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Pilgrimtozion
Jan 12th 2008, 12:04 PM
This morning, I came across a passage of Scripture that I find so fascinating that I cannot resist asking for your input and thoughts on this. We all know the passage in Revelation 20 that says Satan will be shut up for 1000 years. Between premills and amills, this is a hot issue because of the way both parties interpret the verse. Some say this passage stands on its own and has no other Scripture to back it up. My question to all of you is whether the following Scripture can be linked to this passage in Revelation 20:

"On that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth. They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and His glory will be before his elders." (Isaiah 24:21-23, ESV)

Reading the whole chapter, I cannot but conclude that this is dealing with the end-times. When I read about the earth being empty and desolate (verse 1), the earth staggering like a drunken man (verse 20), and the moon being confounded and the sun being ashamed (verse 23), I inadvertently think of Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation. The phrase "host of heaven" as used in verse 21 usually refers to angels. In this case, one need not be a theologian to conclude that Isaiah is referring to fallen angels. The fact that they are imprisoned in a pit together with the kings of the earth is an exceedingly interesting statement that will not let me go. The link to Revelation 20:2-3, where the dragon is thrown into the pit and shut up for a thousand years, is not hard to make.

In the same passage, it says that at that time, the Lord reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem. Could this be a Millenial reference? Notice the fact that the host of heaven and the kings of the earth and imprisoned first and only then punished after many days. I find it hard to see this from an amillenial perspective, since the reference to the moon and the sun, the staggering of the earth, etc. are so clearly apocalyptic.

What are your thoughts?

quiet dove
Jan 12th 2008, 06:30 PM
I would agree with you here. I have been studying Isaiah and trying to color code all the verses. It seems to me that vv 14,15,16 and 23 jump to the hope of the Millennial, but the rest seems like pretty much disaster and wrath upon the entire earth, if the earth staggers under this judgment, that to me does seem to relate to what we read in Revelation.

Christinme
Jan 13th 2008, 03:31 AM
If one looks in Luke 23 one sees that the moon was "confounded" and the sun was "ashamed" when Jesus was crucified.

Luke 23:44-46 Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two. And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, "into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.



After this we also see where Jesus says all authority has been given to Him ... so I would interpret that to be that He reigns everywhere.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."



And we do see Peter refer to then as the "last times" ...

1 Peter 1:20-21 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.



So from my understanding we are and have been in the last times ... not the end of the last times YET ... however the last times. And so Satan is already "locked" up ... and his final punishment will happen after he is released for a "short time".

quiet dove
Jan 13th 2008, 04:42 AM
"The sun was darkened" (Luke)compared to


Behold, the LORD will empty the earth .. make it desolate, ..twist its surface ..scatter its inhabitants. ..the earth shall be utterly empty ..utterly plundered;.. lies defiled under its inhabitants;.. curse devours the earth, ….… For thus it shall be in the midst of the earth among the nations, … terror and the pit and the snare are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth! …

the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is split apart, the earth is violently shaken. ..the earth staggers…; it sways like a hut; its transgression lies heavy upon it, and it falls, and will not rise again.

the inhabitants of the earth are scorched, and few men are left. …gladness of the earth is banished (Isaiah)

This is a more vivid description than is even found in Revelation.

Lou M.
Jan 13th 2008, 11:13 AM
Pilgrim,

I beleive that the same Word that brought destruction upon this earth in the day of Noah is the same Word that will accomplish the same effect as given by 2 Peter 3 and as spoken by the same Word through the prophets.
Study and understand:

"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples (the pattern, the die) : and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 14th 2008, 08:05 AM
Any more ideas about this? What about the avid debaters such as Paul, Third Hero, John146 and the likes?

quiet dove
Jan 14th 2008, 03:56 PM
Any more ideas about this? What about the avid debaters such as Paul, Third Hero, John146 and the likes?

Ok, well.....I see where I stand now.


Do I even matter??:rofl:

You know I playing:P

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 14th 2008, 05:13 PM
LOL...You're cool QD! I just want some more amills to pipe in and give me some more feedback on their position, you know?

As for Christinme's response: I concur with QD. The description in Isaiah 24 has enough elements that as far as I'm concerned are not applicable to Jesus' first coming but to His second. BTW, I don't see anything in Luke 23 about the moon...

John146
Jan 14th 2008, 07:17 PM
I'm taking a close look at the chapter, which I haven't really done before, so bare with me. For now I'll just say that it appears to coincide with the day of the Lord, as spoken about in 2 Peter 3:10-12, because it speaks of the earth being dissolved (Isaiah 24:19). I would not automatically assume it is speaking of earthly Mount Zion and earthly Jerusalem, however. Hebrews 12:22 tells us that Mount Zion is heavenly (contrasted with the mountain that can be touched - Heb 12:18) and that the city of the living God is the heavenly Jerusalem.

You said earlier that you "find it hard to see this from an amillenial perspective". Is that because of how it speaks about the fallen angels and the kings of the earth being shut up in prison and not judged until many days later? If they are shut up in prison until the day Christ returns and not punished/visited until many days later, then that certainly would be a problem for amillennialism. But Scripture says that Christ will judge at His appearing/second coming (2 Timothy 4:1), and indicates that all are judged at the same time (Matt 25:31-46). So, we have to be careful to not interpret a Scripture passage in such as way that it would contradict other, more clear passages.

Okay, something just occurred to me as I continue to read this chapter. In verse 21, it says the LORD will punish the high ones/fallen angels and the kings of the earth in that day. Let's assume "that day" is referring to the day that the earth is "broken down" and "clean dissolved" and "moved exceedingly". In verse 22, it indicates the fallen angels and kings of the earth will be visited/punished many days after being shut up in prison. So, I'm not so sure that verses 21 and 22 are meant to be read chronologically. If you read it chronologically, then the order would be that they're punished, then gathered and shut up in prison for many days, and then punished again. Why would they be punished more than once?

So, it seems to me that it's saying the Lord will punish them on that day when the Lord turns the earth upside down. Verse 22 explains that this happens after they had previously been gathered in the pit and shut up in the prison for many days.

That makes me think of this passage from the book of Jude:

5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Later, in verse 13, Jude refers to the evil men as:

13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

So, like Isaiah 24, we see here in Jude a depiction of fallen angels and evil men being reserved for judgment and punishment. Notice how verse 6 indicates that the fallen angels were already reserved in everlasting chains under darkness. That's clearly figurative language, because we know that the fallen angels are not literally chained up. It's a figurative reference to the fact that no matter what they do, their time of judgment and punishment is coming.

Eric

David Taylor
Jan 14th 2008, 08:43 PM
Another excerpt from that chapter points to the 2nd Coming as well (Amill not Premill perspective)....

Isaiah is quoted from both John (in Revelation 21), and Paul (in I Corinthians 15):

Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation."







Paul quoting Isaiah 25 (regarding the 2nd Coming):
I Corinthians 15:53 "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

John quoting Isaiah 25 (regarding the 2nd Coming):
Revelation 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

quiet dove
Jan 14th 2008, 09:34 PM
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."

It says when corruptible puts on incorruption and mortal puts on immortal, thats when death is swallowed up in victory, so if you were raised incorruptible/immortal today, death would be swallowed up in victory for you today, and then tomorrow I was raised incorruptible/immortal, then thats when death would be swallowed up in victory for me. The death being swallowed up in victory can happen whenever a man goes from being mortal to immortal. The same could be said of wiping away all their tears actually.

David Taylor
Jan 14th 2008, 09:49 PM
But the context doesn't tell us Death is swallowed up for some one day, and for others another day....

here is the context of when this happens....


I Cor 15:21 "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

I Cor 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

quiet dove
Jan 15th 2008, 02:16 AM
That is only if the last trump is the seventh trump. These two trumpet are blown for entirely different reasons so I disagree that they are the same. Even if at the same time we would need one trumpet for calling and one trumpet for announcing judgment. They never just randomly blew trumpets for different reasons, they had their own sounds so people would know the command.

I think john146 said something on this, I have to cook supper so dont have time to re-read.
On a different note. With v23 does not say no more moon and sun as in Rev. It says ashamed and disgraced. And exalted and kings of the earth wouldnt be punished twice, even if they are killed and wait 1000 years to be raised to judgment. Unsaved men die now and that is what happens, they are awaiting being raised to judgment, that isnt being punished twice.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 15th 2008, 07:41 AM
I also disagree that they are punished twice. Reading verse 21-22, I see first that the host of heaven and kings of the earth are punished. Then Isaiah seems to zoom in on that statement and continue to explain that they will be gathered and thrown in prison first to be punished later on.

I understand the amillenial perspective, but I do not see how this verse fits into that and yet can be explained in a satisfactory manner.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 15th 2008, 07:45 AM
You said earlier that you "find it hard to see this from an amillenial perspective". Is that because of how it speaks about the fallen angels and the kings of the earth being shut up in prison and not judged until many days later? If they are shut up in prison until the day Christ returns and not punished/visited until many days later, then that certainly would be a problem for amillennialism. But Scripture says that Christ will judge at His appearing/second coming (2 Timothy 4:1), and indicates that all are judged at the same time (Matt 25:31-46). So, we have to be careful to not interpret a Scripture passage in such as way that it would contradict other, more clear passages.


Is judging the same as punishing? It seems to me that putting them in prison to be punished at a later time is a form of judging, not punishing. In fact, doesn't the verse make it very clear that there is a gathering together and putting in prison and then a punishment later? Punishment, though related to judging, is a different concept altogether.

David Taylor
Jan 15th 2008, 12:48 PM
Is judging the same as punishing? It seems to me that putting them in prison to be punished at a later time is a form of judging, not punishing. In fact, doesn't the verse make it very clear that there is a gathering together and putting in prison and then a punishment later? Punishment, though related to judging, is a different concept altogether.

How could the pre-endtime punishment of wicked men (in Luke 16), and of wicked angels (2 Peter 2) come into play here? Those examples show an ongoing punishment for the wicked prior to the final judgement when all are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Firstfruits
Jan 15th 2008, 04:43 PM
Isaiah 24:21 takes place at the end of time when Christ returns, according to the following.

Is 24:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, And the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 15th 2008, 05:36 PM
How could the pre-endtime punishment of wicked men (in Luke 16), and of wicked angels (2 Peter 2) come into play here? Those examples show an ongoing punishment for the wicked prior to the final judgement when all are cast into the Lake of Fire.
I'm really not sure. What do you think?

John146
Jan 15th 2008, 10:10 PM
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."

It says when corruptible puts on incorruption and mortal puts on immortal, thats when death is swallowed up in victory, so if you were raised incorruptible/immortal today, death would be swallowed up in victory for you today, and then tomorrow I was raised incorruptible/immortal, then thats when death would be swallowed up in victory for me. The death being swallowed up in victory can happen whenever a man goes from being mortal to immortal. The same could be said of wiping away all their tears actually.




Huh? You don't believe 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 is about the physical resurrection of the dead that occurs when Christ comes?

John146
Jan 15th 2008, 10:19 PM
Is judging the same as punishing? It seems to me that putting them in prison to be punished at a later time is a form of judging, not punishing. In fact, doesn't the verse make it very clear that there is a gathering together and putting in prison and then a punishment later? Punishment, though related to judging, is a different concept altogether.

I think you've missed my point. At the time of Christ's return, punishment will be handed out at the judgment. At the judgment, unbelievers will be sent to everlasting punishment (see Matthew 25:46). In the meantime, fallen angels and unbelievers are being reserved for that day of judgment and punishment, as it talks about in the book of Jude.

John146
Jan 15th 2008, 10:27 PM
Another excerpt from that chapter points to the 2nd Coming as well (Amill not Premill perspective)....

Isaiah is quoted from both John (in Revelation 21), and Paul (in I Corinthians 15):

Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

Paul quoting Isaiah 25 (regarding the 2nd Coming):
I Corinthians 15:53 "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

John quoting Isaiah 25 (regarding the 2nd Coming):
Revelation 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Good post. I've touched on that connection before as well. By relating those Scriptures together, it shows that at the time of the resurrection of the dead that is when death is swallowed up in victory (the last enemy to be defeated is death). Also, according to Isaiah 25:8 that is the time when the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces. It is not hard to see that part of the verse is referenced in Revelation 21:4. So, that means the time of the resurrection of the dead coincides with the time of the appearing of the new heavens and new earth. This is strong evidence on the side of amillennialism.

quiet dove
Jan 16th 2008, 07:03 AM
Huh? You don't believe 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 is about the physical resurrection of the dead that occurs when Christ comes?

My point was, that when the believer is changed from mortal to immortal, for that believer, death is swallowed up in victory. Yes, I believe Corinthians here is speaking of resurrection of dead saints and the changing of living saints to immortality.

Firstfruits
Jan 16th 2008, 09:12 AM
According to the following, death and hell are cast into the lake of fire at judgment along with along with all whose names are not written in the book of life, this will be at the last tumpet.

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; And death And hell delivered up the dead which were in them: And they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And death And hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

John146
Jan 17th 2008, 06:35 PM
My point was, that when the believer is changed from mortal to immortal, for that believer, death is swallowed up in victory. Yes, I believe Corinthians here is speaking of resurrection of dead saints and the changing of living saints to immortality.

Your answer is unclear, so I guess I'll ask the question a different way. What time period is 1 Cor 15:51-54 referring to? When does it happen? If it happens at the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns, then there is no reason why we can't then relate it directly to Isaiah 25:8 and then relate that verse directly to Revelation 21:4, since both 1 Cor 15:54 and Rev 21:4 quote Isaiah 25:8. Relating these verses together suggests that the resurrection of the dead spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 occurs at the same general time as the appearance of the new heavens and new earth. I say that because Isaiah 25:8 indicates that at the time death is swallowed up in victory, it is also the time that God will wipe away the tears from off all faces. 1 Cor 15:51-54 says death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection of the dead and Rev 21:4 says that God wipes away all tears at the time when the first heaven and first earth pass away and the new heaven and new earth appear(Rev 21:1).

quiet dove
Jan 17th 2008, 08:15 PM
Your answer is unclear, so I guess I'll ask the question a different way. What time period is 1 Cor 15:51-54 referring to? When does it happen? If it happens at the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns, then there is no reason why we can't then relate it directly to Isaiah 25:8 and then relate that verse directly to Revelation 21:4, since both 1 Cor 15:54 and Rev 21:4 quote Isaiah 25:8. Relating these verses together suggests that the resurrection of the dead spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 occurs at the same general time as the appearance of the new heavens and new earth. I say that because Isaiah 25:8 indicates that at the time death is swallowed up in victory, it is also the time that God will wipe away the tears from off all faces. 1 Cor 15:51-54 says death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection of the dead and Rev 21:4 says that God wipes away all tears at the time when the first heaven and first earth pass away and the new heaven and new earth appear(Rev 21:1).

I was trying not to sidetrack the thread because we already know we disagree, I didn't want to use the "r" word. And as I said in my previous post, upon resurrection death is swallowed up and tears are wiped away.

But made my points, I think in the other post so wont repeat myself, though I do enjoy listening to myself talk....:lol:

My heart's Desire
Jan 18th 2008, 06:17 AM
The book of Isaiah is amazing. Isaiah is like a Bible within the Bible as mentioning the beginning of time to the end of time. Simply amazing.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 18th 2008, 08:08 AM
I'm still wondering about Isaiah 24:21-22...still not totally clear about the timing and explanation of that event if unified with the amillenial perspective.

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 10:30 AM
I'm still wondering about Isaiah 24:21-22...still not totally clear about the timing and explanation of that event if unified with the amillenial perspective.

For the timing have a look at the previous verses;

Is 24:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
Is 24:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Is 24:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 18th 2008, 10:33 AM
For the timing have a look at the previous verses;

Is 24:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
Is 24:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Is 24:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
How do you see the time that passes between the putting in prison and the actual punishing of the hosts of heaven and the kings of the earth in verse 21-22?

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 10:51 AM
How do you see the time that passes between the putting in prison and the actual punishing of the hosts of heaven and the kings of the earth in verse 21-22?

God will pour out his wrath upon the the beast and all that worship him, and when Christ returns, after being punished by God they will then be thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
This is before Chrst returns.

And the following is when he returns.
Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 18th 2008, 10:54 AM
Between the putting in prison and the punishing of the hosts of heaven and the kings of the earth quite some time passes according to Isaiah 24:21-22. I still don't see that in the verses you quote. Can you explain this to me more clearly?

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 11:13 AM
Between the putting in prison and the punishing of the hosts of heaven and the kings of the earth quite some time passes according to Isaiah 24:21-22. I still don't see that in the verses you quote. Can you explain this to me more clearly?

The answer you seek depends on how long you think Gods wrath will last upon those that worship the beast.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of The wine of The wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into The cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in The presence of The holy angels, and in The presence of The Lamb:

Rev 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

When you take into account revelation 20:4. this must take place before christs return. Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Gods wrath must be poured out before Christ returns, Since the earth is destroyed when Christ returns. God wrath has to be between the reign of the beast and the return of Christ.

When Christ returns it will be judgment, and then either heaven or the lake of fire.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 18th 2008, 11:42 AM
So if I understand you correctly, you take the outpouring of God's wrath to be the 'putting in prison' of the hosts of heaven and the kings of the earth?

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 12:07 PM
So if I understand you correctly, you take the outpouring of God's wrath to be the 'putting in prison' of the hosts of heaven and the kings of the earth?

Please note it does not say that they are prisoners but that they are as prisoners.

Is 24:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, And shall be shut up in the prison, And after many days shall they be visited.

Ezek 22:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

Ezek 22:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof.
Ezek 22:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 18th 2008, 12:44 PM
Please note it does not say that they are prisoners but that they are as prisoners.

Is 24:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, And shall be shut up in the prison, And after many days shall they be visited.

Ezek 22:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

Ezek 22:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof.
Ezek 22:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.
True, but it does not change the concept of putting them in prison to be judged later. I do not, however, see the correlation between the gathering to put in prison in Isaiah and the gathering to burn to bits in Ezekiel. Putting in prison sounds very different from blowing upon in the fire of His wrath.

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 01:58 PM
True, but it does not change the concept of putting them in prison to be judged later. I do not, however, see the correlation between the gathering to put in prison in Isaiah and the gathering to burn to bits in Ezekiel. Putting in prison sounds very different from blowing upon in the fire of His wrath.

Look at it this way, after they have been through the wrath of God from which there will be no escape, as a prisoner, then they will face everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 18th 2008, 02:01 PM
Fair enough. I see where you are coming from now. I don't agree with you, but I do see where you are coming from. Thanks for your clarification.

Any amillenialist want to help me understand your explanation of this verse a little better still?

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 02:18 PM
Fair enough. I see where you are coming from now. I don't agree with you, but I do see where you are coming from. Thanks for your clarification.

Any amillenialist want to help me understand your explanation of this verse a little better still?

Just to add, after Gods wrath is poured out and Christ returns, is the judgment. There is no other time that the beast and the kings of the earth can face either of these punishments/judgments from God.

May I ask what it is that you do not agree with?

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 18th 2008, 02:36 PM
Just to add, after Gods wrath is poured out and Christ returns, is the judgment. There is no other time that the beast and the kings of the earth can face either of these punishments/judgments from God.

May I ask what it is that you do not agree with?
In a general sense, I disagree with the pre- and midtribulational viewpoint in general. In a more specific sense, the explanation of the putting in prison being the wrath of God poured out does not do justice to either the verses or their context in my opinion. To see the putting in prison in the context of Satan's binding of Revelation 20 with the judgment 1000 years later is something I could understand, though I have great difficulties with that view of prophecy in general.

That leaves the amillenial viewpoint, but I'm not seeing how this verse can be explained in a satisfactory manner by amillenialism. Hence my question for more input from amillenialists.

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 02:53 PM
In a general sense, I disagree with the pre- and midtribulational viewpoint in general. In a more specific sense, the explanation of the putting in prison being the wrath of God poured out does not do justice to either the verses or their context in my opinion. To see the putting in prison in the context of Satan's binding of Revelation 20 with the judgment 1000 years later is something I could understand, though I have great difficulties with that view of prophecy in general.

That leaves the amillenial viewpoint, but I'm not seeing how this verse can be explained in a satisfactory manner by amillenialism. Hence my question for more input from amillenialists.

What do you believe happens during the thousand years that those that were killed by the antichrist reign with Christ, and satan is bound during the same period? After that the following happens.

King James Version Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

There is no more other than judgment and heaven or the lake of fire.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 18th 2008, 02:58 PM
What do you believe happens during the thousand years that those that were killed by the antichrist reign with Christ, and satan is bound during the same period? After that the following happens.

King James Version Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

There is no more other than judgment and heaven or the lake of fire.
With all due respect, I want to stick to the question at hand and only answer your question in that context.

Amillenialists interpret that 1000 years as figurative, which totally changes the context of that verse. That is why I am interested in their interpretation of Isaiah 24. But again, I have no desire to discuss the millenium or pre/mid/post as such in this thread.

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 03:16 PM
With all due respect, I want to stick to the question at hand and only answer your question in that context.

Amillenialists interpret that 1000 years as figurative, which totally changes the context of that verse. That is why I am interested in their interpretation of Isaiah 24. But again, I have no desire to discuss the millenium or pre/mid/post as such in this thread.

With the thousand years being figurative, how would you explain the following?

The saints will not reign with Christ a thousand years.

Satan will not be bound for a thousand years.

If this is so, then other than that which is written, we are left to guess.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 18th 2008, 03:34 PM
Please respect my wish to not discuss the millenium as such. I want to stick to my OP concerning Isaiah 24 in relation to Revelation 20.

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 04:01 PM
Please respect my wish to not discuss the millenium as such. I want to stick to my OP concerning Isaiah 24 in relation to Revelation 20.

I hope you find the answer according to that which is written.

Clifton
Jan 18th 2008, 04:28 PM
With the thousand years being figurative, how would you explain the following?

The saints will not reign with Christ a thousand years.

Satan will not be bound for a thousand years.

If this is so, then other than that which is written, we are left to guess.

It could be about 1000 years, or shorter or longer (which I tend to believe). The Greek dictionary conveys that due to the symbolics, it MAY just mean "a long period of time". That would be in sync with DSS/LXX/MT Isaiah and DSS Revelation, which does not give off the number 1000. There are those whom are "millenarians", and others, "centenarians". If we are to live as old, or older than trees, then I side with the centenarians.
Note: "MT" stands for Masoretic Texts, and is the one used in most Bibles. I know The VW Bible uses DSS, LXX, or both for Isaiah.

There is another issue - the Greek word for the referred "1000" is Strong's 5507 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5507), instead of 5505 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5505). Which begs the question, why is 5507 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5507) used if it was to be a literal thousand? The origin of 5505 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5505) is 5507 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5507), but the origin for 5507 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5507) is of "a plural of unknown affinity", which means, we do not know the origin of the word, which is the case with about 100 of the Greek words in the Bible. If 5507 has other numeric modifiers, e.g. 1,260, then it that case, we know for sure it represents 1000 (which is sensible of course).

Based on the Hebrew Scriptures, I lean towards the 1000 as meaning an extended period of time. However, I see no err in believing it is a literal 1000 either, or close to it. After all, the period may just consist of one generations, possibly even two.

Firstfruits
Jan 18th 2008, 04:35 PM
It could be about 1000 years, or shorter or longer (which I tend to believe). The Greek dictionary conveys that due to the symbolics, it MAY just mean "a long period of time". That would be in sync with DSS/LXX/MT Isaiah and DSS Revelation, which does not give off the number 1000. There are those whom are "millenarians", and others, "centenarians". If we are to live as old, or older than trees, then I side with the centenarians.
Note: "MT" stands for Masoretic Texts, and is the one used in most Bibles. I know The VW Bible uses DSS, LXX, or both for Isaiah.

There is another issue - the Greek word for the referred "1000" is Strong's 5507 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5507), instead of 5505 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5505). Which begs the question, why is 5507 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5507) used if it was to be a literal thousand? The origin of 5505 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5505) is 5507 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5507), but the origin for 5507 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5507) is of "a plural of unknown affinity", which means, we do not know the origin of the word, which is the case with about 100 of the Greek words in the Bible. If 5507 has other numeric modifiers, e.g. 1,260, then it that case, we know for sure it represents 1000 (which is sensible of course).

Based on the Hebrew Scriptures, I lean towards the 1000 as meaning an extended period of time. However, I see no err in believing it is a literal 1000 either, or close to it. After all, the period may just consist of one generations, possibly even two.

Thanks Cilfton, I wont add any more as I do not want to change the OP.

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jan 18th 2008, 06:25 PM
In a general sense, I disagree with the pre- and midtribulational viewpoint in general. In a more specific sense, the explanation of the putting in prison being the wrath of God poured out does not do justice to either the verses or their context in my opinion. To see the putting in prison in the context of Satan's binding of Revelation 20 with the judgment 1000 years later is something I could understand, though I have great difficulties with that view of prophecy in general.

That leaves the amillenial viewpoint, but I'm not seeing how this verse can be explained in a satisfactory manner by amillenialism. Hence my question for more input from amillenialists.

"On that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth. They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and His glory will be before his elders." (Isaiah 24:21-23, ESV)And a refresher on the OP - :)

avidtrober
Jan 19th 2008, 04:02 AM
In fact, doesn't the verse make it very clear that there is a gathering together and putting in prison and then a punishment later?

Yes, Satan and cohorts thrown into the bottomless pit at the Second Coming (Day of Atonement, c.f. Leviticus Day of Atonement, the Azazel OT ceremoney depicts Satan being bounded).

Then, as Revelations says, Christ reigns *on the earth* for 1000 years. (c.f. Leviticus Feast of Tabernacles, depicts Christ's reign; the earth at rest because Satan is bound, unable to influence the nations.
, and the kingdoms of the earth have become the Lord's aka His government now reigns.

Then, the Great White Throne Judgement (c.f. Lev Great Last Day), where the second resurrection and second death take place.

So, yes, they're in a 'holding tank' so-to-speak for Christ's millenial reign on the earth.

(I am aware of the various views a- pre- post-millenial. Suggestion as to why there is confusion: mankind changed God's Sabbaths from Lev 23 days, which are an annual reminder of the milestones of God's plan for mankind. Note "throughout your generations" "perpectual" or "forever" connotations to keep them. In Ez, God states man would change His sabbaths to their own, against God's will. While they are not essential-for-salvation (only the New Covenant offers salvation), they are a covenant to believers if they keep them, an annual reminder of God's plan. Sadly, mainstream Christianity lumps them in with the Old Covenant, thus throws them away, keeps Christmas and Easter et. al. and therfore has the confusion about a- pre- or post-millenialism. Anyway, just a suggestion, look into them, note the milestones are *to-the-day* what has already happened with God's plan: Passover, Pentecost...Feast of Trumpets, Atonement, Feast of Tab. and Great Last Day to come).

wpm
Jan 20th 2008, 04:03 AM
This morning, I came across a passage of Scripture that I find so fascinating that I cannot resist asking for your input and thoughts on this. We all know the passage in Revelation 20 that says Satan will be shut up for 1000 years. Between premills and amills, this is a hot issue because of the way both parties interpret the verse. Some say this passage stands on its own and has no other Scripture to back it up. My question to all of you is whether the following Scripture can be linked to this passage in Revelation 20:

"On that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth. They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and His glory will be before his elders." (Isaiah 24:21-23, ESV)

Reading the whole chapter, I cannot but conclude that this is dealing with the end-times. When I read about the earth being empty and desolate (verse 1), the earth staggering like a drunken man (verse 20), and the moon being confounded and the sun being ashamed (verse 23), I inadvertently think of Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation. The phrase "host of heaven" as used in verse 21 usually refers to angels. In this case, one need not be a theologian to conclude that Isaiah is referring to fallen angels. The fact that they are imprisoned in a pit together with the kings of the earth is an exceedingly interesting statement that will not let me go. The link to Revelation 20:2-3, where the dragon is thrown into the pit and shut up for a thousand years, is not hard to make.

In the same passage, it says that at that time, the Lord reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem. Could this be a Millenial reference? Notice the fact that the host of heaven and the kings of the earth and imprisoned first and only then punished after many days. I find it hard to see this from an amillenial perspective, since the reference to the moon and the sun, the staggering of the earth, etc. are so clearly apocalyptic.

What are your thoughts?

Hello again. :) I just noticed this thread today.

The translation you are using may be creating an undue difficulty. I think that the KJV properly reflects the meaning of the original. These prisoners are simply visited or observed many days hence. It doesn’t mention the prisoners in view ever being judged or released from their awful abode.One could only believe that if they were aquainted with the Premil view beforetime.

Repeated Scripture shows the complete destruction of the wicked at Christ's Coming.

Moreover, this particular company of people in Isaiah 24:22, whoever they are, are definitely not mortal believers on the earth after the Coming of the Lord as they are expressly located "in the pit" – the abode of the wicked dead. Also, the Premil millennial kingdom on earth is never held as "the pit," therefore, it cannot be advanced as corroboration for that.

paqad

1) to attend to, muster, number, reckon, visit, punish, appoint, look after, care for
a) (Qal)
1) to pay attention to, observe
2) to attend to
3) to seek, look about for
4) to seek in vain, need, miss, lack
5) to visit
6) to visit upon, punish
7) to pass in review, muster, number
8) to appoint, assign, lay upon as a charge, deposit
b) (Niphal)
1) to be sought, be needed, be missed, be lacking
2) to be visited
3) to be visited upon
4) to be appointed
5) to be watched over
c) (Piel) to muster, call up
d) (Pual) to be passed in review, be caused to miss, be called, be called to account
e) (Hiphil)
1) to set over, make overseer, appoint an overseer
2) to commit, entrust, commit for care, deposit
f) (Hophal)
1) to be visited
2) to be deposited
3) to be made overseer, be entrusted
g) (Hithpael) numbered
h) (Hothpael) numbered

Regards

Paul

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 20th 2008, 10:04 AM
Hello again. :) I just noticed this thread today.

The translation you are using may be creating an undue difficulty. I think that the KJV properly reflects the meaning of the original. These prisoners are simply visited or observed many days hence. It doesn’t mention the prisoners in view ever being judged or released from their awful abode.One could only believe that if they were aquainted with the Premil view beforetime.

Repeated Scripture shows the complete destruction of the wicked at Christ's Coming.

Moreover, this particular company of people in Isaiah 24:22, whoever they are, are definitely not mortal believers on the earth after the Coming of the Lord as they are expressly located "in the pit" – the abode of the wicked dead. Also, the Premil millennial kingdom on earth is never held as "the pit," therefore, it cannot be advanced as corroboration for that.

paqad

1) to attend to, muster, number, reckon, visit, punish, appoint, look after, care for
a) (Qal)
1) to pay attention to, observe
2) to attend to
3) to seek, look about for
4) to seek in vain, need, miss, lack
5) to visit
6) to visit upon, punish
7) to pass in review, muster, number
8) to appoint, assign, lay upon as a charge, deposit
b) (Niphal)
1) to be sought, be needed, be missed, be lacking
2) to be visited
3) to be visited upon
4) to be appointed
5) to be watched over
c) (Piel) to muster, call up
d) (Pual) to be passed in review, be caused to miss, be called, be called to account
e) (Hiphil)
1) to set over, make overseer, appoint an overseer
2) to commit, entrust, commit for care, deposit
f) (Hophal)
1) to be visited
2) to be deposited
3) to be made overseer, be entrusted
g) (Hithpael) numbered
h) (Hothpael) numbered

Regards

Paul
As always, Paul, your input creates interesting insights. After reading the above, I consulted the most trusted Dutch translation I know and lo and behold, it had the word 'visited' instead of punished. I would have to go into the usage of that word to see if the translation of 'punished' is warranted based on its usage elsewhere, though.

You assumption that the groups mentioned in verse 21-22 are not mortal humans I do not completely understand. Does it not say "the Kings of the earth on the earth" in contrast with the host of heaven in heaven? That sounds like the kings of the earth to me. How do you gather that they are not mortal human beings at all?

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 02:39 PM
Rev 20 and Isa 24 are referring to the same time. You cannot argue the obvious. Personally I believe many people have presented many views but none have ever fully justified scripture. If any view is true it would justify all scripture.

Though many think satan is locked up, they cannot explain how sin since reigns in our hearts. I believe many people come up with many explanations of how things are so they can make themselves fell smart, but deceive the rest of the world. How else can we explain all the theories that are around.

We fall into satans trap by argueing over these theories, hence hes not locked up. History has proven that christianity can be used to kill christians. But Jesus says the chruch should not be divided.

People have come up with so many views and 'interpretations' that christians can no longer get along with one another. Is Christ divided? Absolutely not, Is the church divided, absolutely.

Matthew 24:44 completely eliminates all popular pre/mid/Armageddon theories.

If you cannot justify all scripture you have two choices. Choice number one, God lies, choice number two, man lies.

Theologians, scholars and churches all have theories but God gave us the bible for morons like me that don't need interpretations, the words really mean what they say. God gave us the book in its most simpliest form because he knows two men would never agree on one interpretation, if God did not give us the book its its most simpliest form then he is playing jokes on us.

God tells us what he does to the intelligence of man. The Pharisees and Sadducees are our example of the 'church' in Jesus's day. We think we have 'safe' because we have Jesus, but Jesus himself says 'I will say I do not know you'. Theologians and scholars claim this is pretend christians, but based on the bibles example, I personally believe this will be theologians and scholars. 'Did we not prophecy in your name, did we not cast out demons in your name'.

All the examples are there, God gave every living soul the ability to have their own bible and read for themselves. To heck will all theories that can't justify all things. Its time to get back to the words and their basic meaning.

The 'seven year' tribulation is 2300 days according to Daniel 8:13. How come all theories say seven years when 2300 days seems to be so obvious?

Allegra
Jan 20th 2008, 04:40 PM
This morning, I came across a passage of Scripture that I find so fascinating that I cannot resist asking for your input and thoughts on this. We all know the passage in Revelation 20 that says Satan will be shut up for 1000 years. Between premills and amills, this is a hot issue because of the way both parties interpret the verse. Some say this passage stands on its own and has no other Scripture to back it up. My question to all of you is whether the following Scripture can be linked to this passage in Revelation 20:

"On that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth. They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and His glory will be before his elders." (Isaiah 24:21-23, ESV)

Reading the whole chapter, I cannot but conclude that this is dealing with the end-times. When I read about the earth being empty and desolate (verse 1), the earth staggering like a drunken man (verse 20), and the moon being confounded and the sun being ashamed (verse 23), I inadvertently think of Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation. The phrase "host of heaven" as used in verse 21 usually refers to angels. In this case, one need not be a theologian to conclude that Isaiah is referring to fallen angels. The fact that they are imprisoned in a pit together with the kings of the earth is an exceedingly interesting statement that will not let me go. The link to Revelation 20:2-3, where the dragon is thrown into the pit and shut up for a thousand years, is not hard to make.

In the same passage, it says that at that time, the Lord reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem. Could this be a Millenial reference? Notice the fact that the host of heaven and the kings of the earth and imprisoned first and only then punished after many days. I find it hard to see this from an amillenial perspective, since the reference to the moon and the sun, the staggering of the earth, etc. are so clearly apocalyptic.

What are your thoughts?
I am reading this thread for the 1st time. One doesn't have to be a theologian to understand the meaning, but one has to use the rule of Bible hermeneutics & compare scripture with scripture wherever possible.
My interpretation for this scripture falls within the Postmillennial camp.

Having done an indepth study of Biblical prophetic symbols, I will give the prophetic interpretation within the literary genre of the symbolic language(since it is without a doubt symbolic). To describe "the host of heaven" I refer to something I wrote before on Daniel 8:10 & Antiochus Epiphanes. Do the symbols mean the same everywhere they are used? They must be considered in each context; for the most part, they retain the same meaning.
Verse 10-"And it grew up to the host of heaven." The host of heaven was the holy host of God who served in the temple at Jerusalem, the priesthood, the rulers of God's people. Thus Antiochus would grow very strong, & be lifted up with pride. He would exalt himself as a god,(he wouldn't worship the god of his fathers-for they worshiped certain idols, but he would worship himself) one who would change God's laws respecting worship.( If you remember, he sacrificed a pig on the altar.)
Antiochus (the Syrian, but born in Athens) carried his conquest to Egypt & to the east, & into Egypt for a second time. After his defeat in Egypt, he entered the Holy Land, & made war on the holy army of God, priests & worshipers, ""The host of heaven."
"And caused some of the host and stars to fall to the earth." This is symbolic language. Antiochus did not literally cause the literal stars of the literal heaven to fall to earth. Did this man actually make war with the holy angels in the realm where God abides? Did his power actually become as great as that of God? Of course not! Then what is meant? "The host of heaven" meant the host of Israel, "heaven" meant the place of God's people. By the "stars falling to earth" what is meant? "The stars" were the rulers of Israel, & they would fall to earth, their power would be taken away.(Note: This is 163 BC- Antiochus destroyed Jerusalem& desecrated the temple)
Now, in Isaiah24:18-23, There is no escape for the wicked. The windows of heaven are opened, & judgment is poured out, the earth shakes, the earth reels to & fro like a tree on a windy day. Sin is heavy upon the earth. The earth will fall, never to rise again. So it will happen in that day. The Lord will punish the host of heaven (the wicked) & the kings of the earth. After this there will be a gathering. The moon & sun will be ashamed of the sin of earth! After this, the Lord will reign on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem.

Oh but I must emphasize that Mt. Zion is no longer the physical Mt.Zion.
You are correct to think Isaiah 24 is describing the apocalypse per Revelation. However, Mt.Zion is the heavenly Jerusalem as follows:
Rev.14:1
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
2Peter3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Rev.3:12-13
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
"The Jerusalem above,"The same Greek word "ano" is used by Jesus in John8:23 when He said he was from "above," unlike His unbelieving opponents who were from "beneath."
This heavenly Jerusalem, as embodying the life & spirit & principles of the new covenant, is called "the mother of us all"
Galatians 4:21-31
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Now, there is no literal, earthly kingdom of "a thousand years" after Christ's Second Coming!
Rev.20 is a summary of the N.T. times. We can see where the martyrs reign with Christ a thousand years. Nowhere does the text state that Christ is reigning on earth for a thousand years. So, this must be taken allegorically, that the emphasis in on the "saints reigning with Christ" & not a supposition that the emphasis is on Christ's reign. The text is awesome that it does not say "on earth."
Also the recap of Rev. in chapter 20 (before heaven & earth flee away section) Says in vs 5b-6, This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.(my emph.)
The saints & martyrs were priest of Christ in their earthly mission:
Hebrews 10:21; Romans 15:16; 1Peter 2:5,9.
We can refer back to Rev.5 for parallel vs. of this "recap" of Rev.20 here:
Rev 5:9-10
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



And my final note refuting dispensational premillennialism is:
Disp. Theology minimizes the tragedy of Jewish rejection of the gospel, & encourages them to look for the restoration of the physical temple, priesthood, sacrifices, circumcision, & earthly king & kingdom, when in fact, Jesus was offered those things & turned them down (John 6:15).The gospel of Christ is abrogated, nullified, or simply ignored, for the dispensational concept of the millennium to be established.
Christ rejected the offer to be king on an earthly throne, bc that was from the very beginning, a symbol of rebellion against God (1Samuel 8:5-8;10:19;12:17).

wpm
Jan 21st 2008, 12:43 AM
As always, Paul, your input creates interesting insights. After reading the above, I consulted the most trusted Dutch translation I know and lo and behold, it had the word 'visited' instead of punished. I would have to go into the usage of that word to see if the translation of 'punished' is warranted based on its usage elsewhere, though.

You assumption that the groups mentioned in verse 21-22 are not mortal humans I do not completely understand. Does it not say "the Kings of the earth on the earth" in contrast with the host of heaven in heaven? That sounds like the kings of the earth to me. How do you gather that they are not mortal human beings at all?

I will try and clarify. I believe they are the wicked dead. They are no longer mortal, but in an immortal punished state.

Paul

John146
Jan 21st 2008, 04:45 PM
Here's something worth pointing out about Isaiah 24:21-23. Regardless of how we interpret Isaiah 24:21-22, how can Isaiah 24:23 be speaking of a literal earthly millennial reign of Christ? It can't be. Remember, at that point when the fallen angels and the wicked dead are punished the earth will have been made empty and waste and turned upside down (Isa 24:1). It will have been "utterly broken down" and "clean dissolved" (Isa 24:19). It will have fallen and will not rise again (Isa 24:20). This is clearly speaking of the day of the Lord when the earth will be burned up and dissolved (2 Peter 3:10-12). How can an earthly millennial kingdom follow that event? It seems that Peter knew of no such thing. Instead, he said: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.".

So, it is the new heavens and new earth that appear following what is described in Isaiah 24:1-22, not an earthly millennial kingdom based in earthly Jerusalem. The new heavens and new earth are eternal, and there will be no wickedness found there. It is the place "wherein dwelleth righteousness". Isaiah 24:23 says the Lord shall reign in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem. We can't ignore what Hebrews 12 tells us regarding Mount Zion and Jerusalem.

18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

The Mount Zion from which the Lord reigns and will reign for eternity is not a literal, physical mountain that "might be touched". It is heavenly. Also, the Jerusalem from which the Lord reigns and will reign for eternity is not earthly Jerusalem. It is the heavenly Jerusalem (New Jerusalem), which is the city of the living God.

Eric

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 21st 2008, 09:47 PM
I will try and clarify. I believe they are the wicked dead. They are no longer mortal, but in an immortal punished state.

Paul
Ok, fair enough; that would make sense.

Still, that does not answer the question concerning the time period mentioned between their being put in prison and their "visitation" later on - whatever that visitation may be referring to. As Eric points out in the above post, the whole passage seems to be dealing with the end of the world - a point I completely agree with, but which also sparks my OP question - which makes the time period mentioned aenigmatic to me. How do you see that?

wpm
Jan 22nd 2008, 01:49 AM
Ok, fair enough; that would make sense.

Still, that does not answer the question concerning the time period mentioned between their being put in prison and their "visitation" later on - whatever that visitation may be referring to. As Eric points out in the above post, the whole passage seems to be dealing with the end of the world - a point I completely agree with, but which also sparks my OP question - which makes the time period mentioned aenigmatic to me. How do you see that?

We get very little insight into the hereafter re the wicked. There are many mysteries in relation to it. I guess that it would not be strange for the Lord to visit these Christ-rejecters after they were sent to the Lake of Fire.

I don't see any support for a Premil/Postmil or Amil position in this passge. It is sometimes advanced by Premils as evidence for the Premil position; however, it adds no corroboration for the normal Premil depiction of the 1,000 years reign. Moreover, this particular company of people in Isaiah 24:22 are definitely not surving mortal unbelievers on the earth after the Coming of the Lord. After all, they are expressly located "in the pit" – the abode of the wicked dead.

Just my thoughts.

Paul

John146
Jan 22nd 2008, 07:45 PM
Ok, fair enough; that would make sense.

Still, that does not answer the question concerning the time period mentioned between their being put in prison and their "visitation" later on - whatever that visitation may be referring to. As Eric points out in the above post, the whole passage seems to be dealing with the end of the world - a point I completely agree with, but which also sparks my OP question - which makes the time period mentioned aenigmatic to me. How do you see that?

But what I said earlier, which I don't think you understood, is that I believe verse 22 is basically a recapitulation of verse 21. In other words, verse 21 says that all fallen angels and wicked dead people will be punished at that time when the earth is dissolved and so on. Then in verse 22, I believe it explains that before that time of punishment comes, the fallen angels and wicked dead are put in prison, which I believe is just a figurative reference to the fact that they are in a state of being reserved for judgment. That's why I mentioned the book of Jude because that speaks of the fallen angels and the wicked being reserved for judgment. It speaks of the fallen angels being "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day". I believe "the great day" is speaking of the day of the Lord. I also don't believe that fallen angels are literally chained up.

As Paul (wpm) pointed out earlier regarding verse 22, the word "visited" as used in the original language, can mean different things. One of which is "punished", so that's how I associate the punishment in verse 21 as being the same punishment as verse 22. Since this punishment occurs at the time of the earth being dissolved, which 2 Peter 3 associates with the coming of Christ on the day of the Lord, then I can only conclude that verse 23 has to do with the heavenly Mount Zion and the new Jerusalem rather than earthly mount Zion and earthly Jerusalem. Because as Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13, we're looking forward to the new heavens and new earth which appear after the earth is burned up.

I think Paul's (wpm's) theory is a possibility as well, but I'm not sure what the reasoning would be for the fallen angels and wicked dead being visited or observed many days after being thrown into the lake of fire.

But, he makes a great point in saying that there is no specific mention of survivors living in an earthly millennial kingdom to be found within the chapter. That is a conclusion that is mainly drawn from verse 23, which I believe results from an erroneous interpretation of which Mount Zion and which Jerusalem it is referring to in that verse. Premill says it's referring to the earthly Mount Zion and Jerusalem. But how would the earthly Mount Zion and Jerusalem survive the dissolving of the earth?

Eric