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fightingfalcon
Jan 4th 2008, 08:40 PM
First of all I want to let everyone know I am not registered to drop a link and leave, I just finished writing an article, actually 2 articles on the sabbath and wanted your opinions.

The second and latest is about the Sabbath, feast days and the law nailed to the cross.
http://www.ebibleanswers.com/blog/let-no-man-judge-you-sabbath-days/

I want mostly feedback on this article... I would like the opinion of mostly sunday-keepers, have I done a good job of presenting it. What are arguments you would still use after reading the WHOLE article?

I really want your feedback, of course I know i'll get some feedback on the site but thought I would see what you guys say. I realize the article is good size but if some of you could read it and let me know your thoughts i'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 4th 2008, 10:01 PM
I have started to read your article, but will have to finish it later.

What i am getting out of it so far is interesting, and i'd like to discuss it later.


Shalom,
Tanja

Kahtar
Jan 4th 2008, 10:10 PM
I'll look at it and get back with you.

fightingfalcon
Jan 4th 2008, 10:11 PM
I have started to read your article, but will have to finish it later.

What i am getting out of it so far is interesting, and i'd like to discuss it later.


Shalom,
Tanja

Exactly what I am looking for... look forward to that.

Kahtar
Jan 5th 2008, 03:34 AM
I have read your article in it's entirety, and have found that I agree with your main thrust regarding the seventh day. There are a few points that I do not entirely go along with, and a few suggestions.

Overall, I find your understanding of the two laws and of the seventh day sabbath to be quite good. You have done a good bit of study and work putting this together.
One thing I did NOT see anywhere in your study is the fact that we ALL have sinned, that is, broken those eternal commandments of God, and thus we are all already guilty of them all, regardless how well we try to obey them now, and that when we are judged, it will be found that we indeed are guilty of the whole law of God. And death will result. However, the free gift of the death of Christ in our place will, if we accept it now in this life, satisfy the law, and His death will take the place of our death, thereby setting us free from death's curse. Or we can suffer our own death. The choice is ours. But, regardless how much we try, we simply CANNOT EARN our way into heaven. So, should we keep the law? Absolutely! Should we do it in order to be deemed 'good enough' to enter heaven? A foolish and vain venture. We have already broken the law. Having broken it, we cannot cover it up by trying harder and being good. Only the blood of Christ, that is, His death on the cross, can 'cover it'.

About the Feasts
You assert that the Feasts have been fulfilled, which is true, partially, and that they have been done away with, which is true to an extent. However, consider this:
They are called 'Feasts of the Lord', as opposed to 'feasts of the Jews'.
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, [Concerning] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, [even] these [are] my feasts.
2Ch 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate [it] to him, [and] to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This [is an ordinance] for ever to Israel.
Ezr 3:5 And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
As we know, the feasts were prophetic, speaking of the coming and work of Christ, and were indeed fulfilled by Him. But I would submit to you that they are not yet done being fulfilled.
They pointed, and point, to the historical event of the Passover, the yearly harvests, and God dwelling with the Israelites in the wilderness.
They pointed to the Lamb of God Who was sacrificed, and became the Firstfruits of them that believe, to His birth and tabernacling with man on earth in the form of a man, and of His Kingship, and the Atonement that He wrought for us.
Some at least also point forward to a time yet to come, when the wedding is come, and the groom comes and takes away his bride to His father's house, and the marriage feast of the Lamb, of the final judgment and atonement, and of His return to earth to set up His kingdom and once again dwell on earth with men, as reigning King.
They were indeed shadows of things to come, but not all has come yet. I would encourage you to do an indepth study of those shadows. They are there, after all, for us to learn from.

We will keep sabbath in heaven
And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD
One of the strongest arguments for the Sabbath is the fact that we will be keeping it in heaven -
apparently we will be keeping the new moons as well, which is included in your statements regarding the Mosaic law which was done away with and nailed to the cross. Hmmmm. Along this line, also look at Zechariah 14 -
Zechariah 14:16-18 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (17) And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

About the Shadows
You have stated in your study that before sin, there could be no shadows. I disagree, because even before sin, it was known of God that man would sin. The seven days of creation are themselves shadows, including the seventh day. Of what? Several things, one being Christ Himself.
Consider this:
In the beginning you were made, but sin was found in you, and you were filled with darkness and chaos. But the Holy Spirit hovered over you, and nudged you, and soon, the light of the gospel was presented to you, which you beheld, and the light of truth and salvation was created within you.
But, your carnality remained. Thus God divided the light within you from the darkness that remained within you.
And you were reborn, spiritually, and in spirit you were raised up and are now seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, but your flesh remains below. Thus, a division, a firmament, was formed within you, separating that which is holy and righteous and lifted up within you from that which is lowly and corrupt, dead and buried.
And God raised up within you a solid foundation, and caused life to sprout within you, bearing good seed, and good fruit.
And the Holy Spirit wrote upon your heart the law of God, to rule your walk both in the light and in the darkness, a light to lighten your path.
And God caused greater forms of life to form within you, not only those heavenly things, but caused even your own soul to bring forth new life, and as you share the gospel with others, that new life is formed, and it multiplies itself, for those you bring to life bring others to life.
And eventually, you will finally be formed into the very likeness of Christ Himself. And then, His work in you will be finished, and He, and you, shall find rest, in that day with no darkness and no end.

The shadows of the days of creation not only speak of you yourself, and the creative work God has wrought in you, but it also speaks of Christ.
The world without Christ is dark and void, but Christ is the light of the world. And it is He who separates the darkness from the light, the sheep from the goats, the saved from the unsaved.
He entered the waters of death, and was raised up again in new life.
In His is life, and life more abundantly. He planted the seed of truth, and that seed sprouts forth into new life, bearing seed and fruit. He was the firstfruits. He is the corn that is crushed, the bread of life, and the Harvester.
It is He who lightens the day, and the night, and who establishes the times and seasons, and rules over the day and the night.
He is the dove and the eagle, the whale and the fishes, he is the lamb, the bullock, the lion of Judah. He is the Second Man, and He is the Rest.

You can also, if you dig, find a correlation between the seven days of creation, the seven feasts, the seven furnishings of the tabernacle, the seven patriarchs of Genesis, seven aspects of the exodus from Egypt, the seven letters and seven churches of Revelation, and the seven millenia of man on earth. These all tie together, and each of the seven of each speak of the same precepts.
Example: Day one, light is created and darkness separated. Feast one separated the Israelites, and us, from the curse of death, the first furnishing is the altar of sacrifice, which separated them from their sin, and our Sacrifice separates us from sin.
Day two was the dividing of the waters, feast two was the dividing of the leaven, the second aspect of the exodus was the dividing of the waters of the Red Sea, the second furnishing is the brazen laver in which the water separated them from the filth of their hands.
Day three was the raising of the land and vegetation, the third feast is the raising up of the firstfruits, the third aspect of the exodus is the provision of manna, the third furnishing is the table of shewbread and fruit of the vine.
Etc. You can study out the rest of it. It will facinate you.

About the Priesthood
You have stated that the priesthood is done away with, and you are correct, to an extent. However, consider this:
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Notice it says 'changed', not 'done away'. So how was it changed?
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
We are now the priests of God. If you are prepared to do a really comprehensive and indepth study on the priesthood of the OT, and compare it to what we as NT saints are commanded, you will find that every single detail of the priesthood has it's counterpart in the NT.
If you would like to see a 'brief' study on this, you can check it out here: http://www.gleanings.cprministries.net. I am still in the process of developing certain portions of it, but there is enough there to keep you studying for a good while.

About the Law of God
What you have alluded to regarding the law of God, as opposed to the law of Moses, I agree with for the most part. But there are certain things found in the law of Moses that are also seen prior to Moses.
Obviously, the seventh day sabbath was instituted in the very beginning, and concieved before that. And the commandment about murder can be seen in Cain's actions. We can also see the concept of sacrificial atonement, with both Adam and Abel, for the skins Adam was covered with required the death of innocent creatures, undoubtedly sheep, to cover his nakedness, and that same Sacrifice to which that pointed now covers our 'nakedness', and of course Abel made a sacrifice, which he learned from.....where? Adam, of course, who also would have taught it to Cain, to whom God said, Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
We see the concept of sin here, which is the breaking of God's law, and which Cain apparently was supposed to already know, as in 'doest well',
We see also the idea of clean and unclean animals as Noah brought the animals into the ark, seven each of the clean, and two of the unclean, the clean being good to eat, and the unclean being unhealthy to eat.

About the Sacrifice
You have stated that the laws of sacrifice have been done away with. I would submit to you that they have not been done away with, but changed. We still trust in the sacrifice for our salvation, but the One sacrificed has changed. We still lay upon Him all our sin, just as the priests laid their hands upon the head of the sheep to transfer their guilt to it. We are still sprinkled with the Blood of Atonement, but that blood is the blood of the True Sacrifice now, instead of the blood of bulls and goats and sheep.
We still offer up sacrifices to God, the sacrifice of praise, and the sacrifice of our own 'self', which is our reasonable service.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
Php 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
Php 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
Psalms 51:17
(17) The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

About the Attitude
There are a number of places that you have inserted your attitude toward those who disagree with you. Let me ask you this. What is your purpose in writing this article? Is it simply to gain approval of those who already agree with you? For those, they will probably not see a problem with your expressions of contempt.
Have your written it in hopes of convincing others of what you deem to be truth? If so, you must know that they at the start do not see things as you see them. How shall you convince them of anything if you offend them? Would it not be better to use terms that are not condescending, condemning, accusing, etc.? The expressed attitude thing really takes away from your whole work.

Kahtar
Jan 5th 2008, 03:40 AM
Oh yeah. I forgot to mention this:
Your comparison of Deut. 21:26 to Col 2:14 was an outstanding piece of work. I had not noticed that obvious reference before. Very good!

Kahtar
Jan 5th 2008, 04:43 AM
Sorry. Thought of couple more things:
Re: the feasts:you say they are done away with, and no longer should be observed. So let me ask you this. Do you celebrate Christmas or Easter? If so, why? If you do, you would probably say to recognize and celebrate the the birth, and the death and resurrection of Christ. But why should you do that, seeing that those things have already been fulfilled and done away?
Passover today is the God instituded time of recognition and celebration of Christ's death and resurrection. The Feast of Tabernacles is the God instrituted celebration of the birth of Christ,(and is the actual time of His birth), God taberacling with man (among other things). Do you see what I mean? If we should not celebrate Passover or Tabernacles because they have been fulfilled, why change the dates and celebrate them?
Re: the Seventh day sabbath: What is your concept of observing the sabbath? Going to church? Worshipping and praising God? Studying the Word and fellowshipping with the saints?
There is no such command in God's law to do those things. His law says 'remember the sabbath', and 'keep the sabbath holy'. How does one remember it and keep it holy?
It is a 'day of rest'. Do you rest? How do you do that?
In your estimation, is it not possible to rest and keep holy the sabbath, and then worship and fellowship on Sunday? Or how about keeping every day holy, and resting?

Steven3
Jan 5th 2008, 05:08 AM
Hi FF :)
I would like the opinion of mostly sunday-keepersIs there such a thing as a Sunday-keeper? I know that back in the 1970s the "Lord's Day Observance Society" in the UK used to use somewhat uncritically OT Sabbath (Saturday) verses in their futile efforts to prevent Sunday shop-opening. But how typical is that of actual churches?

Okay, anyway:




In our previous article Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday? (http://www.ebibleanswers.com/blog/the-sabbath-saturday-or-sunday/) we discussed what the bible really has to say about the sabbathI didn't go back and read it, I assume everyone knows the Sabbath was Saturday.
Colossians 2:14 says:
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;Christians take this verse and apply it to the ten commandment law, they use it to say that the law of God was nailed to the cross and we are no longer obligated to keep the sabbath… the rest of the ten commandment law is assumed by these same Christians(atleast most of them) to still be bindingYou appear to be operating under a misunderstanding. I know of no Sunday worshipper who believes that 1 of the 10 commandments has been dropped. I certainly don't. Instead the idea is that all 10 commandments have been upgraded from the Law of Moses to the Law of Christ.
but the sabbath according to them is done away with. Okay, please erase this idea from your mind :). On the contrary, the Sabbath has been expanded to fill 365 days a year and the Rest to come. NB. bits of the Law preexisted the Law, such as no pork for Noah, the Sabbath may perhaps also have been known to Noah, but that doesn't mean it is a bit of the law which Christ didn't fulfill and release us from. This "Law" vs "10 Commandments" distinction, is bogus as NT reference to the 10 commandments as "the Law" demonstrates.




Colossians 2:16 says
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath daysNotice these keywords are all lumped together as if they fit togetherYes well they do fit together, because they were the Jewish Christians' hangups that were causing friction at Collossae. What this verse means is that people who have this hangup (e.g. you) shouldn't be judging people who don't (e.g. me) because they might meet on a Tuesday, or whenever, anymore than someone who has a hangup about pork or alcohol should be judging those who don't. Paul is writing to the Colossians saying - don't let the Jewish brethren (ie the Sabbath-keepers) push you around. Sorry, but that is what it says. :kiss:God bless
Steven

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 5th 2008, 06:06 PM
I apologize for being a bit later in my response as i wanted to be. Being a mother of 3, I'm often logged in here but not constantly present.

First off, i appreciated your article very much in that it discussed the importance of the Sabbath, as being valid as ever.


However, you're going to meet some opposition from me regarding the Mosaic Law as well as the feasts, as i do not believe even those have been nailed to the cross.

Let me show you why i think that way:

Yeshua Himself said:

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

If it wasn't important to Yeshua to have people observe the Law of Moses, then why did He bring it up knowing what purpose He had come for???

Then you also used scripture to support the 7th day Sabbath, with the following verse:


God gave us the Sabbath, from the beginning, as a sign of sanctification.

Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them
Ezekiel 20:12And i submit to you i would have used a different one that does support the 7th day sabbath being a sign between God and His people. Here however it speaks of Sabbaths in the plural, meaning that all Sabbaths are a sign between God and His people. This would include feasts and holy days the Lord has declared to be a "statue forever", or to be "observed perpetually" "throughout your generations(again plural)"
The word throughout meaning from "beginning to end" (of your generations) What is the determining factor of when that generation ends? Generations span thousands of years.... and until people stop having babies altogether generations do not end.
Not to mention when God said forever i believe He meant forever.
I don't see that He limited it to a certain time frame.

I see the Law of Moses as the Law from the Holy Spirit, and with Moses writing it down, it was for all those who would hear and circumcise their hearts.

The Law of Moses expounds on the 10 commandments, on a deeper level, just as when Yeshua came he made the level even deeper.

Regarding this, i did not care for you taking several verses and scrunching them together:

Compare what you wrote here:


The mosaic law was however given very differently. It was given through Moses:

And Moses wrote this law … And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee(Deut 31:9 cut off and Deut 31:24 added)

With the verses in order:

Deu 31:9 Then Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel.
Deu 31:10 And Moses commanded them, "At the end of every seven years, at the set time in the year of release, at the Feast of Booths,
Deu 31:11 when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
Deu 31:12 Assemble the people, men, women, and little ones, and the sojourner within your towns, that they may hear and learn to fear the LORD your God, and be careful to do all the words of this law,
Deu 31:13 and that their children, who have not known it, may hear and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as you live in the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess."
Deu 31:14 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, the days approach when you must die. Call Joshua and present yourselves in the tent of meeting, that I may commission him." And Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tent of meeting.
Deu 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud. And the pillar of cloud stood over the entrance of the tent.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them.
Deu 31:17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'
Deu 31:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evil that they have done, because they have turned to other gods.
Deu 31:19 "Now therefore write this song and teach it to the people of Israel. Put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the people of Israel.
Deu 31:20 For when I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I swore to give to their fathers, and they have eaten and are full and grown fat, they will turn to other gods and serve them, and despise me and break my covenant.
Deu 31:21 And when many evils and troubles have come upon them, this song shall confront them as a witness (for it will live unforgotten in the mouths of their offspring). For I know what they are inclined to do even today, before I have brought them into the land that I swore to give."
Deu 31:22 So Moses wrote this song the same day and taught it to the people of Israel.
Deu 31:23 And the LORD commissioned Joshua the son of Nun and said, "Be strong and courageous, for you shall bring the people of Israel into the land that I swore to give them. I will be with you."
Deu 31:24 When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end,
Deu 31:25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD,
Deu 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

After all God commanded Moses to teach the people these statues and rules....

Therefore what i would submit that what has been nailed to the cross are the punishments listed in the book of the Law, the condemnation is gone....

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.


Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 5th 2008, 07:31 PM
I want to add more thoughts as to the Law of Moses which you feel has been nailed to the cross:

Deu 6:1 "Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the LORD your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it,
Deu 6:2 that you may fear the LORD your God, you and your son and your son's son, by keeping all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be long.
Deu 6:3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and be careful to do them, that it may go well with you, and that you may multiply greatly, as the LORD, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey.
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deu 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Deu 6:6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.
Deu 6:7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

This is something Yeshua alluded to in the NT:

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?"
Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
Mar 12:31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Now where this "deviates" is where it says: "You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. "

Do you propose then, that we are not to teach our children? (or any child of God for that matter) Since this appears to be a command Moses "added"

To be truthful the gospel (good news) has been preached since ancient times.... Even before Yeshua came in the flesh, He was the Son and the Word from the beginning, the good news from the beginning.

Those that opened/circumcised their hearts understood this. The gospel is eternal....

Shalom,
Tanja

fightingfalcon
Jan 6th 2008, 07:44 PM
First of all excited about the response so forgive me if I accidently miss one of your points...




Overall, I find your understanding of the two laws and of the seventh day sabbath to be quite good. You have done a good bit of study and work putting this together.
One thing I did NOT see anywhere in your study is the fact that we ALL have sinned, that is, broken those eternal commandments of God, and thus we are all already guilty of them all, regardless how well we try to obey them now, and that when we are judged, it will be found that we indeed are guilty of the whole law of God. And death will result. However, the free gift of the death of Christ in our place will, if we accept it now in this life, satisfy the law, and His death will take the place of our death, thereby setting us free from death's curse. Or we can suffer our own death. The choice is ours. But, regardless how much we try, we simply CANNOT EARN our way into heaven. So, should we keep the law? Absolutely! Should we do it in order to be deemed 'good enough' to enter heaven? A foolish and vain venture. We have already broken the law. Having broken it, we cannot cover it up by trying harder and being good. Only the blood of Christ, that is, His death on the cross, can 'cover it'.


I am total agreement there... the reason I really didn't bring that into the discussion was #1 I really didn't think about(honestly), #2 the idea was to show Christians - who believe what you just said - that part of the law, what we are obligated to keep is the Sabbath.

So my main gist was at Christians who understand the plan of redemption, they understand how we are saved and that we must keep the law but somehow they have this idea that the Sabbath is not part of the law anymore... but good point.





About the Feasts
You assert that the Feasts have been fulfilled, which is true, partially, and that they have been done away with, which is true to an extent. However, consider this:
They are called 'Feasts of the Lord', as opposed to 'feasts of the Jews'.
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, [Concerning] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, [even] these [are] my feasts.
2Ch 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate [it] to him, [and] to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This [is an ordinance] for ever to Israel.
Ezr 3:5 And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
As we know, the feasts were prophetic, speaking of the coming and work of Christ, and were indeed fulfilled by Him. But I would submit to you that they are not yet done being fulfilled.
They pointed, and point, to the historical event of the Passover, the yearly harvests, and God dwelling with the Israelites in the wilderness.
They pointed to the Lamb of God Who was sacrificed, and became the Firstfruits of them that believe, to His birth and tabernacling with man on earth in the form of a man, and of His Kingship, and the Atonement that He wrought for us.
Some at least also point forward to a time yet to come, when the wedding is come, and the groom comes and takes away his bride to His father's house, and the marriage feast of the Lamb, of the final judgment and atonement, and of His return to earth to set up His kingdom and once again dwell on earth with men, as reigning King.
They were indeed shadows of things to come, but not all has come yet. I would encourage you to do an indepth study of those shadows. They are there, after all, for us to learn from.

apparently we will be keeping the new moons as well, which is included in your statements regarding the Mosaic law which was done away with and nailed to the cross. Hmmmm. Along this line, also look at Zechariah 14 -
Zechariah 14:16-18 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (17) And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


First of all Israel has been rejected, Israel today are all those who keep God's commandments and follow Christ:
Galations 3:29
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"

So on that note, this prophecy cannot be speaking of literal Israel... or if it was it was based on a condition of their loyalty which they they betrayed.

Having said that it is my understanding that this verse is speaking of the end of times, this seems to be confirmed by the fact that the verse starts out with "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh"

Now in scripture the Day of the Lord is usually a reference to the end times, when Christ comes. Many times we see the fall of Jerusalem and the end times paralleled... so I believe this is speaking of the end times.

Secondly your assuming that we are part of these "nations" which I feel is not the case... The greek word would be gowy which is interpreted "a foreign, Gentile, heathen, nation, people" - It seems that these would not be Christians but heathens, atleast that is my understanding. It also speaks of the families of "egypt", the bible usually uses Egypt as a symbol of wickedness.

My general idea of this chapter is that it was a prophecy for Israel but was on the condition that they stayed loyal to Him which they did not do, so they forfeited it.






About the Shadows
You have stated in your study that before sin, there could be no shadows. I disagree, because even before sin, it was known of God that man would sin. The seven days of creation are themselves shadows, including the seventh day. Of what? Several things, one being Christ Himself.
Consider this:
In the beginning you were made, but sin was found in you, and you were filled with darkness and chaos. But the Holy Spirit hovered over you, and nudged you, and soon, the light of the gospel was presented to you, which you beheld, and the light of truth and salvation was created within you.
But, your carnality remained. Thus God divided the light within you from the darkness that remained within you.
And you were reborn, spiritually, and in spirit you were raised up and are now seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, but your flesh remains below. Thus, a division, a firmament, was formed within you, separating that which is holy and righteous and lifted up within you from that which is lowly and corrupt, dead and buried.
And God raised up within you a solid foundation, and caused life to sprout within you, bearing good seed, and good fruit.
And the Holy Spirit wrote upon your heart the law of God, to rule your walk both in the light and in the darkness, a light to lighten your path.
And God caused greater forms of life to form within you, not only those heavenly things, but caused even your own soul to bring forth new life, and as you share the gospel with others, that new life is formed, and it multiplies itself, for those you bring to life bring others to life.
And eventually, you will finally be formed into the very likeness of Christ Himself. And then, His work in you will be finished, and He, and you, shall find rest, in that day with no darkness and no end.


God knew men would sin but they hadn't yet... so there could be no shadows for something that had not yet happened... the Bible is clear that men lived for a period on the earth before sinning. They weren't created in sin... they were created in perfection and no shadows were needed until sin was found.







You can also, if you dig, find a correlation between the seven days of creation, the seven feasts, the seven furnishings of the tabernacle, the seven patriarchs of Genesis, seven aspects of the exodus from Egypt, the seven letters and seven churches of Revelation, and the seven millenia of man on earth. These all tie together, and each of the seven of each speak of the same precepts.
Example: Day one, light is created and darkness separated. Feast one separated the Israelites, and us, from the curse of death, the first furnishing is the altar of sacrifice, which separated them from their sin, and our Sacrifice separates us from sin.
Day two was the dividing of the waters, feast two was the dividing of the leaven, the second aspect of the exodus was the dividing of the waters of the Red Sea, the second furnishing is the brazen laver in which the water separated them from the filth of their hands.
Day three was the raising of the land and vegetation, the third feast is the raising up of the firstfruits, the third aspect of the exodus is the provision of manna, the third furnishing is the table of shewbread and fruit of the vine.
Etc. You can study out the rest of it. It will facinate you.

7 Is a number of perfection... that is why it is seen in the days of creation and the sacrificial system... it was to symbolize perfection.
The study of the sanctuary and the feasts is fascinating and I have not done so in real depth although I plan to do so sometime.

But again as shown in my study Paul is asserting that the gentiles do not need to keep the feasts...





About the Priesthood
You have stated that the priesthood is done away with, and you are correct, to an extent. However, consider this:
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Notice it says 'changed', not 'done away'. So how was it changed?
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
We are now the priests of God. If you are prepared to do a really comprehensive and indepth study on the priesthood of the OT, and compare it to what we as NT saints are commanded, you will find that every single detail of the priesthood has it's counterpart in the NT.
If you would like to see a 'brief' study on this, you can check it out here: http://www.gleanings.cprministries.net. I am still in the process of developing certain portions of it, but there is enough there to keep you studying for a good while.

The priesthood in its current state was fulfilled in Christ... after Christ we are ordained to be Priests

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

The priesthood was done away in the effect that God is now the high Priest and we, as Christians are Priests of the lord.





About the Law of God
What you have alluded to regarding the law of God, as opposed to the law of Moses, I agree with for the most part. But there are certain things found in the law of Moses that are also seen prior to Moses.
Obviously, the seventh day sabbath was instituted in the very beginning, and concieved before that. And the commandment about murder can be seen in Cain's actions. We can also see the concept of sacrificial atonement, with both Adam and Abel, for the skins Adam was covered with required the death of innocent creatures, undoubtedly sheep, to cover his nakedness, and that same Sacrifice to which that pointed now covers our 'nakedness', and of course Abel made a sacrifice, which he learned from.....where? Adam, of course, who also would have taught it to Cain, to whom God said, Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
We see the concept of sin here, which is the breaking of God's law, and which Cain apparently was supposed to already know, as in 'doest well',
We see also the idea of clean and unclean animals as Noah brought the animals into the ark, seven each of the clean, and two of the unclean, the clean being good to eat, and the unclean being unhealthy to eat.

Well i would agree with that... the ten commandment law was in existence before sin and is the moral code by which the whole universe lives by. It was not created at Sinai but has existed forever.




About the Sacrifice
You have stated that the laws of sacrifice have been done away with. I would submit to you that they have not been done away with, but changed. We still trust in the sacrifice for our salvation, but the One sacrificed has changed. We still lay upon Him all our sin, just as the priests laid their hands upon the head of the sheep to transfer their guilt to it. We are still sprinkled with the Blood of Atonement, but that blood is the blood of the True Sacrifice now, instead of the blood of bulls and goats and sheep.
We still offer up sacrifices to God, the sacrifice of praise, and the sacrifice of our own 'self', which is our reasonable service.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
Php 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
Php 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
Psalms 51:17
(17) The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

I asserted as Paul clearly shows that the sacrificial system of the Israelites has been done away with... again this is symbolized in the tearing of the veil.

I understand your points and they are correct but I think your taking my comments out of context here... we do have to realize that the sacrificial system is done away with in Christ, else we should be sacrificing lambs still... I realize we are still obligated to sacrifice ourselves to Christ...





About the Attitude
There are a number of places that you have inserted your attitude toward those who disagree with you. Let me ask you this. What is your purpose in writing this article? Is it simply to gain approval of those who already agree with you? For those, they will probably not see a problem with your expressions of contempt.
Have your written it in hopes of convincing others of what you deem to be truth? If so, you must know that they at the start do not see things as you see them. How shall you convince them of anything if you offend them? Would it not be better to use terms that are not condescending, condemning, accusing, etc.? The expressed attitude thing really takes away from your whole work.

Let me ask you a question... is it biblical?

My purpose is not to gain agreement but to open the bible and the truths of God's word... if it is not so please show me.

BTw do you mind pointing out where I was condescending? If I appeared so I am happy to edit it out... I sometimes write things and they come out much harsher than I intended or they would have sounded in person... know what I mean?

fightingfalcon
Jan 6th 2008, 08:16 PM
We celebrate Christmas, not out of requirement though... we celebrate it in that Christ was born... there is nothing wrong with celebrating God's birth, death and resurrection but they should never be upheld as laws.

The idea of keeping the sabbath is a communion between God and created... it is a day where we can come and worship our God on a day appointed Himself. The bible doesn't specifically say to goto church as that was a given... if you look at the verses in the bible you see that was a given...

"as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read."

God made only one day holy... we are not to treat any other day holy, Sunday is the counterfeit sabbath... the Lord said to keep the Sabbath holy... I don't believe a true sabbath-keeping christian can goto church on Sunday and truly be following God.


Sorry. Thought of couple more things:
Re: the feasts:you say they are done away with, and no longer should be observed. So let me ask you this. Do you celebrate Christmas or Easter? If so, why? If you do, you would probably say to recognize and celebrate the the birth, and the death and resurrection of Christ. But why should you do that, seeing that those things have already been fulfilled and done away?
Passover today is the God instituded time of recognition and celebration of Christ's death and resurrection. The Feast of Tabernacles is the God instrituted celebration of the birth of Christ,(and is the actual time of His birth), God taberacling with man (among other things). Do you see what I mean? If we should not celebrate Passover or Tabernacles because they have been fulfilled, why change the dates and celebrate them?
Re: the Seventh day sabbath: What is your concept of observing the sabbath? Going to church? Worshipping and praising God? Studying the Word and fellowshipping with the saints?
There is no such command in God's law to do those things. His law says 'remember the sabbath', and 'keep the sabbath holy'. How does one remember it and keep it holy?
It is a 'day of rest'. Do you rest? How do you do that?
In your estimation, is it not possible to rest and keep holy the sabbath, and then worship and fellowship on Sunday? Or how about keeping every day holy, and resting?






Hi FF :)Is there such a thing as a Sunday-keeper? I know that back in the 1970s the "Lord's Day Observance Society" in the UK used to use somewhat uncritically OT Sabbath (Saturday) verses in their futile efforts to prevent Sunday shop-opening. But how typical is that of actual churches?


Most Christians which "keep" Sunday do not truly keep it holy... why should they? The only reason why most of them do so is because they don't know better, if they knew how the true sabbath was to be kept most of them would also know they should be keeping the true sabbath instead of sunday.

I used that as a way of saying people who goto church on sunday for most sunday christians do not indeed keep it holy.






I didn't go back and read it, I assume everyone knows the Sabbath was Saturday.You appear to be operating under a misunderstanding. I know of no Sunday worshipper who believes that 1 of the 10 commandments has been dropped. I certainly don't. Instead the idea is that all 10 commandments have been upgraded from the Law of Moses to the Law of Christ.Okay, please erase this idea from your mind :). On the contrary, the Sabbath has been expanded to fill 365 days a year and the Rest to come. NB. bits of the Law preexisted the Law, such as no pork for Noah, the Sabbath may perhaps also have been known to Noah, but that doesn't mean it is a bit of the law which Christ didn't fulfill and release us from. This "Law" vs "10 Commandments" distinction, is bogus as NT reference to the 10 commandments as "the Law" demonstrates.Yes well they do fit together, because they were the Jewish Christians' hangups that were causing friction at Collossae. What this verse means is that people who have this hangup (e.g. you) shouldn't be judging people who don't (e.g. me) because they might meet on a Tuesday, or whenever, anymore than someone who has a hangup about pork or alcohol should be judging those who don't. Paul is writing to the Colossians saying - don't let the Jewish brethren (ie the Sabbath-keepers) push you around. Sorry, but that is what it says. :kiss:God bless
Steven

They do, believe me they do. Many different sunday churches have different stories, but some of them believe that the Sabbath was somehow dropped with the mosaic law.

Secondly your presenting the ten commandments as the "law of moses". This is contrary to scripture, the bible refers to the law of moses as the mosaic or ceremonial laws and ordinances. The ten commandments are spoken of as the Law of God.

I think the bible is very clear that the mosaic law was done away with, NOT the ten commandment law. I presented many many verses to back this up.

Paul is very clear on this matter.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Romans 6:1-2

How can you say the law was done away with when Paul makes such CLEAR statements as these?


is bogus as NT reference to the 10 commandments as "the Law" demonstrates.

Really? Your state doesn't use that word when they reference their laws? All states do, all countries do... they all call it "the law" - this is meaningless, the Jewish people knew which was which.

I provided verse after verse which clearly and distinctly separates the two laws... how can you say otherwise when the bible does so? Don't say I am wrong, show me from the bible how I am wrong...

Kahtar
Jan 6th 2008, 08:45 PM
BTw do you mind pointing out where I was condescending? If I appeared so I am happy to edit it out... I sometimes write things and they come out much harsher than I intended or they would have sounded in person... know what I mean?I'll provide them for you, but please understand I am not trying to tear you apart here, but rather help you in communication skills. As you said, sometimes we write things that come out differently that we intend. So in that light (and because you asked).....


insane and wholly un-biblical



is plain stupidity



There are still Christians today who will insist that the yearly sabbaths should be observed along with the weekly Sabbath. This is an attack by Satan on God’s holy law for if we still need to keep the yearly sabbaths than what was done away with?

While you were for the most part speaking against the teachings, those who believe and teach these things will feel it to be a personal attack.
The same message can be provided using words that will not have that result.
As to your rebuttals, I have already stated my understanding and critique (which is what you asked for) and don't think I need to beat the horse again, so I'll let that lie.;)

Brother Mark
Jan 6th 2008, 10:20 PM
I just wanted to jump in here and let you guys know... I try to stay out of discussions when I am in over my head. :D

Hey, I am enjoying this thread and the article. I hope to read more of it later.

fightingfalcon
Jan 9th 2008, 07:24 PM
First of all sorry for the delay in replying... I only got to Kahtar's posts and then was unable until today to really get enough time to reply to the rest of you... I wasn't ignoring you, honest:D




However, you're going to meet some opposition from me regarding the Mosaic Law as well as the feasts, as i do not believe even those have been nailed to the cross.


Well the bible is clear that something was nailed to the cross... I feel the bible is clear that this was the ceremonial laws and ordinances... if you feel differently, then please explain to me what law was done away with at the cross and how you feel the Mosaic law is in whole or partially still binding... I am really curious here as the mosaic law was actually given to the Jews only(what some claim the ten commandment law was)... but if you got something I don't know I definitely want to hear it.





Yeshua Himself said:

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

If it wasn't important to Yeshua to have people observe the Law of Moses, then why did He bring it up knowing what purpose He had come for???

The scribes and pharisees called Christ a hypocrite, a devil, son of belial, blasphemer and many other names... they said these things, does this verse mean that the people should listen to that and believe it?

I don't think this verse can be used to support the idea that the ceremonial ordinances and feasts are still to be kept.





Then you also used scripture to support the 7th day Sabbath, with the following verse:

And i submit to you i would have used a different one that does support the 7th day sabbath being a sign between God and His people. Here however it speaks of Sabbaths in the plural, meaning that all Sabbaths are a sign between God and His people. This would include feasts and holy days the Lord has declared to be a "statue forever", or to be "observed perpetually" "throughout your generations(again plural)"
The word throughout meaning from "beginning to end" (of your generations) What is the determining factor of when that generation ends? Generations span thousands of years.... and until people stop having babies altogether generations do not end.
Not to mention when God said forever i believe He meant forever.
I don't see that He limited it to a certain time frame.


Hmm....

13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Interestingly enough the first word "sabbaths" is the same greek root as 15 where it is clear he is referring to the Sabbath: shabbath

Sabbaths, plural does not mean the writer is not referring to the Sabbath of rest... in fact whenever in the bible God is speaking to His people and says "my" before sabbath, insinuating ownership... the next word is always "sabbaths"... never do you see "my sabbath"

So I think it is quite safe to say this verse is indeed speaking of the Sabbath of rest... in context we get that very idea.





I see the Law of Moses as the Law from the Holy Spirit, and with Moses writing it down, it was for all those who would hear and circumcise their hearts.

The Law of Moses expounds on the 10 commandments, on a deeper level, just as when Yeshua came he made the level even deeper.

Regarding this, i did not care for you taking several verses and scrunching them together:

Compare what you wrote here:

(Deut 31:9 cut off and Deut 31:24 added)



Had I printed all the verses the article would have been huge... the idea is not to present the whole bible in one article but to get you studying the bible for yourself... I wasn't trying to hide anything, I was just presenting the fact of how the mosaic law was written, what was done with it afterward etc...






After all God commanded Moses to teach the people these statues and rules....

Therefore what i would submit that what has been nailed to the cross are the punishments listed in the book of the Law, the condemnation is gone....

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.


Shalom,
Tanja

God also commanded them to circumcised and later after the cross Paul says "circumcision is nothing..." God commanded them to keep the mosaic law, it was inspired for them as a nation, they were to follow it.

What about the condemnations in Revelation and Daniel? I agree that in Christ our condemnation is gone, when we accept His sacrifice He wipes our slate clean... I agree with that however the ceremonial laws and sacrifices point to Christ... do you feel we should still keep those?



[I am going to reply with a new post to each of your comments. That way things won't be so cluttered. So I will be back in a bit... ;-)]

fightingfalcon
Jan 9th 2008, 07:29 PM
I'll provide them for you, but please understand I am not trying to tear you apart here, but rather help you in communication skills. As you said, sometimes we write things that come out differently that we intend. So in that light (and because you asked).....



While you were for the most part speaking against the teachings, those who believe and teach these things will feel it to be a personal attack.
The same message can be provided using words that will not have that result.
As to your rebuttals, I have already stated my understanding and critique (which is what you asked for) and don't think I need to beat the horse again, so I'll let that lie.;)

I thank you for that criticism... I do see your point and will edit that in a minute here. It probably has no redeeming value to use such words anyways so might as well not come across that way... thanks again!
And thanks for your comments! It has been interesting...




I just wanted to jump in here and let you guys know... I try to stay out of discussions when I am in over my head. :D

Hey, I am enjoying this thread and the article. I hope to read more of it later.

Glad to hear it! Please be sure to give your feedback... I want all your opinions... even if we totally agree you may have insight I would never have thought of... and if you don't agree then I would love to hear why.

Kahtar
Jan 9th 2008, 08:55 PM
Here's a verse you may find interesting.
1 Corinthians 5:7-8 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: (8) Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

What feast do you think Paul was speaking of here? And to whom was he addressing it? And is there anything in this verse, or in the context, to tell us to NOT keep that feast?

MeerkatMadden
Jan 9th 2008, 08:59 PM
If those things are done away with, then WHY will we be celebrating the Sabbath, New Moon and the Festivals during the 1000 year reign of Christ (see Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 45 and 46, and Isaiah 66)????

It is time to wake up.

The judgment of God is coming.

Prophet Tom Deckard (perfect 32 year track record) says that God is about to send a horrific judgment to this earth:

AliveinChristDave
Jan 9th 2008, 09:28 PM
Steven is right. There are those who don't keep
Sunday. In fact we don't keep anything--days--laws--feasts--nada, nothing NONE!! We either have to decide whether or not our relationship with God is through Christ or the law. You can't have both.
It's not grace plus law. If Eph. 2:8 is right then that does away with anything else.
We can't split theolgical hairs. Everything is black and white

In Matthew 23 Christ pronounces 7 woes on the scribes and Pharisees.
Seven times---that's perfection.
Did our Lord know what He was doing? Of course He did.
After addressing the scribes and Pharisees He addressed Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Then Christ addressed God's house-The Earthly Temple when He said:
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I will let you look up the meanings of WOE and DESOLATE if you care to.

So, if the Scribes and Pharisees can't escape the damnation of God and Jerusalem (which is on the earth) rejected Christ and there house is left desolate, what's left? Nothing!

Colossians 2:14 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/search/list/?search_book=Colossians&search_chapter_verse=2&varchapter_verse=2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Everything the scribes and Pharisees wrote was nailed to the cross.
Let me say, I'm thankful for the diligence of the scribes in preserving God's word but that word was nailed to the cross.

It died with Christ.

But the word of God arose. It arose in a body. The living Word of God!
Now it's written in our hearts, not on tablets of stone.
Now it's living. What more do we need?
Should we go back and keep a day or feast or commandment? For those of you who believe we should, I'd like to know why? Wasn't Christ's work enough? You think we've got to do something to help bring about the kingdom of God? We have to obey?

After Christ pronounced His Judgment on the House of God, He said:

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Christ teaches us about the name of the Lord in John 14-17.

John skips Christ's prophesy about the end of the world in Matt. 24-27 but records His words spoken from the Garden.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.


We don't need the law of God and we don't need the old house of God.

God is building us mansions.

Galatians 4:26 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/search/list/?search_book=Galatians&search_chapter_verse=4&varchapter_verse=4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Those mansions are being built in the heavenly Jerusalem.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God

Abraham never saw a city on the earth called Jerusalem. He did know where Bethel was though.

Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

After telling the believers in the garden they have another city where mansions are built for them He tells them in vs. 6 that HE was the WAY, TRUTH, and LIFE.

Why did He tell them that? Because HE wanted them to know HE was the WAY TRUTH and LIFE. NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Is he enough? Do we need to do something outside of Christ to get to God?
Absolutely not.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Now we ask and do everything in His name. There is no earthly Jerusalem, not laws, no NOTHING.

We don't keep days, that includes Sunday. Our rest is in Christ.

We don't go to the temple to worship now. Our bodies are the temple of God.

We don't have to offer a sacrifice on the alter. Christ is our sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Hebrews 10:21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


This post is already longer than I intended so I'm not going to expound these verses but I'd urge anyone to ask God for the truth in them.
The veil is the flesh of God. We can know Christ in the flesh today.
Until you do, you will never enter into holiness.

It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. When Jonathan Edwards preached that great sermon in 1741 he was preaching to believers and he was right on. The lost never see or touch God but believers do and falling into His hands holding onto some work of the flesh will not be pleasant.

One more thing. I'm always asked that if the OT was nailed to the cross with Christ, do we need it today? The answer is yes. Just as it says in
I Cor. 10 they are written for our admonition. Everything in the OT is a type or symbol for us to use today and things that happened in the OT can be applied as lessons for us today. It's when we make them more than a type or symbol that we get into trouble.
In Christ,
Dave

BHS
Jan 10th 2008, 01:47 AM
Colossians 2:14 "having erased out the certificate of debt of dogmas against us and that which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of our midst, having nailed it to the cross."

Even a surface reading of Psalm 119 would tell us that the "Law" is not against or hostile to us. It was the debt (I owed a debt I could not pay) that was removed at the cross and the "dogmas" were the indictment against us. To understand Paul we have to go deeper than just a surface reading to get the real meaning of the passage.

Blessings,
BHS

Clifton
Jan 10th 2008, 02:46 AM
I found that when it comes to issues like that which is within this thread is to check out the verses being addressed is to do a google search, say, like "Colossians 2:14" (with the quote included in the search), and the other "associated" (or so-called) verses, though, in most cases, if you search for one, you will usually see most of them (if not all) listed on the web page(s);

Then you can test the pros and cons versus the pros and cons ;-) Evaluate the teachings / statements and compare them with spiritual sense, as well as common sense. If you have a decent knowledge of Koine Greek, put that to good use. Does "A" make better spiritual/common sense than "B", or vice-verse? Does it conform to the Koine Greek? That is what ye got to determine;

And usually, when it comes to those whom have not pursued the finer points in Koine Greek, most people got Bible Software, and can click on a Strongs number to get some depth of a definition. Note there is oft more than one Greek word for an English word in a translation. Say, for example, if you click for the definition of "new", that is one of them, but don't assume you already know the underlying greek when you see the word "new" again. Example:

2537 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2537)-denotes the new primarily in reference to quality, the fresh, unworn
3501 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3501)-denotes the new primarily in reference to time, the young, recent


3501 would be more or less like a "new" car (after selling your old one off). And then maybe even later, perhaps years, you won't modifications made to your car, you would refresh / renew it (2537).

2537 is the one for "new" covenant - it has been refreshed / renewed. The contexts explain that. Here, the debt against us has been paid.

Also, when it comes to Paul's writings, they are oft misunderstood, because for the most part, he was writing to those whom had a better grasp of the discussions.

Just check all things out - these educations are a long and winding road (isn't there a song called that? ;))

fightingfalcon
Jan 10th 2008, 02:52 AM
If those things are done away with, then WHY will we be celebrating the Sabbath, New Moon and the Festivals during the 1000 year reign of Christ (see Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 45 and 46, and Isaiah 66)????

It is time to wake up.

The judgment of God is coming.

Prophet Tom Deckard (perfect 32 year track record) says that God is about to send a horrific judgment to this earth:

http://www.jewishprophet.com/End%20Time%20Messenger/Warning.htm

First of all Tom Deckard isn't God... if what he says doesn't align COMPLETELY with the bible then he is a false profit.

What I would like to know is for those of you who have commented and appear to believe that the ceremonial laws and feasts are still to be kept... how do you explain the verses I have shown in the article that speak of them being done away with?
I personally think that these mentions of keeping the feasts in the future would be symbolic of what the feasts meant, not that we will actually be gathered to participate in a jewish feast but that they are symbolic.





Here's a verse you may find interesting.
1 Corinthians 5:7-8 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: (8) Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

What feast do you think Paul was speaking of here? And to whom was he addressing it? And is there anything in this verse, or in the context, to tell us to NOT keep that feast?


Some commentators seem to think that this "feast" is speaking of the passover or the Lord's supper what we celebrate as communion.

I think that what Paul is saying is "purify yourselves"... the previous verses show that he is writing because of fornication in the church... I don't think he is making a statement as in "keep the feast", as in they weren't before... I think he is asking them to return to purity, cleansed of their wickedness and keep the feast in a renewed Christian state...

1 Corinthians was actually written near the time of the passover so it is very likely this is the feast he is referring to.
So I think the "feast" is not being recommended to the Corinthians as new but is ALREADY an active part of their religion.

I believe there are feasts, rather ceremonies such as communion which we should keep. I don't think that the word "feasts" is a bid word and that those who keep them are going to hell... not at all. I just feel strongly that most of the traditional feasts of the Jews were fulfilled in Christ and we need not keep them anymore. But that wasn't my basis of starting the article, the basis was to show that it was the Mosaic ordinances such as circumcision which were done away not the ten commandment law.

Also the "blotting out" does not make keeping those feasts and ceremonies a sin however in that some of them point directly to Jesus I would wonder whether in keeping them you did not believe in Christ's coming.

Clifton
Jan 10th 2008, 03:28 AM
First of all Tom Deckard isn't God... if what he says doesn't align COMPLETELY with the bible then he is a false profit.

"profit" ? You must be thinking about the TV Evangelists making profits in a falsehoods :D


I believe there are feasts, rather ceremonies such as communion which we should keep. I don't think that the word "feasts" is a bid word and that those who keep them are going to hell... not at all. I just feel strongly that most of the traditional feasts of the Jews were fulfilled in Christ and we need not keep them anymore. But that wasn't my basis of starting the article, the basis was to show that it was the Mosaic ordinances such as circumcision which were done away not the ten commandment law.I was circumcised... I thought most Americans were. Am I okay? ;)


Also the "blotting out" does not make keeping those feasts and ceremonies a sin however in that some of them point directly to Jesus I would wonder whether in keeping them you did not believe in Christ's coming.Ah, ok, I'm okay. :cool:

fightingfalcon
Jan 10th 2008, 03:33 AM
Sunday. In fact we don't keep anything--days--laws--feasts--nada, nothing NONE!! We either have to decide whether or not our relationship with God is through Christ or the law. You can't have both.
It's not grace plus law. If Eph. 2:8 is right then that does away with anything else.
We can't split theolgical hairs. Everything is black and white

What we need to decide is if our relationship with God is genuine or baloney... if it is genuine we will keep God's holy law and we will keep his holy sabbath... if it is not genuine we will disregard both...





Everything the scribes and Pharisees wrote was nailed to the cross.
Let me say, I'm thankful for the diligence of the scribes in preserving God's word but that word was nailed to the cross.

It died with Christ.

God wrote the ten commandments, not the scribes or the pharisees.





We don't need the law of God and we don't need the old house of God.

If we don't keep the law then we are devils in the church, we are claiming to be Christians yet we are living like the world... you say no, not true... however you just said we don't need the law, yet Paul is clear we do...

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

When you say we don't need the "law of God" you are in effect saying we don't need God... for it is God's law... did you know that the sin of the Nicolaitanes mentioned in Revelation 2 was this very sin... claiming the name of Christ through faith and claiming that they didn't need to keep the law, this saved by grace teaching of many churches now days... if you doubt me you can research it... and let me tell you the bible has nothing good to say about the nicolaitanes.

14. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

They claimed that they could commit idolatry, sexual promiscuity, and Gnosticism(the idea that salvation comes through knowledge)

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." Jude 4We are saved through faith by the grace of God and that not by works HOWEVER no works or bad works condemn us... we cannot be saved if our life does not live out what we claim... that is hypocrisy and the way the Pharisees lived.


Colossians 2:14 "having erased out the certificate of debt of dogmas against us and that which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of our midst, having nailed it to the cross."

Even a surface reading of Psalm 119 would tell us that the "Law" is not against or hostile to us. It was the debt (I owed a debt I could not pay) that was removed at the cross and the "dogmas" were the indictment against us. To understand Paul we have to go deeper than just a surface reading to get the real meaning of the passage.

Blessings,
BHS
I think that is part of what I was trying to bring out... totally agree




I found that when it comes to issues like that which is within this thread is to check out the verses being addressed is to do a google search, say, like "Colossians 2:14" (with the quote included in the search), and the other "associated" (or so-called) verses, though, in most cases, if you search for one, you will usually see most of them (if not all) listed on the web page(s);

Then you can test the pros and cons versus the pros and cons ;-) Evaluate the teachings / statements and compare them with spiritual sense, as well as common sense. If you have a decent knowledge of Koine Greek, put that to good use. Does "A" make better spiritual/common sense than "B", or vice-verse? Does it conform to the Koine Greek? That is what ye got to determine;

And usually, when it comes to those whom have not pursued the finer points in Koine Greek, most people got Bible Software, and can click on a Strongs number to get some depth of a definition. Note there is oft more than one Greek word for an English word in a translation. Say, for example, if you click for the definition of "new", that is one of them, but don't assume you already know the underlying greek when you see the word "new" again. Example:

2537 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2537)-denotes the new primarily in reference to quality, the fresh, unworn
3501 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3501)-denotes the new primarily in reference to time, the young, recent


3501 would be more or less like a "new" car (after selling your old one off). And then maybe even later, perhaps years, you won't modifications made to your car, you would refresh / renew it (2537).

2537 is the one for "new" covenant - it has been refreshed / renewed. The contexts explain that. Here, the debt against us has been paid.

Also, when it comes to Paul's writings, they are oft misunderstood, because for the most part, he was writing to those whom had a better grasp of the discussions.

Just check all things out - these educations are a long and winding road (isn't there a song called that? ;))

Paul was not necessarily writing to "those whom had a better grasp of it" - Peter said Paul was hard to understand:

"as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. "

We need to really study and compare scripture... comparing the internet can be fine but unless it is biblical it should be taken very carefully...
As for this subject being a "long winding road" I strongly believe it is one we need to travel... my next article is going to be showing why the sabbath is important and how(biblically) it will be THE test of the end times... this is all biblical and surprises many.

fightingfalcon
Jan 10th 2008, 03:37 AM
"profit" ? You must be thinking about the TV Evangelists making profits in a falsehoods :D

lol close enough... actually that is kind of biblical... doesn't the bible say "they have their reward" well this could be applied also to false prophets... lol anyway that was an unintentional miss-spelling :P




I was circumcised... I thought most Americans were. Am I okay? ;)

I think your blowing that one out of the context of my comment... I never said it was bad, I just said that the bible is clear that after Christ's death it was not a requirement.

Clifton
Jan 10th 2008, 03:47 AM
Paul was not necessarily writing to "those whom had a better grasp of it" - Peter said Paul was hard to understand:

I disagree - Paul wrote letters where many, but not neccesarily all, knew the whole contexts of what he was saying - for others, the letters were hard for some to understand. No, Peter did not say Paul was hard to understand, he said his LETTERS were hard to understand ;-)



"as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. ":confused You put the words right in my mouth which I just emphasized :D


We need to really study and compare scripture... comparing the internet can be fine but unless it is biblical it should be taken very carefully... Yes, I should have pointed that out since not all have any training in Koine Greek (since it is the NT that some leans towards to promote a modernized form Marcionism, though not necessarily adhering to all of the ghost of Marcion).


As for this subject being a "long winding road" I strongly believe it is one we need to travel... my next article is going to be showing why the sabbath is important and how(biblically) it will be THE test of the end times... this is all biblical and surprises many.I've enjoyed the road. As for your article, I guess it will be on the web, and when it comes to people looking for works on the internet on certain scriptures (as I have suggested here in this thread), they will be able to review your work? ;)

Clifton
Jan 10th 2008, 03:49 AM
lol close enough... actually that is kind of biblical... doesn't the bible say "they have their reward" well this could be applied also to false prophets... lol anyway that was an unintentional miss-spelling :P




I think your blowing that one out of the context of my comment... I never said it was bad, I just said that the bible is clear that after Christ's death it was not a requirement.


Probably so. I just put it there to stay on topic. I just wanted to make a cute remark about the "profit" word :D

fightingfalcon
Jan 10th 2008, 04:09 AM
I disagree - Paul wrote letters where many, but not neccesarily all, knew the whole contexts of what he was saying - for others, the letters were hard for some to understand. No, Peter did not say Paul was hard to understand, he said his LETTERS were hard to understand ;-)

I am not sure that is an arguable point... these letters where written by Paul, if Paul's LETTERS were hard to understand than that would make Paul hard to understand, atleast at times ;)





I've enjoyed the road. As for your article, I guess it will be on the web, and when it comes to people looking for works on the internet on certain scriptures (as I have suggested here in this thread), they will be able to review your work? ;)

No my goal is to point them to the bible... that is why I provided so many bible verses... if they mind my article I hope they can live through my grammatical errors and get a blessing out of it and can learn something... that is my whole goal

Clifton
Jan 10th 2008, 02:29 PM
I am not sure that is an arguable point... these letters where written by Paul, if Paul's LETTERS were hard to understand than that would make Paul hard to understand, at least at times ;)

No my goal is to point them to the bible... that is why I provided so many bible verses... if they mind my article I hope they can live through my grammatical errors and get a blessing out of it and can learn something... that is my whole goal


Well that seemed to be the goal of web sites which I turned up in my research, they would put the “other” scriptures, or put the referenced ones back in the context (IOW, the preceding and following verses) - thus, expressing, that the idea of a verse is dependent upon its context(s) and the other contexts of the scriptures. And if the idea of one verse, or some selective verses is a mistake, then they would pose the question, why is this verse, or these other verses there in The Bible if “such and such” were really true?

In may case, my research was not for determining on way to go, but “why” some where going the way they were going hither and thither.

I been a Christian since 1972 and I do not think I was ever under any idea that the 10 commandments was, what is the word being used, “Abolished” or something like that? If I ever was with such an idea, it must’ve been short-lived. I would like to be able to tell you I have never made any mistakes over the past several decades, but I cannot.

Over the years when I read the Bible, I read it chapter by chapter, which is the way to read it contextually, so with the exception of some verses like “drink and be merry” :spin:, I did not end up disjointing snippets from the context(s) so much.

If the 10 commandments was “nailed” to the cross, then since I am to bear the cross, the 10 commandments must be with me ;-) Now, I do believe the debt has been paid and the sacrificial lamb has been achieved.

P.S. I haven't drank any alcohol beverages since 1990 - Nyquil is not a beverage so it does count.:D

AliveinChristDave
Jan 10th 2008, 07:47 PM
Colossians 2:14 "having erased out the certificate of debt of dogmas against us and that which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of our midst, having nailed it to the cross."

Even a surface reading of Psalm 119 would tell us that the "Law" is not against or hostile to us. It was the debt (I owed a debt I could not pay) that was removed at the cross and the "dogmas" were the indictment against us. To understand Paul we have to go deeper than just a surface reading to get the real meaning of the passage.

Blessings,
BHS

The law was against us because there never was anyone capable of keeping it.
Why?
Because it's a heart matter.
Unless the heart is changed we will never change.
Psalms is a beautiful book full of references to the birth, life and sufferings of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We can use it to broaden our understanding of our Lord.
But you have to go through the cross to get to it.
I've never met a law keeper, and I've known a lot of them during my life time, who wasn't self righteous.
I've knows many who wouldn't buy a soft drink from a vending machine on Sunday.
Good people but righteous in their own eyes because they were doing something for God, something to prove their righteousness.
In Romans 3, God imputed Righteous to Abraham
In Romans 4, God imparted Righteousness to us.
In Romans 5, God perfects righteousness in those who die.
In Romans 6 and 7 We who have been buried and raised into new life in Romans 6, perfect righteousness as we overcome the flesh in Christ.
In Romans 8 we fullfill righteousness because we have overcome the flesh and then we can call God our Daddy and be ready to receive the adoption as sons of God.
As Sons of God we walk in the glorious liberty of the Sons of God.

I pray that you would let God rid you of your own righteousness which is in the law and ask God to direct you to His righeousness in Jesus Christ.

BTW. You need to think about changing Bible versions. If someone recommended the one you're using they're misleding you. The King James Bible has withstood the test of time.
In Christ,
Dave

AliveinChristDave
Jan 10th 2008, 07:54 PM
I found that when it comes to issues like that which is within this thread is to check out the verses being addressed is to do a google search, say, like "Colossians 2:14" (with the quote included in the search), and the other "associated" (or so-called) verses, though, in most cases, if you search for one, you will usually see most of them (if not all) listed on the web page(s);

Then you can test the pros and cons versus the pros and cons ;-) Evaluate the teachings / statements and compare them with spiritual sense, as well as common sense. If you have a decent knowledge of Koine Greek, put that to good use. Does "A" make better spiritual/common sense than "B", or vice-verse? Does it conform to the Koine Greek? That is what ye got to determine;

And usually, when it comes to those whom have not pursued the finer points in Koine Greek, most people got Bible Software, and can click on a Strongs number to get some depth of a definition. Note there is oft more than one Greek word for an English word in a translation. Say, for example, if you click for the definition of "new", that is one of them, but don't assume you already know the underlying greek when you see the word "new" again. Example:

2537 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2537)-denotes the new primarily in reference to quality, the fresh, unworn
3501 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3501)-denotes the new primarily in reference to time, the young, recent


3501 would be more or less like a "new" car (after selling your old one off). And then maybe even later, perhaps years, you won't modifications made to your car, you would refresh / renew it (2537).

2537 is the one for "new" covenant - it has been refreshed / renewed. The contexts explain that. Here, the debt against us has been paid.

Also, when it comes to Paul's writings, they are oft misunderstood, because for the most part, he was writing to those whom had a better grasp of the discussions.

Just check all things out - these educations are a long and winding road (isn't there a song called that? ;))

There are many study available on line. I'll post links to some.
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 50 versions and 35 languag (http://www.biblegateway.com/)

Search The Authorized King James Version Bible (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/search.html)

Blue Letter Bible (http://www.blueletterbible.org/)

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 14th 2008, 05:40 AM
I pray that you would let God rid you of your own righteousness which is in the law and ask God to direct you to His righeousness in Jesus Christ.How can it be our own righteousness when we do what the Word has said for us to do ?
When the Word says "love your neighbor" And i do just that, am i then creating my own righteousness ? When the Word says to tie fringes on the corners of my garments, am i not following the Word of God ? You might be surprised what the Holy Spirit revealed to me about that Law. it serves a good purpose in a community of believers, especially if they understand what it represents.
When the Word says you shall not steal, and i do follow that, how am i creating my own righteousness, when i'm looking to the Word for instructions, and the Holy Spirit for understanding? This is how the Law gets written in my heart when i look at the commandment, follow it, and the Holy Spirit explains to me the deper layers of for example, "you shall not steal" Yes it's a simple command, but do you know what God considers stealing ? When you accept a gift of charity, and were not in need, that is taking away from the poor person that has a greater need than you.

The Word is Yeshua, and has been so from the beginning in a non human form, and the Word became flesh... and died. Following God;'s instructions isn't doing your own works, because it's doing what God commanded. How that can be confused as something of my own is beyond me, as i'm following the will of God.

By own works, God means works which have nothing to do with instructions, but a thinking of following your own mind and understanding. If i tie fringes to my garments without fully understanding the command, i'm following God's command in faith that it has a purpose and i do not lean on my own understanding.
Knowledge and understanding doesn't just come to you in a full set of BAM< now you know it all. It's a learning process, and God will teach you as you mature the things He thinks you can hanlde and need to know.

Why tell a 3 year old he cannot have sex before marriage ?

You see: Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

The Law is not a burden at least not to me. If God tells me to tie fringes to the corners of my garments, and i don't understand yet, i'm become like a child doing what the Father says, because i know He has a reason for everything and that it all is for something good.

Anyway, i'm sure you might disagree, and that's ok. I just wanted to share my perspective.

Shalom,
Tanja

jiggyfly
Jan 14th 2008, 12:49 PM
How can it be our own righteousness when we do what the Word has said for us to do ?
When the Word says "love your neighbor" And i do just that, am i then creating my own righteousness ? When the Word says to tie fringes on the corners of my garments, am i not following the Word of God ? You might be surprised what the Holy Spirit revealed to me about that Law. it serves a good purpose in a community of believers, especially if they understand what it represents.
When the Word says you shall not steal, and i do follow that, how am i creating my own righteousness, when i'm looking to the Word for instructions, and the Holy Spirit for understanding? This is how the Law gets written in my heart when i look at the commandment, follow it, and the Holy Spirit explains to me the deper layers of for example, "you shall not steal" Yes it's a simple command, but do you know what God considers stealing ? When you accept a gift of charity, and were not in need, that is taking away from the poor person that has a greater need than you.

The Word is Yeshua, and has been so from the beginning in a non human form, and the Word became flesh... and died. Following God;'s instructions isn't doing your own works, because it's doing what God commanded. How that can be confused as something of my own is beyond me, as i'm following the will of God.

By own works, God means works which have nothing to do with instructions, but a thinking of following your own mind and understanding. If i tie fringes to my garments without fully understanding the command, i'm following God's command in faith that it has a purpose and i do not lean on my own understanding.
Knowledge and understanding doesn't just come to you in a full set of BAM< now you know it all. It's a learning process, and God will teach you as you mature the things He thinks you can hanlde and need to know.

Why tell a 3 year old he cannot have sex before marriage ?

You see: Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

The Law is not a burden at least not to me. If God tells me to tie fringes to the corners of my garments, and i don't understand yet, i'm become like a child doing what the Father says, because i know He has a reason for everything and that it all is for something good.

Anyway, i'm sure you might disagree, and that's ok. I just wanted to share my perspective.

Shalom,
Tanja

Do you happen to have any scriptures that represent this line of thinking?

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 14th 2008, 03:26 PM
Jos 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Shalom,
Tanja

jiggyfly
Jan 15th 2008, 12:57 PM
Jos 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Shalom,
Tanja

Sorry but I don't see how this verse states that the law becomes written on your heart through obedience to it.

VerticalReality
Jan 15th 2008, 03:03 PM
I'm confused as to why folks say that we are dead to the Mosaic Law because it was not written by God, but we are alive to the 10 Commandments because it was written by God. Paul seems to say to me that we are dead to ALL of the law . . .



Romans 7:7-12
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


Thou shalt not covet is not a Mosaic Law. Thou shalt not covet is one of the 10 Commandments. Paul says we have died to this law along with the others. That's what he spent the first six verses of Romans chapter 7 explaining with the whole analogy of the woman not being able to marry another until her first husband is dead. We have died to the entire law that brought death to us in order to marry Christ and have life.

jiggyfly
Jan 15th 2008, 03:22 PM
I'm confused as to why folks say that we are dead to the Mosaic Law because it was not written by God, but we are alive to the 10 Commandments because it was written by God. Paul seems to say to me that we are dead to ALL of the law . . .



Thou shalt not covet is not a Mosaic Law. Thou shalt not covet is one of the 10 Commandments. Paul says we have died to this law along with the others. That's what he spent the first six verses of Romans chapter 7 explaining with the whole analogy of the woman not being able to marry another until her first husband is dead. We have died to the entire law that brought death to us in order to marry Christ and have life.


Excellent point, further more why is the law of Moses discerned different from the ten commandments? Exodus 20:22

And the Lord said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel:

2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7 That old system of law etched in stone led to death, yet it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. 8 Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory when the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9 If the old covenant, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new covenant, which makes us right with God! 10 In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new covenant. 11 So if the old covenant, which has been set aside, was full of glory, then the new covenant, which remains forever, has far greater glory.
12 Since this new covenant gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory fading away. 14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and even to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, a veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.
16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, then the veil is taken away. 17 Now, the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, he gives freedom. 18 And all of us have had that veil removed so that we can be mirrors that brightly reflect* the glory of the Lord. And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more.

Here Paul also refers to the ten commandments also.

RogerW
Jan 15th 2008, 03:48 PM
First of all I want to let everyone know I am not registered to drop a link and leave, I just finished writing an article, actually 2 articles on the sabbath and wanted your opinions.

The second and latest is about the Sabbath, feast days and the law nailed to the cross.
http://www.ebibleanswers.com/blog/let-no-man-judge-you-sabbath-days/

I want mostly feedback on this article... I would like the opinion of mostly sunday-keepers, have I done a good job of presenting it. What are arguments you would still use after reading the WHOLE article?

I really want your feedback, of course I know i'll get some feedback on the site but thought I would see what you guys say. I realize the article is good size but if some of you could read it and let me know your thoughts i'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

Greetings fightingfalcon,

I didn’t read the entire article. But since it appears your argument is for keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath, and believe it is unbiblical to call Sunday the Sabbath and worship on Sunday, I will keep my reply focused on this part of your article.

“The seventh day sabbath could not be a “shadow of things to come” as the sabbath was instituted before sin and there could NOT be shadows before sin existed. It doesn’t even make sense, what would the sabbath be a shadow of? And why would people before Christ’s time need rest but those of us after not need rest? Or is it, we just get to pick our own day now? None of this makes sense and whats more it isn’t biblical.”

Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. This is before creation, and therefore before any sin existed. The blood of the slain lamb marked the door post at the first Passover meal before the exodus from Egypt. This lamb’s blood symbolized life that is found through the blood of The Lamb of God and so symbolizes delivery or freedom from bondage, through His blood. Therefore the Sabbath instituted by God at creation symbolizes the New Covenant Lord’s Sabbath. This is why we read in the gospel’s that the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath (Mt 12:18; Mk 2:28; Lu 6:5). Man was created perfect, without sin, however Christ as the Lamb slain (a shadow or symbol) is established in heaven from before the foundation of the world. Clearly a shadow, or symbol existed before sin entered the world.

Hebrews shows us the New Covenant Sabbath in the Lord. There is a rest (4520. Sabbatismosa - from a derivative of 4521; "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):--rest.) to the people of God who have entered into His rest.

Since we enter into His rest/His Sabbath when we become saved, we are to cease from doing our own works of the law for forgiveness, even as God did from His after creation.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The Mosaic ceremonial laws became obsolete when Christ went to the cross and the veil of the temple was rent. But the Jews continued to observe these ceremonial laws as long as the first Tabernacle remained standing. It was only after the total destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that the OT ceremonial laws completely ended. But the Sabbath for the Jews was their keeping of the Seventh Day Sabbath according to the Laws given THEM by God.

As a New Covenant Christian I make every effort to keep the Lord’s Sabbath which is not limited to one particular day of the week. The fact that I worship on Sunday is important and originated because this is the day the Lord resurrected from the dead, and made eternal life a reality for all who receive faith to believe on Him. We can also find biblical confirmation for worshipping our risen Lord on the first day of the week as opposed to the seventh. But because of poor translation this is difficult to see.

Look carefully at this verse from the gospel of Matthew. We see an end coming to the Sabbath. The word day being italicized means it is added for easier reading, but was not in the original language. Finally the word translated “week” is the same exact word that has been translated Sabbath. Why the translators translated the same Greek word differently is unknown. Therefore the true reading of this passage shows us that one era of Sabbath keeping was ending and another era of Sabbath keeping began. It would not be improper to translate this passage thus, In the end of the Sabbath, as it begin to dawn toward the first of the Sabbath, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mt 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week [Sabbath], came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The Greek word translated Sabbath; 4521. Sabbaton - of Hebrew origin (7676); the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:--sabbath (day), week.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2008, 10:06 PM
I'm confused as to why folks say that we are dead to the Mosaic Law because it was not written by God, but we are alive to the 10 Commandments because it was written by God. Paul seems to say to me that we are dead to ALL of the law . . .



Thou shalt not covet is not a Mosaic Law. Thou shalt not covet is one of the 10 Commandments. Paul says we have died to this law along with the others. That's what he spent the first six verses of Romans chapter 7 explaining with the whole analogy of the woman not being able to marry another until her first husband is dead. We have died to the entire law that brought death to us in order to marry Christ and have life.

This is so very right!

We have not been divorced from the law, because God hates divorce.
The only thing that can separate us (as likend to husband and wife) is death, and we have been crucified with Christ
The law is still alive, but we are dead, and so in Christ we have fulfilled the requirements of the law.

To go back to the law (written in tablets of stone), we would be committing adultery, for we are betrothed to another.
In the O/T the people were led outwardly by the hand, but in the N/T we are led inwardly by the heart
We now live by the Spirit within us. We work out what God has worked in us

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The law that we have died too, is the law that imputes sin. They can give it what label they like.
Yes there is sin without the law, and we will be punished (chastised) for the un-confessed sin, but not as imputed by the requirments of the law.

tgallison
Jan 15th 2008, 10:48 PM
Jos 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Shalom,
Tanja

Tanja Hi

He who lives under the law, shall be judged by the law.

Are you willing to be judged by the law?

In Jesus Christ, terrell

brakelite
Jan 15th 2008, 11:47 PM
Hi Kahtar
I noticed that here, and elsewhere that mention has been made of an apparent lack of instruction re special worship or meeting on the sabbath.
I would like to refer you to the following:
Le 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.


Interesting also is the context that this verse is taken from. It is set as a contrast to the feast days which are explained in the following verses. Yet all the feast days are described as being holy convocations. Thus all the sabbaths, weekly and annual, were set aside specifically for the purpose of a public assembly, obviously to worship.

Regards
Brakelite

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 16th 2008, 04:33 AM
He who lives under the law, shall be judged by the law.

Are you willing to be judged by the law?It doesn't say that one who lives under the law will be judged. It says all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by it.


Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

If you somehow think i'm under the Law because i obey it, you're mistaken, as i explained before, just because i'm in Christ doesn't mean i can now do all things that were previously contrary to the Law. I still follow it, but due to Him i'm no longer under the condemnation of it.

As a law abiding citizen the Law still applies to you, but should you slip up, you have a greater chance of being forgiven, because you can show a good track record. When one accepts Christ all old sins are washed away and rectified. You will undergo training as a newborn child undergoes training and rules. As a Newborn you will make mistakes, but you will also learn and desire to please your parents by obeying their rules. It's beyond me why people think things with God, who calls Himself our heavenly Father should be different, than they are with our earthly parents.


Shalom,
Tanja

brakelite
Jan 16th 2008, 06:08 AM
Ummmm, :hmm:did I say that?;)

brakelite
Jan 16th 2008, 06:21 AM
Your claim that we do not need the law is lost on me.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

These are just a small sample of texts re the law and the reqirement of the Christian to observe it.

Regards
Brakelite

jiggyfly
Jan 16th 2008, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Jesusinmyheart http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1500258#post1500258)
Jos 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Shalom,
Tanja

Sorry but I don't see how this verse states that the law becomes written on your heart through obedience to it.

VerticalReality
Jan 16th 2008, 03:17 PM
1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.


How could Paul make such a statement? How could all things be lawful?

VerticalReality
Jan 16th 2008, 03:27 PM
What I think folks need to understand is that just because you do not sin does not mean that you are keeping the law. I don't go around killing people because it's not the right thing to do . . . not because there's some law telling me not to. There is a huge difference in there that many caught up in legalism do not seem to catch on to. I don't steal from people because it's not a loving thing to do. It's not loving my neighbor as myself if I steal from them. I don't refrain from stealing because God has a written law telling me not to do it. That's what is called observing the Spirit of the law and not the letter. Christians have no written law that they must keep because they have the Spirit of God in them that should be teaching and correcting them on how to be holy.