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Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2008, 12:09 PM
With regards to Christs statement that his kingdom is not of this world, why can we not accept what he has told us, according to the following?

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

Dan 2:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Heb 11:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For he looked For a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

third hero
Jan 21st 2008, 01:18 PM
Understand this:

Jesus's Kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven. This kingdom is not of this world.

The Kingdom that ruls this earth is not the Kingdom of Heven, for Satan still rules over the minds and hearts of men. Also, Paul calls him the "god of this world". Mind you, that was written after Penticost.

Jesus is coming back, and His Kingdom is coming with Him. Satan's kingdom will fall, and the Lord will set up His Kingdom here on earth, as both the OT and NT proclaims. When this is done, the Beast will be burning in eternal torment, the false prophet will join him, and the god of this world will be sealed off far away from the planet that he has ruled for so long.

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 01:22 PM
Copied from http://www.trueheartofchrist.org

Luke 4:43 But Jesus said to them, "I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns too, for that is what I was sent to do."

Luke 9:2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Luke 9:60 But Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

What is the kingdom of God, if this was the good news Jesus was proclaiming why do we never hear about this in church, where is the kingdom of God? It is amazing that the bible does not tell us what it is, where it is. If this is part of the good news that Jesus proclaimed how come the bible fleetingly refers to it?

That is a mystery, it would be great if one of the bible writers had written one of the books devoted exclusively to it, but I guess thats part of Gods mystery, some things He only shows to those that diligently seek it.
Maybe we've always had it wrong in church, maybe we should be proclaiming the Kingdom of God. A sermon about the Kingdom of God has got to be more effective then 'God loves you' every week. Jesus told them what they are working for which builds faith, 'God loves you' is hard to see when the bills aren't paid.

I wonder how people could have possibly done bible studies before computers. Computers are amazing devices and by typing a few keys we can find out a huge amount about the kingdom of God. Here are some verses:

Luk 6:20 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God belongs to you.


Luk 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he is.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were in force until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urged to enter it.

From the verses listed above we find that everybody is urged to enter it, it belongs to the poor and the least in the kingdom is greater than any person born of a woman. The bible does not contain a lot of information about what it is, it is left up to our own imagination I suppose.

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called for the children, saying, "Let the little children come to me and do not try to stop them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these".


Luk 18:25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God".

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.


I could keep adding verses here and going on and on but I think you get the point. Traditional christianity teaches that good people go to heaven but Jesus says believers inherit the kingdom of God. To me the greatest mystery of all is how did christianity come up with this heaven/hell theme?
To be a christian, to be a follower of Christ means we are striving to enter the Kingdom of God. To understand the book of Revelations you must first understand what the kingdom of God is because Revelations is all about the kingdom of God. Jesus was the first promise, the Kingdom of God is the second promise.

Revelations is the last book of the bible. It is the last opportunity to fulfill all things left to fulfill. The bible is a complete work. Revelations must be about the Kingdom of God.

Luk 17:20 Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed"

Luk 21:31 So also you, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

Luk 23:51 (He had not consented to their plan and action.) He was from the Judean town of Arimathea, and was looking forward to the kingdom of God.

And from these verses we learn that the kingdom of God is in the future of the time these words were spoken. When we see some signs occurring we will know the Kingdom is very near but we won't actually see the Kingdom established.

Luk 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.

It must be a physical place because Jesus will drink of the fruit of the vine in it.

Rev 5:9 They were singing a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were killed, and at the cost of your own blood you have purchased for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation. You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Revelations 5:9 says that believers are the kingdom and priests and they will reign with Christ on the earth. Yes it is a physical place.
I've only included a short summary of those verses explaining what the kingdom is, where it is and when it will come because many christians already know that the kingdom of God Christ referred to is to be here on earth. Some christian denominations still teach of a heaven/hell so this summary is for them. The bible says little about heaven except that no man has ever ascended there.

Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves thrown out.


Luk 13:29 Then people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and take their places at the banquet table in the kingdom of God.

For me this was the part that was really surprising. If there is a real literal Kingdom of God and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be there they too must also be literal, the banquet feast is also literal. WOW! This changes everything.

Parables aren't randomly picked for some moral issue, these are things that will really happen in a real world! All the puzzles pieces start falling into place. Read the parables in relation to the kingdom of God. We all know Gods word, if one parable has a literal fulfillment, they all do. So what does this say about a book like Revelations, is it possible that all the visions have a literal fulfillment? If even a simple parable has a literal fulfillment then we know not a single word is wasted.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you most certainly, there are some standing here who will not experience death before they see the kingdom of God.

For some peoples interpretation this has always been a hard verse but now it fits right in. To me the verse above says some christian pretenders will get to see the kingdom of God. Though I'm getting a little ahead of myself God holds these souls, whereever we go after death, until we are resurrected into the real literal kingdom of God. What use to be hard to understand now snaps into place.

Now this is where it gets weird and all preconceived concepts went out the window for me. When Jesus compared the kingdom to a mustard seed I was always lost, I had no clue how a mustard seed could relate to the kingdom of God.

Luk 13:18 Thus Jesus asked,"What is the kingdom of God like? To what should I compare it? It is like a mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the wild birds nested in its branches." Again he said, "To what should I compare the kingdom of God? It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed with three measures of flour until all the dough had risen."

When the kingdom of God comes it will start as a mustard seed, the smallest of the seeds and grow. Now most theologians will say that this started with Jesus and has been growing over the last 2000 years and this is true but the physical kingdom will not appear suddenly with millions of bible thumping believers. So Gods kingdom will not cover the entire world when it comes. It will start small and grow. Zec 4:10 For who dares make light of small beginnings? ...

No word, regardless of time, can ever be a lie. The kingdom MUST start small.

Luk 19:11 While the people were listening to these things, Jesus proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately.

Though Luke 19:11 requires a little more theological discussion then I intend to place here, no word of the bible will ever be proven to be incorrect, regardless of time, so this verse supports that the kingdom of God will not immediately appear with millions of resurrected people.
Now there are times when Jesus states the kingdom of God is in your midst, has overtaken you, etc but a true christian should be able to reconcile how things can be both present and future to God. God has already willed it to be completed so it is finished, now it just has to come to pass in human terms.

The final question is when is the kingdom of God going to start on the earth and this question is answered in Revelations.

Revelations 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,and he will reign for ever and ever."

This is as far as I can go here with the Kingdom of God. But know that it is a literal kingdom, here on earth. Christ will reign and believers will reign with Him. The kingdom will start small and grow. And finally, the kingdom will start at the blow of the seventh trumpet.
One thing I think I need to stress here, if you believe the bible needs to be 'interpreted' and the words don't mean what they say then you'll never get it. There's no sense in you even reading the bible because you're just fooling yourself. Anybody who 'interprets' the words to have some deep theological meaning but doesn't read the actual words is blowing air out his backside. I'm trying to be nice about this but there is really no way to be nice when the Word is the most important part of the bible and you skip over the words and give it some other meaning.

Heb 12:28 So since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us give thanks, and through this let us offer worship pleasing to God in devotion and awe.

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2008, 01:33 PM
Understand this:

Jesus's Kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven. This kingdom is not of this world.

The Kingdom that ruls this earth is not the Kingdom of Heven, for Satan still rules over the minds and hearts of men. Also, Paul calls him the "god of this world". Mind you, that was written after Penticost.

Jesus is coming back, and His Kingdom is coming with Him. Satan's kingdom will fall, and the Lord will set up His Kingdom here on earth, as both the OT and NT proclaims. When this is done, the Beast will be burning in eternal torment, the false prophet will join him, and the god of this world will be sealed off far away from the planet that he has ruled for so long.

Knowing that Jesus returns from heaven and as you have said his kingdom is coming with him would that therefore be the new Jerusalem?

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2008, 01:43 PM
Copied from http://www.trueheartofchrist.org

Luke 4:43 But Jesus said to them, "I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns too, for that is what I was sent to do."

Luke 9:2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Luke 9:60 But Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

What is the kingdom of God, if this was the good news Jesus was proclaiming why do we never hear about this in church, where is the kingdom of God? It is amazing that the bible does not tell us what it is, where it is. If this is part of the good news that Jesus proclaimed how come the bible fleetingly refers to it?

That is a mystery, it would be great if one of the bible writers had written one of the books devoted exclusively to it, but I guess thats part of Gods mystery, some things He only shows to those that diligently seek it.
Maybe we've always had it wrong in church, maybe we should be proclaiming the Kingdom of God. A sermon about the Kingdom of God has got to be more effective then 'God loves you' every week. Jesus told them what they are working for which builds faith, 'God loves you' is hard to see when the bills aren't paid.

I wonder how people could have possibly done bible studies before computers. Computers are amazing devices and by typing a few keys we can find out a huge amount about the kingdom of God. Here are some verses:

Luk 6:20 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God belongs to you.


Luk 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he is.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were in force until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urged to enter it.

From the verses listed above we find that everybody is urged to enter it, it belongs to the poor and the least in the kingdom is greater than any person born of a woman. The bible does not contain a lot of information about what it is, it is left up to our own imagination I suppose.

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called for the children, saying, "Let the little children come to me and do not try to stop them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these".


Luk 18:25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God".

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.


I could keep adding verses here and going on and on but I think you get the point. Traditional christianity teaches that good people go to heaven but Jesus says believers inherit the kingdom of God. To me the greatest mystery of all is how did christianity come up with this heaven/hell theme?
To be a christian, to be a follower of Christ means we are striving to enter the Kingdom of God. To understand the book of Revelations you must first understand what the kingdom of God is because Revelations is all about the kingdom of God. Jesus was the first promise, the Kingdom of God is the second promise.

Revelations is the last book of the bible. It is the last opportunity to fulfill all things left to fulfill. The bible is a complete work. Revelations must be about the Kingdom of God.

Luk 17:20 Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed"

Luk 21:31 So also you, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

Luk 23:51 (He had not consented to their plan and action.) He was from the Judean town of Arimathea, and was looking forward to the kingdom of God.

And from these verses we learn that the kingdom of God is in the future of the time these words were spoken. When we see some signs occurring we will know the Kingdom is very near but we won't actually see the Kingdom established.

Luk 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.

It must be a physical place because Jesus will drink of the fruit of the vine in it.

Rev 5:9 They were singing a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were killed, and at the cost of your own blood you have purchased for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation. You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Revelations 5:9 says that believers are the kingdom and priests and they will reign with Christ on the earth. Yes it is a physical place.
I've only included a short summary of those verses explaining what the kingdom is, where it is and when it will come because many christians already know that the kingdom of God Christ referred to is to be here on earth. Some christian denominations still teach of a heaven/hell so this summary is for them. The bible says little about heaven except that no man has ever ascended there.

Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves thrown out.


Luk 13:29 Then people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and take their places at the banquet table in the kingdom of God.

For me this was the part that was really surprising. If there is a real literal Kingdom of God and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be there they too must also be literal, the banquet feast is also literal. WOW! This changes everything.

Parables aren't randomly picked for some moral issue, these are things that will really happen in a real world! All the puzzles pieces start falling into place. Read the parables in relation to the kingdom of God. We all know Gods word, if one parable has a literal fulfillment, they all do. So what does this say about a book like Revelations, is it possible that all the visions have a literal fulfillment? If even a simple parable has a literal fulfillment then we know not a single word is wasted.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you most certainly, there are some standing here who will not experience death before they see the kingdom of God.

For some peoples interpretation this has always been a hard verse but now it fits right in. To me the verse above says some christian pretenders will get to see the kingdom of God. Though I'm getting a little ahead of myself God holds these souls, whereever we go after death, until we are resurrected into the real literal kingdom of God. What use to be hard to understand now snaps into place.

Now this is where it gets weird and all preconceived concepts went out the window for me. When Jesus compared the kingdom to a mustard seed I was always lost, I had no clue how a mustard seed could relate to the kingdom of God.

Luk 13:18 Thus Jesus asked,"What is the kingdom of God like? To what should I compare it? It is like a mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the wild birds nested in its branches." Again he said, "To what should I compare the kingdom of God? It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed with three measures of flour until all the dough had risen."

When the kingdom of God comes it will start as a mustard seed, the smallest of the seeds and grow. Now most theologians will say that this started with Jesus and has been growing over the last 2000 years and this is true but the physical kingdom will not appear suddenly with millions of bible thumping believers. So Gods kingdom will not cover the entire world when it comes. It will start small and grow. Zec 4:10 For who dares make light of small beginnings? ...

No word, regardless of time, can ever be a lie. The kingdom MUST start small.

Luk 19:11 While the people were listening to these things, Jesus proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately.

Though Luke 19:11 requires a little more theological discussion then I intend to place here, no word of the bible will ever be proven to be incorrect, regardless of time, so this verse supports that the kingdom of God will not immediately appear with millions of resurrected people.
Now there are times when Jesus states the kingdom of God is in your midst, has overtaken you, etc but a true christian should be able to reconcile how things can be both present and future to God. God has already willed it to be completed so it is finished, now it just has to come to pass in human terms.

The final question is when is the kingdom of God going to start on the earth and this question is answered in Revelations.

Revelations 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,and he will reign for ever and ever."

This is as far as I can go here with the Kingdom of God. But know that it is a literal kingdom, here on earth. Christ will reign and believers will reign with Him. The kingdom will start small and grow. And finally, the kingdom will start at the blow of the seventh trumpet.
One thing I think I need to stress here, if you believe the bible needs to be 'interpreted' and the words don't mean what they say then you'll never get it. There's no sense in you even reading the bible because you're just fooling yourself. Anybody who 'interprets' the words to have some deep theological meaning but doesn't read the actual words is blowing air out his backside. I'm trying to be nice about this but there is really no way to be nice when the Word is the most important part of the bible and you skip over the words and give it some other meaning.

Heb 12:28 So since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us give thanks, and through this let us offer worship pleasing to God in devotion and awe.

As you have said Revelation as well as other scriptures tell us that Christ was talking about the new Jerusalem, since it was Christ that was speaking to the Apostles concerning the kingdom of God. It is this promise that we are waitng for when all is fulfilled.

Rev 22:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

This is the testimony of Christ.

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 02:24 PM
I am beginning to think today most churches/denominations are falling into the same trap as the Pharisees and Sadducees where they forced all prophecy into one 'Messiah'

The bible is the 'completed work of God' which shows us all things. Today, we can see where the Pharisees and Sadducess were wrong and many places how/why they were wrong.

People, from what I've read seem to be forcing all prophecy into one time period, and since people have always been wrong in the past, I am beginning to think they are wrong again.

God gave people the book of Revelations and people have used their wisdom on it but God tells us what He does with mans wisdom.

I am now leaning very far to Revelations being in its most simpliest form, if God gave us the book, He gave it to us for a reason and that reason must be so that we could know what will occur. God is infinity smarter than us so Revelations must be in its most simpliest form so that us fools can understand it. Only fools that believe every word of the bible will understand it.

Jesus MUST reign here on earth for one thousand years, that is what the bible says. Believers will reign with Him. A new heaven and a new earth can come 50,000 years from now and still fulfill prophecy. A new Jerusalem can come 50,000 after that and still fulfill prophecy.

Everybody says God will fulfill all prophecy soon. Everybody was wrong before.

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 02:33 PM
With regards to Christs statement that his kingdom is not of this world, why can we not accept what he has told us, according to the following?

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

Dan 2:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Heb 11:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For he looked For a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

I think John 3:16 is in reference to the coming of the New Kingdom of God, upon the destruction of the old heaven and earth.


Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Luke 21:33-36
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This world is still part of the Kingdom of God as it is now, which is why all nations currently serve our creator. Regardless, the Old Kingdom will be destroyed seeing as how sin is present within it, and the New Kingdom will be created by God with the absence of sin and death.

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2008, 02:38 PM
I am beginning to think today most churches/denominations are falling into the same trap as the Pharisees and Sadducees where they forced all prophecy into one 'Messiah'

The bible is the 'completed work of God' which shows us all things. Today, we can see where the Pharisees and Sadducess were wrong and many places how/why they were wrong.

People, from what I've read seem to be forcing all prophecy into one time period, and since people have always been wrong in the past, I am beginning to think they are wrong again.

God gave people the book of Revelations and people have used their wisdom on it but God tells us what He does with mans wisdom.

I am now leaning very far to Revelations being in its most simpliest form, if God gave us the book, He gave it to us for a reason and that reason must be so that we could know what will occur. God is infinity smarter than us so Revelations must be in its most simpliest form so that us fools can understand it. Only fools that believe every word of the bible will understand it.

Jesus MUST reign here on earth for one thousand years, that is what the bible says. Believers will reign with Him. A new heaven and a new earth can come 50,000 years from now and still fulfill prophecy. A new Jerusalem can come 50,000 after that and still fulfill prophecy.

Everybody says God will fulfill all prophecy soon. Everybody was wrong before.

Are you saying that Christs kingdom is on this earth, which is contrary to what he said?
Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2008, 02:40 PM
I think John 3:16 is in reference to the coming of the New Kingdom of God, upon the destruction of the old heaven and earth.


Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Luke 21:33-36
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This world is still part of the Kingdom of God as it is now, which is why all nations currently serve our creator. Regardless, the Old Kingdom will be destroyed seeing as how sin is present within it, and the New Kingdom will be created by God with the absence of sin and death.

You will find that not everyone believes that this earth will be destoyed, even though it is written.

third hero
Jan 21st 2008, 02:43 PM
I think those things are in reference to the coming of the New Kingdom of God, upon the destruction of the old heaven and earth.


Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Luke 21:33-36
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This world is still part of the Kingdom of God as it is now, which is why all nations currently serve our creator. Regardless, the Old Kingdom will be destroyed seeing as how sin is present within it, and the New Kingdom will be created by God with the absence of sin and death.

Great start, now I am going to finish this thought.

God has a promise to fulfill. Look at Psalm 2. This plainly states that the one called the Son of God has to rule this world.

According to Paul, the god of this world is Satan. This is going to change.

When Christ returns, according to Revelation 20, Satan is sealed away from this earth, and Christ rules this world for at least 1000 years, with the Tribulation saints with Him. According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:23-26, Jesus will have to rule this planet until every last enemy is defeated. The last being Death. Death can not defeated until every last sinful person whom God will have allowed to be born dies. This happens at the last day, when the wicked surround Jerusalem, the city which the Lord wil rule the world from, along with the Saints.

When God sends down fire and destroys the wicked, then the time will come for Judgment Day, where all creation is judged. When this happens , heaven, which is this universe, and the earth are destroyed. Again, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians and Peter in 2 Peter 3, Jesus hands this universe over to His Father for destruction on that day where all creation is judged.

My point?

New Jerusalem is the new universe, completely devoid of the "old System" which has sin written all over it. The Old things include God giving grace even though all creation is infected with sin. New Jerusalem, the city where God will reside with men, can not come to this earth, mainly because this earth is still infected with sin. It has to be destroyed first.

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 03:06 PM
Great start, now I am going to finish this thought.

God has a promise to fulfill. Look at Psalm 2. This plainly states that the one called the Son of God has to rule this world.

According to Paul, the god of this world is Satan. This is going to change.

When Christ returns, according to Revelation 20, Satan is sealed away from this earth, and Christ rules this world for at least 1000 years, with the Tribulation saints with Him. According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:23-26, Jesus will have to rule this planet until every last enemy is defeated. The last being Death. Death can not defeated until every last sinful person whom God will have allowed to be born dies. This happens at the last day, when the wicked surround Jerusalem, the city which the Lord wil rule the world from, along with the Saints.

When God sends down fire and destroys the wicked, then the time will come for Judgment Day, where all creation is judged. When this happens , heaven, which is this universe, and the earth are destroyed. Again, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians and Peter in 2 Peter 3, Jesus hands this universe over to His Father for destruction on that day where all creation is judged.

My point?

New Jerusalem is the new universe, completely devoid of the "old System" which has sin written all over it. The Old things include God giving grace even though all creation is infected with sin. New Jerusalem, the city where God will reside with men, can not come to this earth, mainly because this earth is still infected with sin. It has to be destroyed first.

I think in the 1000 year period now - as Christ's death/resurrection was suppossed signify the beginning of his reign over both heaven and earth. Ask yourself this question, how could we have authority over Satan through Christ's name right now, unless this world was already subjected to Christ's authority?

The Kingdom that you speak of I actually believe is in reference to the anti-christ kingdom. Jerusalem was destroyed for a reason, because we are now living stones of the new Kingdom being built by God. The recreation and rebuilding of the Kindom will be an abomination before almighty God, as it will signify something that he has commanded to never be rebuilt again. Why do you think that Jerusalem has been destroyed everytime someone has made an attempt to rebuld it? I believe the act of rebuilding the temple will cause the abomination which causes desolation referred to in Daniel.

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2008, 03:14 PM
Great start, now I am going to finish this thought.

God has a promise to fulfill. Look at Psalm 2. This plainly states that the one called the Son of God has to rule this world.

According to Paul, the god of this world is Satan. This is going to change.

When Christ returns, according to Revelation 20, Satan is sealed away from this earth, and Christ rules this world for at least 1000 years, with the Tribulation saints with Him. According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:23-26, Jesus will have to rule this planet until every last enemy is defeated. The last being Death. Death can not defeated until every last sinful person whom God will have allowed to be born dies. This happens at the last day, when the wicked surround Jerusalem, the city which the Lord wil rule the world from, along with the Saints.

When God sends down fire and destroys the wicked, then the time will come for Judgment Day, where all creation is judged. When this happens , heaven, which is this universe, and the earth are destroyed. Again, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians and Peter in 2 Peter 3, Jesus hands this universe over to His Father for destruction on that day where all creation is judged.

My point?

New Jerusalem is the new universe, completely devoid of the "old System" which has sin written all over it. The Old things include God giving grace even though all creation is infected with sin. New Jerusalem, the city where God will reside with men, can not come to this earth, mainly because this earth is still infected with sin. It has to be destroyed first.

With the understanding that the kingdom of the beast/antichrist is the holy place, and that the beasts kingdom last until The return of Christ when he is cast into the lake of fire, how can Christ rule from the same place, at the same time?

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2008, 03:30 PM
I think in the 1000 year period now - as Christ's death/resurrection was suppossed signify the beginning of his reign over both heaven and earth. Ask yourself this question, how could we have authority over Satan through Christ's name right now, unless this world was already subjected to Christ's authority?

The Kingdom that you speak of I actually believe is in reference to the anti-christ kingdom. Jerusalem was destroyed for a reason, because we are now living stones of the new Kingdom being built by God. The recreation and rebuilding of the Kindom will be an abomination before almighty God, as it will signify something that he has commanded to never be rebuilt again. Why do you think that Jerusalem has been destroyed everytime someone has made an attempt to rebuld it? I believe the act of rebuilding the temple will cause the abomination which causes desolation referred to in Daniel.

Who and where are the saints that reign with Christ during the 1000 years, that were killed during the reign of the beast /antichrist?

Christ has been gone for about a 2000 years now, so what 1000 years are you speaking of.

third hero
Jan 21st 2008, 03:54 PM
I think in the 1000 year period now - as Christ's death/resurrection was suppossed signify the beginning of his reign over both heaven and earth. Ask yourself this question, how could we have authority over Satan through Christ's name right now, unless this world was already subjected to Christ's authority?

The Kingdom that you speak of I actually believe is in reference to the anti-christ kingdom. Jerusalem was destroyed for a reason, because we are now living stones of the new Kingdom being built by God. The recreation and rebuilding of the Kindom will be an abomination before almighty God, as it will signify something that he has commanded to never be rebuilt again. Why do you think that Jerusalem has been destroyed everytime someone has made an attempt to rebuld it? I believe the act of rebuilding the temple will cause the abomination which causes desolation referred to in Daniel.

I actually explained this difficult subject in another thread, but I sense no ill intent in your question, and so I'll answer it again. Notice I said that this is difficult.

In Job, God had all of the angels assemble bnefore hIm, with Satan included. Remember, Satan did not get that name until after his fall. Therefore, this happened after Adam's fatal error. Now, God has total authority over Satan, correct? Even though God is in total control, Satan still had leeway, as the accuser. God brought up Job as a man without peer, an upright and blameless man. Satan accused him of being soft, saying things like "he is only like that because you protect him".

You see, Satan has control over the hearts of men, no thanks to Adam submitting himself, and us with him, to Satan. God still has authority over Satan, even though he is in the position that he is in.

It is the same with Lord Jesus. Jesus has the power and authority of the Father Himself. This means that the exact same abilities that God has on all of heaven and earth, Jesus has. This includes the ability to limit, and have authority over Satan, the god of this world. What does this mean?

This means that all who operate in the name of Lord Jesus has the same ability as Lord Jesus. This includes having authority and poweer over all of our enemies, spiritual ones that is. Satan can still operate in the minds and hearts of men who have not been freed by the Blood of the Lamb. Moreover, he can attack us by using these men, or by using demonic suggestion to bring us to our knees, which has been mostly successful up to this point, with all of us believers having at least one time when we were not strong enough to resist temptation to the end. Like Lord Jesus, we have power over the enemy, where every time we say the words, the enemy has to follow our instruction.

However, even though Jesus has the authority over the evil one, the evil one stil has power over mankind. It is only natural for the Lord to have a time limit for any of His creation to control other creatures that He created. All mankind was made for Him, by Him, and a time is going to come where Satan will lose the authority over mankind that Adam gave to him. Im short, Jesus, when He returns, takes it from him. You see, the Beast, the son of perdition is given Satan's authority. When CHrist returns, he defeats the beast, and takes the power that Satan had over mankind. At the same time, Satan is sealed away from mankind, because Jesus is going to start the process of ending this world. This includes the Lord ruling over all of mankind.. well.. at least what is left of mankind.


There are enemies that we do not know about, or at least we do not pay much attention to, that Jesus must first defeat, like sickness, addiction, and the afflictions of man. Mankind must learn to walk in the commandments of Lord Jesus, and Lord Jesus must rule over them as God promised David.

I hope this helps a little.

menJesus
Jan 21st 2008, 04:29 PM
I always thought that Jesus meant His kingdom does not have a seat of government on this earth, that He did not run His kingdom from such as Buckingham Palace for QE2, or the White House for George Bush, etc.

Now I don`t know what to think.

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 04:31 PM
Are you saying that Christs kingdom is on this earth, which is contrary to what he said?
Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

You can't take one verse and base an opinion on that, we must take the bible as a whole to see what His kingdom is.

A single belief cannot contradict what the bible says as a whole otherwise its a wrong belief.

When you put the word 'earth' in here you are forcing your own belief into what Jesus said. No bible translation translates 'world' as 'earth'. The bible as a whole, based on the words, say the physical kingdom of God is on the earth.

Believers have the kingdom of God in their heart while here on earth looking forward to the day He starts His reign. But that belief is based on the words and what they tell me.

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 04:40 PM
Who and where are the saints that reign with Christ during the 1000 years, that were killed during the reign of the beast /antichrist?

Christ has been gone for about a 2000 years now, so what 1000 years are you speaking of.

You know that's a good question. My only response to that would be the following verse:

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

I think the saints are reigning now, as they have been given authority by Christ over the world of evil. Remember what is stated in the following verse.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I believe the firsfruits, or those in the NT and OT(all of the diciples, etc) are currently with Christ in heaven, while those of us who are living are here reigning with him on earth. Revelations mentions during this 1000 year time men will be married and given in marriage, which would make sense to this particular time period existing right now, seeing as how after the resurrection, there will be no one married or given in marriage as per the Lord's testimony in Matthew 22:30.

I think many of those who have died in Christ as well as those who are still alive with him upon his return, will be taken away upon the rapture and before the great tribulation. There might be a few who remain here or who are left behind during the beginning antichrists kingdom, and I think they will be used as witnesses to testify of the coming milinnial battle as well as preaching a message of repentance to those who haven't accepted the mark of the beast. Many of those who are left behind and fighting against the anti-christ system, will be given the false impression by the powers that be that those truly representing the real God are members of the anti-christ kingdom, as oppossed to the other way around.

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 04:46 PM
I actually explained this difficult subject in another thread, but I sense no ill intent in your question, and so I'll answer it again. Notice I said that this is difficult.

In Job, God had all of the angels assemble bnefore hIm, with Satan included. Remember, Satan did not get that name until after his fall. Therefore, this happened after Adam's fatal error. Now, God has total authority over Satan, correct? Even though God is in total control, Satan still had leeway, as the accuser. God brought up Job as a man without peer, an upright and blameless man. Satan accused him of being soft, saying things like "he is only like that because you protect him".

You see, Satan has control over the hearts of men, no thanks to Adam submitting himself, and us with him, to Satan. God still has authority over Satan, even though he is in the position that he is in.

It is the same with Lord Jesus. Jesus has the power and authority of the Father Himself. This means that the exact same abilities that God has on all of heaven and earth, Jesus has. This includes the ability to limit, and have authority over Satan, the god of this world. What does this mean?

This means that all who operate in the name of Lord Jesus has the same ability as Lord Jesus. This includes having authority and poweer over all of our enemies, spiritual ones that is. Satan can still operate in the minds and hearts of men who have not been freed by the Blood of the Lamb. Moreover, he can attack us by using these men, or by using demonic suggestion to bring us to our knees, which has been mostly successful up to this point, with all of us believers having at least one time when we were not strong enough to resist temptation to the end. Like Lord Jesus, we have power over the enemy, where every time we say the words, the enemy has to follow our instruction.

However, even though Jesus has the authority over the evil one, the evil one stil has power over mankind. It is only natural for the Lord to have a time limit for any of His creation to control other creatures that He created. All mankind was made for Him, by Him, and a time is going to come where Satan will lose the authority over mankind that Adam gave to him. Im short, Jesus, when He returns, takes it from him. You see, the Beast, the son of perdition is given Satan's authority. When CHrist returns, he defeats the beast, and takes the power that Satan had over mankind. At the same time, Satan is sealed away from mankind, because Jesus is going to start the process of ending this world. This includes the Lord ruling over all of mankind.. well.. at least what is left of mankind.


There are enemies that we do not know about, or at least we do not pay much attention to, that Jesus must first defeat, like sickness, addiction, and the afflictions of man. Mankind must learn to walk in the commandments of Lord Jesus, and Lord Jesus must rule over them as God promised David.

I hope this helps a little.

Greater is he who is of me than he who is off the world. Christ's is the only authority at this point in time, as this authority was given to him by the Father. We are given authority by Christ over all of the evil powers that be, and once we have completed our God given mission in this life, we then give the authority that Christ has given us back to him - and Christ gives this authority back to the father, so that once again..God will be all and all.

Blessings,

Stephen

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2008, 04:46 PM
You can't take one verse and base an opinion on that, we must take the bible as a whole to see what His kingdom is.

A single belief cannot contradict what the bible says as a whole otherwise its a wrong belief.

When you put the word 'earth' in here you are forcing your own belief into what Jesus said. No bible translation translates 'world' as 'earth'. The bible as a whole, based on the words, say the physical kingdom of God is on the earth.

Believers have the kingdom of God in their heart while here on earth looking forward to the day He starts His reign. But that belief is based on the words and what they tell me.

Please note that these, according to the scriptures, are the words of Christ, so what do you think he meant?

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2008, 04:49 PM
Great start, now I am going to finish this thought.

God has a promise to fulfill. Look at Psalm 2. This plainly states that the one called the Son of God has to rule this world.

According to Paul, the god of this world is Satan. This is going to change.

When Christ returns, according to Revelation 20, Satan is sealed away from this earth, and Christ rules this world for at least 1000 years, with the Tribulation saints with Him. According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:23-26, Jesus will have to rule this planet until every last enemy is defeated. The last being Death. Death can not defeated until every last sinful person whom God will have allowed to be born dies. This happens at the last day, when the wicked surround Jerusalem, the city which the Lord wil rule the world from, along with the Saints.

When God sends down fire and destroys the wicked, then the time will come for Judgment Day, where all creation is judged. When this happens , heaven, which is this universe, and the earth are destroyed. Again, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians and Peter in 2 Peter 3, Jesus hands this universe over to His Father for destruction on that day where all creation is judged.

My point?

New Jerusalem is the new universe, completely devoid of the "old System" which has sin written all over it. The Old things include God giving grace even though all creation is infected with sin. New Jerusalem, the city where God will reside with men, can not come to this earth, mainly because this earth is still infected with sin. It has to be destroyed first.

can you answer this qustion please?

With the understanding that the kingdom of the beast/antichrist is the holy place, and that the beasts kingdom last until The return of Christ when he is cast into the lake of fire, how can Christ rule from the same place, at the same time?

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

ahealingman
Jan 21st 2008, 05:07 PM
Please note that these, according to the scriptures, are the words of Christ, so what do you think he meant?
I told you but you did not listen.

Though there are many, another translation:
"My kingdom," said Jesus, "doesn't consist of what you see around you. "

1 Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are Godís temple and that Godís Spirit lives in you?

Right now, until the physical kingdom comes,
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, they kingdom come, thy will be done.

the kingdom of God is in the hearts of believers

third hero
Jan 21st 2008, 05:24 PM
Ok, I think I understand the question.

For starters, read Daniel 7:10-22. This is where I get my answer from.

First, the Lord Jesus is given His authority from His Father. His Father did not disappear, as noted in Revelation several times, including right before the Lord returns, when the Holy Father goes into His Temple in heaven and brings forth the vials of His wrath.

In short, Jesus is not going to rule two places at the same time. God the Father is still Ruler of heaven and earth, and Jesus is operating under that authority. God will give Jesus the authority that the beast/Satan/false prophet operated under. And so Christ will have His own Kingdom, on earth, while being under the authority of His Father, the ruler of heaven and earth.

faithfulfriend
Jan 21st 2008, 05:47 PM
Mr 9:1 ∂ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The Kingdom of God has already been established. It is NOT going to be a literal kingdom on this Earth that will be established when Christ returns.

Clifton
Jan 21st 2008, 06:00 PM
Mr 9:1 ∂ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The Kingdom of God has already been established. It is NOT going to be a literal kingdom on this Earth that will be established when Christ returns.


Yep - it is here among and within - I noticed a post that quoted Luke 17:20 and John 3:5 but left out Luke 17:21 and John 3:3, which are also parts of the contexts.

The way we are taught in Greek, is that the Kingdom Of God/Heaven (Matthew mostly uses "Heaven") is at hand & among us - it is up to us to respond to it. Of course, Christ's Kingdom is not "of" this world of wickedness, but it is here and within us.

It has a wider range and meaning here on Earth - we are a part of that Kingdom - yes, of course, as for Eternity, it will be much better for us;).

BTW, the "come with power" in the verse you quote, "come" is in THE PERFECT TENSE - It has already taken place and has a continuing effect. Same for the "IT IS FINISHED!" saying of Christ on the Cross, which is up to us to respond to.

IBWatching
Jan 21st 2008, 06:06 PM
...Everybody says God will fulfill all prophecy soon. Everybody was wrong before.

What they were wrong about was believing that God wouldn't deal with Israel or the gentile nations in a literal manner. As Jesus was being led to trial and crucifixion, prophecy after prophecy from the OT was literally fulfilled before their eyes. Did they believe then? I don't hold out hope they will believe now.

John146
Jan 21st 2008, 06:15 PM
Mr 9:1 ∂ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The Kingdom of God has already been established. It is NOT going to be a literal kingdom on this Earth that will be established when Christ returns.

Exactly. And Christ has only one kingdom. When He comes again, He will deliver up His kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:23-24).

third hero
Jan 21st 2008, 06:42 PM
I think there is a little confusion here. What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

The Kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom ruled by God. This encompasess all of the heavens and all of the earth, and eeverything within it.

What is the kingdoms of the earth? These are the kingdoms of men.

Does God rule over the kingdoms of men? Yes.

But we now have a dilemma. Didn't Satan offer Christ the kingdoms of the earth, as though he had owned them? Yes, he did. Did Jesus call him a liar? No. Therefore, Satan has control of the kingdoms of the earth, even as God has control of all of the earth.

What does this mean? It means that mankind have two options.

1. Live as they are now, living under the influence of sin, which governs the affairs of men even to this day.

2. Reject Satan by bowing the knee to Lord Jesus and accepting the Gift He paid for with His life!

When I say that Christ will have the authority that Satan weilds now, I am saying that God the Father will give to him everything that Satan offered during His period of temptation. This is what Christ knew when Satan offered the kingdoms of the earth to Him. He knew that he would get all of the kingdoms of men anyway, if He but only follow after His Father, which He wisely done.

To say that God's kingdom has been established on earth is to say that Christ has returned nad set up shop somewhere here on this earth. No, God's kingdom is not established on earth right now. Hence the reason why as part of the Lord's prayer, we are to pray for His Kingdom to come. His Kingdom has arrived on earth, and He is presently giving invitations for all to come to His Kingdom, but He is doing uso under durest, since Satan is not willfully obliging the Lord's request. This is part of the reason why his authority that Adam gave him will be t aken from him, by Lord Jesus upon His return.

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 07:12 PM
I think there is a little confusion here. What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

The Kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom ruled by God. This encompasess all of the heavens and all of the earth, and eeverything within it.

What is the kingdoms of the earth? These are the kingdoms of men.

Does God rule over the kingdoms of men? Yes.

But we now have a dilemma. Didn't Satan offer Christ the kingdoms of the earth, as though he had owned them? Yes, he did. Did Jesus call him a liar? No. Therefore, Satan has control of the kingdoms of the earth, even as God has control of all of the earth.


Well I think where you're getting confused here though is that this was before the crucifixion, which gave Jesus total dominion over earth. The bible doesn't specifically mention why Satan offered Christ the world, but I think it can be implied that he did so for the purpose of Christ to not go through with the atonement sacrafice. So all authority over earth/heaven was handed to Christ by the Father after his death/resurrection.



What does this mean? It means that mankind have two options.

1. Live as they are now, living under the influence of sin, which governs the affairs of men even to this day.

2. Reject Satan by bowing the knee to Lord Jesus and accepting the Gift He paid for with His life!

When I say that Christ will have the authority that Satan weilds now, I am saying that God the Father will give to him everything that Satan offered during His period of temptation. This is what Christ knew when Satan offered the kingdoms of the earth to Him. He knew that he would get all of the kingdoms of men anyway, if He but only follow after His Father, which He wisely done.

To say that God's kingdom has been established on earth is to say that Christ has returned nad set up shop somewhere here on this earth. No, God's kingdom is not established on earth right now. Hence the reason why as part of the Lord's prayer, we are to pray for His Kingdom to come. His Kingdom has arrived on earth, and He is presently giving invitations for all to come to His Kingdom, but He is doing uso under durest, since Satan is not willfully obliging the Lord's request. This is part of the reason why his authority that Adam gave him will be t aken from him, by Lord Jesus upon His return.

Well yeah, technically speaking Christ has returned - or the Holy Spirit has returned which is one with Christ and one with all believers, and gives us authority over the powers that be in this world. Now in terms of Christ returning in all of his glory, that hasn't happened yet. I think it's supposed to happen at the end of the tribulation time, after the anti-christ kingdom has been established and he goes to war with the saints who currently remain on this earth after the great tribulation and rapture has occurred.

third hero
Jan 21st 2008, 07:33 PM
Well I think where you're getting confused here though is that this was before the crucifixion, which gave Jesus total dominion over earth. The bible doesn't specifically mention why Satan offered Christ the world, but I think it can be implied that he did so for the purpose of Christ to not go through with the atonement sacrafice. So all authority over earth/heaven was handed to Christ by the Father after his death/resurrection.


Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Matthew 4:8-9

For future reference, know this. I assume nothing. THis is during the temptations of Christ, before He started His ministry on earth. Satan offered Christ the kingdoms of the earth.



Well yeah, technically speaking Christ has returned - or the Holy Spirit has returned which is one with Christ and one with all believers, and gives us authority over the powers that be in this world. Now in terms of Christ returning in all of his glory, that hasn't happened yet. I think it's supposed to happen at the end of the tribulation time, after the anti-christ kingdom has been established and he goes to war with the saints who currently remain on this earth after the great tribulation and rapture has occurred.Christ has not returned yet in any sense of the word. Besides, full preterism is against the boards rules.

Friend of I AM
Jan 21st 2008, 07:51 PM
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Matthew 4:8-9

For future reference, know this. I assume nothing. THis is during the temptations of Christ, before He started His ministry on earth. Satan offered Christ the kingdoms of the earth.


Matthew 11:25-11:27
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.




Technically, what you say is blasphemy. Christ has not returned yet in any sense of the word. No matter how you try to tie full preterism into rality, the fact fail you every single time. Besides, full preterism is against the boards rules, and I suggest that you read them bfore attempting to defend heresy.


The Holy Spirit is one with Christ, as Christ is one with the Father. So yes, technically although Christ is gone from this world physically, his spirit is engrained within our hearts, as is his mind. We are all one with God through faith in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

third hero
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:39 AM
Matthew 11:25-11:27
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

And so, through the words of Christ and the testimonies of the disciples, we have the wisdom that is hidden from the wise, if only we accept it.



The Holy Spirit is one with Christ, as Christ is one with the Father. So yes, technically although Christ is gone from this world physically, his spirit is engrained within our hearts, as is his mind. We are all one with God through faith in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Us being one with Christ, Christ being one with the Holy Spirit, and Christ being said to have return are altogether differing topics, and should not be interlinked. Technically, the Kingdom of heaven has made an appearance here in this earth. Jesus brought it, and we carry more invitations to it. Just because the invites are here, and the representatives are here walking in the same power that Christ has endowed us with, it does not mean that the Kingdom of heaven is here on earth. The kingdom of heaven is still where Christ is, and it will not be fully established here on this earth until Lord Jesus returns and sets it up, in Jerusalem. (Psalm 2, MAtthew 25:31-46).

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2008, 08:47 AM
You know that's a good question. My only response to that would be the following verse:

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

I think the saints are reigning now, as they have been given authority by Christ over the world of evil. Remember what is stated in the following verse.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I believe the firsfruits, or those in the NT and OT(all of the diciples, etc) are currently with Christ in heaven, while those of us who are living are here reigning with him on earth. Revelations mentions during this 1000 year time men will be married and given in marriage, which would make sense to this particular time period existing right now, seeing as how after the resurrection, there will be no one married or given in marriage as per the Lord's testimony in Matthew 22:30.

I think many of those who have died in Christ as well as those who are still alive with him upon his return, will be taken away upon the rapture and before the great tribulation. There might be a few who remain here or who are left behind during the beginning antichrists kingdom, and I think they will be used as witnesses to testify of the coming milinnial battle as well as preaching a message of repentance to those who haven't accepted the mark of the beast. Many of those who are left behind and fighting against the anti-christ system, will be given the false impression by the powers that be that those truly representing the real God are members of the anti-christ kingdom, as oppossed to the other way around.

Are you saying then that the first resurrection has already passed?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This means that we can only be looking for the second coming of Christ after the 1000 years are complete.

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2008, 08:57 AM
I told you but you did not listen.

Though there are many, another translation:
"My kingdom," said Jesus, "doesn't consist of what you see around you. "

1 Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are Godís temple and that Godís Spirit lives in you?

Right now, until the physical kingdom comes,
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, they kingdom come, thy will be done.

the kingdom of God is in the hearts of believers


I did listen to what you said but it does not explain what Jesus said regarding the following.

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If my kingdom were of this world.

The kingdom of God that comes down from heaven after this earth has passed is not in our hearts.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This is the promised kingdom of God. This is Christs kingdom.

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2008, 09:15 AM
Mr 9:1 ∂ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The Kingdom of God has already been established. It is NOT going to be a literal kingdom on this Earth that will be established when Christ returns.

How then does that fit in with the following?

1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Are you looking for the New Jerusalem?

Jesus shall surely come in power.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mk 13:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mk 14:62 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

These things are yet to come.

ahealingman
Jan 22nd 2008, 02:37 PM
I did listen to what you said but it does not explain what Jesus said regarding the following.

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If my kingdom were of this world.

The kingdom of God that comes down from heaven after this earth has passed is not in our hearts.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This is the promised kingdom of God. This is Christs kingdom.
Firstfruits,
I don't understand how you equate the new jerusalem to Gods kingdom or Christs kingdom. Jesus said the kingdom of God is in your midst, spiritually the kingdom of God starts with the death of Jesus Christ. All believers are resurrected into the literal kingdom of God when He reigns.

But the bible also says the kingdom of God is here on earth, where Christ will reign. I'm sure you realize God is capable of doing/meaning two things with one word. Most, maybe everything has both a spiritual meaning and a literal meaning.

Rev 5:10 You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Rev 5:10 explains both the spiritual and literal meaning - appointed them as a kingdom with 'them' being believers, reign on the earth which is the literal fulfillment. He is calling them the kingdom as well as stating it will be here on earth.

Jesus came to proclaim the kingdom of God, this is elemental to His message. I honestly believe the kingdom should be the first thing taught to christians but there are so many ideas of what it is that nobody gets its anymore.

Mk 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mk 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

This was fundamental to His message so understanding the kingdom is fundamental to understanding the message.

You are equating a new heaven/new earth/new jerusalem which could be a million years from now to Gods kingdom I don't understand how you do that so I can't answer the question.

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2008, 03:28 PM
Firstfruits,
I don't understand how you equate the new jerusalem to Gods kingdom or Christs kingdom. Jesus said the kingdom of God is in your midst, spiritually the kingdom of God starts with the death of Jesus Christ. All believers are resurrected into the literal kingdom of God when He reigns.

But the bible also says the kingdom of God is here on earth, where Christ will reign. I'm sure you realize God is capable of doing/meaning two things with one word. Most, maybe everything has both a spiritual meaning and a literal meaning.

Rev 5:10 You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Rev 5:10 explains both the spiritual and literal meaning - appointed them as a kingdom with 'them' being believers, reign on the earth which is the literal fulfillment. He is calling them the kingdom as well as stating it will be here on earth.

Jesus came to proclaim the kingdom of God, this is elemental to His message. I honestly believe the kingdom should be the first thing taught to christians but there are so many ideas of what it is that nobody gets its anymore.

Mk 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mk 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

This was fundamental to His message so understanding the kingdom is fundamental to understanding the message.

You are equating a new heaven/new earth/new jerusalem which could be a million years from now to Gods kingdom I don't understand how you do that so I can't answer the question.

if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Why would his servants fight so that he would not be delivered to the Jews if he was not talking about the earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem.

Mt 19:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt 21:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Mk 9:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mk 9:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mk 10:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Mk 14:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Lk 21:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Acts 14:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


2 Thess 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Rev 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

There are two descriptions of the kingdom of Christ, the one that is within us and the kingdom that is yet to come.

Friend of I AM
Jan 22nd 2008, 04:18 PM
Are you saying then that the first resurrection has already passed?


John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I believe the firstfruits, or specifically many of the saints(if not all) are alive in Christ and working with him in establishing New Jerusalem as they never experienced death. Scripture points to this being the case by making reference to the assembly of the saints in the Proverbs and the Psalms.


Psalm 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.





Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
This means that we can only be looking for the second coming of Christ after the 1000 years are complete.

I believe that there are saints in heaven right now reigning with Christ as well as saints being here on earth reigning with Christ. I believe the thousand year period is almost over at this point. Rev 20:5, I think this is pointing to the rest of those who died in Christ(or currently sleeping as mentioned in the word I think..not sure what verse though) are those saints that weren't included in the Firstfruits. I believe these individuals will be raised after the end of the tribulation and upon Christ's defeating the antichrist, and they will be judged based on their works.

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:00 PM
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I believe the firstfruits, or specifically many of the saints(if not all) are alive in Christ and working with him in establishing New Jerusalem as they never experienced death. Scripture points to this being the case by making reference to the assembly of the saints in the Proverbs and the Psalms.


Psalm 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.





I believe that there are saints in heaven right now reigning with Christ as well as saints being here on earth reigning with Christ. I believe the thousand year period is almost over at this point. Rev 20:5, I think this is pointing to the rest of those who died in Christ(or currently sleeping as mentioned in the word I think..not sure what verse though) are those saints that weren't included in the Firstfruits. I believe these individuals will be raised after the end of the tribulation and upon Christ's defeating the antichrist, and they will be judged based on their works.

Where then are the beast and the antichrist which must be here until Christ returns? and as it is written those that were killed during the reign of the antichrist reign with Christ?

Allegra
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:04 PM
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Matthew 4:8-9

For future reference, know this. I assume nothing. THis is during the temptations of Christ, before He started His ministry on earth. Satan offered Christ the kingdoms of the earth.

It is not the importance of Christ not accepting the Devil's offer, It is obvious. Christ would never worship the Devil.
See John 6:15 below.
Jesus was offered to be a king with an earthly kingdom. He was offered those things & turned them down (John 6:15).

Christ rejected the offer to be king on an earthly throne, bc that was from the very beginning, a symbol of rebellion against God (1Samuel 8:5-8;10:19;12:17).

What say you about that?

The text in Rev.20 does not have "on earth" in it. "They reigned with Christ a thousand years." No "on earth!" No matter what anyone says, they cannot add that to the text. And it makes the millennial view moot.
Also, in Rev.20, there are no verses to describe what would be such a glorious thousand-year-period. It's just not in the text. There's nothing to support a millennium theory.

Friend of I AM
Jan 22nd 2008, 05:47 PM
Where then are the beast and the antichrist which must be here until Christ returns? and as it is written those that were killed during the reign of the antichrist reign with Christ?

The problem I think is with the way we view time and the way God views time. I think the saints who are martyred during the antichrist kingdom are here right now and will be martyred during the time of this 1000 year reign that we are currently in. I believe they will be brought up into heaven after they've been martyred. I think the rest of the dead will be judged after the tribulation is over and heaven and earth have passed away.

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:49 AM
The problem I think is with the way we view time and the way God views time. I think the saints who are martyred during the antichrist kingdom are here right now and will be martyred during the time of this 1000 year reign that we are currently in. I believe they will be brought up into heaven after they've been martyred. I think the rest of the dead will be judged after the tribulation is over and heaven and earth have passed away.

So you are saying those of us here today will be martyed by the antichrist? when then will they reign with Christ 1000 years (first resurrection) since as you say, we are already in the 1000 year period?

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 01:26 PM
So you are saying those of us here today will be martyed by the antichrist? when then will they reign with Christ 1000 years (first resurrection) since as you say, we are already in the 1000 year period?

My understanding is that we're in the 1000 year reign right now. I believe that some will be martyred, and taken up at the end of the 1000 year reign, before the time of the great tribulation. I believe the two witnesses will remain here on earth during the tribulation period, because that is what Revelations tells me.

I'm not sure if the two witnesses are two literal people, or if they represent all believers who worship God in Spirit and in Word. Whatever the case may be, I believe there will be witnesses preaching a message of repentance to everyone who has not yet submitted to God and received the mark of the beast. Some of these individuals being preached to will probably be people who worship other gods other than the true God, but have not yet submitted to the beast/antichrist system.

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2008, 02:16 PM
My understanding is that we're in the 1000 year reign right now. I believe that some will be martyred, and taken up at the end of the 1000 year reign, before the time of the great tribulation. I believe the two witnesses will remain here on earth during the tribulation period, because that is what Revelations tells me.

I'm not sure if the two witnesses are two literal people, or if they represent all believers who worship God in Spirit and in Word. Whatever the case may be, I believe there will be witnesses preaching a message of repentance to everyone who has not yet submitted to God and received the mark of the beast. Some of these individuals being preached to will probably be people who worship other gods other than the true God, but have not yet submitted to the beast/antichrist system.

If as you say we are in the 1000 year reign right now, then those that are marytred must be martyred before the 1000 years begin in order for them to reign with Christ 1000 years according to the following;
Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hAnds; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousAnd years.
Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Where then is the beast and what is his image and his mark that they refused to accept and therefore killed, as this must happen before the 1000 years begins?

Where are those that have been resurrected from the dead after they were martyred during the reign of the beast/antichrist?

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 04:10 PM
If as you say we are in the 1000 year reign right now, then those that are marytred must be martyred before the 1000 years begin in order for them to reign with Christ 1000 years according to the following;
Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hAnds; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousAnd years.


My thought is that the verse you have underlined refers to the past tense of saints reigning with God now as well as those who are going to be martyred now under the 1000 year reign. I think these all could be considered the Firstfruits, as per the following verse:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I think the rest of the dead are raised at the end during the white throne of judgement, after the real Christ has returned to earth and defeated the antichrist, or as it is mentioned above "at his coming."

I think these individuals will be judged based on their works, and I think the assembly of saints will assist in this judgement as per the following verses.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Psalm 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.


Rev 20:11-12
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2008, 04:51 PM
[/b]

My thought is that the verse you have underlined refers to the past tense of saints reigning with God now as well as those who are going to be martyred now under the 1000 year reign. I think these all could be considered the Firstfruits, as per the following verse:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I think the rest of the dead are raised at the end during the white throne of judgement, after the real Christ has returned to earth and defeated the antichrist, or as it is mentioned above "at his coming."

I think these individuals will be judged based on their works, and I think the assembly of saints will assist in this judgement as per the following verses.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Psalm 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.


Rev 20:11-12
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

According to what is written Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept;
and then you have they that are afterward at his coming.

1 Cor 15:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Cor 15:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:18 PM
According to what is written Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept;
and then you have they that are afterward at his coming.

1 Cor 15:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Cor 15:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Remember John 11:25-26 though?

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

So I think the Firstfruits are in reference to the Saints who are considered "Firstfruits" in Christ. I must admit I don't know who those saints are. My thought process would be that they probably include all of the saints from the NT/OT(disciples/prophets/etc) as well as all of those who are martyred during the antichrist kingdom as referenced in Rev 20:4. I know the latter of these assumptions to be correct, seeing as how Rev 20:4 states that those who didn't receive the mark and died for not taking it are automatically given the title of saint after being martyred.

Cliff H
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:21 PM
Doesn't this simply mean that the dead in Christ will rise first... Meaning the literal dead people and then those who are alive will be changed ?

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:29 PM
Doesn't this simply mean that the dead in Christ will rise first... Meaning the literal dead people and then those who are alive will be changed ?

I don't think so. I think there's an order to things as mentioned in Corinthians 15:23-24

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I encourage you to read through this thread, and then study a bit more and pray on what's been stated. If there is anything additionally you have questions about regarding my testimony, feel free to ask.

David Taylor
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:35 PM
II think there's an order to things as mentioned in Corinthians 15:23-24

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.



And the context gives us what the order is.

The full context:

I Corinthians 15:12 "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end"


What Paul doesn't teach, and what Paul doesn't mention; is subsetted groups of saints being resurrected at different times, and in different ways or eras. That is nowhere mentioned.

What Paul does mention; is two things.
The resurrection of Christ Himself as the firstfruits.
The resurrection of those who are Christ's that follow His pattern...spanning all the way "from Adam" to "the end"Nowhere does Paul speak of different groups of people being resurrected at different times in I Corninthians 15.

Paul speaks of those who die "from Adam" to "the end"....Humanity...one group.

Paul speaks of Jesus the firstfruits of Resurrection.

That's it.

(And for the careful reader, who reads down a little further and reads about who is resurrected in 15:54 by the OT verse it quotes, one can see Isaiah himself, and in 15:55 Hosea himself are both included in 'those who sleep in Christ and are raised at His coming'.

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2008, 10:29 PM
And the context gives us what the order is.

The full context:

I Corinthians 15:12 "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end"


What Paul doesn't teach, and what Paul doesn't mention; is subsetted groups of saints being resurrected at different times, and in different ways or eras. That is nowhere mentioned.

What Paul does mention; is two things.

The resurrection of Christ Himself as the firstfruits.
The resurrection of those who are Christ's that follow His pattern...spanning all the way "from Adam" to "the end"Nowhere does Paul speak of different groups of people being resurrected at different times in I Corninthians 15.

Paul speaks of those who die "from Adam" to "the end"....Humanity...one group.

Paul speaks of Jesus the firstfruits of Resurrection.

That's it.

(And for the careful reader, who reads down a little further and reads about who is resurrected in 15:54 by the OT verse it quotes, one can see Isaiah himself, and in 15:55 Hosea himself are both included in 'those who sleep in Christ and are raised at His coming'.

The only thing I have trouble with digesting regarding all of the above is the assembly of the saints issue. Why does it reference the assembly of the saints in Proverbs and in the Psalms if they aren't present before God at this point?

Psalm 89:7
God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

There's also some other verses/scriptures to support the existence of some of the OT saints being with him as well such as Elijah for example, as well as Enoch. All this being said I'll bow out of this discussion for a bit. Discussing end times scriptures is definitely something that takes a lot of study, a lot of prayer, and a lot of grace before one can really digest everything in totality.

Blessings,

Stephen

David Taylor
Jan 23rd 2008, 11:28 PM
Why does it reference the assembly of the saints in Proverbs and in the Psalms if they aren't present before God at this point?

Psalm 89:7
God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
Because even back during David's era, when the Psalm was written, God was feared (reverenced in our modern vernacular), by those of David's day who assembled together to worship Him.

The assembling of the saints to reverence God is something that occurs in all eras of time.



There's also some other verses/scriptures to support the existence of some of the OT saints being with him as well such as Elijah for example, as well as Enoch.

At death, alot of saints go to be with Him; awaiting the resurrection of the body.

That doesn't mean multiple or split resurrections however.

I Corithinians only mentions two resurrections.
The first one mentioned being Jesus Himself.
The second one mentioned being humankind from Adam until "the end".

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2008, 08:56 AM
Because even back during David's era, when the Psalm was written, God was feared (reverenced in our modern vernacular), by those of David's day who assembled together to worship Him.

The assembling of the saints to reverence God is something that occurs in all eras of time.



At death, alot of saints go to be with Him; awaiting the resurrection of the body.

That doesn't mean multiple or split resurrections however.

I Corithinians only mentions two resurrections.
The first one mentioned being Jesus Himself.
The second one mentioned being humankind from Adam until "the end".

Thanks DT, the only thing I would add to that is the resurrection mention in Revelation 20:4 of those that were marytered during the reign of the beast/antichrist.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hAnds; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousAnd years.
Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Although it says it is the first resurrection, it is not however of Christ the firstfruits of the dead, as it is written.

Note also that it says the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished, which is when Christ returns.

Friend of I AM
Jan 24th 2008, 02:15 PM
Okay. Decided to come back. I meditated a bit regarding this subject on my bed last night and the Lord lead me to some conclusions. I've broken up all topics into two groups, the definitive things that can be determined based on scripture, and those things which can't be fully determined and/or are speculative at best. That being said I'll start with the definitive things.

Those things that are definitive

1. We are currently in the 1000 year reign.

Explanation as to why:
We have authority over the powers of darkness in this world by calling on the name of Christ, due to his atonement sacrafice where all authority was handed over to him. If Christ was not reigning right now, we would have no power over these authorities.

Scriptures used to support this:
Luke 10:19-20
Matthew 10:1
Matthew 11:25-11:27


2. There will be a Rapture/Resurrection of the dead in Christ

Explanation as to why:
Basically what scripture speaks of throughout Christ's entire testimony. He states he is the resurrection, and if one is to believe in him they will never die.

Scriptures used to support this
Rev 20:11-12
1 Corinthians 15:12-24
John 11:25-26


3. There will be a Great Tribulation

Explanation as to why:
Basically exactly what is stated in scriptures. It will be a time of great distress for mankind.

Scriptures used to support this
Matthew 24:21
Revelation 7:14
Daniel 12:10 - 12:13


4. There will be two witnesses who testify during the great tribulation

Explanation as to why:
Basically this is exactly what scripture states. They will prophecy a message of repentance to all those who are not worshipping the beast, and haven't received the mark.

Scripture used to support this:
Revelation 11:1-14


5. There will be a final judgement of all the dead at the end of the Tribulation period, and a passing away of both Heaven and earth.

Explanation as to why:
Once again this is what scripture clearly states.

Scripture used to support this:
Rev 20:11-12



Those things that are not definitive


1. When Christ will Return
No one knows the time nor hour, as it is stated in Matt 24:32-36. Everytime someone attempts to explain the time periods of Rapture, there's a myriad amount of opinions and what not - and this will always be the case based on what is stated in scripture, "NO ONE KNOWS" Any further speculation on this regarding pre-trib, post-trib, etc by anyone just leads one into speaking gibberrish(which I've been guilty of myself on many occassions).

2. Who are the assembly of saints? Are they all in Heaven, on earth or both?
One could speculate that there are various saints in heaven right now based on Psalms 89:7 as well as by using events such as Elijah having been taken up in a chariot into heaven, or Enoch walking off the face of the earth.

3. Who the two witnesses are
No one knows. They could be two literal people, or they could be anyone who represents Christ in Word and Spirit. Not something that can be determined, I guarantee you this much though - I would be weary of anyone who claims to be one of them. You'll find that most if not all Prophets of the bible rarely announce there coming and just start prophecying.

That's about everything that I can think of at this point. If anyone has anything to share, or questions to ask please feel free to do so. God bless.

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2008, 02:26 PM
Okay. Decided to come back. I meditated a bit regarding this subject on my bed last night and the Lord lead me to some conclusions. I've broken up all topics into two groups, the definitive things that can be determined based on scripture, and those things which can't be fully determined and/or are speculative at best. That being said I'll start with the definitive things.

Those things that are definitive

1. We are currently in the 1000 year reign.

Explanation as to why:
We have authority over the powers of darkness in this world by calling on the name of Christ, due to his atonement sacrafice where all authority was handed over to him. If Christ was not reigning right now, we would have no power over these authorities.

Scriptures used to support this:
Luke 10:19-20
Matthew 10:1
Matthew 11:25-11:27


2. There will be a Rapture/Resurrection of the dead in Christ

Explanation as to why:
Basically what scripture speaks of throughout Christ's entire testimony. He states he is the resurrection, and if one is to believe in him they will never die.

Scriptures used to support this
Rev 20:11-12
1 Corinthians 15:12-24
John 11:25-26


3. There will be a Great Tribulation

Explanation as to why:
Basically exactly what is stated in scriptures. It will be a time of great distress for mankind.

Scriptures used to support this
Matthew 24:21
Revelation 7:14
Daniel 12:10 - 12:13


4. There will be two witnesses who testify during the great tribulation

Explanation as to why:
Basically this is exactly what scripture states. They will prophecy a message of repentance to all those who are not worshipping the beast, and haven't received the mark.

Scripture used to support this:
Revelation 11:1-14


5. There will be a final judgement of all the dead at the end of the Tribulation period, and a passing away of both Heaven and earth.

Explanation as to why:
Once again this is what scripture clearly states.

Scripture used to support this:
Rev 20:11-12



Those things that are not definitive


1. When Christ will Return
No one knows the time nor hour, as it is stated in Matt 24:32-36. Everytime someone attempts to explain the time periods of Rapture, there's a myriad amount of opinions and what not - and this will always be the case based on what is stated in scripture, "NO ONE KNOWS" Any further speculation on this regarding pre-trib, post-trib, etc by anyone just leads one into speaking gibberrish(which I've been guilty of myself on many occassions).

2. Who are the assembly of saints? Are they all in Heaven, on earth or both?
One could speculate that there are various saints in heaven right now based on Psalms 89:7 as well as by using events such as Elijah having been taken up in a chariot into heaven, or Enoch walking off the face of the earth.

3. Who the two witnesses are
No one knows. They could be two literal people, or they could be anyone who represents Christ in Word and Spirit. Not something that can be determined, I guarantee you this much though - I would be weary of anyone who claims to be one of them. You'll find that most if not all Prophets of the bible rarely announce there coming and just start prophecying.

That's about everything that I can think of at this point. If anyone has anything to share, or questions to ask please feel free to do so. God bless.

Can you really say that you are right now, living and reigning with Christ according to that which is written?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hAnds; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousAnd years.

Where may I ask is the evidence with regards to what is written?

Friend of I AM
Jan 24th 2008, 02:52 PM
Can you really say that you are right now, living and reigning with Christ according to that which is written?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hAnds; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousAnd years.

Where may I ask is the evidence with regards to what is written?


Luke 10:19-20
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." - Jesus

David Taylor
Jan 24th 2008, 03:22 PM
Can you really say that you are right now, living and reigning with Christ according to that which is written?

Where may I ask is the evidence with regards to what is written?



Ephesians 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. "

John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. "

Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ"

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

II Corinthians 4:10 "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you."

Colossians 2:6 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. "

II Timothy 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him"

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

John 11:25 "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2008, 03:34 PM
Ephesians 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. "

John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. "

Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ"

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

II Corinthians 4:10 "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you."

Colossians 2:6 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. "

II Timothy 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him"

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

John 11:25 "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."





Thanks DT, however there was no evidence of the beast/antichrist mentioned which is the reason for those in the first resurrection. Have those events happened or are they still to come?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hAnds; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousAnd years.

Friend of I AM
Jan 24th 2008, 04:08 PM
Thanks DT, however there was no evidence of the beast/antichrist mentioned which is the reason for those in the first resurrection. Have those events happened or are they still to come?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hAnds; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousAnd years.


I have some questions to ask of you FF:

Do you believe that Jesus is reigning and has authority over all now?

Do you believe Jesus was lying when he stated that his Father had given him all authority in Matthew 11:25-27?

Do his diciples have authority over the dark principalities of this world based on calling or rebuking him in his name?

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2008, 04:15 PM
I have some questions to ask of you FF:

Do you believe that Jesus is reigning and has authority over all now?

Do you believe Jesus was lying when he stated that his Father had given him all authority in Matthew 11:25-27?

Do his diciples have authority over the dark principalities of this world based on calling or rebuking him in his name?

Yes to all three, but how does that effect his coming kingdom that I believe we are looknig for?
Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

Dan 2:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Heb 11:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For he looked For a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Pet 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Friend of I AM
Jan 24th 2008, 04:26 PM
Those questions being answered, there's no longer a need for us to really discuss this. Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the life. If we deny that Christ is the way, the Truth, and the life - then we are denying God represents Truth himself. That being stated I will leave this dicussion indefinitely, as I feel that the positions I've presented have been discussed fairly thoroughly already. God bless.

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2008, 04:33 PM
Those questions being answered, there's no longer a need for us to really discuss this. Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the life. If we deny that Christ is the way, the Truth, and the life - then we are denying God represents Truth himself. That being stated I will leave this dicussion indefinitely, as I feel that the positions I've presented have been discussed fairly thoroughly already. God bless.

But that however does not answer the OP, as I am sure we that we here agree with your satement of who Christ is, but he has told us that his kingdom is not of this world which this does not address.

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

If my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight,

David Taylor
Jan 24th 2008, 05:17 PM
Thanks DT, however there was no evidence of the beast/antichrist mentioned which is the reason for those in the first resurrection. Have those events happened or are they still to come?



The beasts and the antichrists have been going on throughout the NT era. Nothing new under the sun.

Rev 20 depicts those martyred for their faith by the beasts and antichrists who killed them during their lives.

They are all now living and reigning with Christ in Heaven; awaiting the resurrection of the body that will accompany the Return of Christ.

John146
Jan 24th 2008, 06:10 PM
Ephesians 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. "

John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. "

Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ"

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

II Corinthians 4:10 "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you."

Colossians 2:6 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. "

II Timothy 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him"

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

John 11:25 "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."



Also,

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - Rev 1:5-6

John146
Jan 24th 2008, 06:16 PM
Thanks DT, however there was no evidence of the beast/antichrist mentioned which is the reason for those in the first resurrection. Have those events happened or are they still to come?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hAnds; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousAnd years.

I believe Revelation 20 is speaking of all the dead in Christ who have reigned with the Lord in heaven. The beast has been around a long time already. Believers throughout history have refused to worship the beast.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. - Rev 17:8

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2008, 08:35 AM
The beasts and the antichrists have been going on throughout the NT era. Nothing new under the sun.

Rev 20 depicts those martyred for their faith by the beasts and antichrists who killed them during their lives.

They are all now living and reigning with Christ in Heaven; awaiting the resurrection of the body that will accompany the Return of Christ.

Are you saying then that the 1000 year reign is therefore in heaven and not on this earth?

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2008, 08:36 AM
I believe Revelation 20 is speaking of all the dead in Christ who have reigned with the Lord in heaven. The beast has been around a long time already. Believers throughout history have refused to worship the beast.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. - Rev 17:8

So as you have said they reign in Heaven and not on this earth.

John146
Jan 25th 2008, 05:31 PM
So as you have said they reign in Heaven and not on this earth.

Right. It's a heavenly reign. Christ reigns from His throne in heaven. He ascended to the throne after His resurrection. In the vision, John sees the souls of the dead in Christ and where else can those souls be but in heaven, right?

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2008, 10:36 AM
I believe Revelation 20 is speaking of all the dead in Christ who have reigned with the Lord in heaven. The beast has been around a long time already. Believers throughout history have refused to worship the beast.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. - Rev 17:8

I agree that there are and have been many false prophets/antichrists, but would agree that the beast and the false prophet in the following scripture is a future event since Christ has not yet come with his armies?

Rev 19:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The saints that reign with Christ during the 1000 years whilst satan is bound,according to what is written, will do so before Christ returns, but it is the 1000 years that seems to have us not being able to agree what happens during that time.

ShirleyFord
Jan 27th 2008, 06:08 PM
Yes to all three, but how does that effect his coming kingdom that I believe we are looknig for?
Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

Dan 2:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Heb 11:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For he looked For a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Pet 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Jesus is King now.

John 1
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 12
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

Jn 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

If Jesus is King then He must have a kingdom in order to reign over it. Paul and John makes it clear that all true believers in Christ Jesus are in the kingdom of Christ Now!


Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 4:11 And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2008, 09:30 AM
Jesus is King now.

John 1
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 12
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

Jn 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

If Jesus is King then He must have a kingdom in order to reign over it. Paul and John makes it clear that all true believers in Christ Jesus are in the kingdom of Christ Now!


Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 4:11 And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Shirley

Thanks Shirley,

That still does not explain what Jesus meant when he said; Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

There is no doubt that Jesus is king but our promise is in Heaven, and so is his kingdom.

Mt 16:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Lk 6:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Lk 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

2 Cor 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Col 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

It is true that when we come the Christ and put off sin that we become one with the Father and the Son, but we wait for our the hope of his calling;
Eph 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

1 Thess 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

What is you hope? is is not to dwell with Both the Father and the Son in heaven, which is not of this world?

ShirleyFord
Jan 28th 2008, 10:54 AM
Thanks Shirley,

That still does not explain what Jesus meant when he said; Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

There is no doubt that Jesus is king but our promise is in Heaven, and so is his kingdom.

Mt 16:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Lk 6:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Lk 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

2 Cor 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Col 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

It is true that when we come the Christ and put off sin that we become one with the Father and the Son, but we wait for our the hope of his calling;
Eph 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

1 Thess 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

What is you hope? is is not to dwell with Both the Father and the Son in heaven, which is not of this world?

We who are in Christ and alive on this earth are not of this world but in it. We are in the kingdom of Christ in heaven while we are physically reigning with Him on the earth.

When we physically die we are spiritually in the kingdom of Christ spiritually while our dead physical bodies are buried somewhere on earth. We wait in heaven in His kingdom for our everlasting resurrected bodies at His Second Coming.

When Jesus returns, He brings His kingdom with Him (Rev. 21) and the spirits of those in Christ and sets His kingdom up on the new earth:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2008, 11:50 AM
We who are in Christ and alive on this earth are not of this world but in it. We are in the kingdom of Christ in heaven while we are physically reigning with Him on the earth.

When we physically die we are spiritually in the kingdom of Christ spiritually while our dead physical bodies are buried somewhere on earth. We wait in heaven in His kingdom for our everlasting resurrected bodies at His Second Coming.

When Jesus returns, He brings His kingdom with Him (Rev. 21) and the spirits of those in Christ and sets His kingdom up on the new earth:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega

What are the promises that were not received, but were seen afar off?

Heb 11:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This earth is not heavenly.

ShirleyFord
Jan 28th 2008, 12:30 PM
What are the promises that were not received, but were seen afar off?

Heb 11:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This earth is not heavenly.

No, but it will be when Christ returns with His kingdom and sets it up on the new earth. And all of us, since Adam, who are in Christ will receive our heavenly physical bodies at the Second Coming of Christ so they we can physically live in the everlasting physical kingdom of Christ, New Jerusalem, forever on the new everlasting physical earth.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2008, 01:15 PM
No, but it will be when Christ returns with His kingdom and sets it up on the new earth. And all of us, since Adam, who are in Christ will receive our heavenly physical bodies at the Second Coming of Christ so they we can physically live in the everlasting physical kingdom of Christ, New Jerusalem, forever on the new everlasting physical earth.


Shirley

So what you are saying is that the first earth is not his kingdom and will be destroyed, but the new Jerusalem which come down from heaven is.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

This is the promised kingdom.

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 2:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

This kingdom is not of this world.

ahealingman
Jan 28th 2008, 02:14 PM
I don't think so. I think there's an order to things as mentioned in Corinthians 15:23-24

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I encourage you to read through this thread, and then study a bit more and pray on what's been stated. If there is anything additionally you have questions about regarding my testimony, feel free to ask.

According to what is written Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept;
and then you have they that are afterward at his coming.

1 Cor 15:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Cor 15:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.



Nowhere does Paul speak of different groups of people being resurrected at different times in I Corninthians 15.

Paul speaks of those who die "from Adam" to "the end"....Humanity...one group.

Paul speaks of Jesus the firstfruits of Resurrection.



This depends on which bible version used.
NIV -
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

NET -
But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

Some bible interpreters clearly show the distinction in the translation while others where afraid to show the distinction. Bible translations are also altered based on what the translator believes

Paul was referring to 3. First Christ, then the 'firstfruits' which is typically considered to the the 144000 of Revelations (by anybody believing in a literal interpretation), then the rest of the believers when Christ returns.

Paul is clearly referring to the resurrection of many otherwise it would have been interpreted as "Christ the firstfruit", but all interpretations say "Christ the firstfruits" clearly indicating more than more which would have to be the case if he was calling Christ the firstfruit in this verse.

This is one reason I never base anything on one bible translation

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2008, 02:30 PM
This depends on which bible version used.
NIV -
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

NET -
But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

Some bible interpreters clearly show the distinction in the translation while others where afraid to show the distinction. Bible translations are also altered based on what the translator believes

Paul was referring to 3. First Christ, then the 'firstfruits' which is typically considered to the the 144000 of Revelations (by anybody believing in a literal interpretation), then the rest of the believers when Christ returns.

Paul is clearly referring to the resurrection of many otherwise it would have been interpreted as "Christ the firstfruit", but all interpretations say "Christ the firstfruits" clearly indicating more than more which would have to be the case if he was calling Christ the firstfruit in this verse.

This is one reason I never base anything on one bible translation


Are you saying that those that "belong to Christ" are not firstfruits, if so why?

When is the resurrection of the saints, if not when Christ returns?

John146
Jan 28th 2008, 02:52 PM
I agree that there are and have been many false prophets/antichrists, but would agree that the beast and the false prophet in the following scripture is a future event since Christ has not yet come with his armies?

Rev 19:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The saints that reign with Christ during the 1000 years whilst satan is bound,according to what is written, will do so before Christ returns, but it is the 1000 years that seems to have us not being able to agree what happens during that time.

Yes, I believe Revelation 19 is future and depicts the second coming of Christ. I'm an amillennialist, so I don't see it as a literal thousand years. I see the thousand years as basically the New Testament time period which we're in now and started with the first coming of Christ. But it doesn't include Satan's little season since that occurs after the thousand years.

John146
Jan 28th 2008, 03:10 PM
This depends on which bible version used.
NIV -
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

NET -
But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

Some bible interpreters clearly show the distinction in the translation while others where afraid to show the distinction. Bible translations are also altered based on what the translator believes

Paul was referring to 3. First Christ, then the 'firstfruits' which is typically considered to the the 144000 of Revelations (by anybody believing in a literal interpretation), then the rest of the believers when Christ returns.

Paul is clearly referring to the resurrection of many otherwise it would have been interpreted as "Christ the firstfruit", but all interpretations say "Christ the firstfruits" clearly indicating more than more which would have to be the case if he was calling Christ the firstfruit in this verse.

This is one reason I never base anything on one bible translation


Apparently, you didn't take 1 Cor 15:20 into consideration. You quoted from the NIV, so let's look at that version:

NIV -
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. - 1 Cor 15:20

It's quite clear that this verse says that Christ Himself is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2008, 03:28 PM
Yes, I believe Revelation 19 is future and depicts the second coming of Christ. I'm an amillennialist, so I don't see it as a literal thousand years. I see the thousand years as basically the New Testament time period which we're in now and started with the first coming of Christ. But it doesn't include Satan's little season since that occurs after the thousand years.

Where then are the beast and the false prophet that are here in order for those that reign with Christ for the 1000 year period and must be here when Christ returns?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Where are those that reign with christ during the 1000 years?

Where is the mark of the beast? ect,ect,ect.

John146
Jan 28th 2008, 03:49 PM
Where then are the beast and the false prophet that are here in order for those that reign with Christ for the 1000 year period and must be here when Christ returns?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Where are those that reign with christ during the 1000 years?

In heaven, but also on earth. I believe the souls of the dead reign with Him in heaven and He is there on His throne. Yet, He is also reigning in our hearts spiritually. He is the King of kings and reigns with His people now. The word reign does not mean He is ruling over all people as an earthly dictator or ruler would. He rules over His people. Satan rules over unbelievers and they will all be destroyed when Christ comes as a result of their rebellion and disbelief in the gospel.



Where is the mark of the beast? ect,ect,ect.

I believe the mark of the beast is a figurative or spiritual mark that directly contrasts with the seal of God and unbelievers have it even now because it is a mark of one giving his/her allegiance or worship to Satan and his kingdom (the unbelieving world government/system) rather than to Christ. Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me". A person either has the seal of God or the mark of the beast. People are either saved and have the seal of God or lost and have the mark of the beast.

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2008, 04:24 PM
In heaven, but also on earth. I believe the souls of the dead reign with Him in heaven and He is there on His throne. Yet, He is also reigning in our hearts spiritually. He is the King of kings and reigns with His people now. The word reign does not mean He is ruling over all people as an earthly dictator or ruler would. He rules over His people. Satan rules over unbelievers and they will all be destroyed when Christ comes as a result of their rebellion and disbelief in the gospel.



I believe the mark of the beast is a figurative or spiritual mark that directly contrasts with the seal of God and unbelievers have it even now because it is a mark of one giving his/her allegiance or worship to Satan and his kingdom (the unbelieving world government/system) rather than to Christ. Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me". A person either has the seal of God or the mark of the beast. People are either saved and have the seal of God or lost and have the mark of the beast.

Are the 144,000 of Israel also figurative marked with the seal of God to proptect them during the pouring out of the wrath of God upon those that worship the beast and have his mark? Is therefore God's wrath also figurative?

John146
Jan 28th 2008, 04:43 PM
Are the 144,000 of Israel also figurative marked with the seal of God to proptect them during the pouring out of the wrath of God upon those that worship the beast and have his mark?

Yes, I believe so. God doesn't need people to have a physical seal or mark in order to tell who is who.



Is therefore God's wrath also figurative?

No, I believe God's wrath refers to physical destruction.

Firstfruits
Jan 29th 2008, 08:43 AM
Yes, I believe so. God doesn't need people to have a physical seal or mark in order to tell who is who.



No, I believe God's wrath refers to physical destruction.

Do you believe then that there will be 144,000 that will be protected from the wrath of God, and those that worship the beast/antichrist will not be protected from the wrath of God?

John146
Jan 29th 2008, 11:23 PM
Do you believe then that there will be 144,000 that will be protected from the wrath of God, and those that worship the beast/antichrist will not be protected from the wrath of God?

The 144,000 are the firstfruits, not the lastfruits, so I don't believe the 144,000 refers to people in the future who are protected from God's wrath. As far as those who worship the beast, they certainly are not protected from the wrath of God.

My understanding of the firstfruits comes from the book of James:

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. - Rev 7:4

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. - James 1:1

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. - Rev 14:4

17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. - James 1:17-18,29

James refers to the twelve tribes as "a kind of firstfruits" of God's creatures. The Israelites were the first to have the gospel preached to them when Christ came. So, I see the 144,000 as the first Christians, who were Israelites, that began the spread of the gospel, which resulted in multitudes from all nations becoming Christians as well. Those firstfruits were not defiled by false religion. I see the description of them as virgins as being symbolic of their spiritual purity.

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. - Rev 7:9-10

Firstfruits
Jan 30th 2008, 08:52 AM
The 144,000 are the firstfruits, not the lastfruits, so I don't believe the 144,000 refers to people in the future who are protected from God's wrath. As far as those who worship the beast, they certainly are not protected from the wrath of God.

My understanding of the firstfruits comes from the book of James:

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. - Rev 7:4

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. - James 1:1

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. - Rev 14:4

17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. - James 1:17-18,29

James refers to the twelve tribes as "a kind of firstfruits" of God's creatures. The Israelites were the first to have the gospel preached to them when Christ came. So, I see the 144,000 as the first Christians, who were Israelites, that began the spread of the gospel, which resulted in multitudes from all nations becoming Christians as well. Those firstfruits were not defiled by false religion. I see the description of them as virgins as being symbolic of their spiritual purity.

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. - Rev 7:9-10

How then do you explain the following?

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

ShirleyFord
Jan 30th 2008, 10:58 AM
How then do you explain the following?

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


What is the seal of God:

2 Cor 1:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


We find that God's seal is His mark of ownership on those who are His:

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon Him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon Him my new name.




Shirley

Firstfruits
Jan 30th 2008, 12:36 PM
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


What is the seal of God:

2 Cor 1:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


We find that God's seal is His mark of ownership on those who are His:

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon Him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon Him my new name.




Shirley

With the undrestanding that the 144,000 are sealed before God pours out his wrath upon the earth and it inhabitants, through the seven trumpets, and the 144,000 are here during that time, that would therefore be future, wouldn't it?

Junietta
Jan 30th 2008, 05:13 PM
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52404

The 144,000 are with the Lord now, having been converts of the early church.
Rev 14 They are with the Lord now

Firstfruits
Jan 30th 2008, 07:32 PM
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52404

The 144,000 are with the Lord now, having been converts of the early church.
Rev 14 They are with the Lord now

With the understanding that it will only be the 144,000 that will be protected from the wrath of God according to what is written;
Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

This is the fifth trumpet, otherwise known as the first woe.
Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Why would God seal the 144,000 before he pours out his wrath if they will not be there in the first place?

Who are Christs elect that shall be gathered after the tribulation when Christ returns?

Junietta
Jan 31st 2008, 12:07 AM
Aha ! Now I see the problem You are combining passages that do not belong together.

Rev 7 is talking about the very first converts in the early church as told in Acts chapters two through nine.

Seal number seven and the seven trumpets won't take place till near the end of the world.

IPet2_9
Jan 31st 2008, 12:44 AM
4. There will be two witnesses who testify during the great tribulation

Explanation as to why:
Basically this is exactly what scripture states. They will prophecy a message of repentance to all those who are not worshipping the beast, and haven't received the mark.

Scripture used to support this:
Revelation 11:1-14


If you don't mind, I'm going to split hairs here. I see nothing in those verses which states that the Witnesses will be prophesying a message of repentance, or that they are witnessing to those not worshipping the beast. Let's not confuse the connotation "witnessing" has in today's Christian-ese terminology. The Two Witnesses here go back to OT law, which states that you cannot convict except on the testimony of two witnesses. We do know that they will be prophesying, bearing witness to something, and that it has something to do with the olive trees and lampstands, though.

IPet2_9
Jan 31st 2008, 12:48 AM
Rev 7 is talking about the very first converts in the early church as told in Acts chapters two through nine.I assume there are dedicated threads as to who the 144,000 are. I take this number symbolically. All John is saying in Rev. 7, IMHO, is that there will be a saved remnant of Israel and a saved mass of Gentiles. It's contrary to the way I usually interpret things--normally I'm not so allegorical--but I am with this. In large part, because I am also Free Will. It's kinda hard to be Free Will and also believe in a literal number of saved people, such as 144,000.

Junietta
Jan 31st 2008, 02:51 AM
Read this. You may change your outlook

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=52404

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 08:51 AM
Aha ! Now I see the problem You are combining passages that do not belong together.

Rev 7 is talking about the very first converts in the early church as told in Acts chapters two through nine.

Seal number seven and the seven trumpets won't take place till near the end of the world.

There are two separate questions, however both can only take place at the end of time.

Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

But is that not when the 144,000 are sealed, just before the seven trumpets are blown? and the are still here durng that time.

If the 144,000 are already gone they have no need to be protected from the wrath of God when the trumpets are to sound.

Junietta
Jan 31st 2008, 02:47 PM
The 144,000 were sealed at the time of the early church.

There will be other people who will be protected and sealed before the end time wrath of God.

These are entirely different times and situations and many years apart.

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 03:05 PM
The 144,000 were sealed at the time of the early church.

There will be other people who will be protected and sealed before the end time wrath of God.

These are entirely different times and situations and many years apart.

Why are they sealed just before God pours out his wrath, which is yet to come?

Junietta
Jan 31st 2008, 03:31 PM
There will be new conversions among the people right up to the end whom God will save.

God will make sure all are protected and sealed before He brings down His wrath on those who still refuse His offer of salvation.

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 04:01 PM
There will be new conversions among the people right up to the end whom God will save.

God will make sure all are protected and sealed before He brings down His wrath on those who still refuse His offer of salvation.

It is written that during the pouring out of Gods wrath that no one repents of their sins. So if they were not sealed before they will not be saved during that time.

Rev 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 9:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Junietta
Jan 31st 2008, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Junietta http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1521229#post1521229)
There will be new conversions among the people right up to the end whom God will save.

God will make sure all are protected and sealed before He brings down His wrath on those who still refuse His offer of salvation.

Firstfruits
Jan 31st 2008, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Junietta http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1521229#post1521229)
There will be new conversions among the people right up to the end whom God will save.

God will make sure all are protected and sealed before He brings down His wrath on those who still refuse His offer of salvation.

Yes as you have said, before Gods wrath is poured out as stated, after they are sealed no one else will be saved.

Rev 9:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 9:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Firstfruits
Feb 1st 2008, 10:00 AM
When God destroys Jerusalem, and this earth is no more, can we say that Christs promised kingdom is of this world?

Jer 25:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

Lam 4:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=25&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) The kings of The earth, and all The inhabitants of The world, would not have believed that The adversary and The enemy should have entered into The gates of Jerusalem.

Is 24:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

If in this world is the kingdom of Christ why then would it not be remembered, nor come into mind? Christs kingdom shall not pass away, this earth will pass away.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2008, 01:41 PM
If Christs promised kingdom if of this world, what did he mean with regard to the following scriptures, which was in reply to the disciples questions?

Mt 24:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world

Did Jesus therefore tell them what to look for regarding his coming, and the end of this world, (said to be his kingdom) if so why?

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2008, 03:03 PM
If Christs promised kingdom if of this world, what did he mean with regard to the following scriptures, which was in reply to the disciples questions?

Mt 24:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mt 24:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world

Did Jesus therefore tell them what to look for regarding his coming, and the end of this world, (said to be his kingdom) if so why?

Does Jesus tell the disciples that this world shall end?

ShirleyFord
Feb 5th 2008, 03:24 PM
Does Jesus tell the disciples that this world shall end?

I believe that Jesus tells John it will:

Revelation 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Shirley

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2008, 08:46 AM
I believe that Jesus tells John it will:

Revelation 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.



Shirley

Thanks Shirley,

Since this earth will be destoryed/pass away, from the following scriptures can we say that Christs kingdom is of this world?

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

ShirleyFord
Feb 6th 2008, 10:53 AM
Thanks Shirley,

Since this earth will be destoryed/pass away, from the following scriptures can we say that Christs kingdom is of this world?

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The kingdom of Christ is an everlasting kingdom and not set up according to this world's earthly temporal system.

Ps 103:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=103&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

Ps 145:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=145&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

2 Tim 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Tim 4:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Heb 12:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Jas 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

2 Pet 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Rev 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2008, 10:56 AM
The kingdom of Christ is an everlasting kingdom and not set up according to this world's earthly temporal system.

With this earth being destroyed, can his kingdom be on this earth if it is no more?