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Kahtar
Jan 20th 2008, 08:42 PM
Revelation 17:9-11 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I am curious about the various interpretations of what kingdoms these seven heads represent.
I would like to hear the interpretation from the various eschatological 'camps'.

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 09:09 PM
The seven heads are seven kings whose kingdom has already come and gone (the first six), you would have to look up history because my mind is too old to remember. The seventh and eightth are the same king, the seventh rules for a short time but dies, the eighth is the same king though he has been brought back to life somehow.

The kingdoms are the 10 horns, this is more likely what you are referring to though I venture no guess as to who they happen to be.

Kahtar
Jan 20th 2008, 09:13 PM
The seven heads are seven kings whose kingdom has already come and gone (the first six), you would have to look up history because my mind is too old to remember. The seventh and eightth are the same king, the seventh rules for a short time but dies, the eighth is the same king though he has been brought back to life somehow.

The kingdoms are the 10 horns, this is more likely what you are referring to though I venture no guess as to who they happen to be.Thank you.
What I am actually after is the names of the seven kingdoms, ie 'Greek Empire', 'Roman Empire", etc. I am not concerned with the ten horns in this thread.

jeffweeder
Jan 20th 2008, 09:29 PM
Most believe that they are;
Egypt
Assyria
Babylon
Persia
Greece

5 have fallen and 1 is

Rome

From there we look for another power that ruled the world.
Papal Rome perhaps?
All these powers Had an impact on Gods people.

danield
Jan 20th 2008, 10:31 PM
I know I am not speaking from an eschatological camp other than my own, but I believe that the seven kings talked about in Rev 17 are our presidents. I Just do not see kingdoms being stretched out over 1000's of years, but more confined to a generation being able to see it unfold.

Also notice this line and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth. This could be talking about a sudden death in that term and a VP coming in to finish out his Seventh term, but that VP being the 8th king to rule in that 7th term or 7 different elected presidents.

ahealingman
Jan 20th 2008, 11:18 PM
Thank you.
What I am actually after is the names of the seven kingdoms, ie 'Greek Empire', 'Roman Empire", etc. I am not concerned with the ten horns in this thread.

I don't believe you understood what I said, its not possible for the seven heads to be seven kingdoms unless you can explain how a kingdom can go to destruction. As far as I know only people/humans go to destruction according to my bible. The beast, being the eighth king and one of the seven, goes to destruction. Unless God changes and starts throwing entire kingdoms into the lake of sulphur this would have to be a person.

Kahtar
Jan 20th 2008, 11:41 PM
Okay, I think I understand now.:)

markedward
Jan 21st 2008, 06:40 AM
Revelation 17:9-11 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I am curious about the various interpretations of what kingdoms these seven heads represent.
I would like to hear the interpretation from the various eschatological 'camps'.When we read history about the British kingdom, and we see multiple kings, we know enough that they didn't all rule at the same time, but consecutively. In my reading, the most coherent reading of this passage is that there have been, up to this point, five kings who served, a sixth one currently in power, and a seventh one to come. Following that, there would be "an eighth" king.

And, since you asked for specific "camps" of interpretation, I'll get more specific and expand a bit: Julius Caesar (1), Augustus (2), Tiberius (3), Caligula (4), Claudius (5), Nero (6). John is told that the seven heads represent both seven hills and seven kings. History calls Rome the "city of the seven hills." The Bible repeatedly refers to Jerusalem as a "prostitute." So I see this as an apostate Jerusalem as riding along with the beast, Rome. John sees that the prostitute rides on the beast, and she is drunk with the blood of the saints, but the prostitute would eventually be destroyed by the beast.

(As I Preterist) I see this as apostate Jerusalem allying herself with the Roman Empire to persecute the Christians during the first century. I believe the Revelation was written during the time of Emperor Nero's reign hence, Nero being the sixth ruler of Rome, the "one [who] is" (and I believe he corresponds to 666/616 back in chapter 13). Then, in the future (in relation to the sixth king's time), during the rule of the "eighth king," the prostitute is destroyed by the eighth king/the beast. Again, I believe this goes back to the first century; the Jews went on to revolt against the Romans, and they in turn destroyed Jerusalem and the temple a mere 40 years after Jesus did His ministry (read: Luke 21:20, 21:5-6, 21:32).

ross3421
Jan 21st 2008, 09:15 AM
I don't believe you understood what I said, its not possible for the seven heads to be seven kingdoms unless you can explain how a kingdom can go to destruction. As far as I know only people/humans go to destruction according to my bible. The beast, being the eighth king and one of the seven, goes to destruction. Unless God changes and starts throwing entire kingdoms into the lake of sulphur this would have to be a person.

You are correct, 7 heads are kings NOT kingdoms. I see the 7 heads part of the four beasts which are kings of kingdoms. The 7 heads are kings but not of a kingdom as I would say are more like leaders, princes.

Who are these "seven"?.

Alright what other "seven's" are there in Revelation? In God's kingdom we see 7 churches with 7 angels whom are in charge over them. Is it possible that the 7 kings are in charge over those in Satan's kingdom which have received the mark and our part of his church? I think so.

Mark

Cyberseeker
Jan 21st 2008, 09:33 AM
I am curious about the various interpretations of what kingdoms these seven heads represent.
I would like to hear the interpretation from the various eschatological 'camps'.


Hi Kahtar,

Revelation's seven empires needs to be read in conjunction with Daniel's five empires. Its the same list but Revelation starts earlier in history.

Also Daniel includes a temporary period following the break up of Rome into ten smaller nations. This occured in AD476 until the Islamic Empire invaded much of the former Roman territories. (AD622)

Here is my seven:

Egypt,
Assyria,
Babylon,
Medo-Persia,
Greece,
Rome,
Islamic Empire,The 8th is the final world empire which I believe will be European/Islamic in nature.

Cyber

Kahtar
Jan 21st 2008, 02:27 PM
Several ideas have been presented. Anyone have anything different?
Danield, do you have an idea of which presidents those would be?
Markdeward, you listed six. Any idea who the seventh and eighth were?
So far, we have:

...Roman Rulers .Kingdoms .............Kings of Blasphemy.......presidents ...............Rulers of Antichrist 'church'

1 Julias Caesar ...Egyptian................Nebuchadnezzar II...........?............?

2 Augustus .........Syrian...................Antiochus of Epiphanes.....?.............?
3 Tiberius ...........Babylonian............Antiochus Eupator............?............?
4 Caligula ...........Medo/Persian.......Crassus...........................?. ...........?

5 Claudius.......... Greek...................Titus..................... .........?............?
6 Nero ...............Roman..................Domitian.... ......................?...........?
7 Vespasian........Papal Rome/
...........................Islamic Empire.......Hadrian...........................?.. .........?
8 Titus.................European/Islamic.....Nebbie II.........................................?...... ........?

danield
Jan 21st 2008, 08:04 PM
Danield, do you have an idea of which presidents those would be?
I would truly hate to say because we don’t know for sure, but we could understand some general things that we have found in our time and throughout history and how it correlates to scripture. First of all it talks about the harlot riding the beast. In my minds eye I can picture a relationship of two groups of people intertwined in a unique relationship. It is obvious that the harlot is an economic might for everyone throughout the world. And the one thing that we need more than ever is oil to drive our economic might. The Middle East is rich in oil of course and we import a considerable amount of their production. In turn we deploy our military over there to bring stability for the region. Again notice how the Harlot rides the beast, and a beast in nature has to be tamed in order to ride it. I could only speculate as to when this unique relationship has started but it is in place now for sure. I think a better clue that will solidify which presidents those would be would have to come from this key passage in scripture.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, KJV [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
NLT Five kings have already fallen, the sixth now reigns, and the seventh is yet to come, but his reign will be brief. “The scarlet beast that was, but is no longer, is the eighth king. He is like the other seven, and he, too, is headed for destruction.

If we take this translation, I think we will see a president in term fall or is not reelected for his second term. And either a VP takes office because it is vacated or is elected in that next 4 year term, and it will be that term that the perdition takes place. Instead of me guessing, I think when you see that happen, we need to take notice.However I do want to talk a bit about the other ideas that are in this thread because I really would love to come around to those train of thoughts. A few questions I have are when Christ made this statement
“Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.


How can we interpret revelation’s major events not happening within one generation? This should be so clear because Christ mentioned it vividly.
Also For those that believe that Rome is the 7th beast, I am not sure I follow. You see even though Rome sits on 7 hills the Vatican does not. And neither are world powers and neither of them do not corrupt the world of immorality nor have they ever. So we have four really gaping holes in Prophesy just right there. Also I do not see an economic relationship between the Vatican and Jerusalem, and how many shiploads of cargo does the Vatican ship to Jerusalem or visa versa each year. Somehow, I just do not think that route would even pay the interest on the purchase of one contianer ship. Also, if we think that things happened back in Nero’s days, how are we going to interpret the scriptures that point to the complete devastation of the world during the tribulation? The Romans in all their might could only conquer a section of the world but they could not destroy the world as man can today. There was no Devastation that took place. Nero only killed a few Christian but not the entire world. Note this scripture when thinking of this.
In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person (note he says persons not just Christians) will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.

Also Christ did not return to rule over the Romans for 1000 years. We do not see the emergance of two witness that is stated clearly in Revlation 11. There are so many holes in those interpretations that I just can’t understand why it is supported unless I am missing something very major. I personally hold true that when Christ returns there is not going to be any mistake of who is King of Kings or of what just took place. And I also believe that the world will be stressed so hard that everyone will learn a valuable lesson (the hard way) that Christ is king. Please convert me to being a Preterist! :(

markedward
Jan 22nd 2008, 08:38 AM
Markdeward, you listed six. Any idea who the seventh and eighth were?I see possiblities for who the seventh and eighth were...

Possibility A
The seventh could have been one of the three short-lived emperors following Nero. Galba, Otho and Vitellius all died in 69 AD (the Year of the Four Emperors). Galba is most-often cited, as he was the one to immediately follow Nero, but of the three he had the second-longest reign, and couldn't justly be considered as the one who would as "he must remain a short while." The third of these, Vitellius, had a rule slightly longer than Galba's, so he wouldn't make sense either. Otho, on the other hand, was the only of the three actually appointed as emperor by the senate, and had the shorted rule, so he would make the most logical choice of "he must remain a short while."

So following Nero we could ignore Galba and Vitellius since they never were actually appointed as emperors according to the laws. So Nero, Otho, then Vespasian as the eighth, who was reigning emperor during the time of Jerusalem's destruction. This could be considered likely if we take into account Daniel 7. Daniel says that there would be ten horns (ten kings) of the fourth beast (Rome fourth empire to rule over the Jews since their loss of independence to the Babylonians). Daniel then tells of an eleventh "little horn" coming up from among the ten, "humbling" three of the ten previous horns. This could correspond to the three emperors (Galba, Otho, Vitellius) being killed all in a single year's time, followed by Vespasian as the "eleventh" horn, but that would require adding in an additional ruler into the list of the first ten in order to make Vespasian number eleven.

Possibility B
Another possibility is this. If we keep in mind Daniel 7, then Julius Caesar on through Vespasian would make ten rulers of Rome. If we take into account that three of the first ten rulers are "removed" from the list in Daniel 7, then that would make Vespasian ruler number 7 in Revelation 17, making his son Titus as number 8. Titus was the commanding officer of the armies that would destroy Jerusalem, and would go on to become emperor following Vespasian. One apparent problem with this intepretation is that Vespasian was not "he must remain a short while." However, one possible interpretation of that video is an emphasis on the "must remain" part, which would imply that the seventh king would live longer than most people would think. To support that, the Greek wording for "short while" is actually used elsewhere in Scripture to refer to larger numberings (Acts 15:2 "great dissension," Acts 17:4 "great multitude," Acts 26:29 "short or long time," 1 Peter 1:6 "greatly rejoice," Revelation 12:12 "great wrath").

If we skip Galba, Otho and Vitellius altogether (these three emperors each died within a single year’s time of each other and never had any real over the Jews as the previous emperors and following emperors did), then Vespasian would be called this seventh king. And he surely did last longer than a number of people thought. Then following him would, of course, be Titus, who was responsible for the actual destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (i.e., apostate Israel, i.e., the Babylon the prostitute). This could also be supported depending on how one interprets the original Greek form of "he [the eighth] is of the seven." It could alternately be translated to English as "he [the eighth] is of the seventh," which could specifically mean that Titus, the "eighth" ruler (again, ignoring the three rulers that were "humbled") was the son of Vespasian, who was the "seventh" ruler.

So in my opinion:

1 - Julius Caesar
2 - Augustus
3 - Tiberius
4 - Caligula
5 - Claudius ("five are fallen")
6 - Nero ("one is")
X - Galba
X - Otho
X - Vitellius
7 - Vespasian ("one is not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain a 'short' while")
8 - Titus ("he is of the seven[th?]")

If Titus is the eleventh (Daniel 7)/eighth (Revelation 17) ruler, it would definitely fall in line with Jesus' words from His Olivet Discourse; Jerusalem was surrounded by Gentile armies (Luke 21:20) under the command of Titus, and the city and temple were destroyed (Luke 21:24, 21:5-6) in 70 AD, which was still within the lifetime of the disciples' generation as Jesus said (Luke 21:32).

Further supporting evidence (as I see it):

Revelation 9 - Take a good look at the "locusts" being described. In Revelation, we don't interpret the "beasts" of chapter 13 as literal beasts, so why should we automatically interpret these "locusts" as literal locusts? Most of the Revelation alludes to the OT, and this is no exception. The book of Joel describes "locusts" as coming upon Jerusalem, but it is made readily apparent that these "locusts" are simply metaphoric for armies marching on to the city, so it seems sensical to interpret the "locusts" of Revelation 13 the same way, as being metaphoric for armies. Their very descriptions are very similar depictions to the looks of the ancient Roman centurions. Gold crowns, hair like a womans, iron breastplates, face like a man's. (http://www.legion-fourteen.com/reduced%20image.jpg)

Revelation 9:14/16:12 - Revelation (which I believe "repeats" its visions a few times over, similar to how the book of Daniel "repeats" its visions) depicts two instances in which the Euphrates is opened up for armies (chapter 9) and kings (chapter 16). Incidentally, kingdoms beyond the Euphrates did send their armies to aide the Titus' Roman armies in their attack upon Jerusalem (the kingdoms of Antiochus IV Epiphanes of Commagene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_of_Commagene) and Sohaemus of Emesa).

vinsight4u8
Jan 22nd 2008, 11:45 AM
Seven kings of blasphemy. Look at the names on the heads in Rev. 13:1.

Read Psalm 74.

Nebuchadnezzar would be the first head, Antiochus of Epiphanes would be the second one. Hadrian would be number 7.

Kahtar
Jan 22nd 2008, 12:34 PM
Thanks,markdward. Another question. You apparently view the seven heads and the 10 horns to be speaking of the same, rather than different entities? It always seemed to me that the 10 came out of the seventh head, arose during or immediately after the seventh head, thus making 18 kings in all.

Kahtar
Jan 22nd 2008, 12:35 PM
Vinsight, would you care to fill in the other five in your view?

markedward
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:11 PM
Thanks,markdward. Another question. You apparently view the seven heads and the 10 horns to be speaking of the same, rather than different entities? It always seemed to me that the 10 came out of the seventh head, arose during or immediately after the seventh head, thus making 18 kings in all.What I see in Daniel 7 is ten horns, minus three, is seven horns, with an "eighth" horn following (the "little horn"). This could, in my opinion, correspond to the seven heads/kings of the beast, with an "eighth" king following, with John's "version" of the beast simply discounting the three emperors who all died in a under a year's time. Hence my numbering previously, with those three emperors grayed-out.

Kahtar
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:23 PM
What I see in Daniel 7 is ten horns, minus three, is seven horns, with an "eighth" horn following (the "little horn"). This could, in my opinion, correspond to the seven heads/kings of the beast, with an "eighth" king following, with John's "version" of the beast simply discounting the three emperors who all died in a under a year's time. Hence my numbering previously, with those three emperors grayed-out.:hmm: Interesting. Thank you.

Cyberseeker
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:21 PM
:hmm: Interesting. Thank you.

For a gnarly old geezer with a big moustache and bullet holes in your hat, you gotta be the politest dude on ETC. :saint:

Kahtar
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:39 PM
Why thankee there, pawdner!
Every now and then I have a moment, ya know?http://7spirits.us/forums/smiles/tangry.gif
But it rarely benefits anyone, and certainly doesn't prove a point.

vinsight4u8
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:16 PM
Vinsight, would you care to fill in the other five in your view?

I see them as:

Nebuchadnezzar II
Antiochus of Epiphanes
Antiochus Eupator
Crassus
Titus

as the five fallen kings
at the time of John


then one is - Domitian

then one was yet to come -Hadrian

>one of the fallen kings will return as the man of sin - Nebuchadnezzar II
>the yoke of iron of Jeremiah 28:14, Deuteronomy 28:48 that breaks in Jeremiah 30:6-9


John saw heads that no longer wore their crowns at the time of Rev. 13:1. All of the seven heads had already ruled by the time of the rising of the ten horns. Then - one dead king (Nebuchadnezzar II) gets his deadly wound healed and rules Babylon's land of Iraq.
the king comes up out of the earth

Rev. 17 - there are seven kings
five are fallen of those seven

and the beast was alive once in the past as a king
-one of the five fallen kings

vinsight4u8
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:19 PM
Notice Rev. 17 shows that all ten kings willingly give their kingdom to the beast. The little horn does not pluck up any of those ten kings by the roots. Daniel 7 therefore shows a total of 13 horns and then the little horn plucks up by the roots three of the 13.

Kahtar
Jan 23rd 2008, 03:17 PM
Okay, thank you Vin, I added those names to the list above.

Kahtar
Jan 23rd 2008, 03:28 PM
Okay, let's continue on. If anyone else has a different view, feel free to add it in.

By the way, my personal view is along the lines of the kingdoms as presented in the list above.

In the 13th chapter of Revelation, there are some 'descriptive elements' concerning the beast. What I would like now is for those of you who are able, to desribe how these various elements apply to the kingdoms/names that you have provided.
The elements are highlighted below.
Revelation 13:1-6 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
(2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,
and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear,
and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
(4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
(6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

markedward
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:21 PM
Daniel 7 therefore shows a total of 13 horns and then the little horn plucks up by the roots three of the 13.Just for my own clarification... but doesn't Daniel 7 outright say the three horns were from the grouping of ten horns, rather than being three additional horns? I'm just curious as to how you came to the conclusion that 13 horns (along with a little horn) are being depicted when most Bible translations read it out as "three of the first [ten] horns."


In the 13th chapter of Revelation, there are some 'descriptive elements' concerning the beast. What I would like now is for those of you who are able, to desribe how these various elements apply to the kingdoms/names that you have provided.Well, I think most of John's imagery in Revelation is "retold" versions of OT prophecies (book of Joel compared to Revelation 9, for example). In the case of the beast, you're asking us to identify it essentially, right?

- Name of blasphemy - This name could correspond to 13:17-18, where the "mark of the beast" is a specific man's name, or the number equal to his name (666, 616, depending on what manuscript your translation relies on). I would guess this. And since I'm a Preterist, you know, I believe 666 (and 616) equate to the name Nero, who I believe was the reigning emperor during the time John wrote the Revelation (refer back to my numbering of the eight kings in Revelation 17, where the sixth king, the "one [that] is," was Nero), so it seems John was referring to the Empire through the name of the one who was in power, Nero. But please understand that I'm not equating the beast as a whole with simply Nero. In Daniel 2 the "golden head" is explained to be Nebuchadnezzar, but since the statue's different metals were symbols for four kingdoms, it's more accurate to say that the "golden head" represented Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom (this was even a commonplace belief during the first century). In that sense, I think the "beast of the earth" represented both Nero (the currently ruling emperor) and his kingdom.

- Leopard, bear, lion - Again, I think John is "borrowing" his imagery from Daniel, this time chapter 7. There we see four beasts, a lion, followed by a bear, followed by a leopard, followed by a "terrible beast." It would require much explanation to get too specific, but I'll try to be short and concise: I see the four beasts of the sea of Daniel 7 as corresponding to the four metals of Daniel 2, each representing four kingdoms (I also believe the second and third kingdoms are explained in-depth in chapters 8 and 11). In Daniel 2 we learned that the first kingdom of the four kingdoms was Babylonia under Nebuchadnezzar. During the first century, it was commonly believed that the silver-section of the statue's two arms represented two kings, corresponding to the bear with two sides (hence, one side raised higher), and to the ram with two horns (one longer than the other), being Media-Persia. The third kingdom being Greece, with Daniel 7 showing it having four heads and Daniel 8 showing a ram's horn breaking into four lesser horns. So the first three beasts of Daniel represent three consecutive kingdoms that each conquered the previous one, resulting in each consecutively gaining control of the land of the Jews. The fourth kingdom is described as "dreadful and terrible," and in Daniel 2 the fourth kingdom is the one that is in rule when the Kingdom of God is established (i.e., Jesus). So in response to all of this, the beast of the sea in Revelation 13, as I see it, is the same beast of the sea that was the fourth kingdom. Reasons: Rome was the fourth consecutive kingdom to rule the land of the Jews (Babylonia, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome). Coincidentally, in that it was the fourth kingdom during the time period that Jesus established the Kingdom of Heaven. Each kingdom conquered the previous one, taking up most (if not all) of what they left behind. In Revelation 13, this could explain why the beast is described as having the attributes of the first three beasts of Daniel 7. Also considerable: first-century Jews (and as a result, probably Christians) believed that Daniel's prophecies did concern the Romans destroying the land of the Jews. Josephus tells us that the Jews of the time believed the four kingdoms had come to pass, but that the stone kingdom (Daniel 2, God's kingdom) was still yet future, but it is important to mention that Josephus and other Jews were more than likely errant in this belief because, after all, they failed to recognize the Messiah. Again, Josephus lets us know that first-century Jews believed that all four kingdoms of Daniel 2's statue had come at that time, and that they recognized Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the prophecies as well, and that they also believed the Romans were in the prophecies of Daniel. Josephus specifically tells us that he believed the "brass kingdom" of Daniel 2 was referring to Alexander the Great, and considering that Alexander the Great is obviously seen in the one-horned ram of chapter 8, and considering the incredible similarities between that one-horned ram becoming four-horned and the four-headed leopard of chapter 7, it's not unlikely that Josephus (and, thusly, first-century Jews) believed likewise that the Daniel 7's vision (four beast-kingdoms followed by the Son of Man and His eternal kingdom) was a mirror image to Daniel 2's vision (four metal-kingdoms followed by God establishing His eternal kingdom), which would explain where and why Josephus and the Jews believed that Rome was prophecied by Daniel to destroy the land of the Jews. Soooooo- considering all of this, that the first-century Jews believed Rome was in the book of Daniel's prophecies, and that the fourth consecutive kingdom to dominate the land of the Jews was Rome, and that Rome was the ruling empire during the time that Jesus established His eternal Kingdom of Heaven, and that the Revelation was written during the rule of the Roman Empire, I'd say that the beast of the sea of Revelation 13 is Rome, and that it is described as being lion-like, bear-like, and leopard-like in that it conquered what once belonged to the three previous kingdoms of Daniel 7, as well as having their power and then some.

- A wounded head - Revelation 17 tells us that the seven heads represent both seven kings and seven hills. Rome was the city of the seven hills, so while it could be said that the wounding of one of the heads is the wounding/killing of one of the kings, it could also be said that it is the wounding of one of the hills, namely, the city. I'd suppose that this could refer to two possible events, each resulting in "42 months" oppressions. First, it could refer to that Rome was set on fire, which absolutely devastated the city. Nero (who was not in Rome at the time, he was in Antium, his hometown) rushed back to the city and paid for rescue operations from his personal funds, and even used his own palaces as relief shelters. People would have been in awe of Nero, tons of people were loyal to him, and when he said "It was the Christians who started the fire," everyone believed him, and Nero and Rome began a persecution of Christians that lasted for about 42 months, faltering off when Nero died in June of 68 AD. However, another possibility for the "wounded head" could mean "head" was referring to both a hill (Rome/the Roman Empire) and a king. When Nero committed suicide, the Empire was in disarray. Three emperors each died in a single year's time, civil wars were erupting over who would be emperor, not to mention the famines and earthquakes that had been happening over the previous decades. Essentially, everyone thought the Roman Empire was going to collapse in on itself and 'die' (Josephus, Antiquities 4.8.1, 4.10.1), and when Vespasian became emperor, people were in surprise that he was able to save the Empire (4.11.5). Following this, Vespasian turned his attention immediately to Judea to conquer it, and the war culminated in the ruin of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 AD, about 42 months after the war began.

- A mouth speaking blasphemies - Notable is that Daniel 7 shows us a little horn "speaking great things," similar to that the beast of Revelation 13 is given a mouth "speaking great and blasphemous things." If Vespasian was the "little horn" of Daniel 7, and the one everyone is in awe of in Revelation 13, post "resurrection" of the beast's head, it would seem he was the one "speaking great and blasphemous things," and making "war upon the saints," as seen in both books. Just as anyone who is against Christ is "antichrist" (according to John), anyone who speaks against God is speaking "blasphemies." All the more "greater" blasphemies when that person is emperor and filled with disgust for the Jews and Christians and God.

In summary:
- Name of blasphemy - Probably the name seen at the end of chapter 13, equal to the number 666 or 616, which I belief referred to the then-ruling emperor, Nero. Just as Nebuchadnezzar was Babylon during the time he ruled, Nero was Rome during the time he ruled.
- Leopard, bear, lion - Revelation draws upon the book of Daniel. Rome was the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7, having followed after and conquered most of the territories belong to the three previous kingdoms, thereby gaining their strengths and "attributes."
- A wounded head - Could be Nero's saving Rome from the fires then persecuting the Christians until his death 42 months later, or Vespasian's saving Rome from ruination then making war in Judea, destroying Jerusalem and the temple 42 months after the war began.
- A mouth speaking blasphemies - As in the case before, it could be Nero or Vespasian, depending on what the "wounded head" was.

Kahtar
Jan 23rd 2008, 10:03 PM
Thanks Mark. I'm going to print this out and read it.

jeffweeder
Jan 24th 2008, 12:38 AM
Hope you dont me sharing a few of my thoughts.

those 7 heads are also 7 mountains on which the woman sits.
Who is the woman? It is either Israel or the church, going on what we read in rev 12.
She also sits on many waters--applying to nations peoples-multitudes and tongues.....

If it is Israel, how could we apply her sitting on 7 mountains ,and waters?

May apply to her dispersation to the nations and dwelling in other countries...

When we see the dragon having 7 heads also, how do we apply that.
Does it not show him being the prince of this world down through the ages-the god of this world? Expressing himself in all these kingdoms?

The lamb has 7 eyes ,7 horns , which show him all seeing and all knowing.-the 7 Spirits-7fold --complete holy Spirit.

If we apply that to the beast, its world kingoms down through the ages, and Israel has rode everyone of them down through history.

How to we the apply the 10 horns, who hate the woman, who have not a kingdom? see dan 7 on the 10 horns that were part of the rome beast (4th)

They give their allegiance to the beast that comes out of the pit.

Is the rev 13 leopard beast the same as the scarlet beast in 17?

REV 13 beast has 7 horns with one wounded to death.-lamb beast gives it life, which may make it the 8th king of rev 17.



REV 17
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

REV 13


It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

How also is only 1 head wouded to death, when all those kingdoms have fallen.

So many QU------so many answers.

That will do .....for now.

God bless everyone of ya.

markedward
Jan 24th 2008, 02:53 AM
She also sits on many waters--applying to nations peoples-multitudes and tongues.....Ah, sorry, this just reminded me of something I failed to add in earlier.

Kahtar,
I also forgot to add in the sidenote that I believe it's possible that when the beasts of Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13 are seen to come from the sea, it might be implying that they are coming from outside of the people of Israel, in that the "sea" or the "waters" are occasionally used as a metaphor for the Gentile (i.e., not of the people of Israel) world.

ross3421
Jan 24th 2008, 05:54 AM
The thing to understand in the direction from which this beast comes. This beast comes UP from the sea (below). If the sea represents people there would be no reason for the beast to come up from........

Re 13:1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,

Also we see Leviathan in Job 41 which is in the sea or ie below the earth. Furthermore, we see spirits of devils like frogs (again from water to earth)coming forth out of the beast? Where demonic spirits reside? What has previosly been opened? The abyss.

Isa 27:1In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.


This beast in Rev 13 comes UP from below as John is depecting the sea as where the dragon resides. What we have in chapter 13 is the kingdom of the beast below upon the earth which will later be destroyed by the kingdom from above.


The 7 heads have no name, they are no known country nor known kings as they are from the kingdom of Satan itself. These 7 are like the 7 in God's kingdom and are leaders of the church of Satan ie. those which accept the mark of the beast.


Mark

2Witnesses
Jan 24th 2008, 06:22 AM
Shalom,

Revelation 17 is key to unlocking much concerning the end of days and understanding the great mystery of the little horn.

The 7 are seven kingdoms which have existed over history. And the 8th, is one of he 7 revived. But no, it is not Rome.

The 10 horns are not yet. They exist yes. But they will have no part until the middle of the 70th week.

This 8th is the same as the 'beast with the deadly wound, of Rev. 13. And it is one which has recently risen from the sea, the sea of the nations.

But one will also come soon, the 'beast out of the earth', who arises from a 'land restored'.

2witnesses http://www.habagministry.com

ross3421
Jan 24th 2008, 08:32 AM
Shalom,

Revelation 17 is key to unlocking much concerning the end of days and understanding the great mystery of the little horn.

The 7 are seven kingdoms which have existed over history. And the 8th, is one of he 7 revived. But no, it is not Rome.

The 10 horns are not yet. They exist yes. But they will have no part until the middle of the 70th week.

This 8th is the same as the 'beast with the deadly wound, of Rev. 13. And it is one which has recently risen from the sea, the sea of the nations.

But one will also come soon, the 'beast out of the earth', who arises from a 'land restored'.

2witnesses http://www.habagministry.com


One problem...... the great Whore is not yet upon the earth.

Mark

jeffweeder
Jan 24th 2008, 10:33 AM
The dragons objective was to go after the woman, who gave birth to the man child and those that hold to the childs testimony.
We should keep sight of this ,as he stands on the sea shore and summons the beast out of the sea.
Rev 17 sees the woman riding this beast in the end, as to think that by his deceptive means he gets either the church or Israel to ride the old kingdom that he once sort of had control over.
Dont forget that Jesus Christ stripped him of any authority that he might of had.
Maybe this is the wound unto death to the world kingdoms. as Jesus is now with all authority in heaven, and on earth...a fatal wound indeed to the plans of the dragon through world kingdoms.

then is behind a lamb like beast, as though he now has to pretend to be the lamb, in order to get back what he lost when he got thrown out of heaven.
He is a false prophet, so much so that he causes apostasy in the church...talk about trying to set yourself up in Gods temple...even the elect will be at risk.

Thats why i said that papal rome might be the 7th and the more likely one to come back.

That sort of happened already, when mussolini reinstituted a few things....so the eighth is brewing maybe. If the pope takes his seat in Jerusalem, or something like that, that will be it.

I could be wrong though lol

2Witnesses
Jan 24th 2008, 12:02 PM
One problem...... the great Whore is not yet upon the earth.

Mark

Hi Mark,

The fact is the 'whore' has been on the earth for a long time now. She has always been, in one city or another, attached to one kingdom or another.

And she is here now. But yes, yet to be fully manifested in her final form and place. And her final place is Jerusalem.

2witnesses

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2008, 01:39 PM
Hi Mark,

The fact is the 'whore' has been on the earth for a long time now. She has always been, in one city or another, attached to one kingdom or another.

And she is here now. But yes, yet to be fully manifested in her final form and place. And her final place is Jerusalem.

2witnesses

The whore as spoken of in Revelation 17 is not yet come she is called Babylon;

Rev 17:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 17:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 14:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 16:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

She is yet to come.

Kahtar
Jan 24th 2008, 01:45 PM
Thank you all for your input. PLease keep in mind the topic is the seven heads, not the woman, or even the dragon, except in how they apply to the seven heads.
I'm tied up with real life at the moment, but I'll be getting back here soon.

Kahtar
Jan 24th 2008, 05:09 PM
Okay, my real life was cancelled for the day...:lol:
So..........
Here is my perspective:
First, it is ONE beast, but has seven heads. All the heads are attached to the beast. Which means all are tied together in some way, controlled by one mind. The beast gets it's power from the serpent, which scripture clearly identifies as Satan. The Woman is not the beast, but rides it. She sits upon the seven mountains, or the seven empires. Which means she also is in some way tied to all seven.
All seven are empires which either enslaved or oppressed Israel. All seven are described as being 'mountains on which the woman sitteth', each with an associated king. Babylon is called a 'destroying mountain' in Jeremiah 51:24-26. Samaria is called a mountain in Amos 6:1. Another is called a 'great mountain' in Zechariah 4:7. Each of these are a nation/kingdom.
In the time of John's writing, 5 of these had fallen, one then existed, and one was yet to come, and out of that yet to come one, the little horn, or final empire, would arise.
The description given in Revelation 13 ties this beast to the four beasts of Daniel, which are directly related to the vision of the statue with four metals. But obviously, Daniel only describes four.
The dragon, which has seven heads, is the spiritual power and authority that drives the beast.
The beast I believe describes the spiritual power realized in the physical realm. In other words, Satan uses these empires, and kings, to battle against the woman and her seed. It is an age-old battle that began in the garden and continues to this day. Because the seed of the woman comes through the nation of Israel, that battle tends to focus upon Israel.
Thus, down through the ages, the serpent has raised up empire after empire to attempt to destroy the Seed. Therefore, while we are presented with actually eight kingdoms, they are all one beast, driven by one and the same power, and have the same purpose.
The first empire, or head, therefore, was Egypt, who enslaved the nation of Israel.
The next one was the Assyrian Empire, which is the first of Zechariah's four horns. Of Zechariah's horns, we read that they represented those gentile nations that 'scattered Israel'.
The third 'head', or empire, is Babylon, the second of Zechie's horns, the head of gold in Nebbie's dream, and the beast like a lion in Daniel's four beasts, tied to the beast of Revelation who has a mouth like a lion.
The fourth head is Medo-Persia, the third horn of Zech., the (two)arms and breast of silver in Nebbie's statue, which two were the Medes and the Persians, the bear of Daniel, which raised up on one side, so that one side was 'higher' than the other, the ram with two horns of Daniel 8, one higher than the other, and tied to the beast of Revelation which had 'feet like a bear'.
The fifth is the Greek Empire, the 4th Zech. horn, the belly and thighs of brass, the beast like a leopard with four wings and four heads (which speaks of the four generals when the empire was divided), the ram with a notable horn of Daniel 8, which horn was broken and four rose up in it's place, and tied to the beast of Rev, which was like a leopard.
These are the five that had already fallen in John's time.
The sixth, the 'one that is', was the Roman Empire, the legs of iron, 'strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.', and tied to the beast who was strong as iron, '(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.(4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?'
From here it is a guessing game, but my 'guess' is as follows:
7- Possibly the Ottoman Empire, possibly not yet arrived
8- Possibly the Arab Alliance
But we can be relatively sure that who or whatever the seventh and eighth are, they will have the same power and purpose as all the empires/heads before them.
In each of those first six, if you look at the maps of them, all six completely surrounded and encompassed Israel, all six comprised what today is the Arab world, only ONE taking in portions of Europe. The Ottoman Empire took in roughly the same landmass, and today the Arab world, and the Arab Alliance, comprise the same area, and, by no coincidence, the same purpose, which is to drive Israel into the sea.

Here is an interesting twist for you. I think the view that all this was fulfilled by AD70 is correct. BUT, I also believe that, as with a few other prophecies, it was the first fulfillment, but that there is a greater fulfillment yet to come.
An example, the Feast of Tabernacles was literally fulfilled in the Wilderness, as God's Presence moved with them. It was God dwelling with man on earth. It was again fulfilled at the birth of Christ, and for 33 years God again dwelt with man on the earth. And it will, according to my understanding, be fulfilled yet again when Christ returns to the earth to set up His earthly reign for a thousand years. At that time, God will again be dwelling with man on earth. The first was a fulfillment, the second a greater fulfillment, and the third the greatest fulfillment of God with man, He Who was, and is, and is to come.

markedward
Jan 24th 2008, 07:56 PM
One problem...... the great Whore is not yet upon the earth.A) You don't know that, you merely believe it. What you believe does not automatically make someone else's beliefs wrong simply because they differ.

B) This thread was for Kahtar to gather information from different "camps" of eschatology, not for you (or anyone else) to tell someone they're wrong.

ross3421
Jan 24th 2008, 07:57 PM
Thank you all for your input. PLease keep in mind the topic is the seven heads, not the woman, or even the dragon, except in how they apply to the seven heads.
I'm tied up with real life at the moment, but I'll be getting back here soon.

Kahtar,

What we are trying to show you and others is that the woman in which these 7 heads sits upon has not come up upon the earth thus the 7 heads themselves are not yet upon the earth! Do you see this?

Mark

ross3421
Jan 24th 2008, 08:25 PM
A) You don't know that, you merely believe it. What you believe does not automatically make someone else's beliefs wrong simply because they differ.


Then if the women (city) is upon the earth then what city is it? Furthermore we then should now who the beast is which rides her. Who is he?




B) This thread was for Kahtar to gather information from different "camps" of eschatology, not for you (or anyone else) to tell someone they're wrong.

We are not telling people they are wrong. Merely stating that scripture does not show this city to be yet on the earth and the 7 heads can not yet be identified. This seems to be very valuable information to those on this thread.


Mark

markedward
Jan 24th 2008, 08:29 PM
I have a few questions, just out of curiosity.


The first empire, or head, therefore, was Egypt, who enslaved the nation of Israel.Why do you start with Egypt as the first of the seven heads? Did the Egyptians ever really control the nation (i.e., country/land) of Israel, or just the people who willingly moved to Egypt beforehand? Out of the whole list you have, this one seems a bit inconsistent, in that it is separated by a good chunk of time until your next kingdom makes its move (whereas, the others are consecutive, up through Rome), and that it never actually controlled the land of Israel like the other ones did; what do you think?

The next one was the Assyrian Empire, which is the first of Zechariah's four horns. Of Zechariah's horns, we read that they represented those gentile nations that 'scattered Israel'.Why do you start with Assyria as the four horns, rather than Egypt?


The fifth is the Greek Empire, the 4th Zech. horn, the belly and thighs of brass, the beast like a leopard with four wings and four heads (which speaks of the four generals when the empire was divided), the ram with a notable horn of Daniel 8, which horn was broken and four rose up in it's place, and tied to the beast of Rev, which was like a leopard.Just for my own curiosity, did the Greeks ever really "scatter" the people of Israel in order to be included with the four horns? In that sense, weren't the Media-Persians the ones who "unscattered" (so to speak) the Jews by allowing them to return to Israel?

7- Possibly the Ottoman Empire, possibly not yet arrivedWhy such a huge gap in time? First there was the Egyptian-enslavement separated by a good deal of time from the second kingdom (and the Egyptian-enslavement seems inconsistent to be counted with what the other kingdoms have done), and then a 1500-year gap between the Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire... why would some be so tightly-packed together in time while others are hundreds of years apart?



An example, the Feast of Tabernacles was literally fulfilled in the Wilderness, as God's Presence moved with them. It was God dwelling with man on earth. It was again fulfilled at the birth of Christ, and for 33 years God again dwelt with man on the earth. And it will, according to my understanding, be fulfilled yet again when Christ returns to the earth to set up His earthly reign for a thousand years. At that time, God will again be dwelling with man on earth. The first was a fulfillment, the second a greater fulfillment, and the third the greatest fulfillment of God with man, He Who was, and is, and is to come.The "first" fulfillment of many prophecies was seen as the Type, while the "second" fulfillment of those prophecies was seen as the Archtype... but take note that all of the Archtypes were fulfilled during or after the initial arrival of Jesus. I mean, you more than likely agree that we're not gonna see a third fulfillment of Isaiah's "virgin birth," right? If the Type fulfillment was the "shadow" (such as the sacrifical lambs being "shadows") and the Archtype was the fulfillment of the "shadow" (such as Jesus being the final, one and only, sacrificial "lamb") what would come after that?

markedward
Jan 24th 2008, 08:42 PM
We are not telling people they are wrong. Merely stating that scripture does not show this city to be yet on the earth and the 7 heads can not yet be identified. This seems to be very valuable information to those on this thread.No... you believe that Scripture does not show the city to be around yet. You believe that the seven heads cannot be identified. I believe that the prostitute was on earth already, and I believe that the seven heads can be identified. Our beliefs differ, but you would tell me that I am wrong only because you believe something different about Scripture than I do. So yes, you were telling someone they were wrong on the mere fact that your beliefs disagreed. Just because you interpret it differently doesn't mean you can say you know the other person is wrong... It's an intepretation, not a set of facts.


Then if the women (city) is upon the earth then what city is it? Furthermore we then should now who the beast is which rides her. Who is he?I recommend reading the whole thread from page 1. And, just in case it comes up, if you try to pick apart my posts, trying to prove I'm wrong on such-and-such topic, I'm not going to respond. If you want to ask me a question about what I believe, I'd be fine with responding to that.

Kahtar
Jan 24th 2008, 10:00 PM
Please try to play nice, guys. I'll not be very happy if I have to close my own thread.:rolleyes:

Mark, I'll get to your questions, but I want to give you an intelligent response, not something off the top of my head, so have a little patience. Meanwhile, here is the Egyptian Empire.
Egyptian Empire
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:i1snp6UGI68rVM:http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/egyptian_empire_1450_bc.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/egyptian_empire_1450_bc.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/map_egyptian_empire_1450_bc.html&h=593&w=500&sz=44&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=i1snp6UGI68rVM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3DEgyptian%2BEmpire%26svnum%3D10%26um%3 D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN)

danield
Jan 24th 2008, 10:39 PM
I recommend reading the whole thread from page 1. And, just in case it comes up, if you try to pick apart my posts, trying to prove I'm wrong on such-and-such topic, I'm not going to respond. If you want to ask me a question about what I believe, I'd be fine with responding to that.

Please know Mark that in my questions about your train of thought was not to down play your views on it at all but to the contrary. I think you are a very smart person. You have good reasoning skills and can back your case up well and thoroughly go through how your views fit in with each scripture. I want someone to convince me otherwise because what I see greatly disturbs me in my own interpretation. I do have questions about how people account for different things and that is the reason I have asked questions. Not to downplay your opinion but how you arrived at your opinion. Anyway, keep coming with your own views because you are a blessing to this board, and even tough we don’t agree with end times, there are so many things about scripture that we do agree on. Have a great one friend and may God bless you in all that you do!:pp

Kahtar
Jan 25th 2008, 12:28 AM
Okay, Mark. My time to spend on this was more limited that I would have liked. But here are my answers:

Why do you start with Egypt as the first of the seven heads? Did the Egyptians ever really control the nation (i.e., country/land) of Israel, or just the people who willingly moved to Egypt beforehand? Out of the whole list you have, this one seems a bit inconsistent, in that it is separated by a good chunk of time until your next kingdom makes its move (whereas, the others are consecutive, up through Rome), and that it never actually controlled the land of Israel like the other ones did; what do you think?
Yes, the Egyptians did control what was then called Canaan, as the map I provided illustrates.
The Nation of Israel began in Egypt. At the time of Joseph, it was merely a large family. By the time of Moses, it had grown to over a million people, and that after the killing of the firstborn of Israel. When they were set free, they were a nation.
Egypt was the first empire to enslave and oppress Israel.
I don't think the amount of time between the empires is of any significance.


Why do you start with Assyria as the four horns, rather than Egypt?

I start with Assyria as the first of the four horns, primarily because of this verse:
Zechariah 1:19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What these? And he answered me, These [are] the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.
At the time of this vision, Rome had not come to power, and the verse speaks of those nations who had already scattered Israel, ending with Babylon, who was then in power.

Just for my own curiosity, did the Greeks ever really "scatter" the people of Israel in order to be included with the four horns? In that sense, weren't the Media-Persians the ones who "unscattered" (so to speak) the Jews by allowing them to return to Israel?
Not sure on this one. I'll have to do some more digging on that. Good question. But, Egypt certainly did not scatter them.
Who do you think the four horns are?


Why such a huge gap in time? First there was the Egyptian-enslavement separated by a good deal of time from the second kingdom (and the Egyptian-enslavement seems inconsistent to be counted with what the other kingdoms have done), and then a 1500-year gap between the Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire... why would some be so tightly-packed together in time while others are hundreds of years apart?


Why the gap? I don't know. Why the gap from Christ's Resurrection to His second coming? I'm certainly not positive on the Ottoman Empire anyway. It is entirely possible that it does not enter into the picture. The seventh and eighth could still be yet to come, which of course makes an even larger gap. But Israel wasn't a nation during that time, either. That didn't occur until recently.


The "first" fulfillment of many prophecies was seen as the Type, while the "second" fulfillment of those prophecies was seen as the Archtype... but take note that all of the Archtypes were fulfilled during or after the initial arrival of Jesus. I mean, you more than likely agree that we're not gonna see a third fulfillment of Isaiah's "virgin birth," right? [B]Right If the Type fulfillment was the "shadow" (such as the sacrifical lambs being "shadows") and the Archtype was the fulfillment of the "shadow" (such as Jesus being the final, one and only, sacrificial "lamb") what would come after that?

You are correct, the first fulfillment is the Type, and the second the Archtype. I don't know what you would correctly name subsequent fulfillments. The fact that one prophecy has more than one fulfillment does not mean that all have to or do, and the fact that many have been fulfilled through Christ once does not mean they cannot be fulfilled again.
I do understand your position on that, though, and here we'll probably just have to disagree.
I was surprised actually at how similarly we interpret many of the scriptures considering our (polar opposite?) positions.
Well, that's the best I have for the time I had. You inspired me to study out those four horns a little more, tho.;)

markedward
Jan 25th 2008, 12:56 AM
I start with Assyria as the first of the four horns, primarily because of this verse:

Zechariah 1:19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What these? And he answered me, These [are] the horns which [B]have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.
At the time of this vision, Rome had not come to power, and the verse speaks of those nations who had already scattered Israel, ending with Babylon, who was then in power.That sounds reasonable.


Not sure on this one. I'll have to do some more digging on that. Good question. But, Egypt certainly did not scatter them.
Who do you think the four horns are?To be honest, I really only read Zechariah all the way through last month, and I'd never noticed the prophecy of the four horns until then, so I haven't devoted any time to a study with Zechariah as the focus. But I do remember something about the chapter... doesn't it say that four blacksmiths (or something like that) would come about after the four horns to put them down? Let me go look... okay... four "craftsmen," who were to come to "terrify and throw down" the four horns. Do you have any ideas as to who they are?


Why the gap? I don't know. Why the gap from Christ's Resurrection to His second coming?Well, my explanation for that would be Jesus' "this generation" statement in the Olivet Discourse, but you and most others will probably disagree with me on that one.


You are correct, the first fulfillment is the Type, and the second the Archtype. I don't know what you would correctly name subsequent fulfillments. The fact that one prophecy has more than one fulfillment does not mean that all have to or do, and the fact that many have been fulfilled through Christ once does not mean they cannot be fulfilled again.
I do understand your position on that, though, and here we'll probably just have to disagree.On this account, do you believe in a third physical temple will be (presumably built, and then) destroyed? This might deviate from the intention of the thread, but I've asked a few people this question and I've honestly never seen it answered; if Jesus is our temple/priest/one-and-only-sacrifice/etc., what would be the purpose of a third temple? If the first two temples were only ever built with God's approval, why would God allow the building of a third one if Jesus is our "third" temple? If the sacrificial lambs were only supposed to be performed until the coming of Jesus, why would God allow them to resume when Jesus is our one-and-only sacrificial lamb? If the priesthood was meant to be a shadow of our High Priest, and our High Priest Jesus has already come, why would God allow them to resume their work? As I see it, the building of a third physical temple wouldn't be a work against God's approval, since Jesus took away the need for those things. And since those things aren't needed on account of Jesus, wouldn't building another temple and resuming those practices blaspheme Jesus and our redemption in Him? How could a third temple be desecrated if God never dwelt in it? I know this might seem like I'm trying to convince you of how I see it, but I'm honestly just asking for how you (or other "Futurist" viewtypes) fit around this (apparent) inconsistency with the Old Testament's documentation of the temples and the NT's teachings that Jesus fulfilled those things.


Well, that's the best I have for the time I had. You inspired me to study out those four horns a little more, tho.;)And I as well; send me a PM or something with the conclusions of your study.

ross3421
Jan 25th 2008, 02:24 AM
No... you believe that Scripture does not show the city to be around yet. You believe that the seven heads cannot be identified. I believe that the prostitute was on earth already, and I believe that the seven heads can be identified.

If THE city has been on earth before it should not be such a big mystery and debate. Likewise the heads should be easily identified.




Our beliefs differ, but you would tell me that I am wrong only because you believe something different about Scripture than I do. So yes, you were telling someone they were wrong on the mere fact that your beliefs disagreed. Just because you interpret it differently doesn't mean you can say you know the other person is wrong... It's an interpretation, not a set of facts.


I have never have come straight out and said you were wrong. If telling people they are wrong due to beliefs disagreeing then everybody has told folks they are wrong at some point.

Don't be so defensive when your views are challenged.



If you want to ask me a question about what I believe, I'd be fine with responding to that.

I have asked you....... What is the city?

:kiss:

Kahtar
Jan 25th 2008, 02:31 AM
okay... four "craftsmen," who were to come to "terrify and throw down" the four horns. Do you have any ideas as to who they are?Not a clue....:lol:

Well, my explanation for that would be Jesus' "this generation" statement in the Olivet Discourse, but you and most others will probably disagree with me on that one.Understood.

On this account, do you believe in a third physical temple will be (presumably built, and then) destroyed?Actually, I do believe a third one will be rebuilt. But that does not mean I believe it is something God will sanction. I believe they are going to do it because it is their desire, and they frankly could care less how it may blaspheme Jesus.
You are correct, we are now the Temple, and He our High Priest, and we are the priesthood, with all that entails, on a spiritual level of course.
If they get it built, they will undoubtedly resume sacrifices.
But, (since I am premill) I believe the antichrist will cause them to cease midway into the trib, because he will want their worship.
When Christ returns, whatever structures that are there at that time will be destroyed when He sets up His kingdom and His throne on earth. (I understand your position on this;))

Cyberseeker
Jan 25th 2008, 02:50 AM
Why such a huge gap in time? ... and then a 1500-year gap between the Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire... why would some be so tightly-packed together in time while others are hundreds of years apart?


I prefer to say 'Islamic Empire' because 'Ottoman' only describes a recent manifestation of it. One of the things people misunderstand is that Islam has for most of history existed as a geo-political empire. It is quite different to the Catholic Church which has been a religious 'empire.'

So in answering your objection Markedward, the end of Rome (western) was AD476 and the beginning of the Islamic Empire was AD622 - only 150 years.

The gap between was (according to Dan 7) filled with 10 small kingdoms which rose out of the original Roman empire. An example is the kingdom of the Franks. (France) And guess what? A careful study of dark age history shows that there were indeed 10 kingdoms after the chaos of Romes collapse. Not nine, not eleven - exactly ten. Then one hundred and fifty years later the Islamic invasions began resulting in three of the ten before-mentioned kings falling.

Just like Daniel said it would happen.

No gaps at all.

Kahtar
Jan 25th 2008, 03:14 AM
Cyber, can you list those 10 kingdoms you're talking about? I'd like to look into that a bit.

Cyberseeker
Jan 25th 2008, 03:19 AM
I can do better than that. If you talk Project into permitting images on ETC Ill load up a map.

(otherwise its a link to my forum) :help:

Kahtar
Jan 25th 2008, 03:48 AM
I don't think there's a problem with images, unless they contain porn or other non-Christian stuff. Can't do the link to your forum tho.

markedward
Jan 25th 2008, 04:05 AM
While you're giving info about the ten kingdoms and who they were (and the eleventh as well, I would assume), since you [cyberseeker] were referring specifically to Daniel, could you tack on info about the "three king[dom]s" that were "plucked out" (said to be "humbled" later in the chapter) but the little horn?

I'd like to add in that, in my views, that the four "kingdoms" seen in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 each specifically had total domination over the land of Israel; Babylon took over all of the land, then Media-Persia had control over the land, then Greece had total control, then Rome did. Do you [cyberseeker] also take that view, and if so, did/do the "exactly ten" kingdoms (and presumably the eleventh "little horn" kingdom as well) that followed Rome each have total domination of the land of Israel as well?

Cyberseeker
Jan 25th 2008, 04:34 AM
Kahtar, Mark,

Ill start a seperate thread on the 10 kings aspect, since this topic is more specifically to do with the world empires which preceed the 10 (and follow)

Kahtar
Jan 25th 2008, 05:48 AM
Okay, thanks, Cyber....:)

So, anyone else have thoughts on the seven heads?

Stefen
Jan 25th 2008, 06:04 AM
Shalom,

Revelation 17 is key to unlocking much concerning the end of days and understanding the great mystery of the little horn.

The 7 are seven kingdoms which have existed over history. And the 8th, is one of he 7 revived. But no, it is not Rome.

The 10 horns are not yet. They exist yes. But they will have no part until the middle of the 70th week.

This 8th is the same as the 'beast with the deadly wound, of Rev. 13. And it is one which has recently risen from the sea, the sea of the nations.

But one will also come soon, the 'beast out of the earth', who arises from a 'land restored'.

2witnesses http://www.habagministry.com

Hello, I would be very grateful for you to tell me more about your understanding of Rev 17. I don't believe Rome is the 8th either.

ross3421
Jan 25th 2008, 07:16 AM
[quote=Kahtar;1512020]In the time of John's writing, 5 of these had fallen,

Of course not to say your wrong........but is it a possibility that John was writing about a future vision in which 5 will fall.???

Who was the women (city) in the following verse. Future or Past.

Wilderness

Also we see her in a wilderness. i.e wilderness (Greek word Eremos to mean desolate, Uninhabited). So this city is in the midst of a unahibited desolate land. If we align other scriptures relating to this situation we have the following at a time when the AC is upon the earth.

Isa 14:16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;Isa 14:17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?


Dressed in scarlet, gold and jewels

Also this city needs to be adorned with the above. has there been past city? Yes Jerusalem. Will there be a future city dressed in this manner? Yes Jerusalem.

Re 21:11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Re 21:21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.


The beast will ride her

The women is upon the earth thus so needs the beast which could not happen yet since the beast has not yet come up from the bottomless pit.

Re 17:8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Notice the beast in scarlet ie. robe of a king and the vesture Christ is wearing as well.

Re 17:3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The remaining description of this beast is when the beast comes up from the bottomless pit and rides and in charge of this city and not before. The 7 heads do not appear upon the earth before this time. This aligns with rev 13 when we see this beast come up from the sea onto the earth and the 42 months.


Sorry for being so dogmatic about the issue but you guys needs to consider this possibility.


Mark

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2008, 11:02 AM
According to these scriptures the beast must come inorder for us to know the seven heads as it is the beast that has the seven heads.

Rev 13:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 17:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

No beast, no seven heads. no whore

Know the beast, know the seven heads, know the whore.

The beast must be.

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 12:05 PM
Okay, thank you Vin, I added those names to the list above.


Did you read Psalm 74? It is the story of how Nebuchadnezzar's group taking the holy site was the sin of blasphemy, due to God's name is located on the holy site place.

So Rev. 13 - having the heads as named - blasphemy would begin with Nebuchadnezzar.

Babylon never ruled her 70 years for her kings yet and this is also shown as to the city of Tyre in Isaiah 23:15.
Tyre is mystery, Babylon for the end.
Babylon (Iraq) is regular Babylon for the end.

Jeremiah wrote of how Babylon's mother will fall first.
Jeremiah 50-51.
speaking to Babylon on the Euphrates River
your mother shall be sore confounded


Tyre is a city that God has forgotten (as in delayed the rest of her destruction time) until the last part of one king's seventy years come to pass.

Babylon's king of 70 years passes, then God will remember the punishment due Tyre and let her burn.

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 12:14 PM
Okay, let's continue on. If anyone else has a different view, feel free to add it in.

By the way, my personal view is along the lines of the kingdoms as presented in the list above.

In the 13th chapter of Revelation, there are some 'descriptive elements' concerning the beast. What I would like now is for those of you who are able, to desribe how these various elements apply to the kingdoms/names that you have provided.
The elements are highlighted below.
Revelation 13:1-6 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
(2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,
and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear,
and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
(4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
(6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


Start with the look of the seven heads in Rev. 12. In chapter 12 they do not yet have the name of blasphemy and instead are shown with a crown,
as
the seven kings were to rule /
die
and then as we draw to the end days - they are shown now with their evil sin name that they each earned in their past.

The time of them wearing their Rev. 12 crowns ended at each of their deaths and they get represented instead by the sin name they each earned.
blasphemy

One of their sins at the holy site equals the number of 666.

Solomon seems to have built the temple with an amount recorded as to 666 talents of gold.

Nebuchadnezzar destroyed that temple.

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 12:22 PM
The seven heads are seven kings whose kingdom has already come and gone (the first six), you would have to look up history because my mind is too old to remember. The seventh and eightth are the same king, the seventh rules for a short time but dies, the eighth is the same king though he has been brought back to life somehow.

The kingdoms are the 10 horns, this is more likely what you are referring to though I venture no guess as to who they happen to be.

I see it as showing us that one of the five fallen (as in was) kings will be back as the 8th king of blasphemy.

John was shown five kings (fallen) and told that the beast was and is not. John is told that he is at the time of the 6th king as is.
-so only the first five kings were gone by then

one king was yet to come
/I see this as Hadrian and his laws went on even after his death - as was stated - such rules continued according to the laws of Hadrian.

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 12:30 PM
I know I am not speaking from an eschatological camp other than my own, but I believe that the seven kings talked about in Rev 17 are our presidents. I Just do not see kingdoms being stretched out over 1000's of years, but more confined to a generation being able to see it unfold.

Also notice this line and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth. This could be talking about a sudden death in that term and a VP coming in to finish out his Seventh term, but that VP being the 8th king to rule in that 7th term or 7 different elected presidents.


Why would U.S. presidents be tied to Rev. 12? The seven heads here are the same as in Rev. 13 and are linked up with the dragon/devil. Rev. 12 is an account of how the holy site (the earthly throne) that will rule all nations is to be fought over. The Manchild was caught up to heaven to one day rule all of the nations on the earth, but the devil also wants to do that.

So - the holy site is fought over.

the dragon has - fallen angels
seven wicked kings (of which one of the earliest kings of that bunch will return)

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 12:56 PM
... A few questions I have are when Christ made this statement
“Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

.....

When you see all these things - that is when we are to know that we are the last generation. Okay, what things will we see?
not the wars and rumours of wars part
as that is - the still be not troubled time

The beginning of sorrows is for the last generation. The time of nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom.
these are the beginning of sorrows

I see as a warning to watch for World War III. It is not the last war - not even the time yet of the man of sin, but is Daniel's 11:14-19 prophecy.
the king of the north - Iraq
against Israel

there shall be no strength to withstand


Also Revelation covers much time (past, present (day of John) and future clear to the end times -the new heaven and earth.

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 01:06 PM
Okay, let's continue on. If anyone else has a different view, feel free to add it in.

Rev, 13
...(5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
(6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Daniel notes this same person as the little horn.

Daniel 7:11
"...because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake."

verse 8
"...a mouth speaking great things."


Psalm 74 - as to the name of blasphemy on a king/kingdom of his.
verse 3
"...the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary."
verse 7
"...the dwelling place of thy name to the ground."
verse 10
"...blaspheme thy name..."

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2008, 01:11 PM
Did you read Psalm 74? It is the story of how Nebuchadnezzar's group taking the holy site was the sin of blasphemy, due to God's name is located on the holy site place.

So Rev. 13 - having the heads as named - blasphemy would begin with Nebuchadnezzar.

Babylon never ruled her 70 years for her kings yet and this is also shown as to the city of Tyre in Isaiah 23:15.
Tyre is mystery, Babylon for the end.
Babylon (Iraq) is regular Babylon for the end.

Jeremiah wrote of how Babylon's mother will fall first.
Jeremiah 50-51.
speaking to Babylon on the Euphrates River
your mother shall be sore confounded


Tyre is a city that God has forgotten (as in delayed the rest of her destruction time) until the last part of one king's seventy years come to pass.

Babylon's king of 70 years passes, then God will remember the punishment due Tyre and let her burn.

With regards to the following the beast is here at the return of Christ and then he and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. This cannot be Nebuchadnezzar as he is long gone. The beast that will be, is not yet, he must be here when Christ returns.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Unless you can show that this has passed, then it must be yet to come.

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 01:16 PM
Psalm 79 shows that Israel then requested that God punish Babylon sevenfold.

Psalm 79:12
"And render unto our neighbors sevenfold into their bosom their reproach..."


Isaiah 30:26
"...the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold...in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound."

verse 30
"And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard...verse 31 ...the Assyrian be beaten down..."

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 01:35 PM
Just for my own clarification... but doesn't Daniel 7 outright say the three horns were from the grouping of ten horns, rather than being three additional horns? I'm just curious as to how you came to the conclusion that 13 horns (along with a little horn) are being depicted when most Bible translations read it out as "three of the first [ten] horns."

Well, I think most of John's imagery in Revelation is "retold" versions of OT prophecies (book of Joel compared to Revelation 9, for example). In the case of the beast, you're asking us to identify it essentially, right?

-....

three of the first

Okay, this made me wonder why did John not just say/

plucked up three
plucked up three of those ten

John refers to how the little horn was seen plucking up three of the first. I asked this then, how many times did John see another set of horns grouped together?

Daniel 7 begins noting that Daniel had visions.
plural
so not just one single story is told alone in this chapter

We have to look for several stories of the end times.
That is why the chapter continues with relating to us two times as to the little horn that spoke great words.
Daniel saw the little horn doing that for two different story times (visions) in the chapter.

Note that at verse 7 - the word is no longer vision - but changes to visions. Here is where Daniel is beginning a whole new story. He begins by seeing a fourth beast - but this one has ten horns. He also saw a fourth beast during the first story given, but quit giving us the details once he told us about the third beast up out of the sea.
Daniel stopped telling us about the first vision of the night before he told us about the 4th beast in that particular vision.

Why did he do that?
Because he saw beasts (a 4th one) two times and they were very similar. The first time he saw a fourth beast - the little horn plucked up by the roots three other horns.

The time of the second 4th beast vision of the night - began with advancing in time to the point where three had already been plucked up. Only ten horns being left - and Daniel again saw the little horn having great words.

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2008, 01:41 PM
Psalm 79 shows that Israel then requested that God punish Babylon sevenfold.

Psalm 79:12
"And render unto our neighbors sevenfold into their bosom their reproach..."


Isaiah 30:26
"...the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold...in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound."

verse 30
"And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard...verse 31 ...the Assyrian be beaten down..."

So then when did God pour out his wrath by the trumpets and vials on babylon? which would also mean that the end has already passed.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 18:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 01:53 PM
With regards to the following the beast is here at the return of Christ and then he and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. This cannot be Nebuchadnezzar as he is long gone. The beast that will be, is not yet, he must be here when Christ returns.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Unless you can show that this has passed, then it must be yet to come.

The beast /little horn king is not coming again from a woman - as he will come up out of the earth -the bottomless pit.
Nebuchadnezzar is the yoke that has yet to be broken off of the necks of the nations.

Seems he comes in his prepared for the lake of fire body.

John was told - five kings are fallen
\ the beast was and is not

That makes the beast a long ago dead one of five fallen kings that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and is already judged to end up in perdition.

4IMUNURME
Jan 25th 2008, 01:54 PM
The Beasts, Heads, and Horns

First we need an understanding of secular history, and of the various world empires or kingdoms of man.

Secular History:
Seven World
Kingdoms

1st Empire: Egypt
2nd Empire: Assyria
3rd Empire: Babylon (Book of Daniel 536 B.C.E.) also (Book of Zechariah 518 B.C.E.)
4th Empire: Media-Persia
5th Empire: Greece
6th Empire: Rome (Book of Revelation 96 C.E.)
7th Empire: UK->USA stems from the seven or seventh.
8th Empire: USA (The Wild Beast) also UK & USA becomes a Two-Horned Wild Beast *Dual World Power!

The 8th creates the
Image of the Wild Beast: United Nations
The Ten would be Kings: The Ten (10) non-permanent members of the UN Security Councel.

The Voice of the Wild Beast or the Small Horn of Daniel: The President of the United States


The above reference is used to show that the four beasts (or Kingdoms) of Daniel, and the seven heads (or Kings) of Revelation are one in the same. Consider the two timelines. In Daniel's time he was living during the Babylonian Empire. In John's time he was living during the Roman Empire. This is supported in the following two verses.

Dan_7:17 "As for these huge beasts, because they are four, there are four kings that will stand up from the earth."

Rev_17:10 "And there are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while."

Now if you look above at the seven secular world kingdoms you will see that in Daniel's time he was living in the third world empire or kingdom. So there would be four empires or kings to come. Also, you will see that in John's time of writing the book of Revelation, he was living in the sixth world empire or kingdom. So five kings had fallen, one king was current, and the last king was yet to arrive. Lastly, Zechariah tells of four horns that disperse Judah as well. Zechariah's time was like Daniel's during the Babylon empire, so the four horns represent the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th, world empires. Not the 7th world empire as it does not disperse Judah or Israel, it reunites it under a UN charter and fulfilling an important prophesy in 1948.
see Dan_9:25

Reference Daniel Ch.7 & 9, Rev. Ch.12, 13 & 17, Zec. Ch.1

Guess this is all I can say as this thread pertains to the Seven Heads of the Scarlet-Colored Wild Beast!
Sorry if I included any non-relevant info to this thread!

Also, I know many of you patriot's to our nation may take some offense to my interpretation of scripture.
But just remember, a true Christian allies himself with God & the heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one created by man. Will we need worldly governments under Christ rule?

Later

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 01:58 PM
So then when did God pour out his wrath by the trumpets and vials on babylon? which would also mean that the end has already passed.

Rev 14:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 18:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.


The wrath of God is not announced to begin till the 7th trumpet - which will then later be followed by the seven vials full of the wrath of God on Babylon and those that followed her wicked ways.

The first part of the trumpets are against the land of Israel.
punishments that come less than in full
a time of correction
then God will have mercy later on Israel and show His face at the 6th seal time

The vials of God's wrath will soon follow for 45 days!
on Babylon's crowd

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2008, 01:59 PM
Take Rev. 18:3 and compare that to what took place in Jeremiah 25:15.

Babylon made the nations drink.
Once they get done drinking of her wrath - it will turn to Babylon's time to drink and be punished.

Stefen
Jan 25th 2008, 02:18 PM
Shalom,

Revelation 17 is key to unlocking much concerning the end of days and understanding the great mystery of the little horn.

The 7 are seven kingdoms which have existed over history. And the 8th, is one of he 7 revived. But no, it is not Rome.

The 10 horns are not yet. They exist yes. But they will have no part until the middle of the 70th week.

This 8th is the same as the 'beast with the deadly wound, of Rev. 13. And it is one which has recently risen from the sea, the sea of the nations.

But one will also come soon, the 'beast out of the earth', who arises from a 'land restored'.

2witnesses http://www.habagministry.com (http://www.habagministry.com/)

Hello, I would be very grateful for you to tell me more about your understanding of Rev 17. I don't believe Rome is the 8th either.

4IMUNURME
Jan 25th 2008, 03:45 PM
Just read this:
Hello, I would be very grateful for you to tell me more about your understanding of Rev 17. I don't believe Rome is the 8th either.

and

This 8th is the same as the 'beast with the deadly wound, of Rev. 13. And it is one which has recently risen from the sea, the sea of the nations.

Regarding this deadly wound or death stroke that heals.
American Revolution! or the Civil War! are the only modern events that happened in that magnatude to a world power or kingdom. Both these events involved the U.S.

Also, Rome is in no way the 7th or 8th kingdom in secular history, let alone, it says that this kingdom will go about ruining the entire inhabited world. Well the U.S. started by inventing the light bulb etc., and from the model T ford to an atomic bomb took only about fourty (40) years. We created the industrial revolution, electricity, the auto, and the bomb, and we used it too, on civilian citys. What other country in the world has walked on the moon. The U.S. is by far the greatest nation ever to be upon the earth, but its not ruled by God, but Satan. After all does the bible not say that the original serpent gave its power and authority to the Scarlet colored wild beast that has the seven heads and ten horns.

I love the people of our homeland, especially the christian ones, but I hate the deeds our rulers commit in our name!

I assume few of you posting to this thread feel as I do, but I have studied scripture for twenty-two years and I still dont have a complete picture! And thats why I am here, hoping to find those missing pieces that complete the puzzle!

Later

Kahtar
Jan 25th 2008, 04:04 PM
You guys are kinda hard to follow. It might be easier for us all to understand if you would each make a post that clearly lays out your thoughts on the whole thing. And, remember, this thread is primarily about the seven heads.
I'll be gone most of today. Ya'll try to behave while I'm gone, okay?:lol:

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2008, 04:13 PM
The beast /little horn king is not coming again from a woman - as he will come up out of the earth -the bottomless pit.
Nebuchadnezzar is the yoke that has yet to be broken off of the necks of the nations.

Seems he comes in his prepared for the lake of fire body.

John was told - five kings are fallen
\ the beast was and is not

That makes the beast a long ago dead one of five fallen kings that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and is already judged to end up in perdition.

The beast and the false prophet are here, alive at Christs return, this is future not past.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The beasts of Revelation 13 are yet to come.

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2008, 04:25 PM
The wrath of God is not announced to begin till the 7th trumpet - which will then later be followed by the seven vials full of the wrath of God on Babylon and those that followed her wicked ways.

The first part of the trumpets are against the land of Israel.
punishments that come less than in full
a time of correction
then God will have mercy later on Israel and show His face at the 6th seal time

The vials of God's wrath will soon follow for 45 days!
on Babylon's crowd

Gods wrath is poured out on both the earth and upon mankind from the first trumpet and continues until the seventh trumpet when Christ returns.

Rev 7:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 8:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Rev 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

This is Gods wrath, including the other trumpets.

Kahtar
Jan 25th 2008, 04:31 PM
Trumpets? The seven heads are now the seven trumpets? I'm not following. What do the trumpets have to do with identity of the seven heads?

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2008, 04:52 PM
Trumpets? The seven heads are now the seven trumpets? I'm not following. What do the trumpets have to do with identity of the seven heads?

It began from the following statement concerning Babylon.

Originally Posted by vinsight4u8 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1513087#post1513087)
Psalm 79 shows that Israel then requested that God punish Babylon sevenfold.


It was then asked if this had already happened.

So then when did God pour out his wrath by the trumpets and vials on babylon? which would also mean that the end has already passed.

2Witnesses
Jan 25th 2008, 10:18 PM
Hello, I would be very grateful for you to tell me more about your understanding of Rev 17. I don't believe Rome is the 8th either.

Stefen,

To expand on Rev 17, I have to go to Daniel 2. In Dan 2 there is a general frame given for the progress of nations. We are in the days of the 10 toes. Our world, the world of 'united nations', (led by the US), is partly strong and partly weak. It is the 7th head.

But this 'world order' will change soon. And out of the re-ordering, Anti-Christ will rise in Israel. He is the head of the 8th kingdom. The 8th is reborn Israel, its 'deadly wound' of 70 AD is 'healed' through the UN as of 1948.

To begin to receive this you must understand I speak of the 'leadership' in Israel, and not all the people.

This present Jewish State is NOT a fulfillment of the prophets regarding the In-Gathering. This happens only at Messiah's return.

Christians must get their minds off 'National Israel'. God is concerned with the 'remnant'. And we are, as Cyrus, to restore them to God. This is the true 'aliyah'.

2witnesses

vinsight4u8
Jan 26th 2008, 03:03 PM
Rev. 13 is a story about seven kings that have died before the ten horns rise to power. Not a single one of the heads is shown to wear a crown or have a kingdom then. The story takes us to the time of when one of the dead named heads returns out of the earth to regain his kingdom area again; the false prophet will be his helper as the second beast to come up out of the earth.


Why are the heads shown with names?
Because they ruled in the past, died, and were named for their sin - blasphemy.
Example:
Nebuchadnezzar II at the holy site where the name of God is located forever.

ravi4u2
Jan 26th 2008, 06:15 PM
vv. 9 - seven heads are seven mountains (hills). Rome is a city founded on seven hills. The anti-christ will be based in Europe with Italy being his center of power. For a season, the harlot will have control over the beast. Sitting on his head.

vv.10, 11 - There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. Nero was the sixth Caesar of Rome. The first five were Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius. There will be a seventh person, who will rule the world for a short season and the Beast will be the eighth and will probably be the son of the 7th. The seventh will most probably be a leader of the European Union.

vv.12, 13 - is probably indicative of the ten founders of the European Union - Belgium, Ireland, Denmark, France, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, Italy. For one hour they will be kings and will abdicate their authority to the Beast. Read vv. 17.

John146
Jan 26th 2008, 08:55 PM
vv. 9 - seven heads are seven mountains (hills). Rome is a city founded on seven hills. The anti-christ will be based in Europe with Italy being his center of power. For a season, the harlot will have control over the beast. Sitting on his head.

vv.10, 11 - There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. Nero was the sixth Caesar of Rome. The first five were Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius. There will be a seventh person, who will rule the world for a short season and the Beast will be the eighth and will probably be the son of the 7th. The seventh will most probably be a leader of the European Union.

vv.12, 13 - is probably indicative of the ten founders of the European Union - Belgium, Ireland, Denmark, France, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, Italy. For one hour they will be kings and will abdicate their authority to the Beast. Read vv. 17.

The seven mountains are seven hills? I disagree. I believe there is no reason at all to take the word "mountains" literally. Why? Because we see in Revelation 17 that the woman sits on "many waters"(Rev 17:1). But it's not speaking of literal water. The many waters are symbolic for "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.". The woman not only sits upon many waters but also upon seven mountains. Since the many waters is not speaking of literal waters, why would the mountains be literal? We actually get a very strong hint at what the mountains represent in Rev 17:10 because it says there are seven kings. This tells me that the mountains represent kingdoms. Since the woman sits upon or rules over "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" and "the kings of the earth" (Rev 17:15), then they must be world kingdoms. Because of that, I disagree that the seven kings, or at least the first six as you are claiming, are all Roman kings.

ravi4u2
Jan 27th 2008, 02:05 AM
The seven mountains are seven hills? I disagree. I believe there is no reason at all to take the word "mountains" literally. Why? Because we see in Revelation 17 that the woman sits on "many waters"(Rev 17:1). But it's not speaking of literal water. The many waters are symbolic for "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.". The woman not only sits upon many waters but also upon seven mountains. Since the many waters is not speaking of literal waters, why would the mountains be literal? We actually get a very strong hint at what the mountains represent in Rev 17:10 because it says there are seven kings. This tells me that the mountains represent kingdoms. Since the woman sits upon or rules over "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" and "the kings of the earth" (Rev 17:15), then they must be world kingdoms. Because of that, I disagree that the seven kings, or at least the first six as you are claiming, are all Roman kings.You are entitled to your opinion. We don't have to interpret vv. 1 as the interpretation is given in vv. 8, "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" john knew the 5 who has fallen. His audience knew who he was indicating. Hence, the five Roman emperors. The greek word for mountain used there is 'oros', which can be used for hills as well.

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2008, 11:05 AM
We can all speculate on the seven heads, but with regards to the following scripture, if we do not yet know the beast, how can we therefore know the details except for the things that we know the beast shall do?

2 Thess 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The beast shall not be destroyed until Christ returns.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Cyberseeker
Jan 27th 2008, 04:56 PM
Cyber, can you list those 10 kingdoms you're talking about? I'd like to look into that a bit.


Sorry it took me so long.

The 10 kingdoms listed here: (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=113301) (see post #20)

Understanding the true nature of these 10 'horns' can clear up a lot of confusion about the overall '7 heads' prophecy.

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2008, 09:43 AM
Sorry it took me so long.

The 10 kingdoms listed here: (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=113301) (see post #20)

Understanding the true nature of these 10 'horns' can clear up a lot of confusion about the overall '7 heads' prophecy.

Since you have listed the ten kingdoms, you must therefore know who the beast is and must also know, as it is written that he only has reign over the saints for 42 months/three and half years, and then the second beast comes,ect.

If those kingdoms no longer stand and Christ has not yet returned to destroy the kingdom of the beast and the false prophet, then we may need to look to the future for those things that agree with that which is written which must be fulfilled.

John146
Jan 28th 2008, 04:19 PM
You are entitled to your opinion. We don't have to interpret vv. 1 as the interpretation is given in vv. 8, "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" john knew the 5 who has fallen. His audience knew who he was indicating. Hence, the five Roman emperors.

Why couldn't his audience know about the five fallen world empires? Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion as well, of course.



The greek word for mountain used there is 'oros', which can be used for hills as well.

I didn't mean to imply that the word couldn't be interpreted as "hills". I was just saying that it does not have to be interpreted as literal physical mountains or hills (or whatever you want to call 'oros' in English).

ravi4u2
Jan 29th 2008, 04:02 AM
I didn't mean to imply that the word couldn't be interpreted as "hills". I was just saying that it does not have to be interpreted as literal physical mountains or hills (or whatever you want to call 'oros' in English).It has to be literal hills as in vv. 9, the Angel was interpreting the meaning of the seven heads and say that they are the seven hills. The Angel would not interpret a symbol by giving another symbolic interpretation.

Kahtar
Jan 29th 2008, 05:29 AM
It has to be literal hills as in vv. 9, the Angel was interpreting the meaning of the seven heads and say that they are the seven hills. The Angel would not interpret a symbol by giving another symbolic interpretation.The angel identified them as mountains, not hills. Mountains are often used in propheciy to describe kingdoms.
Why wouldn't the angel interpret a symbol using another symbol? Who established that rule?

ross3421
Jan 29th 2008, 07:39 AM
You guys are barking up the wrong tree......

To understand what the 7 heads represent when need to understand that Satan will usher in a final kingdom upon the earth to likened unto the kingdom of God. He claims to be God thus would not his city and government be likened unto the same?

So what does the "seven" in God's kingdom represent? 7 churches which have 7 angels over them. Likewise the 7 heads and 7 mountains represent the same in Satan's kingdom.

Look at all the other parrallels..... beasts, horns, the description of the city, wounded head ect......

Is this making sense to anyone out there?



Mark.

ravi4u2
Jan 29th 2008, 04:31 PM
The angel identified them as mountains, not hills. Mountains are often used in propheciy to describe kingdoms.That is the problem right there. You want the word to say what you want it to say, instead of allowing it to speak plainly. I merely pointed out that the Greek word for mountain used there is 'oros', which can be used for hills as well. A good example is Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill (oros) cannot be hidden."


Why wouldn't the angel interpret a symbol using another symbol? Who established that rule?Is there any other instance where this has happened?

Kahtar
Jan 29th 2008, 05:14 PM
That is the problem right there. You want the word to say what you want it to say, instead of allowing it to speak plainly.Well, no, but thank you for that judgment. Fact is, scripture interprets itself. All through prophetic scripture, kingdoms are referred to as mountains.
You see, I could say the same about you wanting it to say what you want, by making it mean the seven hills of Rome. And the fact is, it could, possibly, be referring to that, but I don't think so. Especially since it goes on to talk about those seven kings in relation to the seven mountains.

ravi4u2
Jan 29th 2008, 08:19 PM
Well, no, but thank you for that judgment. Fact is, scripture interprets itself. All through prophetic scripture, kingdoms are referred to as mountains.
You see, I could say the same about you wanting it to say what you want, by making it mean the seven hills of Rome. And the fact is, it could, possibly, be referring to that, but I don't think so. Especially since it goes on to talk about those seven kings in relation to the seven mountains.No judement there...sorry if you misunderstood my post...As I often say, "you ae entitled to your opinion...But it is a sweeping generalization to say, "All through prophetic scripture, kingdoms are referred to as mountains". As I had earlier pointed out, the word 'mountain' there can also mean 'hill'. Unless there is anything else constructive to be said, I will rest here.

John146
Jan 29th 2008, 09:49 PM
It has to be literal hills as in vv. 9, the Angel was interpreting the meaning of the seven heads and say that they are the seven hills. The Angel would not interpret a symbol by giving another symbolic interpretation.

I'm not following you. I'm saying that the mountains or hills (depending on which you believe is the accurate English translation) symbolically represent kingdoms or world empires. I don't know how you can say that it HAS to be literal hills. Let's say we somehow knew that it should be translated from the Greek as "hills" and not "mountains". I would still say that "hills" could potentially symbolically represent something else like kingdoms. My argument wouldn't be as strong, since I'm not sure if "hills" symbolically refer to kingdoms elsewhere in Scripture, but I know that mountains do. Regardless, I don't see any evidence that it must be referring to literal hills and can't be anything else. I don't even see your evidence that it should be translated as "hills" rather than "mountains".

danield
Jan 29th 2008, 11:42 PM
Would it not be neat if Prophesy was fulfilled very close to being literal or exactly like it says? For example, those seven hills were indeed 7 hills or mountains. And those 7 kings were indeed 7 rulers of a powerful country. It would really be awesome that revelations turned out to not have to take so many things symbolically. I just think our lord is powerful enough to make things happen just as it says with out having to twist interpretation beyond recognition which could create doubt about what has happened. But this is just my opinion.

Originally posted by Vinsight4u8
Why would U.S. presidents be tied to Rev. 12? The seven heads here are the same as in Rev. 13 and are linked up with the dragon/devil. Rev. 12 is an account of how the holy site (the earthly throne) that will rule all nations is to be fought over. The Manchild was caught up to heaven to one day rule all of the nations on the earth, but the devil also wants to do that.

So - the holy site is fought over.

the dragon has - fallen angels
seven wicked kings (of which one of the earliest kings of that bunch will return)

I believe the 7 kings are not under the thumb of the 8th king until something drastic happens to change things globally. I do not think that they will willfully give their kingdom to the 8th king. I do think the 8th king will appoint 10 rulers over the land of the 7 kings and those 10 kings will hate the people of that land and will strip her of her wealth as stated clearly in scripture. I also feel that Rev 12 description of the beast is a description of the beast after all is clear. So John uses the image of the finalized version of the beast instead of a partial.

Originally posted by Vinsight4u8

When you see all these things - that is when we are to know that we are the last generation. Okay, what things will we see?
not the wars and rumours of wars part
as that is - the still be not troubled time

The beginning of sorrows is for the last generation. The time of nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom.
these are the beginning of sorrows

I see as a warning to watch for World War III. It is not the last war - not even the time yet of the man of sin, but is Daniel's 11:14-19 prophecy.
the king of the north - Iraq
against Israel

there shall be no strength to withstand


Also Revelation covers much time (past, present (day of John) and future clear to the end times -the new heaven and earth.

I disagree. I feel that Revelation covers the time period of the last generation and tied to events in Matthew 24/25, and I feel that the two descriptions are intertwined. I do think the new heaven extends beyond the generation but it is a guide for us to see what we have to look forward to. But the major events that happen to bring all this to pass are confined to one generation.

ravi4u2
Jan 29th 2008, 11:52 PM
I'm not following you. I'm saying that the mountains or hills (depending on which you believe is the accurate English translation) symbolically represent kingdoms or world empires. I don't know how you can say that it HAS to be literal hills. Let's say we somehow knew that it should be translated from the Greek as "hills" and not "mountains". I would still say that "hills" could potentially symbolically represent something else like kingdoms. My argument wouldn't be as strong, since I'm not sure if "hills" symbolically refer to kingdoms elsewhere in Scripture, but I know that mountains do. Regardless, I don't see any evidence that it must be referring to literal hills and can't be anything else. I don't even see your evidence that it should be translated as "hills" rather than "mountains".I have answered this question in #91 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1518302&postcount=91).

vinsight4u8
Jan 31st 2008, 01:55 PM
Who are the seven heads in Rev. 12 with crowns?
/and the ten horns without crowns yet?

Are these the same dudes in Rev. 13?
How come the heads here are not shown wearing crowns any longer?

Something to think about?

The heads are done wearing their crowns and instead by that time have earned their sin name.
blasphemy