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Nihil Obstat
Jan 19th 2008, 05:54 PM
Paul wrote to comfort the church in Thessalonica that the dead in Christ would rise *first* (1 Thess. 4:13-18), and then we in Christ who are alive and remaining will rise *after* them, which will all happen at the seventh trumpet. We know that this will all happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet because Isaiah says of himself that he will rise *with* those who survive the great tribulation (Isa. 26:19-21), and Daniel was told by the angel that the dead would not rise until *after* the great tribulation (Dan. 11:36-12:3). By these three passages in God's word we know that there is only one rapture: post-trib.

To summarize: the dead rise before the living, and the dead rise after the great tribulation, therefore the living do not rise until after the great tribulation. Good? See also 1 Cor. 15:23; Heb. 9:28.

- Lk.11

Buck shot
Jan 20th 2008, 03:34 AM
1Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ will rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I only used the verse you started with. Looks simple. We (dead and alive)will meet in the clouds before we all go to meet the Lord in the air.(pre-trib)

Do you know why the dead have to rise first? They have 6 more feet to travel! LOL:lol:

I am just joking. Either way our brother Paul told us this to "comfort one another" not to cause division. I believe if our name is in the book it's not going to matter what time we arrive.

ross3421
Jan 20th 2008, 07:12 AM
who survive the great tribulation
- Lk.11

Where does it show anyone surviving the great tribulation and Christ's return?


Mark

Nihil Obstat
Jan 20th 2008, 07:15 AM
Where does it show anyone surviving the great tribulation and Christ's return?

I assume you are referring to Christ followers and God fearers, as opposed to the wicked, correct?

1 Thess. 4:15, 17 for starters (see my opening post)... Matt. 23:39; 24:22, 24, 31, 34; 25:31-46... Matt. 13:36-43, 47-51 (cp. 3:12)...

Luke 17:26-37; 18:1-8... Luke 21:24-28, 32... Rom. 11:26-27... 1 Cor. 15:51-52... Heb. 9:28... 1 John 2:28...

And that's just what I could find in passing in the NT - the book of Isaiah, for one, has tons of references to those who survive...

Good? - Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Jan 20th 2008, 08:20 AM
...our brother Paul told us this to "comfort one another" not to cause division. I believe if our name is in the book it's not going to matter what time we arrive.

That's of the wrong spirit... Matt. 24:9-12, 43-51... Luke 19:41-44...

We can know whether Jesus taught pre-trib or post-trib, it's not a mystery. He taught post-trib, as my OP proves.

Those who think it will all pan out well for them simply by saying, "Well, I'm saved, so I'm good," will not find that anywhere in God's word or in Jesus' teachings (and it's a total misunderstanding of the Biblical concept of salvation). He commanded us all to watch and pray so that we'd know the hour of His return. He wouldn't command us to do something impossible.

It is comforting to know that the dead rise first (and that they rise at all). That's the biggest sign, yet it's not mentioned in Matt. 24 (v.31 is *not* a rapture passage, nor is vv.40-41, and we can discuss this if you so desire)... because we're going to be here throughout the great tribulation. It's comforting to all be in unity with God's plan, and to know what His perfect plan is, and that He's in control - seated on the throne - throughout the tribulation. It was comforting to the church in Thessalonica that those who recently had died in Christ would not miss out in the coming kingdom, and that they themselves hadn't missed the resurrection (cp. 2 Tim. 2:16-18).

The timing of the rapture is something that Paul said that he did not want us to be ignorant of (1 Thess. 4:13), and to be ignorant of something means to ignore what is plainly presented to you over and over again. This tells us that the timing of the rapture - if it's pre or post - can be known, otherwise it wouldn't be ignorance.

This causes division because it's important! The enemy exploits this, and though God hates it, He allows it, that we would strive for unity amongst ourselves and achieve it, that the world may know that the Father has sent Jesus, and has loved us as He has loved Jesus (John 17:23). It's by our violent meekness and humility that the kingdom of heaven is taken. Our goal must be unity in the body under the Head, not just with love, but in doctrine as well! For it is doctrine which shapes and directs the way we live our lives (cp. Titus 2)!

To be pan-trib is to set yourself up to fall away... and to be pre-trib is to set yourself up for the shock of your life! Jesus commands that we prepare for the hour of our visitation (Luke 19:41-44), and tells us plainly that we will be here through the great tribulation. He does this so that we would begin to prepare our hearts and our children's hearts *now*, in the day in and day out mundaneness of life. Luke records Jesus telling us that "men's hearts [will fail] them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth" (21:26)! These are they who did not prepare, who did not watch, who did not pray, who did not expect Him to come then; to "delay"...

God's word speaks much and speaks plainly of the great trial which is to come.
We will be here for it.
Prepare for it now.
Tomorrow won't cut it.
Do it daily.

- Lk.11

Duane Morse
Jan 20th 2008, 09:56 AM
He wouldn't command us to do something impossible.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Is it possible for any of us to be perfect?
If it were possible, then we would have no need of Jesus' perfection and sacrifice for our imperfections.

Yet, it is commanded of us to be perfect, none the less.

Mark F
Jan 20th 2008, 03:56 PM
astrongerthanhe,

Why did Jesus in Luke 17:26-30 refer to the days of Noah (the desruction and judgment of the world in a flood), the days of Lot (the destruction and judgment of Sodom) as examples of the end times? Did not Enoch walk with God, a righteous man, disappear prior to God's judgment? Was not righteous Lot delivered prior to God's judgement on that wicked city? Even though Lot was a carnal man, Peter tells us he was righteous and was spared.

Luke 17:30: "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed"

You state that you believe the Bible teaches a post-tib rapture, what is it then that you are watching for that will tell you Jesus return will be at any moment, the signs in the heavens, the abomination of desolation, the anti-christ setting himself up in a temple in Jerusalem, some man signing a peace treaty with Israel,..etc.?

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2008, 04:55 PM
astrongerthanhe
We can know whether Jesus taught pre-trib or post-trib, it's not a mystery. He taught post-trib, as my OP proves.

I also believe it possible to know, however we still continue in disagreement because though your OP may prove it to you it does not prove it to others. There is no doubt you are confident you are right, but your confidence in your understanding does not undermine my own understanding nor does your confidence or your interpretation convince me you are correct.

My point isn't to argue with you about it or sound aggressive but simply to point out that "a", "pre" and "post" all feel as adamantly about their views as you do.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 20th 2008, 05:33 PM
Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Is it possible for any of us to be perfect?
If it were possible, then we would have no need of Jesus' perfection and sacrifice for our imperfections.

Yet, it is commanded of us to be perfect, none the less.

We most certainly can be perfect. At the end of every day it is afforded to and apportioned for all of us who persistently and diligently seek perfection, by God's grace and Jesus' blood. This page (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=109372&highlight=perfect&page=3) should help explain and make this plain...

Don't be so quick to disqualify yourself...

Mograce2U
Jan 20th 2008, 05:48 PM
This verse is also connected:

(Acts 1:10-11 KJV) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; {11} Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Whatever His coming entails, it has nothing to do with looking up into the sky watching the physical clouds.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 20th 2008, 05:55 PM
astrongerthanhe,

Why did Jesus in Luke 17:26-30 refer to the days of Noah (the desruction and judgment of the world in a flood), the days of Lot (the destruction and judgment of Sodom) as examples of the end times? Did not Enoch walk with God, a righteous man, disappear prior to God's judgment? Was not righteous Lot delivered prior to God's judgement on that wicked city? Even though Lot was a carnal man, Peter tells us he was righteous and was spared.

Luke 17:30: "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed"

You state that you believe the Bible teaches a post-tib rapture, what is it then that you are watching for that will tell you Jesus return will be at any moment, the signs in the heavens, the abomination of desolation, the anti-christ setting himself up in a temple in Jerusalem, some man signing a peace treaty with Israel,..etc.?

Great question! What is it that Jesus is comparing when He mentions Noah's and Lot's days? He's talking about wicked people being gathered together and ignoring the messengers He sends to those cities. Who is taken, and who is left? Matt. 24:38-41 says it clearly: the wicked are taken (in judgment), and the righteous are left. This is not a rapture passage. As He says in Luke 17:27, "the flood came and destroyed them all", and in v.29, "it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all". He even specifically brings to remembrance Lot's wife in v.32, who would have escaped judgment had she not turned back (see v.31). Jesus mentioning Lot's wife proves that Noah and Lot aren't pictures of the rapture!

Enoch didn't "escape" the Flood... he was taken 669 years before the flood!

The signs we are to look for are all throughout Scripture. The startling fact that Israel is a nation again and the Jews inhabiting the land is without doubt the biggest sign given us! All the signs given in Matt. 24 will happen in one generation (v.34), and not over two thousand years. We know that this has not yet happened, that this wasn't accomplished by 70 AD, as Jesus has not yet returned and become King on earth, literally reigning from Jerusalem. I know that I'll get responses from Preterists and others, and I'll gladly address those questions as well, as, again, God's word is very plain about this.

- Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Jan 20th 2008, 06:01 PM
I also believe it possible to know, however we still continue in disagreement because though your OP may prove it to you it does not prove it to others. There is no doubt you are confident you are right, but your confidence in your understanding does not undermine my own understanding nor does your confidence or your interpretation convince me you are correct.

My point isn't to argue with you about it or sound aggressive but simply to point out that "a", "pre" and "post" all feel as adamantly about their views as you do.


Would you then address those Scriptures given in my opening post? Because we know that God's word does not contradict itself, we know that only one camp is correct. We also know that we can know, and that it is a command to know. Therefore this is important. So please, discuss the three passages given in my first post, and explain to me how a pre-trib rapture could still be possible? I don't want to discuss my confidence. What is your understanding? I mean, I know that you're pre-trib, but why do you believe this? I'm eager to discuss these things with you, as it is of high priority!

- Lk.11

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2008, 07:09 PM
Would you then address those Scriptures given in my opening post? Because we know that God's word does not contradict itself, we know that only one camp is correct. We also know that we can know, and that it is a command to know. Therefore this is important. So please, discuss the three passages given in my first post, and explain to me how a pre-trib rapture could still be possible? I don't want to discuss my confidence. What is your understanding? I mean, I know that you're pre-trib, but why do you believe this? I'm eager to discuss these things with you, as it is of high priority!

- Lk.11

I dont have time to address the entire post right now but I will address this one issue, the last trumpet terminology does not necessarily mean the last trumpet period. As others have pointed out ... The trumpets had specific sounds with specific meanings. A trumpet call to gather the people would be different than a trumpet call to announce war or judgment. So I disagree that the seventh trumpet and the last trumpet must be the same trumpet for the simple reason that a trumpet to gather Gods people and a trumpet to announce Gods judgment would be two different trumpets or trumpet sounds, sounding two different sounds for two different purposes.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 21st 2008, 06:16 AM
I don't have time to address the entire post right now but I will address this one issue, the last trumpet terminology does not necessarily mean the last trumpet period. As others have pointed out ... The trumpets had specific sounds with specific meanings. A trumpet call to gather the people would be different than a trumpet call to announce war or judgment. So I disagree that the seventh trumpet and the last trumpet must be the same trumpet for the simple reason that a trumpet to gather Gods people and a trumpet to announce Gods judgment would be two different trumpets or trumpet sounds, sounding two different sounds for two different purposes.

Not a problem, I'd love to address this point. As I said earlier, Matt. 24:31 is not a rapture verse - it's the fulfillment of Isa. 27:13, which takes place after Jesus has returned; this is why I do not consider Matt. 24:31's great trumpet blast to be a rapture verse. We can discuss this more later if anyone desires to. But, this means that I agree with you that "the last trumpet" doesn't mean it will be the last trumpet to ever sound in the heavens. So, how can we know that the trumpet / rapture passages in Scripture are speaking of the seventh trumpet prophesied of in Rev. 11?

Let's look at these two "trumpet" passages outside of Revelation first:

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

Would you consider 1 Cor. 15:51-52 to be a pre-trib rapture passage? It couldn't be, as Paul is talking about us receiving our resurrection bodies (cp. v.23). Yet Paul says that he himself ("this" corruptible, "this" mortal) will be raised on that day! Doesn't this disprove a pre-trib rapture? These two passages tell us that we (the dead in Christ first, then the living) receive our resurrection bodies after the tribulation to come! If you have any question as to how, I'll happily explain why thoroughly.

Now, the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15-19 (the sounding of which takes days - Rev. 10:7 - and so will not happen corporately "in the twinkling of an eye", but rather individually; again, Paul was speaking of himself) is when "the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets", and when "the kingdoms of this world [will] become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" It is especially evident that the rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet when noted that it immediately follows the resurrection of the two dead witnesses in Jerusalem (v.11-12) at the end of the tribulation.

And so our findings lead us to a post-trib rapture again, and again disprove any such thing as a pre-trib rapture. If you have any questions about what I've just written, or of any other "pre-trib" passages, feel free to bring them up here for discussion.

- Lk.11

My heart's Desire
Jan 21st 2008, 06:24 AM
In a blink of any eye. I think it happens so fast and at almost the same time, it'd be hard to tell who actually rose first in experience even though we already know it will be the dead who are first.

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 02:52 PM
Would you then address those Scriptures given in my opening post? Because we know that God's word does not contradict itself, we know that only one camp is correct.


God's Word doesn't contradict itself, but man's understanding of God's Word does not flow with God's logic. Thus with God having imparted a limited understanding of himself to each man, there will be some things that God presents to a man within the confounds of human logic, which will seem illogical and/or contradictory to that man. Being that this is such -- a man will have to reconcile his lack of understanding at times with faith in God's Word being completely flawless and True. This is explained to us by Christ within the scriptures.

Mark 10:25-27
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.






We also know that we can know, and that it is a command to know. Therefore this is important. So please, discuss the three passages given in my first post, and explain to me how a pre-trib rapture could still be possible? I don't want to discuss my confidence. What is your understanding? I mean, I know that you're pre-trib, but why do you believe this? I'm eager to discuss these things with you, as it is of high priority!


We can only know as much as God has revealed to us..or as it is written:

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Whether the rapture is pre-trib or post trip is not a huge issue, the important thing to remember is that we are to always be vigilant and ready for the coming of Christ. He will come like a thief in the night, and we all need to pray that we are ready and approved by him when he does come.

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 02:53 PM
In a blink of any eye. I think it happens so fast and at almost the same time, it'd be hard to tell who actually rose first in experience even though we already know it will be the dead who are first.

Sorry I ignored this. I think you said it best out of all of us here, and in fewer words using scripture. Blessings to you.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 21st 2008, 05:46 PM
What is your understanding then of Rev. 10:7, which tells us the rapture will corporately take days?
Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 that individually the rapture will be "in a moment", but not corporately...

Mograce2U
Jan 21st 2008, 07:07 PM
What is your understanding then of Rev. 10:7, which tells us the rapture will take days?My understanding is that the physically dead were to be raised first, and in that moment all of those who are in Christ, who are alive and remain, would be changed too. We assume this catching up to ever be with the Lord, is a physical change rather than a spiritual one as the living saints are caught up into the heavenly places where they were already seated with Him spiritually. This spiritual preparation however is what marks us as having a part with those who had already died in faith.

(Eph 2:5-8 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) {6} And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: {7} That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. {8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We are in those ages to come and this blessing is ours BECAUSE the marriage of the Lamb to His bride came in the first resurrection - which we too have a part in. Therefore when we die, we know we will join them.

(Rom 7:4 KJV) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Our being born again in this life is what brings us into the marriage with the Lamb.

(Rom 8:11-14 KJV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. {12} Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. {13} For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. {14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This was the hope they were to have when that time arrived. It is only the 1st century saints who were being admonished to hold fast to the faith as they looked for Christ's appearing.

(1 Cor 15:15-20 KJV) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. {16} For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: {17} And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. {18} Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. {19} If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. {20} But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

In this passage the tense in the Greek shows that the dead are rising as he speaks. This would be the dead who are in Christ from the 1st century - the martyrs. The resurrection that was still to come when Paul wrote this would have been the OT saints who died pre-cross. I see that their rising would mean a change for us all who are alive, when that occurred and that the sign which pointed to that event was also when the 7th trumpet began to sound that was just before Jerusalem was destroyed. This was not a trumpet they would hear with their ears, any more than they would "see" Christ coming for the dead saints in physical clouds in the sky. But it was something they would know nontheless, that the marriage had been consummated and the mystery of God fulfilled.

If this has not happened as prophecied then we are still in our sins and our hope in Christ's resurrection is still "open" and not assured and NOSAS is our lot in this life. But if the dead have been raised then we can know that we will be too when death comes for us, and that Jesus will take us home to be with Him forever.

(Heb 13:5 KJV) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

(John 14:1-4 KJV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. {2} In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. {3} And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. {4} And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

There is no time that we will be apart from His presence because that place has since been prepared and is waiting for us. The idea that we must "sleep" until some future time to have part in the resurrection was a pre-cross hope, not a post-resurrection one. We have the promise now that Jesus came to deliver. Those in the 1st century however had to wait a little while for this to be accomplished.

Are we to think that some 2000 years later, our salvation is still not finished? It is in this time that we are instructed to call others to come into our hope. In a time during which the living waters are flowing into the earth. While Christ who has ascended and received all power and authority in heaven and earth, is seated upon the throne of His Father subduing all things to Himself?

I know everybody resists the Preterist understanding, and I have not resolved it all either; but what is our unbelief doing to the hope the gospel was intended to bring us? We are either saved or we are not. And if we are it can ony be because Christ has done it all and has left nothing undone that is needed for us to have a hope in His glory.

Here was David's hope:
(Psa 16:9-11 KJV) Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. {10} For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. {11} Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

And here is those who were hoping in Paul's day:
(Rom 5:2 KJV) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

(Col 1:27 KJV) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

But Revelation is showing us that we have this secured to us:
(Rev 1:5-7 KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. {7} Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

(Rev 21:23-27 KJV) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. {24} And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. {25} And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. {26} And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. {27} And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

(Rev 22:14-15 KJV) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. {15} For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

If we are not in this city even now, then where are those who are outside this city to be found? They are not in the lake of fire yet.

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

If these things have not been provided to us then it makes no sense to call others to come to what we do not yet have.

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 07:15 PM
What is your understanding then of Rev. 10:7, which tells us the rapture will corporately take days?
Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 that individually the rapture will be "in a moment", but not corporately...

I don't think the rapture is something that will be viewable to us. It's going to come like a thief in the night. We won't be able to predict it. Only the Father knows when it will be.

My heart's Desire
Jan 21st 2008, 07:16 PM
Sorry I ignored this. I think you said it best out of all of us here, and in fewer words using scripture. Blessings to you.

No problem. We are talking simple and that seemed simple enough for me. ;)

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:49 PM
This verse is also connected:

(Acts 1:10-11 KJV) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; {11} Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Whatever His coming entails, it has nothing to do with looking up into the sky watching the physical clouds.

But is that not what they were doing as they watched him go?

What do you understand by "like manner"?

Mograce2U
Jan 23rd 2008, 03:25 AM
But is that not what they were doing as they watched him go?

What do you understand by "like manner"?What they are doing is gazing into the sky watching Jesus ascend into heaven. This is what the angel observes them doing when he asks them "Why are they gazing into the sky"? IOW they needn't do this exactly to "see" Him when He returns.

Hon tropon is better translated "even as" since the word for "like" is not there. The manner in which Jesus returns will be similar but NOT the same as they are seeing Him go. The interjection of the angel is what makes it a contrast.

Here are some other passages that have the same construct:

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The gathering the Lord desired to do for Israel can be pictured in how a hen gathers her chicks but it certainly isn't meant to be EXACTLY the same.

(2 Tim 3:8 KJV) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

What is similar about the men in the last days that is like Jannes & Jambres is that they too resist the truth, are of similar corrupt minds and are devoid of faith. What the last days men do will not be exactly what J & J did however with Moses.

(Acts 7:28 KJV) Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?

What is the subject asked in this question, is whether or not Moses intends to kill him, not that he will do it exactly the same way he killed the Egyptian.

I think what the angel is pointing out is the suredness of Jesus' return which they know as certainly as what they see now.

ross3421
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:29 AM
What they are doing is gazing into the sky watching Jesus ascend into heaven. This is what the angel observes them doing when he asks them "Why are they gazing into the sky"? IOW they needn't do this exactly to "see" Him when He returns.


I think what the angel is pointing out is the suredness of Jesus' return which they know as certainly as what they see now.


Ac 1:11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mt 24:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Like manner.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 23rd 2008, 07:58 AM
Just to put us back on track...

1) The dead in Christ are given resurrected bodies before the living who are in Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:52).

2) The dead in Christ are given resurrected bodies with the saints who survive the great tribulation to come (Isa. 26:19-21; Dan. 11:36-12:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51).

3) Therefore, those who are alive and remain in Christ are not given resurrected bodies until after the great tribulation to come.

This proves that a post-trib rapture is the only rapture.

- Lk.11

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:54 AM
What they are doing is gazing into the sky watching Jesus ascend into heaven. This is what the angel observes them doing when he asks them "Why are they gazing into the sky"? IOW they needn't do this exactly to "see" Him when He returns.

Hon tropon is better translated "even as" since the word for "like" is not there. The manner in which Jesus returns will be similar but NOT the same as they are seeing Him go. The interjection of the angel is what makes it a contrast.

Here are some other passages that have the same construct:

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The gathering the Lord desired to do for Israel can be pictured in how a hen gathers her chicks but it certainly isn't meant to be EXACTLY the same.

(2 Tim 3:8 KJV) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

What is similar about the men in the last days that is like Jannes & Jambres is that they too resist the truth, are of similar corrupt minds and are devoid of faith. What the last days men do will not be exactly what J & J did however with Moses.

(Acts 7:28 KJV) Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?

What is the subject asked in this question, is whether or not Moses intends to kill him, not that he will do it exactly the same way he killed the Egyptian.

I think what the angel is pointing out is the suredness of Jesus' return which they know as certainly as what they see now.

So what does this scripture mean?
Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Duane Morse
Jan 23rd 2008, 09:31 AM
So what does this scripture mean?
Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Research - 'electron cloud'.

If He comes to be seen in that cloud, then every eye will see Him - at the exact same instant, with the exact same clarity, with the exact same understanding.

Because it will be with every molecule of our (everyone's) very being - from our very beginning to our very end!

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2008, 09:54 AM
Research - 'electron cloud'.

If He comes to be seen in that cloud, then every eye will see Him - at the exact same instant, with the exact same clarity, with the exact same understanding.

Because it will be with every molecule of our (everyone's) very being - from our very beginning to our very end!

So how does that fit into the following from Mograce2U?

Originally Posted by Mograce2U http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1506820#post1506820)
This verse is also connected:

(Acts 1:10-11 KJV) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; {11} Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Whatever His coming entails, it has nothing to do with looking up into the sky watching the physical clouds.

Duane Morse
Jan 23rd 2008, 10:16 AM
So how does that fit into the following from Mograce2U?

Originally Posted by Mograce2U http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1506820#post1506820)
This verse is also connected:

(Acts 1:10-11 KJV) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; {11} Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Whatever His coming entails, it has nothing to do with looking up into the sky watching the physical clouds.
Physical clouds...

Physical...


Define - physical.

Is it that which is 'solid'?

Is it the water vapor that we term 'clouds' in the atmosphere, any more than it is the energy vapor that are the 'clouds' of the electrons?

All 'solid matter' is simply reformed energy waveforms.

'Let Light be' is simply the formation of certain wavelengths of energy by the constraining thereof by the absolute value of Pi - a circle.


God is Light.
God lives within Light.

And Light is a defined principle - and Power.

Defined - just as evil is a defined property and principle.

One can not be without the other, because the one is defined by the other.

So when we are told to watch for Him in the 'clouds', it is with a dual meaning and purpose.

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:26 PM
Physical clouds...

Physical...


Define - physical.

Is it that which is 'solid'?

Is it the water vapor that we term 'clouds' in the atmosphere, any more than it is the energy vapor that are the 'clouds' of the electrons?

All 'solid matter' is simply reformed energy waveforms.

'Let Light be' is simply the formation of certain wavelengths of energy by the constraining thereof by the absolute value of Pi - a circle.


God is Light.
God lives within Light.

And Light is a defined principle - and Power.

Defined - just as evil is a defined property and principle.

One can not be without the other, because the one is defined by the other.

So when we are told to watch for Him in the 'clouds', it is with a dual meaning and purpose.



So we are to watch the clouds according to the following, since that is where he will come from?

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mk 13:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mk 14:62 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Duane Morse
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:01 PM
I just think it has to do with more than mere water vapor in the atmosphere. I get the impression that it is a little wider in scope than that.

Mograce2U
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:32 PM
I just think it has to do with more than mere water vapor in the atmosphere. I get the impression that it is a little wider in scope than that.Me too.

In the OT we see established that God's presence was "seen" in the cloud that filled the temple with His glory. Did anyone see God with their eyes? No what they saw was a manifestation. The cloud was not God, anymore than Job was saying the thunder and lightning was God. And then we have those passages that liken His chariots driven by angels to a cloud coming from heaven which is manifested as war in the earth.

It seems unlikely that Jesus' appearing which He spoke of in those terms was intended to be a visible phenomenon in which He was to be physically seen by us, especially since the SIGN He gave in what would appear in the earth had to do with Jersualem being surrounded by armies.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:57 PM
Just to put us back on track...

1) The dead in Christ are given resurrected bodies before the living who are in Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:52).

2) The dead in Christ are given resurrected bodies with the saints who survive the great tribulation to come (Isa. 26:19-21; Dan. 11:36-12:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51).

3) Therefore, those who are alive and remain in Christ are not given resurrected bodies until after the great tribulation to come.

This proves that a post-trib rapture is the only rapture.

- Lk.11

You know. Just in case I'm on everyone's ignore list...

David Taylor
Jan 23rd 2008, 07:59 PM
It seems unlikely that Jesus' appearing which He spoke of in those terms was intended to be a visible phenomenon in which He was to be physically seen by us

This premise of Jesus' appearing not being visible, however, is contradicted by many verses that make it very clear His appearing is a visible event.

The very word used Jesus' "Appearing" is a visible attribute.

"Appearing" doesn't invoke a hearing, feeling, smelling, or tasting result.

"Appearing" invokes a visible result.

I John 2:28 "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. "

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. "

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "

Appear is visible

Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream"

Matthew 2:7 "Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. "

Matthew 17:3 "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. "

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven"

Matthew 27:53 "And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. "

Mark 16:9 "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene"

Mark 16:14 "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat"

Luke 24:34 Saying, "The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. "


Acts 2:2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire"

Acts 7:30 "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. "

Colossians 3:4 "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. "

I Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords"

Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. "

I Peter 5:4 "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."


Appear is visible
As established repleated throughout the scriptures.

Mograce2U
Jan 23rd 2008, 09:03 PM
David,
That's a lot of verses to show that the spiritual realm can break into ours in a visible sense. Where did the tongues of fire the disciples saw in the upper room go? Did they "burn out" as fire does in the physical realm? Or how about the star the shepherds saw that led them to Jesus' birthplace? The sign - of the Son of Man in heaven - is not a sign appearing in the sky, but something that when they see it they will know He is about. Great verses by the way!

John146
Jan 23rd 2008, 09:14 PM
This premise of Jesus' appearing not being visible, however, is contradicted by many verses that make it very clear His appearing is a visible event.

The very word used Jesus' "Appearing" is a visible attribute.

"Appearing" doesn't invoke a hearing, feeling, smelling, or tasting result.

"Appearing" invokes a visible result.

I John 2:28 "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. "

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. "

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "

Appear is visible

Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream"

Matthew 2:7 "Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. "

Matthew 17:3 "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. "

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven"

Matthew 27:53 "And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. "

Mark 16:9 "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene"

Mark 16:14 "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat"

Luke 24:34 Saying, "The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. "


Acts 2:2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire"

Acts 7:30 "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. "

Colossians 3:4 "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. "

I Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords"

Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. "

I Peter 5:4 "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."


Appear is visible
As established repleated throughout the scriptures.

I agree. In Acts 1:11, the angels told the apostles that Jesus would come in like manner as they had literally, visibly seen Him taken up towards heaven. Since they literally saw Him ascend towards heaven with their own eyes, He will, in like manner, be literally seen when He returns from heaven.

David Taylor
Jan 23rd 2008, 09:25 PM
David,
That's a lot of verses to show that the spiritual realm can break into ours in a visible sense. Where did the tongues of fire the disciples saw in the upper room go? Did they "burn out" as fire does in the physical realm? Or how about the star the shepherds saw that led them to Jesus' birthplace? The sign - of the Son of Man in heaven - is not a sign appearing in the sky, but something that when they see it they will know He is about. Great verses by the way!

The tongues of fire appeared for the same duration that the rushing wind blew through, while the event of Pentecost was occuring. When it was finished, they would have ceased; just like the burning bush (a visible event) ceased after it was finished, and the pillar of fire in the wilderness (a visible event) ceased when it was finished, and on and on.

The Star of Bethlehem was a great example of a "visible event"; thanks for sharing it. It appeared as the bright star in the sky for the duration of time that God required of it to fit the needs of the Magi and the shepherds.

You say the sign of the son of Man is not a sign appearing in the sky; yet Matthew and Mark, Luke, and John all three describe it as a very v"isible event".

Gotta go with them on that one.

When Jesus "appears" in the sky, visibly for all eyes to see; there will be no mistake, and noone forgetting it, and noone not seeing and knowing it has occurred !

Nihil Obstat
Jan 24th 2008, 07:35 PM
I'd really like to get back to the original intent of this thread: discussing the Scriptures that I presented.


1) The dead in Christ are given resurrected bodies before the living who are in Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:52).

2) The dead in Christ are given resurrected bodies with the saints who survive the great tribulation to come (Isa. 26:19-21; Dan. 11:36-12:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51).

3) Therefore, those who are alive and remain in Christ are not given resurrected bodies until after the great tribulation to come.

This proves that a post-trib rapture is the only rapture.

Can anyone refute this plain logic? If not, then why do any believe in a pre-trib rapture? - Lk.11

David Taylor
Jan 24th 2008, 07:39 PM
I'd really like to get back to the original intent of this thread: discussing the Scriptures that I presented.



Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1509666#post1509666)
1) The dead in Christ are given resurrected bodies before the living who are in Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:52).

2) The dead in Christ are given resurrected bodies with the saints who survive the great tribulation to come (Isa. 26:19-21; Dan. 11:36-12:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51).

3) Therefore, those who are alive and remain in Christ are not given resurrected bodies until after the great tribulation to come.





I think you made your case, and that's why it has spawned these other rabbit chases.


Your analysis of those scriptures was sound and clear enough to stand on its own, from that very first post.:pp

My heart's Desire
Jan 24th 2008, 07:56 PM
I'd really like to get back to the original intent of this thread: discussing the Scriptures that I presented.



Can anyone refute this plain logic? If not, then why do any believe in a pre-trib rapture? - Lk.11
Are you separating the time of the resurrection of the dead by a period of time before the resurrection of the living?

Nihil Obstat
Jan 24th 2008, 08:07 PM
I think you made your case, and that's why it has spawned these other rabbit chases.


Your analysis of those scriptures was sound and clear enough to stand on its own, from that very first post.:pp

Yeah (I think so too), but you only think so because you agree with me... I would definitely like to hear from some pre-tribbers...

Nihil Obstat
Jan 24th 2008, 08:15 PM
Are you separating the time of the resurrection of the dead by a period of time before the resurrection of the living?

Well, not by much time... like by a few seconds, perhaps, but certainly not by years...

David Taylor
Jan 24th 2008, 08:56 PM
Yeah (I think so too), but you only think so because you agree with me... I would definitely like to hear from some pre-tribbers...


I was a pretribber for 20 years....I'm sure if you had met me and shared that observation back then, you would have been very helpful.

It is a quite convincing consideration.

Mark F
Jan 25th 2008, 03:35 AM
Paul wrote to comfort the church in Thessalonica that the dead in Christ would rise *first* (1 Thess. 4:13-18), and then we in Christ who are alive and remaining will rise *after* them, which will all happen at the seventh trumpet. We know that this will all happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet because Isaiah says of himself that he will rise *with* those who survive the great tribulation (Isa. 26:19-21), and Daniel was told by the angel that the dead would not rise until *after* the great tribulation (Dan. 11:36-12:3). By these three passages in God's word we know that there is only one rapture: post-trib.

To summarize: the dead rise before the living, and the dead rise after the great tribulation, therefore the living do not rise until after the great tribulation. Good? See also 1 Cor. 15:23; Heb. 9:28.

- Lk.11

Daniel 12:2:
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Clarify why this dosen't say all.
Daniel's prophesy puts the righteous and unrighteous back to back, right?

Revelation 20:4-6:
4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years"

Daniel does not make a distinction here that there is a 1000 year GAP. This first resurrection is not a one time thing, this is the completion of the resurrection from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

The second is Revelation 20:11-15.

Why are you so confident that the Church must suffer the judgment of God?

Surely there is ample Scripture to convince anyone that we are objects of His grace not objects of His wrath!



Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe
I'd really like to get back to the original intent of this thread: discussing the Scriptures that I presented.


Can anyone refute this plain logic? If not, then why do any believe in a pre-trib rapture? - Lk.11

Acts 15:12-17:
Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘ After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.

James tells us AFTER God takes out a people, these things will occur.


2 Thessalonians 2:1-12:
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
"Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The Holy Spirit in believers must be the subject of this passage as the restrainer, for in verse 7 says HE, and we know that the Holy Spirit is in no one but a born from above believer. The Holy Spirit is to be with us forever, according to John 14:16:

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—"

Satan would have brought in the man of sin long ago if the Holy Spirit were not abiding with us as God continues to call out His people from the Gentiles (and Jews), by necessity the Church must be removed with the He in verse 7, the restrainer, BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed.

In Revelation 19:1-10 you have the judgment seat of Christ where believers are judged for rewards, married to the Lamb, and participate in the marriage supper, this is before the return of Christ which commences in verse 11 which you are saying is when the rapture and this resurrection is to occur. How can the Bride accomplish this if she has been on earth being tormented in the time of Jacob's trouble?

Who are the called in Rev. 19:9? Surely we all know that a bride is not called or invited to her own wedding, for she has been made ready and waiting. Guests are called to a wedding. How about the Old Testament Saints, so how did they get there before Jesus returns to earth in glory in verse 11 and as above before they are resurrected?


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

The seventh trumpet you refer to, why did you insert seventh?

The interpretation you give does not bring comfort that I should think I will have to endure the worst trouble and sorrow ever known to the world.

1 Thessalonians 1:10;
10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

1 Thessalonians 2:19:
"For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?"

1 Thessalonians 5:9:
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing."

Colossians 3:1-4:
"If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."

If your theory is correct, how can we appear with Him, do we meet Him in the clouds only to immeadiately come back? What sense does that make?


Revelation 3:7-11 is the Lords address to the true church, is as follows:
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."


You build your case on Scripture concerning resurections, there is less specific Scripture on the subject, time and order than there is on our being kept from the wrath of God.

You refute that Enoch was a picture of the rapture before the flood, I'll concede that to you, Noah on the other hand was most definitely spared before the judgment of God on the world, Lot and His family were also spared before the judgment of God on Sodom, wasn't Rahab spared because she hid the spies?

You can believe as you wish, as for me the Sriptures promise tribulations (troubles) in this life, but my rewards are heavenly, I shall not suffer the judgments of God because of the blood of Jesus Christ was shed to cover my sin.

Romans 8:1-5:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit."

2 Corinthians 5:6-8:
"So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

This issue is only reuniting our souls with new glorified bodies, our souls will be with the lord the moment we die. In the case of the raptured, for them the two will happen simultainiously.

If you do your homework, you will see that the purpose of the tribulation is the vengence of the Lord on those who are disobedient and did not believe the gosple of God, regardless of what the prophesies appear to say concerning times and order, the Jews missed their Massiah, nearly all of them, we have so much evidence that the Church is being called out, Israel and the Jews who still reject the Massiah will endure the great tribulation, do you fall into this catagory?

Matthew 27:24-25:
"When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”

Seeing as Matthew is addressed to the Jew, and if we interpret with that in mind, much of the Olivet discourse would be clearer. The statement the Jews made in verse 25 carries a huge implication to the Jew. Keeping the Church and the unbelieving Jew separate clears up much confusion.

I'm done giving you Scripture to "refute this plain logic", it isn't understood logically, it is understood spiritually.

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2008, 03:38 AM
I hold a pretrib view but I'm about raptured out!;)

yoSAMite
Jan 25th 2008, 04:44 AM
To summarize: the dead rise before the living, and the dead rise after the great tribulation, therefore the living do not rise until after the great tribulation. Good? See also 1 Cor. 15:23; Heb. 9:28.

I'm wondering how Matthew 27:52-53 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." plays into your summation?

Though I admit I haven't looked into it very deeply, I've got an idea that this may be explained by the use of the word saints as a catch all phrase.

Mograce2U
Jan 25th 2008, 04:24 PM
I'm wondering how Matthew 27:52-53 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." plays into your summation?

Though I admit I haven't looked into it very deeply, I've got an idea that this may be explained by the use of the word saints as a catch all phrase.I think it has something to do with what Jesus said to Martha before He raised Lazarus from the dead - which was before the cross:

(John 11:25-26 KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: {26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

These saints who came back to life at His resurrection would have died again - but under the new covenant now. Having been thus given the opportunity to live and believe and receive eternal life. It seems these would have been part of the remnant who recently died during Jesus' ministry since they returned to their homes and family. Had they been saints long dead, I doubt any would have known who they were, which would not be much of a testimony to tell us about.

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2008, 07:05 PM
?

These saints who came back to life .
Saint - Strongs 40 sacred (phys. pure, mor.blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):-(most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Just in case def. of saint comes in handy. :)

Nihil Obstat
Jan 25th 2008, 11:28 PM
I'm wondering how Matthew 27:52-53 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." plays into your summation?

Though I admit I haven't looked into it very deeply, I've got an idea that this may be explained by the use of the word saints as a catch all phrase.

I agree with Mograce2U...

Acts 2:29
"Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day."

See also 1 Cor. 15:23... - Lk.11

yoSAMite
Jan 26th 2008, 12:18 AM
I'm sorry I must not have expressed my question well. By the way I am a pre-tribber.

You summarized your argument as follows.
"dead rise before the living, and the dead rise after the great tribulation, therefore the living do not rise until after the great tribulation."

Here we have some saints who obviously were dead and were raised and this was before the great tribulation. I'm wondering how this aspect plays into your summation. I see this as a contradiction to your stated view.

My opinion is that these verses stand against your summation, but I'm open to your persuading me. The point I believe you are missing is that there seems to be different but equal classes of saints.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 26th 2008, 04:59 AM
Wow. You really ought to have broken this down into bit-sized pieces for me rather than trying to choke me with all this... but, I will happily answer your questions. They're actually the exact same questions that all pre-tribbers ask, so none of them are troubling to me, or refute my opening post. So, strap on your seat belt: here we go!


Daniel 12:2:
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Clarify why this dosen't say all.
Daniel's prophesy puts the righteous and unrighteous back to back, right?

No, Daniel does not - he is only seeing the righteous, and only of the righteous before Jesus sets foot on the earth. You think that all converts spend their life growing to know the Father? No. Most converts are happy to pray a prayer, and then live in compromise the rest of their life. This is why he sees some rising to shame and everlasting contempt. Not a favorite passage for those in compromise, but a truth found elsewhere in Scripture.


Revelation 20:4-6:
4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years"

Daniel does not make a distinction here that there is a 1000 year GAP. This first resurrection is not a one time thing, this is the completion of the resurrection from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

The second is Revelation 20:11-15.

Yep. Daniel only sees the first resurrection, which only the righteous partake in.


Why are you so confident that the Church must suffer the judgment of God?

Surely there is ample Scripture to convince anyone that we are objects of His grace not objects of His wrath!

Acts 15:12-17:
Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘ After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.

James tells us AFTER God takes out a people, these things will occur.

By "take out of them a people", you're saying that this is the pre-trib rapture? The context is clearly salvation and holiness...


2 Thessalonians 2:1-12:
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
"Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The Holy Spirit in believers must be the subject of this passage as the restrainer, for in verse 7 says HE, and we know that the Holy Spirit is in no one but a born from above believer. The Holy Spirit is to be with us forever, according to John 14:16:

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—"

Satan would have brought in the man of sin long ago if the Holy Spirit were not abiding with us as God continues to call out His people from the Gentiles (and Jews), by necessity the Church must be removed with the He in verse 7, the restrainer, BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed.

See my answer to what is restraining here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=109229&highlight=restrainer) (see also this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1406899&postcount=12)).


In Revelation 19:1-10 you have the judgment seat of Christ where believers are judged for rewards, married to the Lamb, and participate in the marriage supper, this is before the return of Christ which commences in verse 11 which you are saying is when the rapture and this resurrection is to occur. How can the Bride accomplish this if she has been on earth being tormented in the time of Jacob's trouble?

When Jesus is seen on a white horse in Rev. 19:11, He's not returning then. That's not what John is seeing or saying.

What OT passage is John seeing and referencing...?


Who are the called in Rev. 19:9? Surely we all know that a bride is not called or invited to her own wedding, for she has been made ready and waiting. Guests are called to a wedding. How about the Old Testament Saints, so how did they get there before Jesus returns to earth in glory in verse 11 and as above before they are resurrected?

Not sure I understand your question here... Jesus spoke quite a bit about these wedding guests. See esp. Matt. 25:31-46...

Do you have an understanding of those who survive the tribulation, yet deny both the Antichrist and Jesus, and live on into the millennial reign of Jesus to populate the world? Some pre-tribbers do... just wondering.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

The seventh trumpet you refer to, why did you insert seventh?

I'm not inserting the word "seventh" - I'm equating. Have I not made myself clear in previous posts?


The interpretation you give does not bring comfort that I should think I will have to endure the worst trouble and sorrow ever known to the world.

1 Thessalonians 1:10;
10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

1 Thessalonians 2:19:
"For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?"

1 Thessalonians 5:9:
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing."

Colossians 3:1-4:
"If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."

Wrestle over this question! It's a good question! Why do post-tribbers have comfort? Bring this one in prayer!


If your theory is correct, how can we appear with Him, do we meet Him in the clouds only to immediately come back? What sense does that make?

Have you ever studied the meaning of "parousia"...?


Revelation 3:7-11 is the Lords address to the true church, is as follows:
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."

You build your case on Scripture concerning resurrections, there is less specific Scripture on the subject, time and order than there is on our being kept from the wrath of God.

First off, this is specific to a specific church at a specific time, and not applicable to all saints throughout history. Secondly, when He says "I also will keep you from", that means in the Greek, "I also will keep you through"... in other words, He will protect them through the hour of trial, not remove them from it.


You refute that Enoch was a picture of the rapture before the flood, I'll concede that to you, Noah on the other hand was most definitely spared before the judgment of God on the world, Lot and His family were also spared before the judgment of God on Sodom, wasn't Rahab spared because she hid the spies?

Spared from it... or kept through it...?


You can believe as you wish, as for me the Scriptures promise tribulations (troubles) in this life, but my rewards are heavenly, I shall not suffer the judgments of God because of the blood of Jesus Christ was shed to cover my sin.

Romans 8:1-5:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit."

Post-tribbers don't believe that we will suffer the wrath of God. Did Moses suffer the wrath of God, or did the Jews in Goshen? Or did they suffer the wrath of man, as Revelation says the saints will? Didn't Moses call in by prayer the plagues upon Egypt, and doesn't Revelation testify of the same?


2 Corinthians 5:6-8:
"So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

This issue is only reuniting our souls with new glorified bodies, our souls will be with the Lord the moment we die. In the case of the raptured, for them the two will happen simultaneously.

I can't wait! Amen! (I think I missed your point...)


If you do your homework, you will see that the purpose of the tribulation is the vengeance of the Lord on those who are disobedient and did not believe the gospel of God, regardless of what the prophesies appear to say concerning times and order, the Jews missed their Messiah, nearly all of them, we have so much evidence that the Church is being called out, Israel and the Jews who still reject the Messiah will endure the great tribulation, do you fall into this category?

It's not so much about having the right information as it is to have the right paradigm. Again, by being called out means called into holiness (to be separate for the Lord). Now, what do we see before any of the judgments are poured out? The mercy seat - the throne - surrounded by an emerald rainbow, clearly symbolizing God's mercy and covenant to His people. All judgments must pass through that rainbow of mercy, and come to the earth with the fragrance of mercy.

And what do we see just prior to Jesus' return? An angel with a rainbow over his head! Again, testifying to God's mercy and covenant to His creation! Our Father gives them chance after chance to come to repentance and salvation! He does not delight in the death of the wicked!

And though this is too vast a topic to address as much as I'd like here (perhaps you can start a separate thread for this), but God is coming to save Israel, and He will. The book of Isaiah promises this all throughout it - give it a fresh read, and you'll see what I mean! Read Hosea ch.1-3!

What you're describing sounds more like Hell and the lake of fire than it does of the great tribulation...


Matthew 27:24-25:
"When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”

Seeing as Matthew is addressed to the Jew, and if we interpret with that in mind, much of the Olivet discourse would be clearer. The statement the Jews made in verse 25 carries a huge implication to the Jew. Keeping the Church and the unbelieving Jew separate clears up much confusion.

Again, if you'd like to discuss natural Israel and Abraham's descendants of the flesh, I'd love to, but in a separate thread where we can give it the time, energy, prayer, and focus necessary! Until then, if interested, read through this thread (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=94598&highlight=natural+israel) of mine...


I'm done giving you Scripture to "refute this plain logic", it isn't understood logically, it is understood spiritually.

I totally agree with you! When the correct understanding of the Father's love is revealed by the Holy Spirit, you will find the post-trib rapture to be very comforting, and the pre-trib doctrine to be quite uncharacteristic of our Father!

- Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Jan 26th 2008, 05:20 AM
I'm sorry I must not have expressed my question well. By the way I am a pre-tribber.

You summarized your argument as follows.
"dead rise before the living, and the dead rise after the great tribulation, therefore the living do not rise until after the great tribulation."

Here we have some saints who obviously were dead and were raised and this was before the great tribulation. I'm wondering how this aspect plays into your summation. I see this as a contradiction to your stated view.

My opinion is that these verses stand against your summation, but I'm open to your persuading me. The point I believe you are missing is that there seems to be different but equal classes of saints.

Oh, I gotcha now. Well, I don't see this as differing classes of saints, but rather as differing classes of resurrections. Let me explain. The Jews didn't have different words for resuscitation and resurrection. These Jews who, at Jesus' death, arose from their graves, were resuscitated - not resurrected, though the word to describe them coming back to life would have been "resurrected" (though Matthew doesn't use this word, but he would have had to if he did, is my point). So to differentiate between the two when spoken of in close context, authors would use the phrase "better resurrection" to talk of the resurrection (Heb. 11:35, a reference to a passage from Maccabees).

Does this make sense? - Lk.11

Kahtar
Jan 26th 2008, 03:27 PM
Okay, astrongerthanhe, you wanted refutation on those passages in the OP. Here ya go:
:D
Isaiah 26:19-21 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
(20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

From a pretrib viewpoint, these verses agree, for we are hidden away, for a moment, a little season, UNTIL the indignation is overpast. We won't be there to go through it. We'll be hidden away. Where? In our chamber, the place prepared. What chamber? The Wedding Chamber.
Daniel 11:36-12:3
(36) And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
(37) Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
(38) But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
(39) Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
(40) And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
(41) He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
(42) He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
(43) But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.
(44) But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
(45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
(3) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

I see nothing here to indicate a chronological rendering. I do see all of these things occuring at that time, the time of the end. Many more things will occur at that time as well.
'At that time thy people shall be delivered' - when? At the time of the end. The Isaiah passage tells us they will be delivered and hid away during the indignation.
Sorry, but from a pretrib perspective, there is nothing here that contradicts it, nor does it prove in my mind (as it seems to in yours) that the trib is post rather than pre. In fact, it seems to confirm to me a pretrib.;)

Mograce2U
Jan 26th 2008, 03:59 PM
Kahtar,
I am not sure you want to make "chamber" the wedding chamber since its reference is to a bathroom - a place of privacy. Isaiah is using it as a euphemism for the grave. His context is that though they will sleep in the dust of the earth for a little while, their hope is in the resurrection from the dead. That is when the earth will disclose its slain and they will be justified and redeemed - and raised from death.

vinsight4u8
Jan 26th 2008, 04:46 PM
In Daniel 11 you need to start the time of the man of sin king at verse 21. When that vile person stands up is the time of the king that will take Israel captive and finish the 70 years left for Babylon to rule the nations.


In Isaiah 26 is the prophecy as to how after the dead rise (including Isaiah) will come the time to do some punishing by God. Israel is not to be hurt during that time so she is to hide. God has mercy on Israel and goes after the wicked that followed Babylon.

The trib time is Satan's wrath and his face after Israel and the nations. Israel will be protected during the time of God's wrath later, so she is just to wait it out as in shut her doors till God's indignation is past (45 days/ the seven vials).
For at the 1335th day people won't be holy as in changed to eternal life, but they can be blessed and allowed to stay alive while Jesus begins His earthly reign with a rod of iron.

Kahtar
Jan 26th 2008, 04:51 PM
Kahtar,
I am not sure you want to make "chamber" the wedding chamber since its reference is to a bathroom - a place of privacy. Isaiah is using it as a euphemism for the grave. His context is that though they will sleep in the dust of the earth for a little while, their hope is in the resurrection from the dead. That is when the earth will disclose its slain and they will be justified and redeemed - and raised from death.
H2315 חדר cheder kheh'-der From H2314; an apartment (usually literally): - ( inner) chamber, innermost (-ward) part, parlour, + south, X within.
H2315 Strongs #2315: AHLB#: 2150 (N)

2150) Rdh% (Rdh%HhDR)ac:[B] Surround co: Chamber ab: ?: The surrounding walls of a chamber providing privacy and security. [from: dh - as surrounded by walls with a door]
V) Rdh% (Rdh%Hh-DR) - Surround: To encircle. [freq. 1] (vf: Paal) |kjv: enter| {str: 2314}
Nm) Rdh% (Rdh%Hh-DR) - Chamber: A place surrounded by walls. An inner place as hidden or secret. [freq. 38] |kjv: chamber, inner, inward, innermost, parlour, south, within| {str: 2315}

Where in the wolrd do you get the idea it references a bathroom?

'my people' would include both the dead and the living, from my perspective.

vinsight4u8
Jan 26th 2008, 04:51 PM
"....thou shalt stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
Daniel 12:13

Notice what else is in this verse?
Daniel is allowed to go his way....as in he will rest, then stand.

But what about those people at the 1335th day point?
Answer:
Verse 12 shows that they must wait
come to that day

As if saying, after the time when Daniel rises from the dead comes the time when anyone else wanting to be blessed must wait and come to the end of the next 45 days prophecy point and then can only be blessed.

No one in the grave is blessed at the 45 day point that comes on the 1335th day.

vinsight4u8
Jan 26th 2008, 04:54 PM
Why the specific time of 45 more days?

Answer:
God told Micah of the OT that He would punish the Assyrian for the same length of time that it took Israel to come out of Egypt.

I Kings 16 tells us that it took 45 days as to the sign that God had then brought Israel out of Egypt.


Micah 7:15

David Taylor
Jan 26th 2008, 04:57 PM
I'm wondering how Matthew 27:52-53 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." plays into your summation?

Though I admit I haven't looked into it very deeply, I've got an idea that this may be explained by the use of the word saints as a catch all phrase.



These are not raised glorified, incorruptible and into immortal bodies....like occurs at Jesus return.

Their resurrection was back to present corruptible mortal life; to be a witness of our Lord's accomplishment on Calvary to the people of Jerusalem...in similar resurrection manner as Lazarus, Dorcus, Tabitha, Jarius daughter, the Shumanite woman's son, etc..

So far, only Jesus alone, has been raised glorified, incorruptible, and immortal with a new body; and noone will follow in this pattern until His return "at the end" as described by His resurrection at His coming in 1 Corinthians 15.

vinsight4u8
Jan 26th 2008, 05:00 PM
I'm sorry I must not have expressed my question well. By the way I am a pre-tribber.

You summarized your argument as follows.
"dead rise before the living, and the dead rise after the great tribulation, therefore the living do not rise until after the great tribulation."

Here we have some saints who obviously were dead and were raised and this was before the great tribulation. I'm wondering how this aspect plays into your summation. I see this as a contradiction to your stated view.

My opinion is that these verses stand against your summation, but I'm open to your persuading me. The point I believe you are missing is that there seems to be different but equal classes of saints.


Look at John chapter 5 and see how only Jesus was given life in Himself. It speaks of how some in the grave would hear the voice of the Son of God and live, but not eternal life yet for them as that takes getting life from God in themselves.

See Rev. 11 as to the two witnesses and what happens to them when they rise from the dead.


John 5 speaks more to us as we find out that we are not to marvel that some were to hear the voice of the Son of God and live again (but not eternally yet) for there is much more to come.

the good - unto the resurrection of life
and evil - unto the resurrection of dammmnaation

vinsight4u8
Jan 26th 2008, 05:02 PM
1 Timothy 6:16
"Who only hath immortality..."

quiet dove
Jan 26th 2008, 05:03 PM
Kahtar,
I am not sure you want to make "chamber" the wedding chamber since its reference is to a bathroom - a place of privacy. Isaiah is using it as a euphemism for the grave. His context is that though they will sleep in the dust of the earth for a little while, their hope is in the resurrection from the dead. That is when the earth will disclose its slain and they will be justified and redeemed - and raised from death.


How is is a reference to a bathroom. Even a place of privacy does not always equate to a bathroom.

Kahtar
Jan 26th 2008, 05:04 PM
These are not raised glorified, incorruptible and into immortal bodies....like occurs at Jesus return.How do you know this, since it doesn't exactly say?

Mograce2U
Jan 26th 2008, 05:07 PM
H2315 חדר cheder kheh'-der From H2314; an apartment (usually literally): - ( inner) chamber, innermost (-ward) part, parlour, + south, X within.
H2315 Strongs #2315: AHLB#: 2150 (N)

2150) Rdh% (Rdh%HhDR)ac:[B] Surround co: Chamber ab: ?: The surrounding walls of a chamber providing privacy and security. [from: dh - as surrounded by walls with a door]
V) Rdh% (Rdh%Hh-DR) - Surround: To encircle. [freq. 1] (vf: Paal) |kjv: enter| {str: 2314}
Nm) Rdh% (Rdh%Hh-DR) - Chamber: A place surrounded by walls. An inner place as hidden or secret. [freq. 38] |kjv: chamber, inner, inward, innermost, parlour, south, within| {str: 2315}

Where in the wolrd do you get the idea it references a bathroom?

'my people' would include both the dead and the living, from my perspective.
From its root which is H2314 Chadar. In Ezekiel 40 you find the chambers in the temple use different words - which is more likely to be a parallel for the wedding chamber you are looking for. There is also that story about the king who was killed sitting on the john while his servants stood outside his chamber. Which I can't seem to find at the moment to see if it is the same word.

David Taylor
Jan 26th 2008, 05:07 PM
How do you know this, since it doesn't exactly say?

I Corinthians 15 does exactly say it.

Jesus is the only one to this point, and until His return, who is raised in that manner of Resurrection. (Glorified, Incoruptible, immortal, perfect body)

We could assume Lazarus was raised incorupptible and perfect, or Jairius daughter, or the Shumanite woman's sun that Elijah raised way back in the O.T......but that interpretation would be in conflict with I Corinthians 15; among other passages.

The Matthew 27 resurrection can only be a return to mortal life like the others, without scripture being broken.

vinsight4u8
Jan 26th 2008, 05:08 PM
In Daniel 11 don't take "at the time of the end" to mean anything other than -the time of the end of the battles between the king of the north and the south.

Daniel let us know where to start the end-time passages by writing how the angel told him that a vision story started with verse 14.

quiet dove
Jan 26th 2008, 05:11 PM
I Corinthians 15 does exactly say it.

Jesus is the only one to this point, and until His return, who is raised in that manner of Resurrection. (Glorified, Incoruptible, immortal, perfect body)

We could assume Lazarus was raised incorupptible and perfect, or Jairius daughter, or the Shumanite woman's sun that Elijah raised way back in the O.T......but that interpretation would be in conflict with I Corinthians 15; among other passages.

The Matthew 27 resurrection can only be a return to mortal life like the others, without scripture being broken.

I believe the statment that these were raised after His resurrection makes the stronger support for them being resurrected immortal. Jesus still being the first. Jesus raising someone from the dead back to mortal life was nothing new. Personally, I would be more than disappointed to have to come back however many years down the road, be it one or fifty and have to figure out getting a job a surviving and so on...bummer for them if they were simply brought back to life as opposed to resurrected immortal.

Kahtar
Jan 26th 2008, 05:12 PM
From its root which is H2314 Chadar. In Ezekiel 40 you find the chambers in the temple use different words - which is more likely to be a parallel for the wedding chamber you are looking for. There is also that story about the king who was killed sitting on the john while his servants stood outside his chamber. Which I can't seem to find at the moment to see if it is the same word.
V) Rdh% (Rdh%Hh-DR) - Surround: To encircle. [freq. 1] (vf: Paal) |kjv: enter| {str: 2314}

I have no doubt it was used to describe such a place. I also have no doubt it would or could be used to describe many other places where privacy is found.
Very weak arguement in my perspective.

vinsight4u8
Jan 26th 2008, 05:13 PM
When is Jesus coming back?

Let Him give you the answer in Rev. 22:11-12!

when the holy stay holy
and the wicked stay wicked

and it is time for reward


7th trumpet reward announcement at Rev. 11:18!
Jesus can't come back till this point.

Also the bible is clear that He went to Heaven till it is time to make His enemies His footstool.

vinsight4u8
Jan 26th 2008, 05:16 PM
Rev. 1:18
"I {am} he that liveth, and was dead....alive for evermore..."

Mograce2U
Jan 26th 2008, 05:54 PM
V) Rdh% (Rdh%Hh-DR) - Surround: To encircle. [freq. 1] (vf: Paal) |kjv: enter| {str: 2314}

I have no doubt it was used to describe such a place. I also have no doubt it would or could be used to describe many other places where privacy is found.
Very weak arguement in my perspective.Perhaps, but no weaker than the idea that Isaiah was speaking of a rapture to take place 1,000's of years down the road. ;)

Mograce2U
Jan 26th 2008, 06:26 PM
David,

So far, only Jesus alone, has been raised glorified, incorruptible, and immortal with a new body; and noone will follow in this pattern until His return "at the end" as described by His resurrection at His coming in 1 Corinthians 15.If you mean that Jesus is the only One who we know for certain has been raised from the dead - I agree. Those bodies who rose up out of their tombs at the time He was raised give us another visible picture of an unseen reality that was also happening.

Paul's argument in 1 Cor 15 is all about our assurance that this event which we cannot see was in fact occurring - the resurrection of the dead. I know this will go over like a lead balloon because many think there is another "visible" coming of the Lord that must still occur in order for this to happen. But that is exactly what Paul is arguing about in his discussion about faith in the unseen and natural bodies that die vs spiritual bodies which are raised. Jesus' victory over the devil, His enemies which pierced Him and death itself, is a spiritual reality to those who have put their hope in Him and have received the Holy Spirit. Death held sway because of sin and the law which gave it power, but Christ has the victory over all by breaking that power at the cross.

The evil communication which corrupts good manners (causing one to sin) is the evil speaking that comes from unbelief and ignorance about the hope that we have in Christ. And he explains it by addressing the question of doubt he raises about those who ask How are the dead raised? The reason for this doubt is because no one can see it! Not because it is not true. Paul speaks of the change that will come to the living when Christ appears - when the OT saints are then raised as a group. That change is what they were to wait for as they continued to serve the Lord in faith. But he also says the dead in Christ are already rising. The pre-cross saints were apparently to be raised as a group. But that is not the case for us who are alive and remain. We will be raised up at death because this event marks the victory we have. This is the hope Paul is explaining to them - a hope they will not "see" with their eyes - beforehand that is.

It does not surprise me that the resurrection of the dead is thought to still be a far off future thing. We apparently still require a sign and yet are unable to recognize the sign we have been given. And it behooves men to teach about our hope in a way which is not a hope at all. Lest we find out we do not need them and draw near to God as we have been instructed to do! The kingdom has either been delivered up to the Father or it has not so that God can be all in all in His children. If we have committed our spirits to Him then our lives are in His hands and we will put on immortality as a garment when death comes. Just like we see those saints doing throughout Revelation...

Kahtar
Jan 26th 2008, 06:37 PM
Perhaps, but no weaker than the idea that Isaiah was speaking of a rapture to take place 1,000's of years down the road. ;)You mean you don't think Isaiah was referring to the resurrection here? Interesting. To what then was he referring?
Isaiah 26:19-21 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise
Looks to me like that's exactly what he was talking about, albeit thousands of years down the road.

Mograce2U
Jan 26th 2008, 06:52 PM
You mean you don't think Isaiah was referring to the resurrection here? Interesting. To what then was he referring?
Isaiah 26:19-21 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise
Looks to me like that's exactly what he was talking about, albeit thousands of years down the road.Isaiah's context is during the time the 10 tribes were taken into captivity by Assyria. It was the warning that Judah was to observe prior to her being taken to Babylon. Their future hope was always in the resurrection which hope was to come with the arrival of Messiah. The pre-trib view wants to take all of this out of its context and apply it to a far future hope in the 2nd coming of the Lord which pretty much ignores what His first advent was intended to accomplish - their salvation. The end which is in view here in Isaiah is that time.

John146
Jan 26th 2008, 08:35 PM
I believe the statment that these were raised after His resurrection makes the stronger support for them being resurrected immortal. Jesus still being the first. Jesus raising someone from the dead back to mortal life was nothing new. Personally, I would be more than disappointed to have to come back however many years down the road, be it one or fifty and have to figure out getting a job a surviving and so on...bummer for them if they were simply brought back to life as opposed to resurrected immortal.

You are missing the order that is described for us in 1 Corinthians 15.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This passage says that Christ was the first to rise from the dead in an immortal body. At His coming, those that are His will also rise from the dead and will be changed and receive immortal bodies. No one will receive an immortal body until Christ comes at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52).

John146
Jan 26th 2008, 08:39 PM
David,
If you mean that Jesus is the only One who we know for certain has been raised from the dead - I agree. Those bodies who rose up out of their tombs at the time He was raised give us another visible picture of an unseen reality that was also happening.

Paul's argument in 1 Cor 15 is all about our assurance that this event which we cannot see was in fact occurring - the resurrection of the dead. I know this will go over like a lead balloon because many think there is another "visible" coming of the Lord that must still occur in order for this to happen. But that is exactly what Paul is arguing about in his discussion about faith in the unseen and natural bodies that die vs spiritual bodies which are raised. Jesus' victory over the devil, His enemies which pierced Him and death itself, is a spiritual reality to those who have put their hope in Him and have received the Holy Spirit. Death held sway because of sin and the law which gave it power, but Christ has the victory over all by breaking that power at the cross.

The evil communication which corrupts good manners (causing one to sin) is the evil speaking that comes from unbelief and ignorance about the hope that we have in Christ. And he explains it by addressing the question of doubt he raises about those who ask How are the dead raised? The reason for this doubt is because no one can see it! Not because it is not true. Paul speaks of the change that will come to the living when Christ appears - when the OT saints are then raised as a group. That change is what they were to wait for as they continued to serve the Lord in faith. But he also says the dead in Christ are already rising. The pre-cross saints were apparently to be raised as a group. But that is not the case for us who are alive and remain. We will be raised up at death because this event marks the victory we have. This is the hope Paul is explaining to them - a hope they will not "see" with their eyes - beforehand that is.

It does not surprise me that the resurrection of the dead is thought to still be a far off future thing. We apparently still require a sign and yet are unable to recognize the sign we have been given. And it behooves men to teach about our hope in a way which is not a hope at all. Lest we find out we do not need them and draw near to God as we have been instructed to do! The kingdom has either been delivered up to the Father or it has not so that God can be all in all in His children. If we have committed our spirits to Him then our lives are in His hands and we will put on immortality as a garment when death comes. Just like we see those saints doing throughout Revelation...

Ah, so the last trumpet has already sounded? Interesting. :rolleyes:

Kahtar
Jan 26th 2008, 11:22 PM
Isaiah's context is during the time the 10 tribes were taken into captivity by Assyria. It was the warning that Judah was to observe prior to her being taken to Babylon. Their future hope was always in the resurrection which hope was to come with the arrival of Messiah. The pre-trib view wants to take all of this out of its context and apply it to a far future hope in the 2nd coming of the Lord which pretty much ignores what His first advent was intended to accomplish - their salvation. The end which is in view here in Isaiah is that time.So then you believe the resurrection of the saints has already taken place?:hmm: Okay...................

Mograce2U
Jan 27th 2008, 04:05 AM
Ah, so the last trumpet has already sounded? Interesting. :rolleyes:Why not? Israel is the one who listened for trumpets. No trumpets sound for those gathered to Mt. Zion.

(Heb 12:22-28 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, {23} To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {24} And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {25} See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: {26} Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. {27} And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. {28} Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

What trumpet sounds to gather the NT church? The trumpet was to wake the dead...

Mark F
Jan 27th 2008, 04:53 AM
John 14:1-3
1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

This promise of being with God in heaven was not something that the prophets wrote about, wasn't what they wrote of an earthly kingdom?

Isaiah 2:2-5
2 "Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
Thatthe mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
5 O house of Jacob, come and let us walk
In the light of the LORD."


Isaiah 9:6-7;
6 "For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

Isaiah 11
1 "There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
3 His delight is in the fear of the LORD,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
6 “ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
10 “ And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
And the people of Ammon shall obey them.
15 The LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,
And strike it in the seven streams,
And make men cross over dryshod.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people
Who will be left from Assyria,
As it was for Israel
In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt."

Isaiah 32:1;
1 "Behold, a king will reign in righteousness,
And princes will rule with justice."

Isaiah 35;
1 "The wilderness and the wasteland shall be glad for them,
And the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose;
2 It shall blossom abundantly and rejoice,
Even with joy and singing.
The glory of Lebanon shall be given to it,
The excellence of Carmel and Sharon.
They shall see the glory of the LORD,
The excellency of our God.
3 Strengthen the weak hands,
And make firm the feeble knees.
4 Say to those who are fearful-hearted,

“ Be strong, do not fear!
Behold, your God will come with vengeance,
With the recompense of God;
He will come and save you.”
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened,
And the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then the lame shall leap like a deer,
And the tongue of the dumb sing.
For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness,
And streams in the desert.
7 The parched ground shall become a pool,
And the thirsty land springs of water;
In the habitation of jackals, where each lay,
There shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8 A highway shall be there, and a road,
And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.
The unclean shall not pass over it,
But it shall be for others.
Whoever walks the road, although a fool,
Shall not go astray.
9 No lion shall be there,
Nor shall any ravenous beast go up on it;
It shall not be found there.
But the redeemed shall walk there,
10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away."


Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

Here Jesus speaks to the churches and called Himself the Bright and Morning Star, this we know is only seen early morning before light, so to see this star one must not be sleeping, he must be up and looking to see the morning star while the world is asleep.

Malachi 4;
1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
4 “ Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

This again in Malachi is a prophet who is descibing an earthly scene, and the One to come is The Sun of Righteousness, I see this as two different things, The Sun of Righteousness will come for the whole world to see in glory, to the earth and set up His kingdom, but the Bright and Morning Star will come while the world is asleep. From this thought the theif in the night seems rather fitting.

The Morning Star is also mentioned in Rev. 2:28 to the true believers in the Church of Thyatira that are pure among the bad, He will send the Bright and Morning Star.

2 Peter 1:19
"And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;"

Isn't the time of the tribulation referred to "the day of the Lord"? Peter here mentions the dawn of "the day" and includes the Morning Star. Could it be that the Morning Star will come before the Sun of Righteousness? The events of the time of tribulation will allow for people to have some concept of when the Sun of Righteousness will appear. In Daniel are these words that seem to make sense in light of this;

Daniel 12:4
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Just some things that may stir some thoughts.(sorry it's a long one)

Mograce2U
Jan 27th 2008, 04:44 PM
MarkF,
Those were the exact same passages I was looking into this morning before I logged on here. :hug:

Nihil Obstat
Jan 28th 2008, 05:46 AM
Whoa, quite a bit has happened since I last wrote in here... let's see if I can clear some things up...


David,
If you mean that Jesus is the only One who we know for certain has been raised from the dead - I agree. Those bodies who rose up out of their tombs at the time He was raised give us another visible picture of an unseen reality that was also happening.

Paul's argument in 1 Cor 15 is all about our assurance that this event which we cannot see was in fact occurring - the resurrection of the dead. I know this will go over like a lead balloon because many think there is another "visible" coming of the Lord that must still occur in order for this to happen. But that is exactly what Paul is arguing about in his discussion about faith in the unseen and natural bodies that die vs spiritual bodies which are raised. Jesus' victory over the devil, His enemies which pierced Him and death itself, is a spiritual reality to those who have put their hope in Him and have received the Holy Spirit. Death held sway because of sin and the law which gave it power, but Christ has the victory over all by breaking that power at the cross.

The evil communication which corrupts good manners (causing one to sin) is the evil speaking that comes from unbelief and ignorance about the hope that we have in Christ. And he explains it by addressing the question of doubt he raises about those who ask How are the dead raised? The reason for this doubt is because no one can see it! Not because it is not true. Paul speaks of the change that will come to the living when Christ appears - when the OT saints are then raised as a group. That change is what they were to wait for as they continued to serve the Lord in faith. But he also says the dead in Christ are already rising. The pre-cross saints were apparently to be raised as a group. But that is not the case for us who are alive and remain. We will be raised up at death because this event marks the victory we have. This is the hope Paul is explaining to them - a hope they will not "see" with their eyes - beforehand that is.

It does not surprise me that the resurrection of the dead is thought to still be a far off future thing. We apparently still require a sign and yet are unable to recognize the sign we have been given. And it behooves men to teach about our hope in a way which is not a hope at all. Lest we find out we do not need them and draw near to God as we have been instructed to do! The kingdom has either been delivered up to the Father or it has not so that God can be all in all in His children. If we have committed our spirits to Him then our lives are in His hands and we will put on immortality as a garment when death comes. Just like we see those saints doing throughout Revelation...

Question: Do you believe that Jesus received His resurrected physical body when He departed from His tomb on the first day of the week following His crucifixion? Because that's what Paul's talking about here... physical spiritual bodies (1 Cor. 15:4, 12-23) - not what people have in heaven and hell now, which are not physical. And because Paul's talking about physical spiritual bodies, he is talking about a future day to come, and not about what happens every day when people die.

- Lk.11

Nihil Obstat
Jan 28th 2008, 06:18 AM
Okay, astrongerthanhe, you wanted refutation on those passages in the OP. Here ya go:
:D
Isaiah 26:19-21 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
(20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

From a pretrib viewpoint, these verses agree, for we are hidden away, for a moment, a little season, UNTIL the indignation is overpast. We won't be there to go through it. We'll be hidden away. Where? In our chamber, the place prepared. What chamber? The Wedding Chamber.

Isaiah's apocalypse, chs.24-27, is obviously about the last days - the great tribulation. Hopefully we have an agreement on this point. Now, Isaiah is lovingly advising his brethren to hide themselves in their chambers "until the indignation is past". But this is the Lord's indignation (righteous anger) against His enemies - the enemies of His people; Isaiah's brethren. So how can this speak of a pre-trib rapture, seeing as how the Lord is judging the inhabitants of the earth who are seeking to destroy Isaiah's brethren? They'd have to still be present on the earth for this to make sense! And Isaiah says to these people - the survivors of this apocalyptic time which is still to come - that they shall rise *with* him. This proves that the only rapture is the post-trib rapture. Did I communicate that clearly?


Daniel 11:36-12:3
(36) And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
(37) Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
(38) But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
(39) Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
(40) And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
(41) He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
(42) He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
(43) But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.
(44) But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
(45) And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
(3) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

I see nothing here to indicate a chronological rendering. I do see all of these things occuring at that time, the time of the end. Many more things will occur at that time as well.
'At that time thy people shall be delivered' - when? At the time of the end. The Isaiah passage tells us they will be delivered and hid away during the indignation.
Sorry, but from a pretrib perspective, there is nothing here that contradicts it, nor does it prove in my mind (as it seems to in yours) that the trib is post rather than pre. In fact, it seems to confirm to me a pretrib.;)

You don't see Daniel chs.11-12 being chronological? How then can we discuss this passage if you disagree with me on this? There are over 100 fulfilled prophecies in this one passage alone, and all came to pass just as was foretold! (And if anyone wants undeniable proof that this was written by Daniel when he said he wrote it, and not by someone else at a far later date, just ask me...) But these fulfillments stop at v.36, because this last part of the prophecy is still yet to occur!

When shall the people be delivered? Look up the language of Luke 1:46-55, and of Luke 1:67-79... the Holy Spirit says that when Jesus was conceived Israel's redemption was accomplished! Yet this had to be proleptic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proleptic)...! So when will Israel be delivered? The language here matches the language in Luke - when "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time." Clearly after the great tribulation - how could it be before?

But let's supplement these with Paul's words in 1 Cor. 15:51-58... Paul says of himself, just like Isaiah spoke of himself, that at the last trumpet he would receive his physical resurrection body! And in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 Paul promised that the dead would rise first (see also 1 Cor. 15:52)... Paul's dead! So this again disproves a pre-trib rapture. (I'm probably the first person ever to use Paul being presently dead as proof that the pre-trib rapture is false... hehe.)

Looking forward to your responses! - Lk.11

Mograce2U
Jan 28th 2008, 02:53 PM
Whoa, quite a bit has happened since I last wrote in here... let's see if I can clear some things up...
...
Question: Do you believe that Jesus received His resurrected physical body when He departed from His tomb on the first day of the week following His crucifixion? Because that's what Paul's talking about here... physical spiritual bodies (1 Cor. 15:4, 12-23) - not what people have in heaven and hell now, which are not physical. And because Paul's talking about physical spiritual bodies, he is talking about a future day to come, and not about what happens every day when people die.

- Lk.11My belief is still under construction on this issue. I think we have 2 things being said here. Jesus is the only man who never knew sin, and so His body was not defiled by it. I do believe the same body that died was what He was resurrected to, and that is what the disciples saw - much like Lazarus when he was raised from the dead. Only Jesus' body saw no corruption, while Lazarus' did - yet Lazarus was healed. 1 Cor 15:50 seems clear that corruption does not inherit incorruption, and so we see that Lazarus was raised back to earthly life (and sin), not eternal life at that time. Jesus' resurrection is obviously different.

When we get to John's vision of the risen Christ in Revelation, we see Jesus appears in a glorified state - not like he was seen upon the earth. Yet while on the earth, He could appear and disappear to His disciples. So what is it we are to know? Possibly the Revelation account is symbolic, since the description John sees lines up with other descriptions given of the Ancient of Days. Or it could be that the transformation Jesus underwent was completed in His ascension as He transitioned from earth into the heavenly realm, where His full glory is seen.

Since Paul was blinded by his vision of Jesus, he gives us no description. And Stephen only says this:

(Acts 7:55-56 KJV) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, {56} And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

So when Paul differentiates between what he refers to as our earthly body made of flesh and blood after the image of Adam, and a spiritual body which is after the image of Jesus - what exactly does that mean?

(1 Cor 15:50 KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

(1 Cor 15:53-55 KJV) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. {54} So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. {55} O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The word translated put on [1746 enduo] is used to describe one putting on clothes and may be literal or figurative. In Revelation we see garments given to all who arrive in heaven. Are these garments spiritual bodies they are being given? Sounds like it to me.

Something about the resurrection of the dead and the change which occured to the living at that time, seems to be a change from the temporal realm to the spiritual realm. For the dead who rise that is a change of place, but for those who are alive and remain it is a spiritual transition which has less to do with our physical bodies than it does with our free access into the heavenly realm.

And whatever our spiritual bodies may be like when they are given to us after these bodies have died, will be like that of Jesus' because His seed is in us. But He is the only Man who ever entered heaven - as a man. None of us are going to ascend into heaven in the manner that He did - bodily. We must be disembodied first because sin has defiled our bodies and death is what sets us free from sin. We must make the transition as souls, then a new spiritual body is given to us. And we see that Jesus died in a like manner, that is He really died in order to bring us justification and forgiveness of sin.

The first man Adam was created out of the dust of the earth. But that is not the source for our spiritual bodies.

(1 Cor 15:47-48 KJV) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. {48} As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

(1 Cor 15:44-46 KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. {45} And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. {46} Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (Note: the translators have added was made - Jesus was always a quickening spirit!)

The seed that is planted in us by the Holy Spirit is what brings us into eternal life at death when the old man/body dies and the new man/Spirit quickened soul is set free to enter glory. I see no reason to think that we need wait for more than a wink of an eye at that time before we find ourselves clothed with immortality.

(Gen 3:19 KJV) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

(Psa 104:29 KJV) Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

(Eccl 12:7 KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I am inclined to think that what came from the dust stays there.

John146
Jan 28th 2008, 03:19 PM
Why not? Israel is the one who listened for trumpets. No trumpets sound for those gathered to Mt. Zion.

(Heb 12:22-28 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, {23} To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {24} And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {25} See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: {26} Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. {27} And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. {28} Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

What trumpet sounds to gather the NT church? The trumpet was to wake the dead...

You're trying to say that 1 Cor 15:51-54 doesn't apply to the church? Wow, my head is spinning.

John146
Jan 28th 2008, 03:36 PM
My belief is still under construction on this issue. I think we have 2 things being said here. Jesus is the only man who never knew sin, and so His body was not defiled by it. I do believe the same body that died was what He was resurrected to, and that is what the disciples saw - much like Lazarus when he was raised from the dead. Only Jesus' body saw no corruption, while Lazarus' did - yet Lazarus was healed. 1 Cor 15:50 seems clear that corruption does not inherit incorruption, and so we see that Lazarus was raised back to earthly life (and sin), not eternal life at that time. Jesus' resurrection is obviously different.

When we get to John's vision of the risen Christ in Revelation, we see Jesus appears in a glorified state - not like he was seen upon the earth. Yet while on the earth, He could appear and disappear to His disciples. So what is it we are to know? Possibly the Revelation account is symbolic, since the description John sees lines up with other descriptions given of the Ancient of Days. Or it could be that the transformation Jesus underwent was completed in His ascension as He transitioned from earth into the heavenly realm, where His full glory is seen.

Since Paul was blinded by his vision of Jesus, he gives us no description. And Stephen only says this:

(Acts 7:55-56 KJV) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, {56} And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

So when Paul differentiates between what he refers to as our earthly body made of flesh and blood after the image of Adam, and a spiritual body which is after the image of Jesus - what exactly does that mean?

(1 Cor 15:50 KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

(1 Cor 15:53-55 KJV) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. {54} So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. {55} O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The word translated put on [1746 enduo] is used to describe one putting on clothes and may be literal or figurative. In Revelation we see garments given to all who arrive in heaven. Are these garments spiritual bodies they are being given? Sounds like it to me.

Something about the resurrection of the dead and the change which occured to the living at that time, seems to be a change from the temporal realm to the spiritual realm. For the dead who rise that is a change of place, but for those who are alive and remain it is a spiritual transition which has less to do with our physical bodies than it does with our free access into the heavenly realm.

And whatever our spiritual bodies may be like when they are given to us after these bodies have died, will be like that of Jesus' because His seed is in us. But He is the only Man who ever entered heaven - as a man. None of us are going to ascend into heaven in the manner that He did - bodily. We must be disembodied first because sin has defiled our bodies and death is what sets us free from sin. We must make the transition as souls, then a new spiritual body is given to us. And we see that Jesus died in a like manner, that is He really died in order to bring us justification and forgiveness of sin.

The first man Adam was created out of the dust of the earth. But that is not the source for our spiritual bodies.

(1 Cor 15:47-48 KJV) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. {48} As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

(1 Cor 15:44-46 KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. {45} And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. {46} Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (Note: the translators have added was made - Jesus was always a quickening spirit!)

The seed that is planted in us by the Holy Spirit is what brings us into eternal life at death when the old man/body dies and the new man/Spirit quickened soul is set free to enter glory. I see no reason to think that we need wait for more than a wink of an eye at that time before we find ourselves clothed with immortality.

(Gen 3:19 KJV) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

(Psa 104:29 KJV) Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

(Eccl 12:7 KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I am inclined to think that what came from the dust stays there.

If what came from the dust stays there, then how can there be a resurrection of the dead? Our mortal bodies must put on immortality. Our mortal bodies will be resurrected and will be changed into immortal bodies. This happens at the last trumpet. Notice that Paul says that "we shall not all sleep". So, not everyone will physically die. Yet all believers will be changed from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. When does that happen? At the last trump. There is only one last trump. Your view would require a last trump for each believer who dies. This change from mortal bodies to immortal bodies will occur at the second coming of Christ, when "those who are alive and remain" join together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:13-17).

Nihil Obstat
Jan 28th 2008, 06:46 PM
Mograce2U,

What you are describing is Gnostic, and not Christian. I'm not flinging mud on you - rather, I'm pointing out that there is already mud on you, and offering you water that you'd be rid of it. Lots of Christians don't realize that what they believe comes from Gnostics, and was taught against with all fervency by the NT authors. Yet it was never fully rooted out of the church, and is showing itself again in these last days.

To believe that your body is sinful, and yet not your spirit, is Gnosticism. To believe that earth is doomed and heaven is the goal, is Gnosticism. To believe that we will not receive resurrected physical bodies, is Gnosticism. These are some of the semi-gnostic doctrines I hear you saying that you are juggling around in your head. Drop all these ideas, and start afresh! Jesus did not die to save just your spirit! He is jealous for all of you - He's going to perfect your body, the one you have now! That's why Paul says that this corruptible will put on incorruption, and this mortal will put on immortality!

And heaven is coming to earth, and the two will become one, just as it was in the Garden of Eden (Eph. 1:9-10)! We, under the leadership of Jesus, are going to partner with Him in preparing and renewing the earth for the Father's coming at the end of the millennium! Jesus, who became sin for us, who placed upon Himself all of creation's sin, will reign from Jerusalem, and the increase of His government will know no end! This is what the apostles and early church members died for! This is truth! And this is what we are to put our hope in!

- Lk.11

quiet dove
Jan 28th 2008, 07:58 PM
My belief is still under construction on this issue. I think we have 2 things being said here. Jesus is the only man who never knew sin, and so His body was not defiled by it. I do believe the same body that died was what He was resurrected to, and that is what the disciples saw - much like Lazarus when he was raised from the dead. Only Jesus' body saw no corruption, while Lazarus' did - yet Lazarus was healed. 1 Cor 15:50 seems clear that corruption does not inherit incorruption, and so we see that Lazarus was raised back to earthly life (and sin), not eternal life at that time. Jesus' resurrection is obviously different.

I am inclined to think that what came from the dust stays there.

While a agree that what goes to dust stays to dust I am confused about the rest, I do not believe that after Jesus resurrection there was anything physical or mortal about His resurrected body. Are you saying He was raised back to the same body He died in? and not raised to a glorified body? I would have to disagree with that.

IPet2_9
Jan 28th 2008, 08:08 PM
What about doubting Thomas? What did Jesus tell Thomas to do?

I'm pretty sure Jesus was very much resurrected in the physical. In fact, I bet the reason the disciples did not recognize Him is because He was so disfigured.

quiet dove
Jan 28th 2008, 08:12 PM
Mograce2U,
Jesus did not die to save just your spirit! He is jealous for all of you - He's going to perfect your body, the one you have now! That's why Paul says that this corruptible will put on incorruption, and this mortal will put on immortality!

While I don't agree with Mograce, I would have to also disagree with you on this. I agree that this body is sinful but I also believe it to be history and a new is what I will get, not this one fixed. And while prior to becoming part of the Body of Christ my spirit was separated from God, now in Christ, covered by His atoning blood, my spirit is no longer separated from God. I am told to walk in the Spirit, His Spirit that speaks to mine, and then I will not walk in the ways of my still sinful flesh. This mortal body is out of here at some point and we get a whole new one, immortal and incorruptible.



And heaven is coming to earth, and the two will become one, just as it was in the Garden of Eden (Eph. 1:9-10)! We, under the leadership of Jesus, are going to partner with Him in preparing and renewing the earth for the Father's coming at the end of the millennium! Jesus, who became sin for us, who placed upon Himself all of creation's sin, will reign from Jerusalem, and the increase of His government will know no end! This is what the apostles and early church members died for! This is truth! And this is what we are to put our hope in!

- Lk.11Do you believe the 1000 years is not literal time frame and that we are in that 1000 years now? You said "going to" so I am reading that as still yet a future thing. But I would have to disagree that the Millennium is a time for us to "become" incorruptible, physically or spiritually. Or that we will be helping to prepare the earth for God's return and the New Jerusalem. I mean really, we can't renew squat. Our hope lies in God giving us a new one; new earth, new heaven, new bodies.

I do believe that the earth under the rule of Christ will be nothing as it is now, but it won't be the New Earth nor can it be transformed into the New Earth.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 28th 2008, 08:12 PM
While a agree that what goes to dust stays to dust I am confused about the rest, I do not believe that after Jesus resurrection there was anything physical or mortal about His resurrected body. Are you saying He was raised back to the same body He died in? and not raised to a glorified body? I would have to disagree with that.

Jesus was raised with a physical, immortal body. By spiritual, Paul does not mean "without flesh". Jesus even said of Himself that He had in His resurrected body flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). The Gnostics poisoned the church into believing that flesh is sinful and to be escaped, and that the spirit is pure and to be set free. This is a false gospel! When Paul spoke of flesh vs. spirit, he was speaking of the kingdom of the flesh vs. the kingdom of the Spirit - major difference. Jesus died for our flesh - He created our fleshly bodies! We don't sin because we have flesh - we sin when we desire the things that the kingdom of the flesh offers to us (momentary satisfaction in the place of everlasting satisfaction, for example)! If you don't have even an elementary understanding of this, many of Paul's epistles will be hard to understand. - Lk.11

quiet dove
Jan 28th 2008, 08:43 PM
Jesus was raised with a physical, immortal body. By spiritual, Paul does not mean "without flesh". Jesus even said of Himself that He had in His resurrected body flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). The Gnostics poisoned the church into believing that flesh is sinful and to be escaped, and that the spirit is pure and to be set free. This is a false gospel! When Paul spoke of flesh vs. spirit, he was speaking of the kingdom of the flesh vs. the kingdom of the Spirit - major difference. Jesus died for our flesh - He created our fleshly bodies! We don't sin because we have flesh - we sin when we desire the things that the kingdom of the flesh offers to us (momentary satisfaction in the place of everlasting satisfaction, for example)! If you don't have even an elementary understanding of this, many of Paul's epistles will be hard to understand. - Lk.11

This may come out all confusing but I am going to try. I agree with the pretty part in purple. (I like purple :)) But how you are applying those truths to the bolded part is what I disagree with, if that makes sense.

I am making a list of my thought in trying not to sound like I'm going in circles:(And I know you will agree with most of this but consider the application of them, is what I am going for here)
--when Adam sinned, he became spiritually separated from God, his creator. Correct?
--the term flesh is not necessarily refering to skin and blood but to our desire to do our own will as opposed to walking, in obedience, to the Spirit Who now indwells us, once we are saved.
--we are still sinful and corruptible but are covered by the blood of Christ, His atonement covers us and we are spiritually unseparated from God, we are now able to have the relationship with our heavenly Father that He intended through Christ Jesus

Our spiritual separation from God was a death sentence. Christ died not to redeem our physical flesh, but to reunite us spiritually with our Creator. Our Creator who can not have our sinful selves in His presence without pronouncing judgment upon our sinfulness, that judgment which would destroy us not only physically, but our spirit as well.

So I would agree that we do not sin because we have flesh, but we are, on our own and within ourselves, separated, spiritually from our Creator. We desire our own will. And only through Christ are we free to choose to follow Gods will, and through Christ are we seen by God, spiritually alive. None of it really has anything to do with the flesh and blood we are now occupying.

I know you understand the truths of what is here, it is your application of them to our spirit and our flesh that I disagree with and hopefully I said this somewhat clearly. :confused

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2008, 08:58 PM
when Adam sinned, he became spiritually separated from God, his creator. Correct?


Correct.

Romans 5:12-13
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.



--the term flesh is not necessarily refering to skin and blood but to our desire to do our own will as opposed to walking, in obedience, to the Spirit Who now indwells us, once we are saved.
--we are still sinful and corruptible but are covered by the blood of Christ, His atonement covers us and we are spiritually unseparated from God, we are now able to have the relationship with our heavenly Father that He intended through Christ Jesus

Our spiritual separation from God was a death sentence. Christ died not to redeem our physical flesh, but to reunite us spiritually with our Creator. Our Creator who can not have our sinful selves in His presence without pronouncing judgment upon our sinfulness, that judgment which would destroy us not only physically, but our spirit as well.

So I would agree that we do not sin because we have flesh, but we are, on our own and within ourselves, separated, spiritually from our Creator. We desire our own will. And only through Christ are we free to choose to follow Gods will, and through Christ are we seen by God, spiritually alive. None of it really has anything to do with the flesh and blood we are now occupying.

I know you understand the truths of what is here, it is your application of them to our spirit and our flesh that I disagree with and hopefully I said this somewhat clearly. :confused


The flesh is corruptable, the Holy Spirit is not. The corruptable does not inherit the Kingdom, the incorruptable does.

1 Corinthians 15:5
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

When the perfect comes, all imperfection will disappear. Any remnants of the "old man" will be washed away. All who have faith in hope in Christ, can be confident that when we see him, we will indeed be like him. And will have no remnance of the sinful nature that once was present with us in the flesh.

quiet dove
Jan 28th 2008, 09:09 PM
When the perfect comes, all imperfection will disappear. Any remnants of the "old man" will be washed away. All who have faith in hope in Christ, can be confident that when we see him, we will indeed be like him. And will have no remnance of the sinful nature that once was present with us in the flesh.

But though we agree on the truths, we are applying them differently, do you see what I mean? Unless I misunderstood, you were saying that the flesh we have will be transformed into incorruptible. I am saying the flesh we have will go away and a new body given. Then death will have been swallowed up in victory. We will no longer have anything of the old, everything will be new and we will no longer be tormented by the incorruptible part of us because it is gone. The transforming we go through daily to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh is not talking about our physical body being transformed, but our spirit being transformed into walking according to righteousness. And someday we will be "changed" in the twinkling of an eye to immortal and incorruptible. It will not be a transforming, but a BAM. :)

When we start talking about the flesh, the spirit, soul, and so on it gets confusing to put your thoughts together, or for me it does. :confused

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2008, 09:19 PM
But though we agree on the truths, we are applying them differently, do you see what I mean? Unless I misunderstood, you were saying that the flesh we have will be transformed into incorruptible. I am saying the flesh we have will go away and a new body given. Then death will have been swallowed up in victory. We will no longer have anything of the old, everything will be new and we will no longer be tormented by the incorruptible part of us because it is gone. The transforming we go through daily to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh is not talking about our physical body being transformed, but our spirit being transformed into walking according to righteousness. And someday we will be "changed" in the twinkling of an eye to immortal and incorruptible. It will not be a transforming, but a BAM. :)

When we start talking about the flesh, the spirit, soul, and so on it gets confusing to put your thoughts together, or for me it does. :confused

Any remnants of the Old Man will be washed away. You can take this as meaning this as meaning a washing away of the Old, and a bringing forth of the new. I don't know how this process is going to be done. The Word doesn't mention how it will be done, it just states that the corruptable will not inherit the kingdom.

How God purifies all of mankind and creation is a real non-issue and it's kind of like discussing how God turned water into wine, or why he chooses to represent himself in three persons. We'll find out if he allows us to be with him forever.

Edit: Perhaps it will be like removing a worm from an apple, or washing off a dark horse with white paint. Whatever the case, God knows all - and no secrets can be hidden from him.

quiet dove
Jan 28th 2008, 09:45 PM
Any remnants of the Old Man will be washed away. You can take this as meaning this as meaning a washing away of the Old, and a bringing forth of the new. I don't know how this process is going to be done. The Word doesn't mention how it will be done, it just states that the corruptable will not inherit the kingdom.

How God purifies all of mankind and creation is a real non-issue and it's kind of like discussing how God turned water into wine, or why he chooses to represent himself in three persons. We'll find out if he allows us to be with him forever.

Edit: Perhaps it will be like removing a worm from an apple, or washing off a dark horse with white paint. Whatever the case, God knows all - and no secrets can be hidden from him.

I disagree, I mean we are not capable of knowing the how an incorruptible body is created, but we are given in the pages of the Bible what will transform us from walking in the flesh to walking in the Spirit. But that is spiritually. We are also told that in the twinkling of and eye we are changed, at least those still alive. And the dead are resurrected, both groups in Jesus,to immortality and incorruptible.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."
The worm isn't taken out of the apple, the whole apple, worm and all, is gone and a new apple created.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 29th 2008, 01:03 AM
Would you then address those Scriptures given in my opening post? Because we know that God's word does not contradict itself, we know that only one camp is correct. We also know that we can know, and that it is a command to know. Therefore this is important. So please, discuss the three passages given in my first post, and explain to me how a pre-trib rapture could still be possible? I don't want to discuss my confidence. What is your understanding? I mean, I know that you're pre-trib, but why do you believe this? I'm eager to discuss these things with you, as it is of high priority!

- Lk.11
Hi astrongerthanhe!

Can you explain why we know only one camp is correct?

IPet2_9
Jan 29th 2008, 01:38 AM
I guess I need a little clarification myself. partaker, are you implying that it may be possible for both pre-trib AND post-trib to be correct? That, to me, would be like 2+2 equalling 4 and 5 at the same time.

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2008, 01:12 PM
The worm isn't taken out of the apple, the whole apple, worm and all, is gone and a new apple created.


Malachi 3:2-3
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.


You can look at it as a completely recreating the apple, you can also look at it as washing away of sin as described in the passage above, or a refining process. It's kind of difficult to say exactly what will be done, many analogies are given in scripture. Only God knows the exact details of the process.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 29th 2008, 03:29 PM
I guess I need a little clarification myself. partaker, are you implying that it may be possible for both pre-trib AND post-trib to be correct? That, to me, would be like 2+2 equalling 4 and 5 at the same time.

This subject is not one that I have given any great study to.
I see the different camps, but wonder why one is said to be right, and the other wrong.

I am not thinking several raptures, but one.
Why cannot the period of that one rapture last from pre to post?

Firstfruits
Jan 29th 2008, 03:41 PM
Is it possible for the following scrptures to be applied?

Can we speak the same thing?


1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Cor 4:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Do we really believe that which is written?

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2008, 04:09 PM
Is it possible for the following scrptures to be applied?

Can we speak the same thing?


1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Cor 4:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
2 Cor 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Do we really believe that which is written?

I think these are applied much better --


2 Corinthians 12:11-12-21; 13:1
I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong. Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not your's but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you? I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps? Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

quiet dove
Jan 29th 2008, 06:31 PM
Malachi 3:2-3
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.


You can look at it as a completely recreating the apple, you can also look at it as washing away of sin as described in the passage above, or a refining process. It's kind of difficult to say exactly what will be done, many analogies are given in scripture. Only God knows the exact details of the process.

If we take these passages within the context of Mal 3:1-6 it seems to me to more clearly speak of Christ Second Advent and His refining of mortal men during His Millennial reign, just like we are mortal now and should be being refined on a daily basis as we grow in our relationship with Christ and learn to walk in the Spirit.

IPet2_9
Jan 29th 2008, 06:55 PM
I am not thinking several raptures, but one.
Why cannot the period of that one rapture last from pre to post?

You're starting to touch on the non-futurist perspectives. Why don't we go one step further? Why couldn't the rapture last all throughout history? At that point we are starting to get into the idealist perspective (and maybe the preterist, and historicist). After all, we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye. But who says the final trumpet blows at the same time FOR EVERYBODY? It does say the dead will rise first--well, they already are!

I personally am not too concerned about the timing of the rapture for the dead. I'm not dead, so.... It then becomes an issue of the timing of the rapture for the living (whether it happens together and/or immediately after the dead or not), and I would be very surprised if that does not occur at the same time for everybody. I suppose you could see Elijahs and Enochs happening on a much more massive scale, but without a Scriptural basis....

Partaker of Christ
Jan 29th 2008, 09:47 PM
You're starting to touch on the non-futurist perspectives. Why don't we go one step further? Why couldn't the rapture last all throughout history? At that point we are starting to get into the idealist perspective (and maybe the preterist, and historicist). After all, we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye. But who says the final trumpet blows at the same time FOR EVERYBODY? It does say the dead will rise first--well, they already are!

I personally am not too concerned about the timing of the rapture for the dead. I'm not dead, so.... It then becomes an issue of the timing of the rapture for the living (whether it happens together and/or immediately after the dead or not), and I would be very surprised if that does not occur at the same time for everybody. I suppose you could see Elijahs and Enochs happening on a much more massive scale, but without a Scriptural basis....

For the record I believe I am futurist.
anti-preterist, and I am not sure what is a historicist.

Any chance of answering my first question?

John146
Jan 29th 2008, 10:42 PM
But though we agree on the truths, we are applying them differently, do you see what I mean? Unless I misunderstood, you were saying that the flesh we have will be transformed into incorruptible. I am saying the flesh we have will go away and a new body given.

I don't want to make a big deal of this issue (we will be resurrected and changed regardless, right?), but there's just one problem with that kind of thinking. After He was resurrected, Jesus still had the scars where He was pierced in the side, hands and feet. So, the body He had was changed from mortal and corruptible (it was mortal and corruptible because it died) to immortal and incorruptible (His body can't die again). Since Scripture says we will be like Him, which means our bodies will be like His, then I have to assume that these bodies we have will literally be resurrected and will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-54) from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. Same bodies, only no longer mortal. I'm not saying we'll look exactly like we look now, but I am saying that I think these bodies we have now will be changed and perfected and not completely discarded and replaced with entirely new bodies. I say that because that isn't what happened with Jesus Himself. He still had His old body in some sense because of the scars.

Oh, I just thought of one other thing.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. - Romans 8:22-23

So, we're all waiting in great anticipation for the redemption of our bodies that takes place when Christ returns at the last trumpet. Now, why would it say the redemption of our bodies if these bodies will no longer exist? Wouldn't it say "the replacement of our bodies" or something instead if we're no longer going to have these bodies in any way, shape or form? Ponder that and let me know what you think. :hmm:

IPet2_9
Jan 29th 2008, 11:07 PM
Any chance of answering my first question?

If I understand your question correctly, it's that why can't pre-trib and post-trib both be right? Do I understand that correctly? I don't see how that could be possible. The rapture can't be both before the Trib and after the Trib at the same time. Both camps could be WRONG, however. It could be neither. It could be in the middle, or some continuous thing, or not literal at all. But at least one of them has to be wrong.

quiet dove
Jan 30th 2008, 12:44 AM
I don't want to make a big deal of this issue (we will be resurrected and changed regardless, right?), but there's just one problem with that kind of thinking. After He was resurrected, Jesus still had the scars where He was pierced in the side, hands and feet. So, the body He had was changed from mortal and corruptible (it was mortal and corruptible because it died) to immortal and incorruptible (His body can't die again). Since Scripture says we will be like Him, which means our bodies will be like His, then I have to assume that these bodies we have will literally be resurrected and will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-54) from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. Same bodies, only no longer mortal. I'm not saying we'll look exactly like we look now, but I am saying that I think these bodies we have now will be changed and perfected and not completely discarded and replaced with entirely new bodies. I say that because that isn't what happened with Jesus Himself. He still had His old body in some sense because of the scars.

Oh, I just thought of one other thing.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. - Romans 8:22-23

So, we're all waiting in great anticipation for the redemption of our bodies that takes place when Christ returns at the last trumpet. Now, why would it say the redemption of our bodies if these bodies will no longer exist? Wouldn't it say "the replacement of our bodies" or something instead if we're no longer going to have these bodies in any way, shape or form? Ponder that and let me know what you think. :hmm:

Thats a good point and I have always thought we would be as such that we would recognize each other the same way we do now, by appearance. But I also think that our new bodies will be just that, new. Jesus having the scars from His crucifixion is perfection, perfect love. Psalms 22:14 and 22:17 tell us that the scars of His hands and side would not be the only scars.

The NT does not mention any other scars but does mention that is was possible for His disciples to see Him and not recognize Him so there are a lot of questions we could speculate on there. Seems like the scars mentioned would be the reminder of what He did for us that we will see through out eternity in His hands and side.

As far as there being anything left of this old body, I do not believe there will be, but yet the new one will still be me or look like me I guess, only in perfection. (which of course I can not even imagine what the really means) But my main point of the previous post was that this will not be a gradual change but an all the sudden all at once change.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 30th 2008, 12:56 AM
If I understand your question correctly, it's that why can't pre-trib and post-trib both be right? Do I understand that correctly? I don't see how that could be possible. The rapture can't be both before the Trib and after the Trib at the same time. Both camps could be WRONG, however. It could be neither. It could be in the middle, or some continuous thing, or not literal at all. But at least one of them has to be wrong.

OK, I guess I should leave it there.
I was just trying to find out why?

Mograce2U
Jan 30th 2008, 04:19 AM
I don't want to make a big deal of this issue (we will be resurrected and changed regardless, right?), but there's just one problem with that kind of thinking. After He was resurrected, Jesus still had the scars where He was pierced in the side, hands and feet. So, the body He had was changed from mortal and corruptible (it was mortal and corruptible because it died) to immortal and incorruptible (His body can't die again). Since Scripture says we will be like Him, which means our bodies will be like His, then I have to assume that these bodies we have will literally be resurrected and will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-54) from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. Same bodies, only no longer mortal. I'm not saying we'll look exactly like we look now, but I am saying that I think these bodies we have now will be changed and perfected and not completely discarded and replaced with entirely new bodies. I say that because that isn't what happened with Jesus Himself. He still had His old body in some sense because of the scars.

Oh, I just thought of one other thing.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. - Romans 8:22-23

So, we're all waiting in great anticipation for the redemption of our bodies that takes place when Christ returns at the last trumpet. Now, why would it say the redemption of our bodies if these bodies will no longer exist? Wouldn't it say "the replacement of our bodies" or something instead if we're no longer going to have these bodies in any way, shape or form? Ponder that and let me know what you think. :hmm:Well that word translated redemption [G629 apolutrosis] might not be the help for your position that you think! ;)

It speaks of being loosened from what holds one captive. As v21 says we are waiting to be "delivered from the bondage of corruption". It could as easily be understood as the removal of these bodies as it can be their transformation. More searching and pondering to do...

Allegra
Jan 30th 2008, 05:06 AM
Jesus said at the resurrection, we will be like the angels in heaven. This may be describing our disposition just as much as our substance-that angels don't procreate.

But when you think about it, the Bible also says we will be changed but not REINCARNATED, so to speak. So, I think our new spiritual bodies will look similar to what we are now.

How else will relatives recognize us in heaven? :confused

Duane Morse
Jan 30th 2008, 06:25 AM
Personally, I think our current bodies will change into a new type of substance. An atomic change, extending up through the molecular and cellular levels.

Hopefully, other types of 'repairs' will be made in the process.

It will not be a 'blasting away' of the old with a subsequent creation of a new - it will be a perfecting of the old into the new.

And if that is the case, then we will have a similar physical appearance and will be able to recognize one another.

quiet dove
Jan 30th 2008, 05:17 PM
Personally, I think our current bodies will change into a new type of substance. An atomic change, extending up through the molecular and cellular levels.

Hopefully, other types of 'repairs' will be made in the process.

It will not be a 'blasting away' of the old with a subsequent creation of a new - it will be a perfecting of the old into the new.

And if that is the case, then we will have a similar physical appearance and will be able to recognize one another.

Hopefully repairs, as many are nothing but dust to dust and ashes to ashes.:lol: There is nothing of the old body to blast away anyway. Those folk are going to be needing a new one and I personally want my new one whether this one is still functioning or not. I wanna be completely changed and nothing of this old one left and that does not mean the new one could not be recognizable to friends and family, if even it isn't I would still choose the new one.

Mograce2U
Jan 30th 2008, 06:03 PM
Personally, I think our current bodies will change into a new type of substance. An atomic change, extending up through the molecular and cellular levels.

Hopefully, other types of 'repairs' will be made in the process.

It will not be a 'blasting away' of the old with a subsequent creation of a new - it will be a perfecting of the old into the new.

And if that is the case, then we will have a similar physical appearance and will be able to recognize one another.I'm with QD on this one. The old man is not to have any life even now while living in the earth - we are to reckon him already dead. We are not being "renovated" now from old to new, rather we are created anew - born from above. It is the seed of the new man planted in us that will see eternal life, when the old has fallen away.

Consider these passages:

(Isa 40:6-8 KJV) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: {7} The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. {8} The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

(James 1:11-12 KJV) For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways. {12} Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

(1 Pet 1:23-25 KJV) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. {24} For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: {25} But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

John146
Jan 30th 2008, 06:27 PM
Thats a good point and I have always thought we would be as such that we would recognize each other the same way we do now, by appearance. But I also think that our new bodies will be just that, new. Jesus having the scars from His crucifixion is perfection, perfect love. Psalms 22:14 and 22:17 tell us that the scars of His hands and side would not be the only scars.

The NT does not mention any other scars but does mention that is was possible for His disciples to see Him and not recognize Him so there are a lot of questions we could speculate on there. Seems like the scars mentioned would be the reminder of what He did for us that we will see through out eternity in His hands and side.

As far as there being anything left of this old body, I do not believe there will be, but yet the new one will still be me or look like me I guess, only in perfection. (which of course I can not even imagine what the really means) But my main point of the previous post was that this will not be a gradual change but an all the sudden all at once change.

Regarding your main point, I agree. It will happen "in the twinkling of an eye".

Firstfruits
Jan 30th 2008, 07:51 PM
Paul wrote to comfort the church in Thessalonica that the dead in Christ would rise *first* (1 Thess. 4:13-18), and then we in Christ who are alive and remaining will rise *after* them, which will all happen at the seventh trumpet. We know that this will all happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet because Isaiah says of himself that he will rise *with* those who survive the great tribulation (Isa. 26:19-21), and Daniel was told by the angel that the dead would not rise until *after* the great tribulation (Dan. 11:36-12:3). By these three passages in God's word we know that there is only one rapture: post-trib.

To summarize: the dead rise before the living, and the dead rise after the great tribulation, therefore the living do not rise until after the great tribulation. Good? See also 1 Cor. 15:23; Heb. 9:28.

- Lk.11

It truly was that simple, why then is it so hard to understand?

IPet2_9
Jan 30th 2008, 08:36 PM
I don't know. Matthew 24 seems pretty simple, too. It says,

29" Immediately AFTER the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



The Scripture itself seems pretty clear to me. So why does it get so difficult to understand? Probably because it gets so diluted by the teachings of men.

One thing I don't understand, though: why would Jesus and John go to all the trouble of warning us about end-time events--in detail--if we're not going to be here??

John146
Jan 30th 2008, 09:11 PM
I don't know. Matthew 24 seems pretty simple, too. It says,

29" Immediately AFTER the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



The Scripture itself seems pretty clear to me. So why does it get so difficult to understand? Probably because it gets so diluted by the teachings of men.

One thing I don't understand, though: why would Jesus and John go to all the trouble of warning us about end-time events--in detail--if we're not going to be here??

Very good question. Paul said we will be here, but we will not be overtaken as a thief the way unbelievers will be.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

yoSAMite
Jan 31st 2008, 05:55 AM
Paul wrote to comfort the church in Thessalonica that the dead in Christ would rise *first* (1 Thess. 4:13-18), and then we in Christ who are alive and remaining will rise *after* them, which will all happen at the seventh trumpet. We know that this will all happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet because Isaiah says of himself that he will rise *with* those who survive the great tribulation (Isa. 26:19-21), and Daniel was told by the angel that the dead would not rise until *after* the great tribulation (Dan. 11:36-12:3). By these three passages in God's word we know that there is only one rapture: post-trib.

To summarize: the dead rise before the living, and the dead rise after the great tribulation, therefore the living do not rise until after the great tribulation. Good? See also 1 Cor. 15:23; Heb. 9:28.

- Lk.11
From a pre-trib viewpoint I think you are mixing verses for the church and Israel, rapture and 2nd coming verses and you may even be throwing in a verse concerning eternal judgment in for good measure.

Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

This certainly can't be a rapture verse nor a 2nd coming verse. Unless you believe that not all the dead rise and then on the way up to meet Jesus some are judged to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 09:29 AM
From a pre-trib viewpoint I think you are mixing verses for the church and Israel, rapture and 2nd coming verses and you may even be throwing in a verse concerning eternal judgment in for good measure.

Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

This certainly can't be a rapture verse nor a 2nd coming verse. Unless you believe that not all the dead rise and then on the way up to meet Jesus some are judged to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

From a scriptural point of view do you agree that what we call the rapture can only happen at the return of Christ as it is written?

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

yoSAMite
Jan 31st 2008, 09:52 AM
From a scriptural point of view do you agree that what we call the rapture can only happen at the return of Christ as it is written?

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If you're asking me if these verses pertain to the rapture, I'd say yes.

jeffweeder
Jan 31st 2008, 11:13 AM
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

This certainly can't be a rapture verse nor a 2nd coming verse.

Paul tells us that its a twinkling of an eye, from the moment we are raised,-to inheriting the kingdom of God---at the last trump.
Jesus comes at the last trump, raises us the last day and recieves us to himself all in the twinkling of an eye.
What you consider a rapture , reessurection or second coming verse are all united in the day of the lord, and its in a twinkling of an eye that seperates these events.

The early Church were saying..."come lord Jesus", because they knew that when he came he would raise them from the dead and then we would all be caught up together to meet him.

Paul clearly taught that anyone living would not be raptured away before the dead are raised.
The dead are raised when the heavens are no more...the last day.

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 11:17 AM
If you're asking me if these verses pertain to the rapture, I'd say yes.

Thanks khoolaid, since when Christ returns will be judgment, and as Christ has said all that are in their graves shall hear his voice and arise.

Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; And they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

There is only one return of Christ.

Kahtar
Jan 31st 2008, 02:44 PM
Revelation 20:4-6
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
(6) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 03:54 PM
Revelation 20:4-6
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
(6) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


As it is stated these are they that were killed during the reign of the beast/false prophet.

Kahtar
Jan 31st 2008, 04:24 PM
As it is stated these are they that were killed during the reign of the beast/false prophet.Yes, but the rest of the dead, those destined to the lake, don't get resurrected until the END of the thousand years. First resurrection, therefore a second.

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 04:36 PM
Yes, but the rest of the dead, those destined to the lake, don't get resurrected until the END of the thousand years. First resurrection, therefore a second.

With the understanding that the first resurrection is not the return of Christ, seeing that judgment is not until after the1000 years are complete which is when christ returns for the final gathering.

Rev 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Rev 14:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

These are the saints that christ reaps at his return.

And these are those that do not belong to Christ.

Rev 14:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Rev 14:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Note two sickles at his return.

Kahtar
Jan 31st 2008, 04:45 PM
Okay, I think I'm following you. But let me ask, how does Christ reign a thousand years, and us with Him, if He doesn't return till the thousand years is over?

IPet2_9
Jan 31st 2008, 05:19 PM
The millennium question has never made any sense to me. The minute you read one Scripture that seems pretty clear there's a literal millennium after Christ returns, you find another Scripture that seems to clearly refute that and suggest amillennial. :giveup:



Yes, but the rest of the dead, those destined to the lake, don't get resurrected until the END of the thousand years. First resurrection, therefore a second.

I didn't read that ALL those in the second resurrection are destined for the lake of fire. Only those whose names are not the book of life. That said, Rev. 20 never does say what happens if your name IS in the book of life.

yoSAMite
Jan 31st 2008, 06:38 PM
JeffWeeder wrote
Paul tells us that its a twinkling of an eye, from the moment we are raised,-to inheriting the kingdom of God---at the last trump.
Jesus comes at the last trump, raises us the last day and recieves us to himself all in the twinkling of an eye.
What you consider a rapture , ressurection or second coming verse are all united in the day of the lord, and its in a twinkling of an eye that seperates these events.

The early Church were saying..."come lord Jesus", because they knew that when he came he would raise them from the dead and then we would all be caught up together to meet him.

If you look closely at Daniel 12:2 - "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt" it says many not all.

It may seem like nit picking, but the Holy Spirit is not lazy in giving us God's Word. It is my suggestion that this is not a rapture verse because not all the dead will awake. I'm not sure why it says this as I have more questions than answers when I dig deeper into the Bible. I believe that what seems like minor differences in events are there for a reason. It's probably to help us tweak our beliefs.

I also don't think that the 2nd Coming and the judgment of all are concurrent events. If that's your belief, I'm open.

yoSAMite
Jan 31st 2008, 06:39 PM
Thanks khoolaid, since when Christ returns will be judgment, and as Christ has said all that are in their graves shall hear his voice and arise.

Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; And they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

There is only one return of Christ.


See above post. And again I'm open to interpretation here.

Mograce2U
Jan 31st 2008, 06:52 PM
<snip>
I didn't read that ALL those in the second resurrection are destined for the lake of fire. Only those whose names are not the book of life. That said, Rev. 20 never does say what happens if your name IS in the book of life.
This verse is interesting about those whose names do not stay in that book:

(Rev 3:4-6 KJV) Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. {5} He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. {6} He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Could be that some things revealed in the judgment based on the book of the works of the rest of the dead will cause their names to be removed? Earlier in Rev. we see that all those who worship the beast are not in there at all - and probably never had been. Something about those who are raised in the 2nd resurrection remains to be determined as to what their fate is to be. Perhaps only because they do not know whether they ought to be there or not. The sheep and the goats judgment in Mat 25 deals with 2 groups - neither of which knew that they were serving Christ or not in how they treated His followers.

I have wondered whether or not it is possible that those who have the judgment of God befall them in this life are raised again at all. If His wrath comes upon them here, why would they be judged again? I am thinking of those who worship the beast that experience the vials of His wrath. If the beast and false prophet went to the lake before this judgment, they surely are not being raised from there to face this judgment. Just a thought.

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 07:30 PM
Okay, I think I'm following you. But let me ask, how does Christ reign a thousand years, and us with Him, if He doesn't return till the thousand years is over?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It is written that those that are killed during the reign of the beast/false prophet reign with Christ during the 1000 years.

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This does not mean that the rest of the dead are all non Christians because Christ does not return until after the 1000 years is fulfilled, and then all those in the graves shall hear his voice.

Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Clearly there shall be both good and evil raised when Christ returns.

Kahtar
Jan 31st 2008, 07:55 PM
Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It is written that those that are killed during the reign of the beast/false prophet reign with Christ during the 1000 years.

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This does not mean that the rest of the dead are all non Christians because Christ does not return until after the 1000 years is fulfilled, and then all those in the graves shall hear his voice.

Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Clearly there shall be both good and evil raised when Christ returns.Okay, but that didn't answer my question. Regardless which ones reign with Him, the fact remains that He reigns on earth for a thousand years. How shall He reign on earth for that thousand years if He doesn't come until after the thousand years?

John146
Jan 31st 2008, 09:01 PM
From a pre-trib viewpoint I think you are mixing verses for the church and Israel, rapture and 2nd coming verses and you may even be throwing in a verse concerning eternal judgment in for good measure.

Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

This certainly can't be a rapture verse nor a 2nd coming verse. Unless you believe that not all the dead rise and then on the way up to meet Jesus some are judged to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

When do you believe the following happens?

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-29

John146
Jan 31st 2008, 09:03 PM
Okay, but that didn't answer my question. Regardless which ones reign with Him, the fact remains that He reigns on earth for a thousand years. How shall He reign on earth for that thousand years if He doesn't come until after the thousand years?

Where does it say that the thousand year reign is on earth?

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 09:38 PM
JeffWeeder wrote

If you look closely at Daniel 12:2 - "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt" it says many not all.

It may seem like nit picking, but the Holy Spirit is not lazy in giving us God's Word. It is my suggestion that this is not a rapture verse because not all the dead will awake. I'm not sure why it says this as I have more questions than answers when I dig deeper into the Bible. I believe that what seems like minor differences in events are there for a reason. It's probably to help us tweak our beliefs.

I also don't think that the 2nd Coming and the judgment of all are concurrent events. If that's your belief, I'm open.

Why do you think that Both good and evil will be resurrected if it was not the end.

Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; And they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Is it not said that the dead in Christ shall rise first? then if it was another resurrection then why would those who were not Christs be raised at that time and again at a latter stage?

Buck shot
Jan 31st 2008, 10:01 PM
Where does it say that the thousand year reign is on earth?


Rev 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Kahtar
Jan 31st 2008, 10:43 PM
Thank you, Buck Shot...;)

John146
Jan 31st 2008, 10:46 PM
Rev 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Notice that verse 8 is dealing with the time AFTER the thousand years. So, you have not done anything to show that the reign is on the earth. John speaks of souls of those who have been killed reigning with Christ. He doesn't say anything about seeing people with Christ reigning on the earth.

IPet2_9
Jan 31st 2008, 10:58 PM
Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Speaking of which, has anyone heard all this rhetoric about wanting a war with Iran, in order to bring about the prophetic battle of Gog and Magog and usher in the coming Millennium? This passage should say it all about that. Gog and Magog very clearly happens after the 1000 years are over.

ross3421
Feb 1st 2008, 01:06 AM
Speaking of which, has anyone heard all this rhetoric about wanting a war with Iran, in order to bring about the prophetic battle of Gog and Magog and usher in the coming Millennium? This passage should say it all about that. Gog and Magog very clearly happens after the 1000 years are over.

[/color]

Are the "latter days" during the Millennium?


Eze 38:16And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

ross3421
Feb 1st 2008, 01:16 AM
Yes, but the rest of the dead, those destined to the lake, don't get resurrected until the END of the thousand years. First resurrection, therefore a second.

The "rest of the dead" are speaking of believers in this verse.

Notice both groups reign with Christ

Martyred live with Christ prior to the resurrection (special reward)

Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Note they "live and reign" for a the thousand years


Rest of the dead (believers) live again at the first resurrection

Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurection is a resurrection of believers, the following resurrection is for the wicked. ie. second resurrection.

Note they are preists of God and reign with Christ.

Re 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


First Resurrection

Clearly this happens when Christ returns not a 1000 years later. So perhaps a 1000 years is not literal folks, can we not entertain this idea?




Mark

Firstfruits
Feb 1st 2008, 12:08 PM
Rev 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Knowing that this earth will pass away, and that the kingdom of Christ will not pass away, according to which scripture does it state that this earth will not pass away with regards to following?

Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

His kingdom shall not pass away.

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This earth shall be destoyed.

yoSAMite
Feb 11th 2008, 01:10 AM
JeffWeeder wrote

If you look closely at Daniel 12:2 - "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt" it says many not all.

It may seem like nit picking, but the Holy Spirit is not lazy in giving us God's Word. It is my suggestion that this is not a rapture verse because not all the dead will awake. I'm not sure why it says this as I have more questions than answers when I dig deeper into the Bible. I believe that what seems like minor differences in events are there for a reason. It's probably to help us tweak our beliefs.

I also don't think that the 2nd Coming and the judgment of all are concurrent events. If that's your belief, I'm open.
In my follow up studies to this, I came across an interpretation of Daniel 12:2 that is as follows "And many from among the sleepers of the dust of the earth shall awake; these shall be unto everlasting life; but those, the rest of the sleepers, those who do not awake at this time, shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt."

This doesn't change my overall viewpoint, but it does make my beginning statement mute.

John146
Feb 11th 2008, 01:54 AM
In my follow up studies to this, I came across an interpretation of Daniel 12:2 that is as follows "And many from among the sleepers of the dust of the earth shall awake; these shall be unto everlasting life; but those, the rest of the sleepers, those who do not awake at this time, shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt."

This doesn't change my overall viewpoint, but it does make my beginning statement mute.

Where did you see that interpretation? That interpretation twists the clear meaning of the text. It says many shall awake. Some of those will awake to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. The passage gives no indication at all about some being resurrected and then the rest being resurrected at some later time. We can find clarification for exactly what the passage means by reading the parallel passage from John 5:28-29. Jesus indicated in John 5:28-29 an hour or time is coming when all of the dead will hear His voice and will be resurrected. Some are resurrected to life (we can assume everlasting life) and some to damnation (everlasting damnation is implied). This happens at the same time. He clearly said "an hour (time) is coming", not "hours are coming" when all of the dead would be resurrected.

Firstfruits
Feb 11th 2008, 01:58 PM
Where did you see that interpretation? That interpretation twists the clear meaning of the text. It says many shall awake. Some of those will awake to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. The passage gives no indication at all about some being resurrected and then the rest being resurrected at some later time. We can find clarification for exactly what the passage means by reading the parallel passage from John 5:28-29. Jesus indicated in John 5:28-29 an hour or time is coming when all of the dead will hear His voice and will be resurrected. Some are resurrected to life (we can assume everlasting life) and some to damnation (everlasting damnation is implied). This happens at the same time. He clearly said "an hour (time) is coming", not "hours are coming" when all of the dead would be resurrected.

Ditto that John146

Firstfruits

yoSAMite
Feb 12th 2008, 05:00 PM
John 146
Where did you see that interpretation? That interpretation twists the clear meaning of the text. It says many shall awake. Some of those will awake to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt.It was something I heard Chuck Missler say a few days ago in one of the tapes I have. I put it out to give another view.

And if I read the KJ rendering it doesn't say that all will arise at one time. It says many will arise some good some bad. Using the term many implies not all will rise at the same time. The Missler version say good rise and then later bad rise. Unfortunately he didn't go very deep into it.

Either way neither translation lines up with John 5:28-29. KJ - 2 raising of dead mixed with good and bad. Missler - 2 raising of dead first good then bad. I'm studying trying to put the full story together myself. Have no answer yet but your point is well taken.

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 05:18 PM
And if I read the KJ rendering it doesn't say that all will arise at one time. It says many will arise some good some bad.

Either way neither translation lines up with John 5:28-29. KJ - 2 raising of dead mixed with good and bad. Missler - 2 raising of dead first good then bad. I'm studying trying to put the full story together myself. Have no answer yet but your point is well taken.



Here is the KJV translation. It is pretty solidly grounded on 'all at the same time'.

John 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Is Jesus quoting Daniel? seems pretty similar to me....



Daniel "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake"
John "the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth"
.
Daniel "some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"
John "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Paul also combined the just and the unjust together at the resurrection.
Acts 24:15 "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Job also spoke of just one resurrection of humankind.
Job 14:10 "But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
Isaiah also spoke of just one resurrection of humankind.
Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon"

John146
Feb 12th 2008, 05:51 PM
John 146It was something I heard Chuck Missler say a few days ago in one of the tapes I have. I put it out to give another view.

And if I read the KJ rendering it doesn't say that all will arise at one time. It says many will arise some good some bad. Using the term many implies not all will rise at the same time.

Why does it have to imply that? Can't all be many? For example, if you could count the number of all the members on this forum you would find that there are many of us. See what I'm saying? I don't believe we have to assume that many means not all.



The Missler version say good rise and then later bad rise. Unfortunately he didn't go very deep into it.

Either way neither translation lines up with John 5:28-29. KJ - 2 raising of dead mixed with good and bad. Missler - 2 raising of dead first good then bad. I'm studying trying to put the full story together myself. Have no answer yet but your point is well taken.It doesn't line up only because you assume "many" is not all. Other than that, the two passages line up perfectly. There is also this verse:

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. - Acts 24:15

What this verse tells us is that there will be a singular resurrection of the dead. And this resurrection of the dead will include both the just and the unjust. This lines up with what is said in Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29, which speak of one general resurrection of all the dead with believers and unbelievers going to different fates (everlasting life or everlasting contempt and damnation).

Eric

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 06:15 PM
There are many in the group of the just who will be resurrection unto life.

There are many in the group of the unjust who will be resurrected unto damnation.

All who are in the graves wll come out on that day.

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. "

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

yoSAMite
Feb 12th 2008, 07:27 PM
Thanks David, John146 & Firstfruits. I'm not quite buying it yet but it is something to dig into more.

Firstfruits
Feb 12th 2008, 07:34 PM
Thanks David, John146 & Firstfruits. I'm not quite buying it yet but it is something to dig into more.

2 Tim 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Firstfruits

David Taylor
Feb 12th 2008, 08:06 PM
Thanks David, John146 & Firstfruits. I'm not quite buying it yet but it is something to dig into more.

Good to hear it...I know when I did that type of digging years ago, and began to see and become familiarized with the Jesus fulfillment of Daniel (not the modern Antichrist fulfillment); things sure did seem to make better sense.

Another thing that might be of value to you is this. (I know it helped me in my past study of this passage).

You will find no Church Historical writers who interpret Daniel 9 as applying to a future endtime antichrist prior to the 19th century.

All Church writers, whether Reformers, or Catholic or Orthodox; throughout history taught that Daniel 9 was fulfilled in Christ.

Here are some commentaries of Daniel 9; written prior to the 19th century that show this historical foundation.

I hope they are of value.

1500s - John Calvin Commentary on Daniel 9 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom25.iv.xxxvi.html)
1560 - Geneva Study Bible Commentary on Daniel 9 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=da&chapter=009)
1642 - Isaac Newton Commentary on Daniel 9 (http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/isaac_newton/prophecies/daniel10.html)
1706 - Matthew Henry Commentary on Daniel 9 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=da&chapter=009)
1754 - John Wesley Commentary on Daniel 9 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=da&chapter=009)
1798 - Adam Clarke Commentary on Daniel 9 (http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkedan9.htm)
1871 - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary on Daniel 9 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/jfb.cgi?book=da&chapter=009)

They all historically interpretted Daniel 9 to Jesus Christ.

Not until the writings of John Nelson Darby and Cyris Scoffield, did the antichrist variation interpretation begin to be taught and popularized.

John146
Feb 12th 2008, 08:32 PM
Thanks David, John146 & Firstfruits. I'm not quite buying it yet but it is something to dig into more.

I can respect that (Acts 17:10-11). Let us know what you find and then we can continue discussing it if you wish.