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A820djd
Dec 31st 2007, 07:13 PM
How do we know if all the verses we read are true? How do we know that some of these chapters may have been written by false prophets or not?

Gentile
Dec 31st 2007, 07:16 PM
Because Thomas Nelson said so.. ;)

bjones
Dec 31st 2007, 07:16 PM
Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice".

Very little evidence is required by sheep.
No amount of evidence will suffice a goat.

A820djd
Dec 31st 2007, 07:18 PM
Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice".

Very little evidence is required by sheep.
No amount of evidence will suffice a goat.



Uhm, thats not much evidence either way mate...

bjones
Dec 31st 2007, 07:20 PM
What evidence would you accept?

A820djd
Dec 31st 2007, 07:34 PM
What evidence would you accept?


Old testament scripture saying there's gunna be a "new testament" and I was curious, does the old testament mention anything of Jesus being the lord and savior?

Joe King
Dec 31st 2007, 07:37 PM
The bible makes total sense to me. It is the living word of God. I believe that he wouldn't let it be corrupted.

punk
Dec 31st 2007, 07:40 PM
How do we know if all the verses we read are true? How do we know that some of these chapters may have been written by false prophets or not?

We don't.

It is a matter of faith.

bjones
Dec 31st 2007, 07:41 PM
Old testament scripture saying there's gunna be a "new testament" and I was curious, does the old testament mention anything of Jesus being the lord and savior?

Great question. Do you accept prophetic statements in veiled language?

bjones
Dec 31st 2007, 07:43 PM
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

RevLogos
Dec 31st 2007, 07:51 PM
How do we know if all the verses we read are true? How do we know that some of these chapters may have been written by false prophets or not?

The answer could be long so I'd like to clarify the question. Are you asking if the original manuscripts have been well preserved and accurate? Or are you asking about the process of canonizing the scriptures? Or perhaps about the secular historical accuracy?

I could discuss either. In short the scriptures have been very well preserved from the earliest manuscripts, and Bible translations are done from the original manuscripts; they are not translations of translations. Other than some grammatical and cultural differences, Godís Word has been remarkably preserved and translated over the years.

Historically, archeology has also proven the bible to be accurate when it comes to the people and places mentioned in the New Testament. This includes extra-biblical references to Jesus, and his empty tomb. I could give some details here too.

Regarding the canonization process, the current 27 books of the New Testament were formally confirmed and canonized in the Synod of Carthage in 397 AD. This was done to prevent the inclusion of false texts and teachings which may be what you refer to.

markedward
Dec 31st 2007, 07:53 PM
The OT gave a few hints on when the promised Messiah would come, the "messenger of the [new] covenant." Daniel is a big help on the timing of the Messiah. Then Elijah shows up, followed by the Messiah, followed by the destruction of that which stood for the old covenant. The Gospels are simply the documentation of Elijah's preparation and the Messiah's ministry, and everything after that serves as documentation of the ministry the Messiah promised His disciples they would do.

Sometimes it doesn't help to put that separation between the Old and New Testaments. If you read it as one whole, does it all make sense? I'm inclined to say yes.

If you doubt even some Scripture, when will the doubt end? You'll just continually doubt this verse, then that verse, then this book, then that book, until you doubt the entire Bible.

A820djd
Dec 31st 2007, 08:20 PM
The OT gave a few hints on when the promised Messiah would come, the "messenger of the [new] covenant." Daniel is a big help on the timing of the Messiah. Then Elijah shows up, followed by the Messiah, followed by the destruction of that which stood for the old covenant. The Gospels are simply the documentation of Elijah's preparation and the Messiah's ministry, and everything after that serves as documentation of the ministry the Messiah promised His disciples they would do.

Sometimes it doesn't help to put that separation between the Old and New Testaments. If you read it as one whole, does it all make sense? I'm inclined to say yes.

If you doubt even some Scripture, when will the doubt end? You'll just continually doubt this verse, then that verse, then this book, then that book, until you doubt the entire Bible.


Well think about it if we didn't have doubts some times in our life, that means we just search harder. If the devil is the father of all lies, then how come he's no able to tamper majorly with the bible or something huge like that?

bjones
Dec 31st 2007, 08:46 PM
I have shown you a clear prophecy on the new testament. The author of Hebrews makes an excellent case for it.

There are many more which are veiled.
Promises made to Adam Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, and the prophets all teach he will be savior and Lord.

There are many more which are hidden and only revealed by the light of Christ. In this arena almost every chapter of the Bible speaks directly to Christ's ministry.

You can see some of this over in the Symbology threads.

But it all depends upon what you will accept as evidence.

I once proposed a solution a solution to a problem. The response I got was that the solution was too difficult and it wouldn't work because it was too easy. It is obvious from the response that the individual did not want the problem solved.

One of the greatest testimonies that there is, is that of the church. Millions of Christians who have known Christ, have testified that the Bible is his word.

So "My sheep hear my voice" really is very good evidence. Those whose lives have been changed by Christ and who have known him intimately identify the words as his.

And there is no greater evidence to be sought than to know him.

A820djd
Dec 31st 2007, 08:49 PM
Sorry for stirring up problems, it's just an honest question, how would you react to a non-believer asking the same thing? Now you're prepared and I have another tool in my arsenal.

Athanasius
Dec 31st 2007, 08:57 PM
Sorry for stirring up problems, it's just an honest question, how would you react to a non-believer asking the same thing? Now you're prepared and I have another tool in my arsenal.

Well you know, 2 Timothy 3:16 means all the verses in the book are true. .
Unless that verse was false, then all the other one's come under suspicion :P

But anyway, some good scripture was referenced.
It's the oddest thing. . . Sometimes you can have all the evidence in the world

And you still have to have faith ;)

bjones
Dec 31st 2007, 09:21 PM
Sorry for stirring up problems, it's just an honest question, how would you react to a non-believer asking the same thing? Now you're prepared and I have another tool in my arsenal.

I don't think apologies are necessary. Thanks for giving us a chance to chat about it.

sheina maidle
Dec 31st 2007, 09:28 PM
If you doubt even some Scripture, when will the doubt end? You'll just continually doubt this verse, then that verse, then this book, then that book, until you doubt the entire Bible.
I agree

Doubting the accuracy of God's Word began in the Garden of Eden when the serpent said to Eve "Yea hath God said" (Genesis 3:1)


2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


The Bible: God's Perfect Word. 2 Timothy 3:13-17 contains a synopsis of what the Bible claims about itself as to its perfect inspiration:

(1) The Bible is set apart from all other books (v. 15). Here the Scriptures are called holy. This means set apart, different. The Bible cannot in any way be compared with other books. It is holy.

(2) The Bible came from God (v. 16). This verse says that the Scriptures are God-breathed. Though the Bible was written by men, it came from God.

(3) The Bible came from God in its entirety (v. 16). "All scripture is given by God..."

(4) The Bible came from God in its smallest detail (v. 15). The word for Scripture in this verse is gramma. This means a letter, bespeaking the fact that even the smallest details of the Bible are from God and are perfect.

(5) The Bible has an all-encompassing theme: Salvation in Jesus Christ (v. 15). The Bible is not just a body of unrelated religious writings on various subjects. It is one Book which was planned and given by God for the purpose of teaching man the way of salvation in Jesus Christ (Luke 24:44-45; John 1:45; John 5:39; Ephesians 3:11).

(6) The Bible can protect Christians from error (v. 13-15). If the Bible contains myths, mistakes, and untrue claims, it certainly is not a book which can give protection from false teachings!

(7) The Bible is able to make Christians complete and mature (v. 17).


Way of Life EncyclopediaI believe the Bible is accurate because God says so--as the above statements explain.

ServantofTruth
Dec 31st 2007, 09:28 PM
Scottizzle - as with most of the topics you start, you do an excellent job of puting the non believers' side of things across. Why don't you put in your starting post - this will strengthen us all, what if a non believer said ....? Happy new year my friend and brother. Love today and i hope always, Servant of Truth. :pp

A820djd
Dec 31st 2007, 11:01 PM
Scottizzle - as with most of the topics you start, you do an excellent job of puting the non believers' side of things across. Why don't you put in your starting post - this will strengthen us all, what if a non believer said ....? Happy new year my friend and brother. Love today and i hope always, Servant of Truth. :pp


Cause you have to sit and think, these are questions you're going to be questioned with and how will you answer?

Brother Mark
Jan 1st 2008, 01:15 AM
Cause you have to sit and think, these are questions you're going to be questioned with and how will you answer?

Often, we forget that we can answer those questions with testimony. I am an engineer by trade and education. When I first got saved I used logic to witness to my co-workers and tried to convince them the word was true. Now if someone were to ask me that question, I would tell them what God did in my heart. I would tell them how he used the bible to change me and how radical that change was. I would express to them the hope he placed within me and the miracles he has worked inside of me. I might tell them of how he delivered me from sin that I could never conquer before.

A testimony is a very powerful thing. People have argued logic with me, but my testimony is often met with silence as the enemy is overcome with it. There are very few things as powerful in witnessing as a personal testimony. How many folks can say "The bible told me to do this, and look what happened"?

When someone is blinded by the enemy, one can focus on overcoming the enemy in their life on a spiritual level. One way to silence the enemy is with the testimony. One of my favorite verses...

Rev 12:11
11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
NASU

Another one of my favorite verses I often think about when giving my testimony is 1 John 1:1-3. It illustrates so well how to witness to others.

1 John 1:1-3

1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life — 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us — 3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
NASU

What we see and experience we testify about. Three things will help overcome the power of the enemy that is blinding those we wish to win to the Lord. The power of our testimony, the blood of the Lamb, and our willingness to give up our life in order to live His life.

Blessings,

Mark

MMC
Jan 1st 2008, 01:32 AM
Often, we forget that we can answer those questions with testimony. I am an engineer by trade and education. When I first got saved I used logic to witness to my co-workers and tried to convince them the word was true. Now if someone were to ask me that question, I would tell them what God did in my heart. I would tell them how he used the bible to change me and how radical that change was. I would express to them the hope he placed within me and the miracles he has worked inside of me. I might tell them of how he delivered me from sin that I could never conquer before.

A testimony is a very powerful thing. People have argued logic with me, but my testimony is often met with silence as the enemy is overcome with it. There are very few things as powerful in witnessing as a personal testimony. How many folks can say "The bible told me to do this, and look what happened"?

When someone is blinded by the enemy, one can focus on overcoming the enemy in their life on a spiritual level. One way to silence the enemy is with the testimony. One of my favorite verses...

Rev 12:11
11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
NASU

Blessings,

Mark

Excellent post, Brother Mark. Reason, logic, debate, biblical knowledge...none of these things are even half as effective as a transformed life when sharing the gospel message. A changed life cannot be disputed, denied, or argued with. It is unassuming, self-effacing, has no agenda, and communicates honesty, humility, love and God's glory, not ours. Powerful stuff, brother.

dan
Jan 1st 2008, 06:52 AM
Cause you have to sit and think, these are questions you're going to be questioned with and how will you answer?

Prophecy is the only proof that the Bible has any basis in fact. The more Prophecy comes true, the more proof exists that God is real and the Bible is His Truth.

Steven3
Jan 1st 2008, 07:36 AM
Hi Scottizzle :)
Cause you have to sit and think, these are questions you're going to be questioned with and how will you answer?You want to answer someone? It depends if the questioner is a Christian, a muslim or a western agnostic/atheist. But all three questioners can be answered to some extent by a knowledge of the basics such as in F.F. Bruce's 'The NT documents, are they reliable'. Not online (sadly) but currently on Ebay for five bucks.

Sorry, there's no short cut or magic pill to this knowledge, to answer someone on a complicated subject like this first we have to know at least a little of what we're talking about. That requires a good old fashioned paper book. ;)
God bless
Steven

OldChurchGuy
Jan 1st 2008, 01:35 PM
How do we know if all the verses we read are true? How do we know that some of these chapters may have been written by false prophets or not?

Having read all the posts to date, I understand this was more of a question to generate discussion and was very well done.

As I see it, the bottom line is that one does not "know" if all the verses are true. One can have faith that they are true, but be careful not to confuse faith as irrefutable fact.

It is my understanding the earliest complete manuscripts are about 300 years after the time of Jesus.

An interesting book to read about copying the manuscripts over the centuries prior to the printing press is by Bart Ehrman and is entitled "Misquoting Jesus". He makes a very strong case that some of the passages in the New Testament were added after the fact.

I am not saying the man is absolutely correct as I am sure there are those who disagree with his conclusions. On the other hand, it is a throught provoking book and, to me anyway, worth reading.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

RevLogos
Jan 1st 2008, 06:36 PM
How do I know the Bible is accurate? Because I have been changed by the Holy Spirit. I am not the same man I was before Christ became my savior.

If The Word did not change people, it would all just be words and stories no matter how well preserved. It would never have survived as it did.

The advice above to witness using testimonials is very good. People who do not want to believe will always find fault with the evidence no matter how good it is. But this is also the most difficult method as you must bear your soul to those who believe you are delusional and irrational.

Nevertheless I have looked into the historical accuracy. A very good site I have found that gives an overview of the historical evidence is called "The Journey" by a former atheist Randall Niles. It is here:

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/

Look in the topics "Is The Bible True". This has been for me a very valuable resource and I recommend it. Start with the first article and each progresses to the next. To those with any concerns about the historical accuracy and reliability of the Word, Randall provides a very powerful message well backed up with external references.

With Christ,

-- Rev

RevLogos
Jan 1st 2008, 06:48 PM
One of the most powerful things I learned was this.

There is extra-Biblical evidence Jesus' tomb was found empty. Jewish records of the period confirm this. But the Jews assumed it was a hoax; that the apostles removed and hid the body.

But all of the authors of the New Testament were murdered for their beliefs, save one who was exiled. No one dies protecting a hoax.

In Christ,

-- Rev

Brother Mark
Jan 1st 2008, 07:01 PM
One of the most powerful things I learned was this.

There is extra-Biblical evidence Jesus' tomb was found empty. Jewish records of the period confirm this. But the Jews assumed it was a hoax; that the apostles removed and hid the body.

But all of the authors of the New Testament were murdered for their beliefs, save one who was exiled. No one dies protecting a hoax.

In Christ,

-- Rev

The testimony of the apostles speaks loudly. There is a lot of evidence out there for the one that wants to do the research. Many of Josh McDowell's books are excellent. But a changed life speaks volumes. God has touched me, what more evidence to do I need? Yet for the one who is seeking, other evidence can be a wonderful faith builder.