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mlaw31
Jan 14th 2008, 07:15 AM
Before everyone gets upset I am not calling you pagans, I am spirit filled, talk in tongues, and believe in laying on hands ... Do you call yourself a Gentile? If so according to strong's #1471 you are a heathen and according to strong's# 1484 you are a pagan. Gentile means pagan confused and with out God. So why do Christians call themselves gentiles?

th1bill
Jan 14th 2008, 07:33 AM
Before everyone starts speaking in tongues and casting demons out of me and rebuking me in the name of Jesus... (not making light of these things I am spirit filled, talk in tongues, and believe in laying on hands) ... Do you call yourself a Gentile? If so according to strong's #1471 you are a heathen and according to strong's# 1484 you are a pagan. Gentile means pagan confused and with out God. So why do Christians call themselves gentiles?
.. Alright, I'm confused! When you signed on you stated you were not a Christian and yet you claim to be spirit filled, speak in tongues and believe in laying on of hands. Sounds Penticostal to me and that's a Christian. And then out of the dust of confusion comes the question that any studied Christian knows the answer to.
.. So be honest and tell us what you are. The answer to your question is that from the original Child of God's view the are two types of people in the world, Jew and Gentile. Since I'm not Jewish and I am a Christian, I'm a Gentile grafted into the Family of God.
.. Now, please, whose leg are you trying to pull?

mlaw31
Jan 14th 2008, 08:31 AM
I am not trying to start confusion I am not trying to pull your leg. I am not making this stuff up look it for yourself, I gave you the reference numbers. My point is those who believe in God should never have referred to as a Gentile, and never refer to themselves as Gentiles. It would have been more appropiate if the translators of the bible would have used another word, like nations. That is the very reason Jews will not listen to a Christian talk about Jesus you refer to your selves as Gentiles which mean pagan. Why would a God fearing Jew listen to someone who calls themselves a pagan? If you are interested in me and my beliefs please see the intro titled "shalom"

diffangle
Jan 14th 2008, 03:01 PM
Act 13:48 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=13&verse=48&version=kjv#48)And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Master: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Gentiles in Greek is ethnos (Strong's G1484) meaning...

1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
a) the human family
3) a tribe, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

It has multiple meanings.

mike1983
Jan 14th 2008, 03:12 PM
Originally we were pagans yes, because God chose the Jews as His people. So all non-Jews are pagans. Some Jews misinterpret the scriptures that they are born saved, simply because of their heritage.
"Jew" symbolizes the name for the people of God. So if you are saved (only possible through faith) you're a Jew. If you believe in the one true God (Jesus) you are a Jew. If you believe in something else you're a pagan.

God bless!

Tanya~
Jan 14th 2008, 03:28 PM
Originally we were pagans yes, because God chose the Jews as His people. So all non-Jews are pagans. Some Jews misinterpret the scriptures that they are born saved, simply because of their heritage.
"Jew" symbolizes the name for the people of God. So if you are saved (only possible through faith) you're a Jew. If you believe in the one true God (Jesus) you are a Jew. If you believe in something else you're a pagan.



I would recommend a close reading and study of the book of Ephesians. It will show you that Gentiles who become Christians are not Jews and do not become Jews, but we are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God through faith in Christ.

To become a Jew, we would have to do those things that the church in the beginning deemed not required-- particularly circumcision and keeping the Sabbaths, New Moons, holy days, and dietary commands. We would have to become Jewish proselytes before we could be accepted. This was the earliest controversy within the church, that became an issue as soon as God accepted the God-fearing Gentiles apart from the law.

th1bill
Jan 14th 2008, 06:51 PM
I am not trying to start confusion I am not trying to pull your leg. I am not making this stuff up look it for yourself, I gave you the reference numbers. My point is those who believe in God should never have referred to as a Gentile, and never refer to themselves as Gentiles. It would have been more appropiate if the translators of the bible would have used another word, like nations. That is the very reason Jews will not listen to a Christian talk about Jesus you refer to your selves as Gentiles which mean pagan. Why would a God fearing Jew listen to someone who calls themselves a pagan? If you are interested in me and my beliefs please see the intro titled "shalom"
.. Diff beat me to it but yes, we are concerned about the Jewish brethren. And the problem is that we know our position very well and we hqve chosen honesty. Your problem is very similar to the Watch Tower people when they translated the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. you have and they did assign a single meaning to a word and the both of you have ignored contextual implication.
.. As a man that has traveled the entire world I have had to become familiar with a number of languages during my travels. The one constant I have found is context! ie. If I say, as Texans oft do, "Ot's pouring cats and puppy dogs out there right now." The kids will be very disapointed if they scamper to the door, expecting to find buckets of critters falling out of the sky. No, they will likely be yelled at by mom to close that door and not let the rian into the house. You are understanding the word used by your personal defintion and are totally disregarding the context from which the satement was drawn.
.. I hope this helps.

ServantofTruth
Jan 14th 2008, 07:09 PM
Before everyone starts speaking in tongues and casting demons out of me and rebuking me in the name of Jesus... (not making light of these things I am spirit filled, talk in tongues, and believe in laying on hands) ... Do you call yourself a Gentile? If so according to strong's #1471 you are a heathen and according to strong's# 1484 you are a pagan. Gentile means pagan confused and with out God. So why do Christians call themselves gentiles?

I'm obviously uneducated. What are strong's#1471 and #1484? Doesn't sound like the bible to me! Is this an arguement based on one mans understanding of a translation writen in a book, against another mans view of that understanding in that book, against anyone who wants to post their understanding of that mans understanding against their own understanding of what book says?
Seems like a waste of all our time! It's less important what title is applied to me by you, others on this site or by myself. Let God name me on the last day.

Athanasius
Jan 14th 2008, 09:17 PM
Before everyone starts speaking in tongues and casting demons out of me and rebuking me in the name of Jesus... (not making light of these things I am spirit filled, talk in tongues, and believe in laying on hands) ... Do you call yourself a Gentile? If so according to strong's #1471 you are a heathen and according to strong's# 1484 you are a pagan. Gentile means pagan confused and with out God. So why do Christians call themselves gentiles?

I don't thing Strong claimed Divine inspiration, so I don't see the point?
Personally, I don't go around calling people Pagans or Heathens.

So to ask--which spirit are you filled with? ;)

mlaw31
Jan 14th 2008, 11:08 PM
Strong#1484 (probably from #1486 habit, custom, manner) arace (as the same habit) ie. a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jew) one (usually by implication pagan) Gentile, Heathen, Nation, People. As I stated before it should have been translated more properly as nations which references back to the OT tribes. Specifically the tribe of Ephraim, or the house of Jacob or the nations.

mike1983
Jan 15th 2008, 12:21 AM
I would recommend a close reading and study of the book of Ephesians. It will show you that Gentiles who become Christians are not Jews and do not become Jews, but we are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God through faith in Christ.

To become a Jew, we would have to do those things that the church in the beginning deemed not required-- particularly circumcision and keeping the Sabbaths, New Moons, holy days, and dietary commands. We would have to become Jewish proselytes before we could be accepted. This was the earliest controversy within the church, that became an issue as soon as God accepted the God-fearing Gentiles apart from the law.

We are not apart from the law. Jesus says not one letter will be scraped from the law. Baptism is our circumcision, and it is a circumcision through faith which we still require. We also still have to keep the sabbath, and if there is to be kept any feast or special day, it ought to be a biblical one.
We just don't need to sacrifice anymore, because we already have one.
Does God change? I think not, we still need to keep His commandments and His instructions, OT and NT.

And the Jews (by heritage) who call themselves Jews and don't keep God's commandments, with no sacrifices to pay for the breaking of it (Jesus), aren't really Jews. As Jesus says, Jews who call themselves Jews but really belong to the synagogue of satan.

You are a Jew through faith. And thank God for Jesus taking our sins upon the cross for us not keeping God's law.

God bless!

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 15th 2008, 12:23 AM
Strong#1484 (probably from #1486 habit, custom, manner) arace (as the same habit) ie. a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jew) one (usually by implication pagan) Gentile, Heathen, Nation, People. As I stated before it should have been translated more properly as nations which references back to the OT tribes. Specifically the tribe of Ephraim, or the house of Jacob or the nations.
You ever say you're happy? In the the 50's you would have said you were gay. Context is everything...

markedward
Jan 15th 2008, 12:29 AM
So why do Christians call themselves gentiles?Who said they do?

I don't consider myself a "Gentile," and in response to your initial post, I don't consider myself a "Pagan" or "Heathen" either.

Also consider that the word in our modern-day doesn't carry the same connotations (cultural definitions and meanings) that the word may have carried two thousand years ago. In the most generic sense possible, being a "Gentile" simply meant to not be a "Jew." But it was the day and age that the term was originally used that made the word synonymous with "pagan" or "heathen." In modern-day, "Gentile" in the most generic sense means "not a Jew," but it isn't generally used as a synonym for "pagan" or "heathen" anymore.

As the previous poster used as an example, the word "gay" in modern-day carries completely different connotations and synonyms than it did fifty years ago.


Before everyone starts speaking in tongues and casting demons out of me and rebuking me in the name of JesusWhy do you assume that we're going to react so drastically to a simple question? It seems that you have many mistaken assumptions about how Christians should act (that, or else you've met or seen too many Christians overreact to such questions).

RoadWarrior
Jan 15th 2008, 12:31 AM
Strong#1484 (probably from #1486 habit, custom, manner) arace (as the same habit) ie. a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jew) one (usually by implication pagan) Gentile, Heathen, Nation, People. As I stated before it should have been translated more properly as nations which references back to the OT tribes. Specifically the tribe of Ephraim, or the house of Jacob or the nations.

mlaw, are you suggesting that you are directly descended from the tribe of Ephraim?

mlaw31
Jan 15th 2008, 03:59 AM
A few people referred to the time and text the word Gentile was used. That it is no longer used in that fashion like the word happy... But the problem I see with that is in the time the bible was written Gentile did mean pagan, and we cannot take it out of context or the change the meaning to fit our understanding. An understanding of the word of God comes from revelation through the spirit of God and study. What I am simply saying regardless if people believe it or not, Christians never should have been called Gentiles. The word ethnos #1484 should have translated as nations. Then it would coincide with the rest of the scriptures and the context in which it was used. I agree the context around the scriptures are referring to a group of people who are not pagan. So why use a word that means pagan? Why not use the word tat best fits "nations" As far as the comment I made (which I have now changed) at the start of this thread if it offended any one that was not my intentions. As I said I was not making light of those things, but simply joking to try to lessen the intensity behind what I said. I have not once degraded anyone or questioned their walk with God, but because I ask questions that conflict with what people have been taught and/or read I am attacked. I do not understand why we cannot discuss scripture as adults with out degrading one another. I am not calling you pagans I am saying once again the word gentile should never have been used. The word of God is consistent through out.

RoadWarrior
Jan 15th 2008, 04:10 AM
A few people referred to the time and text the word Gentile was used. That it is no longer used in that fashion like the word happy... But the problem I see with that is in the time the bible was written Gentile did mean pagan, and we cannot take it out of context or the change the meaning to fit our understanding. An understanding of the word of God comes from revelation through the spirit of God and study. What I am simply saying regardless if people believe it or not, Christians never should have been called Gentiles. The word ethnos #1484 should have translated as nations. Then it would coincide with the rest of the scriptures and the context in which it was used. I agree the context around the scriptures are referring to a group of people who are not pagan. So why use a word that means pagan? Why not use the word tat best fits "nations" As far as the comment I made (which I have now changed) at the start of this thread if it offended any one that was not my intentions. As I said I was not making light of those things, but simply joking to try to lessen the intensity behind what I said. I have not once degraded anyone or questioned their walk with God, but because I ask questions that conflict with what people have been taught and/or read I am attacked. I do not understand why we cannot discuss scripture as adults with out degrading one another. I am not calling you pagans I am saying once again the word gentile should never have been used. The word of God is consistent through out.

mlaw, do you not realize that the people outside of the Jewish nation were, in fact, pagans?

Do you not also realize that we do not call ourselves Gentiles, but we call ourselves Christians?

Why should we call ourselves the tribe of Ephraim? or nations?

I am an American. It never occurs to me to think of myself as a Gentile.

I wonder why this is so important to you? Why is it such an intense issue for you?

Thanks.

diffangle
Jan 15th 2008, 04:15 AM
A few people referred to the time and text the word Gentile was used. That it is no longer used in that fashion like the word happy... But the problem I see with that is in the time the bible was written Gentile did mean pagan, and we cannot take it out of context or the change the meaning to fit our understanding. An understanding of the word of God comes from revelation through the spirit of God and study. What I am simply saying regardless if people believe it or not, Christians never should have been called Gentiles. The word ethnos #1484 should have translated as nations. Then it would coincide with the rest of the scriptures and the context in which it was used. I agree the context around the scriptures are referring to a group of people who are not pagan. So why use a word that means pagan? Why not use the word tat best fits "nations" As far as the comment I made (which I have now changed) at the start of this thread if it offended any one that was not my intentions. As I said I was not making light of those things, but simply joking to try to lessen the intensity behind what I said. I have not once degraded anyone or questioned their walk with God, but because I ask questions that conflict with what people have been taught and/or read I am attacked. I do not understand why we cannot discuss scripture as adults with out degrading one another. I am not calling you pagans I am saying once again the word gentile should never have been used. The word of God is consistent through out.
I'm not offended by anything you've said, so let's discuss this. As i pointed out on my previous post...

Gentiles in Greek is ethnos (Strong's G1484) meaning...

1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
a) the human family
3) a tribe, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

In your OP you reference Strong's but now you're saying the word can't have multiple meanings... I'm confused, do you want to discuss the Strong's meaning of the word or not? B/c according to Strong's it does have multiple meaning's... one being nation, another being Gentile Christians.:confused

Tanya~
Jan 15th 2008, 04:51 AM
A few people referred to the time and text the word Gentile was used. That it is no longer used in that fashion like the word happy... But the problem I see with that is in the time the bible was written Gentile did mean pagan,

The first use of Gentile (goyim) is in Genesis 10, and it refers to the division of the nations after Babel. It relates to the division of people according to their language. The word became synonymous with Pagan because God had separated out His people Israel, while the other nations worshiped other gods.

markedward
Jan 15th 2008, 05:19 AM
Just a question to the OP:

You apparently adhere to the teachings of the Bible and consider yourself a follower of Christ... so why do consider yourself as not a Christian?

daughter
Jan 15th 2008, 11:50 AM
I've read the introductory thread, Shalom, and have asked there, because I'm interested in the answer.

Heathen is an English term referring to those who lived on heaths, who often worshipped nature gods etc. It only refers to a fraction of what the terms goyim or ethnos do in the Hebrew and Greek. Pagan specifically refers to those who worship false gods. Unless Christians worship a false god, we cannot by definition, be considered pagans.

We are however part of the nations, so goyim, or gentile, as a term doesn't bother me.

David Taylor
Jan 15th 2008, 01:24 PM
Before everyone gets upset I am not calling you pagans, I am spirit filled, talk in tongues, and believe in laying on hands ... Do you call yourself a Gentile? If so according to strong's #1471 you are a heathen and according to strong's# 1484 you are a pagan. Gentile means pagan confused and with out God. So why do Christians call themselves gentiles?

Nutshell
During the OT their were the Jews who sometimes followed God, and the Gentiles, who were everyone non-Jew, who nearly never followed God.

Therefore because of this, in the OT, and even in the NT before the gospel began to go out fervantly beyond the Jews, the Gentiles were referred to as Heathens and Pagans....because they followed idolatry, were not Jews following God, etc.

When the Gospel began to go out and be received in masse, by millions of Gentiles, those new believers no longer were heathen or pagan.

No Christ-believing, born-again, blood-redeemed non-Jew aka Gentile is a pagan or heathen.

However, then term 'Gentile' stuck.....(Also as said above, 'Gentile' is rendered synonymous with 'Nations' from its root word of 'ethnos'; where we get ethnicity)....so it is used today, in a non-religious manner.

And continues to this day to be used as a term for 'non-Jew'...but not pagan or heathen anymore......(although there are pagan's and heathen's about found within both Jew and non-Jew groups alike.)

mlaw31
Jan 15th 2008, 07:17 PM
RoadWarrior,
It seems to me that this topic bothers you. It does not bother me, it is just that I have heard it preached and still do that Christians are Gentiles. I have heard Christians say they are Gentiles. Gentile means pagan confused and without God, which is what people were if they did not serve the God of the Jews. Without God. Christians as far as I am concerned are not Gentiles which mean they are not pagans. All I am saying is once you know better you do better. Do not call yourselves Gentiles it means pagan, there is no way around this truth. It seems to me you think I am trying to persecute you when I m trying to give you a greater understanding, or is it too much to learn from a non- christian.

markedward
Jan 15th 2008, 07:29 PM
Do not call yourselves Gentiles it means pagan.No offense to you, but it seems you have no concept of "cultural understanding." The example used before was that fifty years ago, the word "gay" meant "happy" or "joyous." Now, the word "gay" means "homosexual." The word itself is exactly the same, but the culture of the US changed over the last fifty years, and the word simply does not mean the same thing as it did before. The word has multiple uses, not just one. Nowadays, the word "gay" means primarily "homosexual," but it still has the older and less used definition of "joyous." It's the same thing with the word "gentile." Nowadays "gentile" primarily means "non-Jew," but it still has the older and less used definition of "pagan."

Now, I still would like an answer to my previous question; you apparently (I apologize if I am wrong) follow the Bible and even Christ, so why do you consider yourself a non-Christian?

(I also have another question; did you come to these boards to ask questions to Christians or did you come to tell them what they believe is wrong?)

diffangle
Jan 15th 2008, 07:38 PM
RoadWarrior,
It seems to me that this topic bothers you. It does not bother me, it is just that I have heard it preached and still do that Christians are Gentiles. I have heard Christians say they are Gentiles. Gentile means pagan confused and without God, which is what people were if they did not serve the God of the Jews. Without God. Christians as far as I am concerned are not Gentiles which mean they are not pagans. All I am saying is once you know better you do better. Do not call yourselves Gentiles it means pagan, there is no way around this truth. It seems to me you think I am trying to persecute you when I m trying to give you a greater understanding, or is it too much to learn from a non- christian.
Mlaw, are you listening to anything we're saying? :confused We have shown you that it has more than one meaning but you still seem stuck on picking the one(and ignoring the other def's) strong's definition that you want it to mean. :hmm:

Athanasius
Jan 15th 2008, 08:14 PM
When describing the world Gentile and Pagan this way, three fallacies can be occuring:

1) Root Fallacy -- A word is bound by by its 'shape'
2) Semantic anachromism -- A 'later' definition is imposed upon a words 'former' definition
3) Semantic obsolescence -- Use of an obsolete word

I would say for the most part, the second fallacy is occuring.

mlaw31
Jan 15th 2008, 08:21 PM
mark- I answered your question just a few minutes ago in the intro thread. All- And as far as the word goyim having multiple meanings correct it does. I knew that when I made the thread, but how the word is used still has not changed. You can say gentile means non-Jew. Ok I will give you that, but then ,and now a non-Jew is someone with out the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob. Which means pagan.God Himself came and died so we who were not His people can be His people. In other words Those who were gentiles can now be God's people. Read Hosea. I am listening to all of you, but it seems you are not willing to listen to me. I am not trying to convince you to believe what I believe, I am simply pointing out the facts come to your on conclusion based on them. I did not mention anything that does not have facts to prove it. You do not have to believe in gravity but it is there.
mark- you also asked me if I came here to ask questions from Christians or to tell you, you are wrong. First I did not come here to ask questions, I was forced to post here because I will not say I am a Christian. I came to this forum to discuss the scriptures and love for our God. To the second part of your question am I saying you all are wrong, No I am not, but read through the threads even those who call themselves Christians stress their understanding and they do not always agree. It is just in here it is not Christians discussing Christian things, and I do not know if you are aware of this or not but it seems to be a loaded conversation when a non-Christian cannot even reply to any thread but their own. My view in comparison to all of yours. Furthermore, you can not take a word of that time and apply todays common meaning to it. ie) Thirty years ago you could say "We will have a gay ol time" (the Flinstones theme song) Then gay meant happy regardless of what it means today then it meant happy. You cannot replace the word gay with homosexual and read the sentence as"We will have a homosexual time" and it carry the same meaning. So why try to do it with scripture? When reading scripture and referencing to yourself according to the scripture you have to use the word in that time in that context. ethnos=pagan. Not Christian maybe now but now then. So you cannot say according to the scripture I am a gentile a Christian, no according to the scripture if you are a gentile you are a pagan. Those who have ears to hear let them hear.

markedward
Jan 15th 2008, 08:40 PM
but how the word is used still has not changed.Obviously it has; the very fact that the word means something different to our modern culture than it did to ancient cultures completely shows that "how the word is used" has changed.


and I do not know if you are aware of this or not but it seems to be a loaded conversation when a non-Christian cannot even reply to any thread but their own. My view in comparison to all of yours.This is a Christian message board. The message board is intended for Christians to discuss things with other Christians. The reason non-Christians are "confined" to the Christians Answer section is because the message board as a whole is intended for Christians to discuss things with Christians. If you think the boards are "loaded" then you don't seem to understand the purpose for the message board. If you go to a baseball field, it's obvious it's a place people who want to play baseball, not hockey. If you go to a Star Trek convention, it's obvious that it's a place for fans of Star Trek, not fans of Golden Girls. If you go to a Christian message board, it should be obvious that it's a place for Christians to talk with Christians. The reason for the Christians Answer section is, of course, for non-Christians to interact with the Christians. Also consider reading these, since they directly address the points you raise:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=90835
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=79388

No, I am not telling you to "get lost" or anything of the sort. It would definitely be enjoyable for you to stay, but it seems you don't want to understand the purpose of the message board as a whole, or even the purpose of the Christians Answer section.


Furthermore, you can not take a word of that time and apply todays common meaning to it. ie) Thirty years ago you could say "We will have a gay ol time" (the Flinstones theme song) Then gay meant happy regardless of what it means today then it meant happy. You cannot replace the word gay with homosexual and read the sentence as"We will have a homosexual time" and it carry the same meaning.I didn't say that. My intended meaning should have been obvious, but I'll spell it out: Fifty years ago someone could say "That's so gay!" and everyone around them would know they were describing something as being joyful or happy. Nowadays if someone says "That's so gay!" everyone around them would know they were making a derogatory remark by comparing whatever "that" is to homosexuality. Honestly, it's like you're not even trying to understand what I or anyone else here is saying.

mlaw31
Jan 15th 2008, 09:11 PM
I completely understand the reasoning behind the message board, but it does not change the fact we serve the same God and should be able to discuss scripture. I unlike some or even most non-christians do love Jesus. It is not that I am not listening to any of you, to me it seems to be the other way around. So let me spell it out for you--- If you say you are gentile in reference to scriptures you are calling yourself a pagan. If you tell someone who is Jewish or speaks Hebrew you are a gentile they will interpret it as pagan. Regardless of what you want to believe. The word gentile has not changed except for those who have read the scripture and interpreted it as Christian. Hebrew is a pure language and it will come back. I honestly do not care what you call yourself or if you get the understanding or not. Like I said before it is a shame that a title can keep someone from accepting what one is saying. If I would have logged on as a Christian I am sure this conversation would be quiet different. But since I did not this is the result. You say it would be enjoyable for me to stay but it does not seem to me that you or most of the people are willing to see me as a God fearing man. It seems you forget I do serve the same God you do, so unlike most of the non-Christians here I do not need you to save me or teach me Christian principles or beliefs, if you took the time to read my intro you would know I was were you are, but through progressive revelation I no more now than what I once did. I know more today then I did yesterday , because of the revelation I received. So, do I need your criticism no, will like your input yes. I do not know it all and believe God talks to His people the instruction God gave you might be for me, the difference is I am willing to at least listen. We have to stop looking at the word of God so straight line, there are many facets to the word of God hence new revelation on the same scripture, and if you quit trying to put me down and pick apart everything I say you might just learn something :)

Athanasius
Jan 15th 2008, 09:43 PM
No one here would normally describe themselves as a Gentile; Pagan.
So I think whether or not you identified yourself as a Christian, this thread would have resulted in the same discourse.

Words are arbitrary, why you keep pursuing this idea that they don't change--but they do; is. . . Beyond me.

As I recall it was Jews who labeled non-Jews as Gentiles.
Christians were Christians, they weren't 'Gentile Christians'.

mlaw31
Jan 15th 2008, 09:53 PM
You are right Jews did label non-Jews as gentiles which meant pagan and it is still a term they use today to mean the same thing. I am not saying the meaning of words do not change, but it simply depends on who you ask. The word _igga means something totally different to the black community depending on who is using it. A white man cannot call a black a -igga but black men will use it as a word of brotherhood. What did it mean years ago we all know the answer to that. What does it mean if a white man calls a black man that today, we all know the answer to that. Why is it taboo to say today, we all know the answer to that. So did the word change yes and no. Only to those whom it was directed toward,they took something once taboo and now use it as brotherhood and not the way it was attended. Does the rest of the world use it that way no. Trust me on this I am a black man. Gentile is the same way.

David Taylor
Jan 15th 2008, 11:25 PM
Mlaw,

Could you throw in a few paragraph breaks every now and again?

When all of your posts are one continuously chain of sentences, it is very hard to read.


We would much appreciate it!


In other words, instead of the run-on format you gave us here:


I completely understand the reasoning behind the message board, but it does not change the fact we serve the same God and should be able to discuss scripture. I unlike some or even most non-christians do love Jesus. It is not that I am not listening to any of you, to me it seems to be the other way around. So let me spell it out for you--- If you say you are gentile in reference to scriptures you are calling yourself a pagan. If you tell someone who is Jewish or speaks Hebrew you are a gentile they will interpret it as pagan. Regardless of what you want to believe. The word gentile has not changed except for those who have read the scripture and interpreted it as Christian. Hebrew is a pure language and it will come back. I honestly do not care what you call yourself or if you get the understanding or not. Like I said before it is a shame that a title can keep someone from accepting what one is saying. If I would have logged on as a Christian I am sure this conversation would be quiet different. But since I did not this is the result. You say it would be enjoyable for me to stay but it does not seem to me that you or most of the people are willing to see me as a God fearing man. It seems you forget I do serve the same God you do, so unlike most of the non-Christians here I do not need you to save me or teach me Christian principles or beliefs, if you took the time to read my intro you would know I was were you are, but through progressive revelation I no more now than what I once did. I know more today then I did yesterday , because of the revelation I received. So, do I need your criticism no, will like your input yes. I do not know it all and believe God talks to His people the instruction God gave you might be for me, the difference is I am willing to at least listen. We have to stop looking at the word of God so straight line, there are many facets to the word of God hence new revelation on the same scripture, and if you quit trying to put me down and pick apart everything I say you might just learn something :)

How about doing it like this:


I completely understand the reasoning behind the message board, but it does not change the fact we serve the same God and should be able to discuss scripture.

I unlike some or even most non-christians do love Jesus. It is not that I am not listening to any of you, to me it seems to be the other way around.

So let me spell it out for you--- If you say you are gentile in reference to scriptures you are calling yourself a pagan. If you tell someone who is Jewish or speaks Hebrew you are a gentile they will interpret it as pagan. Regardless of what you want to believe.

The word gentile has not changed except for those who have read the scripture and interpreted it as Christian. Hebrew is a pure language and it will come back. I honestly do not care what you call yourself or if you get the understanding or not. Like I said before it is a shame that a title can keep someone from accepting what one is saying.

If I would have logged on as a Christian I am sure this conversation would be quiet different. But since I did not this is the result. You say it would be enjoyable for me to stay but it does not seem to me that you or most of the people are willing to see me as a God fearing man.

It seems you forget I do serve the same God you do, so unlike most of the non-Christians here I do not need you to save me or teach me Christian principles or beliefs, if you took the time to read my intro you would know I was were you are, but through progressive revelation I no more now than what I once did.

I know more today then I did yesterday , because of the revelation I received. So, do I need your criticism no, will like your input yes. I do not know it all and believe God talks to His people the instruction God gave you might be for me, the difference is I am willing to at least listen.

We have to stop looking at the word of God so straight line, there are many facets to the word of God hence new revelation on the same scripture, and if you quit trying to put me down and pick apart everything I say you might just learn something :)

markedward
Jan 15th 2008, 11:46 PM
So let me spell it out for you--- If you say you are gentile in reference to scriptures you are calling yourself a pagan. If you tell someone who is Jewish or speaks Hebrew you are a gentile they will interpret it as pagan.Well, I suppose that would go for speaking to someone who is Jewish... but then again, Jews are a very small minority in the US (where most of the users of the board are from), so I'd hardly call that something to worry about.


If I would have logged on as a Christian I am sure this conversation would be quiet different.You can't say that for sure. In essence, it has nothing to do with who you are, but that you made statements equivalent to "Christians are calling themselves pagans." Even if that statement came from a Christian, most Christians would still disagree with such a statement. Everyone here has acknowledged that "gentile" can be synonymous with "pagan" but that it is not always synonymous. Some people have already pointed out that in the Bible itself "gentile" was even used to denote non-Jews, but not in the sense of them being "pagans." As in; there are many passages (most in the New Testament) where you can replace the word "gentile" with "non-Jew" and it would make exactly the same sense as before. Examples:

Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

turns into

Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of non-Jews too? Yes, of non-Jews too,

Or this one:

For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

turns into

For there is no difference between Jew and non-Jew—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Obviously Paul (these are both from the epistle to the Romans) is telling us that in following a God, a person isn't a "Jew" or a "Gentile." They're simply followers of God.


It seems you forget I do serve the same God you do, so unlike most of the non-Christians here I do not need you to save me or teach me Christian principles or beliefs,Why do you consider yourself "non-Christian" if you follow the Christ/Messiah? Maybe you were a Jew before becoming a follower of Jesus... but in that case, you fit the definition of "Christian" (follower of Jesus "the Christ"). If you believe the same thing that most Christians believe, then you are in essence a "Christian." If you could go up to any person on the street and say "I follow Jesus" they would immediately assume you were a "Christian." So why do you divide yourself from "Christians" when you yourself are a "Christian" by definition?

Yes, I did read your introduction post, and I already saw why you don't consider yourself "Christian." (Ironically, you appeal to the multiple definitions of "Christian" there, but in this thread you claim everyone accepts "pagan" as the only definition for "gentile.") But the most basic and generic definition you can get for "Christian" is "follower of Jesus 'the Christ.'" You're dividing yourself from the rest of the "body of Christ" over a mere matter of word-play.

RoadWarrior
Jan 15th 2008, 11:56 PM
I completely understand the reasoning behind the message board, but it does not change the fact we serve the same God and should be able to discuss scripture.

mlaw, discussing scripture is easier if we do not start out with controversy and contention. It is more difficult to have a reasonable conversation when the OP starts out expecting the responders to be offended. Perhaps you would like to slow down a bit and think about how you are coming across. Most people on this board are perfectly reasonable individuals, and will discuss practically anything! And we LOVE to talk about scripture.


I unlike some or even most non-christians do love Jesus.

I am glad to hear this. If you love Jesus, then we have common ground, even though we are different in so many other facets of our faiths.


It is not that I am not listening to any of you, to me it seems to be the other way around.

We are trying to listen, M. But we want to have conversation. Several people have made points to which you have not responded. I realize it is probably difficult for you in that there are several of us.


So let me spell it out for you--- If you say you are gentile in reference to scriptures you are calling yourself a pagan.

This is an example. I spoke plainly to you, as did at least one other poster, that we do not call ourselves Gentiles. If someone calls me that, and I don't know about it, well it just isn't a problem for me. I call myself Christian, American, Woman, Grandmother, etc., but to identify myself as Gentile just never enters my mind. So while I understand what you are saying, it baffles me as to why it is important to you to make me understand it.


If you tell someone who is Jewish or speaks Hebrew you are a gentile they will interpret it as pagan. Regardless of what you want to believe. The word gentile has not changed except for those who have read the scripture and interpreted it as Christian. Hebrew is a pure language and it will come back.

So, I understand you are studying Hebrew. I understand that you love the language. That is good. But I can never imagine myself, for example if I am in Israel, saying to someone, "I am a Gentile." It just wouldn't happen.


I honestly do not care what you call yourself or if you get the understanding or not. Like I said before it is a shame that a title can keep someone from accepting what one is saying.

You are speaking of a title that you think we apply to ourselves (Gentile) and want to beat some sense into us. Yes, perhaps we need that. But you are at the same time rejecting a title (Christian) that would help us to identify you. If I say, "I am a Christian" then immediately everyone on this board knows that has certain meanings, and gives them a framework to begin conversation with me. If someone says, "I am not a Christian" then we assume a different set of meanings, and a different framework for conversation.

It has taken quite a few posts for us to begin to know who you are and what you believe. There is still a lot to learn on both sides, I am sure.


If I would have logged on as a Christian I am sure this conversation would be quiet different.

Yes, you are right. If you had started this way, then we could have proceeded to the next step of finding in what ways we are similar in our Christian faith, and in what ways we are different. For example, there are several people on this board who do not believe in celebrating the holidays like Christmas and Easter because of the pagan origins. But you don't know that yet. There are many who believe in worshipping on the Sabbath rather than on Sunday, but you also do not yet know that.

<snip>

It seems you forget I do serve the same God you do, so unlike most of the non-Christians here I do not need you to save me or teach me Christian principles or beliefs,

We could not "forget" this without having first known it. If you said "Christian" we would start by expecting that we serve the same God. If you said "non Christian" we start by expecting that you do not know God. It is simple logic, Mlaw, not an automatically offensive position.



if you took the time to read my intro you would know I was were you are, but through progressive revelation I no more now than what I once did. I know more today then I did yesterday , because of the revelation I received.

Hopefully, we are all growing as Christians, and therefore know more today than we did yesterday. Often people will come on this board and say "I was where you are" and then proceed to spew hatred of Christianity. So we tend to be a bit wary of that phrase.


So, do I need your criticism no, will like your input yes. I do not know it all and believe God talks to His people the instruction God gave you might be for me, the difference is I am willing to at least listen.
I am glad that you are willing to listen. It makes it easier to have a conversation if people listen to each other. None of us know it all, but we Christians have a saying, "Iron sharpens iron" which means that as we discuss we can learn and grow.


We have to stop looking at the word of God so straight line, there are many facets to the word of God hence new revelation on the same scripture, and if you quit trying to put me down and pick apart everything I say you might just learn something :)

You might be in for a big surprise. There are quite a few of us on this board who look deeply into the word of God and realize that no matter how much we study, there is always something new to learn.

So, welcome to the board, and I hope that you enjoy your stay with us.

mlaw31
Jan 16th 2008, 12:00 AM
mark-you seem to a very bright young man if you read my reasoning why do you still ask? I have an African Grey Parrot, people often mistake her for a pigeon. They are both birds just like we are both children of God, but they both have distinctive qualities and characteristics that separates the two, and so do we. The basic function might be the same but we are indeed two different breeds.
David Taylor - I have been trying to figure out how to do that, if you fill me in I will be happy to.

mlaw31
Jan 16th 2008, 12:14 AM
road- you said You are speaking of a title that you think we apply to ourselves... but I was referring to me. The lack of the Christian title. And it should not have taken several posts to find out who I was, I made it very clear that I was spirit filled in the very first post starting this thread. I have read through the threads I know some of you do not keep Christmas, and some keep the sabbath. I have done my home work I am well aware of the diversity of the thread.

You also said If I say, "I am a Christian" then immediately everyone on this board knows that has certain meanings, and gives them a framework to begin conversation with me. It is those certain meanings of the title Christian that I do not associate myself with.

I cannot wait for the surprise it has been in my experience in reading other threads as well, that unless you make a general statement such as God is good, then it starts a debate oppose to a discussion.


A lot of people are saying they do not call themselves gentiles but Christians. So... When you are reading scriptures that contain the word gentile do you say to yourself okay this is talking about me.

And road thanks for the welcome:)


mark- you said you would use that term with a Jewish person

but when you are reading the scripture it is a Jewish person speaking. They were never calling you Genties/pagan but the nations. That is the most correct word to place there. It might be a hard pill to swallow, but the translators of our bible could have chosen better words in some cases and this is one of them.

RoadWarrior
Jan 16th 2008, 12:25 AM
<snip>

You also said If I say, "I am a Christian" then immediately everyone on this board knows that has certain meanings, and gives them a framework to begin conversation with me. It is those certain meanings of the title Christian that I do not associate myself with.

mlaw, when I hear "Christian", I expect the person to be a believer in Christ. Are you a believer in Christ? So am I. Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God? So do I.

Those "other meanings" are the differences that we hammer out in the contro and world religions forums here.


I cannot wait for the surprise it has been in my experience in reading other threads as well, that unless you make a general statement such as God is good, then it starts a debate oppose to a discussion.

Perhaps you are going for the wrong threads. Some titles automatically lead to debate! Keep reading. And keep listening.

dljc
Jan 16th 2008, 01:01 AM
Before everyone gets upset I am not calling you pagans, I am spirit filled, talk in tongues, and believe in laying on hands ... Do you call yourself a Gentile? If so according to strong's #1471 you are a heathen and according to strong's# 1484 you are a pagan. Gentile means pagan confused and with out God. So why do Christians call themselves gentiles?As Paul went out to the other people who at the time were gentiles. We too were gentiles until we became Christians. Then we became grafted in as heirs and children of God. So instead of being gentiles now, according to the definition from strong's that you used. We are ex-gentiles instead Christian's children of God. :)

markedward
Jan 16th 2008, 06:54 AM
mark-you seem to a very bright young man if you read my reasoning why do you still ask? I have an African Grey Parrot, people often mistake her for a pigeon. They are both birds just like we are both children of God, but they both have distinctive qualities and characteristics that separates the two, and so do we. The basic function might be the same but we are indeed two different breeds.If there is anything that separates us, it is an unnecessary separation. As shown before, in God there is "neither Jew nor Gentile." We may have different backgrounds as to why we believe what we do, but if you are a follower of Jesus and I am a follower of Jesus, we are of one body (the "body of Christ"), not two "bodies" (a "Jewish" body and a "Gentile" body). I think it's perfectly acceptable to want to hold onto a Jewish background, but it seems that you are unnecessarily dividing the "body of Christ" in half over the mere labels of "Jew" and "Gentile" ("Gentile," here, referring to "non-Jew," not "pagan").

You will notice that in the epistles, there is a distinction between unsaved Jews and unsaved Gentiles; the unsaved Jews are distinct from the Gentiles in that they have the Law and the prophets, so that they should know the Truth about Jesus by the Words of God, while the unsaved Gentiles are distinct from the Jews in that they only have the law of their hearts to guide them to Christ.

But you will also notice that in the epistles, there is no distinction made between saved Jews and saved Gentiles; they are one "body," one "church," one "bride" of Christ. The only differences to be made is in their ancestral backgrounds, nothing else. It seems to me that you're trying to keep up the distinction between "Jewish" followers of Christ and "Gentile" followers of Christ, where there shouldn't be any distinction made. As said before, it's perfectly fine to want to identify with your ancestral background, whether Jewish or Gentile, but when it comes to being a follower of Christ you are to be united with all followers of Christ, not just the ones of the same ancestral background as yourself.

mlaw31
Jan 16th 2008, 07:15 AM
Road- Honestly I thought this could be a topic that could be discussed, it is not the first time I have had this conversation with Christians. If people want to admit it or not being a Christian is more than believing in Jesus.


Look at the 3 main world religions Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Out of the three who celebrates Christmas? Who celebrates Easter? Who has a Sunday Sabbath? I have been in churches where on halloween the kids come and dree up like biblical people as if that made it any better. I do not agree with these things therefore regardless of if I believe in Jesus or not I am not a Christian. Just like the Nation of Islam do not believe in these things but I am not a Muslim, and there are a lot of similarities in Islam and Judaism. Similarities do not mean we are the same. It means we can meet on a common ground.


Mark- you continue to believe what you want. How in the world can I be separating myself from the body of Christ if I said I believe He is God? Come on man...

disc you wrote -As Paul went out to the other people who at the time were gentiles. We too were gentiles until we became Christians. Then we became grafted in as heirs and children of God. So instead of being gentiles now, according to the definition from strong's that you used. We are ex-gentiles instead Christian's children of God. :)

That is the only post I can say makes since to me. instead of being gentiles now we are Christians children of God. That is all I have been saying from the beginning. Ex-gentiles no longer a gentile.

daughter
Jan 16th 2008, 10:35 AM
So, as Paul says, in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, we are all one body. You are part of the body of Christ, as are we...

hupo
Jan 16th 2008, 03:41 PM
I've been following this thread for a while now and decided to join as there is a reference to Jews and the way they see the word "gentile"
I have my own opinion about it but I don't think it counts for much without biblical backing so lets see what the Bible does with the word "Gentiles"

As the OT was written (mostly) in Hebrew, I think we can safely bring the Hebrew version as a close understanding of God's spirit of things.



Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

In Hebrew the words used are Goy and Goyim in talking about the people who will come of Abraham's loins. Namely, the Jewish people

2Sa 7:23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem unto himself for a people, and to make him a name, and to do great things for you, and terrible things for thy land, before thy people, whom thou redeemest to thee out of Egypt, from the nations and their gods?

Here "nation" (Goy) is used to refer to Israel while "nations" (Goyim) is used for the heathen nations of the times

Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evil-doers, children that deal corruptly! they have forsaken Jehovah, they have despised the Holy One of Israel, they are estranged and gone backward.

Here, "nation" is obviously refering to Israel and in Hebrew the word used is again, Goy

Isaiah 2:4, Jer 2:11, 5:15, 31:36, 50:3, Amos 6:14, Micha 4:3 and Zeph 2:5 are more verses that show the word Goy or Goyim used alternately to describe Israel and/or the other nations.

My understanding of all this is that the word Goy has been used in different ways under different circumstances and therefor do not have one single obvious meaning.


As for contemporary use of the word "Gentiles" or Goy", or any other word for that matter. Let us not forget that language is for communication and not for idolworshipping. I have this very debate with Jehovah's Witnesses who insist on Jehovah as the one and only name of God. What we should be worshipping is not any given name of God, but God Himself....His essence, His spirit, His Son, our saviour.

Personally I don't use the word Goy/Gentile if I can avoid it. In fact I don't usually bother asking people if they are Jew/Gentile or a flying pink elephant. It isn't for me to decide what God meant. The spirit will show me if it so thinks plausable.

1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.

So Holy Spirit, I pray YOU join us now in this discussion and don't let us wonder off your True path of Love and Compassion for our neighbors

:pray: :pray: :pray:

mlaw31
Jan 16th 2008, 09:52 PM
Hupo- You are correct in the scriptures you gave and how the word goyim or goy means nations. That is a truth I pointed out at the very beginning of this thread.

My point was gentile should never had been introduced in our bibles to describe someone who knew God. Because gentile means pagan confused and without God.

And where it says gentile in the scriptures if you replace it with the word nations you will see the context came from the OT and what is happening is fulfillment of prophesy.

I believe it is time we start digging into the scriptures and finding out what is really going on. The translators of our bible chose which words to use, but I do not think they always chose the best words. The word of God is continual from beginning to end it all should line up and make sense. There should not be any controversy over the word of God it will speak for itself.

Maybe that is why it says to study to show yourself approved. As the body of Christ we have to seek after the face of God ourselves and let the Spirit minister to us in our time of study and prayer. The times of taking the revelation someone else has and not seeking after your own is coming to a close. It is just not going to cut it anymore.

I heard a Rabbi say living on the revelation of the Rabbis or Pastors and never seeking God for your own is like letting someone feed you food they have already chewed up.

Thanks for your input.

hupo
Jan 17th 2008, 08:35 AM
Before everyone gets upset I am not calling you pagans, I am spirit filled, talk in tongues, and believe in laying on hands ... Do you call yourself a Gentile? If so according to strong's #1471 you are a heathen and according to strong's# 1484 you are a pagan. Gentile means pagan confused and with out God. So why do Christians call themselves gentiles?

With all due respect to STRONG I would rather listen to God's view on this.
Bible uses "Gentile" in Hebrew (Goy) as "nation" - sometimes for heathen and pagen nations, sometimes for nations generally and many times as the nation of Israel itself.
We must take the word in it's context.
When people in this forum define themselves as "gentiles", my understanding is they mean the "non-Jewish nations" - and that is all!

Yes, "Gentile" can be used for "heathens" or "pagens" if you are back in the days where it was used that way.

When I hear the word "Goy" I get goose-bumps as I've heard this word used all too often in the sense that "we are the chosen people and therefor we are better than anyone else". I personally don't like this word at all.

Bottom line is, language is for communication. When someone here says he is a "gentile" do you understand what he/she means or do you really believe they are calling themselves "pagens"?

Blessings :pray: :pray: :pray:

ServantofTruth
Jan 17th 2008, 09:47 AM
What this thread needs is some humour! Circles, round and round. Daughter made an excellent point - we are one body and it seems whether you want to use the title 'christian' or not you are of our/ christ's body. Let's try relaxing, living and joking together in our Lord's name. You seem to be looking to divide over words, titles, ideas put forward - try posting something uniting and loving for once - and my joke to finish, is many reading this/ posting on this topic, may believe i am more like you than them! They may be right!

mlaw31
Jan 17th 2008, 10:05 AM
Hupo- you said: Bottom line is, language is for communication. When someone here says he is a "gentile" do you understand what he/she means or do you really believe they are calling themselves "pagens"?

If they are using it in reference to the scriptures then yes, because like it or not that is what it is saying. A non-Jew was known as a pagan. It might be an ugly truth but it is the truth.

It seems to me I am beating a dead horse. My point still remains the same from day one: The word gentile should never have made its way into our bible because anyone who believes in God is not a pagan. If you and everyone else cannot see the point I am trying to make then you never will.

Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak.

hupo
Jan 17th 2008, 02:21 PM
The word gentile should never have made its way into our bible because anyone who believes in God is not a pagan. If you and everyone else cannot see the point I am trying to make then you never will.

WOW!!! strong words!!

I guess I really don't understand you.

Can we then just agree to disagree and leave it in peace (rather than beat a dead horse)?

Blessings :pray: :pray: :pray:

Tanya~
Jan 17th 2008, 04:03 PM
Since this thread has run its course, we're closing it.