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Christian_lady
Jan 19th 2008, 06:35 PM
Anyone mind if we begin a study on the book of Jude?

It's a relatively short book, just before Revelations.

CL

AlainaJ
Jan 19th 2008, 06:37 PM
I love Jude...I would be all for a study:)

RoadWarrior
Jan 19th 2008, 07:09 PM
Anyone might if we begin a study on the book of Jude?

It's a relatively short book, just before Revelations.

CL

It's a short book, but there's a lot in it! I'm interested in participating.

Christian_lady
Jan 20th 2008, 12:49 AM
Ok then I guess we start just the three of us.

This post hasn't been shifted around so I guess that means it's ok to do a Bible Study on this forum.

I can begin the discussion. I would ask that we do not write our personal opinions since they can be misleading, or that we clearly state an opinion is an opinion before we write it.

What I have discovered about the book itself (so far) is that it is written by Jesus' half brother Jude. He calls himself the brother of James (Jesus' other half brother) but makes no reference to being related to Jesus. I found this interesting, perhaps it indicates that spiritual relationships are sometimes more important than relationships based on blood.

Re-reading the book, it seems there is a focus on the false teachings in some Churches. It seems these teachers are totally perverted.

Verse 4: For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

It seems these teachers do not consider Jesus as God and they are run by their raw emotions.

Verse 10: But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.

I guess it is the reminder that all our actions, speech and thoughts should be here to glorify His name, not our own, and that we are not to be governed by our emotions but rather following God's will which is expressed through the Holy Spirit and the Bible itself.

CL

RoadWarrior
Jan 20th 2008, 12:57 AM
CL, I have church tonight, so it will be tomorrow before I can jump in. I'll see you then...

evrgreenjhawk
Jan 20th 2008, 01:23 AM
CL, I don't understand your reference to "emotions"? I can see belief, understanding and maybe knowledge or wisdom, but not emotion...?

Christian_lady
Jan 20th 2008, 01:44 AM
Hey! I previously wrote that emotions are not what should be governing us, rather our will to glorify His name.

evrgreenjhawk
Jan 20th 2008, 01:50 AM
I understand and read that ;), I just don't see where either verse you posted make any reference to emotions being the cause for their actions....

AlainaJ
Jan 20th 2008, 03:59 AM
Jude.1


[1] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
[2] Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
[3] Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
[4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude expresses what we all should do...earnestly contend for the faith. When we hear doctrines that are not written in the Word of God, we should contend for the truth.

The original gospel was deleived to the apostles, but as the church began to grow, false teachings and doctrines began to creep in.


These false teachings were from Satan himself. When Satan realized the Church was forming...his next move was to subvert the Word and prevent men from knowing the truth. So, his masquerading angels began to spread lies and deciet...the church would eventually splinter and divide from this.


Notice the false teachers were ordained to do what they were doing. They turned the grace of God into...the you can do anyting you want teaching and still be saved.

Jude is saying grace is not a license to Sin. Paul also teaches this concept. Those of us who are born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit are convicted of our sins and as we matue in Christ our desire to sin is diminshed. Also, by doing this they were actually denying Jesus.

WOW! So, if we change the gopsel and add and subtract from the Word or give people the license to sin with out repentance...we are denying the Lord.

[5] I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Moses led the children of Isreal out of Egypt, but not all of them were saved from the wrath of God......even though they followed Moses out, they sinned and worshipped other Gods and there for died. Why did they die?......they didn't trust and beleive God enough to follow Him...even when it looks hopeless. They got scared and worshipped idols.



[6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The fallen angels who rebelled will stand before the Lord on judgment day, when they will be cast into the lake of fire...where all the unsaved will be.

[7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

How scarry for this nation. The judgement of God will be against all those who forsake His Word. Yet, "chruches and denominations' today are ordaining openly gay clergy and teaching beleivers they can continue in the abominable lifestyles, with out facing the wrath of God.


[8] Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

These sinners do not follow the Lord..hense despise His authority and Word....they change His Word to allow them to sin.


This was all happening at the time of the apostles...even 1 John speaks of false teachers and does Paul.

Satan knew what to do...and he still is doing it today.


Let us not be ignorant of his devises, but, ask wisdom from the Lord in descerning false doctrine from Truth.



Look foward to your thoughts,

God Bless,
Alaina

Christian_lady
Jan 20th 2008, 03:02 PM
God bless you Alaina. That was a wonderful thing that you wrote.

Verse 10 describes how some people of this Church are led by their animal instinct, or 'raw emotions' - i.e. if it feels good, do it.

That is what Jude is writing against, he argues that Jesus is the way.

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 20th 2008, 03:29 PM
Jude.1


[1] WOW! So, if we change the gopsel and add and subtract from the Word or give people the license to sin with out repentance...we are denying the Lord.[/COLOR]

[/SIZE]
Yes, there is NO GREY AREA!! The truth is the truth and ANY variation of it, as slight as it may be, is false. And all things false are seperate from God.

Good stuff.

BTW John Macarthur wrote a book called 'The Truth War' that really digs into this epistle. I highly recommend.

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 20th 2008, 03:38 PM
Let us not be ignorant of his devises, but, ask wisdom from the Lord in descerning false doctrine from Truth.





[/SIZE]
Psalm 3:21-22

Preserve sound judgement and discernment,
do not let them out of your sight;
they will be life for you,
an ornament to grace your neck.



.

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 20th 2008, 07:41 PM
And all things false are seperate from God.


Oops, I stand corrected... for neither death, nor life nor angels, nmor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor heith nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Jesus Christ our Lord.


...my bad, but still...

RoadWarrior
Jan 20th 2008, 08:25 PM
...What I have discovered about the book itself (so far) is that it is written by Jesus' half brother Jude. He calls himself the brother of James (Jesus' other half brother) but makes no reference to being related to Jesus. I found this interesting, perhaps it indicates that spiritual relationships are sometimes more important than relationships based on blood.
...

Hi CL,

I'm back. :pp

Recently I did a Kay Arthur book study, "Lord Teach Me to Study the Bible in 28 Days" in which Jude is included.

One of the first things brought to our attention is to notice who the writer is - Jude. Interestingly, Jude states his credentials and his purpose for writing, then no longer talks of himself.

There are two scriptures which give us the clue that this is the brother of Jesus - Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3. They are equivalent.


Mk 6:3 Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?" So they were offended at Him. NKJV

This scripture is a good one, as we may sometimes get asked why we think Jesus had brothers and sisters. As you noted Jude does not claim Jesus as his brother, but he calls himself the servant of Jesus. I also think (as you imply) that our relationship with Jesus as Lord and Savior is more important than our relationships with our blood-born brothers and sisters.

Thanks for starting this thread!

Christian_lady
Jan 21st 2008, 02:48 AM
Hey this is cool, we are getting the ball rolling.

I just came back from a day of Church hopping so I am a bit wiped but hopefully Jude will give me a second wind.

I find the 'false teachers' the most facinating (not sure why).

<verses 8-9>
In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings.
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Here Jude calls the teachers "dreamers" which might be linked to their raw emotional way of living...they might be living in a dream world where they are only living to satisfy their raw needs and desires. Also the word "dream" might indicate they are far from the truth (i.e. Jesus Christ).

These teachers also "pollute" their own bodies. This is very relevant to our society today. It seems our society preaches that no one has the right to tell other people their way of living is not 'ok' (i.e. to have pre-marital sex, to be homosexual, to have children out of wedlock, etc.) It might be my imagination but it seems that we live in a society that if the person is above 18, he/she has the right to act any way they wish as long as they are 'happy'.

Next they reject authority which must be the only authority we are to submit wholeheartedly to - Jesus Christ.

Continuing, these teachers slander celestial beings which might indicate they bad-talk God, Jesus, the prophets, angels and the word. Jude brings a scene of the angel Michael who had self-control. When we was battling Satan, Michael spoke with scripture and said the Lord will rebuke him.

I suppose this was used as a contrast to these teachers who seemed to say whatever was on their mind with no thought of consequences. Even when Michael was confronted by Satan he refused to give in to anger or slander but challenged him with words of the Lord (which is what Jesus also did in the wilderness).

Speaking personally, this is a nice lesson for myself if and when I am challenged by Satan. I will choose to challenge him with verses from the Bible.

CL :-)

RoadWarrior
Jan 21st 2008, 03:04 AM
Wow, CL, you are zipping through it! At this rate you'll be done before I get started! I'm still thinking of the writer, and why he wrote the book!

In verse 3, Jude tells us that he wanted to write about the subject of salvation, but that he had to change his message and write about the threat to the faith. Here we see his purpose - "to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints."

So, your being fascinated with the false teachers is exactly what Jude wants to focus on. They are the ones who threaten the very existence of the church.

In verse 4, he brings attention to them, that they have "crept in unnoticed" which means they came in looking like Christians, but that they deny Christ.

Christian_lady
Jan 21st 2008, 03:24 AM
No worries Road Warrior. People can write books on the book of Jude. :rofl:

It's interesting you are focusing on why Jude wrote this book and I am focused on the corrupt teachers, because that IS one of the reasons why he wrote the book.;)

And it's interesting that history repeats itself considering sometimes people say they are Christian and then do completely odd things (i.e. ungodly).

CL

RoadWarrior
Jan 21st 2008, 03:35 AM
No worries Road Warrior. People can write books on the book of Jude. :rofl:

It's interesting you are focusing on why Jude wrote this book and I am focused on the corrupt teachers, because that IS one of the reasons why he wrote the book.;)

And it's interesting that history repeats itself considering sometimes people say they are Christian and then do completely odd things (i.e. ungodly).

CL


I think I'm just going more slowly than you are. I think it can be seen that it is THE reason he wrote the book.

But it was your study in the first place, so carry on.

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 21st 2008, 03:42 AM
"to contend earnestly for the faith

I think the point of this epistel is that false teaching is one of Satans greatest weapons and when we as a church tend to let this or that slide instead of 'contending earnestly for the faith' then Satans plan is executed to perfection.

I believe Satan was also the author of the slippery slope effect.

Christian_lady
Jan 21st 2008, 12:58 PM
I think the point of this epistel is that false teaching is one of Satans greatest weapons and when we as a church tend to let this or that slide instead of 'contending earnestly for the faith' then Satans plan is executed to perfection.

I believe Satan was also the author of the slippery slope effect.

God Bless you Gulah for reminding us of this terrible truth.

And RoadWarrior, please don't think of this as "my" study, it's so much more colorful when different people express themselves in different ways.

I want you to stay in this study and write the way you want.:hug:

RoadWarrior
Jan 21st 2008, 04:24 PM
...
And RoadWarrior, please don't think of this as "my" study, it's so much more colorful when different people express themselves in different ways.

I want you to stay in this study and write the way you want.:hug:

Thanks, CL. I think we all have different approaches to how we study the Bible. I learned the Kay Arthur way last summer, and it has deeply and profoundly affected the way I handle scripture.

It seems important to me that we really understand that Jude is writing this letter as an exhortation, that it is a letter of warning of the danger. This is not about danger outside of the church, but of danger inside the church.

So it is easy to look around at the outside and say look how awful they are in America (or whichever country you live in) but think everything is hunky-dory for you and your friends because you are in the church. Jude is saying, the danger is not out there, it is right beside you on the church pew, or even worse, it is in the very pulpit. For us on this board, it might be the poster who follows up your post on one of the "debate" issues.

This is why it's so important to know why he was writing the letter.

Thanks for starting the study, CL. More people need to pay attention to this. We need to know what to do about it.

RoadWarrior
Jan 21st 2008, 05:04 PM
Now that I have made my point about why Jude wrote the letter ... ;) :lol:
i can move on and see who it is he is warning us about. CL already did some of this work


...
I find the 'false teachers' the most facinating (not sure why).

<verses 8-9>
In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings.
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Here Jude calls the teachers "dreamers" which might be linked to their raw emotional way of living...they might be living in a dream world where they are only living to satisfy their raw needs and desires. Also the word "dream" might indicate they are far from the truth (i.e. Jesus Christ).

These teachers also "pollute" their own bodies. This is very relevant to our society today. It seems our society preaches that no one has the right to tell other people their way of living is not 'ok' (i.e. to have pre-marital sex, to be homosexual, to have children out of wedlock, etc.) It might be my imagination but it seems that we live in a society that if the person is above 18, he/she has the right to act any way they wish as long as they are 'happy'.

Next they reject authority which must be the only authority we are to submit wholeheartedly to - Jesus Christ.

Continuing, these teachers slander celestial beings which might indicate they bad-talk God, Jesus, the prophets, angels and the word. Jude brings a scene of the angel Michael who had self-control. When we was battling Satan, Michael spoke with scripture and said the Lord will rebuke him.

I suppose this was used as a contrast to these teachers who seemed to say whatever was on their mind with no thought of consequences. Even when Michael was confronted by Satan he refused to give in to anger or slander but challenged him with words of the Lord (which is what Jesus also did in the wilderness).

Speaking personally, this is a nice lesson for myself if and when I am challenged by Satan. I will choose to challenge him with verses from the Bible.

CL :-)

Jude warned us in verse 4, that these are ungodly men. There are several references to the ungodly as we go through the rest of the book, and I'll list what I see.

v5 - those who did not believe
v6 - angels who left their proper domain
v7 - Sodom and Gomorrah, (s. immorality and going after strange flesh)
v8 - dreamers (defile the flesh, reject authority, speak evil of dignitaries)
v9 - the devil
10a - those speaking evil of that which they don't understand
10b - corrupting themselves in what they know naturally (like brute beasts)
11 - gone in the way of Cain, run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, rebelled along with Korah
12a - spots in your love feasts, serving themselves
12b - clouds without water, carried about by the winds, late autumn trees without fruit
12c - twice dead, pulled up by the roots
13a - raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame
13b - wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever
15 - ungodly men who have committed ungodly deeds in an ungodly way, and as ungodly sinners they have spoken harsh things against Him.
16a - grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts
16b - talking big, flattering people to gain advantage
17a - (we were warned by the apostles there would be these ...) mockers who walk according to their own ungodly lusts,
17b - sensual persons without the Holy Spirit, who cause divisions

I think looking at it this way helps us to more readily identify who these ungodly persons are. CL mentioned people who are driven by emotion, but I think we see a lot more than that here. we see people who are driven by lusts, desire for power, people who seek their own advantage and do not care about others.

Verses 5 and 10 stand out to me because these are subtle beside all the others, but they are at the root of it. These are people who do not believe, and who talk about (or teach about) things that they do not know or understand. These are the most dangerous ones to us who believe, because they pretend to know and to believe, but twist the words of God to say something just a bit different from what God is saying clearly in the whole book. They build doctrines on picked-out verses, and make that a foundation for a whole structure of teaching. New believers or those who have not learned to Berean (search out) the scriptures for themselves can be deceived. Therein is the danger. This is Jude's warning about the false teachers.

Verses 16-17 show these:
grumblers, complainers, flatterers, mockers, persons who cause divisions

These are more likely to be not the teachers, but the ones on the pew next to you. They are the gossipers, the ones who slander and spread malicious tales, true or untrue. It could even happen to us, when we are not walking by the Spirit, but allowing ourselves to be affected by the ungodly ones. The danger here is that we fall into the same errors.

Thanks for listening to my view!

RoadWarrior
Jan 21st 2008, 05:38 PM
Since I expect to be busy later, I want to throw in my next post, because we need to see who we are in contrast to the ungodly people!

v1 - called, sanctified by God the Father, preserved in Jesus Christ
3 - beloved, having faith and salvation in common with Jude
3b - saints - the ones who should contend earnestly for the faith
5 - needing to be reminded of something we once knew
5b - believers (in contrast to the ones who did not believe)
6 - keeping our own domain and proper abode
12 - having love feasts, serving one another,
14 - holy ones
17 - beloved, who are to remember the words of the apostles
20 - building ourselves up in our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 - keeping ourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life
22 - people of compassion, but with discernment
23 - saving the ones we can, but with fear for the danger we are near when we do so
24a - kept from stumbling by Him, and presented faultless by Him,
24b - made to stand before the presence of His glory
24c - having exceeding joy when that happens

Have a blessed day!

AlainaJ
Jan 21st 2008, 07:07 PM
I think the point of this epistel is that false teaching is one of Satans greatest weapons and when we as a church tend to let this or that slide instead of 'contending earnestly for the faith' then Satans plan is executed to perfection.

I believe Satan was also the author of the slippery slope effect.
Yes, Satan is the father of all evil and all lies.

All false teachings and doctrines come from him.

Christian_lady
Jan 21st 2008, 08:04 PM
Yes, Satan is the father of all evil and all lies.

All false teachings and doctrines come from him.

So true Alaina!

Since we are on the topic of false teachers, I'm not sure if it was mentioned but aparently some teachers of this Church argued that salvation is automatically granted so people are entitled to sin (because you are guaranteed to go to Heaven).

That is not true at all, of course the ten commandments are not a reminder of how we come short to the glory of God but His promise that He will help us to reach that perfection (or close to it).

CL

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 22nd 2008, 01:22 AM
Ya know, I have always found the word 'dreamers' in verse 8 kind of odd and out od place. Does anyone know the true definition of the word in the original text from which it was translated?


also, verse 22...man, I just love that verse!

RoadWarrior
Jan 22nd 2008, 01:38 AM
Ya know, I have always found the word 'dreamers' in verse 8 kind of odd and out od place. Does anyone know the true definition of the word in the original text from which it was translated?

also, verse 22...man, I just love that verse!

Hi GP,

Dreamers, nothing fancy about the Greek - it's about people who dream.
The word dreamers is innocent enough, until you put filthy in front of it.

The filthy dreamers are said in verse 8 to "defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries"

Notice who is in verse 7, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah "having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh" - I think that gives us a clue to what the "filthy dreamers" are teaching.

The commentaries are all over the place, but pretty much it seems that they are themselves believing (and living) the lies that they are teaching.

God is pretty clear on this issue, you can't walk with God and live in sexual immorality of any kind.

v 22, yes, such were some of us ... but we were snatched from the fire and now we walk with God.

Christian_lady
Jan 22nd 2008, 04:08 AM
I thought I would comment on verse 7:

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Jude uses this as an example and comparison to these immoral Church-goers.

Sodom and Gomorrah were aparently fruitful cities but the inhabitants turned away from God.

They experimented with their bodies in ungodly ways :cry:

The interesting thing is that these cities were burned up by fire and possibly still burning while Jude was writing this book.

Presently, it is argued that the cities might have been located near the Dead Sea (Genesis 14:1-3, Genesis 14:8-10, Deuteronomy 34:3).

Recently it is discovered through excavation that bronze age cities near the Dead Sea show evidence of burning and traces of sulfur on many of the stones. :rolleyes: Hmmmm......Interesting.

I think the major point is that although we are granted salvation and Jesus took on the sins of the world - there is such a thing as the wrath of God. Jesus' blood is not a free ride! God is forgiving but He is also just. ;)

RoadWarrior
Jan 22nd 2008, 04:33 AM
I thought I would comment on verse 7:

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
...
The interesting thing is that these cities were burned up by fire and possibly still burning while Jude was writing this book.

Presently, it is argued that the cities might have been located near the Dead Sea (Genesis 14:1-3, Genesis 14:8-10, Deuteronomy 34:3).

Recently it is discovered through excavation that bronze age cities near the Dead Sea show evidence of burning and traces of sulfur on many of the stones. :rolleyes: Hmmmm......Interesting.

I think the major point is that although we are granted salvation and Jesus took on the sins of the world - there is such a thing as the wrath of God. Jesus' blood is not a free ride! God is forgiving but He is also just. ;)

I also think the same. It's not a ticket to heaven and then you can do as you please. It is a new life, one to be lived as a Godly person, not as the ungodly ones. That is the teaching of Jude. There is an accounting for ungodly behavior.

Sodom and Gomorrah were burned during the time of Abraham. I don't think the cities were still burning 4000 years later. The words "eternal fire" don't mean the cities burned eternally. It means that the fire is eternal, it is Holy fire, from God.

I have some friends who have been involved in some of those excavations, and found it very exciting. It is interesting how much archeology is proving scripture. Maybe Fenris has some insight in those sites.

Tanya~
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:23 AM
Not long ago on this board, a member posted about this technique he learned where he could actually control his dreams, and act out his desires in dreams. Apparently, this is something that people do.

Whether this is what Jude is talking about or not isn't clear, but what is clear that by dreaming, these false teachers defile the flesh.

CL, I'm wondering why you keep referring to a particular church. It seems to me that Jude is speaking to believers in general, not a particular local church since it isn't addressed to a local church.


Jude 1
Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

This letter was written for and intended to be circulated among all the churches.

coldfire136
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:54 AM
AlainaJ
These false teachings were from Satan himself. When Satan realized the Church was forming...his next move was to subvert the Word and prevent men from knowing the truth. So, his masquerading angels began to spread lies and deciet...the church would eventually splinter and divide from this.

This is interesting, Alaina. The TEXT says that it was "men" (v. 4) that brought in the false teachings. All your thoughts about Satan are extrapolations and are not part of the text. Alaina then goes on to argue that these false teachers proclaim the "you can do anything you want teaching and still be saved." It is interesting that she has made thsi particular part of Jude into an issue of salvation. What Jude has suggested is that this group has exchanged grace for a license to immorality. Jude never mentions salvation as a central issue. The central issue, as Alaina later notes, is their denial of Jesus Christ as a result of their license for sin. The text flows much better if you do not go farther than the Biblical author goes. The author does not talk about a denial of salvation, but a denial of Jesus Christ himself.

This book, from my reading of it, is not a book dealing with the problem of salvation, but of apostacy (denying Christ after you have entered into the Christian life and the implications of such a denial). Scholars note that the book was probably written at the end of the first century, and this means that it was also written after the death of Paul, Peter and many other early church leaders. It is part of the "general epistles" and is usually considered fringe literature (less important than the weightier theological books like the gospels and the undisputed Pauline epistles like Romans/Galatians). It was written to a group of probably Jewish Christians who had already been taught about Christ and were wavering in their faith in light of increasing persecution by both the Romans and the Jews (who considered Christianity an illegitimate child of Judaism).

This is why Alaina's focus on the "gospel" in the first four verses is good, but incomplete because the gospel is not the primary message of this book. The primary message is how to live out the gospel that the people already understand in light of increasingly persecution.

Alaina's comments on Jude's commentary on the Egyptian deliverance for Israel are also interesting. She notes that the Israelites did not worship God "even when it seemed hopeless." This is very close to the way the readers at this time would have probably viewed it. The earlier epistles such as 1 Thessalonians seem to suggest that writers like Paul thought the paraousia (coming) of Christ would happen within their lifetimes (you can also find this in the gospels). What the later writers must deal with is why the coming is so delayed. There are questions now of how to live in light of governmental authorities (i.e., the people need more teaching that simply rendering onto Caesar's what is Caesar's). The recipients of Jude's message wanted to know if God could still hear them--if God still cared. Jude is taking them back to early Jewish history when we can clearly see that God did care.

Christian_lady
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:38 PM
What do you say if we turn our focus to the apocolypse mentioned in the book of Jude?

If that's going too fast no problems from CL ;)

RoadWarrior
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:43 PM
What do you say if we turn our focus to the apocolypse mentioned in the book of Jude?

If that's going too fast no problems from CL ;)

Do you mean verses 5-7, which tells how God deals with unbelievers? Go for it!

AlainaJ
Jan 22nd 2008, 10:17 PM
Jude.1

[8] Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
[9] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
[10] But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
[11] Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Jude is clearly telling these Chrisitians that the false beleivers mentioned in the above verses are with out water. Intersting..void of the Living Water, which is Jesus.Notice they have no fruit, they are dead and ready to be thrown into the fire..why becuase they have turned the grace of God into lasciviousness or a license to sin,
[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
I have read the books of Enoch..very old an fascination..no debates please...but I find it fascinating that Jude qutes them exactly...you can look it up. Why? Perhaps Jude knew they were inspired by God?
[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. God's judgement is against all the ungodly......unsaved, sinners, hypocrites...all..notice many of these people actually have spoken against God.
[16] These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
These people although at the Christian feasts are not Christians. They follow their lusts, they lie and use their positions for gain.
[17] But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
[18] How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude reminds these beleivers that Jesus spoke of the coming apostasy..we are here now, more then ever. The last days began at Pentacost and it has gotten worse and worse. These so-called beleivers mock God and do not obey Him.
[19] These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jude tells the Christians these false beleivers that have infiltated them. Notice..these false beleivers do not have the spirit of God.
[20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
We are to always pray in the Spirit and build up our faith with our prayng.



The book of Jude is a warning to us today....are those we feast with and do ministry with and teach with following God or their own fleshly lusts? Jude says to beware of these kind of people..why? becuase their lies will infect the body of Christ . Satan is the one who wants to detroy the church. Remember the wheat and tares......good and bad seeds grwoing up together....

Let us be aware that we have enemies around us and let us pray in the Spirit of discenement. May we know a tree by it's fruit.

God Bless

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2008, 10:50 PM
This is interesting, Alaina. The TEXT says that it was "men" (v. 4) that brought in the false teachings. All your thoughts about Satan are extrapolations and are not part of the text. Alaina then goes on to argue that these false teachers proclaim the "you can do anything you want teaching and still be saved." It is interesting that she has made thsi particular part of Jude into an issue of salvation. What Jude has suggested is that this group has exchanged grace for a license to immorality. Jude never mentions salvation as a central issue. The central issue, as Alaina later notes, is their denial of Jesus Christ as a result of their license for sin. The text flows much better if you do not go farther than the Biblical author goes. The author does not talk about a denial of salvation, but a denial of Jesus Christ himself.

This book, from my reading of it, is not a book dealing with the problem of salvation, but of apostacy (denying Christ after you have entered into the Christian life and the implications of such a denial). Scholars note that the book was probably written at the end of the first century, and this means that it was also written after the death of Paul, Peter and many other early church leaders. It is part of the "general epistles" and is usually considered fringe literature (less important than the weightier theological books like the gospels and the undisputed Pauline epistles like Romans/Galatians). It was written to a group of probably Jewish Christians who had already been taught about Christ and were wavering in their faith in light of increasing persecution by both the Romans and the Jews (who considered Christianity an illegitimate child of Judaism).

This is why Alaina's focus on the "gospel" in the first four verses is good, but incomplete because the gospel is not the primary message of this book. The primary message is how to live out the gospel that the people already understand in light of increasingly persecution.

Alaina's comments on Jude's commentary on the Egyptian deliverance for Israel are also interesting. She notes that the Israelites did not worship God "even when it seemed hopeless." This is very close to the way the readers at this time would have probably viewed it. The earlier epistles such as 1 Thessalonians seem to suggest that writers like Paul thought the paraousia (coming) of Christ would happen within their lifetimes (you can also find this in the gospels). What the later writers must deal with is why the coming is so delayed. There are questions now of how to live in light of governmental authorities (i.e., the people need more teaching that simply rendering onto Caesar's what is Caesar's). The recipients of Jude's message wanted to know if God could still hear them--if God still cared. Jude is taking them back to early Jewish history when we can clearly see that God did care.

Actually.... this wasn't how to live your life amid persecution... the focus is on the false teaching.

And on an official note... if you have something to add to the study then that is fine. Let your belief be known. But do it without making it all about AlainaJ... that isn't necessary and one might think you really care more about pointing out her "error" than actually showing anything that is of good.

coldfire136
Jan 22nd 2008, 11:14 PM
Actually.... this wasn't how to live your life amid persecution... the focus is on the false teaching.

And on an official note... if you have something to add to the study then that is fine. Let your belief be known. But do it without making it all about AlainaJ... that isn't necessary and one might think you really care more about pointing out her "error" than actually showing anything that is of good.

Hi Peter,
Sorry if I came off heavy-handed to Alaina. I don't mean to. I will be equally critical of all points of view. I will spend a little bit of time now showing why I believe the book IS about life amid persecution.

Notice that the author argues to contend for a faith that has been "handed down" (v. 3). This lets us know that the early formulations of Christ's message, as embodied through the disciples and other early followers, has been somewhat solidified and "handed down." In other words, the teachings are being passed down from the first generation of Christ's followers (those who heard and dwelt with Christ) to those who are taking the baton on to a new generation of faith.

The main problem is that we cannot for sure, in the context of the first century, who these "false teachers" were (v. 4). The author does explain somewhat who these teachers were. We know, for example, that they practiced licentiousness (lack of sexual restraint). Beyond some of the teachings of these false teachers, however, we know little about them. The author focuses instead on a rhetorical argument against the false teachers and puts the audience of the letter at the center stage.

The first comparison is to those first-generation Jews who had been rescued out of the land of Egypt. We know that the major fault of the Jews at this time was making a graven image of Elohim (Exodus 23). But most people do not understand the context of Exodus 23. If you look at the word for "a god" in Exodus 23, the word in Hebrew is Elohim (the same word used for God throughout the Bible including Genesis one). The Jews were not idiots and neither were the other cultures of the time. The cultures of the time did not consider Ba'al or Asherah idols the actually gods themselves, but they considered them representations of the divine image. The Jews were not idiots and, thus, they understand as well that graven images were not gods themselves, but representations of the greater god in the heavens. In other words, what the Hebrews were doing in Exodus 23 was creating an image of Yahweh in the forms they understood as outlined by their culture. If Yahweh had been any other god, he would have been pleased with such an image, but Yahweh, the one true living God, would have no inscription made of him in any way, shape or form. The way of Yahweh is completely seperate from anything else that has been taught in the ancient near east, but the Jews don't understand it. The Jews want to do what everyone else is doing.

This is the problem of the church for every generation: how to follow Yahweh in a world that is always bowing to other gods.

There is pressure and perseuction in the early first century by many emperors such as Nero to put down the Christian movment. But the perseuction does not just come from the top. Pliny the younger begins killing those Christians who do not burn incense to Caesar, and many Jews consider the Christians heretics of the Jewish faith. They have no nation and they have no real political sway in the government. Most philosophers from the next few centuries make Christianity out to be a religion that undermines government and provokes anger because they break from the tradition of worshipping the one true universal god. This is the audience that the author of Jude was writing to.

And the problem of Jude is this: how can we be different from those who fell down in unbelief in this new wilderness. The people of Jude are again living the Jewish life between Egypt (slavery) and Canaan (the promised land). They are wanderers without a home. It would be easier to just burn incense to Caesar, apostate so as to not be killed by Nero, or to go Judaism so that they would not be considered illegimate children in a world where most thought of Christians as uneducated revolutionaries with no real purpose. It would indeed be easier to go the way of the 3,000 who were killed the day. Indeed, it would be better for some to simply cling to the old ways of Egypt and forget the promise of the land because it seems hopeless. Alaina brought this point up well by noting how hopeless it must have seemed for many Christians living during this time.
The main question of Jude is this: will they go the way of Cain or the way of righteousness? Will they give into persecution and doubt, or stand steadfast waiting for the return and parousia (coming) of Christ? The goal is to "keep yourself in the love of God" by "waiting anxiously" for Jesus Christ (v. 21). They are called to have mercy on the doubters (v. 24). This is really an age of doubt, and we have to get to the original context to really understand this. The question is whether these societal pressures will keep us standing strong or if we will give up.

FaithfulSheep
Jan 23rd 2008, 03:39 AM
What do you say if we turn our focus to the apocolypse mentioned in the book of Jude?

If that's going too fast no problems from CL ;)

My Bible has a pretty good commentary on this topic that I agree with.


"...Citing a quotation from another source does not indicate that the entire work is inspired, even if the saying drawn upon is true... A prophecy may derive from God and still not be a part of canonical Scripture... Jude cited it for its truth, but he did not claim inspiration for the entire work."In other words, while some statements from the Apocolypse are true, that doesn't automatically mean that everything in there is true. (Thus why such books are not included in the Canon.)

Great study by the way! :hug:

Christian_lady
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:00 PM
Jude is not cannonized? I had no idea....I checked online and found it was at first debated but later considered as inspired.

By the way, I know I started the idea of talking about the apocoplyse and then drifted away but my mom has had minor surgury lately and I have to take care of her. I will for sure return to this study, I have a specific verse in mind.

CL ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:22 PM
Hi Peter,
Sorry if I came off heavy-handed to Alaina. I don't mean to. I will be equally critical of all points of view. I will spend a little bit of time now showing why I believe the book IS about life amid persecution.

Notice that the author argues to contend for a faith that has been "handed down" (v. 3). This lets us know that the early formulations of Christ's message, as embodied through the disciples and other early followers, has been somewhat solidified and "handed down." In other words, the teachings are being passed down from the first generation of Christ's followers (those who heard and dwelt with Christ) to those who are taking the baton on to a new generation of faith.

The main problem is that we cannot for sure, in the context of the first century, who these "false teachers" were (v. 4). The author does explain somewhat who these teachers were. We know, for example, that they practiced licentiousness (lack of sexual restraint). Beyond some of the teachings of these false teachers, however, we know little about them. The author focuses instead on a rhetorical argument against the false teachers and puts the audience of the letter at the center stage. Sure we can. It was Nicolatianism which some consider either an offshoot of Gnosticism or as I believe. Just for a bit of trivia for those reading... Many believe Nicolatianism was started by Nicolas, one of the seven men chosen as deacons in Acts 6.

Licentiousness wasn't just a lack of sexual constraint but was just simply that belief in Christ was all that was required and folks could sin and it wouldn't be counted against them. In other words... belief in Christ gave one license to sin. That is countered actually in many of the writings of Paul, Jude, Peter and John.


The first comparison is to those first-generation Jews who had been rescued out of the land of Egypt. We know that the major fault of the Jews at this time was making a graven image of Elohim (Exodus 23). But most people do not understand the context of Exodus 23. If you look at the word for "a god" in Exodus 23, the word in Hebrew is Elohim (the same word used for God throughout the Bible including Genesis one). The Jews were not idiots and neither were the other cultures of the time. The cultures of the time did not consider Ba'al or Asherah idols the actually gods themselves, but they considered them representations of the divine image. The Jews were not idiots and, thus, they understand as well that graven images were not gods themselves, but representations of the greater god in the heavens. In other words, what the Hebrews were doing in Exodus 23 was creating an image of Yahweh in the forms they understood as outlined by their culture. If Yahweh had been any other god, he would have been pleased with such an image, but Yahweh, the one true living God, would have no inscription made of him in any way, shape or form. The way of Yahweh is completely seperate from anything else that has been taught in the ancient near east, but the Jews don't understand it. The Jews want to do what everyone else is doing.

This is the problem of the church for every generation: how to follow Yahweh in a world that is always bowing to other gods.

There is pressure and perseuction in the early first century by many emperors such as Nero to put down the Christian movment. But the perseuction does not just come from the top. Pliny the younger begins killing those Christians who do not burn incense to Caesar, and many Jews consider the Christians heretics of the Jewish faith. They have no nation and they have no real political sway in the government. Most philosophers from the next few centuries make Christianity out to be a religion that undermines government and provokes anger because they break from the tradition of worshipping the one true universal god. This is the audience that the author of Jude was writing to.

And the problem of Jude is this: how can we be different from those who fell down in unbelief in this new wilderness. The people of Jude are again living the Jewish life between Egypt (slavery) and Canaan (the promised land). They are wanderers without a home. It would be easier to just burn incense to Caesar, apostate so as to not be killed by Nero, or to go Judaism so that they would not be considered illegimate children in a world where most thought of Christians as uneducated revolutionaries with no real purpose. It would indeed be easier to go the way of the 3,000 who were killed the day. Indeed, it would be better for some to simply cling to the old ways of Egypt and forget the promise of the land because it seems hopeless. Alaina brought this point up well by noting how hopeless it must have seemed for many Christians living during this time.
The main question of Jude is this: will they go the way of Cain or the way of righteousness? Will they give into persecution and doubt, or stand steadfast waiting for the return and parousia (coming) of Christ? The goal is to "keep yourself in the love of God" by "waiting anxiously" for Jesus Christ (v. 21). They are called to have mercy on the doubters (v. 24). This is really an age of doubt, and we have to get to the original context to really understand this. The question is whether these societal pressures will keep us standing strong or if we will give up.
And again... that's all well and good. But that wasn't the theme of Jude.

Let's try this.

Jude 1:3 ¶Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Jude was just going to write to them about their common faith. Encourage them etc. But now he felt he needed to write to them about something else. It isn't persecution and enduring through it. That's not what it says. It is about the need to earnestly contend for the faith. Why? Answered very clearly in the next verse.

Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

He then goes on giving examples and thus uses the Scripture which is for our example... Paul makes that clear a number of times.

He ends with this.

Jude 1:17 ¶But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
18 that they were saying to you, "In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit;
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
24 ¶Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

He is still talking about those false teachers. He encourages them at the end of this very short letter to again... earnestly contend for the faith.

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:34 PM
Jude is not cannonized? I had no idea....I checked online and found it was at first debated but later considered as inspired.

By the way, I know I started the idea of talking about the apocoplyse and then drifted away but my mom has had minor surgury lately and I have to take care of her. I will for sure return to this study, I have a specific verse in mind.

CL ;)
Luther and a few others didn't want Jude in the Bible along with Hebrews, James, Ruth, and a couple of other books. They believed them "to Jewish". Truth is... those books gave him fits with his belief that is was FAITH ALONE. The word "alone" was added in Luther's German translation and you will still see it in some of the older translations of his. Problem is... the word "alone" was not in the Greek and was highly contradicted by the book of James. So Luther's answer was to have them stricken from the Canon of Scripture. Didn't work and thank God for that.

RoadWarrior
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:46 PM
Luther and a few others didn't want Jude in the Bible along with Hebrews, James, Ruth, and a couple of other books. They believed them "to Jewish". Truth is... those books gave him fits with his belief that is was FAITH ALONE. The word "alone" was added in Luther's German translation and you will still see it in some of the older translations of his. Problem is... the word "alone" was not in the Greek and was highly contradicted by the book of James. So Luther's answer was to have them stricken from the Canon of Scripture. Didn't work and thank God for that.

It is interesting to note that as great as the "forefathers" of Christianity were, they were imperfect human beings. I agree with you, thank God that the attempt to suppress these books didn't work.

Thank you for clarifying. And thanks for jumping into ths study!

coldfire136
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:02 PM
I have feel that if I respond to Peter, we will have an unneeded debate. The text is about standing fast in the faith in the midst of false teachers. What I am trying to get across is that the primary message is so "stand fast." The central message is not on the teachings of the false teachers themselves, but to stand fast in the midst of the wilderness, in the midst of all the problems going on, and to stand fast in the faith.

There are many scholars who believe with Peter that Jude is contending against an early form of gnosticism. To choose such a specific group of people as the Nicolatians goes beyond the text. There is no way to know for sure that they are responding to a gnostic heresy.

RoadWarrior
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:11 PM
Hi Coldfire,

It's good to see you! I'm glad you are in this discussion, as I know that you are doing a lot of study in this area. Your views are valuable, even if they are over my head! I agree that debate is not what we are looking for here. :D

Perhaps if we look at this a little differently, we can find what Jude wanted for that church, and the one(s) of today, to learn. I agree that he is exhorting them to stand fast.

Whether the enemy is gnosticism, Nicolaitianism, or the multiple "isms" of today, is the message to the believer clear? Why are they in danger? Was it a mesage only for those people, or does it also apply to us?

What are we to do with his exhortation to contend earnestly for the faith? How do we do that?


I have feel that if I respond to Peter, we will have an unneeded debate. The text is about standing fast in the faith in the midst of false teachers. What I am trying to get across is that the primary message is so "stand fast." The central message is not on the teachings of the false teachers themselves, but to stand fast in the midst of the wilderness, in the midst of all the problems going on, and to stand fast in the faith.

There are many scholars who believe with Peter that Jude is contending against an early form of gnosticism. To choose such a specific group of people as the Nicolatians goes beyond the text. There is no way to know for sure that they are responding to a gnostic heresy.

coldfire136
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:20 PM
Hi RoadWarrior,
I agree as well that the primary message was to the recipients of the letter. To try and decipher what type of heresy was taking place at the time of Jude is nearly impossible because he gives no background from where he is writing or what specific audience he may be writing to. What we really have to study is the Old Testament allusions (something that I hope to discuss here at a later date).

ProjectPeter
Jan 23rd 2008, 10:03 PM
I have feel that if I respond to Peter, we will have an unneeded debate. The text is about standing fast in the faith in the midst of false teachers. What I am trying to get across is that the primary message is so "stand fast." The central message is not on the teachings of the false teachers themselves, but to stand fast in the midst of the wilderness, in the midst of all the problems going on, and to stand fast in the faith.

There are many scholars who believe with Peter that Jude is contending against an early form of gnosticism. To choose such a specific group of people as the Nicolatians goes beyond the text. There is no way to know for sure that they are responding to a gnostic heresy.
Sure there is a way... because the Nicolatians are the ones that taught license. Gnosticism has tons of bad issues... but that really wasn't one of those issues. The point though isn't that it was Nicolatianism nor was that my point. The point was that the author (possibly one of the brothers of Jesus) wants the readers to know... false brethren were infiltrating the church and their motivation was greed and lust. That was the flavor of this entire letter and it is way to short of a letter to try and have it saying something other than what it is clearly speaking of.

This isn't about debating. The Old Testament allusions, while certainly important, do not take away from the central point... there are folks out there spewing a bunch of nonsense and you need to contend for the faith and recognize this when it comes. You say that he didn't go into the teaching but I say he did... the teaching was turning grace into license... teachers bent on lust and greed (hence those Old Testament allusions ;)). That was the teaching he was warning them against as is clearly stated. It is also a teaching that is still present today some near 2000 years later... also why it is very applicable even to this day.

evrgreenjhawk
Jan 24th 2008, 12:20 AM
He is still talking about those false teachers. He encourages them at the end of this very short letter to again... earnestly contend for the faith.

Emphasis on "very short letter" not a condensed version of something more...
Sometimes a duck is just a duck :D

RoadWarrior
Jan 24th 2008, 01:07 AM
Emphasis on "very short letter" not a condensed version of something more...
Sometimes a duck is just a duck :D

?

I'm not sure what this means, or what it has to do with the study of Jude, which this thread is, not a debate. Sorry if I am a bit dense.

I'd like to bring out a point I came across in Adam Clarke's commentary, about verse 12, the "clouds without water" description of the false teachers. Adam Clarke cross-refrences this to Deuteronomy ..

Dt 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak;
And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 Let my teaching drop as the rain,
My speech distill as the dew,
As raindrops on the tender herb,
And as showers on the grass.
3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord:
Ascribe greatness to our God. NKJV

In this reference we see that clouds in spiritual language are to dispense teachings about God, proclaiming the name of the Lord, and ascribing greatness to our God.

The book of Jude is very like 2 Peter where we also see this verse:

2 Pe 2:17 17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. NKJV

Peter further includes the allusion to wells without water. I am reminded of Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well, where He promised that those who believe in Him should have living water springing up inside, and would never have to thirst any more.

If the teachers in those churches (and in ours) are not bringing the true gospel, then they, and we, find ourselves thirsting.

evrgreenjhawk
Jan 24th 2008, 01:22 AM
?

I'm not sure what this means, or what it has to do with the study of Jude, which this thread is, not a debate. Sorry if I am a bit dense.

I'd like to bring out a point I came across in Adam Clarke's commentary, about verse 12, the "clouds without water" description of the false teachers. Adam Clarke cross-refrences this to Deuteronomy ..

Dt 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak;
And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 Let my teaching drop as the rain,
My speech distill as the dew,
As raindrops on the tender herb,
And as showers on the grass.
3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord:
Ascribe greatness to our God. NKJV

In this reference we see that clouds in spiritual language are to dispense teachings about God, proclaiming the name of the Lord, and ascribing greatness to our God.

The book of Jude is very like 2 Peter where we also see this verse:

2 Pe 2:17 17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. NKJV

Peter further includes the allusion to wells without water. I am reminded of Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well, where He promised that those who believe in Him should have living water springing up inside, and would never have to thirst any more.

If the teachers in those churches (and in ours) are not bringing the true gospel, then they, and we, find ourselves thirsting.

My apologies for interrupting and my apparent lack of intuitiveness..

Peace

FaithfulSheep
Jan 24th 2008, 02:18 AM
Today I was looking at verse 4 (backing up a bit, I know...):)

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

I also have been doing some reading in an Apologetics Bible that uses more of a paraphrase translation. Sometime honestly, I don't like the translation at all... but I do here.

For certain men, who were designated for this judgment long ago, have come in by stealth; they are ungodly, turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

I think it is interesting that it says these persons have crept in unnoticed... came in by stealth. Such people would never stand a chance getting others to follow their unholy beliefs if they blew in pushing their agenda... however if they come in slowly earning friendships and trust along the way all the while deceiving others in order to get their desired results, in becomes easier for that person to accomplish their goal because it would be easier for others to believe in them and what they are trying to accomplish (whatever that may be). They have made it more personal. When things are black and white, the truth is easier for some than when it's in various shades of gray... less noticeable...

More to come later...

coldfire136
Jan 24th 2008, 02:33 AM
RoadWarrior,
Good point. Read through 2 Peter 2, and you will see that Jude and 2 Peter 2 are very similar. Most scholars think they descended from the same source.

RoadWarrior
Jan 24th 2008, 02:37 AM
RoadWarrior,
Good point. Read through 2 Peter 2, and you will see that Jude and 2 Peter 2 are very similar. Most scholars think they descended from the same source.


Is it easier to date 2Peter than to date Jude? So far I've been reading about the time of Jude, and the scholars have great difficulty trying to decide if it was written before 70 AD.

RoadWarrior
Jan 24th 2008, 02:39 AM
Today I was looking at verse 4 (backing up a bit, I know...):)

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

I also have been doing some reading in an Apologetics Bible that uses more of a paraphrase translation. Sometime honestly, I don't like the translation at all... but I do here.

For certain men, who were designated for this judgment long ago, have come in by stealth; they are ungodly, turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

I think it is interesting that it says these persons have crept in unnoticed... came in by stealth. Such people would never stand a chance getting others to follow their unholy beliefs if they blew in pushing their agenda... however if they come in slowly earning friendships and trust along the way all the while deceiving others in order to get their desired results, in becomes easier for that person to accomplish their goal because it would be easier for others to believe in them and what they are trying to accomplish (whatever that may be). They have made it more personal. When things are black and white, the truth is easier for some than when it's in various shades of gray... less noticeable...

More to come later...

Hi Jess,

Yes I notice this as well. It seems to me to be very appropriate for today, since I have personally been in a church where this happened. A new pastor was hired, he came in pretending to be one thing and turned out several months later, to hold with a terrible doctrine, which effectually destroyed the church. :eek:

coldfire136
Jan 24th 2008, 09:04 AM
I hope that we can focus for a little while on the following:

8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

Where does the author get this story of the archangel Michael?

Darren
Jan 24th 2008, 10:07 AM
I hope that we can focus for a little while on the following:

8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

Where does the author get this story of the archangel Michael?


jude penned this from the book "the assumption of moses" and along with his direct quote from the "book of enoch" earlier in the chapter, the book of jude was one of the last canonized. there was a reasonable fear of canonizing the referenced books.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2008, 12:09 PM
Emphasis on "very short letter" not a condensed version of something more...
Sometimes a duck is just a duck :DThat's exactly right though. Generally it is believed that Jude wrote that out of urgency because of the teaching going out and about at the time. I think that is probably the likely case because it was pretty much a one issue letter. That being the case... not a lot of ink and paper needed. :)

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2008, 12:10 PM
?

I'm not sure what this means, or what it has to do with the study of Jude, which this thread is, not a debate. Sorry if I am a bit dense.

I'd like to bring out a point I came across in Adam Clarke's commentary, about verse 12, the "clouds without water" description of the false teachers. Adam Clarke cross-refrences this to Deuteronomy ..

Dt 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak;
And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 Let my teaching drop as the rain,
My speech distill as the dew,
As raindrops on the tender herb,
And as showers on the grass.
3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord:
Ascribe greatness to our God. NKJV

In this reference we see that clouds in spiritual language are to dispense teachings about God, proclaiming the name of the Lord, and ascribing greatness to our God.

The book of Jude is very like 2 Peter where we also see this verse:

2 Pe 2:17 17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. NKJV

Peter further includes the allusion to wells without water. I am reminded of Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well, where He promised that those who believe in Him should have living water springing up inside, and would never have to thirst any more.

If the teachers in those churches (and in ours) are not bringing the true gospel, then they, and we, find ourselves thirsting.I don't think he was debating the point.

And just to note... many figure that Peter was furthering on Jude's letter in his second letter.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2008, 12:13 PM
jude penned this from the book "the assumption of moses" and along with his direct quote from the "book of enoch" earlier in the chapter, the book of jude was one of the last canonized. there was a reasonable fear of canonizing the referenced books.
Right... and I don't think that folks would have left Enoch out save the controversy of authorship and validity. Enoch is a fascinating book but one very much like Revelation and that probably spooked the fool out of a lot of guys! My biggest hangup would be simply the question of authenticity just as it is with the book of Jasher.

Darren
Jan 24th 2008, 01:31 PM
Right... and I don't think that folks would have left Enoch out save the controversy of authorship and validity. Enoch is a fascinating book but one very much like Revelation and that probably spooked the fool out of a lot of guys! My biggest hangup would be simply the question of authenticity just as it is with the book of Jasher.


i believe the rejection of the book of enoch goes way beyond it's pseudepigraphal nature.

there are many examples in enoch of where angels are given the authority only attributed to god or jesus in the bible.

and there are some rather farfetched ideals in other places throughout it's pages.

such as women and angels producing offspring that reach 450 feet:

7:12 Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
7:13 When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them;
7:14 And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood.
7:15 Then the earth reproved the unrighteous.

the book of jasher is even more of a stretch.

i am sorry for redirecting the op.

---darren

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2008, 02:07 PM
i believe the rejection of the book of enoch goes way beyond it's pseudepigraphal nature.

there are many examples in enoch of where angels are given the authority only attributed to god or jesus in the bible.

and there are some rather farfetched ideals in other places throughout it's pages.

such as women and angels producing offspring that reach 450 feet:

7:12 Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
7:13 When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them;
7:14 And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood.
7:15 Then the earth reproved the unrighteous.

the book of jasher is even more of a stretch.

i am sorry for redirecting the op.

---darrenI agree... hence my problem with both versions that we have. Enoch is less of a stretch than Jasher in my opinion... but still there is enough in both books for me to have that nagging authenticity question. Tis also the reason why I would never use either book for doctrinal purposes. Some do... I find that foolish. That being said... at one point in time... there was validity and it is likely that Jude quoted from a valid writing. That was then... now is another time though. :)

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2008, 02:13 PM
i believe the rejection of the book of enoch goes way beyond it's pseudepigraphal nature.

there are many examples in enoch of where angels are given the authority only attributed to god or jesus in the bible.

and there are some rather farfetched ideals in other places throughout it's pages.

such as women and angels producing offspring that reach 450 feet:

7:12 Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
7:13 When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them;
7:14 And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood.
7:15 Then the earth reproved the unrighteous.

the book of jasher is even more of a stretch.

i am sorry for redirecting the op.

---darren
And oh yeah... You didn't redirect the OP. It has come up because of the quote in Jude and it was a perfectly valid post! :)

RoadWarrior
Jan 24th 2008, 04:13 PM
And oh yeah... You didn't redirect the OP. It has come up because of the quote in Jude and it was a perfectly valid post! :)

OK, then I have a question. Should we read the two books you mention, and if so where can we find them online?

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2008, 07:24 PM
OK, then I have a question. Should we read the two books you mention, and if so where can we find them online?
No... I wouldn't bother. There is enough in them that is just weird enough to make me figure the safest bet is to just leave it alone.

RoadWarrior
Jan 24th 2008, 11:01 PM
No... I wouldn't bother. There is enough in them that is just weird enough to make me figure the safest bet is to just leave it alone.


Should we also, then, disregard Jude because it quotes those books?

FaithfulSheep
Jan 24th 2008, 11:34 PM
Should we also, then, disregard Jude because it quotes those books?

No. Go back and look at this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1509508&postcount=37) in this thread. He references the book of Enoch but that doesn't make Jude invalid just because he references a statement that is correct and Biblically aligned (even though parts of the book of Enoch are understandably not in the Canon).

coldfire136
Jan 25th 2008, 12:13 AM
I want to respond to some of the criticism here regarding the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses. First we must note, as does Bo Reicke, that:

"According to well-known authorities of the early church like Clement of Alexandria, Origen and others, the reference to Michael's contention with the devil comes from an apocryphal intertestamental book entitled 'the assumption of Moses.' This apocalyptic work has been preserved and may be read in modern editions, but unfortunately the narration about Michael and the devil is missing in all extant manuscripts. Extracts from older Greek commentaries and the Slavonic legend of Moses, however, seem to have preserved the haggadic midrash for posterity. According to these fragments the devil had reviled Moses and had called him a murderer, because he had killed the Egyptian overseer. The significant detail is that the devil's slander was directed against Moses. Jude uses this as the key to his analogy: The slanders of false teachers are parallel to those of the devil, and the dignitaries reviled by them are comparable to Moses, here as elsewhere the representative of legally constituted authority. The implied conclusion, that the teachers of heresy attacked the existing government with malicious charges, corresponds to the observation already made about these men."

Reicke also suggests that Jude is quoting from Zechariah when the devil appears there as well.

Both of these are important tools for helping us to understand the text of Jude.

RoadWarrior
Jan 25th 2008, 01:22 AM
I want to respond to some of the criticism here regarding the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses. First we must note, as does Bo Reicke, that:

"According to well-known authorities of the early church like Clement of Alexandria, Origen and others, the reference to Michael's contention with the devil comes from an apocryphal intertestamental book entitled 'the assumption of Moses.' This apocalyptic work has been preserved and may be read in modern editions, but unfortunately the narration about Michael and the devil is missing in all extant manuscripts. Extracts from older Greek commentaries and the Slavonic legend of Moses, however, seem to have preserved the haggadic midrash for posterity. According to these fragments the devil had reviled Moses and had called him a murderer, because he had killed the Egyptian overseer. The significant detail is that the devil's slander was directed against Moses. Jude uses this as the key to his analogy: The slanders of false teachers are parallel to those of the devil, and the dignitaries reviled by them are comparable to Moses, here as elsewhere the representative of legally constituted authority. The implied conclusion, that the teachers of heresy attacked the existing government with malicious charges, corresponds to the observation already made about these men."

Reicke also suggests that Jude is quoting from Zechariah when the devil appears there as well.

Both of these are important tools for helping us to understand the text of Jude.


Coldfire, that seems helpful. Do you have the reference in Zechariah?

Is it reasonable to assume that by "existing government" it is meant the church governing authorities, i.e., the bishops or whatever they were called then?

coldfire136
Jan 25th 2008, 05:39 AM
Roadwarrior,
The reference is Zechariah 3:2.

The answer to your second question is yes.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2008, 05:50 AM
No. Go back and look at this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1509508&postcount=37) in this thread. He references the book of Enoch but that doesn't make Jude invalid just because he references a statement that is correct and Biblically aligned (even though parts of the book of Enoch are understandably not in the Canon).



Exactly right!

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2008, 05:53 AM
I want to respond to some of the criticism here regarding the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses. First we must note, as does Bo Reicke, that:

"According to well-known authorities of the early church like Clement of Alexandria, Origen and others, the reference to Michael's contention with the devil comes from an apocryphal intertestamental book entitled 'the assumption of Moses.' This apocalyptic work has been preserved and may be read in modern editions, but unfortunately the narration about Michael and the devil is missing in all extant manuscripts. Extracts from older Greek commentaries and the Slavonic legend of Moses, however, seem to have preserved the haggadic midrash for posterity. According to these fragments the devil had reviled Moses and had called him a murderer, because he had killed the Egyptian overseer. The significant detail is that the devil's slander was directed against Moses. Jude uses this as the key to his analogy: The slanders of false teachers are parallel to those of the devil, and the dignitaries reviled by them are comparable to Moses, here as elsewhere the representative of legally constituted authority. The implied conclusion, that the teachers of heresy attacked the existing government with malicious charges, corresponds to the observation already made about these men."

Reicke also suggests that Jude is quoting from Zechariah when the devil appears there as well.

Both of these are important tools for helping us to understand the text of Jude.

Don't disagree with this at all.

Christian_lady
Jan 26th 2008, 06:40 PM
Hey friends, sorry I drifted away from this study but I had to take care of my mom and it has been a challenge!

But I am back now and would love to talk a bit about the Judgment which is mentioned in the book of Jude.

There is a verse that is very interesting for me:
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

This is a reminder that before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit there was a war in Heaven between Lucifer, his angels (who turned away from God) and God Himself. Satan and the fallen angels lost the battle *duh* and were sent to earth to torment us (blah!). (Revelations 12:7-9)

The book of Job reminds us that Satan or his demons cannot torment us without the permission from God Himself. This might be linked to the visual representation of being bound with chains, because the enemy is not as 'free' as he sometimes wants us to believe. ;)

Now, the verse I mentioned from Jude explains that at the Judgment, Satan, the fallen angels and humans will be judged according to their actions, speech and thoughts (i.e. whether or not we placed God above everything else).

I guess I am not really digging deep with this verse, just pointing out how it is related to the book of Jude.

CL

RoadWarrior
Jan 26th 2008, 09:45 PM
Welcome back, CL. Sorry to hear about your mom.

Verses 5-7 are a great insight into how God deals with the ungodly. You picked #6, the angels who followed Lucifer. I think the chains are on the angels; I don't see that it says Lucifer was chained, although you could be right. It doesn't say he was not including in the chaining.

#5 talks about the people who were saved out of Egypt, but then perished because of their unbelief. (Which speaks to the truth that there is more about being a Christian than just "getting saved".)

#7 speaks of the the destruction of entire cities by the means of "eternal fire", of which I want to do a separate post. Before I do that, I want to notice the ways that God deals with the ungodly as revealed in these three verses.

#5 - the people lived out their lives and died in the wilderness, having forsaken their right to enter the promised land because they refused to believe and obey God.

#6 - those who left their rightful abode have been imprisoned for a future judgment. (Could this apply to those who were Christians, but have abandoned Christianity for atheism?)

#7 - those who are defiantly against the ways of God suffer His vengeance - destruction by eternal fire.

Christian_lady
Jan 26th 2008, 10:17 PM
#6 - those who left their rightful abode have been imprisoned for a future judgment. (Could this apply to those who were Christians, but have abandoned Christianity for atheism?)



I think he was talking about the angels who have left Heaven and followed Satan. 1/3 of the angels have become fallen and that's why we have demons today.

RoadWarrior
Jan 26th 2008, 10:27 PM
I think he was talking about the angels who have left Heaven and followed Satan. 1/3 of the angels have become fallen and that's why we have demons today.

Right, CL. I agree that's what it is talking about. My question was more in the line of "how does that apply to us today" but maybe it doesn't. Maybe Christians of today are not in danger of leaving the Christian faith and fallling into the hands of an angry God.

Christian_lady
Jan 27th 2008, 02:50 AM
No we are in jeopordy today of falling under Satan's rule. But the saying goes, "It ain't over 'till it's over". The angels were created holy who chose to follow Satan. There is no 'turning back' for them unfortunately and that is why they are demons.

We (humans) live in a fallen world and are prone to sin. However, we have the opportunity to be forgiven with the blood of Jesus Christ.

RoadWarrior
Jan 27th 2008, 03:45 AM
No we are in jeopordy today of falling under Satan's rule. But the saying goes, "It ain't over 'till it's over". The angels were created holy who chose to follow Satan. There is no 'turning back' for them unfortunately and that is why they are demons.

We (humans) live in a fallen world and are prone to sin. However, we have the opportunity to be forgiven with the blood of Jesus Christ.

There have been a few people on the boards recently declaring themselves to be atheists, who were once Christians. I wonder if this applies to them, as they seem firmly entrenched in atheism:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. NKJV

Christian_lady
Jan 27th 2008, 01:58 PM
Oh I see now, you are asking if people who were once touched by the Holy Spirit and later turn their back on Christ are pardoned.

Well, that is a very tricky question and only God knows our heart. Sometimes it appears someone is athiest when they're not, and vice versa.

I keep in mind Peter and Judas' stories. Peter denied Christ 3x. Jesus even said that if we deny Him, He will deny us in front of the Father. But Peter repented and Christ forgave him. He even went on to do great things in Rome in the name of God.

Now, Judas betrayed God and assisted in His capture. He was overcome by guilt so he commited suicide. Reading Acts, we discover Judas was suppose to do great things like all the apostles. This is purely Christian Lady's opinion, but if Judas was 'suppose' to have a Godly mission then it makes me believe he too had an opportunity to be forgiven like Peter.

Now speaking personally, I became a Christian about 7-8 years ago. The first two years I read my Bible and went to Church. Overnight I did a complete 180 degrees and turned to New Age Spirituality, Buddhism and Islam. This carried on for about 3 years. I did not deny my experience but I tried relating it to my mind, the energy of the universe, not God. Slowly but surely I went back to Christ and now I feel in my heart I am not turning back on Him.

It is possible I will never be forgiven, since the wrath of God is very real. But right now all I care about is doing what God wants me to do during my time on earth.

CL

RoadWarrior
Jan 27th 2008, 05:15 PM
Oh I see now, you are asking if people who were once touched by the Holy Spirit and later turn their back on Christ are pardoned.

Well, that is a very tricky question and only God knows our heart. Sometimes it appears someone is athiest when they're not, and vice versa.

I keep in mind Peter and Judas' stories. Peter denied Christ 3x. Jesus even said that if we deny Him, He will deny us in front of the Father. But Peter repented and Christ forgave him. He even went on to do great things in Rome in the name of God.

Now, Judas betrayed God and assisted in His capture. He was overcome by guilt so he commited suicide. Reading Acts, we discover Judas was suppose to do great things like all the apostles. This is purely Christian Lady's opinion, but if Judas was 'suppose' to have a Godly mission then it makes me believe he too had an opportunity to be forgiven like Peter.

Now speaking personally, I became a Christian about 7-8 years ago. The first two years I read my Bible and went to Church. Overnight I did a complete 180 degrees and turned to New Age Spirituality, Buddhism and Islam. This carried on for about 3 years. I did not deny my experience but I tried relating it to my mind, the energy of the universe, not God. Slowly but surely I went back to Christ and now I feel in my heart I am not turning back on Him.

It is possible I will never be forgiven, since the wrath of God is very real. But right now all I care about is doing what God wants me to do during my time on earth.

CL

Hi CL,

I went through some similar "swings" in my life - grew up in the church, baptized at 13, then fell. I did not ever "deny" God in the sense that I said "He doesn't exist", but I did wonder for a long time whether He was real. I never called myself atheist, but I did call myself agnostic. I have absolutely no doubt that I am forgiven. Like Peter, it was confusion (maybe fear) that caused my doubts and unbelief. But unlike Judas, it was never an outright rejection of God.

This has been a challenging thought in my life. Although I am personally safe on the other side of the challenge, I am wondering about it today because of reading this in Jude and seeking to apply it to the lives of people calling themselves Christian. One thing that stands out to me in Jude, is that the angels are kept in chains for a future judgment. They are not already judged.

I don't know the implications of that, and as far as I know, we don't have any clarification from the Lord on the subject. It is part of the mystery. I don't want to start speculating on it. I have a brother-in-law who is a preacher, and he says some people say no so many times, the opportunity to say yes is taken away. That, I do think can be backed up by scripture.

I'm glad that you and I found our way back to saying yes, before it was too late!

p.s. Further on in Jude, we will get to the part about saving some as if from the fire, hating even the smell of the smoke ... Now that I think of that, I'm not going to give up praying for even those who seem to have rejected God outright.

Christian_lady
Jan 27th 2008, 07:08 PM
p.s. Further on in Jude, we will get to the part about saving some as if from the fire, hating even the smell of the smoke ... Now that I think of that, I'm not going to give up praying for even those who seem to have rejected God outright.

I am glad this online study has brought some kind of peace into your daily life. ;)