when saving one.
Both take away God's sovereign rule over life and death. As the child could not form outside of the womb, to put an end to it's development isn't really in the same league in terms of 'getting invloved' with, for example, putting a premature child on life support immediately after birth.
The fact that modern science is capable of sustaining a child who under no other circumstances (short of direct divine intervention) would survive is indeed nothing short of miraculous. Who are you to say that the possibilty modern science can save the life of a mother on whom the strain of childbirth would end not only her life but also that of the child (short of direct divine intervention) is any less a miracle?
Being completely informed as to the effects of the procedure is of course absolutely vital. Likewise, it's not a decision to be taken lightly- but if all that we can ascertain points to the death of both mother and child if nothing is done, and the abortion guarantees the mother's survival, I don't see it as your place to dictate what should be done.

I make no judgement on anyone unless i see it in breach of the biblical teachings of which they claim to uphold. Once you have a child your body is no longer your own, be that child a fetus or a baby who needs milk. One of the big factors in the becoming a Christian is the realisation that God ordained us with the responsibility of governing his creation. At the micro level this applies even more with Gods creation of a new baby of which we are the steward. Going simply along the argument that the mother is already saved is grounds that the preservation of the child is of utmost importance. Regardless of modern science, which is also in submission to God, the ultimate card lies with God and Christian decisions should be as selfless as sacrificing oneself for any other pursuit like someone about to be hit by a car or a comrade in a warzone. To live is Christ and to die is gain, why are we being so worldly about such things.

I am not saying throw caution to the wind and just 'leave it to God' because that would be foolish as we have a responsibility. But i am saying that the choices we make in our responsibility should be heavenly in its focus. The fear for our lives that governs us is wholly irrational when you look at everything within the scope of the eternity with which God gave us. So to those who have not been blessed and those who have not yet had a chance at a relationship with God, be liberal with your life. Not foolish but liberal.

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 1st 2008, 04:39 PM
I make no judgement on anyone unless i see it in breach of the biblical teachings of which they claim to uphold.
It may be harsh to point this out - but you're admitting that you put yourself in the seat of judgement right there, aren't you?
That's a huge problem for me which seems to come to the fore with many issues. We want to consider ourselves an authority, with enough knowledge on the issue that it's reasonable for us to judge, or presume what God's judgement on the issue is. That's one convinient thing about being a 'baby' Christian - I'm always painfully aware of my lack of knowledge. I frequently start writing a post, then decide I'm not endowed to comment and delete it :D

That said - we are in no position to state to every woman who has ever had an abortion to save their life that God wanted them dead, (or, perhaps, wanted to perform a miracle and save them) and that is the only position the 'black/white' standpoint allows.


Christian decisions should be as selfless as sacrificing oneself for any other pursuit like someone about to be hit by a car or a comrade in a warzone.You're talking about sacrficing yourself for someone's gain, though. Sacrificing yourself in order that you don't have to play an active role in the inevitable death of your child is of course a very different matter.


I am not saying throw caution to the wind and just 'leave it to God' because that would be foolish as we have a responsibility.
To refuse to act in order to save your own life, when neither action nor inaction will save the child is precisely that - throwing it all to God, and refusing to take responsibility.

Revinius
Jan 2nd 2008, 02:02 AM
How am i placing myself in authority when its by God's hand and the Christian persons themself that they claim to submit to? As i said, i pass no judgement unless its a matter of concern regarding Biblical salvation of one or more people. With God as the judge of all is it not fitting that his Word stands in judgement of us? Rightious judgement by his word is not only reasonable it is required!

I am not talking of sacrificing oneself so that someone might gain, i am talking about sacrificing oneself regardless of gain. Merely, giving the undeserved love that Christ gave us, . If a mother is to choose between herself and her baby, thats a massive and tough decision to make and i totally would hope someone to never be in that position, i would hope she would have an eternal viewpoint rather than a worldly one.

How many miracles have you seen in your life? Hindsight being 20/20 you have probably seen many. Your own conversion would be one of the big ones. Jesus making you his own is an amazing feat of love and sacrifice that must continually blow your mind as much as it does for us all. Imagine if by your action, your judgement, you claim the life of a person whom God may have desired to be with him. You took away their chance to choose... Is that not the very evil that we stand against? Isnt that the difference we live against? The mother is already saved, she lives in Christ and shall not perish, so what then can she gain by preserving her own life and not the chance to give her child life? Nothing. She has already got more than any of us could ever want, Jesus.

I thought it interesting you would label the death of this hypothetical womans child 'inevitable'. Given, as Christians and the miracles seen in our lives, how can you come by that conclusion? If God is no good at miracles anymore, can he really be God anymore?

I urge you to put on some eternal goggles and think about it a bit. This life is nothing when your batting for Jesus team. As Christians its only gonna get better for us as the trials and tribulations we face will eventually only turn to joy at the hands of our father when we are in heaven. God gave up himself on the cross, to save someone who is clearly and in all respects of the word 'Undeserving' of it. How much more then should we be following his example and giving ourselves up for the life of something that lives within us when we have only to gain from it. Its not something that you should label as being a foolish thing, but something that is clearly not of this world, not of the values of this world.

I dont want to take up too much space so i will end it there but i truly think that if your with God you cant look at things like this life is all there is. Just like a good driver looking far ahead on the road, we all need to have an eternal rather than finite perspective on what it is to be a Christian.

Athanasius
Jan 2nd 2008, 02:39 AM
Francine, if the mother's life is in jeopardy then yes, I do think it's ok. Other than that, there's no good reason. Abortion is clearly murder.

So even though it's clearly murder,
it's alright to murder the child to save the mothers life?
Did you want to provide me scripture allowing instances of murder?

Is it;
'Thou shalt not murder'. . . Unless you perceive your unborn child may cause complications during birth, which may then result in your wifes death or the death of your wife and child.

Or is it;
'Thou shalt not murder'?

It is selfish motivation.
I believe abortion is wrong.
That abortion is murder.

It isn't my intention to condemn women who've had abortions, they need all the grace they can get. It's not my intention to judge women who've had abortions.

Lefty
Jan 2nd 2008, 07:33 AM
Sorry if this is on the wrong board. How is abortion NOT murder? Murder by definition is the intent to kill. Any woman who has an abortion is intentionally(sp?) killing her baby. So how is that NOT murder?

I want to bump the original question here, which is only about the use of the word "murder".

Language is fluid and constantly changing. The dictionary definition of a word is useful as a reference point, but the true meaning, the most useful meaning of any word is simply whatever the hearer understands it to be, so the general consensus and popular use of words is what we need to look at. The reason is that we want to communicate clearly.

"Murder" to us, is what happens when someone kills another with motives like hate, envy, jealousy, greed etc.. It's what we see on TV, books and newspapers all the time. Women who get abortions aren't called that. When we call them murderers all we're trying to do is re-define the word to include them and lump them together with these people. We want them to be included because we're running on high emotions. Emotions have to be guided by reason, or else we go astray.

The 'reason' here is that the word "murder" is clearly 'spin'. It's not the commonly understood description of abortion, but only the one we want to be. I don't like to spin because I think truth ought to be told straight, every time. When we don't, trust is eventually lost. We live in a world of trust issues because of that, and when people actually do here straight talk, it's a welcome relief.

Is calling abortion "murder" straight talk? NO, it's spin. It's for shock value.

I would'nt look a woman who'd had an abortion in the eye and call her a murderer, I do know that. I'd have to expect that I'd come off as cruel and drive her away. So why would I want anyone using it to describe abortion in any circumstance? Does it ever help anything?

Abortion is "sin" when the intent is sinful. Going beyond that isn't 100% honest.

Revinius
Jan 2nd 2008, 02:47 PM
I want to bump the original question here, which is only about the use of the word "murder".

Language is fluid and constantly changing. The dictionary definition of a word is useful as a reference point, but the true meaning, the most useful meaning of any word is simply whatever the hearer understands it to be, so the general consensus and popular use of words is what we need to look at. The reason is that we want to communicate clearly.

"Murder" to us, is what happens when someone kills another with motives like hate, envy, jealousy, greed etc.. It's what we see on TV, books and newspapers all the time. Women who get abortions aren't called that. When we call them murderers all we're trying to do is re-define the word to include them and lump them together with these people. We want them to be included because we're running on high emotions. Emotions have to be guided by reason, or else we go astray.

The 'reason' here is that the word "murder" is clearly 'spin'. It's not the commonly understood description of abortion, but only the one we want to be. I don't like to spin because I think truth ought to be told straight, every time. When we don't, trust is eventually lost. We live in a world of trust issues because of that, and when people actually do here straight talk, it's a welcome relief.

Is calling abortion "murder" straight talk? NO, it's spin. It's for shock value.

I would'nt look a woman who'd had an abortion in the eye and call her a murderer, I do know that. I'd have to expect that I'd come off as cruel and drive her away. So why would I want anyone using it to describe abortion in any circumstance? Does it ever help anything?

Abortion is "sin" when the intent is sinful. Going beyond that isn't 100% honest.

I dont consider it spin, murder is the premeditated act of killing another human being. If we simply refer to it as killing and we oppose it them we open ourselves up to appearing like hypocrites when our view of soldiers and war would appear somewhat different. If you desire to refer to it as: 'The Premeditated act of killing' as opposed to the definition of murder then by all means go ahead. As for shock value, although it does have negatives it only goes to highlight the difference we stand for.

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 2nd 2008, 06:56 PM
Rev, you've kinda missed all my points mate :D I'm not going to tell you to go back and read what I've said again, but if you're going to respond it serves you better to respond to what i actually said...


How am i placing myself in authority when its by God's hand and the Christian persons themself that they claim to submit to? As i said, i pass no judgement unless its a matter of concern regarding Biblical salvation of one or more people. With God as the judge of all is it not fitting that his Word stands in judgement of us? Rightious judgement by his word is not only reasonable it is required!
"I pass no judgement unless..." specifically states that you do indeed pass judgement. Yet as you state yourself, God is the judge. You are not perfect, and thus are not capable of righteous judgment. But still, you judge.


I am not talking of sacrificing oneself so that someone might gain, i am talking about sacrificing oneself regardless of gain. Merely, giving the undeserved love that Christ gave us,
But Christ's sacrifice was not in vain. It was not a futile gesture. He sacrificed Himself for us. His sacrifice was for our gain. The parallels to Christ in the situation we've been discussing seem very flimsy indeed.


If a mother is to choose between herself and her baby, thats a massive and tough decision to make and i totally would hope someone to never be in that position, i would hope she would have an eternal viewpoint rather than a worldly one.
That's not what we were discussing, though. I have no doubt whatsoever that many non-Christian mothers, and all Christian ones would sacrifice themselves for their child in an instant. But to reiterate- that is not what we were discussing.


I thought it interesting you would label the death of this hypothetical womans child 'inevitable'. Given, as Christians and the miracles seen in our lives, how can you come by that conclusion?
I specifically stated several times that short of God's direct action the hypothetical child was inevitably going to die.


I urge you to put on some eternal goggles and think about it a bit. This life is nothing when your batting for Jesus team.
So I shouldn't bother looking for cars when I cross the road? I am well aware that this life pales into comparison to the next. That is beside the point.


How much more then should we be following his example and giving ourselves up for the life of something that lives within us when we have only to gain from it.
You're talking about giving up a life for the life of your child again. That's not what we were discussing.


Let's go back a step, then;
REV:I am not saying throw caution to the wind and just 'leave it to God' because that would be foolish as we have a responsibility.
ID: To refuse to act in order to save your own life, when neither action nor inaction will save the child is precisely that - throwing it all to God, and refusing to take responsibility.

You accept that we must take responsibility and act, but also say that we should feel free to rely 100% on God for a miracle. So what's your opinion? Do you genuinely consider this a black and white issue?

Bassplayerchick
Jan 2nd 2008, 09:30 PM
You can't kill what isn't born. Besides, the world is over populated as it is.

Fighting Instinct
Jan 2nd 2008, 10:50 PM
It IS murder. :cry:
The debate is when life actually starts in the womb. That is why pro abortionist believe the way they do.

Seeker of truth
Jan 3rd 2008, 12:41 AM
You can't kill what isn't born. Besides, the world is over populated as it is.

So you believe abortion should be allowed and is justified as a means of population control?

Athanasius
Jan 3rd 2008, 01:09 AM
You can't kill what isn't born. Besides, the world is over populated as it is.


The debate is when life actually starts in the womb. That is why pro abortionist believe the way they do.

Yes, the ever present 150 cell division stage.
Regarding twins, does the soul split as well ;)

I think that's only one part of the debate.
As a child I was taught that if I drop a wild birds egg, I would be killing a bird.
Anyone have a similar experience?

Now I'm told that if we kill a fetus we are killing something that isn't 'alive'
That isn't human.
But if you kill it, you prevent a human from being born.

Regarding bassplayerchick's response; what?
Let's talk about third trimester babies (I won't be referring to them as fetuses'). You have a baby born prematurely at 38 weeks and doctors try to save it's life because it's breathing and alive.

Someone else aborts the same baby at 38 weeks.
Is there a double standard? Is that premature baby 'not alive'? If not, when does it 'become alive'?

And the world isn't really overpopulated. . . it's just that no one cares to help each other out.

sjorgens
Jan 3rd 2008, 01:41 AM
Where in the Bible does it put a limit on how many people we can have? In fact, it states to be fruitful and multiply. The real problem is not population. Its human sin that causes many in the population to suffer or lack. I hear this argument that the world is overpopulated but don't wait for those who make this argument to take personal steps to fix the problem. Oh No!!!! They mean somebody else needs to go. In many cases its the unwanted unborn. Notice also that everyone who makes this argument has successfully completed their trip through the birth canal. There was mass starvation and suffering way back when the world had only a fraction of the its current population.

Dan

Revinius
Jan 3rd 2008, 06:17 AM
Ok immense, none of us seem to be getting the hints of what the other is saying so i will just end it on one comment. For me, responsibility supercedes personal safety, if the mother cannot die (she is in christ) yet the child's salvation is still in question then we nay she has the responsibility to the child over her own self. Is is thus showing more responsibility by looking further ahead and making the tough decision in line with the word. Its not a judgement by me but by God for its his word that is the guide through which right judgement can be made.

Revinius
Jan 3rd 2008, 06:19 AM
Where in the Bible does it put a limit on how many people we can have? In fact, it states to be fruitful and multiply. The real problem is not population. Its human sin that causes many in the population to suffer or lack. I hear this argument that the world is overpopulated but don't wait for those who make this argument to take personal steps to fix the problem. Oh No!!!! They mean somebody else needs to go. In many cases its the unwanted unborn. Notice also that everyone who makes this argument has successfully completed their trip through the birth canal. There was mass starvation and suffering way back when the world had only a fraction of the its current population.

Dan

I think Driscoll puts it well by saying: "If the worlds over populated i would rather fill it with people i like." :)

Revinius
Jan 3rd 2008, 06:21 AM
You can't kill what isn't born. Besides, the world is over populated as it is.

Its killing what is not yet borns capacity to live. Which, just like lusting after someone in your head, is as bad as the act of killing a newborn itself.

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 3rd 2008, 06:02 PM
Ok immense, none of us seem to be getting the hints of what the other is saying so i will just end it on one comment. For me, responsibility supercedes personal safety, if the mother cannot die (she is in christ) yet the child's salvation is still in question then we nay she has the responsibility to the child over her own self. Is is thus showing more responsibility by looking further ahead and making the tough decision in line with the word. Its not a judgement by me but by God for its his word that is the guide through which right judgement can be made.
Fair enough, I understand your position.

torazon
Feb 4th 2008, 10:31 PM
You know folks, one problem with this whole issue is the secular term for this practice. Abortion sounds a lot nicer than saying "murdered or killed the unborn child". The secular society has been beating terms like this into our heads for so long that we have become desensitized.

If you want to support this practice for whatever your reasons are that's between you and God. But at least have the spine to call it what it really is!

Sorry if that is too strong but there is just no grey area on murder, especially an innocent child.

Jeanne D
Feb 5th 2008, 12:01 AM
You can't kill what isn't born. Besides, the world is over populated as it is.

Do you have any children? Have you ever been pregnant?
I assure you I felt my boys moving long before they were born, they got hiccups in the womb and they kicked too.
They were alive, even though they weren't born.

I just don't understand that train of thought.

Jeanne

torazon
Feb 5th 2008, 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by Bassplayerchick http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1487881#post1487881)
You can't kill what isn't born. Besides, the world is over populated as it is.


This is another huge problem with the issue. Secular world has brainwashed people into thinking that's not a human life. Well what do you think is going to possibly come out of there a kitten?! And that baby is very much alive from the time of conception thank you, otherwise it would not be growing, it's heart would not be beating, it would not be kicking the inside of the mother. And wow, no regard for human life whatsoever by using population as a justification.

Despite what a baby may look like in early development (fetus) it is still a human and can NEVER be anything but that.

Another term we use far too often is fetus. Sounds a lot better when coupled with abortion though, coincidence I think not. "They aborted the fetus" vs "they killed the unborn baby". Oh how nice and PC so nobody is offended by what is really happening that we blind ourselves to. We just give it a nice sterile medical term and everyone sleeps better.


:B

Revinius
Feb 5th 2008, 06:44 AM
I agree the whole term abortion does sound like one of those reverse engineered military terms like "advancing to the rear" for running away or retreating. Or maybe its like with a computer, "i will abort this process and end it". Its quite far fetched really, murder is the premediated act of killing another human. Regardless of arguments for/against it being human, the denial of its opportunity to become human is just as bad if not worse. Thus it is murder as a its a premeditated act that denies a human the choice to live.