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mkor4
Dec 30th 2007, 02:50 PM
Why did Jesus die on the cross?
Can you please tell me why did Jesus have to die on the cross to take on our sins(imperfections) and illnesses?Does God really want us to be perfect?I mean why would he make us imperfect(have sin) for someone to have to then have to come and die for that.Or if its that God didnt make us imperfect but it has something to do with Adam and Eve? can someone please explain to me what they actually did wrong?As i child i remember being taught it had something to do with sex but that doesnt makes sense.Ive also heard it had something to do with eating the apple? which symbolized partaking from the tree of knowledge instead of the tree of life-can someone please explain this to me,and also why was death involved-why the act of death-why would Jesus dying take away our sins?

Steven3
Dec 30th 2007, 03:07 PM
Hello MKor4 :)
Can you please tell me why did Jesus have to die on the cross to take on our sins (imperfections) and illnesses?To reconcile us to God as Eph2:16 "might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility", note not reconcile God to us, God hasn't done anything wrong and doesn't need to be straightened out.
Does God really want us to be perfect? I mean why would he make us imperfect (have sin) for someone to have to then have to come and die for that.Well Jesus does say "be ye perfect" but it's more a case that God wants us to want to be perfect, enough to humble ourselves and put on Christ.
Or if its that God didnt make us imperfect but it has something to do with Adam and Eve? can someone please explain to me what they actually did wrong? As i child i remember being taught it had something to do with sex but that doesnt makes sense.Too right it doesn't make sense :) God commanded them to have babies before they sinned, not after. It had nothing to do with sex in marriage. What they did was simply disobey about which tree to eat from.
I've also heard it had something to do with eating the apple? which symbolized partaking from the tree of knowledge instead of the tree of life-can someone please explain this to meThe apple thing is a mistake because in the language of the middle ages (Latin) "apple" and "evil" sounded similar. The two trees were basically props in a test - God could equally have used a red bottle and a blue bottle, or eat the turnip not the carrot. The important thing as that the result of doing what God says is life, and the result of disobeying death
and also why was death involved-why the act of death-why would Jesus dying take away our sins?Paul explains this in Romans 5. But you need to read Romans 1-4 to get the background. Have you got a modern language Bible handy? If you read it for yourself a couple of times, slowly, Romans will explain many of these questions. It's not really that mysterious :)
God bless
Steven

watchinginawe
Dec 31st 2007, 04:38 AM
That is a good question. Here are some points to consider.

We all know that every one of us will die (if the Lord tarries). This is a certainty. We also know that death is the beginning of corruption (decay, decomposition). In fact, this begins to occur even while we age. We just don't work like before. What brings man to death in this life and eternally is sin. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus took to the cross both of these "deaths" of man. But because Jesus was fully human (as well as divine) and lived without sin, He suffered death on the cross without cause. Jesus wasn't guilty of the charges brought against Him, but more importantly, Jesus wasn't worthy of death in any form even as a man since He was sinless. Because of this fact, Jesus' death, since He had no cause of death in sin, could bear the weight of our sin. So, in other words, Jesus died in order to bring us eternal life. No other man could have been worthy to "purchase" this for mankind. Jesus had to do this willingly and His death in our stead is "substituionary" or "vicarious". Jesus died for us (instead of us)!

So that is one death out of the way (the eternal death). But then, on the third day, Jesus Christ was resurrected. Peter offered the following in his sermon on the day of Pentecost: Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Jesus also claimed victory over our natural death as well, again because "it was not possible that he should be holden of it". In other words, because Jesus was not guilty of sin, Jesus would not be holden to the wages of sin. In Jesus' bodily resurrection, we are given the promise and assurance of our salvation by grace unto eternal life and the resurrection.

I hope this helps some.

God Bless!

9Marksfan
Dec 31st 2007, 12:19 PM
Hello MKor4 :)To reconcile us to God as Eph2:16 "might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility", note not reconcile God to us, God hasn't done anything wrong and doesn't need to be straightened out.

But it IS "two way" - we are all by nature children of wrath and we are God's enemies, as well as Him being our enemy - "It was while we were God's enemies that Christ died for us" NOT "It was while God was our enemy" (although that is true as well). The difference is that our rebellion against God is sinful and unlawful - yet His hostility towards us is just and holy - it required Jesus to come and die to be a "propitiation" for ours sins (ie turning away God's holy wrath from us by absorbing and exhausting it in Himself - Christ died as a penal substitute in our place, taking the punishment we deserved) - Christ became a curse for us - was made sin for us - in order that we might be reconciled to God - and He to us.

Steven3
Jan 1st 2008, 04:04 AM
Hi Marksfan :)
But it IS "two way" - we are all by nature children of wrath and we are God's enemies, as well as Him being our enemy - "It was while we were God's enemies that Christ died for us" NOT "It was while God was our enemy" (although that is true as well). The difference is that our rebellion against God is sinful and unlawful - yet His hostility towards us is just and holy - it required Jesus to come and die to be a "propitiation" for ours sins (ie turning away God's holy wrath from us by absorbing and exhausting it in Himself - Christ died as a penal substitute in our place, taking the punishment we deserved) - Christ became a curse for us - was made sin for us - in order that we might be reconciled to God - and He to us.

The enmity was 2-way, but the reconciling was 1-way. I'm simply making the point that God didn't need to be reconciled to man, we needed to be reconciled to him:

Ro 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

2Co5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; .......20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Col 1:19 For in him (Christ) all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him (Christ) to reconcile to Himself (God) all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his (Christ's) cross.

Reconciliation is only a 2-way street in the 1Co7 divorce passage, and similar human contexts. In our dispute with God the wrong is entirely on one side, ours.
God bless
Steven

danield
Jan 1st 2008, 04:28 AM
Can you please tell me why did Jesus have to die on the cross to take on our sins


Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19

I think the short answer is that for generations people had held animal sacrifices in order to receive forgiveness of their sins as Abraham did. So when Christ died he took away this practice and basically destroyed the way they used the temple and replaced it with the way Christ taught us. In essence, the perfect lamb was sacrificed for us.



Does God really want us to be perfect?

No that would be self worship. Only Christ was perfect.



can someone please explain to me what they actually did wrong


They disobeyed God.

9Marksfan
Jan 1st 2008, 04:58 PM
Hi Marksfan :)

The enmity was 2-way, but the reconciling was 1-way. I'm simply making the point that God didn't need to be reconciled to man, we needed to be reconciled to him:

Ro 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

2Co5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; .......20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Col 1:19 For in him (Christ) all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him (Christ) to reconcile to Himself (God) all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his (Christ's) cross.

Reconciliation is only a 2-way street in the 1Co7 divorce passage, and similar human contexts. In our dispute with God the wrong is entirely on one side, ours.
God bless
Steven

But if you accept that the emnity was indeed 2-way, did God's hostility to us not require to be dealt with as well? If so, how was it removed?

Steven3
Jan 2nd 2008, 01:50 AM
Hi Marksfan :)
But if you accept that the emnity was indeed 2-way, did God's hostility to us not require to be dealt with as well? If so, how was it removed?God is still hostile to man. If we are outside Christ the wages of sin is still death, his wrath still abides. Christ didn't die to reform/change/soften-up God, he died to call men to repentance and life in him.
Steven

Brother Mark
Jan 2nd 2008, 01:54 AM
I really like this thread. A great question and some interesting responses. What an edifying thread.

Here's another thought. Jesus died on the cross for God the Father. His reason was to please the Father.

mkor4
Jan 2nd 2008, 04:31 PM
Thankyou everybody.
Sorry im still confused,why would Jesus have to come and die to reconcile us with God-if God has made people imperfect than why would he be angry at us for our "sins"?
I think i understand Jesus died to please God the father because it was his will but im still not getting why that would be his will.
Sorry,i think im sounding confused.

watchinginawe
Jan 2nd 2008, 04:55 PM
Thankyou everybody.
Sorry im still confused,why would Jesus have to come and die to reconcile us with God-If we agree that reconciliation with God is eternal life, then answering the following questions might help you:

What would need to be overcome for man to have eternal life with God?
Can man overcome the answer to #1 himself (without aid)?Here is some scripture help:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
...
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
if God has made people imperfect than why would he be angry at us for our "sins"?This is a different quesiton altogether. :hmm: Man was made just as God purposed. But we refer to "the fall of man". What did man fall from? God did not separate Himself from man, but man from God by transgression.

God Bless!

HisLeast
Jan 2nd 2008, 05:00 PM
Thankyou everybody.
Sorry im still confused,why would Jesus have to come and die to reconcile us with God-if God has made people imperfect than why would he be angry at us for our "sins"?

Your parents made you knowing full well you'd foul up at some point or another. But they created you anyway, laid the rules down, and expected you to follow them. Now, in the cases where you willingly disobeyed, are they now at fault for having created you in the first place? What if your actions caused damages and you could face imprisonment or fine? Wouldn't your parents pay your fine for you, even if it wasn't their action that caused the damage?

Incidently, why did you use quotation marks around the word sin? Do you believe its a misused description?

drew
Jan 2nd 2008, 07:03 PM
Excellent question.

In essence, I believe the following:

1. God created a world with the property that if Adam sins, sin would then infect the very fabric of all creation, including, but not limited to people. God may not have a choice in this respect - in order to create a universe with the richness of ours, He may have needed to "take this chance". On this view, we are "born sinners" not so much because Adam's guilt is judicially imputed to us, but rather because, "that's the way the world works" as it were - it is just a fact of nature that sin, once it enters the world, spreads out and infects everything. Again, I speculate that this was a risk that God had to take if he wanted to make a universe like the one we have.

2. God wants to restore his creation - he wants to rid creation of the virus of sin.

3. God establishes a covenant with the nation of Israel - Israel will be the means by which sin will be defeated.

4. How can Israel do this? By the Law? No. The power of sin is too deeply woven into the fabric of reality for this to work. Instead, God chooses Israel to be the "place" where sin accumulates (through the action of the Law). Sin is literally like a "living thing" that can be "lured" into one place. And God has chosen Israel to be that place.

5. Since Israel is "in Adam" - the Jews share the fallen Adamic nature - she cannot really "seal the deal" in respect to defeating sin. So does God abandon his covenant to bless the nations of the world (by defeating the power of sin) through Israel? No. God finds a faithful Israelite who has not sinned - Jesus the Messiah.

6. The sin of the world has been accumulating in Israel through the Law - it is now passed onto the faithful Messiah, who acts on behalf of Israel. The covenant plan is nearing its climax - the power of sin has not truly been cornered in one place - the very flesh of Jesus.

7. There God condemns sin - de-activates it, breaks it power, whatever metaphor you want. This is what Romans 8:3 is about:

For what the Law could not do,weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in (the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

As you can perhaps infer, I do not see the atoning sacrifice so much as a judicial event that occurs in some abstract space. Rather I see it as a distinctly "physical" process that solved a very real physical problem - the infection of the cosmos with the "virus" of sin. I am not saying there are no "judicial" issues here, however.

I have stated a lot of things without providing supporting arguments. Please ask any questions. I am going out on a limb and will suggest I am only the poster thus far who will have expressed this kind of answer.

Steven3
Jan 3rd 2008, 02:30 AM
Hi MKor
Thankyou everybody.
Sorry im still confusedWho isn't? ;) Did you take the suggestion to sit down and slowly read Rom 1-6 twice in a modern version? :)
why would Jesus have to come and die to reconcile us with God-if God has made people imperfect than why would he be angry at us for our "sins"?God didn't create man imperfect, he created man "very good" Gen1:31, it was entirely Adam's choice, as it is our choice to sin. As it was Jesus' choice not to sin (Heb 2:14, 4:15, 5:7).
I think i understand Jesus died to please God the father because it was his will but im still not getting why that would be his will.
Sorry,i think im sounding confused.See Gal 1:4 and 1 Tim 2:4. Any help? But read Rom1-6 slowly first.
Steven

RoadWarrior
Jan 3rd 2008, 07:43 PM
Thankyou everybody.
Sorry im still confused,why would Jesus have to come and die to reconcile us with God-if God has made people imperfect than why would he be angry at us for our "sins"?
I think i understand Jesus died to please God the father because it was his will but im still not getting why that would be his will.
Sorry,i think im sounding confused.

Hi Mkor,

Thanks for continuing to ask the question. Perhaps we are not understanding what it is that you need to receive in answer to your question. You might have noticed that people on the forums tend to answer in theological terms, and everyone has their own view, or perspective, of Biblical issues. We don't always think of questions as being personal, but rather just a place of debate. I'd like to approach your question from a personal perspective.

God's anger is perhaps misconstrued in the teaching that you have received prior to this. His anger really is directed at the sin, not at the person. It is His desire that we should be delivered from the bondage of sin, from the grips of the enemy, Satan. This is why Jesus came to die - to deliver us from slavery to the evil one.

God is not angry at you. He loves you and wants to give you freedom and peace. He has paid the highest price to redeem you, and to set you free.

Are you familiar with this scripture? It is one that blesses me a lot.
1 Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. NKJV

The price which was paid for you, was the death of Jesus on the cross. It is a very high price, but that is how much God loves you. He was willing to pay that high price to set you free from sin and death, and to give you eternal life - that includes life now, not just life in heaven after we die.

Ro 6:22-23
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV

When we know and understand that Jesus died for this purpose, then we can pray this prayer:

Php 4:66 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. NKJV

Mkor, I really hope this is helpful to you. Please let me know if you have questions about the scriptures and the perspective that I have posted.

9Marksfan
Jan 4th 2008, 11:44 AM
Hi Marksfan :)God is still hostile to man.

But do you accept that for believers the hostility has been removed, because God's wrath was poured out in full upon Christ on the cross, as he was bearing that on our behalf? And if we trust that for ourselves, we receive all the benefits His death accomplished?


If we are outside Christ the wages of sin is still death, his wrath still abides.

Of course.


Christ didn't die to reform/change/soften-up God, he died to call men to repentance and life in him.
Steven

He died to satisfy God's holy law and justice, as all men are children of wrath and the cross had to deal with that first and foremost - otherwise, we could never be reconciled to God - His wrath would remain upon us, as no amount of repentance or obedience on our part could ever be enough to cancel out our sin and remove His righteous judgement from us. But Christ did it all!

Teke
Jan 4th 2008, 03:11 PM
Why did Jesus die on the cross?
Can you please tell me why did Jesus have to die on the cross to take on our sins(imperfections) and illnesses?Does God really want us to be perfect?I mean why would he make us imperfect(have sin) for someone to have to then have to come and die for that.Or if its that God didnt make us imperfect but it has something to do with Adam and Eve? can someone please explain to me what they actually did wrong?As i child i remember being taught it had something to do with sex but that doesnt makes sense.Ive also heard it had something to do with eating the apple? which symbolized partaking from the tree of knowledge instead of the tree of life-can someone please explain this to me,and also why was death involved-why the act of death-why would Jesus dying take away our sins?

Jesus is the created (man) and the uncreated (God) joined in one.


1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.

1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Jesus is the picture of perfect human worship. Jesus is our High Priest who offers sacrifice for us (Heb. 2:17). His whole life, from Incarnation to Resurrection depict this.

Steven3
Jan 5th 2008, 04:43 AM
But do you accept that for believers the hostility has been removed, Yes, obviously: Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility ... 16 and might reconcile us both (direct object, Jew and Gentile) to God (indirect object) in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.


because God's wrath was poured out in full upon Christ on the cross, as he was bearing that on our behalf? Which verse do you have in mind? To say that God "poured out his wrath in full on" Christ, sounds like in modern English God "took out all his anger on" Christ. I'd prefer to think of it in terms of 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

We should not forget that the cross was God's idea, God's will (Gethsemane) 2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us (direct object) to himself (indirect object) and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world (direct object) to himself (indirect object), not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

God didn't hand his Son over to Pilate and Annas in order to reconcile himself (grammatical direct object) to us (grammatical indirect object) in any sense. It's 100% the other way round. Christ's death was addressed to sinners, to persuade sinners, not to buy off his Father. I think you're saying this too, the restatement is for clarity. If reconciliation was a 2-way street it would be "Christ was reconciling man and God to each other". But he didn't, it wasn't a 2-way street. The idea of a 2-way street can occasionally be touched in verses such as "one mediator between man and God the man Christ Jesus" 1Tim2:5, and this is a useful analogy, but some aspects of the human-mediator analogy inevitably break up when one party (God) is completely just and perfect as God is.
God bless
Steven

9Marksfan
Jan 5th 2008, 04:44 PM
Yes, obviously: Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility ... 16 and might reconcile us both (direct object, Jew and Gentile) to God (indirect object) in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Which verse do you have in mind? To say that God "poured out his wrath in full on" Christ, sounds like in modern English God "took out all his anger on" Christ. I'd prefer to think of it in terms of 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

I've posted on this a lot in another thread - Rom 5:9 is a good verse, as are Rom 3:25, Rom 8:3, Is 53:10a and Zech 13:7.


We should not forget that the cross was God's idea, God's will (Gethsemane)

Of course!


2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us (direct object) to himself (indirect object) and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world (direct object) to himself (indirect object), not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

God didn't hand his Son over to Pilate and Annas in order to reconcile himself (grammatical direct object) to us (grammatical indirect object) in any sense. It's 100% the other way round.

No - in Rom 5:8, it says that we were God's enemies - NOT that God was our enemy (which is alos true, of course!) - so what happened to make us stop being God's enemies? Christ's death was a propitiation - Rom 3:25 - God sent His Son in love so that His holy justice could be satisfied - we were all children of wrath, but because Christ has exhausted God's wrath on the cross, we can now have peace with God through faith in Him!


Christ's death was addressed to sinners, to persuade sinners, not to buy off his Father.

No - Christ's death was a sin offering to God the Father. We are all dead in trespasses and sins - without thye regenerating work of the Spirit mking us alive in Christ, we would all just mock Christ's death on the cross and fail to understand it - it takes spiritual insight to do so - and only the Spirit of God can give us that.


I think you're saying this too, the restatement is for clarity. If reconciliation was a 2-way street it would be "Christ was reconciling man and God to each other". But he didn't, it wasn't a 2-way street. The idea of a 2-way street can occasionally be touched in verses such as "one mediator between man and God the man Christ Jesus" 1Tim2:5, and this is a useful analogy, but some aspects of the human-mediator analogy inevitably break up when one party (God) is completely just and perfect as God is.
God bless
Steven

Just because Paul speaks of reconciliation in the way he does in 2 Cor 5 doesn't mean that God's holy and just hostility toward sinners didn't have to be dealt with as well - it did and it was!