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Redeemed by Grace
Jan 11th 2008, 12:38 AM
Does Repentance Play a Part in Being Saved?

Part 2 from the “Does obedience save” thread…. BUT the big difference is from a human perspective -- in that does man respond with/in faith and repentance, or just with/in faith, or with no response required, just accept?

th1bill
Jan 11th 2008, 01:06 AM
Does Repentance Play a Part in Being Saved?

Part 2 from the “Does obedience save” thread…. BUT the big difference is from a human perspective -- in that does man respond with/in faith and repentance, or just with/in faith, or with no response required, just accept?
I am not the expert on salvation and all I can tell you is what happened to me. God spoke to me and I accepted His grace. This happened on stage one night as I was entertaining. I walked out of the place without finishing the gig and did not get paid. The next day was Sunday, I went to church and the Holy Spirit led me into repentance from that point forward. I was a filthy mouthed drunken, doped up country singer and that's the condition I walked into the church in. God says come as you are and He does the scrubbing, that's my take on it.

DeafPosttrib
Jan 11th 2008, 01:16 AM
Abosulately, yes! Repentance is required for salvation.

Baptists' wrong method of soul winning method - "Easy Believism".

Many Baptiat saying repentance is not necesscary for salvation, just only believe in Jesus then be saved, that's it.

Many people are not truly show their fruit, because they did not repent of their sins and life. They say in their old ways.

But, every Christians ought to stay walk in the light daily, do not turn away.

Ezekiel 18:20-28 mentioned on repentance. Verse 24 warns if a saved person turn away from righteous life, and return to sins, shall bring to death(spiritual).

Bible commands us that we all must repent of sins. It is require for salvation, because God is holy.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Clifton
Jan 11th 2008, 01:52 AM
Does Repentance Play a Part in Being Saved?

Part 2 from the “Does obedience save” thread…. BUT the big difference is from a human perspective -- in that does man respond with/in faith and repentance, or just with/in faith, or with no response required, just accept?

In reference to "repent" by Christ, The Greek is in the IMPERATIVE, which means it is a command - not an invitation.

DeafPosttrib
Jan 11th 2008, 02:26 AM
When Christ beguns his ministry, He commanded them to repent, or perish. - Mark 1:15; Luke 13:5 Repentance is a command from Christ. So, therefore, repentance is require for salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

AlainaJ
Jan 11th 2008, 02:42 AM
Repentace for me came as the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins. I changed my mind about those things and began to desire the things of God.

But, when I first ask Jesus to save me......I realized I was a sinner destined to burn in Hell. I didn't know of all my many individual sins...that was what God began to show me after salvation. I beleive that is part of sanctification.

Every day, the Holy Spirit shows me things in my life.....when I feel that conviction, I repent, knowing that thing is greiving God.

Hope that helps or makes sense.:)

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 11th 2008, 03:05 AM
Are we really goint o go through this again??

No, but faith without repentance is not real faith.

Chicken or the egg?

Or better yet, what is the difference between a broomstick?

watchinginawe
Jan 11th 2008, 06:49 AM
Does Repentance Play a Part in Being Saved?

Part 2 from the “Does obedience save” thread…. BUT the big difference is from a human perspective -- in that does man respond with/in faith and repentance, or just with/in faith, or with no response required, just accept?In my opinion, repentance is absolutely required (is part of) salvation. There are probably many levels to this, but I will only dwell on the simplest form of repentance.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Now, by changing from an unbeliever to a believer, one must repent of their wrong belief or unbelief. Said another way, one repents when their mind is changed regarding the Gospel and they believe. Therefore, if one was an unbeliever and becomes a believer, they have repented of their former belief or unbelief. Also, one who repents and believes the Gospel also has believed the neccessity of the Gospel and are convicted of their present condition (sin). This conviction of sin causes us to repent (or causes us to understand we are wrong and change our mind) and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When we believe the Gospel, we turn toward God and place our faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

I personally don't understand the term "easy believism". It infers that proper belief is ... "hard believism"? :dunno: Maybe "easy believism" is really more like "professionism" where belief doesn't seem required but rather a spoken prayer or profession of belief but without repentance (true belief). In these cases faith doesn't follow because one's heart and mind hasn't changed regarding the Gospel at some level.

God Bless!

Soj
Jan 11th 2008, 08:46 AM
Does Repentance Play a Part in Being Saved?

Part 2 from the “Does obedience save” thread…. BUT the big difference is from a human perspective -- in that does man respond with/in faith and repentance, or just with/in faith, or with no response required, just accept?If repentance is a 'work' then no it is not required to be saved, but if repentance is not a work and is incorporated into our faith and belief in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, then yes it is required.

Repentance is often defined as a literal turning away from something and toward another, which is a work, and in our case it would be away from sin towards righteousness...BUT, I believe that true repentance is a "change of mind" which, if true, is not a work and can be accepted as part of our salvation. So I say yes, repentance does play a part in our salvation and is a requirement.

I am an Independent *Baptist* btw!

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 11th 2008, 09:16 AM
Should we define salvation first? Are you referring to the past, present, or future salvation?

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 11th 2008, 11:16 AM
Should we define salvation first? Are you referring to the past, present, or future salvation?


Thought knowledge of what salvation is was a given.... :hmm:


Care to explain why you see it based on time?

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 11th 2008, 12:06 PM
Thought knowledge of what salvation is was a given.... :hmm:


Care to explain why you see it based on time?
Well the Bible refers to us having been saved, being saved, and that we will be saved. Since all three fall in the category described as 'salvation', I wonder which you are referring to in this discussion.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 11th 2008, 12:14 PM
Well the Bible refers to us having been saved, being saved, and that we will be saved. Since all three fall in the category described as 'salvation', I wonder which you are referring to in this discussion.



Thanks for the clarification.... to that end, I don't see that it makes any difference, do you?

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 11th 2008, 12:47 PM
Thanks for the clarification.... to that end, I don't see that it makes any difference, do you?
Well, in all three cases I would answer it with a solid 'yes', but another's perspective might not be the same. So I ask for clarification as to the intent of the original question, that is all.

ProjectPeter
Jan 11th 2008, 12:51 PM
Acts 17:29 "Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Acts 26:19 "Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.


Simple answer.... YES.

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2008, 12:53 PM
Salvation is best understood as a covenant relationship between Christ and his church. The closest relationship we have to covenant today is marriage. If John asked Sue to marry him and she said "Sure, but I still want to date Jack" how would John react? When one accepts Christ, Jesus knows the heart fully. He knows if Jack (sin) is still loved and in the picture. When one moves towards God, one moves away from sin. Trusting God by default moves one away from sin. A repentance towards God in belief, is a repentance away from sin in belief. They are two sides to the same coin. If one repents towards God but not sin, then repentance towards God has not happened.

Anyway, back to the marriage example... For us, we cannot tell if another's heart is sincere, honest, pure, etc. But Christ can. When he proposes, he may not deal with the individual at all about sin because he knows the issues of the heart. On the other hand, he may deal with the person about a particular sin or a couple of sins. But in the end, rest assured, that we cannot be married to Christ and our sin at the same time.

DeafPosttrib
Jan 11th 2008, 03:27 PM
My understanding of repentance means, change life, quit sins, turn around and to follow Christ. Repentance is our responsible to answer God's calling, we are not God's robot. Truly, we are God's elect, but in 2 Peter 1:10 tells us, we have to make sure our calling and election IF we DO these things, we shall not fall away.

In Ezekiel chapter 18 mentioned lot about repentence. Repentance is same as 'turn'. We are commanded to repent from sins, and to follow Christ. Many of them did turned from sins, and to follow Christ but, for a while, then turn away from God, then God is not pleasure with them. If we stop walk in light, then we shall die- spiritual, where our die will lead to? To hell, then will bring us to second death - lake of fire at the judgment day.

Repentance is a command from God for require of salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

CoffeeBeaned
Jan 11th 2008, 04:03 PM
Here is the entry from Vine's as to what repentence is:

Repent, Repentance:
lit., "to perceive afterwards" (meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive;" nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection"), in contrast to pronoeo, "to perceive beforehand," hence signifies "to change one's mind or purpose," always, in the NT, involving a change for the better, an amendment, and always, except in Luk 17:3 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=17&v=3#3),4 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=17&v=4#4), of "repentance" from sin. The word is found in the Synoptic Gospels (in Luke, nine times), in Acts five times, in the Apocalypse twelve times, eight in the messages to the churches, Rev 2:5 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=2&v=5#5) (twice),16,21 (twice), RV, "she willeth not to repent" (2nd part); Rev 3:3 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=3&v=3#3),19 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=3&v=19#19) (the only churches in those chapters which contain no exhortation in this respect are those at Smyrna and Philadelphia); elsewhere only in 2Cr 12:21 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=12&v=21#21). See also the general Note below.

I would say that we definitely must "change our minds" to follow Christ instead of following the world. So my answer is YES.

Buck shot
Jan 11th 2008, 04:46 PM
Does Repentance Play a Part in Being Saved?

An one came before Christ (John the "baptist") in the wilderness preaching repentance. I think we must know that we are in the wrong before we can ask for forgiveness. If we know we are wrong and we willfully want to do right we repent (turn from) and ask for forgiveness.

So my answer is YES :pp

Oh, by the way all what kind of baptist church teaches that you don't have to repent? I have been in many churches (probably in at least a hundred while traveling), and none that I know of have taught that.

Probably another one of those deals where the liberals are louder. I withdraw that statement before it starts something.

Frances
Jan 11th 2008, 06:19 PM
I agree with all those who have said 'No repentance = No Salvation'. Also, I believe I will only go on being Saved as long as I go on repenting as necessary. . . .

Bill's experience demonstrates how essential it is to be guided by Scripture and not by our own understanding. I suggest he had turned away(repented) from his lifestyle to Christ before coming to full realisation the following day.

John146
Jan 11th 2008, 09:34 PM
Does Repentance Play a Part in Being Saved?

Part 2 from the “Does obedience save” thread…. BUT the big difference is from a human perspective -- in that does man respond with/in faith and repentance, or just with/in faith, or with no response required, just accept?

Yes, it does.

9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. - 2 Cor 7:9-10

Debra R
Jan 12th 2008, 04:18 AM
Yes, repentance does play a part in salvation...a big part.........
It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin............

John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

There has to be an acknowledgment of sin... the separation of you and God because of sin.........repentance of that sin...........desire to change and follow Christ.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 12th 2008, 04:53 AM
Repentance=teshuava is the first step to obediance in recognising our sin and turning into the ways of God

How does this happen?

God says come as you are and He does the scrubbing, that's my take on it.

The Word of God in all of the instructions given to us, not just as a moral manual given to us, but also as a Law and guideline in what He expects us to do, is how we know what God wants us to do, and how to live a Godly life.

Without repentance, which is the precursor to acting out our faith not just in words but in deed, there is no salvation.

Shalom,
Tanja

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 12th 2008, 02:02 PM
Whew... Praise God that folks are seeing that Faith and Repentance go hand in hand... I have to say I was a bit worried that folks here might not see this as being true, and this thread like the obedeince thread would go down multiple paths of understanding.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2008, 02:30 PM
It is still fascinating though. It is certainly a great lesson in religious speak and how it's really gotten into most every aspect of our doctrines.

It is like the question game... Does obedience save? Well certainly only God saves and that was the simple answer but a simple answer was sacrificed for a point. Hey though... tis the nature of new mediums now days. Maybe I'll do something on this in the blog. :lol:

Jude1:21
Jan 12th 2008, 03:05 PM
Absolutely repentence is one of the cornerstones of the Christian faith.
Jesus Christ can only forgive one of their sins if that person asks Him for to forgive ones sin

Luke13:3. I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Acts3:19. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord

2Peter3:9.The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

There are many pieces of scripture telling us the importance of repentence,I have shown just 3 of them.

CanuckMedic
Jan 12th 2008, 03:22 PM
Many Baptiat saying repentance is not necesscary for salvation, just only believe in Jesus then be saved, that's it.

Many people are not truly show their fruit, because they did not repent of their sins and life. They say in their old ways.

But, every Christians ought to stay walk in the light daily, do not turn away.

Ezekiel 18:20-28 mentioned on repentance. Verse 24 warns if a saved person turn away from righteous life, and return to sins, shall bring to death(spiritual).

Bible commands us that we all must repent of sins. It is require for salvation, because God is holy.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I thought repentance was a gift from God as well...

Confusing. How can it be so confusing?

Which comes first repentance or belief? Is repentance something we do, or is it a gift of God? Can we repent without believing? Can we believe without repenting? Is confession the same as repentance?

It seems like repentance is something we must do, prior to salvation.

Debra R
Jan 12th 2008, 05:00 PM
Absolutely repentence is one of the cornerstones of the Christian faith.
Jesus Christ can only forgive one of their sins if that person asks Him for to forgive ones sin

Luke13:3. I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Acts3:19. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord

2Peter3:9.The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

There are many pieces of scripture telling us the importance of repentence,I have shown just 3 of them.

I had thought about those and there are lots of verses on repentance. Thanks for posting them. :)

BadDog
Jan 13th 2008, 06:57 AM
Does Repentance Play a Part in Being Saved?

Part 2 from the “Does obedience save” thread…. BUT the big difference is from a human perspective -- in that does man respond with/in faith and repentance, or just with/in faith, or with no response required, just accept?RbG,

Good thread. I don't have time to comment now, but I am posting this so that I will get an email reminder to do so later. :P

I will merely say that IMO most people view "repentance"/"to repent" in a manner that does not do justice to lexicons. It essentially means to "change your mind." Now IMO that usually has to do with regard to sin. But the key is that METANOIA/METANOEW (Greek noun and verb most often translated as "repent") focuses on the mind and heart - not the actions, regardless of what many well-meaning pastors say.

BD

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2008, 05:03 PM
And very simple.... one cannot possibly change their minds and heart without changing their actions. If there is a heart and mind change about sin for example... there would have to be a change of actions because the heart and mind has changed.

Mograce2U
Jan 13th 2008, 06:11 PM
When the word of God is presented the requirement for our justification is to agree with it. If we continue to justify our sins then we cannot be justified by God to receive forgiveness for them, because we have not agreed with God. Repentance is therefore necessary to bring the man to saving faith. That is the evidence of his humbled and contrite heart which the Lord will bless.

The "easy believism" method of evangelism we see today, wants to bring assurance of forgiveness without taking this step. I have seen too often the result of this method is that one does not forsake his favorite sins yet professes that he is "saved" from them. Sin has consequences, and if the fruit of one's profession is bad, how can he expect that the curse is not still upon him when those consequences & misery continue?

The evidence one has repented is to believe the word of God and forsake the sin that has him bound by the power of the Spirit that he has received. If this power to overcome is non-existent in his life then his profession of being born from above is spurious as well. Continuing to be bound by one's sin because one still loves it, is not the gospel message, especially when self-justification is still on going too.

A heart that is converted by the power of the word of God it has received begins immediately to bear the fruit of that transformation. I hear many whose testimony is worldly sorrow for the "loss" of the permission to sin, but who have no joy in being freed from it. They are often the ones whose "testimony" is all about how sinful they were and they glory in reliving those days and all the details. True repentance ends with joy and godly sorrow for having been so foolish for so long. The last thing the true believer desires to do, is go back to that life or dwell any longer in the sin that he has been set free from. And he certainly doesn't revel in their memory either.

If the love for the Word of God has entered into the heart, that Word will have preeminence in all that man desires from then on. The Spirit will renew his mind to turn him to the things of God and teach him to walk in those things. And his testimony will be that the grace and mercy of God has indeed changed him as he grows in his understanding of what pleases the Lord. If that testimony is not there then neither has salvation come to that man, regardless of how religious he now seems to be.

My answer is yes.

RogerW
Jan 13th 2008, 06:57 PM
Yes, it does.

9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. - 2 Cor 7:9-10

Greetings John146,

2Co 7:9 ... for ye were made sorry after a godly manner
2Co 7:10 ... For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation

What does it mean to be made sorry after a godly manner? or How is one made sorry after a godly manner? And what godly sorrow works repentance to salvation?

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2008, 07:14 PM
Greetings John146,

2Co 7:9 ... for ye were made sorry after a godly manner
2Co 7:10 ... For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation

What does it mean to be made sorry after a godly manner? or How is one made sorry after a godly manner? And what godly sorrow works repentance to salvation?

Many Blessings,
RW
Intersting that in that passage, which is often used to further a doctrinal stand, the thing that brought that sorrow about was Paul's first letter to them. He sort of crawled them pretty hard. :)

That sorrow... led them to deal with a man in a difficult manner and deal with their own attitude towards sin. That was the work it accomplished.

mcgyver
Jan 14th 2008, 05:27 AM
Abosulately, yes! Repentance is required for salvation.

Baptists' wrong method of soul winning method - "Easy Believism".

Many Baptiat saying repentance is not necesscary for salvation, just only believe in Jesus then be saved, that's it.

Excerpt from The Baptist Faith and Message (as adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention 2000)

IV. Salvation Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.


A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.
Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.


Without repentance, there can be no salvation...Just wanted to set the record straight...;)

John146
Jan 14th 2008, 06:10 PM
Greetings John146,

2Co 7:9 ... for ye were made sorry after a godly manner
2Co 7:10 ... For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation

What does it mean to be made sorry after a godly manner? or How is one made sorry after a godly manner? And what godly sorrow works repentance to salvation?

Many Blessings,
RW

What is your experience, Roger? For me, I was convicted by the Holy Spirit of my sinful behavior and I was sorrowful for the way I had been living. I then confessed my sinfulness to the Lord and asked for mercy and forgiveness and surrendered my life to Him. My life hasn't been the same ever since. At that time, the Lord came into my life and changed me and made me a new creature and renewed my mind, just like the Scriptures speak about.

Eric

tgallison
Jan 15th 2008, 04:42 PM
Does Repentance Play a Part in Being Saved?

Part 2 from the “Does obedience save” thread…. BUT the big difference is from a human perspective -- in that does man respond with/in faith and repentance, or just with/in faith, or with no response required, just accept?

Redeemed

How do you arrive at the premise, that acceptance is not a response?

terrell

RogerW
Jan 15th 2008, 05:29 PM
What is your experience, Roger? For me, I was convicted by the Holy Spirit of my sinful behavior and I was sorrowful for the way I had been living. I then confessed my sinfulness to the Lord and asked for mercy and forgiveness and surrendered my life to Him. My life hasn't been the same ever since.

Greetings Eric,

So are you saying that the Holy Spirit did a supernatural work in you before you were able to respond in repentance, faith, and finally complete submission to Him?



At that time, the Lord came into my life and changed me and made me a new creature and renewed my mind, just like the Scriptures speak about.
Eric

"At that time"...after the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit? Would you not agree that the changed life, new creature, renewed mind is a process of sanctification after salvation, and not a requirement for salvation?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 15th 2008, 05:42 PM
Intersting that in that passage, which is often used to further a doctrinal stand, the thing that brought that sorrow about was Paul's first letter to them. He sort of crawled them pretty hard. :)

That sorrow... led them to deal with a man in a difficult manner and deal with their own attitude towards sin. That was the work it accomplished.

Greetings Ken,

I certainly can't disagree with that assessment. But Eric was using the passage in 2Co 7:9-10 in response to Rbg's op, "Does repentance play a role in being saved". I wanted to know if Eric was speaking of the initial act of salvation when we first believe, or the on-going act of obedience unto the final salvation being worked out in this life. I too believe that repentance is a necessary work in salvation. But I'm betting we differ in saying that this repentance is a result of salvation, and not a work after becoming saved initially...or the first progression/act of faith in salvation.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Jan 16th 2008, 03:05 PM
Greetings Ken,

I certainly can't disagree with that assessment. But Eric was using the passage in 2Co 7:9-10 in response to Rbg's op, "Does repentance play a role in being saved". I wanted to know if Eric was speaking of the initial act of salvation when we first believe, or the on-going act of obedience unto the final salvation being worked out in this life. I too believe that repentance is a necessary work in salvation. But I'm betting we differ in saying that this repentance is a result of salvation, and not a work after becoming saved initially...or the first progression/act of faith in salvation.

Many Blessings,
RW
Repentance comes before seeing how it means they had a change of mind... no longer following the world but following God. One has to repent... if not they've never gotten started. So it certainly isn't a result of... but the first step. Look at messages. Repent, turn to God. Not sure why we complicate things so much I suppose... but seems to be a simple thing.

Brother Mark
Jan 16th 2008, 03:40 PM
And very simple.... one cannot possibly change their minds and heart without changing their actions. If there is a heart and mind change about sin for example... there would have to be a change of actions because the heart and mind has changed.

This is true. But it might take time. In my own case, I was saved for 3 months before I was delivered from the sin I hated! Even now, it is a process. My mind changes first, then God changes my heart and actions. But initially, I hated sin because it was sending me to hell and I had NO power over it. Once I got saved, I felt relieved, but no victory came until I was a men's conference about 3 months out. I still hated the sin very, very much.

John146
Jan 16th 2008, 04:08 PM
Greetings Eric,

So are you saying that the Holy Spirit did a supernatural work in you before you were able to respond in repentance, faith, and finally complete submission to Him?

If you're asking if I believe the Holy Spirit did a work of regeneration in me beforehand then the answer is no. Regeneration occurs at the time we are born again. I believe all people have the ability to respond in repentance, faith and submission and my reasoning for that is because Scripture says that God desires none to perish (2 Peter 3:9), all to be saved(1 Tim 2:3-4) and whoever in the world believes in Christ will have eternal life (John 3:16) because Jesus died for the sins of the whole world(1 John 2:2).



"At that time"...after the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit? Would you not agree that the changed life, new creature, renewed mind is a process of sanctification after salvation, and not a requirement for salvation?

Many Blessings,
RW

Yes. I should have said something like "from that time on" instead. I certainly didn't mean to say that all those things happened instantaneously. Although I do think we are changed instantaneously (passing from spiritual death to spiritual life), but it takes time for the Holy Spirit to lead us to spiritual maturity, of course.

ProjectPeter
Jan 16th 2008, 04:13 PM
This is true. But it might take time. In my own case, I was saved for 3 months before I was delivered from the sin I hated! Even now, it is a process. My mind changes first, then God changes my heart and actions. But initially, I hated sin because it was sending me to hell and I had NO power over it. Once I got saved, I felt relieved, but no victory came until I was a men's conference about 3 months out. I still hated the sin very, very much.
But even that hate of sin signified a change of mind. That in itself was action which led to the ultimate deliverance.

Brother Mark
Jan 16th 2008, 06:45 PM
But even that hate of sin signified a change of mind. That in itself was action which led to the ultimate deliverance.

Yes it did! But, I hated sin long before I got saved. My repentance was a change of mind in trusting the Lord. For years I saw my sin as sending me to hell and begged God to forgive me. But forgiveness did not occur until I trusted him. So I repented a long time of sin but my repentance wasn't towards God. Once I trusted him and his character, the forgiveness came. Then, as I grew in understanding, I was saved from my sin. So for me, my biggest sin was one of unbelief though I did not know it at the time. I was too focused on other shortcomings that seemed monumental to me.

For some, they have to get lost before they can get saved. I am always amazed at people who think they can have their sin and Jesus. He knows the heart and one who struggles compared to one who embraces sin. People should know God hates sin and it will cost them their souls.

coolhandluke
Apr 26th 2008, 03:27 AM
When the word of God is presented the requirement for our justification is to agree with it. If we continue to justify our sins then we cannot be justified by God to receive forgiveness for them, because we have not agreed with God. Repentance is therefore necessary to bring the man to saving faith. That is the evidence of his humbled and contrite heart which the Lord will bless.

The "easy believism" method of evangelism we see today, wants to bring assurance of forgiveness without taking this step. I have seen too often the result of this method is that one does not forsake his favorite sins yet professes that he is "saved" from them. Sin has consequences, and if the fruit of one's profession is bad, how can he expect that the curse is not still upon him when those consequences & misery continue?

The evidence one has repented is to believe the word of God and forsake the sin that has him bound by the power of the Spirit that he has received. If this power to overcome is non-existent in his life then his profession of being born from above is spurious as well. Continuing to be bound by one's sin because one still loves it, is not the gospel message, especially when self-justification is still on going too.

A heart that is converted by the power of the word of God it has received begins immediately to bear the fruit of that transformation. I hear many whose testimony is worldly sorrow for the "loss" of the permission to sin, but who have no joy in being freed from it. They are often the ones whose "testimony" is all about how sinful they were and they glory in reliving those days and all the details. True repentance ends with joy and godly sorrow for having been so foolish for so long. The last thing the true believer desires to do, is go back to that life or dwell any longer in the sin that he has been set free from. And he certainly doesn't revel in their memory either.

If the love for the Word of God has entered into the heart, that Word will have preeminence in all that man desires from then on. The Spirit will renew his mind to turn him to the things of God and teach him to walk in those things. And his testimony will be that the grace and mercy of God has indeed changed him as he grows in his understanding of what pleases the Lord. If that testimony is not there then neither has salvation come to that man, regardless of how religious he now seems to be.

My answer is yes.

Romans 7
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

can we stop sinning or is it something that cant be stopped.

My heart's Desire
Apr 26th 2008, 03:39 AM
Repent - change of mind from unbelief to belief. You cannot be saved if you do not believe - faith.

Mograce2U
Apr 26th 2008, 04:01 AM
coolhandluke,
Paul doesn't stop with 7:25 but goes on to explain how the Lord gives us the power over the sins of the flesh. A renewed mind that walks according to the Spirit will not fall into temptation. This is why he thanks the Lord. If we could not walk according to the Spirit then Romans 7 would be the end of the matter. But that is not the case.

(Rom 8:9-14 KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. {10} And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. {11} But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. {12} Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. {13} For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. {14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.