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Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 08:33 PM
My mom emailed this to me today. I'm thinking about it and I wonder what you good folks here make of it.


If you do His will only because it makes sense to you, then what has it got to do with Him? You are doing your will. You're back in prison.
-Tzvi Freeman

mouse
Jan 14th 2008, 09:24 PM
If you do His will only because it makes sense to you, then what has it got to do with Him? You are doing your will. You're back in prison.
-Tzvi Freeman

Well, I don't know the context of the quote is. I'll take Freeman on at face value when they say "because it makes sense to you". In which case, understanding something, or something making sense to you, doesn't mean it's easy for you to do or that you want to do it. It may make sense to me to stay up at night praying for the sick, but that doesn't mean I want to, or that my body isn't exhausted and yelling at me to sleep. In which case, it's not my will to do something I don't want to do but do anyway because I understand the need for the sick to be healed.

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 09:26 PM
That's all definitely true. But things we don't understand are even more difficult to do.

always
Jan 14th 2008, 09:33 PM
That's all definitely true. But things we don't understand are even more difficult to do.

But as me being a christian, I lean not to my own understanding

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


understanding can be a prison, if you never venture outside of your own

mouse
Jan 14th 2008, 09:34 PM
That's all definitely true. But things we don't understand are even more difficult to do.

Not true. I don't understand why I had to suddenly give my best friend that certain Bible verse last night, but I do understand why I had to throw out my $15 000 dragon collection. The former, which I didn't understand, was far easier than the latter, which I understood fully.

P.S. BEAUTIFUL avatar!!!

Fenris
Jan 14th 2008, 09:37 PM
Not true. I don't understand why I had to suddenly give my best friend that certain Bible verse last night, but I do understand why I had to throw out my $15 000 dragon collection. The former, which I didn't understand, was far easier than the latter, which I understood fully.If everything God wanted us to do was rational, how would we prove our belief?


P.S. BEAUTIFUL avatar!!!

He was a great dog.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 15th 2008, 03:38 AM
If you do His will only because it makes sense to you, then what has it got to do with Him? You are doing your will. You're back in prison.
-Tzvi FreemanThe way i see it is this: We like our Father Abraham don't always understand God's Word, though it probably is often more simple than we think it is.

Example when God told Abraham that Sarah would have a son. Obviosuly both decided that this was a thing of impossibility considering their ages.

So Abraham's wife brought it up to Abraham and told him he should take Hagar, and then they would have a son.

This was done in faith, but they leaned unto their own understanding to get what God said must happen to come about. With disasterous results.

Finally they realized the error of their ways, and they did what they had to do for Sarah to conceive and bear a son.

We are all human, and we all make mistakes, one of which is to lean upon our own understanding, and taking matters into our own hands after we determine which way it would work out best.

In conclusion i feel the quote is off the mark a little, because i disagree that it is doing you own will when you do what God says He wants you to do whether it should make sense to you or not. However, as i pointed out, we need to tread carefully and not mistake what God has said and supplement it with our own understanding.

Everything God had said about Sarah conceiving and bearing a son would come true. Man thinking it was impossible took a different course of action, though everything God had said pointed to them having to have sex in order to fulfill/uphold God's Word.

We should always ask God for understanding of His commands, so that we will do it the right way. But sometimes God allows things as seen with our father Abraham, to experience the mistakes and learn from them.

So if you believe a command of God makes sense to you, you do the best you can, and always keep an open mind about the possibility of doing things the wrong way.

Hope that helps.

Shalom,
Tanja

Frances
Jan 15th 2008, 07:50 PM
Well I have frequently found that the Lord tells me to do what seems reasonable to me, but with an ulterior motive. I then discover I'm in the ideal place to do what He really wants me to do, which it would have been much harder for me to agree to do previously. I'm not in any sort of a prison, but enjoy the freedom of being in the centre of God's Will. (The Lord also tests me with things I really don't want to do too)

Fenris
Jan 15th 2008, 08:04 PM
Well, that's the whole point of human existence, isn't it? To be tested and (hopefully) pass?

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 15th 2008, 09:31 PM
Well, that's the whole point of human existence, isn't it? To be tested and (hopefully) pass?
What if you don't pass ?
Who then has your back ?

If a sin is a sin, no matter what and the Law reuires punihsment, then what hope do you have ?


Shalom,
Tanja

Fenris
Jan 15th 2008, 09:38 PM
What if you don't pass ?
Who then has your back ?

If a sin is a sin, no matter what and the Law reuires punihsment, then what hope do you have ?


Shalom,
Tanja
Of course the law requires punishment. But what test did you fail? Did you hurt someone's feelings? Or did you murder millions of people? I presume more serious transgressions have more serious punishments.

mouse
Jan 16th 2008, 02:14 AM
If everything God wanted us to do was rational, how would we prove our belief?

Where was that point made? That was neither said nor implied.
I think the example I provided adequately demonstrates the quote is not entirely correct.

danield
Jan 16th 2008, 03:00 AM
If you do His will only because it makes sense to you, then what has it got to do with Him? You are doing your will. You're back in prison.
-Tzvi Freeman


Just because you understand his will it does not detract from someone's love to the Lord. Look at Jesus. He understood his father extremely well and he beautifully interpreted many scriptures so we could better understand what we are to do to be his servants. I think the key thing in this statement is the word ONLY. But if you do understand his will and love the lord and live to do his will then there is no prison.

Teke
Jan 17th 2008, 12:00 AM
My mom emailed this to me today. I'm thinking about it and I wonder what you good folks here make of it.


Sounds like a quote from "Bringing Heaven Down to Earth". :)

The transformed heart (by sanctification in prayer) always knows Him and His will even when the head doesn't. :saint:

Fenris
Jan 17th 2008, 01:16 PM
Sounds like a quote from "Bringing Heaven Down to Earth". :)

Well, that's the Jewish concept on why we're here.

9Marksfan
Jan 17th 2008, 04:56 PM
There are many aspects to God's will and God's character that are indeed "inscrutable" - but He has made the most important aspects of His will known to us in the Bible - and that is first and foremost to believe on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 Jn 5:12 NKJV

Mograce2U
Jan 17th 2008, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Teke
Sounds like a quote from "Bringing Heaven Down to Earth". :)


Well, that's the Jewish concept on why we're here.
(Rom 10:6-9 KJV) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) {7} Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) {8} But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; {9} That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Teke
Jan 17th 2008, 06:17 PM
Well, that's the Jewish concept on why we're here.

The Christian concept is, that God is already with us (IOW heaven is on earth, as the Kingdom is within you).:)

Psa 118:27 God [is] the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, [even] unto the horns of the altar.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Fenris
Jan 17th 2008, 06:23 PM
The Christian concept is, that God is already with us
Right, and we're still trying to bring Him down here by making the world a better place.

Teke
Jan 17th 2008, 07:21 PM
Right, and we're still trying to bring Him down here by making the world a better place.

What does this mean. That man can make something "better" than God.
I'm sorry, but I do not understand.:dunno:

Fenris
Jan 17th 2008, 07:26 PM
What does this mean. That man can make something "better" than God.
I'm sorry, but I do not understand.:dunno:God left the world incomplete so as to make mankind His partner in creation.

Teke
Jan 17th 2008, 07:28 PM
God left the world incomplete so as to make mankind His partner in creation.

How is that? :confused

Fenris
Jan 17th 2008, 07:44 PM
How is that? :confusedGod left the world imperfect so that WE could make it perfect.

Teke
Jan 17th 2008, 08:23 PM
God left the world imperfect so that WE could make it perfect.

I believe that is known as the "order from chaos" theory.
IMHO, God created everything "perfect" (my word would be "holy") in His wisdom, and gives mankind the opportunity (by having a choice) to further perfect (sanctify) themselves while here. ie. discern clean from unclean or IOW sanctify that which is holy.

Exd 30:29 And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.


It would seem that by sanctification does the holy become "most holy". Meaning the creation is holy, we only have but to sanctify it, by being sanctified by Him (most Holy).
It is not the world which we are or can perfect, but ourselves. Change begins within (ourselves), not from the outside (the world).

Fenris
Jan 17th 2008, 08:30 PM
I believe that is known as the "order from chaos" theory.It also happens to be basic Jewish theology.


IMHO, God created everything "perfect" (my word would be "holy") in His wisdom, and gives mankind the opportunity (by having a choice) to further perfect (sanctify) themselves while here. ie. discern clean from unclean or IOW sanctify that which is holy.The world doesn't look perfect. Far from it. Also, in hebrew the word 'holy' has the root 'to set aside', not 'to make perfect'.


Exd 30:29 And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.


It would seem that by sanctification does the holy become "most holy". Meaning the creation is holy, we only have but to sanctify it, by being sanctified by Him (most Holy).All the talk about sanctification is very nice, but it does nothing to feed the hungry or clothe the naked. That's our job.


It is not the world which we are or can perfect, but ourselves. Change begins within (ourselves), not from the outside (the world).If you change 'on the inside' and ignore the human condition around you, does it really matter?

Teke
Jan 17th 2008, 09:12 PM
It also happens to be basic Jewish theology.

It is also why "signs" are necessary in Judaism.


The world doesn't look perfect. Far from it. Also, in hebrew the word 'holy' has the root 'to set aside', not 'to make perfect'.

Which is why I differentiated meaning.
One must set themselves aside to God to be perfected by sanctification.
Christians do this with prayer.


All the talk about sanctification is very nice, but it does nothing to feed the hungry or clothe the naked. That's our job.

Doing what your suppose to is not a job, it is a responsibility. Being responsible doesn't sanctify you.
And, even if I could do nothing but pray for the hungry, sick and dying, I would be doing something nonetheless. Perhaps something even greater for them.

But then you should know this, in denying oneself for another.


If you change 'on the inside' and ignore the human condition around you, does it really matter?

Who can ignore the human condition without considering the cause of such a condition. And who of us can say the condition is not our own fault because we haven't addressed the cause, ourselves.

Compassion and charity are virtues, but they can be superficial.

Fenris
Jan 17th 2008, 09:17 PM
It is also why "signs" are necessary in Judaism.
I don't know what you mean.


Which is why I differentiated meaning.
One must set themselves aside to God to be perfected by sanctification.
Christians do this with prayer.Prayer is good. Caring for your fellow human being is also good.



Doing what your suppose to is not a job, it is a responsibility. Being responsible doesn't sanctify you.Doing God's will sanctifies you. It;s God's will that we care for each other.


And, even if I could do nothing but pray for the hungry, sick and dying, I would be doing something nonetheless. Perhaps something even greater for them. Prayer doesn't feed them. God doesn't feed them. God sends YOU AND I to feed them.


But then you should know this, in denying oneself for another.I don't know what this means either.



Who can ignore the human condition without considering the cause of such a condition. And who of us can say the condition is not our own fault because we haven't addressed the cause, ourselves.What 'cause' is that?


Compassion and charity are virtues, but they can be superficial.
Not to someone who is needy.

Teke
Jan 17th 2008, 09:30 PM
I don't know what you mean.

Then how would you recognize order from chaos.


Prayer is good. Caring for your fellow human being is also good.

Agreed, and they should be done together when possible.


Doing God's will sanctifies you. It;s God's will that we care for each other.
Prayer doesn't feed them. God doesn't feed them. God sends YOU AND I to feed them.

If I care for you but can't feed you, does it mean I care any less. I don't believe it does.


I don't know what this means either.

You do not know what it means to deny yourself something so that another will benefit. I believe you do.:saint:


What 'cause' is that?

I pointed out it is us that is the cause. There are not needy people because there is nothing to fill the need. Be it money or other.



Not to someone who is needy.

Which is why they are the easiest to fall prey to those who wish to take advantage of their situation. And even these vary greatly.
As sometimes it is necessary and God's will for someone to be needy to understand the needs of others.

It is all God's will.

Fenris
Jan 17th 2008, 09:37 PM
Then how would you recognize order from chaos.
We just do.


If I care for you but can't feed you, does it mean I care any less. I don't believe it does.If you care for me and don't feed me when you could, it means you care less.



You do not know what it means to deny yourself something so that another will benefit. I believe you do.:saint:
Ah. I call it 'marriage' :rofl:


I pointed out it is us that is the cause. There are not needy people because there is nothing to fill the need. Be it money or other.The cause then is irrelevant. The point is to see that your fellow human is also created in the image of God, and to care for them. I thought that was a basic Christian concept?!




Which is why they are the easiest to fall prey to those who wish to take advantage of their situation. And even these vary greatly.
As sometimes it is necessary and God's will for someone to be needy to understand the needs of others.

It is all God's will.Then don't help anybody. It's God's will that someone be poor, or oppressed, or in pain, or killed. Who are we to interfere with God's will.

Teke
Jan 17th 2008, 09:55 PM
If you care for me and don't feed me when you could, it means you care less.

I said "can't feed you". If you had been here for hurricane Katrina, you would know what I speak of.



Ah. I call it 'marriage' :rofl:

:lol: Well, that is one example.


The cause then is irrelevant. The point is to see that your fellow human is also created in the image of God, and to care for them. I thought that was a basic Christian concept?!

It is not irrelevant, it is the most important thing. I refer to the Katrina disaster here again. There was no help, no water, no food, just people helping one another any way they could.

I had nothing after some days, and no help came. But the men in the area were trying to remove the debris with chain saws and needed gas, they asked me if they could take the gas from my crushed car to use. Where we not caring for one another.


Then don't help anybody. It's God's will that someone be poor, or oppressed, or in pain, or killed. Who are we to interfere with God's will.

Sometimes it is just God's will.
If the country I live in can send a whole fully equipped military to the middle east in 24 hrs, but can't get food and water to a couple of places in their own country, I say it is God's will my friend. And it was not an easy lesson to learn BTW. The most critically ill were at the airport here with a team of medical professionals and they simply could not keep them alive without help, which didn't come. Those people also must accept that it is God's will that all those folks died there.

Fenris
Jan 17th 2008, 10:38 PM
The point is to do the best we can to help one another. Not throw your hands up in the air and say, "It's God's will."

Brother Mark
Jan 17th 2008, 10:52 PM
My mom emailed this to me today. I'm thinking about it and I wonder what you good folks here make of it.


A short story...

A father tells his eldest son to build a house in the valley. The son goes down and examines the land and determines it is good land to build a house. He then gathers the necessary materials and builds a nice house.

The same father, tells his youngest son to build a barn on the hill. His son inspects the hill and decides the land in the valley is better. He gathers the materials and builds the barn closer to the house down in the valley.

Which son was obedient?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Neither. The older son inspected the land and decided it was good before building the house.

Teke
Jan 17th 2008, 11:10 PM
The point is to do the best we can to help one another. Not throw your hands up in the air and say, "It's God's will."

Life is a two way street, not one way. There is more than one point of view to any given subject.
IOW either way of the two would be just fine as God has it all in His capable hands, of this I am persuaded. :spin:

turtledove
Jan 18th 2008, 01:14 AM
The point is to do the best we can to help one another. Not throw your hands up in the air and say, "It's God's will."

Good point!

And thinking that everything, good or bad, is God's will is basically fatalistic and tends to be passive. Agreed that surely God uses others to accomplish His Will. We find what God's Will is more and more as we pray and study what the scriptures reveal to us and grow in wisdom and the knowledge of His Ways.

Fenris
Jan 18th 2008, 10:48 AM
Agreed that surely God uses others to accomplish His Will.
Well said, well said.

Lest we forget, God did not stop tragedies like the Holocaust. American GIs, acting as God's agents did. In so doing, they became God's partners in making the world a more Godly place.

Joyfilled
Jan 18th 2008, 02:38 PM
My mom emailed this to me today. I'm thinking about it and I wonder what you good folks here make of it.


Only when you understand the function of the Holy Spirit will you understand those who do God's will. No one can do God's will without His Holy Spirit inside them. But those without the Spirit definitely only understand the human will. ;)

Fenris
Jan 18th 2008, 02:44 PM
Thank you for that cryptic contribution. :confused

Clavicula_Nox
Jan 21st 2008, 04:53 PM
Thank you for that cryptic contribution. :confused

He/she is saying you don't know what you're talking about because you checked the "No" box.

Fenris
Jan 21st 2008, 05:01 PM
Ah. The plot thickens.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 22nd 2008, 02:57 AM
Of course the law requires punishment. But what test did you fail? Did you hurt someone's feelings? Or did you murder millions of people? I presume more serious transgressions have more serious punishments.
Well here's the thing, we ALL fail at some point or another......so, do you know ALL the failures you have comitted ? If not, how will you atone for those sins/mistakes. transgressions you're not aware of ?

Shalom,
Tanja

Fenris
Jan 22nd 2008, 12:44 PM
Why do you think that God can't distinguish between big sins and small ones?