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David Taylor
Jan 7th 2008, 02:53 PM
This subject was touched on in another thread, and I wanted to take a minute and supply the scriptures that describe this particular divine attribute of Christ, as God the Son, the Creator of all things.

For most of us who are Protestants and Catholics, this attribute has never been in question, for for some sects, this view has not been taught, or is outrightly rejected.

Here are the scriptures, (at least most of them), from which mainstream Protestantism accepts its understanding that Jesus Christ, God the Son, is the Creator.

Jesus Christ, God the Son, as the Creator

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image"




John 1:1-4, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us




I John 1:1
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."





Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God"



Colossians 1:13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself"




Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high"



Hebrews 1:7 "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands"

Psalms 102:25 "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands."




Ephesians 3:8 "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ"




I Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."





Psalms 33:6 "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses."




Jesus Christ, God the Son, Creator of all things.

Stefen
Jan 7th 2008, 05:27 PM
I read through the other thread, it seems like a very touchy subject with many of you so I'll try to tread lightly.

Well Jesus is both God and Man correct? I believe that his humanity was created and that his diety has always existed. Jesus was begotten, but He is also one with the Father and always has been. So His existence as a man was created but His existence as God was not. He came from the Father Who is the one God and is still from the Father and is one with the Father. The Father is in Him and He is in the Father. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Jesus existed in the Father as the Fathers word, which is more then just "words,"and every thing has been created by the word.

John 3
16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten ...

John 10
30I and the Father are one.'

John 15
9Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father...

John 16
28I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'

David Taylor
Jan 7th 2008, 06:39 PM
I read through the other thread, it seems like a very touchy subject with many of you so I'll try to tread lightly.

Well Jesus is both God and Man correct? I believe that his humanity was created and that his diety has always existed. Jesus was begotten, but He is also one with the Father and always has been. So His existence as a man was created but His existence as God was not.


I think the best scripture that shows this is:

Philippians2:5
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth"

This scripture shows us that the 'person' of Jesus Christ, pre-existed as God prior to taking on the form of a servant in the likeness of man.

In other words, Jesus Christ was God eternally, but at a point in time in Bethlehem, God the Son 'robbed' himself in a human body.

He took upon Himself a second nature, one that was of a physical man.

It wasn't that Jesus was created though....He always existed. Rather, at a point within eternity, Jesus took upon Himself another nature/likeness/form when He became born into the physical realm as a human baby boy.

Jesus makes it clear to us on many occassions, that He pre-existed His birth, both in the days of Moses, and the days of Abraham, and beyond.

Here is another example of Jesus Christ, the Word of God, being the Creator of all things.

Psalms 30:4 "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him."

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. "

Ephesians 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."

Stefen
Jan 7th 2008, 10:09 PM
So do you believe that the word was already God's Son before He was born?

Brother Mark
Jan 7th 2008, 11:21 PM
So do you believe that the word was already God's Son before He was born?

Yes. Just as he was slain before the foundations of the world, i.e. before he was born.

David Taylor
Jan 7th 2008, 11:35 PM
So do you believe that the word was already God's Son before He was born?

Well Stefen, does John 1 and 1 John 1 tell us 'the Word' came into being at Bethlehem circa 4 B.C......or does it tell us 'the Word' has always existed....eternally before the Earth itself even was created?





Who was God's Son in 800 B.C. when the book of Psalms was written?

Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. "

Psalms 2:12 "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."




Who was God's Son in 500 B.C. when the book of Daniel was written?

Daniel 3:25 "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."


Answer: Jesus Christ, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.....the one from Bethlehem, who Micah told us: "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. "

Stefen
Jan 7th 2008, 11:41 PM
I believe that the Word is the begging and the end as well and that He has always existed. I don't think you understood the context of my question, but thats ok.:)

David Taylor
Jan 8th 2008, 12:18 AM
I believe that the Word is the begging and the end as well and that He has always existed. I don't think you understood the context of my question, but thats ok.:)

Well maybe you can clarify and help me out a little.:spin:

If the Son of God pre-existed Bethlehem, then I would have to agree and say yes to your prior question: "was already God's Son before He was born?"

If the Son of God did not pre-exist Bethlehem, and only began at Bethlehem....then you have God the Father giving birth to God the Son.

Can't see that being a feasible alternative.

The Word of God, we are told in John 14, became flesh and dwelt among us....the same Word of God from 13 verses earlier who was with God in the Beginning and was God, and by whom all things were made.

So how can we get around the premise that 'the Word' was God the Son, and pre-existed Bethlehem?

...and should we even try to?:D

Stefen
Jan 8th 2008, 12:36 AM
Well maybe you can clarify and help me out a little.:spin:

If the Son of God pre-existed Bethlehem, then I would have to agree and say yes to your prior question: "was already God's Son before He was born?"

If the Son of God did not pre-exist Bethlehem, and only began at Bethlehem....then you have God the Father giving birth to God the Son.

Can't see that being a feasible alternative.

The Word of God, we are told in John 14, became flesh and dwelt among us....the same Word of God from 13 verses earlier who was with God in the Beginning and was God, and by whom all things were made.

So how can we get around the premise that 'the Word' was God the Son, and pre-existed Bethlehem?

...and should we even try to?:D
:spin: Yes I believe Jesus has always existed. I believe Jesus is the word and was with God and was God in the beggining. I also believe that He did not have the identity as being Gods son until He was born of a woman, begotten by the Father. I believe prior to that He was the Word, one with the Father ( in the beggining the Word {Jesus} was with God and was God). I believe when the Word of God became Flesh, that He became the only begotten Son of God. I also believe the Word, who is God, created everything and that the word is now also flesh who we know as Jesus, the lamb slained before the foundations of the eart existed.

So do you understand what I am saying? I do believe Jesus has always exeisted, and that He is God and is the word made flesh.

jeffweeder
Jan 8th 2008, 08:22 AM
Pre-eminence is not pre- existence. The lofty position of Christ was attained through the cross, which is the gospel account, not by any supposed pre-existence of His person which is of no gospel record.


Excuse me.


For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.


"Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. .................................................. ............................

Teke
Jan 8th 2008, 02:42 PM
Orthodox have always properly distinguished between the revealed categories of essence, attribute, and person. It follows that all heresy is some Trinitarian confusion or “category error”. For elaboration, read the Fathers of the Church, especially St. Athanasius the Great, Against the Arians, where the great saint points out the Arians’ wretched impiety in conceiving the essence of God as determined by a “hypostatic property” (the Father creates), thereby calumniating Christ our Lord and the Holy Spirit, who are reduced to extra-essential aeons.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 8th 2008, 05:05 PM
Who has 'properly' interpreted such things is still a point for discussion, hence this dialog. I know some believe that all those who do not follow a particular doctrine are heretics. Even the apostles had disagreements, so slapping the label 'heretic' on that which does not agree with a particular position is quite unnecessary. ;)

God Bless!

Teke
Jan 8th 2008, 06:27 PM
Who has 'properly' interpreted such things is still a point for discussion, hence this dialog. I know some believe that all those who do not follow a particular doctrine are heretics. Even the apostles had disagreements, so slapping the label 'heretic' on that which does not agree with a particular position is quite unnecessary. ;)

God Bless!

I believe you have missed the point of my reference. Explore it and then you tell me. The reference was not to label anyone, but to refer them to a better source which has explored the subject in depth.

For further reference (for those who do not want to go over things which have already been addressed theologically) I offer the following. (bolding done by me)




The controversy between the Orthodox and Arians was not about who the Logos is in the Old and New Testament, but about what the Logos is and what His relationship is to the Father. The Orthodox insisted that the Logos is uncreated and unchangeable, having always existed from the Father, who by nature generates the Logos before the ages. The Arians insisted that this same Logos is a changeable creature, deriving His existence from non-being before the ages by the will of the Father.

Thus the basic question was, did the prophets see in God’s uncreated glory a created Logos, or an uncreated Logos, a Logos who is God by nature and, therefore, has all the energies and powers of God by nature, or a God by grace who has some, but not all, the energies of the Father and then only by grace and not by nature.

Both Orthodox and Arians agreed in principle that, if the Logos has every power and energy of the Father by nature, then He is uncreated. If not, He is a creature.

Since the Bible is a witness of whom and what the prophets and apostles saw in the glory of the Father, the Bible itself will reveal whether or not the Logos has all the energies and powers of the Father by nature. Thus, we will know whether the prophets and apostles saw a created or an uncreated Logos oμοούσιος with the Father.

Once can see clearly how, for the Fathers, the con-substantiality of the Logos with the Father is not only the experience of the apostles and saints, but also of the prophets.

One of the most amazing things in doctrinal history is the fact that both Arians and Orthodox use both the Old and New Testaments indiscriminately. The argument is very simple. They make a list of all the powers and energies of the Father. They do the same for the Son. Then they compare them to see if they are identical or not. The important thing is for them to be not similar, but identical.

Parallel to this, both Arians and Orthodox agree against the Sabellians and Samosatenes that the Father and Son have individual hypostatic properties which are not common, although they do not completely agree on what these are. When the controversy is extended into the question of the Holy Spirit, the exact same method of theologizing is used. Whatever powers and energies the Father and Son have in common, the Holy Spirit must also have both in common and by nature, in order to be God by nature.

However, parallel to this argumentative process is the personal experience of those living spiritual masters who themselves reach theoria, as we saw expounded by Saint Gregory [Nazianzus] above. This experience verifies or certifies the patristic interpretation of the Bible, which witnesses to the uncreatedness of the Logos and the Holy Spirit and their oneness nature with the Father and the identity of their uncreated glory, rule, grace, will, etc. This personal experience of the glory of God also certifies the biblical teaching that there is absolutely no similarity between the created and the uncreated. This means also that there can be no uncreated universals of which creatures are supposedly copies. Each individual creature is dependent upon the uncreated glory of God, which is, on the one hand, absolutely simple, yet indivisibly divided among individual creatures. All of God is present in each and every energy simultaneously. This the Fathers know by experience, not by speculation.

John Romanides, The Filioque, Kleronomia, 7 (1975), 285.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 8th 2008, 06:55 PM
I believe you have missed the point of my reference. Explore it and then you tell me. The reference was not to label anyone, but to refer them to a better source which has explored the subject in depth.

For further reference (for those who do not want to go over things which have already been addressed theologically) I offer the following. (bolding done by me)I apologize if the wording of your previous post was misunderstood. :blushhap: I agree with the latter process in the quoted text.

God Bless!