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mcgyver
Jan 18th 2008, 05:23 PM
Hypocrite: Lit "one who wears a mask"

First, this is not a "Conditional vs Eternal Security" issue...so PLEASE don't turn it into one (pretty please? :))

On another thread a question was asked..."how do we know we're saved?", and I saw some answers that basically said "you can't be certain", "You can't know for sure".

Three verses immediately came to my mind:

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:12-13 NKJV)

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36 NKJV)

and:

"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9-10 NKJV)

Now then here's the question:

Having met all the scriptural requirements for Salvation, if we can't know for sure that we're saved...Then aren't we being rank hypocrites every time we share the Gospel?

What do you think?

ravi4u2
Jan 18th 2008, 05:31 PM
Paul says, "because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ".

Whether you are a son or not, cannot be ascertained by an external 'to do list'. It is a matter of the inward. When the Spirit speaks to your hearts that you are the child of God, you simply are.

mcgyver
Jan 18th 2008, 05:48 PM
Paul says, "because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ".

Whether you are a son or not, cannot be ascertained by an external 'to do list'. It is a matter of the inward. When the Spirit speaks to your hearts that you are the child of God, you simply are.

So how can a Christian say He can't know if He's saved?

How can we tell the unsaved, how to become saved, if we're not sure ourselves?

Amazedgrace21
Jan 18th 2008, 07:21 PM
So how can a Christian say He can't know if He's saved?

How can we tell the unsaved, how to become saved, if we're not sure ourselves?

I would assume such a statment is not understood in the context it is intended.

Our status as Christians is based upon God's promises and Jesus Christ alone..every Christian would affrim this and present all the scriptural basis for that because this is our faith, our hope. It's simply not a once and done deal without a process that ends in a destination. To acknowledge that the begining of and the end destination can be one of assurance is one thing as able to be assured of being a truth we can full assurance of when we speak of our salvation..because this is all God's doing and work,yet we can not presume our roles in this have assured anything in our favor or contributed to this process.

When folks ask how we can "know" this is what would be the basis of our new birth in Christ..our 'conversion' experience as some might perceive it..

This process of salvation involves a change in us that we call conversion. Conversion is a turning around, leaving one orientation for another. It may be sudden and dramatic, or gradual and cumulative. But in any case it's a new beginning. Following Jesus' words to Nicodemus, "You must be born anew" (John 3:7 RSV), we speak of this conversion as rebirth, new life in Christ, or regeneration.

Then what happens next, is when Christians abandon all those vain attempts to justify themselves before God, to be seen as "just" in God's eyes through religious and moral practices. It's a time when God's "justifying grace" is experienced and accepted, a time of pardon and forgiveness, of new peace and joy and love, we're justified by God's grace through faith.

Presumption is understood to be a sin when it comes to this part of the process and the outward process of these visable changes are observed and the basis one presumes is what saves them and put's their assurance alone in nothing else but this IMHO> yet there is an ongoing process with a goal to be saught and reached on the part of the believer that bears testimony of their new life in Christ.

A false assurance IMHO, is the wrongful belief that there salvation is a one time event that has no part of a process of change that is ongoing in the experience of being reborn..there is no new life that bears a testimony of the birth.

The goal of the sanctified life is to be perfected in love, to experience the pure love of God and others, a holiness of heart and life, a total death to sin. We're not there yet; but by God's grace, "we're going on to perfection!"

That's a fundemental experience and truth that get's complicated when trying to explain to an unbeliever and keep it in the context of not making dangerous or assumptions of scriptural errors when they take only single verses of scripture regarding salvation and may be assuming a false basis of assurance is not one when they try to understand this entire process and experience of faith as we understand it as Christians.

As Christians we are counciled by scripture to recognize our salvation is indeed a process..being reborn is but the first stage and begining, It's to know that after feeling lost and alone, we've been found by God. It's to know that after feeling worthless, we've been redeemed.

It's to experience a reunion with God.It's a healing of the alienation—the estrangement—we've experienced. In salvation we become whole. Salvation happens to us both now and for the future. It's "eternal life," that new quality of life in unity with God of which the Gospel of John speak's, a life that begins not at death, but in the present.

IMHO, this about a believer finding the vocabulary to somehow make an accurate and coherent response to all of this and sometimes failing to recognize that unbelievers have little or no point of scriptural reference to understand what it means to say one has the assurance of their salvation in this context when they use the words of hope and faith in Christ's promises..

On one level we are trying to explain a very profound personal experience of God revealing Himself to us and providing us this gift and all of its assurances, one they do not have then on another level explaining the nature of it with the basis for it as another issue with regard to how it works itself out throughout our lives from the begining and from the eternal perspective.

Simply throwing a single scripture or a few verses at someone who has no clue how these are related or what context their relevence has is not constructive..nor is it working out our own salvation..and turning to God so that the Holy Spirit is a present active part of our growth progress that does indeed bear a testimony to others that our hope has a reality to it and one we can have an assurance in.

ravi4u2
Jan 18th 2008, 07:41 PM
So how can a Christian say He can't know if He's saved?

How can we tell the unsaved, how to become saved, if we're not sure ourselves?Francis of Assisi supposedly said, "Preach the gospel always. Use words if necessary." Light will always expel darkness and draw others to it. Just live Christ and that is the best testimony.

ProjectPeter
Jan 18th 2008, 07:52 PM
If a person thinks they possibly "are not saved" then that really is a person that is lacking in faith. Faith, by the very definition of faith, would not allow for that disbelief.

jiggyfly
Jan 19th 2008, 11:49 AM
If a person thinks they possibly "are not saved" then that really is a person that is lacking in faith. Faith, by the very definition of faith, would not allow for that disbelief.

And to add to this, Jesus said that "rivers of living water will flow out of you", Paul said , we become "new creatures". These are realities and if someone hasn't experienced them then they have not been born again. Our faith should be based on our experience with God and confirmed through the scriptures not the other way around. So in other words one should keep seeking, asking and knocking until these things are realities in their life then they won't doubt. Anyone who has ever fallen down and experienced the force of gravity does not question if it really exists or not. I don't think that many who believe they are part of Christ's body and are void of a new birth experience are hypocrites, they have been deceived by a religious system and or spirit.

ravi4u2
Jan 19th 2008, 04:13 PM
And to add to this, Jesus said that "rivers of living water will flow out of you", Paul said , we become "new creatures". These are realities and if someone hasn't experienced them then they have not been born again. Our faith should be based on our experience with God and confirmed through the scriptures not the other way around. So in other words one should keep seeking, asking and knocking until these things are realities in their life then they won't doubt. Anyone who has ever fallen down and experienced the force of gravity does not question if it really exists or not. I don't think that many who believe they are part of Christ's body and are void of a new birth experience are hypocrites, they have been deceived by a religious system and or spirit.I agree. Faith is not about memorising a certain set of words. Faith is of the inward. Jesus said, "You didn't discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven". So, real faith comes when the Father reveals His Son in our hearts. Faith is not an exercise of the intellect.

RJ Mac
Jan 19th 2008, 04:36 PM
Faith it seems it has to be more than God revealing Himself to us through the Word, for Peter experienced that in Mt.16:16,17; and he still didn't have much for faith by looking at his walk. He refuted Christ that same day, he denied the Lord, God may reveal himself, that's the first step but we have to do something with what we have learned or else God will take it all away from us. Lk.8:18;

Yes I believe if I die right now I will go to heaven, because of the blood of Christ for I can't earn my way and because of the word of Truth which teaches me the Truth that has set me free from the world of darkness.

Working out my salvation with fear and trembling Php.2:12;

RJ

ravi4u2
Jan 19th 2008, 05:57 PM
Faith it seems it has to be more than God revealing Himself to us through the Word, for Peter experienced that in Mt.16:16,17; and he still didn't have much for faith by looking at his walk. He refuted Christ that same day, he denied the Lord, God may reveal himself, that's the first step but we have to do something with what we have learned or else God will take it all away from us. Lk.8:18;

Yes I believe if I die right now I will go to heaven, because of the blood of Christ for I can't earn my way and because of the word of Truth which teaches me the Truth that has set me free from the world of darkness.

Working out my salvation with fear and trembling Php.2:12;

RJAre you assuming that Paul is talking about eternal salvation in Philippians 2:12?

mcgyver
Jan 19th 2008, 06:18 PM
So far, I agree with the majority of posts here :)


Are you assuming that Paul is talking about eternal salvation in Philippians 2:12?

I'm glad that this verse was brought up...In the thread I was referring to, this very verse was used as a "proof" verse in the poster's answer that "You can't know for sure" (whether you're saved). :P

RJ Mac
Jan 19th 2008, 06:57 PM
I believe salvation is salvation, Paul is saying never to take anything for granted but strive to remain in Christ. Fear and trembling because you can fall from God's grace.

Gal.5:3,4 "And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You who have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace."

Ezek.18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for all his treachery which he has committed, for them he will die."

This world of darkness has many bobbles that attract and distract the mind, turn around and we find we have drifted from the Truth and are once again entangled in the world of iniquity. God does not judge us based on the righteous deeds we have done in the past nor on the wicked deeds of the past, God will judge us the day we die! On that day will I be a righteous man or a wicked man, Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling, because believe it or not, salvation is not a one time act, it is a lifetime act, and woe to those not found in Christ.

Not the amount of works that I do, or lack of sin in my life, its whether I am walking in the light that's what counts, 1Jn.16-8 Jesus covers all my inadequacies. So Paul encourages me to fight the good fight, Php.3:7-21

So right now I am walking in the light, I know I have eternal life but I also am very aware I must keep my spiritual wits about me.

1Tim.4;16 "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

To him who has ears to hear let him hear.

RJ

ravi4u2
Jan 20th 2008, 12:04 AM
I'm glad that this verse was brought up...In the thread I was referring to, this very verse was used as a "proof" verse in the poster's answer that "You can't know for sure" (whether you're saved). :P


I believe salvation is salvation, Paul is saying never to take anything for granted but strive to remain in Christ. Fear and trembling because you can fall from God's grace.

The word salvation can refer to deliverance from things other than eternal condemnation. Paul says in 1:19 that "this shall turn out for my deliverance". The same Greek word for salvation (used in 2:12) is used for deliverance here, and by looking at the context in 1:12-17 we learn that Paul was expecting to be delivered from his imprisonment in Rome for the Gospel. Physical deliverance was what he meant in 1:19.

In the same manner, Paul used the word for salvation again in 1 :28, but this time he was talking about salvation for the Philippians. Salvation from what? In 1 :27-28 he talked about the Philippians' unity of spirit and purpose in "striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents." Their unity was a sign of destruction for their opponents, and it was a sign of deliverance, "salvation," from their opponents. Those enemies of the faith could not prevail against the believers' unified front. Again, the salvation was physical and temporal, not spiritual and eternal.

So twice in Philippians Paul has used the word salvation referring to something other than eternal salvation, before he commands that they "work out [their] salvation" in 2:12.

When you trace Paul's line of thought from 1:28 through 2:18, it is obvious that he is talking about God working through the Philippians' temporal suffering which was directed at them by their opponents. So in Phil 2:12 we do not have a call to work to gain eternal salvation. We have instead a call to a victorious deliverance from spiritual defeat in our sufferings.

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2008, 02:43 PM
Francis of Assisi supposedly said, "Preach the gospel always. Use words if necessary." Light will always expel darkness and draw others to it. Just live Christ and that is the best testimony.While one should certainly live the gospel... the idea that they should "use words if necessary" just makes no sense considering Scripture. How can they hear without someone SPEAKING it? Jesus didn't just "live it"... and Jesus is our example.

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2008, 02:54 PM
The word salvation can refer to deliverance from things other than eternal condemnation. Paul says in 1:19 that "this shall turn out for my deliverance". The same Greek word for salvation (used in 2:12) is used for deliverance here, and by looking at the context in 1:12-17 we learn that Paul was expecting to be delivered from his imprisonment in Rome for the Gospel. Physical deliverance was what he meant in 1:19.

In the same manner, Paul used the word for salvation again in 1 :28, but this time he was talking about salvation for the Philippians. Salvation from what? In 1 :27-28 he talked about the Philippians' unity of spirit and purpose in "striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents." Their unity was a sign of destruction for their opponents, and it was a sign of deliverance, "salvation," from their opponents. Those enemies of the faith could not prevail against the believers' unified front. Again, the salvation was physical and temporal, not spiritual and eternal.

So twice in Philippians Paul has used the word salvation referring to something other than eternal salvation, before he commands that they "work out [their] salvation" in 2:12.

When you trace Paul's line of thought from 1:28 through 2:18, it is obvious that he is talking about God working through the Philippians' temporal suffering which was directed at them by their opponents. So in Phil 2:12 we do not have a call to work to gain eternal salvation. We have instead a call to a victorious deliverance from spiritual defeat in our sufferings.Well Mcgyver... so much for this not going into the eternal security area! :lol:

Yes, that passage is speaking of eternal salvation as the context of that passage brings out.

Philippians 2:12 ¶So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

It is an "endure to the end" message. The only think he could be talking about when mentioning the "day of Christ"... is the beginning of eternity. He is not speaking of being saved from their opponents. This entire letter was simply encouraging the Philippian church to hold firm... stand fast... endure.

ravi4u2
Jan 20th 2008, 04:33 PM
While one should certainly live the gospel... the idea that they should "use words if necessary" just makes no sense considering Scripture. How can they hear without someone SPEAKING it? Jesus didn't just "live it"... and Jesus is our example.Actions speak louder than words. While I do not say that it is unnecessary to use words, I say that our words must be in tandem with our actions. Not the other way around. And 'speaking' is a part of 'living'.

ravi4u2
Jan 20th 2008, 04:42 PM
Well Mcgyver... so much for this not going into the eternal security area! :lol:

Yes, that passage is speaking of eternal salvation as the context of that passage brings out.

Philippians 2:12 ¶So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

It is an "endure to the end" message. The only think he could be talking about when mentioning the "day of Christ"... is the beginning of eternity. He is not speaking of being saved from their opponents. This entire letter was simply encouraging the Philippian church to hold firm... stand fast... endure.
When you trace Paul's line of thought from 1:28 through 2:18, it is obvious that he is talking about God working through the Philippians' temporal suffering which was directed at them by their opponents. Follow Paul's thoughts:

1:27 Paul calls for the Philippians' unity in the faith.

1:28-30 That unity was needed because they were under attack for the faith, just as Paul was.

2:1-4 Paul again pleads for unity, and he says that it comes through selflessness and humility among the believers.

2:5-11 The believer's model for humility under fire is none other than the Lord Jesus Himself. Jesus obeyed His Father, and the Father exalted Him when He humbled Himself.

2:12-13 Picking up his exhortation from v 4, Paul now says that just as the Philippians had always obeyed, now they must also obey again "with fear and trembling," a probable reference to the humility and submission that Christ exemplified. As God delivers them from their opponents while they stand together in humility toward one another, they can be assured that it is God working His will in them.

2:14-18 This unity will prove them to be "blameless and innocent" in a corrupted world where they shine as "lights" for the Gospel. That kind of faithfulness under fire will make Paul rejoice when they all stand before the Lord-and even now while he is in prison.

When considered in its context, Phil 2:12 is transformed from an awkward interpretative problem into a wise and sobering challenge. We cannot oppose one another as believers if we expect to oppose the attacks of the world against our common faith. And humility toward our brothers and sisters in the faith is the key to our unity. If we do not kneel to serve one another, we will have a difficult time standing before the world.

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2008, 06:34 PM
When you trace Paul's line of thought from 1:28 through 2:18, it is obvious that he is talking about God working through the Philippians' temporal suffering which was directed at them by their opponents. Follow Paul's thoughts:

1:27 Paul calls for the Philippians' unity in the faith.

1:28-30 That unity was needed because they were under attack for the faith, just as Paul was.

2:1-4 Paul again pleads for unity, and he says that it comes through selflessness and humility among the believers.

2:5-11 The believer's model for humility under fire is none other than the Lord Jesus Himself. Jesus obeyed His Father, and the Father exalted Him when He humbled Himself.

2:12-13 Picking up his exhortation from v 4, Paul now says that just as the Philippians had always obeyed, now they must also obey again "with fear and trembling," a probable reference to the humility and submission that Christ exemplified. As God delivers them from their opponents while they stand together in humility toward one another, they can be assured that it is God working His will in them.

2:14-18 This unity will prove them to be "blameless and innocent" in a corrupted world where they shine as "lights" for the Gospel. That kind of faithfulness under fire will make Paul rejoice when they all stand before the Lord-and even now while he is in prison.

When considered in its context, Phil 2:12 is transformed from an awkward interpretative problem into a wise and sobering challenge. We cannot oppose one another as believers if we expect to oppose the attacks of the world against our common faith. And humility toward our brothers and sisters in the faith is the key to our unity. If we do not kneel to serve one another, we will have a difficult time standing before the world.
Certainly the were being persecuted. At this point in time... it is likely written when Nero was the Emperor of Rome and that persecution was gnarly.

Paul's run wouldn't have been in vain with them on the day of Christ if it was simply talking about them being in unity here in the nasty now and now. I know that your doctrine is big on all of this and you see that message in pretty much all of Scripture... but it really doesn't make sense outside of those who adhere to your doctrine.

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2008, 06:35 PM
Actions speak louder than words. While I do not say that it is unnecessary to use words, I say that our words must be in tandem with our actions. Not the other way around. And 'speaking' is a part of 'living'.
Just clarifying the fact that it ain't just about living it. You didn't make such a clarification and left it lay as if living the life was all that was necessary and words weren't. That is exactly what that quote is speaking of... it is not a biblical quote because it is only a partial truth.

RoadWarrior
Jan 20th 2008, 06:45 PM
So how can a Christian say He can't know if He's saved?

How can we tell the unsaved, how to become saved, if we're not sure ourselves?

McGyver,

If a person does not know for sure that they are saved, then IMHO they should not be telling an unbeliever how to get saved.

A person who does not know that their life has been changed, that they are a new person, needs to be spending more time in seeking to know it, or to gain it if in truth they do not have it. When they have the assurance of their own salvation, then they have a testimony, that is the witness of the truth of what God has done in their life.

Responses that we give to people in the Christians Answer forum need to be prayed over before we hit that send key, IMHO.

ravi4u2
Jan 21st 2008, 12:45 AM
Just clarifying the fact that it ain't just about living it. You didn't make such a clarification and left it lay as if living the life was all that was necessary and words weren't. That is exactly what that quote is speaking of... it is not a biblical quote because it is only a partial truth.Well, most quotes are partial truths aren't they? If you want to present the whole truth, in most cases, you would have to write a thesis. And I cannot imagine anyone who live life without talking, unless they are dumb.

ravi4u2
Jan 21st 2008, 12:55 AM
Certainly the were being persecuted. At this point in time... it is likely written when Nero was the Emperor of Rome and that persecution was gnarly.

Paul's run wouldn't have been in vain with them on the day of Christ if it was simply talking about them being in unity here in the nasty now and now. I know that your doctrine is big on all of this and you see that message in pretty much all of Scripture... but it really doesn't make sense outside of those who adhere to your doctrine.The kind of faithfulness under fire will make Paul rejoice when they all stand before the Lord-and even now while he is in prison, so it is not in vain. And it is often quite easy to brush off something as 'your doctrine', when you don't have anything constructive to say otherwise.

RJ Mac
Jan 21st 2008, 02:44 PM
Php2:1-11 is talking about the example of Christ, who although found Himself as a man, He still humbled Himself and went to the cross, He could have called 10,000 angels. For this reason God highly exalted Him...

So then continue to obey, even more in my absence and work out your salvation - Get through the trials and temptations so you can come through tho the other side, just like we saw Jesus do. If you don't endure, persevere you won't win the prize. Overcoming the pit falls of life makes us overcomers.

I've seen parents, long time Christians, suffer the lost of a child and lose their faith in God and walk away. People marry outside of the faith and be influenced to spending weekends enjoying creation and forsaking the assembly. What we do today spells out where we end up tomorrow.

RJ

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 03:16 PM
Hypocrite: Lit "one who wears a mask"

First, this is not a "Conditional vs Eternal Security" issue...so PLEASE don't turn it into one (pretty please? :))

On another thread a question was asked..."how do we know we're saved?", and I saw some answers that basically said "you can't be certain", "You can't know for sure".

Three verses immediately came to my mind:

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:12-13 NKJV)

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36 NKJV)

and:

"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9-10 NKJV)

Now then here's the question:

Having met all the scriptural requirements for Salvation, if we can't know for sure that we're saved...Then aren't we being rank hypocrites every time we share the Gospel?

What do you think?

It might sound that way. But it's actually scriptural. The disciples actually asked the same question, as they themselves were questioning their salavation.

Mark 10:25-27
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Solomon also references the fact, that man has little knowledge of his future in Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 9:1
For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

So in the end, only God knows who the saved and unsaved are. Many might get angry about this, but who are we to question the authority and wisdom of God? If you think about it in the grand scheme of things, maybe the not knowing in entirety is the best thing for a man, seeing as how it will show what his true focus is within his life. I think the best gifts are usually given, when one has no expectation of receiving reward upon giving them.

Blessings,

Stephen

ProjectPeter
Jan 21st 2008, 03:42 PM
Well, most quotes are partial truths aren't they? If you want to present the whole truth, in most cases, you would have to write a thesis. And I cannot imagine anyone who live life without talking, unless they are dumb.Again... the quote implies that the living should by and large be the main witness. IF you must... then talk. Thing is... you MUST talk. Hence the whole "go into the whole world" command by Christ. Living it is something all disciples should do... but speaking it is vitally important as well. That quote makes speaking it lesser. Any one reading the quote would take that from the quote. Many do in fact... read some of the threads on "how do you witness to others" in here.... you will see that clearly. Many say nothing and think that their living is testimony to the gospel in and of itself. It isn't.

ProjectPeter
Jan 21st 2008, 03:45 PM
The kind of faithfulness under fire will make Paul rejoice when they all stand before the Lord-and even now while he is in prison, so it is not in vain. And it is often quite easy to brush off something as 'your doctrine', when you don't have anything constructive to say otherwise.Has nothing to do with having something constructive to say. I've already said the constructive part! Simple fact of the matter is that this is pretty much the message you make the entire Bible into as has been evident in many a discussion we've participated in. This is just another one of those times. Your rendering of it makes little sense because of a couple of the passages that I pointed out. If you see it how you see it though... that's the way you see it. It's your doctrine as I said which you see in the vast majority of Scripture... this is but just another example of that.

ravi4u2
Jan 21st 2008, 05:04 PM
Again... the quote implies that the living should by and large be the main witness. IF you must... then talk. Thing is... you MUST talk. Hence the whole "go into the whole world" command by Christ. Living it is something all disciples should do... but speaking it is vitally important as well. That quote makes speaking it lesser. Any one reading the quote would take that from the quote. Many do in fact... read some of the threads on "how do you witness to others" in here.... you will see that clearly. Many say nothing and think that their living is testimony to the gospel in and of itself. It isn't.Again, speaking is part of your living for Christ. Anyone who speaks of Christ when his living is not a testament to Him, is as the title of this thread suggest, 'Hypocrites'!

ravi4u2
Jan 21st 2008, 05:13 PM
Has nothing to do with having something constructive to say. I've already said the constructive part! Simple fact of the matter is that this is pretty much the message you make the entire Bible into as has been evident in many a discussion we've participated in. This is just another one of those times. Your rendering of it makes little sense because of a couple of the passages that I pointed out. If you see it how you see it though... that's the way you see it. It's your doctrine as I said which you see in the vast majority of Scripture... this is but just another example of that.PP, this is a low blow. If you disagree to something that was said elsewhere, it should be discussed under that thread. To paint a broad brush stroke is not right. If there is something constructive to say about this thread, then, say it! I have already replied to your 'constructive part' elsewhere on this thread. Well, if you don't 'see' it, I could quote the last few portions of Acts. But I chose not to do it, because it would be a low blow.

Mark F
Jan 21st 2008, 05:57 PM
mcgyver,


Having met all the scriptural requirements for Salvation, if we can't know for sure that we're saved...Then aren't we being rank hypocrites every time we share the Gospel?

My first question would be if someone does not have assurance of salvation, how could they tell someone else something they themselves don't understand in the first place?

In response to your original question, we can with confidence share the gospel and show others that indeed we can have assurance of salvation. Who is it who saves? God saves and we are only the recipients of His amazing grace. Anyone who would argue with this is only proving that they cannot give up their own desire to save themselves, or help God in the process. We need to keep that in mind. People who have trouble believing they are saved, and try to tell others how to be saved will most likely do a poor job of correctly presenting the gospel.

Salvation and sanctification are two totally different things.

Our salvation is sure if we depend TOTALLY on God and we have approached Him on His terms.


Alot of what I read is that people have these things terribly blended together and cannot tell the difference one from the other.

So this being the case, maybe they shouldn't be called hypocrites, deceived and confused may be more appropriate.

ProjectPeter
Jan 21st 2008, 09:00 PM
Again, speaking is part of your living for Christ. Anyone who speaks of Christ when his living is not a testament to Him, is as the title of this thread suggest, 'Hypocrites'!Again... that would be proper clarification of that quote which was left alone.

ProjectPeter
Jan 21st 2008, 09:01 PM
PP, this is a low blow. If you disagree to something that was said elsewhere, it should be discussed under that thread. To paint a broad brush stroke is not right. If there is something constructive to say about this thread, then, say it! I have already replied to your 'constructive part' elsewhere on this thread. Well, if you don't 'see' it, I could quote the last few portions of Acts. But I chose not to do it, because it would be a low blow.Nothing low about it. Goodness... can't figure out what nerve I pinched with you here. It is in fact pretty much where you take most Scripture... that's how you see it. That's cool although I think you're way off.

jiggyfly
Jan 21st 2008, 09:37 PM
Again... the quote implies that the living should by and large be the main witness. IF you must... then talk. Thing is... you MUST talk. Hence the whole "go into the whole world" command by Christ. Living it is something all disciples should do... but speaking it is vitally important as well. That quote makes speaking it lesser. Any one reading the quote would take that from the quote. Many do in fact... read some of the threads on "how do you witness to others" in here.... you will see that clearly. Many say nothing and think that their living is testimony to the gospel in and of itself. It isn't.
While I agree that speaking and living the gospel are both important, there seems to be a more serious lack of living the gospel which kinda nullifies the speaking part and reduces it to just religious jargon.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:13 AM
While I agree that speaking and living the gospel are both important, there seems to be a more serious lack of living the gospel which kinda nullifies the speaking part and reduces it to just religious jargon.
Takes both... walk the talk I would think should be a no-brainer for those that have actually read the Bible. That they don't... something many folk will have to answer for. But there is a lot more walking than those talking... and talking the walk is what is really needed other there today. ;)

RoadWarrior
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:15 AM
Takes both... walk the talk I would think should be a no-brainer for those that have actually read the Bible. That they don't... something many folk will have to answer for. But there is a lot more walking than those talking... and talking the walk is what is really needed other there today. ;)

I agree, ProjectPeter. Perhaps the problem with people not walking the talk is that they are sorely lacking in Bible knowledge. What is needed is not that we should have less Bible knowledge, but that we need to know it better than we do, and to really believe it. A pastor of mine some years ago said, "If you really believe what it says, you will start to do it."

The Bible includes preaching the gospel with words as well as living Godly lives.

maryanneoke
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:41 AM
Trust in what Jesus did, He died to pay the price for sin. It was a gift to us.Trust and believe that is was done so you will live forever, safe with the Lord.
Follow the commandments. They are so important. And if you break one talk to God tell him the your sorry. Repent. Everyday and everytime you think of something that you did in the past.
Lead others to Christ, Show them you love them and help them to have a enternal life. And you do all this there will be no need for you to doubt. Satan comes to us and says " How do you know you going to Heaven?, you did this". It is the same thing he has been doing since the garden of Eden.
90% of the battle with satan is mental. And if he can put doubt in your head he will. Don't believe him, he is wrong, and a lier. From the first sin to the last. From stealing to murder. A sin is a sin, no better, no worse. All sin is the same. so never think you are worse then anyone, we should all go to hell, but we are saved through grace.
And remember If the ememy can't get you through distruction, He will settle for distraction, and he distracts with doubt and quilt. So all ways Love your brothers, Repent daily, And Forgive those who hurt you. Read Matt. 6:14,15 it is on forgiveness and it is a forgotten one sometimes.
Thanks For reading this and God Bless you.

jiggyfly
Jan 22nd 2008, 04:19 AM
Takes both... walk the talk I would think should be a no-brainer for those that have actually read the Bible. That they don't... something many folk will have to answer for. But there is a lot more walking than those talking... and talking the walk is what is really needed other there today. ;)

Maybe I'm just blind then because I don't see a lack of talking but rather the exact opposite of what you are saying. Grant it most of the talking is just religious talk but I think for the most part it is exactly what James was talking about, faith without works is dead. Paul said that faith expresses itself through love. I believe that Father intends for the gospel to be preached but I also believe that much of the gospel message has been lost to preaching religious doctrine, tradition and theology.

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/000525.html

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2008, 01:05 PM
Maybe I'm just blind then because I don't see a lack of talking but rather the exact opposite of what you are saying. Grant it most of the talking is just religious talk but I think for the most part it is exactly what James was talking about, faith without works is dead. Paul said that faith expresses itself through love. I believe that Father intends for the gospel to be preached but I also believe that much of the gospel message has been lost to preaching religious doctrine, tradition and theology.

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/000525.html
Rest assured... I'm not downplaying works and folks that have been around the board a while know that for certain. You've been here long enough to know better than that!

My comment was in response to the quote made which downplays the speaking part. Anyone can read that quote and think living is the only thing and speaking... not nearly that important. Like I said... that is only partial truth.

ravi4u2
Jan 22nd 2008, 07:14 PM
Nothing low about it. Goodness... can't figure out what nerve I pinched with you here. It is in fact pretty much where you take most Scripture... that's how you see it. That's cool although I think you're way off.No nerves were pinched...you are entitled to your opinion, about being 'way off'. I probably could say that about you as well and that would be my opinion. Paul says, "Test all things; hold fast what is good."

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2008, 07:29 PM
No nerves were pinched...you are entitled to your opinion, about being 'way off'. I probably could say that about you as well and that would be my opinion. Paul says, "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
Hey... if that gets you through your day with a smile on your face... works for me! ;)

ravi4u2
Jan 22nd 2008, 07:35 PM
Rest assured... I'm not downplaying works and folks that have been around the board a while know that for certain. You've been here long enough to know better than that!

My comment was in response to the quote made which downplays the speaking part. Anyone can read that quote and think living is the only thing and speaking... not nearly that important. Like I said... that is only partial truth.The original comment was:


"Preach the gospel always. Use words if necessary." It is all in the interpretation. Is Christ a necessity? Then, you have to use words! The good Samaritan spoke the gospel the loudest, without ever speaking any word to the man lying hurt in the byways.

I have had someone come to me and say, "I have been observing you and your family. You are always so joyful. Don't you have any problems?" It was an opportunity for me to share Christ with him. But my sharing was first by living before the speaking.

I was involved in the Tsunami relief in Indonesia, where hundred of thousands of people had died and lay in heaps. Most were Moslems and I could not share Christ. My sharing Christ, was in my deeds of pulling out the dead from among the debris, and helping the survivors in the family have some form of closure. At least one young girl in a family I was helping had a supernatural encounter of Jesus in her dream and turned to Him, without me speaking any word to her.

Even today, there are many who are ministering Christ in the 10/40 window, who are constrained from speaking any word about Christ. But that does not keep them restrained from sharing Christ...in deeds of course!

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2008, 07:57 PM
The original comment was:

It is all in the interpretation. Is Christ a necessity? Then, you have to use words! The good Samaritan spoke the gospel the loudest, without ever speaking any word to the man lying hurt in the byways.

I have had someone come to me and say, "I have been observing you and your family. You are always so joyful. Don't you have any problems?" It was an opportunity for me to share Christ with him. But my sharing was first by living before the speaking.

I was involved in the Tsunami relief in Indonesia, where hundred of thousands of people had died and lay in heaps. Most were Moslems and I could not share Christ. My sharing Christ, was in my deeds of pulling out the dead from among the debris, and helping the survivors in the family have some form of closure. At least one young girl in a family I was helping had a supernatural encounter of Jesus in her dream and turned to Him, without me speaking any word to her.

Even today, there are many who are ministering Christ in the 10/40 window, who are constrained from speaking any word about Christ. But that does not keep them restrained from sharing Christ...in deeds of course!Sure you could have shared Christ. Might got you beaten... might have even got you killed. But your "living it" was no different than hundreds of other organizations out there "living it" who were no more Christian than the man on the moon. Your speaking it... they would have not only seen "Jesus in you" they'd of known the "Jesus in you."

And I know the original quote and your context isn't his context when he made the quote. And as I said... it implies the deeds are MORE important than the words. That is not a fact supported by Scripture. I'm still going to make that point every time you post the quote. ;)

ravi4u2
Jan 22nd 2008, 10:00 PM
Sure you could have shared Christ. Might got you beaten... might have even got you killed. But your "living it" was no different than hundreds of other organizations out there "living it" who were no more Christian than the man on the moon. Your speaking it... they would have not only seen "Jesus in you" they'd of known the "Jesus in you."

And I know the original quote and your context isn't his context when he made the quote. And as I said... it implies the deeds are MORE important than the words. That is not a fact supported by Scripture. I'm still going to make that point every time you post the quote. ;)Hey... if that gets you through your day with a smile on your face... works for me! ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2008, 10:07 PM
Rest assured... when able to clarify something like that... I smile right big! :)

ravi4u2
Jan 22nd 2008, 10:48 PM
Now then here's the question:

Having met all the scriptural requirements for Salvation, if we can't know for sure that we're saved...Then aren't we being rank hypocrites every time we share the Gospel?

What do you think?I think it is a case of doublethink than hypocrisy. Doublethink is a form of trained, willful intellectual blindness to contradictions in a belief system. Doublethink differs from ordinary hypocrisy in that the "doublethinking" person deliberately had to forget the contradiction between his two opposing beliefs — and then deliberately forget that he had forgotten the contradiction. He then had to forget the forgetting of the forgetting, and so on; this intentional forgetting, once begun, continues indefinitely. It is also described as 'controlled insanity'.

RoadWarrior
Jan 22nd 2008, 11:20 PM
I think it is a case of doublethink than hypocrisy. Doublethink is a form of trained, willful intellectual blindness to contradictions in a belief system. Doublethink differs from ordinary hypocrisy in that the "doublethinking" person deliberately had to forget the contradiction between his two opposing beliefs — and then deliberately forget that he had forgotten the contradiction. He then had to forget the forgetting of the forgetting, and so on; this intentional forgetting, once begun, continues indefinitely. It is also described as 'controlled insanity'.

I just looked this up on Wiki, and I remember it from reading 1984 many years ago! LOL, what a funny concept!

That was entertaining, Ravi, but I still think you are describing hypocrisy.


Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to a belief or behaviour while holding the opposite beliefs or behaviours at the same time.


The original question in the OP is about how does one know if one is saved. I don't think the thread has really gone in that direction at all. Do you have an answer for that one? Aside from just talking about it being inward, etc. and just living it as opposed to talking about it. How do you know that you are saved?

jiggyfly
Jan 22nd 2008, 11:58 PM
I just looked this up on Wiki, and I remember it from reading 1984 many years ago! LOL, what a funny concept!

That was entertaining, Ravi, but I still think you are describing hypocrisy.



The original question in the OP is about how does one know if one is saved. I don't think the thread has really gone in that direction at all. Do you have an answer for that one? Aside from just talking about it being inward, etc. and just living it as opposed to talking about it. How do you know that you are saved?

reread post #7 RoadWarrior.

ravi4u2
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:03 AM
I just looked this up on Wiki, and I remember it from reading 1984 many years ago! LOL, what a funny concept!

That was entertaining, Ravi, but I still think you are describing hypocrisy.



The original question in the OP is about how does one know if one is saved. I don't think the thread has really gone in that direction at all. Do you have an answer for that one? Aside from just talking about it being inward, etc. and just living it as opposed to talking about it. How do you know that you are saved?Doublethink is a real word meaning "the acceptance of two contradictory ideas or beliefs at the same time", whereas hypocrisy means, "a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude". The original question was:


Now then here's the question:

Having met all the scriptural requirements for Salvation, if we can't know for sure that we're saved...Then aren't we being rank hypocrites every time we share the Gospel?which is a classic example of doublethink.

I have addressed your question:


How do you know that you are saved?read #2 and #8.

Mark F
Jan 23rd 2008, 03:44 AM
From #2:


Whether you are a son or not, cannot be ascertained by an external 'to do list'. It is a matter of the inward. When the Spirit speaks to your hearts that you are the child of God, you simply are.


From #8:


I agree. Faith is not about memorising a certain set of words. Faith is of the inward. Jesus said, "You didn't discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven". So, real faith comes when the Father reveals His Son in our hearts. Faith is not an exercise of the intellect.


From #7:


And to add to this, Jesus said that "rivers of living water will flow out of you", Paul said , we become "new creatures". These are realities and if someone hasn't experienced them then they have not been born again. Our faith should be based on our experience with God and confirmed through the scriptures not the other way around. So in other words one should keep seeking, asking and knocking until these things are realities in their life then they won't doubt. Anyone who has ever fallen down and experienced the force of gravity does not question if it really exists or not. I don't think that many who believe they are part of Christ's body and are void of a new birth experience are hypocrites, they have been deceived by a religious system and or spirit.



Where are you getting this from? Experience? Every person on earth will have a different experience. The Scriptures declare truth to us that we would otherwise never have a means of discovering, God revealed those truths in Scripture, the spirit of God CONFIRMS these things to us. Did Peter reveal some new truth? No. The Scriptures had already done that, the switch in Peters head was finally turned on and he BELIEVED what the Scriptures had previously revealed.


14 "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


The Scripture FIRST, then confirmed in us by the Holy Spirit, thus unity in faith.

ravi4u2
Jan 23rd 2008, 04:00 AM
From #2:




From #8:




From #7:





Where are you getting this from? Experience? Every person on earth will have a different experience. The Scriptures declare truth to us that we would otherwise never have a means of discovering, God revealed those truths in Scripture, the spirit of God CONFIRMS these things to us. Did Peter reveal some new truth? No. The Scriptures had already done that, the switch in Peters head was finally turned on and he BELIEVED what the Scriptures had previously revealed.


14 "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


The Scripture FIRST, then confirmed in us by the Holy Spirit, thus unity in faith.Absolutely! It is your personal encounter with your Savior. Faith comes by hearing the Word, Christ Jesus. The good news is not received because of words alone, but it is received also because of power, and in the Holy Spirit and with much assurance, because the hearer need to know what kind of men we were among them for their sake.

jiggyfly
Jan 23rd 2008, 12:36 PM
From #2:




From #8:




From #7:





Where are you getting this from? Experience? Every person on earth will have a different experience. The Scriptures declare truth to us that we would otherwise never have a means of discovering, God revealed those truths in Scripture, the spirit of God CONFIRMS these things to us. Did Peter reveal some new truth? No. The Scriptures had already done that, the switch in Peters head was finally turned on and he BELIEVED what the Scriptures had previously revealed.


14 "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


The Scripture FIRST, then confirmed in us by the Holy Spirit, thus unity in faith.

So then what about Abraham, Israel, Jacob and Joseph? Did they have scripture? We know that they had faith, so are we of the same faith if we need scripture before we can believe? What about those who do not have bibles?

mcgyver
Jan 23rd 2008, 01:34 PM
Good Morning all...Just have a minute to get back on the board...(pesky, intrusive, real life...:P).

I've enjoyed reading the responses, but except for a couple of people the whole point of my OP has been missed.

So here it is again, a little bit differently:
We are Commanded to spread the Gospel (The Great Commission in Matt 28 "Go Therefore" is in the form of a military command...it is neither a suggestion nor a recommendation.)
The Gospel offers us redemption from sin and eternal life through Jesus Christ ( John 3:16-18 et al).
If then, we can not know for sure that we are saved...
Then to preach a way of salvation without assurance of salvation is by its very nature hypocritical.This is not "doublespeak" or "doublethink" (although I was amused to see the definition used), but a serious question that begs an answer...Here in this very thread there was a response to the effect that ONLY God can know for sure if we are saved.

If that is true, then is not Christ commanding us to preach a false message of salvation? :rolleyes:

jiggyfly
Jan 23rd 2008, 01:50 PM
Good Morning all...Just have a minute to get back on the board...(pesky, intrusive, real life...:P).

I've enjoyed reading the responses, but except for a couple of people the whole point of my OP has been missed.

So here it is again, a little bit differently:
We are Commanded to spread the Gospel (The Great Commission in Matt 28 "Go Therefore" is in the form of a military command...it is neither a suggestion nor a recommendation.)
The Gospel offers us redemption from sin and eternal life through Jesus Christ ( John 3:16-18 et al).
If then, we can not know for sure that we are saved...
Then to preach a way of salvation without assurance of salvation is by its very nature hypocritical.This is not "doublespeak" or "doublethink" (although I was amused to see the definition used), but a serious question that begs an answer...Here in this very thread there was a response to the effect that ONLY God can know for sure if we are saved.

If that is true, then is not Christ commanding us to preach a false message of salvation? :rolleyes:

Please don't mistake my forwardness for rudeness but your last statement (which I bolded) would indicate the lack of an intimate experience and relationship with Christ. Do you know Him?

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 01:51 PM
Good Morning all...Just have a minute to get back on the board...(pesky, intrusive, real life...:P).

I've enjoyed reading the responses, but except for a couple of people the whole point of my OP has been missed.

So here it is again, a little bit differently:

We are Commanded to spread the Gospel (The Great Commission in Matt 28 "Go Therefore" is in the form of a military command...it is neither a suggestion nor a recommendation.)
The Gospel offers us redemption from sin and eternal life through Jesus Christ ( John 3:16-18 et al).
If then, we can not know for sure that we are saved...
Then to preach a way of salvation without assurance of salvation is by its very nature hypocritical.This is not "doublespeak" or "doublethink" (although I was amused to see the definition used), but a serious question that begs an answer...Here in this very thread there was a response to the effect that ONLY God can know for sure if we are saved.

If that is true, then is not Christ commanding us to preach a false message of salvation? :rolleyes:

Certainly not. We preach assurance through faith Christ, however, we don't preach our ability to know the future and know who's names are written in the book of life. There is only one who was deemed fit to open the book of life(the lamb), and I know no man on this earth who can claim to be righteous enough to open the book and know exactly who is/isn't saved.

The method of preaching nowadays that most use is a "self assurance" message, as oppossed to a "God assurance" method. People will say "I'm saved" and call themselves "sanctified saints" when they have very little knowledge of what the process of sanctification is, as well as forget that they're essentially blaspheming and discrediting the righteousnous of Christ when they state they are sinless. There's not truth in a man when he states himself to be sinless.

So we can be bold and confident in our salvation - but this bold and confidence in professing our salvation comes from our faith God, not from ourselves. That's why the apostle Paul states "boast not more of yourselves" - Paul was exclaiming that his boasting was based on the measure and faith, grace and assurance that Christ Jesus had given him, not based on his own individual merit or works. So we should boast unto the Lord and others regarding our salvation, we just need to make sure that we attribute all of our confidence and boasting to God, and not of ourselves.

We have to be careful with the way in which we preach the message of salvation. We never at any point want to get caught up with the idea that we are above reproach, correction, or are no longer in the process of being continually sanctified and conformed to the image of Christ while in this life. Remember as the scriptures state, what God giveth he can easily take away.

mcgyver
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:08 PM
Please don't mistake my forwardness for rudeness but your last statement (which I bolded) would indicate the lack of an intimate experience and relationship with Christ. Do you know Him?

Please dear brother...I should think that the answer to that question should be obvious....you've read my posts...I've been here awhile...;)

My concern/question is to those who would say that one can not know the state of one's soul (saved/unsaved); yet at the same time proclaiming themselves Christian, and (I am assuming) sharing the Gospel.

That is the thrust and point of this thread.

(And, to answer in such a way to remove any doubt: I have been saved by the precious, shed, innocent blood of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ upon the cross (Eph 1:7 et al). I have been born-again a new creation (2 Cor 5:17 et al), and I have dedicated my life to following Him where ever He shall lead me, forsaking the things of this world and embracing the cross(Matt 16:24 et al). By Grace through Faith in Christ(Eph 2:8-9 et al).

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:33 PM
(And, to answer in such a way to remove any doubt: I have been saved by the precious, shed, innocent blood of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ upon the cross (Eph 1:7 et al). I have been born-again a new creation (2 Cor 5:17 et al), and I have dedicated my life to following Him where ever He shall lead me, forsaking the things of this world and embracing the cross(Matt 16:24 et al). By Grace through Faith in Christ(Eph 2:8-9 et al).


By having faith in Christ, one can have assurance of salvation. This is a true work of God. We just need to be careful on how we preach the message of this assurance, and make sure we don't get over-sanctimonious or above reproach after learning of our salvation through Christ. What you've posted above is how the message of salvation should be preached, using scripture.

RJ Mac
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:45 PM
Yes one can know they are saved Today! Jn.8:32 the Truth will make you free.
But will we remain and be found in a saved state come our death, we don't know that one.
I can not tell anyone they are going to hell, but I can say that the road they are traveling upon certainly will take them there.

How can I know that I am saved? The same way you can know if your a boy scout or girl guide or belong to any organization:

Pledged allegiance (confess Christ) Mt.10:32,33
Went through initiation, Ac.2:38
Wear the uniform (clothed in Christ) Gal.3:27
Attend the meetings (fellowship) Heb.10:25; 1Jn.1:6-9
Recruit, telling people the advantages of the organization (evangelize) Mt.28:18-20
Read the manual regularly, studying it to move up in organization, 1Tim.3:1
Obey all rules, (keep His commandments) 1Jn.2:3;

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW you have eternal life. 1Jn.5:13


RJ

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 04:30 PM
Yes one can know they are saved Today! Jn.8:32 the Truth will make you free.
But will we remain and be found in a saved state come our death, we don't know that one.


A couple verses if I may add pretty much support exactly what you just said above.

2 Corinthians 12:20
For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

1 Corinthians 15:30-31
Moreover, why are we endangering ourselves all the time? Every day I face death; I swear it by the pride in you (brothers) that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.


So yeah, we gotta be careful about how we profess the message of salvation. Only God knows the future of every individual.

RoadWarrior
Jan 23rd 2008, 04:38 PM
Good Morning all...Just have a minute to get back on the board...(pesky, intrusive, real life...:P).

I've enjoyed reading the responses, but except for a couple of people the whole point of my OP has been missed.

So here it is again, a little bit differently:

We are Commanded to spread the Gospel (The Great Commission in Matt 28 "Go Therefore" is in the form of a military command...it is neither a suggestion nor a recommendation.)
The Gospel offers us redemption from sin and eternal life through Jesus Christ ( John 3:16-18 et al).
If then, we can not know for sure that we are saved...
Then to preach a way of salvation without assurance of salvation is by its very nature hypocritical.This is not "doublespeak" or "doublethink" (although I was amused to see the definition used), but a serious question that begs an answer...Here in this very thread there was a response to the effect that ONLY God can know for sure if we are saved.

If that is true, then is not Christ commanding us to preach a false message of salvation? :rolleyes:

I've read this thread with increasing interest and bemusement. I am finding it difficult myself, to answer your question as presented. I am one who has no doubt of my salvation because I can see my changed life. I feel the change inside myself. I know what the scriptures say and I believe them. If I had doubts about it, or felt wishy-washy about it, I would probably not ever invite anyone else to join me in salvation.

IF Jesus said we could not know whether our salvation were sure,
and then He said go preach the gospel -
then your premise would be correct, He would be commanding us to preach a false message.

If I don't believe the gospel is true, but go and preach it,
Then I would be a essentially preaching something I did not believe. Whether it is hypocrisy or deception might depend on the motivation.

I think the problem with your question is that it mixes what God says with what people believe. Believing or not believing is not the real test as to whether something is true. People can believe lies as easily as they believe truths, IME. The faith of a child is pure, he just believes whatever his parents teach him. That does not make the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter bunny real, just because he believes it. Later when he learns those are false, he may also stop believing in Jesus. But his lack of belief does not make Jesus false.

By the way, the history of Christianity is replete with men who preached the message because it was their job. They got paid (by the state) to be preachers and it didn't matter the condition of their hearts. So even if the messenger is faulty, if the gospel is preached, then men can hear it. The fallibility or unbelief of man does not nullify the truth of God.

Php 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: 16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice. NKJV

Mark F
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:36 PM
All the pre-bible believers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc....) believed God, Undoubtedly this was passed down from those who had spoken with God, or received a word from God in some form or another, there is less excuse for us who have His words in print before us, (which includes the record of how God spoke in time past) who still waiver in belief.

Peter said;
2 Peter 1:19a: "And so we have the prophetic word confirmed...."

We also have this,

Heb 12:1-2a: 1 "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,...."

I know this is speaking to sanctification but the cloud of witnesses also confirms the Scriptures truth concerning why they did what they did.

1 John 5:9-13;

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[d] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.


For those of you who are uncertain about your salvation you should thank God He included this passage....

2 Timothy 2:11-13;

11 "This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself."


RoadWarrior I agree with your comments, thoughtful. In the case of those paid to preach, I understand, but those who are not what would motivate someone to preach the gospel if they couldn't be certain salvation was attainable? A type of salvation by works of possible gaining favor with God?

RoadWarrior
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:57 PM
...

RoadWarrior I agree with your comments, thoughtful. In the case of those paid to preach, I understand, but those who are not what would motivate someone to preach the gospel if they couldn't be certain salvation was attainable? A type of salvation by works of possible gaining favor with God?

Thanks, Mark. You ask a great question! Paul said it was selfish ambition.

Php 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: 16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, ... NKJV

I think the "paid to preach" is still alive in the US, as some see that they can advertise themselves as preachers and get paid handsomely in speaker's fees to do it. Maybe these are few, I can't tell, but I do know that some are motivated by this.

As for others, I am going to hazard a guess ...

1. Some want the thrill of being onstage and having people listen to them en masse.
2. Some just like to argue and win arguments, it doesn't matter whether it is true or not, it polishes the ego to have won the fight.
3. .. i dunno, what do you think?


p.s. Note that the ones who do it from selfish ambition are the ones who twist the gospel just a tad ....

Tanya~
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:08 PM
what would motivate someone to preach the gospel if they couldn't be certain salvation was attainable? A type of salvation by works of possible gaining favor with God?

I think this certainly would play into it.

I'm assuming you're thinking of someone who believes the gospel, but isn't sure that they're going to 'make it to heaven.' This reminds me of certain family members who follow the Catholic religion. They preach the gospel but do not teach any kind of assurance of salvation, at least that is how it comes across to a particular relative I have in mind.

We were having an innocuous discussion on another topic once and she said in passing, "... if I ever make it to heaven..." This shocked me because at that time I had no idea that Catholics didn't have the assurance of salvation. Yet they preach the gospel (along with their other stuff, of course).

Perhaps the preaching is a meritorious work in their view.

I don't think that a person who is unsure of his own eternal destiny yet still preaches the gospel (according to his religion, like a Catholic priest) is necessarily a hypocrite. It's part of his belief system that he cannot know. Aren't Calvinists equally unsure of their own individual election?

Now if you are talking about someone who believes that salvation isn't really attainable, then yes, that would be hypocritical to go about preaching salvation through faith in Christ. Who would do such a thing?

Mark F
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:08 PM
RoadWarrior,

Yes, I remember that passage from Phillipians, didn't come to mind though.

My first thought was that it was commanded and those who want to "add to their chances" of being saved would do it because of that reason.

I am not advocating that we do not need to be obedient, but my motivation comes from my desire to please Him in response to His grace, not to stack the deck in my favor upon my death. He's already promised me that He will do what He promised if I believe.....

RoadWarrior
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:15 PM
RoadWarrior,

Yes, I remember that passage from Phillipians, didn't come to mind though.

My first thought was that it was commanded and those who want to "add to their chances" of being saved would do it because of that reason.

I am not advocating that we do not need to be obedient, but my motivation comes from my desire to please Him in response to His grace, not to stack the deck in my favor upon my death. He's already promised me that He will do what He promised if I believe.....

Hi Mark,

You and I are just getting to know each other here, so I need to ask ...

Are you one of the ones in the question, who is not assured of your salvation?

Thanks.

Mark F
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:43 PM
RoadWarrior,

I believe that I can do nothing of my own, nor is there anything in me worth redeeming. It is by the wonderful inexplicable grace of God that He HAS imputed Christ's righteousness to me. If I have been given the righteouness of Christ, can there be a doubt that I will stand before Him justified?

No, there is no doubt because I believe the testimony that God has given of His Son. When God looks at me He sees the blood.

I cannot adequately express the truth of it, you know what I mean?

RoadWarrior
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:51 PM
I do understand the inadequacy of expression. I also understand that God is the one who saves -

I do have a couple questions.

If you can do nothing, where is response?
Why did Jesus die for something that was not worth redeeming?

Thanks for helping me understand your position.

I am glad to hear that you do count yourself as having the assurance of your salvation. So then, you do not fall into the category of being one who preaches something you do not believe as I think the OP question is asking. Based on that, you would be one who preaches out of conviction and personal assurance that what you preach is true, and not hypocrisy.






RoadWarrior,

I believe that I can do nothing of my own, nor is there anything in me worth redeeming. It is by the wonderful inexplicable grace of God that He HAS imputed Christ's righteousness to me. If I have been given the righteouness of Christ, can there be a doubt that I will stand before Him justified?

No, there is no doubt because I believe the testimony that God has given of His Son. When God looks at me He sees the blood.

I cannot adequately express the truth of it, you know what I mean?

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:56 PM
I've read this thread with increasing interest and bemusement. I am finding it difficult myself, to answer your question as presented. I am one who has no doubt of my salvation because I can see my changed life. I feel the change inside myself. I know what the scriptures say and I believe them. If I had doubts about it, or felt wishy-washy about it, I would probably not ever invite anyone else to join me in salvation.

IF Jesus said we could not know whether our salvation were sure,
and then He said go preach the gospel -
then your premise would be correct, He would be commanding us to preach a false message.

If I don't believe the gospel is true, but go and preach it,
Then I would be a essentially preaching something I did not believe. Whether it is hypocrisy or deception might depend on the motivation.

I think the problem with your question is that it mixes what God says with what people believe. Believing or not believing is not the real test as to whether something is true. People can believe lies as easily as they believe truths, IME. The faith of a child is pure, he just believes whatever his parents teach him. That does not make the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter bunny real, just because he believes it. Later when he learns those are false, he may also stop believing in Jesus. But his lack of belief does not make Jesus false.

By the way, the history of Christianity is replete with men who preached the message because it was their job. They got paid (by the state) to be preachers and it didn't matter the condition of their hearts. So even if the messenger is faulty, if the gospel is preached, then men can hear it. The fallibility or unbelief of man does not nullify the truth of God.

Php 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: 16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice. NKJV

You make some good points RW. I would still say there can be some real dangers regarding any individual who is too self assured regarding their salvation. Refer to the following verse in Isaiah -

Isaiah 50:10-11
Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Being to self assured, or lighting one's own fire - can lead one into sorrow. I think the apostle Paul explains the best way to approach salvation

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That seems like a rather odd command at first glance, but fear and trembling is the result of someone having absolutely no dependance on self and their own understanding, but has instead given up all of their will, and essentially assigned their fate, whether it be good or bad - to God. This is the walk that Christ took, as well as the walk that all of his diciples should take. We should always approach God with a "Father - Let thy will be done" whether it be something "good" or "bad" we receive in the end.

RoadWarrior
Jan 23rd 2008, 07:50 PM
Friend, I believe you are trying to bring some balance into the equation, and that is a good thing. Any attempts to understand God must be considered in light of His enormity, and our puniness. (is that a word!?)

So - can we be too "self-assured"? Absolutely. But is it about self-assurance, or is it about having faith in the promises of God?

I love Isaiah! I believe this passage quoted by you is a contrast.

There are those who fear the Lord, obey the voice of His servant, and yet they walk in darkness and have no light. The way to have light and walk in light is the next statement - Trust in the name of the Lord.

In contrast are those who neglect the trusting and persevering, who turn to the "kindling of sparks" which is an allusion to turning to idolatry.

So your point is well made. It is not enough to say you believe in God, and to keep the rules and have a Christian lifestyle. There is a deeper truth to being a true child of God, and that is in the trust, and the perseverance. It is more than a lifestyle, it is your life.

I disagree with you on a minor point, I don't see this as being "too self-assured." I see it as not being sufficiently assured that God is trustworthy.

I also like the quote you used from Philippians. Again I disagree with you on minor points. I think fear and trembling, as in Isaiah, the fear of the Lord, comes from the realization of Who God is... of how BIG He is and how insignificant I am in contrast. It is realizing that God can, at any moment He might choose to do so, crush me like a bug. (That is my simplified metaphor.)

What does it mean to "work out" my salvation? I like that you acknowledge the need to surrender our will to His, but I do believe that this particular statement deserves further discussion.

Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane had no reservations of crying out to His Father, letting Him know exactly how He felt about the upcoming crucifixion. In the end, He said, "Your will be done," but before that He also cried out, "If there is any other way .."

I'll let you talk a while. :kiss:


...
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That seems like a rather odd command at first glance, but fear and trembling is the result of someone having absolutely no dependance on self and their own understanding, but has instead given up all of their will, and essentially assigned their fate, whether it be good or bad - to God. This is the walk that Christ took, as well as the walk that all of his diciples should take. We should always approach God with a "Father - Let thy will be done" whether it be something "good" or "bad" we receive in the end.

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:08 PM
Thank you for your testimony RW. I think it's just a matter of not imposing our will and judgement upon God. This is described best within the following verses:


1 Corinthians 4:3-5
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. (http://lclay3.50webs.com/1cor.htm#judge2)
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


We can still have faith in God's promises, and not impose our own final judgement upon him. Many times we can get so caught up with ourselves, that we forget that it's God who's in control of our ultimate destiny and not us.

RoadWarrior
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:18 PM
Thank you for your testimony RW. I think it's just a matter of not imposing our will and judgement upon God. This is described best within the following verses:


1 Corinthians 4:3-5
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. (http://lclay3.50webs.com/1cor.htm#judge2)
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


We can still have faith in God's promises, and not impose our own final judgement upon him. Many times we can get so caught up with ourselves, that we forget that it's God who's in control of our ultimate destiny and not us.

Well, you didn't talk long! :lol: But you have made your point.

I will expand on my understanding of working out my own salvation, just a tad.

I grew up in a church with a certain set of beliefs, many of which I have had to discard as I grew in maturity and knowledge of God's Word.

That to me is part of the "working out". I believe in God, in Jesus, I am surrendered to Him insofar as I know how to surrender. Then, lo and behold, I come across a belief in me that is contrary to His pure Word. As I struggle with that, I sometimes have found it hard to let go of a belief, because so much else was built on top of that core belief. But I've worked it out, and shed the false beliefs, and been better for it. The more of this kind of "work" that I do, the more certain I am that my footsteps are falling on the right path.

Thank you for the conversation. :hug:

Mark F
Jan 24th 2008, 12:06 AM
RoadWarrior,

You asked;


I do have a couple questions.

If you can do nothing, where is response?
Why did Jesus die for something that was not worth redeeming?

I am unclear on the wording of your first question, but the second, in a nutshell, I would say is that even though God lacks nothing, to redeem a sinner who is deserving of destruction puts His grace, mercy, propitiousness, righteousness, and loving kindness on display. (probably left some out)

They key is to remember it is not about me, I am only the thankful, yet bewildered recipient as to why. This dosen't make me doubt, I know that as He conforms me to the image of His Son, He is glorified even more.

RoadWarrior
Jan 24th 2008, 12:16 AM
Mark, maybe I should have asked, what is response? If you "can do nothing" what are you doing right now?

1st. What I mean to say is this: God has done His part, and then it is our responsibility to do our part - to respond to what He has already done. I think response is "something."

2nd. So God creates something that is worthless, and then sets it up and pretends it is worth His dying for?

I think there is something a bit off in this view of God.

But that is just me.

I like knowing that God took the dust of the earth (worth nothing) and breathed His breath into it (worth everything) and somehow the sum is greater than the parts. What He created was so precious to Him, that He has paid the highest possible price to ransom that clay+breath when it was stolen from Him.

I just have a different view. :) I know, that makes me a bit weird.



RoadWarrior,

You asked;

I am unclear on the wording of your first question, but the second, in a nutshell, I would say is that even though God lacks nothing, to redeem a sinner who is deserving of destruction puts His grace, mercy, propitiousness, righteousness, and loving kindness on display. (probably left some out)

They key is to remember it is not about me, I am only the thankful, yet bewildered recipient as to why. This dosen't make me doubt, I know that as He conforms me to the image of His Son, He is glorified even more.

Mark F
Jan 24th 2008, 01:39 AM
RoadWarrior,


So God creates something that is worthless, and then sets it up and pretends it is worth His dying for?


That's a good point you bring up, I guess I'll have to think about that.

One thing that comes to mind though:

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

Now there's one for you!!:idea:

RoadWarrior
Jan 24th 2008, 01:54 AM
RoadWarrior,

That's a good point you bring up, I guess I'll have to think about that.

One thing that comes to mind though:

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

Now there's one for you!!:idea:

That's a great point! So, even if we had become worthless (because of sin) we could be redeemed into a new creation - voila, to God we are now worthy.

In truth, Mark, it has always been Him. He created us, we didn't create ourselves. We sin of our own accord. (That's the dirt - the clay). When He redeems us, it is again His breath (the Holy Spirit) that makes the clay vessel ... well, something more than a lump of dirt. We are, in some strange way, that combination, and incomprehensibly precious to Him.

I love this scripture:

Ps 8:4-6
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet, NKJV

and it is quoted here:

Heb 2:5-8
5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:
"What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet." NKJV

Friend of I AM
Jan 24th 2008, 03:46 PM
Mark, maybe I should have asked, what is response? If you "can do nothing" what are you doing right now?

1st. What I mean to say is this: God has done His part, and then it is our responsibility to do our part - to respond to what He has already done. I think response is "something."

2nd. So God creates something that is worthless, and then sets it up and pretends it is worth His dying for?

I think there is something a bit off in this view of God.

But that is just me.

I like knowing that God took the dust of the earth (worth nothing) and breathed His breath into it (worth everything) and somehow the sum is greater than the parts. What He created was so precious to Him, that He has paid the highest possible price to ransom that clay+breath when it was stolen from Him.

I just have a different view. :) I know, that makes me a bit weird.


Our response should be, having faith in God. True faith in God will produce works.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

James 2:17-18
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

We only become worthless if we don't accept the sacrafice that Christ made on our behalf. By rejecting it, we're essentially saying that it meant nothing to us, so God is saying back to us okay, you've rejected me - so I will reject you as well. Scriptures point to this being the case by stating if we "deny him" he will "deny" us.