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Allegra
Jan 9th 2008, 08:42 PM
The traditional view of this event says this is in the future.
But the antique view(which I have nicknamed preterist-bc it relies on the inspired writings of Scripture) says this occurred in 70AD.(at the 3rd & final destruction Of Jerusalem & the "end of the age "(GR. aeon) or Old covenant/Jewish age)

I will try to answer any "hard questions" anyone may have afterwards.
Where to begin? Oh Lordy, I will start on this post with some references from Daniel.
For the record, I do not believe any doctrine that may be traditional, but holds to a profound hope that is in essence saying "I must hope & wait for the end & destruction of the "world" (which at that time Jesus is supposed to return) That is, imho, doing an injustice to my children, & any future generations to have a life in this world. And it also teaches that our believing, deceased family members, & prior generations post AD70, have not received their glorious state upon their death.

In Daniel 7, the fourth beast was from the Roman empire. 10 kings+ "little horn" was to arise from the fourth kingdom.
Also in Dan 2:40-45 the fourth kingdom (which corresponds with Dan.7) "In the times of those kings[Roman emperors], the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people." We can see that this kingdom was the kingdom of Christ. The Roman empire ruled the land when Christ came (the first advent)

Dan.7:22," The saints took possession of the kingdom," is the same phrase as 7:18-"but the saints of the Highest one will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever and ever." This is speaking of the kingdom of God.

Look at the words in Dan.7:7-14: (NKJV)
7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.
Vision of the Ancient of Days

9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan7:7-14&version=50#fen-NKJV-21938a)] was seated,
And the books were opened.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 “ I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.Footnotes:
Daniel 7:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan7:7-14&version=50#en-NKJV-21938) Or judgmentAlright, who was "little horn?" Vespasian was the Roman emperor in power at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in AD70.(AD69-79) His son was Titus, he was made a military leader.
Now we can parallel this fourth kingdom to the beasts in Revelation.
Specifically, Rev.13's 1st beast (out of the sea) was in Hebrew 666. This was emperor Nero Caesar (AD54-68)
Nero began the persecution of the saints in 64 AD. He put to death St. Paul & St. Peter. He arranged with the upcoming Vespasian to incorporate calvary to fight the war of the Jewish rebellion.(These prophetic symbols are seen in the book of Revelation)
The Great Tribulation occurred from AD Feb 67-70 (Sept)

Now, refer back to Daniel 7 again. Do you still think the book of Revelation is future?
I have studied on "the end times" intensely. I can show you that the general resurrection has taken place & Christ's Second Coming occurred.

He already came like "a thief in the night" & to vindicate/ glorify & reward OT & N.T. saints.

What say you? any agree with my theology?

Fenris
Jan 9th 2008, 08:57 PM
But the antique view(which I have nicknamed preterist-bc it relies on the inspired writings of Scripture) says this occurred in 70AD.(at the 3rd & final destruction Of Jerusalem & the "end of the age "(GR. aeon) or Old covenant/Jewish age)

Third destruction? There were only two Jewish Temples. :hmm:

threebigrocks
Jan 9th 2008, 09:16 PM
What say you? any agree with my theology?

Why do we still die if this is eternity? :hmm:

RoadWarrior
Jan 9th 2008, 09:21 PM
Third destruction? There were only two Jewish Temples. :hmm:

Hi Fenris,

I seem to remember there being 3.

1. Built by Solomon
2. Rebuilt after the return from Babylon
3. Built by Herod.

Am I wrong? Thanks.

Teke
Jan 9th 2008, 11:00 PM
I'm not sure what your trying to prove with scripture Allegra. I could say the dead aren't walking around in new bodies, but you'd counter with an answer like their new bodies are spiritual. Since we don't know if the new body is sensual like this one, a case can't really be made on the matter.

In Orthodoxy we don't put limits on God, so anything is possible. The final judgment can be anytime, as the "end times" are all the time. Which is why we are to be ready all the time. That's about as dogmatic as it gets.:P

There are a great many desert fathers and monastics who speak of the after life and the experience of it. From that information, the body is not sensual as this one is.
In Orthodoxy there is a tradition of praying for the departed for forty days after their death. It is believed they go through, what I will call an adjustment in that period. This is also why a dying Christian is told, if they don't already know, that they will not die, but they will go through something. One description uses the term "toll houses".

It is a fascinating subject nonetheless. :)

Teke
Jan 9th 2008, 11:03 PM
Why do we still die if this is eternity? :hmm:

We could liken that question to why Revelations ends with the good and bad altogether (Rev. 22:15) and not only good people......

Allegra
Jan 10th 2008, 12:32 AM
Third destruction? There were only two Jewish Temples. :hmm:
I was careful not to say temple when I said 3 destructions of Jerusalem if you look closer.
The first destruction of Jerusalem (and Solomon's temple) was by the Babylonian king-Nebuchadnezzar.
The second destruction of Jerusalem was by Antiochus Epiphanes in about 163BC. He defiled the temple. It had to be cleansed of the Hellenistic filth for 2300 days. It's written in Daniel 8.
The third time Jerusalem was destroyed(but the same post-exilic temple- rejuvenated by Herod the Great) was the final time in 70AD.

Yes, I agree. There were 2 temples.

Allegra
Jan 10th 2008, 12:42 AM
Why do we still die if this is eternity? :hmm:
This isn't eternity (or heaven) 3br.
We have life eternal in Christ -but we still must die once. Christ defeated Satan & spiritual death. That was from Adam's sin.
There is no 2nd death for us. We go to be glorified with Christ immediately upon our physical death. Just like "my buddy" St. Paul said in 1&2 Corinthians-since that happened for him & the other 1st century believers(but not until 70AD) at his last or 7th trumpet. But it's all individual now since 70AD+.
The unbelievers have no lines & no waiting in Hades for resurrection either. It's straight to Lake of Fire.

Allegra
Jan 10th 2008, 01:19 AM
I'm not sure what your trying to prove with scripture Allegra. I could say the dead aren't walking around in new bodies, but you'd counter with an answer like their new bodies are spiritual. Since we don't know if the new body is sensual like this one, a case can't really be made on the matter.You must mean you don't understand my points from the little amount of scripture I've given so far? I understand that. I have read more than a dozen books including a couple history books on this related eschatology doctrine. It didn't all jump at me at once. I was only seeking the truth. And from the best teachers, imo.


In Orthodoxy we don't put limits on God, so anything is possible. The final judgment can be anytime, as the "end times" are all the time. Which is why we are to be ready all the time. That's about as dogmatic as it gets.:POk that's a given about God. But you know, according to the Bible, "end times" is not "the end of the world & human history"
Eschatology is the study of "last things" but it is the last things of God's plan for the salvation of mankind. That's what Revelation is showing: God's plan of good defeating evil.
And when was this "end?" Or Last Day or Great Day of God? This was the end of the age. This word is in the Greek "age" or aeon, not "world", like some modern so-called updated Bible versions have it written.
The "end of the age" was the end of Judaism. In 70AD. When "the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." (Daniel 12:7b)
The OT saints (remnant) were faithful & did not break the old covenant.
Thus all Israel (the remnant seed & the new gentile Christians) would be saved. (See Romans 11:26) And they were. Praise God!


There are a great many desert fathers and monastics who speak of the after life and the experience of it. From that information, the body is not sensual as this one is.
In Orthodoxy there is a tradition of praying for the departed for forty days after their death. It is believed they go through, what I will call an adjustment in that period. This is also why a dying Christian is told, if they don't already know, that they will not die, but they will go through something. One description uses the term "toll houses". You know, I don't know what you mean here except that it brings to mind the Corinthians who became believers but still baptized for the dead. Nothing wrong with that. Paul was trying to get a message across that Jesus did rise from the dead, and their loved ones "who were now dying & they were afraid they would miss His coming" would not rise. So Paul spoke to them where they were at, or could understand. That he had full faith that the dead in Christ will rise!

threebigrocks
Jan 10th 2008, 03:12 AM
This isn't eternity (or heaven) 3br.
We have life eternal in Christ -but we still must die once. Christ defeated Satan & spiritual death. That was from Adam's sin.
There is no 2nd death for us. We go to be glorified with Christ immediately upon our physical death. Just like "my buddy" St. Paul said in 1&2 Corinthians-since that happened for him & the other 1st century believers(but not until 70AD) at his last or 7th trumpet. But it's all individual now since 70AD+.
The unbelievers have no lines & no waiting in Hades for resurrection either. It's straight to Lake of Fire.

Then we must be in hell if Christ has already come again. Once our body dies, we can no longer sin. I don't know of anyone who is still on this earth that is sinless.

What do you mean by second death? When you say we go, how is that - body and spirit or just spirit or just body?

Allegra
Jan 10th 2008, 05:29 AM
Then we must be in hell if Christ has already come again. Once our body dies, we can no longer sin. I don't know of anyone who is still on this earth that is sinless.
I'm not understanding this reasoning. What does Christ coming again have to do with us being in hell?
And he returned to consummate salvation for those waiting for Him in the 1st century AD, not us, we aren't dead yet. Hebrews was written, let's say 62 AD-but before AD70.
Hebrews 9:26-28
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

And right, we are not sinless. But look at what 1John 1:7-2:2 says:
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 2

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the whole world.

What do you mean by second death? When you say we go, how is that - body and spirit or just spirit or just body?Well, what did Jesus mean by "the second death"?
Look at Rev.20:4-6 for example:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.20:4-6;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31037a)] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
OK, this is describing, let's say, the Apostles. They reigned as priests with & for Christ in their earthly life. Now they are shown to be glorified after that death.
The second death is the Lake of Fire. (Rev.20:14-15)
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Ok. But one has to take this time period written into consideration. Since AD70, Abraham's "bosom" & Hades emptied. The first went to glory in heaven & Hades went to the Lake of Fire. So now, there is judgment immediately upon death. You know- up or down. Do the wicked die twice? Well, they die physically once (as all do) And bc they do not have the Holy Spirit as a deposit for eternal life, they die again in the sense that they do not live again in a glorious state in heaven.

Spirit & body. It isn't some ethereal spirit. Angels have substance. Jesus said at the resurrection we would be like angels in heaven.
Also, to me, it's like St. Paul describes our glorified bodies in 1Cor.15:35-38:
A Glorious Body


35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

We have the Holy Spirit as a "seed" or deposit. Praise God!

Fenris
Jan 10th 2008, 01:51 PM
Hi Fenris,

I seem to remember there being 3.

1. Built by Solomon
2. Rebuilt after the return from Babylon
3. Built by Herod.

Am I wrong? Thanks.
The Temple built after the return from Babylon was not destroyed. Herod simply expanded on it.

The destruction of two temples was actually inferred to many times in the Tanach. For example, Isaiah 40 begins with the words "Console, console My people..." One consolation for the first temple and one consolation for the second temple.

Fenris
Jan 10th 2008, 01:54 PM
I was careful not to say temple when I said 3 destructions of Jerusalem if you look closer.
The first destruction of Jerusalem (and Solomon's temple) was by the Babylonian king-Nebuchadnezzar.
The second destruction of Jerusalem was by Antiochus Epiphanes in about 163BC. He defiled the temple. It had to be cleansed of the Hellenistic filth for 2300 days. It's written in Daniel 8.

Hmm. I don't know if Antiochus destroyed the city. It is true that he defiled the temple, but I don't think that it is the same thing.

Teke
Jan 10th 2008, 02:06 PM
You must mean you don't understand my points from the little amount of scripture I've given so far? I understand that. I have read more than a dozen books including a couple history books on this related eschatology doctrine. It didn't all jump at me at once. I was only seeking the truth. And from the best teachers, imo.

I've studied it a great deal also. Which is why I said that with scripture, I know what you will counter with using scripture. IOW it is futile at some point to continue to speculate with scripture. One can only go so far on this subject using scripture.


Ok that's a given about God. But you know, according to the Bible, "end times" is not "the end of the world & human history"

Yes, I understand, which is why I posted what I did.


Eschatology is the study of "last things" but it is the last things of God's plan for the salvation of mankind.

Agreed.


That's what Revelation is showing: God's plan of good defeating evil.
And when was this "end?" Or Last Day or Great Day of God? This was the end of the age. This word is in the Greek "age" or aeon, not "world", like some modern so-called updated Bible versions have it written.

I agree, but Revelation is also liturgical which makes it eternal and linked with the cosmos as man is.
Also, as I pointed out, the question of good defeating evil comes in at the end of Revelation where it clearly states there is still evil outside the good.


The "end of the age" was the end of Judaism. In 70AD. When "the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." (Daniel 12:7b)
The OT saints (remnant) were faithful & did not break the old covenant.
Thus all Israel (the remnant seed & the new gentile Christians) would be saved. (See Romans 11:26) And they were. Praise God!

Amen.



You know, I don't know what you mean here except that it brings to mind the Corinthians who became believers but still baptized for the dead. Nothing wrong with that. Paul was trying to get a message across that Jesus did rise from the dead, and their loved ones "who were now dying & they were afraid they would miss His coming" would not rise. So Paul spoke to them where they were at, or could understand. That he had full faith that the dead in Christ will rise!

I wasn't using scripture and being literal, but speculative. . The risen body is a new creation not made with hands, meaning man doesn't have anything to do with it's creation such as pro creation.
So my point is, that even if your right about scripture, you have no other proof of such. Which is why I can agree with what you've put forth about scripture, but there is no evidence of such as risen bodies, except in other historical church documents.

Bottom line, even if you do prove your point with scripture, what do you have to further the premise. That is what I'm getting at. I've agreed with you, now what. Where do you go from there....

Allegra
Jan 10th 2008, 04:56 PM
So my point is, that even if your right about scripture, you have no other proof of such. Which is why I can agree with what you've put forth about scripture, but there is no evidence of such as risen bodies, except in other historical church documents.

Bottom line, even if you do prove your point with scripture, what do you have to further the premise. That is what I'm getting at. I've agreed with you, now what. Where do you go from there....
Well Teke,
I will be as literal as possible. Today's popular interpretations of "end times" have run amok. Preachers shouldn't be preaching on "end times" in the 1st place, imo. Now it seems they have committed themselves to a certain doctrine,etc. I think they ran out of any exciting or sensational teaching to hold their audience. It's not entirely their fault. They may have believed their dogma bc of the lack of documentation, misunderstanding & confusion from the early Apostolic church fathers following the inspired writers (70AD-120AD) Then there were the heresies that threatened the church. the 2nd century AD (such as the Ebionite heresy) So, leaders, like Polycarp, had other concerns- immediate concerns. So, I believe, now we need preterist teachers bc of what seems to be serious eschatological errors from futuristic preachers,( which I think affects quality of lives.)
But what happened to the apostles & disciples who supposedly would have lived to the time of the coming of the Lord? I find it very hard to believe that any of the apostled or their faithful disciples (e.g. Timothy, Titus, Silas, Luke, Mark, Gaius, Aristarchus, AND the apostle John) lived beyond 70AD. It believe, like some of preterists, that they were "raptured. The concept of a rapture is not really foreign to the Bible. Remember Enoch(Gen 5:24) Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. Others-Elijah was "taken away" Philip disappeared from one place to another in Acts.
Anyway, my point is that I do , & I will, prove Scripture with my theology.
Scripture is the best & only proof to reconcile & uninspired writings with.(history,etc.)
So, I love a challenge! Ready to "Rock" & roll!

Here's something to consider. I have read this fella's book (Ed Stevens)
QUESTION: Did Jesus Christ return in AD 70 without fanfare?
ANSWER: I wouldn't exactly call the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 an event “without fanfare.” Josephus mentions some loud voices and trumpet sounds being heard, as well as angelic armies being visible in the sky over Judea at the time of the Jewish revolt (AD 66-70). Jews today still commemorate it in some fashion in almost every joyous occasion they celebrate (the shattered goblet at Jewish weddings, and a special fast day every year in August (Tisha b'Av) are two ways in which they still remember the destruction). Rabbi Davis (from White Plains NY), in his opening remarks of his (1978?) lecture on “Post-Biblical Judaism,” commented that he would begin the study of post-Biblical Judaism with “the end.” Then he said, he would begin with AD 70., because AD 70 was “the end of Biblical Judaism” and the beginning of rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism. Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, “shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God’s presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds. -Edward E. Stevens

Teke
Jan 10th 2008, 07:23 PM
Well your right Allegra, that many shouldn't be preaching on end times.
Eschatology was meant to be understood from the Jewish framework it comes from. Without the Eucharistic and liturgical aspect it simply becomes a scholastic work, such as we see in modern times, using scripture to try to define that which is ineffable.

From an Orthodox theologian,
"His teaching, however, and especially his life and work, cannot be properly understood without a clear reference to the eschatological expectations of Judaism. Without entering into the complexities of Jewish eschatology, we can very briefly say, that at the time of Jesus of Nazareth the core of these expectations was the idea of the coming of a Messiah, who in the “last days” of history (“the Eschaton”) would establish his kingdom by calling all the dispersed and afflicted people of God into one place to become one body united around him. As it was expressed in the prophetic tradition of the Judaism (Joel 3:1; Is 2:2, 59:21; Ez 36:24 etc.), the start of the eschatological period will be sound by the gathering of all the nations, and by the descent of God’s Spirit upon the sons and daughters of God. A statement in the Gospel of John - generally overlooked in modern biblical scholarship - about the role of the Messiah is extremely important. In that statement the author of the 4th Gospel interprets the words of the Jewish High Priest by affirming that “he prophesied that Jesus should die...not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.” (11:51-52)

Throughout the Gospel writings (synoptic and johannine alike) Christ clearly identifies himself with this Messiah. One can see this in the various Messianic titles he chose for himself, or at least as witnessed by the most primitive Christian tradition (“Son of man”, “Son of God”, “Servant of God” etc., most of which had a collective meaning, hence the Christology of “corporate personality”). We see it as well in the parables of the Kingdom, which summarize his teaching: i.e. that his coming inaugurated a new world order, the world of the Kingdom of God; we also see this idea in the Lord's Prayer, and above all in his conscious acts, and most significantly in the selection of twelve disciples, signifying the establishment of a new eschatological dodekaphylon (twelve tribes) of the New Israel. In short, Christ identified himself with the Messiah of the Eschaton, who would be the center of the gathering of the dispersed people of God.

It was on this radical eschatological teaching of the Historical Jesus about the Kingdom of God (which as modern biblical research has shown moves dialectically between the “already” and the “not yet”; in other words, it begins already in the present, but will be completed in its final, authentic and glorious form in the eschaton) that the early Church developed her theology, her ecclesiology, her spirituality, but also her mission.

From the writings of Paul, John, and Luke, in addition to other early Christian literature, we see this teaching reflected in images of the Church as the Body of Christ, as Vine, and especially as Unity. St. Paul the apostle, in particular, was absolutely convinced that all who have believed in Christ have been incorporated into His body through Baptism. Obviously their incorporation into the one people of God was completed with the Eucharist, a significant identity act which was seen not as a mystery cult but as a manifestation (more precisely a foretaste) of the expected eschatological Kingdom. The 4th Gospel developed even further this radical eschatological teaching in regard to the unity of the people of God around Christ and their incorporation into Christ's body through the Eucharist above all - and by “radical” I mean, among other things, a clear rejection of the ethnocentric, i.e. judeocentric, dimension of eschatology."
Prof. Petros Vassiliadis' at Aristotle University "Homage to Dumitru Staniloae

Allegra
Jan 10th 2008, 09:31 PM
Well your right Allegra, that many shouldn't be preaching on end times.
Eschatology was meant to be understood from the Jewish framework it comes from. Without the Eucharistic and liturgical aspect it simply becomes a scholastic work, such as we see in modern times, using scripture to try to define that which is ineffable.

From an Orthodox theologian,
"His teaching, however, and especially his life and work, cannot be properly understood without a clear reference to the eschatological expectations of Judaism. Without entering into the complexities of Jewish eschatology, we can very briefly say, that at the time of Jesus of Nazareth the core of these expectations was the idea of the coming of a Messiah, who in the “last days” of history (“the Eschaton”) would establish his kingdom by calling all the dispersed and afflicted people of God into one place to become one body united around him. As it was expressed in the prophetic tradition of the Judaism (Joel 3:1; Is 2:2, 59:21; Ez 36:24 etc.), the start of the eschatological period will be sound by the gathering of all the nations, and by the descent of God’s Spirit upon the sons and daughters of God. A statement in the Gospel of John - generally overlooked in modern biblical scholarship - about the role of the Messiah is extremely important. In that statement the author of the 4th Gospel interprets the words of the Jewish High Priest by affirming that “he prophesied that Jesus should die...not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.” (11:51-52)

Throughout the Gospel writings (synoptic and johannine alike) Christ clearly identifies himself with this Messiah. One can see this in the various Messianic titles he chose for himself, or at least as witnessed by the most primitive Christian tradition (“Son of man”, “Son of God”, “Servant of God” etc., most of which had a collective meaning, hence the Christology of “corporate personality”). We see it as well in the parables of the Kingdom, which summarize his teaching: i.e. that his coming inaugurated a new world order, the world of the Kingdom of God; we also see this idea in the Lord's Prayer, and above all in his conscious acts, and most significantly in the selection of twelve disciples, signifying the establishment of a new eschatological dodekaphylon (twelve tribes) of the New Israel. In short, Christ identified himself with the Messiah of the Eschaton, who would be the center of the gathering of the dispersed people of God.

It was on this radical eschatological teaching of the Historical Jesus about the Kingdom of God (which as modern biblical research has shown moves dialectically between the “already” and the “not yet”; in other words, it begins already in the present, but will be completed in its final, authentic and glorious form in the eschaton) that the early Church developed her theology, her ecclesiology, her spirituality, but also her mission.

From the writings of Paul, John, and Luke, in addition to other early Christian literature, we see this teaching reflected in images of the Church as the Body of Christ, as Vine, and especially as Unity. St. Paul the apostle, in particular, was absolutely convinced that all who have believed in Christ have been incorporated into His body through Baptism. Obviously their incorporation into the one people of God was completed with the Eucharist, a significant identity act which was seen not as a mystery cult but as a manifestation (more precisely a foretaste) of the expected eschatological Kingdom. The 4th Gospel developed even further this radical eschatological teaching in regard to the unity of the people of God around Christ and their incorporation into Christ's body through the Eucharist above all - and by “radical” I mean, among other things, a clear rejection of the ethnocentric, i.e. judeocentric, dimension of eschatology."
Prof. Petros Vassiliadis' at Aristotle University "Homage to Dumitru Staniloae
Hi Teke,
I've only skimmed over your post. I will have to continue later. My first daughter(I have only 2 children) is coming home. So the room's prepared(it has never been changed) She's in-between now-waiting for acceptance to the Grad school at U.F. for Veterinary med. But I have to go bc she's on her way (with the 2 J.Russell terriers!) I have to prepare my cat's room!

Anyway, what some commentators (scholars & the like) "neglect" to reconcile is the relationship of Israel, the Resurrection, & the millennium.
Your (or his) passages in Joel, Ezek.,even in Zechariah, Isaiah, Daniel- I can show how they were ALL fulfilled in Christ, the Messiah. Some in the 1st advent, some passages relating to the coming of the great & DREADFUL day of the Lord (Mal.4:5) and some of the OT prophets speak about "the New Jerusalem" not an earthly millennium.
Yes, the promise of the Resurrection belonged to Old Covenant Israel. But the end of that age was AD70. Dan.12:2-13.
Since John was predicting the end of the "millennium" or the "end of the age" as Jesus spoke of, the end of the Old covenant world (Israel) was at the end of the "millennium, it was "at hand" The 144,000 were the remnant of those faithful to the Old covenant. They weren't "covenant breakers" They weren't cursed personally.
We can see this with the opening of the seals in Rev. This all has to do with Israel & the book that Daniel was to shut up until the end time- was now being opened in the visions of John bc it was "near time"
I can continue a bit later with answering your post.
:)

Teke
Jan 10th 2008, 10:40 PM
I understand, family is most important. :hug:

The article actually agrees with you. From an eschatological point of view.
Maybe some background/history of eschatology and it's development will clarify.



.....The historical dimension, therefore, of eschatology through its eucharistic application is an inseparable part of the Christian faith. Even what we call Holy Tradition is, according to John Meyendorff, “the history of the right choices made by human beings confronted by the prophetic word of God, responding correctly in the concrete historical circumstances of their time.” Even the ascetic dimension, so important an element in Staniloae’s theological work, is a moral and theological principle closely related to the eucharistic experience of the Church as its sine qua non, and the guiding principle of each faithful towards the others (i.e. the world) and the ultimate Other (i.e. God), certainly not an individualistic virtue.

This initial horizontal historical eschatology, which identifies the Church not by what it is in the present, but by what it will become in the Eschaton, has had a certain bearing upon the social life of the Church: her mission was seen as the dynamic journey of the people of God as a whole towards the Eschaton, with the Eucharist as the point of departure. Here we had a perfect synthesis and a dialectical presence of “history” and “eschatology”. Indeed, the Church has always believed that the "New Jerusalem," the Kingdom to come, was not only a gift of God, but also a seal and a fulfillment of all the positive, creative efforts of humankind to "cooperate" (synergy) with the Creator throughout the entire process of history. This is why, when the Roman state accepted Christianity, the Church welcomed the opportunity and the responsibility that fell to her, in spite of all the risks and temptations it entailed.

No doubt, from the very first days of the Church's life this horizontal-historical eschatology was interwoven with a vertical one, which put the emphasis on a more personal understanding of salvation, which of course had a bearing upon social life and responsibility. From the time of the St. Paul the apostle e.g. this personalization became quite evident in his justification by faith theology. No matter for what reasons,] from the time of St. Paul there has been a shift of the center of gravity from the (eucharistic) experience to the (Christian) message, from eschatology to Christology (and further and consequently to soteriology), from the event (the Kingdom of God), to the bearer and center of this event ((Christ, and more precisely his sacrifice on the cross). However, the Eucharist (the theia koinonia) always remained the sole expression of the Church’s identity. However, this vertical-soteriological view was always understood within the context of the horizontal-eschatological perspective as supplemental and complementary. This is why the liturgical experience of the early Church was incomprehensible without its social dimension (see Acts 2:42ff., 1 Cor 11:1ff., Heb 13: 10-16; Justin, 1 Apology 67; Irenaeus, Adver. Her. 18:1, etc.). ..........


John Meyendorff is used to distinguish three types of eschatology in Church life, which are directly relevant for the Christian attitude toward the world and which qualify all aspects of Christian ethics. The first two are distorted versions of the authentic traditional eschatology, although they too have some point of reference in Church history.

First the apocalyptic version of eschatology. According to this version the Kingdom of God is coming soon, and therefore there isn’t anything to expect from history. Christians can do nothing to improve human reality. No real mission or social responsibility or culture is possible or even desirable. God is seen alone as the Lord of history, acting without any cooperation or synergy (cf. 1 Cor 3:9). The New Jerusalem is expected to come from heaven all prepared (Rev 21:2), and we have nothing to contribute to it. A view rejected by the ancient Church, allows only repentance, ascetic life to combat the passions.

The second version, which stands in opposition to the first, is the humanistic or optimistic eschatology. This eschatology has an optimistic understanding of history, and has been dominant in Western society since the time of the Enlightenment. In the twentieth century in its Marxist form it has also spread to the East and even the far East, to China. In the Orthodox realm this kind of eschatology has taken the form of a revival of the old paradigm of the Byzantine synthesis, this time in the narrow limits of nationalistic religious entities: Holy Russia, Great Serbia, the chosen Greek Orthodoxy etc. are some expressions, which taken even further envisage a dangerous development of an Orthodox axis, which will conquer the faithless, or even heretic, West!

The third type of eschatology he called conditional or prophetic eschatology. It is the only acceptable type of eschatology, and it is based on the biblical concept of prophecy, which in both the Old and the New Testaments does not simply forecast the future or announce the inevitable, but also places humans before an option, a choice between two types of personal or social behavior. The people of God are free to choose, but the prophet has informed them of the consequences.

Of course all this depends on the Messiah coming, the time of His coming is the Eschaton. IOW that is the only way to know that the end has come. This is also the Jewish understanding of Messianic prophecy, as I understand.

For clarification of your view, let me ask you, do you view the Resurrection as the second coming and the Incarnation as the first? The first for the call to prepare for the coming Kingdom, and the second for that Kingdom to begin in the Eucharist of the Church?

threebigrocks
Jan 11th 2008, 01:55 AM
This isn't eternity (or heaven) 3br.
We have life eternal in Christ -but we still must die once. Christ defeated Satan & spiritual death. That was from Adam's sin.
There is no 2nd death for us. We go to be glorified with Christ immediately upon our physical death. Just like "my buddy" St. Paul said in 1&2 Corinthians-since that happened for him & the other 1st century believers(but not until 70AD) at his last or 7th trumpet. But it's all individual now since 70AD+.
The unbelievers have no lines & no waiting in Hades for resurrection either. It's straight to Lake of Fire.


What I'm getting at is that if Christ has already been here twice, we would have gone through the Great Throne Judgement and deemed worthy or not, been reunited with our resurrected bodies, and there would be peace in heaven on earth. We would all be together in the very presence of God.

I am quite aware of the nature of sin, and that we are to die once to the flesh here and now because of Christ in order to have our bodies resurrected after they die after our judgement and reunited with our spirits to bring our physical and spiritual selves together as a perfect soul. It is then that we are saved and redeemed as a whole, perfect being.

Thing is, I have not been judged, there is still plenty of evil that surrounds us all in this world, and I see no physical presence of Christ which we are all told that nobody on the face of the earth will miss. I have not yet seen God. I still sin because my flesh has not died and my soul has not been taken up to the Lord. I still struggle. So do all of you who are here.

On that note, how can you say that Christ has already come again when not all prophecy has been fufilled and we still struggle against the flesh in which our spirit must still reside until either we die or Christ does indeed come again. He doesn't come three times. He only comes twice. Now, the days in which we live, is the advent in which we wait and prepaire.

Allegra
Jan 11th 2008, 05:26 AM
[quote]What I'm getting at is that if Christ has already been here twice, we would have gone through the Great Throne Judgement and deemed worthy or not, been reunited with our resurrected bodies, and there would be peace in heaven on earth. We would all be together in the very presence of God.Well, I disagree with that premise. "We", 2,000 years later were not who went through the Great Throne Judgment. Also in Rev.20:4,6, is explaining the first Christian martyrs who were raised, & glorified at the 7th trumpet.
The 7th trumpet is also parallel with judgment day(one big resurrection-Rev 20"-The Great Throne Judgment. Here is describing those who were waiting in Hades for the Resurrection hope.(Those in the Book of Life) This is clearly & awesomely seen in Daniel 12
Prophecy of the End Time

1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

This happens at the end of the Apocalypse.(in Revelation)
Do you know the history of the Great Tribulation? Do you know who was Mystery Babylon in Revelation?
It is about the destruction of the harlot(Jerusalem)
What did Jesus say on the Mt.of Olives? And do you understand every single one of His parables also which relate to the Resurrection & Judgment?
The most underrated verse, yet close to being the most powerful comes in Luke 21:22
22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
What's Jesus referring to here? The destruction of Jerusalem & the Temple!
Luke 41-44
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

And if you read the whole Olivet discourse (in the synoptic gospels ) you will find that Jesus returns after the tribulation. In Matthew you'll see a more Hebrew description bc he wrote to a Hebrew audience. In Luke though, who was a Gentile, wrote to a more Gentile audience.
And who & where does it say there's suppose to be peace on this sin-filled earth after Jesus returned? No, my friend, that's the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem we all will experience upon death. We will be in glory. There's no more "group resurrection."
We are in the Kingdom-the everlasting kingdom now. That part is spiritual. We enjoy the blessings here & now through faith in Christ.
But the "New Jerusalem, the mother of us all, is the eternal state. We don't find that complete fulfillment until the "next life"


Thing is, I have not been judged, there is still plenty of evil that surrounds us all in this world, and I see no physical presence of Christ which we are all told that nobody on the face of the earth will miss. I have not yet seen God. I still sin because my flesh has not died and my soul has not been taken up to the Lord. I still struggle. So do all of you who are here. I agree, we are not perfect. And also we are still supposed to pray for the "lost"
Sometimes though, like on this one "secular" religious site I was on, I kept repeating this verse to myself from Revelation 22:11 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

On that note, how can you say that Christ has already come again when not all prophecy has been fufilled and we still struggle against the flesh in which our spirit must still reside until either we die or Christ does indeed come again. He doesn't come three times. He only comes twice. Now, the days in which we live, is the advent in which we wait and prepaire.Well. I'm sorry, but I disagree, I believe ALL prophecy has been fulfilled. We have Jesus' teachings & the Holy Spirit to guide us in our walk.
That's right it was written for only a second time. I believe Jesus returned as lightning goes from the east to west, in 70AD, after the Great Tribulation. 3 1/2 yrs.
You're waiting, I'm not. We go to Him.

PS. Don't you want to ask why Dan. 12 says 1290 days & 1335 days instead of just 1260?

Teke
Jan 11th 2008, 01:49 PM
What I'm getting at is that if Christ has already been here twice, we would have gone through the Great Throne Judgement and deemed worthy or not, been reunited with our resurrected bodies, and there would be peace in heaven on earth. We would all be together in the very presence of God.

I am quite aware of the nature of sin, and that we are to die once to the flesh here and now because of Christ in order to have our bodies resurrected after they die after our judgement and reunited with our spirits to bring our physical and spiritual selves together as a perfect soul. It is then that we are saved and redeemed as a whole, perfect being.

Thing is, I have not been judged, there is still plenty of evil that surrounds us all in this world, and I see no physical presence of Christ which we are all told that nobody on the face of the earth will miss. I have not yet seen God. I still sin because my flesh has not died and my soul has not been taken up to the Lord. I still struggle. So do all of you who are here.

On that note, how can you say that Christ has already come again when not all prophecy has been fufilled and we still struggle against the flesh in which our spirit must still reside until either we die or Christ does indeed come again. He doesn't come three times. He only comes twice. Now, the days in which we live, is the advent in which we wait and prepaire.


I've seen this ideal, of everyone being peaceful on earth and heaven much.
But Revelation clearly states that this is not the case. Only those within the Kingdom are without sin. This is how Revelation ends, after the Judgment and with the tree of life.


Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.

I have yet to see anyone address this contradiction to that ideal. Which is why that premise doesn't work.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2008, 01:56 PM
Well. I'm sorry, but I disagree, I believe ALL prophecy has been fulfilled.
You're going to have a tough time selling that. Deuteronomy 30 has been fulfilled? Ezekiel's vision of the rebuilt Temple has occurred? Where's the world peace?

Allegra
Jan 11th 2008, 03:54 PM
You're going to have a tough time selling that. Deuteronomy 30 has been fulfilled? Ezekiel's vision of the rebuilt Temple has occurred? Where's the world peace?
Well, maybe me (literally) But Preterist books & literature are out-selling any futuristic material threefold these days!

I will be back to answer your question or statements on Old Testament Scripture.
This is from the preteristarchives:
Where did Jesus teach a first-century Second Coming?

Answer: There are several passages in the New Testament in which Jesus clearly deals with the timing of his return:
Matt. 10:23 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_10) - "Truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."
Matt. 16:27 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_16),28 - "Truly I say to you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Matt. 24:34 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_24) - "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
Matt. 26:24 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_26) - "You [the high priest] will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven."Jesus was evidently teaching his disciples that the Second Coming was to take place "soon" within the lifetimes of disciples, before some would die, and before his contemporary generation would pass away. Many theologians are puzzled by these statements and are at a loss as to why Jesus "failed" to keep his promise. Could the inspired, inerrant Son of God have failed in any of his prophecies?
Any other Bible time references regarding the Second Coming of Christ?

Answer: There are many statements which place the Second Coming of Jesus in a first-century context and tie it to the destruction of the Jewish temple in A.D. 70. Here are a few:
Matt. 10:23 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_10) - "Truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."
Matt. 16:28 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_16) - "Truly I say to you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Matt. 24:34 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_24) - "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Jesus’ use of "this generation" throughout the gospels always refers to his contemporaries: 26:36 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_26); 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42 and 45; Luke 11:50-51; 17:25; Mk 8:38)
Matt. 26:64 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_26) - "You [the high priest] will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven."Time references in the book of Revelation -
ταχει, tachos and en tachei means "quickly, all at once, with all speed, without delay."
Revelation 1:1 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_1) - "...things which must shortly take place"
Revelation 2:16 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_2) - "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly"
Revelation 3:11 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_3) - "Behold, I come quickly!"
Revelation 22:6 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "...things which must shortly take place."
Revelation 22:7 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "Behold, I am coming quickly!"
Revelation 22:12 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "Behold, I am coming quickly."
Revelation 22:20 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "Surely I am coming quickly."
εγγυς, engus means "at hand, near"
Revelation 1:3 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_1) - "The time is near."
Revelation 22:10 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "The time is at hand."
μελλει, mello, mellei means "about to, on the point or verge of"
Revelation 1:19 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_1) - "Write ... the things that are about to take place."
Revelation 3:10 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_3) - "... the hour of trial ... is about to come upon the whole world." There are other New Testament indications of a first-century return of Jesus:
Rom. 13:11-12 (http://openbibleproject.org/Romans_Chapter_13) - "You know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; the night is far gone, the day is at hand."
1 Cor. 7:29-31 (http://openbibleproject.org/1st_Corinthians_Chapter_7) - "Brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away."
1 Cor. 10:11 (http://openbibleproject.org/1st_Corinthians_Chapter_10) - "On [us] the ends of the ages have come."
Phil. 4:5 (http://openbibleproject.org/Philippians_Chapter_4) - "The Lord is at hand."
James 5:8-9 (http://openbibleproject.org/James_Chapter_5) - "The coming of the Lord is at hand. ... Behold, the Judge is standing at the door."
1 Pet. 4:7 (http://openbibleproject.org/1st_Peter_Chapter_4) - "The end of all things is at hand."
1 Jn. 2:18 (http://openbibleproject.org/1st_John_Chapter_2) - "It is the last hour ... we know that it is the last hour."

Teke
Jan 11th 2008, 04:25 PM
Deuteronomy 30 has been fulfilled? Ezekiel's vision of the rebuilt Temple has occurred?

Why is prophecy so hard to envision? Is it because some want the literal while others are satisfied with the spiritual aspects manifested.

Is it not true that Jewish people believe that prophecy is fulfilled with the Messiah's coming. Or is the Messiah required to fulfill all things for ONLY the Jewish people.
In light of the multiplicity of the world, there can be no exclusively superior ethnic group. Reasonably speaking that is.:cool:

Even within Christianity I find it quite disturbing that people actually hope for the destruction of others not aligned with them. ie. the evil unbelievers or faithless etc.



Where's the world peace?

Peace means different things to different people. As a relationship between people, peace is respect, justice and goodwill.

Martin Luther King put it this way, ""True peace is not merely the absence of tension: it is the presence of justice."

There is also the question of conflict of civilizations to consider, is it unavoidable. Much is being written on the idea of a multipolar world.

Another subject for another thread........

threebigrocks
Jan 11th 2008, 04:29 PM
Guys, I'm not ignoring this, but my days have been busy lately. I will get back with it.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2008, 04:39 PM
Why is prophecy so hard to envision? Is it because some want the literal while others are satisfied with the spiritual aspects manifested. You guys have to get your act together. In this thread ( http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=111858) someone complains about Jewish law meandering away from the literal meaning of the text. So God's law must be exactly what the text says, but prophecies don't?


Is it not true that Jewish people believe that prophecy is fulfilled with the Messiah's coming. Or is the Messiah required to fulfill all things for ONLY the Jewish people. I would say things like world peace and universal knowledge of God would benefit everyone, wouldn't you?


In light of the multiplicity of the world, there can be no exclusively superior ethnic group. Reasonably speaking that is.:cool:Who made any such claims?


Even within Christianity I find it quite disturbing that people actually hope for the destruction of others not aligned with them. ie. the evil unbelievers or faithless etc.Why mention this here? Do you think that Jews hope for the destruction of non-Jews?




Peace means different things to different people. As a relationship between people, peace is respect, justice and goodwill. However you define it, the world is not at peace.


Martin Luther King put it this way, ""True peace is not merely the absence of tension: it is the presence of justice."And this is lacking in the world today.

Teke
Jan 11th 2008, 06:41 PM
You guys have to get your act together. In this thread ( http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=111858) someone complains about Jewish law meandering away from the literal meaning of the text. So God's law must be exactly what the text says, but prophecies don't?

I'm not "you guys". But I do understand how "literal" they are with the text.
From what I've read of your rabbi's, our religions would have much in common on approach of the text.


I would say things like world peace and universal knowledge of God would benefit everyone, wouldn't you?

That didn't answer the question.


Who made any such claims?

The link you posted shows a post in the thread by a rabbi speaking of how the Torah must be interpreted by the Jew to be understood. To me that sounds pretty specific.


Why mention this here? Do you think that Jews hope for the destruction of non-Jews?

Doesn't prophecy include the destruction of the enemies of Jews or Israel?


However you define it, the world is not at peace.

Still the subject of "peace" would have to be addressed in a unanimously understood manner to answer the question of whether there is peace or not.


And this is lacking in the world today.

As the author I exampled did, we should also, point out any injustices in the world to be corrected, or is that God's responsibility alone.
I believe God allows us to do such (correct injustice), and that He also has final say on justice as well, irregardless of what we do.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2008, 06:48 PM
That didn't answer the question.Well, what special benefit do YOU read out of the OT?



The link you posted shows a post in the thread by a rabbi speaking of how the Torah must be interpreted by the Jew to be understood. To me that sounds pretty specific.
No, it says only learned Jews can make rulings on Jewish law. Since the restrictions of Jewish law don't apply to non-Jews, I don't see why that bothers you.

The basic ethical lessons of the bible are pretty plain text and can be understood by anyone who reads them. The legal nuances of Jewish law are so detailed that many years of study are required before one can confidently make complicated rulings.


Doesn't prophecy include the destruction of the enemies of Jews or Israel?Maybe you've not noticed, but regimes and people that hate Israel and the Jews tend to be pretty bad types.



Still the subject of "peace" would have to be addressed in a unanimously understood manner to answer the question of whether there is peace or not.This is semantics, not logic. wars are going on in the world today, so by any definition the world is not at peace.



As the author I exampled did, we should also, point out any injustices in the world to be corrected, or is that God's responsibility alone.
I believe God allows us to do such (correct injustice), and that He also has final say on justice as well, irregardless of what we do.In the post messianic world, where everyone worships the same God, and follows the same ethical rules, there will be no injustice. The point isn't that some people go out with the intention to be bad; bad people believe that they are being good. Their values are upside down. The post-messianic world will be a world where we all have the same values.

Teke
Jan 11th 2008, 10:50 PM
Well, what special benefit do YOU read out of the OT?

The point of the thread is prophecy and eschatology. That is what the question was in reference to.

Let me rephrase the question. Do you believe that the OT prophecies of the Messiah were ONLY for the Jews. Not Israel or anyone else, just the Jews (those who practice Judaism born in Jewish families). Or do you believe they were for the Jews to proclaim the Messiah to the world with/for God? If the latter, then you also believe the Messiah wasn't only for the Jews.



No, it says only learned Jews can make rulings on Jewish law. Since the restrictions of Jewish law don't apply to non-Jews, I don't see why that bothers you.

The basic ethical lessons of the bible are pretty plain text and can be understood by anyone who reads them. The legal nuances of Jewish law are so detailed that many years of study are required before one can confidently make complicated rulings.



It doesn't bother me. I don't know what Jewish law is, though I thought it was the Torah (first five books of scripture). If your saying the Jew is entitled to interpret those scriptures in their religious manner, I'll go along with that. But if it means that no one else can interpret those same scriptures, well, the fact is that others do anyway.

And I would agree with you that anyone making rulings with them should be very well studied. And be able to give a well defined reason for such rulings.


Maybe you've not noticed, but regimes and people that hate Israel and the Jews tend to be pretty bad types.

That goes without saying for any group who hates another.


This is semantics, not logic. wars are going on in the world today, so by any definition the world is not at peace.

No, it's reason with understanding for the other party. Any person at war believes they are doing justice (the right thing). People don't war because they know they are wrong, but because they believe they are right.



In the post messianic world, where everyone worships the same God, and follows the same ethical rules, there will be no injustice. The point isn't that some people go out with the intention to be bad; bad people believe that they are being good. Their values are upside down. The post-messianic world will be a world where we all have the same values.

How do you believe this is achieved? other than what I've said about reasoning peacefully for solutions to perceived injustices.

This is why I asked about your eschatological view on the Messiah. There are Christians who believe they are to do nothing other than wait for His return and BAM, suddenly everything changes, the world, people, all at once just change. They have no choice in the matter what so ever. Is this your view
That is not the created order I see in the world and read in scripture. To me, it ends the way it began, with mankind having a choice in the matter, but it is an informed choice. With the consequences having been laid out.

Allegra
Jan 12th 2008, 02:34 AM
Deuteronomy 30 has been fulfilled?Deut.30 is a timeless message, it seems to me Feris. It has blessing promises for those who return to God. But this is in Moses' time when the Book of the Law & the Old covenant was God's measuring tool.
In Deut.28, God presents the Blessings on obedience, but He also specifies the curses on disobedience. This would be idolatry & breaking the covenant.
Only the REMNANT were obedient. Look at some of those curses! I have to say, I'm glad not to be under the Law, but under Grace.
Deut.28:21-29
21 The LORD will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The LORD will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
25 “The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The LORD will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.

Then in Jeremiah,& sometime after the 70 yr. exile, we see the hope of the Remnant's future....

Jer.31:31-37 (NKJV)
A New Covenant


31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer.31:31-37;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-19718a)] says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “ If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

37 Thus says the LORD:


“ If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.

Footnotes:
Jeremiah 31:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer.31:31-37;&version=50;#en-NKJV-19718) Following Masoretic Text, Targum, and Vulgate; Septuagint and Syriac read and I turned away from them.Now there were 2 kinds of Israelites. The faithful, & the harlot.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ (http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000299.htm#ab8a3995).
Jesus was of the genealogy of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David.(Matthew 1:1)First of all, do you believe this also?
Jesus was the Messiah prophesied in the O.T. Do you believe the New Testament as I do the Old?

I have more to discuss about 1)The Law 2) the New Covenant 3)The Mediator of the New Covenant 4) Esau 5)Circumcised hearts 6) & even Ezek's temple.
But I'd like to know what you think about the faithful Remnant (Israel's)
Do you think, as I do that they were resurrected in 70AD & are in the heavenly Jerusalem, "the mother of us all" ?

Fenris
Jan 12th 2008, 11:03 PM
Let me rephrase the question. Do you believe that the OT prophecies of the Messiah were ONLY for the Jews. Not Israel or anyone else, just the Jews (those who practice Judaism born in Jewish families). Or do you believe they were for the Jews to proclaim the Messiah to the world with/for God? If the latter, then you also believe the Messiah wasn't only for the Jews.The messiah will be for the fulfillment of all of mankind. But the prophecies plainly state that certain things will only happen to the Jews. Specifically, a rebuilt temple and an ingathering of the exiles.




It doesn't bother me. I don't know what Jewish law is, though I thought it was the Torah (first five books of scripture). If your saying the Jew is entitled to interpret those scriptures in their religious manner, I'll go along with that. But if it means that no one else can interpret those same scriptures, well, the fact is that others do anyway.That doesn't make them right though. Anyone can read a book on criminal law. That doesn't give them the right to be a judge.


And I would agree with you that anyone making rulings with them should be very well studied. And be able to give a well defined reason for such rulings.Fair enough.



That goes without saying for any group who hates another. Right, but the enemies of the Jews are also the enemies of God. In any case, the end-time prophecies to talk about armies coming to kill the Jews and conquer Israel. There isn't anything wrong with wishing the destruction of such people.



No, it's reason with understanding for the other party. Any person at war believes they are doing justice (the right thing). People don't war because they know they are wrong, but because they believe they are right.Right, and differing values is why there is no peace in the world today.




How do you believe this is achieved? other than what I've said about reasoning peacefully for solutions to perceived injustices.
Ah. Well, the prophets stated that the messiah will unify all of mankind to worship God.


This is why I asked about your eschatological view on the Messiah. There are Christians who believe they are to do nothing other than wait for His return and BAM, suddenly everything changes, the world, people, all at once just change. They have no choice in the matter what so ever. Is this your viewNot exactly, no. You see, it is the Jews alone who can cause the coming of the messiah, by doing what God expects of us. So Jews believe.

Fenris
Jan 12th 2008, 11:07 PM
Deut.30 is a timeless message, it seems to me Feris. It has blessing promises for those who return to God. Why ignore the literal text?
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

This sounds just like the ingathering of the exiles as promised by the prophets many times.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ (http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000299.htm#ab8a3995).The word 'seed' in Hebrew is 'Zerah'. There is no plural form.



But I'd like to know what you think about the faithful Remnant (Israel's)
Do you think, as I do that they were resurrected in 70AD & are in the heavenly Jerusalem, "the mother of us all" ?
I don't know. I don't think it's important.

threebigrocks
Jan 12th 2008, 11:08 PM
Any other Bible time references regarding the Second Coming of Christ?

Answer: There are many statements which place the Second Coming of Jesus in a first-century context and tie it to the destruction of the Jewish temple in A.D. 70. Here are a few:

Matt. 10:23 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_10) - "Truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."
Matt. 16:28 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_16) - "Truly I say to you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Matt. 24:34 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_24) - "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Jesus’ use of "this generation" throughout the gospels always refers to his contemporaries: 26:36 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_26); 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42 and 45; Luke 11:50-51; 17:25; Mk 8:38)
Matt. 26:64 (http://openbibleproject.org/Matthew_Chapter_26) - "You [the high priest] will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven."There are more meanings for death than simply our flesh dying away. Actually, our flesh is redeemed after the spirit is. Flesh comes second.

There have been many, many unconcluded discussions as it relates to the term generations over a good couple thousand years. IMHO, and this is Spirit led, it means the generation of us who have the ability to choose to live for Christ, those of us who have never lived under anything but grace. Those who follow Christ through faith. It is the generation of His children waiting to be adopted as sons and daughters.

Time references to the end times and when the events of Revelation will occur were left obscure on purpose, simply because only the Father knows the specific time. We can guess, but it's just that. If He has come again the way the prophets have laid out for us to understand why isn't there a unanimous agreement as to the end of this generation? All doubt will be erased, and no conversations such as these will exist.

To the Lord a day is as a 1,000 years. God worked for 6 days, rested on the 7th. The world begun 4,000 or so years prior to Christ. Half of that, just over 2,000 years, would place us at the completion of 6 "days", or 6,000 years. Now, isn't 2,000 quite a bit "sooner" than the previous 4,000? 2 days is a whole lot sooner than 4.

As for the Matthew 26 verse - goes back to my first paragraph here. ALL will see the Son of Man coming on the cloud. Everyone, both physical and spiritual. ALL. That guy, who died during the first century - will know when he comes on that cloud.



ταχει, tachos and en tachei means "quickly, all at once, with all speed, without delay."
Revelation 1:1 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_1) - "...things which must shortly take place"
Revelation 2:16 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_2) - "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly"
Revelation 3:11 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_3) - "Behold, I come quickly!"
Revelation 22:6 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "...things which must shortly take place."
Revelation 22:7 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "Behold, I am coming quickly!"
Revelation 22:12 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "Behold, I am coming quickly."
Revelation 22:20 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "Surely I am coming quickly."
εγγυς, engus means "at hand, near"

Revelation 1:3 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_1) - "The time is near."
Revelation 22:10 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_22) - "The time is at hand."
μελλει, mello, mellei means "about to, on the point or verge of"

Revelation 1:19 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_1) - "Write ... the things that are about to take place."
Revelation 3:10 (http://openbibleproject.org/Revelation_Chapter_3) - "... the hour of trial ... is about to come upon the whole world."Same thing. The trials we face here is laying down our flesh and living in the Spirit. The trials that will come is the tribulation also, which all still alive on this earth will experience.

Look at the trials poured out and announced in Revelation. Now, go back and read the story of Moses and Pharoah. See how that pattern is the same? Warnings first, increased plagues and trials to show the hard of heart the power of God. Some heeded the warnings and were obedient through faith, such as Israel making their doorposts with the blood of the lamb and prepairing unlevened bread. That must have been odd for them, but they obeyed. Some didn't - Pharoah turned his eye, or rather spit in the eye of almighty God, until his son was taken from him at that first passover.

Do you see the parallels? The Israelites were then set free (grace), walked through trials (parting of the sea, lack of food and water, idolatry, fornication, etc.) with faith, only they all failed. Those Israelites who felt they were to receive the promise - they didn't. Their children did. Only two who were a part of the original group made it to Cannaa. Now we wait for the promise land so to speak which Christ has gone ahead to prepaire for us. But, first comes the trials. Revelation - same thing. There is a weeding out during the tribulation. We will all enter together with Christ as one body - presented to Him as His bride. Body and spirit together, with the bridegroom.

If we aren't united - just look at the disagreement in this thread alone - the second coming has not happened. Not all have bowed down to the Lordship of Christ.

Allegra
Jan 13th 2008, 01:26 AM
[/list][quote]There are more meanings for death than simply our flesh dying away. Actually, our flesh is redeemed after the spirit is. Flesh comes second.

There have been many, many unconcluded discussions as it relates to the term generations over a good couple thousand years. IMHO, and this is Spirit led, it means the generation of us who have the ability to choose to live for Christ, those of us who have never lived under anything but grace. Those who follow Christ through faith. It is the generation of His children waiting to be adopted as sons and daughters.First of all 3br, I'm not interested in the teachings & sermons of some church leaders for centuries if they are preaching about futuristic eschatology. See how fast I could get out the door!
I'm speaking about understanding & interpretation of the Bible!
What is laughable is how futurists will say that preterists "spiritualize" passages when they should be literal. First, I do not spiritualize those things which they refer to (the Resurrection,etc) But you see you have a spiritual/physical dichotomy mix up in your own post!?
Who said when we were born again, so were our bodies? "The flesh comes later" What do you mean by that?
I did not get new perfect flesh when I was born again! The Bible says, "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."(Gal.5:16)
St. Paul also describes the measure of new covenant blessings experienced by Christians while living on earth in Romans 8:22-23 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.(emph. mine)
They, & one must consider "the audience related" factor when interpreting the Bible.
Do you think the Apostle Paul was speaking about millenniums away to the Roman Christians that that would be the close "now" in his statements?
Lordly, that does violence to scripture!



Time references to the end times and when the events of Revelation will occur were left obscure on purpose, simply because only the Father knows the specific time. We can guess, but it's just that. If He has come again the way the prophets have laid out for us to understand why isn't there a unanimous agreement as to the end of this generation? All doubt will be erased, and no conversations such as these will exist.

To the Lord a day is as a 1,000 years. God worked for 6 days, rested on the 7th. The world begun 4,000 or so years prior to Christ. Half of that, just over 2,000 years, would place us at the completion of 6 "days", or 6,000 years. Now, isn't 2,000 quite a bit "sooner" than the previous 4,000? 2 days is a whole lot sooner than 4.That single verse in 2Peter is so misunderstood. Actually there's another where some don't know the prophetic meaning of when Peter says "the present heaven & earth were reserved for fire! Do you really think God would destroy heaven!!!!! Or earth, His creation? No. When God sestroyed the world by flood, He didn't destroy the foundations of, just the wicked therein. And there were scoffers in Peter's day saying 'where is this second coming bc it had been decades since Christ had told them He would return. Peter is explaining to his audience that yes, it will be on God's time.
No one knew the day or hour, Jesus said to His disciples. But when Jesus ascended & sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, He gave them utterance of the imminence of His return which He had implied when He was with them.

What does John16:16 say?
16 “A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”
Jesus is speaking to the Apostles. How many times will they see Him again? Twice! After the Cross & after His ascension! Again, who's He promising this to?

As for the Matthew 26 verse - goes back to my first paragraph here. ALL will see the Son of Man coming on the cloud. Everyone, both physical and spiritual. ALL. That guy, who died during the first century - will know when he comes on that cloud. Same thing. The trials we face here is laying down our flesh and living in the Spirit. The trials that will come is the tribulation also, which all still alive on this earth will experience. Again the Scripture is audience related. And I believe you mean Mt. 24. The Olivet discourse from Mt.24-25 is all about the destruction & termination of Judaism & the Jewish dispensation. "Behold He is coming in the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so Amen."(Rev.1:7) What did Jesus tell the high priest? You would see me coming in the clouds of heaven.
The letters were to the 7 churches, so it's to believers, & who else could give testimony? those who were killed? And besides it's as "lightning goes from east to west" that Jesus came in the clouds. He wasn't supposed to come down to earth anyway. But see how you want to be super literal about that now!?
QUESTION: Did Jesus Christ return in AD 70 without fanfare?
ANSWER: I wouldn't exactly call the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 an event “without fanfare.” Josephus mentions some loud voices and trumpet sounds being heard, as well as angelic armies being visible in the sky over Judea at the time of the Jewish revolt (AD 66-70). Jews today still commemorate it in some fashion in almost every joyous occasion they celebrate (the shattered goblet at Jewish weddings, and a special fast day every year in August (Tisha b'Av) are two ways in which they still remember the destruction). Rabbi Davis (from White Plains NY), in his opening remarks of his (1978?) lecture on “Post-Biblical Judaism,” commented that he would begin the study of post-Biblical Judaism with “the end.” Then he said, he would begin with AD 70., because AD 70 was “the end of Biblical Judaism” and the beginning of rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism. Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, “shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God’s presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds. -Edward E. Stevens


Look at the trials poured out and announced in Revelation. Now, go back and read the story of Moses and Pharoah. See how that pattern is the same? Warnings first, increased plagues and trials to show the hard of heart the power of God. Some heeded the warnings and were obedient through faith, such as Israel making their doorposts with the blood of the lamb and prepairing unlevened bread. That must have been odd for them, but they obeyed. Some didn't - Pharoah turned his eye, or rather spit in the eye of almighty God, until his son was taken from him at that first passover.

Do you see the parallels? The Israelites were then set free (grace), walked through trials (parting of the sea, lack of food and water, idolatry, fornication, etc.) with faith, only they all failed. Those Israelites who felt they were to receive the promise - they didn't. Their children did. Only two who were a part of the original group made it to Cannaa. Now we wait for the promise land so to speak which Christ has gone ahead to prepaire for us. But, first comes the trials. Revelation - same thing. There is a weeding out during the tribulation. We will all enter together with Christ as one body - presented to Him as His bride. Body and spirit together, with the bridegroom.Yes, that's good stuff. But only the "weeding" or the Wheat & the Tares (Mt.13:30) parable applies to the end times. We see this in Revelation, during the apocalypse Rev. 14:14-20. This is the final judicial transaction. The harvest corresponds with the reaping of the wheat & its safe gathering into the barn; in other words it is the fulfillment of the prediction, "The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds." (Mt24:31-34) There's just a transposition of the wheat & tares' order in Rev. 14. The tares corresponds to the "vintage of the land."
"Bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn."

If we aren't united - just look at the disagreement in this thread alone - the second coming has not happened. Not all have bowed down to the Lordship of Christ.I do not believe "The Second Coming Of Christ" to be future. Also Redemption, repentance & salvation should be a concern for anyone who is not in the Lord before they die.
Many Christians didn't agree on doctrines. I am non-denominational. I believe Christ was also. Divisions wasn't what He taught. He taught the opposite.
So, one needs to be born-again before they die.
"Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!" (Rev 14:13)

threebigrocks
Jan 13th 2008, 04:00 PM
Christ was non-denominational? Hardly. We are for Him or against Him. He's not accepting of those who are against Him. His way or no way. The parable of the wheat you shared shows that in black and white!

He welcomed all who believed in faith. Those who believed and put their faith into action through obedience (showing fruit, a changed heart denying the flesh) were considered to have a saving faith. That starts in the Old Testiment and continues through to the New. God is the same yesterday today and forever.

I am willing to discuss, but I won't continue on if we are just to argue. Even with our black and white views and understandings, it's apparent that this has become a me against you thing and we are biting off pieces that are too large to make sense of in one or two posts.

Whadda you say to that notion?

Allegra
Jan 13th 2008, 09:09 PM
Christ was non-denominational? Hardly. We are for Him or against Him. He's not accepting of those who are against Him. His way or no way. The parable of the wheat you shared shows that in black and white!

He welcomed all who believed in faith. Those who believed and put their faith into action through obedience (showing fruit, a changed heart denying the flesh) were considered to have a saving faith. That starts in the Old Testiment and continues through to the New. God is the same yesterday today and forever.

I am willing to discuss, but I won't continue on if we are just to argue. Even with our black and white views and understandings, it's apparent that this has become a me against you thing and we are biting off pieces that are too large to make sense of in one or two posts.

Whadda you say to that notion?
You don't agree that Christ was a non-denominational Christian? What I meant was, do you say He was a Lutheran? A Protestant, A Catholic, etc?
Wasn't He just a Christian? Dah, bc He was Christ?
I wasn't referring to those who don't believe in Him. I referred to denominations. And I was commenting on your quote where you said we (I thought you meant Christians) didn't agree on doctrines on this board. So I was making the analogy with the denominations too. Do you understand what I was saying now? Because if not, then forget about it. I don't want to argue that point either.

You are free to participate in the chat of course. But I titled the thread as such so as to invite questions & comments related to Christ's Second Coming.
If we stay on topic, that which is relevant to that can be addressed.

Is that OK with you 3br?:OFFT:
Your sister in Christ,
ALLEGRA

Teke
Jan 13th 2008, 11:32 PM
Allegra, I'd like to know what you believe Ezekial and the temple to be about in your speculation of this matter.:)

Allegra
Jan 14th 2008, 03:41 AM
Allegra, I'd like to know what you believe Ezekial and the temple to be about in your speculation of this matter.:)
It's been a while since I studied Ezekiel. I remember that he was one of the minor prophets that dispy's try to say that temple to be built as some "millennium temple"- but which has no evidence of in Scripture & takes the hyperbole language over-literally.
That's bc Ezekiel was given a vision to typify God's perfect plan. The temple was symbolic of the future & eternal reign of God. It gave hope to the people in a way they could understand since the temple was the focal point.
The Glory had departed from the temple, but God promised them a new heart and a new spirit Ezek.36:26. The new spirit was at Pentecost.
In Ezekiel's day Judah & Jerusalem had become the harlot in God's eyes.(ch.16;23) In spite of the glory of God, Ezekiel was given the promise of the new tabernacle in ch. 37. In the last days, Jehovah would once again establish His presence among the people. This time, however, the tabernacle would be for all men of all nations(Isaiah 2-4). In Ezek. 43, the Son of man is given a vision of the new temple of God, &, "The glory of God came from way of the east...and the glory of God came into the house." In the ensuing description of the new tabernacle, Ezekiel sees a River of Life flowing from the temple, giving life to all (ch.47).
Ezekiel's vision of the temple-city on the high & holy mount was fulfilled at the Parousia in Rev.14:1. The redeemed on Mt. Zion. Mt. Zion represents the kingdom of God.
The Parousia, which is said in Rev. to be soon, would bring the consummation consisting of the heavenly Jerusalem coming to rest on the holy & heavenly Mt. Zion. The greatest symbol of earthly Israel - the capital city of Jerusalem situated on Mt. Zion-is now revealed in its infinitely higher antitype. Ezekiel's vision of the fully restored fellowship with God & man. That which was lost in the earthly Eden situated on its mount, & which was symbolically pictured in the earthly Jerusalem on its mountain, is now fully restored in the consummated, heavenly, New Jerusalem on its mountain of the new covenant kingdom of the Messiah.

Allegra
Jan 14th 2008, 05:11 AM
Where's the world peace?

When Christ returned in AD70, the Old & New Testament faithful were raised to glory with Him & the Father in heaven. They are the ones who have the perfect peaceful environment. When we, who are still living in this sin-filled world die & go to heaven, then we too shall live in peace.

Peace is individual. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God"(Matthew 5:9)
The Lord gives us peace: Isaiah 9:6-7 6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Ephesians 2:14-17
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.

But in the world there are some things we must accept.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
1 To everything there is a season,

A time for every purpose under heaven:
2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 01:00 PM
It's been a while since I studied Ezekiel. I remember that he was one of the minor prophets Who designated him 'minor'?



That's bc Ezekiel was given a vision to typify God's perfect plan. The temple was symbolic of the future & eternal reign of God. But his visions give physical dimensions to the Temple.

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 01:03 PM
When Christ returned in AD70, the Old & New Testament faithful were raised to glory with Him & the Father in heaven. They are the ones who have the perfect peaceful environment. When we, who are still living in this sin-filled world die & go to heaven, then we too shall live in peace.

Eh. A reading of the bible shows it applies to nations, not individuals:

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. — Isaiah 2:4 & Micah 4:3

What gives you the right to ignore the text?

Teke
Jan 14th 2008, 03:31 PM
It's been a while since I studied Ezekiel. I remember that he was one of the minor prophets that dispy's try to say that temple to be built as some "millennium temple"- but which has no evidence of in Scripture & takes the hyperbole language over-literally.
That's bc Ezekiel was given a vision to typify God's perfect plan. The temple was symbolic of the future & eternal reign of God. It gave hope to the people in a way they could understand since the temple was the focal point.
The Glory had departed from the temple, but God promised them a new heart and a new spirit Ezek.36:26. The new spirit was at Pentecost.
In Ezekiel's day Judah & Jerusalem had become the harlot in God's eyes.(ch.16;23) In spite of the glory of God, Ezekiel was given the promise of the new tabernacle in ch. 37. In the last days, Jehovah would once again establish His presence among the people. This time, however, the tabernacle would be for all men of all nations(Isaiah 2-4). In Ezek. 43, the Son of man is given a vision of the new temple of God, &, "The glory of God came from way of the east...and the glory of God came into the house." In the ensuing description of the new tabernacle, Ezekiel sees a River of Life flowing from the temple, giving life to all (ch.47).
Ezekiel's vision of the temple-city on the high & holy mount was fulfilled at the Parousia in Rev.14:1. The redeemed on Mt. Zion. Mt. Zion represents the kingdom of God.
The Parousia, which is said in Rev. to be soon, would bring the consummation consisting of the heavenly Jerusalem coming to rest on the holy & heavenly Mt. Zion. The greatest symbol of earthly Israel - the capital city of Jerusalem situated on Mt. Zion-is now revealed in its infinitely higher antitype. Ezekiel's vision of the fully restored fellowship with God & man. That which was lost in the earthly Eden situated on its mount, & which was symbolically pictured in the earthly Jerusalem on its mountain, is now fully restored in the consummated, heavenly, New Jerusalem on its mountain of the new covenant kingdom of the Messiah.

Thanks for the reply. :)
There are many ways for "visions" to be understood.
Orthodox Christians interpret Ezekials vision in relation to Christ (from Incarnation to Resurrection and all the ontological implications of that) which grounds it as a reality.

threebigrocks
Jan 14th 2008, 04:07 PM
Eh. A reading of the bible shows it applies to nations, not individuals:

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. — Isaiah 2:4 & Micah 4:3

What gives you the right to ignore the text?

Indeed, it is the whole world that is included, not just the faithful.

If these events come at the end of the world, why does this world continue on in a worldly fashion? The second coming isn't just revealed to the faithful, or to Israel, but to all. The whole world.

Teke
Jan 14th 2008, 04:21 PM
Some words for Christians on reading the OT in "The Face of Christ". Bolding, underlining and italics are of my own doing.


It sounds like a paradox that we should read from the Old Testament in order to discover in it the Face of Christ, and in a sense it is. But paradox is of the essence of the Christian mystery: the Incre-ate, breaking into the creative act; the Infinite, giving number and measure to a finite world; the Timeless, yielding to the rhythm of days; the Divine, entering the family of men. The Book of Revelation teaches us that Christ shall be the Last. This demands that we recognize him as the First, for He is the eternal Word by whom all things were made “in the beginning.” And it is no mere coincidence that these three words are read in the first verse of Genesis, and in the first verse of the Gospel according to St. John. We reckon by years before Christ, B.C., and years of the Lord, A.D.; the years under the Law, and the years of grace; the Old Testament, and the New Testament. But the Incarnation is more than a serviceable time-divider. The light of the star which rose over Bethlehem is the same light that did shine through darkness on the first day of creation, unto the first man on earth, the fathers of the Old Law and the Gentiles, “every man coming into the world.” We have no right to curtail the total perspective of God's revelation. We have been taught to behold the image of Christ in the luminous pages of the Gospel, but we are not therefore to neglect or to despise the rays which have guided the Forefathers and sustained their hope. It is always His Face we should recognize, glowing amidst the shadows of the remotest past, and His voice we should hear in the reading of the sacred page, in Moses or in the prophets, as well as, in the Gospels or in the apostolic writings.

For we should not imagine the divine revelation to be like a flash of lightning which, for a fraction of a second, brings out the minute details of a nocturnal landscape with almost unbearable sharpness, but rather as the gradual unveiling of the mystery under a steadily growing light. The progress of divine revelation is neither uniform nor arbitrary; it does not go by leaps and bounds; the economy of the Providence accommodates itself, by an admirable condescension, to the highs and lows of the human predicament. The Incarnation of the Word marks in fact the last stage of a devel-opment of which the Old Testament constitutes the authentic record, but God had manifested Him-self from the beginning “at sundry times and in divers manners” (Heb. 1:1), so as never to leave mankind without a witness. The condition for receiving this witness, however, is that we should be both humble and industrious, failing which I am afraid that we would not benefit much more from the reading of the New Testament (i.e., contextually by itself, without integrating/interacting the New Testament with the Old Testament).

"The Face of Christ In the Old Testament”
By Georges A. Barrois , St. Vladimir's Seminary Press 1974

Allegra
Jan 14th 2008, 04:39 PM
Eh. A reading of the bible shows it applies to nations, not individuals:

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. — Isaiah 2:4 & Micah 4:3

What gives you the right to ignore the text?
Hi Feris, how's everything in my native city?

The study of Isaiah 2-4 is extremely critical to understand God's promises to Israel about the new tabernacle.
At the time of the end, the kingdom would be established. (Isa.2:2-3) The Day of the Lord(2:9-11; 2:19-21) would consummate the last days period. The Lord would stand up to judge His people (Isa.3:13), & it would be a time of "the war"(3:25). The prophet said, "in that day," the Lord would remove the "blood-guilt" from Israel. This blood-guilt was the guilt incurred from killing the prophets and God's elect (Isa.1:15; 59:3,7; see also Jeremiah 2:34; 7:6, etc.)
In the Day that the Lord redeemed Israel, He would do so,"by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of fire" (Isa.4:4). When the blood-guilt was cleansed, "There will a tabernacle for shade in the daytime and heat, for a place of refuge, and a shelter from storm and rain" (4:6)
Isaiah's prediction is remarkable in its similarity to the book of Revelation.
Isaiah 2-4................................................. .......Revelation
Prophecy for "the last days"(2:2)......................John was in the last days
.................................................. .................(Acts 2:15)..............
Israel guilt of blood-guilt.......................Mystery Babylon guilty of same
shedding blood of prophets.....................(Rev.16:6)
Day of the Lord to punish blood- ...............D.O.T.L.to punish b.g.(6:9-17)
guilt(2:19f;4:2f).........................In Rev.6:12f,John cites the identical ver-
.................................................. ...................ses from Isaiah!
D.O.T.L. a time against Israel(3:13-26)...............DOTL against Babylon-
.................................................. ....."where the Lord was slain"(11:8)
Tabernacle to follow the DOTL..........Tabernacle to follow DOTL (21:21)
Fulfillment far off in the last days.......Fulfillment"must shortly come to pass"
(2:2)............................................. .......(22:6,10,12,etc)

In Luke 23:28-31, Jesus cites Isaiah 2:19-22(parallel Hosea 10:8) Jesus applied Isaiah 2 to the impending fall of Jerusalem (which was in AD70)

This was "end time" spoken of in Daniel 12.
The Remnant was resurrected & went to the New Jerusalem in heaven!
Praise God!

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 04:51 PM
Indeed, it is the whole world that is included, not just the faithful.

If these events come at the end of the world, why does this world continue on in a worldly fashion? The second coming isn't just revealed to the faithful, or to Israel, but to all. The whole world.
I agree 100%. And the point is that it hasn't happened yet.

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 04:53 PM
Hi Feris, how's everything in my native city?All is well here.


The study of Isaiah 2-4 is extremely critical to understand God's promises to Israel about the new tabernacle...
I find your exposition of the prophecies quite interesting. There's nothing wrong with doing that. But in so doing you are ignoring the literal meaning of the text.

threebigrocks
Jan 14th 2008, 04:54 PM
Luke 23


28But Jesus turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

29"For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.'
30"Then they will begin TO SAY TO THE MOUNTAINS, 'FALL ON US,' AND TO THE HILLS, 'COVER US.' 31"For if they do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"


Where does it say that this has anything to do with 70 AD?

Do you see the parallel in this passage?


Matthew 24


15"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17"Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18"Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19"But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20"But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.


Flee to the mountians...they will cover you (as you quoted in Luke) and weep for your children because woe will come to those pregnant and nursing.

Allegra
Jan 14th 2008, 07:55 PM
All is well here.

I find your exposition of the prophecies quite interesting. There's nothing wrong with doing that. But in so doing you are ignoring the literal meaning of the text.
I'm not ignoring or deliberately overlooking any of the text. Isaiah 2 is entitled "The Future House of God" I am using the NKJV. Isaiah 3 is entitled "Judgment on Judah and Jerusalem."
Good Bible hermeneutics warrants comparing scripture with scripture. Isaiah's "Day of the Lord" (2:5) can be paralleled to that specific DOTL if we look at other scripture from the Old & New Testaments. There is more interpretation of the events bc we do not need to have the verses stand alone when there are others.
And "they shall not learn war anymore" means the same thing to me (literally) probably as it does to you. But I am getting to the "results" of the matter when I say- bc they will be in heaven at that time- right, they shall not need or have war anymore.
Let me ask you the literal interpretation of this passage:
Isaiah 4:2 (you can read the rest of the short chapter, I'll just post vs.2)
The Renewal of Zion

2 In that day the Branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
Who or what do you see as the "Branch"?

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 08:03 PM
I'm not ignoring or deliberately overlooking any of the text. That's not my observation.


And "they shall not learn war anymore" means the same thing to me (literally) probably as it does to you. But I am getting to the "results" of the matter when I say- bc they will be in heaven at that time- right, they shall not need or have war anymore.It's also unprovable, since none of us knows what goes on in heaven. So it's difficult to say that the prophecy has been 'fulfilled' if no one knows whether it has or not.


Let me ask you the literal interpretation of this passage:
Isaiah 4:2 (you can read the rest of the short chapter, I'll just post vs.2)
The Renewal of Zion

2 In that day the Branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
Who or what do you see as the "Branch"?
Rashi says it refers to the righteous of Israel. Works for me.

Allegra
Jan 14th 2008, 08:46 PM
[QUOTE]That's not my observation.
That's OK. To each his own.


It's also unprovable, since none of us knows what goes on in heaven. So it's difficult to say that the prophecy has been 'fulfilled' if no one knows whether it has or not.
That's not entirely true. In the New Testament, the very last 2 chapters of Revelation describes the splendor of heaven. Although the "architecture" may be symbolic, the sentiment presents an awesome reality of heaven. I will post those chapters just in case you don't have a New Testament handy.lol.

Revelation 21-22.
All Things Made New

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31050a)] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done![c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31054c)] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31055d)] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31056e)] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”[B]The New Jerusalem


9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31057f)] and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31057g)] 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31058h)] Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.The Glory of the New Jerusalem


22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31071j)] for the glory[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31071k)] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31072l)] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31072m)] 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31074n)] 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31075o)] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.Revelation 22

The River of Life

1 And he showed me a pure[p (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31076p)] river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.The Time Is Near


6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy[q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31081q)] prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
8 Now I, John, saw and heard[r (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31083r)] these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For[s (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31084s)] I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[t (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31086t)] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”Jesus Testifies to the Churches


12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”[u (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31088u)]
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[v (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31089v)] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[w (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31090w)] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.A Warning


18 For[x (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31093x)] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[y (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31093y)] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[z (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31094z)] his part from the Book[aa (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31094aa)] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.I Am Coming Quickly


20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.[ab (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31096ab)] Amen.

Footnotes:

Revelation 21:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31050) NU-Text and M-Text omit [I]John.
Revelation 21:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31053) NU-Text and M-Text omit to me.
Revelation 21:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31054) M-Text omits It is done.
Revelation 21:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31055) M-Text reads overcomes, I shall give him these things.
Revelation 21:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31056) M-Text adds and sinners.
Revelation 21:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31057) NU-Text and M-Text omit to me.
Revelation 21:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31057) M-Text reads I will show you the woman, the Lamb’s bride.
Revelation 21:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31058) NU-Text and M-Text omit the great and read the holy city, Jerusalem.
Revelation 21:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31062) NU-Text and M-Text read twelve names.
Revelation 21:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31071) NU-Text and M-Text omit in it.
Revelation 21:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31071) M-Text reads the very glory.
Revelation 21:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31072) NU-Text and M-Text omit of those who are saved.
Revelation 21:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31072) M-Text reads the glory and honor of the nations to Him.
Revelation 21:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31074) M-Text adds that they may enter in.
Revelation 21:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31075) NU-Text and M-Text read anything profane, nor one who causes.
Revelation 22:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31076) NU-Text and M-Text omit pure.
Revelation 22:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31081) NU-Text and M-Text read spirits of the prophets.
Revelation 22:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31083) NU-Text and M-Text read am the one who heard and saw.
Revelation 22:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31084) NU-Text and M-Text omit For.
Revelation 22:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31086) NU-Text and M-Text read do right.
Revelation 22:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31088) NU-Text and M-Text read the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31089) NU-Text reads wash their robes.
Revelation 22:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31090) NU-Text and M-Text omit But.
Revelation 22:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31093) NU-Text and M-Text omit For.
Revelation 22:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31093) M-Text reads may God add.
Revelation 22:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31094) M-Text reads may God take away.
Revelation 22:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31094) NU-Text and M-Text read tree of life.
Revelation 22:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021-22;&version=50;#en-NKJV-31096) NU-Text reads with all; M-Text reads with all the saints.


Rashi says it refers to the righteous of Israel. Works for me.
Well, sort of, but not quite. It is a person. And He was definitely for the righteous of Israel.
This "Branch" is also written in Jeremiah 23:5-6
5 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will raise up to David [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer%2023:5-6;&version=31;#fen-NIV-19490a)] a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.
Footnotes:

Jeremiah 23:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer%2023:5-6;&version=31;#en-NIV-19490) Or up from David's line.So do you see how it could be a single person, & not a group?

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 09:24 PM
That's not entirely true. In the New Testament, the very last 2 chapters of Revelation describes the splendor of heaven. Although the "architecture" may be symbolic, the sentiment presents an awesome reality of heaven. I will post those chapters just in case you don't have a New Testament handy.lol.It sounds like me that Revelation is describing a future event- just like the OT prophets.



Well, sort of, but not quite. It is a person. And He was definitely for the righteous of Israel.
This "Branch" is also written in Jeremiah 23:5-6
5 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will raise up to David [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer%2023:5-6;&version=31;#fen-NIV-19490a)] a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.
Footnotes:
Jeremiah 23:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer%2023:5-6;&version=31;#en-NIV-19490) Or up from David's line.So do you see how it could be a single person, & not a group?
Jesus was a king? Judah was saved and Israel dwelled safely? When did this happen?!

threebigrocks
Jan 14th 2008, 09:37 PM
It sounds like me that Revelation is describing a future event- just like the OT prophets.

Revelation is future events, true.



Jesus was a king? Judah was saved and Israel dwelled safely? When did this happen?!

Jesus is King, and the Christian would believe that we are safe now spiritually because of Him. Later, to be safe as a soul with body and spirit.

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 09:39 PM
Jesus is King, and the Christian would believe that we are safe now spiritually because of Him. Later, to be safe as a soul with body and spirit.
Well, let's not argue this point, except to say that the verse in Jeremiah that Allegra cited also refers to a future event. Agreed?

threebigrocks
Jan 14th 2008, 09:47 PM
Well, let's not argue this point, except to say that the verse in Jeremiah that Allegra cited also refers to a future event. Agreed?

I respect you Fenris, and dont want to argue with you either, but from my pov, it's not a future event. :saint:

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 09:55 PM
I respect you Fenris, and dont want to argue with you either, but from my pov, it's not a future event. :saint:Ah. In that case, actual future events will have to be the deciding factor. :D

Allegra
Jan 14th 2008, 10:06 PM
Luke 23


Where does it say that this has anything to do with 70 AD?The Bible & history. Are you familiar with the writings of Josephus? With regards to the "Great tribulation" in Israel? 70AD would be the consummation of Christ's kingdom. There's more than enough passages spoken by Jesus, the Apostles, & the OT saints (which are through the Bible) that I will have to draw on afterwards bc it's so extensive.
The end of "the age" was the end of the Jewish dispensation,. Jesus was/is the mediator of the new covenant. AD70 was the official end of the Old
covenant when Christ did come in judgment upon the "wicked" & vindicated the saints.

Do you see the parallel in this passage?I would have liked to begin with Rev.1, but can refer back.
Revelation is the apocalypse time (starting in ch.6)
Rev.6:12-17
2And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


No one can fail to observe that nearly every feature in this awful scene occurs in our Lord's prophecy on the Mt. of Olives with reference to the coming judgments on the city & nation of Israel. There is no room for a moment's uncertainty as to the meaning of the vision of the sixth seal; but the more closely that every symbol is studied, the more distinctly will be seen its relation to that great catastrophe. This is the 'dies irae' (GR) 'the great and terrible day of the Lord' predicted by Malachi, by John the Baptist, by St. Paul, by St. Peter, and, above all, by our Lord in His apocalyptic discourse on the Mt. of Olives. It is the expected consummation for which the apostolic church was watching & waiting,- the day of judgment for the guilty nation, & the day of redemption & reward for the people of God.
The 6th seal........................................The prophecy on Olivet
'And lo, there was a great earthquake.' 'And there shall be earthquakes
.................................................. ....in diverse places' (Luke 21:11; Mt.
.................................................. ........24:7..................................
'And the sun became black as a sack-..............'Immediately after the trib-
cloth of hair.......................................ulation of those days shall the sun .................................................. .....be darkened.'
'And the moon became as blood.'............And the moon shall not give her
.................................................. .......light.'
'And the stars of heaven fell onto earth'/And the stars shall fall from heaven
'And the heavens departed as a scroll.......'And the powers of the heavens
when it is rolled together'......................shall be shaken' (Mt.24:29)........

'And the kings,etc., his themselves.............'Then shall they begin to say
and sais to the mts. & rocks, Fall on us,.........to the mountains, Fall on us:
& hide us, etc...............................and to the hills, Cover us (Luke 23:30)

[/quote]
It's a start. I'll be back soon. This is time-consuming.

Allegra
Jan 14th 2008, 10:26 PM
Jesus was a king? Judah was saved and Israel dwelled safely? When did this happen?!
Yes Feris, right on! When Jesus, the Messiah came "for the lost tribes of Israel" especially, thousands of Jews accepted Him. Of course the pharisees did not, (they wanted power-someone who could overthrow their yoke of the Romans give them an earthly kingdom)
But the Jews who accepted Him & the deceased O.T. saints like Moses,David,etc. those who were faithful & obedient to the old covenant of God, they were delivered on judgment day. The Lord resurrected them "from the pit." It's written in Revelation 11 "the 7th trumpet" The Lord also rewarded the apostolic church at that time (same judgment day)
Jesus had instructed His now faithful ones that wrath was coming upon Jerusalem as prophesied also in the Old Testament. (Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Malachi) This demands a time-frame after Antiochus Epiphanes IV, since Jesus taught in 30-33AD (approx.)
The story is confirmed by Josephus that a great deal of these new Christians left Jerusalem & fled to Pella when the rebellion & war escalated.

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 10:31 PM
Yes Feris, right on!Um, wow. Where to begin?


When Jesus, the Messiah came "for the lost tribes of Israel" especially, thousands of Jews accepted Him.Yes, like mny Pharisee rabbis, he had many followers.


Of course the pharisees did not, (they wanted power-someone who could overthrow their yoke of the Romans give them an earthly kingdom)Or maybe they just didn't see him as fulfilling the expected prophecies?


But the Jews who accepted Him & the deceased O.T. saints like Moses,David,etc. those who were faithful & obedient to the old covenant of God, they were delivered on judgment day.When did this happen?


Jesus had instructed His now faithful ones that wrath was coming upon Jerusalem as prophesied also in the Old Testament. (Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Malachi) Um, those same prophets made other predictions about Jerusalem. You know, ingathering of exiles, rebuilding of the Temple, etc etc. Why are the prophecies about the destruction literal but the prophecies about the rebuilding are figurative?

Allegra
Jan 15th 2008, 02:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegra http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1500802#post1500802)
Yes Feris, right on!

Um, wow. Where to begin?

Quote:
When Jesus, the Messiah came "for the lost tribes of Israel" especially, thousands of Jews accepted Him.

Fenris: Yes, like mny Pharisee rabbis, he had many followers.Yes, but the Pharisee rabbis who came on the scene when we open the New Testament, were no longer from the line of Aaron. Their descendancy could not be traced back. They were hired priests to whom the office was sold as political patronage.

Quote:
Of course the pharisees did not, (they wanted power-someone who could overthrow their yoke of the Romans give them an earthly kingdom)

Fenris: Or maybe they just didn't see him as fulfilling the expected prophecies?Well, one thing is for sure. God knew some who accept Him and many would reject Him so that Prophecy would be fulfilled.

Quote:
But the Jews who accepted Him & the deceased O.T. saints like Moses,David,etc. those who were faithful & obedient to the old covenant of God, they were delivered on judgment day.

Fenris: When did this happen?Well, the apostles were Jews. Those Jews who accepted Christ, it is written in the Book of Acts. Throughout the apostles & disciples ministry salvation was always offered to the Jew first, then the Greek by divine commission.
The resurrection of the dead & "catching away" of the living was at the same time of the judgment on Jerusalem. This was the final end of the old covenant & Biblical Judaism. God gave Israel 40 yrs. to merge with Christianity when Christ preached on the Mt. of Olives-He warned. But He also knew some would no be accepting of the new covenant. God had a Plan for the faithful, but he had a plan of wrath for the "Jews who said they were Jews, but were not." I'm not saying that in particular Feris, the Bible says that, in Revelation 2&3. That Plan was to have the Roman armies destroy Jerusalem & the temple "made with hands" during the Great tribulation for the time, times, & a half time. AD67-70.5

Quote:
Jesus had instructed His now faithful ones that wrath was coming upon Jerusalem as prophesied also in the Old Testament. (Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Malachi)


Fenris: Um, those same prophets made other predictions about Jerusalem. You know, ingathering of exiles, rebuilding of the Temple, etc etc. Why are the prophecies about the destruction literal but the prophecies about the rebuilding are figurative?No. The post-exilic temple (some call Zerubbabel's temple) as described in Nehemiah, Ezra, Haggai, a bit in Daniel 9, that temple for certain is very literal & historic. (But by then, they were down to a remnant that God even called "the residue" That's how much Israel had rebelled against God.) But not so with Ezekiel's temple. It was a symbolic thing for the people, but it was all about the new tabernacle, the new heavens & new earth. There are meanings to those symbols used (as per Isaiah & St. Peter & Jesus)The new heaven & new earth in the prophetic means: the whole universe, political or religious. Heaven is always the symbol of government, the higher places in the political universe.
In AD70, it was not the end of the world, but the Bible says in the Greek, the end of the "age."

I hope to chat with you again, Fenris. BTW, have you ever read the New Testament?

threebigrocks
Jan 15th 2008, 03:34 AM
Matthew 24


29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Parable of the Fig Tree

32"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;

33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
35"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.


Prior to this, the abomination of desolation occurs.

Allegra, these are Christ's word, from the Word Himself. He tells here, and is echoed in 1 Thess. 5 by Paul in the same words as in Matthew 24, about the order of the end times.

What to you is the abomination of desolation?

Allegra
Jan 15th 2008, 04:43 AM
Matthew 24


Prior to this, the abomination of desolation occurs.

Allegra, these are Christ's word, from the Word Himself. He tells here, and is echoed in 1 Thess. 5 by Paul in the same words as in Matthew 24, about the order of the end times.

What to you is the abomination of desolation?
It's the same as in Daniel 12:11-13
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

The Romans entered the temple & desecrated it by putting their eagle emblems & idols all over it & on the altar during the destruction of Jerusalem & in the end the temple.

The 1290 days is bc Rome took the spoils of war too. They cut open the bellies of some of the dead bc those were so starved they ate gold & silver pieces, but were forcibly ravished by famine. Also, bc Rome didn't want to feed any of the survivors, they sold them as slaves to other nations throughout the empire.
"Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1,335 days."
Just when they were down to the last group of Jews to process, it suddenly happens- Jesus returns for those who "kept waiting" outside Jerusalem. (Rev.12:14) (Micah 2:12)

Hope that helped :)

Fenris
Jan 15th 2008, 12:58 PM
Yes, but the Pharisee rabbis who came on the scene when we open the New Testament, were no longer from the line of Aaron. Their descendancy could not be traced back. They were hired priests to whom the office was sold as political patronage. Rabbis did not have to be from the house of Aaron. Priests did. Priests did, and still do, trace their lineage back to Aaron. In any case, priests were only there to carry out Temple duties; their time as teachers was long past.


Well, one thing is for sure. God knew some who accept Him and many would reject Him so that Prophecy would be fulfilled.
I am not familiar with this prophecy.


Well, the apostles were Jews. Those Jews who accepted Christ, it is written in the Book of Acts. Throughout the apostles & disciples ministry salvation was always offered to the Jew first, then the Greek by divine commission.
The resurrection of the dead & "catching away" of the living was at the same time of the judgment on Jerusalem. This was the final end of the old covenant & Biblical Judaism. God gave Israel 40 yrs. to merge with Christianity when Christ preached on the Mt. of Olives-He warned.Hmm, this is an interesting premise. I have a couple of issues with it, however (you just knew that was coming, right?) First of all, most of the Jews in the world in Jesus's time did not live in Israel. So it's entirely possible that most never knew of him in his lifetime and I'd wager that plenty of them hadn't heard of him even by the year 70. The second issue, related to the first, is that all of the Jews stood at Sinai and heard God. If God were going to change the rules, he would have the obligation of notifying each and every Jew. Since He did not, we still consider ourselves by bound what was said at Sinai and after.


But He also knew some would no be accepting of the new covenant. God had a Plan for the faithful, but he had a plan of wrath for the "Jews who said they were Jews, but were not.Why weren't they Jews?



No. The post-exilic temple (some call Zerubbabel's temple) as described in Nehemiah, Ezra, Haggai, a bit in Daniel 9, that temple for certain is very literal & historic. (But by then, they were down to a remnant that God even called "the residue" That's how much Israel had rebelled against God.) But not so with Ezekiel's temple. It was a symbolic thing for the people, but it was all about the new tabernacle, the new heavens & new earth. There are meanings to those symbols used (as per Isaiah & St. Peter & Jesus)The new heaven & new earth in the prophetic means: the whole universe, political or religious. Heaven is always the symbol of government, the higher places in the political universe. Um, the temple described in Ezekiel lists physical dimensions not matched by the first or second temple. I'm of the opinion that when God says He will do something, it will be done.


I hope to chat with you again, Fenris.Likewise. I find your viewpoints interesting!

BTW, have you ever read the New Testament?Yes, I have.

Allegra
Jan 15th 2008, 05:34 PM
[quote]Rabbis did not have to be from the house of Aaron. Priests did. Priests did, and still do, trace their lineage back to Aaron. In any case, priests were only there to carry out Temple duties; their time as teachers was long past.I didn't really know the difference Fenris, but I do mean "priests."
Interestingly, from history, From Syria, Antiochus the Great's son, Antiochus Epiphanes (the mad man), first act was to depose the high priest in Jerusalem, thus ending a long line of succession beginning with Aaron. OK, but then came the Maccabees, the Asmonean family, who began a line of high priests known as the Asmonean dynasty. Their sons, for about the next 3 or 4 generations, ruled as priests in Jerusalem, defending themselves constantly from the assaults of the Syrian army who tried to recapture the city & the temple.
During the days of the Maccabees, there was temporary overthrow of the foreign domination which is why Jews look back to that time with tremendous veneration.
But during this time, one of the Asmonean priests made a league with the rising power in the West, Rome. He signed a treaty with the Senate of Rome, providing for help in the event of a Syrian attack. Though the treaty was made in all earnestness, it was this pact which introduced Rome into the picture & history of Israel. (H.A. Ironside, The 400 silent years)
Rome was watchful of the battles between the 2 opposing forces. But they grew hotter & hotter. Finally, the governor of Idumea, a man named Antipater & a descendant of Esau, made a pact with the 2 other neighboring kings & attacked Jerusalem to try to overthrow the authority of the Asmonean high priest. This battle raged so fiercely that finally Pompey, the Roman general, who happened to have an army in Damascus at the time, was besought by both parties to intervene. One side had a little more money than the other, & persuaded by that logical argument, Pompey came down from Damascus, entered the city of Jerusalem -again a terrible slaughter-overthrew the city & captured it for Rome. That was in 63BC. From that time on, Palestine was under the authority & power of Rome.
Now Pompey & the Roman Senate appointed Antipater as Procurator of Judea, & he in turn made his 2 sons kings of Galilee & Judea. The son who became king of Judea is known to us as Herod the Great.(Hello! Descendant of Esau!) Not of Zerubbabel or Jacob! That's who was on David's thrown!
Finally, I got to my point Fenris! So, in the New Testament times, there were 2 major parties :the Hebrew nationalists(the Pharisees) who were strict preservationists/legalists of the Mosaic order. Then there was the "liberal Hellenists", the Sadducees. The rationalists.They turned away from the strict interpretation of the law, ceasing to believe in the supernatural in any way, & did not believe in the resurrection.(Mt.22:23-33)
The Pharisees, who grew stronger & stronger, became more legalistic & rigid in their requirements, until they became the target for some of the most scorching words our Lord(Jesus) ever spoke. They had become religious hypocrites, keeping the outward form of the law, but completely violating its spirit. And as I mentioned, the high priests, who sat in the seat of religious authority in the nation, were not from Aaron, but were hired priests to whom the office was sold as political patronage.



I am not familiar with this prophecy.All throughout the New Testament, both Jesus & the apostles quoted scripture from the O.T. for this or that prophecy, saying, "the scripture was fulfilled then or scripture must be fulfilled (e.g. Jesus allowed John the Baptist to baptized Him so that the scripture would be fulfilled for the Jewish requirement of Baptism)
But the major prophecies of the coming Messiah from O.T. times was fulfilled with Christ. And in the prophecies in the OT were the prophetic words/descriptions, of how He would be rejected by His own "the Jewish people in general" & they who aid & abet with Rome to have Him crucified.
That was all a part of God's great Plan for the salvation of mankind. For God did indeed send His only begotten Son as a once-and-for - all BLOOD sacrifice for man's sin! The blood of goats & bulls didn't do it. So God sent Jesus. And in Him we have forgiveness of sin (permanently) The sin that separated us from God(Adam's sin) and any confessed sins thereafter. But the blood-bought sin of Adam is what gives us the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus. There is no condemnation(judgment) in Christ Jesus.
That is what the "Seventy Weeks" prophecy was about in Daniel.
Dan.9:24
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
This was about the Messiah, Christ. Now some knew the Scriptures, & accepted Him entering into Jerusalem calling: "Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!(Psalm118:26) Hosanna in the highest!(Matthew 21:9)

Hmm, this is an interesting premise. I have a couple of issues with it, however (you just knew that was coming, right?) First of all, most of the Jews in the world in Jesus's time did not live in Israel. So it's entirely possible that most never knew of him in his lifetime and I'd wager that plenty of them hadn't heard of him even by the year 70. The second issue, related to the first, is that all of the Jews stood at Sinai and heard God. If God were going to change the rules, he would have the obligation of notifying each and every Jew. Since He did not, we still consider ourselves by bound what was said at Sinai and after.Well, the world was not that big of a place geographically then Fenris. The Roman empire ruled most of it too, from the British Isles to the Borders of India. So whee did the Jewish people reside, do you say? Not only that, but The apostles (especially initiated by the apostle Paul(a former Pharisee,btw) started churches all throughout Asia minor, & all the way west to Rome. There were decent Jewish populations in these church areas. Like the church in Laodicea, for example, in Asia minor. Based on archeological finds of some remnants of synagogues. The synagogues were gradually replaced to make them "churches" for the Jewish Christians in those times.
And the Apostle Paul says in Colossians 1:5-7, that the gospel was preached to "the whole world" at that time.5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col%201:5-7;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29466a)] as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; 7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf,
And as far as Mt. Sinai is concerned. That was then. But when one follows on in Israels history, one can plainly read of the conditional promises of God. Israel did not remain faithful. They killed the prophets who came to them telling them to repent & get right with God. So they knew the Scriptures. They knew the blessings & cursings God ordained in Deut.28.
And they din't need to be addressed personally. No one is! They knew the scriptures or should have known. God told Ezekiel that the glory had left the temple. If you must fall back on Ezekiel! He is one of the prophets who wrote entirely in symbolic form & everything was a spiritual message to give hope in the spirit that there would be a redeemer who came from the east gate, & in Him there would be everlasting life- the promise of a new tabernacle, here & in the heavenlies- The New Jerusalem.

Why weren't they Jews?I'll have to explain that later. Life calls!

Um, the temple described in Ezekiel lists physical dimensions not matched by the first or second temple. I'm of the opinion that when God says He will do something, it will be done.That's bc it was never meant to be literally built. It was symbolic of heaven.

Likewise. I find your viewpoints interesting!Thankyou. And I yours.
:)

Fenris
Jan 15th 2008, 06:03 PM
[quote=Fenris;1501398]I didn't really know the difference Fenris, but I do mean "priests."Well Jesus was a rabbi, not a priest.


Interestingly, from history, From Syria, Antiochus the Great's son, Antiochus Epiphanes (the mad man), first act was to depose the high priest in Jerusalem, thus ending a long line of succession beginning with Aaron.NO! Every priest, even the ones appointed by Rome, were from the line of Aaron. People to this day can still trace the lineage back. But the High Priest was a Temple functionary. That's it. They did not decide Jewish law (that was the Sanhedrin, which was composed of rabbis). They did not decide foreign policy (that was the king.) The High priest could even be a total ignoramus, and by Jesus's time most were.


Finally, I got to my point Fenris! So, in the New Testament times, there were 2 major parties :the Hebrew nationalists(the Pharisees) who were strict preservationists/legalists of the Mosaic order. Then there was the "liberal Hellenists", the Sadducees. The rationalists.They turned away from the strict interpretation of the law, ceasing to believe in the supernatural in any way, & did not believe in the resurrection.(Mt.22:23-33)Um, not quite. The Saducees believed only in the literal word of the Bible. No rabbinical exposition allowed. That's why they didn't believe in the afterlife which is not mentioned in the Bible. The Pharisees were the ones who wrote the Talmud and as such the precursors to modern-day rabbinical Judaism.



The Pharisees, who grew stronger & stronger, became more legalistic & rigid in their requirements, until they became the target for some of the most scorching words our Lord(Jesus) ever spoke.If you say so. The Pharisees were 'strong' only in that they had the support of the common man. The Saducees had the support of the upper classes, and Rome.


They had become religious hypocrites, keeping the outward form of the law, but completely violating its spirit. I disagree. But again, I see the obedience of the law as a way of getting closer to God. Since that is it's function, we do indeed need to keep it as precisely as possible.


And as I mentioned, the high priests, who sat in the seat of religious authority in the nation, were not from Aaron, but were hired priests to whom the office was sold as political patronage.The High Priests were not the seat of religious authority. All they did was preside over temple ritual. The teachers were rabbis.




But the major prophecies of the coming Messiah from O.T. times was fulfilled with Christ.Not as Jews see it, then or now.


And in the prophecies in the OT were the prophetic words/descriptions, of how He would be rejected by His own "the Jewish people in general" & they who aid & abet with Rome to have Him crucified.
That was all a part of God's great Plan for the salvation of mankind. For God did indeed send His only begotten Son as a once-and-for - all BLOOD sacrifice for man's sin! The blood of goats & bulls didn't do it. So God sent Jesus. And in Him we have forgiveness of sin (permanently) The sin that separated us from God(Adam's sin) and any confessed sins thereafter. But the blood-bought sin of Adam is what gives us the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus. Right, I understand that this is the root of Christian belief.


There is no condemnation(judgment) in Christ Jesus.
That is what the "Seventy Weeks" prophecy was about in Daniel.
Dan.9:24
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
This was about the Messiah, Christ. Now some knew the Scriptures, & accepted Him entering into Jerusalem calling: "Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!(Psalm118:26) Hosanna in the highest!(Matthew 21:9)The seventy weeks refers to something else, from the Jewish perspective. I've not the time to go into it now.


Well, the world was not that big of a place geographically then Fenris. The Roman empire ruled most of it too, from the British Isles to the Borders of India. So whee did the Jewish people reside, do you say? Not only that, but The apostles (especially initiated by the apostle Paul(a former Pharisee,btw) started churches all throughout Asia minor, & all the way west to Rome. There were decent Jewish populations in these church areas. Like the church in Laodicea, for example, in Asia minor. Based on archeological finds of some remnants of synagogues. The synagogues were gradually replaced to make them "churches" for the Jewish Christians in those times.This may be true, but it doesn't solve the problem for the Jewish believer. God Himself spoke to all the Jews at Sinai. If God were going to alter the covenant, He Himself would again have to speak to all the Jews.



And as far as Mt. Sinai is concerned. That was then. But when one follows on in Israels history, one can plainly read of the conditional promises of God.God's promises are conditional only in the sense that obedience brings benefit and disobedience brings punishment. No where does God say that the covenant itself is subject to any conditions. Quite the opposite, in Leviticus 26:44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.


Israel did not remain faithful. They killed the prophets who came to them telling them to repent & get right with God.Yes they did. And as God had promised, they were exiled.

Allegra
Jan 15th 2008, 09:47 PM
Well Jesus was a rabbi, not a priest.
:o Well, Jesus was called "Rabbi" in the Bible, bc He was a teacher for one, & bc He was Jewish.
But oh, Jesus was certainly a Priest!
Hebrews 6:13-8
God’s Infallible Purpose in Christ


13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30053a)] 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.Hebrews 7

The King of Righteousness

1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.Need for a New Priesthood


11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30073c)] 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30076d)]


“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30076e)]


18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.Greatness of the New Priest


20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:


“ The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,

‘ You are a priest forever[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30080f)]
According to the order of Melchizedek’”),[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30080g)]

22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who isholy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
Hebrews 8

The New Priestly Service

1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30092h)] 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.A New Covenant


7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30099j)]
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.Footnotes:
Hebrews 6:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30053) Genesis 22:17
Hebrews 6:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30057) M-Text omits [I]might.
Hebrews 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30073) NU-Text reads priests.
Hebrews 7:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30076) NU-Text reads it is testified.
Hebrews 7:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30076) Psalm 110:4
Hebrews 7:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30080) NU-Text ends the quotation here.
Hebrews 7:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30080) Psalm 110:4
Hebrews 8:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30092) Exodus 25:40
Hebrews 8:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30099) NU-Text omits and their lawless deeds.
Hebrews 8:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:13-8:13;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30099) Jeremiah 31:31–34
NO! Every priest, even the ones appointed by Rome, were from the line of Aaron. People to this day can still trace the lineage back. But the High Priest was a Temple functionary. That's it. They did not decide Jewish law (that was the Sanhedrin, which was composed of rabbis). They did not decide foreign policy (that was the king.) The High priest could even be a total ignoramus, and by Jesus's time most were.
Um, not quite. The Saducees believed only in the literal word of the Bible. No rabbinical exposition allowed. That's why they didn't believe in the afterlife which is not mentioned in the Bible. The Pharisees were the ones who wrote the Talmud and as such the precursors to modern-day rabbinical Judaism. I googled some things & I think I am clearer on the religious parties:
As high priest and chief religious authority in the land, Caiaphas had many important responsibilities, including controlling the Temple treasury, managing the Temple police and other personnel, performing religious rituals, and--central to the passion story--serving as president of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish council and court that reportedly considered the case of Jesus.
The high priest had another, more controversial function in first-century Jerusalem: serving as a sort of liason between Roman authority and the Jewish population. High priests, drawn from the Sadducean aristocracy, received their appointment from Rome since the time of Herod the Great, and Rome looked to high priests to keep the Jewish populace in line. We know from other cases (such as one incident in 66 C.E.) that Roman prefects might demand that high priests arrest and turn over Jews seen as agitators.


If you say so. The Pharisees were 'strong' only in that they had the support of the common man. The Saducees had the support of the upper classes, and Rome.Yes, & the upper classes were more acceptable of Rome's dominance-having more to lose.
It was the Pharisee branch that rose up against Rome in the rebellion (initially) that brought on the Great tribulation.
I disagree. But again, I see the obedience of the law as a way of getting closer to God. Since that is it's function, we do indeed need to keep it as precisely as possible.
The High Priests were not the seat of religious authority. All they did was preside over temple ritual. The teachers were rabbis.



Not as Jews see it, then or now.Well, some friends of my family at church are Messianic Jews. They became Christians bc they said they had revelation from the Bible that Jesus was indeed the Messiah that the prophets wrote about.
That's all I have to say about that.:spin:

The seventy weeks refers to something else, from the Jewish perspective. I've not the time to go into it now.Wow, that's new.I'd certainly like to hear your perspective.

This may be true, but it doesn't solve the problem for the Jewish believer. God [B]Himself spoke to all the Jews at Sinai. If God were going to alter the covenant, He Himself would again have to speak to all the Jews.Wow, & didn't many of them turn around after that & raise up a golden calf?
I believe God spoke to His people through the prophets. I guess Jeremiah's words weren't worth beans when he said that God was making a new covenant with Israel? :giveup:

And also my beliefs about the Law. I won't be able to fit it in this post.

Later. Take care :)

Fenris
Jan 15th 2008, 10:01 PM
:o Well, Jesus was called "Rabbi" in the Bible, bc He was a teacher for one, & bc He was Jewish.
But oh, Jesus was certainly a Priest! Priests carried out sacrifice in the Temple. Priests came from the line of Aaron. Since Jesus was neither of these, he was plainly not a priest.


I googled some things & I think I am clearer on the religious parties:
As high priest and chief religious authority in the land, Caiaphas had many important responsibilities, including controlling the Temple treasury, managing the Temple police and other personnel, performing religious rituals, and--central to the passion story--serving as president of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish council and court that reportedly considered the case of Jesus. The bolded section is most certainly not true. The high priest had nothing whatsoever to do with the Sanhedrin.



The high priest had another, more controversial function in first-century Jerusalem: serving as a sort of liason between Roman authority and the Jewish population. High priests, drawn from the Sadducean aristocracy, received their appointment from Rome since the time of Herod the Great, and Rome looked to high priests to keep the Jewish populace in line. We know from other cases (such as one incident in 66 C.E.) that Roman prefects might demand that high priests arrest and turn over Jews seen as agitators. This part IS true.

Note something: the High Priest was appointed by the Romans and a Saducee, while the Sanhedrin was composed of Pharisees who did not like the Roman oppression and the Roman meddling in Jewish religious affairs.


Well, some friends of my family at church are Messianic Jews. They became Christians bc they said they had revelation from the Bible that Jesus was indeed the Messiah that the prophets wrote about.
That's all I have to say about that.:spin:How nice.



Wow, that's new.I'd certainly like to hear your perspective.Do you think Jews don't know our own bible? :lol:


Wow, & didn't many of them turn around after that & raise up a golden calf?3000 or so.

I believe God spoke to His people through the prophets. I guess Jeremiah's words weren't worth beans when he said that God was making a new covenant with Israel? :giveup:Yep. And when He comes and tells all the Jews about the new covenant, it will be in effect. Not until then.


And also my beliefs about the Law. I won't be able to fit it in this post.

Later. Take care :)Peace out, yo. :)

Romulus
Jan 16th 2008, 07:53 PM
Hmm. I don't know if Antiochus destroyed the city. It is true that he defiled the temple, but I don't think that it is the same thing.

Historically Antiochus Epiphanes did not destroy the city, he only defiled the temple by sacrificing a pig on the altar. Also the temple was destroyed only twice:

1) Solomon's Temple-Historically destroyed by Babylon 586 B.C.(I personally believe the date is off by a few years though)

2) The Herodian Temple destroyed by Titus in 70 A.D.

I do agree with Allegra's premise though since we are both Full-Preterists. God Bless.

Allegra
Jan 17th 2008, 09:14 PM
Yep. And when He comes and tells all the Jews about the new covenant, it will be in effect. Not until then.
Peace out, yo. :)
I am reading from the O.T. Exodus 19:9, 9And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Ex.20:18-21,
18And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
So God spoke plainly to Moses, and the people heard thundering & saw lightning & smoke when God spoke to Moses.

We have something similar in the New Testament where God spoke about Jesus, even audibly, in the presence of witnesses.
Mark 9:2-7,

The Transfiguration

2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. 5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
7Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"


Mostly God spoke through the prophets & the Holy Spirit.

Our God is an awesome God, isn't He?

Mods:I'm going to continue with "The Second Coming" topic in next post.

Fenris
Jan 17th 2008, 09:19 PM
7Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"

At Sinai all the Jews in the world heard God. This event was heard only by whoever wrote this gospel. Big difference.

threebigrocks
Jan 17th 2008, 09:53 PM
It's the same as in Daniel 12:11-13
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

The Romans entered the temple & desecrated it by putting their eagle emblems & idols all over it & on the altar during the destruction of Jerusalem & in the end the temple.

The 1290 days is bc Rome took the spoils of war too. They cut open the bellies of some of the dead bc those were so starved they ate gold & silver pieces, but were forcibly ravished by famine. Also, bc Rome didn't want to feed any of the survivors, they sold them as slaves to other nations throughout the empire.
"Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1,335 days."
Just when they were down to the last group of Jews to process, it suddenly happens- Jesus returns for those who "kept waiting" outside Jerusalem. (Rev.12:14) (Micah 2:12)

Hope that helped :)

How long did the Romans desecrate the temple for? Do you take those number literally or figurtively?

Where does it state they ate the precious metals? :hmm:

threebigrocks
Jan 17th 2008, 09:53 PM
At Sinai all the Jews in the world heard God. This event was heard only by whoever wrote this gospel. Big difference.

Precisely, fenris.

Allegra
Jan 18th 2008, 02:01 AM
[quote]How long did the Romans desecrate the temple for? Do you take those number literally or figurtively? The physical number there represents the days of siege by the Roman armies against Jerusalem. It culminates with the destruction of the temple.
The time, times, & a half time in Daniel 7, Daniel's 4th beast (Rome) & the "eleventh horn" that came out of the 10, was Vespasian, the Roman emperor
in AD70 His son was Titus, a military general. Nero(before Vespasian had met with Vespasian in N.W. Athens. Nero, emperor at the time(54-68 AD) gave orders to him to destroy the Jewish population.
The siege & end was Feb.67- Aug/Sept. 70AD As close to 3 1/2 yrs. exactly.

Where does it state they ate the precious metals? :hmm:Are you kidding? They even ate their children from starvation. Josephus, the Jewish historian records these things. This is from history, the Roman-Jewish war.

Excerpt:
I must not disgust the reader by reciting in this place, the miserable resources to
which the wretched inhabitants were now reduced, in order to prolong the sad
remains of life; but one circumstance is so materially connected with the narrative,
that it cannot with any propriety be suppressed. It was in this sad and pinching
conjuncture that an unhappy mother was reduced to the extremity of feeding upon
her own child! This lady, whose name was Miriam, had taken refuge, with many
others, in this devoted city, from the breaking out of the war. As the famine
increased, her house was repeatedly plundered of such provisions as she had been
able to procure. She had vainly endeavored by her entreaties, to prevail upon them,
or by her execrations to provoke them, to put an end to her miserable existence, but
the mercy was too great to be granted her. Frantic at length with fury and despair,
she snatched her infant from her bosom, cut its throat, and broiled it; and having
satiated her present hunger, concealed the rest. The smell of it soon drew the
voracious human tigers to her house; they threatened her with the most excruciating
tortures, if she did not discover her provisions to them. Upon which she set before
them the relics of her mangled infant, bidding them eat heartily and not be
squeamish, since she, its once tender mother, had made no scruple to butcher,
dress, and feed upon it. At the sight of this horrid dish, inhuman as they were, they
stood aghast, petrified with horror, and departed, leaving the astonished mother in
possession of her dismal fare. [Joseph. Wars, b. 6. ch. 3.]

Allegra
Jan 18th 2008, 03:30 AM
Looking at Rev.17:4 & " Mystery Babylon- the mother of harlots"
4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

In chapters 6:9-11; 14:8-20; 17;4-6; 18:5, Babylon would be judged bc she had filled the measure of her sin by persecuting the saints.
In Isaiah 65:6, the prophet foretold the time when Israel would fill the measure of her sin & be destroyed. That destruction would be followed by the new creation. (vs.19f)
When standing in the temple(Matthew 23) Jesus spoke these words to the Jews in light of their past rejection of the prophets & the impending rejection of His "prophets, wise men and scribes," "Fill up then the measure of your fathers guilt"(vs32). Jesus said Jerusalem had not yet filled up the measure of her sin but would do so in His generation.(vs.34-36)

Rev 17:5 The Harlot & her clothes.
"The harlot is arrayed in Jewish priestly colors of scarlet, purple and gold(Ex.28) She has a blasphemous tiara on her forehead which reads: 'Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and the Abominations of the Earth.'(Rev 17:5) This gives the negative portrayal of the holy tiara that the Jewish High Priest wore, which said 'Holy to the Lord' (Ex.28:36-38) Also, the harlot has a gold cup in her hand, as did the High Priest on the Day of Atonement, according to the Talmud." (Dominion 381)

The description of the city in Rev.18:16 is more than suggestive that Jerusalem is in view. "That great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with precious gold and precious stones and pearls."
When reading this, one can hardly keep from thinking of Josephus' description of the temple & its splendor.

Fenris
Jan 18th 2008, 11:17 AM
"The harlot is arrayed in Jewish priestly colors of scarlet, purple and gold(Ex.28) She has a blasphemous tiara on her forehead which reads: 'Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and the Abominations of the Earth.'(Rev 17:5) This gives the negative portrayal of the holy tiara that the Jewish High Priest wore, which said 'Holy to the Lord' (Ex.28:36-38) Also, the harlot has a gold cup in her hand, as did the High Priest on the Day of Atonement, according to the Talmud." (Dominion 381)
Um, like, wow. Whoever wrote this really didn't like Jews.:lol:

Allegra
Jan 18th 2008, 01:59 PM
Um, like, wow. Whoever wrote this really didn't like Jews.:lol:
Well, no, not really. He's just positing an interpretation from the Bible.
As I mentioned, God spoke through the prophets in Biblical times. God promised Israel blessings for obedience, but curses for disobedience.

To think that anyone is anti-semitic in any way is rushing to judgment. For rebuke, warnings & calling for repentance are 1st seen with the O.T. writers. Hebrew brothers & sisters in the flesh themselves.
The Psalmist & Isaiah said that Israel killed the prophets God sent to her (Nehemiah 9), and would kill the Lord (Psalms 16; Isa.53) Daniel foretold the last days total destruction (Dan 12:7) of Israel. Isaiah prophesied that Israel would be destroyed and God would create a new people with a new name (Isa.65-66) Zechariah foretold the time when Jerusalem would be destroyed & 2/3 of the people destroyed (Zech.13-14)
Jeremiah & Malachi prophesied that the time was coming when the temple, the Ark, & the city of Jerusalem would no longer be theologically significant (Jer.3;14; Mal.1:2. Were these prophets, Hebrews themselves, anti-semitic?
I don't think so. These all affirmed love for their nation.

But the good news is Fenris, the preterist viewpoint believes that when Jesus prophesied on the Mt. of Olives, He said, when telling the disciples about the future destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in Luke 21:22, 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
Therefore, from a preterist viewpoint, I believe that God's wrath against Israel was fulfilled. I don't look for any further punishment (from a Biblical standpoint) to come on Israel directly today. I believe what goes on there is entirely political. And has nothing to do with what was written in the Bible, since its history & prophecy ended in AD70.
Have a good day :)

Fenris
Jan 18th 2008, 02:27 PM
Well, no, not really. He's just positing an interpretation from the Bible.
As I mentioned, God spoke through the prophets in Biblical times. God promised Israel blessings for obedience, but curses for disobedience.

To think that anyone is anti-semitic in any way is rushing to judgment. For rebuke, warnings & calling for repentance are 1st seen with the O.T. writers. Riiight. The big difference is that those prophets were Jews. The person who wrote this was not.


Therefore, from a preterist viewpoint, I believe that God's wrath against Israel was fulfilled. I don't look for any further punishment (from a Biblical standpoint) to come on Israel directly today. I believe what goes on there is entirely political. And has nothing to do with what was written in the Bible, since its history & prophecy ended in AD70.
Have a good day :)The establishment of the modern-day state of Israel is not the literal fulfillment of OT prophecy? It looks to me like it is. :hmm:

Teke
Jan 18th 2008, 04:32 PM
The establishment of the modern-day state of Israel is not the literal fulfillment of OT prophecy? It looks to me like it is. :hmm:

How can you believe this if you don't believe the Messiah has come.:confused

Fenris
Jan 18th 2008, 04:35 PM
How can you believe this if you don't believe the Messiah has come.:confused
The ingathering of the exiles is in progress, not completed. Deuteronomy 30 doesn't mention the messiah, anyway, just that God will bring the Jewish people back to Israel.

Fenris
Jan 18th 2008, 04:47 PM
This might surprise some of you, but Hillel believed that there was only one messiah, and he had come and gone: king Hezekiah. Hillel was of the opinion that since Hezekiah and his generation were not worthy of the Final Redemption, there would be no individual messiah. The redemption could only come through a historical process.

Such an opinion was certainly unusual, but there was nothing blasphemous about it.

Teke
Jan 18th 2008, 05:04 PM
The ingathering of the exiles is in progress, not completed. Deuteronomy 30 doesn't mention the messiah, anyway, just that God will bring the Jewish people back to Israel.

Actually it doesn't mention any "Jewish" people, but "Israel". He will gather "Israel" unto Himself (which doesn't mean necessarily a land of ground anywhere), that doesn't mean "Jewish people" per say, as those are associated with a religion, Judaism.

Since God dispersed all of Israel all over the world a long time ago, how do you know who is Israel and who isn't? Was it not His purpose for mankind to do so.

This is just the sort of thing which causes people to become confused about the whole matter. And while I understand that your religion has it's guidelines, it is only a religion and not the defining factor of who Israel is. History shows that Israel had dispute with Judah on religion and it's practice. Which is why Israel worshiped at Samaria and Judah at Jerusalem. And that is in relation to politics.

Yet Jeremiah says in chapter 3, that Judah was worse than Israel in what they did.
And scripture doesn't speak of a reconciliation of the two. Should they not have repented and been reconciled, they have Jacob and Esau as an example. to follow.

Why do you think that Jesus the Messiah, also High Priest and King, came and called the Jews to repentance.

Fenris
Jan 18th 2008, 05:20 PM
Actually it doesn't mention any "Jewish" people, but "Israel". He will gather "Israel" unto Himself (which doesn't mean necessarily a land of ground anywhere), that doesn't mean "Jewish people" per say, as those are associated with a religion, Judaism. Are we reading the same book here?

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee.

The highlighted portion tells me that God will bring a specific people to a specific land, one possessed by their ancestors.



Since God dispersed all of Israel all over the world a long time ago, how do you know who is Israel and who isn't? How do we know who anybody is? Because we have an unbroken chain of people.


This is just the sort of thing which causes people to become confused about the whole matter. And while I understand that your religion has it's guidelines, it is only a religion and not the defining factor of who Israel is. History shows that Israel had dispute with Judah on religion and it's practice. Which is why Israel worshiped at Samaria and Judah at Jerusalem. And that is in relation to politics. What does that have to do with anything?



And scripture doesn't speak of a reconciliation of the two. Yes it does, many times.

Jer 31:30 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;

Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.


Why do you think that Jesus the Messiah, also High Priest and King, came and called the Jews to repentance.I don't think he did. Or did you not notice this about me already? :lol:

Fenris
Jan 18th 2008, 05:30 PM
I've said this before: There's nothing wrong with finding a deeper, spiritual meaning to a biblical verse. But what exactly gives one the right to ignore it's literal meaning?:hmm:

Teke
Jan 18th 2008, 06:16 PM
Are we reading the same book here?

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee.

The highlighted portion tells me that God will bring a specific people to a specific land, one possessed by their ancestors.

Well, that is the point now. The fathers possessed plenty of land having been dispersed throughout the world. You on the other hand are being like Judah about it, it has to be a certain place. It couldn't be the whole world, just one place in the world.

And really, literally and practically speaking, if they were all gathered in one place they couldn't fit, they'd be overflowing into other places.


How do we know who anybody is? Because we have an unbroken chain of people.

What unbroken chain of people, they all married and pro created all over the world.
There were Israelites in my own family lineage in Germany, but they didn't practice the religion Judaism.


What does that have to do with anything?

A lot if your being very literal about it with lineage and so forth. Samarians never practiced the religion of Judaism, nor did Israel quite frankly.


Yes it does, many times.

Jer 31:30 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;

Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

That doesn't say that the people themselves did anything, but that God did it for them. And He has in the Messiah.



I don't think he did. Or did you not notice this about me already? :lol:

Just as there were those who wouldn't hear the prophets, so it was the same with Messiah.
But He did say that He didn't come for those who don't need Him, but for those who do. From what I've read of your posts you don't believe He is necessary anyway (IOW you don't need Him). Judaism is going to do it all for the world. :rolleyes:

Teke
Jan 18th 2008, 06:22 PM
I've said this before: There's nothing wrong with finding a deeper, spiritual meaning to a biblical verse. But what exactly gives one the right to ignore it's literal meaning?:hmm:

The literal meaning shouldn't be ignored as it teaches lessons on what not to do as well as what is good to do.
Scripture wasn't written to be very literal all the time for meaning. Or we'd believe some very strange things.

Fenris
Jan 18th 2008, 06:29 PM
Well, that is the point now. The fathers possessed plenty of land having been dispersed throughout the world. You on the other hand are being like Judah about it, it has to be a certain place. It couldn't be the whole world, just one place in the world. What's the point of God 'gathering them' if they're going to be scattered across the world after the gathering? :confused


And really, literally and practically speaking, if they were all gathered in one place they couldn't fit, they'd be overflowing into other places.No, the borders of the state of Israel, whether modern or ancient, would provide enough space for all the Jews in the world.



What unbroken chain of people, they all married and pro created all over the world. Yes, and the ones who are Jewish today married other Jews and converts to Judaism.



A lot if your being very literal about it with lineage and so forth. Samarians never practiced the religion of Judaism, nor did Israel quite frankly.
But they were descended from the people who God had made a covenant with. They were obligated to do their part and God was obligated to do His.


That doesn't say that the people themselves did anything, but that God did it for them. And He has in the Messiah.Jesus brought the exiles back to Israel? When did that happen?




Just as there were those who wouldn't hear the prophets, so it was the same with Messiah.This is that odd logic I keep commenting about. "Jews didn't listen to prophets, Jews didn't listen to Jesus, ergo Jesus was a prophet." It doesn't exactly make sense.



But He did say that He didn't come for those who don't need Him, but for those who do. From what I've read of your posts you don't believe He is necessary anyway (IOW you don't need Him). Judaism is going to do it all for the world. :rolleyes:
No, I don't believe that Jesus is necessary for the reasons you lay out, from the Jewish perspective anyway.

Judaism is also not going to 'do it all for the world'. We have a role to fill, and that's what we do. Just as every other nation does. But part of our role is the responsibility of ushering in the messianic era by doing what God requires of us. And back to the OP, since the 'second coming' hasn't happened, you can't prove me wrong on this point.

Teke
Jan 18th 2008, 09:22 PM
And back to the OP, since the 'second coming' hasn't happened, you can't prove me wrong on this point.


The point of the thread is that it has, and that it has not, has not been proven yet.
So you have not proven your POV.:bounce:

Allegra
Jan 18th 2008, 10:00 PM
I've said this before: There's nothing wrong with finding a deeper, spiritual meaning to a biblical verse. But what exactly gives one the right to ignore it's literal meaning?:hmm:
Ignoring the literal meanings? How can you project that when it seems you do not even recognize even the most literal statements in the entire Old Testament?
Do you pick & choose only the 1st 5 books of the O.T., then say, "oh the others don't mean anything much?" Am I not fair in my observations? Christians believe the entire O.T. & N.T. & that the Bible is the inspired word of God.
We believe our salvation came from the Jews. But the Bible was written for both Jew & Gentile.

Now when it comes to promises of the physical land of Israel, God did fulfill that promise at the time in Joshua 21. Also God said He would make Abraham's descendants as multiple as the "sand & the sea." I believe there was a time when that was fulfilled. In the days of King David.
However, God's promises were conditional about keeping the land.(Deut.29)

The literal meaning you say I am ignoring is plainly written in Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Now, when the Lord speaks about bringing Israel back from where He scattered them, you must honor the timetable there. That was prophesying after they would return from exile. And the Jews did go back to Jerusalem & rebuilt a 2nd temple. God told Ezekiel He would put a new heart in them & a new spirit. This was the promise to the righteous remnant. This was fulfilled on Pentecost & around the time that the Disciples baptized the Jews (as was a required ritual) to bring them to the faith. Three thousand came forward on the Day of Pentecost alone.

And it doesn't matter if a Jew or Gentile critiques the Bible. God's word is God's word. If God said He rebukes a certain group, then that is a fact in Bible study. Besides, the commentator is talking about something past anyway. Bc there's nothing that can change what was done. It is different only if it is a current state for a person or persons.
There were certainly more enemies of God than just the Jewish contemporaries in Christ's generation. God punished pagans with some swift judgments throughout the Bible.

Quote,Fenris:

The establishment of the modern-day state of Israel is not the literal fulfillment of OT prophecy? It looks to me like it is. :hmm:No Fenris, I don't. I believe those revelant O.T. prophesies were about the coming Messiah & a spiritual Jerusalem: the heavenly Jerusalem. The "New Jerusalem" has a dual meaning. That is why God called it a "new heaven & a new earth." It was to be the consummation of His promises to the righteous remnant of Israel & to the saints of the Lamb in heaven. It is also the new covenant blessings Christians have on earth in Christ. Those that believe in Him are promised eternal life just as those who rose in the 1st century AD- all those who come after. He gives His Holy Spirit to us as a deposit.

If I had read some prophecy also of the Holocaust in the Bible, just preceding that" gathering back from the nations they were scattered", I would think differently. But the Bible shows it was the time of regathering from the exile.
I think Israel became a nation bc of political reasons in their favor. Also the guilt of the Holocaust of the nations for their lack of humanitarian intervention played a huge part. I don't see national Israel as God ordained. I believe it was mostly a Zionist movement.

Teke
Jan 18th 2008, 10:59 PM
....you must honor the timetable...

:agree:
And the truth will set you free! :pp:amen:

Fenris
Jan 20th 2008, 04:37 PM
I actually had an epiphany. I understand why the OT can't be read literally by Christians. :idea:

If it's read literally, it isn't speaking to you. It's speaking to Jews. Sure, there are moral lessons that speak to the whole world. But the specific commands and specific prophecies if read literally are to the Jews and the Jews alone.

So Christians must read it as being 'spiritual' or 'symbolic' or 'metaphoric'. It's the only way it can be referring to you.

Fascinating.... :hmm:

Allegra
Jan 20th 2008, 06:19 PM
I actually had an epiphany. I understand why the OT can't be read literally by Christians. :idea:

If it's read literally, it isn't speaking to you. It's speaking to Jews. Sure, there are moral lessons that speak to the whole world. But the specific commands and specific prophecies if read literally are to the Jews and the Jews alone.

So Christians must read it as being 'spiritual' or 'symbolic' or 'metaphoric'. It's the only way it can be referring to you.

Fascinating.... :hmm:
Ha.I'll see your God & raise ya! Just kidding!
Hey, but you still didn't address what i said about you not reading Jeremiah 31:31 literally yourself?!
And......Isaiah9 (for example) looks pretty literal to me!
The Government of the Promised Son

1 Nevertheless the gloom will not be upon her who is distressed,
As when at first He lightly esteemed
The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
And afterward more heavily oppressed her,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
In Galilee of the Gentiles.
2 The people who walked in darkness
Have seen a great light;
Those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death,
Upon them a light has shined.
3 You have multiplied the nation
And increased its joy;[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ISAIAH9&version=50#fen-NKJV-17829a)]
They rejoice before You
According to the joy of harvest,
As men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4 For You have broken the yoke of his burden
And the staff of his shoulder,
The rod of his oppressor,
As in the day of Midian.
5 For every warrior’s sandal from the noisy battle,
And garments rolled in blood,
Will be used for burning and fuel of fire.
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Here Isaiah knows & is prophesying of the Messiah. This is the everlasting kingdom & covenant mention in Jeremiah to the sons of the promise (Isaac)
Jesus was the "son of David." Christians became grafted in to the "True Israel" as adopted sons & daughters. The True Israel is both the faithful & obedient remnant Israelites, who were not Old covenant breakers AND since the time of Christ, those who entered into the new covenant (who are called Christians)
The fullness of the Gentiles came in before the return of Christ in 70 AD. This fullness was in quality, not quantity, as some Christians say. Paul, an Apostle & former Pharisee, was personally responsible for almost all of bring the gospel to the Gentiles pre-AD70.
And so, all Israel shall be saved (Romans 11) The True Israel. Faithful Jewish Christians & the Gentile Christians who were grafted into the true Olive Tree.
Do you understand any of this prophecy Fenris?

Fenris
Jan 20th 2008, 09:02 PM
Hey, but you still didn't address what i said about you not reading Jeremiah 31:31 literally yourself?!
I dunno. I mean, God says " Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant." He says with Israel and Judah, not the gentiles. And Israel wasn't even around in Jesus's time- they had been exiled 7 centuries earlier. So who's ignoring the literal translation again?;)


And......Isaiah9 (for example) looks pretty literal to me!
The Government of the Promised Son

How Jews translate it: For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

Presumed to be referring to king Hezekiah.


Here Isaiah knows & is prophesying of the Messiah. This is the everlasting kingdom & covenant mention in Jeremiah to the sons of the promise (Isaac)
Jesus was the "son of David." Christians became grafted in to the "True Israel" as adopted sons & daughters. The True Israel is both the faithful & obedient remnant Israelites, who were not Old covenant breakers AND since the time of Christ, those who entered into the new covenant (who are called Christians)
The fullness of the Gentiles came in before the return of Christ in 70 AD. This fullness was in quality, not quantity, as some Christians say. Paul, an Apostle & former Pharisee, was personally responsible for almost all of bring the gospel to the Gentiles pre-AD70.
And so, all Israel shall be saved (Romans 11) The True Israel. Faithful Jewish Christians & the Gentile Christians who were grafted into the true Olive Tree.
Do you understand any of this prophecy Fenris?
This only reiterates my point.

Allegra
Jan 21st 2008, 12:26 AM
I dunno. I mean, God says " Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant." He says with Israel and Judah, not the gentiles. And Israel wasn't even around in Jesus's time- they had been exiled 7 centuries earlier. So who's ignoring the literal translation again?;)Well, it's a prophecy. That means it would happen in the future. And Judah had returned to Israel. A couple of the tribes of Israel also. 20,000 thousand in all returned? I'm sorry it could be more. I don't remember the exact #.
When was Jeremiah given the prophecy? 550 BC? That's a rough guess. Don't hold me to it!
And Isaiah does prophecy to the Hebrews concerning the Gentiles too. In fact, y'all were to be the messengers to bring that light to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:1-10
The Servant of the Lord

1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations. 2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his law the islands will put their hope."
5 This is what God the LORD says—
he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
8 "I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you."
Song of Praise to the Lord

10Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise from the ends of the earth,
you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
you islands, and all who live in them.
Isaiah 49:4-6
4 But I said, "I have labored to no purpose;
I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing.
Yet what is due me is in the LORD's hand,
and my reward is with my God."
5 And now the LORD says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
and my God has been my strength-
6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

God doesn't lose anything. Including the "lost tribes of Israel"
The Apostle James speaks of them in the 1st ch. of his epistle. The Apostle Paul states in the Book of Acts that it was bc of the hope of Israel that he was bound in a chain.(For his brethren in the flesh) Jesus told the Apostles to "go to the lost sheep of Israel" Afterwards God sent Peter to the Gentiles.
Then in Revelation Jesus comes as the "Lion of Judah" Then to end the search, we find in the New Jerusalem "the names of the 12 tribes of Israel" on the gates of the heavenly city, together with the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. So much for God losing anyone.


How Jews translate it: For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

Presumed to be referring to king Hezekiah.What would be so divine about king Hezekiah that he should have the title
"everlasting Father?" "the mighty God?" Prince of Peace?
This is describing Christ, the Son of God.
Matthew 4:15
Jesus Begins to Preach

12When Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, he returned to Galilee. 13Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali— 14to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:
15"Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
the way to the sea, along the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles—
16the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:12-18;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23226a)] 17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
The Calling of the First Disciples

18As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.Footnotes:
Matthew 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:12-18;&version=31;#en-NIV-23226) Isaiah 9:1,2

Fenris
Jan 21st 2008, 01:38 PM
Well, it's a prophecy. That means it would happen in the future. Ah. So you mean there are OT prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled?


Isaiah 42:1-10
The Servant of the Lord The servant is the Jewish people. See my sig.


What would be so divine about king Hezekiah that he should have the title
"everlasting Father?" "the mighty God?" Prince of Peace?That isn't what the verse says. Read my translation again, please.

For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

Allegra
Jan 21st 2008, 05:14 PM
Well, I'm using the King James Version of the Bible. This is generally the most accurate we have.
The titles given still more than suggests a divine person & not a mere man. Moses wasn't even called "mighty God" & he was far greater than Hezekiah. Isaiah 9:6-7
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Zechariah prophesied of the same "light" In the evening time of the Jewish dispensation, there would be light.
Now Zechariah was approx. 550 BC, long after Hezekiah, a king of Judah died. That was 700BC. So the prophecy was still for the future.
Zech.13-14
1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Zechariah 14

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


This can be compared to the New Heavens & New Earth promised when the Kingdom of God & of His Christ, after being the Mediator of the New covenant would come in Glory, a consummation of the promises He made to the OT saints & the saints of the Lamb in the 1st century.
This New Jerusalem (in Revelation) was both symbolic of heaven (for those who were awaiting His "coming soon" to judge the wicked & vindicate the saints-& bring them to glory in heaven)
Then "the New earth" was symbolic of the New covenant blessings we have in Christ on earth. We live ,since then on (AD70) on earth in the "spiritual" state of the New Jerusalem.
I know it must be hard for you to understand this "spiritual" state. In fact, spiritual things are not discernible when man is only in his self-spiritual condition. These spiritual things are only possible when one has the Holy Spirit residing in them. This is one of the gifts of God, through faith in Christ, that He gives us.
Have errands. Will chat later.
Have a pleasant day.

Oh yes, I believe ALL the OT prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century AD.

Teke
Jan 21st 2008, 05:35 PM
Back to the timeline......Fenris said (in post 79,80)


From Post 79
The ingathering of the exiles is in progress, not completed. Deuteronomy 30 doesn't mention the messiah, anyway, just that God will bring the Jewish people back to Israel.


From post 80
This might surprise some of you, but Hillel believed that there was only one messiah, and he had come and gone: king Hezekiah. Hillel was of the opinion that since Hezekiah and his generation were not worthy of the Final Redemption, there would be no individual messiah. The redemption could only come through a historical process.

Such an opinion was certainly unusual, but there was nothing blasphemous about it.

I agree with some you've said here. You previously mentioned Jesus as Prophet, I want to elaborate more from that view.

Priests and Kings were anointed, but God would send an Anointed One, Messiah. If they would believe on Him they would be established. For He would also be a Prophet. Corporate testimony had failed, therefore there would be a division among individuals of the nation on account of Him, so that in times of crisis those whose sins had not been expiated by His priestly work would be excluded from the nation for not hearkening to Him as Prophet (Deut. 18:18,19), and extirpated by His work as King (Is. 6:9-13, 7:9, John 7:40-43, Acts 3:19-26, 13:38-52, Matt. 13:36-43).

In "Him", then, the righteous Servant of Jehovah, the future of Israel is seen in the latter prophets (Is.49)

He is both rejected and accepted. The nation went back to the land to try that question under Divine auspices (Dan. 9:24-27). When they rejected Him, they were not established, but again scattered. But when they accept Him they will be regathered, and never again rooted out.

They can come back only through David (from whom their second breach of covenant referred to was a departure), before the first breach of covenant can be healed up.

This is seen in the introversion of the structure of the prophets. It is the same as the principle on which God works (by introversion). The Law must go forth from Zion.

THE INTER-RELATION OF THE PROPHETIC BOOKS.

C | ISAIAH. Restoration of the throne of David through the priestly work of Messiah, from the standpoint of the two tribes.

D | JEREMIAH. Political disruption, and final restoration of Judah and Ephraim (the twelve tribes) by a new Covenant.

D | EZEKIEL. Ecclesiastical disruption, God ceasing to rule the Land in demonstration; and final restoration of the same, re-establishing all the twelve tribes.

C | THE TWELVE MINOR PROPHETS. Restoration of the throne of David through the priestly work of Messiah, from standpoint of the ten tribes. (See the Structure of these, preceding HOSEA.)


The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 has indeed been made (Matt. 26:28); and can never be made again : for His "blood of the Covenant" has been shed, once for all. Had the nation repented on the proclamation of Peter (Acts 2:38; 3:19-26), all would have been fulfilled; in the same way as John the Baptist would have been taken for Elijah the prophet (Mal. 3:1; 4:5. Cp. Matt. 11:10-15) had the nation, through its rulers, repented at his proclamation (Matt. 3:1, 2) and that of Messiah (Matt. 4:17, &c.). But, seeing that these great calls to "repent" were not obeyed, both fulfillments stand in abeyance, until this one great condition of national restoration and blessing shall have taken place.

The modern doctrine, in certain circles, that the New Covenant holds good with Gentiles now, or with the present-day "house of Israel", would bestow justification on unbelievers. This is not the teaching of Heb. 8 and 10. This does not affect the position of those who are "in Christ" in this Dispensation of the "Mystery". They have all, and more than all, in that "New Covenant" which will yet bring back blessing to Restored Israel.

When that national repentance does take place, the time will come for the travailing woman to bring forth (Isa. 66:8; John 16:19-22). But that is still future. What is true, is that declaration of Jehovah by Micah : "Therefore will He give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth; then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel" (Mic. 5:3).

Modified (by myself here) excerpt from appendix 78 of the KJV Companion Bible
Link here (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append78.html)

Fenris
Jan 21st 2008, 05:49 PM
Well, I'm using the King James Version of the Bible. This is generally the most accurate we have.It's a wonderful translation. It's very poetic. Sometimes, however, it's completely wrong. This is one of those instances.


The titles given still more than suggests a divine person & not a mere man. Moses wasn't even called "mighty God" & he was far greater than Hezekiah.Neither was Hezekiah. You keep using the same verse as proof of something and I keep telling you Jews don't read it that way.




This can be compared to the New Heavens & New Earth promised when the Kingdom of God & of His Christ, after being the Mediator of the New covenant would come in Glory, a consummation of the promises He made to the OT saints & the saints of the Lamb in the 1st century.
This New Jerusalem (in Revelation) was both symbolic of heaven (for those who were awaiting His "coming soon" to judge the wicked & vindicate the saints-& bring them to glory in heaven)
Then "the New earth" was symbolic of the New covenant blessings we have in Christ on earth. We live ,since then on (AD70) on earth in the "spiritual" state of the New Jerusalem.
I know it must be hard for you to understand this "spiritual" state. In fact, spiritual things are not discernible when man is only in his self-spiritual condition. These spiritual things are only possible when one has the Holy Spirit residing in them. This is one of the gifts of God, through faith in Christ, that He gives us.
Have errands. Will chat later.
Have a pleasant day.Right. And again, you're ignoring the literal meaning of the verses. As I've observed, I don't think you have a choice.


Oh yes, I believe ALL the OT prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century AD.Not literally, they weren't.

Fenris
Jan 21st 2008, 05:53 PM
I agree with some you've said here. You previously mentioned Jesus as Prophet, I want to elaborate more from that view.

Priests and Kings were anointed, but God would send an Anointed One, Messiah. If they would believe on Him they would be established. For He would also be a Prophet. Corporate testimony had failed, therefore there would be a division among individuals of the nation on account of Him, so that in times of crisis those whose sins had not been expiated by His priestly work would be excluded from the nation for not hearkening to Him as Prophet (Deut. 18:18,19), and extirpated by His work as King (Is. 6:9-13, 7:9, John 7:40-43, Acts 3:19-26, 13:38-52, Matt. 13:36-43).

In "Him", then, the righteous Servant of Jehovah, the future of Israel is seen in the latter prophets (Is.49)

He is both rejected and accepted. The nation went back to the land to try that question under Divine auspices (Dan. 9:24-27). When they rejected Him, they were not established, but again scattered. But when they accept Him they will be regathered, and never again rooted out.

They can come back only through David (from whom their second breach of covenant referred to was a departure), before the first breach of covenant can be healed up.

This is seen in the introversion of the structure of the prophets. It is the same as the principle on which God works (by introversion). The Law must go forth from Zion.

THE INTER-RELATION OF THE PROPHETIC BOOKS.

C | ISAIAH. Restoration of the throne of David through the priestly work of Messiah, from the standpoint of the two tribes.

D | JEREMIAH. Political disruption, and final restoration of Judah and Ephraim (the twelve tribes) by a new Covenant.

D | EZEKIEL. Ecclesiastical disruption, God ceasing to rule the Land in demonstration; and final restoration of the same, re-establishing all the twelve tribes.

C | THE TWELVE MINOR PROPHETS. Restoration of the throne of David through the priestly work of Messiah, from standpoint of the ten tribes. (See the Structure of these, preceding HOSEA.)


The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 has indeed been made (Matt. 26:28); and can never be made again : for His "blood of the Covenant" has been shed, once for all. Had the nation repented on the proclamation of Peter (Acts 2:38; 3:19-26), all would have been fulfilled; in the same way as John the Baptist would have been taken for Elijah the prophet (Mal. 3:1; 4:5. Cp. Matt. 11:10-15) had the nation, through its rulers, repented at his proclamation (Matt. 3:1, 2) and that of Messiah (Matt. 4:17, &c.). But, seeing that these great calls to "repent" were not obeyed, both fulfillments stand in abeyance, until this one great condition of national restoration and blessing shall have taken place.

The modern doctrine, in certain circles, that the New Covenant holds good with Gentiles now, or with the present-day "house of Israel", would bestow justification on unbelievers. This is not the teaching of Heb. 8 and 10. This does not affect the position of those who are "in Christ" in this Dispensation of the "Mystery". They have all, and more than all, in that "New Covenant" which will yet bring back blessing to Restored Israel.

When that national repentance does take place, the time will come for the travailing woman to bring forth (Isa. 66:8; John 16:19-22). But that is still future. What is true, is that declaration of Jehovah by Micah : "Therefore will He give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth; then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel" (Mic. 5:3).

Modified (by myself here) excerpt from appendix 78 of the KJV Companion Bible
Link here (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append78.html) I would love to comment on this but I don't really understand any of it.

Teke
Jan 21st 2008, 06:09 PM
I would love to comment on this but I don't really understand any of it.

Who is the Prophet spoken of in Deut. 18:18,19 and what does that mean to you as a Jew?

I've used the law, prophets, kings, and priests to try and clarify it for you. If you who are a Jew cannot understand from all that, then who can from written words.:dunno:

Fenris
Jan 21st 2008, 06:26 PM
Who is the Prophet spoken of in Deut. 18:18,19 and what does that mean to you as a Jew?It means that God will appoint prophets. And He did.


I've used the law, prophets, kings, and priests to try and clarify it for you. If you who are a Jew cannot understand from all that, then who can from written words.:dunno:
Because you're ignoring the literal translation of the verses.

Teke
Jan 21st 2008, 07:00 PM
It means that God will appoint prophets. And He did.

Verse 15 is specifically speaking of "one" Prophet, like Moses. Are you telling me that Jewish people view all the prophets like Moses?

It is a fact (historically), that in the first century they were looking for this "one" Prophet like Moses. Are you denying this?


Because you're ignoring the literal translation of the verses.

How so? I'm being very literal on this point.
I've shown Him as Prophet in Deuteronomy, Priest in Psalms and King in Zechariah.

Fenris
Jan 21st 2008, 08:20 PM
Verse 15 is specifically speaking of "one" Prophet, like Moses. Are you telling me that Jewish people view all the prophets like Moses?
All prophets were like Moses in that they were "A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me..."



It is a fact (historically), that in the first century they were looking for this "one" Prophet like Moses. Are you denying this?Was Jesus the only prophet the Jews ever produced?



How so? I'm being very literal on this point.
I've shown Him as Prophet in Deuteronomy, Priest in Psalms and King in Zechariah.Yes, in this point you are in fact being hyper-literal. But then when verses speak of God returning the Jews to Israel you interpret them as being metaphorical.

Teke
Jan 21st 2008, 08:44 PM
All prophets were like Moses in that they were "A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me..."

Was Jesus the only prophet the Jews ever produced?

Your evading the obvious. Not all the prophets were like Moses, even scripture points this fact out.



Yes, in this point you are in fact being hyper-literal. But then when verses speak of God returning the Jews to Israel you interpret them as being metaphorical.

There is a difference in "Jews to Israel" and "Israel being gathered". But we've already covered that difference. An Israelite is not necessarily a Jew (one who practices Judaism). The two sisters are nonetheless gathered together into One.

Also, any Jew who wants to go to Israel is perfectly capable of doing so without God.

Fenris
Jan 21st 2008, 09:53 PM
Your evading the obvious. Not all the prophets were like Moses, even scripture points this fact out.They were all like Moses in that they were all "from among you, from your brothers, like me..."

In any case, Deuteronomy also says that "Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses..." so he clearly had some quality that every other prophet lacked.




There is a difference in "Jews to Israel" and "Israel being gathered". But we've already covered that difference. An Israelite is not necessarily a Jew (one who practices Judaism). The two sisters are nonetheless gathered together into One.This is another one of these 'metaphorical' translations that I don't understand.


Also, any Jew who wants to go to Israel is perfectly capable of doing so without God.Yes, this is true today. Was it true 100 years ago?

Allegra
Jan 22nd 2008, 01:16 AM
When that national repentance does take place, the time will come for the travailing woman to bring forth (Isa. 66:8; John 16:19-22). But that is still future. What is true, is that declaration of Jehovah by Micah : "Therefore will He give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth; then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel" (Mic. 5:3).

Modified (by myself here) excerpt from appendix 78 of the KJV Companion Bible
Link here (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append78.html)
Teke, are you a dispensationalist, otherwise known as a Christian Zionist?
In Micah, God was inspiring hope by speaking of the coming Messiah & His kingdom of peace. And always note God's REMNANT Israel. Not the difference between Israel & Judah, for Israel & Judah were reunited as one by God. True Israel is the Remnant& the believing Gentiles in the 1st century.

Here's the "Travailing woman" She already gave birth! The Old Testament is God's will concealed. The N.T. is God's will revealed. (Daniel had to close up the scroll. In Revelation, the scroll is opened!)
Here's the timing (pre-AD70) for the travailing woman: (Jerusalem)
Revelation12
The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon

1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.Satan Thrown Out of Heaven


7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev12&version=50#fen-NKJV-30894a)] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”The Woman Persecuted


13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev12&version=50#fen-NKJV-30903b)]

A "woman" in scripture represents an ecclesiastical or religious figure. The woman here is Israel. Actually it is the Apostolic church in Jerusalem if we consider the context of the whole chapter.
This is denoting how "she" would escape Nero & the persecuting & destroying Roman armies during the Great Tribulation.

The Great Tribulation was the 3 1/2 year period of the siege of Jerusalem. Ending with the destruction of the temple in AD70. This also was the end of theocratic Israel. The inauguration of the New covenant & the official passing of the Old AND THE LAW!
Christ came at the 7th trumpet. This is the same as the resurrection in Rev20.
When the power of the holy people was finally broken. (Dan 12)

Mt. Zion is the spiritual & heavenly Mt Zion. The Jerusalem which is above. The mother of us all. (I like that saying, if you noticed by now!)

OH yes, & the 31/2 yr. period was also Satan's "little season" as per Rev20.

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 01:16 PM
Teke, are you a dispensationalist, otherwise known as a Christian Zionist?
:rofl:

She doesn't even think that today's Jews are descended from the Biblical Jews. How could she be a Christian Zionist?

Teke
Jan 22nd 2008, 04:11 PM
Teke, are you a dispensationalist, otherwise known as a Christian Zionist?

I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian. There are many here who would find the accusation of "Zionist" or "dispensationalist" quite funny in relation to me. IOW nothing could be further from the truth.

I can understand why you may not understand what I am putting forth in relation to Fenris' understanding (that being a Jewish understanding). And without the priesthood Fenris may have a hard time understanding as well. But, even with the law (scripture) it should be understandable.




In Micah, God was inspiring hope by speaking of the coming Messiah & His kingdom of peace. And always note God's REMNANT Israel. Not the difference between Israel & Judah, for Israel & Judah were reunited as one by God. True Israel is the Remnant& the believing Gentiles in the 1st century.

I understand this, but Fenris doesn't because he doesn't understand Jesus Christ.

Teke
Jan 22nd 2008, 04:15 PM
:rofl:

She doesn't even think that today's Jews are descended from the Biblical Jews. How could she be a Christian Zionist?

You misunderstand what I am saying. An Israelite isn't necessarily a Jew. A Jew is one who practices Judaism as well as being a descendent of a tribe of Israel.

Or to put it in a biblical perspective, in the 1st century you read about Samarians and Jews, both contain Israelites. What is the difference in your opinion?

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 04:43 PM
You are correct: Judaism is both a religion and an ethnic group. Ideally, all ethnic Jews would practice the Jewish religion although of course that isn't the case.

A careful reading of the bible shows that God's promises apply to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who also practice the Jewish faith. Not that we don't accept converts, of course. But the people descended from the patriarchs don't have a choice in the matter. We must obey.

Teke
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:04 PM
Fenris, I suppose you could call me a convert to the Jewish faith, but in the Messianic era I wouldn't call it Judaism.

BTW, that ethnic issue is a stumbling block even today. Which is why I say I am an Eastern Orthodox, eastern as it relates to theological thought and orthodox in relation to right thought. But all come from Jerusalem where it all began.
All this is to show the lineage or procession of a particular group. In this case , that which came from Israel, which is Jesus and the holy Apostles.

It is more confusing to the average person for me to say I am a Russian Orthodox because my church is affiliated with that patriarchate. And it is plain I am an American also. So whether one hears of a Greek, Russian, Coptic, Ethiopian etc Orthodox, they all proceed from the same source. :)

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:12 PM
Fenris, I suppose you could call me a convert to the Jewish faith, but in the Messianic era I wouldn't call it Judaism. You're self-identifying yourself as such. A religious Jewish person would not agree with that identification though.

Allegra
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:52 PM
She doesn't even think that today's Jews are descended from the Biblical Jews. How could she be a Christian Zionist?
Well now, I may think there may certainly be a genealogy aspect. But that's not the point from a covenant Christian view.
There were 2 kinds of Israel, if you will. One remained faithful to the Old covenant & those alive when Christ came, accepted the Messiah & were blessed. When Christ returned in AD70, He fulfilled the promises of the Old covenant faithful (dead) & vindicated those with the new faith by taking them to heaven to be glorified.
The other Israel was called by God, & through many of the prophets, THE HARLOT. These went to their doom after suffering God's wrath (famine & the sword) during the Roman siege of Jerusalem & the temple destruction.
At the general resurrection in Rev.20, we see Daniel's people also(the Jewish people) Those who were in the Book of Life were raised to heaven for eternal life. (Dan 12) Please note that the daily sacrifice in Dan. verses pertain to the siege when there were no more lambs or animals to sacrifice. They were literally starved to the point of death then.
But also raised were those from Daniel's people were those who went to everlasting contempt & punishment. Those not written in the Book of Life.

I have nothing against Israel politically. They obtained the land back legally. Israel is one of our allies & a democratic country. We support their military against terrorism. There's nothing left to say.

I do not say these things bc I want to argue Judaism or pay you any disrespect. I believe in Religious freedom.
But giving my Christian viewpoint and regarding preterism, I just would like you to know that I am stating those opinions bc that is what I believe to be true. I have no intention, like Christian zionists to give false hope to Jewish people & say that the Messiah will still return & save Israel!

I believe what is true for Jewish people today or Buddhists or atheists. That they always have the opportunity, before they die of course, to accept Christ's free gift of eternal life.
That is the main promise that Christianity has that no other religion has imo. I mean they can call their "next life" whatever- but I've checked it out- & I didn't buy it-no way.

I must continue in another post bc of word limits.......

Allegra
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:01 PM
Now when it comes to differentiation of Israel of the flesh & those of the Spirit, I will refer to the Apostle Paul. Remember him? He was a former Pharisee & well taught in the Law & the prophets.
You may not understand it, but this is where I developed my viewpoint from.
ROMANS 2:17-4:25
17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 3

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Allegra
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:20 PM
And the Law. Same writer,Paul.
Galatians 2:11-5:15

No Return to the Law
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29090a)] compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
[B]Galatians 3

Justification by Faith

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29098c)] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29098d)] as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29103e)] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29105f)] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.The Law Brings a Curse


10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29107g)] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29108h)] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29110j)]), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.The Changeless Promise


15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29113k)]who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29114l)] that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.Purpose of the Law


19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.Sons and Heirs


26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.Galatians 4

1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[m (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29130m)] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[n (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29133n)] God through Christ.
Fears for the Church


8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What[o (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29141o)] then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
17 They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them. 18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you. 19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, 20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.Two Covenants


21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[p (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29150p)] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:


“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”[q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29153q)]

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[r (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29156r)] 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.Galatians 5

Christian Liberty

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[s (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29158s)] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.Love Fulfills the Law


7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[t (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29171t)] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!Footnotes:
Galatians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29090) NU-Text reads [I]how can you.
Galatians 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29090) Some interpreters stop the quotation here.
Galatians 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29098) NU-Text omits that you should not obey the truth.
Galatians 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29098) NU-Text omits among you.
Galatians 3:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29103) Genesis 15:6
Galatians 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29105) Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14
Galatians 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29107) Deuteronomy 27:26
Galatians 3:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29108) Habakkuk 2:4
Galatians 3:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29109) Leviticus 18:5
Galatians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29110) Deuteronomy 21:23
Galatians 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29113) Genesis 12:7; 13:15; 24:7
Galatians 3:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29114) NU-Text omits in Christ.
Galatians 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29130) Or made
Galatians 4:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29133) NU-Text reads through God and omits through Christ.
Galatians 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29141) NU-Text reads Where.
Galatians 4:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29150) NU-Text and M-Text omit the.
Galatians 4:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29153) Isaiah 54:1
Galatians 4:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29156) Genesis 21:10
Galatians 5:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29158) NU-Text reads For freedom Christ has made us free; stand fast therefore.
Galatians 5:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%202:13-5:15;&version=50;#en-NKJV-29171) Leviticus 19:18Also, notice verse 4:25. Paul speaks of the state of the PHYSICAL Jerusalem. And the date he is speaking is approx. 54AD. This was before the return of Christ in 70AD. But that was also the attitude of 2/3 of the Israelites in Jesus' day & Paul's.

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:25 PM
Well now, I may think there may certainly be a genealogy aspect. But that's not the point from a covenant Christian view. Well, I'm describing the Jewish view. It may or may not be interesting to you, I don't know.


There were 2 kinds of Israel, if you will. One remained faithful to the Old covenant & those alive when Christ came, accepted the Messiah & were blessed.Unintentionally humorous. Those faithful to the old covenant accepted the new one? So those who didn't accept the new one were unfaithful to the old one? Even as they upheld it?


When Christ returned in AD70, He fulfilled the promises of the Old covenant faithful (dead) & vindicated those with the new faith by taking them to heaven to be glorified.I thought he returned 3 days after being crucified, not 38 some-odd years later.



The other Israel was called by God, & through many of the prophets, THE HARLOT. Um, I guess this would be me.:lol:


These went to their doom after suffering God's wrath (famine & the sword) during the Roman siege of Jerusalem & the temple destruction.Oddly enough, many Jewish Christians also perished in the destruction of Jerusalem.



I have nothing against Israel politically. They obtained the land back legally. Israel is one of our allies & a democratic country. We support their military against terrorism. There's nothing left to say.Well I can't complain about this part.


I do not say these things bc I want to argue Judaism or pay you any disrespect. I believe in Religious freedom.As do I.


But giving my Christian viewpoint and regarding preterism, I just would like you to know that I am stating those opinions bc that is what I believe to be true. I have no intention, like Christian zionists to give false hope to Jewish people & say that the Messiah will still return & save Israel!Well, I also believe that the messiah will return and save Israel. And I believe that regardless of what people tell me, pro or con.


I believe what is true for Jewish people today or Buddhists or atheists. That they always have the opportunity, before they die of course, to accept Christ's free gift of eternal life.And if they believe the wrong thing, they go to hell forever?


That is the main promise that Christianity has that no other religion has imo. I mean they can call their "next life" whatever- but I've checked it out- & I didn't buy it-no way.Yes, and it's a nice package. Believe the right thing, you go to heaven.

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:41 PM
Now when it comes to differentiation of Israel of the flesh & those of the Spirit, I will refer to the Apostle Paul.
So this begs the question: the promises God made to Abraham regarding his descendants- who did that refer to?


Remember him? He was a former Pharisee & well taught in the Law & the prophets.I know he made that claim. I don't necessarily buy it though.


You may not understand it, but this is where I developed my viewpoint from.
Right, and this is all very interesting. The problem with it, from the Jewish perspective, is that it's a complete break from everything written in the Jewish bible. One can find no evidence of such concepts there.

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:43 PM
.The Law Brings a Curse
No Jewish person could ever agree to this statement. The Law is the greatest thing God could give us. Not only has it done a tremendous job of civilizing mankind, but it is God telling us exactly what we must to to please Him and to show our love for Him. How could that possibly be a bad thing?

Allegra
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:59 PM
Fenris, I will reply to your reply a bit later. I am pressed for time, so I would like to drive home my preterist point of view, especially where the Law is concerned.

When Jesus said in Luke 16:16-17:
16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

My main points are that: the Law was about to pass away.
2) heaven & earth is symbolic. It was not the literal heaven & earth.
The prophetic meaning here of heaven & earth is: The whole universe, political or religious. Heaven is always the symbol of government, the higher places in the political universe. "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall never pass away." (Mt 24:35) Here the Jewish power is represented as the "heaven & earth." & its symbol denotes its passing away. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished." Jesus was born under the Law. But all would cease when all was accomplished (at His return in AD70)

Also, the Apostle Peter said: The present heaven & earth were reserved for fire. Many Christians think he is describing the dissolution of this world today.
Oh, they do make a major misinterpretation of that verse!
First, Peter's words say "the present heaven & earth" Not 2,000 yrs. later.
Second, God would never destroy heaven, for one, so we cannot even think about taking that verse in a literal sense, but must apply the prophet interpretation to the symbols within the literary genre.
Now, God didn't even destroy the foundations of the world when He sent the Flood. He only destroyed the wicked that was within. Then we have the same application to the "heaven & earth" as Jesus said (above.)
Then the symbol of "fire" is misunderstood also. This would be a description of the fiery tar-pitched laden missiles the Roman army used against Jerusalem in the Roman-Jewish war, ending in AD70.
So, we do not have God destroying the whole earth. We have God destroying & desolating (Daniel 9) Jerusalem!

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 07:03 PM
Fenris, I will reply to your reply a bit later. I am pressed for time, so I would like to drive home my preterist point of view, especially where the Law is concerned.

That's ok.

As I said, this is all very interesting. I just don't find it believable.

Teke
Jan 22nd 2008, 07:30 PM
A religious Jewish person would not agree with that identification though.

But one who believed Messiah had come might. :D
As the Messianic era would be different.

Where Allegra and I differ, is that my view explains the law along with everything else. Allegra has shown in previous posts that the law is insignificant in the preterist view.

IOW I can explain it from the law (scripture), or the prophets or the priesthood. And what do these things compose, Israel. Or else Israel is like 2 Chronicles says, "Now for a long season Israel [hath been] without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law."

Judaism is without the priesthood. Christianity is not, and, has an eternal sacrifice made by an eternal High Priest, as well as the law (which we call "cannons" and includes scripture) and prophets (which we call desert fathers).

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 07:38 PM
But one who believed Messiah had come might. :DRight, that's true. Whether such a person could be called a religious Jew is another matter entirely.


Where Allegra and I differ, is that my view explains the law along with everything else. Allegra has shown in previous posts that the law is insignificant in the preterist view.Yes, I find this viewpoint very interesting and unusual.



Judaism is without the priesthood.Yes, that is true. But then, so what? :lol:

Teke
Jan 22nd 2008, 07:59 PM
Right, that's true. Whether such a person could be called a religious Jew is another matter entirely.

They wouldn't be so in Judaisms present state of thinking.;)


Yes, I find this viewpoint very interesting and unusual.

It's unusual to westerners because they don't understand the law without understanding priesthood and how it all works together.


Yes, that is true. But then, so what? :lol:

It all works together. Priesthood and prophets make a difference.

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 08:26 PM
They wouldn't be so in Judaisms present state of thinking.;)Right. The same could be said for 1st century Judaism. Whether us or them were correct or not is something we'll obviously disagree on.



It's unusual to westerners because they don't understand the law without understanding priesthood and how it all works together.True. In fact, I don't even understand what you just said! :lol:



It all works together. Priesthood and prophets make a difference.Well, we don't have either today. We haven't had priests in 2000 years and prophets in 2400 years. Yet we are still here, still thriving, still flourishing...

Allegra
Jan 23rd 2008, 01:15 AM
ell, I'm describing the Jewish view. It may or may not be interesting to you, I don't know.
[quote]
Unintentionally humorous. Those faithful to the old covenant accepted the new one? So those who didn't accept the new one were unfaithful to the old one? Even as they upheld it?Well, we have to consider there was a remnant faithful to God but those were in the grave. Those alive at Christ's coming (Jews) who accepted Jesus were still part of the remnat bc the judgment AND resurrection in AD70 marks "the end."
Jesus told the Pharisee & Sanhedrin type Jews (who rejected Him) that they would see Him coming in the clouds of heaven. That would happen in 70AD. Jesus would be coming in judgment of the unbelievers & also for vindication of all the believers & OT faithful dead (to raise them from Hades)
It's not they these 1st century Jews upheld the Law. God had spoken through the prophets regarding the Messiah & the resurrection. When the Messiah came, 2/3 did not listen to Him bc they wanted a materialistic kingdom & not redemption from sin & the grave. Jesus said about those who didn't accept Him, that they (& their forefathers would be held responsible for killing the prophets & for all blood shed on earth since Abel)
Deut. 28:48-68 portrays the Roman siege & destruction of Jerusalem like no other!
Deut.28:48-68
45 “Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever.
47 “Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.
52 “They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the LORD your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut.28:45-68;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-5668a)] to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.
58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the LORD your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
64 “Then the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known—wood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.
68 “And the LORD will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.’ And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”
Footnotes:
Deuteronomy 28:56 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut.28:45-68;&version=50;#en-NKJV-5668) Literally her eye shall be evil towardAnd so it happened, in the Great tribulation. That was God-ordained.


I thought he returned 3 days after being crucified, not 38 some-odd years later.He arose from the dead 3 days later. He went back to the Father & came in glory after the tribulation to gather His elect. This was also judgment day .
He officially delivered up the Old covenant earth to the Father & established the His kingdom. This is a spiritual kingdom of the righteous. For "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."
Revelation 11:15-19
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed


15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.11:15-19;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30882a)] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:


“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His [B]covenant[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.11:15-19;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30886c)] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. (emph. mine)
Footnotes:
Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.11:15-19;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30882) NU-Text and M-Text read kingdom . . . has become.
Revelation 11:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.11:15-19;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30884) NU-Text and M-Text omit and who is to come.
Revelation 11:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.11:15-19;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30886) M-Text reads the covenant of the Lord.This was the official change in covenants.


Oddly enough, many Jewish Christians also perished in the destruction of Jerusalem. Actually, that is not accurate according to historians (Josephus & Tacitus)
Many heeded Christ's prophecy on the Mt. of Olives some 35-40 yrs prior, telling them about the destruction of Jerusalem, & the signs to look for beforehand. Many Jewish Christians fled the city to Pella & other cities before the most horrendous calamities began.



Well, I also believe that the messiah will return and save Israel. And I believe that regardless of what people tell me, pro or con. Well, I understand. But what if you're wrong, & someone like me is right? Is it worth the difference between having eternal life through belief in Jesus & not before one dies? Some people say they don't care one way or the other. It's obvious to me those were people of some cult or something, & they said they wouldn't dare have God boss over them. They can't humble themselves enough in this life to come to Christ or God even. They want to behave & live the way they want in this life regardless of their eternal destiny. So be it, I would think... that's where I let sinners go on sinning, etc.

And if they believe the wrong thing, they go to hell forever?It's not a "thing" they could believe in though. And He is rewarding in this life also. And the strangest thing is that many unbelievers think when you die-that's it no nothing-so they don't care. I have had my "burning bush" experience. The Lord answered something for me about a prayer I had requested almost 30 yrs. prior after my parents were killed. I was 18. When God answered it was the sign I was to know some 29 yrs. later. "The Lord is close to the broken-hearted" (Isaiah) Anyway I finally got my answer about their fate. This followed a week after my brother(& only sibling) was murdered. I don't mention it much bc some might say I was so saddened & in shock that I hallucinated it. Well, I have worked as a psychiatric nurse & I really know how to keep things physical & spiritual. Besides, would they consider the cost it came about from?
So, believe you me, I'm a true believer. God still small voice is even audible to me at times. It is so soothing & comforting. We know His voice & can tell the difference between our own thoughts & noise. Most Christians say that the Holy Spirit just "impresses"something on them. This is for the most part what happens with me too. But I have had "deep" seasons too. I like the neutral seasons also.
Anyway, I'm rambling Fenris. Thanks for listening.


Yes, and it's a nice package. Believe the right thing, you go to heaven.Like I said, it's not a "thing," to be sure.
And it's the Greatest story ever told! :saint:

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 01:03 PM
Well, we have to consider there was a remnant faithful to God but those were in the grave. Those alive at Christ's coming (Jews) who accepted Jesus were still part of the remnat bc the judgment AND resurrection in AD70 marks "the end."
Jesus told the Pharisee & Sanhedrin type Jews (who rejected Him) that they would see Him coming in the clouds of heaven. That would happen in 70AD.Do we have any evidence that this in fact happened?


It's not they these 1st century Jews upheld the Law. Some did and some didn't. Just like Jews today.


God had spoken through the prophets regarding the Messiah & the resurrection. Agreed. We'll differ on what He said though.


When the Messiah came, 2/3 did not listen to HimI'd say it was a lot more than that. Probably 90% or more didn't.


bc they wanted a materialistic kingdom & not redemption from sin & the grave.They wanted what God promised. Since Jesus did not fulfill what God promised they didn't follow him. I know you say he fulfilled it in a 'spiritual, metaphorical way' but as I have stated many times we don't believe anyone has the right to ignore the literal translation of the text.


Jesus said about those who didn't accept Him, that they (& their forefathers would be held responsible for killing the prophets & for all blood shed on earth since Abel)So if I don't accept Jesus the I'm guilty of the Holocaust? :rolleyes:



Deut. 28:48-68 portrays the Roman siege & destruction of Jerusalem like no other!Yes, this is true. But Deuteronomy 30 describes what will happen after that. And that hasn't happened, yet.

This was the official change in covenants.As I've already said, since God told all the Jews in the world about the first covenant, at Sinai, He was obligated to tell all the Jews in the world about this new one. We don't have any evidence of such a thing occurring...


Actually, that is not accurate according to historians (Josephus & Tacitus)
Many heeded Christ's prophecy on the Mt. of Olives some 35-40 yrs prior, telling them about the destruction of Jerusalem, & the signs to look for beforehand. Many Jewish Christians fled the city to Pella & other cities before the most horrendous calamities began.But the Jerusalem church was completely destroyed, along with all it's followers. They were the most direct link to Jesus and his teachings- not Paul, who never met him.



Well, I understand. But what if you're wrong, & someone like me is right? Is it worth the difference between having eternal life through belief in Jesus & not before one dies? Some people say they don't care one way or the other. It's obvious to me those were people of some cult or something, & they said they wouldn't dare have God boss over them. They can't humble themselves enough in this life to come to Christ or God even. They want to behave & live the way they want in this life regardless of their eternal destiny. So be it, I would think... that's where I let sinners go on sinning, etc.But I do let God 'boss over me' as you so poetically put it.


It's not a "thing" they could believe in though. And He is rewarding in this life also. And the strangest thing is that many unbelievers think when you die-that's it no nothing-so they don't care.That is true.


I have had my "burning bush" experience. So have I. So have many Muslims and Buddhists and Hindu. A spiritual experience is very personal and can happy to people of any faith.


The Lord answered something for me about a prayer I had requested almost 30 yrs. prior after my parents were killed.I am sorry to hear this.



So, believe you me, I'm a true believer. God still small voice is even audible to me at times. It is so soothing & comforting. We know His voice & can tell the difference between our own thoughts & noise. Most Christians say that the Holy Spirit just "impresses"something on them. This is for the most part what happens with me too. But I have had "deep" seasons too. I like the neutral seasons also.
Anyway, I'm rambling Fenris. Thanks for listening. Hey, I'm glad that your faith in God got you through the tough times.


Like I said, it's not a "thing," to be sure.
And it's the Greatest story ever told! :saint:Right. that doesn't make it true, though.

Teke
Jan 23rd 2008, 01:35 PM
Well, we don't have either today. We haven't had priests in 2000 years and prophets in 2400 years. Yet we are still here, still thriving, still flourishing...

Truth is God has not left you without, that you are, is only by your own choice.
IOW you either receive or reject priest and prophet. Nonetheless, Jesus is Israel's (by the tribes of Judah and Levi) final Prophet, Priest and King.

What you would need to prove your side of this, if it be true, is prophets that prophesied after the destruction of the second temple. Because the OT prophets only prophesied of a second temple and the Messiah's coming within that time frame.

Teke
Jan 23rd 2008, 01:38 PM
But the Jerusalem church was completely destroyed, along with all it's followers. They were the most direct link to Jesus and his teachings- not Paul, who never met him.



But they weren't. Some fled to the desert, later to be called desert fathers.;)

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:15 PM
Truth is God has not left you without, that you are, is only by your own choice.It just isn't seen as necessary. Truth be told, I don't see why it's necessary in Christianity either. If all that's important is accepting Jesus's sacrifice, why have priests?


IOW you either receive or reject priest and prophet. Nonetheless, Jesus is Israel's (by the tribes of Judah and Levi) final Prophet, Priest and King.Well, that's a point of faith, not fact.


What you would need to prove your side of this, if it be true, is prophets that prophesied after the destruction of the second temple. Because the OT prophets only prophesied of a second temple and the Messiah's coming within that time frame.Um...really? Where?

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:16 PM
But they weren't. Some fled to the desert, later to be called desert fathers.;)I have never heard of these 'desert fathers'. I'm willing to bet most others here haven't either. Perhaps you could tell us more about them...?

Teke
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:34 PM
It just isn't seen as necessary.

Really.....

Exd 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


Well, that's a point of faith, not fact.

According to Jesus genealogy it is a fact also.


Um...really? Where?

Where what??

Teke
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:41 PM
I have never heard of these 'desert fathers'. I'm willing to bet most others here haven't either. Perhaps you could tell us more about them...?

Well the first one was John the Baptist, son of a Levitical priest. Aka John the Forerunner. His example along with Jesus is their following.

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:54 PM
Really.....

Exd 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Where does this say that priests are necessary? It says everyone will be a priest.


According to Jesus genealogy it is a fact also.No, it isn't. He wasn't a priest, he wasn't a king, and we'll debate on whether he was a prophet or not.



Where what??Where did "OT prophets only prophesied of a second temple and the Messiah's coming within that time frame."

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:55 PM
Well the first one was John the Baptist, son of a Levitical priest. Aka John the Forerunner. His example along with Jesus is their following.He didn't run off into the desert following the Roman destruction of the Temple. He was one of Jesus's contemporaries.

Teke
Jan 23rd 2008, 03:26 PM
Where does this say that priests are necessary? It says everyone will be a priest.

If they are not necessary then why is everyone a priest.


No, it isn't. He wasn't a priest, he wasn't a king, and we'll debate on whether he was a prophet or not.

According to lineage it is not an impossibility. Matter of fact there were many Jews who were confused in thinking He was from Nazareth of Galilee, when He was born in Bethlehem (following David).

1Sa 16:1 ¶ And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.



2Sa 23:15 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which [is] by the gate!

1Ch 11:17 And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, that [is] at the gate!

God gave David that water. ;)


Where did "OT prophets only prophesied of a second temple and the Messiah's coming within that time frame."

This thread has shown plenty scripture on that.


He didn't run off into the desert following the Roman destruction of the Temple. He was one of Jesus's contemporaries.

Yes, and others followed his example living in the desert of Egypt. Some of their saying are collected in what is known as "Apophthegmata Patrum".

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 03:41 PM
If they are not necessary then why is everyone a priest.If we were worthy we would be a holy nation and a kingdom of priests- to the rest of the world. We aren't right now (in an obvious way, anyhow) so obviously it isn't necessary.



According to lineage it is not an impossibility.Yes it is.
Priests come from the line of Aaron. Kings come from the line of David. No one can come from both.




This thread has shown plenty scripture on that.I must have missed it. Maybe you can show me where, since you claim it's here.




Yes, and others followed his example living in the desert of Egypt. Some of their saying are collected in what is known as "Apophthegmata Patrum".According to this site (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01623c.htm) they lived in the fourth century. Interesting. I never heard of them. Anyway, they seemed to be Christian monastics. I don't see any linkage to Judaism.

Allegra
Jan 23rd 2008, 04:36 PM
Do we have any evidence that this in fact happened?
I'll post some of Jesus' words from the New Testament. The N.T. is just as true & believable as the O.T., where we concur that God spoke to the Jews in a "glory cloud" at Mt. Sinai. Both Testaments had a multitude of witnesses.
Matthew 22:23-24:35
The Sadducees: What About the Resurrection?


23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23897a)] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?


34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23904c)] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23906d)] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”Jesus: How Can David Call His Descendant Lord?


41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”
They said to Him, “ The Son of David.”
43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:
44 ‘ The LORD said to my Lord,

“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’?[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23911e)]
45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.
Matthew 23

Woe to the Scribes and Pharisees

1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23916f)]that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23921g)] and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23927h)]
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23934j)] in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23938k)] 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.Jesus Laments over Jerusalem


37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”[l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23952l)]Matthew 24

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[m (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23958m)]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[n (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23959n)] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.The Great Tribulation


15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[o (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23967o)] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.The Coming of the Son of Man


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.The Parable of the Fig Tree


32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[p (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23985p)] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

[B]QUESTION: Matt. 28:19, 20 “..lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” (AGE) Does this imply that he was “with them” always, or only until AD 70? ANSWER: The Greek here is very interesting. Literally translated, it reads, “...and behold I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age.” There is an unfortunate translation here. It should say, “the whole time” (lit. “all the days”) rather than “always.” He would be with them the whole time they were announcing the coming of the kingdom, down to the very consummation of that age. He was simply telling them they would not be alone during this period when the great commission was being accomplished (from 30 to AD 70). He would be Spiritually present with them (through the work of the Holy Spirit) to see them through to the very end of that old Jewish age. In AD 66-70, Christ Himself returned to put down His final enemies and give His saints their kingdom inheritance. They had only a temporary and partial “pledge, earnest or seal” of that inheritance from 30 to AD 70. The great commission given to the twelve apostles was completed by the time Jesus returned at the end of that Jewish age. [I]-Edward E. Stevens
QUESTION: Did Jesus Christ return in AD 70 without fanfare?
ANSWER: I wouldn't exactly call the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 an event “without fanfare.” Josephus mentions some loud voices and trumpet sounds being heard, as well as angelic armies being visible in the sky over Judea at the time of the Jewish revolt (AD 66-70). Jews today still commemorate it in some fashion in almost every joyous occasion they celebrate (the shattered goblet at Jewish weddings, and a special fast day every year in August (Tisha b'Av) are two ways in which they still remember the destruction). Rabbi Davis (from White Plains NY), in his opening remarks of his (1978?) lecture on “Post-Biblical Judaism,” commented that he would begin the study of post-Biblical Judaism with “the end.” Then he said, he would begin with AD 70., because AD 70 was “the end of Biblical Judaism” and the beginning of rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism. Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, “shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God’s presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds. -Edward E. Stevens

Allegra
Jan 23rd 2008, 04:39 PM
Cont'd-
Fenris quote:

I'd say it was a lot more than that. Probably 90% or more didn't.I was basing that on the Book of Zechariah. Again, I must take if business. The exact verses I don't have time to locate. But it is about the Day of the Lord & that 2/3 would perish. So, since I do not know # accurately (the history of) I was basing it on that fact in Zechariah. Now Zechariah, one of Israel's last prophets has the Messiah's coming-the SEED of Zerubabbel. Not Esau's descendant (Herod the great)-who was now on the throne for the Jews when we open to the times of the N.T. era. In fact, Zechariah is perfect. He is showing "the woman in the basket" symbolism, which was flying off, bc that Israel was the Harlot. Only the Seed of the promise would be the remnant blessed! Oh yes, it was 42,000 that returned back from the exile. It's written in Ezra. And Zech. tells of the "Future joy of Zion & Many Nations" This is the Mt. Zion above, the New Jerusalem. The glory left the earthly, physical temple(Ezekiel) & came back only by way of the Eastern gate-Which represents the Son of God in heaven.

They wanted what God promised. Since Jesus did not fulfill what God promised they didn't follow him. I know you say he fulfilled it in a 'spiritual, metaphorical way' but as I have stated many times we don't believe anyone has the right to ignore the literal translation of the text.Well, there was great anticipation in the land, still, for the coming Messiah. Those who heeded the O.T. Scriptures welcomed Him as He entered Jerusalem. It was religious leaders (who bought that privilege) that caused many to reject Him.


So if I don't accept Jesus the I'm guilty of the Holocaust? :rolleyes:I don't see any connection. The holocaust came about from the evil in men's hearts.
Accepting Jesus is a requirement for eternal life. God sent His Son as a once-and-for-all sacrifice for sins. No one comes to the Father except through the Son. In Him we have the sin removed (Adam's sin) which separated us from God spiritually(& in other ways also) Without His Holy Spirit (which is the 3rd person of the divine Trinity) we do not have the spirit which is a deposit, & will one day upon death, will be given a spiritual body(by God) to reside in heaven with.



Yes, this is true. But Deuteronomy 30 describes what will happen after that. And that hasn't happened, yet.
As I've already said, since God told all the Jews in the world about the first covenant, at Sinai, He was obligated to tell all the Jews in the world about this new one. We don't have any evidence of such a thing occurring...I don't know how one can make such a "demand"on God. Who is any one to tell the "potter" what He shall do?
Deut.30 makes it clear that God promised to circumcise their hearts, & that the promises remain to the seed, the faithful remnant-of Jacob-not Esau!
Then we follow in time Joshua 21, God gave all the land promised. Then we see in Jeremiah, bc of their sins, Israel punished by Assyria, Judah going 70 yrs. to Babyllon. When they were gathered back. Ezra & Zerubbabel, Nehemiah, etc. built another temple & the Law was restored. However, only the remnant seed did no wrong. Also Daniel was given the word by the angel Gabriel that seventy-sevens were required for your people to make atonement for sin, & to anoint the Most Holy-the Messiah the Prince.
You can interpret it any chosen way, but most Christians believe that the prophecy & weeks of years work out crystal clear to the Messiah-Jesus.
Those who were wise understood the scriptures, & accepted Jesus, crying out-"Son of David!" in Jerusalem.

But the Jerusalem church was completely destroyed, along with all it's followers. They were the most direct link to Jesus and his teachings- not Paul, who never met him.Well, actually the temple wasn't their meeting place after Pentecost, a few yrs. Preaching Christianity was outlawed & persecuted.(subject to martyrdom) They met secretly. Then they expanded & establishedthe church at Antioch. Then Paul spread the Gospel the furthest. The others strengthened what was started, with Peter& others finally agreeing with Paul that the Gentiles did not have to follow the law.





Hey, I'm glad that your faith in God got you through the tough times.
Right. that doesn't make it true, though.As above, Moses parted the Red Sea, didn't he? Well, Jesus did miracles. The most powerful one is that He rose from the dead as He said He would too!

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:07 PM
OK, let's look at this piece by piece here:


I'll post some of Jesus' words from the New Testament. The N.T. is just as true & believable as the O.T., where we concur that God spoke to the Jews in a "glory cloud" at Mt. Sinai. Both Testaments had a multitude of witnesses. No, they are not the same. At Sinai, God spoke to every Jew in the world. In Jesus's time, most of the Jews didn't even live in Israel.


Matthew 22:23-24:35
The Sadducees: What About the Resurrection?Right, and religious Jews today believe in resurrection at the End of Days. No question, Sadducees were wrong on this point and many others.


The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?


34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23904c)] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23906d)] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”Right, and these come from Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19. Jews at the time would have been well aware of the passages and agreed with them.


Jesus: How Can David Call His Descendant Lord?


44 ‘ The LORD said to my Lord,

“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’?[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23911e)]OK, this is an interesting one. He's quoting Psalm 110. In Hebrew, however, it says something rather different. It says "God (YH-VH) says to my master (Adonee)". This is because the Levites would have sung this Psalm at Temple services. So what they were saying in effect was "God said to my master (king David)..."




Matthew 23

Woe to the Scribes and PhariseesThis is just anti-Jewish drivel. Were it directed against the Saducees it might be considered more accurate, but the Pharisees? The Pharisees were the common man; they were concerned with mercy and making the law easier, when possible; in other words, they were much like Jesus. His railing against them here is a real head-scratcher.



Jesus Laments over JerusalemAs do all Jews.



Matthew 24

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the TempleWe don't know if it was penned before or after 70AD. If after, this prophecy is worthless.



The Great Tribulation
...

.The Coming of the Son of ManNothing interesting to comment on here.



.The Parable of the Fig Tree


32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[p (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2022:23-24:35&version=50#fen-NKJV-23985p)] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.And yet many of his predictions did not take place in the following generation, necessitating a 'second coming'.

Teke
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:14 PM
If we were worthy we would be a holy nation and a kingdom of priests- to the rest of the world. We aren't right now (in an obvious way, anyhow) so obviously it isn't necessary.

I do not believe that you and your people are unworthy, only you have said that your people are not worthy.

Are you prophesying to me. :confused


Yes it is.
Priests come from the line of Aaron. Kings come from the line of David. No one can come from both.

So are you saying that someone from one tribe of Israel can't marry one from another tribe than their own.
You must have some criteria for the view you hold.


I must have missed it. Maybe you can show me where, since you claim it's here.

I'll have to see if you disregarded what Allegra said about Daniel.



According to this site (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01623c.htm) they lived in the fourth century. Interesting. I never heard of them. Anyway, they seemed to be Christian monastics. I don't see any linkage to Judaism.

OK, you want a "linkage" to Judaism in Christianity. Let's see, one of the more prominent would be an Apostolic father, such as Polycarp. His parents were Jews and he was taught by the Apostle John (also a Jew).

The Smyrnaeans under Polycarp (he was a bishop) observed the seventh day sabbath. And Polycarp is known also, by his dispute with the bishop of Rome over the Passover date.

"...the Sabbath or Saturday (for so the word sabbatum is constantly used in the writings of the fathers, when speaking of it as it relates to Christians) was held by them in great veneration, and especially in the Eastern parts honoured with all the public solemnities of religion." (Cave William, D.D. Primitive Christianity: or the Religion of the Ancient Christians in the First Ages of the Gospel. 1840 edition revised by H. Cary. Oxford, London, pp. 84-85).

Another Apostolic father, which I assume would also have come from the Jewish background, as the Apostle John was also his teacher, is Ignatius. Also known as Theophorus. According to tradition he is the child which Jesus held in his lap. And since Jesus only spoke to Jews, it would seem he also was a Jew.

It wasn't as big a deal then as it is today with religion. They were just conciliar about it. Still are in the eastern church. And I don't see that ever changing, which is why they resist any form of supremacy over one another. Such as "pope" or any one group above another in such matters. As that is not how counsel works.

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:22 PM
Cont'd-
Fenris quote:
I was basing that on the Book of Zechariah. Again, I must take if business. The exact verses I don't have time to locate. But it is about the Day of the Lord & that 2/3 would perish. An odd way of proving something. Zechariah says 2/3 will perish and you're assuming that he was tlaking about this event, so 2/3 of them must have perished...:hmm:



Well, there was great anticipation in the land, still, for the coming Messiah. Those who heeded the O.T. Scriptures welcomed Him as He entered Jerusalem. It was religious leaders (who bought that privilege) that caused many to reject Him.Umm, most Jews are still waiting. You're positing that Jews before Jesus read the bible as Christians do. It's an interesting concept, but I don't see the support for it. If it were true, Jews would have ceased to exist as they all converted to this new religion en masse. But we know that this didn't happen.



Accepting Jesus is a requirement for eternal life. Where can this be found in the OT?


I don't know how one can make such a "demand"on God. Who is any one to tell the "potter" what He shall do?I'm not telling Him what to do. I'm asking that He do what He said He would do. God has responsibilities, just as man does.



Well, actually the temple wasn't their meeting place after Pentecost, a few yrs. Not the temple, but Jerusalem was their base.




As above, Moses parted the Red Sea, didn't he? Well, Jesus did miracles. The most powerful one is that He rose from the dead as He said He would too!Is the performance of miracles the only reason we believe?

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:26 PM
I do not believe that you and your people are unworthy, only you have said that your people are not worthy.We obviously aren't worthy. If we were, the Temple would be rebuilt and all the rest of the prophecies would be fulfilled...


Teke, I'll answer the rest of your post but I must run to a meeting.:note:

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:01 PM
So are you saying that someone from one tribe of Israel can't marry one from another tribe than their own.
You must have some criteria for the view you hold.No. (Although that was true at one point) I'm saying that tribal affiliation goes according to the father's tribe, not the mother's tribe.

My wife's father is a Cohen-priest. I am not. Therefore my children are not, either.



I'll have to see if you disregarded what Allegra said about Daniel.Yes, and please show where Daniel says there messiah will come while the second temple is still standing...




OK, you want a "linkage" to Judaism in Christianity. Let's see, one of the more prominent would be an Apostolic father, such as Polycarp. His parents were Jews and he was taught by the Apostle John (also a Jew).Right. But all the early Christians were Jews. All the Apostles were Jews. That doesn't mean that their beliefs were widely held by other Jews. The evidence seems to be otherwise.

Allegra
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:10 PM
An odd way of proving something. Zechariah says 2/3 will perish and you're assuming that he was tlaking about this event, so 2/3 of them must have perished...:hmm:
Not at all. Many Christians that I know of are in agreement with the prophecies of Zechariah pointing to "the end times"


Umm, most Jews are still waiting. You're positing that Jews before Jesus read the bible as Christians do. It's an interesting concept, but I don't see the support for it. If it were true, Jews would have ceased to exist as they all converted to this new religion en masse. But we know that this didn't happen.I'm sorry for that. I think it's like reading the entire Bible & not facing the fact that the text was written for us but not to us. That was the uniqueness that was especially for them. We only follow suit.Those Jewish Christians in Christ's day heeded His warning about the temple being destroyed. Those who weren't physically present read by AD 65+ at least, the gospels, & heeded the same. The gospels were written before AD65.



Where can this be found in the OT?There are many references to the Messiah, but Daniel's Book is crystal on the time frame.
I'm not telling Him what to do. I'm asking that He do what He said He would do. God has responsibilities, just as man does.



Is the performance of miracles the only reason we believe?It is called Faith. And I would believe for the same reasons the Apostles & Disciples believed & suffered a martyrs death believing in.

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:23 PM
Not at all. Many Christians that I know of are in agreement with the prophecies of Zechariah pointing to "the end times"But we don;t even agree on whether that's happened yet...
IN any case it's still an odd proof.


I'm sorry for that. I think it's like reading the entire Bible & not facing the fact that the text was written for us but not to us.Well, in a sense that's true. It was written to the people who received it. But in another sense, it's message is timeless. But I'm still going to say that first-century Jews read the bible the same way religious Jews today read it.


The gospels were written before AD65.Umm if you say so. I have reasons to believe otherwise. Not that it changes anything one way or the other.



There are many references to the Messiah, but Daniel's Book is crystal on the time frame.If it's so obvious, why aren't we all Christians?



It is called Faith. And I would believe for the same reasons the Apostles & Disciples believed & suffered a martyrs death believing in.So have countless Jews through the centuries. Was their faith worth any less?

Teke
Jan 23rd 2008, 07:11 PM
No. (Although that was true at one point) I'm saying that tribal affiliation goes according to the father's tribe, not the mother's tribe.

My wife's father is a Cohen-priest. I am not. Therefore my children are not, either.

Is that a rule of your religion, because the fifth commandment says to honor both.
Show me from the law where what your proposing is true.


Yes, and please show where Daniel says there messiah will come while the second temple is still standing...

Daniel 9:25-26



Right. But all the early Christians were Jews. All the Apostles were Jews. That doesn't mean that their beliefs were widely held by other Jews. The evidence seems to be otherwise.

Your right it doesn't, but it does show they did have other views.

Fenris
Jan 23rd 2008, 07:27 PM
Is that a rule of your religion, because the fifth commandment says to honor both.What does that have to do with tracing lineage?


Show me from the law where what your proposing is true.Numbers 1: 18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by their fathers' houses ...



Daniel 9:25-26The annointed king in 25 is Cyrus. The annointed king in 26 is Aggrippa. Be back to this in a bit...




Your right it doesn't, but it does show they did have other views.Jews always have. That doesn't make all their views correct.

Allegra
Jan 24th 2008, 02:11 AM
But we don;t even agree on whether that's happened yet...
IN any case it's still an odd proof.
No it's not odd. It is well known to the scholars. Trouble I'm having here is that I have& read SO many books that were for my personal studies, to get at the truth of "the end times," but it takes me forever to locate certain books that parallel passages used from scripture & their historic realities.
First of all, Zechariah uses a lot of symbolism. One cannot understand the Bible if they look for super-literal inerpretations. Look at Psalm 18, you'll see what I mean. One must interpret the prophetic language within the proper literal genre. This is where may futuristic "end timers" go wrong & create fiction & not what the proper meanings are prophetically.

For instance, in Zechariah 5:1-4, the prophet saw a scroll flying through the heavens, & traversing the entire earth.(land) The dimensions of the scroll are those of the Most Holy Place of the temple (1Kings 6:3) The scroll contains the covenant curses on the land.
Ezekiel tells of receiving a scroll containing a list of the judgments against Israel (Ezek.2:3-10)
So extensive is God's judgment on both sides. We can rightfully expect that the scroll in Revelation, which bears remarkable similarities to the previous scrolls in Scripture, containing impending irreversible curses upon the nation of Israel. As the scroll is unsealed, & the nature of the judgments is revealed, we get an idea of the events orchestrated by God leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem & the Temple in 70AD.
Oh, this is gonna be long, & it's only 1/3 of what I have to cite in Zechariah!
Another OT prophecy is cited in Rev.1:7. Zech.12:10. The context is vindication of the Suffering Servant.."Then they will look on Him the one they pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn." When would this be? When one traces "in that day" references throughout Zech.12-14, there can be no doubt. It would be when, "It shall come to pass in all the land, says the Lord, that two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, but one-third shall be left in it."(Zech.13:8) And as ch. 14 shows, "The Day of the Lord is coming, for I will gather all nations to battle against Jerusalem, the city shall be taken, the houses rifled and the women ravished."(Zech 14:1-2) The time of mourning would be the time of judgment on Jerusalem.
1) They would look on him whom they pierced.
2)God would pour out the spirit of grace on the house of Israel.(12:10) He would open a fountain for the cleansing of sin & uncleanness.(13:1)
3) Israel would mourn. There seems to be 2 "mournings" in the text. There's a mourning due to looking on the pierced One, & there seems to be a mourning throughout the land of Israel (v.11)
4) At the time of great mourning, Jehovah causes 2/3rds of the people to perish from the land, while a remnant is saved (13:8)
5) It would be a time of the destruction of Jerusalem (14:1)
6) It would also be a time of deliverance of Jerusalem.
Notice now the N.T.'s application of Zechariah.
John 19:37 quotes Zech 12 & applies it to Jesus' crucifixion. There can be no doubt about this.
In Acts 2, those who had looked on the pierced Lord are convicted of their sin, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this same Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ." What was their response? "When they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren what shall we do?" (Acts2:37)
It is important to realize that according to the Old Law, there was no appeal for these people. The Law of Blood Atonement (Num35) demanded blood for blood, with no possibility of escape. So what could they do? In their mourning for what they had done, they could only appeal for mercy, for grace & for cleansing from the One whom they had killed. That is precisely what they did, & God graciously extended forgiveness, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sin" (Acts 2:38)
Zech. not only told of a mourning of repentance, fulfilled at Pentecost, he also foretold a mourning throughout the entire land of Israel. (This is when the 2/3rd would perish...)
But what about the deliverance of Jerusalem? For now I will say there were 2 Jerusalems. In the OT & New there is the doctrine of the 2 Jerusalems. The old earthly Jerusalem would be destroyed, but the new Jerusalem, of which the old was a mere shadow, would triumph.


Well, in a sense that's true. It was written to the people who received it. But in another sense, it's message is timeless. But I'm still going to say that first-century Jews read the bible the same way religious Jews today read it.
Umm if you say so. I have reasons to believe otherwise. Not that it changes anything one way or the other.I believe the messages are timeless. But the events were not.


If it's so obvious, why aren't we all Christians?I don't know. People had & have religious agendas.


So have countless Jews through the centuries. Was their faith worth any less?Well, I guess it depends on who one's faith is in. Like I said before, through Jesus one has eternal life. God didn't remain stagnant or in secret for all those years after He first spoke to man. He had a Plan for the salvation of mankind.

Allegra
Jan 24th 2008, 02:25 AM
The annointed king in 25 is Cyrus. The annointed king in 26 is Aggrippa. Be back to this in a bit...
Oh come one now, Cyrus the Persian King who allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem after the exile? And why is the Messiah different in vs. 26?
Agrippa?!!!!
Now, you have to be kidding. Herod Agrippa II- The one who had incestuous relations with Bernice, his sister & wife? Gross.
Oh! the one who was a descendant of Esau?!! Are you sure? That can't be right! A descendant of Esau to be the Messiah. I'm in shock! Everyone knows that God hated Esau, & would exterminate his line from the face of the earth.

:help:

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 01:25 PM
No it's not odd. It is well known to the scholars.
Christian scholars, you mean.




First of all, Zechariah uses a lot of symbolism. One cannot understand the Bible if they look for super-literal inerpretations.Well, much of the prophets is written in poetic terms. Having said that, when God says that He will do something, I expect Him to do it. I mean, if a prophecy is fulfilled in a metaphoric way, so that there is debate about whether it has actually been fulfilled or not, has it really been done?



Another OT prophecy is cited in Rev.1:7. Zech.12:10.
The context is vindication of the Suffering Servant..
The context is the nations gathered against Israel, as described in verse 1. You can't separate verse 10 from the rest of the chapter. Like many other biblical prophecies, this one has yet to occur.



I don't know. People had & have religious agendas.Do I have an agenda? Or am I merely reading the bible in the manner of my forefathers?


Well, I guess it depends on who one's faith is in. Like I said before, through Jesus one has eternal life. God didn't remain stagnant or in secret for all those years after He first spoke to man. He had a Plan for the salvation of mankind.This presumes that 'salvation' is necessary in the manner that you believe it is.

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 01:37 PM
Oh come one now, Cyrus the Persian King who allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem after the exile? Why not? Cyrus is called 'anointed' in Isaiah 45. Why can he not be called that here too?


And why is the Messiah different in vs. 26?Why not? Weren't you just arguing for poetry and non-literalism?


Agrippa?!!!!
Now, you have to be kidding. Herod Agrippa II- The one who had incestuous relations with Bernice, his sister & wife? Gross.
Oh! the one who was a descendant of Esau?!! Are you sure? That can't be right! He was the last king of Israel.


A descendant of Esau to be the Messiah.
Not 'the Messiah'. The Hebrew merely says 'anointed one', as all kings were.

Teke
Jan 24th 2008, 03:19 PM
What does that have to do with tracing lineage?

Numbers 1: 18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by their fathers' houses ...

A subject for another thread.



The annointed king in 25 is Cyrus. The annointed king in 26 is Aggrippa. Be back to this in a bit...

I think not. According with context, that would put Cyrus at the end of the seventy weeks.
Also you haven't shown how you could come to such a conclusion of the matter.

I will refer to the context and subject of verse 25 to demonstrate this couldn't have been Cyrus. You already know time wise that doesn't work out.

The subject of the first part of verse 25 is the "commandment to restore" and "Jerusalem" the city, not the temple. The "commandment" refers to the Divine word rather than to a royal decree. This is the twentieth year of Artaxerxes. The Divine word came in Nehemiah 2:1, when Daniel prayed to God and the king allowed him to rebuild the city. The city (as in Nehemiah), not the temple (as in Ezra), is the subject of Daniels prayer, and therefore the answer to it.

Here is a little more history to put this in perspective, time wise.

Artaxerxes = the great king. Anappellative (like Pharoah, Czar, etc) used of several kings of Persia. Synonymous with Artachshast (Arta=great, and Kshatza=king, preserved in modern "Shah")

This Artaxerxes was the great king Astyges (of Herodotus), and Arsames (of Darius Hystaspis' Inscription) , the husband of Esther, and father of Cyrus. He was also the Ahasuerus of Est. 1:1, which means "the venerable king"'; and he was also the "Darius the Mede" of Ezra 6:14 and Daniel 5:31.

History in a time line is like mathematics, it can't lie.




Jews always have. That doesn't make all their views correct.

Same with Christianity. Which is why persons like myself will present the evidence to be decided upon within it's historical context.

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 03:30 PM
A subject for another thread. Very slick. I post the verse you ask for and you refer it to another thread. Whatever.:rolleyes:




I think not. According with context, that would put Cyrus at the end of the seventy weeks. No, it puts Cyrus after the first seven.
25. And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks


Also you haven't shown how you could come to such a conclusion of the matter.
Well, neither have you.



I will refer to the context and subject of verse 25 to demonstrate this couldn't have been Cyrus. You already know time wise that doesn't work out. I know no such thing. You're tossing about statements as though they are obvious facts, when they clearly are not.


The subject of the first part of verse 25 is the "decree" and "Jerusalem" the city, not the temple. The "commandment" refers to the Divine word rather than to a royal decree.And you know this how exactly?


This is the twentieth year of Artaxerxes.Or maybe it's 538 BC- when King Cyrus (Ezra in 1:1-4 and Ezra 5:13-17) gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Or maybe it's 517 BC- when Darius gave another decree to rebuild the temple (recorded in Ezra 6:6-12).

Even accepting your starting date, 483 years from the year 445 BC would put us at 37, not 32 or 33.



History in a time line is like mathematics, it can't lie.This, from the person who refuted one of my posts with a line about "Lies, damned lies, and statistics". :lol:




Same with Christianity. Which is why persons like myself will present the evidence to be decided upon within it's historical context.
With such hard proofs, it's amazing everyone isn't Christian.

Teke
Jan 24th 2008, 03:36 PM
The context is the nations gathered against Israel, as described in verse 1. You can't separate verse 10 from the rest of the chapter. Like many other biblical prophecies, this one has yet to occur.


I don't see that in verse 1.

The context is really what the result of such a siege would be. See verse 3, it says Jerusalem will be burdensome for all people who burden themselves with it, "shall be cut in pieces".

Now let's look back in history and see if that is true. Look at Assyria, Persia, Greece, Egypt of old, and in later days Spain, Portugal and Russia. All have been so lacerated on account of their treatment of the Jews.

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 03:55 PM
I don't see that in verse 1.

The context is really what the result of such a siege would be. See verse 3, it says Jerusalem will be burdensome for all people who burden themselves with it, "shall be cut in pieces".


3...and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it.
8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem...
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem...

These things happened in the context of verse 12? I don't see how.


Now let's look back in history and see if that is true. Look at Assyria, Persia, Greece, Egypt of old, and in later days Spain, Portugal and Russia. All have been so lacerated on account of their treatment of the Jews.Yes, this is true. It still doesn't fit the rest of the chapter though.

Teke
Jan 24th 2008, 04:11 PM
Very slick. I post the verse you ask for and you refer it to another thread. Whatever.:rolleyes:


With Allegra's permission we could address it here.
But you didn't show it in the laws, you pointed out an action. You could elaborate on how an action becomes a law I suppose.



No, it puts Cyrus after the first seven.
25. And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks

Well, neither have you.


I know no such thing. You're tossing about statements as though they are obvious facts, when they clearly are not.

And you know this how exactly?

Or maybe it's 538 BC- when King Cyrus (Ezra in 1:1-4 and Ezra 5:13-17) gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Or maybe it's 517 BC- when Darius gave another decree to rebuild the temple (recorded in Ezra 6:6-12).

Even accepting your starting date, 483 years from the year 445 BC would put us at 37, not 32 or 33.

It's historical facts. The Persian kings lineage is written on "the rock of Behistun" (or "Bahistun") which rises 1,700 ft. out of the Plain, the high road from Babylonia to the East. Darius Hystaspis gives the genealogy on the rock.
The rocks' name derives from the village at it's foot, Bisitun or Bisutun. It is on the high road from Baghdad to Teheran, about sixty five miles from Hamadau (on the site of the ancient Ecbatana).
There may be a copy online

The starting date would be 454 BC and end at the dedication of the temple 405 BC (Ezra 6:16). IOW seven weeks or seven sevens.

Note, Artaxerxes is Neb's brother-in-law, acting on his behalf while he is incapacitated.


This, from the person who refuted one of my posts with a line about "Lies, damned lies, and statistics". :lol:

I'm not giving you statistics. It's been my observation that you don't accept them either.:D


With such hard proofs, it's amazing everyone isn't Christian.

Yes it is amazing.:saint:

Teke
Jan 24th 2008, 04:25 PM
3...and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it.
8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem...
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem...

These things happened in the context of verse 12? I don't see how.

In the context of the history the chapter is written in it works out.


Yes, this is true. It still doesn't fit the rest of the chapter though.

Why?

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 04:31 PM
With Allegra's permission we could address it here.
But you didn't show it in the laws, you pointed out an action. You could elaborate on how an action becomes a law I suppose.I'm showing you that this was how it was done. You can't show your lineage concept because it can't be found anywhere in the bible. Even genealogies are all father to son.




It's historical facts. The Persian kings lineage is written on "the rock of Behistun" (or "Bahistun") which rises 1,700 ft. out of the Plain, the high road from Babylonia to the East. Darius Hystaspis gives the genealogy on the rock.
The rocks' name derives from the village at it's foot, Bisitun or Bisutun. It is on the high road from Baghdad to Teheran, about sixty five miles from Hamadau (on the site of the ancient Ecbatana).
There may be a copy onlineThis is all very interesting but it has nothing to do with what I posted.


The starting date would be 454 BC and end at the dedication of the temple 405 BC (Ezra 6:16). IOW seven weeks or seven sevens.
It still gives you a bad ending date.

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 04:32 PM
In the context of the history the chapter is written in it works out.Please explain how.



Why?

It isn't for me to disprove. It's for you to prove. I posted several verses from the chapter that do not describe the events in the NT. They appear to describe some future war against Jerusalem.

Allegra
Jan 24th 2008, 04:48 PM
Well, much of the prophets is written in poetic terms. Having said that, when God says that He will do something, I expect Him to do it. I mean, if a prophecy is fulfilled in a metaphoric way, so that there is debate about whether it has actually been fulfilled or not, has it really been done?
The context is the nations gathered against Israel, as described in verse 1. You can't separate verse 10 from the rest of the chapter. Like many other biblical prophecies, this one has yet to occur.

It seems that you don't know how to interpret Zechariah either.
Zechariah 13-14:21 (pls read every word of these chapters) emphasis mine.
Zechariah 13

1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Zechariah 14

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Revelation 21:1-5
All Things Made New

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:1-5;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31050a)] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
[B]Revelation 21:22-22:21
The Glory of the New Jerusalem


22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31071a)] for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31072c)] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31072d)] 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31074e)] 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31075f)] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.[B]Revelation 22

The River of Life

1 And he showed me a pure[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31076g)] river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall beThe Time Is Near


6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31081h)] prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See [I]that you do not do that. For[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31084j)] I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31086k)] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”Jesus Testifies to the Churches


12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, thethe End, the First and the Last.”[l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31088l)]
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[m (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31089m)] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[n (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31090n)] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.A Warning


18 For[o (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31093o)] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[p (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31093p)] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31094q)] his part from the Book[r (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31094r)] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.I Am Coming Quickly


20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.[s (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2021:22-22:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31096s)] Amen. on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Beginning and

Now compare with Ezekiel 47.
The New Jerusalem both spiritually on the earth & the Glorious heavenly New Jerusalem, the never-ending city promised in the Old & New Testaments at the coming of the Lord in the time of the end, when the power of the holy people has finally been broken.( Dan.12) Mt. Zion(which the New Jerusalem comes down on symbolically) It represents the new covenant blessings for the rest of us on earth.
Jesus came in the clouds with his mighty angels after the end of Judaism, the consummation of the kingdom of Christ & the fulfillment of the resurrection to the OT & NT saints, .as per Enoch & imminent expectations in the entire NT time.

There is no need to remain ignorant about the fulfillment of these eschatological events.
Study history, but most of all, read only the inspired words of the Bible. All was imminent. God fulfills & fulfilled His promises. He didn't say He was coming soon only to have us "watching" 2,000 years+ later. Nonsense. :bible:

Teke
Jan 24th 2008, 04:54 PM
I'm showing you that this was how it was done. You can't show your lineage concept because it can't be found anywhere in the bible.

Matriarchs genealogies are given as well.


Even genealogies are all father to son.
Primarily yes, but without the mothers, she could just be a concubine if otherwise wasn't known. And there is a reason for such.



This is all very interesting but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

It still gives you a bad ending date.


Please explain how.


It isn't for me to disprove. It's for you to prove. I posted several verses from the chapter that do not describe the events in the NT. They appear to describe some future war against Jerusalem.

How would I know what you want explained when you aren't indicating what you don't understand. Just making comments such as above quoted.

Personally I'm not proving anything, archeology and history are your proof. You can choose to ignore such proof, in which case there isn't anything to speak of. I'm not going to tell you to believe what I believe. I can only present the facts and let you make your own decision from there.

Bear in mind tho, that a proposition without any evidence is just that, a proposition. What I've presented is not a proposition without evidence.:cool:

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 05:01 PM
It seems that you don't know how to interpret Zechariah either.Wow. Just, like, wow.

I don't find it terribly convincing to take a chapter from the OT and compare it to some chapter in the NT and say,"Look! It's been fulfilled!!"

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 05:04 PM
Matriarchs genealogies are given as well.Where? Can you show one?



Personally I'm not proving anything, archeology and history are your proof. You can choose to ignore such proof, in which case there isn't anything to speak of. I'm not going to tell you to believe what I believe. I can only present the facts and let you make your own decision from there.Proof of what?



Bear in mind tho, that a proposition without any evidence is just that, a proposition. What I've presented is not a proposition without evidence.:cool:I don't understand how your evidence supports your conclusion. And again, there's that problem of your weeks ending in 37 AD.

Allegra
Jan 24th 2008, 05:46 PM
Why not? Cyrus is called 'anointed' in Isaiah 45. Why can he not be called that here too?

Why not? Weren't you just arguing for poetry and non-literalism?

He was the last king of Israel.

Not 'the Messiah'. The Hebrew merely says 'anointed one', as all kings were.

I posted the link which has the Hebrew. You have to scroll down to vs.9:25+ bc I could only copy the link.
The 2nd version is from the Septuagint.
The Hebrew, & also our KJV note that the seven sevens & sixty-two sevens are in the same sentence in regards to the time to anoint the Most Holy One.
KJV
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan9.pdf

Septuagint (Hebrew translated to Greek)
9:22 He instructed me and talked with me and said, “Daniel, I have now come forth to give you wisdom and understanding. 9:23 At the beginning of your petitions, the commandment went forth and I have come to tell you; for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter and understand the vision. 9:24 Seventy weeks of years are decreed on your people and on your holy city, to finish disobedience and to make an end of sins and to make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness and to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. 9:25 Know therefore and discern that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem, to the arrival of the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and also sixty-two weeks; and so it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times. 9:26 After the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and even to the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 9:27 He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, what is determined shall be poured out on the desolate.”

Here's the point:
Nehemiah was commissioned by Artaxerxes to go to Jerusalem. In Neh.2:5, Nehemiah asks permission to go and rebuild the city, & for letters to the governors of the provinces asking them to furnish him with proper timber to make the repairs. Thus the phrase of Neh."That I may rebuild it" fits the description issued by Gabriel. But 2:16 indicates that the work had already begun, but for some reason had halted; it further indicates that Neh. was chosen by God as a leader of the workmen and, the one chosen by God to finish the work.
There is no room for assumption in the matter. If we choose the commission by Artaxerxes to Nehemiah, it best fits the decree described by Gabriel.
Recognizing this is a Jewish date & their calendar must be considered.
I agree with the scholars in my studies that arrive at a date of (about)454 BC for the issue of the decree.
The work on the house of God had halted, perhaps by some people who tried to stop Neh., & Neh. went down in the face of danger & repaired the gates & walls. This gave the people faith to finish the work on the temple.
If true, then seven wks. or 49 yrs. was allotted to finish the work on the temple, at which time the expiration date would have been 405BC. Then would have begun the sixty-two wks or 434 yrs., & the period would have expired in AD 30, about the time Christ was baptized.
The scripture says, "And after this the Messiah would be cut off and have nothing." So sometime after AD 30 date, the Messiah would be cut off.
At the expiration of the 434 yrs, it would be the last & most important week, the one where the Messiah would stop the sacrifice in the middle of the week, or 3 1/2yrs. Christ would be offered on the cross as the last legal sacrifice under the Law of Mose. (Hebrews 9:26)

OK, I can finish the interpretation of Daniel 9,from a Preterist view a bit later.
Business calls. Anyone can consider what I've written in the meantime if they like, & I will pick up again later.

Teke
Jan 24th 2008, 06:27 PM
Where? Can you show one?

Your being ridiculous about this. Did Abraham say "go get my son a wife" or did he give specific instructions on who she was to be from (IOW genealogy). If anyone challenged which genealogy she was from, how did she prove it if she didn't have one.


Proof of what?

Your being evasive. The Messiah, wasn't Cyrus in Daniel. Some posts back I showed you he would have had to be a priest/king also.


I don't understand how your evidence supports your conclusion. And again, there's that problem of your weeks ending in 37 AD.

There is a two or three year difference in AD dating. If you don't believe me go study it.

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 06:34 PM
So sometime after AD 30 date, the Messiah would be cut off.

God wrote the book. You'd think He could be more specific than that...:lol:

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 06:37 PM
Your being ridiculous about this. Did Abraham say "go get my son a wife" or did he give specific instructions on who she was to be from (IOW genealogy). If anyone challenged which genealogy she was from, how did she prove it if she didn't have one. So the fact remains: no where in the bible do we show genealogy from the mother's side.



Your being evasive. The Messiah, wasn't Cyrus in Daniel. Some posts back I showed you he would have had to be a priest/king also.Which is patently impossible. No one was a priest and a king. That's how we got started on the genealogy discussion, above.



There is a two or three year difference in AD dating. If you don't believe me go study it.That doesn't fix the problem. You're still off by a couple of years.

threebigrocks
Jan 24th 2008, 06:58 PM
Two things.

Let's stick to the topic at hand. Watch the personal comments. Okee dokey? ;)

Second, I would like to know Allegra if you have come to this conclusion because of study and/or because the Spirit has guided you into this understanding. What I'm asking is does this sit as well with your soul as it does in your mind?

I am going to be honest. My days are very full right now cutting back on the time I have to spend here. And although I understand the scriptures I'm not quite to the point of debating these specific issues well in relation to the end times. I have been following, but not

I do not agree with the the preterist view. I don't agree with the pre anything view. I believe that the second coming of Christ is yet to come, that the only sort of "rapture" or drawing up of believers to Him will occur when he descends in the clouds. We will continue to go through trials on this earth until that time, those unlike anything the world has seen. His return will come upon us like the flood in Noah's day, for those who don't know how to interpret the signs. People will keep going to work, making dinner, getting married, having babies. We are close to entering the day of the Lord - the seventh day, the last of the 7's as told of in Daniel. It is the Sabbath. The seventh day, since the beginning, has always belonged to the Lord.

I just don't see how any pretierest view especially can show how if their view is true that we are in the day of the Lord. If so, I am not seeing the promises that we are to hope for fufilled. Resurrected bodies, being in the very presence of God, all enemies under His feet, and the list goes on. I am not understanding. I try to, really, and I just don't get it.

Teke
Jan 24th 2008, 08:34 PM
No one was a priest and a king.


Really......

Gen 14:18 ¶ And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God.

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 08:40 PM
Really......

Gen 14:18 ¶ And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God.
Was he Jewish?

Jewish priests could only be descended from Aaron. On the male side, as I explained earlier.

Teke
Jan 24th 2008, 08:54 PM
Was he Jewish?

Jewish priests could only be descended from Aaron. On the male side, as I explained earlier.

What difference does that make, this is in relation to Abraham, not Aaron.
Christians descend from the faith of Abraham not Aaron's priesthood. (focusing on father genealogy for you).

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 09:04 PM
What difference does that make, this is in relation to Abraham, not Aaron.It makes a huge difference. If you're going to discard Jewish rules why did God bother to make them in the first place?



Christians descend from the faith of Abraham not Aaron's priesthood. (focusing on father genealogy for you).
Abraham's faith is not the topic of discussion here. The Jewish rules of priesthood are. Different peoples had different toles to play in Jewish life. The descendants of Aaron served as functionaries in the Temple. The descendants of king David were Israel's kings. This is what God stated He wanted in the bible.

Ta-An
Jan 24th 2008, 09:11 PM
Shalom Fenris...... you do know that the second coming is predicted in Malachi ..remember ;)

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 09:15 PM
Shalom Fenris...... you do know that the second coming is predicted in Malachi ..remember ;)
How nice to see you my dear! :)

No, please remind me of the second coming refrence in Malachi.

Allegra
Jan 24th 2008, 09:34 PM
[quote] Second, I would like to know Allegra if you have come to this conclusion because of study and/or because the Spirit has guided you into this understanding. What I'm asking is does this sit as well with your soul as it does in your mind?Tbr, Mostly bc the Spirit has guided me. Preterism sits so well with my soul & mind, I know that when I must rap this end-time study up & go back to work again soon, I will not care too much about it bc I have it settled.



I do not agree with the the preterist view. I don't agree with the pre anything view. I believe that the second coming of Christ is yet to come, that the only sort of "rapture" or drawing up of believers to Him will occur when he descends in the clouds. We will continue to go through trials on this earth until that time, those unlike anything the world has seen. His return will come upon us like the flood in Noah's day, for those who don't know how to interpret the signs. People will keep going to work, making dinner, getting married, having babies. We are close to entering the day of the Lord - the seventh day, the last of the 7's as told of in Daniel. It is the Sabbath. The seventh day, since the beginning, has always belonged to the Lord.See this is what I mean. Not that you disagree with the preterist view, but how one holds on to what is the lack of the so called "church fathers" recognizing (either bc of miscommunication, confusion, or ecclesiastical agendas)
Let me ask you, what do you envision the "Second Coming of Christ" to look like literally? For the brief time,even when I was Pre-mil-then-Amil last year, I believed at least what it said in Matthew 24:27 For as lightning goes from east and is visible in the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man.
Now, Jesus was talking on Mt.of Olives about the destruction of the temple, the sign of His coming, & the end of the age.
What part futurists don't understand about the Olivet discourse,imo, is bc of preconceived notions. Those opinions , imo, stem from some teaching by church leaders & or others looking to share in the futuristic view. But, the inspired text does not say that the Bible was written to us, but FOR us only. And the book of Revelation describes all the Mt. of Olives discourse by Jesus. Starting, but no limited to the earthquakes, famine, sword, the beast=the first rider, & the discourse about the apostles being handed over & tried. I can go through Rev. chapter by chapter, & give the literal interpreations that line up with history, of all the predictions Jesus made about the time & events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem (the harlot) & the temple in Rev11 all leading to the end- the end of the age.
Just like in Dan12-the end & time of resurrection, when the power of the holy people(Jews) was finally broken.
"For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written."(Luke 21:22)
Jesus said those words. I don't understand why I'm a minority for getting it!
Why isn't that view more popular? It seems that no one wants to study history, for one thing. And they hold on to a doomsday, end of the world- my kids & grandkids-don't have to have a life on earth- I just want Jesus to return so we can all go to heaven attitude. You have no idea how selfish & negative, & what a cop out from actually contributing something to better this world that sounds.
The imminence of Jesus' words & the apostles words concerning "the end of the age" is totally ignored by futurists. The embarrassment I have for God not fulfilling the eschatological events, only the soteriological (salvation elements) the so called church father apologetics had to explain to the Jewish scoffers after AD70, well He certainly knows my feelings.
I had never heard the term "Second Coming" before last yr. I had read the Bible a few times in the past 10 yrs., an attended a non-denom. church where the gifted church leaders never spoke of "end-times." I haven't even been able to replace that kind of teaching in a church, since I moved!
When I had read the Bible then, I discerned that EVERYTHING was a past event, & was to hold to the teachings, not only in the NT, but the kind of Faith God gave those righteous in the OT was & is a way of life. I can repeat Psalms & believe they pertain to my situation, as can anyone.
I want to know why how those futurist doctrines take wisdom? It truthfully insults my intelligence to hear someone say "when Christ returns!" knowing what I know, that He returned just as He promised after the Great tribulation on the apostate Jews (Jews who say they are Jews but they're not) Rev3.
It was "the end of the age" not the end of time. It was the end of the Old covenant & theocratic Israel.
What changed me from Amil even to preterism was my study on 2Peter3.
I saw that God would NEVER destroy heaven- so destroying heaven & earth for a new one needed to be clarified. I studied prophetic symbolism & found that Peter was referring to " a universal government in heaven-which was the old Judaism system, & the same on the land of Israel (earth)
I have described some of the symbols in Rev. by what is prophetically meant by the symbolism. These, in their literary genre makes perfect sense than talking about a literal woman riding a literal beast.
There is no doubt in my mind that the woman was the harlot Jerusalem in the 1st century & the beast was Rome & or Nero or Vespasian/Titus which came from the 4th beast of Daniel.
You cannot deny full preterism. It, in it's moderate form is, imho, the wisest, most intelligent conclusion of scripture ever.
All this other future stuff is fiction to me & those people aren't reading scripture properly, & they are desperately looking or watching for something in the sky, when the Bible wasn't speaking about us seeing the return of Christ.
Then I hear another say that when that happens, then that's when everyone who has died body's will be raised! Oh boy, the yr. 3,000 & those in Christ like St.Paul would still be waiting. To me the whole concept is selfish. Futurists can't seem to give credit where credit is due, & they want that experience,they have been doing it ever since the "fathers" kept postponing the imminence into a future event. Centuries after centuries, first a slight delay, then a longer delay, then forgetaboutit, that's all today's church knows now.


I just don't see how any pretierest view especially can show how if their view is true that we are in the day of the Lord. If so, I am not seeing the promises that we are to hope for fufilled. Resurrected bodies, being in the very presence of God, all enemies under His feet, and the list goes on. I am not understanding. I try to, really, and I just don't get it.Well, I don't agree with the term you use. We are not "in the Day of the Lord!" That Day was a day of judgment, & also a Day of Resurrection fulfillment for the righteous of all times up till AD70.
And I do not understand WHAT you are hoping for. You have Christ. You have the Holy Spirit.
Christ crushed Satan under the 1st century Christians fett, as Paul said He would "shortly." Satan no longer has the power over men in terms of spiritual death. Anyone accepting Christ receives eternal life. That happens after a physical death once. For man is to die once, then the judgment (Hebrews)
That's what happens with all post-Parousia Christians & unbelievers.
It's all individual since then bc the paradigm was set in the group resurrection that took place at Christ's 2nd Coming.
We receive a spiritual body(as God gives us) right after death, as St. Paul says, I believe in 1Corinthians. That's true for believers.(And that was who he was addressing anyway)
The perfect state is after we die.
So, what does your position have to do with hope that you don't already have in Christ?
Blessings,
ALLEGRA

Allegra
Jan 24th 2008, 09:39 PM
PPS.) Malachi is prophesying "the great and terrible Day of the Lord."
That already occurred in Jerusalem (AD70)

Sorry Fenris, but I do not promote false hope when history & the Bible says otherwise.

Fenris
Jan 24th 2008, 09:41 PM
PPS.) Malachi is prophesying "the great and terrible Day of the Lord."
That already occurred in Jerusalem (AD70)
Well, you're free to believe what you want. It's a free country. I don't see you winning many converts to your side here though.


Sorry Fenris, but I do not promote false hope when history & the Bible says otherwise.My bible tells me otherwise.

Allegra
Jan 25th 2008, 12:15 AM
Well, you're free to believe what you want. It's a free country. I don't see you winning many converts to your side here though.
There are a few that are preterists already that roam around this website.
As far as the doctrine is concerned within Christianity, it has not bearing on our salvation anymore than the difference between a Lutheran or a Catholic.

When I came to the ETC board & website last July, I was looking for answers about the so called Millennium kingdom. I had seen J. Hagee (who, as it turned out is called a Christian Zionist) I had seen him advertise his book "Jerusalem Countdown" on his TV program. I bought it & read it. But this was all news to me. Some Big Bad Antichrist supposed to make a peace treaty with Israel. Literal beasts & literal stars falling about the earth. Some Christians being martyred by the violence- but those weren't from our day,but it was from the tribulation past. Totally inconsistent. Only 144,000 Jews not touched when Jesus would come & fight God's enemies literally with a sword coming out of his mouth. No one knowing or denying who mystery Babylon was, etc.
OK, I was jazzed. Why? bc in all this, Hagee says that all Christians in the world would be raptured before any of the suffering! Nice. He describes all this happening, to the Jews again & all unbelievers in the world. But how easy to say, right, when he (or we) won't be affected!
OK, but when I saw what he suggested in that book about Revelation 20 & the millennium, I came on ETC to try to find out just WHO say them would be in that millennium kingdom.
He was proposing a king David on a throne in this sin-filled filthy world where glorified bodies would cohabitate with natural-sinners under the rule basically of the Jewish system.
Hey, that sound cultish to me. Glorified spiritual bodies with earthly sinners???
OK, with more feedback & reading, I find that in Rev. 3, the letters to the churches, Jesus says, "to overcomers they will go to the New Jerusalem.
And those 144,000 Jews are on Mt. Zion in heaven in Rev.14 (which is but only seemed like a result & thus the vision, of their next realm, after this "Tribulation & Christ coming at this so called "end of the world"-it's over doomsday-your children will not have a chance at-life-on-earth scenario supposed.- My life's so bad, I want Jesus to return & destroy all the sinners bc I can only hope for heaven tonic mind-set.
Anyway, I was not so slow to be convinced on the ETC board that Christ was coming after a tribulation.
I swallowed my pride & publicly admitted that that is what the text showed. I am blessed in that department. I accept humiliation & admit when someone or ones are right. I get ahead that way. I know when to listen.
That's many people's achilles heal. LIstening in itself is an art. Very few people possess it. Even more are not like that naturally either.
I learned a long, long time ago- it's only when you listen(to good teachers of course) that you learn.
If one doesn't admit the truth when they see it, & ignore a truth, they aren't very smart, imo.
If some broaden their minds & research history & study what the great tribulation & the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in 70AD meant Biblically, well, it just might lead them to a preterist view.

My bible tells me otherwise.That's fine, Fenris. But I think the Holy Writ is more than the 1st 5 books of the OT.
And for the rest of the Bible, I don't think God intended for more than one message to come across, especially the important ones.

I believe God is "all done" with earthly Israel & Judaism, good or bad.
The Muslims believe that God gave them the same land. I admit, the Jews were once the chosen people & were given the land. But God said they lost the land in so many words, bc His promise was conditional, Jews broke it & God had to send Jesus in the flesh to save them from their sins.
Israel is like any other country that may have had an enemy.
Nothing is Biblical,imo, so basically, Israel is on their own like every body else throughout history.
But I don't think God favors any terrorists, so I hope the good guy comes out ahead.

Shalom & Saalom & Peace on earth,

ALLEGRA

Fenris
Jan 25th 2008, 12:58 AM
That's fine, Fenris. But I think the Holy Writ is more than the 1st 5 books of the OT.As do I.


And for the rest of the Bible, I don't think God intended for more than one message to come across, especially the important ones.I'm not sure I understand this.


I believe God is "all done" with earthly Israel & Judaism, good or bad.As I've said, you're entitled to your opinion. God apparently feels otherwise though.

See Leviticus 26: 44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Seems pretty clear to me that God considers the covenant to be permanent.


The Muslims believe that God gave them the same land. I admit, the Jews were once the chosen people & were given the land. But God said they lost the land in so many words, bc His promise was conditional, Jews broke it & God had to send Jesus in the flesh to save them from their sins.I don't see anywhere that God says the covenant is conditional.



Israel is like any other country that may have had an enemy.Jewish history is rather unlike that of any other country.


Nothing is Biblical,imo, so basically, Israel is on their own like every body else throughout history.No one has ever been 'on their own' in history. Everything that happens, good or bad, is from God.

threebigrocks
Jan 25th 2008, 02:24 AM
Allegra, do you not understand the reason for the hope we are to have, through faith, in the promise God has given us?

Titus 1


1Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, 3but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,


Also, if all of scripture is in the past, all fufilled, then why bother with it any longer? If the second coming has already happened, what of this?

1 Corinthians 15


20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


We still have worldly lrule and authority and power in that authority. If all the enemies of Christ have been crushed, then why is there so much and so many against Him?

Allegra
Jan 25th 2008, 03:21 AM
Allegra, do you not understand the reason for the hope we are to have, through faith, in the promise God has given us?

Titus 1
I have the hope of eternal life through faith in Christ. Just bc there was a group resurrection that happened doesn't change John 3:16.
"Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on" (Rev.)


Also, if all of scripture is in the past, all fufilled, then why bother with it any longer? If the second coming has already happened, Is ALL scripture only about the end of your life, or did Jesus say He came so that we may have life & life abundantly? Aren't the teachings well worth meditating on & reviewing & remembering for prayer? The fruits & gifts of the H.S.- they are worth looking into. I went to a spiritual cleansing seminar at a church for 16 Fridays. It was awesome. It was all about this life & the H.S., sin & the world.
Isn't the Bible the Handbook for every problem we have. I certainly heard & believe that.

what of this?

1 Corinthians 15Well, I believe St.Paul was raised at the last trumpet just as he said they would. That was the 7th trumpet in Revelation which depicts the resurrection & the proclamation of the kingdom of Christ.
What Christ handed up to the Father was the Old covenant kingdom after having fulfilled the Old covenant promises to the righteous.




We still have worldly lrule and authority and power in that authority. If all the enemies of Christ have been crushed, then why is there so much and so many against Him?Not sure what that word is exactly- Irule or I rule.
The enemies of God sometimes are specific, like Gog & Magog in Rev20.
God/Jesus did not take away free will though.
And imo, Christians have a better quality of life now & after this life.

threebigrocks
Jan 25th 2008, 03:39 AM
Not sure what that word is exactly- Irule or I rule.
The enemies of God sometimes are specific, like Gog & Magog in Rev20.
God/Jesus did not take away free will though.
And imo, Christians have a better quality of life now & after this life.

Get rid of the lower case L. Typo, which I'm sure you could tell because we use the same font. ;)

Sure, some are specific and loom large in our global society. But what about President Bush? Is he not a ruler? How about prime ministers, kings, dictators, etc.? Had Christ come again, they would not be in power. In the end, God is all in all, even over Christ.

Allegra
Jan 25th 2008, 04:12 AM
Get rid of the lower case L. Typo, which I'm sure you could tell because we use the same font. ;)
I still am not following you. :confused

Sure, some are specific and loom large in our global society. But what about President Bush? Is he not a ruler? How about prime ministers, kings, dictators, etc.? Had Christ come again, they would not be in power. In the end, God is all in all, even over Christ.
Christ's kingdom is spiritual, right?
We only experience the New Jerusalem in part,with new covenant blessings though, while we are in this life.
The perfect state of the kingdom is the heavenly one.
Is there not to be human leaders on earth? Of course!
Now, what they stand for, that's another story. If Bush is a Christian, I feel better about his intentions at least.
And an evil dictator is an evil dictator. He'll pay for his transgressions either swiftly or eventually.
I don't know what else to say. The world goes on. Being in Christ means having peace about any tribulation that may face us. And rejoicing when our prayers are answered, & if boasting, boasting in the Lord bc it is He who blesses us & so we can bless others too.

Teke
Jan 25th 2008, 02:09 PM
It makes a huge difference. If you're going to discard Jewish rules why did God bother to make them in the first place?

The guidelines for Israel were for their nation to function. Levi was cursed by his father and blessed by God in the priesthood. They took the place of every first born. And they couldn't own anything, but were supported by the people and their sacrifices.

Which is why Jesus priesthood is of Mechizedek. It doesn't carry a curse and doesn't need support of the people. Which is why animal and food sacrifices aren't necessary any longer.
This is more in relation to the role the early patriarchs portrayed, before Israel and it's law of priesthood FOR the Levites. Prophets like Elijah followed this tradition. This is why they built altars and made sacrifices even tho they weren't of the Levitical priethood.

Your dispute of such would stand if it had always been so as it was with the Levites, but it wasn't.
Jesus was very "old school" like the Hebrews.



Abraham's faith is not the topic of discussion here. The Jewish rules of priesthood are. Different peoples had different toles to play in Jewish life. The descendants of Aaron served as functionaries in the Temple. The descendants of king David were Israel's kings. This is what God stated He wanted in the bible.

Actually Abraham is key in all discussions of scripture.

And the reasons for such were to serve the needs of a particular people. Not all the people of the world. God did not state to do so with all the people of the world.
As you said, "Israel's kings" were descendent's of David, but all kings were not.

That is the problem of Judaism, it leaves no room for other people such as all the people of the world.

Fenris
Jan 25th 2008, 02:52 PM
The guidelines for Israel were for their nation to function. Levi was cursed by his father and blessed by God in the priesthood. They took the place of every first born. And they couldn't own anything, but were supported by the people and their sacrifices. Right. So far, so good.


Which is why Jesus priesthood is of Mechizedek. It doesn't carry a curse and doesn't need support of the people. Which is why animal and food sacrifices aren't necessary any longer. Woah. Hold up here. You're saying there was no progressive revelation. You're saying that the ideal wasn't Judaism, but some earlier religious practice. You're not saying Judaism is obsolete, you're saying it was never good to begin with. If that's true, why bother with the Jews in the first place?



This is more in relation to the role the early patriarchs portrayed, before Israel and it's law of priesthood FOR the Levites. Prophets like Elijah followed this tradition. This is why they built altars and made sacrifices even tho they weren't of the Levitical priethood.Umm, Elijah was of the priesthood.


Your dispute of such would stand if it had always been so as it was with the Levites, but it wasn't.
Jesus was very "old school" like the Hebrews.Again this desire to return to pre-Sinai.




Actually Abraham is key in all discussions of scripture.Why?


And the reasons for such were to serve the needs of a particular people. Not all the people of the world. God did not state to do so with all the people of the world. Yes, the bible was given to the Jews, for the Jews.

As you said, "Israel's kings" were descendent's of David, but all kings were not.The Hasmonean dynasty met a tragic end because they took what was not theirs.


That is the problem of Judaism, it leaves no room for other people such as all the people of the world.
Completely untrue.

Fist of all, Judaism accepts converts. A convert is a full Jew, regardless of ancestry. Secondly, Judaism is more inclusive than Christianity in that we believe that God is not interested in one's faith, but rather one's actions. A non-Jew keeping the seven Noahide laws is assured a place in the world-to-come. A believing Jew who sins is not.

Seems very fair to me.

Teke
Jan 25th 2008, 03:59 PM
Woah. Hold up here. You're saying there was no progressive revelation. You're saying that the ideal wasn't Judaism, but some earlier religious practice. You're not saying Judaism is obsolete, you're saying it was never good to begin with. If that's true, why bother with the Jews in the first place?

I don't agree with things like "progressive revelation" or "systematic theology". But what I mean and what you mean may be two different things. So I can't be sure what you mean by "progressive revelation".

You already know that Judaism isn't the religion of ancient Israel. Or else why isn't it called "Israelism" rather than Judaism which associates it with Judah. And why isn't it practiced as Israel did.

Or, a thought here, are you associating priesthood by precedence of the king tribe. And that being because of David......:dunno: I'd need some dots connected for that proposition.


Umm, Elijah was of the priesthood.

I'd be interested if you can prove that. I know it's been speculated, but I've never seen any real proof of such. And even if he was, he didn't do things according to the Levitical priesthood.


Again this desire to return to pre-Sinai.

Actually it's known as the return to the garden concept.



Why?

Are you serious.
Abraham had eight sons, do you want to give an account for all of them by Judah.


Yes, the bible was given to the Jews, for the Jews.

The bible is for the children of Abraham, not just the Jews.
If it were for just the Jews, then it would only use references for Jews.



Completely untrue.

Fist of all, Judaism accepts converts. A convert is a full Jew, regardless of ancestry. Secondly, Judaism is more inclusive than Christianity in that we believe that God is not interested in one's faith, but rather one's actions. A non-Jew keeping the seven Noahide laws is assured a place in the world-to-come. A believing Jew who sins is not.

Seems very fair to me.

Is this your explanation for Abraham and his descendent's, they are under the Noahide laws. I've studied such an explanation and it smacks of the Roman catholic concept of "dispensing of grace". Which leaves the Jew, in relation to everyone else, looking like the pope of RC.

Fenris
Jan 25th 2008, 04:12 PM
I don't agree with things like "progressive revelation" or "systematic theology". But what I mean and what you mean may be two different things. So I can't be sure what you mean by "progressive revelation".What I mean is that God builds on His previous revelations to Man. You're saying that His revelation to the Jews was ultimately meaningless. Why did God, in His infinite wisdom, waste His time?


You already know that Judaism isn't the religion of ancient Israel.Um, yes, it is.


Or else why isn't it called "Israelism" rather than Judaism which associates it with Judah. And why isn't it practiced as Israel did.Because the ten Tribes were called 'Israel', and the ones that were exiled later were called 'Jews', after the tribe of Judah. Although they were also Benjaminites, Levites, and remnants of other tribes.


Or, a thought here, are you associating priesthood by precedence of the king tribe. And that being because of David......:dunno: I'd need some dots connected for that proposition. I can't provide dots because I have no idea what you just said.



I'd be interested if you can prove that. I know it's been speculated, but I've never seen any real proof of such. I have oral tradition. It means something to me and nothing to you.


And even if he was, he didn't do things according to the Levitical priesthood. Well, there were extenuating circumstances. A prophet may temporarily break rules.



Actually it's known as the return to the garden concept.
Mechizedek lived in the garden?



Are you serious.
Abraham had eight sons, do you want to give an account for all of them by Judah.So what? God's promises were passed on to one son only-Isaac.



The bible is for the children of Abraham, not just the Jews. No. The bible was given to the people who stood at Sinai. Who was that again? Oh, yeah. The Jews...


If it were for just the Jews, then it would only use references for Jews.It does.




Is this your explanation for Abraham and his descendent's, they are under the Noahide laws. I've studied such an explanation and it smacks of the Roman catholic concept of "dispensing of grace". Which leaves the Jew, in relation to everyone else, looking like the pope of RC.All of mankind is under the Noahide laws, except the Jews who are held to a higher standard. I don't get your 'pope' refrence.

Teke
Jan 25th 2008, 05:24 PM
What I mean is that God builds on His previous revelations to Man. You're saying that His revelation to the Jews was ultimately meaningless. Why did God, in His infinite wisdom, waste His time?


Hey, as you've consistently said, everyone serves a purpose. Israel served his. He can rest now because the Messiah came and took over for him. ;)


Um, yes, it is.

That is not the way you've identified it. You have called it rabbinic Judaism, to me a distinction is made in putting it that way.


Because the ten Tribes were called 'Israel', and the ones that were exiled later were called 'Jews', after the tribe of Judah. Although they were also Benjaminites, Levites, and remnants of other tribes.

I rest my case with your own testimony "after the tribe of Judah".


I can't provide dots because I have no idea what you just said.
It was just a fleeting thought.



I have oral tradition. It means something to me and nothing to you.

I believe in oral tradition, so it may mean something to me. I've thought he might be a priest because of John the Baptist referenced to Elijah, and John wasn't a priest but his father was. John was a prophet.


Well, there were extenuating circumstances. A prophet may temporarily break rules.

OK



Mechizedek lived in the garden?

It was a point of reference to that end.
That he was the king priest of Salem, later known as Jerusalem, has been postulated.



So what? God's promises were passed on to one son only-Isaac.

And that was for ONE reason only, to identify to all people the Messiah's lineage.


No. The bible was given to the people who stood at Sinai. Who was that again? Oh, yeah. The Jews...

Israel received the law at Sinai, not the bible. As I said, it serves it's purpose. Christians have a different purpose or mission.


All of mankind is under the Noahide laws, except the Jews who are held to a higher standard. I don't get your 'pope' refrence.

Noahide law and Judaism would be like comparing Protestantism to Roman catholicism. Or IOW that is like you saying everyone else is schismatic in comparison to Judaism. Your higher standard equates to a more correct knowledge or understanding enabling. As you said, anyone can "become" a Jew of Judaism. Til then their out of the loop of the higher standard, and are in a more lax state (schism).

Of course Christianity is the paradox of that.

threebigrocks
Jan 25th 2008, 05:36 PM
Alrighty, seeing as there is another thread in here that relates to the OP of preterism and this one is straying further from that with each post, I am going to close this thread.

Fenris
Jan 25th 2008, 05:39 PM
Hey, as you've consistently said, everyone serves a purpose. Israel served his. He can rest now because the Messiah came and took over for him. ;). 'Took over for him'? I don't even know what that means. The Jews served as priests for the world before Jesus? Then why was he even necessary?



That is not the way you've identified it. You have called it rabbinic Judaism, to me a distinction is made in putting it that way.Unless Judaism was always this way. Which I believe it was.



I rest my case with your own testimony "after the tribe of Judah".Why? Because descendants of the tribe of Judah are practicing the religion God gave to them? You have a funny way of debating.


It was just a fleeting thought.I guess it just kept fleeting then.




I believe in oral tradition, so it may mean something to me. I've thought he might be a priest because of John the Baptist referenced to Elijah, and John wasn't a priest but his father was. John was a prophet.Eh. Why can't someone be a priest and a prophet?



It was a point of reference to that end.
That he was the king priest of Salem, later known as Jerusalem, has been postulated.Yes, he probably was. But again, why would God give revelation that was unnecessary? If Malchizedek had a better way of serving God, why is he a minor biblical figure? Why wasn't he the start of the Jewish people?




And that was for ONE reason only, to identify to all people the Messiah's lineage.Wow. So millions of Jews lived and died only because they were to be the messiah's co-religionists?



Israel received the law at Sinai, not the bible. As I said, it serves it's purpose.Don't you mean 'it served it's purpose'? Past tense?


Christians have a different purpose or mission.Yes, I agree.



Noahide law and Judaism would be like comparing Protestantism to Roman catholicism. Or IOW that is like you saying everyone else is schismatic in comparison to Judaism. Your higher standard equates to a more correct knowledge or understanding enabling.Yes, because it is a higher understanding. But then, with this higher understanding comes additional responsibility and higher expectations of Jewish behavior. You have to keep 7 laws; I have to keep 613.


As you said, anyone can "become" a Jew of Judaism. Til then their out of the loop of the higher standard, and are in a more lax state (schism).Right. So? Why would God hold everyone to the same standard? I mean, we expect a rich man to give more charity than a poor man. Can't God have different expectations from different peoples?

Ta-An
Jan 25th 2008, 08:15 PM
Shalom Fenris...... you do know that the second coming is predicted in Malachi ..remember ;)Malachi :eek:
Sligah my dear friend.... :blush:

Zechariah chapters 9-14 :idea:

This is what Arnold Fruchtenbaum says... better than what I can do :
In Leviticus 26, Moses foretold of how the Jews would be scattered all over the world as a result of disobedience to God’s revealed will. And through verse 39, worldwide dispersion is a fact, fulfilling Moses’ prediction. According to the New Testament, this was caused specifically by the rejection of the Messiahship of Jesus. Then, in Leviticus 26:40-42, Moses states: 40And they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, in their trespass which they trespassed against Me, and also that, because they walked contrary unto Me, 41I also walked contrary unto them, and brought them into the land of their enemies: if then their uncircumcised heart be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity; 42then will I remember My covenant with Jacob; and also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. Verse 42 reveals that God has every intent to give Israel all the blessings and promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, especially as it pertains to the Promised Land. But before they can begin to enjoy these blessings and promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, during the Messianic Age, it is first necessary for them to fulfill the condition of verse 40: They must confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers. Notice this: The word “iniquity” is singular, and it is specific. There is one specific iniquity which Israel must confess before she can begin to enjoy all of the benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant.
Jeremiah 3:11-18

The second passage is Jeremiah 3:11-18: 11And Jehovah said unto me, Backsliding Israel hath showed herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. 12Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith Jehovah, I will not keep anger for ever. 13Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against Jehovah thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith Jehovah. 14Return, O backsliding children, saith Jehovah; for I am a husband unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15And I will give you shepherds according to my heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. 16And it shall come to pass, when ye are multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith Jehovah, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of Jehovah; nether shall it come to mind; neither shall they remember it; neither shall they miss it; neither shall it be made any more. 17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of Jehovah, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the stubbornness of their evil heart. 18In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have for an inheritance unto your fathers.

In verses 14-18, Jeremiah begins to describe the blessing which God has in store for Israel in the Messianic Kingdom. It will be a time of tremendous blessing and restoration for the Jewish people, when the Kingdom is established by their Messiah. But all these blessings are conditioned by verse 13, which declares that they must acknowledge or confess one specific iniquity that they committed against Jehovah their God.

The third passage is in the Book of Zechariah. Zechariah chapters 12, 13 and 14 are a unit of thought that develop one theme. Chapter 13 speaks of the national cleansing of Israel from their sin. Chapter 14 describes the Second Coming of Messiah and the establishment of the Kingdom.

But these events – the cleansing of Israel followed by the Second Coming of Christ and the Messianic Kingdom – are all conditioned on Zechariah 12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. Before Israel receives the cleansing of her sin and before Christ returns to establish His Kingdom, Israel must first look “unto” (not “upon” or “on” as in some translations) the One whom they have pierced and plead for His return. Once they do this, then, and only then, will they receive their cleansing and begin to enjoy the blessings of the Messianic Age.

Ta-An
Jan 25th 2008, 08:21 PM
No, please remind me of the second coming/quote]
Hosea 5:15

The fourth passage is in Hosea five, a chapter in which the One speaking is God Himself. In verse 15, He states: I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly. There are certain presuppositions behind the understanding of this verse: One must leave a place before returning to it. In this passage, God states that He is returning to His place. God’s place is Heaven. Before God can go back to Heaven, He must first leave it. The question is, when did God leave Heaven? God left Heaven at the Incarnation in the person of Yeshua of Nazareth. Then, because of one specific offense committed against Him, Jesus returned to Heaven at the ascension from the Mount of Olives. This verse further states that He will not come back to earth until that offense which caused Him to return to Heaven is acknowledged or confessed. What is that Jewish national offense committed against the person of Christ? It is not, as many believe, the act of killing Him. The murder of Messiah was committed by Gentile, not Jewish, hands: He was condemned and sentenced by a Gentile judge; He was crucified by Gentile soldiers. But all this is ultimately irrelevant; God’s program for mankind – Jews and Gentiles alike – required Jesus to die anyway to become the sacrifice for sin. The national offense of Israel was in the rejection of His Messiahship. And Hosea 5:15 again affirms that Yeshua will return to the earth only when this offense is acknowledged or confessed.


The fifth passage, in Matthew 23, contains Christ’s denunciation of the Scribes and Pharisees, the Jewish leadership of that day, for leading the nation in the rejection of His Messiahship: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Speaking to the Jewish leadership, Christ reiterates His original desire to gather them if they would only accept Him (v. 37). But due to their rejection of His Messiahship, they will be scattered instead of gathered. Their house, the Jewish Temple, will be destroyed with nothing remaining (v. 38). He then declares that they will not see Him again until they say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. This is a messianic greeting, and it will signify their acceptance of the Messiahship of Jesus.

Messiah will not return until the Jews and the Jewish leaders ask Him to come back. For just as the Jewish leaders led the nation to the rejection of His Messiahship, they must someday lead the nation to the acceptance of that very same fact.

This, then, is the twofold basis of the Second Coming of Christ: Israel must confess her national sin and then plead for Messiah to return, to mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son.

OOPS, I only now see this thread has been closed.... yet just a reminder to you my friend Fenris ;)