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walked
Jan 14th 2008, 12:33 AM
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
....Pharisee: a member of a Jewish sect of the intertestamental period noted for strict observance of rites and ceremonies of the written law and the prophets and, for insistence on the validity of their own oral traditions concerning the law and the prophets.
....Scribe: a member of a learned class in ancient Israel through New Testament times studying the written law and the prophets and serving as copyists, editors, teachers, and jurists of the written law and the prophets.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
This (Romans 3:23) would include us and the scribes and pharisees.
Jesus pointed out that pharisees would not recognize when and where they fail so they could confess and repent where they fail in their obedience so they became self-righteous.
So, when I am disobedient in act or thought I must recognize admit/confess and repent.
When I admit/confess and repent that I have failed and do fail and will fail in obedience to God then I recognize my need for Christ righteousness and then I exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees.

Obedience, obedience to what?
Let Christ explain this........
Matthew 22:34
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We haven't been set free from ourobligation to be obedient to all the law and the prophets...We have by Christ righteousness been set free from the results of our failure at keeping all the law and the prophets. We are still obligated to be obedient to all the law and the prophets.

Mark F
Jan 14th 2008, 01:37 AM
walked,

I am not being sarcastic to you, this has been on my mind throughout today.


You wrote:


37 Jesus said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


We haven't been set free from our obligation to be obedient to all the law and the prophets...We have in Christ been set free from the results of our failure at keeping all the law and the prophets. We are still obligated to be obedient to all the law and the prophets.


It is impossible to even think we can do this. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can,t!!!! To keep the first one do you realize that you have to do this 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of your life?? That means that prized sports car needs to go away, how about work, do we work 50-60 hours a week to barely make the payment on the house that's way more than what we could get by with. How about the hunting trip that we look forward to ALL YEAR? You know the list goes on and on....

How about loving my neighbor as myself, 24/7/365?

I fail before I even get dressed and in my truck to go to work!!!


This is what people who think they are saved do not recognize. We are complete and total sinners, 24/7/365, God wants us to admit it and trust what the Scriptures say concerning what Jesus HAS done and what He promises He WILL do for those who believe.

I guess we can think we are obligated to keep them, I might as well give up on that too because there is no way I even come close. I fall soooo short.

But.....thank God for imputation!

Thank God that there was One who did do it!!!

Mograce2U
Jan 14th 2008, 02:42 AM
Lets just look at the commandments which apply to our relationship with other men:

(Exo 20:12-17 KJV) Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
{13} Thou shalt not kill.
{14} Thou shalt not commit adultery.
{15} Thou shalt not steal.
{16} Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
{17} Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

If love is your motive in all things, do you really need to rehearse these commands? Love will honor all people; love is the antithesis of murderous hate; love does not lust after the things of the flesh to covet the wife of another; love does not desire to steal what belongs to another; love for the truth in not bent towards lying; and love does not covet anything that belongs to another. In fact coveting is the theme of all these commands in one way or another. Rather the Spirit of the Lord is one of generosity. Therefore by the Spirit we can hope in all things, believe all things and thru love, is in and of itself pure from these vices and can endure injustice and bear with the sins of others.

Love is therefore the place of rest and the fulfillment of all the law. If love is your focus, you needn't even concern yourself with "keeping the law". And if you should transgress against another, the Spirit will reveal this to you so you can repent and make peace. Therefore we walk according to the Spirit and do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh which the law only incites.

"Keep off the grass!" Will only make you want to not do it! Make love your focus and this will not even be a challenge. Instead you will already desire to see God's creation thrive. And thoughts of murder, thefts, adultery, etc. will be the furthest thing from your mind. An already obedient child need not be warned. Since this is what the Lord redeemed us for. That we might delight in His goodness because it is also our desire.

jiggyfly
Jan 14th 2008, 04:09 AM
Philippians 3:1-11
1 Whatever happens, dear brothers and sisters,* may the Lord give you joy. I never get tired of telling you this. I am doing this for your own good.
2 Watch out for those dogs, those wicked men and their evil deeds, those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved. 3 For we who worship God in the Spirit* are the only ones who are truly circumcised. We put no confidence in human effort. Instead, we boast about what Christ Jesus has done for us.
4 Yet I could have confidence in myself if anyone could. If others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more! 5 For I was circumcised when I was eight days old, having been born into a pure-blooded Jewish family that is a branch of the tribe of Benjamin. So I am a real Jew if there ever was one! What’s more, I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. 6 And zealous? Yes, in fact, I harshly persecuted the church. And I obeyed the Jewish law so carefully that I was never accused of any fault.
7 I once thought all these things were so very important, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. 8 Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the priceless gain of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I may have Christ 9 and become one with him. I no longer count on my own goodness or my ability to obey God’s law, but I trust Christ to save me. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. 10 As a result, I can really know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I can learn what it means to suffer with him, sharing in his death, 11 so that, somehow, I can experience the resurrection from the dead!

Athanasius
Jan 14th 2008, 04:19 AM
I've always viewed that particular scripture (Matthew 5:20) to mean that if not even the Pharisee's are able to inherit the kingdom of God (keeping within in the cultural context) then we haven't a chance either.

And as I turned to face the door,
In walked the sovereign grace of God :)

walked
Jan 14th 2008, 06:34 AM
walked,

I am not being sarcastic to you, this has been on my mind throughout today.

You wrote:

It is impossible to even think we can do this. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can,t!!!! To keep the first one do you realize that you have to do this 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of your life?? That means that prized sports car needs to go away, how about work, do we work 50-60 hours a week to barely make the payment on the house that's way more than what we could get by with. How about the hunting trip that we look forward to ALL YEAR? You know the list goes on and on....

How about loving my neighbor as myself, 24/7/365?

I fail before I even get dressed and in my truck to go to work!!!


This is what people who think they are saved do not recognize. We are complete and total sinners, 24/7/365, God wants us to admit it and trust what the Scriptures say concerning what Jesus HAS done and what He promises He WILL do for those who believe.

I guess we can think we are obligated to keep them, I might as well give up on that too because there is no way I even come close. I fall soooo short.

But.....thank God for imputation!

Thank God that there was One who did do it!!!

All of us are in the same boat at the moment.... Just because it is impossible to walk in obedience does not mean that we are not obligated to, thats where Christ righteousness enters.
We haven't been (set free) from our obligation to be obedient to all the law and the prophets just because we cant possibly keep them... We have by Christ righteousness been (set free) from the results of our failure at keeping all the law and the prophets. We are still obligated to be obedient to all the law and the prophets.

Mark F
Jan 14th 2008, 02:15 PM
Thank you for all your kind words of encouragement.

My point being this: A recognition of the overwhelming fact that of ourselves we can do nothing to ATTAIN the righteousness required to face our Holy God.


I rest completely in the knowledge of Christ. When God looks at me.....He sees the Blood!!

Again, I thank our loving Father for IMPUTATION!

jiggyfly
Jan 14th 2008, 02:22 PM
Thank you for all your kind words of encouragement.

My point being this: A recognition of the overwhelming fact that of ourselves we can do nothing to ATTAIN the righteousness required to face our Holy God.


I rest completely in the knowledge of Christ. When God looks at me.....He sees the Blood!!

Again, I thank our loving Father for IMPUTATION!

Amen Mark I agree

Lars777
Jan 14th 2008, 02:23 PM
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' parable of the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18:9-14 gives us an idea of the outward standard of holiness that the Pharisees observed. This Pharisee did not cheat, steal, or commit adultery. He gave tithes of everything that he possessed and fasted twice each week.

In His sermon on the mount, Jesus is not saying that we have to fast more than twice each week to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Rather, He is exposing the religious leaders' superficial self-righteousness, and He begins to explain through Matthew 6:18 that God is looking on the heart (1 Sam. 16:7). The scribes and Pharisees had put all of the emphasis on physical acts of compliance with many laws and traditions; but in their hearts, they were still of their father, the devil (Jn. 8:44). They had made the outside clean, but within, they were full of all uncleanness, hypocrisy, and iniquity (Mt. 23:25-28).

The Pharisees, like many people today, were ignorant of achieving right standing (righteousness) with God through simply receiving His forgiveness by faith and were trying to earn salvation by their acts. No one can fulfill God's commands (Rom. 3:23) but Jesus (Heb. 4:15). Therefore, to be righteous, we must put our faith in what He has done for us (Rom. 9:31-10:4; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 3:11-12; 5:4-6).

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 03:13 PM
It is impossible to even think we can do this. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can,t!!!! To keep the first one do you realize that you have to do this 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of your life?? That means that prized sports car needs to go away, how about work, do we work 50-60 hours a week to barely make the payment on the house that's way more than what we could get by with. How about the hunting trip that we look forward to ALL YEAR? You know the list goes on and on....Why so negative? Why exactly would you need to give up your car? Do you overwork yourself to pay for what you can't afford? If so, just get rid of those things that you can't afford. No need to stress yourself over it. And what exactly is wrong with going on the hunting trip you've been looking forward to? :hmm: Maybe I'm just not getting your examples.

This is how I see this.

Ephesians 5:1 - Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.

We are to imitate perfection, even if we can't be perfect in doing so. Here's an example. When my son was a small child, he would stand in my hubby's work boots and try to walk like daddy. :D He was cute but he could not control the large shoes (hubby wears a size 12 1/2 - 13:o). But all the same he would imitate his father. Now my son is ten and and big ten at that. He wears a size 7 1/2 himself now and if he were to try on his fathers shoes, they would still be much to big but he would not look nearly as awkward in them. I imagine my son in 5 years. He will likely be very close to not looking awkward at all in those same shoes. And five years from then, he will most likely be standing tall in his father's shoes. Though he only imitated him in futility as a toddler, as he matures and grows, that imitation should become more and more sure. I believe that in the same way we are to imitate our Father though He has much bigger shoes that seem impossible to fill. I don't know about you but though I'm not where I've reached perfection, I am also not where I was when I first came to Messiah. Each day as I grow and mature in Him, I look less awkward in His shoes. :D

Oh, but as to the OP. We most assuredly must have righteousness greater than the Pharisees. They only had there own righteousness (filthy rags), we must accept the free gift of Yeshua's righteousness, as that is the only righteousness that is worthy.

God Bless!

coldfire136
Jan 14th 2008, 03:49 PM
Of all the people have posted here thus far, the only person I think comes close to understanding the Sermon in the Mount in context is "studying2show" their her analogy of the "awkward shoes." READ THE TEXT!

He begins the sermon on the mount by exclaiming that the poor, mourning, meek, hungry and thirsty people before him would be blessed (Matt. 5:1-11). I interpret this passage differently than many. I tend to think Lucan version is a bit closer to the original in the "unspiritualized" version of "blessed are the poor" rather than "blessed are the poor in spirit" (Luke 6:20-22). If you read the Lucan version, you are able to understand better what the Matthean version may have meant. In order to understand Matthew's meaning, we must understand that the audience he was preaching to was mostly lower class peasants and farmers. These people were not the "blessed" of God.

Blessing in Israel were those who had children, those who had wealth, and those who had great power. Jesus was turning the idea on its head by calling a group of "nobodies" blessed. The word is an old Hebrew idea that predates Jesus' life on earth. It is not easily translated into English. But this is the place the sermon on the mount starts. He does not call them "sinners" or "evil" or that they are "going to hell." He begins his message by proclaiming (earlier) that the kingdom of God has come near, and it is not just for the rich. It is for everyone.

That is also why he said "you ARE the salt of the world" (Not: Here's HOW to become the salt of the world). It is a question of being. A question of who we are. Jesus is allowing everyone to be the saltiness of the world. But he is speaking to Israel and suggesting that they have allowed themselves to be trampled on and they have hid their lights (Matt. 5:13-16).

Jesus' hope is that all men would follow his way of being Israel. That is, that they would realize HE is the "fulfillment of the law." Those who follow his interpretation of Torah will be great in his kingdom, and those who do not will be least in his kingdom (Mt. 5:19). And he turns the social world on its head again by suggesting that the pharisees and the scribes, the most religious people of the age (people who have would certainly been considered "blessed"), will not enter the kingdom. It is about more than a social or religious status, it is about following Jesus' way of Torah.

Jesus then spends three more chapters on his way of being Torah, then explains that his way is narrow, that we will be judged by our fruit, and that a wise man will be his house upon the "rock" (in other words, on the teachings of Jesus). All of this to say, I am not sure how you get your interpretation of this passage. This passage is about taking on the yoke of Jesus Christ, asking the same spirit that empowered him--a nobody from the region of Galilee--to empower us to follow his way of doing things.

The, "I'm not good enough, and I never will be good enough" idea is not really biblical (even in a Pauline setting). We have to consider these things carefully before we begin talking about how to interpret Jesus' words.

Mark F
Jan 14th 2008, 04:35 PM
Studyin2show,

My ability to express my thoughts has left me again,:lol:.

I am not saying I am in that state of mind, but I know that UNTIL we come to the realization of our utter hopeless ability to please God without His grace, we I believe will think we are the ones being obedient.

Look at Peter how he repsonded to Jesus when he finally saw himself, or what was in himself. In Luke 5:8 he said "Depart from me for I am a sinful man" right? It wasn't until he recognized that there was no good in him that he finally saw Jesus' holiness.

This self worth gospel is devastating to the true message of redemption. It's not only not about me, it isn't slightly about me. We are objects of God's grace and deserve eternal seperation from Him.

But again I say, God be thanked for His unspeakable grace!

coldfire136
Jan 14th 2008, 04:53 PM
Where did the idea that we have to realize we are worthless in order to understand God's holiness come? This idea has always seemed strange to me.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 05:06 PM
Studyin2show,

My ability to express my thoughts has left me again,:lol:.

I am not saying I am in that state of mind, but I know that UNTIL we come to the realization of our utter hopeless ability to please God without His grace, we I believe will think we are the ones being obedient.

Look at Peter how he repsonded to Jesus when he finally saw himself, or what was in himself. In Luke 5:8 he said "Depart from me for I am a sinful man" right? It wasn't until he recognized that there was no good in him that he finally saw Jesus' holiness.

This self worth gospel is devastating to the true message of redemption. It's not only not about me, it isn't slightly about me. We are objects of God's grace and deserve eternal seperation from Him.

But again I say, God be thanked for His unspeakable grace!I came to that place, Mark, nine years ago. Messiah lifted me up from my pit of despair and clothed me with HIS righteousness! :pp Now that He has done this, should I not walk in the righteousness in which He has given me? I will imitate my Father's perfection though I am not perfect, as Paul writes that we should in Ephesians 5:1. And each day I expect it will be less awkward in His shoes! ;) Please don't assume me self-righteous as my righteousness is but filthy rags. In the same way, don't expect me to cast aside the righteousness I've been given and assume my position again in that pit of despair from which He lifted me. The joy of the LORD IS my strength!

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Jan 14th 2008, 05:21 PM
Hi Coldfire136, #12 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1500284&postcount=12)
In looking at those 2 passages, both Matthew and Luke make a point of showing that Jesus was speaking to His disciples - not the masses. This was not a teaching for the multitudes, but for those He had handpicked to be the salt of the earth. Does that make a difference in your post?

Mark F
Jan 14th 2008, 05:24 PM
Studyin'2show,

I do not assume you are self-righteous, oh forgive me if my words implied that.

But you said it was because of your brokeness that HE lifted you, and BECAUSE you recognize that, now, you press on to that upward call!! You seek to please Him because you know that what He has done you don't deserve. You want to do the things that please Him, not because He commands it, because you know He deserves it, and you love Him, right?

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 14th 2008, 05:30 PM
The righteousness of the Pharisees can only be exceeded when we humble ourselves to be servants and following the principle of love covers a mulitute of sin, and love does no harm, love is kind, gentle and giving. The pharisees which Yeshua rebuked were self serving individual, and mind you, not ALL of them were that way, there was only a certain group which was that way. And they knew who they were.

These particular pharisees that Yeshua had a running in with, were the types who wanted to be lifted up, looked as as holy, and perfect, they loved the status of being acknowledged and treated special.

This is contrary to a servant status. It is contrary to love, and mercy. Those are the things they didn't posses.


Shalom,
Tanja

Mark F
Jan 14th 2008, 05:37 PM
Coldfire136,

The gist of this attitude is something that we recieve when we seek to know the deep things of God. The big question?? What is the purpose of all of creation?

So people who can choose to reject God choose to believe and glorify Him. To glorify God and enjoy Him forever. (Lets not get sidetracked with this statement, start a new thread if you want to address it please)

Why should we be given the privledge of any acknowledgment from the most awesome, most powerful, most holy and righteous being as we do? I must think that I have nothing to add to His list of attributes but to say thank you Lord that you even care about me.

I did not come to these things by means of a happy trail, the road is hard and narrow, but He leads us on if we keep our eyes off ourselves and focused completely on Jesus.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2008, 06:04 PM
Because... in and of ourselves... we are worthless. ;)

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 06:10 PM
Studyin'2show,

I do not assume you are self-righteous, oh forgive me if my words implied that.

But you said it was because of your brokeness that HE lifted you, and BECAUSE you recognize that, now, you press on to that upward call!! You seek to please Him because you know that what He has done you don't deserve. You want to do the things that please Him, not because He commands it, because you know He deserves it, and you love Him, right?Mark, somehow I think we're talking apples and oranges. Kind of like the song 'Smell the Color Nine' by Christian artist Chris Rice. You posted here saying this:
It is impossible to even think we can do this. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can,t!!!! To keep the first one do you realize that you have to do this 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of your life?? Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but your conclusion seems to be - so why try! This is why I quote Ephesians 5:1 to point out WHY we should try.....because we ARE to imitate God, even in His perfection, we are to be imitators.

You are correct that I love Him and this is my motivation to be an imitator. What I won't do is go against what the word of God says. I will not call myself an unrighteous sinner (not anymore) when His word calls me the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)). When His word tells me He has removed my sin as far as east is from west (Psalms 103:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=103&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)). When His word tells me that His blood HAS cleansed me from ALL sin (1 John 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)).

God Bless!

My heart's Desire
Jan 14th 2008, 06:18 PM
[B]
Jesus' parable of the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18:9-14 gives us an idea of the outward standard of holiness that the Pharisees observed. This Pharisee did not cheat, steal, or commit adultery. He gave tithes of everything that he possessed and fasted twice each week.

In His sermon on the mount, Jesus is not saying that we have to fast more than twice each week to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Rather, He is exposing the religious leaders' superficial self-righteousness, and He begins to explain through Matthew 6:18 that God is looking on the heart (1 Sam. 16:7). The scribes and Pharisees had put all of the emphasis on physical acts of compliance with many laws and traditions; but in their hearts, they were still of their father, the devil (Jn. 8:44). They had made the outside clean, but within, they were full of all uncleanness, hypocrisy, and iniquity (Mt. 23:25-28).

The Pharisees, like many people today, were ignorant of achieving right standing (righteousness) with God through simply receiving His forgiveness by faith and were trying to earn salvation by their acts. No one can fulfill God's commands (Rom. 3:23) but Jesus (Heb. 4:15). Therefore, to be righteous, we must put our faith in what He has done for us (Rom. 9:31-10:4; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 3:11-12; 5:4-6).

I also, thought of the verse in Luke. I wanted to say that the Pharasee trusted in Religion and religious acts but In 18:9 Jesus told the parable to people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and they viewed all others with contempt.
We see the difference between the 2 men in vr. 11. The Pharisee lists the things he thinks he is not guilty of...a swindler, unjust, adultery etc. (things a sinner does?)
The he brings in religion. I fast, I pay tithes.
A person who doesn't believe they are a sinner, usually doesn't believe they need saved. So what did he trust in, the fact that he didn't sin or the fact that he fasted and tithed?
Both men prayed saying, God...yet in vr.11 it says the Pharisee prayed this to himself.
In vr. 13 The tax collector just said, God, be merciful to me, A sinner.
Totally a heart matter.

Mark F
Jan 14th 2008, 07:28 PM
Studyin'2show,

I don't think we are talking apples and oranges. I too recognize I have been made righteous in Christ. I have been forgiven all my sin, past, present, and future.

I focused on this:


walked wrote:
Obedience, obedience to what?
Let Christ explain this........
Matthew 22:34
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We haven't been set free from ourobligation to be obedient to all the law and the prophets...We have by Christ righteousness been set free from the results of our failure at keeping all the law and the prophets. We are still obligated to be obedient to all the law and the prophets.


Luke 9:23;
"Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."

This is daily, even though I have the righteousness of Christ and am a new creation, I am still in the flesh and I need to keep that in perspective.


I guess I need to brush up on my communication skills:D

coldfire136
Jan 14th 2008, 07:39 PM
Mark F
The gist of this attitude is something that we receive when we seek to know the deep things of God. The big question?? What is the purpose of all of creation?

I am glad that we are discussing these things. I too want to know the deep things of God.


So people who can choose to reject God choose to believe and glorify Him. To glorify God and enjoy Him forever. (Lets not get sidetracked with this statement, start a new thread if you want to address it please)

Yes. I too believe that people can reject God or glorify God. But I was not talking about God. I was talking about humanity. In the passage that I was quoting from (Mt. 5), Christ seems to suggest that all people already are blessed simply because we take on his yoke. There is nothing in the passage about saying, "We are horrible people." That is what I thought you were saying.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 14th 2008, 08:05 PM
Maybe we can hit rewind and possibly have a do over then. :rolleyes: I still don't think I'm getting your point in response to walked other than the whole 'I can't, I can't, I can't' thing. So yes, I am officially calling for a do over! :lol:

Mark F
Jan 14th 2008, 08:22 PM
Studyin'2show,

Ok. I need till this evening though. After supper I'll take another swing at it.

Mark F
Jan 15th 2008, 01:46 AM
Studyin'2show,

Made it back, had a wonderful supper and reread through the thread. I do want to clear up what as I (so poorly) illustrated that it is impossible to keep the laws, be completely obedient, love the Lord with ALL my heart, ALL my soul, and ALL my mind, I surely am not implying to take an attitude of "why bother trying".

Jesus went on in Matthew 5 to explain that even if I look at a women with the slightest impure thought, I have as much, commited adultry. Or if I am angry without cause, I am guilty of murder.

I am not saying ALL, but MANY don't understand what you have said:


You are correct that I love Him and this is my motivation to be an imitator. What I won't do is go against what the word of God says. I will not call myself an unrighteous sinner (not anymore) when His word calls me the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). When His word tells me He has removed my sin as far as east is from west (Psalms 103:12). When His word tells me that His blood HAS cleansed me from ALL sin (1 John 1:7).

I know that also, I will stand before God in perfect righteousness, Christ's perfect righteousness. My sin is forever removed from the mind of God because as I said before, He sees the blood of my Savior.


My point in my first comment was to recognize that even after years of trusting Him, growing closer, desiring to please Him, in our flesh we continually fail. Again, I think this is something that we eagerly dismiss because we want to think we are doing such a fine job.

The brokeness and the "pit" from which He lifts us should not be something we should quickly try to forget. I want that time in my life to act as a constant reminder of just how close I am to total failure, yet far enough removed to not impede my desire and growth in the Lord.

I think we tend to be overjoyed to forget our failures, and not keep them just close enough to keep us humble, but far enough away that we get a little to confident in our "sucess at obedience".


These verses in 1 Peter 1 get me thinking that all we "have" in Christ is not totally accomplished. Let me elaborate:

3"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."


Now I recognize that because of WHO we believe in and what the Scriptures tells us He will do it is as good as done. I am not trying to sound as though that we cannot rest in His promises and we must question everything, on the contrary we can have confidence in Him.


You are correct that I love Him and this is my motivation to be an imitator. What I won't do is go against what the word of God says. I will not call myself an unrighteous sinner (not anymore) when His word calls me the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). When His word tells me He has removed my sin as far as east is from west (Psalms 103:12). When His word tells me that His blood HAS cleansed me from ALL sin (1 John 1:7).

I wouldn't call you an unrighteous sinner, but do you still sin? How do we balance that? My point being is I agree TOTALLY with your above statement, yet I know I cannot honestly say that I really love the Lord with ALL my heart.....how can I? This is EXTREMELY hard to articulate. I WANT to love the Lord with all my heart, yet I know that one day, I'll loose my focus and something else will draw me away, not totally, more like distract for a time. There will be some who have learned to be better at it but yet, not accomplished. To think that we are being obedient ALL the time is self deception, to think we are obedient most of the time to a degree I think is also to be self-decieved. Most are obedient some of the time, this would include, words, thoughts, and deeds. If we could look into the mind of "an obedient Christian" I would think that they would be ashamed at what is there.

The liberty we have in Christ is so very easily handled with less diligence than it demands, overconfidence is a very dangerous thing, how can we recognize if we are stepping over the line if we can't acknowledge exactly what we are capable of doing?


I also am a firm believer that all Christians should study and learn what exactly to be "in Christ" means, to study and understand what has been done on our behalf by God in Christ Jesus. I understand it (salvation) as a "positional" condition, not a gradual increase as we grow(sanctification).



So, I hope I have not muddied the water even further. I would think that this would be in the "sanctification" area, or we become more able to be obedient when we learn to yeild to the Holy Spirit. A right adjustment to the Holy Spirit is the only way we can be obedient, thus exceeding the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees.

Mark F
Jan 15th 2008, 02:49 AM
Studyin'2show,

Your story of your son in his father's boots is a good one, I get the picture.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 02:50 AM
Thanks for clarifying your position. I still think it's important for believers to imitate our Father. :D As for remaining humble, absolutely! I will never forget the depths from which my Savior has raised me. Thanks for the dialog!

God Bless!

coldfire136
Jan 15th 2008, 03:14 AM
Hi Mark F,
Why did you quote 1 Peter? I am really not following your logic. Thanks for clarifying.

Mark F
Jan 15th 2008, 03:34 AM
coldfire136,

In the OP walked wrote this at the end:


Obedience, obedience to what?
Let Christ explain this........
Matthew 22:34
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We haven't been set free from ourobligation to be obedient to all the law and the prophets...We have by Christ righteousness been set free from the results of our failure at keeping all the law and the prophets. We are still obligated to be obedient to all the law and the prophets.


I commented based on that. In clarifying to Studyin'2show the question (in my mind) was: Is all the Scripture says concerning our righteousness in it's complete state now or yet to come in heaven?

1 Peter 1 in verse 13 (and others) he tells us hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought to us.


13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;KJV

In NKJV:


13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;


The grace that will be brought to us implies something that is to come, for my understanding. When we take the wording of other passages that speak in a completed sense, this seems to look ahead for its completion.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 15th 2008, 10:59 AM
Hello Mark,

I believe this verse in Peter is looking forward to judgment, where we are to receive grace because we will stand before the throne clothed in His righteousness. However, there is grace that has already been afforded us when He gave us that righteousness in which we will stand in that day. :pp That's my understanding of the timing.

God Bless!

coldfire136
Jan 15th 2008, 02:32 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Mark F.

Here's the main problem: 1 Peter and the Gospels have very little in common theologically, so it is hard to compare the two. The theology of the gospels suggests that Jesus would come back within their generation, but by the writing of 1 Peter (will all his mention of heaven and the imperishable) it is clear that they are looking forward more to a future life with Christ than with a present return to Christ in the here and now.

Please explain for me--more coherently--the link you see between the two passages.

Second: The word "grace" here is not the same Greek word as "grace" in the more classic "grace" passages like Ephesians 2:8-9.

Mograce2U
Jan 15th 2008, 05:03 PM
Hello Mark,

I believe this verse in Peter is looking forward to judgment, where we are to receive grace because we will stand before the throne clothed in His righteousness. However, there is grace that has already been afforded us when He gave us that righteousness in which we will stand in that day. :pp That's my understanding of the timing.

God Bless!I think a particular judgment that was soon to come was in Peter's view. A judgment that would reveal Jesus ruling in power and also reveal who was approved by God and who was not.

Mark F
Jan 15th 2008, 06:04 PM
Studyin'2show and coldfire136,

I see your point and will give it somethought, thanks for your insight.


coldfire136,

You mention the theology not being similar, I think not. I see a significance to the nation of Israel that you don't and I base that on your statement:


The theology of the gospels suggests that Jesus would come back within their generation, but by the writing of 1 Peter (will all his mention of heaven and the imperishable) it is clear that they are looking forward more to a future life with Christ than with a present return to Christ in the here and now.

IMO this will cause us to see many things differently, sorry.

BTW, I didn't check the Greek, don't speak Greek so I'll have to do some homework on that use of "grace".


I read here lately someone made a rather significant statement to this interpretation and I cannot recall where I read it, but it was something along these lines:

Mark 13:32;
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."


How could Jesus name a specific generation in time if He said not even the Son knows? (which is off track from the OP)

Mograce2U
Jan 15th 2008, 06:41 PM
Studyin'2show and coldfire136,

I see your point and will give it somethought, thanks for your insight.

coldfire136,

You mention the theology not being similar, I think not. I see a significance to the nation of Israel that you don't and I base that on your statement:
...

IMO this will cause us to see many things differently, sorry.

BTW, I didn't check the Greek, don't speak Greek so I'll have to do some homework on that use of "grace".

I read here lately someone made a rather significant statement to this interpretation and I cannot recall where I read it, but it was something along these lines:

Mark 13:32;
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

How could Jesus name a specific generation in time if He said not even the Son knows? (which is off track from the OP)It would seem to be the exact day and hour was not known, only that it would come in their generation - hence the need to watch for the signs He was giving them.

Prophecy is usually given with specific markers rather than with specific dates. Even in Daniel, the cross is given as the marker for the 70th week to show us its fulfillment. Which some succumb to counting days and years, missing what that marker was intended to show them in the time frame that it was given. With the correct identity of the marker, the dates can then be applied with more accuracy.

Which is just my observation.

brakelite
Jan 16th 2008, 10:53 AM
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

In the custom of the day, the groom's father would provide the appropriate garments for the wedding. We see here in the parable that there is an investigation by the king to ensure that all are appropriately attired. One guest had chosen not to wear the garment provided him, trusting in his own dress, in effect saying, "I'm okay as I am thanks."
We are invited to the wedding of all weddings. The Son of the King of the universe is coming soon to collect His bride. The problem is the bride doesn't want to get ready. She has a problem with the wedding garment. She thinks sometimes that her own is sufficient. Self righteousness. She thinks sometimes that the King's choice of garment doesn't suit, or it's the wrong size, or it's too hard to wear. Doubt.
But in the final analysis, only the garment of Christs righteousness will give us entry to the wedding feast.
We are told that judgement begins in the house of God. I beleive that is taking place now. The King is now investigating the attire of the invited guests to see if they are appropriatley clothed before His Son appears in the clouds of heaven to take His bride home. Christ's righteousness is offered us as a gift. Let us allow God to put it on us now, so that when Christ comes for His bride, we are ready.

Studyin'2Show
Jan 16th 2008, 12:45 PM
It's my understanding that another custom was for the groom to go back to his father's house and to begin preparing an addition for he and his bride to share (Yeshua said I go to prepare a place for you). Then once the place was ready, the groom would go to get the bride, who would have been getting her things ready so she would be prepared when her groom arrived; unannounced and at an unspecified time.

walked
Jan 16th 2008, 12:54 PM
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

In the custom of the day, the groom's father would provide the appropriate garments for the wedding. We see here in the parable that there is an investigation by the king to ensure that all are appropriately attired. One guest had chosen not to wear the garment provided him, trusting in his own dress, in effect saying, "I'm okay as I am thanks."
We are invited to the wedding of all weddings. The Son of the King of the universe is coming soon to collect His bride. The problem is the bride doesn't want to get ready. She has a problem with the wedding garment. She thinks sometimes that her own is sufficient. Self righteousness. She thinks sometimes that the King's choice of garment doesn't suit, or it's the wrong size, or it's too hard to wear. Doubt.
But in the final analysis, only the garment of Christs righteousness will give us entry to the wedding feast.
We are told that judgement begins in the house of God. I beleive that is taking place now. The King is now investigating the attire of the invited guests to see if they are appropriatley clothed before His Son appears in the clouds of heaven to take His bride home. Christ's righteousness is offered us as a gift. Let us allow God to put it on us now, so that when Christ comes for His bride, we are ready.

Amen! :pp :pp :pp :pp :pp :pp ....Nice post brakelite. (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=22348)

God bless you.

jiggyfly
Jan 16th 2008, 01:00 PM
Very nice posts Brakelite and Study, there are huge differences between eastern and western wedding/ marriage ceremonies and practices. Nice to see posts that reinforce it is not all about the bride but rather all about the Groom.

coldfire136
Jan 16th 2008, 07:37 PM
Hi brakelite,

1. Where did you get the information for interpreting the passage in this way? What primary or secondary sources support such an interpretation?

Studyin'2Show
Jan 16th 2008, 08:15 PM
Hi brakelite,

1. Where did you get the information for interpreting the passage in this way? What primary or secondary sources support such an interpretation?
How do you interpret the passage?

brakelite
Jan 16th 2008, 10:08 PM
Hi brakelite,

1. Where did you get the information for interpreting the passage in this way? What primary or secondary sources support such an interpretation?


1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

coldfire136
Jan 19th 2008, 09:05 PM
Brakelite,
I have no idea what you are talking about. The primary source that you quoted has nothing to do with the time of Jesus (it was written hundreds of years before), and the quote has nothing to do with a wedding. It is a vision of Zechariah. Let me ask again, and this time, please answer the question:

Where do you get your evidence that a groom's father would provide wedding clothes for a wedding?