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ahealingman
Jan 19th 2008, 11:25 PM
Has anybody ever heard of the pregnant men prophecy? I found it on a web site and I am trying to find out if anybody has ever heard of it before?

Thanks

Nihil Obstat
Jan 19th 2008, 11:55 PM
Are you talking about Jer. 30:6...?

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 12:14 AM
Yes, Jeremiah 30:6 is it. I have never heard of this prophecy before and I was very much wondering why because I have read hundreds of end times books and nobody has ever mentioned it that I am aware of.

Actually I saw it on a web site that created an end times story that they claim is 100% biblical and I haven't found a single verse that could prove them wrong. The story they have is fascinating because it seems like it could be true, the most convincing I've ever seen. They have pages and pages to prove everything they say and it all seems to me to be biblical, in context, no unexplained verses.

The story they have seems to fit the bible perfectly, they have nothing for sale, they don't ask for donations, those things you expect from unbelievable stories. They have the timing of revelations down to a tee, I think I'm convinced these people have the real end times story.

Are we allowed to post web site names here, I'd like some opinions?

Thanks

Cyberseeker
Jan 20th 2008, 12:22 AM
Has anybody ever heard of the pregnant men prophecy? I found it on a web site and I am trying to find out if anybody has ever heard of it before?

Thanks

No, but I heard there would be 144,000 male virgins which is just about as unlikely. :saint:

daughter
Jan 20th 2008, 12:41 AM
You are allowed to post links, so long as they are appropriate. I'm interested from what you've said.

I know we're not far off having pregnant men... Scientists already brought a male ape to near term, before vivisecting him and the fetus. Why the need for this I have no idea, given half the population has a womb, and most women can get pregnant. It's just more messing with what we shouldn't mess with. I wouldn't be surprised to see that prophecy rather disgustingly and disturbingly fulfilled.

Clifton
Jan 20th 2008, 12:56 AM
Yes, Jeremiah 30:6 is it. I have never heard of this prophecy before and I was very much wondering why because I have read hundreds of end times books and nobody has ever mentioned it that I am aware of.

Actually I saw it on a web site that created an end times story that they claim is 100% biblical and I haven't found a single verse that could prove them wrong. The story they have is fascinating because it seems like it could be true, the most convincing I've ever seen. They have pages and pages to prove everything they say and it all seems to me to be biblical, in context, no unexplained verses.

The story they have seems to fit the bible perfectly, they have nothing for sale, they don't ask for donations, those things you expect from unbelievable stories. They have the timing of revelations down to a tee, I think I'm convinced these people have the real end times story.

Are we allowed to post web site names here, I'd like some opinions?

Thanks


This is interesting. I would like to visit the site. Does this occur during the reign of the Saints with Christ, or before?

Clifton
Jan 20th 2008, 01:00 AM
No, but I heard there would be 144,000 male virgins which is just about as unlikely. :saint:


True. As far as my studies have taken me, what you are referring to (in Rev. 14) is an interpolation by a celibate arch-heretic, though an unknowingly one, but better at Greek than his master, called John The Presbyter / Seer, was.

The way I have been eating the past couple of months and lack of exercise, I have begun to feel pregnant - could be a sign of the times.:D

ShirleyFord
Jan 20th 2008, 01:04 AM
Has anybody ever heard of the pregnant men prophecy? I found it on a web site and I am trying to find out if anybody has ever heard of it before?

Thanks


Yes, Jeremiah 30:6 is it. I have never heard of this prophecy before and I was very much wondering why because I have read hundreds of end times books and nobody has ever mentioned it that I am aware of.



Jeremiah is not prophecying that men will literally get pregnant. He is prophecying the future Babylonian Captivity, Jacob's trouble, and how terrible it will be for Israel:

Jeremiah 30: Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.


Very few of the Jews believed Jeremiah and severly persecuted him for his prophecy. But they all knew that Jeremiah prophecied the truth when they were captured by Babylon and remained in captivity for 70 years.


This prophecy has already been fulfilled long ago.


Shirley

daughter
Jan 20th 2008, 01:06 AM
I know, I was thinking that... just that biblical prophecy has a way of being fulfilled several times, metaphorically and literally. It's a theory anyway.

But you are right, it has been fulfilled in the past.

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2008, 01:09 AM
Jeremiah is not talking about men being pregnant. Look at the context.

Jer 30:5 "For thus says the LORD: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? ...
Obviously the answer to the question is NO!! men do not get pregnant.

...So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? The answer follows in verse seven

7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

Mark F
Jan 20th 2008, 01:11 AM
Jeremiah 30:5-7

“For thus says the LORD:

We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it."

This isn't a prophesy of a man being pregnant, this is a discription of how men will act in the great tribulation, or time of Jacob's trouble because they will be unable to bear the pain and agony they will be experiencing. In other words they will act as if they were a woman in childbirth, their internal termoil will cause physical duress.

Mark F
Jan 20th 2008, 01:15 AM
Sorry for the duplicate post quiet dove, I was a typin' and you must have a faster keyboard!

Clifton
Jan 20th 2008, 01:42 AM
Guess that means I need to exercise more.
:P

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 01:36 PM
Whether you want to believe this has been fulfilled or not, it can still have a dual purpose. There is no doubt this referred to two periods of time.

A better translation:

thus says the LORD,
'A cry of dismay we hear;
fear reigns, not peace
Inquire and see;
since when do men bear children?
Why, then, do I see all these men,
with their hands on their loins
like women in childbirth?
Why have all their faces turned
deathly pale?
How mighty is that day-
none like it!
A time of distress for Jacob,
though he shall be saved from it.'

http://www.trueheartofchrist.org

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 01:52 PM
Sorry I wasn't finished but i posted. This prophecy would easily have two fulfillments and we know pregnant men are right around the corner, all the technology there is today this could easily happen I think

http://www.trueheartofchrist.org has a story of how the end times would come about. This story is believable and sounds right but the things they say are opposite of everybody else.

The mark of the beast won't occur till the end and because its so popular people will accept the antichrist. There will be baby sacrifices with scripture to prove it and this stuff isn't taken out of context. This stuff is for real

If its not real they surely have me bulled.

They have all their proof online, I read through all of it and nothing is taken out of context, nothing seems to be wrong

This is where I saw the pregnant men prophecy but they say this prophecy was only revealed for them of something. They don't sell nothing or ask for donations so there doesn't seem to be any money angle

daughter
Jan 20th 2008, 04:02 PM
Thanks for the link... I'm checking it out now.

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2008, 05:17 PM
When I site come off like this

Today one church tells us one thing will happen, another church tells us another thing will happen and yet another has another theory. The truth is they are all wrong.

So many stories floating around, all wrong.

http://www.trueheartofchrist.org/The_End_Time_Story_1.html



Everyone is wrong but now they have it right, this is a site I would show some caution with. Just because they assume themselves to be correct does not make it so.

So thats just my two cents, be careful what you read and even more careful what you believe.

daughter
Jan 20th 2008, 05:32 PM
I'd agree with quiet dove... but I'd also commend their honesty, that they are NOT accepting money for their website.

I honestly don't think ANY of us will get it right before the end comes. Anyone who says they have the answers is probably deceived in at least something. But it's an interesting link all the same.

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 05:47 PM
Exactly, interesting to say the very least. They don't ask for money, seem to be honest and sincere and provide proof that I can't deny.

What they say "God gave us the bible so we could know... two men will never agree... it must be in its simpliest terms" . Makes perfect sense.

Every book I always read never seemed to make so much sense, theres always something I'm able to find that contridicts what they say but I can't find anything wrong with this story.

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 05:59 PM
Quiet Dove, you cannot disregard something just because the first few lines makes you think they are boasting. Look at the whole site, you don't see 'I am great, I know all things'. You see 'God is great, God knows all things'

I'm not going to sit there and waste my time, all I need is one line of their story that doesn't fit scripture and I'm out of there but everything in their proof section makes perfect sense, nothing seems to be taken out of context.

If God has given us a site that actually knows what will occur you better believe I will believe it. As much as I detest Kenny Copeland and all the TV money hungery preachers if God gave Kenny a scriptural story of the events I am going to listen, I surely would not like it, but I'm going to listen and decide for myself. I am not a moron, I can read the bible and decide for myself who has a scriptural story and who doesn't. This story makes perfect sense.

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2008, 06:43 PM
Quiet Dove, you cannot disregard something just because the first few lines makes you think they are boasting. Look at the whole site, you don't see 'I am great, I know all things'. You see 'God is great, God knows all things'

I'm not going to sit there and waste my time, all I need is one line of their story that doesn't fit scripture and I'm out of there but everything in their proof section makes perfect sense, nothing seems to be taken out of context.

If God has given us a site that actually knows what will occur you better believe I will believe it. As much as I detest Kenny Copeland and all the TV money hungery preachers if God gave Kenny a scriptural story of the events I am going to listen, I surely would not like it, but I'm going to listen and decide for myself. I am not a moron, I can read the bible and decide for myself who has a scriptural story and who doesn't. This story makes perfect sense.

If Kenny Copeland is the same as Kenneth Copeland, no I personally do not abide with him on issues. I have not searched this site from top to bottom but read enough that I disagreed with, that is not to say there wont be things there I would agree with but honestly just didnt find it a site that I desired to search that much indepth with. But again, thats my two cents worth.:)

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 07:27 PM
Jeremiah is not prophecying that men will literally get pregnant. He is prophecying the future Babylonian Captivity, Jacob's trouble, and how terrible it will be for Israel:


I agree, if it is prophecy it has a literal fulfillment but how do you justify what appears to be pregnant men with the captivity of Babylon?

But, lets say for a second that this is fulfilled with the captivity. How do you explain the letter to the exiles of chapter 29? You would have to say that this prophecy was uttered after the exile, which would make no sense at all.

Duane Morse
Jan 20th 2008, 07:34 PM
It looks like it has happened already:
http://www.malepregnancy.com/

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2008, 08:25 PM
Right now as I understand Jeremiah, I don't care how many men get pregnant I still disagree that this prophecy is a prophecy about men getting pregnant. I am kinda curious to how all the science or medicine behind it works but couldn't get to much info on the site, maybe there are more links out there somewhere.

ShirleyFord
Jan 20th 2008, 08:48 PM
I agree, if it is prophecy it has a literal fulfillment but how do you justify what appears to be pregnant men with the captivity of Babylon?

But, lets say for a second that this is fulfilled with the captivity. How do you explain the letter to the exiles of chapter 29? You would have to say that this prophecy was uttered after the exile, which would make no sense at all.

Hi AHM,

Jeremiah also prophecied to Israel before the Babylonian Captivity:

2 Chronicles 36:5 Jehoiakim was twenty and five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD his God.

6 Against him came up Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and bound him in fetters, to carry him to Babylon.

7 Nebuchadnezzar also carried of the vessels of the house of the LORD to Babylon, and put them in his temple at Babylon.

8 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and his abominations which he did, and that which was found in him, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.

9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

10 And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem.

11 Zedekiah was one and twenty years old when he began to reign, and reigned eleven years in Jerusalem.

12 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD his God, and humbled not himself before Jeremiah the prophet speaking from the mouth of the LORD.

13 And he also rebelled against king Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God: but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel.

14 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the LORD which he had hallowed in Jerusalem.

15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:

16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

17 Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.

18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.


Jeremiah wrote down all of the prophecies God gave him for Israel in the book of Jeremiah as God commanded him.

Jeremiah 30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.


And he writes in the first Chapter of Jeremiah, the very first verses:


1 The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:

2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.

3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.


As we read through the entire book of Jeremiah, we find that he didn't write it and the events that occurred in chronilogical order. For instance, in Chapter 28, he writes about a time before the Babylonian Captivity:

1 And it came to pass the same year, in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah.

We know from Chapter 1 of Jeremiah above that the Babylonian Captivity came after the eleventh year of Zedekiah's reign over Judah.

Shirley

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 08:48 PM
Right now as I understand Jeremiah, I don't care how many men get pregnant I still disagree that this prophecy is a prophecy about men getting pregnant. I am kinda curious to how all the science or medicine behind it works but couldn't get to much info on the site, maybe there are more links out there somewhere.

To me it is fulfilled prophecy, thank you very much. Next, according to Jeremiah is the restoration of Israel.

Quiet Dove, since you are fixed in your belief please let me know how you envision the end of times to come about. I have yet to see anybody fulfill scripture, justify all verses and leave nothing unaccounted, except for one web site but I'm still working on trying to poke holes in it.

Obviously you already have something that I am looking for so please let me know.

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2008, 11:09 PM
To me it is fulfilled prophecy, thank you very much. Next, according to Jeremiah is the restoration of Israel.

Quiet Dove, since you are fixed in your belief please let me know how you envision the end of times to come about. I have yet to see anybody fulfill scripture, justify all verses and leave nothing unaccounted, except for one web site but I'm still working on trying to poke holes in it.

Obviously you already have something that I am looking for so please let me know.

As far as these verses in Jeremiah I do not see them as fulfilled, if you go on down to v 8-9 it is clearer to see, for me anyway, that this has not been fulfilled. Though Jacob is not a "slave" to any nation they are still tormented by foreigners. Nor does Jacob serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jer 30:8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

Jeremiah does speak of the Babylonian captivity and make it clear that Israel would spend 70 years in captivity and be brought back but he also speaks of the times of the end. I guess the tricky part is to figure out which is which.

I do believe there is still yet a future restoration of Israel in which they will turn to Jesus Christ and He will rule from Jerusalem, unfortunately for many Israelites there is the great tribulation, the time of Jacobs trouble in between now and then.

As you have already realized there is much disagreement even just within the members here, dont let that frustrate you. Just take your time and in prayer continue to study. I didnt mean to come down to hard on the site you linked at all, it is just a protective thing that happens and I meant no harm or confusion to you only wanted to stress caution will all the different sites out there, thats all. And the thing is, and I'll use Ms. Shirley as an example, she and I will disagree on many things regarding the end times and when and how different prophesies have or will be fulfilled, but I also know from having had many conversations with Shirley, she is a very strong believer with great faith, I would never question her faith or her salvation, we just disagree on some issues about prophecy but not on the heart of salvation and Jesus Christ. So when I do not agree with the end times views of a particular web site writer that does not equate to me thinking they are a bad person or that they are not saved or that they are not sincere in their understanding and their desire to help others. It just means I disagree with their interpretation of how prophecy will come to pass. So I didn't mean to upset you. :)

If there is a certain verse or something you want my take on just let me know, I am always happy to give my opinion....(just ask anyone here, they can testify to that :lol:)

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 11:43 PM
As you have already realized there is much disagreement even just within the members here, dont let that frustrate you. Just take your time and in prayer continue to study. I didnt mean to come down to hard on the site you linked at all, it is just a protective thing that happens and I meant no harm or confusion to you only wanted to stress caution will all the different sites out there, thats all. And the thing is, and I'll use Ms. Shirley as an example, she and I will disagree on many things regarding the end times and when and how different prophesies have or will be fulfilled, but I also know from having had many conversations with Shirley, she is a very strong believer with great faith, I would never question her faith or her salvation, we just disagree on some issues about prophecy but not on the heart of salvation and Jesus Christ. So when I do not agree with the end times views of a particular web site writer that does not equate to me thinking they are a bad person or that they are not saved or that they are not sincere in their understanding and their desire to help others. It just means I disagree with their interpretation of how prophecy will come to pass. So I didn't mean to upset you.

Quiet Dove,
You err in believing that I get upset, when it comes to writing I say what I mean and I ususally mean what I say but I am very direct, I do not beat around the bush though sometimes I should to try and soften the words, but thats not me.

I am interested only in the end times and I believe God gave us the book for a reason and that reason was certainly not to sit around and argue over. As I've seen somewhere else 'God loves us, God gave us the book of Revelations, therefore He must have given us the book so that we could know what will occur, otherwise you must think he gave us the book to play jokes on us'. There must be an answer somewhere. God has always told His children what He would do beforehand. I am searching for the person He used to tell us what will occur.

This web site has a very good story, very convincing story. If you have a layout of the end times that can tie up all the loose ends like they have I would honestly like to see it, it is not something said out of being upset.

The million dollars I've spent on books over the years could have gone to my retirement. Everything I have ever read about the end times has always contradicted what I read in the bible, or somebody expects me to blindly believe what they say. But, according to my bible, the pharisees and sadducees are our example of what happens when you blindly believe, so I want the true version which is supported 100% by scripture regardless of pre-trib/post-trib/armageddon rapture/ amil/preterist/etc/etc/etc/etc/etc

I want something, anything 101% based on scripture. And I can be a little demanding sometimes in the heat of the moment when I want something. This I'm working on.

You will have to do a lot worse than that to upset me.

quiet dove
Jan 21st 2008, 12:03 AM
Quiet Dove,
I am interested only in the end times and I believe God gave us the book for a reason and that reason was certainly not to sit around and argue over. As I've seen somewhere else 'God loves us, God gave us the book of Revelations, therefore He must have given us the book so that we could know what will occur, otherwise you must think he gave us the book to play jokes on us'. There must be an answer somewhere. God has always told His children what He would do beforehand. I am searching for the person He used to tell us what will occur.

This web site has a very good story, very convincing story. If you have a layout of the end times that can tie up all the loose ends like they have I would honestly like to see it, it is not something said out of being upset.


I want something, anything 101% based on scripture. And I can be a little demanding sometimes in the heat of the moment when I want something. This I'm working on.

You will have to do a lot worse than that to upset me.

Ok, as long as your ok, glad to know you are not easily upset, that can come in handy around here. :rofl:

I would have to really go line by line through anyones layout of the end times to give an in depth opinion on agreeing or disagreeing. And I don't really know what loose ends you mean or what you consider loose ends. (Sorry if I missed that in one of your post) I guess we all have our particular end time understanding because we believe the loose ends are tied up. That does not mean, of course, we are 100% correct, it just means we are diligently seeking answers.

And I would agree, God gave us His Book so we would know.

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 12:24 AM
And I don't really know what loose ends you mean or what you consider loose ends.

Loose End - Anything that contradicts what the bible says.
As an example, Gog/Magog many people claim occurs before or during the tribulation but they totally disregard the 1000 year lockup of satan. There must be a thousand sin-free years accounted for if I am going to believe what is said.



Rev 20:7 Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to bring them together for the battle.

quiet dove
Jan 21st 2008, 01:10 AM
Loose End - Anything that contradicts what the bible says.
As an example, Gog/Magog many people claim occurs before or during the tribulation but they totally disregard the 1000 year lockup of satan. There must be a thousand sin-free years accounted for if I am going to believe what is said.


I do agree that there are the 1000 years that Satan is locked up. I also believe that Gog and Magog of Revelation happen after the 1000 years of peace.

Remember there is also a Gog and Magog in Ezekiel. But I do not believe them to be describing the same event.

We have two different descriptions in Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:9. Not to mention the verses that specifically say Satan will be chained for a thousand years then released. I am one who takes the 1000 years as a specific/definite/fixed time frame and that Satan will be unable to influence/hinder/torment/accuse man kind in any way during that time.

I understand Rev 19 to speak of Christ Second Advent, the 1000 years to be a time described in much detail in the OT of Christ reigning from Jerusalem, over the entire earth. Then a final rebellion as described in Rev 20:9.

My heart's Desire
Jan 21st 2008, 06:17 AM
I am interested only in the end times and I believe God gave us the book for a reason and that reason was certainly not to sit around and argue over. As I've seen somewhere else 'God loves us, God gave us the book of Revelations, therefore He must have given us the book so that we could know what will occur, otherwise you must think he gave us the book to play jokes on us'. There must be an answer somewhere. God has always told His children what He would do beforehand. I am searching for the person He used to tell us what will occur.

.
You know what? I agree with you here too. But when Paul taught in the book of Thessalonians, for example, people either "didn't know about how the dead would be raised with the living" or "they knew a little about it but didn't quite understand it" or "they once knew it and someone had confused them about it even back then. If it could happen then, I understand how it could happen now.
But regardless, I feel like God wrote His Word so that we would know and not be confused.
Feeling that that is so, what I don't understand is WHY IS THERE no one who is bold enough to say they understand it and it is the right way. If God intended to write it so we'd know and understand it, then why is there no one who can say that they know?
If it is truth, then why do we all seem to have a different intrepretation of "what is truth?".
These are things I still don't understand but I accept it. It bothers me, that there seems to be no one who has the truth even though God's Word is the truth. I don't know if any of that made sense and I certainly don't intend to offend anyone. But I also question like this poster does. If God gave His Word so we'd know then how come we all know differently?
I ramble, I apologise. I'm thinking out loud.

Duane Morse
Jan 21st 2008, 07:08 AM
It's because hindsight is clearer than foresight.

I think a lot of us will recognize it - when it is happening, or has happened.

"If God intended to write it so we'd know and understand it, then why ..."

Exactly - IF!

I do not think it is written so that any of us will know with a certainty...
beforehand.

After the fact however, and all those that studied for the absolute Truth of the matter - will recognize it for what it really is.
We won't panic when the true time comes, because we will have prepared ourselves for it.


Sometimes the whole picture can not be comprehended until the last piece of the puzzle is actually in place.

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 03:38 PM
I do agree that there are the 1000 years that Satan is locked up. I also believe that Gog and Magog of Revelation happen after the 1000 years of peace.[/quote}]
It sounds like you believe the same thing that web site believes

[quote]
Remember there is also a Gog and Magog in Ezekiel. But I do not believe them to be describing the same event.
Why? They sound the same.

I think I believe that web site because everything that say seems to me to be scriptural, all in context, but they stop at Christs return, they don't really say but it seems to me that believers reign with Christ, many people survive the tribulation/end times but only those that are true believers are caught up with Christ at His return.

This leaves some to continue on as always, Jesus reigning from Mount Zion/Israel with resurrected/those alive and remaining believers.

If the kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven only emcompasses Gods promised land, the rest of the world has people living as they always have but sin-free with satan bound. Then when satan is released he goes to the ends of the earth, except for the promised land, deceives all people to come against this land, plunder it. Then God Himself rises up and fulfills many other prophecies.



We have two different descriptions in Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:9. Not to mention the verses that specifically say Satan will be chained for a thousand years then released. I am one who takes the 1000 years as a specific/definite/fixed time frame and that Satan will be unable to influence/hinder/torment/accuse man kind in any way during that time.

Exactly what that web site says. Though they don't offer an opinion of a 1000 literal years or not. Basically I think they say it doesn't matter.



I understand Rev 19 to speak of Christ Second Advent, the 1000 years to be a time described in much detail in the OT of Christ reigning from Jerusalem, over the entire earth. Then a final rebellion as described in Rev 20:9.

So to me, the only difference between what you believe and what that web site seems to imply is that you say the kingdom of God will emcompass the whole earth,

As I said, they stop at Christs return, but they lead me to believe the kingdom of God is only Gods promised land, man still lives as today but with sin bound. This allows for man to still be around at the last rebellion

During that 1000 years is when the nations will come to worship God annually on Mount Zion.

So you believe the same thing they do the only difference that I see from what you said is that the kingdom of God will emcompass the entire world, so if it does how are people decieved at the last rebellion?

Do you understand what I am asking? They say man still lives as we do today just with sin bound, this explains why at the last rebellion satan can deceive man.

If Gods kingdom emcompasses the whole earth how is it possible that satan decieves all the nations to come against Israel for the final rebellion?

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 03:48 PM
"If God intended to write it so we'd know and understand it, then why ..."

Exactly - IF!



In your opinion then why did He give us the book? To sit around and watch man argue over it?

Why give us prophecy? To sit around and watch man argue over it?

If you do not understand that God wrote the book then you will never understand what it means. God wrote the book, that means prophecy is there for a reason.

God wrote the book for those fools that foolish believe in Him like a child.

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 04:11 PM
You know what? I agree with you here too. But when Paul taught in the book of Thessalonians, for example, people either "didn't know about how the dead would be raised with the living" or "they knew a little about it but didn't quite understand it" or "they once knew it and someone had confused them about it even back then. If it could happen then, I understand how it could happen now.
But regardless, I feel like God wrote His Word so that we would know and not be confused.
Exactly right. Division separates churches/people/denominations. Both Jesus and Paul said not to divide the church. Select a group of elders and discuss those things that were questionable, never ever ever divide the church.


Feeling that that is so, what I don't understand is WHY IS THERE no one who is bold enough to say they understand it and it is the right way. If God intended to write it so we'd know and understand it, then why is there no one who can say that they know?
Thats not true, this web site I've been practically begging people to prove wrong says they have the end times down and everything is scriptural that I can see.

But even so, there are too many 'intelligent' people that have Gods word all figured out in the head, which God has repeatedly warned us about.


If it is truth, then why do we all seem to have a different intrepretation of "what is truth?".
Because truth doesn't need to be interpreted. Jesus is THE WORD, the words speak for themselves.




These are things I still don't understand but I accept it. It bothers me, that there seems to be no one who has the truth even though God's Word is the truth. I don't know if any of that made sense and I certainly don't intend to offend anyone. But I also question like this poster does. If God gave His Word so we'd know then how come we all know differently?
I ramble, I apologise. I'm thinking out loud.

With the coming of Jesus Christ, God opened His word/salvation to all. Gentiles and Jews alike. But all the parables warn us of those people or are not properly dressed, who do not have any oil in their lamps. If the parable of the ten virgins is the example, with christians as the virgins then 50% Jesus will say 'I do not know you'.

I'm not going to be one of the 50%, my heart is set on truth by His words.

Duane Morse
Jan 21st 2008, 04:20 PM
In your opinion then why did He give us the book? To sit around and watch man argue over it?

Why give us prophecy? To sit around and watch man argue over it?

If you do not understand that God wrote the book then you will never understand what it means. God wrote the book, that means prophecy is there for a reason.

God wrote the book for those fools that foolish believe in Him like a child.
Perhaps to watch as foolish men argue over it, and wiser men sit back and watch for it.

I agree it is there for a reason.
Do you understand it in every way?

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 05:33 PM
I agree it is there for a reason.
Do you understand it in every way?

I will not say I understand it in every way but I would be a liar if I didn't say I understand what the words mean. Just the words, with no 'interpretation' of thier meaning.

I believe that many, many people from many, many denominations has crucified His word, adding meaning on top of meaning, interpretation on top of interpretation, in an attempt to hide the true words.

I believe the Old Testament is given to us for examples. The Pharisees and Sadducees thought they had Gods word down pat. Theologians and scholars, those that teach Gods word today and tell us what it means, have the bible down pat, just like the Pharisees and Sadducees.

The Pharisees and Sadducees took scripture and added their own 'interpretation' with the result of being very far from Gods Word. In fact Gods Word was in their midst and they missed it.

With so many signs fulfilled and the end of this age very very close, what does that say to us today? Shall we go on believing what the Pharisees/Sadducees/Theologians/Scholars tell us or do we find out for ourselves what the bible says?

Do we go on blindly believing what they say? Or do we find out for ourselves?

There is no doubt in my mind there will be an 'antichrist' and many 'christians' will follow this person and many true christians will die. We can hope there is a rapture of believers before that but the bible constantly warns of persecution of believers.

No rapture theory can ever explain Matthew 24:44 "Therefore you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

The very moment somebody tells me to expect His coming, I know they are wrong. Thats a fact because scripture does not lie.

quiet dove
Jan 21st 2008, 07:50 PM
I do agree that there are the 1000 years that Satan is locked up. I also believe that Gog and Magog of Revelation happen after the 1000 years of peace.
It sounds like you believe the same thing that web site believes

Why? They sound the same.

They do sound the same, but in the details, it seems different.
--I do not believe that there will be a burning of weapons (Ezekiel) for seven years after Rev 20:9, so that leaves out after the 1000 years for Ezekiel.
--In Ezekiel, Israel is, for the most part, living in peace; that won't be the case at the time of Rev 19's events.
--It seems in Ezekiel that not all nations will be involved in the attack, they are asking.."what are you doing", that would also leave out Rev 19's events.

These are off the top of my head and I am still pondering it all, but I just have not come to any understanding of how Ezekiels Gog and Magog event is the same as Rev 20's or even the same as Rev 19 as some do believe it is. I just have not figured it out yet basically. It just seems like a different event to me, but I am still pondering it.


I think I believe that web site because everything that say seems to me to be scriptural, all in context, but they stop at Christs return, they don't really say but it seems to me that believers reign with Christ, many people survive the tribulation/end times but only those that are true believers are caught up with Christ at His return.

This leaves some to continue on as always, Jesus reigning from Mount Zion/Israel with resurrected/those alive and remaining believers.

If the kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven only emcompasses Gods promised land, the rest of the world has people living as they always have but sin-free with satan bound. Then when satan is released he goes to the ends of the earth, except for the promised land, deceives all people to come against this land, plunder it. Then God Himself rises up and fulfills many other prophecies.
Exactly what that web site says. Though they don't offer an opinion of a 1000 literal years or not. Basically I think they say it doesn't matter.

So to me, the only difference between what you believe and what that web site seems to imply is that you say the kingdom of God will emcompass the whole earth,

As I said, they stop at Christs return, but they lead me to believe the kingdom of God is only Gods promised land, man still lives as today but with sin bound. This allows for man to still be around at the last rebellion

During that 1000 years is when the nations will come to worship God annually on Mount Zion.

So you believe the same thing they do the only difference that I see from what you said is that the kingdom of God will emcompass the entire world, so if it does how are people decieved at the last rebellion?

Do you understand what I am asking? They say man still lives as we do today just with sin bound, this explains why at the last rebellion satan can deceive man.

If Gods kingdom emcompasses the whole earth how is it possible that satan decieves all the nations to come against Israel for the final rebellion?I understand the Millennial to be a time when Christ does reign from Jerusalem and He will rule over mortal men. There are OT passages such as Zechariah 14:17. These will be mortal men (believers) who survived through the GT. The dead in Christ who are resurrected will reign with Him during this time. All saints who have been resurrected to eternal life, immortal/incorruptible will reign with Him over the earth which has mortal men repopulating it. It is the mortal men who will rebel, not all of them, but the ones who rebell will be mortal, not the immortal. The immortal/incorruptible will be just that, incorruptible and would not rebel.

I do not understand scripture to teach only one resurrection. I am pre trib and believe that those who are raptured, and those who die during the GT will be raised to immortality and reign with Christ. And those who survive as mortal men, believers, will be the ones who live on the earth as mortals during the Millennial reign of Christ. After that 1000 yrs, the Millennial reign, Satan will be turned loose and allowed to cause that final rebellion of mortal men that he can get to follow him. God squashes that and all remaining, the faithful, will be changed or resurrected, plus all the dead from all history will be raised to either life or the second death.

I am not sure I agree sin will be impossible during that time, but I would agree that Satan will not be an influence during that time. Those powers and principalities that we battle against now will not be a problem during that time. I tried to describe, in my own failing way...LOL. That the earth will be more remodeled as opposed to "New", or should I say regenerated as opposed to completely destroyed, for the Millennium, the complete destruction and New Heaven and Earth will happen after the Millennium.

All that does not mean I understand the what and where every single verse in scripture, so I am not claiming that. And a bunch of folks disagree with me here, but this ties my loose ends thus far for me.

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 09:29 PM
Okay, I got you now. I lean very very far toward your belief, so thats why I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. LOL

We differ in details, but the details are not important. I use to believe pre-trib but after prayerful and careful investigation I believe its not likely to happen because the new testament promises persecution too much.

quiet dove
Jan 21st 2008, 11:03 PM
Okay, I got you now. I lean very very far toward your belief, so thats why I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. LOL

We differ in details, but the details are not important. I use to believe pre-trib but after prayerful and careful investigation I believe its not likely to happen because the new testament promises persecution too much.

There are a lot of believers down through history that have been persecuted. And what I understand from Revelation, and verses in the OT, persecution is one thing, God's wrath upon the unjust is another. So during the GT believers will be persecuted but the unjust will have to deal with the wrath of God, of the Lamb. Satan's wrath and God's wrath both going on. Satan against believers, God against nonbelievers or worse yet, flat out rejectors. But the purpose of it is God's wrath and the repercussions of this battle will be Satan's wrath upon believers, the same repercussion of the battle that has been going on throughout history.

In other words, I believe there is a difference of the trials, tribulations, and persecutions, of believers and God's wrath, and I believe the GT is God's wrath and judgment, neither of which the believer is destined to. Unfortunately those who do come to Faith during that time will most likely die for their faith, but at the same time, praise the Lord they were given one last chance to repent and become saved.

bjones
Jan 22nd 2008, 12:08 AM
Jer 30.6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

In the symbols of shadows:

woman - deceived (Paul said the woman was deceived) or not seeing clearly
man - seeing

To illustrate this look at Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. Donkey's are always prophets. An adult female donkey leads the way signifying the old prophets preceded Christ. The donkey is female, meaning that the prophets did not see clearly.

Jesus rides on a male colt. The newest prophet was John. John saw Christ clearly, even receiving a direct answer to his question.

The whole purpose of Christ is to fulfill the Leverate law on behalf of Adam who died without a spiritually living heir. He is to beget living children for God.

The way that you know something is living, is that it is fruitful and multiplies.

So this picture merely says that in THAT day, those who see clearly will 'beget' more who see clearly. They are fruitful and multiplying. It is a parallel teaching that leaders should teach more leaders.

To confirm this picture: the gnostics had a saying that women must become men. All they were saying is that those who do not see clearly must have their eyes opened. The blind will see.

The Sihks take the saying to the next level saying that men must become virgins, merely meaning that those who see become the bride of Christ.

So, men having babies is just a picture of saved people leading others into salvation.

ahealingman
Jan 22nd 2008, 09:45 AM
There are a lot of believers down through history that have been persecuted. And what I understand from Revelation, and verses in the OT, persecution is one thing, God's wrath upon the unjust is another. So during the GT believers will be persecuted but the unjust will have to deal with the wrath of God, of the Lamb. Satan's wrath and God's wrath both going on. Satan against believers, God against nonbelievers or worse yet, flat out rejectors. But the purpose of it is God's wrath and the repercussions of this battle will be Satan's wrath upon believers, the same repercussion of the battle that has been going on throughout history.

In other words, I believe there is a difference of the trials, tribulations, and persecutions, of believers and God's wrath, and I believe the GT is God's wrath and judgment, neither of which the believer is destined to. Unfortunately those who do come to Faith during that time will most likely die for their faith, but at the same time, praise the Lord they were given one last chance to repent and become saved.
Is it not all Gods wrath? I believe I read somewhere recently, probably Daniel, thats its for the refining, purifying, etc of believers.

Isaiah 45:7 I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.

Wasn't it God that promised and brought the Babylonians against the Hebrews?

Isn't it God that raises up the foolish sherperd/antichrist?

11:16 Indeed, I am about to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not take heed to the sheep headed to slaughter, will not seek the scattered, and will not heal the injured. Moreover, he will not nourish the one that is healthy but instead will eat the meat of the fat sheep and tear off their hooves.
11:17 Woe to the worthless shepherd who abandons the flock! May a sword fall on his arm and his right eye! May his arm wither completely away, and his right eye become completely blind!"


Though there is a lot of disagreement among the experts many claim the seventh church in Revelations pertains to the current time period, which is when Jesus says because the churches are neither hot nor cold He will spew them from his mouth.

We have all become lax, laws in effect now where you can't discipline a child, over the last few decades society has become morally depraved and we all sit around and do nothing about it. "Prosperity Doctrine" being taught in many churches, which teaches only about the blessings of God. I know more "christians" that are cheating on their wives then not. Everybody, including myself, afraid to speak out about it because its not "politically correct"

Wrath is promised by God just like the blessings.

ahealingman
Jan 22nd 2008, 10:13 AM
Jer 30.6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

In the symbols of shadows:

woman - deceived (Paul said the woman was deceived) or not seeing clearly
man - seeing

To illustrate this look at Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. Donkey's are always prophets. An adult female donkey leads the way signifying the old prophets preceded Christ. The donkey is female, meaning that the prophets did not see clearly.

Jesus rides on a male colt. The newest prophet was John. John saw Christ clearly, even receiving a direct answer to his question.

The whole purpose of Christ is to fulfill the Leverate law on behalf of Adam who died without a spiritually living heir. He is to beget living children for God.

The way that you know something is living, is that it is fruitful and multiplies.

So this picture merely says that in THAT day, those who see clearly will 'beget' more who see clearly. They are fruitful and multiplying. It is a parallel teaching that leaders should teach more leaders.

To confirm this picture: the gnostics had a saying that women must become men. All they were saying is that those who do not see clearly must have their eyes opened. The blind will see.

The Sihks take the saying to the next level saying that men must become virgins, merely meaning that those who see become the bride of Christ.

So, men having babies is just a picture of saved people leading others into salvation.
I'm sure there is a lot of symbology in the bible but Jesus is the Word. To me this says the words are the only thing required so morons like me only need to read the words to understand the message. Most experts say if its prophecy it has a literal fulfillment, and this has already been proven by somebody linking to a page displaying a pregnant man, though the prophecy says 'all these men' which would imply more than one we can see its already on its way to being fulfilled so its basically moot anymore because whether or not it is prophecy or whether or not it pertains to the end times its been or in the process of being fulfilled.

Duane Morse
Jan 22nd 2008, 11:11 AM
Well, personally, I am pained (in my soul, if nothing else) to see it - the perversion that leads to a male being artificially pregnant... just to prove - WHAT point?
???

ahealingman
Jan 22nd 2008, 01:08 PM
Well, personally, I am pained (in my soul, if nothing else) to see it - the perversion that leads to a male being artificially pregnant... just to prove - WHAT point?
???
I think women are repulsed by it, my wife and daughter are but my daughter beyond measure. I kind of expected it "We can do it so lets do it". The homosexuals will glory in the idea.

You had womens lib now we have mens lib. LOL

Thats why my prayers always end with 'There is no sense in continueing this so lets just get it over with now', my version of Thy Kingdom Come

quiet dove
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:33 PM
Is it not all Gods wrath? I believe I read somewhere recently, probably Daniel, thats its for the refining, purifying, etc of believers.

Isaiah 45:7 I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.

Wasn't it God that promised and brought the Babylonians against the Hebrews?

Isn't it God that raises up the foolish sherperd/antichrist?

11:16 Indeed, I am about to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not take heed to the sheep headed to slaughter, will not seek the scattered, and will not heal the injured. Moreover, he will not nourish the one that is healthy but instead will eat the meat of the fat sheep and tear off their hooves.
11:17 Woe to the worthless shepherd who abandons the flock! May a sword fall on his arm and his right eye! May his arm wither completely away, and his right eye become completely blind!"



I beleive there is a difference in discipline and wrath, trials being allowed to refine the believer is not the same as God pouring out wrath. Also, what is not considered is when Babylon was brought against Israel, or any of the other times Israel was taken/scattered, is it was for disbelief, disobedience, worshiping false gods and so on, rebellion and rejection of truth. That is basically the same situation of those who are going to have to deal with the GT. Plus, as I have said before here, (just not to you...:)) if the GT is for the refinement of the saints, and persecution and suffereing are the only means of refining a saint, what about the many, many a good saint that died never having been persecuted? Are they not refined?

Is it not the Word of God that refines if we are simply willing to obey it, trustfully and faithfully. Day by day trusting God for our needs spiritually and physically? You do not discipline an obedient child do you? A child trying to please, though they are not perfect, is not a child who would receive you wrath are they?

ahealingman
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:48 AM
if the GT is for the refinement of the saints, and persecution and suffereing are the only means of refining a saint, what about the many, many a good saint that died never having been persecuted? Are they not refined?

Is it not the Word of God that refines if we are simply willing to obey it, trustfully and faithfully. Day by day trusting God for our needs spiritually and physically? You do not discipline an obedient child do you? A child trying to please, though they are not perfect, is not a child who would receive you wrath are they?

I think you have a view from your own perspective, this is what you do, you are an average believer, therefore this is what an average believer does. You are doing your part, but you are assuming the rest of us are doing our part.

There is not a single word in the bible that Jesus spoke to a non-believer, the bible is not for non-believers. The 10 virgin parable where He says to 50% of christians, "I don't know you". The last church in Revelations where He says "I will spew you from my mouth". These words are spoken to the churches and the people that make up those churches.

It is my opinion that the "churches", not any one in particular, is responsible for the moral decay of society. God gives the church the responsibility for seeing His word is in the hearts and minds of men. For 50-100 years they are done nothing to stop the decay, now their footprint is too small to do anything

Jesus never talked about governments, when He said 'a kingdom divided cannot stand' He was talking about the church. 100 years ago the church was important, 1000 years ago life centered around the church. America was setup by deeply religious people. We now have many different denominations spreading different messages so the one important message is weakened, now to the point it has no effect.

Moral behavior studies show there is no difference in the divorce rate from church membership to secular society, they show no moral differences in anything so this means the church has no impact on the lives of people. Those that are true will be true regardless of the church those that are not true are not true even though they go to church. So obviously the churches message isn't working.

When I was a kid they taught 'you better repent' but now no church will ever have a sermon that doesn't teach God loves you because in the 60's-70's a preacher somewhere found out when he taught God loves you more people went to the church the next week, so churches altered the sermons to tell people what they wanted to hear instead of sticking with the message Jesus said.

Maybe "wrath" against believers is the wrong word because the wrath does go against non-believers but believers suffer terrible persecution because its only during hard times people draw closer to God. A rich man doesn't need God a poor man hopes on God, I read somewhere.

In my view I see many people go to church for no reason, the message has no impact. I see many hypocrites, in fact it is a terrible thing but I cringe when somebody asks 'are you christian?' because I don't want to get lumped in with that group. I always say yes but I would rather so no I am a believer, or I am a follower of Christ, or anything other then "christian".

Many churches have 80-90% turnover. Those teaching prosperity doctrine pack the pews every week but nobody tells these people the blessings taught are all taken from the old testament, in the new God promises only food, clothing and persecution.

If you think about it the pharisees and sadducees of Jesus day is the "church" of today. Many of the epistles warn about people getting into the church to teach false doctrine and create division. It was bound to happen but all the warnings are there and if we go through history we can probably narrow the divisions down to just a few people but the damage is far done and way beyond repair.

But regardless of all this everythings already foretold, man is the way he is and God knew that a long time ago. Individuals that are doing the right thing I am sure He doesn't persecute as much as others. But still, sin still reigns even in believers and the wages of sin is death. Nobody, including believers can say they don't sin. Jesus made it plain that sin starts with our thoughts. One sin and the penalty is death and we all have far more than one sin, a little persecution instead of eternal death isn't a bad deal.

quiet dove
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:55 PM
I think you have a view from your own perspective, this is what you do, you are an average believer, therefore this is what an average believer does. You are doing your part, but you are assuming the rest of us are doing our part.

"an average beleiver" not sure exactly what that is? And as far a assuming about others here, yes, I do give them 'the benefit of the doubt' as the saying goes. I do presume them to be as sincere and diligent in their study of the Word as I am. And if not putting myself above them and presuming more about myself and less about them makes me an "average believer" then I guess thats what I am.



There is not a single word in the bible that Jesus spoke to a non-believer, the bible is not for non-believers. The 10 virgin parable where He says to 50% of christians, "I don't know you". The last church in Revelations where He says "I will spew you from my mouth". These words are spoken to the churches and the people that make up those churches.Every person ever born was a non believer when Jesus died for them. Every person ever born was a non believer when Jesus began His ministry and began talking, choosing His disciples, healing, teaching. All that He did He began doing before anyone ever got saved.

I believe the scriptures were given to convince men of the true God, and their need of Him and how to once again be reunited with Him through Jesus Christ. The entire Bible leading back to the Son, the Savior. The One promised that would take away their sin, the One who came to redeem men.

Now I would agree the way to grasp further and deeper understanding of the teaching of God would be in total dependence on the Holy Spirit, it all begins with the Spirit's conviction of the sinner and once the sinner believes and accepts Christ that believer can then be led into the deeper teaching of the Bible which it, of course, was designed by God to be.

If I must give up what I understand to be truth in order to have unity, then unity becomes worthless. Unity is certainly strength, believers are a strength to each other and together they are stronger. There are many end time views just here in ETC, but we still have unity in Christ. Many here I disagree with on different issues, but each of them I respect as a brother/sister in Christ, I respect their faith and their strength to stand for the One they trust.

Unity for the sake of unity is not what refines the believers hearts. Total dependence of God is what refines. Searching the scriptures, prayer, and desiring with our whole being are what refine. Faith in all situations, refines. This is something a believer should be living everyday, not just during times of tribulation, if dependence on God and some refinement isnt going on prior to the tribulation the believer stands a greater chance of falling flat on their face during the difficulty they must face, whether it be the GT or everyday life. Everyday life for some if more difficult than many could endure.

So again I will say, I disagree that the great tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble is for refinement of believers. It may refine a great many of them, but, IMHO, that is not why there is to be a GT.

David Taylor
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:45 PM
So again I will say, I disagree that the great tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble is for refinement of believers. It may refine a great many of them, but, IMHO, that is not why there is to be a GT.



Christians are either refined and redeemed through the shed blood of Christ, or they are lost and damned in their sins.

The events of the world going on around us, regardless of how severe; could never refine us....Jesus alone, is our refiner's fire and our fuller's soap.


Any persecution or tribulation a Christian faces, is not to refine them, but to stand as a testimony to those who witness it; to turn hearts unto repentance and to give glory to Christ.

I Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

p.s.
Jacob's Trouble, according to the context given ;)by Jeremiah;) in Jeremiah 29-31, is the time of the Babylonian captivity and return from 70 year exile in 572 B.C....and has no connection to future events; and is that is why "Jacob's Trouble" is never mentioned in the New Testament..(because it had already happened many centuries prior.)

quiet dove
Jan 23rd 2008, 09:48 PM
Christians are either refined and redeemed through the shed blood of Christ, or they are lost and damned in their sins.

The events of the world going on around us, regardless of how severe; could never refine us....Jesus alone, is our refiner's fire and our fuller's soap.


Any persecution or tribulation a Christian faces, is not to refine them, but to stand as a testimony to those who witness it; to turn hearts unto repentance and to give glory to Christ.

I Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf." I agree so I apparently did not make my point very well. Let me try it again. :)

This would be the focus of my thought on refinement of the believer from my previous post. I won't get into Jacob's trouble right now...:P

Total dependence of God is what refines. Searching the scriptures, prayer, and desiring with our whole being are what refine. Faith in all situations, refines.

I disagree that the great tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble is for refinement of believers. It may refine a great many of them, but, IMHO, that is not why there is to be a GT.


My understanding is that the reason for the GT is not to refine believers. Believers should be refined through the study of the Word, prayer, daily striving to walk in the Spirit, daily searching themselves and being submissive to Christ and the Spirits searching of them.

I mean certainly trials can be used to bring us to our knees and realizing we are but finite mortal beings but that is more of an attention getter than refining.

I do think that because of how bad the tribulation will be those who come to know Christ during that time will get a crash course in learning to trust Christ in all situations. And most of them will be killed in the process. But I also think that refinement and faith do not have to be the same thing though certainly messed together within the believer. I mean a brand new believer who really understands little beyond being saved could certainly have the faith to die for their Savior. Which is another thing to think about, those who have had the opportunity for many years of refinement could be held accountable for not having put Christ first and being refined by Him.

Hopefully that came out better and if not or you find it in error I'll be back shortly. Gotta go for a bit. :)

ahealingman
Jan 24th 2008, 12:56 AM
"an average beleiver"

Quiet Dove, You took everything I said wrong. Remember I am direct and to the point. I am not saying you. I am not saying anybody here. I am not saying anybody in particular. I don't spend 15 minutes beating around the bush but I will never critisize nor talk about anybody.

That first paragraph only said from your perspective you see only good, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, I wish I could see people that way.

Let me try to explain it this way. God told Abraham He would not destroy Sodom for the sake of 10 righteous souls. He did not find 10 righteous souls. Though there were more, assume there were 1000 people there. He would have spared the entire city for the sake of one-tenth of one percent.

If we go a few thousand years forward to today God would not start the GT, wrath, persecution, etc for the sake of the one-tenth of one percent.

Just because there are 30 million "christians" in the united states does not mean there are 30 million saved believers in the united states. By Jesus's words that 30 million is 15 million.

Half of the epistles warn about false teachings, people will come in sheeps clothing but are ravenous wolves. We are far past that now, the "one church" started by the apostles has been split so many times the message is no longer, nor has been for any time, a unified message.

Jesus said long ago you cannot stand if you divide, we stated dividing long ago and now that 15 million is divided among 15 different denominations with none able to stand and fight for prayer in schools, etc.

Today churches are fighting to stay afloat, the only ones swimming smoothly along are those teaching prosperity doctrine which is a doctrine designed specifically to only tell people what they want to hear so they will keep coming back. Its a good doctrine to make money but "the beginning of knowledge is fear of the Lord" teaching only the blessings builds no moral character as shown by all the moral character studies among church memberships.

The new testament says Jesus suffered and died for us, if you are not willing to suffer and die for Him you are not worthy of Him. The new testament promises believers food, clothing and persecution which is a little different then what is taught in Gods blessings today. The new testament says if you love this world you hate God.

But look at the catholic church, they've been doing things wrong forever. Jesus said pray to God only, they say pray to the saints. The bible says marry, don't burn. The church says priests shouldn't marry and even though child molestion among priests has been a problem for many years they still don't allow priests to marry.

What I am saying is what the churches teach doesn't help increase the numbers.

Even though I would imagine that most people that go to a board to discuss ideas with others and to learn more there are still some that do not have the salvation they believe they have. I know this by Jesus's words, "I will say I do not know you".

As an example, check out the very first "christian" web site I ever visited on the internet truechristian.com. Here is a web site owner claiming to have 35 years of bible reading experience under his belt but critisizes every person, including other christians because they don't believe what he believes, for what they believe. But our example, Jesus Christ, never critisized a living soul. With 35 years of "experience" I read somewhere on the site that UFO's exist because God did not create man perfectly so He had to create an improved version on another planet. 35 years of bible reading obviously hasn't had any effect on this person. This is a person that calls himself a christian but obviously for 35 years the words have not had any effect. Though I can only judge by his actions it would be my guess that his salvation is questionable but yet if I were to tell him he would not believe because he knows the bible.

This person believes he has salvation, which only he and God can know for sure, but based on his actions I know I would never believe a single word he says.

If God starts the tribulation, which we all know will be very soon, it means there are at least less than 10 out of 1000 righteous people. Maybe right now there are 11 out of every 1000 but as soon as a few of them die then the number gets to be too low and the GT starts. The new testament promises persecution of believers, I can't change it just because I don't like it and many "christians" deserve it, but we all deserve it because the wages of sin is death and we are all sinners.

quiet dove
Jan 24th 2008, 01:31 AM
If God starts the tribulation, which we all know will be very soon, it means there are at least less than 10 out of 1000 righteous people. Maybe right now there are 11 out of every 1000 but as soon as a few of them die then the number gets to be too low and the GT starts. The new testament promises persecution of believers, I can't change it just because I don't like it and many "christians" deserve it, but we all deserve it because the wages of sin is death and we are all sinners.

I was not offended or anything, I just was unclear what you were trying to say. I think I have a better understanding now. And I do see what your point is with the numbers and percentages, I respectfully disagree, but I do understand what you are trying to say.

And with your comparison of numbers/percentages, consider that Lot was removed from the destruction before it happened.

My heart's Desire
Jan 24th 2008, 05:39 AM
I can't change it just because I don't like it and many "christians" deserve it, but we all deserve it because the wages of sin is death and we are all sinners. This is what I don't agree with. What did Jesus do for us on the Cross? Sin does pay to Sinners the wage of death, and we do deserve that as Sinners, but for all those who accept the payment for our Sin on the Cross that Jesus paid, we no longer have to pay the wages of sin which is death. Jesus did that for us. We are no longer under condemnation.

ahealingman
Jan 24th 2008, 03:10 PM
And with your comparison of numbers/percentages, consider that Lot was removed from the destruction before it happened.


Yes but we could argue delivered from/raptured from. But I hope you are right because I surely don't want persecution and I truly believe it is coming very soon.

ahealingman
Jan 24th 2008, 03:42 PM
This is what I don't agree with. What did Jesus do for us on the Cross? Sin does pay to Sinners the wage of death, and we do deserve that as Sinners, but for all those who accept the payment for our Sin on the Cross that Jesus paid, we no longer have to pay the wages of sin which is death. Jesus did that for us. We are no longer under condemnation.

You are right we are no longer under condemnation but if somebody puffs themselves up and says "I don't deserve death for my sin" they become like the Pharisees and Sadducees who said "I don't deserve death because I am the seed of Abraham".

When you say "I don't deserve death because I am the seed of Christ" while at the same time Jesus is saying "I promise you I will say I do not know you". Does this not scare you to death?

John the Baptist told the Jews/Pharisees/Sadducees - Show proof - God can raise up children of Abraham from these stones.

God can also raise up children of Christ from stones - Do not try to think God cannot because He most certainly can.

Regardless of what actually happens if somebody believes "I don't deserve death for my sins" they call God a liar because He says they do.

Jesus talks about hearers and doers of His word.
A hearer will say "I don't deserve death because of Christ".
A doer will say "I deserve death but I won't get death through Christ".

Jesus warns constantly about 'hearers only' and these are some of the ones he'll say "I don't know you"."But Lord didn't I cast out demons in your name, didn't I prophecy in your name, didn't I do all these things in your name?"

quiet dove
Jan 24th 2008, 05:32 PM
Yes but we could argue delivered from/raptured from. But I hope you are right because I surely don't want persecution and I truly believe it is coming very soon.

Rapture or no rapture, persecution can come, and as we know, does/is to so many as we speak.

My heart's Desire
Jan 24th 2008, 07:23 PM
Jesus warns constantly about 'hearers only' and these are some of the ones he'll say "I don't know you"."But Lord didn't I cast out demons in your name, didn't I prophecy in your name, didn't I do all these things in your name?"Ah yes, and these heard and try to do it in the name of works, Their works. They weren't relying on the work God required of them, which was to believe in the work of Jesus. They had a work based religion.

My heart's Desire
Jan 24th 2008, 07:36 PM
. The new testament promises persecution of believers,.
Oh, after saying what I have I didn't want you to think that I don't think this is true. I know it is true. Persecution was, is, and will be the lot of the Christian. But the persecution will be because of their faith, who they belong to and their witness.

I'm almost sure those who try to stand on a street corner for any length of time with a Bible or outside of any public place to preach the Word, would agree.

quiet dove
Jan 24th 2008, 07:40 PM
Oh, after saying what I have I didn't want you to think that I don't think this is true. I know it is true. Persecution was, is, and will be the lot of the Christian. But the persecution will be because of their faith, who they belong to and their witness.

I'm almost sure those who try to stand on a street corner for any length of time with a Bible or outside of any public place to preach the Word, would agree.

(and ahealingman :))
There is probably a lot of non violent persecution going on that we just do not here about on the news too, do you guys think there is? Like people getting arrested or charged for preaching?

My heart's Desire
Jan 24th 2008, 07:51 PM
Jeremiah is not talking about men being pregnant. Look at the context.

Jer 30:5 "For thus says the LORD: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? ...
Obviously the answer to the question is NO!! men do not get pregnant.

...So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? The answer follows in verse seven

7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.






I got off topic. Sorry. This is what I believe also. Yet, it's odd to me that Scripture uses a man acting as if preqnant, because you'd think using a woman would get the same message across unless the passage wants to portray an unusual-ness about the trouble, for woman would be familiar to the pains of child-birth, not a man.

quiet dove
Jan 24th 2008, 10:54 PM
I got off topic. Sorry. This is what I believe also. Yet, it's odd to me that Scripture uses a man acting as if preqnant, because you'd think using a woman would get the same message across unless the passage wants to portray an unusual-ness about the trouble, for woman would be familiar to the pains of child-birth, not a man.

This description is also used in Isaiah and seems to me to be the same type conditions going on in the world.

Isa 13:8 They will be dismayed: pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame.

ahealingman
Jan 25th 2008, 01:59 PM
I'm almost sure those who try to stand on a street corner for any length of time with a Bible or outside of any public place to preach the Word, would agree.

True but this is a different kind of persecution I am talking about. The kind I am referring to is the AC arises, and all of the "spiritual" people of the united states follows him. Then a believer says "hey guys this is the AC" and because he says that they beat the heck out of him "doing gods work", the ambulance driver hears why so he won't take him to the hospital "doing gods work", the doctors hear why so they won't treat him "doing gods work".

ahealingman
Jan 25th 2008, 03:34 PM
(and ahealingman :))
There is probably a lot of non violent persecution going on that we just do not here about on the news too, do you guys think there is? Like people getting arrested or charged for preaching?

Most countries definitely but I don't think too much in the US but then its not big news in the US, only when something happens to muslims, buddhist, atheist, etc does it ever make the news. (Isn't that strange how that works)

I know there are always some people fighting for one thing or another, children are persecuted in schools for their beliefs but I blame the parents for this, they can always surround their child with believers by sending them to catholic schools. What they preach may not be right but religion isn't the mainstay of their school system and the child isn't singled out based on belief. Children are smart so you can easily teach them some people practice religion in a different way. When you put a child in a place where 98% are non-believers and 1% believe but will stay out of the battle, a child doesn't have a chance.

I don't know if they ever passed that hate crimes stuff or not but I can see where it can be used against preachers easily enough and it sets us up for end times persecution, I think the whole world is moving in that direction. I'm hoping I'm dead and gone when things start but my heart tells me I'll be here

In my 45 years I've seen a huge decline in moral values. When I was a kid my father had no problems with discipline. Wait, I think I'm 46. But now parents are afraid to discipline a child. I was in the grocery store and a women was there with a child wailing and wailing because she said he couldn't have something. In reality she is being persecuted by a child, in a system that persecutes people that disciple their children.

I don't remember much of the details but I remember when I was a kid, the cops brought my brother home or they came to our house and my father had no problem slapping (I think) disciplining my brother in front of the cop. The cop had no problem with it at all. Now thats not possible. But back then most people still went to church and knew if you spared the rod you'd spoil the child.

I figured it out, I'm 45. So in 40 or so years we went from it being socially acceptable to believe and attend church to now where people are persecuted because they believe, to a future date where it becomes socially acceptable to openly persecute believers. Its slowly building to that point, actually 40 years isn't slowly.

Persecution is the direction we are headed, just like sin, it all starts small and builds.

ahealingman
Jan 25th 2008, 03:56 PM
I got off topic. Sorry. This is what I believe also. Yet, it's odd to me that Scripture uses a man acting as if preqnant, because you'd think using a woman would get the same message across unless the passage wants to portray an unusual-ness about the trouble, for woman would be familiar to the pains of child-birth, not a man.
If you start talking about starvation in Africa and end discussing the stock market doesn't necessarily mean you ever went off topic.

And now I really want to go off topic and into another thread and ask why would a thread discussion be closed when the rule says you are not allowed to set a specific date to a second coming or rapture. It seems to be a lame rule but I can live with it however the 'rule' was not broken. What the Mayans may have believed has nothing at all to do with the second coming of Jesus or the rapture which is what this rule specifically states.

In fact the question was more scientific then date and even if we want to stretch the imagination and say the question was about the date then the question was asking for a season (what 5 or 10 years for this to happen) and according to this rule, seasons are permitted.

Quiet Dove, I know I saw your name in a list of moderators somewhere so maybe you can shed some light on this for me. Is somebody just flexing their muscles, or maybe they possibly linked to the wrong rule and there is some rule that says you are not allowed to say what date the Mayans think is doomsday? I'm new so I don't know all the 'rules' yet but I've been known to stretch the rules to the limit, however, I don't believe I even came close to this rule. Rules are rules and I do live with them but its a bit harder to understand the rules when they change as you go.

quiet dove
Jan 25th 2008, 06:25 PM
ahealingman,

Short story, off topic, but short.

I was in a grocery store one time, amazing what you see there. Two children misbehaving..But a young mothers child was misbehaving, climbing on the case in a meat dept type case, and slipped to bump his chin, and she ran over, "are you ok honey oh poor thing" just babied him. Then only a few moments later another child, misbehaving in a cart slipped and almost fell, and the older generation grandparent said "I told you to sit down!"
:hmm:

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2008, 06:33 PM
True but this is a different kind of persecution I am talking about. The kind I am referring to is the AC arises, and all of the "spiritual" people of the united states follows him. Then a believer says "hey guys this is the AC" and because he says that they beat the heck out of him "doing gods work", the ambulance driver hears why so he won't take him to the hospital "doing gods work", the doctors hear why so they won't treat him "doing gods work".
All persecution is the same if it is because of one's association in Christ.

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2008, 06:39 PM
ahealingman,

Short story, off topic, but short.

I was in a grocery store one time, amazing what you see there. Two children misbehaving..But a young mothers child was misbehaving, climbing on the case in a meat dept type case, and slipped to bump his chin, and she ran over, "are you ok honey oh poor thing" just babied him. Then only a few moments later another child, misbehaving in a cart slipped and almost fell, and the older generation grandparent said "I told you to sit down!"
:hmm:
Yes, and I may be mistaken but if the child is rowdy and even if it is an accident the store sometimes gets sued! Somehow it becomes their fault!