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Ebenezer
Jan 10th 2008, 01:03 AM
Ok, I know this one is probably going to get into a heated debate, but here is the question. Should we still keep the Sabbath Holy, did it ever loose it's significance? Or is it still a factor today. We say that it would be wrong to steal, and then we say that it would be wrong to commit adultery and still others say it is wrong to make graven images, and all the ten commandments apply but when we come to the 4th commandment, then there is a problem. Question, why is there a problem with the 4th commandment?

Clifton
Jan 10th 2008, 01:28 AM
Ok, I know this one is probably going to get into a heated debate, but here is the question. Should we still keep the Sabbath Holy, did it ever loose it's significance? Or is it still a factor today. We say that it would be wrong to steal, and then we say that it would be wrong to commit adultery and still others say it is wrong to make graven images, and all the ten commandments apply but when we come to the 4th commandment, then there is a problem. Question, why is there a problem with the 4th commandment?

People want to work 7 days a week to make a lot of money until it kills them because their bodies did not get rest :rolleyes:

Okay, probably true to some degree. The body needs rest and it seems after 6 days of work, one day of rest is proper. But Christ expounded upon the 10 commandments but also noted there may be situations where you may have to do something (an emergency).

The Sabbath was made for man (not just the Jewish), and it is not 'the Yehudi/Jewish Sabbath, but the "Sabbath."

Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates; (the text actually refers to outsiders as well here).

While some seem to be taken by the ghost of Marcion (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+ghost+of+Marcion%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) (whom expunged the OT, and mutilated the Gospels), you are right, for some reason those other commandments seem to glare forth - but there a couple of those laws that the policeman will have ya if ya caught breaking them, correct? Still not supposed to steal, murder, have no other gods or graven images, commit adultery, etc.

Some rest Saturdays and go to worship services and have picnics on Sundays, and a midday in the middle of the week.

I detect we are gonna get some flak for this anti-marcion stand :eek:

losthorizon
Jan 10th 2008, 02:06 AM
Ok, I know this one is probably going to get into a heated debate, but here is the question. Should we still keep the Sabbath Holy, did it ever loose it's significance? Or is it still a factor today. We say that it would be wrong to steal, and then we say that it would be wrong to commit adultery and still others say it is wrong to make graven images, and all the ten commandments apply but when we come to the 4th commandment, then there is a problem. Question, why is there a problem with the 4th commandment?

And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Hebrews 7: 8-12) The Sabbath was given to the Hebrew nation and was part of the “old covenant law”. Christians are not under the old covenant law and never were – when Christ died on the cross there was a change in the priesthood and a “change also of the law”. Christians are under the “new covenant” which nowhere commands us to “keep the Sabbath” or any other day "holy".
:)

Ebenezer
Jan 10th 2008, 02:58 AM
And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Hebrews 7: 8-12) The Sabbath was given to the Hebrew nation and was part of the “old covenant law”. Christians are not under the old covenant law and never were – when Christ died on the cross there was a change in the priesthood and a “change also of the law”. Christians are under the “new covenant” which nowhere commands us to “keep the Sabbath” or any other day "holy".
:)

The Sabbath was not a part of the "old covenant", instead the Sabbath was instituted in the garden of Eden before there was ever a law made. In Gen 2:2 the Bible says "And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
Gen 2:3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation. The Bible also says that we will celebrate the Sabbath in heaven from one new moon to another.Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. The sabbath was kept by Jesus, and He is our example. Where in the Bible does Jesus say that he abolished the Sabbath? It cannot be found, and we even have evidence in Acts of Paul keeping the Sabbath. The verse found in Revelation 1:10 about John being in the Spirit on the Lord's day is a verse that some use to say that He was in the spirit on Sunday, but this is not true, where in the Bible do we read about the Lord's Day being Sunday? In Matthew 12:8 we read "For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath." In Mark 2:28 we read "So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath." And in Luke 6:5 we read "And he said to them, "The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath." So according to the Gospels, what day is the Lord's day? The Sabbath. Also we can look at Matthew and there we find Jesus making a startling statement which applied after His death in Matthew 24:20 we read Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. Why would Jesus tell people to pray that their flight would not be on the Sabbath, because He knew that they would be keeping the Sabbath after His death.

losthorizon
Jan 10th 2008, 03:38 AM
The Sabbath was not a part of the "old covenant", instead the Sabbath was instituted in the garden of Eden before there was ever a law made. In Gen 2:2 the Bible says "And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

The Sabbath was most assuredly part and parcel to the covenant made between God and the Hebrew nation (the OT) – there are no references in the book of Genesis that even hint that any of the patriarchs observed the Sabbath as a “holy day”. Why – because the Sabbath was made known only to the Jews – through Moses – at Sinai. It was not made known to man before that time as a “holy day” to be kept by God’s people.
You came down also upon mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them right ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments, and made known unto them your holy sabbath, and commanded them commandments, and statutes, and a law, by Moses your servant” (Nehemiah 9:14)Again, the Sabbath was made known to the nation of Israel at Sinai – it was not a holy day instituted by God to any other people before that time and when the OT law was “nailed to the cross” the day the Lord of Glory “gave up the ghost” at Golgotha it became "obsolete" along with the complete Mosaical system – including the Levitical priesthood, animal sacrifices, temple worship, et, etc.

There is no command for Christians in the NT to keep the Sabbath holy – it was never given to “all mankind” and it was given only to the nation of Israel as a “sign” between Jehovah and Israel. Those who would attempt to bind “Sabbath keeping” on Christians today commit an egregious error wishing to go back under the "shadow" of the "old law".
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival (yearly feast days), a new moon celebration (monthly feast days) or a Sabbath day (weekly). These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Col 2)

Tanya~
Jan 10th 2008, 03:39 AM
Question, why is there a problem with the 4th commandment?

The reason it became controversial, is because Paul taught that it was not mandatory to observe the Sabbath. (See Romans 14, Galatians 4, Colossians 2).

Rom 14:5-6
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

losthorizon
Jan 10th 2008, 04:49 AM
Not true, the Sabbath is part of the ten commandment law, now if you insist that it was done away with then the whole ten commandment law has to be done away with...

You misunderstand what “law” Christians are under today and in your confusion you choose to go back under the old law – an endeavor that we are repeatedly warned not to do. At the cross, Jesus fulfilled that “old law” (Matt. 5:17) He took it out of the way and nailed to the cross – rendering it forever obsolete and non-binding.

And why was the OT law abolished? It was abolished so that Jesus could establish a “new law”. And what is the new law? It is the "perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) that Christians are under today. And nowhere in the New Testament are Christians ever (in any way, shape or form) commanded to "keep the Sabbath" under the “Law of Christ”. How do you explain this fact? The truth is you can’t and this fact alone knocks the legs out from under your argument. Those teachers today who bind keeping the Sabbath do so without the authority of God – they are adding to God’s word and binding on men what is not bound by God.

The command to keep the Sabbath was given only to the physical nation of Israel at Sinai – it was never given to any Gentile nation - it was never given to Christians and it became obsolete at the cross.

fightingfalcon
Jan 10th 2008, 06:21 PM
You misunderstand what “law” Christians are under today and in your confusion you choose to go back under the old law – an endeavor that we are repeatedly warned not to do. At the cross, Jesus fulfilled that “old law” (Matt. 5:17) He took it out of the way and nailed to the cross – rendering it forever obsolete and non-binding.

And why was the OT law abolished? It was abolished so that Jesus could establish a “new law”. And what is the new law? It is the "perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) that Christians are under today. And nowhere in the New Testament are Christians ever (in any way, shape or form) commanded to "keep the Sabbath" under the “Law of Christ”. How do you explain this fact? The truth is you can’t and this fact alone knocks the legs out from under your argument. Those teachers today who bind keeping the Sabbath do so without the authority of God – they are adding to God’s word and binding on men what is not bound by God.

The command to keep the Sabbath was given only to the physical nation of Israel at Sinai – it was never given to any Gentile nation - it was never given to Christians and it became obsolete at the cross.

You didn't read my article... because had you you would have atleast known which law was abolished at the cross...

There is nothing in the NT that says NOT TO keep the sabbath... there are other commandments which in the NT were not COMMANDED to keep cause this was a no-brainer... they knew they had to keep the ten commandment law.

Also to say the ten commandment law or the sabbath was given to the jews is pure ignorance of the scriptures... the bible says the law is eternal...

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Paul is clear the LAW IS GOOD! He is obviously speaking here of the ten commandment law as he speaks of covetousness. He says that the law is how we know sin... if it is a sin to covet which is a command it is also a sin to break the 4th commandment.

John 15;10
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
How many of the commandments did Christ keep? If we should keep the commandments "even as Christ" did then shouldn't we also keep them all?

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

The NT doesn't say "keep the sabbath" but it does say MANY MANY times to keep the ten commandment law... the sabbath is STILL part of that law, nothing has changed, if you want to claim it has been done away with at the cross please show me a verse to back it up... also please read my article... it provides many verses to back this up.

In the end times the test are those who keep the commandments... ALL OF THEM!

One thing no anti-sabatarian can answer is this... if the sabbath was done away with at the cross then why do you goto church on sunday? Some claim "cause the day doesn't matter, we worship God" - that doesn't make sense... if the sabbath was done away with, it was no longer needed, it was no longer binding then why would we keep another day? The fact is it was never abolished, the ten commandment law had NOTHING TO DO with the "ordinances" abolished at the cross..

Ebenezer
Jan 10th 2008, 07:08 PM
The Sabbath was most assuredly part and parcel to the covenant made between God and the Hebrew nation (the OT) – there are no references in the book of Genesis that even hint that any of the patriarchs observed the Sabbath as a “holy day”. Why – because the Sabbath was made known only to the Jews – through Moses – at Sinai. It was not made known to man before that time as a “holy day” to be kept by God’s people.
You came down also upon mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them right ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments, and made known unto them your holy sabbath, and commanded them commandments, and statutes, and a law, by Moses your servant” (Nehemiah 9:14)Again, the Sabbath was made known to the nation of Israel at Sinai – it was not a holy day instituted by God to any other people before that time and when the OT law was “nailed to the cross” the day the Lord of Glory “gave up the ghost” at Golgotha it became "obsolete" along with the complete Mosaical system – including the Levitical priesthood, animal sacrifices, temple worship, et, etc.

There is no command for Christians in the NT to keep the Sabbath holy – it was never given to “all mankind” and it was given only to the nation of Israel as a “sign” between Jehovah and Israel. Those who would attempt to bind “Sabbath keeping” on Christians today commit an egregious error wishing to go back under the "shadow" of the "old law".
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival (yearly feast days), a new moon celebration (monthly feast days) or a Sabbath day (weekly). These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Col 2)
Also we are not told anywhere in Genesis, thou shalt not kill, yet when Cain killed able it was labeled as a sin. What about when Abraham lied to Pharaoh? Was that not a sin either. What about Judah and Tamar, when Tamar committed adultery they were still going to kill her. (Genesis 38). Let's look at the reason we are to keep the Sabbath, in Exodus 20:11 we read "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." Why did He make the Sabbath day Holy, because in six days He made the heaven and the earth, which is a reference back to Genesis two. And why is it that He (God) tells us to Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy? Also we can look in Mal 3:6 "For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed." God does not change, why would He change something that He instituted from before creation? Also, the text that you quoted in Col 2 needs to be put into context. Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Col 2:15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Notice here that Jesus did not cancel the commandments but the record of debt, debt to what? The debt of breaking the law, what are the legal demands talked about? Death The law demands that someone has to die for our sins, and Jesus did that, but that does not mean that we can go on sinning. What does sin look like? How do we know what sin is? The ten commandments show us exactly what sin is. But just because we are forgiven does not mean that we can go on breaking the law. We need to turn away from sin. The Bible also calls feast days a sabbath day as well. In Lev 16:30 we read "For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins.
Lev 16:31 It is a Sabbath of solemn rest to you, and you shall afflict yourselves; it is a statute forever." Notice that the Bible calls the Day of Atonement a Sabbath, and it is a feast day. When Paul talks about letting no one judge you in regard to a Sabbath day he is talking about feast days. He is not talking about The Sabbath, he is talking about a sabbath day.
So in conclusion, the Sabbath was not done away with, it is still in effect to this day and will be throughout eternity.

Jude1:21
Jan 10th 2008, 07:30 PM
My wife and I rest on the sabbath between Friday and saturday sundown.
We are not Jewish but as we as gentiles believe we are grafted in with the Jewish people.And in Genesis it does say that our Father rested on the seventh day.
I believe sunday worship was bought in by the Roman Emperor Constantine.

RJ Mac
Jan 10th 2008, 08:06 PM
When one looks at the Ten Commandments from the Christian era, we see that Jesus doesn't nullify them but spiritualizes them. You have heard thou shall not murder but I say thou shall not hate. Do not commit adultery - do not look upon a woman in such manner etc. So what about the Sabbath?

I put forward we are in the Sabbath rest everyday as Christians Heb.4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

God rested from His works in Gen.2:2 But Jesus says His Father is busy still today, Jn.5:17; What works did God rest from - physical works - creation. What work is God busy doing - spiritual, working with men, the physical is done and the spiritual presses on.

When do we enter His rest? Not when we die - but when we become a Christian and then we rest from our works! What are our works? Physical, whatever your job is, you don't worry about it any longer, you give it over to God. God blesses your job, your insights, if the physical work is going to be a success it will be because of God. You think you work so hard to make it a success, think again.

Does God want us focusing on doing physical works? Don't worry about what your going to eat or wear - Mt.6: God takes care of the birds, He takes care of us, You seek first His kingdom by doing His will. Leave the cares of this life alone - REST! and now do the works He called us to do.

Paul calls us to imitate Him as he imitates Christ, but how many Christians are more focused on surviving the rat race and are exhausted at the end of the day, looking forward to dying to get into His rest, missing His rest all along. It is not a physical rest, 24 hour kick back, it is spiritual, doing His will. Jn.4:34 My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me.

We work for no man - we work for Christ - Col.4:23-25 work for the Lord rather than for men. Your biggest contribution to your place of employment is your spiritual contribution, why do people waste their night time planning what they can do to make the job better, rather than praying to God for wisdom to make the work environment better.

I can't share Christ at work, you don't share Him at work you emulate Him.
What would Jesus do, fret over the physical health of the company or the spiritual health of your fellow employees. God says leave the physical alone, I'll take care of that for you, lay aside your works, take up my work, emulate My son, care for the spiritual, God's word needs to be our work. To do God's work is to be in His rest, for it is not a labor but a joy, Mt.11:28-30 Come to Me you who are weary and I will give you rest... Not when we die but everyday of our lives as the Sabbath rest for His people. Heb.4:9

The whole world wears itself out banging its head against the wall, we leave that in God's hands, He is in control, we get on with His work, reaching out and shining the light. If He comes today, your worries are for not - your worry Jesus says is a sin. I am not saying be a sluggard at work, do your best yes, but the focus is to be on the spiritual, how do I enrich these people's lives.

We have no answers, we have no solutions to the troubles people are in but Jesus does. Our mission is to introduce them to the Savior, He will care for their troubles, He will give them solutions, not us, He does the work and we get to watch people's lives change for the better and gain a brother or sister in Christ, what work is that? It's not, man are we blessed or what.
With every spiritual blessing - Eph.1:3

Sabbath rest, physical rest 24 hrs,? No. everyday of our lives, spiritually we are in the Sabbath rest of God.

RJ Mac

Clifton
Jan 10th 2008, 08:10 PM
My wife and I rest on the sabbath between Friday and saturday sundown.

Yea - it is also noteworthy that "the first of the week" actually begins sundown on Saturday.


We are not Jewish but as we as gentiles believe we are grafted in with the Jewish people.And in Genesis it does say that our Father rested on the seventh day.Rest on the Sabbath, have church that day or any other, worship him all days ;)

Common sense dictates that at the time of Adam and Eve, the vocabulary was quite limited - the Hebrew word for "Sabbath" did not yet exist (though, apparently the way it is written in the Torah, it was known by the time of Exodus). The institution of the day of rest is much older and is founded in nature and like marriage, was instituted in paradise (Gen 2:2,3).

What happened during some ages was that it was twisted into a bondage as opposed to a holy day. Christ corrected those errors and put the time of rest back into its proper form, not to mention, expound the commandments.


I believe sunday worship was bought in by the Roman Emperor Constantine.Yep - not to mention some "home-made" doctrines. He instituted the buildings of "church buildings" as well, which is not known to scripture, and apparently, had no mind or intents of instituting. The Greek Ekkelsia (which does not refer to a building, and is translated as "church", "assembly", and "congregation") in the NT referred to the body of believers as a whole, those meeting in a place, etc. Before Constantine, they met in homes (cp. Ro 16:5; 1Co 16:19; Col 4:15; Phm 1:2, among some of the verses) - at times of severe persecutions, they would meet in catacombs.

It is suspected that they may as well met at places in the streets, or there abouts.

Later on, before Constantine, some gave their houses up for the sole purpose of congregating together. House Churches still continue after all these decades, and in fact, (e.g. China), that is all the choice that some people have.

Jude1:21
Jan 10th 2008, 09:09 PM
Dear Fightingfalcon,
This was an excellent website which covered all the points of interest in this thread,thanks for posting it:)

losthorizon
Jan 10th 2008, 11:35 PM
You didn't read my article... because had you you would have atleast known which law was abolished at the cross...

I don’t need to read your article based on the presuppositions of men – I only need to read my Bible and in its pages I see exactly which “law” was nailed to the cross. The law abolished was the OT law that was fulfilled by Jesus Christ (Matt. 5:17). The Mosaical system in its entirety was rendered obsolete by His death and that obsolete system included the command to keep the Sabbath. This is not a difficult concept.

There is not one command in the NT for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy but there are warnings to beware of those teachers who try to “beguile you with enticing words” regarding what day to keep holy (Colossian 2). I will therefore take heed of what God’s word says and reject all false teachers who “through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men” try to bind on Christians today that which was done away at the cross...“Let no man therefore judge you… in respect of an holyday… or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
"I am no preacher of the old legal Sabbath. I am a preacher of the Gospel. The Sabbath of the Jew is to him a task; the Lord's Day of the Christian, the first day of the week, is to him a joy, a day of rest, of peace, and of thanksgiving. And if you Christian men can earnestly drive away all distractions, so that you can really rest today, it will be good for your bodies, good for your souls, good mentally, good spiritually, good temporally, and good eternally." ~ Charles Spurgeon
If I exercise my freedom in Christ Jesus and do not keep the "old legal Sabbath" do I stand damned before my God, i.e., is “Sabbath-keeping” a salvific requirement in your peculiar religion?

Nihil Obstat
Jan 10th 2008, 11:43 PM
Actually, I *really* do think that you ought to read the article (especially since the argument that you've just presented is the very one that he addresses). Nothing's wrong with reading others' material to supplement your Bible reading - you're expecting that people are reading what you write, aren't you...? The article is pretty good, but I found the blogger's link to "Sabbath Truth" a better resource. I'd never given much thought to this until I read up on these people's material, and their material is right. We ought to keep the Sabbath / Saturday holy! I never understood the reason for "Saturday" as opposed to Sunday until I read their stuff - so, I highly recommend them.

- Lk.11

losthorizon
Jan 11th 2008, 12:07 AM
Actually, I *really* do think that you ought to read the article (especially since the argument that you've just presented is the very one that he addresses). Nothing's wrong with reading others' material to supplement your Bible reading - you're expecting that people are reading what you write, aren't you...? The article is pretty good, but I found the blogger's link to "Sabbath Truth" a better resource. I'd never given much thought to this until I read up on these people's material, and their material is right. We ought to keep the Sabbath / Saturday holy! I never understood the reason for "Saturday" as opposed to Sunday until I read their stuff - so, I highly recommend them.

- Lk.11
Actually, I did read enough of it to recognize the same old Sabbatarian rhetoric that one finds all over the Internet - nothing new. What did you read in the article(s) that compels you to keep Saturday holy and are we required to do so by God as a matter of faith?

Theophilus
Jan 11th 2008, 12:42 AM
Any more posts that link to anything remotely resembling board disallowed Seventh Day Adventist doctrine, and this thread is closed.

Understand me?

losthorizon
Jan 11th 2008, 12:43 AM
...I believe sunday worship was bought in by the Roman Emperor Constantine.
Sabbatarian myth: “Sunday worship was bought in by the Roman Emperor Constantine.”

Biblical and historical fact: Christians always worshipped on the “Lord’s Day” - first day of the week – the day Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

Please note - 'Constantine the Great' AKA, Flavius Valerius Constantinus was born AD 285 and died AD 337. The historical document, The Epistle of Barnabas was written AD 100 (185 years before Constantine was even born) and it records the historical fact -
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead"

Clifton
Jan 11th 2008, 12:47 AM
Here's a great website as well...


It is a good page - it brings up those “tucked” scripture references. True, Christ said the Sabbath was made for man (not “Yehudi/Jews”, though they are included), thus, include us Gentiles. I believe I had already read that same page last year.

I will quote one of those passages of Scripture reference that was given on that page, using a different English Translation, for the sake of better clarity:

For whoever shall guard all the Torah, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Torah.
James 2:10-11 The Scriptures 1998+

When the NT refers to the “scriptures”, it refers to The Tanach (called Hebrew Scriptures, or OT);

When the NT refers to the Law, with the exception of one or two places, it refers to the Torah (the first five books in the Bible);;

The NT was not termed as “scriptures” until somewhere near the Second Century, so they were not referring to “themselves” (the writers might be a bit shocked that their writings were actually considered canon). About the turn of the 1st century, it became the Tanach AND The Gospels (which back then was referred to as “The Memoirs”);
Prior to the writings of the Gospels, the “Gospel” (“good news”) came only by word of mouth and announcement (see Acts 15:7; 1 Peter 1:25)

Lawlessness basically refers to those whom break the 10 commandments - if they break one they break them all (I can’t remember the scripture reference at this time).

I shall depart here, confining “lawlessness” as spoking by Christ:

“"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; be departing from Me, the ones practicing lawlessness!’” (Matthew 7:23 ALT)

“"The Son of Humanity will send out His angels, and they will gather up out of His kingdom all the stumbling–blocks [[or, everything that offends]] and the ones practicing lawlessness.” (Matthew 13:41 ALT)

“"And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of the many will be made cold.” (Matthew 24:12 ALT)

SIG
Jan 11th 2008, 12:48 AM
The above link is to a Seventh Day Adventist site....though you have to research through the window-dressing to realize it...

Perhaps the seventh day sanctified after creation was a shadow of the Mosaic commandment, and the Mosaic commandment was a shadow in turn of the rest believers would enter in Christ.

None of the Ten Commandments are done away with, but in Christ they are realized in a spiritual rather than physical sense. So forbidding murder becomes even more refined to forbidding hate, forbidding adultery becomes even more refined to forbidding lust, etc. As for the Sabbath, that rest becomes even more refined, from a day of rest to ALL days being days of rest.

Jesus observed the Sabbath in Spirit, and was repeatedly called out about it. But He, of course, knew what the Sabbath really meant...

Clifton
Jan 11th 2008, 01:40 AM
The above link is to a Seventh Day Adventist site....though you have to research through the window-dressing to realize it...

Well, I had at least seen the likeness of such on other web pages. I read from that of the baptists, messianics, etc.;

Besides, I have never heard of any of what I know of as heter-orthodoxies (be it SDA, COC/DOC (Campbellites), JW (WatchTower), LDS (Mormons), WOF/FM (name-it claim it), (and the others usually listed), well, on down to little bits like Koresh) that reworks ALL of the underlying texts of the scriptures (I hope Koresh was not protestant since this is a protestant board! :pray: - my point is that even a small one place group does not rework ALL of the texts). And at times, I have notice they may have a thing or two that aligns with the underlying texts (Hebrew and Greek) where the mainstream of others do not. I don't believe in suggesting that none of them are NOT going to Heaven - one can only hope - who knows but The Lord - maybe to some aspect(s), we are ALL heter-orthodox. :eek:


Perhaps the seventh day sanctified after creation was a shadow of the Mosaic commandment, and the Mosaic commandment was a shadow in turn of the rest believers would enter in Christ.Well, SDA is not the only Sabbath-observant folk, many denominations and groups are reverting back to the integral set of the scriptures (I have read that this number is already 500+), on other matters as well. The issue I have with SDA is the "day of worship" - intertwining it with the Sabbath stating this is the day you must worship - I see that as an error - you can worship any day, everyday (I wonder if SDA has a mid-week worshiping service? Is that an extension of the Sabbath?). In history and the NT we learn they met on Saturday, but as well as Sunday and other non-specified days - BTW, in scripture, "the first of the week" begins Saturday at sundown, it appears that they met in Saturday evenings as well, but it's no "command" (the greek impertive) for that. Re: Choice, accommodation, etc..


None of the Ten Commandments are done away with, but in Christ they are realized in a spiritual rather than physical sense. So forbidding murder becomes even more refined to forbidding hate, forbidding adultery becomes even more refined to forbidding lust, etc.True, but the expounding of the commandments INCLUDES physical elements - adultery and murder, etc. can still be violated through the physical.


As for the Sabbath, that rest becomes even more refined, from a day of rest to ALL days being days of rest.ALL days? Not even those of us on disability can get away that - that is a physical impossibility, and people whom are able cannot make a living like that.


Jesus observed the Sabbath in Spirit, and was repeatedly called out about it. But He, of course, knew what the Sabbath really meant...He observed it "properly" as it was supposed to be - he opposed one or more houses of Jewish Sects whom perverted the Sabbath into a hardship and legalistic matter, and He corrected that issue.

All this makes good sense, God made the world in six days, and made the man to work for six days, and rest the seventh, and any health profession can testify that the human body needs rest from the toils/work which occur for six days - it is a historical fact and a health fact. I began studying Hebrew over 25 years ago and later on Koine Greek, the underlying language of the Scriptures into other languages, and there is nothing there that has alter these facts, or put away the observance of any of the commandments, or conveys a "pick-n-choose" or "totally" spiritualizing them, though, those "spiritual" attributes were brought about as well in the expounding.

BTW, *LOVE* your Avatar! ;)
P.S. I did break the link in my previous posted.

SIG
Jan 11th 2008, 02:34 AM
I'll clarify a bit:

1. Yes, SDAs are only one of various Sabbatarian groups--but they are one that are disallowed on this board...

2. When I say we rest every day, I mean that we rest even when we are working. Jesus said His Father is working until now, and that He is, too. But from a physical standpoint, physical rest is just plain common sense (We even see Jesus sleeping once--in the midst of a storm at sea ! :lol:). It also shows the kindness of God, Who provides it for animals, too. We are to reflect this kindness.

3. I don't see the Book of Acts as a model for the 21st-Century church. Many use it that way, but I do not (in fact, I taught that book so as to take a closer look). Remember that the First Century was a transitional time between Pharisaical Judaism and the baby Church--which was transitioning from orthodox Judaism to a sycretism of Jewish/Gentile believers in Moshiach Y'shua. So arguments based on when they did or didn't meet hold no weight for me. I prefer to focus on the Spirit Who gave the Law, and His spiritual intentions.

4. The physical intent of the Law will never be violated if the spiritual intent is observed.

Clifton
Jan 11th 2008, 03:09 AM
I'll clarify a bit:

1. Yes, SDAs are only one of various Sabbatarian groups--but they are one that are disallowed on this board...

Yea - probably because there is enough diversities between the protestants and orthodox to keep the board operators busy as it is. :)

I did remember the board was for reformation protestants[?]. I've been one for years, but leaned more to the orthodox, (I saw nothing forbidding me, and we have more in common anyway).

I see at http://www.thebereans.net/prof-index.shtml is states:
Seventh-Day Adventists (Sabbatarians) - Ellen G. White

Ellen G. White? Interesting. But what are a classified as "Sabbatarians" include some messianics, protestants, and orthodox are that now.

Looking at that Berean list, I see "Christadelphians" - Not familiar with them, but I'm familiar with all the rest on the list - mercy, maybe the folks that posted that list oughta be on it themselves :) I don't know.


2. When I say we rest every day, I mean that we rest even when we are working. Jesus said His Father is working until now, and that He is, too. But from a physical standpoint, physical rest is just plain common sense (We even see Jesus sleeping once--in the midst of a storm at sea ! :lol:). It also shows the kindness of God, Who provides it for animals, too. We are to reflect this kindness.:amen:


3. I don't see the Book of Acts as a model for the 21st-Century church. Many use it that way, but I do not (in fact, I taught that book so as to take a closer look). Remember that the First Century was a transitional time between Pharisaical Judaism and the baby Church--which was transitioning from orthodox Judaism to a sycretism of Jewish/Gentile believers in Moshiach Y'shua. So arguments based on when they did or didn't meet hold no weight for me. I prefer to focus on the Spirit Who gave the Law, and His spiritual intentions. 4. The physical intent of the Law will never be violated if the spiritual intent is observed.Are you Yehudi ??? ANI MEDEBER IVREET :D Actually, I'm a bit rusty in that dept. right now - I'm catching up on the Koine Greek right now - I'll do some memory refreshing on the Hebrew, if YHWH permits.

I think that the ה-בהמות m (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=0930)entioned (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=0930) in Job 40:15 rested on the Sabbath too :lol: Dinosaurs just had too much to carry around thus needed rest :P

Thanks for sharing.

SIG
Jan 11th 2008, 03:13 AM
I am indeed Yehudi (see my profile). Moshiach Y'shua means "Messiah Jesus" -- or, if we go totally Greek, "Christ Jesus."

PS: OOPS! Just looked up "ANI MEDABER IVREET." I do NOT speak Hebrew--but if you do, you certainly know whay Moshiach Y'shua means...Sssssorry...

Clifton
Jan 11th 2008, 03:23 AM
I am indeed Yehudi (see my profile).

Cool :cool:


Moshiach Y'shua means "Messiah Jesus" -- or, if we go totally Greek, "Christ Jesus."Yea - I've known that for a long time - when I pray to YHWH, I pray in the name of Y'Shua (this spelling variation seems to be more acceptable, to avoid any dispute of Yehshua vs Yahshua, etc.)

In Greek, it is Iesoos Christos - like nouns, names are declinable according the it's part in the sentence, thus, you may see it as Iesoon, Iesu as well. EE-SOOS, though some greek books say "YEE-SOOS" due to the "ie" (Iota + Epsilon, aspirated).

The Spelling Dictionary is going crazy with the above text...:spin:

Studyin'2Show
Jan 11th 2008, 12:26 PM
When Yeshua expounded the commandments 'spiritually' He did not negate the 'physical'. When He said that if we lust after someone we have already committed adultery in our hearts, He did not imply that we could now do the 'physical'. In fact, BECAUSE we don't commit the sin in our hearts, we will IN TURN keep it 'physically'. The same goes with not hating our brother, leading to the 'physical' keeping of not murdering. I most certainly agree that there is a 'spiritual' Sabbath rest that we enter into with Messiah. What I don't believe is that it negates the 'physical'. If it did, it wouldn't be in keeping with the pattern.

Someone said that the Sabbath command was only for the Jews. However, as was already addressed, Yeshua said that the Sabbath was made for MAN! Not that it was for Jews. What I also notice here is that He says it is FOR us. The religious leaders had turned it into something that was against the people; a burden, but that was never the Father's intention. I have received it as a gift and I am soooo grateful for the Sabbath my Father has given me! :pp It is such a blessing!

God Bless!

ravi4u2
Jan 11th 2008, 06:36 PM
However, as was already addressed, Yeshua said that the Sabbath was made for MAN! Since Christ is the Sabbath, this 'Sabbath' is now available to all men.

Ebenezer
Jan 11th 2008, 07:23 PM
How can the Sabbath be done away with. Christ is not the Sabbath, the sabbath is the day that God created for us to remember Him as our Creator. It was given in the beginning of time, before man had actually sinned, and if we look in Exodus 20we read "Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

When we look at this text there are some things that should be noticed. First of all, again, the first word of the commandment is "Remember" Which shows that some people obviously would tend to forget. But it is verse 11 we need to notice, because it takes us behind the old covenant back to Creation, where Jesus created the world. Notice what it says "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Question, does God change? Is God going to take something that He made holy and then go and say that it is not holy, that would in effect say that God's ways change. But we know that His ways do not change. Again, Jesus kept the Sabbath. Should we not then follow Christ's example? As many times as Jesus said "Follow me" don't you think that He meant what He said. When we follow Jesus example then we are following the truth. Did Jesus keep Sunday? The Bible does not say that He did. Who is our example... Jesus!:) And I know that it has been already said by someone, but Jesus says in Mark 2:27 that "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Notice that the Bible does not say that it was made for Jews, but it was made for man. But what about the rest of the New Testament, can it be said that Paul kept the Sabbath? Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,"

But is this the only place in Acts that talks about the Sabbath? Some may say, of course, He reasoned with the Jews, but what about the gentiles

Act 13:44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him.

What does Acts 13:44 say, it says that almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. Now, I'm no expert or anything like that, but it would seem that there would be gentiles in the audience at the time the message was given. In fact the Jews were jealous, but were they jealous of other Jews that were there, or were they actually jealous of the gentiles? It is clear that they were jealous of those who were meeting: the whole city. But what day is Paul preaching to the whole city? The Sabbath. Also when we look at Acts 16:13,14 we read about Paul visiting a Roman Colony.(definitely full of gentiles)
Act 16:11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis,
Act 16:12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days.
Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. We can see that the Sabbath is still kept even in Acts. You see friends, the Sabbath was never done away with, in fact it was kept in both the old and new testament. :)

Clifton
Jan 12th 2008, 12:03 AM
It is interesting that some attempt to distract the issue of the Sabbath by inserting notes about ‘the day of worship’, thus, Sunday is the Sabbath, yet, the same probably has Wednesday or Thursday as the ‘the day of worship’, and yet, do not call that day the Sabbath. The issue of a day of worship is not the issue (it is a mere attempt to throw things off), because people have various days of worship - you can worship any days or everyday. And various groupings have various days of worship meetings. The Jews, I think, worship Monday, Thursday, and Saturday I believe. The question the user that started this thread is in re of the Sabbath being observed, not about what day to worship.

One of the sites I have studied last year, gives clarity about things like Paul’s writings and more. Of course, they are “Jewish-messianic” (meaning, they accept Y’Shua as the Messiah), so I guess people might feel they are bias about some issues where gentiles are concerned. But I am gentile, and while I have not read all of the web pages, I have found no bias:

Beit Tehila Congregation - Torah Teachings (http://www.topraise.net/pages/torah/sat-sun.htm)
Sabbath: Saturday or Sunday? by Bill Cloud

Here’s an excerpt:



After considering all of the evidence, and there is plenty of it, I have come to this conclusion. The Sabbath is still the seventh day. There is no biblical reason to believe otherwise. However, I also believe that to adjust centuries of custom at this point is unlikely. Our entire society centers around the primary day of worship being on Sunday. To change now would be almost impossible and certainly viewed as undesirable by a majority of Christians. So, what do we do? Do we demand that churches all of a sudden switch back?

The only answer I see is this. If people want to worship on Sunday, then by all means, they should. Those who worship on Saturday must realize that they can not force-feed this issue. There are many Christians who will never be able to give up Sunday worship. Each person must be given the opportunity to grow as he can digest and process what he has learned (see Acts 15:21). At the same time, we need to realize that Sunday is not the Sabbath and what we do on Sunday does not replace the primacy of the Sabbath. Sure, God wants our worship everyday and there are many ways to worship, but the biblical sanctity of the seventh day Sabbath stands forever (Ex. 31:16).

The other side needs to realize that people who observe Saturday as Sabbath and the primary day of worship are not cultic or heretics. To the contrary, they are obeying the Scripture in the most literal way, as well as following their conscience. Perry worships on Sunday. I choose to observe Saturday as the Sabbath. Are we enemies? No. Is it a source of contention between us? No. Will there be those who vehemently disagree with both of us? Absolutely!

That is why each person, being duly informed should "work out his own salvation with fear and trembling." Each of us should follow our conscience, as we feel led of God. Both sides should refrain from castigating the other because they don't agree. Above all remember this. Our salvation is dependent upon one thing alone; heart-conceived belief in the death, burial and resurrection of the Messiah Y'shua of Nazareth, the Son of God.

Here is one last note. History reveals that the Christians of the first three centuries never confused the seventh day Sabbath with the Christian observation of the Lord's Day. Until the Sabbath was outlawed in the fourth century by a politically induced decree, they celebrated both. An answer to the dilemma? God bless you all.

losthorizon
Jan 12th 2008, 12:15 AM
...How can the Sabbath be done away with.


The Sabbath is still the Sabbath - the seventh day of the week - it was not "done away with". What was abolished at the cross was the command to keep the Sabbath as a matter of faith and it was “done away with” exactly the same way that the entire Mosaical system (Sabbath-keeping, animal sacrifices, etc) was “nailed to the cross”. The entire Jewish system was made obsolete the very moment Christ cried out, "It is finished!" as He "gave up the ghost".


Christ is not the Sabbath, the sabbath is the day that God created for us to remember Him as our Creator.
The Old Testament "shadows”, including Sabbath-keeping were ended when Jesus completed His work on the cross - thus fulfilling God's purpose for the weekly Sabbath. Paul plainly tells us this in the letter to the Colossians. He explains that the “bond which stood against us with its legal demands” was “set aside” and nailed to the cross. This "legal bond" included the command to keep the Sabbath.

Paul warns some would arise who would carry some back into the bondage of the “old law”. He tells us to "stand fast" and let “no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath…” Sabbatarians try their best to draw those who will listen back into the “shadow” but we need not be deceived because the shadow-(Sabbath-keeping, etc) ended at the cross, as Paul has made clear.

The Hebrew Sabbath is only a shadow, a picture of the rest Christians have in Christ Jesus - the OT shadows pointed to “the substance” that was Christ. The “True Sabbath Rest” is found by faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ…“There remains therefore a rest for the people of God” (Hebrews 4:9-10).
And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.

Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

And I know that it has been already said by someone, but Jesus says in Mark 2:27 that "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Notice that the Bible does not say that it was made for Jews, but it was made for man.
A Jew (of the male variety) is certainly classified as a “man”. Please note the verse in question does not say Sabbath-keeping was given to all men of every age. Why - because the command to keep the Sabbath was given only to the nation of Israel when the LORD gave the Ten Commandment Law to Moses at Sinai.
You came down also upon mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them right ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments, and made known unto them your holy sabbath, and commanded them commandments, and statutes, and a law, by Moses your servant” (Nehemiah 9:14)
If Sabbath-keeping was a universal practice from Adam until Moses as Sabbatarians want us to believe (and it was not) – why did Moses have to “make known” to the Israelites the “holy Sabbath” why didn’t they already know about this command? The simple answer is that God had not commanded anyone to “keep” the Sabbath before the Law given at Sinai – and that “law” was given only to the Israelites.

Can Ebenezer explain this? Can he explain why there are no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath before Moses? The Patriarchs were given specific instructions from God regarding altar construction, animal sacrifices, tithing, priests, circumcision, etc, etc but there is not one reference in Genesis about the command to “keep the Sabbath”? Why – because God never commanded Sabbath-keeping for the Patriarchs or any of the Gentile nations – it was given exclusively to the Hebrew nation.

And just as Ebenezer cannot explain that enigma, he also cannot explain why there is not one command given to Christians to keep the Sabbath in the NT. These facts alone do irreparable damage to the notion that Sabbath-keeping was give to all of God’s people for all time. It wasn't.

losthorizon
Jan 12th 2008, 12:26 AM
It is interesting that some attempt to distract the issue of the Sabbath by inserting notes about ‘the day of worship’, thus, Sunday is the Sabbath...

Lol - this is simply a straw man argument – no one is saying “Sunday is the Sabbath”. Sunday is the "Lord’s Day" – the first day of the week and the day Jesus rose from the grave. It is the day Christians from the beginning met to worship God. The Sabbath is exactly what the word means and exactly what it has always been – the seventh day of the week. Check out your Koine Greek. ;)
"If, then, those who walk in the ancient practices attain to newness of hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but fashioning their lives after the Lord's Day on which our life also arose through Him, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher." (Ignatius, AD 110)

Studyin'2Show
Jan 12th 2008, 02:24 AM
What else was nailed to the cross? Was the command not to murder 'nailed' there? How about coveting and adultery? I'm not meaning to be facetious, really. I'm not talking about thinking we are somehow to 'earn' righteousness. Righteousness only comes as a free gift from Messiah. So, now that we have been given this righteousness, should we not walk righteously, in keeping with the gift we've been given?

ravi4u2
Jan 12th 2008, 03:02 AM
How can the Sabbath be done away with. Christ is not the Sabbath, the sabbath is the day that God created for us to remember Him as our Creator.Paul says that Christ is the substance of shadows, one of which being the Sabbath.


It was given in the beginning of time, before man had actually sinned, and if we look in Exodus 20we read "Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.When we look at this text there are some things that should be noticed. First of all, again, the first word of the commandment is "Remember" Which shows that some people obviously would tend to forget. But it is verse 11 we need to notice, because it takes us behind the old covenant back to Creation, where Jesus created the world. Notice what it says "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.Again the people being addressed by Moses were the stock of Israel. This passage again shows how Sabbath is a shadow of the real rest, that can be found only in Christ Jesus.


Question, does God change? Is God going to take something that He made holy and then go and say that it is not holy, that would in effect say that God's ways change. But we know that His ways do not change. Again, Jesus kept the Sabbath. Should we not then follow Christ's example? As many times as Jesus said "Follow me" don't you think that He meant what He said. When we follow Jesus example then we are following the truth.God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations." Since Abraham is the father of faith and we are his descendents through faith, is circumcision required of us today? If not, did God change His mind on circumcision later in the new covenant? There are so many other things that Jesus did which was required by the law. He sacrificed in the Temple, should we also do that to 'follow' Jesus?


Did Jesus keep Sunday? The Bible does not say that He did. Who is our example... Jesus!:) And I know that it has been already said by someone, but Jesus says in Mark 2:27 that "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Notice that the Bible does not say that it was made for Jews, but it was made for man. But what about the rest of the New Testament, can it be said that Paul kept the Sabbath? Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,"I am not an advocate of Sunday worship either, but of living a life of worship everyday. And as it has already been said, Christ being the substance of the Sabbath is for all men. Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews, and being that being his custom, he kept the Sabbath.


But is this the only place in Acts that talks about the Sabbath? Some may say, of course, He reasoned with the Jews, but what about the gentiles

Act 13:44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him.

What does Acts 13:44 say, it says that almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. Now, I'm no expert or anything like that, but it would seem that there would be gentiles in the audience at the time the message was given. In fact the Jews were jealous, but were they jealous of other Jews that were there, or were they actually jealous of the gentiles? It is clear that they were jealous of those who were meeting: the whole city. But what day is Paul preaching to the whole city? The Sabbath.There have always been gentile converts to Judaism. There have always been gentiles, who were attracted by to the teaching provided in the synagogues about one true God versus the pantheon of gods the Romans had. It is no surprise that a large number would come to hear Paul peach on Christ and say that He is the fulfillment of the law. And they had to come on the sabbath because that would be the tradition in the synagogue. "... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).


Also when we look at Acts 16:13,14 we read about Paul visiting a Roman Colony.(definitely full of gentiles)
Act 16:11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis,
Act 16:12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days.
Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. We can see that the Sabbath is still kept even in Acts. In Acts 16, Paul purposely chose to go the the riverside on the Sabbath because this was where people who worshiped God gathered. This was where he met Lydia and God opened her heart, and she and her household were baptised. If she only became a follower of Jesus after she heard Paul, why was she referred to as someone who worships God? She must be a Jew or a gentile convert, who gathered every Sabbath with others, as required by the law to worship God.


You see friends, the Sabbath was never done away with, in fact it was kept in both the old and new testament. :)So, you are right my friend, the sabbath was never done away with. Christ did become the substance of the shadow of sabbath. And when we are kept by Christ, we enter into His rest, which surpasses all understanding...:pp

Clifton
Jan 12th 2008, 03:46 AM
Lol - this is simply a straw man argument

What ever your delusions have ya - just as the world does not have your reworked Hebrew Tanach and Greek NT, they have not your reworked English Dictionary.


no one is saying “Sunday is the Sabbath”. False, as is customary with your rhetoric. Many say that “Christ”, “moved” the Sabbath because certain houses of Jewish sects (e.g. one or more of the pharisee ones) adulterated the Sabbath and made it legalistic and burdensome. Christ corrected them and the Bible Sabbath, which YHWH Called the “Holy Sabbath”


Sunday is the "Lord’s Day" – the first day of the week and the day Jesus rose from the grave. It is a bit amusing that one day you use a text, which within its *context* shows “Lord’s Day” as the eighth day, which by calculation of one day equals 1000, thus, the world will have 6000 years, then come back with whole different context for "the Lord's Day". :confused (can't you make your mind up?). If and when you ever decide to read the text contextually, you will find that the *context* for the former, which you disjointed a snippet from, is just about close to correct with the intact integral of the Holy Scriptures - the “Lord’s / God’s Day”, “Day of the Lord”, comes in The End, and that my friend, translates back into the underlying texts of the scriptures into English and other language ;)


It is the day Christians from the beginning met to worship God.False again - it is ONE of the days they met - how enlightening that you state “this is simply a straw man argument” in reference to my mentioning about attempts to distract, and in affect, attempt to distract (as those that cling on the home-made doctrines are wont to do) with the very thing I pointed out.

The fact that Christians met "this day" or "that day" has nothing with them not resting on the Sabbath or observing it. Your ploy to derail does not work with me. They reserved work for other days, like collecting for the poor, etc., things not formed on the Sabbath - In fact, Paul had warned that there would be those to encourage otherwise.


The Sabbath is exactly what the word means and exactly what it has always been – the seventh day of the week. Check out your Koine Greek. False again - you give the term delimited a hard core word, don’t you? I began learning Hebrew about 27 years ago, long before I began learning Koine Greek (which was about 12 yrs later). Both the Hebrew and Greek for Sabbath have more than one meaning. It was a word not "in the beginning" but a "shorter word" of a "longer meaning" conceived later, just like many other words throughout histories. The Hebrew word, (and I will use Strong’s Numbers for better readability for the readers), 07676 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07676), was derived from 07673 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07673), which firsts appears at Genesis 2:2, thus, it was known then, so had to be carried out throughout history, until sometime during the 400 year bondage of the Israelites when they lost sight of some things of their ancestors, though not everything - (have you reworked this as well, or is this one of them passages you got tucked under the rug?)

On Hebrew 07676 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07676), which is derived and constructed based on 07673 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07673), as it first appears (one of those chapters you probably got tucked under the rug), is Exodus 16 (NOT 20 as you imply)... v.23 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Exo&chapter=16&verse=23):
He said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a time of cessation from work, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Whatever you want to bake, bake today; whatever you want to boil, boil today; whatever is left put aside for yourselves to be kept until morning.’” (for Bible Students here, read at least up to v.29)

As the context shows, The Holy Sabbath was already well known and certainly common. Of course, Mosheh (Moses) probably did not know of it until then - he was raised by the Egyptians, and as for those in bondage, The Holy Sabbath had no meaning to them, so it was probably lost to the Israelites in bondage as well.

As for the Greek word, 4521 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=4521), I do not need to “check” and it is not “mine”, I have known it since the last Century.

It boils down to one thing - unequivocally, your rhetoric and reworking of holy things and exchanging them for man (as you do often in here), does not translate back to the original languages in the integral way, not even synonymously.

I’ll get to rest of your post to me later when I stop laughing so hard about what you quoted (I'll also supply the unaltered translation)...:rofl: Just remember folks what I stated above, "In fact, Paul had warned that there would be those to encourage otherwise." -you're gonna love this! :spin:

losthorizon
Jan 12th 2008, 03:52 AM
What else was nailed to the cross? Was the command not to murder 'nailed' there? How about coveting and adultery? I'm not meaning to be facetious, really. I'm not talking about thinking we are somehow to 'earn' righteousness. Righteousness only comes as a free gift from Messiah. So, now that we have been given this righteousness, should we not walk righteously, in keeping with the gift we've been given?
Christians are under the new covenant and there is no command to keep the Sabbath in the new covenant – we are under the “law of liberty” which states (among other things) that we shall love our neighbors as ourselves which would prohibit “coveting and adultery”.:)

Clifton
Jan 12th 2008, 04:16 AM
What else was nailed to the cross? Was the command not to murder 'nailed' there? How about coveting and adultery? I'm not meaning to be facetious, really. I'm not talking about thinking we are somehow to 'earn' righteousness. Righteousness only comes as a free gift from Messiah. So, now that we have been given this righteousness, should we not walk righteously, in keeping with the gift we've been given?

Great questions. What was "nailed the cross" was the debt and the sacrificial lamb was completed once and for all. Y'Shua did not come to destroy or abolish "The Law" (Torah), but to "fulfil" See 4137 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=4137). There is more than one Greek word used the English Translation for "fulfil". Here it means, say, if you have a cup half full, then you fill it up, it is accomplished and complete - filled.

Also note, in the NT, when told to study the scriptures, that refers to the Tanach (OT), since NT was not "scripture" for decades" - And there is nothing in the NT where Christ says He did away, or will do away with any of the 10 commandments - in fact, he corrected, updated, and expounded upon them, and certainly, did not go to all that talk to do these for a year or so (until He was resurrected) when He could have been discussing other things, healing, etc. - common sense is such a wonderful gift YHWH gave us ;)

The word "new" in "NEW Covenant", has I have shown in a previous post, is the Greek Kainos (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2537), Not "Neos (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3501)", as some make it appear.

Kainos works like this... you bought a car, it is NEOS - later, perhaps even year, you remodel it (RENEW IT) - it is the SAME car RENEWED (Or refreshed), KAINOS - that's is why you may hear others refer to it as the "renewed conenant, or refreshed"). So put that in conjunction with the "fulfil" word mentioned above, and the light shines forth abound ever so brightly. :thumbsup:

Isn't technology wonderful? :)

losthorizon
Jan 12th 2008, 05:03 AM
...Both the Hebrew and Greek for Sabbath have more than one meaning. It was a word not "in the beginning" but a "shorter word" of a "longer meaning" conceived later, just like many other words throughout histories.

Huh? Per usual, Clifton – you post much but say little. Does Strong’s cover your clifton-speak or are you in a world all of your own.;)

sheina maidle
Jan 12th 2008, 05:05 AM
Ok, I know this one is probably going to get into a heated debate, but here is the question. Should we still keep the Sabbath Holy, did it ever loose it's significance? Or is it still a factor today. We say that it would be wrong to steal, and then we say that it would be wrong to commit adultery and still others say it is wrong to make graven images, and all the ten commandments apply but when we come to the 4th commandment, then there is a problem. Question, why is there a problem with the 4th commandment?

God revealed the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) to Moses and wrote them on tablets of stone (Exodus 34:4,28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy10:1-4).

Exodus 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 10:1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.

Deuteronomy 10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

Deuteronomy 10:3 And I made an ark of acacia wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.

Deuteronomy 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

The stones were placed in the ark located in the holy of holies in the Tabernacle (Exodus 25:21; Deuteronomy 10:4-5).

Exodus 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

Deuteronomy 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

Deuteronomy 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

The N.T. says the Ten Commandments are done away in Christ (2 Corinthians 3:1-18).

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

The rule of life for the Christian is not the Ten Commandments, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. We are to put on Christ, not the Ten Commandments (Romans 13:14; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18; Galatians 5:16-26).

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Way of Life Encyclopedia
Born again Christians are "in Christ". Being "in Christ" means you have entered into His rest/Sabbath (Hebrews 4:3) Jesus told the lawyer in Matthew 22:36-40:

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Sabbath was not given to the N.T. Church, it was given to Israel. Jesus kept the Sabbath and the feasts because He was born a Jew, born under the law, that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from its penalty and bondage (Galatians 4:4; Romans 9:5).

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 12th 2008, 02:50 PM
So, do you think Yeshua meant to say the Sabbath was made for the Jews, when He said it was made FOR MAN? :hmm: I imagine that someone has inherited a classic Rolls Royce and someone tells them they have a car FOR them, but they reply that they are not required to drive an old car. It's not about being required to do something, it's about recognizing that you've been given a gift and then enjoying that gift! The Sabbath was intended to be a gift FOR MAN, not a burden for his back as it had become. Yeshua correctly followed the Father's commands and I have purposed to follow His example. ;)

God Bless!

ohlurdy
Jan 12th 2008, 03:27 PM
Good information and very good explanations. Ebenezer, Clifton, and Fightingfalcon, the stuff you all said was so helpful I had to copy and paste it for my own records.

Thanks and God bless.

losthorizon
Jan 12th 2008, 03:58 PM
So, do you think Yeshua meant to say the Sabbath was made for the Jews, when He said it was made FOR MAN? :hmm: I imagine that someone has inherited a classic Rolls Royce and someone tells them they have a car FOR them, but they reply that they are not required to drive an old car. It's not about being required to do something, it's about recognizing that you've been given a gift and then enjoying that gift! The Sabbath was intended to be a gift FOR MAN, not a burden for his back as it had become. Yeshua correctly followed the Father's commands and I have purposed to follow His example. ;)

God Bless!
As a Jew and living under the Law of Moses, Jesus would have offered animal sacrifices but we do not follow His example today because Christians are not under the “old law”. If our salvation depended on keeping a certain day “holy” then the NT would have so stated but there is no requirement for us to keep the Sabbath anywhere in its pages. The command to keep the Sabbath holy was only given to the nation of Israel under the Mosaical system which was rendered obsolete at the cross.

Clifton
Jan 12th 2008, 05:01 PM
...On Hebrew 07676 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07676), which is derived and constructed based on 07673 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07673), as it first appears (one of those chapters you probably got tucked under the rug), is Exodus 16 (NOT 20 as you imply)... v.23 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Exo&chapter=16&verse=23):
He said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a time of cessation from work, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Whatever you want to bake, bake today; whatever you want to boil, boil today; whatever is left put aside for yourselves to be kept until morning.’” (for Bible Students here, read at least up to v.29)


Actually, that should state, "read at least up to v.30":

Exodus 16:30 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Exodus&chapter=16&verse=30) So the people <05971> rested <07673 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07673)> (8799 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=8799)) on the seventh <07637> day <03117>.

8799 tells us the Hebrew Stem is Qal, so when you look at the lexicon for 07673, look at the "Qal" sections. ;)

Clifton
Jan 12th 2008, 05:22 PM
Huh? Per usual, Clifton – you post much but say little. Does Strong’s cover your clifton-speak or are you in a world all of your own.;)

I'm surprised you actually got that far down the text without bailing out. Well, give credit where credit is due (assuming you started from the beginning, of course):hmm:.

Nonetheless, in others words, attempting to face the music caused you to dance out of responding to the corresponding Hebrew, the words, definitions, stems, etc., correct?

Per usual, The Bible speak much and says more than the little disjointed snippets you use, thus, Strong's covers the bible-speak (which you call clifton-speak - thanks for the flattery:blush:). Oh, FTR, as for Strongs, I only use the numbering system to better aid students and readability. ;)

And it is still so, the underlying texts (wHOLlY intact) do not support your, well, "commentary" - yet mine can be confirmed since it is available to the rest of the world:).

Now, can you respond to the issue that the seventh day has always been with us from the beginning, as the Hebrew shows. Also, did you dare to look at Exodus 16, or is the rug too heavy to lift, or is there way too much under it to go through - well, I suggest to leave it alone for today - today is the day of rest :D:

Exodus 16:30 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Exodus&chapter=16&verse=30) So the people <05971> rested <07673 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07673)> (8799 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=8799)) on the seventh <07637> day <03117>.

Genesis 2:2 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Genesis&chapter=2&verse=2) And on the seventh <07637> day <03117> God <0430> ended <03615> (8762) his work <04399> which he had made <06213> (8804); and he rested <07673 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07673)> (8799 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=8799)) on the seventh <07637> day <03117> from all his work <04399> which he had made <06213> (8804).

Isn't technology wonderful folks? :cool:

Clifton
Jan 12th 2008, 05:26 PM
Good information and very good explanations. Ebenezer, Clifton, and Fightingfalcon, the stuff you all said was so helpful I had to copy and paste it for my own records.

Thanks and God bless.


God Bless you as well, and thank you. ;) Take it easy today, it's Saturday :)

Studyin'2Show
Jan 12th 2008, 05:27 PM
As a Jew and living under the Law of Moses, Jesus would have offered animal sacrifices but we do not follow His example today because Christians are not under the “old law”. If our salvation depended on keeping a certain day “holy” then the NT would have so stated but there is no requirement for us to keep the Sabbath anywhere in its pages. The command to keep the Sabbath holy was only given to the nation of Israel under the Mosaical system which was rendered obsolete at the cross.Who said our salvation depends on keeping a certain day 'holy'? :o Certainly not me! As for the command being limited to Jews, I will continue to point out that Yeshua said it was made FOR MAN, not just Jews. ;) And BTW, an animal sacrifice has been offered for me. The perfect Lamb of God! :ppSo, yes, I will continue to look toward Yeshua to be my example. :D

God Bless!

jiggyfly
Jan 13th 2008, 06:58 PM
John 5:1-23
1 Afterward Jesus returned to Jerusalem for one of the Jewish holy days. 2 Inside the city, near the Sheep Gate, was the pool of Bethesda,* with five covered porches. 3 Crowds of sick people—blind, lame, or paralyzed—lay on the porches.* 5 One of the men lying there had been sick for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him and knew how long he had been ill, he asked him, “Would you like to get well?”
7 “I can’t, sir,” the sick man said, “for I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred up. While I am trying to get there, someone else always gets in ahead of me.”
8 Jesus told him, “Stand up, pick up your sleeping mat, and walk!”
9 Instantly, the man was healed! He rolled up the mat and began walking! But this miracle happened on the Sabbath day. 10 So the Jewish leaders objected. They said to the man who was cured, “You can’t work on the Sabbath! It’s illegal to carry that sleeping mat!”
11 He replied, “The man who healed me said to me, ‘Pick up your sleeping mat and walk.’”
12 “Who said such a thing as that?” they demanded.
13 The man didn’t know, for Jesus had disappeared into the crowd. 14 But afterward Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, “Now you are well; so stop sinning, or something even worse may happen to you.” 15 Then the man went to find the Jewish leaders and told them it was Jesus who had healed him.
16 So the Jewish leaders began harassing Jesus for breaking the Sabbath rules. 17 But Jesus replied, “My Father never stops working, so why should I?” 18 So the Jewish leaders tried all the more to kill him. In addition to disobeying the Sabbath rules, he had spoken of God as his Father, thereby making himself equal with God.
19 Jesus replied, “I assure you, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and tells him everything he is doing, and the Son will do far greater things than healing this man. You will be astonished at what he does. 21 He will even raise from the dead anyone he wants to, just as the Father does. 22 And the Father leaves all judgment to his Son, 23 so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. But if you refuse to honor the Son, then you are certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 13th 2008, 07:31 PM
Thanks for posting this scripture, jiggyfly! It shows how ridiculous the traditions of man had become in this matter. Instead of praising the Living God who had quite obviously healed this man, they focused on the nonsense of him carrying his mat home. If someone would have asked him if he was 'working' as he marveled in the grace of God that healed; I am certain he would have said NO. Of course he was not 'working'. As Yeshua would NEVER have told him to do ANYTHING contrary to the Father's commands. ;)

God Bless!

jiggyfly
Jan 13th 2008, 07:43 PM
Another point is that Jesus said His Father never stops working, so it also shows to refrain from doing work on the sabbath is also man's tradition, don't you think?

Studyin'2Show
Jan 13th 2008, 09:23 PM
Another point is that Jesus said His Father never stops working, so it also shows to refrain from doing work on the sabbath is also man's tradition, don't you think?As I will be continually spiritually 'working' for the kingdom! :D However, as Yeshua has said that the Sabbath was made FOR me, I will enjoy this gift from my Father! ;)

God Bless!

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 13th 2008, 09:39 PM
Another point is that Jesus said His Father never stops working, so it also shows to refrain from doing work on the sabbath is also man's tradition, don't you think?That depends on how you understand what works God does not cease from.
It's good works, in line with the Law. Those are permitted on the sabbath (as on any day) !!!
Why would God go against His own Command that there was no work to be done on the sabbath ?

Does a father/parent who tells the child not to steal, steal himself ? That would make the father/parent a HYPOCRITE!!!!


So you will see that one needs to understand what works Yeshua is referring to that His Father has never stopped working on.

Mat 12:12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

So you see this hardly qualifies as the works of cleaning and conducting business on the sabbath which are works geared to the benefit of oneself, whereas the works Yeshua did (and the Father does) on the sabbath were always geared towards others benefits.

Therein lies the BIG difference.

Shalom,
Tanja

ravi4u2
Jan 13th 2008, 09:46 PM
That depends on how you understand what works God does not cease from.
It's good works, in line with the Law. Those are permitted on the sabbath (as on any day) !!!
Why would God go against His own Command that there was no work to be done on the sabbath ?

Does a father/parent who tells the child not to steal, steal himself ? That would make the father/parent a HYPOCRITE!!!!


So you will see that one needs to understand what works Yeshua is referring to that His Father has never stopped working on.

Mat 12:12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

So you see this hardly qualifies as the works of cleaning and conducting business on the sabbath which are works geared to the benefit of oneself, whereas the works Yeshua did (and the Father does) on the sabbath were always geared towards others benefits.

Therein lies the BIG difference.

Shalom,
TanjaSo, in another words, you are actually saying that you should do good deeds everyday, not just the Sabbath, lest we are hypocrites, as the Father and the Son are always doing good deeds, irrespective of the day.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 13th 2008, 10:04 PM
So, in another words, you are actually saying that you should do good deeds everyday, not just the Sabbath, lest we are hypocrites, as the Father and the Son are always doing good deeds, irrespective of the day.Absolutely! It's so good when we all can agree on something! :lol:

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 13th 2008, 10:19 PM
So, in another words, you are actually saying that you should do good deeds everyday, not just the Sabbath, lest we are hypocrites, as the Father and the Son are always doing good deeds, irrespective of the day.I believe you may be misunderstanding slightly. To illustrate what in your quote i agree with i will bolden the section which should be left out. The hypocrite was in reference to what God would be if He went against His own command to not work on the Sabbath, thereby clarifying what works Yeshua was talking about, when He stated that even the Father was doing works on EVERY day, including the Sabbath.

I can agree with the rest that we should do good deeds on every day, which gives you some leeway what can be done on the sabbath, but does NOT refer to works done for your own desire, sustenance, and pleasure:

Isa 58:13 "If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the LORD honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;

I hope this clarifies what i was trying to say.
Shalom,
Tanja

Studyin'2Show
Jan 13th 2008, 10:36 PM
I disagree that the 'lest we are hypocrites' should be taken out. I believe that the problem with the religious leaders of Yeshua's time, and even many today, is that they did not understand that doing good works was acceptable, thus they WERE hypocrites. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 13th 2008, 10:43 PM
S2S, the point is i was never talking about the pharisees in my post, i was talking about God's command not to do any work on the sabbath, meaning not to do work geared towards self preservation, business, and cooking and such things.
I was trying to convey, that claiming that God had done away with the Sabbath because even He had been working since the foundation of the earth, and to equate His works with the works he forbade is making a big mistake. I was saying that God would be a HYOPOCRITE if He went against His own command working on the Sabbath. So therefore i was pointing out that the works God does on the sabbath must be different than the works He forbade to do.

But alas, if i cannot be understood maybe i need to attend a writing 101 seminar.

Shalom,
Tanja

Clifton
Jan 13th 2008, 10:49 PM
Well, we do know that YHWH Rested on the seventh day after creating the heavens and the earth, thus, He made it Holy (thus, the reason it is properly called the "Holy Sabbath", or "Bible Sabbath" - those of lawlessness gives it other names, but YHWH Calls it "Holy").

YHWH does have Angels doing things ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 13th 2008, 10:57 PM
It helps to pay attention to the verb that indicates action: God made it holy. This is still work, but it's good work, He made it Holy for us, for man.

These are the works that are allowed on the sabbath, works that benefit others, practicing love and doing things for others. If i wanted to till the ground to grow food on the sabbath i'd be in violation, but if i helped a neighbor dig up something he might have lost than that would be allowed. Maybe that's a bad example, but it proves the point that we are not to be self serving on the Sabbath. Yeshua was never self serving, hence He is Lord of the Sabbath.

Shalom,
Tanja

Clifton
Jan 13th 2008, 11:20 PM
Clifton,

Pay attention to the verb that indicates action: God made it holy. This is still work, but it's good work, He made it Holy for us, for man.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention - which verse are you speaking of? I was, sorta, conveying another place:
Exodus 16:23 And he said to them, This is that which YHWH has said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto YHWH: bake that which you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and that which remains over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. (KJBPNV)


I also note that besides being holy to YHWH, it is holy to us as well, thus saith HaShem. ;)


These are the works that are allowed on the sabbath, works that benefit others, practicing love and doing things for others. If i wanted to till the ground to grow food on the sabbath iäd be in violation, but if i helped a neighbor dig up something he might have lost than that would be allowed. Maybe that's a bad example, but it proves the point that we are not to be self serving on the Sabbath. Yeshua was never self serving, hence He is Lord of the Sabbath.

Shalom,
Tanja

I don't think it is a bad example - actually, Matthew 12:1-12 covers this issue pretty good (though in one area of the discussion Y'Shua talks about David doing something on the Sabbath). Here's the clip that corresponds fairly well with your example:

Matthew 12:11 But He said to them, What man of you will be who will have one sheep, and if this one fall into a pit on the sabbaths, will he not lay hold of it and raise it up?
Matthew 12:12 How much more, then, does a man excel a sheep! So that it is lawful to do well on the sabbaths. (LITV)

;)

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 13th 2008, 11:31 PM
Clifton :hug:

Thank you for taking my post in the positive way.

The snippet i was referring to is this:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

It is also interesting to note that the command is 2 fold, to work and labor 6 days, and then to rest on the 7th.

IOW we labor 6 days to meet all the demands and needs of living in this fallen world, and on the 7th we "rest" not from His works, but from ours.

Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

Shalom,
Tanja

ravi4u2
Jan 14th 2008, 12:00 AM
Well, we do know that YHWH Rested on the seventh day after creating the heavens and the earth, thus, He made it Holy (thus, the reason it is properly called the "Holy Sabbath", or "Bible Sabbath" - those of lawlessness gives it other names, but YHWH Calls it "Holy").

YHWH does have Angels doing things ;)Well, I guess you are right there... it takes a law'less' but faith'ful' one to realise that Christ is the substance of the shadow, Sabbath.;)

brakelite
Jan 14th 2008, 12:02 AM
Please explain how a 'shadow of things to come', as in Coll, can in any way be applicable to the weekly sabbath, which is a memorial of things past???
The yearly sabbaths that pertained to the sanctuary services, yes, they were shadows of things to come. It was those sabbaths that Paul was referring to. It was those yearly or annual sabbaths that were nailed to the cross. Type had met antitype, shadow had met substance.

The memorial still stands. It stands just as holy, just as sanctified, just as honourable as the day it was instituted. And nowhere in scripture does it state otherwise.
Brakelite

brakelite
Jan 14th 2008, 12:05 AM
Oh, and just as an adendum;
because the day is already holy, that is why we are reminded to keep it holy.
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, six days thou shalt do thy work, but...."

ravi4u2
Jan 14th 2008, 12:16 AM
The yearly sabbaths that pertained to the sanctuary services, yes, they were shadows of things to come. It was those sabbaths that Paul was referring to. It was those yearly or annual sabbaths that were nailed to the cross. Type had met antitype, shadow had met substance.That is your own insertions. Here is what Paul actually said, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."

Clifton
Jan 14th 2008, 12:29 AM
Please explain how a 'shadow of things to come', as in Coll, can in any way be applicable to the weekly sabbath, which is a memorial of things past???
The yearly sabbaths that pertained to the sanctuary services, yes, they were shadows of things to come. It was those sabbaths that Paul was referring to. It was those yearly or annual sabbaths that were nailed to the cross. Type had met antitype, shadow had met substance.

The memorial still stands. It stands just as holy, just as sanctified, just as honourable as the day it was instituted. And nowhere in scripture does it state otherwise.
Brakelite

What passage are you referring to? Sounds like a place where the Greek may not boogie too well into English. I think perhaps, it may be conveyed, "shadow of coming things (PRESENT TENSE)";

Also, let us remember that a "shadow" requires an object/etc. of some sort - no object, no shadow; no tree, no shade ;).

Yes, as far as we know, there is NO evidence that Christ EVER said anything about doing away with the Sabbath, and of course, would not.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 01:27 AM
I always come back to the fact that the Father told us to 'remember' the Sabbath. He knows the end from the beginning and of course knew that it would be forgotten.

Ravi, that passage in Colossians is why I do not let anyone judge me because I keep Sabbath or in how I keep Sabbath or the feasts. :D Ironically, I have had Jews judge me BECAUSE I keep it which has given me a different perspective of this scripture. If it happened to me in the 21st century, I am positive that it happened to first century believers. Jews judging how they observed the feasts and Sabbaths, making them feel they were doing it wrong because they were not following stale old traditions that don't line up with scripture. I actually had a non-observant Jew berate me for having butter on my Passover table. At first I wondered if I had misstepped, so I took my concern to the Father and was put at peace. There is no scripture that tells us we are to not eat dairy and meat together. That is a law of man. Yet it was used to make me feel inadequate in my observance. How many first century Gentiles may have had similar experiences? So much so that Paul wrote and told them not to let anyone judge them in food or drink (butter, cheese, milk, with meat) in regards to festivals or Sabbaths. I hear Paul telling them in this passage, "Just observe them based on what scripture says, not based on man's traditions." But I guess that's because of my personal experience. ;)

God Bless!

jiggyfly
Jan 14th 2008, 03:55 AM
That depends on how you understand what works God does not cease from.
It's good works, in line with the Law. Those are permitted on the sabbath (as on any day) !!!
Why would God go against His own Command that there was no work to be done on the sabbath ?

Does a father/parent who tells the child not to steal, steal himself ? That would make the father/parent a HYPOCRITE!!!!


So you will see that one needs to understand what works Yeshua is referring to that His Father has never stopped working on.

Mat 12:12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

So you see this hardly qualifies as the works of cleaning and conducting business on the sabbath which are works geared to the benefit of oneself, whereas the works Yeshua did (and the Father does) on the sabbath were always geared towards others benefits.

Therein lies the BIG difference.

Shalom,
Tanja

So what kind of work would you classify "take up your bed" under?

ravi4u2
Jan 14th 2008, 04:09 AM
I always come back to the fact that the Father told us to 'remember' the Sabbath. He knows the end from the beginning and of course knew that it would be forgotten.

Ravi, that passage in Colossians is why I do not let anyone judge me because I keep Sabbath or in how I keep Sabbath or the feasts. :D Ironically, I have had Jews judge me BECAUSE I keep it which has given me a different perspective of this scripture. If it happened to me in the 21st century, I am positive that it happened to first century believers. Jews judging how they observed the feasts and Sabbaths, making them feel they were doing it wrong because they were not following stale old traditions that don't line up with scripture. I actually had a non-observant Jew berate me for having butter on my Passover table. At first I wondered if I had misstepped, so I took my concern to the Father and was put at peace. There is no scripture that tells us we are to not eat dairy and meat together. That is a law of man. Yet it was used to make me feel inadequate in my observance. How many first century Gentiles may have had similar experiences? So much so that Paul wrote and told them not to let anyone judge them in food or drink (butter, cheese, milk, with meat) in regards to festivals or Sabbaths. I hear Paul telling them in this passage, "Just observe them based on what scripture says, not based on man's traditions." But I guess that's because of my personal experience. ;)

God Bless!But that is trying to second guess what scripture says by your personal experience. No one can fault you for your personal convictions. They are just that, 'personal'. And your discerner is the Spirit of God. I would rather led the Word speak plainly, without trying to interject our own personal interpretations on them.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 14th 2008, 05:49 AM
So what kind of work would you classify "take up your bed" under?

Well aside from the fact that Yeshua told him to pick up his bed and go, the man was following the Word of God telling him to do so. The bed itself surely was not like a huge bunk bed, or even some sort of sturdy bulky structure.

More than likely it was a mat of some sort, or maybe blankets fashioned into some sort of cot.
Is it work to roll something like that up, and put it on your shoulders and take it home ? Only the Pharisees would condem such a thing having made stringent, burdensome regulations, on how much something could weigh before one was in violation of working on the Sabbath. This clearly is man made law, and this is burdensome, and worse it isn't God's Word.

So i do not believe this man was in violation of breaking the Sabbath, and would it have been so, then Yeshua would not have told him to pick up his bad and carry it home.
One should also consider that the man being a cripple likely had nothing much as his own property, this bed, was probably all he had to call his own. Only the Pharisees would be so coldhearted as to tell him after he was healed to forfeit what may have constituted his only belongings.




Shalom,
Tanja

jiggyfly
Jan 14th 2008, 12:30 PM
Well aside from the fact that Yeshua told him to pick up his bed and go, the man was following the Word of God telling him to do so. The bed itself surely was not like a huge bunk bed, or even some sort of sturdy bulky structure.

More than likely it was a mat of some sort, or maybe blankets fashioned into some sort of cot.
Is it work to roll something like that up, and put it on your shoulders and take it home ? Only the Pharisees would condem such a thing having made stringent, burdensome regulations, on how much something could weigh before one was in violation of working on the Sabbath. This clearly is man made law, and this is burdensome, and worse it isn't God's Word.

So i do not believe this man was in violation of breaking the Sabbath, and would it have been so, then Yeshua would not have told him to pick up his bad and carry it home.
One should also consider that the man being a cripple likely had nothing much as his own property, this bed, was probably all he had to call his own. Only the Pharisees would be so coldhearted as to tell him after he was healed to forfeit what may have constituted his only belongings.




Shalom,
Tanja

Thanks for the response, so then would you say that picking up a bed is much easier than picking up bread?

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 12:32 PM
But that is trying to second guess what scripture says by your personal experience. No one can fault you for your personal convictions. They are just that, 'personal'. And your discerner is the Spirit of God. I would rather led the Word speak plainly, without trying to interject our own personal interpretations on them.I beg to differ. I am looking at the exact words - Don't let anyone judge you according to food and drink, or regarding festivals, new moons and Sabbaths. So, why should I let anyone judge me according to those things? You and others are assuming that he is talking to people about those telling them they have to observe Sabbath. I believe he is talking about people who are trying to continue the old (non-biblical) regulations; the traditions of men, that Yeshua rebuked the religious leaders concerning. So, I am absolutely going by what it says but not making the same assumption that you are, One thing I ALWAYS put first is the Word of God; that is our final authority in all things, so I would never second guess the word. What I will not do is just accept the status quo just because of tradition. Isn't that where the Jews went wrong, following tradition just because it was tradition and not because of the word of God. I just understand it differently than you. But either way, we should not let anyone judge us on this matter, which is why I don't judge my brothers and sisters who interpret it differently than I. :D

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 12:55 PM
Thanks for the response, so then would you say that picking up a bed is much easier than picking up bread?So, what of taking care of a few children? As a mother of three, I can absolutely tell you that can be considered REAL work. But is it really? BTW, the command not to pick up the manna was not about the amount of effort. It was about trusting God and being obedient to His command in the desert. The point is that each of us knows what 'work' is. Is it work to go to the beach to have fun with your family? What if you carry a cooler? Or a large umbrella? I don't know about you but none of those things would be 'work' for me and IMO it is nonsense to even consider them so. Yet, even today many orthodox will not pick up the telephone to make a phone call. Because it is 'work'? Please! :rolleyes: They have misinterpreted God's command just as the religious leaders in the first century had done. Which do you think happened, did Yeshua tell the man to pick up his bed because it was not really work and He wanted to challenge the leaders who had made such things into a sin? Or do you think that God the Son told the man to pick up his bed because He wanted the man to disobey God the Father? Before you answer, remember that most believe that the Law was in effect until the cross (not my view but it is the majority opinion). I believe it was the former, not the latter. ;) Yeshua is not the Author of disobedience!

God Bless!

jiggyfly
Jan 14th 2008, 01:24 PM
So, what of taking care of a few children? As a mother of three, I can absolutely tell you that can be considered REAL work. But is it really? BTW, the command not to pick up the manna was not about the amount of effort. It was about trusting God and being obedient to His command in the dessert. The point is that each of us knows what 'work' is. Is it work to go to the beach to have fun with your family? What if you carry a cooler? Or a large umbrella? I don't know about you but none of those things would be 'work' for me and IMO it is nonsense to even consider them so. Yet, even today many orthodox will not pick up the telephone to make a phone call. Because it is 'work'? Please! :rolleyes: They have misinterpreted God's command just as the religious leaders in the first century had done. Which do you think happened, did Yeshua tell the man to pick up his bed because it was not really work and He wanted to challenge the leader who had made such things into a sin? Or do you think that God the Son told the man to pick up his bed because He wanted the man to disobey God the Father? Before you answer, remember that most believe that the Law was in effect until the cross (not my view but it is the majority opinion). I believe it was the former, not the latter. ;) Yeshua is not the Author of disobedience!

God Bless!
Is cooking and preparing a meal work?
I personally think that the majority of the Christian religion misinterpret the scriptures because of religious paradigm. God's ways are not our ways, even when we study His ways day and night and try to incorporate them into our behavior and this has been proven all throughout man's history. Thus Paul's response in his letter to the believers at Ephesus.
Ephesians 3:14-21
14 When I think of the wisdom and scope of God’s plan, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father,* 15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. 16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will give you mighty inner strength through his Holy Spirit. 17 And I pray that Christ will be more and more at home in your hearts as you trust in him. May your roots go down deep into the soil of God’s marvelous love. 18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love really is. 19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is so great you will never fully understand it. Then you will be filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God.
20 Now glory be to God! By his mighty power at work within us, he is able to accomplish infinitely more than we would ever dare to ask or hope. 21 May he be given glory in the church and in Christ Jesus forever and ever through endless ages. Amen.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 01:52 PM
You didn't respond to the one question I had. What was Yeshua's motivation for telling the man to pick up his bed? Was it to get him to disobey the Father?

As for cooking, my household consist of 9 people :o, so yes, it is work for me! :lol: In my household, we have cereal or something each person can throw in the microwave (no I don't consider the microwave work) for Saturday breakfast, and lots of sandwich makings so each one can throw something together for lunch. Then my hubby goes out and buys something (ie Chinese, pizza, chicken) after Sabbath is over, because he loves me so much that he wants to give my mother and I a day where we don't have to work to feed the family. :)

I absolutely agree that His ways are high above our ways and join you in prayer that we all can come to a greater understanding of His will! :)

God Bless!

jiggyfly
Jan 14th 2008, 02:12 PM
You didn't respond to the one question I had. What was Yeshua's motivation for telling the man to pick up his bed? Was it to get him to disobey the Father?

As for cooking, my household consist of 9 people :o, so yes, it is work for me! :lol: In my household, we have cereal or something each person can throw in the microwave (no I don't consider the microwave work) for Saturday breakfast, and lots of sandwich makings so each one can throw something together for lunch. Then my hubby goes out and buys something (ie Chinese, pizza, chicken) after Sabbath is over, because he loves me so much that he wants to give my mother and I a day where we don't have to work to feed the family. :)

I absolutely agree that His ways are high above our ways and join you in prayer that we all can come to a greater understanding of His will! :)

God Bless!

Jesus has always been completely obedient to Father and I am sure He would never lead anyone let alone command anyone to disobey. So we must not have a proper understanding of Father's will, then and now.

jiggyfly
Jan 14th 2008, 02:17 PM
You didn't respond to the one question I had. What was Yeshua's motivation for telling the man to pick up his bed? Was it to get him to disobey the Father?

As for cooking, my household consist of 9 people :o, so yes, it is work for me! :lol: In my household, we have cereal or something each person can throw in the microwave (no I don't consider the microwave work) for Saturday breakfast, and lots of sandwich makings so each one can throw something together for lunch. Then my hubby goes out and buys something (ie Chinese, pizza, chicken) after Sabbath is over, because he loves me so much that he wants to give my mother and I a day where we don't have to work to feed the family. :)

I absolutely agree that His ways are high above our ways and join you in prayer that we all can come to a greater understanding of His will! :)

God Bless!

As for me I like cooking and it relaxes me especially when the family is over for dinner ( around 16-18 usually) on Satuday so am I being disobedient?

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 14th 2008, 02:19 PM
Jiggyfly,

One has to understand and know what God qualifies as work on the Sabbath that is forbidden.

I will repeat a previous post to clarify it for you, as you may have missed it. You can either really think about what i'm saying it or dismiss it outright:





Another point is that Jesus said His Father never stops working, so it also shows to refrain from doing work on the sabbath is also man's tradition, don't you think?That depends on how you understand what works God does not cease from.
It's good works, in line with the Law. Those are permitted on the sabbath (as on any day) !!!
Why would God go against His own Command that there was no work to be done on the sabbath ?

Does a father/parent who tells the child not to steal, steal himself ? That would make the father/parent a HYPOCRITE!!!!


So you will see that one needs to understand what works Yeshua is referring to that His Father has never stopped working on.

Mat 12:12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

So you see this hardly qualifies as the works of cleaning and conducting business on the sabbath which are works geared to the benefit of oneself, whereas the works Yeshua did (and the Father does) on the sabbath were always geared towards others benefits.

Therein lies the BIG difference.This goes perfectly in line with the following scripture regarding the Sabbath:

Isa 58:13 If you refrain from trampling the sabbath, from pursuing your own interests on my holy day; if you call the sabbath a delight and the holy day of the Lord honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, serving your own interests, or pursuing your own affairs;
Isa 58:14 then you shall take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride upon the heights of the earth; I will feed you with the heritage of your ancestor Jacob, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

The ESV has it this way:

Isa 58:13 "If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the LORD honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;

So you can see that the works on the sabbath which are forbidden are the self- serving, self-preserving, etc, anything geared to please yourself.

Remeember Yeshua called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath? Why do you think that is? Because he came to serve, to show us how to be humble, instead of self seeking, lowly, instead of selfish, etc.


These are the works that are allowed on the sabbath, works that benefit others, practicing love and doing things for others. If i wanted to till the ground to grow food on the sabbath iäd be in violation, but if i helped a neighbor dig up something he might have lost than that would be allowed. Maybe that's a bad example, but it proves the point that we are not to be self serving on the Sabbath. Yeshua was never self serving, hence He is Lord of the Sabbath.



Yes, we should be this way every day, BUT, God created a special day set aside for us, where we are supposed to cease to be self seeking and self serving completely, and totally rely on Him. Yeshua devoted that day to much healing, restoring, and fellowshipping. It still is a picture of a perfect time to come....You see, this is the only time we fully rely on God for His provision, as we are commanded to labor 6 days, and rest on the seventh. Being in this fallen world has thrown us into the necessity of providing our own means to get by, not like it was for Adam and Eve before the fall. This again doesn't negate that we can and should be largely unselfish on all days of the week. But try being unselfish for the whole week, not giving any thought to your own needs for a whole week! Try following Isaiah 58:13 to the "T" for a whole week!!! It's plain and simple impossible in this fallen world. Hence God gave us the Sabbath wherein we can experience one day of perfection and holiness in God.


You have no idea how liberating and freeing this was when the Holy Spirit showed me what God considers work on the Sabbath, and what not.

Shalom,
Tanja

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 02:20 PM
Jesus has always been completely obedient to Father and I am sure He would never lead anyone let alone command anyone to disobey. So we must not have a proper understanding of Father's will, then and now.We are in complete agreement on this point! :D

jiggyfly
Jan 14th 2008, 02:31 PM
Jiggyfly,

One has to understand and know what God qualifies as work on the Sabbath that is forbidden.

I will repeat a previous post to clarify it for you, as you may have missed it. You can either really think about what i'm saying it or dismiss it outright:


This goes perfectly in line with the following scripture regarding the Sabbath:

Isa 58:13 If you refrain from trampling the sabbath, from pursuing your own interests on my holy day; if you call the sabbath a delight and the holy day of the Lord honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, serving your own interests, or pursuing your own affairs;
Isa 58:14 then you shall take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride upon the heights of the earth; I will feed you with the heritage of your ancestor Jacob, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

The ESV has it this way:

Isa 58:13 "If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the LORD honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;

So you can see that the works on the sabbath which are forbidden are the self- serving, self-preserving, etc, anything geared to please yourself.

Remeember Yeshua called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath? Why do you think that is? Because he came to serve, to show us how to be humble, instead of self seeking, lowly, instead of selfish, etc.



Yes, we should be this way every day, BUT, God created a special day set aside for us, where we are supposed to cease to be self seeking and self serving completely, and totally rely on Him. Yeshua devoted that day to much healing, restoring, and fellowshipping. It still is a picture of a perfect time to come....You see, this is the only time we fully rely on God for His provision, as we are commanded to labor 6 days, and rest on the seventh. Being in this fallen world has thrown us into the necessity of providing our own means to get by, not like it was for Adam and Eve before the fall. This again doesn't negate that we can and should be largely unselfish on all days of the week. But try being unselfish for the whole week, it's plain and simple impossible in this fallen world. Hence God gave us the Sabbath wherein we can experience one day of perfection and holiness in God.


You have no idea how liberating and freeing this was when the Holy Spirit showed me what God considers work on the Sabbath, and what not.

Shalom,
Tanja

Thats great if you want to do that as for me I choose not to esteem one day above another which includes the old covenant practice of keeping the sabbath.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 14th 2008, 03:03 PM
I see the command to observe the Sabbath in the NT scriptures as much as i saw it in the Old. I chose to do what God has placed upon my heart to do.

Since it is clear that you're set in your mind as i am about the Sabbath, i will foreego another endless debate with you about these matters.

Shalom,
Tanja

ravi4u2
Jan 14th 2008, 04:11 PM
I beg to differ. I am looking at the exact words - Don't let anyone judge you according to food and drink, or regarding festivals, new moons and Sabbaths. So, why should I let anyone judge me according to those things? You and others are assuming that he is talking to people about those telling them they have to observe Sabbath. I believe he is talking about people who are trying to continue the old (non-biblical) regulations; the traditions of men, that Yeshua rebuked the religious leaders concerning. So, I am absolutely going by what it says but not making the same assumption that you are, One thing I ALWAYS put first is the Word of God; that is our final authority in all things, so I would never second guess the word. What I will not do is just accept the status quo just because of tradition. Isn't that where the Jews went wrong, following tradition just because it was tradition and not because of the word of God. I just understand it differently than you. But either way, we should not let anyone judge us on this matter, which is why I don't judge my brothers and sisters who interpret it differently than I. :D

God Bless!I beg to differ. I am looking at the exact words - Don't let anyone judge you according to food and drink, or regarding festivals, new moons and Sabbaths. So, why should I let anyone judge me according to those things? You and others are assuming that he is talking about people who are trying to continue the old (non-biblical) regulations; the traditions of men, that Yeshua rebuked the religious leaders concerning. I believe he is talking to people about those telling them they have to observe Sabbath. So, I am absolutely going by what it says but not making the same assumption that you are, One thing I ALWAYS put first is the Word of God; that is our final authority in all things, so I would never second guess the word. What I will not do is just accept the status quo just because of tradition. Isn't that where the Jews went wrong, following tradition just because it was tradition and not because of the word of God. I just understand it differently than you. But either way, we should not let anyone judge us on this matter, which is why I don't judge my brothers and sisters who interpret it differently than I.:D

God bless!

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 14th 2008, 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
I beg to differ. I am looking at the exact words - Don't let anyone judge you according to food and drink, or regarding festivals, new moons and Sabbaths. So, why should I let anyone judge me according to those things? You and others are assuming that he is talking to people about those telling them they have to observe Sabbath. I believe he is talking about people who are trying to continue the old (non-biblical) regulations; the traditions of men, that Yeshua rebuked the religious leaders concerning. So, I am absolutely going by what it says but not making the same assumption that you are, One thing I ALWAYS put first is the Word of God; that is our final authority in all things, so I would never second guess the word. What I will not do is just accept the status quo just because of tradition. Isn't that where the Jews went wrong, following tradition just because it was tradition and not because of the word of God. I just understand it differently than you. But either way, we should not let anyone judge us on this matter, which is why I don't judge my brothers and sisters who interpret it differently than I.
God Bless!
I beg to differ. I am looking at the exact words - Don't let anyone judge you according to food and drink, or regarding festivals, new moons and Sabbaths. So, why should I let anyone judge me according to those things? You and others are assuming that he is talking about people who are trying to continue the old (non-biblical) regulations; the traditions of men, that Yeshua rebuked the religious leaders concerning. I believe he is talking to people about those telling them they have to observe Sabbath. So, I am absolutely going by what it says but not making the same assumption that you are, One thing I ALWAYS put first is the Word of God; that is our final authority in all things, so I would never second guess the word. What I will not do is just accept the status quo just because of tradition. Isn't that where the Jews went wrong, following tradition just because it was tradition and not because of the word of God. I just understand it differently than you. But either way, we should not let anyone judge us on this matter, which is why I don't judge my brothers and sisters who interpret it differently than I.Ravi, i would agree with your idea, and understanding, had it not been for the fact that early Christians in the times of the apostles did observe the Sabbath and such feasts and festivals, and also food laws, as can be found in historical writings, and such. Heck a careful reading of the apostolic scriptures itself bears witness to this.

Therefore i concur with what Studying had to say. It's easy to read the text with the understanding you have of it when the historical context has been lost, blotted out by time.
Reading some of the early church father's writings especially the likes of Ignatius, and Trypho makes it clear that they were trying to sway people away from these observances.

Shalom,
Tanja

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 04:45 PM
Yep! Sometimes it's not what you say but HOW you say it, huh? :lol: This was exactly the point. :D Motivation is key. Do you believe Yeshua's motivation was to encourage the man He'd healed to disobey the Father? Or that He intended to correct an improper interpretation of God's command? If it was His intent to correct a misinterpretation, do you recognize that command may still be misinterpreted? :hmm:

God Bless!

Clifton
Jan 14th 2008, 05:12 PM
Ravi, i would agree with your idea, and understanding, had it not been for the fact that early Christians in the times of the apostles did observe the Sabbath and such feasts and festivals, and also food laws, as can be found in historical writings, and such. Heck a careful reading of the apostolic scriptures itself bears witness to this.

Therefore i concur with what Studying had to say. It's easy to read the text with the understanding you have of it when the historical context has been lost, blotted out by time.
Reading some of the early church father's writings especially the likes of Ignatius, and Trypho makes it clear that they were trying to sway people away from these observances.

Shalom,
Tanja

As for as we have known, Ignatius was the initial instigator (in 98 C.E.) against the Torah, and he fulfilled the words of Paul in Acts 20:28-30 precisely, where Paul seems to indicate that after his death leaders would begin to rise up from the overseers in his stead that would draw people to follow themselves and draw them away from Torah.

Ignatius was an USURPER (meaning, taken authority where one that does not have the rights, and is not technically, a true "official").

Early writings, such as the various letters that Ignatius wrote, substantiate the validity of warnings that were given, but OTOH, there are valued for their antiquity, as well as readings (though they may have been "selective") in scriptures. Since Early writers were not all in agreement, it stands to reason, that one or more of them had erred in some things - unfortunately, those that erred started fires that are not diminished, and have even grown and spreaded - but fortunately, Marcion was too erroneous, so his erratics are pretty much been diminished.

The letters of Ignatius came out in English in the 19th Century I think, but is also available from a 1927 publication, "[B]The Lost Books Of The Bible", which also included "The Forgotten Books Of Eden". I got it back in 1987. The readings are interesting - I particularly liked the Books Of Adam And Eve, The Secrets Of Enoch, and Nicodemus . I would not say that ALL of it represents errors, or that everything in them are errors - all heresies borrow a lot of valid things, importing them into their own doctrines.

"The Lost Books Of The Bible" are also called "NTApc" (Apocrypha) in my Online Bible Software, which is a "user-choiced" "add-on" module.

Ignatius is not "solely" responsible for anti-law, or at least, where the Sabbath is concerned - "non-Roman (as it is so termed) Christians / Messianics" continued throughout the centuries observing the Sabbath. There is evidence of this in the 5th century as well, despite Constantine;

Others had later also either fell into "the Ignatius Conspiracy", or changed it to Sunday, to oppose the "legalistic twists" that, despite Christ opposing them, certain Sects were still imposing on others (this is about late 2nd Century as I recall), such as "don't step on the grass" (I ASSUME they are not referring to Marijuana:lol:)

For more info on the Ignatius Conspiracy, an article by James Scott Trimm is posted on a "Jewish Messianic" web page, at the Hebrew-Roots site (http://www.hebrew-roots.com/html/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=97).
"While Constantine certainly added to the apostasy of early Christianity, he was not the first." - IOW, it appears he "validated" some of those errs as legit and imported them (and paganisms) in a political manner, where was his motives anyway, so they say.

brakelite
Jan 14th 2008, 08:55 PM
Paul was referring to the sabbaths which were a shadow of things to come. As you quoted (Coll2:16,17) and with which I agree. But he is not referring to the sabbaths which were not a shadow. Again I ask, how can a memorial be a shadow of something to come?
Brakelite

brakelite
Jan 14th 2008, 09:24 PM
There is evidence that the church of the east were observers of the 7th day sabbath, as well as the Ethiopian church (possibly up to the 14th century), and the celtic churches , in some cases up to the 7th or 8th centuries.

Just to add a little history:
Emperor Constantine’s famous Sunday law is well known. It was given on
March 7, A. D. 321: “Let all the judges and town people, and the
occupation of all trades, rest on the venerable day of the sun; but let those
who are situated in the country, freely and at full liberty attend to the
business of agriculture, because it often happens that no other day is so fit
for sowing corn and planting vines; lest the critical moment being let slip,
men should lose the commodities granted by heaven. Given the seventh
day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls, each of them for the
second time.” Corpus Juris Civilis 2.127, quoted in, Henry Bettenson, ed.,
Documents of the Christian Church, 2nd edition (London: Oxford
University Press, 1963).
It must be remembered that this decree was proclaimed by the civil power.
It was not a decree given by the church. However, the church would soon
put itself officially on the record as a strong supporter of this decree.
This decree of Constantine is preserved with some slight modifications in
the Code of Justinian: “All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall
rest upon the venerable Day of the Sun. Country people, however, may
freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens
that no other days are better adapted for planting grain in the furrows or the
vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may
not for the occasion of a short time perish.” Code of Justinian, b. 3, title
12,3; translated in Ayer’s Source Book for Ancient Church History, item
59 (g).
It will be noticed that this decree did not forbid Sabbath worship. That was
still to come.
It was at the Council of Laodicea [celebrated sometime between 343 and
381 A. D.], that the Church put itself on the record as enjoining Sunday
worship and forbidding Sabbath worship. Canon 29 of this Council reads as
follows: “Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Greek
sabbaton, the Sabbath] but shall work on that day, but the Lord’s day
[Sunday] they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if
possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing,
they shall be shut out from Christ.” (Translated in, Charles Joseph Hefele,
A History of the Christian Councils, vol. 2,
As the centuries passed, the Sabbath was pressed lower and lower and the
Sunday was exalted higher and higher.Here is a statement by St.
Thomas Aquinas, a theologian unparalleled in the history of the Roman
Catholic Church: “In the New Law the keeping of the Sunday supplants
that of the Sabbath, not in virtue of the precept of the law, but through
determination by the church and the custom of the Christian people.”
(Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas, quoted in The Sabbath in
Scripture and History, pp. 205-206). Bold is mine.

Regards
Brakelite

ravi4u2
Jan 14th 2008, 10:51 PM
Yep! Sometimes it's not what you say but HOW you say it, huh? :lol: This was exactly the point. :D Motivation is key. Do you believe Yeshua's motivation was to encourage the man He'd healed to disobey the Father? Or that He intended to correct an improper interpretation of God's command? If it was His intent to correct a misinterpretation, do you recognize that command may still be misinterpreted? :hmm:

God Bless!Neither, He performed that miracle to make a statement, to say that the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath. :pp All inspired scripture is of God. And if it is inspired of God in your heart, then, there is no room for misinterpretation.

ravi4u2
Jan 14th 2008, 10:55 PM
Paul was referring to the sabbaths which were a shadow of things to come. As you quoted (Coll2:16,17) and with which I agree. But he is not referring to the sabbaths which were not a shadow. Again I ask, how can a memorial be a shadow of something to come?
BrakeliteThere was a special sabbath celebrated by the Hebrews, which was a memorial. It was celebrated on the seventh month, on the first day of the month. Not all the sabbath were memorials. The Sabbath was the shadow of the rest, the rest that is now available not just once a week, but 24/7 in Christ Jesus.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 11:53 PM
Neither, He performed that miracle to make a statement, to say that the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath. :pp All inspired scripture is of God. And if it is inspired of God in your heart, then, there is no room for misinterpretation.Well, I guess we'll find out in glory, my friend. And BTW, there are too many spirit-filled believers that have different interpretations on different things so I believe it's evident that no one believer is perfect regarding interpretation. There are people in my personal (non-cyberspace) life that I absolutely am confident are filled with the Holy Spirit, that don't agree with each other on every scriptural point. There are people in my online life that I am fairly confident are led by the Holy Spirit (you are one of them ;)) yet they do not all agree on every scriptural point. How can this be explained accept that all can not be ALL right on ALL interpretation? If we deny the possibility for misinterpretation on our part, we open the door to the enemy to attack us in our own arrogance. Remember, the Pharisees THOUGHT they had all interpretation figured out....and they didn't!

I will be the first to say that I don't not have scripture perfected. There are some areas where God has not yet given me special revelation. End times prophecy is an area that I have studied but that there is still a great deal to be revealed. Is it your understanding that because someone has submitted to Yeshua and been filled with the Holy Spirit that they will have all interpretation on every piece of scripture? If so, why are we exhorted to study to show ourselves approved? :hmm:

God bless my friend!

losthorizon
Jan 15th 2008, 12:06 AM
Some open questions for the “Sabbath-keeping” thread. When one becomes a member of the Seventh-Day Adventist church he/she must sign a “profession of faith” that includes the following article of faith:
"I accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians, and it is my purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ, to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord."Questions - (1) Is the SDA church following the teaching of the New Testament when they require new converts (both Jew and Gentile) to “keep” the fourth commandment (keep the Sabbath) as an article of faith or is “a man…justified by faith without the deeds of the law…”? (2) Are Gentiles ever commanded to keep the Sabbath anywhere in either the OT or the NT? (3) When Paul stated - "Let no man judge you therefore in meat, or drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of Sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come" (Col. 2:14), does this mean - as a Christian - that I have the freedom “in Christ Jesus” to choose to keep the Sabbath or to choose not keep the Sabbath as my conscience dictates? (4) Did the children of Israel have this same freedom under the Law of Moses to keep or to not keep the Sabbath or could they be put to death for failing to keep the fourth commandment?
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron and unto all the congregation.... And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp (Num. 15:32-33,35).

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1-2)

brakelite
Jan 15th 2008, 12:28 AM
I dont know what particular sabbath you are alluding to but the weekly sabbath is a memorial of creation. It was instituted before sin. The annual sabbaths were intstituted because of sin. Jesus fulfilled these aannual sabbaths. There was nothing in the weekly sabbath to fulfil. It is merely a day whereby we cease from our own works and focus our thoughts and time on the Lord. It is a day God Himself blessed, sanctified and made holy. To claim any other day or days or none at all simply doesn't wash: God hsan't transferred the solemnity, so how can we? And to claim Jesus is now our rest rather than the sabbath is a man- made invention for it is found nowhere in scripture.Spiritually we are to rest from our own works and trust in the saving work of Christ, yes, but why or how does this take away from God's instruction to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy?"
Brakelite

brakelite
Jan 15th 2008, 12:48 AM
Hi.
As a Christian do you beleive you have the freedom to disobey the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th or any other commandment? Sure, endeavouring to keeping all the ten commandments by the grace and power of God is a requisite to becoming a member of our church, and seeing we are 7th day adventists it follows that we are going to pay special attention to that part of the law. Probably because it is such an issue with everybody else. Just read this thread. But in your church, are you expected to live your life according to the dictates laid down by the word of God? If someone had started the thread reading "should we steal", somehow I dont think there would be so much debate. But the sabbath? Well, there seems to be something of a resistence to that commandment. I suppose when we get to heaven and see the original commandments written by God, we can count them, to see if there are 9 or 10.
I was happy to sign that form. The sabbath had become an integral part of my Christian walk--something I cherished and looked forward to every week. Should I not seek the fellowship of like minded people and commit myself to the same?
Oh, and of course, absolutely, you do have the freedom to choose not to keep the sabbath. Or any commandment. But how long would God suffer you to do so? How long would your church suffer you openly disobeying the commandment against adultery?
Brakelite

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 12:50 AM
losthorizon, I don't know if anyone here is SDA. :hmm: I know I'm not! But no, I haven't had to sign any contract with anyone, nor would I expect anyone to sign a contract with me. :D I attend a house fellowship here in South Florida and not everyone who fellowships with us keeps Sabbath, so no it's not a requirement! :lol:

God Bless!

ravi4u2
Jan 15th 2008, 12:58 AM
Well, I guess we'll find out in glory, my friend. And BTW, there are too many spirit-filled believers that have different interpretations on different things so I believe it's evident that no one believer is perfect regarding interpretation. There are people in my personal (non-cyberspace) life that I absolutely am confident are filled with the Holy Spirit, that don't agree with each other on every scriptural point. There are people in my online life that I am fairly confident are led by the Holy Spirit (you are one of them ;)) yet they do not all agree on every scriptural point. How can this be explained accept that all can not be ALL right on ALL interpretation? If we deny the possibility for misinterpretation on our part, we open the door to the enemy to attack us in our own arrogance. Remember, the Pharisees THOUGHT they had all interpretation figured out....and they didn't!

I will be the first to say that I don't not have scripture perfected. There are some areas where God has not yet given me special revelation. End times prophecy is an area that I have studied but that there is still a great deal to be revealed. Is it your understanding that because someone has submitted to Yeshua and been filled with the Holy Spirit that they will have all interpretation on every piece of scripture? If so, why are we exhorted to study to show ourselves approved? :hmm:

God bless my friend!What I meant was all scripture that is breathed upon your heart by the Spirit of God (Rhema) is free of misinterpretation, at least for you, because it is to you that this was spoken. That is why he is a personal God.

For example, I am intellectual accept that Jesus is God and may keep all the christian rules from time remembered. I may be looked up to and even respected in the christian community. But, unless the Spirit breathes on my heart that Jesus is God, my intellectual comprehension, though true, is futile.

ravi4u2
Jan 15th 2008, 01:14 AM
I dont know what particular sabbath you are alluding to but the weekly sabbath is a memorial of creation. It was instituted before sin. The annual sabbaths were intstituted because of sin. Jesus fulfilled these aannual sabbaths. There was nothing in the weekly sabbath to fulfil. It is merely a day whereby we cease from our own works and focus our thoughts and time on the Lord. It is a day God Himself blessed, sanctified and made holy. To claim any other day or days or none at all simply doesn't wash: God hsan't transferred the solemnity, so how can we? And to claim Jesus is now our rest rather than the sabbath is a man- made invention for it is found nowhere in scripture.Spiritually we are to rest from our own works and trust in the saving work of Christ, yes, but why or how does this take away from God's instruction to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy?"
BrakeliteLeviticus 23:24. The rest of your question is a merry-go-round. My response to that can be found in http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=102581

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 01:21 AM
What I meant was all scripture that is breathed upon your heart by the Spirit of God (Rhema) is free of misinterpretation, at least for you, because it is to you that this was spoken. That is why he is a personal God.

For example, I am intellectual accept that Jesus is God and may keep all the christian rules from time remembered. I may be looked up to and even respected in the christian community. But, unless the Spirit breathes on my heart that Jesus is God, my intellectual comprehension, though true, is futile.Just curious, do you have a scriptural basis for this or is this your personal opinion. How I understand 'rhema' (Greek) is a bit different than the way you seem to see it. The way I understand 'rhema' is what I have heard directly from the mouth of God. Like when I heard Him tell me to move from South Carolina back to South Florida. That, I believe, was a rhema word from God; something specifically for me. That was NOT something I could find specifically in scripture.

losthorizon
Jan 15th 2008, 01:32 AM
losthorizon, I don't know if anyone here is SDA. :hmm: I know I'm not! But no, I haven't had to sign any contract with anyone, nor would I expect anyone to sign a contract with me. :D I attend a house fellowship here in South Florida and not everyone who fellowships with us keeps Sabbath, so no it's not a requirement! :lol:

God Bless!
Hi Studyin - do you agree that churches today who “bind upon Christians” as a matter of faith the keeping of the fourth commandment doing so without the authority of the Lord? Were Gentile-Christians ever commanded to "keep the Sabbath"? :)

ravi4u2
Jan 15th 2008, 01:40 AM
Just curious, do you have a scriptural basis for this or is this your personal opinion. How I understand 'rhema' (Greek) is a bit different than the way you seem to see it. The way I understand 'rhema' is what I have heard directly from the mouth of God. Like when I heard Him tell me to move from South Carolina back to South Florida. That, I believe, was a rhema word from God; something specifically for me. That was NOT something I could find specifically in scripture.Well, there are different interpretations. But mine is closer to the thought of Pentecostals. An example of the Rhema of God is to consider how several different people can read the same passage of Scripture and each sees something different. This occurs because each person is in a different place spiritually in their individual lives so God's word to each of them in that moment of their lives is different - specific to their needs.

losthorizon
Jan 15th 2008, 01:48 AM
Hi.
As a Christian do you beleive you have the freedom to disobey the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th or any other commandment?
Did Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob - all of whom never heard of the 10 Commandments delivered by Moses to the Israelites – “have the freedom to disobey the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th Commandments? Do we have any record of any of the Patriarchs being commanded by God to keep the Sabbath or was the “keeping of the Sabbath” exactly what the Bible says it was – a sign between God and the nation of Israel?
You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day. Deuteronomy 5:15Were you ever “a slave in the land of Egypt” as were the Israelites? Do you judge another respecting the Sabbath?

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 02:00 AM
Well, there are different interpretations. But mine is closer to the thought of Pentecostals. An example of the Rhema of God is to consider how several different people can read the same passage of Scripture and each sees something different. This occurs because each person is in a different place spiritually in their individual lives so God's word to each of them in that moment of their lives is different - specific to their needs.Okay, I can see how that might apply to many things. There are, however, some things that are more black and white, so to speak. Is it your understanding that if you are spirit-filled you can not misinterpret scripture?

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 02:13 AM
Did Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob - all of whom never heard of the 10 Commandments delivered by Moses to the Israelites – “have the freedom to disobey the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th Commandments? Do we have any record of any of the Patriarchs being commanded by God to keep the Sabbath or was the “keeping of the Sabbath” exactly what the Bible says it was – a sign between God and the nation of Israel?
You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day. Deuteronomy 5:15Were you ever “a slave in the land of Egypt” as were the Israelites? Do you judge another respecting the Sabbath?It seems Isaiah foresaw others.

Isaiah 56:6-8
6 “ Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,

“ Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

God's word does not limit the Sabbath to Jews only, so neither will I. Look! We can go around and around on this one. The bottom line is that I am going to enjoy the Sabbath that according to Yeshua, God has made FOR man (He didn't say Jews). If you choose not to, fine!

Alright, now as to any SDA doctrine, that is limited to the 'World Religions (http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=46)' forum. If you want to ask specific questions about that, please start a new thread in that forum. ;)

God Bless!

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 15th 2008, 02:24 AM
Did Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob - all of whom never heard of the 10 Commandments delivered by Moses to the Israelites – “have the freedom to disobey the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th Commandments? Do we have any record of any of the Patriarchs being commanded by God to keep the Sabbath or was the “keeping of the Sabbath” exactly what the Bible says it was – a sign between God and the nation of Israel?

You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day. Deuteronomy 5:15

Were you ever “a slave in the land of Egypt” as were the Israelites? Do you judge another respecting the Sabbath?

Did they have the freedom to disobey? You know something my friend, we ALL have that freedom.
Let's say Abraham and Isaac and Jacob had no clue, then do you think God holds them accountable for something they had no clue about ? On the other hand these were some important figures, so do you suppose God would not tell them His desires ?

At any rate, I can't quite get past the fact that you would not consider yourself a part of Israel, or do you suppose Israel is only a physical body ?
What do you make of it when God said in Exodus:

Exo 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."

Num 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."

As for being a slave of Egypt, yes i was a slave of Egypt, but mind you not the physical Egypt, but the spiritual one, and it had a very physical effect on me.

Likewise does the spiritual being grafted into the same tree (Israel) have the same effect on me that i now also desire to observe the commands of God.

Do i judge another regarding the Sabbath ? No, i do not, because God woke me up in due time, and i learned, as others also will. We all come to the Lord when He calls us, and it may be at different times.

Shalom,
Tanja

losthorizon
Jan 15th 2008, 04:40 AM
...Did they have the freedom to disobey? You know something my friend, we ALL have that freedom.
Let's say Abraham and Isaac and Jacob had no clue, then do you think God holds them accountable for something they had no clue about ? On the other hand these were some important figures, so do you suppose God would not tell them His desires ?

But they most certainly did have a clue - although the Patriarchs lived before Moses and “the giving of the law” they, like all the Gentiles had “the requirements of the Law …written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them" (Romans 2:15).


At any rate, I can't quite get past the fact that you would not consider yourself a part of Israel, or do you suppose Israel is only a physical body ?
But I do consider myself “part of Israel” – all Christians (both Jew and Gentile) make up the “Israel of God” today. And the Israel of God is under the “law of Christ” as revealed in the NT – we are not under the Law of Moses as some on this thread insist. And the NT does not require Christians to “keep the Sabbath” as an article of faith. The command to keep the Sabbath became obsolete at the Cross when the Lord said “It is finished!” Therefore, "let no man judge you...in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of Sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come" (Col. 2:14).

The entire Mosaical system with its feasts, new moons, Sabbaths was the shadow but Jesus Christ is the reality. The physical Sabbath was merely a shadow - the reality is the rest found only in "God's rest" – Jesus is our Sabbath rest,
So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his. (Hebrews 4:9-10)

losthorizon
Jan 15th 2008, 04:58 AM
...God's word does not limit the Sabbath to Jews only, so neither will I. Look! We can go around and around on this one. The bottom line is that I am going to enjoy the Sabbath that according to Yeshua, God has made FOR man (He didn't say Jews). If you choose not to, fine!

There is no problem with those who to choose to enjoy the Sabbath – I enjoy the Sabbath – I think we are on the same page in that regard. The problem that is presented on this thread is with those who insist that Christians must “keep the Sabbath” as an act of obedience to the Law of Moses – a law given only to the Israelites and a law that is no longer applicable to God’s people. :)

ravi4u2
Jan 15th 2008, 05:04 AM
Okay, I can see how that might apply to many things. There are, however, some things that are more black and white, so to speak. Is it your understanding that if you are spirit-filled you can not misinterpret scripture?All scripture that is breathed upon your heart by the Spirit of God (Rhema) is free of misinterpretation. Of course Rhema has got to be witnessed by by at least 2.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 15th 2008, 06:20 AM
And the Israel of God is under the “law of Christ” as revealed in the NT – we are not under the Law of Moses as some on this thread insist. And the NT does not require Christians to “keep the Sabbath” as an article of faith.So you propose that Yeshua being God has changed ? You're entitled to thinking what you want, but if Yeshua being God has annulled the Law which He himself gave to people via the WORD which is Yeshua, then you're talking about a divided house, or at least a change.

The terms have not changed, the only thing that did change was that Yeshua not a Levite, but rather from the tribe of Judah is now our High priest, and soon to be King.

This is the only Law that had out of necessity to be changed when Yeshua came as our high priest.
Yeshua Himself proclaimed a strong warning which should be heeded by all:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

If He came to fulfill the Law and thereby it was no longer needed, then why on earth would He make such a big deal of it saying He came NOT to destroy or abolish it, but to fulfill. Therefore the word fulfil must have a different meaning than "done away"

We are to fulfil or uphold the Law just as He did:
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.



Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 15th 2008, 06:36 AM
Here's how i understand these verses a bit more in context as context matters much:

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

If you as a good law abiding citizen follow the Law, and should you make a mistake, which will you be under ? Law or Grace ? Does being a Law abiding citizen absolve you from obeying the law ?

This is the second thought of the verse preceeding the statement that we are not under the Law, but under grace, meaning that we now don't have to worry about the condemnation the breaking of the Law brings with is as the law demands punishment/payment for transgression. This is now out of the way.

Now look at the next verse:
It talks about being obedient slaves. We can chose our fate, which is obedience (leading to righteousness) or we can chose to disobey and transgress the Law which is the definition of sin. (slave to sin)

Anyway, obedience means knowing what God expects of us, and learning about that is only possible beyond a shadow of doubt through the Word itself, and with the Holy Spirit's help we will know how to understand the commands of God, from the surface level down to deep sea level.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 15th 2008, 06:48 AM
So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his. (Hebrews 4:9-10)

Ok, so do you just sit on your hiney and expect God to lift your fingers to do His will like a puppet on a string ? How else do you propose you cease from your own labors ?

The meaning of this verse simply is this: If you follow God's commands, then you're not doing your own works, because you're infact doing His will, and that's when you cease from your own works, and enter His rest. This is something many Israelites who had stood at Mt Sinai anbd pledged to the terms of God saying all that God has spoken we will do, and they did not keep their end of the bargain. They did not enter His rest because of unbelief, IOW their actions did not follow suit and they did not follow through obeying God's commands.

This is how i understand this verse in Hebrews. Perhaps if you could read Hebrews Chapter 3 and 4 with this perspective in mind you will begin to see just how much more sense this makes.

Shalom,
Tanja

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 11:22 AM
There is no problem with those who to choose to enjoy the Sabbath – I enjoy the Sabbath – I think we are on the same page in that regard. The problem that is presented on this thread is with those who insist that Christians must “keep the Sabbath” as an act of obedience to the Law of Moses – a law given only to the Israelites and a law that is no longer applicable to God’s people. :)I disagree about anyone insisting that Christians MUST keep Sabbath. The subject really didn't come up in that way until you mentioned SDA. I simply saw believers discussing the interpretation of scriptures regarding the subject. Me sharing that this is what I believe in no way is an indictment against any other believer that does not interpret things as I do. I absolutely know that I was saved BEFORE I began keeping Sabbath, so I know my salvation was not based on performance. ;) However, since beginning to keep Sabbath I have come to see that it is a gift that is meant to be a blessing for God's people, not a burden for their backs. This I what motivates me to be so involved in the apologetics of keeping the Sabbath. :)

God Bless!

losthorizon
Jan 15th 2008, 12:28 PM
So you propose that Yeshua being God has changed ? You're entitled to thinking what you want, but if Yeshua being God has annulled the Law which He himself gave to people via the WORD which is Yeshua, then you're talking about a divided house, or at least a change.

Certainly God has not changed but His covenant with mankind has changed – the Law of Moses was fulfilled by the Christ and the New Covenant - ratified by the blood of Christ became the "New Testament" to God’s people. There was both a change in the priesthood and “a change also in the law”. The NT does not require “Sabbath-keeping” - the “Israel of God” today is exhorted by the inspired writer to "let no man judge you...in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of Sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come". The Perfect has come. Can you find one command in the NT for Christians to keep the Sabbath? If I do not keep the Sabbath do I stand condemned before God?

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law” Hebrews. 7:12.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 01:38 PM
If I do not keep the Sabbath do I stand condemned before God?
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law” Hebrews. 7:12.Only if you have not accepted the blood of Yeshua. Let's get off the whole 'condemned for not keeping Sabbath' thing. That's a topic for the World Religions forum so let's not do that here in Bible Chat, okay? ;) Now, if the verse from Hebrews is properly exegeted it is clear that it is referring to the priesthood, and the law regarding the rules of the priesthood ie. from the house of Levi. As for the Law of God changing, you're absolutely right, it did, but not in a was that one was abolished but that it was taken to an even deeper spiritual level. Where if one were to obey Yeshua and love God will all their heart, soul, strength, and mind and love their neighbor as themselves; all the others will be in place. All the others HANG on those two. They don't fall from the two, they hang from them. They are upheld by LOVE! :pp That's my take on it.

God Bless!

jiggyfly
Jan 15th 2008, 01:49 PM
Only if you have not accepted the blood of Yeshua. Let's get off the whole 'condemned for not keeping Sabbath' thing. That's a topic for the World Religions forum so let's not do that here in Bible Chat, okay? ;) Now, if the verse from Hebrews is properly exegeted it is clear that it is referring to the priesthood, and the law regarding the rules of the priesthood ie. from the house of Levi. As for the Law of God changing, you're absolutely right, it did, but not in a was that one was abolished but that it was taken to an even deeper spiritual level. Where if one were to obey Yeshua and love God will all their heart, soul, strength, and mind and love their neighbor as themselves; all the others will be in place. All the others HANG on those two. They don't fall from the two, they hang from them. They are upheld by LOVE! :pp That's my take on it.

God Bless!

For this outcome to be realized what should our focus be?

Friend of I AM
Jan 15th 2008, 02:49 PM
Ok, I know this one is probably going to get into a heated debate, but here is the question. Should we still keep the Sabbath Holy, did it ever loose it's significance? Or is it still a factor today. We say that it would be wrong to steal, and then we say that it would be wrong to commit adultery and still others say it is wrong to make graven images, and all the ten commandments apply but when we come to the 4th commandment, then there is a problem. Question, why is there a problem with the 4th commandment?

My answer to that would be Yes. But I don't think the tradition of the original Sabbath such as lighting candles and the other various ordinances are still in effect.

Funnily enough, I spoke with someone the online the other day regarding us not having reached the actual Sabbath day from a creation standpoint as of yet and that we're techinically in the 6th day of creations still at this point. What is everyone's thoughts on that?

losthorizon
Jan 15th 2008, 03:54 PM
...Let's get off the whole 'condemned for not keeping Sabbath' thing.
Please clarify what can and cannot be posted on this thread – the OP implies that the fourth commandment is compulsory for Christians today in one’s obedience to the gospel of Christ, i.e., if one does not “keep the Sabbath” it is the same as if one commits adultery or steals from his neighbor. Can this obligatory Sabbath-keeping question be addressed?:)

Clifton
Jan 15th 2008, 04:02 PM
How can the Sabbath be done away with. Christ is not the Sabbath, the sabbath is the day that God created for us to remember Him as our Creator. It was given in the beginning of time, before man had actually sinned, and if we look in Exodus 20we read "Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Well yea, the 10 commandments are moral laws of course for us all - the laws placed upon the Israelites are over 600 - thus, if the 10 commandments where only for the Israelites, it would be the 613 Commandments, or would it be 623? Jewish Help Please!

Obviously, the moral laws existed at the time of Cain, which was punished for murdering his brother, etc. etc. etc. (if there was no such thing as lawlessness, there would have been no need for the flood). Common Sense sure goes a long ways... ;)


When we look at this text there are some things that should be noticed. First of all, again, the first word of the commandment is "Remember" Which shows that some people obviously would tend to forget. But it is verse 11 we need to notice, because it takes us behind the old covenant back to Creation, where Jesus created the world. Notice what it says "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Question, does God change? Is God going to take something that He made holy and then go and say that it is not holy, that would in effect say that God's ways change. But we know that His ways do not change. Again, Jesus kept the Sabbath. Should we not then follow Christ's example? As many times as Jesus said "Follow me" don't you think that He meant what He said. When we follow Jesus example then we are following the truth. Did Jesus keep Sunday? The Bible does not say that He did. Who is our example... Jesus!:) And I know that it has been already said by someone, but Jesus says in Mark 2:27 that "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Notice that the Bible does not say that it was made for Jews, but it was made for man. But what about the rest of the New Testament, can it be said that Paul kept the Sabbath? Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,"

But is this the only place in Acts that talks about the Sabbath? Some may say, of course, He reasoned with the Jews, but what about the gentiles

Act 13:44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him.

What does Acts 13:44 say, it says that almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. Now, I'm no expert or anything like that, but it would seem that there would be gentiles in the audience at the time the message was given. In fact the Jews were jealous, but were they jealous of other Jews that were there, or were they actually jealous of the gentiles? It is clear that they were jealous of those who were meeting: the whole city. But what day is Paul preaching to the whole city? The Sabbath. Also when we look at Acts 16:13,14 we read about Paul visiting a Roman Colony.(definitely full of gentiles)
Act 16:11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis,
Act 16:12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days.
Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. We can see that the Sabbath is still kept even in Acts. You see friends, the Sabbath was never done away with, in fact it was kept in both the old and new testament. :)Here’s a question, which would include both the folks that believe the seventh day is the sabbath as well as those that cater to the belief that Christ “moved” the Sabbath to Sunday (which the way it worked back then, would be either Saturday or Sunday at sundown going up to the next sundown):

What about people that are employed with jobs that require them to work shifts anywhere from Friday sundown to Monday sundown? Was this one of the reasons that Christ corrected the Sabbath, by noting things like about lost sheep, that you may have to go get, etc., and it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath, because He knew as the ages came and went, there would be ages where people had to work their jobs at these times? Would it be a stretch to say it is good, because this is how you feed yourself and family, pay the bills, etc., or simply put, there are times when it is “necessary” to perform tasks? In the beginning of time, working 6 days and resting one was common and more practical.

RogerW
Jan 15th 2008, 04:25 PM
I haven't read all eight pages of replies to this thread, so I may be repeating what someone else has already said. I gave this reply in a similar thread just this morning, and think it may be beneficial here...if it hasn't already been stated.

Greetings fightingfalcon,

I didn’t read the entire article. But since it appears your argument is for keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath, and believe it is unbiblical to call Sunday the Sabbath and worship on Sunday, I will keep my reply focused on this part of your article.

“The seventh day sabbath could not be a “shadow of things to come” as the sabbath was instituted before sin and there could NOT be shadows before sin existed. It doesn’t even make sense, what would the sabbath be a shadow of? And why would people before Christ’s time need rest but those of us after not need rest? Or is it, we just get to pick our own day now? None of this makes sense and whats more it isn’t biblical.”

Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. This is before creation, and therefore before any sin existed. The blood of the slain lamb marked the door post at the first Passover meal before the exodus from Egypt. This lamb’s blood symbolized life that is found through the blood of The Lamb of God and so symbolizes delivery or freedom from bondage, through His blood. Therefore the Sabbath instituted by God at creation symbolizes the New Covenant Lord’s Sabbath. This is why we read in the gospel’s that the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath (Mt 12:18; Mk 2:28; Lu 6:5). Man was created perfect, without sin, however Christ as the Lamb slain (a shadow or symbol) is established in heaven from before the foundation of the world. Clearly a shadow, or symbol existed before sin entered the world.

Hebrews shows us the New Covenant Sabbath in the Lord. There is a rest (4520. Sabbatismosa - from a derivative of 4521; "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):--rest.) to the people of God who have entered into His rest.

Since we enter into His rest/His Sabbath when we become saved, we are to cease from doing our own works of the law for forgiveness, even as God did from His after creation.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The Mosaic ceremonial laws became obsolete when Christ went to the cross and the veil of the temple was rent. But the Jews continued to observe these ceremonial laws as long as the first Tabernacle remained standing. It was only after the total destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that the OT ceremonial laws completely ended. But the Sabbath for the Jews was their keeping of the Seventh Day Sabbath according to the Laws given THEM by God.

As a New Covenant Christian I make every effort to keep the Lord’s Sabbath which is not limited to one particular day of the week. The fact that I worship on Sunday is important and originated because this is the day the Lord resurrected from the dead, and made eternal life a reality for all who receive faith to believe on Him. We can also find biblical confirmation for worshipping our risen Lord on the first day of the week as opposed to the seventh. But because of poor translation this is difficult to see.

Look carefully at this verse from the gospel of Matthew. We see an end coming to the Sabbath. The word day being italicized means it is added for easier reading, but was not in the original language. Finally the word translated “week” is the same exact word that has been translated Sabbath. Why the translators translated the same Greek word differently is unknown. Therefore the true reading of this passage shows us that one era of Sabbath keeping was ending and another era of Sabbath keeping began. It would not be improper to translate this passage thus, In the end of the Sabbath, as it begin to dawn toward the first of the Sabbath, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mt 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week [Sabbath], came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The Greek word translated Sabbath; 4521. Sabbaton - of Hebrew origin (7676); the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:--sabbath (day), week.

Many Blessings,
RW

NeoJonah
Jan 15th 2008, 04:29 PM
Every day’s the Sabbath. When the Lord died on the cross, he became the Sabbath for all of us.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 07:21 PM
Please clarify what can and cannot be posted on this thread – the OP implies that the fourth commandment is compulsory for Christians today in one’s obedience to the gospel of Christ, i.e., if one does not “keep the Sabbath” it is the same as if one commits adultery or steals from his neighbor. Can this obligatory Sabbath-keeping question be addressed?:)Actually, the OP poses a question and is asking for our take on the answer to that question. The OP does not say or even imply that if you don't keep Sabbath you are condemned or any such thing. If he were to SAY such a thing, the thread would have been moved to World Religions or Controversial Issues or even closed in a heartbeat, as was indicated early in the thread. Look the only group I am aware of that has this "obligatory Sabbath-keeping" stance is SDA. So, if you want to address that issue, go to the World Religions forum and start a thread that asks SDAs why they believe what they believe. There are, contrary to common knowledge, plenty of believers who keep Sabbath without making any indictments against other believers; in this thread you should be addressing these fellow believers; not SDA doctrine. I hope this clarifies it for you and anyone else participating. ;)

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 07:29 PM
For this outcome to be realized what should our focus be?Our eyes must be on Yeshua and our focus MUST be LOVE! That is the point. It ALL hangs upon LOVE! That must be the motivation. Everything Yeshua ever said or did upholds the commandments of the Father, because He loves the Father and is loved by the Father. He came to correct centuries of misinterpretation and if you look at how He walked out Torah to perfection you will see a picture of what the Father intended Torah to be. Not a burden but a blessing!

God Bless!

ravi4u2
Jan 15th 2008, 07:59 PM
I haven't read all eight pages of replies to this thread, so I may be repeating what someone else has already said. I gave this reply in a similar thread just this morning, and think it may be beneficial here...if it hasn't already been stated.

Greetings fightingfalcon,

I didn’t read the entire article. But since it appears your argument is for keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath, and believe it is unbiblical to call Sunday the Sabbath and worship on Sunday, I will keep my reply focused on this part of your article.

“The seventh day sabbath could not be a “shadow of things to come” as the sabbath was instituted before sin and there could NOT be shadows before sin existed. It doesn’t even make sense, what would the sabbath be a shadow of? And why would people before Christ’s time need rest but those of us after not need rest? Or is it, we just get to pick our own day now? None of this makes sense and whats more it isn’t biblical.”

Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. This is before creation, and therefore before any sin existed. The blood of the slain lamb marked the door post at the first Passover meal before the exodus from Egypt. This lamb’s blood symbolized life that is found through the blood of The Lamb of God and so symbolizes delivery or freedom from bondage, through His blood. Therefore the Sabbath instituted by God at creation symbolizes the New Covenant Lord’s Sabbath. This is why we read in the gospel’s that the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath (Mt 12:18; Mk 2:28; Lu 6:5). Man was created perfect, without sin, however Christ as the Lamb slain (a shadow or symbol) is established in heaven from before the foundation of the world. Clearly a shadow, or symbol existed before sin entered the world.

Hebrews shows us the New Covenant Sabbath in the Lord. There is a rest (4520. Sabbatismosa - from a derivative of 4521; "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):--rest.) to the people of God who have entered into His rest.

Since we enter into His rest/His Sabbath when we become saved, we are to cease from doing our own works of the law for forgiveness, even as God did from His after creation.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The Mosaic ceremonial laws became obsolete when Christ went to the cross and the veil of the temple was rent. But the Jews continued to observe these ceremonial laws as long as the first Tabernacle remained standing. It was only after the total destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that the OT ceremonial laws completely ended. But the Sabbath for the Jews was their keeping of the Seventh Day Sabbath according to the Laws given THEM by God.

As a New Covenant Christian I make every effort to keep the Lord’s Sabbath which is not limited to one particular day of the week. The fact that I worship on Sunday is important and originated because this is the day the Lord resurrected from the dead, and made eternal life a reality for all who receive faith to believe on Him. We can also find biblical confirmation for worshipping our risen Lord on the first day of the week as opposed to the seventh. But because of poor translation this is difficult to see.

Look carefully at this verse from the gospel of Matthew. We see an end coming to the Sabbath. The word day being italicized means it is added for easier reading, but was not in the original language. Finally the word translated “week” is the same exact word that has been translated Sabbath. Why the translators translated the same Greek word differently is unknown. Therefore the true reading of this passage shows us that one era of Sabbath keeping was ending and another era of Sabbath keeping began. It would not be improper to translate this passage thus, In the end of the Sabbath, as it begin to dawn toward the first of the Sabbath, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mt 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week [Sabbath], came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The Greek word translated Sabbath; 4521. Sabbaton - of Hebrew origin (7676); the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:--sabbath (day), week.

Many Blessings,
RWIn trying to make a case for not keeping Sabbath, you have made a case for keeping Sundays. There isn't a need to keep either, if as you say, Christ is our rest.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 08:22 PM
In trying to make a case for not keeping Sabbath, you have made a case for keeping Sundays. There isn't a need to keep either, if as you say, Christ is our rest.You noticed that too huh? :D

SIG
Jan 15th 2008, 11:42 PM
“The seventh day sabbath could not be a “shadow of things to come” as the sabbath was instituted before sin and there could NOT be shadows before sin existed. It doesn’t even make sense, what would the sabbath be a shadow of? And why would people before Christ’s time need rest but those of us after not need rest? Or is it, we just get to pick our own day now? None of this makes sense and whats more it isn’t biblical.”

Funny--this passage jumped out at me when I scanned the original article.

I'll maintain here that sin did already exist by the seventh day of creation. God had separated light from darkness before this, and that darkness contained sin. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5).

RogerW
Jan 16th 2008, 12:23 AM
In trying to make a case for not keeping Sabbath, you have made a case for keeping Sundays. There isn't a need to keep either, if as you say, Christ is our rest.

Hi Ravi,

Wasn't specifically trying to make a case for keeping Sunday, but did want to make a case for coming together as an organized body unto the Lord. I believe there is precedence in Scripture for believers coming together as one body unto the Lord (He 10:25). The problem with trying to pin this day of organized worship together as one holy people, in one holy faith to Sunday becomes problematic because sabbaton is translated both "week" and "Sabbath". It seems a strong case can be made for organized worship on the first of the week because we find sabbaton translated sabbath when speaking of worship in the Jewish synagogue, but sabbaton is translated week when speaking of Christian worship.

Ac 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Ac 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Ac 20:7 And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1Co 16:2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

When Christ arose from the grave was it on the first of the Sabbath, or the first of the week?

Lu 24:1 Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.

When Christ appeared to His disciples it was the same day He arose, but evening. Did He appear on the first of the Sabbath, or the first of the week?

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

Many Blessings,
RW

losthorizon
Jan 16th 2008, 12:37 AM
“The seventh day sabbath could not be a “shadow of things to come” as the sabbath was instituted before sin and there could NOT be shadows before sin existed. It doesn’t even make sense, what would the sabbath be a shadow of?

Then you must completely disregard the word of God - Colossians 2:16-17 reads, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

Please note – the passage plainly says “the sabbath days… are a shadow of things to come” – it can’t be any more obvious. The Sabbath was a "shadow" of the "reality" and the reality is the “Heavenly Rest” we share with our Creator that begins when we enter into His presence through the blood of Christ – when we are found to be “in Christ Jesus”.

The Sabbath was blessed by God at the Creation but there is no record that He revealed this fact to mankind until the Law was given to Moses at Sinai. There is no record of the Patriarchs keeping the Sabbath because it was never revealed to them and they were never commanded to keep the Sabbath. Sabbath keeping was to a sign between God and the children of Israel only. It was never commanded for Gentiles to “keep”.
"My rest," says God: the rest of God! Something more wonderful than any other kind of rest. In my text it is (in the original) called the Sabbatism—not the Sabbath, but the rest of the Sabbath—not the outward ritual of the Sabbath, which was binding upon the Jew, but the inward spirit of the sabbath, which is the joy and delight of the Christian. "There remaineth therefore"—because others have not had it, because some are to have it—"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

Now, this rest, I believe, is partly enjoyed on earth. "We that have believed do enter into rest," for we have ceased from our own works, as God did from his. But the full fruition and rich enjoyment of it remains in the future and eternal state of the beatified on the other side the stream of death.” ~ C. H. Spurgeon, from the sermon “Heavenly Rest”

SemperReformanda
Jan 16th 2008, 01:32 AM
LH, I would consider it dishonest to use Spurgeon as an example in your case.

From Spurgeon's Catechism, 1855:


49 Q Which is the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment is, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep
it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it
thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy
daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor they
cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in
six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all
that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the
Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

50 Q What is required in the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment requires the keeping holy to God such
set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one
whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself.

# Le 19:30 De 5:12

51 Q How is the Sabbath to be sanctified?

A The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that
day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as
are lawful on other days,

# Le 23:3

and spending the whole time in the public and private
exercises of God's worship,

# Ps 92:1,2 Isa 58:13,14

except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and
mercy.

# Mt 12:11,12

ravi4u2
Jan 16th 2008, 01:45 AM
Hi Ravi,

Wasn't specifically trying to make a case for keeping Sunday, but did want to make a case for coming together as an organized body unto the Lord. I believe there is precedence in Scripture for believers coming together as one body unto the Lord (He 10:25). The problem with trying to pin this day of organized worship together as one holy people, in one holy faith to Sunday becomes problematic because sabbaton is translated both "week" and "Sabbath". It seems a strong case can be made for organized worship on the first of the week because we find sabbaton translated sabbath when speaking of worship in the Jewish synagogue, but sabbaton is translated week when speaking of Christian worship.

Ac 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Ac 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Ac 20:7 And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1Co 16:2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

When Christ arose from the grave was it on the first of the Sabbath, or the first of the week?

Lu 24:1 Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.

When Christ appeared to His disciples it was the same day He arose, but evening. Did He appear on the first of the Sabbath, or the first of the week?

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

Many Blessings,
RWIf the Body is a organism, it surely cannot be disjointed but needs to be connected in the microscopic level. But the question remain, "who is the connector (organizer)?" As to whether Jesus actually rose again on the Sunday, is debatable. But that is a topic for discussion elsewhere.

losthorizon
Jan 16th 2008, 01:55 AM
LH, I would consider it dishonest to use Spurgeon as an example in your case.

No dishonesty, Semper – if you are suggesting that Spurgeon was a “preacher of the old legal Sabbath” then you are mistaken. He correctly understood the significance of Lord's Day (Sunday) in NT worship just as he correctly understood that Sabbath-keeping was given only to the Jews and the Sabbath was only the shadow of the “Heavenly Rest” that comes through the sacrifice of our Lord at Golgotha.;)
"I am no preacher of the old legal Sabbath. I am a preacher of the Gospel. The Sabbath of the Jew is to him a task; the Lord's Day of the Christian, the first day of the week, is to him a joy, a day of rest, of peace, and of thanksgiving. And if you Christian men can earnestly drive away all distractions, so that you can really rest today, it will be good for your bodies, good for your souls, good mentally, good spiritually, good temporally, and good eternally." ~ Charles Spurgeon, from a sermon delivered on "the Lord's Day" (Sunday)

SemperReformanda
Jan 16th 2008, 02:04 AM
No dishonesty, Semper – if you are suggesting that Spurgeon was a “preacher of the old legal Sabbath” then you are mistaken. He correctly understood the significance of Lord's Day (Sunday) in NT worship just as he correctly understood that Sabbath-keeping was given only to the Jews and the Sabbath was only the shadow of the “Heavenly Rest” that comes through the sacrifice of our Lord at Golgotha.;)
"I am no preacher of the old legal Sabbath. I am a preacher of the Gospel. The Sabbath of the Jew is to him a task; the Lord's Day of the Christian, the first day of the week, is to him a joy, a day of rest, of peace, and of thanksgiving. And if you Christian men can earnestly drive away all distractions, so that you can really rest today, it will be good for your bodies, good for your souls, good mentally, good spiritually, good temporally, and good eternally." ~ Charles Spurgeon, from a sermon delivered on "the Lord's Day" (Sunday)
I disagree. Your position really does differ from Spurgeon's, considering he taught the children and new converts of his church that:

The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days, and spending the whole time in the public and private exercises of God's worship", except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and mercy.

I am not entering into this discussion further, I would just caution you to be careful how you quote people who disagree with your position ;)

EDIT: I should add that for Spurgeon, clearly, the Sabbath is to the Lord's Day as the rest of the moral law is to Jesus' exposition of it. The Sabbath is fulfilled and furthered by Jesus life, teaching and resurrection to glory, and thus binding on the New Covenant believer.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 16th 2008, 02:20 AM
It seems he believes as 'Way of the Master' does, that a person should rest one day out of seven.

losthorizon
Jan 16th 2008, 02:54 AM
I disagree. Your position really does differ from Spurgeon's, considering he taught the children and new converts of his church that:

The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days, and spending the whole time in the public and private exercises of God's worship", except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and mercy.

I am not entering into this discussion further, I would just caution you to be careful how you quote people who disagree with your position ;)

EDIT: I should add that for Spurgeon, clearly, the Sabbath is to the Lord's Day as the rest of the moral law is to Jesus' exposition of it. The Sabbath is fulfilled and furthered by Jesus life, teaching and resurrection to glory, and thus binding on the New Covenant believer.
I don’t really think it is your position to caution me regarding whom I choose to quote. You obviously do not understand which day of the week Spurgeon is referring to as the “Sabbath”. Like many Christian-Baptists of his day he referred to Sunday as the weekly “Christian Sabbath” (a misnomer, btw) but he most certainly did not keep nor advocate the keeping of the seventh-day as an act of faith for Christians. He was not (in his own words) “a preacher of the old legal Sabbath”.

Off topic but for your education, please note the “Baptist Confession” below – the terminology would be contemporary with Spurgeon. Please note “Sunday” – “The Lord’s Day” – and the “Christian Sabbath” are all referring to the same day of the week – the first day not the seventh day. In your quote above when Spurgeon wrote, “the Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day”, he is referring to Sunday – not Saturday.;)
“We believe that the first day of the week is the Lord's Day, or Christian Sabbath; and is to be kept sacred to religious purposes, by abstaining from all secular labor and sinful recreations; by the devout observance of all the means of grace, both private and public; and by preparation for that rest that remaineth for the people of God.” ~ The New Hampshire Baptist Confession, 1833

SemperReformanda
Jan 16th 2008, 02:59 AM
I don’t really think it is your position to caution me regarding whom I choose to quote. You obviously do not understand which day of the week Spurgeon is referring to as the “Sabbath”. Like many Christian-Baptists of his day he referred to Sunday as the weekly “Christian Sabbath” (a misnomer, btw) but he most certainly did not keep nor advocate the keeping of the seventh-day as an act of faith for Christians. He was not (in his own words) “a preacher of the old legal Sabbath”.



Off topic but for your education, please note the “Baptist Confession” below – the terminology would be contemporary with Spurgeon. Please note “Sunday” – “The Lord’s Day” – and the “Christian Sabbath” are all referring to the same day of the week – the first day not the seventh day. In your quote above when Spurgeon wrote, “the Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day”, he is referring to Sunday – not Saturday.;)
“We believe that the first day of the week is the Lord's Day, or Christian Sabbath; and is to be kept sacred to religious purposes, by abstaining from all secular labor and sinful recreations; by the devout observance of all the means of grace, both private and public; and by preparation for that rest that remaineth for the people of God.” ~ The New Hampshire Baptist Confession, 1833
I understand and agree, hence my edit in the post you quoted. Please read me more carefully.

Lord's Day = Sabbath = Sunday.

losthorizon
Jan 16th 2008, 03:03 AM
I understand and agree, hence my edit in the post you quoted. Please read me more carefully.

Lord's Day = Sabbath = Sunday.
Is it then still you opinion that my position differs from Spurgeon's? Maybe it is you who should read my posts more carefully.:)

Studyin'2Show
Jan 16th 2008, 03:09 AM
Is it then still you opinion that my position differs from Spurgeon's? Maybe it is you who should read my posts more carefully.:)Maybe I should too! :D I was under the impression that you did NOT advocate a replacement Sabbath (Sunday). Am I misreading this? :hmm:

losthorizon
Jan 16th 2008, 03:24 AM
Maybe I should too! :D I was under the impression that you did NOT advocate a replacement Sabbath (Sunday). Am I misreading this? :hmm:
My position has always been the “first day of the week” is “Sunday”, aka, “the Lord’s Day” – the day Jesus Christ arose from the grave and the same day the NT “church of God” was born (Day of Pentecost). “Saturday” is the “Sabbath” – always has been and always will be – it is the day of the week the children of Israel were commanded to “keep holy”.

SemperReformanda
Jan 16th 2008, 03:25 AM
Is it then still you opinion that my position differs from Spurgeon's? Maybe it is you who should read my posts more carefully.:)
Yes, I do think you differ from Spurgeon in your opinion. Spurgeon believed that the Sabbath was changed to a Sunday at the resurrection of Jesus. You don't.

losthorizon
Jan 16th 2008, 03:33 AM
Yes, I do think you differ from Spurgeon in your opinion. Spurgeon believed that the Sabbath was changed to a Sunday at the resurrection of Jesus. You don't.
How does my position differ from Spurgeon’s regarding my quote from his sermon, “Heavenly Rest”?
"My rest," says God: the rest of God! Something more wonderful than any other kind of rest. In my text it is (in the original) called the Sabbatism—not the Sabbath, but the rest of the Sabbath—not the outward ritual of the Sabbath, which was binding upon the Jew, but the inward spirit of the sabbath, which is the joy and delight of the Christian. "There remaineth therefore"—because others have not had it, because some are to have it—"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

Now, this rest, I believe, is partly enjoyed on earth. "We that have believed do enter into rest," for we have ceased from our own works, as God did from his. But the full fruition and rich enjoyment of it remains in the future and eternal state of the beatified on the other side the stream of death.” ~ C. H. Spurgeon, from the sermon “Heavenly Rest”

brakelite
Jan 16th 2008, 05:58 AM
While the word doesn't explicitly say that the patriarchs observed the sabbath, common sense says that they did. The sabbath is a gift for man's spiritual welfare. It is a time God has set aside for our good. That the Jews of Christ's time had made it a burden was amply shown by our Lord's example of how it ought to be observed.
So if it was for man's good, why should we expect that Abraham and the other patriarchs didn't need it? Surely they were as susceptible to spiritual tiredness and needed 'time out' just as we do?
Besisdes, it says of Abraham: Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

No real reason to think that the sabbath was missing from those laws. The Hebrew word here used for 'commandments' is the same used for the decalogue in Deut5:10,29.

Brakelite

jiggyfly
Jan 16th 2008, 11:59 AM
While the word doesn't explicitly say that the patriarchs observed the sabbath, common sense says that they did. The sabbath is a gift for man's spiritual welfare. It is a time God has set aside for our good. That the Jews of Christ's time had made it a burden was amply shown by our Lord's example of how it ought to be observed.
So if it was for man's good, why should we expect that Abraham and the other patriarchs didn't need it? Surely they were as susceptible to spiritual tiredness and needed 'time out' just as we do?
Besisdes, it says of Abraham: Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

No real reason to think that the sabbath was missing from those laws. The Hebrew word here used for 'commandments' is the same used for the decalogue in Deut5:10,29.

Brakelite

Does it really matter? Wasn't it Abraham's faith that pleased God and made him righteous?

Studyin'2Show
Jan 16th 2008, 12:21 PM
Does it really matter? Wasn't it Abraham's faith that pleased God and made him righteous?I think his post was just in response to the comment that the Sabbath was ONLY given to the Jews at Sinai. ;) I don't think he was implying that Abraham keeping Sabbath somehow made him righteous. I believe we'd all agree it was his faith shown clearly through his obedience (even to the point of taking Isaac to be sacrificed).

Studyin'2Show
Jan 16th 2008, 12:22 PM
Okay, last warning! Any more SDA references and this thread's getting shut down! Take that over to World Religions.

Theophilus
Jan 16th 2008, 12:51 PM
Okay, last warning! Any more SDA references and this thread's getting shut down! Take that over to World Religions.
Yeah...what she said.

(And for the record, this is the second warning against SDA doctrine)

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 01:06 PM
The Sabbath is still the Sabbath - the seventh day of the week - it was not "done away with". What was abolished at the cross was the command to keep the Sabbath as a matter of faith and it was “done away with” exactly the same way that the entire Mosaical system (Sabbath-keeping, animal sacrifices, etc) was “nailed to the cross”. The entire Jewish system was made obsolete the very moment Christ cried out, "It is finished!" as He "gave up the ghost".

You are confusing (as well as blending) Mosaic (of or relating to Moses or the institutions or writings attributed to him) with the 10 Commandments. That would be the “600+ commandments”, which would include the penalty for breaking the Holy Sabbath; There is nothing in the CGS (Christian Greek Scriptures) that the “entire” 10 Commandments were “made” obsolete at any moment, much less when Christ cried out TETELESTAI ("It is finished!"). This was the fulfilling which was not totally filled up yet. On Two Commandments hang ALL the Law and the Prophets - nothing in the CGS about any removals or subtractions in regard to the moral laws, the 10 commandments.

It was the debt paid (“nailed to the Cross”) and the sacrificial lamb that has completed / accomplished. The debt was the penalty, of course, while we are not put to death for disobeying The Law, if we break one, we break them all - you are adding to one section and removing from another:

“For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.1 Footnote: 1Lk. 16:17. “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees,1 you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens. Footnote: 1Mt. 15:3-9, Mk. 7:7-13, John 7:19, Acts 7:53, Rom. 2:23-27, Gal. 6:13.
Matthew 5:18-20 The Scriptures 1998+

For whoever shall guard all the Torah, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Torah. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by a Torah of freedom.1 Footnote: 1See 1:25, and John 8:32-36. For the judgment is without compassion to the one who has shown no compassion. And compassion boasts over judgment.
James 2:10-13 The Scriptures 1998+

The fact that you no longer get whipped or stoned (which would be in the 600+ commandments) is not a “license” to be a law-breaker (of course there are cases of necessity, say, for example, self-defense if your life is in danger - as for the Sabbath, Christ made note there are going to be situations that require you to do on the Sabbath. One, IMO, I posted yesterday about, is employment)

There is nothing in the CGS that states in the manner you convey. The 10 Commandments are morals instilled in the person, including the observance of The Sabbath, which Y’Shua corrected to it’s proper and manner states. And “It was IMPROVED”. It was one or more Jewish sects which prior changed it, turned it into a legalistic yoke and bondage (their writting ordinances), opposing the purpose of it as a day of joy and holy - also pointing out that under various circumstances that it will be necessary to do works on the Sabbath - hardly a waste of breath - IOW, it would not be necessary to correct and clarify the Sabbath, and expounding upon it, if it was soon to be “obsolete” as you convey - and those of us that know the whole integral of the Bible know that simply was not gonna happen.

I see your lengthy post is going to take more than one post of reply, so I will catch up with follow-up. Please understand that when it comes to having some knowledge of four languages, especially Hebrew and Greek, it is a head rush to sift through the web sites, etc. that rework the texts, because one cannot always know “where” and “what” they have reworked, and/or where any misinterpretations are based from - so a deciphering technique has to be applied with such. Of course, there is also the issue of variances between English Translations, which may be at odds with each another - IOW, a proper "interpretation" of one Bible may oppose a proper "interpretation" of another translation.

...

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 01:30 PM
...



The Old Testament "shadows”, including Sabbath-keeping were ended when Jesus completed His work on the cross - thus fulfilling God's purpose for the weekly Sabbath. Paul plainly tells us this in the letter to the Colossians. He explains that the “bond which stood against us with its legal demands” was “set aside” and nailed to the cross. This "legal bond" included the command to keep the Sabbath.Paul does not “plainly” tell “us” anything of the sort. Also, you do not know what a “shadow” is? Tree “shade”?? Perhaps we can help - put your hand under the light stand and look below it, and move it around - that is called a “shadow”. If your hand is moves the shadows moves, if it is removed the shadow is removed. If the tree is removed the shade is gone. Y’all might be intrigued with an exegetical study of the Greek εικων, (pronounced i-kone’),
1504 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1504),
which is where the English word “icon” comes from.

Also, your statement “The Old Testament "shadows”...” is “reworked” - it is The LAW that shadows GOOD things coming (“not passed away” - no such Greek). Again, as in a previous post, “ARE” (not “WERE”) TO COME (not “GONE”).


Paul warns some would arise who would carry some back into the bondage of the “old law”.Supply the verse that is in the CGS that says anything about ‘being carried back into the ‘bondage’ of The Ten Commandments that will translate back into Koine Greek, in *any* of the currently used Greek New Testaments. And The 10 Commandments is not “bondage”, accept to law-breakers -for the rest of us, it is freedom - just think if people were “permitted” to run around stealing, murdering, etc. - The “bondage”, appears to be the perversions by the sects preceding the time of Christ in the flesh.


He tells us to "stand fast" and let “no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath…” Fascinating that you do this. The misinterpretations of Colossians 2 comes up in my “Immersions” project, (as well as others), which is slowly being posted, supporting “water” as an element that we CAN partake in, since some others point to Colossians 2 as “materialistic immersion” being “old covenant” (rudiments… v.8) and there should be “only” spiritual immersions. And yet, here you make use out of reworked texts, the very one whom was exchanging out slices of spiritual immersions in favor of materialistic ones in other threads (re: reworking texts)! The “selective processing” is quite odd and inconsistent!


Sabbatarians try their best to draw those who will listen back into the “shadow” but we need not be deceived because the shadow-(Sabbath-keeping, etc) ended at the cross, as Paul has made clear.Actually, we are called Christians and Messianics, as well as Jews. There is Roman Protestantism and Catholicism - mercy, by now there is probably Roman Orthodoxy too, if not coming soon. Some of us are non-Roman now, even for those of us that may have been in the past.

And FTR, Paul warned us about those coming that would shed the same “lada-da-da” turning us away FROM the commandments - not “some” of them. As for the “shadow” business, see previous reply.


The Hebrew Sabbath is only a shadow, a picture of the rest Christians have in Christ Jesus - the OT shadows pointed to “the substance” that was Christ. The “True Sabbath Rest” is found by faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ…“There remains therefore a rest for the people of God” (Hebrews 4:9-10).Talk about a reworking of texts, you (or some group influencing you) are brilliant at doing it. It is not called “The Hebrew Sabbath”, or “The Jewish Sabbath” - that is just a ploy and play in words to distract from what YHWH calls it: the HOLY Sabbath. Here again, you exchange words and phrases of that which is holy and sacred into something of man, materialistic or physical attributes. Now, “The Pharisee Sabbath” might be fair to title, since they made a perversion of “the HOLY Sabbath.”


...

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 01:51 PM
And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.

Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

See previous reply in regards to Colossians 2.


A Jew (of the male variety) is certainly classified as a “man”. Well of course, the term is generic for all, including women - if the term is applied to Hebrews / Jews only, it is stated as such - the distinction was always made.


Please note the verse in question does not say Sabbath-keeping was given to all men of every age. Not to all ages, no, but was given to all men from the beginning, as I have already pointed out with the Hebrew and other scriptural messages, Post 1498270.


Why - because the command to keep the Sabbath was given only to the nation of Israel when the LORD gave the Ten Commandment Law to Moses at Sinai.False again, as already has been pointed out with more than one reference, in previous posts in this thread. Because Israel was the chosen, it was particularly more important for them to be a holy people - they are held to higher standards - you never heard of Hebrew International Hot Dogs, “we answer to a HIGHER Authority”??? :D


You came down also upon mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them right ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments, and made known unto them your holy sabbath, and commanded them commandments, and statutes, and a law, by Moses your servant” (Nehemiah 9:14)Please tell me that you know who the “You” (came down...) and “your” (HOLY Sabbath… as you CORRECTLY quote and stagger my senses) is referring to, and that you are not swapping “YHWH” for “MOSHEH”; you are not swapping sacredness for materialistic-physical here, are you? If you look at 8:9-12, perhaps you will know why that is there?


If Sabbath-keeping was a universal practice from Adam until Moses as Sabbatarians want us to believe (and it was not) – why did Moses have to “make known” to the Israelites the “holy Sabbath” why didn’t they already know about this command? The simple answer is that God had not commanded anyone to “keep” the Sabbath before the Law given at Sinai – and that “law” was given only to the Israelites.Again, we are called Christians, Messianic, and even Jews. In here, you are at least mostly conversing with Christians and Messianic. The fact that some sect took advantage at a Roman flaw is moot to me. All strange heterorthodoxy sects have some elements of truth, and they may adjust some Roman pollution, but may pollute other things. Even the orthodox probably has a few bumps here and there.

And Again, the Israelites were in 400 years bondage. Again, see Exodus 16, BEFORE the 10 commandments, which shows us how important the Holy Sabbath is. YHWH raised up Mosheh, and was him always, and we know he was remarkable in Egypt. See Jasher 70:40-50 where Mosheh was granted the right to give the Israelites a seventh day of rest (I’ll Post the Jasher passages later). And besides, the world did not start out as “Israelites”. After 400 years of bondage, they needed to be refreshed about some things, just like any of us would after centuries of bondage - apparently, since the HOLY Sabbath came before the 10 commandments, and the 600+ commandments for the Israelites, shows us its importance and priority.


Can Ebenezer explain this?I can. Perhaps you should send Ebenezer your reworked texts so s/he will understand you better?


Can he explain why there are no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath before Moses? The Patriarchs were given specific instructions from God regarding altar construction, animal sacrifices, tithing, priests, circumcision, etc, etc but there is not one reference in Genesis about the command to “keep the Sabbath”? Why – because God never commanded Sabbath-keeping for the Patriarchs or any of the Gentile nations – it was given exclusively to the Hebrew nation.He can’t explain it because your conveyances are unreal, and Ebenezer probably has the WHOLE Bible with no “reworking”, or in the least, very little.


And just as Ebenezer cannot explain that enigma, he also cannot explain why there is not one command given to Christians to keep the Sabbath in the NT.

Scripture learning is a long process. [EDIT: Removed phrase:"- and those whom cling on to home-made doctrines of men on students that are early in that process", and because I forgot the complete the sentence which made it appear troubling to "new" students of the Bible - Apologies anything assumed for this error on my part]

How can Ebenezer explain a non-existing “enigma” - perhaps Ebenezer chooses the council of YHWH over the council of men, as so many of us here do? And what do you mean, “there is not one command given to Christians to keep the Sabbath in the NT.” ??? You quoted Nehemiah from the Tanach (OT) which is also of THE HOLY BIBLE - how is it, that all of the sudden, The Tanach is missing? Christ not only made it clearly more than once (I pointed out one passage in this reply), but EXPOUNDED upon the commandments, and enhanced them, on which ALL of the commandments and prophets hang. There is no reason to give a commandment already in existence for millennia after millennia - so it was ALREADY there - perversions were corrected and enhanced (the way they were supposed to be along - the Oral Law appears to have had some failings). No where in the CGS does He “remove” or “subtract” from the 10 Commandments - the text reveals an ADDITION to that already existing.


These facts alone do irreparable damage to the notion that Sabbath-keeping was give to all of God’s people for all time.In our dictionaries it’s called “fallacies” - which do not do irreparable damage of the such, no matter how much man attempts to do so. Besides, after all these thousands of years, whom among us “Gentiles” can honestly say we are 100% Gentile, with no Jewish linage or blood at all? So it makes sense that YHWH made the Seventh day Holy (Genesis 2:2) from the beginning. The Israelites were put on alert about it, before even the 10 commandments were given (by the way, they actually got 613 commandments unlike Gentiles) - before Sinai, there were the 7 Noahaic Commandments - it was already “common” for a man to rest (as Health Professionals will tell you that you should rest after so many days of work), since it is natural of the flesh. And by now, Gentile and Jewish blood is all over the place.


It wasn't.Already proven incorrect in previous posts in this thread.

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 01:55 PM
.
So, you are right my friend, the sabbath was never done away with. Christ did become the substance of the shadow of sabbath. And when we are kept by Christ, we enter into His rest, which surpasses all understanding...:pp

Hebrews Chapter 4?

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 01:57 PM
Christians are under the new covenant and there is no command to keep the Sabbath in the new covenant – we are under the “law of liberty” which states (among other things) that we shall love our neighbors as ourselves which would prohibit “coveting and adultery”.:)


Which Greek Word do you feel is underlying the word "new" in this context?

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 02:09 PM
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Exactly - "all" of them.


The Sabbath was not given to the N.T. Church, it was given to Israel.

"N.T. Church" ?:confused

There can be no such thing in the integral sense - if a "N.T. Church" is not also an "O.T. Church", how can it be a Christian "Holy Bible Church"?


Jesus kept the Sabbath and the feasts because He was born a Jew, born under the law, that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from its penalty and bondage (Galatians 4:4; Romans 9:5).

From the debt and penalty, but not from the observance of the 10 commandments, which were already long in effect - they were clarified, enhanced, and improved. ;)

If we Gentiles are adopted, we are in the house of Israel. And for the record, like marriage, the seventh day was instituted in the beginning (Genesis 2:2,3). See also Ex. 16:25-30, which they were reminded of the Seventh day - 400 years of bondage would make any nationality lose site of what was, in many aspects - including morals and laws, observances, etc.;)

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 02:17 PM
Clifton :hug:

Thank you for taking my post in the positive way.

The snippet i was referring to is this:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

It is also interesting to note that the command is 2 fold, to work and labor 6 days, and then to rest on the 7th.

IOW we labor 6 days to meet all the demands and needs of living in this fallen world, and on the 7th we "rest" not from His works, but from ours.

Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

Shalom,
Tanja

Apologies for the delay of reply. Thanks for the reference. Actually, while that was not what I was referring to, I am quite good in regards to verb parsings. ;)


In reference to Exodus 20:10, I see the phrase "or the sojourner who is within your gates." is in your Bible(s) too.:)

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 02:27 PM
...Did the children of Israel have this same freedom under the Law of Moses to keep or to not keep the Sabbath or could they be put to death for failing to keep the fourth commandment?
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron and unto all the congregation.... And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp (Num. 15:32-33,35)...The discussion is about the Sabbath being kept Holy in the 10 commandments, not the 600+ commandments (or Law Of Moses), and as to whether the 7th day (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown) is the Sabbath, and by no means was "changed" by Christ, which it was not, as we see when we keep the Holy Bible in context.

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 02:34 PM
There is no problem with those who to choose to enjoy the Sabbath – I enjoy the Sabbath – I think we are on the same page in that regard. The problem that is presented on this thread is with those who insist that Christians must “keep the Sabbath” as an act of obedience to the Law of Moses – a law given only to the Israelites and a law that is no longer applicable to God’s people. :)


No, not to the "law of Moses" (600+ commandments) but to the moral Law of YHWH, the 10 commandments. ;) which for the most part, were already adhered to - and there also the Noahaic Commandments (7), which is not so obvious in the translations of the Bible.

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 02:38 PM
Our eyes must be on Yeshua and our focus MUST be LOVE! That is the point. It ALL hangs upon LOVE! That must be the motivation. Everything Yeshua ever said or did upholds the commandments of the Father, because He loves the Father and is loved by the Father. He came to correct centuries of misinterpretation and if you look at how He walked out Torah to perfection you will see a picture of what the Father intended Torah to be. Not a burden but a blessing!

God Bless!


:amen: and :amen: and :amen:

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 03:09 PM
...I didn’t read the entire article. But since it appears your argument is for keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath, and believe it is unbiblical to call Sunday the Sabbath and worship on Sunday, I will keep my reply focused on this part of your article.

Agreed - we can worship any day - everyday - groups meet at various days.



Hebrews shows us the New Covenant Sabbath in the Lord. There is a rest (4520. Sabbatismosa - from a derivative of 4521; "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):--rest.) to the people of God who have entered into His rest. As properly noted, 4520 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=4520) is a derivative of 4521 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=4521), the word primarily referring the current Holy Sabbath / Seventh Day. There are two Hebrew words as well. What I did, beginning back in 2006, was an extensive study, not on the observance of the Sabbath day itself, after all, we know our bodies need rest. I wanted to know "which day is it really?" (which this thread is about).

I began thorough studies back in 2006 upon the Greek word 4521 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=4521). At this point and time, I cannot comment too much upon 4520 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=4520) too much yet...

*******
EDIT: I had 4520 and 4521 transposed.
4520 is used only once in the Bible, Hebrews 4:9.
*******


Since we enter into His rest/His Sabbath when we become saved, we are to cease from doing our own works of the law for forgiveness, even as God did from His after creation.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. ... however, I can note that Hebrews 4 has a duplex meaning ... it refers to an inner rest of the final rest which comes when all things are accomplished for this world, (the final rest in Heaven).


The Mosaic ceremonial laws became obsolete when Christ went to the cross and the veil of the temple was rent. But the Jews continued to observe these ceremonial laws as long as the first Tabernacle remained standing. It was only after the total destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple that the OT ceremonial laws completely ended. But the Sabbath for the Jews was their keeping of the Seventh Day Sabbath according to the Laws given THEM by God.

As a New Covenant Christian I make every effort to keep the Lord’s Sabbath which is not limited to one particular day of the week. The fact that I worship on Sunday is important and originated because this is the day the Lord resurrected from the dead, and made eternal life a reality for all who receive faith to believe on Him. We can also find biblical confirmation for worshiping our risen Lord on the first day of the week as opposed to the seventh. But because of poor translation this is difficult to see.Actually, according to the writings of Eusebius, both Friday and Sunday were in esteem - the crucifixion - raised from the dead ;)


Look carefully at this verse from the gospel of Matthew. We see an end coming to the Sabbath. The word day being italicized means it is added for easier reading, but was not in the original language. Finally the word translated “week” is the same exact word that has been translated Sabbath. Why the translators translated the same Greek word differently is unknown. Therefore the true reading of this passage shows us that one era of Sabbath keeping was ending and another era of Sabbath keeping began. It would not be improper to translate this passage thus, In the end of the Sabbath, as it begin to dawn toward the first of the Sabbath, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mt 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week [Sabbath], came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. I have, "¶ But after the sabbaths, at the dawning of the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the grave."

I checked the Greek - 4521 is used here indeed, but it is in the plural, both times. Also, keep in mind, the dawning was different back then - it began usually about 6 PM, not AM the next morning. ;)


The Greek word translated Sabbath; 4521. Sabbaton - of Hebrew origin (7676); the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:--sabbath (day), week.On the Issue of the Hebrew word, 07676 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07676), it is derived from 07673 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07673), which is first used in Genesis 2:2, a shorter word for a holy time of rest. ;)

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 03:24 PM
LH, I would consider it dishonest to use Spurgeon as an example in your case.

From Spurgeon's Catechism, 1855:

I have a lot of Spurgeon's Stuff in Online Bible Modules. Great Stuff. But I think he held to the "shift" of the Sabbath day one day forward, as began back in the 2nd Century (perhaps early as 98 A.D.) - or should I say, a day-in-a-half forward? :)

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 03:41 PM
“The seventh day sabbath could not be a “shadow of things to come” as the sabbath was instituted before sin and there could NOT be shadows before sin existed. It doesn’t even make sense, what would the sabbath be a shadow of? And why would people before Christ’s time need rest but those of us after not need rest? Or is it, we just get to pick our own day now? None of this makes sense and whats more it isn’t biblical.”

Funny--this passage jumped out at me when I scanned the original article.

I'll maintain here that sin did already exist by the seventh day of creation. God had separated light from darkness before this, and that darkness contained sin. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5).

Actually, that is read as “which are (not “were”) a shadow of the coming, (not “gone”, nor even “going away” for that matter), but the body Of Christ”. ;) EDIT: I meant to mention here that this statement is in response to what I have witnessed on the Internet.;)

A small snippet from the WDNT Greek Dictionary for σκια, 4639 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=4639), (shadow):

(II) Metaphorically, a foreshadowing, in distinction from to soma (4983 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=4983)), the body (or reality), and he eikon (1504 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1504)), the full and perfect image; so also of the Jewish rites and dispensation as prefiguring things future and more perfect (Col. 2:17; Heb. 8:5, 10:1)

Keep on shining! :)

Clifton
Jan 16th 2008, 04:12 PM
Then you must completely disregard the word of God - Colossians 2:16-17 reads, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”



On what authority do you have to state to another, “Then you must completely disregard the word of God” ?

I doubt anyone here is doing such “completely” - we may wish to overlook ‘love your enemies’ when it comes to terrorists, etc.

Robertson’s Word Pictures:
Col 2:16 -
Let no one judge you (metis humas krineto). Prohibition present active imperative third singular, forbidding the habit of passing judgment in such matters. For krino see note on Mat_7:1. Paul has here in mind the ascetic regulations and practices of one wing of the Gnostics (possibly Essenic or even Pharisaic influence). He makes a plea for freedom in such matters on a par with that in 1 Corinthians 8-9; Romans 14; 15. The Essenes went far beyond the Mosaic regulations. For the Jewish feasts see note on Gal_4:10. Josephus (Ant. III. 10, 1) expressly explains the “seventh day” as called “sabbata” (plural form as here, an effort to transliterate the Aramaic sabbathah).
You have to know some history when it comes to the Pauline and Catholic Epistles - and Christ did not state any of the such (as far as we have record of) in the manner of how some misinterpret passages like this (IOW, it is not "Paul" over "Christ" - Paul did not work that way). Also bear in mind that Paul's writings were not considered "Scriptures" well into the last half of the 2nd Century, if not later. It was the "scriptures" (which the NT refers to) which were only The OT. Later, there came the Memoirs (now known as the Gospels).

Studyin'2Show
Jan 16th 2008, 06:25 PM
I felt the need to post just so it won't seem like Clifton is talking to himself! :lol:

Theophilus
Jan 16th 2008, 06:27 PM
I felt the need to post just so it won't seem like Clifton is talking to himself! :lol:
S2S, you are the epitome of graciousness...:D

losthorizon
Jan 17th 2008, 02:55 AM
...It was the debt paid (“nailed to the Cross”) and the sacrificial lamb that has completed / accomplished. The debt was the penalty, of course, while we are not put to death for disobeying The Law, if we break one, we break them all - you are adding to one section and removing from another...

There is no reason to beat a dead horse – after 11 pages most avenues have been presented for review on this subject. The main question to be answered is whether or not the fourth commandment of the Decalogue – the command from God to the Israelites to “remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy” -- is binding on Christians who live under the new covenant. If the command is binding on Christians as many of our Sabbatarian friends insist then we must all keep that day holy – it is not a mater of conscience it is a matter of obedience to God’s Law.

There are examples of those Jews who lived under the Law of Moses who were stoned to death for not keeping the Sabbath. But not only are there no commands found in the NT for Christians to “keep the Sabbath” we are specifically warned to “let no man judge you in ... holy days or Sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come.” Jesus is the “Lord of the Sabbath” – He is the reality of which the Sabbath was only a shadow and He nowhere commanded Sabbath-keeping for Christians.

When we go back and review the OT the first mention we see of God commanding man to “keep the Sabbath” as a holy day is found at the time in history when the Israelites were led out of Egypt by Moses per the record in Exodus. You have provided no scriptural support that Adam, Job, Abraham, Noah or any other OT personage who lived prior to Moses was ever commanded to keep the seventh day holy to the LORD. Why – because no such command exists. You have never provided one scriptural support that illustrates where God ever commanded one Gentile to keep the Sabbath holy. You have never provided any NT documentation requiring Christians today to keep the Sabbath as a matter of Law.

There are many on this thread who have expressed their love of the Sabbath and their choice to “keep the Sabbath” as a matter of conscience and to them I say – amen! I rest on the Sabbath as a mater of health and well-being and because it was the day God rested from His creation. But the Law that required the keeping of the Sabbath - the “Law of Moses” along with the entire Mosaical worship service to God (animal sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, etc) was nailed to the cross and as a system of worship it died on the cross. The "old law" is no longer binding on God’s people. After the cross - when Jesus became our “Great High Priest” in the heavenly tabernacle at the right hand of God there was a change not only in the priesthood but also in the law itself – “when the priesthood changes, a change of Law also of necessity takes place…” Christians live under the "Law of Christ" - not the "Law of Moses". And the "Law of Christ" does not require Sabbath-keeping.

Those who insist that Sabbath-keeping is binding on Christians today do not understand that we have “been delivered by Christ…from the observances of the law.” They fail to realize that by the blood of Christ we have been delivered from the burden of the Mosaical Law which included keeping the Sabbath and no man has the “right to impose that on you as a burden from which he has made you free”… so the advice found in Holy Writ is this - “stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” The old law was the yoke of bondage...
Let no man, therefore, judge you…the word judge here is used in the sense of pronouncing a sentence. The meaning is, "since you have thus been delivered by Christ from the evils which surrounded you: since you have been freed from the observances of the law, let no one sit in judgment on you, or claim the right to decide for you in those matters. You are not responsible to man for your conduct, but to Christ; and no man has a right to impose that on you as a burden from which he has made you free." ~ Albert Barnes, Colossians 2:16

SIG
Jan 17th 2008, 06:34 AM
Then you must completely disregard the word of God - Colossians 2:16-17 reads, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

Please note – the passage plainly says “the sabbath days… are a shadow of things to come” – it can’t be any more obvious. The Sabbath was a "shadow" of the "reality" and the reality is the “Heavenly Rest” we share with our Creator that begins when we enter into His presence through the blood of Christ – when we are found to be “in Christ Jesus”.

The Sabbath was blessed by God at the Creation but there is no record that He revealed this fact to mankind until the Law was given to Moses at Sinai. There is no record of the Patriarchs keeping the Sabbath because it was never revealed to them and they were never commanded to keep the Sabbath. Sabbath keeping was to a sign between God and the children of Israel only. It was never commanded for Gentiles to “keep”.
"My rest," says God: the rest of God! Something more wonderful than any other kind of rest. In my text it is (in the original) called the Sabbatism—not the Sabbath, but the rest of the Sabbath—not the outward ritual of the Sabbath, which was binding upon the Jew, but the inward spirit of the sabbath, which is the joy and delight of the Christian. "There remaineth therefore"—because others have not had it, because some are to have it—"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

Now, this rest, I believe, is partly enjoyed on earth. "We that have believed do enter into rest," for we have ceased from our own works, as God did from his. But the full fruition and rich enjoyment of it remains in the future and eternal state of the beatified on the other side the stream of death.” ~ C. H. Spurgeon, from the sermon “Heavenly Rest”

SIG: The passage cited, which you are referring to, was not mine; it is a quote I disagreed with. See my comment below it in post 121...

(Tried to find the article I was quoting; it was a link way back on page 1 which has been deleted. And so on...)

losthorizon
Jan 17th 2008, 01:30 PM
SIG: The passage cited, which you are referring to, was not mine; it is a quote I disagreed with. See my comment below it in post 121...

(Tried to find the article I was quoting; it was a link way back on page 1 which has been deleted. And so on...)
Thanks for the clarification. The person who originally posted the link must be associated with the SDA as it is straight out of their training manual. :)

Studyin'2Show
Jan 17th 2008, 01:47 PM
Okay, last warning! Any more SDA references and this thread's getting shut down! Take that over to World Religions.Well, just like when I warn my kids I have to follow through, even if it's just a little thing :rolleyes: this thread is now closed! Anyway, I think it had pretty much run its course.

God Bless!