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mlaw31
Jan 14th 2008, 08:21 AM
Hello everyone,
By now I am sure some of you have read some of my post and threads. I would like to take this time to address some questions you might have about me. I am not here to convert you into Judaism, or to force my beliefs on anyone here. Please respect me and reciprocate. I am here to discuss the word of God. I have a passion for God and His word. It is believed that God the Torah and the land are synamonous, if you have a love for one you should have a love for the other. I do not make statements in reference to what I believe to start a debate, but to give you an elucidated understanding of me and my thoughts. For the record: I do believe that Jesus is the messiah, He died for my sins and rose from the dead. I do speak in tongues and could share some stimulating stories with you about how I have seen God manifest. (Power of the Holy Spirit) I do not consider myself to be a Christian because depending on whom you ask being a Christian means so many different things, and I do not agree with them all. I believe although I share some beliefs with Christians we see the word of God in different ways. I consider myself to be a Hebrew Israelite. I study the Torah, I keep the laws of Moses, which I consider to be habits for everyday life, I observe the biblical feast days, and I love my God. I would like to be able to discuss the word of God with you or (midrash) to bounce information off of each other with out having to explain my beliefs or salvation. If you do have questions about what I believe I will answer them for you just post them here, not on the thread. I will only answer questions on the thread that pertain to the topic of discussion. If asked to do otherwise I will simply post please see intro “Shalom”. I will use scripture to justify my comments for I believe that the word of God speaks for it self. This is a place for me to fellowship with those that share the same passion GOD. Thank you and we will talk soon Shalom…

quiet dove
Jan 14th 2008, 02:45 PM
We have already met, but welcome.

You can expect people here to ask you what you believe/interpret/ understand/think, we all ask each other these question in an attempt to gain an understanding of the person we are talking to. Thats just pretty much normal process. You can also expect some threads to rabbit trail a little, any comment made in a thread is apt to get a response which then can cause the rabbit trail.

You should do fine here, I personally will enjoy talking with you, I am very interested in your thoughts on the Bible. Any questions you have about what I believe/interpret/understand/think, I will try to answer.

Enjoy the forum.:)

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 14th 2008, 08:13 PM
Hi there, welcome.
I can understand not wanting to use a term with connotations you don't want to label yourself with, but I'm surprised you recognise your saviour and don't reference Him in what you state as your denomination. That said, I really don't care what you call yourself - if you know Christ, we're brothers regardless. I look forward to hearing your perspectives :)

mlaw31
Jan 15th 2008, 05:38 AM
Thank you both for your warm welcome, quietdove- thanks for elucidating the rabbit trails, you are right it is bound to happen. immensedisciple- God is mentioned in Hebrew Israelite Hebrew means one who has crossed over. It is like saying I worship the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob, which is Jesus.

Phil Fourie
Jan 15th 2008, 05:58 AM
Hi there and welcome to the board

I would like to know, do you study the Bible or just the Tanakh (Jewish Bible aka Old Testament)?

Thanks and welcome again

God bless
Phil

mlaw31
Jan 15th 2008, 06:54 AM
Hey,
I study the complete bible Tanakh and Brit Hadasha (NT) thanks for the welcome Shalom

daughter
Jan 15th 2008, 11:54 AM
Hi Mlaw... what distinctives do you have between your beliefs and those of Christians? If you believe that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Moses and Isaac, and that He is the Messiah promised to Israel, and that He will come again, wouldn't that mean that you are a Christian?

What is it other than these that so distinguishes Christian doctrine to you that you are not prepared to call yourself a Christian, although you follow key Christian beliefs?

Welcome to the forum by the way. I'm studying Hebrew at the moment. If I can pick your brains on anything let me know.

mlaw31
Jan 15th 2008, 08:06 PM
Hello and thank you for asking,
I believe mainly because I used to be a Christian that it is much more than confession and beliefs. It is my opinion, it is a lifestyle. To say I am Christian to me would mean that I do not observe the Torah, because I refuse to go under the law. It would mean that I would celebrate holidays that I now know to have pagan roots. It would mean I believe that Jesus is the son of God (God Jr.) and not God in the flesh. This is where it gets confusing. Most Christians will say they believe Jesus is God in the flesh and they believe in one God, but will say they believe in heaven Jesus (who is God in the flesh) is sitting next to God. To me that says two gods. Not one. Therefore instead of agreeing with the teachings of the Trinity to say God is three separate gods in one, I choose to say Hear O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one. Deut 6:4 In Benin Africa they have a three headed god named Trinity. Our God the God of Abraham the God of Issac and the God of Jacob will not share His glory or His name with any other God. He is not a trinitarian god He is One. In Hebrew Echad(one) To believe in more than one god is polytheism. I am a monotheist.
I also do not believe in keeping a Sunday Sabbath God said the seventh day is the Sabbath, that is Saturday. The Sabbath is a feast day. Feat days are days where we have appointments with God. He tells all his people to meet Him on these days. I believe God is the King and when a King summons you, you come. I would love to share the knowledge of the Hebrew language and culture with you. How ever I am still in the process of learning to speak fluently. So I will help where I can

Ta-An
Jan 15th 2008, 08:16 PM
Mashlomeg??

I see that you have chosen the option :"Not a Christian" yet you do believe that Yeshua is Messiah, and that He died for your sins and rose from the dead.

With that option, you will be restricted to post only in certain areas on the board. Our definition of Christian is explained when you registered, and even tho you might not like this term, it will allow you to post on the whole board... your views seem Christian..... so for all practical reasons you might want to consider that ;)

mlaw31
Jan 15th 2008, 09:58 PM
Trust me I have been made aware of my limitations, but I will not conform to a title in which I do not believe describes me only to have more freedom on this forum. It seems amazing to me that by simply clicking a button it makes me accepted or gives me freedom, regardless of what I believe. Thanks for the advice but I choose to decline :)

quiet dove
Jan 16th 2008, 12:14 AM
Trust me I have been made aware of my limitations, but I will not conform to a title in which I do not believe describes me only to have more freedom on this forum. It seems amazing to me that by simply clicking a button it makes me accepted or gives me freedom, regardless of what I believe. Thanks for the advice but I choose to decline :)



Even clicking that option does not give folks the right to preach whatever they choose, the board still has it's guidelines and rules. :)

daughter
Jan 16th 2008, 01:10 AM
Trust me I have been made aware of my limitations, but I will not conform to a title in which I do not believe describes me only to have more freedom on this forum. It seems amazing to me that by simply clicking a button it makes me accepted or gives me freedom, regardless of what I believe. Thanks for the advice but I choose to decline :)


I would still love to know what you believe.

Personally, I believe that when Jesus said "not one jot or tittle"... He meant it. Many Christians I know don't believe that... I just want you to know what you believe.

mlaw31
Jan 16th 2008, 06:19 AM
I must say I am glad hear you believe that. I believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. I believe He came and died as the ultimate sacrifice as an atonement for our sins. I believe He was raised three days later on the Sabbath, and His Spirit lives within us. I also believe we should still keep His commandments as given in the OT (Torah or Tanakh) I keep all biblical feast days as I believe they are appointments with God commanded by God, I also believe they are practice for things to come, and God will come again. I hope I answered your question if not I am sorry, but I would need you to be specific.

daughter
Jan 16th 2008, 10:33 AM
Hi there... I've just read your reply more thoroughly, and I think I actually agree with you. I believe that you may have misunderstood the nature of the Trinity, but then, so may I... This is a tricky area, and I don't think believers should argue over something that possibly none of us understand correctly.

I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, that He "tabernacled" amongst us. The word used by John, commonly translated "dwelt" refers obviously to the Tabernacle... I believe that Jesus was the Temple of God, made by God, for Him to dwell in. If God will dwell in something made by human hands, how much more appropriate that He should reside in a body that He has specially created and sanctified as holy? And Jesus did say that the most important command was Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." So I also say the Shema. And I love Sabbath, because it is a time to spend with God. I also love Sunday, because that is when He rose. (First day of the week.)

Ta-An
Jan 16th 2008, 03:10 PM
Trust me I have been made aware of my limitations, but I will not conform to a title in which I do not believe describes me only to have more freedom on this forum. It seems amazing to me that by simply clicking a button it makes me accepted or gives me freedom, regardless of what I believe. Thanks for the advice but I choose to decline :)

We have many Messianich believers on this MB.... ;)

Did you know.... Judaism is younger than Christianity :idea:

mlaw31
Jan 16th 2008, 08:31 PM
We have many Messianich believers on this MB.... ;)

I never said I was Messianich.

Did you know.... Judaism is younger than Christianity :idea:

For the record I do not practice Judaism either. Judaism includes the study of the Talmud and the Kabalah which I do not study. It is just Judaism is the first thing that pops into most peoples minds when you say you study the Torah and keep the Laws of Moses.

I also love Sunday, because that is when He rose. (First day of the week.)

First let me say you can worship God any day of the week, but Saturday is a commanded day. I am not against Sunday worship it is just not the Sabbath.

Matt.28:1
1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

They arrived after the Sabbath the reason it was after the Sabbath was because day had started to dawn, at this point Jesus was already gone. He had risen before they got there. They did not get there until the first day (Sunday) began to dawn, so early Sunday morning, and Jesus was already risen and gone. Which means had to rise and leave on the Sabbath.

The day after the Sabbath He was taken up into Heaven which made Him First Fruits on Sunday So, correct He did rise to Heaven on Sunday, but He rose from the grave on the Sabbath.

daughter
Jan 17th 2008, 11:57 AM
Hum. Interesting idea about Him rising on the Sabbath... actually, yes, technically it must have been. I'd always assumed that He rested on the seventh day, and that this explained why He lay in the grave that day... but I'll have to reassess that assumption.

I agree with you about a lot of things... although I visited my father for Christmas I don't celebrate it - he went to church, I didn't. Personally I loathe the pagan connotations of Christmas, hence we don't decorate for it. But I think we could all pay attention to Roman's 14 on many issues.

Ta-An
Jan 17th 2008, 12:59 PM
:hmm:
Well, you are not a Christian, neither Messianic nor are you practicing Judaism.... then what are you??

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 06:52 AM
I thought I included it in my intro, I guess I need to correct this over sight. Thank you for bringing to my attention, but I am a Hebrew Israelite.

Ta-An
Jan 18th 2008, 07:03 AM
I thought I included it in my intro, I guess I need to correct this over sight. Thank you for bringing to my attention, but I am a Hebrew Israelite.Post 1 you say
...I am not here to convert you into Judaism... which to me is saying that , that is your 'belief'... even tho you say that you believe that Yeshua is Messiah, although you say :
I never said I was Messianich. and you say that you are not Christian either.... :hmm:

Ta-An
Jan 18th 2008, 07:04 AM
I am a Hebrew Israelite. Do you speak Hebrew?? :hmm:

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 07:07 AM
Daughter- a lot of my family still celebrate those holidays as well. It is easier for me because I am here in Denver and they are back home in Cincinnati.
Even Though I do not celebrate them I get the phone calls still and I say Merry Christmas back. I understand everyone is not ready to let go of
traditions they hold so dear , even if they have been assimilated with pagan traditions. The idea behind these present day holidays are good, but they are still assimilated. To me it is like bringing a strange fire to the alter of God.

Leviticus 10The Profane Fire of Nadab and Abihu1 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2 So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. 3 And Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD spoke, saying:

‘By those who come near Me
I must be regarded as holy;
And before all the people
I must be glorified.’” So Aaron held his peace.


When I first read this next scripture I could not believe, I said WOW! There it is in plain black and white

Jeremiah 16:19 (English Standard Version)


19 O LORD, my strength and my stronghold,
my refuge in the day of trouble,
to you shall the nations come
from the ends of the earth and say:
"Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies,
worthless things in which there is no profit.

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 07:12 AM
When most people hear you say Torah, or Laws of Moses they think Judaism, if I was speaking about things that people categorized with any other belief I would have said the same think. Basically what I was trying to do was remove the fear or concern.

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 07:15 AM
I am currently learning to speak Hebrew. Hebrew Israelite has noting to do with language. Hebrew means one who has crossed over like Abraham, who was the first Hebrew.

Ta-An
Jan 18th 2008, 07:20 AM
And your meaning of Israelite? :hmm:

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 07:39 AM
One who belongs to the tribe of Israel.

Eph 2:11-14 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.Rom 11:17 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree

Ta-An
Jan 18th 2008, 07:46 AM
Thus you are also a wild olive branch grafted in?? :hmm:

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 08:01 AM
that would be correct

Ta-An
Jan 18th 2008, 08:32 AM
...and that makes you not a Christian... ?? :hmm:


Did you know that if a wild olive is grafted into a cultured olive tree, it no longer bears wild olives... we are grafted into the Tree itself. We are grafted into G_d,,,, Yeshua is L_rd!! He is G_d :ppHe is our Salvation....

The term "G_D" is not a person.... but like I explained to my class, it is like a Surname..... it means people of the same thought.... what I say by that is : The Father will not do anything that the Son and the Spirit will not agree with, and the same for the Son and the Spirit... the same in action, in will, in power... They are ONE .... it is like they operate with the same brain, so as to say.... yet the Son is different to the Father and the Spirit.... they are all the same yet different

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 09:03 AM
No it does not make me a Christian, but a Hebrew one who has crossed over. The word Christian is not a biblical title given to God's children, by God or anyone in authority.

The word Christian was given by the people in Antioch, it is like me seeing someone and randomly making a name up to call them. It holds no power it is not a name given by God to designate citizen rights.

quote: Did you know that if a wild olive is grafted into a cultured olive tree, it no longer bears wild olives... we are grafted into the Tree itself. We are grafted into G_d,,,, Yeshua is L_rd!! He is G_d :ppHe is our Salvation....

Did you know that in order for a wild branch to permanently become apart of the tree it must accept the sap. You see the tree is Israel not Jesus. In order for any tree to survive it has to have roots which is Jesus, and the sap to survive is the Torah.

Unless you take the sap you will not become part of the tree. If a wild branch takes the sap from the tree when the vinedresser goes back after a three year period to see if the branch flourished, he will not be abl eto tell the difference from the wild branch and the original.

We are grafted into Israel. We must take the sap inorder to live. Does this has anything to do with salvation? Not at all. Even if you do not take the sap you are still saved.

vs18 says remember you do not support the root but the root supports you. Who is your support? Jesus!

vs17 ...partakers of the root and the fatness of the tree. Once again root=Jesus and the fatness of the tree the Torah, aka the common wealth of Israel.

quote:They are ONE .... it is like they operate with the same brain, so as to say.... yet the Son is different to the Father and the Spirit.... they are all the same yet different

To say it is like they operate with the same brain is to imply they have three separate minds. How can something be the same but yet different?
ie) Lets say you have a son. Your son is a son to his father, a grandson to his grandfather, and a father to his son. Is your son operating with one brain or is it like all three different beings have one brain together? Regardless of the different roles he may have he is still the same. Not different. His role may vary but he is yet the same.

daughter
Jan 18th 2008, 09:55 AM
You see the tree is Israel not Jesus.

I disagree with that. Every good thing comes from Jesus. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... the Word was made flesh and tabernacled amongst us.

If the very beginning was Jesus, if every sacrifice in the Torah, every intricacy of Temple and Tabernacle prefigure Him, and His sacrifice, then how can He not be the source of Israel, the very root of the vine on which we are grafted? He even says, "I am the vine, you are the branches."

Jesus IS Israel.

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 11:00 AM
You are not understanding what I am saying.
Picture a tree the tree itself has branches, and every tree needs a source to feed the tree itself and the branches. This source in every tree, every plant every weed is the roots. If you kill the roots you kill the tree.

Before you have a sprout that grows into a tree you have the roots.

Jesus is the roots without Jesus as the supplier for the tree Israel and the branches us we will not make it. vs.18 you do not support the root the root supports you. Who is your supporter?

We are grafted into Israel how else can we be part of it, unless we get grafted in? All the branches Judah and Ephraim (nations) part of the same tree Israel with the the same source Yeshua (Jesus)

The scripture ypu are referencing to in John I am the vine dresser, has nothing to do with the grafting in process. You have to remember Jesus was talking to people (sometimes) in the way all could understand. They were farmers, they understood agriculture. In John Jesus is talking about relying on Him becoming one with Him

In Romans Paul is talking about How a people who were not a people are able to inherit the common wealth, and become citizens of the kingdom.

Ta-An
Jan 18th 2008, 11:28 AM
No it does not make me a Christian, but a Hebrew one who has crossed over. The word Christian is not a biblical title given to God's children, by God or anyone in authority. Acts 11:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


The word Christian was given by the people in Antioch, it is like me seeing someone and randomly making a name up to call them. It holds no power it is not a name given by God to designate citizen rights. This is wrtten in the Bible, and this is what I believe :)


Did you know that in order for a wild branch to permanently become apart of the tree it must accept the sap. You see the tree is Israel not Jesus. In order for any tree to survive it has to have roots which is Jesus, and the sap to survive is the Torah. We are not grafted into Israel, we are grafted into Jesus


Unless you take the sap you will not become part of the tree. If a wild branch takes the sap from the tree when the vinedresser goes back after a three year period to see if the branch flourished, he will not be abl eto tell the difference from the wild branch and the original.

We are grafted into Israel. We must take the sap inorder to live. Does this has anything to do with salvation? Not at all. Even if you do not take the sap you are still saved. we are not grafted into Israel,




To say it is like they operate with the same brain is to imply they have three separate minds. No, this is not the same... surely your soul and your mind is the same??


How can something be the same but yet different? How can water be ice and vapour is what you ask me.... or how can the yoke and white and shell of an egg be different yet the same ;)

Ta-An
Jan 18th 2008, 11:34 AM
see this : Jas 1:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Christ alone is Savior :)

Ta-An
Jan 18th 2008, 11:37 AM
Rom 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=82&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) You will say then, "Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in."

The cut down branches are Israel...... :idea:

daughter
Jan 18th 2008, 04:14 PM
No they're not! Israel is not cut off either.

Ta-An
Jan 18th 2008, 06:39 PM
No they're not! Israel is not cut off either.Not all the branches are cut off, some are, some are not...

daughter
Jan 18th 2008, 07:16 PM
Ah, I see... Well, the branches that were cut off were not truly Israel, otherwise they would have flourished and grown strong. That's my understanding anyway. Remember, Paul says, "all Israel shall be saved". So Israel can't be cut off.

Interestingly, a meaning of "Israel" is "struggles with God." Don't we all struggle with God? That would make us all Israel, because through our struggles we come closer to Him, as He draws us.

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 07:50 PM
Yes you see the branches that were cut off were the House of Judah or the Jews. The branches Grafted in were the nations or the House of Israel, aka House of Jacob, aka House of Ephraim.

All of Israel will be Judah and Ephraim it is the prophesy of the dry bones found in ezek37

daughter
Jan 18th 2008, 08:10 PM
OKAY... I think I've finally started to understand where you're coming from! :idea: Phew! Sorry for being obtuse... I believe that there are those from the house of Judah who will be grafted back on by the way, but now I think a penny has dropped somewhere in the back of my head. I'll ponder a bit on that, but it makes more sense than what I mistakenly thought you were saying...

Thanks for bearing with us.

Clifton
Jan 18th 2008, 08:24 PM
Hello everyone,
By now I am sure some of you have read some of my post and threads. I would like to take this time to address some questions you might have about me. I am not here to convert you into Judaism, or to force my beliefs on anyone here. Please respect me and reciprocate. I am here to discuss the word of God. I have a passion for God and His word. It is believed that God the Torah and the land are synamonous, if you have a love for one you should have a love for the other. I do not make statements in reference to what I believe to start a debate, but to give you an elucidated understanding of me and my thoughts. For the record: I do believe that Jesus is the messiah, He died for my sins and rose from the dead. I do speak in tongues and could share some stimulating stories with you about how I have seen God manifest. (Power of the Holy Spirit) I do not consider myself to be a Christian because depending on whom you ask being a Christian means so many different things, and I do not agree with them all. I believe although I share some beliefs with Christians we see the word of God in different ways. I consider myself to be a Hebrew Israelite. I study the Torah, I keep the laws of Moses, which I consider to be habits for everyday life, I observe the biblical feast days, and I love my God. I would like to be able to discuss the word of God with you or (midrash) to bounce information off of each other with out having to explain my beliefs or salvation. If you do have questions about what I believe I will answer them for you just post them here, not on the thread. I will only answer questions on the thread that pertain to the topic of discussion. If asked to do otherwise I will simply post please see intro “Shalom”. I will use scripture to justify my comments for I believe that the word of God speaks for it self. This is a place for me to fellowship with those that share the same passion GOD. Thank you and we will talk soon Shalom…


Welcome mlaw31!

I am a bit rusty on my Ivreet (Hebrew). Can you tell me if the 10 Commandments are part of the 613 commandments of Moses, or, is it 613+10 = 623.

I know there were the 613 commandments, but I cannot seem to remember if the 10 was a part of the 613, or different. I do know that much of the 600+ commands were based on the 10.

Thanks in advance.

Clifton
Jan 18th 2008, 08:25 PM
Acts 11:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
This is wrtten in the Bible, and this is what I believe :)
...


There is also Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16, which the English word "Christian" is used.;)

watchinginawe
Jan 18th 2008, 08:49 PM
Matt.28:1
1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

They arrived after the Sabbath the reason it was after the Sabbath was because day had started to dawn, at this point Jesus was already gone. He had risen before they got there. They did not get there until the first day (Sunday) began to dawn, so early Sunday morning, and Jesus was already risen and gone. Which means had to rise and leave on the Sabbath.:hmm: Not sure why this discussion is in introductions.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
...
11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,

13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.

14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.

15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

The above discourse and contrived lie of the elders is based on the knowledge that Jesus was still secure in the tomb even after the end of the sabbath at dusk the previous day. It is suggested that during the night of the first day of the week Jesus' body was stolen away, apparently giving the disciples the benefit of the doubt that even they wouldn't do such a thing on the sabbath.

Additionally, the issue is resolved conclusively by the Gospel of Mark. Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. So it seems open and shut that Jesus rose early the first day of the week.

But even with such clear scripture, some insist that Jesus rose on the sabbath. From what I have experienced, this sabbath resurrection doctrine denies the existence of "the Lord's day" as being Sunday. Thus the whole world believes a lie that Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday. Now that sets up a "truth" that only a select few recognize. Something "the world" denies and is deceived about. Generally these doctrines rely on a 72 hour period of time that Jesus was in the tomb.

Reckoning Jesus to be in the grave exactly 72 hours will meet with several scriptural problems IMO. The whole reckoning of how long Jesus was in the tomb is complicated because of the undeniable scriptural fact that Jesus died on the day of preparation, or the day before the sabbath. Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, So no matter how one reckons the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus we know that we have definite bookends in just before the sabbath on the day of preparation and the dawn of day the first day of the week.

The most popular reckoning of "three days" being a full three days (but not especially 72 hours, but rather three days and nights) holds that there were two consecutive sabbath days and that Jesus was laid in the tomb late on a Thursday afternoon. You can't make 72 hours with this reckoning and still have Jesus having been risen early the morning of the first day of the week (72 hours wouldn't be until late in the afternoon of the first day of the week, Sunday).

The most odd one IMO (which I believe you subscribe to mlaw) holds that Thursday was the Holy Day and was observed as a sabbath which puts Jesus in the tomb Wednesday late in the afternoon. That would mean that exactly 72 hours later, late in the afternoon on Saturday (the sabbath), Jesus rose again from the dead. 72 hours. The obvious problems with this account are that the scriptures say that Jesus rose on the first day of the week (Sunday), the soldiers (which I bring up above), and the women waiting for the sabbath to pass before annointing the body of Jesus. IMO, scripture has to be almost completely ignored to trust in this reckoning.

If Thursday and Saturday were sabbath days, then the first opportunity for the women to annoint the body of Jesus would have been Friday. This clearly contradicts scripture as the women approached the tomb with the spices the first day of the week. Some reckon it (which I suspect you do) that Jesus was buried, then we had the Holy Day observed as a sabbath (Thurday) where the women rested, then the women prepared spices on the day of preparation (Friday) for the Saturday sabbath, and then rested the sabbath (Saturday), and then approached the tomb on Sunday. But the Gospel of Luke gives a clear presentation of the events and days:

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:

51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them; ) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.

52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
...
Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

The women prepared the spices, rested the sabbath day, and then came to the tomb to annoint the body of Jesus. To come up with a 72 hour burial one would have to insert two days in the obvious timeline of the above.

We have either:

Friday death and burial and Jesus in the tomb on day of preparation, Saturday in the tomb, Sunday Jesus risen from the dead. "On the third day"

or

Thursday death and burial and Jesus in the tomb on day of preparation, Friday sabbath, Saturday sabbath, Sunday Jesus risen from the dead. "After three days" "As Jonah three days and three nights in the belly of the whale"

or

Wednesday death and burial and Jesus in the tomb on day of preparation, Thursday sabbath, Friday day of preparation, Saturday sabbath and Jesus rising from the dead late Saturday afternoon.

I hope you will study the scriptures and see if they teach clearly what day Jesus rose from the dead. I believe any honest scriptural study will conclude that Jesus rose from the dead early on the morning of the first day of the week: Sunday. If that is contrary to what you have been taught, then I hope you will side with the scriptures.

God Bless!

daughter
Jan 18th 2008, 09:33 PM
There is also Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16, which the English word "Christian" is used.;)
Ahaha! Yes, you're right. Peter uses the term Christian - it's the same in the Greek.
Χριστιανός Christianos

Thank you!

If the earliest believers in Christ, including an apostle, were happy with the term, I think we can be too.

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 11:51 PM
1 peter 4:12-16
12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%204:12-16;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30455a)] On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%204:12-16;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30457b)]

Peter is only referring to the people as Christains in the sense that they were referred to at antioch. Let me explain"

Christian was a name given by the Antiochans who had no authority to name the children of God. You can only name what is yours, or what you rule over. It has been this way since the garden of Eden. God aonly named a handful of things, then said Adam you have dominion here over all that you see what ever you CALL it it shall be. Adam had authority to name things.

What ever you name you are responsible for, your children your pets etc...

The people at antioch had no authority to stand on by calling them Christians. Why are not the children of God continued to be called Christians through out scripture? Why is such a great name only listed 3 times on the entire bible?

Because it is not a name given by God, to call HIS people.


If there is a group of people who has been referred to as slaves, and they are not slaves, but these people call them this name, It is uplifting to say Yet if anyone suffers as a slave, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

Just because someone labels you with a name does not mean that you are what they labeled you. Peter is saying hey do not let them get to you they call us Christians so what, it cannot bring us down, do not be ashamed but glorify God.

If it was a great name and honor to be called a Christian why would he tell them not to be ashamed?

What people miss in this passage is that the disciples who were Jews, who studied Torah and knew Jesus were called Christians. Christians today do not do the same things the "Christians" at that time did.

mlaw31
Jan 18th 2008, 11:55 PM
I have to go to work I am really enjoying midrashing (discussing scripture and God) with all of you. I will post an answer to questions I did not address tonight. Until then Shabbat Shalom!

diffangle
Jan 19th 2008, 12:28 AM
I have to go to work I am really enjoying midrashing (discussing scripture and God) with all of you. I will post an answer to questions I did not address tonight. Until then Shabbat Shalom!
Just curious ... you're going to work on the Sabbath? :confused

Shabbat Shalom :)

daughter
Jan 19th 2008, 12:35 AM
It's lawful to do good on the Sabbath... what is your job mlaw? Next Sabbath I'm going to try and give out free food to three thousand people! :o What was I thinking! :lol:

quiet dove
Jan 19th 2008, 12:57 AM
Since this is a growing and continuing conversation, I moved it over here. :)

Clifton
Jan 19th 2008, 12:57 AM
I have to go to work I am really enjoying midrashing (discussing scripture and God) with all of you. I will post an answer to questions I did not address tonight. Until then Shabbat Shalom!


Lalah tov ;)

(Good Night)

mlaw31
Jan 19th 2008, 09:16 AM
watchinginawe-
Matt 28:11-15 is a bribe, it cannot be quoted other wise. The scripture clearly states they were bribing them to lie, because He had risen. They thought they were going to able to prove Jesus was a liar, and a fake. They were surprised that He had risen so they paid people to lie. They went through a lot of trouble to make sure He stayed in the grave.

Matt 27:63-66
saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night[a] and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.

They rolled a stone in front of the grave sealed it, and had a guard posted there. They were still there when Mary came on Sunday morning,

Matt 28:4
And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.


As far as the whole 72hr ordeal, in biblical days a day was sundown to sundown, and it still recognized as so. That is why we have a meal on Friday night to bring in the Sabbath.

Quote: Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils

You might not want to hear this but… Mark 16 is not part of the original text. It is greatly disputed, because of its inconsistency with the rest of the scriptures. If you do not believe do your homework check it out. It is actually mentioned in some of the study bibles, it talks about it in my New King James Version.

That is the problem without understanding that a version is just that a version, which means there is an original.

Quote: I hope you will study the scriptures and see if they teach clearly what day Jesus rose from the dead. I believe any honest scriptural study will conclude that Jesus rose from the dead early on the morning of the first day of the week: Sunday. If that is contrary to what you have been taught, then I hope you will side with the scriptures.


The problem here is, you know nothing about me. You assume because I do not believe Jesus rose from the grave on Sunday, that someone had to teach or tell me this. You also make mention to me to study the scriptures, just to elucidate these statements you made…

… It was through my study of the word that I came to the conclusion I did, Jesus rose from the grave on the Sabbath, and so there is not another mistake like this made again, I grew up in a Baptist church. I was able to witness the Pentecostal church through my grandmother. I studied as an adult in the Christian church before I arrived where I am today.

Just because you have a different revelation of the scriptures, and there are many, gives you no right to assume one has not done a proper study, of the topic.

Revelation comes from God, and it is progressive. You cannot read the word of God and expect the same revelation every single time. That is why you can read a scripture everyday and get a different revelation, and most of the time they build upon each other (progressive).

If you want to discuss scripture fine let us do that, but lets not throw stones.

mlaw31
Jan 19th 2008, 09:24 AM
daughter- I am currently a server a restaurant called Bonefish Grill. I am a 32 year college student getting my undergrad in medicine. I plan to go to medical school to be a radiologist. My goal is to go to Sackler University in Tel Aviv Israel. Until then yes I do have to work on the Sabbath, it is a good thing that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. One day I will a wife and children, and a lucrative career to provide for them, and I will not have to work on the Sabbath.

I do go to service Saturday mornings, and I have an Erev Shabbat meal before I go into work to bring in the Sabbath. It is a change for me because at my last job I had my nights and week ends off, but this new job works better with my school schedule.

Have fun next week, and may God bless you with peace, patience, and StarBucks.:)

mlaw31
Jan 19th 2008, 09:30 AM
As much as I would love to continue on this thread I have to go t bed it is 3:30am here and I have to be up no later than 8am. Good nite everyone.

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 19th 2008, 02:36 PM
Just because someone labels you with a name does not mean that you are what they labeled you. Peter is saying hey do not let them get to you they call us Christians so what, it cannot bring us down, do not be ashamed but glorify God.

If it was a great name and honor to be called a Christian why would he tell them not to be ashamed?

What people miss in this passage is that the disciples who were Jews, who studied Torah and knew Jesus were called Christians. Christians today do not do the same things the "Christians" at that time did.
When they were called Christians it was intend as an insult, right? So he told them not to be ashamed because although those who spoke it to them might consider aligning yourself with Christ worthy of mockery, they knew better - as do we.

watchinginawe
Jan 19th 2008, 04:09 PM
watchinginawe-
Matt 28:11-15 is a bribe, it cannot be quoted other wise. The scripture clearly states they were bribing them to lie, because He had risen. They thought they were going to able to prove Jesus was a liar, and a fake. They were surprised that He had risen so they paid people to lie. They went through a lot of trouble to make sure He stayed in the grave.

Matt 27:63-66
saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night[a] and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.

They rolled a stone in front of the grave sealed it, and had a guard posted there. They were still there when Mary came on Sunday morning,

Matt 28:4
And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.Exactly. And there was an earthquake and the appearance of an angel(s).

You quoted a scripture and said that since Jesus wasn't in the tomb Sunday morning then He had to rise on the sabbath. :confused Here is what you said:
They arrived after the Sabbath the reason it was after the Sabbath was because day had started to dawn, at this point Jesus was already gone. He had risen before they got there. They did not get there until the first day (Sunday) began to dawn, so early Sunday morning, and Jesus was already risen and gone. Which means had to rise and leave on the Sabbath.Using that logic, we can say Jesus arose at anytime after the stone was rolled in front of the tomb. Also, 12 hours had passed from the end of the sabbath and Sunday morning when the tomb was empty. He could have risen sometime in there as well. How does logic suggest that Jesus must have risen on the sabbath?

I have had some suggest that the women approached the tomb just after the sabbath in the evening (I can only suspect this is what you meant for your statment to be logical). But this is clearly refuted by scripture: Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. So, from the setting of the sun to the rising of the sun still would have given Jesus 12 hours or so to rise after the sabbath but before the morning.
As far as the whole 72hr ordeal, in biblical days a day was sundown to sundown, and it still recognized as so. That is why we have a meal on Friday night to bring in the Sabbath.Exactly, "and the evening and the morning were the first day". In all of my reckonings, I have used this assumption. It is what gives the 12 hours that I reference above which occurs between the end of the sabbath and the morning of the first day of the week (Sunday).
Quote: Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils

You might not want to hear this but… Mark 16 is not part of the original text. It is greatly disputed, because of its inconsistency with the rest of the scriptures. If you do not believe do your homework check it out. It is actually mentioned in some of the study bibles, it talks about it in my New King James Version. I am aware of the controversy. But you came here saying that you didn't make statements without scripture. I am doing the same thing. We either hold the scriptures reverently or not.

And we can go on and on that we only get our beliefs from our study of the scriptures and revelation and we aren't taught them but here you are reading the NKJV and offer something you were just "taught" and didn't get by revelation of studying the scriptures. We are influenced by many things in our studies. Even worse, you are asking me to not trust the scriptures but to do some homework in order to reject the scriptures which state something so plainly. That seems to go against everything you have offered so far mlaw31.
The problem here is, you know nothing about me. You assume because I do not believe Jesus rose from the grave on Sunday, that someone had to teach or tell me this. You also make mention to me to study the scriptures, just to elucidate these statements you made…

… It was through my study of the word that I came to the conclusion I did, Jesus rose from the grave on the Sabbath, and so there is not another mistake like this made again,See the above. You have already been taught enough to reject Mark 16:9 as scripture to validate your belief. Also, we probably know a lot more about each other than meets the eye. You have shared a lot with us here and us with you. So we know at least something of your beliefs.
I grew up in a Baptist church. I was able to witness the Pentecostal church through my grandmother. I studied as an adult in the Christian church before I arrived where I am today.

Just because you have a different revelation of the scriptures, and there are many, gives you no right to assume one has not done a proper study, of the topic.

Revelation comes from God, and it is progressive. You cannot read the word of God and expect the same revelation every single time. That is why you can read a scripture everyday and get a different revelation, and most of the time they build upon each other (progressive).That is the problem with the sabbath resurrection doctrine in my opinion. It must be "revealed" because it is not plain in scripture. The doctrine rests on the 72 hour reckoning thus determining the time of resurrection from math and not the scriptures and then everything else is made to fit.
If you want to discuss scripture fine let us do that, but lets not throw stones.I think I have been discussing the scriptures mlaw31. As for stones, I think it was you who said:
As far as carrying out the punishment of the Torah we do! How do we stone our brothers today? With our words, are words and our judgment against our brothers today is just as bad as the physical punishment of the Torah.I'm not intending to throw stones mlaw31. You have come here asking us to read the scriptures and observe the scriptures and that we have missed something in the scriptures and that there is something wrong with calling one's self a Christian or a gentile, etc. I am suggesting the opposite and it upsets you. I don't understand that really. :dunno:

God Bless!

Clifton
Jan 19th 2008, 10:17 PM
I see that Mark 16:9 states:
Now having arisen early on the first [day] of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons. (EMTV) {EDIT: "day" is supplied by the translator(s).}

Back then, and perhaps still yet in accordance to the Hebrew Calendar, the "first of the week" began on what we now call "the start of the evening on Saturday", (6:00 P.M.). So when one sees the word "dawn" used, that is like, say, between 11:30 A.M. and 11:59 A.M. is the "dawn of noon". Of course, at certain seasons, there was still daylight at the beginning of the "first day of the week"

Now, we look back in the previous verses, 16:1-2 (Emphasis Mine):
(LIT) And the sabbath passing, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome, bought spices, so that coming they might anoint Him.
And very early on the first of the week (sic: the fourth watch of the night, from 3 o’clock in the morning until 6 o’clock approximately), the sun having risen, they came upon the tomb.

By this time the stone had done been moved.

As for the authenticity of Mark 16:9-20, I note some Bibles bracket the text, or reduce it to the Appendix, if they include somewhere in the work. I was involved in textual criticism in the last century....

Another ending for Mark is found in L, Psi, 099, 0112, and minuscules 274[mg] 579, k, Syr[h] and more is as follows:

"But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that had been told. And after this Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation."

The Critical Text (UBS, NA, and perhaps WH) give the following:

"Then they promptly reported all these [things] having been instructed to Peter and the [ones] with [him]. Then also Jesus Himself sent out through them from [the] rising [of the sun] [fig., from the east] and as far as [the] west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of the eternal salvation. Amen."

At least the Critical Text version here provides the usually "sign-off" of "Amen".

Where else "Amen" is lacking in the NT is the book of James, which makes scholars and the such, believe that the original had more. Then there is Acts, which in the Bible has none, but a Chapter 29 has surfaced, and it does end with the "Amen" signature. It may have been sometime in the past excluded due to v.13, "And it came to pass that certain of the Druids came unto Paul privately, ...", and perhaps even other verses.

Well, my 2 cents worth - time for supper;)

mlaw31
Jan 19th 2008, 10:25 PM
wathinginawe:
Quote: See the above. You have already been taught enough to reject Mark 16:9 as scripture to validate your belief. Also, we probably know a lot more about each other than meets the eye. You have shared a lot with us here and us with you. So we know at least something of your beliefs.

Once again you assumed it something I have been taught, and studied.

Quote: Even worse, you are asking me to not trust the scriptures but to do some homework in order to reject the scriptures which state something so plainly. That seems to go against everything you have offered so far mlaw31.

I am not asking you not to trust the scriptures, what I am saying is in my NKJV in regards to Mark ch16 it says in the study notes it is not part of the original text. Maybe your bible does not say that but mine does. I have yet to read it anywhere else about any other passage except for this one. So yes seeing how the editors, of the same bible I study from thought it to be valuable enough to insert, I thought it deserves some looking into.

Quote: That is the problem with the sabbath resurrection doctrine in my opinion. It must be "revealed" because it is not plain in scripture.

Jesus spoke in parables which were not plain. It is written in 2Peter 3:15-17 that Paul’s writing’s are hard to understand. That does not sound like it is easy to cmprehend, it sounds like to me it has to be studied or revealed.

If there is a problem with the Sabbath having to revealed, does that mean there is a problem with Jesus as well? Paul was killing God’s people until Jesus revealed his self to him. God had to reveal himself to me to stop me from doing the things I was.

According to you there is a problem with things being revealed because it not plain in scripture. We have things revealed to us by the Spirit of God, Pastors preach and teach, a message based on what has been revealed to them. We have another word for it called revelation, but what does it mean? According to Yourdictionary.com revelation is a noun that means revealed.

Quote: I'm not intending to throw stones mlaw31. You have come here asking us to read the scriptures and observe the scriptures and that we have missed something in the scriptures and that there is something wrong with calling one's self a Christian or a gentile, etc. I am suggesting the opposite and it upsets you. I don't understand that really.

Those might not have been your intentions but you did. You make comments trying to mask them as uplifting, but indeed they are very cynical in nature.

I never once said there is something wrong with you or anyone else calling themselves a Christian, you are what you are. What you have done is twisted my words. What I did say is I am not a Christian, and gave my reasoning behind it, and if you do not see anything with being called a pagan then so be it; continue to refer to yourself as a Gentile. If you do not refer to yourself as a Gentile then good for you.

When I read the word of God I am able to put myself in the scripture and say hey that is me. When I read the word Gentile I do not do that, because I know how it is being used. People argue the fact that it means people other than Jews. That would be correct, as I have stated before. The problem with that is in those days if you were not a Jew you were known as a Gentile, and only the Jews served the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, any one else was a Gentile, pagan confused and without God. You cannot be a Gentile and serve the God we do. The definition is with out God.

I cannot see anyone who serves our God agreeing to be a Gentile. Maybe we once were, but not anymore. I have a God His name is YHVH.

It does not upset me as you suggested that you do not agree with me. What upset me is you make assumptions with no validity, and you continue to twist my words. We can have a conversation, but I will not sit back stagnantly as you misconstrue my thoughts.

If you are going to quote me, keep it in the context as I have written, do not post a quote then reinterpret the meaning. Which you completely understand though might not agree with. How can you quote me about throwing stones, being our words today, then in the same passage say you are not intending to do, unless you understood?

mlaw31
Jan 19th 2008, 10:53 PM
immense: Quote:When they were called Christians it was intend as an insult, right? So he told them not to be ashamed because although those who spoke it to them might consider aligning yourself with Christ worthy of mockery, they knew better - as do we.

I am not suggesting that you should take being a Christian as mockery. As I explained else where on this site. I am a black man. During the times of slavery someone thought we should be called -igger. I am sure that the slaves did not like that name. To them it meant black person. I am sure they did not have the understanding of it being any ignorant person. Then when it was used it meant as an insult to black people. They were known as -iggers.

Much like the disciples the slaves did not let that bring them down, they kept their head up, with hopes and dreams of being free once again. Today if a white man calls a black man a -igga it is still an insult. Why because of the meaning of the word (Not ignorant), but today in the black community the word does not have the same negative undertone. In the black community among mostly young black men and women it is a word of brotherhood or endearment.

The word Christian is the same way. It is a word placed on a people to mock them for who they were, but now is a word of brotherhood to describe those with the same faith.

I have no problem with you or anyone else being or calling yourselves Christians. You all belong to the same social group. Which means you have the same beliefs and do the same things. I however do not belong to that group. Why it seems everyone is trying to convince me otherwise I don not know.

I have my opinion about the situation. It seems that because I do have similarities in what we believe, those similarities alone makes me a Christian, but I disagree. Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus died and rose. They believe he is the Son of God, but they are not Christians. So why do I have to be.

I know it is uncommon for groups of people with opposing view points to coexhist but it can happen. I can be me and you can be you. I am not trying to convince anyone to be me, for I understand, remember I once was you.

mlaw31
Jan 19th 2008, 10:57 PM
clifton- you are a pleasant person to midrash with, thank you for your input. Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai.

Clifton
Jan 19th 2008, 11:12 PM
wathinginawe:
Quote: See the above. You have already been taught enough to reject Mark 16:9 as scripture to validate your belief. Also, we probably know a lot more about each other than meets the eye. You have shared a lot with us here and us with you. So we know at least something of your beliefs.


Well I would not assume that a person has been "taught" 'enough to reject Mark 16:9-20' - there is varying debate among scholars, translators, etc. about that section. It is a matter of what version of the Bible one is using - TR Based, CT Based, BM Based, or MT based. For the record, BM (Byzantine-Majority Greek New Testament) DOES include the disputed passage. ;)

Of course, there is the Oxyrhyncus Papryi - not sure what that may provide in relation to Mark, yet.

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 19th 2008, 11:25 PM
You all belong to the same social group. Which means you have the same beliefs and do the same things.
It's not a social group, I largely disagree with most of my fellow Christians on the board, and I do not do the same things with my time as they do. We all have the same saviour - that is, in it's entirity, what it means to be a Christian.

I however do not belong to that group.But He's your saviour too...?

Why it seems everyone is trying to convince me otherwise I do not know.Good point... I guess, if only because there's enough pointless denominations as it is. We really don't need another, when it is absolutely, exclusively Christ that matters.

Then again, you don't even see yourself as a denomination :D To not even see yourself as a kind of Christian, whatever you ultimately want to call yourself, seems to go against the fact of your life with Christ.

watchinginawe
Jan 19th 2008, 11:28 PM
I am not asking you not to trust the scriptures, what I am saying is in my NKJV in regards to Mark ch16 it says in the study notes it is not part of the original text. Maybe your bible does not say that but mine does. I have yet to read it anywhere else about any other passage except for this one. So yes seeing how the editors, of the same bible I study from thought it to be valuable enough to insert, I thought it deserves some looking into.As I offered, I am well aware of the controversy. And no, the end of Mark is not the only passage, probably not even in your Bible.
According to you there is a problem with things being revealed because it not plain in scripture.I don't think that was my point actually. :hmm: If a doctrine goes against the plain text of scripture, then the only option would be for it to be a "revealed" doctrine. As a good example, we could talk about infant baptism. I could say likewise about infant baptism that it must be a revealed doctrine because it isn't supported or plainly given by scripture. Additionally, like the resurrection, baptism isn't a subject that the scriptures are silent on. So, in my opinion, infant baptism is something that is taught and not by scripture. Also in my opinion, the same is true with the sabbath resurrection.
Those might not have been your intentions but you did. You make comments trying to mask them as uplifting, but indeed they are very cynical in nature.

I never once said there is something wrong with you or anyone else calling themselves a Christian, you are what you are. What you have done is twisted my words. What I did say is I am not a Christian, and gave my reasoning behind it, and if you do not see anything with being called a pagan then so be it; continue to refer to yourself as a Gentile. If you do not refer to yourself as a Gentile then good for you.

When I read the word of God I am able to put myself in the scripture and say hey that is me. When I read the word Gentile I do not do that, because I know how it is being used. People argue the fact that it means people other than Jews. That would be correct, as I have stated before. The problem with that is in those days if you were not a Jew you were known as a Gentile, and only the Jews served the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, any one else was a Gentile, pagan confused and without God. You cannot be a Gentile and serve the God we do. The definition is with out God.

I cannot see anyone who serves our God agreeing to be a Gentile. Maybe we once were, but not anymore. I have a God His name is YHVH.

It does not upset me as you suggested that you do not agree with me. What upset me is you make assumptions with no validity, and you continue to twist my words. We can have a conversation, but I will not sit back stagnantly as you misconstrue my thoughts.

If you are going to quote me, keep it in the context as I have written, do not post a quote then reinterpret the meaning. Which you completely understand though might not agree with. How can you quote me about throwing stones, being our words today, then in the same passage say you are not intending to do, unless you understood?Well, I apologize for my manner. This is a Christian forum mlaw31, so when someone comes along as our guest knowing that and saying essentially "I'm not one of those", or actually, "I graduated from being one of those", then that puts me on the defensive. That motivates me to post to you in the manner I do. And as one of the hosts, I don't intend to sit back as you misconstrue Christianity. If you feel that is twisting your words then you are going to have to show where you haven't said that or inferred that with your testimony.

ImmenseDisciple
Jan 19th 2008, 11:33 PM
Christian was a name given by the Antiochans who had no authority to name the children of God. You can only name what is yours, or what you rule over.
Sorry to bring up something older which may have been covered, but - what's your authority? Didn't you chose your description for yourself?

Clifton
Jan 19th 2008, 11:37 PM
clifton- you are a pleasant person to midrash with, thank you for your input. Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai.


Todah Rabah (Thank you very much) - I would not say I am an expositor as much as an exegete. ;)

What I was interesting in, was getting my memory refreshed: Did the 613 commandments of Moses include The 10 Commandments of YHVH in the total of 613 - or, is it the 613 + the 10 (which would total 623)?

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide on this.;)

Clifton
Jan 19th 2008, 11:55 PM
As I offered, I am well aware of the controversy. And no, the end of Mark is not the only passage, probably not even in your Bible.I don't think that was my point actually. :hmm:...

I do believe it is a matter of what Bible one has, especially if he or she is a newborn - if they run out to the store and buy a Textus Receptus or Byzantine-Majority based Bible, they are going to have Mark 16:9-20, even unbracketed or reduced to an Appendix, because that passage is in the those Greek New Testaments;

All the current Greek New Testaments used in the past century or so are 85%+ in agreement - I have many of them, because I am greedy and want it all :D

mlaw31
Jan 20th 2008, 12:02 AM
immense- Quote:To not even see yourself as a kind of Christian, whatever you ultimately want to call yourself, seems to go against the fact of your life with Christ.

On the contrary, I use terms to refer to myself as God did. A Hebrew
Exodus 10:3

3 So Moses and Aaron came in to Pharaoh and said to him, “Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews: ‘How long will you refuse to humble yourself before Me? Let My people go, that they may serve Me.



An Israelite:
Romans 9:3-5

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context#fen-NKJV-28153a)] according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.



2Cor 11:22
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.




Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

So you see God is included in the title I choose to relate myself with. The one he calls me by A Hebrew Israelite AKA A citizen of the kingdom of God AKA God's people.



I believe that should answer both your questions. The second one being Quote:what's your authority? Didn't you chose your description for yourself?

mlaw31
Jan 20th 2008, 12:04 AM
Clifton- I believe the 613 commandments include the 10. if you google 613 commandments you can get a list, the list vary some, but it is a starting point.

Quote:I would not say I am an expositor as much as an exegete
Good point, very well spoken; I should say the same.

Clifton
Jan 20th 2008, 12:25 AM
Clifton- I believe the 613 commandments include the 10. if you google 613 commandments you can get a list, the list vary some, but it is a starting point.

Quote:I would not say I am an expositor as much as an exegete
Good point, very well spoken; I should say the same.


Thanks. I was wondering because I THINK some people on these boards and USENET groups are getting the 603 commandments mixed up with the 10 Commandments.

mlaw31
Jan 20th 2008, 07:47 AM
watchinginawe=
And as one of the hosts, I don't intend to sit back as you misconstrue Christianity. If you feel that is twisting your words then you are going to have to show where you haven't said that or inferred that with your testimony.

Me saying I am not Christian although I used to be, seems to be a problem.

Quote:Well, I apologize for my manner. This is a Christian forum mlaw31, so when someone comes along as our guest knowing that and saying essentially "I'm not one of those", or actually, "I graduated from being one of those", then that puts me on the defensive. That motivates me to post to you in the manner I do.

I do not see the difference if I were to say for example: 6months ago I was Baptist and had been all my life, but now I am pentecostal, and have been studying and learning about the Holy Spirit. Let me share with you what I have learned. Speaking in tongues is real, and God does heal with laying on of hands.

Some people on this site would argue that speaking in tongues and God healing with the laying on of hands is not for today etc...

I believe because, I prefer not to call myself a Christian and I have a different lifestyle, one that maybe you do not completely understand it bothers you. If you feel like I am saying I am better than anyone here, maybe it is because in your heart you feel insecure, or threatened by me.

It is a shame you have been motivated to talking to me in the manner you have, because I have disclosed who I am, and who I was, and all you can do about is offer me an empty apology followed by your justification.

Quote:Well, I apologize for my manner... That motivates me to post to you in the manner I do. If you feel that is twisting your words then you are going to have to show where you haven't said that or inferred that with your testimony.

As far as me misconstruing Christianity, I have not. You cannot tell an ex pilot that because he no longer flies, he does not know what it feels like to take off or land a plane. His input is just as valuable as anyone else.

On this forum Christians debate among themselves about different scriptures, and how a Christian should live. The things they should and should not do. Does that mean they are misconstruing Christianity?

As one of the hosts here, you represent more than yourself, you represent this forum. I feel the way you have responded to me has been uncalled for, and somewhat crude.
If this is the type of behavior I can expect from you, then do me a favor do not address me in your post. Let us end communication, until you no longer feel you have to talk to me in any other fashion, except one you would use with someone who is the apple of God's eye.

mlaw31
Jan 20th 2008, 07:50 AM
Clifton- I concur

watchinginawe
Jan 20th 2008, 02:59 PM
I do not see the difference if I were to say for example: 6months ago I was Baptist and had been all my life, but now I am pentecostal, and have been studying and learning about the Holy Spirit. Let me share with you what I have learned. Speaking in tongues is real, and God does heal with laying on of hands.

Some people on this site would argue that speaking in tongues and God healing with the laying on of hands is not for today etc...There is a difference mlaw31. We have no problem with the above doctrines. In fact, I agree with you and there are plenty on this site that would disagree with you. We discuss these things here. We are an online community for exactly that purpose. However, you have come here knowing our purpose and how we operate and have decided to NOT discuss those things on these forums in the manner we provide for believers. Now that brings motive into the situation.

I believe because, I prefer not to call myself a Christian and I have a different lifestyle, one that maybe you do not completely understand it bothers you. If you feel like I am saying I am better than anyone here, maybe it is because in your heart you feel insecure, or threatened by me.That isn't the case mlaw31. Please remember that this is the internet. Whatever kind of life you live on here doesn't affect me much. Any level of concern I have has only to do with my responsibilities here as an admin of this forum. I am not insecure, or otherwise threatened.
As one of the hosts here, you represent more than yourself, you represent this forum. I feel the way you have responded to me has been uncalled for, and somewhat crude.
If this is the type of behavior I can expect from you, then do me a favor do not address me in your post. Let us end communication, until you no longer feel you have to talk to me in any other fashion, except one you would use with someone who is the apple of God's eye.Let me say this. I believe you are in dangerous doctrinal waters and would warn any of our members from consideration of your chosen path. You probably believe likewise for us. There isn't going to be much we can do for each other on these forums. We didn't seek you out and we are mindful that you sought us out to make your case. We have been gracious to allow you to proceed to this point.

As your host, I am telling you that the party is near over and it is time to think about leaving. I hope we can part ways cordially.

Thanks for coming by, it has been interesting, and may God bless your path.

mlaw31
Jan 20th 2008, 07:09 PM
Watchinginawe:
Quote: However, you have come here knowing our purpose and how we operate and have decided to NOT discuss those things on these forums in the manner we provide for believers

I cannot discuss these things in manner you provided for believers, because although I have said time and time again I do believe in Jesus being the messiah and dying for my sins and raising from the grave; I have to post with non-believers. I am no even allowed to respond to any one else unless they are responding to my thread.

I do believe other than the place I post my threads, I am posting in the same manner of the Christians on the forum. I have discussed topics upon being asked to about who I am (Hebrew Israelite) and what do I believe. I have made comments about the Sabbath, which there are Christian threads about, and about word study in the bible (gentile which I started with no one inquiring)

Quote: Let me say this. I believe you are in dangerous doctrinal waters and would warn any of our members from consideration of your chosen path.

You believe what you want to about me, I have not said anything that I did not bring the word of God into. I have some of the same arguments that Christians on this forum in different threads do. I am a believer in Jesus, and I live according to biblical instruction found in the Torah, but yet you view that as a dangerous doctrine? It is the same doctrine that Jesus taught. To obey the commandments of God, and not to just do them legalistically, but to carry them out in your heart. Surely you know that Jesus, and Paul did not carry around a KJV of the bible. They taught Torah filled with the Spirit of God.

You said Quote: I am not insecure, or otherwise threatened.

But yet you call what I believe dangerous, if it is dangerous to me, and you advice others not to listen it seems to me you view me a threat. Anything dangerous is threatening; furthermore, you are trying to expel me from this forum because of what I believe. Maybe if I were a well-spoken atheist I would still be welcome by you to post in the non-believers thread where I already am.

Quote: You probably believe likewise for us.

That to me is the problem. You do not know what I believe. You think I came here to bash Christians or rescue them from a sinking ship. You are wrong! Like I stated in my introduction, which is where this forum began, I am here to discuss the word of God with those who have a passion about it like I do. Not to conform anyone, not to ridicule anyone, but simply for discussion.

RoadWarrior
Jan 20th 2008, 08:52 PM
...
On the contrary, I use terms to refer to myself as God did. A Hebrew
Exodus 10:3

3 So Moses and Aaron came in to Pharaoh and said to him, “Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews: ‘How long will you refuse to humble yourself before Me? Let My people go, that they may serve Me.

An Israelite:
Romans 9:3-5

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context#fen-NKJV-28153a)] according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

2Cor 11:22
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

So you see God is included in the title I choose to relate myself with. The one he calls me by A Hebrew Israelite AKA A citizen of the kingdom of God AKA God's people.
...

mlaw, this post was not in response to me, but it has troubled me since I first read it. I tried to put it out of my mind, but I found myself awake in the night praying for you.

You keep saying that you are a Hebrew, but then you say that you are a black man. You are learning the Hebrew language, so it is not your native tongue. You are living in the US, working your way through school. I have a really hard time understanding why you call yourself Hebrew. The quotes above which you used (I believe to justify) why you call yourself that, do not apply to those of us who do not have blood descendancy from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Paul (whom you quote) was a direct blood descendant of these. It is a matter of genealogy. I think this is where you have gotten off track, and why you are being seen as bringing forth heretical doctrine. Paul could say he was a Hebrew, because he was born a Hebrew.

In Nigeria, there are tribes by the names of Ibo, Yoruba, and Biafran. I know a man of the Yoruba tribe who married a woman of the Biafran tribe. Did he become a Biafran? No, he remained a Yoruba. Did she become Yoruba? No, she remained Biafran. Can they both be Christians? Yes, of course. Yoruba and Biafran are bloodlines, and tribal identities. Christian is a word which means "follower of Christ."

You hate the word, yet you claim to be a follower of Christ. Can you not see how this troubles us? We are happy to be called Christians. We realize that the world hates the word, and hates us. But that is our cross to bear. Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow Him. So that is what we do.

I expect you will be offended that I prayed for you. I expect you will argue with my points which I have made. I expect you will repeat the same arguments which you have already used, and there is no value in continuing to beat that dead horse.

So I do not require a response, fellow traveler. I only pray that you will continue to move in the direction that leads to God, no matter how you get sidetracked along the way.

Blessings to you from an Irish lass who is now American ....


May the road rise to meet you
May the wind be always at your back
The sun shine warm upon your face
The rains fall soft upon your fields
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the hollow of his hand.

mlaw31
Jan 20th 2008, 09:45 PM
warrior-
Quote:I expect you will be offended that I prayed for you. I expect you will argue with my points which I have made. I expect you will repeat the same arguments which you have already used, and there is no value in continuing to beat that dead horse.

I am not offended that you prayed for me why should I be?

Quote: You keep saying that you are a Hebrew, but then you say that you are a black man.

Because I am a black man born in the U.S. does not mean I am not a Hebrew man also.

Quote:The quotes above which you used (I believe to justify) why you call yourself that, do not apply to those of us who do not have blood descendancy from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

If I can not consider myself if only by the word of God to be the seed, then how do you? Christians consider themselves to be the seed of Abraham right? Therefore entitled to the blessings. Abraham was not born a Jew, he was born into a pagan family. He is known as the first Hebrew one who crossed over.

Quote: In Nigeria, there are tribes by the names of Ibo, Yoruba, and Biafran. I know a man of the Yoruba tribe who married a woman of the Biafran tribe. Did he become a Biafran? No, he remained a Yoruba. Did she become Yoruba? No, she remained Biafran.

I am not referring to a marriage, I am referring to an adoption. In biblical times and under Jewish law an adopted child receives all the birthrights of natural born children, and in many cases a double portion, and an adopted child could not lose their inheritance.

Have you ever heard of Ethiopian Jews? They are blacks who are Jews, and they are not the only ones. There are Spanish Jews as well, to be Jewish by blood has nothing to do with color, it is blood. I am black because of my color. I am part of the only race in the United States that does not have an identity I can easily trace.

Russians come here they are called Russians, The Chinese are called Chinese, The Irish, Irish, My people who has their identity striped away from them are referred to by many names. -iggers, Afro-American- African American ,Black. Although difficult to prove my blood line and lineage I am in the process of ding so. But regardless of what the test will say, I am an adopted child, grafted in, entitled to the birthrights. I am one liken unto Abraham A Hebrew one who has crossed over.

Quote: You hate the word, yet you claim to be a follower of Christ. Can you not see how this troubles us? We are happy to be called Christians. We realize that the world hates the word, and hates us. But that is our cross to bear. Jesus told us to take up our cross and follow Him. So that is what we do.

I do not hate the word, it simply is not who I am. So your troubles are self inflicted. I choose not to call myself a Christian but that does not mean I hate the word or the people that do. If I did I would not have come here to fellowship. You said it your cross to bear, let me bear mine. I am not asking you to change your life, so please do not ask me.

Once we get past our differences maybe we can joy in our similarities, because ultimately we all believe in the same God, regardless of what we call our selves, bottom line is we are His children. Some Catholic, some Protestant, some Christian, some Pentecostal, some Jewish, some Hebrew. But we all serve the same God.

I hope now that you have expressed yourself , you can get a good nights sleep. If you cannot and feel led to pray for me again, pray that I fulfill my destiny. For everyone does not have the same purpose I have mine and you have yours.

Isaiah 54:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=54&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
“ Behold, I have created the blacksmith Who blows the coals in the fire, Who brings forth an instrument for his work; And I have created the spoiler to destroy.

I am not saying I am or you are the spoiler, but simply saying we have all been created for our purpose, who are we to judge what God has done?

watchinginawe
Jan 21st 2008, 02:31 AM
mlaw31, we just don't have a venue for you to participate in. The Christians Answer forum isn't a doctrinal forum and I think we both agree it is inappropriate and distracting for these threads to be there.

But we have our rules and our stated purpose and we don't intend on abandoning them. Look at the name tab of our site: BibleForums Christian Message Board and Forums. Because of our rules and your principles regarding the label Christian we just can't seem to come to an arrangement that is suitable to both of us.

For that reason, I have restricted you to posting in the Chat to the Moderators forum. you are welcome to continue your discussion with dljc and with any of our mods that want to chime in. But the public posting on our site has come to a conclusion.

mlaw31
Jan 21st 2008, 04:29 AM
I would like for you to explain to me what principles about the label Christian you are referring to.

watchinginawe
Jan 21st 2008, 04:48 AM
mlaw31, what I mean is your principled decision to not call yourself a Christian. That means on principle you deny the label. There is nothing wrong with that.

Here is a definition of how I mean to use the word:

From dictionary.com:
15.on principle, a.according to personal rules for right conduct; as a matter of moral principle: He refused on principle to agree to the terms of the treaty.

Thanks.

mlaw31
Jan 21st 2008, 04:52 AM
So, like I said before, the fact that I will not say I am a Christian is a problem, even though I was in a non-Christian room.
I truly hope that one day you are able to accept others for who they are. I am able to accept your decision even though I do not agree. You are right as you have pointed out so many times this is a Christian Forum and regardless of the different threads for non-Christians, it is for Christians. It is a shame that a title can do all you have done, regardless of my beliefs in the word of God and God himself. Christian to Christian can debate as much as they want about the sabbath or the gifts of the spirit, but let a non-Christian like myself voice their opinion about the same or similar topics and the end result is sorry you have to go. Or you can stay further confined to only the host. It makes one wonder...

watchinginawe
Jan 21st 2008, 05:05 AM
Our forum is set up for Christians and non-Christians (unbelievers). You sort of fall through the cracks for us.

Here is our purpose mlaw31 (from the rules): This board is for an exploration of the mainstream Christian Protestant faith, and not the faith of other religions.We appreciate and respect other faiths and beliefs, and ask that they do the same while here. Posts running counter to Christianity and the Bible as explained in the Scripture must be in the appropriate category, and framed in such a way as to earnestly seek clarification.

In your posts, you posed your questions to us as "the Christian Faith". You set yourself apart from the Christian Faith as something different. That would make your faith something different than the mainstream Christian Protestant faith. I don't think you disagree with that and it seems completely reasonable. But as our purpose states, our purpose isn't about exploring different sects or beliefs of other believers in Jesus Christ. This includes Catholicism, Seventh Day Adventism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Later Day Saints, Armstrongism, or any other non-Protestant faith.

So, that is where we are at. We really don't have a place to host your threads or an interest in creating one. It just doesn't serve our defined purpose.

mlaw31
Jan 21st 2008, 05:37 AM
I am not asking you to make a place for me, but if a non-christian is a non-believer then a christian is a believer, you would have had a place for me if I said I am a christian, opposed to just saying I am a believer. That is the part I find humor in

watchinginawe
Jan 21st 2008, 05:46 AM
The situation is not unique. We have had other believers come through who on principle would not agree to being labeled a Christian. You might also find it humorous that we spent a great deal of time discussing how to deal with these and we finally decided that we would let the Christian label do the deciding for us for purposes of posting here on these forums.

That is why we proposed the following as our standard:

Definition of "Are you a Christian?" in profile

For the purpose of posting as Christian on this board, we believe:

A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, referred to as Christ or Messiah. Christians believe Jesus to be the only Son of God, who lived a sinless life. He is eternal, uncreated God, and has always been and will always be God, the creator of the universe. At the end of his earthly life He was crucified, on the third day He rose from the dead, and later ascended into heaven.

Christians further believe that Jesus alone offers salvation, and that it is only possible through and by Him. Apart from Jesus Christ, there is no salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 states that "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God that no one should boast". Humans cannot save themselves through good works, only Jesus can save them. Good works, however, are a result of living according to the Word of God.

Christians identify themselves as monotheistic, believing that there is one God.

mlaw31
Jan 21st 2008, 07:18 AM
yes, i read the description, but there is much more to being a christian than that.

Ta-An
Jan 21st 2008, 08:18 AM
yes, i read the description, but there is much more to being a christian than that. Like what?? :hmm:
So what you are saying is that you are falling short of the description of a Christian?? :hmm:

mlaw31
Jan 21st 2008, 08:37 AM
Not that I am falling short, but like I have expressed before there are certain things that Christians believe, and partake in that I do not. All these things grouped together along with the belief in Jesus is what makes a Christian a Christian.

If i meet someone for the first time and they say they are a Christian, I can safely assume more than they believe in Jesus.

watchinginawe
Jan 21st 2008, 03:08 PM
mlaw31, our forum isn't the entrance to the pearly gates.

We simply want to define a likeminded group of people for the purpose of posting on these forums. We aren't a denomination and we tolerate a number of differing views. For that reason, we don't list everything one person or the other characterizes as "being a Christian". We leave that up to the discussions on the forum.

But, we have already decided that we aren't the forum for everybody. We don't try to do that. We are mainly a forum for mainstream protestant Christians.

We have this very same kind of conversation with some Catholics who do take the label of Christian on this site but then become irritated with us, thinking we are unfair, or threatened, or whatever else, for not allowing them to step into each thread and clarify the Catholic doctrine on the subject at hand. That just doesn't fit our purpose and we don't allow it.