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9Marksfan
Jan 17th 2008, 10:49 AM
"And again He said, “To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Lk 13:20-21 NKJV

We were looking at this passage in our bible study last night and there was some friendly disagreement over what this parable meant. Most of us considered that, as with the preceding parable of the mustard seed, it was a positive message and spoke (in all likelihood) about the spread of Christ's kingdom gradually and at first imperceptibly in our hearts and lives until every aspect of them is touched by His grace. While we didn't look into the other possibility (as I see it) of the kingdom expanding and affecting the whole world (to make it similar to the mustard seed parable), I'm aware of this view too.

But one brother (a retired pastor who has recently joined us) disagreed and considered that the parable should be seen as a warning to the church of the corruption of false teaching and immorality, as leaven is always spoken of in Scripture as being one of these things (Christ's teaching elsewhere, Gal 5:9 and 1 Cor 5:6 come to mind) - yet it is the leaven itself that is compared to the kingdom of God - if it is false teaching, then surely the meal into which the leaven was put would be the kingdom of God, which was corrupted by false teaching/immorality?

Looking at the 1 Cor 5 passage, is there any significance in Paul saying that we should not replace the "old leaven" with the "new leaven" of grace
but that we should be UNLEAVENED!

One of the commentaries I looked at said that goats, birds, serpents and thieves represent both good and bad things in Scripture - and this was the one occasion where leaven is described in a good light.

I'm left feeling a little uncertain about the passage - if it was indeed a warning, wouldn't the LORD have made it clearer eg "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"?

What do people think?

Scruffy Kid
Jan 17th 2008, 01:29 PM
Dear 9Markfan,

Hi!

IMHO what I understand to have been the majority view in your bible study -- that Jesus is comparing the leaven itself to the Kingdom of God, and thus making the action of leaven in meal an analogy to how the KoG works -- is entirely correct.

There are several reasons for this, and several reasons why I find the argument that "leaven" here represents corruption unconvincing. First, as you rightly state, Jesus says "the kingdom of God ... is like leaven, which a woman took." Thus, without some strong counter-indication, the natural reading is that Jesus is analogizing the KoG to leaven, and that the leaven is a good thing. Second, both in Luke and in the parallel passage in Matthew (13:33), this parable is -- as you again rightly point out -- twinned with a parable in which Jesus compares the KoG with a mustard seed which, though tiny, becomes the greatest of shrubs, offering a place to build nests. Third, this latter comparison, incidentally, evokes Jesus' use of the term mustard seed (at Matt 17:20) to speak of how faith -- even the tinyest amount -- can have earthshaking results. Fourth, in Matthew, these parables are presented together with the parable "the Sower" which again emphasizes seed as something that brings forth abundant growth for God's kingdom.

The interpretation you give, of gradual and at first imperceptible increase, in our hearts in the world, again seems to me to be a natural reading, and probably the primary emphasis, of the text. However, I think there might be some other elements there as well. The KoG in this saying is, both in Luke and Matthew, like leaven which a woman "took and hid" in meal. The element of hiddenness, here, seems to me to be an overtone of the parable, picked up in Matthew both in the later parable of the treasure in the field and in the hiddenness implied in the secret of the kingdom (vv. 11-17) in Jesus' discussion, quoting Isaiah 6, of the parable of the Sower, preceding.

In general, I think that the words of Scripture (with the events and images which those words present to us) are deep, alive and active (like leaven!): meant to keep working in our hearts as we ponder them. Thus, I think many sayings of Jesus are multi-layered. There are many important things he's saying in his parables, and part of the point of teaching in parables is to get us to keep pondering and applying the parables. (This argument I just presented must not be confused with the false idea, which I would emphatically reject, that the Scriptures are unclear, up for grabs, or to be interpreted any old way one chooses. They are clear, but also lively, and keep challenging and teaching us in new ways.)

Such an understanding is related to a broad understanding of the way Scripture flexibly and powerfully uses symbolic language to maximum effect, to evoke, form the patterns of our thinking, represent, compare, and so on.

While it is the case that there are some tendencies for a book, passage, or larger contexts of scripture to use particular images in consistent ways, the Scriptures are not a coded message, IMO, which is to be "decoded" mechanically with some key or codebook. The idea that leaven (yeast) always represents something evil relies upon something like that kind of codebook approach, IMO. Stars are always this, brass is always that, trees are always such and such, birds are always thus and so. I see no basis in Scripture for assuming that kind of approach.

The idea that "leaven" or yeast in Scripture is always bad also seems to me to be an artifact of today's grocery-store living. For bread-eating cultures -- all of them up until recently -- which were not as rich and technological and removed from agricultural life as ours now is, leaven, yeast, was an obvious, natural part of life and of bread-making. People generally made their own bread rather than buying it at stores, and everyone understood that leaven and the rising of dough, and so on, was a part of life. One might as well have said that "the sun" or "the earth" or "vines" represented evil. It would have been a silly and inflexible way of using life experience that had many connotations and meanings as a kind of code.

FWIW

Blessings,
Scruff

tgallison
Jan 17th 2008, 01:55 PM
"And again He said, “To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Lk 13:20-21 NKJV

We were looking at this passage in our bible study last night and there was some friendly disagreement over what this parable meant. Most of us considered that, as with the preceding parable of the mustard seed, it was a positive message and spoke (in all likelihood) about the spread of Christ's kingdom gradually and at first imperceptibly in our hearts and lives until every aspect of them is touched by His grace. While we didn't look into the other possibility (as I see it) of the kingdom expanding and affecting the whole world (to make it similar to the mustard seed parable), I'm aware of this view too.

But one brother (a retired pastor who has recently joined us) disagreed and considered that the parable should be seen as a warning to the church of the corruption of false teaching and immorality, as leaven is always spoken of in Scripture as being one of these things (Christ's teaching elsewhere, Gal 5:9 and 1 Cor 5:6 come to mind) - yet it is the leaven itself that is compared to the kingdom of God - if it is false teaching, then surely the meal into which the leaven was put would be the kingdom of God, which was corrupted by false teaching/immorality?

Looking at the 1 Cor 5 passage, is there any significance in Paul saying that we should not replace the "old leaven" with the "new leaven" of grace
but that we should be UNLEAVENED!

One of the commentaries I looked at said that goats, birds, serpents and thieves represent both good and bad things in Scripture - and this was the one occasion where leaven is described in a good light.

I'm left feeling a little uncertain about the passage - if it was indeed a warning, wouldn't the LORD have made it clearer eg "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"?

What do people think?

9Marksfan Hi

The Greek word for kingdom is basileia(S G932) and means the power, and not the kingdom itself.

Therefore there is a growth of power, as we see the mustard seed turn into a great tree, and the leaven makes the bread rise.

Does it reflect the growth of the kingdom, as souls are saved?

terrell

9Marksfan
Jan 17th 2008, 02:27 PM
Dear 9Markfan,

Hi!

IMHO what I understand to have been the majority view in your bible study -- that Jesus is comparing the leaven itself to the Kingdom of God, and thus making the action of leaven in meal an analogy to how the KoG works -- is entirely correct.

There are several reasons for this, and several reasons why I find the argument that "leaven" here represents corruption unconvincing. First, as you rightly state, Jesus says "the kingdom of God ... is like leaven, which a woman took." Thus, without some strong counter-indication, the natural reading is that Jesus is analogizing the KoG to leaven, and that the leaven is a good thing. Second, both in Luke and in the parallel passage in Matthew (13:33), this parable is -- as you again rightly point out -- twinned with a parable in which Jesus compares the KoG with a mustard seed which, though tiny, becomes the greatest of shrubs, offering a place to build nests. Third, this latter comparison, incidentally, evokes Jesus' use of the term mustard seed (at Matt 17:20) to speak of how faith -- even the tinyest amount -- can have earthshaking results. Fourth, in Matthew, these parables are presented together with the parable "the Sower" which again emphasizes seed as something that brings forth abundant growth for God's kingdom.

The interpretation you give, of gradual and at first imperceptible increase, in our hearts in the world, again seems to me to be a natural reading, and probably the primary emphasis, of the text. However, I think there might be some other elements there as well. The KoG in this saying is, both in Luke and Matthew, like leaven which a woman "took and hid" in meal. The element of hiddenness, here, seems to me to be an overtone of the parable, picked up in Matthew both in the later parable of the treasure in the field and in the hiddenness implied in the secret of the kingdom (vv. 11-17) in Jesus' discussion, quoting Isaiah 6, of the parable of the Sower, preceding.

In general, I think that the words of Scripture (with the events and images which those words present to us) are deep, alive and active (like leaven!): meant to keep working in our hearts as we ponder them. Thus, I think many sayings of Jesus are multi-layered. There are many important things he's saying in his parables, and part of the point of teaching in parables is to get us to keep pondering and applying the parables. (This argument I just presented must not be confused with the false idea, which I would emphatically reject, that the Scriptures are unclear, up for grabs, or to be interpreted any old way one chooses. They are clear, but also lively, and keep challenging and teaching us in new ways.)

Such an understanding is related to a broad understanding of the way Scripture flexibly and powerfully uses symbolic language to maximum effect, to evoke, form the patterns of our thinking, represent, compare, and so on.

While it is the case that there are some tendencies for a book, passage, or larger contexts of scripture to use particular images in consistent ways, the Scriptures are not a coded message, IMO, which is to be "decoded" mechanically with some key or codebook. The idea that leaven (yeast) always represents something evil relies upon something like that kind of codebook approach, IMO. Stars are always this, brass is always that, trees are always such and such, birds are always thus and so. I see no basis in Scripture for assuming that kind of approach.

The idea that "leaven" or yeast in Scripture is always bad also seems to me to be an artifact of today's grocery-store living. For bread-eating cultures -- all of them up until recently -- which were not as rich and technological and removed from agricultural life as ours now is, leaven, yeast, was an obvious, natural part of life and of bread-making. People generally made their own bread rather than buying it at stores, and everyone understood that leaven and the rising of dough, and so on, was a part of life. One might as well have said that "the sun" or "the earth" or "vines" represented evil. It would have been a silly and inflexible way of using life experience that had many connotations and meanings as a kind of code.

FWIW

Blessings,
Scruff

Thanks, Scruff - excellent points!

One other thing - the retired pastor said that there was something sinister in the woman "hiding" yeast in the meal - and that this was definitely something that would NOT have been done in Jewish culture - is the fact that it's "meal" and not "flour" significant? Are they different substances?

9Marksfan
Jan 17th 2008, 02:35 PM
9Marksfan Hi

The Greek word for kingdom is basileia(S G932) and means the power, and not the kingdom itself.

Therefore there is a growth of power, as we see the mustard seed turn into a great tree, and the leaven makes the bread rise.

Does it reflect the growth of the kingdom, as souls are saved?

terrell

Numerically, yes, I think that it what the mustard seed parable is about. But I think the leaven parable is about organic growth within the life of the believer.

RogerW
Jan 17th 2008, 04:18 PM
"And again He said, “To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Lk 13:20-21 NKJV

We were looking at this passage in our bible study last night and there was some friendly disagreement over what this parable meant. Most of us considered that, as with the preceding parable of the mustard seed, it was a positive message and spoke (in all likelihood) about the spread of Christ's kingdom gradually and at first imperceptibly in our hearts and lives until every aspect of them is touched by His grace. While we didn't look into the other possibility (as I see it) of the kingdom expanding and affecting the whole world (to make it similar to the mustard seed parable), I'm aware of this view too.

But one brother (a retired pastor who has recently joined us) disagreed and considered that the parable should be seen as a warning to the church of the corruption of false teaching and immorality, as leaven is always spoken of in Scripture as being one of these things (Christ's teaching elsewhere, Gal 5:9 and 1 Cor 5:6 come to mind) - yet it is the leaven itself that is compared to the kingdom of God - if it is false teaching, then surely the meal into which the leaven was put would be the kingdom of God, which was corrupted by false teaching/immorality?

Looking at the 1 Cor 5 passage, is there any significance in Paul saying that we should not replace the "old leaven" with the "new leaven" of grace
but that we should be UNLEAVENED!

One of the commentaries I looked at said that goats, birds, serpents and thieves represent both good and bad things in Scripture - and this was the one occasion where leaven is described in a good light.

I'm left feeling a little uncertain about the passage - if it was indeed a warning, wouldn't the LORD have made it clearer eg "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"?

What do people think?

Hi Nigel,

Some time ago this topic was discussed in another community forum. My search of this subject leads me to agree with the retired pastor, who says it is a warning to the church to be aware of corruption through false teaching and immorality coming in. False doctrine and immorality can utterly destroy a covenant body.

One thing that helped to clarify the leaven is understanding the kingdom of God Christ is referencing.

When Christ speaks of the kingdom He is not always referring to the eternal dwelling place of God. The kingdom is also referenced as being with us, even within us now, in an earthly sense. Christ ushered in the kingdom by His death and resurrection on the cross. The Messianic Kingdom will be made manifest through the Church. This is why the church universal is said to be the representation of the Kingdom on earth. It is in this earthly assembling of the “called out ones” where we find not only the eternally elect of God, but also the leaven, the evil, the tares, the bad, and the foolish, both the Christians, and antichrists.

If reference to the kingdom always means the heavenly abode, would some of the elect entering into the kingdom be called the least, while others are called great?

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How could these be called children of the kingdom (heavenly abode) and then be cast out? What kingdom are they cast out of, could it be heaven?
Mt 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Can violent men take the kingdom, the heavenly abode by force? What kingdom of heaven is this that suffers violence, and is taken by force?

Mt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

After having cast out a devil, Jesus tells us the kingdom of God is come. This is not the kingdom which will come down out of heaven, so what kingdom of God is Jesus talking about?

Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Nothing offensive can enter into the kingdom which is in heaven, so where/what is the kingdom where the Son of man shall send His angels to gather out things that offend?

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Christ tells us the kingdom of God is within us, but He also tells us the kingdom is not of this world. How can the kingdom be within us, and yet be not of this world?

Lu 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I'm breaking this down into more easily digestible posts, hoping not to overwhelm you.

to be continued

RogerW
Jan 17th 2008, 04:20 PM
Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

A woman hides leaven (false doctrine, malice, wickedness, evil) in three measures of meal till the whole is leavened (false, malicious, wicked, evil).

Christ shows us a woman, calling herself a prophetess teaching in the church, and this is not good!

Re 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Re 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Re 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Re 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Christ also tells us that women are not to teach nor usurp authority over man in the church. Again this is not good.

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

If a woman is teaching men doctrine, false or true in the church then she is not obedient to the law. Neither is this a good thing.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Since this is something evil coming against the kingdom, I'm wondering if the three measures represent the three enemies that come against the child of God; the world, the flesh, and Satan? I further wonder if these three might symbolize the beast, the false prophet, and the devil? It's interesting that it is three, reminds us of the three that bear witness in heaven, and the three that bear witness on earth.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


Stands to reason why three since Satan comes as an angel of light and his ministers are transformed into ministers of righteousness.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

As far as the whole being leavened; that should not surprise us, Christ repeatedly chastens us to repent or the candlestick will be removed. (The letters to the churches)

one more post :pp

RogerW
Jan 17th 2008, 04:22 PM
Here in Luke 12 Christ says the leaven of the Pharisees is hypocrisy.

Lu 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

If leaven represents the TRUTH of Jesus Christ why was it hidden? Is it a good thing that the TRUTH is hidden in the church?

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Here in 1 Co 5 the leaven is referred to as malice and wickedness.

1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Here in Galatians 5 Paul likens leaven to those who hinder us not to obey the truth.

Ga 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Ga 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Ga 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Then we have this verse which likens the leaven to doctrine. But this is not just any doctrine, nor is it true doctrine it is likened to, it is the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

I’ve searched every New Testament usage for the word “leaven” and while I believe that this leaven does demonstrate the effect it has on the covenant church, nowhere do I find that leaven is ever referred to as anything but evil.

In conclusion, I absolutley agree with the retired pastor, and believe we (every congregation) would do well to guard against leaven entering in.

Many Blessings,
RW

9Marksfan
Jan 17th 2008, 04:39 PM
Wow! Thanks so much for your very full post, Roger - I totally agree with your doctrine here and that of the retired pastor's - it was just that I didn't think that was "the truth of the text" - I'm still to be convinced, given the language our Lord uses - it would imply that the leaven is the kingdom - but I'm keeping an open mind!

I am beginning to wonder if your interpretation may be correct - and that there is a warning that is perhaps tied to the next passage in Luke, where Christ warns his disciples to "Strive to enter the kingdom" (there's an interesting side issue from that, a propos RbG's Free will and Does obedience save? threads, but perhaps another thread will be needed for that particular point!) - so it's in the context of struggle (with false doctrine?), effort and hardship.

Also, we were wondering what the "birds" referred to in the mustard seed parable nesting in the tree could mean - another warning? And in particular as the Parable of the Sower is next to it in Matthew, what do the birds in that parable signify?!?

This really is an amazing discussion!

Blessings.

Nigel

Mograce2U
Jan 17th 2008, 04:51 PM
Numerically, yes, I think that it what the mustard seed parable is about. But I think the leaven parable is about organic growth within the life of the believer.The mustard seed parable has a negative connotation to it too with those fowls of the air that lodge in its branches. Which could be a symbolic reference to demons - especially doctrines of demons. In the parable of the sower, it is the fowls of the air that snatch the word of God that falls by the wayside.

9Marksfan
Jan 17th 2008, 04:58 PM
The mustard seed parable has a negative connotation to it too with those fowls of the air that lodge in its branches. Which could be a symbolic reference to demons - especially doctrines of demons. In the parable of the sower, it is the fowls of the air that snatch the word of God that falls by the wayside.

Exactly the point I was driving at in my last post! And of course, these three parables are bunched together in Matthew, which makes that interpretation all the more likely!

Mograce2U
Jan 17th 2008, 05:02 PM
Exactly the point I was driving at in my last post! And of course, these three parables are bunched together in Matthew, which makes that interpretation all the more likely!And how interesting that we were both posting at the same time!

9Marksfan
Jan 17th 2008, 05:12 PM
And how interesting that we were both posting at the same time!

Even better! I wondered if you hadn't read my post before you put yours on! This is fascinating!

specks
Jan 17th 2008, 05:31 PM
This is all really interesting. I read Luke last month and took this parable to be the positive meaning mentioned in the original post. I never would have thought about the leavening being a negative thing if not for this thread.

I have one commentary that says basically the same as what the retired pastor was saying. It also refers to the birds on the mustard tree as being something evil.

The version I was reading did not use the word "hid" or I might have thought about it differently, though maybe not. I guess "hid" could be good as in when we "hide the word in our heart" or it could be negative if it's to keep something deceitful or negative out of sight.

ProjectPeter
Jan 17th 2008, 05:56 PM
Folks need to look carefully and they can see it ain't all so positive. ;) I agree with the preacher dude and Roger (don't be scared Roger! Has to happen now and again! :lol:).

Here is what was happening.

Luke 13:15 But the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall, and lead him away to water him?
16 "And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?"
17 And as He said this, all His opponents were being humiliated; and the entire multitude was rejoicing over all the glorious things being done by Him.

Now it goes on.

Luke 13:18 ¶Therefore He was saying, "What is the kingdom of God like, and to what shall I compare it?
19 "It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and threw into his own garden; and it grew and became a tree; and THE BIRDS OF THE AIR NESTED IN ITS BRANCHES."
20 ¶And again He said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God?
21 "It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened."

He said this BECAUSE of what was going on previously.

Then look at the text after... same theme Luke was writing about.

Luke 13:22 ¶And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem.
23 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, `Lord, open up to us!´ then He will answer and say to you, `I do not know where you are from.´
26 "Then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets´;
27 and He will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.´
28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out.
29 "And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God.
30 "And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."


The leaven was in His presence... the birds were too. Folks seek to enter... in many ways. Be it bird or leaven.

It's a warning. :)

Mograce2U
Jan 17th 2008, 07:07 PM
Ken,
I think sometimes we forget that Jesus was testifiying to both the angelic and human realms - thanks for putting that together.

matthew94
Jan 17th 2008, 07:23 PM
I used to interpret it negatively b/c that's what I was first taught. But when I read it and studied both views, I came to the conclusion that the positive interpretation held up better to scrutiny. Just my opinion.

ProjectPeter
Jan 17th 2008, 07:31 PM
I used to interpret it negatively b/c that's what I was first taught. But when I read it and studied both views, I came to the conclusion that the positive interpretation held up better to scrutiny. Just my opinion.
I was always taught it positive but then contextually... didn't see it fitting. Example... The therefore... what is it there for? When you look before that and see what Jesus was speaking of... just makes sense that it was a warning although warning might be a bit strong. More like a reality. Wheat with the chaff... goats and sheep... leaven and flour. The good with the bad. It's a reality in the kingdom among us.

9Marksfan
Jan 17th 2008, 07:39 PM
Folks need to look carefully and they can see it ain't all so positive. ;) I agree with the preacher dude and Roger (don't be scared Roger! Has to happen now and again! :lol:).

Here is what was happening.

Luke 13:15 But the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall, and lead him away to water him?
16 "And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?"
17 And as He said this, all His opponents were being humiliated; and the entire multitude was rejoicing over all the glorious things being done by Him.

Now it goes on.

Luke 13:18 ¶Therefore He was saying, "What is the kingdom of God like, and to what shall I compare it?
19 "It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and threw into his own garden; and it grew and became a tree; and THE BIRDS OF THE AIR NESTED IN ITS BRANCHES."
20 ¶And again He said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God?
21 "It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened."

He said this BECAUSE of what was going on previously.

Then look at the text after... same theme Luke was writing about.

Luke 13:22 ¶And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem.
23 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, `Lord, open up to us!´ then He will answer and say to you, `I do not know where you are from.´
26 "Then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets´;
27 and He will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.´
28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out.
29 "And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God.
30 "And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."


The leaven was in His presence... the birds were too. Folks seek to enter... in many ways. Be it bird or leaven.

It's a warning. :)

Ken, if you think it's scary that you're agreeing with Roger(or vice versa!) - THIS is even scarier! I think you're 100% right here - and I'm gonna REP you for it! BRILLIANT exegesis! It is indeed the "Therefore" that is the key - fabulous (and - you'll maybe not be surprised to hear - but the retired pastor dude is from you "camp" - an AoG pastor in the US for over 20 years! He's got some pretty weird ideas, but on this occasion I think he's spot on!

I think this is the first time the Forum has actually persuaded me to change my views on a text! :o:o:o

ProjectPeter
Jan 17th 2008, 07:54 PM
There are times when the writers seem to just go from one place to another without fair warning. But those therefore's help us out.

Keep in mind too, especially when reading Luke. He wrote his a bit different than the others. When he writes... he seems to bunch his text up in themes in keeping with a certain point. Remember... he is writing Theophilos, and not just writing things down for recording sake. He tends to keep on points throughout his writing because it is focused on those points. Perhaps from conversation that he had with Theophilos... he is searching the facts of things. In short... he tends to NOT wonder from point to point. :lol:

Mograce2U
Jan 17th 2008, 08:24 PM
There are times when the writers seem to just go from one place to another without fair warning. But those therefore's help us out.

Keep in mind too, especially when reading Luke. He wrote his a bit different than the others. When he writes... he seems to bunch his text up in themes in keeping with a certain point. Remember... he is writing Theophilos, and not just writing things down for recording sake. He tends to keep on points throughout his writing because it is focused on those points. Perhaps from conversation that he had with Theophilos... he is searching the facts of things. In short... he tends to NOT wonder from point to point. :lol:
I noticed that Luke presented the passage in a different order than Matthew. Luke 12 makes the statement first that the leaven of the Pharisee's is hypocrisy - which defines it in the context he used later in ch 13. Small observations add up!

Brother Mark
Jan 17th 2008, 08:53 PM
That's a passage I have wrestled with before. I have a couple of thoughts about it but I am not positive. 1 thought... just as the birds of the air find shade in the tree, so also does leaven find a place in the kingdom. What breaks down with me on that one, is that the birds never took over the tree but the leaven leavens the entire three loaves completely.

2...leaven can be a belief system. Scripture mentions the leaven of the pharisees, the leaven of Herod, and the leaven of the kingdom. So we know there is a religious kingdom (Pharisees and Saducees), a political kingdom (Herod), and a spiritual Kingdom (Jesus). Which one are we going to be in? In Jesus kingdom, it starts out small but it grows until it fills the whole earth.

I think both are worth considering.

Blessings,

Mark

AliveinChristDave
Jan 17th 2008, 09:30 PM
OT Saints were never allowed to put leaven in their offerings.
Neither honey.
Both are good types of the works of evil works and evil workers.
The Kingdom of heaven (meaning the kingdom that is within us) begins small, like a mustard seed but it's growth is abnormal because leaven is allowed to enter in. The growth is abnormally large because Christ said Few will enter in.
The birds represent demons that inhabit false prophets who we're warned about in many places. They land in the branches of those who have taken the wide road and from that pearch preach there false message that will be heard by those who have entered into the broad way.
Leaven is the sin committed by the called. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
The kingdom of heaven is full of leaven now but God is calling out his chosen from the called who will stand before Him as overcomers.

Brother Mark
Jan 17th 2008, 09:36 PM
OT Saints were never allowed to put leaven in their offerings.
Neither honey.
Both are good types of the works of evil works and evil workers.
The Kingdom of heaven (meaning the kingdom that is within us) begins small, like a mustard seed but it's growth is abnormal because leaven is allowed to enter in. The growth is abnormally large because Christ said Few will enter in.
The birds represent demons that inhabit false prophets who we're warned about in many places. They land in the branches of those who have taken the wide road and from that pearch preach there false message that will be heard by those who have entered into the broad way.
Leaven is the sin committed by the called. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
The kingdom of heaven is full of leaven now but God is calling out his chosen from the called who will stand before Him as overcomers.

Are you sure the branches the birds are in are NOT part of the kingdom? It seems to me that the birds are finding rest in the kingdom itself. :hmm:

SIG
Jan 17th 2008, 09:40 PM
While some symbols seem to represent both positive and negative, some seem consistent. (Where in Scripture, by the way, is a snake seen as positive?) Leaven is hugely important in the OT in regards to the Passover. And when Christ identified the bread with His body, it was unleavened (sinless) bread.

There is an interpretation of the seven Kingdom parables which compares them to the seven letters to the churches in Revelation. If this holds true, the leaven parable refers to Thyatira (Catholic Church), where false doctrine enters in in a sanctioned way, and there is mention again of a woman (this has been cited earlier in this thread).

In this model, the Kingdom of God describes Church history, from the Resurrection to the Second Coming. Google "Kingdom Parables and seven Letters of Revelation" or such and you'll find this teaching.

I believe there is compelling evidence for this model--though I don't take a hard line on it. But I DO see leaven as a consistently negative symbol.

Brother Mark
Jan 17th 2008, 09:46 PM
(Where in Scripture, by the way, is a snake seen as positive?)

Jesus said "as the serpent in the wilderness was lifted up, so must the son of man be lifted up". He became sin that we might be made the righteousness of God. In this sense, it was a positive occurance.

Overall, I do agree. It is very hard to find anywhere in scripture that leaven is positive. But how do we deal with the remnant? Does God not always keep to himself a remnant? Are they leavened as well?

SIG
Jan 17th 2008, 09:48 PM
According to the above model, the mustard tree coincides with the letter to Pergamum (which means "mixed marriage"). This describes a period (before Constantine) when pagan practice mixed into Christian doctrine.

Supposedly, a mustard seed was meant to produce a much smaller plant than a tree. So, this tree was a freak, big enough for birds (demons) to nest in.

SIG
Jan 17th 2008, 09:54 PM
Jesus said "as the serpent in the wilderness was lifted up, so must the son of man be lifted up". He became sin that we might be made the righteousness of God. In this sense, it was a positive occurance.

Overall, I do agree. It is very hard to find anywhere in scripture that leaven is positive. But how do we deal with the remnant? Does God not always keep to himself a remnant? Are they leavened as well?

The bronze serpent was a picture of sin being judged on the cross. It was certainly positive that Christ consented to become sin for us--but sin itself is neither a positive symbol nor a positive thing.

The faithful remnant conditionally has a sin nature, and could therefore be seen to contain leaven. But positionally we are in Christ, and are leaven-free, as He is.

We are matzoh ;).

tgallison
Jan 17th 2008, 10:33 PM
"And again He said, “To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Lk 13:20-21 NKJV

We were looking at this passage in our bible study last night and there was some friendly disagreement over what this parable meant. Most of us considered that, as with the preceding parable of the mustard seed, it was a positive message and spoke (in all likelihood) about the spread of Christ's kingdom gradually and at first imperceptibly in our hearts and lives until every aspect of them is touched by His grace. While we didn't look into the other possibility (as I see it) of the kingdom expanding and affecting the whole world (to make it similar to the mustard seed parable), I'm aware of this view too.

But one brother (a retired pastor who has recently joined us) disagreed and considered that the parable should be seen as a warning to the church of the corruption of false teaching and immorality, as leaven is always spoken of in Scripture as being one of these things (Christ's teaching elsewhere, Gal 5:9 and 1 Cor 5:6 come to mind) - yet it is the leaven itself that is compared to the kingdom of God - if it is false teaching, then surely the meal into which the leaven was put would be the kingdom of God, which was corrupted by false teaching/immorality?

Looking at the 1 Cor 5 passage, is there any significance in Paul saying that we should not replace the "old leaven" with the "new leaven" of grace
but that we should be UNLEAVENED!

One of the commentaries I looked at said that goats, birds, serpents and thieves represent both good and bad things in Scripture - and this was the one occasion where leaven is described in a good light.

I'm left feeling a little uncertain about the passage - if it was indeed a warning, wouldn't the LORD have made it clearer eg "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"?

What do people think?

9Marksfan Hi

Very interesting and informative topic, thank you for posting it.

terrell

AliveinChristDave
Jan 17th 2008, 11:18 PM
Are you sure the branches the birds are in are NOT part of the kingdom? It seems to me that the birds are finding rest in the kingdom itself. :hmm:

Of course the branches are part of the kingdom. Even evil workers who preach the doctrine of demons are part of the kingdom.
There are two roads in the kingdom. The narrow that leads to life and the broad that leads to destruction.
By destruction I believe the word teaches they are those who get destroyed so that the body can be saved.
They don't go to hell. They just never receive full reward when the books of life are opened which we are judged from.

Brother Mark
Jan 17th 2008, 11:41 PM
Of course the branches are part of the kingdom. Even evil workers who preach the doctrine of demons are part of the kingdom.
There are two roads in the kingdom. The narrow that leads to life and the broad that leads to destruction.
By destruction I believe the word teaches they are those who get destroyed so that the body can be saved.
They don't go to hell. They just never receive full reward when the books of life are opened which we are judged from.

I think you might be on to something. There is a difference between the kingdom and heaven. Interesting.

AliveinChristDave
Jan 18th 2008, 01:59 AM
I think you might be on to something. There is a difference between the kingdom and heaven. Interesting.

I've been teaching this for over 30 years.
Lord willing, I'm on to something.

AliveinChristDave
Jan 18th 2008, 03:01 AM
I think you might be on to something. There is a difference between the kingdom and heaven. Interesting.

Heaven, as we call it, is just a continuation of where we are now only on the new earth.
If we've been faithful here, we will be rewarded there The exact opposite is true if we are unfaithful. That's what Revelation 20-22 is all about.

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2008, 01:12 PM
I'll pipe in with this. While there is much mystery in Scripture... no doubt... it becomes easy to over-spiritualize something. In doing that... we often miss the point of what the parables are actually telling us.

I'm not willing to try and make the birds into demons and all of that because frankly... the text itself really doesn't allow for all that.

Look at when Mark writes this.

Mark 4:26 ¶And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil;
27 and goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts up and grows -- how, he himself does not know.
28 "The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.
29 "But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come."
30 ¶And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it?
31 "It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil,
32 yet when it is sown, grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches; so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR can NEST UNDER ITS SHADE."

Then Matthew.

Matthew 13:24 ¶He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 "But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away.
26 "But when the wheat sprang up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27 "And the slaves of the landowner came and said to him, `Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?´
28 "And he said to them, `An enemy has done this!´ And the slaves said to him, `Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?´
29 "But he said, `No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them.
30 `Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."´"
31 ¶He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field;
32 and this is smaller than all other seeds; but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants, and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES."
33 ¶He spoke another parable to them, "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened."


It is simply telling us the same here.... among the kingdom here on earth... there will be wheat and tares in the same field until the harvesters come at the end of the age and separate them. When we start making birds demons and whatnot... I think we go much further than the passage intends.

Think of the birds as what birds do when perched in a tree. They are simply onlookers. They are part of the tree... they will nest in the tree. They may rarely ever leave that tree. But when it comes to the tree... they are simply onlookers attached to the tree. They are not a branch... leaf... or fruit. Simply part of the tree by virtue of hanging out in the tree. I believe that this is the simple point that parable is teaching us.

9Marksfan
Jan 18th 2008, 01:32 PM
I'll pipe in with this. While there is much mystery in Scripture... no doubt... it becomes easy to over-spiritualize something. In doing that... we often miss the point of what the parables are actually telling us.

I'm not willing to try and make the birds into demons and all of that because frankly... the text itself really doesn't allow for all that.

Look at when Mark writes this.

Mark 4:26 ¶And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil;
27 and goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts up and grows -- how, he himself does not know.
28 "The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.
29 "But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come."
30 ¶And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it?
31 "It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil,
32 yet when it is sown, grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches; so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR can NEST UNDER ITS SHADE."

Then Matthew.

Matthew 13:24 ¶He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 "But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away.
26 "But when the wheat sprang up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27 "And the slaves of the landowner came and said to him, `Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?´
28 "And he said to them, `An enemy has done this!´ And the slaves said to him, `Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?´
29 "But he said, `No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them.
30 `Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."´"
31 ¶He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field;
32 and this is smaller than all other seeds; but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants, and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES."
33 ¶He spoke another parable to them, "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened."


It is simply telling us the same here.... among the kingdom here on earth... there will be wheat and tares in the same field until the harvesters come at the end of the age and separate them. When we start making birds demons and whatnot... I think we go much further than the passage intends.

Think of the birds as what birds do when perched in a tree. They are simply onlookers. They are part of the tree... they will nest in the tree. They may rarely ever leave that tree. But when it comes to the tree... they are simply onlookers attached to the tree. They are not a branch... leaf... or fruit. Simply part of the tree by virtue of hanging out in the tree. I believe that this is the simple point that parable is teaching us.

Ken, I can't believe this is really you saying this! Amen brother!!!!

9Marksfan
Jan 18th 2008, 01:33 PM
9Marksfan Hi

Very interesting and informative topic, thank you for posting it.

terrell

A pleasure, terrell - had no idea it would generate so much interest!

Nigel

9Marksfan
Jan 18th 2008, 01:46 PM
OT Saints were never allowed to put leaven in their offerings.
Neither honey.
Both are good types of the works of evil works and evil workers.

With you so far.


The Kingdom of heaven (meaning the kingdom that is within us)

Why restrict it to that? Surely the spread/success of the gospel is the spread of the kingdom too? Doesn't it mean, put simply, where Christ is acknowledged as King?


begins small, like a mustard seed but it's growth is abnormal because leaven is allowed to enter in. The growth is abnormally large because Christ said Few will enter in.

Huh?!?! Don't see how that makes sense - what does abnormal growrth have to do with "bad" leaven entering in? And doesn't the fact that Christ says "few" will enter in contradict that?


The birds represent demons that inhabit false prophets who we're warned about in many places. They land in the branches of those who have taken the wide road and from that pearch preach there false message that will be heard by those who have entered into the broad way.

But, as Ken says, does the text really allow for quite such a detailed interpretation?


Leaven is the sin committed by the called. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Not always taught as such - in fact, if anything, it is the false teachers that practise/teach it, as already spoken of by Jesus.


The kingdom of heaven is full of leaven now but God is calling out his chosen from the called who will stand before Him as overcomers.

There is no distinction between THE chosen and THE called in Scripture - there are many who are "called" (past participle of the verb) but few who are chosen (ie THE chosen, THE called in Rom 8:28ff - there is both an external and an internal call of the gospel - those who respond to the internal call show themselves to be THE called and THE chosen (and THE faithful too!)).

Where I will agree with you is that God is calling His true people in the visible kingdom of God (this side of eternity) to be faithful and to "remove the leaven from among them" - ie false teaching/sinful practices.

9Marksfan
Jan 18th 2008, 01:48 PM
Heaven, as we call it, is just a continuation of where we are now only on the new earth.

Ultimately, yes - but don't you believe in an intermediate state? Isn't there a Heaven we go to now, populated by angels and the "spirits of just men made perfect"?


If we've been faithful here, we will be rewarded there The exact opposite is true if we are unfaithful. That's what Revelation 20-22 is all about.

Amen.

jeffreys
Jan 18th 2008, 02:03 PM
"And again He said, “To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Lk 13:20-21 NKJV

We were looking at this passage in our bible study last night and there was some friendly disagreement over what this parable meant. Most of us considered that, as with the preceding parable of the mustard seed, it was a positive message and spoke (in all likelihood) about the spread of Christ's kingdom gradually and at first imperceptibly in our hearts and lives until every aspect of them is touched by His grace. While we didn't look into the other possibility (as I see it) of the kingdom expanding and affecting the whole world (to make it similar to the mustard seed parable), I'm aware of this view too.

But one brother (a retired pastor who has recently joined us) disagreed and considered that the parable should be seen as a warning to the church of the corruption of false teaching and immorality, as leaven is always spoken of in Scripture as being one of these things (Christ's teaching elsewhere, Gal 5:9 and 1 Cor 5:6 come to mind) - yet it is the leaven itself that is compared to the kingdom of God - if it is false teaching, then surely the meal into which the leaven was put would be the kingdom of God, which was corrupted by false teaching/immorality?

Looking at the 1 Cor 5 passage, is there any significance in Paul saying that we should not replace the "old leaven" with the "new leaven" of grace
but that we should be UNLEAVENED!

One of the commentaries I looked at said that goats, birds, serpents and thieves represent both good and bad things in Scripture - and this was the one occasion where leaven is described in a good light.

I'm left feeling a little uncertain about the passage - if it was indeed a warning, wouldn't the LORD have made it clearer eg "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"?

What do people think?

I hate to admit it Nigel, but I'm going to have to side with you on this one! :lol:

It seems to me that Jesus is speaking of the nature of both the mustard seed and yeast. Both are very small, but eventually produce something very big. And, especially in the case of yeast, the work is done "from the inside out".

The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come with an army, wipe out foreign oppressors, and institute a government like that of King David - only better. But the real Messiah - Jesus - would not come in military fashion and bring sweeping change. He would come in such a way that the real change He brings will be from the inside out.

Brother Mark
Jan 18th 2008, 02:14 PM
I'm not willing to try and make the birds into demons and all of that because frankly... the text itself really doesn't allow for all that. ...

...Think of the birds as what birds do when perched in a tree. They are simply onlookers. They are part of the tree... they will nest in the tree. They may rarely ever leave that tree. But when it comes to the tree... they are simply onlookers attached to the tree. They are not a branch... leaf... or fruit. Simply part of the tree by virtue of hanging out in the tree. I believe that this is the simple point that parable is teaching us.


Perhaps. But Matthew 13 and Mark 4 both speak of birds as devils. Then a few verses later, speak of them in trees as finding a haven there.

Matt 13:3-4

3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
...
Matt 13:18-19

18 " Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
...

It is the birds that snatch away the sowing of the word.

Then, in a later parable in the same chapter or sermon...
Matt 13:31-32

31 He presented another parable to them, saying, " The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32 and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES."
NASU

(The caps were in the text of the bible I copied. I did not put them in for emphasis.)

What are the birds doing? Probably looking for seed that is being sown they can pluck out of the hearer. But it is interesting they were able to nest there. Ole Neb in the OT had the same problem and God cut that tree down. To me, I think it simply means that doctrines of demons get taught, and that is why they can nest. When their doctrines aren't taught, they look to snatch up the seed that is sown. Might be a little more in there somewhere.

Worth thinking about anyway.

AliveinChristDave
Jan 18th 2008, 03:12 PM
Nosing in again---
Pigeons and doves are the only clean birds. Any other bird is unclean. I believe Christ was speaking about unclean birds in this scripture. Vultures, eagles and crows and such who feast off dead bodies (asleep believers) the young and helpless and freshly planted seeds.
The Scriptures very pointedly teach us about evil workers and false teachers who are one in the same.
The message that comes from these people are teachings (doctrines) of demons.
From my discernment I see that today most of the teachings that come from far reaching branches are false.
I don't see that comparing these birds to modern day false prophets is spiritualizing at all. By the context, it's just saying what Christ was teaching in these verses
There was an abnormal growth of the mustard seed. Normally the mustard seed wouldn't produce a plant large enough for birds to lodge in. I'm basing the abnormal growth on what was told me by a friend who has a degree in horticulture who grows flowers and vegetables commercially. Great tree means just that. A big tree, not a plant. There is no small seed that will grow a great tree under normal conditions.
Put yeast in dough and the dough expands.
Yeast (leaven) is a type of sin. Put sin in the kindgdom of God and you have abnormal growth. That's just what has been happening in the past 100 years. There's your "great tree."
If we try to purge out leaven today as Paul told us too, the birds will squawk to high heaven. They don't want to lose their perches.
We have to have holy preaching that exposes the birds.
But that's not happening today for sure.
The more we weed out the false teachers preaching the false doctrines, the less tares we will have when Christ comes to judge us and this world.
I know it's not our job to pull the tares but holiness and righteousness will strangle sin if it's preached and lived by us.
The feel good (honey) and the live any way you want too (leaven) preaching we get today is doing nothing but strengthening the abnormal branches of the mustard seed.
As far as calling and chosen are concerned, Christ makes a vast difference in the two in Matthew 22:14.
I'll get off my soap box.
In Christ,
Dave

9Marksfan
Jan 18th 2008, 03:24 PM
I hate to admit it Nigel, but I'm going to have to side with you on this one! :lol:

It seems to me that Jesus is speaking of the nature of both the mustard seed and yeast. Both are very small, but eventually produce something very big. And, especially in the case of yeast, the work is done "from the inside out".

The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come with an army, wipe out foreign oppressors, and institute a government like that of King David - only better. But the real Messiah - Jesus - would not come in military fashion and bring sweeping change. He would come in such a way that the real change He brings will be from the inside out.

This thread is REALLY special! I suspect it's the ONLY one on the Forum at present where you, Ken, Roger and I are ALL in agreement!! :pp

jeffreys
Jan 18th 2008, 03:26 PM
This thread is REALLY special! I suspect it's the ONLY one on the Forum at present where you, Ken, Roger and I are ALL in agreement!! :pp

...almost certainly a sign of the End Times! :)

9Marksfan
Jan 18th 2008, 03:29 PM
Nosing in again---
Pigeons and doves are the only clean birds. Any other bird is unclean. I believe Christ was speaking about unclean birds in this scripture. Vultures, eagles and crows and such who feast off dead bodies (asleep believers) the young and helpless and freshly planted seeds.
The Scriptures very pointedly teach us about evil workers and false teachers who are one in the same.
The message that comes from these people are teachings (doctrines) of demons.
From my discernment I see that today most of the teachings that come from far reaching branches are false.
I don't see that comparing these birds to modern day false prophets is spiritualizing at all. By the context, it's just saying what Christ was teaching in these verses
There was an abnormal growth of the mustard seed. Normally the mustard seed wouldn't produce a plant large enough for birds to lodge in. I'm basing the abnormal growth on what was told me by a friend who has a degree in horticulture who grows flowers and vegetables commercially. Great tree means just that. A big tree, not a plant. There is no small seed that will grow a great tree under normal conditions.
Put yeast in dough and the dough expands.
Yeast (leaven) is a type of sin. Put sin in the kindgdom of God and you have abnormal growth. That's just what has been happening in the past 100 years. There's your "great tree."
If we try to purge out leaven today as Paul told us too, the birds will squawk to high heaven. They don't want to lose their perches.
We have to have holy preaching that exposes the birds.
But that's not happening today for sure.
The more we weed out the false teachers preaching the false doctrines, the less tares we will have when Christ comes to judge us and this world.
I know it's not our job to pull the tares but holiness and righteousness will strangle sin if it's preached and lived by us.
The feel good (honey) and the live any way you want too (leaven) preaching we get today is doing nothing but strengthening the abnormal branches of the mustard seed.

Ok - I see where you're coming from now - really great points - the megachurches (Joel Osteen et al) are basically putting honey in the bread - others are built on other false doctrine - making the churches abnormally large - wow - this thread is REALLY getting me thinking!


As far as calling and chosen are concerned, Christ makes a vast difference in the two in Matthew 22:14.

So don't you believe there is a difference between the external (Matt 22:14) call and the internal (Rom 8:28) call?


I'll get off my soap box.
In Christ,
Dave

And I'll get off mine too!

In Christ

Nigel

Mograce2U
Jan 18th 2008, 03:48 PM
Jesus ends these parables in Matthew with this instruction for His disciples:

(Mat 13:51-52 KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. {52} Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

The last parable is a summary of the others - the one about the net cast into the sea to gather up of evey kind which is then separated out to gather the good and cast the bad away. This is what the kingdom of heaven is working to do as there are only two types of seeds sown in the world and two types of children who are born by them.

This is the new thing which they are being told about as they are being sent to preach the gospel in the world about the results they can expect to see. Those who find a treasure (eternal life) in the gospel will sell all they have to attain it - these are the children of the kingdom. But the tares the enemy sows only look like them - until the time of fruit comes.

In Zec 5 wickedness is personified as a woman. The woman who hides her leaven in the meal does so because she wants to make it all leavened. The devil sows the tares in the world to infiltrate the kingdom and his devils attend to them. The 4 types of soil into which the good seed is cast have vastly different results based on their preparation to receive that word. Devils also work to snatch the good seed away from those who have no understanding.

The first parable is thus the overview of what the other parables are all about. How to discern who is who in the kingdom as it spreads into the world. The good seed brings forth fruit to everlasting life, but the world the flesh and the devil make the tares fruitless.

9Marksfan
Jan 18th 2008, 05:14 PM
...almost certainly a sign of the End Times! :)

:lol::lol::lol:

9Marksfan
Jan 18th 2008, 05:18 PM
In Zec 5 wickedness is personified as a woman. The woman who hides her leaven in the meal does so because she wants to make it all leavened. The devil sows the tares in the world to infiltrate the kingdom and his devils attend to them. The 4 types of soil into which the good seed is cast have vastly different results based on their preparation to receive that word. Devils also work to snatch the good seed away from those who have no understanding.

The first parable is thus the overview of what the other parables are all about. How to discern who is who in the kingdom as it spreads into the world. The good seed brings forth fruit to everlasting life, but the world the flesh and the devil make the tares fruitless.

These are really excellent - can you (and others) expand on what you see the three batches of meal as representing?

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2008, 06:04 PM
Nosing in again---
Pigeons and doves are the only clean birds. Any other bird is unclean. I believe Christ was speaking about unclean birds in this scripture. Vultures, eagles and crows and such who feast off dead bodies (asleep believers) the young and helpless and freshly planted seeds.
The Scriptures very pointedly teach us about evil workers and false teachers who are one in the same.
The message that comes from these people are teachings (doctrines) of demons.
From my discernment I see that today most of the teachings that come from far reaching branches are false.
I don't see that comparing these birds to modern day false prophets is spiritualizing at all. By the context, it's just saying what Christ was teaching in these verses
There was an abnormal growth of the mustard seed. Normally the mustard seed wouldn't produce a plant large enough for birds to lodge in. I'm basing the abnormal growth on what was told me by a friend who has a degree in horticulture who grows flowers and vegetables commercially. Great tree means just that. A big tree, not a plant. There is no small seed that will grow a great tree under normal conditions.
Put yeast in dough and the dough expands.
Yeast (leaven) is a type of sin. Put sin in the kindgdom of God and you have abnormal growth. That's just what has been happening in the past 100 years. There's your "great tree."
If we try to purge out leaven today as Paul told us too, the birds will squawk to high heaven. They don't want to lose their perches.
We have to have holy preaching that exposes the birds.
But that's not happening today for sure.
The more we weed out the false teachers preaching the false doctrines, the less tares we will have when Christ comes to judge us and this world.
I know it's not our job to pull the tares but holiness and righteousness will strangle sin if it's preached and lived by us.
The feel good (honey) and the live any way you want too (leaven) preaching we get today is doing nothing but strengthening the abnormal branches of the mustard seed.
As far as calling and chosen are concerned, Christ makes a vast difference in the two in Matthew 22:14.
I'll get off my soap box.
In Christ,
DaveThe problem still with that type of expanding on the passage... we remove the false teachers in accordance to Scripture. We remove those in glaringly obvious sin... according to Scripture. However the tares... they appear from a distance to look just like the wheat and these won't be removed by us nor are we to remove them. The harvester will do that. So still not thinking we should take the text too far away from the central point.

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2008, 06:05 PM
Jesus ends these parables in Matthew with this instruction for His disciples:

(Mat 13:51-52 KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. {52} Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

The last parable is a summary of the others - the one about the net cast into the sea to gather up of evey kind which is then separated out to gather the good and cast the bad away. This is what the kingdom of heaven is working to do as there are only two types of seeds sown in the world and two types of children who are born by them.

This is the new thing which they are being told about as they are being sent to preach the gospel in the world about the results they can expect to see. Those who find a treasure (eternal life) in the gospel will sell all they have to attain it - these are the children of the kingdom. But the tares the enemy sows only look like them - until the time of fruit comes.

In Zec 5 wickedness is personified as a woman. The woman who hides her leaven in the meal does so because she wants to make it all leavened. The devil sows the tares in the world to infiltrate the kingdom and his devils attend to them. The 4 types of soil into which the good seed is cast have vastly different results based on their preparation to receive that word. Devils also work to snatch the good seed away from those who have no understanding.

The first parable is thus the overview of what the other parables are all about. How to discern who is who in the kingdom as it spreads into the world. The good seed brings forth fruit to everlasting life, but the world the flesh and the devil make the tares fruitless.Pretty much that simple.

SIG
Jan 20th 2008, 01:00 AM
This appears quite lucid--and by it I just discovered this theologian, who I will look into some more:

http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Kingdom/lindex.html

AliveinChristDave
Jan 20th 2008, 03:33 AM
Ok - I see where you're coming from now - really great points - the megachurches (Joel Osteen et al) are basically putting honey in the bread - others are built on other false doctrine - making the churches abnormally large - wow - this thread is REALLY getting me thinking!



So don't you believe there is a difference between the external (Matt 22:14) call and the internal (Rom 8:28) call?



And I'll get off mine too!

Nigel

I'm glad you're thinking. We need more of it.

Romans 8:28 We're called to be conformed to the image of Christ.
Once we're conformed, we become one of the chosen.
I don't have time to expound on this a lot but you can do a search of some of my past posts and get a general overview of what I'm saying.
God does everything in three's. I'm sure you've seen that. The Godhead is three, man is body, soul and spirit. Jesus is the Way, Truth and Life. IJohn 2 maturity is threefold. Children, fathers and young men--and on and on.
Revelation 7:14 John quotes the angel's description of those who had overcome as being called, chosen and faithful.
In Matt 22 at the marriage feast there were three classes of guest. The invited-Callled, the chosen--those who showed up and the faithful==those who had on the wedding garments.
In Matt. 23 on the wedding night there were the foolish virgins, the wise virgins and a group most of forget about--those already in the wedding feast.
In Rev. 14 there are three groups of people. Many like to say the 144,000 are the overcomers but if you read the verses one and two carefully you will see they are two completely different peoples.
The overcomers are the faithful, the ones who are part of the wedding party. (made clear in the last three chapters of Revelation that I don't have time to expound on now but study it and God will show you)
First fruits are just that. Fruit that are picked first in the harvest. Overcomers are the firstfruits of the harvest. Hand picked because of their quality. Jesus Christ is their Life. When Christ, who is our life shall appear then shall we appear with Him in glory. Col. 3:4
Next the angel in 14:15 thrusts in his sickle on the earth and reaps. These people are the chosen. Those who know Christ as the Truth.
Then in verse 18 the last angel reaps the earth and throws those reaped into the great winepress. These are those who just know Christ as the way. They will need the wrath of God to prepare them for eternity.
I'm saying all this to show you that there is more to the teachings we're getting today than just "get born again and everything will be ok."
That's the biggest lie that been sold to modern Christianity. So much of what Christ taught just blows right over our heads. I've been a believer for over 40 years and the Word still blows me out of my nest pretty regularly. Without holiness no man sees God. That's our holiness produced by a living Christ in us. Not some mystical thing that we get by osmosis. It's holiness that changes the way we live. It totally destroys the old way of thinking and living. The reality of it will rip us to shreds and leave us with nothing but Christ but when that happens you will have everything. Practical holiness qualifies us as overcomers.
Hope you understand and I hope I haven't hijacked this thread. I won't be back until Monday.
In Christ,
Dave

9Marksfan
Jan 21st 2008, 01:06 PM
I'm glad you're thinking. We need more of it.

Amen!


Romans 8:28 We're called to be conformed to the image of Christ.
Once we're conformed, we become one of the chosen.

No - we're predestined (appointed/chosen) to be conformed to the image of Christ. That's actually the starting point - then effectual calling, justification and glorification (the being conformed to Christ's image is the sanctification that takes place between justification and glorification).


I don't have time to expound on this a lot but you can do a search of some of my past posts and get a general overview of what I'm saying.
God does everything in three's. I'm sure you've seen that.

In a general sense, I agree.


The Godhead is three, man is body, soul and spirit. Jesus is the Way, Truth and Life. IJohn 2 maturity is threefold. Children, fathers and young men--and on and on.
Revelation 7:14 John quotes the angel's description of those who had overcome as being called, chosen and faithful.

Fine with you so far.


In Matt 22 at the marriage feast there were three classes of guest. The invited-Callled, the chosen--those who showed up and the faithful==those who had on the wedding garments.

No - at no point does it say that those without the garments were chosen - those who refused the invitation and those who accepted, but chose not to wear the wedding garments were both called (invited) - it is only the few who respond with the wedding garments (ie believe the biblical gospel of Christ's penal substitutionary death and imputed righteousness) that show themselves to have been "chosen".

['quote]In Matt. 23[/quote]

You mean 25, right?


on the wedding night there were the foolish virgins, the wise virgins and a group most of forget about--those already in the wedding feast.

Don't see them mentioned at all!


In Rev. 14 there are three groups of people. Many like to say the 144,000 are the overcomers but if you read the verses one and two carefully you will see they are two completely different peoples.
The overcomers are the faithful, the ones who are part of the wedding party. (made clear in the last three chapters of Revelation that I don't have time to expound on now but study it and God will show you)
First fruits are just that. Fruit that are picked first in the harvest. Overcomers are the firstfruits of the harvest. Hand picked because of their quality. Jesus Christ is their Life. When Christ, who is our life shall appear then shall we appear with Him in glory. Col. 3:4

Apart from the "completely different peoples", I'm with you so far.


Next the angel in 14:15 thrusts in his sickle on the earth and reaps. These people are the chosen.

Where do you read that?


Those who know Christ as the Truth.

Again - chapter and verse?


Then in verse 18 the last angel reaps the earth and throws those reaped into the great winepress. These are those who just know Christ as the way.

What makes you say that?


They will need the wrath of God to prepare them for eternity.

So you believe in purgatory, then?


I'm saying all this to show you that there is more to the teachings we're getting today than just "get born again and everything will be ok."

Well amen to that! I think we have even MORE of this proportionately in our "evangelical" churches in the UK than in the US! In the UK, most churches just don't see ANY kind of doctrine as in any way important but rather overly intellectual or divisive - and certainly not necessary for the average Christian! So let's just all love Jesus and our fellow man and praise the Lord!


That's the biggest lie that been sold to modern Christianity.

:agree:


So much of what Christ taught just blows right over our heads. I've been a believer for over 40 years and the Word still blows me out of my nest pretty regularly.

I've been on the road 25+ years and I hope I'm still learning too if the Lord spares me another 15 years!


Without holiness no man sees God.

Amen!


That's our holiness produced by a living Christ in us.

But if Christ produces it, isn't it His holiness?


Not some mystical thing that we get by osmosis.

Hmm - don't you believe in imputed righteousness, then?


It's holiness that changes the way we live. It totally destroys the old way of thinking and living. The reality of it will rip us to shreds and leave us with nothing but Christ but when that happens you will have everything.

Well amen to that!


Practical holiness qualifies us as overcomers.

Not sure I would use those precise words, but so long as you accept that we do not "merit" our rewards in any way through our own efforts and that any practical holiness we have comes from Christ's working in us, then another amen!


Hope you understand and I hope I haven't hijacked this thread. I won't be back until Monday.
In Christ,
Dave

Not at all - interesting points - if a little "off topic"!!!! ;)

AliveinChristDave
Jan 21st 2008, 06:34 PM
Amen!



No - we're predestined (appointed/chosen) to be conformed to the image of Christ. That's actually the starting point - then effectual calling, justification and glorification (the being conformed to Christ's image is the sanctification that takes place between justification and glorification).



In a general sense, I agree.



Fine with you so far.



No - at no point does it say that those without the garments were chosen - those who refused the invitation and those who accepted, but chose not to wear the wedding garments were both called (invited) - it is only the few who respond with the wedding garments (ie believe the biblical gospel of Christ's penal substitutionary death and imputed righteousness) that show themselves to have been "chosen".

['quote]In Matt. 23

You mean 25, right?



Don't see them mentioned at all!



Apart from the "completely different peoples", I'm with you so far.



Where do you read that?



Again - chapter and verse?



What makes you say that?



So you believe in purgatory, then?



Well amen to that! I think we have even MORE of this proportionately in our "evangelical" churches in the UK than in the US! In the UK, most churches just don't see ANY kind of doctrine as in any way important but rather overly intellectual or divisive - and certainly not necessary for the average Christian! So let's just all love Jesus and our fellow man and praise the Lord!



:agree:



I've been on the road 25+ years and I hope I'm still learning too if the Lord spares me another 15 years!



Amen!



But if Christ produces it, isn't it His holiness?



Hmm - don't you believe in imputed righteousness, then?



Well amen to that!



Not sure I would use those precise words, but so long as you accept that we do not "merit" our rewards in any way through our own efforts and that any practical holiness we have comes from Christ's working in us, then another amen!



Not at all - interesting points - if a little "off topic"!!!! ;)[/quote]


I appreciate your kind remarks.

I don't want to debate so I'm just going to sort of "generically"comment
on your remarks. I haven't mastered the ability to put things in quotations yet but I'm working on it.
I know I'm the new kid on the block too.

I know you believe in growth and maturity for us believers as I do and that understanding goes along with our maturity.

You may have more insight than I do on some things and I sense in you a desire to grow. I have no desire to win a debate. If God doesn't show someone something, I know I can't.

I have a great tendency to fire too many bullets at one time and in the process do more harm that good.

I'm praying about starting another thread that would start at the beginning of what I believe the Lord has shown me and then go on through it to the end.

Some of the things I said in my reply to you are at the ending. Line must be upon line, precept on precept and if we try to build a wall with bricks and leave out a few here and there, the wall sure isn't going to stand.

The Lord has a tendency to teach me things by taking me to the end, giving me a glimpse then letting (something I feel compelled or forced) me go back and build from the foundation until I see clearly the end as He's shown me. I hope that makes sense.

God floored me one day back in the early 80s when I was reading Revelations with the possibility that eternity wasn't going to be like I'd always been taught. I saw that there would be a judgment, unlike what I'd been taught by Pre-millenniumism and that our position or standing on the new earth would be determined by how we live now.

What I wrote was written under the presumption that is true.

Now, I had to go back and let God reprogram my understanding from scripture and as I've studied and prayed, God has pretty well shown me those truths clearly although I'm still learning.

When God began showing me this, I was a staunch, very grounded five point Calvinist. I wasn't too eager to give up what I was sure to be very Biblical truths and I've never given up them either, but God has brought me to a greater understanding of them. Some call me a Arminiam but I don't believe I am because I believe once you are a child of God you will always be a child of God. God can't deny Himself and that's what He'd have to do if He condemned one of His children.

I believe in imputed righteousness. But also, God teaches there is imparted and perfected righteousness in Romans 5 and 6. But nothing can be produced in us that isn't in Christ. When we're in Him and He is in us, we are completed and everything that emits from us is in and by and through Him.
God will judge works in and for the flesh and I'd be the first to admit that a lot if not most of what is done "in the name of God" today is nothing but flesh. Even truth spoken at the wrong time can be fleshly.

When Christ said He was the Way, Truth and Life in John 14 He was identifying Himself in three ways. One is built on the other. First we know Him or get acquainted with Him as the Way out of darkness and into light.
Then comes truth when He not only is our deliverer but our guide. He will guide us into all truth. Life is produced when we let Him guide to the point He becomes all in all and His life emits from us. I'm going to cover this when I do my post.

I hope you have a great day in the Lord,
In Christ,
Dave

9Marksfan
Jan 22nd 2008, 01:02 PM
I appreciate your kind remarks.

I don't want to debate so I'm just going to sort of "generically"comment
on your remarks. I haven't mastered the ability to put things in quotations yet but I'm working on it.
I know I'm the new kid on the block too.

No problems - to put things in quotes you put this




at the staert of the section you're quoting from and this



at the end!


I know you believe in growth and maturity for us believers as I do and that understanding goes along with our maturity.

You may have more insight than I do on some things and I sense in you a desire to grow. I have no desire to win a debate. If God doesn't show someone something, I know I can't.

I don't want just to win a debate either - my aim (as I know yours is too) is to grow - and that includes into deeper truth.


I have a great tendency to fire too many bullets at one time and in the process do more harm that good.

You too?!?! :lol:


I'm praying about starting another thread that would start at the beginning of what I believe the Lord has shown me and then go on through it to the end.

I'll be fascinated to read it - look forward to that!


Some of the things I said in my reply to you are at the ending. Line must be upon line, precept on precept and if we try to build a wall with bricks and leave out a few here and there, the wall sure isn't going to stand.

Amen - which is why a systematic theology (in principal!) is a good and desirable thing.


The Lord has a tendency to teach me things by taking me to the end, giving me a glimpse then letting (something I feel compelled or forced) me go back and build from the foundation until I see clearly the end as He's shown me. I hope that makes sense.

I think so - I had the same experience around the time I was saved in 1982 - I remember walking along the road one night and I asked the LORD about predestination (the biggest stumbling block to my conversion) - I really sensed Him say to me:-

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord..." Rev 1:8a NKJV


God floored me one day back in the early 80s when I was reading Revelations with the possibility that eternity wasn't going to be like I'd always been taught. I saw that there would be a judgment, unlike what I'd been taught by Pre-millenniumism and that our position or standing on the new earth would be determined by how we live now.

In a very real sense, I agree.


What I wrote was written under the presumption that is true.

Now, I had to go back and let God reprogram my understanding from scripture and as I've studied and prayed, God has pretty well shown me those truths clearly although I'm still learning.

When God began showing me this, I was a staunch, very grounded five point Calvinist. I wasn't too eager to give up what I was sure to be very Biblical truths and I've never given up them either, but God has brought me to a greater understanding of them.

That's great to hear, but you do seem to believe in conditional election - that God chooses us on the basis of our faithfulness to Him - am I right?


Some call me a Arminiam but I don't believe I am because I believe once you are a child of God you will always be a child of God. God can't deny Himself and that's what He'd have to do if He condemned one of His children.

Amen. I think you and I have been on a similar journey in that we have moved away from an "eternal security" position ("Preservation of the saints", if you will) to the biblical picture of perseverance of the saints - not only in faith, but in holiness and endurance of every sort - if this does not happen in someone's life, they will be lost. This comes very close to the Arminian position but the crucial difference is whether that person was truly saved in the first place. Arminians say "yes he was" but strangely don't really believe we ACTUALLY are saved/adopted/justified at all yet - we just "believe" and "hope" we are - so what has been lost?!?


I believe in imputed righteousness.

Praise the LORD!!!! :pp:pp:pp


But also, God teaches there is imparted and perfected righteousness in Romans 5 and 6.

Fine with imparted - but perfected? Do you believe we can lead a sinless life at any stage?


But nothing can be produced in us that isn't in Christ. When we're in Him and He is in us, we are completed and everything that emits from us is in and by and through Him.

But aren't we always in Him and He in us? And yet all our works, even those wrought in God, are tainted with sin?


God will judge works in and for the flesh and I'd be the first to admit that a lot if not most of what is done "in the name of God" today is nothing but flesh. Even truth spoken at the wrong time can be fleshly.

Yes, I'm coming to realise that more and more - we need to walk in the Spirit at all times.


When Christ said He was the Way, Truth and Life in John 14 He was identifying Himself in three ways. One is built on the other. First we know Him or get acquainted with Him as the Way out of darkness and into light.
Then comes truth when He not only is our deliverer but our guide. He will guide us into all truth. Life is produced when we let Him guide to the point He becomes all in all and His life emits from us.

Amen - great points!


I'm going to cover this when I do my post.

Can't wait!


I hope you have a great day in the Lord,
In Christ,
Dave

You too, Dave!

In Christ.

Nigel

specks
Jan 22nd 2008, 02:07 PM
No problems - to put things in quotes you put this

That didn't seem to work. Wonder if this will - you use
[ q u o t e ] and [ / q u o t e ]
around the text you want to quote except take out all the spaces I put in. It wouldn't display it without those.

9Marksfan
Jan 22nd 2008, 02:27 PM
That didn't seem to work.

Well I did it there just now!


Wonder if this will - you use
[ q u o t e ] and [ / q u o t e ]
around the text you want to quote except take out all the spaces I put in. It wouldn't display it without those.

And again there!

specks
Jan 22nd 2008, 02:39 PM
Well I did it there just now!

And again there!

OK, maybe it's a difference in what web browser we use. In your post where you were telling how to quote something, I don't actually see all of the instructions because it changed them into a quote.

9Marksfan
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:35 PM
OK, maybe it's a difference in what web browser we use. In your post where you were telling how to quote something, I don't actually see all of the instructions because it changed them into a quote.

Sorry - can't help more except to repeat you put
at the front and at the end!

9Marksfan
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:38 PM
Sorry - can't help more except to repeat you put at the end!

LOL!!! Just looked at that and I see what has happened! Well, it's the open square bracket box, then the word "quote" then the close square bracket box (at the front) and the same again at the end, although you add / after the open square bracket and before "quote" - hope that helps!

specks
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:39 PM
*giggle* Yeah, that's why I posted what I did in post #55.

9Marksfan
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:41 PM
*giggle* Yeah, that's why I posted what I did in post #55.

Realised that as soon as I read my own reply!