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KnightwithDignity
Dec 30th 2007, 09:52 PM
Comes up out of the earth.
Has two horns like a lamb.
Speaks like a dragon.
Exercises all the power of the first beast.
Causes the earth and all who dwell in the earth to worship the first beast.
Does these things after the deadly wound of the first beast has been healed.
Does great wonders.
Deceives the earth because of the miracles he can do.
Sets up an image to the first beast.
Causes the world to worship the image to the first beast or face death.
Causes all to receive a mark.
Restricts buying and selling only to those who have the mark/name/number of the beast.

KnightwithDignity
Dec 30th 2007, 09:53 PM
These are the specifics of the second beast.

KnightwithDignity
Dec 30th 2007, 10:10 PM
a beast represents a particular king, or a kingdom/empire as a whole.

a horn represents a particular king, or a kingdom/empire as a whole.

This second beast is a world wide power. A super power.
It causes the world to worship the first beast. This makes religion/worship a major issue.
It has power to do signs and wonders. This involves religion/worship.
It sets up an image to the first beast.
It causes the world to worship the image to the first beast or face death. This makes religion/worship a life or death issue.

It causes all to receive a mark. This is what we call identification.

It has the power to control who buys and sells. This beast has full control over all the world and can control what you buy and sell. Those who dont receive the identification of the beast will not be able to do business.

The identification issue involves the mark, name, and number of the beast.

If you dont get this identification.... you will die.

KnightwithDignity
Dec 30th 2007, 10:29 PM
The issue of not being able to buy or sell is something that will affect every one. It is a life or death issue. And this is a world wide thing. Not just in some countries and not in others. It involves all the world.

This beast is a super power heavy weight. It has the power to control the affairs of all people every where.

It has the technology to achieve this.

Today we are witnessing the beginings of the intergration of a new form of technology into all the important aspects of our every day life. RFID Chips. These are going onto every thing that currently has a barcode.

The chips are also going into all forms of electronic banking. Credit cards. Eftpos cards. Debit cards. And into the new plastic money.

The chips are also going into all forms of id. passports, drivers licenses.

All this is the setting up of systems that the beast can use to control every aspect of your life.

KnightwithDignity
Dec 30th 2007, 10:50 PM
But this is just on of the issues involved regarding the second beast of rev 13


There is another

jeffweeder
Dec 31st 2007, 12:02 AM
The United Natons fits the picture .
(Its so hot over here im dripping all over the keyboard.)

markedward
Dec 31st 2007, 12:19 AM
He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is a man's number. His number is 666.The Mark is...

... required for everyone, lest they face death.
... required for trade.
... put on the right hand or the forehead.
... the name of the beast.
... or the number of his name.
... numberwise, 666.The mark is a name of a man or a number (666) equating to that name. Scripture does not tell us it's an ID chip for an individual, it's a specific man's name (or the number that equals his name). So, following with what Scripture says about it...

The Mark is not...

... an identification chip (unless each and every chip were to have a specific man's name or a number equaling his name on it, which I doubt).
... "Recommendation 666." That's not a person, nor is it a person's name. It is merely a written document that put a person into power. (And no, Javier Solana's name does not equate 666 in Greek or Hebrew.)Go Scripturally, not with coincidences.

KnightwithDignity
Dec 31st 2007, 01:23 AM
The biggest issue concerning the second beast of rev 13 is tied up with worship.

This beast forces the world to worship the first beast. Religion is a big thing for this beast. It is the driving force for it to remain in power. And it has a close relationship with the first beast.

This is something that is not so much talked about.

markedward
Dec 31st 2007, 01:37 AM
I agree, it's not something much talked about... but that doesn't mean the overly-talked about can be connected to anything the eye sees similarities in.

Scripture does not say the "mark" is an ID chip inserted in the skin. It does not say "666" is a recommendation later. It says the mark is a man's name or a number equal to the man's name. It says 666 is the number of that man. Nothing else. To suddenly construe the "mark" into a chip is unsupported by Scripture, and to suddenly construe that the mark is a "man's name" into something like, in the example of Javier Solana, a recommendation letter, is unsupported by Scripture.

People add too much into the words.

quiet dove
Dec 31st 2007, 04:54 AM
For me the issue isnt whether or not the chip is the MOB, but that these chips are a means to spy on every move a person makes. What you buy with a card or chipped plastic money is traceable and you are keepupable with. They can keep up with ya and all you buy, sell, where you go, what you wear, who you call, your internet travels, email, what you had for dinner, how many loads of clothes you wash, and if you fed the dog that day.

So whether or not these chips will actually be the "mark" or not time will tell but the fact is they are something to be concerned about because they invade our lives at every level.

Calebface
Dec 31st 2007, 12:41 PM
but wait .....

when it talks about these two beasts, isn't it after the time the rapture occurs

(forgive if i'm wrong)

but even if the rapture hadn't occured yet why are you worrying about the beasts, if you are a true Christian then you won't have to worry because God already has his plan for you and will have taken care of you

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2007, 01:11 PM
but wait .....

when it talks about these two beasts, isn't it after the time the rapture occurs

(forgive if i'm wrong)

but even if the rapture hadn't occured yet why are you worrying about the beasts, if you are a true Christian then you won't have to worry because God already has his plan for you and will have taken care of you

The rapture takes place when Christ returns;

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The beasts will reign and remain alive until Christ returns;

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go Forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty

Merton
Jan 1st 2008, 01:15 AM
but wait .....

when it talks about these two beasts, isn't it after the time the rapture occurs

(forgive if i'm wrong)

but even if the rapture hadn't occured yet why are you worrying about the beasts, if you are a true Christian then you won't have to worry because God already has his plan for you and will have taken care of you


There is something about Rev.13 which is timeless in its application in this age, even though it must apply fully to a specific time at the end of this age before Christ returns.

We can use it to apply to Hitler or any other despot who satan has given the rulership of a kingdom to.

1. Hitlers devious ways to obtain the throne.

2. His deceivable methods in using the religious for his own purposes while hating their doctrine completely.

3. His betrayal of his supporters, in the night of the long knives, in order to get the cooperation of the army generals.

4. His raising up of the gestapo, and his secret police, his means of personal control over all personell of the realm.

5. His building up of arms while signing peace treaties.

6 His hatred and blame and enslavement with torture and death of all persons who claim to be the people of God but have money that he wants. Rev. ch 9. firstly in his own country.

7. The extension of all of these things into other countries which become his own kingdom.

8. The forcing of his own system of things into all other countries, but he needed to destroy other powerful nations before he could accomplish his aims of fulfilling his thousand year reign.

9 He never made it. Near to his death his aid asked him as to who they should serve in his absence, and he replied, "wait for the man".

and the one thing I forgot--

He had all of the people under his control to swear allegience to him as their fuhrer. (supreme leader, for whom they would die for, in the killing of any who would resist him.)

Merton.

Naphal
Jan 1st 2008, 07:08 AM
This second beast is a world wide power. A super power.

No, that's what the first beast is. The second beast is an individual which Revelation later identifies as the false prophet. He is male and one being, performs miracles in sight of the first beast in order to deceive the masses:



The first beast is a governmental system while the second beast is a person called the false prophet. This is easy to know because the second beast performs miracles in front of the first beast and later in Rev it is said that it is the false prophet which was the one performing those miracles:

The second beast is also called the false prophet in Revelation. We know this because the second beast is the one who performs miracles before the first beast and later Rev. restates this fact but identifies the second beast as the false prophet who is the same one that had performed miracles before the first beast. All the clues are there, we just have to read and take note of them.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that
wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were
cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Here we see that the false prophet performed miracles before the beast in order to deceive people and cause them to worship that same beast.

1: False prophet performs miracles before the beast
2: performs these to deceive people.

And so who was it then that performed miracles before the beast and before the people to deceive them?


Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of
those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to
them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Here we read of the second beast, who performs miracles in the sight of the first beast and performing those miracles in order to deceive the people!

1: Second beast performs miracles before the first beast
2: performs these miracles to deceive the people.

So to sum up what we have found:

1: Second beast, also called the false prophet, performs miracles before the first beast.

2: performs these miracles to deceive the people.

Therefore, the second beast is a person who is called the false prophet, the one responsible for performing miracles designed to deceive people and cause them to worship the first beast.

Acerohombre
Jan 1st 2008, 08:16 PM
Also, cross ref this with the Olivet Discourse. I am using Matt 24.

Within the question concerning the destruction of the Temple, Jesus was asked about signs of his coming and the end of the world. In his reply, Jesus gives three examples of false prophets, each with the world situation growing in intensity and each group with their own characteristics.

1. Many shall come in His name claiming to be Christ.
2. Many false prophets shall rise.
3. False Christs and Prophets with great signs and wonders.


Since Jesus' death and resurrection on this earth we have had many people claiming to be Christ just as mentioned whether it is Jim Jones in Guyana, the Branch Davidians in Texas. And, we have false prophets such as Muhammad, which, IMO, is aptly pointed out as #2. Jesus does not say that they will come in His name.

At the time of Great Tribulation that the world has never seen, a very specific time, there will arise prophets and christs described exactly as the one mentioned in Rev 13. Again, it is specific in it's timing in that it happens after the Abomination of Desolation is set up which I personally see as the setting up of the antichrist to be worshiped in the Temple as God much like the first beast in Rev 13. Could it also be that actual statue described in Rev 13, I don't know but again at this point in the sermon Jesus is specific in saying that even then and at this time in history there will be false prophets and christs that will have the power to perform miracles quite possibly the fire coming down from the sky as mentioned in Rev 13.

brakelite
Jan 2nd 2008, 12:06 PM
Bible symbolism is consistent, because God is consistent and gives us these clues so that there will be no confusion. God told us of these things so we will understand them. You cannot claim a beast represents a kingdom in one verse and then an individual in the next. That is non-sensical and leads to much confusion and misunderstanding.
Be consistent. Either beasts are governments, or an individual. Not both. To be both makes a nonsense of the symbol, and gives us licence to make everything up as we go.
And that was certainly not God's intention. Both beasts are governments, as are the beasts of Daniel 7 and 8, as is the beast of Rev 17. That does not negate the possibility of the second beast of rev 13 being the false prophet. Just as it doesn't negate the possibility of the first beast, also a government power, being the antichrist.

Brakelite

Naphal
Jan 2nd 2008, 11:50 PM
Bible symbolism is consistent, because God is consistent and gives us these clues so that there will be no confusion. God told us of these things so we will understand them. You cannot claim a beast represents a kingdom in one verse and then an individual in the next. That is non-sensical and leads to much confusion and misunderstanding.

I can and so does the bible! The bible uses the concept of a beast for kingdoms AND individuals. You should already know that.


Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.





Be consistent. Either beasts are governments, or an individual. Not both.


The bible says BOTH.




To be both makes a nonsense of the symbol, and gives us licence to make everything up as we go.
And that was certainly not God's intention. Both beasts are governments, as are the beasts of Daniel 7 and 8, as is the beast of Rev 17. That does not negate the possibility of the second beast of rev 13 being the false prophet. Just as it doesn't negate the possibility of the first beast, also a government power, being the antichrist.

Brakelite



No, the second beast is an individual called the false prophet. He is one person. It's all there in Rev. You just argued rather than dealt with the evidence I provided.

danield
Jan 3rd 2008, 04:45 AM
I also do not think Ecclesiastes 3:18 supports that train of thought. we can expand this verse using the New Living translation to show how it would be taken out of text to reason the way Naphal is trying to.




Ecclesiastes 3:16 through 22
16 I also noticed that under the sun there is evil in the courtroom. Yes, even the courts of law are corrupt! 17 I said to myself, “In due season God will judge everyone, both good and bad, for all their deeds.”
18 I also thought about the human condition—how God proves to people that they are like animals. 19 For people and animals share the same fate—both breathe[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=3&version=51#fen-NLT-17354a)] and both must die. So people have no real advantage over the animals. How meaningless! 20 Both go to the same place—they came from dust and they return to dust. 21 For who can prove that the human spirit goes up and the spirit of animals goes down into the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better for people than to be happy in their work. That is why we are here! No one will bring us back from death to enjoy life after we die.



I have never thought of going back and forth between governments and people when referring to the Beast, Dragon, and the False Prophet. I will have to reread Revelations again to see what you mean.

By the way all, this is an interesting thread with some interesting viewpoints.

brakelite
Jan 3rd 2008, 07:35 AM
Naphal, you should know that I was reffering to prophecy. And in psrticular those prophecies of Daniel and Revelation which cover the same eras, and the same powers.

Naphal
Jan 3rd 2008, 07:39 AM
Naphal, you should know that I was reffering to prophecy. And in psrticular those prophecies of Daniel and Revelation which cover the same eras, and the same powers.

It doesnt change that the symbology of a beast in scripture can apply to governments or individuals. In rev 13 we see one of each represented. The second beast is a person known as the false prophet who performs miracles before the first beast which is a governmental system.

Naphal
Jan 3rd 2008, 07:41 AM
I also do not think Ecclesiastes 3:18 supports that train of thought. we can expand this verse using the New Living translation to show how it would be taken out of text to reason the way Naphal is trying to.

People are referred to as beasts. Changing it to animal is the same difference.

Here are more:


Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

brakelite
Jan 3rd 2008, 08:17 AM
So a man comes out of the earth, has two horns and speaks like a dragon? Yet the first beast comes out of the sea, has ten horns and also speaks like a dragon.
One is a man, the other a govt.?
Again, no consistency.
B.

Naphal
Jan 3rd 2008, 08:18 AM
So a man comes out of the earth, has two horns and speaks like a dragon? Yet the first beast comes out of the sea, has ten horns and also speaks like a dragon.
One is a man, the other a govt.?
Again, no consistency.
B.

Don't be childish. Neither beast is literal in description. No matter what, saying the second beast is not an individual contradicts what Revelation says about him.

brakelite
Jan 3rd 2008, 08:38 AM
I didn't say they were literal. My point is that the descriptions, characteristics, and practices of both are so alike in nature, that the relationship between the two is more than coincidental.
The seas represent peoples, nations, tribes and tongues, yes? Rev.17:15. So it stands to reason that the earth is the opposite. An area of relative little or sparce population. The first beast is a predator. It came to power through war. The second beast rose up relatively peacably. The first beasts horns represent powers. They were fully developed and had crowns. Thus they had kings. Thus they were kingdoms. The second beast's horns were like a lambs. Undeveloped, thus were an ideology as opposed to established power. No crowns, therefore no king. Suggestion. A republic? A democracy? If the first beast represents kingly authority in church and state, thus a pope and a king, then might I suggest the second beast is a democratic republic without a pope or a king?
What nation on earth today meeting such a description has the global power to enforce religious worship? A nation closely associated with the papacy, the first beast. A nation
that recently is becoming much more predatory in its character, and is speaking more and more like the dragon?
B.

Firstfruits
Jan 3rd 2008, 12:49 PM
The four beasts:

King James Version Daniel 7

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

Naphal
Jan 3rd 2008, 10:11 PM
I didn't say they were literal. My point is that the descriptions, characteristics, and practices of both are so alike in nature, that the relationship between the two is more than coincidental.

They are not very alike. They look completely different from each other and have different and distinct actions and roles. One is described as having 7 heads which are later said to be mountains....impossible to be a person, not to mention having 10 horns which are kings within those mountains. The second beast is a prophet who is a fake who uses fear and deception to cause worship to the first beast as well as himself. He is described as a singular being unlike the other beast. I do not know how one could think they are similar.



The seas represent peoples, nations, tribes and tongues, yes? Rev.17:15. So it stands to reason that the earth is the opposite.

Opposite is fine...not the same as you began to argue.




The first beasts horns represent powers. They were fully developed and had crowns. Thus they had kings.

No they are not "powers" but are kings. Rev 17 declares this. The horns are ten kings.



Thus they were kingdoms.

Kings normally have kingdoms unless they are in exile. However, the ten horns are ten kings, not ten kingdoms per se'.




The second beast's horns were like a lambs. Undeveloped, thus were an ideology as opposed to established power.

There is nothing that suggest anything being undeveloped. A lambs horns are fully developed as much as any other animals horns are.




No crowns, therefore no king. Suggestion. A republic? A democracy?

Revelation 19:20 identifies the second beast as the false prophet who is a singular person. Speculation therefore is irrelevant and fruitless.




If the first beast represents kingly authority in church and state, thus a pope and a king, then might I suggest the second beast is a democratic republic without a pope or a king?

Sorry but going in this direction of thought is to completely turn away from the scriptures into imagination.

Naphal
Jan 3rd 2008, 10:13 PM
The four beasts:

King James Version Daniel 7

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.


Here we also see the first and second beast of Rev 13. The first beast is the "4th beast" of verse 23, and the second beast of Rev 13 is the 11th horn, a king, that subdues 3 of the ten kings.

Clifton
Jan 3rd 2008, 11:29 PM
...Since Jesus' death and resurrection on this earth we have had many people claiming to be Christ just as mentioned whether it is Jim Jones in Guyana, the Branch Davidians in Texas. ....


They are in the USENET Forums too :(

One who claimed to be Christ wrote me to forget about the Greek of the Scriptures.

Blessings and Happy New Year,
Κλιφτον Ρη Ηοδζης

ross3421
Jan 10th 2008, 05:32 AM
Here we also see the first and second beast of Rev 13. The first beast is the "4th beast" of verse 23, and the second beast of Rev 13 is the 11th horn, a king, that subdues 3 of the ten kings.

I see the first beast encompasses the entire kingdom with yes the second beast the 11th horn out from the fourth beast. I see this horn subdues not 3 of the 10 horns as we see all 10 together when Christ returns but subdues the first three beasts, lion, bear, leopard.


Mark

ross3421
Jan 10th 2008, 10:07 AM
Comes out of the earth. Now I wonít go too deep with this but does this describe Satan himself? Wasnít he condemned to hell when Christ went to the cross?

Hi Mikey,

First I will comment on "comes out of the earth". You are correct that this second beast is Satan i.e Satan incanate in flesh. Hence the term out of the earth gives us the understanding that this beast is a man for it is "man" which came from the earth. Satan will indwell him.

Now I would like to comment on the first beast and "comes up out of the sea". Here we see this beast arising up out of a body of water? No. The sea does represent Hell in which Satan will be cast into prior as seen in chapter 12. When does this occur? I see this battle in heaven happening after the martyred in Revelation are complete and thus defeat the devil and cast him into the abyss. Rev 13 we see him and his kingdom arising out of the abyss and establis itself as THE kingdom upon the earth. A counterfeit.



2. Has 2 horns like a lamb? Who is the lamb? Christ is the lamb. Rev 13:8 says:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Satan wants to be like Christ. He is a liar and comes as an angel of light.


Agree. Let me go deep and let you ponder what the two horns represent. Does the house of David and the two tribes whereby this Lamb is from ring a bell? Note we see the other 10 horns in the first beast, i.e the house of Israel.



Again parabolic language for bringing the gospel. But Satan brings a false gospel. One that sounds like Christís but is not. He brings them to the churches of the world. There will come a time when the only gospel that will be heard is the one preached by Satanís people. The oneís who are marked by him spiritually. And they will be bringing a false gospel.


Will it be a false gospel, or a gospel with a false Christ? What I am saying is that Satan should promote the gospel we read today since he is claiming to be the author not promote some other gospel.


Mark

Firstfruits
Jan 10th 2008, 01:14 PM
[quote=ross3421;1496150]Hi Mikey,

First I will comment on "comes out of the earth". You are correct that this second beast is Satan i.e Satan incanate in flesh. Hence the term out of the earth gives us the understanding that this beast is a man for it is "man" which came from the earth. Satan will indwell him.

Now I would like to comment on the first beast and "comes up out of the sea". Here we see this beast arising up out of a body of water? No. The sea does represent Hell in which Satan will be cast into prior as seen in chapter 12. When does this occur? I see this battle in heaven happening after the martyred in Revelation are complete and thus defeat the devil and cast him into the abyss. Rev 13 we see him and his kingdom arising out of the abyss and establis itself as THE kingdom upon the earth. A counterfeit.



Agree. Let me go deep and let you ponder what the two horns represent. Does the house of David and the two tribes whereby this Lamb is from ring a bell? Note we see the other 10 horns in the first beast, i.e the house of Israel.



Will it be a false gospel, or a gospel with a false Christ? What I am saying is that Satan should promote the gospel we read today since he is claiming to be the author not promote some other gospel.


Mark [/quote

It will be like no religious message ever heard, as he establishes himself as God.

Dan 11:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

2 Thess 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

John146
Jan 10th 2008, 07:11 PM
I just wanted to be clear with my previous post on what I believe about this beast. As I reread my post I didn't really make very clear my beliefs. I believe that the beast is Satan but that he will not take the form of some world wide ruler. He will not be some future Hitler or some future Bush. His rule will be in the local churches. Nowhere does the bible say he takes the form of a human at all. He is sometimes described as a man but that doesn't mean that he will ever be a man. Satan is a spirit as we all know. But it doesn't say he becomes a man.

Remember that the book of Revelation is not wrote in chronological order. We must exercise caution with this. From 1 chapter to the next and many times from 1 verse to the next could be talking about completely different time periods. We must also be careful with these beasts. Are they 2 different beasts altogether? I don't think so. Mainly because they both describe Satan pretty well. But secondly because John saw a vision of the 1st beast and another vision of another beast. In John's eyes they seemed to be different and that's what God wanted him and us to think. These were different viewpoints of the same Satan. God is using different metaphors to describe Satan.

The first beast is not Satan. The beast is differentiated from Satan in this verse:

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? - Rev 13:4

Satan is the dragon that gives power to the beast, but is not the beast. Notice that it says they worshipped the dragon and they worshipped the beast. If the dragon and the beast are the same then wouldn't that be redundant?

ross3421
Jan 10th 2008, 07:24 PM
uote=Mikey0;1496616]I just wanted to be clear with my previous post on what I believe about this beast. As I reread my post I didn't really make very clear my beliefs. I believe that the beast is Satan but that he will not take the form of some world wide ruler. He will not be some future Hitler or some future Bush. His rule will be in the local churches. Nowhere does the bible say he takes the form of a human at all. He is sometimes described as a man but that doesn't mean that he will ever be a man. Satan is a spirit as we all know. But it doesn't say he becomes a man.


God is spirit but became man?

2th 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;2th 2:4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.




Remember that the book of Revelation is not wrote in chronological order. We must exercise caution with this. From 1 chapter to the next and many times from 1 verse to the next could be talking about completely different time periods. We must also be careful with these beasts. Are they 2 different beasts altogether? I don't think so. Mainly because they both describe Satan pretty well. But secondly because John saw a vision of the 1st beast and another vision of another beast. In John's eyes they seemed to be different and that's what God wanted him and us to think. These were different viewpoints of the same Satan. God is using different metaphors to describe Satan.



The first beast is perdition and his kingdom, the second beast is the son of perdition. Both Satan. AKA Father and his kingdom and his son.


Mark

Naphal
Jan 10th 2008, 09:22 PM
[quote=ross3421;1496150]Hi Mikey,

First I will comment on "comes out of the earth". You are correct that this second beast is Satan i.e Satan incanate in flesh. Hence the term out of the earth gives us the understanding that this beast is a man for it is "man" which came from the earth. Satan will indwell him.


Satan was incarnated and created in flesh from the beginning. His Spirit can possess people but he is fully capable of existing upon the earth in his own flesh body as he did when he tempted Christ or when he was walking around in Job's time. People think Satan is ONLY Spirit and forget that he is an angelic being and like all angels he has his own body which is made of flesh (not human flesh).

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2008, 09:24 AM
I just wanted to be clear with my previous post on what I believe about this beast. As I reread my post I didn't really make very clear my beliefs. I believe that the beast is Satan but that he will not take the form of some world wide ruler. He will not be some future Hitler or some future Bush. His rule will be in the local churches. Nowhere does the bible say he takes the form of a human at all. He is sometimes described as a man but that doesn't mean that he will ever be a man. Satan is a spirit as we all know. But it doesn't say he becomes a man.

Remember that the book of Revelation is not wrote in chronological order. We must exercise caution with this. From 1 chapter to the next and many times from 1 verse to the next could be talking about completely different time periods. We must also be careful with these beasts. Are they 2 different beasts altogether? I don't think so. Mainly because they both describe Satan pretty well. But secondly because John saw a vision of the 1st beast and another vision of another beast. In John's eyes they seemed to be different and that's what God wanted him and us to think. These were different viewpoints of the same Satan. God is using different metaphors to describe Satan.



The answer really to this question is both. It will be what looks like the true gospel but isn't. It will sound great what comes out of the congregations. Just what everyone likes to hear. "Jesus loves you." "Christ died for everyone." Leading people astray in their doctrines. He will be a false Christ in the since that he will be ruler within the church. NOT A PHYSICAL PERSON! But a spiritual being (that's what Satan is) ruling over the church.



Sounds interesting. I won't pretend that I know for certain what the 2 horns represent. So that guess is as good as any. You could be right. What draws my attention about the 2 horns is the number 2. Everything in the bible is parabolic in nature so why should numbers be any different? Where do we see the number 2 most often. When Jesus is speaking to his disciples and sending them out with the gospel.

Mar 6:7 And he called [unto him] the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mat 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

Mat 21:1-2 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me.

Mar 26:60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, [yet] found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,

Look at this last verse. Could it be that the number 2 can be used as a false gospel also. Or look a little deeper. 2 false witnesses testifying that Jesus said and meant something that He really didn't. Just like a false Christ or false prophet today will do today in the church. Tell people that Jesus meant something by a particular verse when in reality He meant something completely different. "God said we must be baptized in water to be saved." "God said we must believe to be saved." "God said we must confess Jesus to be saved." "God said he died for every human." Blah, Blah, Blah. How many people today believe 1 or all of these things. False gospels is what is being presented. The bible has some serious things to say about false doctrines. One of which is this:

Gal 1:6-8 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Just a thought anyway.

This scripture confirms that Satan is not the beast or the false prophet;

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire And brimstone, where the beast And the false prophet are, And shall be tormented day And night for ever And ever.

Naphal
Jan 11th 2008, 09:36 AM
This scripture confirms that Satan is not the beast or the false prophet;

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire And brimstone, where the beast And the false prophet are, And shall be tormented day And night for ever And ever.

That's actually not evidence. Not if these things are non literal. I happen to believe Satan will be the false prophet. It's an act or role he will present himself in. When the FP is cast into the lake of fire it simply means Satan cannot use that to deceive people. He will no longer be able to be the Antichrist, call himself Jesus or God and be believed.

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2008, 09:51 AM
That's actually not evidence. Not if these things are non literal. I happen to believe Satan will be the false prophet. It's an act or role he will present himself in. When the FP is cast into the lake of fire it simply means Satan cannot use that to deceive people. He will no longer be able to be the Antichrist, call himself Jesus or God and be believed.

How do you explain the following?

Rev 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, And out of the mouth of the beast, And out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire And brimstone, where the beast And the false prophet are, And shall be tormented day And night for ever And ever.

Naphal
Jan 11th 2008, 09:54 AM
How do you explain the following?

Rev 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, And out of the mouth of the beast, And out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire And brimstone, where the beast And the false prophet are, And shall be tormented day And night for ever And ever.

I already did. It's non literal. It's like saying unclean spirits come out of the mouth of the president, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and the Terminator. Well we know that Arnold and the terminator is really the same person.

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2008, 10:42 AM
I already did. It's non literal. It's like saying unclean spirits come out of the mouth of the president, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and the Terminator. Well we know that Arnold and the terminator is really the same person.

With regards to the following when satan is bound for a thousand years and cast into the bottomless pit what happens to the beast and the false prophet?

Rev 20:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Are you saying that Satan gave himself power?

With regards to the following is the man man of sin not a man?

2 Thess 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Naphal
Jan 11th 2008, 10:52 AM
With regards to the following when satan is bound for a thousand years and cast into the bottomless pit what happens to the beast and the false prophet?


The beast here is the first beast of Rev 13 which isn't a literal thing but a government. That is destroyed but that doesn't mean millions of people are cast into the fire even tho they were part of it.

Once you understand that the fp and the beast are non literal concepts then you can understand how Satan could be one of them and his own being survive to be locked in the pit while they are destroyed.




(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2)Rev 20:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2)Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2)Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Are you saying that Satan gave himself power?
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2)

I don't think that is an odd thing for him to do but in this case the answer is no because Satan is not the first beast but is the second beast.

Firstfruits
Jan 11th 2008, 11:18 AM
The beast here is the first beast of Rev 13 which isn't a literal thing but a government. That is destroyed but that doesn't mean millions of people are cast into the fire even tho they were part of it.

Once you understand that the fp and the beast are non literal concepts then you can understand how Satan could be one of them and his own being survive to be locked in the pit while they are destroyed.




I don't think that is an odd thing for him to do but in this case the answer is no because Satan is not the first beast but is the second beast.

Rev 22:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Do you believe that the lake of fire is literal?

Will the following be done?

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is what Christ revealed to John that must be done, did Christ not mean what he said?

ross3421
Jan 11th 2008, 06:52 PM
Satan is the devil.
Satan is the first beast
Satan is the second beast

John146
Jan 11th 2008, 07:22 PM
Satan is the devil.
Satan is the first beast
Satan is the second beast

So, you're saying Revelation 13:4 could read like this:

4And they worshipped Satan which gave power unto Satan: and they worshipped Satan, saying, Who is like unto Satan? who is able to make war with him?

That is nonsensical. How would Satan give power unto himself? The dragon is Satan, but the beast is not. Satan gives power to the beast.

ross3421
Jan 12th 2008, 01:22 AM
So, you're saying Revelation 13:4 could read like this:

4And they worshipped Satan which gave power unto Satan: and they worshipped Satan, saying, Who is like unto Satan? who is able to make war with him?

That is nonsensical. How would Satan give power unto himself? The dragon is Satan, but the beast is not. Satan gives power to the beast.


So, you're saying Revelation 13:4 could read like this:

4And they worshipped Satan which gave power unto Satan: and they worshipped Satan, saying, Who is like unto Satan? who is able to make war with him?

That is nonsensical. How would Satan give power unto himself? The dragon is Satan, but the beast is not. Satan gives power to the beast.

The world thinks it's nonsensical that God is Christ and vice versa......

God gave power to Christ but yet is God as well...........

So is not the son of perdition likened unto his father, Satan?

Is not the son of Satan, Satan?


Do you understand?



Mark

Firstfruits
Jan 13th 2008, 11:36 AM
The world thinks it's nonsensical that God is Christ and vice versa......

God gave power to Christ but yet is God as well...........

So is not the son of perdition likened unto his father, Satan?

Is not the son of Satan, Satan?


Do you understand?



Mark

Are you saying that the son of perdition is not actually satan himself, although he has the same power as was given the first beast by satan?

With regards to the following scripture, with the dragon and the first beast already being worshiped, who is the other beast that come after them?

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

John146
Jan 13th 2008, 09:30 PM
The world thinks it's nonsensical that God is Christ and vice versa......

God gave power to Christ but yet is God as well...........

So is not the son of perdition likened unto his father, Satan?

Is not the son of Satan, Satan?


Do you understand?



Mark

No, I don't understand your view at all. If Satan was both man and spirit as Jesus is both man and God then maybe I could consider your view as a possibility. But Satan is not a man, so I don't think your theory is valid.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire where Satan and Satan are?

Eric

ross3421
Jan 14th 2008, 01:40 AM
No, I don't understand your view at all. If Satan was both man and spirit as Jesus is both man and God then maybe I could consider your view as a possibility. But Satan is not a man, so I don't think your theory is valid.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire where Satan and Satan are?

Eric

Does not Satan control the AC? How do you think he controls him? He indwells him. So yes I am saying Satan can be a spirit but also can indwell flesh and be Satan and man......

Mark

ross3421
Jan 14th 2008, 01:42 AM
[quote=Firstfruits;1499275]Are you saying that the son of perdition is not actually satan himself, although he has the same power as was given the first beast by satan?


Iam saying Satan is the son of pedition. If he is the son of Satan he is also Satan....



With regards to the following scripture, with the dragon and the first beast already being worshiped, who is the other beast that come after them?

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


Trininty / Unholy trininty - Satan / First Beast / Second Beast


Mark

ross3421
Jan 14th 2008, 01:47 AM
[quote=Mikey0;1499264]I have no time so i will make this straight to the point. After a little more thought, what about the dragon being Satan and the beast represents his kingdom or his rule over the churches?


Yes, I agree. The first beast represents his kingdom. The 7 heads represent the church which has aligned with him and parrallels the other 7 of God's kingdom the 7 angels (heads) of the 7 churches.

I really see the first beast as the "spirit" part of the unholy trininty.



I think It would make more since then beast=satan and dragon=satan.

Both could still be true....

Mark

Firstfruits
Jan 14th 2008, 09:07 AM
[quote]


Iam saying Satan is the son of pedition. If he is the son of Satan he is also Satan....




Trininty / Unholy trininty - Satan / First Beast / Second Beast


Mark

So just as the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in unity they are three separate persons?

Therefore the beast , the false prophet and Satan is therefore literal, as seen in the lake of fire.

Naphal
Jan 14th 2008, 01:27 PM
Rev 22:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Do you believe that the lake of fire is literal?

Will the following be done?

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is what Christ revealed to John that must be done, did Christ not mean what he said?


I don't think you are understanding what I've been saying so I'll just stop answering all these repeated questions.

Firstfruits
Jan 14th 2008, 02:55 PM
I don't think you are understanding what I've been saying so I'll just stop answering all these repeated questions.

Jesus said these things will happen, why then are these things not literal?

quiet dove
Jan 14th 2008, 04:17 PM
Jesus said these things will happen, why then are these things not literal?

I personally think these things are literal. But I also think that the first and second beast are two different people who are influenced or possessed, what ever you want to call it, follow Satan, worship Satan, however you want to say it. So there is Satan/dragon, first beast, second beast.

The kingdom of darkness still exist. I kinda see the AC as the one who takes Satan up on his offer, where Jesus turned him down. Jesus was tempted by Satan and told him to stick it, the AC will say yes, and be empowered by the dragon, just as Revelation says.

Just because Satan wants to imitate the Trinity does not mean that he actually can, he will try to appear to have done so in trying to appear to be god, but we all know how it ends and that he is a fraud, and liar. Satan can not become a man, he may influence or indwell one, but he does not become flesh and blood as Jesus came. Jesus did not just indwell an already existing person, we all know that, but that is all Satan can do, is indwell a man that is already here and willing to do Satan's work.

Firstfruits
Jan 14th 2008, 04:28 PM
I personally think these things are literal. But I also think that the first and second beast are two different people who are influenced or possessed, what ever you want to call it, follow Satan, worship Satan, however you want to say it. So there is Satan/dragon, first beast, second beast.

The kingdom of darkness still exist. I kinda see the AC as the one who takes Satan up on his offer, where Jesus turned him down. Jesus was tempted by Satan and told him to stick it, the AC will say yes, and be empowered by the dragon, just as Revelation says.

Just because Satan wants to imitate the Trinity does not mean that he actually can, he will try to appear to have done so in trying to appear to be god, but we all know how it ends and that he is a fraud, and liar. Satan can not become a man, he may influence or indwell one, but he does not become flesh and blood as Jesus came. Jesus did not just indwell an already existing person, we all know that, but that is all Satan can do, is indwell a man that is already here and willing to do Satan's work.

Thanks Quiet dove,

I agree with your post, I just cannot understand why it can be said that it is not literal, hopefuly we will get an answer.

John146
Jan 14th 2008, 06:31 PM
Does not Satan control the AC? How do you think he controls him? He indwells him. So yes I am saying Satan can be a spirit but also can indwell flesh and be Satan and man......

Mark

Remember, you earlier said that Satan is the beast. I didn't know how else to interpet that except that you were saying there is no difference, as if the beast was just another name for Satan like the devil or the dragon. Satan indwelled Judas Iscariot, but that didn't mean he was Judas Iscariot. In the same way, you're saying Satan will indwell the beast, but that wouldn't mean Satan was the beast. I don't even agree with that view, either, since the beast is a kingdom. Satan's kingdom.

ross3421
Jan 15th 2008, 01:25 AM
Satan indwelled Judas Iscariot, but that didn't mean he was Judas Iscariot. In the same way, you're saying Satan will indwell the beast, but that wouldn't mean Satan was the beast. I don't even agree with that view, either, since the beast is a kingdom. Satan's kingdom.


Who is his father? Would not the son of Satan be Satan?

2th 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2th 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Satan
First Beast - (kingdom / spirit)
Second Beast - son of perdition

Concerning Satan and Judas whether he himself entered into Judas or as Johnn states "into his heart" would be a good thread. I would be inclined to think the latter and Judas was sure not given ALL Satan's power in which we see one yet to come and the things he is able. another interesting note is that John makes sure to note that Judas is Simon's son and thus not Satan's.


Lu 22:3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Joh 13:2And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;


Mark

John146
Jan 15th 2008, 10:50 PM
Who is his father? Would not the son of Satan be Satan?

2th 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2th 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Satan
First Beast - (kingdom / spirit)
Second Beast - son of perdition

No. The son of perdition comes after the working of Satan. Just like the beast gets power from Satan. Same kind of thing. Satan doesn't give himself power. That doesn't make sense. Anyway, this has become kind of a fruitless discussion, so you believe whatever you want and we can agree to disagree.

Eric

Firstfruits
Jan 16th 2008, 11:40 AM
Who is his father? Would not the son of Satan be Satan?

2th 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2th 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Satan
First Beast - (kingdom / spirit)
Second Beast - son of perdition

Concerning Satan and Judas whether he himself entered into Judas or as Johnn states "into his heart" would be a good thread. I would be inclined to think the latter and Judas was sure not given ALL Satan's power in which we see one yet to come and the things he is able. another interesting note is that John makes sure to note that Judas is Simon's son and thus not Satan's.


Lu 22:3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Joh 13:2And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;


Mark

There is one important thing to note here and that is that no matter how we look at it Satan is not a man even though he may work through men, he is not a man.

2th 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1 Jn 2:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Where, may I ask, according to scripture does it say that the antichrist is Satan?