PDA

View Full Version : "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Wiese (and other thoughts) -- do YOU believe him?



Thirst
Jan 5th 2008, 06:47 AM
My wife bought this book a while back, and I took it to work today. I was curious. I had obviously heard of the book, but I had never read it. I spent my whole lunch hour reading it.

I was floored at what I was reading.

I believe him. I have to trust that a man who has belonged to the Lord since 1970 is telling the truth, and what he says is true and he literally experienced hell -- and it is exactly as the Bible describes it. He uses Scripture throughout his book to back up his claims. My sister went and heard him speak and she said that he was a man who could not ignore the burden that was put upon his heart, and that he knew the Bible like the back of his hand, and backed up his experience with the Word of God.

There is so much 'new age' theology that wants us to kind of... Well, forget about hell. At least that has been what I have seen more often than I'd like to. It is not comfortable. It is not pleasant. But it is real, and it is where people will spend their eternal lives if they do not accept Jesus Christ.

I know that a lot of people probably don't believe Bill -- it is, by most standards, an unbelievable story. But, are we to put God in a box and think that He can't or won't do such things to wake up the world? I have read some stuff online about Bill, and there is a good handful of Christians that feel he is a kook. I find that sad, because it is judging him in a way that we are not called to do. We are to use discernment in such matters, but do we do that at the cost of judging another person so harshly that we call into question their relationship with God?

I felt deeply convicted as I read this book, and I felt deep terror. It made me think of people I love who have not accepted Christ and what awaits them after death. It made me worry for myself. I never felt the Spirit telling me that this man was making this up. What I did feel was fear, which is something that I have felt lately. I feel that I am a good husband, I have a decent job, I pay my bills and I don't break any laws. Yet, I know that I am a wretched sinner and without Christ I am nothing. I felt this fear because I know in my heart through the Holy Spirit that I have not given Christ anything.

Proverbs 1:7 says that, "Fear of the Lord is the beginning to wisdom."

I believe that. Before, I was trying to be a Christian on my own terms, using God like a vending machine. Now, I see that if I don't begin to live a life that is full of repentance and seeking Christ, I will be lost as well. My heart needs to be worked on, and I believe Christ has started that work in me.

I believe Bill Wiese's book is a tool that He is using. God knows the number of his children that have come to Him through this book and Bill's story. It is amazing and I commend him for sharing his experience, as horrific and dreadful that it may be. If only some of us could have the same boldness for Christ and not fear that we will be offending others. Mainly I say this from my own experience, but I see it in others as well.

My wife's aunt was killed by a drunk driver on December 22. At her funeral, our pastor gave the sermon. It had little to do with my wife's aunt, but it had everything to do with the Lord, as she would have wanted it that way. Before my pastor spoke, he said something very profound: The truth offends some people. I remember walking out of the service and hearing my mother-in-law say that she felt he took advantage of the situation. All our pastor did was speak of the love and the beautiful gift of salvation offered to us by God through Christ. I am sure many other people felt the same way.

The response of some people to this book is telling to me. 2,000 years ago, people did not want to believe Christ, either. Now, I am not equating Bill Wiese with Christ, so please don't get confused. What I am saying is that most people, even us Christians, want to put God in a box. Just as Jesus wasn't believed by the majority 2,000 years ago, many people are still refusing the miracles that God does today, and I find that sad.

I am sorry about my ramble... but it is just something that has been on my heart.

Soj
Jan 5th 2008, 07:11 AM
Do I believe him? Well I havn't read his story so I can't comment on his experience, but if I was in a room with him and he stood up and started talking about the reality of hell then he would have my full support. Why? Because I believe in it just as much as he does, but by FAITH!

We Christians have a faith which is based upon the written and living Word, and none of us have seen Jesus in the flesh, none of us have seen heaven or hell, and yet we all believe in them by faith. That's the way God has ordained it, and if God allowed someone to see any of these things and then remain to live on earth I would think it would be contradictory to the Bible. So in saying that, I suppose I don't believe Bill Wiese, but it sure sounds like God is using his book!

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Thirst
Jan 5th 2008, 07:47 AM
Do I believe him? Well I havn't read his story so I can't comment on his experience, but if I was in a room with him and he stood up and started talking about the reality of hell then he would have my full support. Why? Because I believe in it just as much as he does, but by FAITH!

We Christians have a faith which is based upon the written and living Word, and none of us have seen Jesus in the flesh, none of us have seen heaven or hell, and yet we all believe in them by faith. That's the way God has ordained it, and if God allowed someone to see any of these things and then remain to live on earth I would think it would be contradictory to the Bible. So in saying that, I suppose I don't believe Bill Wiese, but it sure sounds like God is using his book!

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I appreciate your post Soj, but what makes you not believe Wiese? The man has been a Christian for over 30 years. I am just trying to see what other members here think. Did this man, having proclaimed His faith in Christ, lie about experiencing hell because he wanted to sell a few books? The man is a successful realtor and I doubt he needs the money.

Have others experienced hell? Some people believe that Jonah did. In Jonah 2:2, Jonah says that, "I cried by reason of my affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice."

Who knows. Others have reported on their experiences in hell, and I have a hard time believing that they are all lying. Wiese even says on page 98 of his book that all people should view spiritual experiences in light of Scripture.

I think that the time is drawing near. Bill Wiese said he saw Christ and spoke with Him as he was being led out of hell, and Christ told him that the reason he experienced this was to tell people that hell is a very real place. Yes, you believe hell exists because that is what the Word tells you and you believe by faith. But there are Christians who think hell is nothing more than a metaphor or a symbol. It is sad but true. Then Wiese said that Christ told him, "Tell them I am coming very, very soon."

These things... They are hard to believe, but it seems to me that people are as hard to convince as they were in the time that Christ was preaching.

I choose to believe him because I trust that he loves the Lord and he would not dishonor Him by lying and making up false claims to push people to Christ in fear. I believe that God is completing a very real purpose in his life, and I just hope others open their hearts to listen and consider that God probably uses everything to get as many souls to come back to Him as He can.

Soj
Jan 5th 2008, 08:03 AM
I appreciate your post Soj, but what makes you not believe Wiese?I explained why I don't believe him, because it is not of faith.

It's fantastic that he has been a Christian for over 30 years, but the guy is a stranger to me, I'm not saying he's lying, he may well have had a terrible experience/dream/vision which he equates to going to hell, but like I said I havn't read his book. No doubt it's had a huge impact on you bro.


Have others experienced hell? Some people believe that Jonah did. In Jonah 2:2, Jonah says that, "I cried by reason of my affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice."I believe Jonah died in the whales belly and went to hell for 3 days and 3 nights, then was resurrected from the dead and spat out on to dry land...but Jonah's experience was unique and necessary to fulfill scripture (Luke 11:29).

cbalke
Jan 5th 2008, 12:59 PM
i tend to give these folks a lot of the benefit of the doubt. i've done a LOT of research into NDEs - Near Death Experiences. even though every experience is different, there's a lot of commonality.

one of the biggest cliches about people dying, even represented in cartoons, is the 'light at the end of the tunnel'. a lot of people scoff at that notion, but think back to your bibles. who do we say is the truth, the light, and the way? is it so hard to believe that Jesus would actually be waiting for us as we're dying? (and how many times have you heard the person they're with saying "stay AWAY from the light!"...isn't that sad?)

given what he did for us almost 2000 years ago, waiting/meeting someone seems a very small thing, doesn't it? whether it's to welcome someone or to judge them or to funnel the soul off to it's proper place til the actual day of judgement, why would it be so hard to believe that the one man on earth capable of bridging the gap for us between this earth and heaven would be sticking around a little bit to see us through that transition?

course, we'll never be able to prove any of this til we're gone and at that point it's moot, so it's really just food for thought. but, i would advice people keep a much more open mind about what is possible rather than what they believe is impossible....

daughter
Jan 5th 2008, 01:01 PM
The rich man asked Jesus to send him back from hell to warn his brothers, saying "surely they'll believe someone who rose from the dead." And Abraham said, no. They have the law and the prophets, if they don't believe them, they won't believe one who comes back from the dead.

Now we have the law, the prophets, and the New Testament, an account of our saviour returning from the dead. I'm not sure that anyone who doesn't believe these will be convinced, though one comes back from the dead to warn them, so I don't know why God would send this man back with his message.

This doesn't mean I think the man's lying. Maybe he did experience a hallucination that was very profoundly affective. I don't know. Or maybe he did see what he said he saw, and it was real. I struggle with this. My husband was technically dead and had a vision of heaven. I know he's there now, but I don't know for one hundred percent sure that his vision was true, though I'd like to believe it. But Scripture does say that someone wanted to come from hell to warn the living, and was denied it. I'm not sure why God would have changed the rules, when we have more than enough information now to preach the gospel.

TSP
Jan 5th 2008, 09:20 PM
I am actually in the middle of the book now. I am on the chapter "can good people go to hell?" So far I say this man is legit, and his story is amazing. I loved this part - Jesus told me "Tell them I am coming back very very soon."

Saved7
Jan 5th 2008, 09:27 PM
Yes, I believe him. His encounter with the Lord after his hell experience was VERY similar to my encounter with Jesus. Including the part that he said the Lord told him to "tell them I am coming back, I am coming back SOON!"
You can read about mine and compare here....
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=77958

diffangle
Jan 5th 2008, 10:14 PM
Here's his video testimony...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RhfsxIS5fG8

Big T
Jan 5th 2008, 10:22 PM
What does the bible teach us about going to hell? Can a person escape from it? If he can go to hell and come back (I'm assuming this is what happened) then God did not make it permanent. If a human can escape hell, then it will in no way hold satan.

Soj
Jan 5th 2008, 10:44 PM
Here's his video testimony...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RhfsxIS5fG8
OK I just watched that and there is extra-Biblical accounts in Bill's testimony of 13 foot reptilian, unsymetrical demons ripping his body apart and crushing his skull in a prison cell! It also interested me how he was consulting his notes alot....if it was me the memories of such an experience would be in the forefront of my mind and on the tip of my tongue, and I would express it with much more passion than he did...but that's him I suppose.

Saved7
Jan 5th 2008, 11:45 PM
I don't know about that...I know that as time goes on there are details that I forget about my testimony. Writing it down is the only way I can look at it and say...oh and this happened too. There's a lot to remember...details that as small as they seem in every day life, are comfirming to the bible when testified.
And the man didn't necessarily die, God just gave him a vision, is the way I would interpret that. So could he escape hell when he isn't really there? What of the people who die and find themselves in hell and are revived? They come back to tell their story and become christians. Of course there are some whose testimonies are quite questionable...but that doesn't mean the others aren't true. Let's not forget that all things are possible with God.
The idea that no one who goes there escapes; is for those whose time it is to die and stay dead. NOt for those whose time it isn't, and God is just trying to wake them up before it's too late later in life. I don't think that comment is to be made with such a broad stroke, that no one who goes to hell escapes. Only those who are dead permanently does that apply to. We know that people die and are revived every day, and I am sure that MANY of those same people are unbelievers.:saint: Let's not forget that Jesus also said that it is not possible to pass from heaven to hell. Context. But people die and go to heaven and come back all the time, so why do we doubt when one comes back from death and says they were in hell?

Big T
Jan 6th 2008, 12:00 AM
OK I just watched that and there is extra-Biblical accounts in Bill's testimony of 13 foot reptilian, unsymetrical demons ripping his body apart and crushing his skull in a prison cell! It also interested me how he was consulting his notes alot....if it was me the memories of such an experience would be in the forefront of my mind and on the tip of my tongue, and I would express it with much more passion than he did...but that's him I suppose.There is nothing biblical about the demons torturing people. There is nothing to back that up. Also, there is nothing biblical about escaping from hell.

Thirst
Jan 6th 2008, 02:26 AM
OK I just watched that and there is extra-Biblical accounts in Bill's testimony of 13 foot reptilian, unsymetrical demons ripping his body apart and crushing his skull in a prison cell! It also interested me how he was consulting his notes alot....if it was me the memories of such an experience would be in the forefront of my mind and on the tip of my tongue, and I would express it with much more passion than he did...but that's him I suppose.

He says that he is a shy person and is not a trained public speaker. I think I would stumble a little bit too, because I have trouble standing in front of a big group of people and speaking. I can relate with him. Just because he was looking at his notes means nothing, bro. He wants to get the story out exactly as it happened. I think you're being just a tad bit nitpicky... No offense meant at all.

It seems you're basically calling the man a liar... If I am wrong about that, then I apologize.

I still believe him. No way can someone just make this stuff up. He'd have to be an atheist to lie like this, which I would bet he's not.

Thirst
Jan 6th 2008, 02:33 AM
There is nothing biblical about the demons torturing people. There is nothing to back that up. Also, there is nothing biblical about escaping from hell.

Matthew 8:28-32

"When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"


Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water."

Mark 9:17-18, 22

"Then one of the crowd answered and said, "Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid...And often he has thrown him into the fire and into the water to destroy him."

Luke 9:39-42

"a spirit seizes him...it convulses him...bruising him..." The demon threw him down and convulsed him.

Luke 22:31

"And the Lord said, 'Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat."

Acts 5:16

"...bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed."

There are others. Revelation 9:10, 2 Corinthians 12:7, Ephesians 6:16, Luke 11:26.

I would consider being possessed, being bruised and being thrown as being tormented.

As far as escaping hell... Who knows. Jonah could have.

Big T
Jan 6th 2008, 05:09 AM
Sorry thirst. I meant in hell. This thread is about him claiming to be tormented in hell, by demons.

Soj
Jan 6th 2008, 05:24 AM
He says that he is a shy person and is not a trained public speaker. I think I would stumble a little bit too, because I have trouble standing in front of a big group of people and speaking.Fair enough.


I think you're being just a tad bit nitpicky... No offense meant at all.Yes, I do get nitpicky about these kind of things! No offense taken.


It seems you're basically calling the man a liar... If I am wrong about that, then I apologize.

I still believe him. No way can someone just make this stuff up. He'd have to be an atheist to lie like this, which I would bet he's not.The guy obviously believes what he experienced in his dream/vision/hallucination, so I don't think he's lying about that, but I still think that what he has concluded is probably not true, that is, that he experienced 23 minutes in the Biblical hell!

He also said that while in "hell" he had no hope in Christ, and that God had wiped his entire memory of his faith...:hmm:

Big T
Jan 6th 2008, 05:27 AM
No way can someone just make this stuff up. Ever read Dean Koontz, Stephen King....?

Slug1
Jan 6th 2008, 05:32 AM
Dante's Inferno was written back in the 1600's I think, so stories of Hell have been made up for a long time.

Thirst
Jan 6th 2008, 05:38 AM
Sorry thirst. I meant in hell. This thread is about him claiming to be tormented in hell, by demons.

Yeah, I guess I just believe that if they can do it on earth, why can't they do it in hell? I don't know.

Thirst
Jan 6th 2008, 05:40 AM
Dante's Inferno was written back in the 1600's I think, so stories of Hell have been made up for a long time.

But why do we assume they are making it all up? What if God is using these people to spread the message that hell is very real? Yes, the Bible says it is and we know it is, but what about the lost?

newdaddy1223
Jan 6th 2008, 01:40 PM
one point here..... hell was created for satan and the fallen angels... not for people... i find it hard to believe that there any demons in hell torturing people. personally, i think satan is using them here on earth for his own purposes. i also don't think they will be doing anything but suffering while they are in hell. maybe Bill had a powerful vision, but i don't think he literally went to hell.

Big T
Jan 6th 2008, 02:48 PM
Dante's Inferno was written back in the 1600's I think, so stories of Hell have been made up for a long time.That was about a volcano and a guy who could drive his truck over lava.

Big T
Jan 6th 2008, 02:49 PM
Yeah, I guess I just believe that if they can do it on earth, why can't they do it in hell? I don't know.Nope, in hell the demons will be tortured. They will not be torturing. It is meant to punish those angels that left God's service.

diffangle
Jan 6th 2008, 03:13 PM
one point here..... hell was created for satan and the fallen angels... not for people... i find it hard to believe that there any demons in hell torturing people. personally, i think satan is using them here on earth for his own purposes. i also don't think they will be doing anything but suffering while they are in hell. maybe Bill had a powerful vision, but i don't think he literally went to hell.


Nope, in hell the demons will be tortured. They will not be torturing. It is meant to punish those angels that left God's service.

Mat 8:12 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=8&v=12&version=KJV#12)But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Luk 13:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=13&verse=28&version=kjv#28)There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

This verse indicates that that He's talking about people being cast into hell and that there must be some torture going on b/c of the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

cbalke
Jan 6th 2008, 05:08 PM
the literal definition of "hell" is a separation from God. for us, that's exactly what it means. demons and fallen angels aren't necessarily going to hell as a place, they're getting put into a lake of fire. if God does turn his face completely from them and makes a separation from them, then yes they'll truly be in hell, too.

Big T
Jan 6th 2008, 05:20 PM
Mat 8:12 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=8&v=12&version=KJV#12)But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Luk 13:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=13&verse=28&version=kjv#28)There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

This verse indicates that that He's talking about people being cast into hell and that there must be some torture going on b/c of the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.


Nope, in hell the demons will be tortured. They will not be torturing. It is meant to punish those angels that left God's service.The demons will not be doing the "torturing". There is no verse to support satan "ruling" over hell like you see in the movies. He will not be sitting there on a thone of skull and bones, laughing at the misery of those there with him. He will be gnashing his teeth as well as the other people.

daughter
Jan 6th 2008, 07:54 PM
Interestingly, in Dante's Inferno, Satan was stuck down at the bottom, gnashing his teeth...

But the thing is, many people at the time read what was a political allegory as though it was Biblical truth. Dante was writing a poem, and using it to attack structures in the world that he thought unholy and evil... hence his popes buried upside down having their feet burned by devils, or a political adversary's soul being in hell, telling him that his (still living at the time of the poem) body was now inhabited by a demon. But he didn't intend it to be taken literally! Sadly so many people have taken it literally.

Nothing in the Bible suggests that the demons will be torturing anyone in hell. We'll suffer our own loneliness and regret because we rejected the only source of joy and happiness. That would be more torture than anything the most wretched sinner in this world has ever known.

skc53
Jan 7th 2008, 07:55 PM
Big T you made some good points in your posts, and I agree with you. As I see it, anyone who goes to hell won't be able to escape it and leave. In my opinion if a person goes to hell they are there for eternity. Wouldn't you agree?

AlainaJ
Jan 7th 2008, 08:01 PM
I do beleive it.

go to biblebelievers.com and read an antique E Book called the dying testimonies of the saved and unsaved.

It is an interesting book.

Big T
Jan 8th 2008, 02:50 AM
Big T you made some good points in your posts, and I agree with you. As I see it, anyone who goes to hell won't be able to escape it and leave. In my opinion if a person goes to hell they are there for eternity. Wouldn't you agree?That's what I've always figured the bible says.

diffangle
Jan 8th 2008, 04:53 AM
The demons will not be doing the "torturing". There is no verse to support satan "ruling" over hell like you see in the movies. He will not be sitting there on a thone of skull and bones, laughing at the misery of those there with him. He will be gnashing his teeth as well as the other people.
There is a fallen angel who is king over the bottomless pit and there is torturing going on under him...

Rev 9:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=9&verse=10&version=kjv#10)And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.


Rev 9:11 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=9&v=11&version=KJV#11)And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.



Big T you made some good points in your posts, and I agree with you. As I see it, anyone who goes to hell won't be able to escape it and leave. In my opinion if a person goes to hell they are there for eternity. Wouldn't you agree?
In this verse the beast ascends from the pit/hell/abyssos (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G12&Version=kjv)to make war...

Rev 11:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=7&version=kjv#7)¶And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit(abyssos) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Soj
Jan 8th 2008, 07:42 AM
There is a fallen angel who is king over the bottomless pit and there is torturing going on under him...Under his rule the torturing will be upon the earth, not in hell...

Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Those in hell will be tormented by the flames...

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

daughter
Jan 8th 2008, 07:54 AM
I do beleive it.

go to biblebelievers.com and read an antique E Book called the dying testimonies of the saved and unsaved.

It is an interesting book.
It is, but I was very disappointed that at least one of the testimonies was utterly invented. You know the story of Voltaire screaming about hell on his death bed? Not true, there is no contemporary account of anything like this. If only Voltaire had in fact called out the name Jesus on his death bed, I might have hoped he was in heaven. But the account was made up quite some time after his death. He actually died as he lived, and didn't call on the name of God at all.

A lot of times folks do just make up stories that they wish were true. When I read the Voltaire story, I was pleased... because the Bible tells us that all those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. But as I say, having checked it out, absolutely no contemporary of Voltaire's, including those who were at his death bed (including doctors and priests) record him mentioning Jesus at all.

Big T
Jan 8th 2008, 02:13 PM
There is a fallen angel who is king over the bottomless pit and there is torturing going on under him...

Rev 9:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=9&verse=10&version=kjv#10)And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.


Rev 9:11 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=9&v=11&version=KJV#11)And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.



In this verse the beast ascends from the pit/hell/abyssos (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G12&Version=kjv)to make war...

Rev 11:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=7&version=kjv#7)¶And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit(abyssos) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.What is the context of the verses that you posted? What is happening at that time?

TSP
Jan 8th 2008, 08:54 PM
I just finished the book and i am amazed i thought it was awesome.

torazon
Jan 8th 2008, 10:17 PM
I believe he thinks what he saw was the real thing. However I very much doubt it was real. So I do not think he is telling everyone a lie, if that makes any sense.

I hope I am wrong though and his story is true, and that God blesses it and uses it.

Tumbleweed
Feb 9th 2008, 12:11 AM
Yes, I truly think he is a liar and this is why:

Mr. Wiese claims "God took it out of my mind that I was a Christian. I didn't understand why." You have to ask yourself, why would God do that? Basically saying that God took away his salvation so He could send Mr. Wiese to hell for 23 minutes. There is a world full of unbelievers doomed for hell, why not use one of them to come back from hell and convince people there is a God and a Hell? I just cannot believe God would send a "Christian" to be tortured in hell, it's against God's love and character to do such a thing to one of his followers.

As with Pastor Don Piper who wrote the book called 90 Minutes in Heaven, where Don Piper died in a head-on collision on a two-lane Highway and spent 90 minutes in Heaven then returning to his broken body. If you want, you can investigate and check out that the emergency crew declared him dead on the scene, that a Pastor following Mr. Piper from a Pastors conference meeting had crawled inside his mangled car with him and prayed for him with his dead body and witnessed him coming back to life. There were witnesses and lots of them.
As with Mr. Wiese, there is no way to prove that he had died, or had an out of body experience and his soul transported to hell to be tormented and thrown around by 13 foot demons. You would have to rely on his wife's eyewitness account that she found him curled up in the fetal position on the living room floor at 3 o'clock in the morning. And what kind of proof is that?
In my own opinion, I think Mrs. Wiese is in on the lie as well. Remember Ananias and Sapphira?

Bill Wiese can claim he has been a Christian for the past 30 years, or 100 years for that matter. Just because he claims to be one doesn't mean he is one. I can claim to be an Astronaut, doesn't mean that I am one. 80 percent of Americans claim to be Christian and I know for a fact that that is not true.

Bill Wiese's visions is also promoting the false prophet Kenneth Hagin, who also claims to have been to Hell and back. Sorry to say, but if you support Kenneth Hagin as a trust-worthy honest Christian source, that is a HUGE red flag!

Mr. Bill Wiese book sales are getting him exactly what he wants.......money and lots of it. He and his wife are lining their pockets with the stuff. It's very damaging what they are doing. Do you remember Mike Warnke? He caused a great deal of damage to believers and unbelievers alike.

It makes me sick to my stomach to see "23 Minutes in Hell" for sale in my church bookstore. I don't know why some Christians have to be so gullible.
Please don't buy this book and support this fake.

Does Hell exist? Yes it does, and it's forever.
Did Mr. Bill Wiese spend 23 Minutes in Hell? No, he didn't. Not even for 23 nano seconds.

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 01:10 AM
I just cannot believe God would send a "Christian" to be tortured in hell, it's against God's love and character to do such a thing to one of his followers.


Didn't He allow Job's torture?

Big T
Feb 9th 2008, 01:26 AM
Didn't He allow Job's torture?Job's struggles are entirely different than being sent to hell. agree?

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 01:46 AM
Job's struggles are entirely different than being sent to hell. agree?
Job was being tortured by THE demon/satan, YHWH allowed it. Read the comment I was responding to... YHWH does indeed allow for believer's to be tortured.

Kingsdaughter
Feb 9th 2008, 01:56 AM
Didn't He allow Job's torture?

Was Job tortured in hell? Tumbleweed posted that he doesn't believe God would send a 'christian' to be tortured in HELL.

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 02:00 AM
Was Job tortured in hell? Tumbleweed posted that he doesn't believe God would send a 'christian' to be tortured in HELL.
TW followed up with "it's against God's love and character to do such a thing to one of his followers"... doesn't that indicate that he/she is talking mainly about the act of torture?

Kingsdaughter
Feb 9th 2008, 02:07 AM
TW followed up with "it's against God's love and character to do such a thing to one of his followers"... doesn't that indicate that he/she is talking mainly about the act of torture?

No, it doesn't. If that's what TW meant, don't you think that's what he/she would have posted?

Big T
Feb 9th 2008, 02:20 AM
Job was being tortured by THE demon/satan, YHWH allowed it. Read the comment I was responding to... YHWH does indeed allow for believer's to be tortured.The comment said "in hell". This is the important part. "IN HELL".

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 02:41 AM
The comment said "in hell". This is the important part. "IN HELL".
Not really... if YHWH wants someone to experience hell then He can do it.

The cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of death confronted me (2 Samuel 22:6).

If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there (Psalm 139:8).

… and he said, “I called out of my distress to the Lord, And He answered me. I called for help from the depth of Sheol. Thou didst hear my voice” (Jonah 2:2).

Big T
Feb 9th 2008, 03:03 AM
Can do it, yes.

Note the verse you submitted says one of the biggest words in the english language. "IF"

You tend to quote a verse from a thought. Look at the whole text and take that into context.

God "can" do anything He wants. But certains things He will not do. If he said "I will not do such and such" then He never will. Correct?

God wishes that "none shall perish" but He will allow them to, simply because He will not affect their free will. correct?

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 03:18 AM
[quote=Big T;1531160]Can do it, yes.

Note the verse you submitted says one of the biggest words in the english language. "IF"

The word "if" doesn't actually exist in the Hebrew text, it's the word yatsa` which means to spread out, make a bed.



You tend to quote a verse from a thought. Look at the whole text and take that into context.

God "can" do anything He wants. But certains things He will not do. If he said "I will not do such and such" then He never will. Correct?

Where does He say that a living person can't experience hell?



God wishes that "none shall perish" but He will allow them to, simply because He will not affect their free will. correct?

Correct... and they will perish, but I don't understand what you're saying here in relation to this conversation. :confused

Tumbleweed
Feb 9th 2008, 04:41 AM
God can do all things, but there is one thing that God cannot do, and that is to lie.
God promised "NEVER will I leave you, NEVER will I forsake you" (you = being a Christ follower) - Hebrews 13:5

If Mr. Bill Wiese, who claims he is a Christ follower, was sent by God to Hell for 23 minutes to suffer and be tormented and tortured by demons, then either God is a liar, or Mr. Bill Wiese is a liar. I think I would have to side with the loving God who has given his son Jesus as a sacrifice, so that his followers would not have to experience Hell. I would have to say that Mr. Wiese lied.

As I have said in a previous post, I just cannot believe that the God of the bible would send a "Christian" to be tortured in Hell, it is against God's love and character to do such a thing to one of his followers. It couldn't happen.

Remember: God promised "NEVER will I leave you, NEVER will I forsake you"

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 04:46 AM
God can do all things, but there is one thing that God cannot do, and that is to lie.
God promised "NEVER will I leave you, NEVER will I forsake you" (you = being a Christ follower) - Hebrews 13:5

If Mr. Bill Wiese, who claims he is a Christ follower, was sent by God to Hell for 23 minutes to suffer and be tormented and tortured by demons, then either God is a liar, or Mr. Bill Wiese is a liar. I think I would have to side with the loving God who has given his son Jesus as a sacrifice, so that his followers would not have to experience Hell. I would have to say that Mr. Wiese lied.

As I have said in a previous post, I just cannot believe that the God of the bible would send a "Christian" to be tortured in Hell, it is against God's love and character to do such a thing to one of his followers. It couldn't happen.

Remember: God promised "NEVER will I leave you, NEVER will I forsake you"
Did He leave Bill or is He still with him?

Tumbleweed
Feb 9th 2008, 05:05 AM
Did He leave Bill or is He still with him?

If God truley sent Mr. Wiese to Hell, whom claims to be a Christian, then I would have to say that God left him, and God lied when he said "I will never leave you nor will I ever forsake you." Hebrews 13:5. To go to hell, you would have to be seperated from God. Therfore, he left you and forsake you. It's actually not as complicate as you are trying to make it.

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 05:11 AM
If God truley sent Mr. Wiese to Hell, whom claims to be a Christian, then I would have to say that God left him, and God lied when he said "I will never leave you nor will I ever forsake you." Hebrews 13:5. To go to hell, you would have to be seperated from God. Therfore, he left you and forsake you. It's actually not as complicate as you are trying to make it.
I just haven't seen any Scripture posted that says that if YHWH allows someone to experience hell while they're still alive then He has left them and forsook them.

If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there (Psalm 139:8).

… and he said, “I called out of my distress to the Lord, And He answered me. I called for help from the depth of Sheol. Thou didst hear my voice” (Jonah 2:2).

Big T
Feb 9th 2008, 05:25 AM
[quote]

Where does He say that a living person can't experience hell?

Where does it say that a living person does and comes back?

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 03:37 PM
Where does it say that a living person does and comes back?
In the two verses I posted in my previous post. David says when he makes his bed in hell YHWH is there and Jonah said from the depths of hell YHWH hears him. Also, the fallen angels that are being held in the pit until the end times are going to come back from it.

I guess a good question to ask is, where is hell?

RoadWarrior
Feb 9th 2008, 04:34 PM
.... Maybe he did experience a hallucination that was very profoundly affective. I don't know. Or maybe he did see what he said he saw, and it was real. I struggle with this. My husband was technically dead and had a vision of heaven. I know he's there now, but I don't know for one hundred percent sure that his vision was true, though I'd like to believe it. ...

Daughter, I'd like to know more about what your husband saw in his vision. My mother had a vision of the stairs going up to heaven, and it was a great comfort to us when she passed, thinking of her experiencing what she had seen in her vision. She described beautiful flowers, beautiful music, family and friends waiting for her, and Jesus at the top of the stairs. The stairs were so smooth, she said, she didn't even have to walk, she could just float right up. When Mother passed, it was hard for one of her little great-grandchildren, and hearing that story at that point was enormously comforting to that child.

I also have personally known two people who experienced so-called NDEs, one was my first husband who died on the operating table and when they brought him back he described what he saw from a point of looking down at this body on the table. For the first time he realized that his doctor had a small bald spot on the top of his head. He came back into his body when they hit him with the electric stimulator and lived a few more years.

The other is a friend in my church, who heard God speak with the 'voice of a multitude' while she was dead (in a hospital in Paris) and was told that the "prayers of the saints have given you a choice" - there were hundreds of us praying for her. Her choice to come back to a life of pain was made because she saw her son, who would need her to raise him as a Christian.

Big T
Feb 9th 2008, 05:25 PM
In the two verses I posted in my previous post. David says when he makes his bed in hell YHWH is there and Jonah said from the depths of hell YHWH hears him. Also, the fallen angels that are being held in the pit until the end times are going to come back from it.

I guess a good question to ask is, where is hell?So, you're saying that David and Jonah both went to hell.

RoadWarrior
Feb 9th 2008, 05:32 PM
In the two verses I posted in my previous post. David says when he makes his bed in hell YHWH is there and Jonah said from the depths of hell YHWH hears him. Also, the fallen angels that are being held in the pit until the end times are going to come back from it.

I guess a good question to ask is, where is hell?

A good question, indeed! It might be worthwhile to look at the definitions and understandings of the different words translated "hell" in the English version of the Bible.

In the OT, the word is "sheol" and it simply means the place of the dead. Everyone went there and as far as I can tell, there is no Biblical sense of torment, but of resting, and waiting.

The pit in Revelation is a different word, and has a different understanding, of a different place.

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 06:01 PM
So, you're saying that David and Jonah both went to hell.
Where were they ? Where was Bill? Where is hell? Can hell be on earth? Is it underground? I know where Scripture/Yahushua talks about once a person has died and gone there he can't come back, but I haven't seen where a living person can't experience it... do you know of any Scripture that speaks of that?

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 07:07 PM
A good question, indeed! It might be worthwhile to look at the definitions and understandings of the different words translated "hell" in the English version of the Bible.

In the OT, the word is "sheol" and it simply means the place of the dead. Everyone went there and as far as I can tell, there is no Biblical sense of torment, but of resting, and waiting.

The pit in Revelation is a different word, and has a different understanding, of a different place.
I think it would be worth taking a look at. :)

Deu 32:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Deu&chapter=32&verse=22&version=kjv#22) For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Is there different levels?

Job 33:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Job&chapter=33&verse=29&version=kjv#29)Lo, all these [things] worketh God oftentimes with man,

Job 33:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Job&chapter=33&verse=30&version=kjv#30)To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 07:14 PM
In the OT, the word is "sheol" and it simply means the place of the dead. Everyone went there and as far as I can tell, there is no Biblical sense of torment, but of resting, and waiting.


These verses seem to indicate discomfort when speaking of hell/sheol...

Deu 32:22 (http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Deu&c=32&v=22&t=KJV#22)For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

2Sa 22:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Sa&chapter=22&verse=6&version=kjv#6)The sorrows of hell compassed me about

Psa 116:3 (http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=116&v=3&t=KJV#3)The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

RoadWarrior
Feb 9th 2008, 07:30 PM
Am 9:2
2 "Though they dig into hell,
From there My hand shall take them;
Though they climb up to heaven,
From there I will bring them down;
NKJV

this sounds like hell is in the ground.

OT:7585
OT:7585 <START HEBREW>loav=<END HEBREW> she'owl (sheh-ole'); or sheol (sheh-ole'); from OT:7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:

KJV - grave, hell, pit.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

diffangle
Feb 9th 2008, 07:39 PM
Am 9:2
2 "Though they dig into hell,
From there My hand shall take them;
Though they climb up to heaven,
From there I will bring them down;
NKJV

this sounds like hell is in the ground.

OT:7585
OT:7585 <START HEBREW>loav=<END HEBREW> she'owl (sheh-ole'); or sheol (sheh-ole'); from OT:7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:

KJV - grave, hell, pit.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Are there different levels? Are they talking metaphorically? Looking at David and Jonah's words... could it also be experienced here on earth?

RoadWarrior
Feb 9th 2008, 07:45 PM
Hell in the NT:

NT:1067
NT:1067
<START GREEK>ge/enna
<END GREEK> geena (gheh'-en-nah); of Hebrew origin [OT:1516 and OT:2011]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:

KJV - hell.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

and the "bottomless pit" which is two words:

NT:12
NT:12
<START GREEK>a&busso$
<END GREEK> abussos (ab'-us-sos); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of NT:1037; depthless, i.e. (specially) (infernal) "abyss":

KJV - deep, (bottomless) pit.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:5421
NT:5421
<START GREEK>fre/ar
<END GREEK> phrear (freh'-ar); of uncertain derivation; a hole in the ground (dug for obtaining or holding water or other purposes), i.e. a cistern or well; figuratively, an abyss (as a prison):

KJV - well, pit.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

RevLogos
Feb 9th 2008, 10:13 PM
This is the first time I’ve heard of Wiese. I have not read his book but I did see 4 of the YouTube videos. My “discernment” based on what little I’ve seen so far so far is this.

I do believe Wiese had a vision and he is being honest about what he describes as he understands it. Keep in mind this was not an NDE and that he had not been judged. He was only given a vision. I do not believe anyone can be rescued from hell once sent there after judgment. But Wiese had never been judged.

Wiese does not come across as someone who wanted this role. He does not appear comfortable with public speaking. Having notes is not at all unusual especially for someone not experienced. When speaking in front of a lot of people it is easy to forget certain details you want to express. Some of the little details, like immediately wanting a glass of water, ring true and not made up. The coincidences of meeting with Baxter afterwards ring true.

It does make sense that God would remove his Christian memories while in Hell. With those memories he would not have had the sense of utter hopelessness that God wanted to get across. After all the definition of hell is a separation from God. But he was never truly separated from God.

It is also possible this was not actually hell, but a vision of hell created for him (and for us) so he could see, feel and smell it without actually being there. The true hell may not even be something we can describe. In 1 Cor 2:9 we see heaven is something we cannot imagine. No reason to think hell would be any easier to imagine. God could have given him a representation of it in a way we can understand. I will not presume to know how God gives people visions of things.

I tend to be overly skeptical regarding people who claim to be prophets, or to have visions. The Bible tells us there will be more and more of this as we get closer to the end-times. Compare what Wiese is doing with Deckard the prophet. Deckard comes across like a slick car salesman.

Bling
Mar 24th 2008, 09:14 PM
Don't you have to actually die to heaven or hell ? I know I'm going to heaven but let's talk frank about this. Once you've accepted Christ he will not let you go so I don't believe his dream.

IPet2_9
Mar 24th 2008, 09:26 PM
Wiese's account matches that of Jennifer Perez (I think that's her name?) on several details. Funny thing is, Jennifer didn't die, either. Only in a coma. I read some of Wiese's account before I saw this thread, and this stuff just freaks me out. I can't tell you how many times I have prayed to receive Christ after this.

Sunflower
Mar 25th 2008, 12:36 AM
God uses NDE for people to come back to earth and let people know that heaven and hell are very real. Heaven and Hell is stated in the bible, a good place and bad place for the saved and unsaved, I really don't understand why is it so hard to believe. I guess because people cannot see it with their own eyes, but there is a lot that we as christians cannot see and believe, God for one, Jesus, faith, and so on. Remember Hell is a place that Jesus talked about also.

Warrior4God
Mar 25th 2008, 04:14 AM
We Christians have a faith which is based upon the written and living Word, and none of us have seen Jesus in the flesh, none of us have seen heaven or hell, and yet we all believe in them by faith. That's the way God has ordained it, and if God allowed someone to see any of these things and then remain to live on earth I would think it would be contradictory to the Bible.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think if God wants to allow somebody to briefly enter Heaven or Hell and tell others about their experience, He has the ability to do so. Didn't that happen to the apostle John in Revelation? He saw all kinds of things in Heaven and wrote it down for us to know about. Who's to say God doesn't still occasionally allow people a glimpse into the afterlife? I'm not saying that every person who ever claims to have an out of body experience really had one, but to say none of them can be true is a little hard for me to believe. I don't presume to limit what God can and can't do. That's His prerogative. As far as the individual goes that wrote the book "23 Minutes in Hell," I haven't read the book, so I don't know what to make of him and his claims. However, I may read it, and if I do I will keep an open mind about it.

Zorgblar
Mar 26th 2008, 05:44 AM
I don't know awhile back i made a post alot like this and i said i wasn't sure there as well.So i am just not sure.:dunno:

SpiritualLiberty
Dec 14th 2008, 09:21 PM
Bill Wiese is a liar. He quotes numerous scriptures throughout his book, most of which are completely irrelevant to what he is talking about. He continually grabs short phrases and sentences out the Bible and quotes them without showing you the context of the phrase, which makes it easy for him to read his own assumptions into it (yes, I actually looked up every single scripture he cites). The majority of Christians in modern America do not diligently read their Bibles anymore, which makes them easy prey for this kind of con job. But his bizarre fantastic story outrightly contradicts the Bible many times. Luke 16:27-31 (the Lord's parable of the rich man and Lazarus) says, "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Our Lord Himself is very clear that if men reject the Gospel, and they refuse to listen to those who proclaim the Word of God, they will never be persuaded, even if someone came back from the dead to witness to them—something even more miraculous than Wiese’s alleged experience. Wiese himself specifically says, "One thing I was sure of: if what I had experienced was true, then I should be able to find proof of it in the Bible"; and, "I discovered that there are approximately 150 verses that reveal some aspect of hell, together confirming everything I had experienced." However, he does not even attempt to back up many of his claims from Scripture, such as deformed reptilian demons and big rats and spiders in hell. He cites many scripture about demons attacking people on earth (as do some of the posters on this forum), but he never provides a shred of proof that demons can torment people in hell. And Wiese himself states that if he can't prove it from the Bible, then it is not true. Please see my review of "23 Minutes in Hell" at www.geocities.com/spiritualliberty/23MinutesInHellReview.html (http://www.geocities.com/spiritualliberty/23MinutesInHellReview.html).

moonglow
Dec 14th 2008, 10:06 PM
OK I just watched that and there is extra-Biblical accounts in Bill's testimony of 13 foot reptilian, unsymetrical demons ripping his body apart and crushing his skull in a prison cell! It also interested me how he was consulting his notes alot....if it was me the memories of such an experience would be in the forefront of my mind and on the tip of my tongue, and I would express it with much more passion than he did...but that's him I suppose.

This is why I don't believe him...the detailed description of demons...there is NO scriptures describing what a demon looks like...as soon I heard this, I wrote him off as making it up. Sorry if I offend anyone but really...how can people says he has scriptures to back this up? There is no scriptures on God ever taking someone to hell or showing them visions of hell...yet there are scriptures of God taking some, at least in spirit, to Heaven. He would actually be more believable if this had been a near death experience but the fact it just 'happened' for no apparent reason...well anyone could decide to suddenly have an experience and write a book about it and make lots of money. Sorry I am so cynical...just now a days there are far too many wolves among the sheep.

And BigT is right...there is no scriptures about demons torturing anyone in hell. People can choose to believe and hey if it makes your faith stronger so be it...if it scares you into thinking your loved ones will be tortured horribly forever like this though I would think anyone would struggle with their faith regarding this. As desperate as we can feel for our unsaved loved ones, things like this don't help and neither this or us can force someone to be saved no matter how desperate and frightened we feel. But do know this...no demons will be doing these horrible things to them...

God bless

moonglow
Dec 14th 2008, 10:26 PM
Bill Wiese is a liar. He quotes numerous scriptures throughout his book, most of which are completely irrelevant to what he is talking about. He continually grabs short phrases and sentences out the Bible and quotes them without showing you the context of the phrase, which makes it easy for him to read his own assumptions into it (yes, I actually looked up every single scripture he cites). The majority of Christians in modern America do not diligently read their Bibles anymore, which makes them easy prey for this kind of con job. But his bizarre fantastic story outrightly contradicts the Bible many times. Luke 16:27-31 (the Lord's parable of the rich man and Lazarus) says, "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Our Lord Himself is very clear that if men reject the Gospel, and they refuse to listen to those who proclaim the Word of God, they will never be persuaded, even if someone came back from the dead to witness to them—something even more miraculous than Wiese’s alleged experience. Wiese himself specifically says, "One thing I was sure of: if what I had experienced was true, then I should be able to find proof of it in the Bible"; and, "I discovered that there are approximately 150 verses that reveal some aspect of hell, together confirming everything I had experienced." However, he does not even attempt to back up many of his claims from Scripture, such as deformed reptilian demons and big rats and spiders in hell. He cites many scripture about demons attacking people on earth (as do some of the posters on this forum), but he never provides a shred of proof that demons can torment people in hell. And Wiese himself states that if he can't prove it from the Bible, then it is not true. Please see my review of "23 Minutes in Hell" at www.geocities.com/spiritualliberty/23MinutesInHellReview.html (http://www.geocities.com/spiritualliberty/23MinutesInHellReview.html).

I book marked your website and will read it when I get a chance...all my alarm bells went off the first time I heard this guy speaking on those youtube video's. Why add so much to hell that isn't in the bible when what the bible says is convicting enough? Seems like everyone who has visions of hell have demon's tearing them apart, torturing them and so forth, yet no scriptures for that...

Its like they want to scare people into being saved and for some that works...at least until they find fear doesn't maintain faith through the years and the God of love is something they don't know...:cry:

God bless

Trance
Mar 20th 2009, 05:46 PM
I read Bill Weiss's book, and it was very compelling and frightening, but all the while I did notice some inconsistencies because I always knew that demons and the devil are going to be the chief prisoners of hell, not the leaders of the place. Also, I thought nobody goes to hell until Jesus's final judgement. I thought all the unsaved who die go to a temporary holding place that's milder than hell, hades.

Bill also says that he "knew" that he was about 4,000 miles below the Earth's surface. I am curious though, is that where hell really is? The Bible says that the unsaved will be swallowed up by the earth or something like going into the pit. Is this really true?

RabbiKnife
Mar 20th 2009, 05:56 PM
Jesus tells us that even if one come back from the dead, if they will not already hear the prophets, they will not repent.

Wiese and all his ilk are not teaching truth.

moonglow
Mar 20th 2009, 06:33 PM
I read Bill Weiss's book, and it was very compelling and frightening, but all the while I did notice some inconsistencies because I always knew that demons and the devil are going to be the chief prisoners of hell, not the leaders of the place. Also, I thought nobody goes to hell until Jesus's final judgement. I thought all the unsaved who die go to a temporary holding place that's milder than hell, hades.

Bill also says that he "knew" that he was about 4,000 miles below the Earth's surface. I am curious though, is that where hell really is? The Bible says that the unsaved will be swallowed up by the earth or something like going into the pit. Is this really true?

You know I asked about that here awhile back cause I was hearing more and more Christians saying hell was in the center of the earth...the scripture given is weak. They use a passage in the OT about people and houses falling into a pit in the earth and claim that is hell...:rolleyes: When actually it was an earthquake! A sinkhole. They thought the 'pit' meant hell...which sometimes it is referred too that way...but to say whole houses went to hell...come on. :cool:

Hell contains spirits...its not a place for physical bodies let alone houses.

And yea Hades is where those people on then later during judgment hades and death are thrown into the lake of fire...destroyed. If hell is in the center of the earth then that would mean the center of the earth was yanked out of itself and thrown into the lake of fire...OR it means hades and death are thrown into the center of the earth...YET the bible says God will create a New Heaven and New earth...so how is that going to work? :hmm:


Revelation 20
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Anyway here is a good read on what Hades is vs hell/lake of fire.

One Second After Death (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2244)

God bless

MeerkatMadden
Mar 20th 2009, 08:07 PM
Yes, I believe him.

aliveinchrist
Mar 21st 2009, 03:45 AM
What does the bible teach us about going to hell? Can a person escape from it? If he can go to hell and come back (I'm assuming this is what happened) then God did not make it permanent. If a human can escape hell, then it will in no way hold satan.

Not necessarily. Jesus helped him come back from hell. Jesus won't be helping Satan come back.

I believe the guy. Why would he lie? How could a dream be THAT vivid? That REAL? How could he feel the things EXACTLY as the Bible describes them, if it were a dream? (the darkness, the heat, the pain, the fear)

Why do you people doubt that Jesus would allow him this glimpse? If it helps him testify to others that hell is real, why wouldn't Jesus allow him this?

Athanasius
Mar 21st 2009, 05:00 AM
Not necessarily. Jesus helped him come back from hell. Jesus won't be helping Satan come back.

I believe the guy. Why would he lie? How could a dream be THAT vivid? That REAL? How could he feel the things EXACTLY as the Bible describes them, if it were a dream? (the darkness, the heat, the pain, the fear)

Why do you people doubt that Jesus would allow him this glimpse? If it helps him testify to others that hell is real, why wouldn't Jesus allow him this?

Ever heard of that saying? The best lie is 9/10th's truth? Recounting an account 'vividly' certainly doesn't necessarily speak to its truthfulness.

aliveinchrist
Mar 21st 2009, 06:02 PM
Ever heard of that saying? The best lie is 9/10th's truth? Recounting an account 'vividly' certainly doesn't necessarily speak to its truthfulness.

No, but what about the fact that he experienced things in hell just like how the Bible described it?? I know I couldn't make up a story like that.......

moonglow
Mar 22nd 2009, 02:17 PM
No, but what about the fact that he experienced things in hell just like how the Bible described it?? I know I couldn't make up a story like that.......

Where in the bible does it describe hell like he did? I have never heard of a description of hell like this or demons having bodies or torturing people in hell in the bible? Never read such a thing at all in the bible Can you list the book and chapter that has this description in it so we can all read it? Thanks.

Ever watch the movie Hell Raiser by the way? Of people being tortured in hell by some pretty gruesome looking demons? Clive Barker had the imagination to make this story up. How or why someone would want these horrors in their head to start with, I don't know. Its one movie I truly regret ever seeing...it was sickening. And yes in the movie people have their skin ripped off...torn from limb to limb and many other disgusting things but don't die...cause they are already dead. They are left that way then put back together only to be torn apart again...its horrible. So yes people can make up things. I just don't see this description lining up with the bible.

God bless

Athanasius
Mar 22nd 2009, 09:20 PM
No, but what about the fact that he experienced things in hell just like how the Bible described it?? I know I couldn't make up a story like that.......

I don't recall scripture describing Hell the way Bill Weise has described it.


Where in the bible does it describe hell like he did? I have never heard of a description of hell like this or demons having bodies or torturing people in hell in the bible? Never read such a thing at all in the bible Can you list the book and chapter that has this description in it so we can all read it? Thanks.

Ever watch the movie Hell Raiser by the way? Of people being tortured in hell by some pretty gruesome looking demons? Clive Barker had the imagination to make this story up. How or why someone would want these horrors in their head to start with, I don't know. Its one movie I truly regret ever seeing...it was sickening. And yes in the movie people have their skin ripped off...torn from limb to limb and many other disgusting things but don't die...cause they are already dead. They are left that way then put back together only to be torn apart again...its horrible. So yes people can make up things. I just don't see this description lining up with the bible.

God bless

Lines up with Hell Raiser pretty well.

Ashley274
May 8th 2011, 06:47 AM
I am just now reading this book it's on loan to me ..I agree with Daughter on page on of this thread..I also think the dude is not a liar I think he had a bad dream or a SMALL stroke..even a form of seizure....someone could have put a drug in his dinner drink ...I just do not buy this story at all

ProDeo
May 8th 2011, 10:21 AM
Jesus tells us that even if one come back from the dead, if they will not already hear the prophets, they will not repent.

The Wiese guy and Baxter woman basically are saying that Jesus changed His mind.

RollTide21
May 10th 2011, 06:00 PM
No, but what about the fact that he experienced things in hell just like how the Bible described it?? I know I couldn't make up a story like that.......How would that prove the validity? Maybe he described it just like the Bible described it because HE READ IT IN THE BIBLE.

RockSolid
May 12th 2011, 12:38 AM
:hmm: Was he in Hades or Gehenna?

RabbiKnife
May 12th 2011, 03:38 PM
Neither. He was hallucinating because of the anchovies on his midnight pizza.

RockSolid
May 13th 2011, 06:05 PM
Neither. He was hallucinating because of the anchovies on his midnight pizza.

Yeah, I was trying to be cute. If it was real, Jesus wouldn't have been speaking in KJV and told him he was in "hell". He would have specified.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

steelcurtain76
May 13th 2011, 06:20 PM
I read this book and came to this conclusion...even if he made it all up or if he did have an awful dream that he has very vivid memories of, Hell is worse than what he is describing. I don't think our finite minds can even grasp how terrible that place is going to be.