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brakelite
Jan 2nd 2008, 12:48 PM
I started this thread elsewhere but coz of some un-Christlike attitudes the thread got sent to a penal colony.:(
I thought the topic too important to allow it to be hijacked, so with mod's concession am posting again, hoping for some intelligent discussion.

How Important is Truth?
I am the Way, the Truth,, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father except by Me.

40 odd years ago there was a church in I think the city of Indianapolis called the Peoples Temple. The minister there was a gifted and charismatic preacher, hugely popular, endorsed and recommended by some very important and influential people including congressmen and senators and J Edgar Hoover himself (of FBI fame).
The people of his congregation were ordinary people like you and me, searching for a spiritual home in which to worship and bring their families.
One such person presented to the minister one day some concerns over a particular doctrinal matter. It appeared to the parishioner that the minister’s teaching differed somewhat from the Bible and the church member was asking for an explanation. The minister’s response was something along these lines: “Don’t worry about that, what is really important is people. Here in our church we believe that loving one another is more important than a few doctrines. Love is what we are about here.”
The minister’s name was the Rev. Jim Jones. Most of the 900 members of his congregation died in Guyana after a mass suicide from drinking poisoned cool-ade.
Folks, truth is important.

Eleven years ago I shared my faith with my brother-in-law. For 3 hours we poured over the scriptures, which brought answers to his every objection to my faith. Not long after he went overseas with his family chasing a dream. He is still there, broke, in huge debt, unable and unwilling to come home, and sadly, going blind.
Folks, truth is important.

Ten years ago an uncle and aunty of mine came to stay with us for a while. They witnessed our lifestyle, heard our prayers, saw what God had done for and in us. Within a few weeks of leaving my uncle had a heart attack and died.
Folks, truth is important.

Eight years ago I was discussing doctrinal differences with my Christian employer. He agreed that my and my churches’ understanding of scripture made sense and was biblically consistent. Two weeks later he had a heart attack right in front of me, and despite over two hours of CPR , he died.
Folks, truth is important.

Two years ago I was invited by a neighbour to participate in a series of Bible studies at their home, based on the well known and popular ‘40 days of purpose’ by Rick Warren. Early on I noticed some teachings of Warren’s with which I disagreed. I prepared a bible study and shared this with my hosts on another evening. He and his wife both agreed with my view, but asked that I not bring it up with the other participants, saying “what is important is people, let us just love one another”. Sound familiar? One month after the end of the series, my neighbour had a heart attack, and died.
Folks, truth is important.

Apart from perhaps the Jim Jones saga, I am not suggesting in any way that those deaths were a result of rejecting truth. The point I wish to stress in this thread is two-fold. One, we must embrace truth to it’s absolute fullest while we can-for we do not know what tomorrow may bring. Not only in respect to our mortality here on earth, but also in respect to the soon coming of our Saviour to bring an end to this sin-sick world. Second point is by way of a challenge. How important to you is truth? Have you received a love of the truth, such a love that falsehood has become offensive to you? Such a love that a lie becomes an abomination? Do you love truth as an eternal principle, or do you love that which you believe to be true. There is a huge difference between loving TRUTH, as a principle of life, and loving the doctrine, practice, or tradition you currently believe in, thinking it to be true. Because unless you love TRUTH, your doctrine which you hold so dear could very well be a lie. ( 2Thess. 2:10-12.)
This is a salvation issue folks. The doctrines I was discussing with those now deceased were important. They are hotly debated on these forums every day. Let me state unequivocally, that if the weight of scriptural evidence is not in your favour with respect to any particular doctrine, you are wrong not to at least investigate the possibility that you could be in error. And if on concluding your investigation the weight of evidence still stands against you, then you are wrong if you do not accept and adopt a different stance.
British philosopher W.K.Clifford once said,” It is always wrong, everywhere and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.”
Folks, truth is important. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. You reject truth, you reject the author and foundation of truth. Unless you are sincerely and honestly willing to give up any current belief if the scriptures so direct, then you do not love truth, and the very real danger there is, as Paul warns in 2 Thess., you will accept a lie, even the antichrist himself.
How important is Truth?
It is the Cornerstone of the church. It is the Foundation upon which rests everything we build. It is the Rock which is immoveable and supports our faith. It is the Vine through which we are fed. It is the Bread which nourishes us and sanctifies us.
TRUTH. Embrace it. Love it. Cleave to it.
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Regards
Brakelite.

Ruth2
Jan 2nd 2008, 02:52 PM
Amen and let all God's people say Amen!

I have lost a lot of friends, family, and currently do not have a church because I will not compromise the truth. It seems far too few people love the truth more than they love their lives, friends, and the things of this world.

Things go along fine for a while but the moment I take a stand against their precious man contrived doctrines that we are warned about in Col 2:8, they stomp off. Over the years I have tried hard to take the stand in love so as not to offend but it seems that most people's love for whatever always seems to trump God's precious truth.

I wrote a piece a long time ago called "It really is all about love." In it I tried to show that love for God and His truth far outweighed any doctrine of man or the time wasted in trying to determine when the rapture would occur or any other issue that divides the body of Christ rather than simply embracing His truth and fighting the good fight and to preach the gospel message in season and out of season.

Bravo dear brother! Fight the good fight. No man or woman knows the day or hour of their death so it is imperative that we be found pleasing Him and not pleasing ourselves.

God bless you!

Teke
Jan 2nd 2008, 03:40 PM
"Seeking Truth Requires Internal Courage

Yes, conversation is possible even with those persons, religious or otherwise, who believe that they have a monopoly on the truth.These conversations would be difficult, but the potential reward great.


This is so because serious conversation always provides the opportunity to enter into another’s world, and to glimpse from that other perspective the one truth to which we all seek to respond.

The difficulty of such conversations is that when a person is convinced that they, and they alone, possess the truth, they effectively isolate themselves. This insulating layer of self-certainty cuts them off from real conversation and the potential which it always holds out.

However, there is an antidote, a way forward, and that way forward is courage. Any person who truly believes that they have a monopoly on the truth can be challenged to find the courage to share that truth with another, in respectful conversation. In that process of conversation the possibility of mutual engagement is always present. It is that mutual engagement that holds the promise of people meeting as human beings who share in a desire to find the truth that we all seek.

My optimism that such conversation has rich potential is based upon my conviction that the struggle for the truth, toward which all people are drawn, is not a matter of possessing a correct idea. The struggle is, rather, to find the courage to yield ourselves to the encounter of truth as a living reality, a living reality that is beyond us but lays claim upon us. It is in the embrace of that living truth that we discover in ourselves and all creation. That is the truth that invites us to find our life in all its infinite recesses."
Episcopal Bishop Mark SisK

Ruth2
Jan 2nd 2008, 06:58 PM
"Seeking Truth Requires Internal Courage

Yes, conversation is possible even with those persons, religious or otherwise, who believe that they have a monopoly on the truth.These conversations would be difficult, but the potential reward great.


This is so because serious conversation always provides the opportunity to enter into another’s world, and to glimpse from that other perspective the one truth to which we all seek to respond.

The difficulty of such conversations is that when a person is convinced that they, and they alone, possess the truth, they effectively isolate themselves. This insulating layer of self-certainty cuts them off from real conversation and the potential which it always holds out.

However, there is an antidote, a way forward, and that way forward is courage. Any person who truly believes that they have a monopoly on the truth can be challenged to find the courage to share that truth with another, in respectful conversation. In that process of conversation the possibility of mutual engagement is always present. It is that mutual engagement that holds the promise of people meeting as human beings who share in a desire to find the truth that we all seek.

My optimism that such conversation has rich potential is based upon my conviction that the struggle for the truth, toward which all people are drawn, is not a matter of possessing a correct idea. The struggle is, rather, to find the courage to yield ourselves to the encounter of truth as a living reality, a living reality that is beyond us but lays claim upon us. It is in the embrace of that living truth that we discover in ourselves and all creation. That is the truth that invites us to find our life in all its infinite recesses."
Episcopal Bishop Mark SisK

There are truths. I am not sure what you mean by the statement you made about people having a monopoly on the truth. I am sure I must be incorrect in the following assumption, but I am going to state it anyway just for clarification but your rhetoric is very similar to the post modernist thinking that all truth is personal and that there are no absolutes.

With that aside - if we are discussing truth as defined in the scripture - then there are no monopolies on that truth - it is free for everyone to embrace and share and there is debate because the truth does not change. As for 'truths' that divide the body of Christ of true believers - then your statement would be applicable.

walked
Jan 2nd 2008, 07:03 PM
The teachings of Christ Jesus our King, all of His teachings point to our loving God and our fellow man are to override all established or institutionalized doctrines created by man from scripture in the bible... in other words Jesus was all about people folks, that is the truth.

Jesus corrected amended several teachings of Moses ie: Moses taught and lead the faithful in his day to believe it was lawful to divorce, Jesus amended this and taught that it is not legal to divorce.

Moses taught a principle of an eye for an eye, Jesus amended this and taught us if we get sued for our cloak, then offer our hat too and, if we get struck on the cheek we should turn an offer the other cheek.

Christ continually broke the sabbath, His reasoning for doing this was made clear by Him "the sabbath was made for people folks and not people for the sabbath"

Our truth is found in Christ and Christ taught that our love of God and our love of our fellow man is to override all other teachings in the bible.
And He taught that anyone not obedient to us loving God and our fellow man above all other things, then He will deny knowing that person to the Father in heaven.
Examining Christ life walk on earth teaches that He was all about people and not about reinforcing established laws and doctrines found in the bible.
To Christ all the total sum of these doctrines were not worth a single creatures soul....
Christ is our truth and not established doctrines found in the bible.

He judged and saw into mens hearts and motives and did not judge men to see if they were observing doctrines found in scripture in the bible.

All scripture in the bible is good and profitable to a soul, but taken as a whole and not picked and choose from to fit any situation that arises, taken as a whole the bible teaches that loving God AND our fellow man is the evidence that you are His and He is yours.

God the Father and Jesus the Christ are not all about us observing established doctrines found in scriptures in the bible folks!

Christ didn't come to die on a cross to fulfill scripture in the bible He came to earth to die on a cross for people folks!

Christ did not charge His disciples to go into all the earth to proclaim established doctrines found in scriptures in the bible folks, He charged them to proclaim the good news of His truth!... His truth is found in what He taught and, He taught that above all the laws in scriptures in the bible we are to obey this one first and foremost above all other laws found in scripture in the bible:
"love God and love your fellow man" that means (People) folks, that is what Christ taught and what Christ was and still is all about.
Christ said he must go about His fathers business.
God the Father proclaims that Christ is what He desires us to be renewed and transformed into (His son, Christ likeness) is what God the Father wants us to be transformed into folks and, not transformed into scripture keeping self righteous creatures.

God the Father and Jesus the Christ were and still are all about people folks!

Ruth2
Jan 2nd 2008, 07:43 PM
The teachings of Christ Jesus our King, all of His teachings point to our loving God and our fellow man are to override all established or institutionalized doctrines created by man from scripture in the bible... in other words Jesus was all about people folks, that is the truth.

The whole message of the scriptures is about God, not people. It is about an amazing God with love that surpasses human understanding and patience that is beyond our own imagination. It is about a loving God who even gave His only son for His creation. The fact that we are the recipients of His love and patience is secondary to the whole message. Mankind, and the religion of humanism has tried to reduce the scriptures to being about mankind when in reality it is about God and how incredible He is and how patient He has been and how far He has gone to redeem His creation from their own self centered ugliness. We will be worshiping Him for eternity thanking Him for an incredible gift none of us deserves.


Jesus corrected amended several teachings of Moses ie: Moses taught and lead the faithful in his day to believe it was lawful to divorce, Jesus amended this and taught that it is not legal to divorce.
Actually Jesus said that divorce was allowed for adultery. Adultery destroys trust. Trust is the foundation of love. God uses adultery in its destruction on the relationship throughout the scriptures.


Moses taught a principle of an eye for an eye, Jesus amended this and taught us if we get sued for our cloak, then offer our hat too and, if we get struck on the cheek we should turn an offer the other cheek.

Christ continually broke the sabbath, His reasoning for doing this was made clear by Him "the sabbath was made for people folks and not people for the sabbath"

Our truth is found in Christ and Christ taught that our love of God and our love of our fellow man is to override all other teachings in the bible.
And He taught that anyone not obedient to us loving God and our fellow man above all other things, then He will deny knowing that person to the Father in heaven.
Examining Christ life walk on earth teaches that He was all about people and not about reinforcing established laws and doctrines found in the bible.
To Christ all the total sum of these doctrines were not worth a single creatures soul....
Christ is our truth and not established doctrines found in the bible.

He judged and saw into mens hearts and motives and did not judge men to see if they were observing doctrines found in scripture in the bible.

All scripture in the bible is good and profitable to a soul, but taken as a whole and not picked and choose from to fit any situation that arises, taken as a whole the bible teaches that loving God AND our fellow man is the evidence that you are His and He is yours.

God the Father and Jesus the Christ are not all about us observing established doctrines found in scriptures in the bible folks!

God the Father and Jesus the Christ were and still are all about people folks!


The Old testament was God showing mankind what happens when men do it their way. He gave them 2000 years of their religion, rulers, and rituals and none of it made them any better people in the end. God stood by them because He is a God of His word and promised He would.

He said, here are my rules and you are welcome to try to follow them on your own. Of course, they failed miserably but tried hard to make up as many rules as they could to try to toe the line.

Then, He entered the picture again in the form of a man - Jesus. He showed us His ways once again. His way is in the 10 commandments - it is just the interpretation that became tainted. The 10 commandments, if you read them through the eyes of Love are all about loving God and others above self.

The Bible is about God, not man. When we get it confused and think it is about man then, IMHO, we have our focus backwards. It is about a loving God regarding His creation and an ungrateful creation thinking everything is about them.
IMHO of course.

walked
Jan 2nd 2008, 08:05 PM
Ruth2 (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=17182)

The bible is Gods revealed will for His creation initially presented to the Hebrew nation so that nation could be a light to the other nations and, straighten a path for the worlds King and savior.

We are to be about loving God and our fellow man, just as Christ was.
I emphasize loving our fellow man heavily here because I perceived the author of this thread emphasizing that scriptures in the bible can be taken and used to contradict this command to love our fellow man as a major and overriding priority in or duty and our relationship to God.

The bible is Gods revealed will for His creation. Its not about man and I'm sorry if your perceived me presenting it that way but, it is about Gods relationship to man and a revealed way for man to relate to God.

God desires us to be transformed into His Sons likeness.
Christ was about doing His Fathers business.
God so loved the world (man) that He gave His only begotten Son.
Loving man and the rest of creation is what God is all about and what Christ is all about and, what we should be all about too since God the Father wants us to be transformed into His Sons likeness.

Christ didn't die on the cross for God, He didn't die on the cross for the bible or to fulfill prophecy He died on a cross for people, (us and our fellow man)

Christ taught that loving God and our fellow man is above all other laws and us keep just this one will enable us to keep all other laws in scripture by keeping just this one.

Ruth2
Jan 2nd 2008, 08:24 PM
Ruth2 (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=17182)

The bible is Gods revealed will for His creation presented to the Hebrew nation so that nation could bless the other nations.The only way that we are blessed through Israel is because our Lord came from that nation. Otherwise, they are simply an example for us to see how God is loyal and patient even when He is betrayed.
Actually, I liken the journey of Israel with God as the identical pattern each Christian has. He rescues us, we love Him and worship Him, then we get bored and self involved again and forget and drift away - get ourselves in trouble again - call out to Him and He rescues us again. That is the story of Israel and that is the typical story of the Christian walk.


The bible is Gods revealed will for his creation. Its not about man and I'm sorry if your perceived me presenting it that way but, it is about Gods relationship to man and a revealed way for man to relate to God.

God desires us to be transformed into His Sons likeless.
Christ didn't die on the cross for God, He didn't die on the cross for the bible or to fulfill prophecy He died on a cross for people, for man.

We are to be about loving God and our fellow man, just as Christ was.
I emphasize loving our fellow man heavily here because I perceived the author of this thread emphasizing that scriptures in the bible can be taken and used to contradict this.

Christ taught that loving God and our fellow man is above all other laws and us keep just this one will enable us to keep all the laws in scripture.Thank you for the clarification. I am confused as to how you perceived what you did in the OP. I was unable to locate anything in my reading of it that would bear witness to that perception.

Actually, I believe that Jesus did ultimately die because of who He is - perfect love - not because we deserved it or that God wasn't perfectly capable of simply wiping out mankind and starting over again.

I hope that makes sense.
I think we are pretty much on the same page but I am having a knee jerk reaction to the type of thinking that seems to permeate the planet these days even if that is not how you intended it - so please forgive me.

RoadWarrior
Jan 2nd 2008, 08:30 PM
..I thought the topic too important to allow it to be hijacked, so with mod's concession am posting again, hoping for some intelligent discussion.

How Important is Truth?
I am the Way, the Truth,, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father except by Me.
...
How important is Truth?
It is the Cornerstone of the church. It is the Foundation upon which rests everything we build. It is the Rock which is immoveable and supports our faith. It is the Vine through which we are fed. It is the Bread which nourishes us and sanctifies us.
TRUTH. Embrace it. Love it. Cleave to it.
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Regards
Brakelite.

Putting your quotes into their proper addresses:

Speaking to the Pharisees:
Jn 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." NKJV

Spoken to Thomas, in private conversation with the Disciples:
Jn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. NKJV

Truth is very important to me. In my youth I realized that I could deal with any problems as long as I knew the truth about them. It was when I didn't know what was real, what was true, that I was confounded in trying to resolve problems.

Maybe one of the most important parts of the John 8 quote for me, was realizing the "abide in My word" part. That is how we can know the truth. That is what we have the Bible for, to know His word,

In what direction would you like to take this conversation?

walked
Jan 2nd 2008, 08:40 PM
The only way that we are blessed through Israel is because our Lord came from that nation. Otherwise, they are simply an example for us to see how God is loyal and patient even when He is betrayed.
Actually, I liken the journey of Israel with God as the identical pattern each Christian has. He rescues us, we love Him and worship Him, then we get bored and self involved again and forget and drift away - get ourselves in trouble again - call out to Him and He rescues us again. That is the story of Israel and that is the typical story of the Christian walk.

Thank you for the clarification. I am confused as to how you perceived what you did in the OP. I was unable to locate anything in my reading of it that would bear witness to that perception.

Actually, I believe that Jesus did ultimately die because of who He is - perfect love - not because we deserved it or that God wasn't perfectly capable of simply wiping out mankind and starting over again.

I hope that makes sense.
I think we are pretty much on the same page but I am having a knee jerk reaction to the type of thinking that seems to permeate the planet these days even if that is not how you intended it - so please forgive me.

No need to say you're sorry
I'm not anti bible I'm just anti pick n chose scripture in the bible to fit any given situation, scripture in the bible IMO should be taken as whole and by looking at the bible this way its been revealed to me anyway that loving God and our fellow man is the one overriding priority in my relationship to God and my fellow man even if it seems to go against some established doctrines created by men from scriptures taken out of the bible to fit any imagined situation they see that may arise.....that is the reason doctrines were created by men and then institutionalized to keep things in the order to fit their perceptions of God and His creation.

I have a doctrine too but, it evolves as God reveals more and more of Himself to me, my knowledge of Him evolves so my doctrine evolves along with it.

RoadWarrior
Jan 2nd 2008, 09:00 PM
...loving God and our fellow man is the one overriding priority in my relationship to God and my fellow man ...

I have a doctrine too but, it evolves as God reveals more and more of Himself to me, my knowledge of Him evolves so my doctrine evolves along with it.

Mt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
NKJV

Hi Walked,

I think you are in pretty safe territory to let this be your foundation. If we love one another, I think we will surely practice the 1 Corinthians 13 chapter.

Early in my walk with the Lord, I found this verse and it became my foundation:

Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NKJV

What amazed me was that it could be a commandment. Until that point, I thought love was a feeling, or something you "fell into" when the right person came along... How could love be commanded?

Then I read 1 Corinthians 13, and I saw how love could be a commandment. It is about behavior, and how we treat each other.

RobbieP
Jan 2nd 2008, 10:03 PM
I think the issue of Truth has come about because the concept of love has become distorted. I actually had to change churches because Truth had become whatever the folks wanted in the name of grace and love of the brethren.
Ex: (and there are many)
I have been asked to disregard my concern of offending the congregation in the name of love for a sister in Christ who wanted to do a certain thing in music that was simply not doctrinal. It was something that was wrong by doctrinal standards but because I was on the team with this sister I was asked to disregard the possibility of offending others.....
Love is not ignoring a sin or disregarding the offense of others. I have had so many people preach the TRUTH to me in LOVE....and I would not have learned the TRUTH if they had been afraid to speak it in fear of not showing me love.
Truth does matter and love should not be sacrificed to share truth...And I don't think Truth should be sacrificed in the name of love...there is always a way to speak truth in love.....
But I see Truth being replaced with love in cases where it results in lying,deceit and respecting of persons.

We have taken the Christlike definition of love but applied it in a worldly manner ...In the name of 'love for others ', I have heard...don't tell the girls to be modest,don't teach the children about hell, don't come across too strong about reading the Word daily....don't force Bible study on them...stay with milk....This is all in the name of love and showing grace to folks while they learn nothing about what God wants of them. Through this board we hear of troubled marriages and other situations that are answered through the doctrines within the word and love...

Similar to parents today who think showing love for a child means trusting and running them around instead of teaching them right from wrong. This thinking has invaded our churches.

I know the intent within this string is not to disregard doctrine for love....but I wanted to explain why I am so passionate about Truth..

I think the whole book was written so we would know both...to separate them on either side results in confusion and luke-warm Christians who sway too and fro on whatever doctrine they hear because they don't stand on the truth. There are gray areas in life but some things God makes very clear..those areas should be taught to all....in LOVE....

God bless! I hope I didn't offend anybody...it's a 'soap box' of mine:)

Teke
Jan 2nd 2008, 11:38 PM
There are truths. I am not sure what you mean by the statement you made about people having a monopoly on the truth. I am sure I must be incorrect in the following assumption, but I am going to state it anyway just for clarification but your rhetoric is very similar to the post modernist thinking that all truth is personal and that there are no absolutes.

With that aside - if we are discussing truth as defined in the scripture - then there are no monopolies on that truth - it is free for everyone to embrace and share and there is debate because the truth does not change. As for 'truths' that divide the body of Christ of true believers - then your statement would be applicable.

Odd how you centered on "monopoly" when I was going for 'courage' with the article. :hmm:

walked
Jan 3rd 2008, 12:00 AM
I think the issue of Truth has come about because the concept of love has become distorted. I actually had to change churches because Truth had become whatever the folks wanted in the name of grace and love of the brethren.
Ex: (and there are many)
I have been asked to disregard my concern of offending the congregation in the name of love for a sister in Christ who wanted to do a certain thing in music that was simply not doctrinal. It was something that was wrong by doctrinal standards but because I was on the team with this sister I was asked to disregard the possibility of offending others.....
Love is not ignoring a sin or disregarding the offense of others. I have had so many people preach the TRUTH to me in LOVE....and I would not have learned the TRUTH if they had been afraid to speak it in fear of not showing me love.
Truth does matter and love should not be sacrificed to share truth...And I don't think Truth should be sacrificed in the name of love...there is always a way to speak truth in love.....
But I see Truth being replaced with love in cases where it results in lying,deceit and respecting of persons.

We have taken the Christlike definition of love but applied it in a worldly manner ...In the name of 'love for others ', I have heard...don't tell the girls to be modest,don't teach the children about hell, don't come across too strong about reading the Word daily....don't force Bible study on them...stay with milk....This is all in the name of love and showing grace to folks while they learn nothing about what God wants of them. Through this board we hear of troubled marriages and other situations that are answered through the doctrines within the word and love...

Similar to parents today who think showing love for a child means trusting and running them around instead of teaching them right from wrong. This thinking has invaded our churches.

I know the intent within this string is not to disregard doctrine for love....but I wanted to explain why I am so passionate about Truth..

I think the whole book was written so we would know both...to separate them on either side results in confusion and luke-warm Christians who sway too and fro on whatever doctrine they hear because they don't stand on the truth. There are gray areas in life but some things God makes very clear..those areas should be taught to all....in LOVE....

God bless! I hope I didn't offend anybody...it's a 'soap box' of mine:)

I understand what you are saying..please remember that the love of God comes before the love of our fellows as taught by Christ and, Christ taught that the evidence of our love of God is obedience to Him so, if there is evidence in anyones daily life that they do not obey God then they don't love God and if they don't love God, then they can't possibly love their fellow man in the definition of love as taught by Christ.

I say what we might say is legal or illegal according to obedience to Him, like the dressing not so modestly should be traced back to the root motive of the person dressing any certain way and none of us are qualified no matter what any of us think, none of us are qualified to judge anothers heart or motives, only God and the said person is qualified to do that..
If a motive is rooted in pride and not humility or modesty then it IMO is sin and illegal in accordance with obedience to God and, evidence that love isn't given to God but towards self.
My point being is that we should look at the heart's motives and not the actions or surface appearances, as Christ looked at mens hearts and judged them and never judge anyone from surface appearances nor did He judge if they were inline with established doctrines, creeds or dogma's institutionalized by men.
It was not legal to laybor in the field on a sabbath but, when Christ disciples laybored in a field so they may be fed on a sabbath, Jesus proclaimed it was not a sin because their motive was to sustain their lives, health and strength and not a selfish motive rooted in pride.

Christ judged mens hearts and motives and didn't judge them using scripture, doctrines, creeds and dogma's established by scripture from the bible and institutionalized by men.
Our heavenly Father desires us to be renewed and transformed into His Sons likeness... So my desire and goal is to be exactly like Christ in every way until I am perfected by Gods grace, mercy and long suffering patience.
Since I can not examine another mans heart or motives then I will not judge my fellows at all according to dress, diet, observances, life style or behavior.
I can only examine my own motives and ask God to search my heart to reveal any sin in me.

All things are legal for Christ's servants but not all things are profitable...
I will be at peace and leave it to the King of kings to judge me and my fellows, I will suffer and be content with all to grow side by side and for it to rain on both until the day of righteous judgment.... I do not carry this to extreme or fanatical limits, I will offer advice or possible correction when I see a situation that is not profitable to my fellows but, I will not judge/pronounce any sin being in anyone of my fellows, it is not my place, my place is to first mind my business by being obedient to God and by his mercy and grace produce evidence of my love of Him and then secondly to suffer for and to love my fellows no matter if they might have sin in them or not... We battle powers n principalities of spiritual realms and we do not battle against flesh n blood, I will practice judgment in the spiritual realm as God enables me and I will not practice judgment on this temporal realm with flesh n blood creatures where God has not enable me to.

ravi4u2
Jan 3rd 2008, 12:44 AM
Christ Jesus is the Truth! Whoever the Son sets free is free indeed! Freedom is not found in the mastery of the Bible. The masterful understanding is good but it does not produce freedom. True freedom lies in the relationship we have with the Son.

walked
Jan 3rd 2008, 12:48 AM
Christ Jesus is the Truth! Whoever the Son sets free is free indeed! Freedom is not found in the mastery of the Bible. The masterful understanding is good but it does not produce freedom. True freedom lies in the relationship we have with the Son.

Amen! :pp :pp :pp :pp

RobbieP
Jan 3rd 2008, 02:46 AM
I think we are on the same page...I would never judge the kids in Sunday school for their dress but if they are new Christians and have been living in the world they need help learning the scripture...learning right from wrong in some areas...the world has really distorted things....badly....

it is the thinking that we should not teach that concerns me..the not judging is very much understood...but how will they ever learn if nobody teaches...I was totally foreign to the modesty thing...not wanting another to stumble beause of my dress.....until I was saved...I use to think it was their problem not mine...then I understood better when somebody taught me what the bible says..part of my love for my fellow man is to help them not stumble whether through my dress, my talk, my attitude...........that is truly all I am trying to say....We can't all assume folks know what the Word says ...........and long term we are helping them and others to teach them ...with Love....

walked
Jan 3rd 2008, 03:33 AM
Hi again RobbieP (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=24930)

I'm sorry, I didn't think we were on different pages at all
I know I come off as fanatical on certain points but, I'm really not, I just get excited at times and, me trying to present one point from several different perspectives with out coming off as redundant make me look kinda like a zealot too.

God bless you.

brakelite
Jan 3rd 2008, 07:51 AM
I think you misunderstand me. The kind of love was a sentimental 'feeling' and was not based upon truth. Doctrine, true doctrine, is essential to true relationships. It is only by embracing truth, that we can embrace it's author. That same Truth, is also Love.
But to take it further, it is even more than doctrine. The principle of truth enters into every aspect of our lives. In honesty in particular. It is dishonest to claim you love someone but hide from them true doctrine.
Brakelite.

brakelite
Jan 3rd 2008, 08:11 AM
Putting your quotes into their proper addresses:

Speaking to the Pharisees:
Jn 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." NKJV

Spoken to Thomas, in private conversation with the Disciples:
Jn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. NKJV

Truth is very important to me. In my youth I realized that I could deal with any problems as long as I knew the truth about them. It was when I didn't know what was real, what was true, that I was confounded in trying to resolve problems.

Maybe one of the most important parts of the John 8 quote for me, was realizing the "abide in My word" part. That is how we can know the truth. That is what we have the Bible for, to know His word,

In what direction would you like to take this conversation?

In my experience there have been many occasions where true teachings have been presented but tradition, inconvenience, embarrasment, sentimentality, and all in the presumed name of 'love', have inhibited and at times totally shut out truth.
IMHO receiving a love for truth as a principle in the life is essential to understanding revealed truth in the word. Otherwise deception is a real and present danger.
Brakelite

RoadWarrior
Jan 3rd 2008, 03:25 PM
In my experience there have been many occasions where true teachings have been presented but tradition, inconvenience, embarrasment, sentimentality, and all in the presumed name of 'love', have inhibited and at times totally shut out truth.
IMHO receiving a love for truth as a principle in the life is essential to understanding revealed truth in the word. Otherwise deception is a real and present danger.
Brakelite

I completely agree with this, Brakelite. I have that love of truth, and abhorence of false teachings, brought about by man's modification of true doctrine. When I first came to Christ, I hated the word doctrine because I could not trust what people told me was doctrine. I spent a lot of time reading the Bible, marking the bits that "spoke" to me. I was very eager for the day when every page was marked. That gave me the foundation I needed, and the Holy Spirit was then free to "bring things to my remembrance" because I had read them at least once.

Having that love for truth, and reading the Bible, however was only the starting point. As I grew in wisdom, I realized more than once that I was holding on to an old teaching. Sometimes it was painful to scrape away the residue of those things, but afterwards it was peaceful. Knowing the truth does in fact bring freedom!

brakelite
Jan 3rd 2008, 05:56 PM
Having that love for truth, and reading the Bible, however was only the starting point. As I grew in wisdom, I realized more than once that I was holding on to an old teaching. Sometimes it was painful to scrape away the residue of those things, but afterwards it was peaceful. Knowing the truth does in fact bring freedom!

Amen to that. Many of us who are raised in the church take for granted that what we hear each day from the pulpit is true. Our grandparents attended this church, our uncles and aunties and cousins are here, our parents are here. Family members wont let us down will they? It seldom occurs to us that they could be grossly deceived and in error. If they trust the pastor/teacher/priest, why shouldn't we?
If we however have a true passion and desire to follow the Lamb wherever He goes, He will, if necessary, take us away from that environment, or even allow our faith to lapse until such a time that He can reach us without the clouds of deception and error that assails so much of what today is purported to be Christianity.
Regards
Brakelite