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Christsfreeservant
Jan 23rd 2008, 07:27 PM
My husband and I have been invited to sing with another church's choir for their Easter musical. It is called "3:16" and is based on Max Lucado's book of that same title. I was listening to the CD in the car when I heard this:

"Jesus alone is the monogenetic Son of God, because only Christ has God's genes or genetic makeup... When parents beget or conceive a child, they transfer their DNA to the newborn. Jesus shares God's DNA. Jesus isn't begotten in the sense that he began but in the sense that he and God have the same essence, eternal life span, unending wisdom, and tireless energy. Every quality we attribute to God, we can attribute to Jesus."

Do you notice anything missing? He compares Jesus as the son of God and him sharing God's DNA much the same as a human child gets their parents DNA transferred him or her. He says Jesus is like God in that he shares his DNA (parent/child) and his qualities. But, there is a distinct separation here, that I see, between "God" and "Jesus" as though Jesus is not God but is merely the Son of God. Do you see that, too?

Does anyone know whether or not Max Lucado believes in the diety of Christ - that he is God, not just the Son of God?

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 23rd 2008, 07:55 PM
My husband and I have been invited to sing with another church's choir for their Easter musical. It is called "3:16" and is based on Max Lucado's book of that same title. I was listening to the CD in the car when I heard this:

"Jesus alone is the monogenetic Son of God, because only Christ has God's genes or genetic makeup... When parents beget or conceive a child, they transfer their DNA to the newborn. Jesus shares God's DNA. Jesus isn't begotten in the sense that he began but in the sense that he and God have the same essence, eternal life span, unending wisdom, and tireless energy. Every quality we attribute to God, we can attribute to Jesus."

Do you notice anything missing? He compares Jesus as the son of God and him sharing God's DNA much the same as a human child gets their parents DNA transferred him or her. He says Jesus is like God in that he shares his DNA (parent/child) and his qualities. But, there is a distinct separation here, that I see, between "God" and "Jesus" as though Jesus is not God but is merely the Son of God. Do you see that, too?

Does anyone know whether or not Max Lucado believes in the diety of Christ - that he is God, not just the Son of God?

Hi Sue,

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;


I'd say that by what you write and quote, that your have a discerning heart.... I agree with your comments.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:03 PM
Max does believe in the diety of Christ. 3:16 is the only book I have not yet read. But it's rampant throughout his other works. It sounds as if he is simply trying to put the difficulty of the oneness of God and Christ in physical terms...which can go badly on most fronts.

Brother Mark
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:07 PM
"Jesus alone is the monogenetic Son of God, because only Christ has God's genes or genetic makeup... When parents beget or conceive a child, they transfer their DNA to the newborn. Jesus shares God's DNA. Jesus isn't begotten in the sense that he began but in the sense that he and God have the same essence, eternal life span, unending wisdom, and tireless energy. Every quality we attribute to God, we can attribute to Jesus."

I don't know much about Max Lucado. But it is hard for me to read that paragraph and think he doesn't see Jesus as God. If every quality you can contribute to God, you can contribute to Jesus, wouldn't that mean he sees Jesus as God?

Christsfreeservant
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:29 PM
Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. I agree that it sounds like he is equating Jesus with God in one sense but yet in another it is almost as though he is separating them like a parent from a child who share the same DNA and qualities often, too, but that does not mean they are "one." I may be straining at a gnat, but this just really jumped out at me. I am very sensitized to false teaching mixed in with enough truth to make it look like truth when it isn't. There is so much of this in the church (overall) today. I'm going to pray over this one, obviously, but just wanted to see if anyone knew his theology because I'm having a difficult time finding exactly what he believes. I have Oak Hills Church of Christ's statement of faith and they believe in the deity of Christ and he is their pastor, yet this just isn't setting well with me and I need to resolve it. So, you can pray that God gives me direction here. Thanks so much!!

Christsfreeservant
Jan 23rd 2008, 08:43 PM
Ok, here is the next quote:

"Jesus knows the dimensions of God's throne room, the fragrance of its incense, the favorite songs of the unceasing choir. He has a unique, one-of-a-kind, unrivaled knowledge of God and wants to share his knowledge with you." It was Jesus who said, "No one really knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matt.11:27).

Ok, in the scriptures the distinction between God the Father and God the Son is described as thus - Father and Son but equally God. Ok, bear with me here. Notice that Max Lucado always says "God" not God the Father as distinguishable from Jesus, the Son of God. It is a fine line, but false teachings are made up of fine lines mixed in with the truth.

You see, he says that Jesus knows the dimensions of God's throne room, but isn't that Jesus' throne room, too? Max says that Jesus has an unrivaled knoweldge of God and wants to share his knowledge with you. That is like saying that my son knows my house really well and my nature, habits, etc. and so he wants to tell you about me, but my son is not me. Do you see the difference? He speaks as though God and Jesus are separate beings. If he said God the Father it would be a totally different story, but he doesn't. He talks as though Jesus shares DNA and personality characteristics with God just as much as my son shares with me, only more exact. But, I don't get the sense that he is equating Jesus with God as though they are one. This is really bothering me.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 23rd 2008, 09:27 PM
Ok, here is the next quote:

"Jesus knows the dimensions of God's throne room, the fragrance of its incense, the favorite songs of the unceasing choir. He has a unique, one-of-a-kind, unrivaled knowledge of God and wants to share his knowledge with you." It was Jesus who said, "No one really knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matt.11:27).

Ok, in the scriptures the distinction between God the Father and God the Son is described as thus - Father and Son but equally God. Ok, bear with me here. Notice that Max Lucado always says "God" not God the Father as distinguishable from Jesus, the Son of God. It is a fine line, but false teachings are made up of fine lines mixed in with the truth.

You see, he says that Jesus knows the dimensions of God's throne room, but isn't that Jesus' throne room, too? Max says that Jesus has an unrivaled knoweldge of God and wants to share his knowledge with you. That is like saying that my son knows my house really well and my nature, habits, etc. and so he wants to tell you about me, but my son is not me. Do you see the difference? He speaks as though God and Jesus are separate beings. If he said God the Father it would be a totally different story, but he doesn't. He talks as though Jesus shares DNA and personality characteristics with God just as much as my son shares with me, only more exact. But, I don't get the sense that he is equating Jesus with God as though they are one. This is really bothering me.


Again, I agree with your findings.... keep digging! :)

Theophilus
Jan 23rd 2008, 09:35 PM
I would be cautious...there's lots of articles on the web about "spiritual DNA"...and some of it seems a bit dodgy.

I'd hate to think Max is getting off the beaten path...but as you've already been told..."keep digging."

Christsfreeservant
Jan 23rd 2008, 11:32 PM
I would be cautious...there's lots of articles on the web about "spiritual DNA"...and some of it seems a bit dodgy.

I'd hate to think Max is getting off the beaten path...but as you've already been told..."keep digging."

I read through the dialogue and the words to the songs in the musical version of 3:16 and another thing strongly stood out to me. The gospel was majorly watered down. It made it sound like everyone is a Christian or that becoming a Christian had no requirements - no repentance; no turning from sin is mentioned. It is this whole thing of love and acceptance and that God loves everyone, which he does and he is a loving God and he calls each one of us to repentance, but the whole premise is that all one has to do is just say "ok" basically and they have the hope of eternal life.

This whole "easy believism" theology is permeating the church of today! So many preachers are out there giving people false hope. They are telling them they have the hope of eternal life as though it is something everyone possesses no matter how one lives his life. This is so contrary to scripture. They say that repentance as a requirement for salvation is works-based, but God even gives us the desire and ability to repent, so it is all a gift from God. We can't do this in our own strength. But, repentance is still our heart response to what Jesus did for us on the cross.

If I say I believe Jesus died to free me from my sins and then I continue in my sin, then I didn't really believe it, did I? So many are just looking for a free ride to heaven and they are preaching a very broad road to heaven when the Bible teaches that the road is narrow and there are few who travel it. So, what makes it narrow? It is costly. Yet, it is the only true freedom anyone will ever find. This "easy believism" leaves people in the bondage of their sins and yet promises them hope. That is worse than not telling them anything!

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 12:43 AM
A friend sent me this link: http://www.geocities.com/asterisktom/lucado.html

Here is a quote from the article:
A JESUS ALL TOO HUMAN AND NOT ENOUGH GOD
It has been a tendency throughout Christian history to alternate between two extremes when portraying Christ: A Jesus who is human to the point of denying His deity, or a Christ who is divine, but whose humanity is denied. Neither is the Christ of the Bible, who was the balanced God-Man. Lucado's emphasis is clearly on Jesus' humanity, to a fault.

Brother Mark
Jan 24th 2008, 12:45 AM
A friend sent me this link: http://www.geocities.com/asterisktom/lucado.html

Here is a quote from the article:
A JESUS ALL TOO HUMAN AND NOT ENOUGH GOD
It has been a tendency throughout Christian history to alternate between two extremes when portraying Christ: A Jesus who is human to the point of denying His deity, or a Christ who is divine, but whose humanity is denied. Neither is the Christ of the Bible, who was the balanced God-Man. Lucado's emphasis is clearly on Jesus' humanity, to a fault.

Isn't that simply someone else's opinion of him and his doctrine?

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 12:51 AM
P.S. Some of Lucdo's quotes in this article sound almost "word for word" from the mouth of Rick Warren from his book "Purpose Driven Church."

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 12:53 AM
Isn't that simply someone else's opinion of him and his doctrine?

If you read the article, it is filled with Max Lucado quotes and the author of the article then compares Max Lucado's comments against scripture, so yes, it is the author's analysis of Max Lucado's words as compared with scripture and I'm sure there is some commentary, too, that is opinion-oriented. Max words against scripture, though, is pretty forth-telling.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 24th 2008, 12:59 AM
P.S. Some of Lucdo's quotes in this article sound almost "word for word" from the mouth of Rick Warren from his book "Purpose Driven Church."

Good digging! I was hoping that you'd see this on your own! :saint:

Brother Mark
Jan 24th 2008, 01:03 AM
If you read the article, it is filled with Max Lucado quotes and the author of the article then compares Max Lucado's comments against scripture, so yes, it is the author's analysis of Max Lucado's words as compared with scripture and I'm sure there is some commentary, too, that is opinion-oriented. Max words against scripture, though, is pretty forth-telling.

Especially so when the author has an ax to grind. It is easy to pick and choose what quotes to use and how much context to use them in.

For instance, when I teach on Jesus, I might one day teach completely on his humanity. The entire focus could be on that, because of scripture in Hebrews. And the purpose would be to encourage the listeners. Though all the listeners would know that I believe Jesus to be 100% God. A different time, I might preach the divinity of Christ completely. We a similar thing with the book of James and Galatians. One is all about grace while the other focuses on works. The audiences are different so the emphasis is changed.

It all depends on the audience. Who is Max Lucado's audience and what is he trying to communicate?

If every quality we attribute to God can be attributed to Christ, how much more God can Jesus be? That first quote is very, very strong. What quality then does God have that Jesus doesn't? Is God eternal past and future? Yes, then so is Christ. If it is God's throne, then it must be Jesus'.


Again, I haven't read much of his material. But didn't you say above that his church, of whom he is pastor, recognizes the deity of Christ?

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 24th 2008, 02:32 AM
If you read the article, it is filled with Max Lucado quotes and the author of the article then compares Max Lucado's comments against scripture, so yes, it is the author's analysis of Max Lucado's words as compared with scripture and I'm sure there is some commentary, too, that is opinion-oriented. Max words against scripture, though, is pretty forth-telling.

I would agree, our words are our window into our mind and understandings, that's why James advocates that we should be quick to hear and slow to speak.

Looking at his church doctrine I found it also a bit weak in structure,

http://www.oakhillschurchsa.org/about/beliefs/


"Jesus Christ
Jesus was miraculously born of the Virgin Mary (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35) and became flesh and blood (John 1:1-16; 29-34) without ceasing to be God. He lived a sinless life and performed many miracles to confirm his divinity. He died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, paying the debt for our sins (Mark 10:45). On the third day after his death he arose from the dead showing his victory over sin and death (1 Corinthians 15:3-8). He appeared to his disciples and then ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God serving as our mediator."

For compared to other protestant churches doctrinal statements it seems to lack Jesus' eternal being... Notice how it opens -- it seems to say that Jesus begins from birth... If anything it could have been worded a bit clearer... Or it was worded exactly they way they intended -- left to the individual believer to add the understanding.


The other concern I have is how this churches statement of faith closes like a foot note...

At Oak Hills we sincerely try to follow the Bible and its teachings. However, our ability to logically figure everything out is not the basis for our acceptability before God. Our salvation is based on what God has done for us through Jesus Christ. What we must be right about is the fact that we cannot be right about everything and are therefore completely dependent on God’s graciousness and mercy...

Looks like a lukewarm doctrinal position, aka an escape clause... :lol:


So Sue... I for one say you are digging good, discernible stuff here...

Brother Mark
Jan 24th 2008, 02:50 AM
http://www.oakhillschurchsa.org/about/beliefs/

"Jesus Christ
Jesus was miraculously born of the Virgin Mary (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35) and became flesh and blood (John 1:1-16; 29-34) without ceasing to be God. He lived a sinless life and performed many miracles to confirm his divinity. He died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, paying the debt for our sins (Mark 10:45). On the third day after his death he arose from the dead showing his victory over sin and death (1 Corinthians 15:3-8). He appeared to his disciples and then ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God serving as our mediator."For compared to other protestant churches doctrinal statements it seems to lack Jesus' eternal being... Notice how it opens -- it seems to say that Jesus begins from birth... If anything it could have been worded a bit clearer... Or it was worded exactly they way they intended -- left to the individual believer to add the understanding.


The other concern I have is how this churches statement of faith closes like a foot note...

At Oak Hills we sincerely try to follow the Bible and its teachings. However, our ability to logically figure everything out is not the basis for our acceptability before God. Our salvation is based on what God has done for us through Jesus Christ. What we must be right about is the fact that we cannot be right about everything and are therefore completely dependent on God’s graciousness and mercy...

Those statements look good to me. I go back to what he wrote in the in the OP, that all qualities of God can be found in Christ. Eternal existence is one quality given to God.

It sounds to me like you guys have more of an issue with his wording than his belief system. Surely you don't believe we can logically figure out everything in scripture?

Again, I don't know much about Max Lucado, but I still haven't seen anything that is blatently wrong. When taken in totality, that statement in the OP is very strong concerning the divinity of Christ. Do you have anything more concrete about him believing Jesus is not an eternal being? Besides, how can one crucified before the foundations of the earth come into being at his birth?

Again, it looks to me as though you guys are trying to find something in the wording that doesn't appear to be there.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 02:53 AM
If every quality we attribute to God can be attributed to Christ, how much more God can Jesus be? That first quote is very, very strong. What quality then does God have that Jesus doesn't? Is God eternal past and future? Yes, then so is Christ. If it is God's throne, then it must be Jesus'.

The problem is this: Although it is true that if every quality we attribute to God (the Father) can be attributed to Christ (God the Son) then it would certainly be a fair conclusion that he shares equally with God in his attributes, still it is in what is not said that disturbs me. We have to realize that the average "Joe" does not have that discernment. I have taught Southern Baptist ladies before in Bible study who were convinced that Jesus was merely the Son of God and is not God himself. I've also had many evangelical church based college students in our college Bible study who reached the same assumption and were really shocked to learn that Jesus is indeed God. And, it took some serious showing them the Word of God before they were convinced.

So, although a student of the Bible would be able, perhaps, to make that distinction, most people would not and would see this as God and Jesus as being separate beings and Jesus sharing in God (the Father's) DNA much the same as human children share in their parents', since that is the illustration Max used. Also, the reference to Jesus knowing "God" and knowing his "throne" and using the term "God" as opposed to "God the Father," again separates Jesus from God as though he is not God. If indeed it is Jesus' throne, then why not say so? Why allude to the idea that Jesus knows about "God's" throne as though he and God are not one? Again, you and I know better and we can make that distinction, but most people who are not versed in the Word can not and will assume that Jesus and "God" are somehow separate beings. That is the subtle allusion.


Again, I haven't read much of his material. But didn't you say above that his church, of whom he is pastor, recognizes the deity of Christ?

I have known and read about many pastors who do not strictly adhere to their church's doctrinal statements and will, in some cases, teach something that is contrary to or a slightly altered version of the doctrine of the church, especially if it is disguised, like I believe Max's statements are, so that the people do not really notice. It looks like the truth and may even smell like the truth, but it doesn't act like the truth.

Rick Warren is a huge, huge artist at blending little subtle lies in with the truth to where they are not or are barely noticed by most evangelicals. That is the way Satan works. He slowly and gradually changes the truth just enough to where no one notices and before long you are believing lies and you don't even know it.

Max's quotes sounded scaringly familiar to Rick Warren's and straight out of the "Purpose Driven Church." This is a cult that has spread throughout the evangelical churches in America to where they are following the gospel according to Rick Warren instead of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Brother Mark
Jan 24th 2008, 03:00 AM
The problem is this: Although it is true that if every quality we attribute to God (the Father) can be attributed to Christ (God the Son) then it would certainly be a fair conclusion that he shares equally with God in his attributes, still it is in what is not said that disturbs me. We have to realize that the average "Joe" does not have that discernment. I have taught Southern Baptist ladies before in Bible study who were convinced that Jesus was merely the Son of God and is not God himself. I've also had many evangelical church based college students in our college Bible study who reached the same assumption and were really shocked to learn that Jesus is indeed God. And, it took some serious showing them the Word of God before they were convinced.

So, although a student of the Bible would be able, perhaps, to make that distinction, most people would not and would see this as God and Jesus as being separate beings and Jesus sharing in God (the Father's) DNA much the same as human children share in their parents', since that is the illustration Max used. Also, the reference to Jesus knowing "God" and knowing his "throne" and using the term "God" as opposed to "God the Father," again separates Jesus from God as though he is not God. If indeed it is Jesus' throne, then why not say so? Why allude to the idea that Jesus knows about "God's" throne as though he and God are not one? Again, you and I know better and we can make that distinction, but most people who are not versed in the Word can not and will assume that Jesus and "God" are somehow separate beings. That is the subtle allusion.

It seems rather plain to me. Why assume others won't get it too? I often say God instead of God the Father. Again, it sounds to me like you have an issue with his wording more than his belief system. So far, I think I will take his words at face value. If they are more sinister, they will show themselves at some point.


I have known and read about many pastors who do not strictly adhere to their church's doctrinal statements and will, in some cases, teach something that is contrary to or a slightly altered version of the doctrine of the church, especially if it is disguised, like I believe Max's statements are, so that the people do not really notice. It looks like the truth and may even smell like the truth, but it doesn't act like the truth.

Rick Warren is a huge, huge artist at blending little subtle lies in with the truth to where they are not or are barely noticed by most evangelicals. That is the way Satan works. He slowly and gradually changes the truth just enough to where no one notices and before long you are believing lies and you don't even know it.

Max's quotes sounded scaringly familiar to Rick Warren's and straight out of the "Purpose Driven Church." This is a cult that has spread throughout the evangelical churches in America to where they are following the gospel according to Rick Warren instead of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But if we are going to make an open accusation on a public board, that preaches the word, shouldn't we have more than just suggestions and innuendos? Shouldn't we have something a little more concrete? At this point, can you find anything about what he says concerning salvation to be wrong?

Not sure, but if what you are getting at is true, perhaps he believes in modalism. (I am not sure if I spelled that right.)

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 24th 2008, 03:31 AM
Those statements look good to me. I go back to what he wrote in the in the OP, that all qualities of God can be found in Christ. Eternal existence is one quality given to God.

It sounds to me like you guys have more of an issue with his wording than his belief system. Surely you don't believe we can logically figure out everything in scripture?

Again, I don't know much about Max Lucado, but I still haven't seen anything that is blatently wrong. When taken in totality, that statement in the OP is very strong concerning the divinity of Christ. Do you have anything more concrete about him believing Jesus is not an eternal being? Besides, how can one crucified before the foundations of the earth come into being at his birth?

Again, it looks to me as though you guys are trying to find something in the wording that doesn't appear to be there.

I'd expound a bit more if this thread were moved to Bible Chat, but will just say I agree with the points Sue has raised thus far....

Brother Mark
Jan 24th 2008, 03:32 AM
I'd expound a bit more if this thread were moved to Bible Chat, but will just say I agree with the points Sue has raised thus far....

Fair enough. ;)

jeffreys
Jan 24th 2008, 04:03 AM
My husband and I have been invited to sing with another church's choir for their Easter musical. It is called "3:16" and is based on Max Lucado's book of that same title. I was listening to the CD in the car when I heard this:

"Jesus alone is the monogenetic Son of God, because only Christ has God's genes or genetic makeup... When parents beget or conceive a child, they transfer their DNA to the newborn. Jesus shares God's DNA. Jesus isn't begotten in the sense that he began but in the sense that he and God have the same essence, eternal life span, unending wisdom, and tireless energy. Every quality we attribute to God, we can attribute to Jesus."

Do you notice anything missing? He compares Jesus as the son of God and him sharing God's DNA much the same as a human child gets their parents DNA transferred him or her. He says Jesus is like God in that he shares his DNA (parent/child) and his qualities. But, there is a distinct separation here, that I see, between "God" and "Jesus" as though Jesus is not God but is merely the Son of God. Do you see that, too?

Does anyone know whether or not Max Lucado believes in the diety of Christ - that he is God, not just the Son of God?

Lucado is a church of Christ (non-instrumental) preacher.

He's as straight-up, right down the line conservative Christian as you'll find.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 24th 2008, 04:23 AM
Good digging! I was hoping that you'd see this on your own! :saint:

Look, Max loves Jesus. There is no doubt about that. He also, through his gift of story-telling, helped completely change my outlook on God and life in some very, very dark years. I'm am not always plum-lined with his theology. But God used this brother-in-Christ to speak very deeply to me then. I don't read much of his stuff now because I have a need for more theological depth in my life. But God most certainly uses Max's willingness to be a servant to affect the lives of others.

While there are certainly those who need to be "put out of the church" for heresy, Max hardly fits that bill.

Thirst
Jan 24th 2008, 05:58 AM
Look, Max loves Jesus. There is no doubt about that. He also, through his gift of story-telling, helped completely change my outlook on God and life in some very, very dark years. I'm am not always plum-lined with his theology. But God used this brother-in-Christ to speak very deeply to me then. I don't read much of his stuff now because I have a need for more theological depth in my life. But God most certainly uses Max's willingness to be a servant to affect the lives of others.

While there are certainly those who need to be "put out of the church" for heresy, Max hardly fits that bill.

Absolutely agree.

JesusLovesYou
Jan 24th 2008, 07:08 AM
My husband and I have been invited to sing with another church's choir for their Easter musical. It is called "3:16" and is based on Max Lucado's book of that same title. I was listening to the CD in the car when I heard this:

"Jesus alone is the monogenetic Son of God, because only Christ has God's genes or genetic makeup... When parents beget or conceive a child, they transfer their DNA to the newborn. Jesus shares God's DNA. Jesus isn't begotten in the sense that he began but in the sense that he and God have the same essence, eternal life span, unending wisdom, and tireless energy. Every quality we attribute to God, we can attribute to Jesus."

Do you notice anything missing? He compares Jesus as the son of God and him sharing God's DNA much the same as a human child gets their parents DNA transferred him or her. He says Jesus is like God in that he shares his DNA (parent/child) and his qualities. But, there is a distinct separation here, that I see, between "God" and "Jesus" as though Jesus is not God but is merely the Son of God. Do you see that, too? Good eye. I would say that's blasphemy! Funny how we can complicate the Word.:(


Does anyone know whether or not Max Lucado believes in the diety of Christ - that he is God, not just the Son of God?I'm not sure. Lucado's writings are kinda sensational. I like some of his older writings. I also enjoyed an Easter Cantata Lucado narrated in the early 90s called He's alive. I've heard a lot of Christians plug that 3:16 book recently, but I haven't read it. Your discernment makes me have a heads-up on reading it. Thank you.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 08:41 AM
More quotes from "3:16":

"Salvation belongs to our God. I know because He saved me. And God will be salvation to you, too. 'Those are his arms you feel. Trust him. That is his voice you hear. Believe him. Allow the only decision maker in the universe to comfort you. Life at times appears to fall to pieces, seems irreparable. But it's going to be okay. How can you know? Because God so loved the world. And,

Since he has no needs, you cannot tire him.
Since he is without age, you cannot lose him.
Since he has no sin, you cannot corrupt him.

"If God can make a billion galaxies, can't he make good out of our bad and sense out of our faltering lives? Of course he can. He is God. He not only flies the plane, but he knows the passengers and" He "has a special place for those who are sick and ready to get home."

"The word whoever is right in the middle of John 3:16. Whoever unfurls 3:16 as a banner for the ages. Whoever unrolls the welcome mat of heaven to humanity. Whoever invites the world to God.

"Jesus could have so easily narrowed the scope, changing whoever to whatever. But he used no qualifier. The pronoun is wonderfully indefinite. After all, who isn't a whoever?

"The word sledgehammers racial fences and dynamites social classes. It bypasses gender borders and surpasses ancient traditions. Whoever makes it clear: God exports grace worldwide. For those who attempt to restrict it, Jesus has a word: Whoever."

This is followed by a song by M.W. Smith called "Come tothe Cross":

Mourner, wherever you are
Wherever you are at the cross there is room
Tell your burdened heart
Your burdened heart at the cross there is room

Tell it in the Savior’s ear
Cast away your every fear
Only speak and He will hear

Chorus:
Hallelujah, everyone
Everyone can come to the cross
It doesn’t matter what you’ve done
Everyone can come to the cross

Sinner, come today
Come today, at the cross there is room
Blessed hearts for everyone
For everyone can come to the cross

Now a living fountain, see
Open there for you and me
For rich and poor, for burden free

Again, there is a lot of truth in these words but it is what is missing that concerns me. I come away from this feeling as though all one has to do is to "only speak and he will hear" and to trust in his arms and his comfort as though they are already there and that everyone has this; that there is no qualifier; no restriction whatsoever on God's grace. It is all inclusive. Yet...

Acts 3:
17"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

Acts 17:
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."


I was praying about this in my QT this morning and was reading this in Jeremiah 6:10, 13, 14, 16, 17:

To whom can I speak and give warning?
Who will listen to me?
Their ears are closed
so they cannot hear.
The word of the LORD is offensive to them;
they find no pleasure in it.

From the least to the greatest,
all are greedy for gain;
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.
14 They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace.

This is what the LORD says:
"Stand at the crossroads and look;
ask for the ancient paths,
ask where the good way is, and walk in it,
and you will find rest for your souls.
But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'
17 I appointed watchmen over you and said,
'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!'
But you said, 'We will not listen.'

9Marksfan
Jan 24th 2008, 11:57 AM
More quotes from "3:16":

"Salvation belongs to our God. I know because He saved me. And God will be salvation to you, too. 'Those are his arms you feel. Trust him. That is his voice you hear. Believe him. Allow the only decision maker in the universe to comfort you. Life at times appears to fall to pieces, seems irreparable. But it's going to be okay. How can you know? Because God so loved the world. And,

Since he has no needs, you cannot tire him.
Since he is without age, you cannot lose him.
Since he has no sin, you cannot corrupt him.

"If God can make a billion galaxies, can't he make good out of our bad and sense out of our faltering lives? Of course he can. He is God. He not only flies the plane, but he knows the passengers and" He "has a special place for those who are sick and ready to get home."

"The word whoever is right in the middle of John 3:16. Whoever unfurls 3:16 as a banner for the ages. Whoever unrolls the welcome mat of heaven to humanity. Whoever invites the world to God.

"Jesus could have so easily narrowed the scope, changing whoever to whatever. But he used no qualifier. The pronoun is wonderfully indefinite. After all, who isn't a whoever?

"The word sledgehammers racial fences and dynamites social classes. It bypasses gender borders and surpasses ancient traditions. Whoever makes it clear: God exports grace worldwide. For those who attempt to restrict it, Jesus has a word: Whoever."

This is followed by a song by M.W. Smith called "Come tothe Cross":

Mourner, wherever you are
Wherever you are at the cross there is room
Tell your burdened heart
Your burdened heart at the cross there is room

Tell it in the Savior’s ear
Cast away your every fear
Only speak and He will hear

Chorus:
Hallelujah, everyone
Everyone can come to the cross
It doesn’t matter what you’ve done
Everyone can come to the cross

Sinner, come today
Come today, at the cross there is room
Blessed hearts for everyone
For everyone can come to the cross

Now a living fountain, see
Open there for you and me
For rich and poor, for burden free

Again, there is a lot of truth in these words but it is what is missing that concerns me. I come away from this feeling as though all one has to do is to "only speak and he will hear" and to trust in his arms and his comfort as though they are already there and that everyone has this; that there is no qualifier; no restriction whatsoever on God's grace. It is all inclusive. Yet...

Acts 3:
17"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

Acts 17:
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."


I was praying about this in my QT this morning and was reading this in Jeremiah 6:10, 13, 14, 16, 17:

To whom can I speak and give warning?
Who will listen to me?
Their ears are closed
so they cannot hear.
The word of the LORD is offensive to them;
they find no pleasure in it.

From the least to the greatest,
all are greedy for gain;
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.
14 They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace.

This is what the LORD says:
"Stand at the crossroads and look;
ask for the ancient paths,
ask where the good way is, and walk in it,
and you will find rest for your souls.
But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'
17 I appointed watchmen over you and said,
'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!'
But you said, 'We will not listen.'

Great post - and a really important thread! Max Lucado is a classic ecumenical neo-evangelical - subtly VERY dangerous. And no repentance is taught - just a lovey-dovey easy believism that gives people false hope. How very different from the passage we were looking at in our church bible study last night:-

"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?

I wonder how Max Lucado would answer that question? Here's how Jesus answered it:-

And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Hmm - how is it "going to be OK" for them, I wonder?

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

How many who have trusted an easy believism gospel will be saying that when they face Christ?

But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Christ came not just to forgive our sins, but to save us from them:-

"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” Matt 1:21 NKJV

Those who have trusted an easy believism-no repentance gospel (and I was one of them) will simply continue to live in sin - unless they repent...

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." Lk 13:23-28 KJV

How we all need to believe and preach the clear, uncompromising gospel Jesus Himself preached - anything else is a false gospel.....

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 24th 2008, 01:07 PM
Look, Max loves Jesus. There is no doubt about that. He also, through his gift of story-telling, helped completely change my outlook on God and life in some very, very dark years. I'm am not always plum-lined with his theology. But God used this brother-in-Christ to speak very deeply to me then. I don't read much of his stuff now because I have a need for more theological depth in my life. But God most certainly uses Max's willingness to be a servant to affect the lives of others.

While there are certainly those who need to be "put out of the church" for heresy, Max hardly fits that bill.

Hi FB,

Praise God for His grace change within you FB…


Let me ask you a question about your post to me…. Does your experience validate Lucado’s salvation?

And if I were allowed to ask a second and maybe a third question, which is better, to carefully examine words in light of scripture and test them, or to let them pass thinking that a misplaced word here, or a word left out there doesn’t distort the gospel?

I believe that the OP is showing biblical discernment in testing all things, even from those for whom we admire, and if they are wrong, they need to be called out as wrong, so as not to dilute, not to misstate… not to lead astray… whether cognitively or not, the gospel. And if where possible, to even correct… for that is what is within good doctrine.

And the last question, although a bit whimsical, has a meaning of understanding…

How does one cook a frog? :)

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 01:25 PM
Christ came not just to forgive our sins, but to save us from them:-

"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” Matt 1:21 NKJV

Those who have trusted an easy believism-no repentance gospel (and I was one of them) will simply continue to live in sin - unless they repent...

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." Lk 13:23-28 KJV

How we all need to believe and preach the clear, uncompromising gospel Jesus Himself preached - anything else is a false gospel.....

Amen, and amen!! How it breaks my heart when I read watered-down salvation messages that give people a false sense of security and that leaves people chained to their sins. Thank you so much for sharing!

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 01:49 PM
If I may do this here, I think this might be a good place to quote one of my favorite writings of A. W. Tozer. I don't agree 100% with his hard-lined approach against contemporary music and/or methods. I believe God has led many contemporary artists to write beautiful lyrics with great theology and there are many old hymns of the faith that are theologically not sound in their doctrine, but overall, I believe that Tozer has the right idea about what we are talking about here, and he wrote this even before I was born:

The Old Cross And The Newby A.W. Tozer, 1946Man: The Dwelling Place Of God, Published 1966
NOTE: This article first appeared in The Alliance Witness in 1946. It has been printed in virtually every English-speaking country in the world and has been put into tract form by various publishers, including Christian Publications, Inc. It still appears now and then in the religious press.

ALL UNANNOUNCED AND MOSTLY UNDETECTED there has come in modern times a new cross into popular evangelical circles. It is like the old cross, but different: the likenesses are superficial; the differences, fundamental.
From this new cross has sprung a new philosophy of the Christian life, and from that new philosophy has come a new evangelical technique, new type of meeting and a new kind of preaching. This new evangelism employs the same language as the old, but its content is not the same and its emphasis not as before.

The old cross would have no truck with the world. For Adam's proud flesh it meant the end of the journey. It carried into effect the sentence imposed by the law of Sinai. The new cross is not opposed to the human race; rather, it is a friendly pal and, if understood aright, it is the source of oceans of good clean fun and innocent enjoyment. It lets Adam live without interference. His life motivation is unchanged; he still lives for his own pleasure, only now he takes delight in singing choruses and watching religious movies instead of singing bawdy songs and drinking hard liquor. The accent is still on enjoyment, though the fun is now on a higher plane morally if not intellectually.

The new cross encourages a new and entirely different evangelistic approach. The evangelist does not demand abnegation of the old life before a new life can be received. He preaches not contrasts but similarities. He seeks to key into public interest by showing that Christianity makes no unpleasant demands; rather, it offers the same thing the world does, only on a higher level. Whatever the sin-mad world happens to be clamoring after at the moment is cleverly shown to be the very thing the gospel offers, only the religious product is better.

The new cross does not slay the sinner, it redirects him. It gears him into a cleaner and jollier way of living and saves his self-respect. To the self-assertive it says, "Come and assert yourself for Christ." To the egotist it says, "Come and do your boasting in the Lord." To the thrillseeker it says, "Come and enjoy the thrill of Christian fellowship." The Christian message is slanted in the direction of the current vogue in order to make it acceptable to the public.

The philosophy back of this kind of thing may be sincere but its sincerity does not save it from being false. It is false because it is blind. It misses completely the whole meaning of the cross.

The old cross is a symbol of death. It stands for the abrupt, violent end of a human being. The man in Roman times who took up his cross and started down the road had already said goodbye to his friends. He was not coming back. He was going out to have it ended. The cross made no compromise, modified nothing, spared nothing; it slew all of the man, completely and for good. It did not try to keep on good terms with its victim. It struck cruel and hard, and when it had finished its work, the man was no more.

The race of Adam is under death sentence. There is no commutation and no escape. God cannot approve any of the fruits of sin, however innocent they may appear or beautiful to the eyes of men. God salvages the individual by liquidating him and then raising him again to newness of life.

That evangelism which draws friendly parallels between the ways of God and the ways of men is false to the Bible and cruel to the souls of its bearers. The faith of Christ does not parallel the world, it intersects it. In coming to Christ we do not bring our old life up onto a higher plane; we leave it at the cross. The corn of wheat must fall into the ground and die.

We who preach the gospel must not think of ourselves as public relations agents sent to establish good will between Christ and the world. We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, the world of sports or modern education. We are not diplomats but prophets, and our message is not a compromise but an ultimatum.

God offers life, but not an improved old life. The life He offers is life out of death. It stands always on the far side of the cross. Whoever would possess it must pass under the rod. He must repudiate himself and concur in God's just sentence against him.

What does this mean to the individual, the condemned man who would find life in Christ Jesus? How can this theology be translated into life? Simply, he must repent and believe. He must forsake his sins and then go on to forsake himself. Let him cover nothing, defend nothing, excuse nothing. Let him not seek to make terms with God, but let him bow his head before the stroke of God's stern displeasure and acknowledge himself worthy to die.

Having done this let him gaze with simple trust upon the risen Saviour, and from Him will come life and rebirth and cleansing and power. The cross that ended the earthly life of Jesus now puts an end to the sinner; and the power that raised Christ from the dead now raises him to a new life along with Christ.

To any who may object to this or count it merely a narrow and private view of truth, let me say God has set His hallmark of approval upon this message from Paul's day to the present. Whether stated in these exact words or not, this has been the content of all preaching that has brought life and power to the world through the centuries. The mystics, the reformers, the revivalists have put their emphasis here, and signs and wonders and mighty operations of the Holy Ghost gave witness to God's approval.

Dare we, the heirs of such a legacy of power, tamper with the truth? Dare we with our stubby pencils erase the lines of the blueprint or alter the pattern shown us in the Mount? May God forbid. Let us preach the old cross and we will know the old power.

Brother Mark
Jan 24th 2008, 02:00 PM
More quotes from "3:16":

"Salvation belongs to our God. I know because He saved me. And God will be salvation to you, too. 'Those are his arms you feel. Trust him. That is his voice you hear. Believe him. Allow the only decision maker in the universe to comfort you. Life at times appears to fall to pieces, seems irreparable. But it's going to be okay. How can you know? Because God so loved the world. And,

Since he has no needs, you cannot tire him.
Since he is without age, you cannot lose him.
Since he has no sin, you cannot corrupt him.

"If God can make a billion galaxies, can't he make good out of our bad and sense out of our faltering lives? Of course he can. He is God. He not only flies the plane, but he knows the passengers and" He "has a special place for those who are sick and ready to get home."

"The word whoever is right in the middle of John 3:16. Whoever unfurls 3:16 as a banner for the ages. Whoever unrolls the welcome mat of heaven to humanity. Whoever invites the world to God.

"Jesus could have so easily narrowed the scope, changing whoever to whatever. But he used no qualifier. The pronoun is wonderfully indefinite. After all, who isn't a whoever?

"The word sledgehammers racial fences and dynamites social classes. It bypasses gender borders and surpasses ancient traditions. Whoever makes it clear: God exports grace worldwide. For those who attempt to restrict it, Jesus has a word: Whoever."

This is followed by a song by M.W. Smith called "Come tothe Cross":

Mourner, wherever you are
Wherever you are at the cross there is room
Tell your burdened heart
Your burdened heart at the cross there is room

Tell it in the Savior’s ear
Cast away your every fear
Only speak and He will hear

Chorus:
Hallelujah, everyone
Everyone can come to the cross
It doesn’t matter what you’ve done
Everyone can come to the cross

Sinner, come today
Come today, at the cross there is room
Blessed hearts for everyone
For everyone can come to the cross

Now a living fountain, see
Open there for you and me
For rich and poor, for burden free

Again, there is a lot of truth in these words but it is what is missing that concerns me. I come away from this feeling as though all one has to do is to "only speak and he will hear" and to trust in his arms and his comfort as though they are already there and that everyone has this; that there is no qualifier; no restriction whatsoever on God's grace. It is all inclusive. Yet...

Acts 3:
17"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

Acts 17:
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."


I was praying about this in my QT this morning and was reading this in Jeremiah 6:10, 13, 14, 16, 17:

To whom can I speak and give warning?
Who will listen to me?
Their ears are closed
so they cannot hear.
The word of the LORD is offensive to them;
they find no pleasure in it.

From the least to the greatest,
all are greedy for gain;
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.
14 They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace.

This is what the LORD says:
"Stand at the crossroads and look;
ask for the ancient paths,
ask where the good way is, and walk in it,
and you will find rest for your souls.
But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'
17 I appointed watchmen over you and said,
'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!'
But you said, 'We will not listen.'

Who was Max's book written to? That makes a HUGE difference does it not? From my casual reading of your quotes, it appears it was written to those that are broken by sin and see no hope for themselves. They have repented of what they have done already but find no hope. He offers them hope through John 3:16.

As an aside, about taking small passages out of a large book, is repentance mentioned in John 3:16 at all? :hmm:

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 24th 2008, 02:09 PM
Who was Max's book written to? That makes a HUGE difference does it not? From my casual reading of your quotes, it appears it was written to those that are broken by sin and see no hope for themselves. They have repented of what they have done already but find no hope. He offers them hope through John 3:16.

As an aside, about taking small passages out of a large book, is repentance mentioned in John 3:16 at all? :hmm:

In context to the OP:


My husband and I have been invited to sing with another church's choir for their Easter musical. It is called "3:16" and is based on Max Lucado's book of that same title. I was listening to the CD in the car when I heard this:

"Jesus alone is the monogenetic Son of God, because only Christ has God's genes or genetic makeup... When parents beget or conceive a child, they transfer their DNA to the newborn. Jesus shares God's DNA. Jesus isn't begotten in the sense that he began but in the sense that he and God have the same essence, eternal life span, unending wisdom, and tireless energy. Every quality we attribute to God, we can attribute to Jesus."

Do you notice anything missing? He compares Jesus as the son of God and him sharing God's DNA much the same as a human child gets their parents DNA transferred him or her. He says Jesus is like God in that he shares his DNA (parent/child) and his qualities. But, there is a distinct separation here, that I see, between "God" and "Jesus" as though Jesus is not God but is merely the Son of God. Do you see that, too?

Does anyone know whether or not Max Lucado believes in the diety of Christ - that he is God, not just the Son of God?

The messaging challenges conventional protestant doctrinal wisdom about who Jesus is...

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 02:10 PM
Who was Max's book written to? That makes a HUGE difference does it not? From my casual reading of your quotes, it appears it was written to those that are broken by sin and see no hope for themselves. They have repented of what they have done already but find no hope. He offers them hope through John 3:16.

As an aside, about taking small passages out of a large book, is repentance mentioned in John 3:16 at all? :hmm:

I agree that there is a message of hope to the broken-hearted in at least part of what he has said, but the "hope" message is still watered-down.

It is true that John 3:16 merely uses the word "believe" but then I would not build the salvation message just on that one verse alone unless I were to use supporting scripture to explain the meaning of the word "believe." It is dangerous theology to build doctrine out of one verse of scripture, is it not? Certainly he can use John 3:16 as his focal point from which to begin but then build on it using other scriptures that teach the true meaning of "belief" for the Bible says that even the demons believe and they shudder and that many will say to him on that day "Didn't we do 'such and such' in your name?" And, he is going to tell them he never knew them.

Brother Mark
Jan 24th 2008, 02:14 PM
I agree that there is a message of hope to the broken-hearted in at least part of what he has said, but the "hope" message is still watered-down.

It is true that John 3:16 merely uses the word "believe" but then I would not build the salvation message just on that one verse alone unless I were to use supporting scripture to explain the meaning of the word "believe." It is dangerous theology to build doctrine out of one verse of scripture, is it not? Certainly he can use John 3:16 as his focal point from which to begin but then build on it using other scriptures that teach the true meaning of "belief" for the Bible says that even the demons believe and they shudder and that many will say to him on that day "Didn't we do 'such and such' in your name?" And, he is going to tell them he never knew them.

You're right about the demons. But they aren't brokenhearted either. Like I said before, if we take just Galatians or just James we will only get half the picture. Both books are required for a full understanding. Yet, Galatians was only written to the Galatians. Why did Paul only write half the picture to them? Because of the condition they were in. The audience matters. We hit hard the area where the lie resides in them with a strong focus. Bible writers did the same exact thing. I would even hesitate to use only one book by Max, if it is written like the quotes you have above, to say he is out of line. You can find the same kind of stuff written by Charles Spurgeon but with different words. Why? Because they are writing to those that are broken over their sin and are needing a savior to accept them. Max is focusing on the repenting towards God. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see so far.

I think much more research would need to be done before we can say this guy is teaching false things. If we hold him to that standard, then why not say the same about Paul for the book of Galatians? Because we know what Paul wrote in other books too.

9Marksfan
Jan 24th 2008, 02:34 PM
If I may do this here, I think this might be a good place to quote one of my favorite writings of A. W. Tozer. I don't agree 100% with his hard-lined approach against contemporary music and/or methods. I believe God has led many contemporary artists to write beautiful lyrics with great theology and there are many old hymns of the faith that are theologically not sound in their doctrine, but overall, I believe that Tozer has the right idea about what we are talking about here, and he wrote this even before I was born:

The Old Cross And The Newby A.W. Tozer, 1946Man: The Dwelling Place Of God, Published 1966
NOTE: This article first appeared in The Alliance Witness in 1946. It has been printed in virtually every English-speaking country in the world and has been put into tract form by various publishers, including Christian Publications, Inc. It still appears now and then in the religious press.

ALL UNANNOUNCED AND MOSTLY UNDETECTED there has come in modern times a new cross into popular evangelical circles. It is like the old cross, but different: the likenesses are superficial; the differences, fundamental.
From this new cross has sprung a new philosophy of the Christian life, and from that new philosophy has come a new evangelical technique, new type of meeting and a new kind of preaching. This new evangelism employs the same language as the old, but its content is not the same and its emphasis not as before.

The old cross would have no truck with the world. For Adam's proud flesh it meant the end of the journey. It carried into effect the sentence imposed by the law of Sinai. The new cross is not opposed to the human race; rather, it is a friendly pal and, if understood aright, it is the source of oceans of good clean fun and innocent enjoyment. It lets Adam live without interference. His life motivation is unchanged; he still lives for his own pleasure, only now he takes delight in singing choruses and watching religious movies instead of singing bawdy songs and drinking hard liquor. The accent is still on enjoyment, though the fun is now on a higher plane morally if not intellectually.

The new cross encourages a new and entirely different evangelistic approach. The evangelist does not demand abnegation of the old life before a new life can be received. He preaches not contrasts but similarities. He seeks to key into public interest by showing that Christianity makes no unpleasant demands; rather, it offers the same thing the world does, only on a higher level. Whatever the sin-mad world happens to be clamoring after at the moment is cleverly shown to be the very thing the gospel offers, only the religious product is better.

The new cross does not slay the sinner, it redirects him. It gears him into a cleaner and jollier way of living and saves his self-respect. To the self-assertive it says, "Come and assert yourself for Christ." To the egotist it says, "Come and do your boasting in the Lord." To the thrillseeker it says, "Come and enjoy the thrill of Christian fellowship." The Christian message is slanted in the direction of the current vogue in order to make it acceptable to the public.

The philosophy back of this kind of thing may be sincere but its sincerity does not save it from being false. It is false because it is blind. It misses completely the whole meaning of the cross.

The old cross is a symbol of death. It stands for the abrupt, violent end of a human being. The man in Roman times who took up his cross and started down the road had already said goodbye to his friends. He was not coming back. He was going out to have it ended. The cross made no compromise, modified nothing, spared nothing; it slew all of the man, completely and for good. It did not try to keep on good terms with its victim. It struck cruel and hard, and when it had finished its work, the man was no more.

The race of Adam is under death sentence. There is no commutation and no escape. God cannot approve any of the fruits of sin, however innocent they may appear or beautiful to the eyes of men. God salvages the individual by liquidating him and then raising him again to newness of life.

That evangelism which draws friendly parallels between the ways of God and the ways of men is false to the Bible and cruel to the souls of its bearers. The faith of Christ does not parallel the world, it intersects it. In coming to Christ we do not bring our old life up onto a higher plane; we leave it at the cross. The corn of wheat must fall into the ground and die.

We who preach the gospel must not think of ourselves as public relations agents sent to establish good will between Christ and the world. We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, the world of sports or modern education. We are not diplomats but prophets, and our message is not a compromise but an ultimatum.

God offers life, but not an improved old life. The life He offers is life out of death. It stands always on the far side of the cross. Whoever would possess it must pass under the rod. He must repudiate himself and concur in God's just sentence against him.

What does this mean to the individual, the condemned man who would find life in Christ Jesus? How can this theology be translated into life? Simply, he must repent and believe. He must forsake his sins and then go on to forsake himself. Let him cover nothing, defend nothing, excuse nothing. Let him not seek to make terms with God, but let him bow his head before the stroke of God's stern displeasure and acknowledge himself worthy to die.

Having done this let him gaze with simple trust upon the risen Saviour, and from Him will come life and rebirth and cleansing and power. The cross that ended the earthly life of Jesus now puts an end to the sinner; and the power that raised Christ from the dead now raises him to a new life along with Christ.

To any who may object to this or count it merely a narrow and private view of truth, let me say God has set His hallmark of approval upon this message from Paul's day to the present. Whether stated in these exact words or not, this has been the content of all preaching that has brought life and power to the world through the centuries. The mystics, the reformers, the revivalists have put their emphasis here, and signs and wonders and mighty operations of the Holy Ghost gave witness to God's approval.

Dare we, the heirs of such a legacy of power, tamper with the truth? Dare we with our stubby pencils erase the lines of the blueprint or alter the pattern shown us in the Mount? May God forbid. Let us preach the old cross and we will know the old power.

Wow! What a prophet! Hard to believe that this was written over 60 years ago, long before Oral Roberts and Billy Graham were on the scene! This could have been written yesterday and would still have sounded as fresh!

Thanks for posting this! :)

Fallenbrooke
Jan 24th 2008, 02:56 PM
How does one cook a frog? :)

Kill it first. ;)

People write for different reasons and for different seasons of a persons life. I hardly think Max is intent on slowly adding wood to the fire under the pot in order to slowly cause a person to lose their Salvation.

Max believes in the Cross of Christ. He underscores Christ's deity. And he teaches that one can only be saved through faith in Christ. Isn't that the Gospel? He is also quite fond of the story of the harlot to whom Christ says "go and sin no more". I have no reason to believe, based on the totality of what I have read in his books, that he believes repentance is unimportant.

I really think this witch hunt is pointless. It is threads like these which lead a person to live in fear and cross out from their lists many authors whom God might use to help water a thirsty heart (along side the Word).

There was a word Christ used for folks who sow fear into the hearts of others under the auspices of "discernment" and "prophesy".

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 03:01 PM
You're right about the demons. But they aren't brokenhearted either. Like I said before, if we take just Galatians or just James we will only get half the picture. Both books are required for a full understanding. Yet, Galatians was only written to the Galatians. Why did Paul only write half the picture to them? Because of the condition they were in. The audience matters. We hit hard the area where the lie resides in them with a strong focus. Bible writers did the same exact thing. I would even hesitate to use only one book by Max, if it is written like the quotes you have above, to say he is out of line. You can find the same kind of stuff written by Charles Spurgeon but with different words. Why? Because they are writing to those that are broken over their sin and are needing a savior to accept them. Max is focusing on the repenting towards God. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see so far.


Let's examine that for a moment. Let me quote some verses from both Galatians and James and let's see if they are really all that different:



Gal. 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.




Gal. 5:13-14: You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."




Gal. 5:16-17: 16: So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.




Gal. 5:24-25: Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.




Gal. 6:7-10: Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturewill reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.


Everyone of these verses from Galatians involves faith expressing itself through action. That is what James says, too:



James 1:12: Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.




James 1:19-21: My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.




James 2:14-24: What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.




James 4:4-10: You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."
7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.


I see no opposing ideas between Galatians and James. They both teach faith expressing itself through action.

Brother Mark
Jan 24th 2008, 03:03 PM
People write for different reasons and for different seasons of a persons life.
.
.
.
I have no reason to believe, based on the totality of what I have read in his books, that he believes repentance is unimportant.


Those were two appropriate sentences. Use the truth like an arrow to pierce the lie of the enemy. When one believes they cannot be forgiven, one preaches grace and whosoever. When one believes he is OK in his sin, one preaches repentance. The condition of the audience matters greatly when ministering with the Lord.

The totality of his books, and his messages would give us a better view. For nothing I have seen written so far makes me go "Oh, he is wrong in what he is saying", for it seems a partial picture. Partial pictures are, by default, incomplete.

Brother Mark
Jan 24th 2008, 03:08 PM
I see no opposing ideas between Galatians and James. They both teach faith expressing itself through action.


There not opposing but they emphasize different things. Paul said it this way...

Gal 2:16

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
KJV

He even uses Abraham as an example.

Gal 3:5-7

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
KJV

And yet, James said it was works that made Abraham righteous.

James 2:21-22

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
KJV

Two sides of the same coin. Both true and accurate but one written to those that were thinking their works would make them grow and mature and the other to one who thought faith without works was enough.

But the point is, without the complete scriptures, we can't know the whole truth with just one book of the bible. It takes the entire book to know all the doctrine God would have us know.

Theophilus
Jan 24th 2008, 03:09 PM
...I really think this witch hunt is pointless. It is threads like these which lead a person to live in fear and cross out from their lists many authors whom God might use to help water a thirsty heart (along side the Word).

There was a word Christ used for folks who sow fear into the hearts of others under the auspices of "discernment" and "prophesy".

I think witch hunt is a little strong...but whatever.

I stand by what I said about "spiritual DNA" being a subject fraught with potential for some dodgy ideas. If Max is climbing on board the mainstream buzzword/doctrine wagon, he shouldn't be. If he's not, then good. :)

The main point here is that someone is questioning something they've read, and are putting it under a microscope. Nothing wrong with that.

That being said, I've been moved to tears by some of his writing, and I doubt he's promoting false doctrine. Still, as someone who writes about God and such, we should examine what he's saying. He doesn't get a "bye" just because he's popular, or a best-selling author.

Bottom line: I won't stop reading Max Lucado because of this thread...but I will continue to weigh what he's writing against Scripture...just like I always have. I won't let my affection for his writing override Scriptural truth, if it would ever come to that.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 24th 2008, 03:17 PM
Thank you all so much for your comments. You have answered my questions and then some. We are not going to all see eye to eye on this subject. The last poster had some good advice. It is scriptural, too:

I Thes 5:19-21: Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 24th 2008, 03:34 PM
I think witch hunt is a little strong...but whatever.

I stand by what I said about "spiritual DNA" being a subject fraught with potential for some dodgy ideas. If Max is climbing on board the mainstream buzzword/doctrine wagon, he shouldn't be. If he's not, then good. :)

The main point here is that someone is questioning something they've read, and are putting it under a microscope. Nothing wrong with that.

That being said, I've been moved to tears by some of his writing, and I doubt he's promoting false doctrine. Still, as someone who writes about God and such, we should examine what he's saying. He doesn't get a "bye" just because he's popular, or a best-selling author.

Bottom line: I won't stop reading Max Lucado because of this thread...but I will continue to weigh what he's writing against Scripture...just like I always have. I won't let my affection for his writing override Scriptural truth, if it would ever come to that.


Exactly ....

Fallenbrooke
Jan 24th 2008, 03:47 PM
I think witch hunt is a little strong...but whatever.

I stand by what I said about "spiritual DNA" being a subject fraught with potential for some dodgy ideas. If Max is climbing on board the mainstream buzzword/doctrine wagon, he shouldn't be. If he's not, then good. :)

The main point here is that someone is questioning something they've read, and are putting it under a microscope. Nothing wrong with that.

That being said, I've been moved to tears by some of his writing, and I doubt he's promoting false doctrine. Still, as someone who writes about God and such, we should examine what he's saying. He doesn't get a "bye" just because he's popular, or a best-selling author.

Bottom line: I won't stop reading Max Lucado because of this thread...but I will continue to weigh what he's writing against Scripture...just like I always have. I won't let my affection for his writing override Scriptural truth, if it would ever come to that.

Nothing wrong at all with putting to the test the things we take in. It's prudent. And I'm thrilled that you are strong enough to continue reading material though some call it into question. But there are others who don't. On my van pool there is a new Christian and she is forever asking for clarification about what she hears. For instance, she believed that J.I Packer was a cultist because another believer told her that he teaches a doctrine of demons. J. I. Packer???

This is what really irks me - when I see the nasty, rotten fruit of people who are supposed to be believers (present company excluded) telling people what they can and cannot read. They are like like the guy who never really experienced power in his life becoming a police officer. Shiny new badge, sparkling, silver revolver and a mesmerizing flashing light bar. "Whatever will I do with my time?" It ignites my ire more than most other things. I strongly believe that the Holy Spirit, if He has called a person to Himself, will lead a person in the right direction - if that person truly has the desire to draw closer to God through study.

I don't think that's the case (to the extreme anyway) in this thread but it certainly is a signpost pointing to that road. One of my favorite songs from the rock band, Petra says it best:

Everybody look there's a new bandwagon in town
Hop on board and let the wind carry you around
Seems like there's not enough to keep us busy till the Lord comes back
Don Quixote's gotta have another windmill to attack

(Chorus)
Another witch hunt looking for evil wherever we can find it
Off on a tangent, hope the Lord won't mind it
Another witch hunt, takin' a break from all our gospel labor
On a crusade but we forgot our saber

There's a new way to spend all our energies
We're up in arms instead of down on our knees
Walkin' over dollars trying to find another dime
Never mind the souls 'cause we really haven't got the time

So send out the dogs and tally ho
Before we sleep tonight we've got miles to go
No one is safe, no stone's left unturned
And we won't stop until somebody gets burned
Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Brothers

Gard
Jan 24th 2008, 04:00 PM
I've always found Max Lucado's teaching to be sound. But admittedly, I haven't read much of his writings in recent years, mainly due to my own difficulties with some of the Church of Christ belief system. But i did read his book "The Applause of Heaven" many years ago and it made quite an impact on me at the time...very uplifting. That book helped me to see God as a Heavenly Father deeply in love with His children rather than a stern old man on a throne.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 24th 2008, 04:13 PM
That book helped me to see God as a Heavenly Father deeply in love with His children rather than a stern old man on a throne.

And it is only that realization which will lead one to repentance.

Lyndie
Jan 25th 2008, 04:12 PM
Just because cetain words aren't written down on a page doesn't mean I cannot glean a complete idea from what is written.
Example-

"Kelley put a hat and boots on and got in the car and went to the hardware store to get the parts to fix the sink in thier home, as Dianne had been asking that the repairs be done."

Now, most would automatically think that Kelley is the husband from what is written, even though Kelley can be a man or woman's name. I also think, imo, that it's a bit insulting to think most people couldn't figure it out on thier own. Or it could be this is just another 'bash the famous preacher/author thread'.

IBWatching
Jan 25th 2008, 05:58 PM
Max does believe in the diety of Christ. 3:16 is the only book I have not yet read. But it's rampant throughout his other works. It sounds as if he is simply trying to put the difficulty of the oneness of God and Christ in physical terms...which can go badly on most fronts.

Agreed on all points. Max Lucado is Church of Christ. Aside from other theological differences, I am confident that the CoC Believes in the Full and Absolute Deity of Christ, just as the NT teaches.

In regards to using physical terms to describe Jesus' relationship to the Father, I read a comment once that a good way to approach Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses is to tell them that "Jesus is the begotten Son of God. God begets God just as humans beget humans, etc. Thus Jesus is God"

After examining it more closely, I could see that you will cause yourself more problems than its worth by using such tactics.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 05:22 AM
Ok, so I decided to do some research on Max's comments on Jesus being the "monogenetic" Son of God and him having "God's genes or genetic makeup" and God's DNA being transferred to Jesus, etc., and that search led me to Joel Osteen who teaches something similar as far as I have gathered so far and this teaching is listed as "new age."

So, I did a search on Max Lucado and Joel Osteen together and found that Max Lucado has recommended several of Joel Osteen's books. Now, I am just beginning to research this Joel Osteen, but there does seem to be a lot of controversy about him. Anyway, I found this quote of Max Lucado with regard to one of Joel Osteen's books, Your Best Life Now:

"Our Lord uses Joel Osteen to lift my eyes, lighten my step, and brighten my heart. May God use this book to do the same for you."

—Max Lucado, Bestselling Author and Pastor

Source: http://www.faithfulreader.com/reviews/0446532754-about.asp

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 05:52 AM
More Research: I want to challenge my fellow bloggers to do something most evangelicals won’t do: speak up. I want you to post something. I want you to send that post to other bloggers. Send those posts to evangelical leaders, magazines and reporters. Send them to the publisher of Osteen’s book. Send them to pastors, elders and staff members. Send them to World and ask why Joel Osteen’s abandonment of the Gospel of Christ and the cross isn’t front page news. Send those posts to Max Lucado and John Maxwell and ask why they have endorsed a ministry that purposely avoids mentioning Jesus Christ, but eagerly embraces a different message. Send those posts to Christianity Today, Relevant, Boundless, Discipleship Journal and anyplace else you can think of.

Source: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/outing-joel-osteen-a-challenge-to-the-evangelical-blogosphere

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 06:58 AM
Emerging church? My research is now leading me to the connection between Max Lucado and the Emerging Church, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen and others who all seem to be part of this new movement. I'm still working my way through. Any links or information on the "Emerging Church" would be most helpful.

Gard
Jan 26th 2008, 02:13 PM
Joel Osteen and others are very good at preaching "Gospel Lite"....

God without His Holiness...
Forgiveness of sins without accountability or personal change...
Claiming Jesus as Saviour without taking up the cross...

I haven't seen any sign yet of Max Lucado embracing this in his own teachings yet. I do get his daily e-mail message and so far they have been biblically sound.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 26th 2008, 02:51 PM
Ok, so I decided to do some research on Max's comments on Jesus being the "monogenetic" Son of God and him having "God's genes or genetic makeup" and God's DNA being transferred to Jesus, etc., and that search led me to Joel Osteen who teaches something similar as far as I have gathered so far and this teaching is listed as "new age."

So, I did a search on Max Lucado and Joel Osteen together and found that Max Lucado has recommended several of Joel Osteen's books. Now, I am just beginning to research this Joel Osteen, but there does seem to be a lot of controversy about him. Anyway, I found this quote of Max Lucado with regard to one of Joel Osteen's books, Your Best Life Now:

"Our Lord uses Joel Osteen to lift my eyes, lighten my step, and brighten my heart. May God use this book to do the same for you."

—Max Lucado, Bestselling Author and Pastor

Source: http://www.faithfulreader.com/reviews/0446532754-about.asp



Excellent digging, CFS... and done without my help or prodding... :lol: Now that you self-discovered this, and found Purpose Driven through the emergent church though Osteen, two things will happen, first there will be those who will rise up against you for this claim and defend these men and their works based on experience and personal appreciation and not based on what 'gospel' they preach... So stand firm in good doctrine...

The second thing is keep discerning.



Here is an interesting discourse between Osteen and Larry King that is quite revealing to me about Osteen's doctrinal understanding and teachings...

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/03/lkl.01.html

And here is one of many of my posts regarding this discourse with King...

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=551238&postcount=113


So buckle down, for folks will not like what you are finding nor on my comments of support... :lol: Just preach the truth....

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 03:26 PM
Joel Osteen and others are very good at preaching "Gospel Lite"....

God without His Holiness...
Forgiveness of sins without accountability or personal change...
Claiming Jesus as Saviour without taking up the cross...

I haven't seen any sign yet of Max Lucado embracing this in his own teachings yet. I do get his daily e-mail message and so far they have been biblically sound.

Well, I read through his quotes in "3:16" and I read some of "Experiencing the Heart of Jesus" this morning and I can tell you that what I see is a person who is telling people that they can come to Jesus with their hurts, fears, failures, messups, etc. and they don't have to worry or fear because everything is going to be ok and they can count on Jesus' promise of salvation. It is a "Don't worry, be happy" message in both books - at least what I've read of them so far. There is no call for repentance; no turning from sin; no taking up your cross and following Christ. They can just come to Jesus as they are and he'll save them - no restrictions; no requirements. It is a message that says that no matter where you are in life; no matter how you are living your life; be happy and don't worry because Jesus will save you.

If you do your homework, you will see that he is very much a part of the "Emergent" church which uses "mysticism" and "new age" theology and is a precursor to a one-world religion. He hosts these types of conferences in his church, he shows up at them as a speaker and his writings reveal that he has at least begun to adopt this "new age" philosophy into his teaching.

I was praying about my research this morning, inquiring of God and I read right where I had last left off in my reading in Jeremiah 7. This is how God views Max Lucado's teaching:

False Religion Worthless
1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2 "Stand at the gate of the LORD's house and there proclaim this message:
" 'Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the LORD. 3 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, "This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!" 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.


9 " 'Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, "We are safe"-safe to do all these detestable things? 11 Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD.

12 " 'Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. 13 While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. 14 Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your fathers. 15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your brothers, the people of Ephraim.'

16 "So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?

20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.

21 " 'This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.'
27 "When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. 28 Therefore say to them, 'This is the nation that has not obeyed the LORD its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips. 29 Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the LORD has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 03:29 PM
Excellent digging, CFS... and done without my help or prodding... :lol: Now that you self-discovered this, and found Purpose Driven through the emergent church though Osteen, two things will happen, first there will be those who will rise up against you for this claim and defend these men and their works based on experience and personal appreciation and not based on what 'gospel' they preach... So stand firm in good doctrine...

The second thing is keep discerning.



Here is an interesting discourse between Osteen and Larry King that is quite revealing to me about Osteen's doctrinal understanding and teachings...

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/03/lkl.01.html

And here is one of many of my posts regarding this discourse with King...

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=551238&postcount=113


So buckle down, for folks will not like what you are finding nor on my comments of support... :lol: Just preach the truth....

Thank you for those links. I will check them out. I will speak the words God gives me to speak even to the death, if necessary.

Mograce2U
Jan 26th 2008, 04:27 PM
I think these verses express the phenomenon that is going on:

(Isa 50:10-11 KJV) Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. {11} Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

(Jer 3:9 KJV) And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

(Jer 23:32 KJV) Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

(2 Cor 1:17-20 KJV) When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay? {18} But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. {19} For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. {20} For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The new Evangelicals have bought into the idea that they can build a kingdom for themselves under the banner of "Jesus". It is not a new idea but one the devil has used many times before. Balaam, the Nicolaitins, Korah, and Jezebel are the examples from scripture. It is a doctrine of demons that the world can find a happy home in church and hear the word of God as a lovely song -

(Ezek 33:31-33 KJV) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they show much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. {32} And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. {33} And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.

They are turning "Jesus" into an idol that their own hands have created and this is who they offer to the people to worship. It is no surprise that they find their comradery with the Popes who first came up with the same idea. Nor is it any surprise that they fight against the sword of the Lord's mouth - His word, to do so.

Gard
Jan 26th 2008, 04:54 PM
Okay, maybe I am being corrected. I just received this Lucado e-mail this morning, and take strong disagreement with the following...

"Christ, however, gifts you with a finished work. He fulfilled the law for you. Bid farewell to the burden of religion. Gone is the fear that having done everything, you might not have done enough. You climb the stairs, not by your strength, but his. God pledges to help those who stop trying to help themselves."

Maybe I am taking things out of context, or just not getting the point...but I have a problem with that statement. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am still learning. But that statement would seem to say that it is okay to stay put in your comfy chair and God will do it all.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 04:54 PM
Saul, before Damascus, was seeking out followers of The Way. He was far more zealous than all of us combined. So let's drop the "I'm-a-soldier-for-Christ" charade and get back to the business of sharing His Love with those who need it. Repentance is a bi-product of feeling Christ's Love...not the way to it. You are going about this backwards. Jesus loved the harlot and showed compassion to her and spared her from stoning BEFORE he told her to "go and sin no more".

Don't be haters.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 04:58 PM
God pledges to help those who stop trying to help themselves."

Stand down...take a deep breath...everything is going to be alright. This statement in true in context. He is talking about those who try to earn their Salvation and subconsciously try to put God in the position of having to help us because we did something to merit help. That is pride. A sin.

Max is not suggesting we do whatever we want or just sit by and wait for God to take us to Heaven. It is a statement of surrender. We do everything righteous OUT OF LOVE for Christ. Not in order to receive it.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 05:13 PM
Okay, maybe I am being corrected. I just received this Lucado e-mail this morning, and take strong disagreement with the following...

"Christ, however, gifts you with a finished work. He fulfilled the law for you. Bid farewell to the burden of religion. Gone is the fear that having done everything, you might not have done enough. You climb the stairs, not by your strength, but his. God pledges to help those who stop trying to help themselves."

Maybe I am taking things out of context, or just not getting the point...but I have a problem with that statement. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am still learning. But that statement would seem to say that it is okay to stay put in your comfy chair and God will do it all.

That is basically the message that is being portrayed in what I have read of Max Lucado's, Rick Warren's, Joel Osteen and others of like-kind's writings. You can come to God in all your sin and be loved, accepted and he will save you. That is what I'm hearing, anyway.

RoadWarrior
Jan 26th 2008, 05:18 PM
Emerging church? My research is now leading me to the connection between Max Lucado and the Emerging Church, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen and others who all seem to be part of this new movement. I'm still working my way through. Any links or information on the "Emerging Church" would be most helpful.

Sue have you seen this thread?
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=111047

The Novelist is in the midst of the fray - you might have something in your research that will be of help to him.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 05:20 PM
That is basically the message that is being portrayed in what I have read of Max Lucado's, Rick Warren's, Joel Osteen and others of like-kind's writings. You can come to God in all your sin and be loved, accepted and he will save you. That is what I'm hearing, anyway.

Are you suggesting that is NOT what happens? If so, we are all up a creek. Let me know when you approach God without your sin and I will bow to Christ AND you.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 05:25 PM
Okay, maybe I am being corrected. I just received this Lucado e-mail this morning, and take strong disagreement with the following...

"Christ, however, gifts you with a finished work. He fulfilled the law for you. Bid farewell to the burden of religion. Gone is the fear that having done everything, you might not have done enough. You climb the stairs, not by your strength, but his. God pledges to help those who stop trying to help themselves."

Maybe I am taking things out of context, or just not getting the point...but I have a problem with that statement. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am still learning. But that statement would seem to say that it is okay to stay put in your comfy chair and God will do it all.

On the flip side, he does have some truth in his statement, as well. We can't do it in our own strength. We can only live this Christian life in Christ's strength, not our own. We must guard against works-based faith, because the Bible definitely preaches against that. But, I've read enough, not just this statement alone, to tell me that there is an underlying message that says that God does everything and we do nothing.

I believe what we see in the church today are two extremes. One says that we earn our salvation through works and the other is that we do nothing about our salvation and that not even repentance is required on our behalf and that God does it all no matter what condition we are in spiritually. Both are wrong. While it is true that we do nothing to "earn" our salvation, it does not mean nothing is required of us - by grace you are saved THROUGH faith, but this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works so that no one should boast.

So, it is not that nothing is required of us, but that even the ability to change and to repent is a gift from God. It is not something we can muster up in our own strength. We have to be so careful that in trying not to ere by not teaching works-based salvation that we misunderstand the true meaning of the word "faith" as both Galatians and James has put it - faith is faith in action. If there is no action behind the "faith" then it is not faith. The Bible definitely teaches that faith involves turning from our sin, but this modern teaching does not teach that.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 05:27 PM
I think Osteen preaches a crossless gospel. But lets also consider, he is not called to preach the gospel to the lost. He is called to encourage. He has some things that are not right, but is everything he says not right? Olsteen would be far better off if he had the five fold ministry in his church where the prophet and teacher could balance him. Unfortunately, I think he has moved into error. But at the same time, I am not ready to simply throw him out as an unbeliever either.

At the risk of many stones... consider this, if God spoke to you through a false prophet, would you listen?

Still, people would do well to be careful of listening to those that preach a crossless gospel. For us, the power of God is found in the cross. It is a necessity not only to be saved by, but to live by. The cross is a minister of grace (the power of God) to us who believe, but foolishness to those that don't. Unfortunately, pharisees abuse the cross by crucifying any who sin, while the saducees ignore it and believing this life is all that matters.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 05:27 PM
Are you suggesting that is NOT what happens? If so, we are all up a creek. Let me know when you approach God without your sin and I will bow to Christ AND you.

The emphasis was not on the coming to Christ in all our sin, but rather that what is being taught is that Christ will love you and accept you and that you can receive salvation and still remain in your sin. that is the danger of what is being taught - no repentance necessary for salvation teaching.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 05:29 PM
I think Osteen preaches a crossless gospel. But lets also consider, he is not called to preach the gospel to the lost.

We are ALL called to preach the gospel to the lost.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 05:31 PM
The emphasis was not on the coming to Christ in all our sin, but rather that what is being taught is that Christ will love you and accept you and that you can receive salvation and still remain in your sin. that is the danger of what is being taught - no repentance necessary for salvation teaching.

I haven't seen that taught, but would like to see some examples of it if it is there. Keep in mind, I will most likely give him the benefit of the doubt in his words until they become clearly wrong.

For instance, some people repent of their sin but cannot let go before Jesus. I would tell that person to come to Christ and he will free them of their sin. As the song says "Just as I am"... Repentance means a change of mind about sin. From what little I have seen of Max's books, they are written to those that HATE their sin but have not yet conquered it fully. One does not love Christ with his whole heart and love his sin too. But one can love Jesus and be broken and in bondage before coming to full freedom in the Lord. It is my impression, that Max ministers to the latter.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 05:32 PM
The emphasis was not on the coming to Christ in all our sin, but rather that what is being taught is that Christ will love you and accept you and that you can receive salvation and still remain in your sin. that is the danger of what is being taught - no repentance necessary for salvation teaching.

I don't think that is what is being taught. Max uses countless Scripture passages to encourage his readers...to read the Bible. He even says as much. If the Holy Spirit has stirred a person's heart enough to want to read a Christian author, one must assume that he will also lead that person to read His Word. Which will then lead that person to hunger after knowing God and getting clarification on what he reads.


Remember that God is first and foremost in charge of leading us to Him. We cannot come to Him otherwise. Max stirs the heart. He is an encourager. That is his calling. There are others who will do the more unpleasant work of convicting a person to repentance. That's why we are all a Family.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 05:34 PM
We are ALL called to preach the gospel to the lost.

Not in the sense I was referring to. While we all will witness at times, some are more gifted for it than others. We do not ALL do this in the same way or with the same fervor or same gifting.

It is true that ALL of us are to be teachers as well, but only some are "called" to teach.

RoadWarrior
Jan 26th 2008, 05:34 PM
.....
At the risk of many stones... consider this, if God spoke to you through a false prophet, would you listen?


Isn't this an oxymoron? God would not speak through a false prophet, would he? Do you have a biblical example?


The emphasis was not on the coming to Christ in all our sin, but rather that what is being taught is that Christ will love you and accept you and that you can receive salvation and still remain in your sin. that is the danger of what is being taught - no repentance necessary for salvation teaching.

Sue I think you are right on in the contrast between the two extremes being taught in today's Christian community. While both have elements of truth, both have misunderstandings of God and the gospel. And I heartily agree with you here. This teaching is faulty to the extreme.

Jesus came to deliver us FROM sin, not to bless it and say go ahead and do what you want. So thousands of Americans are walking around with a so-called "ticket to heaven" while continuing to walk in sin and they do not know how to be delivered from that sin.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 05:35 PM
We are ALL called to preach the gospel to the lost.

The Gospel of Christ is not repentance. It is Love...which leads to repentance. That's what makes is Good News.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 05:41 PM
Isn't this an oxymoron? God would not speak through a false prophet, would he? Do you have a biblical example?

As a matter of fact I do. :cool:


John 11:47-53

47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, "What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48 "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation." 49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish." 51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him.
NASU

It just so happened that the false prophet that year was also high priest. Because of his position, God spoke to the nation through him but he was wrong about Jesus which made him a false prophet.

Now, I don't advocate listening to false prophets at all. We need to be very, very careful. But at the same time, God does use them for his purposes. Balaam might be another example but I am not sure if he was really saved or not.

Gard
Jan 26th 2008, 05:41 PM
There is certianly nothing wrong with being an encourager, and Joel Osteen is wonderful at that. I myself have enjoyed some of his sermons, especially his humor. But he does accept the title of "Pastor"...and that position carries much more responsibility than just encouraging believers.

As for Max Lucado, I do believe that most of his teachings are valid, however, there does seem to be a type of "worldliness" creeping in.

All of this serves to reinforce in me that the final authority is the Word.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 05:44 PM
The Gospel of Christ is not repentance. It is Love...which leads to repentance. That's what makes is Good News.

Close. For a son, love leads to repentance. But without fear of death, the lost will not come to God. It is the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom. For this reason, God told Jonah to preach a hard word to Ninevah. It is also the fear of the Lord that will "keep a man from evil". But for all who repent, it is the hope of kindness that will lead them to repentance. The love of the Lord is a powerful motivator for those that are his and experience his love.

We just need to be wise enough to know which way to preach and to whom.

RoadWarrior
Jan 26th 2008, 05:49 PM
As a matter of fact I do. :cool:


John 11:47-53

47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, "What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48 "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation." 49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish." 51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him.
NASU

It just so happened that the false prophet that year was also high priest. Because of his position, God spoke to the nation through him but he was wrong about Jesus which made him a false prophet.

Now, I don't advocate listening to false prophets at all. We need to be very, very careful. But at the same time, God does use them for his purposes. Balaam might be another example but I am not sure if he was really saved or not.

I'm sorry I'm a bit dense here, but how do you know that he was a false prophet?

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 05:50 PM
All of this serves to reinforce in me that the final authority is the Word.

Exactly. And when we (not you specifically) declare open season on authors who are doing their bit (though perhaps not as thoroughly as they should) we are denying a person who knows nothing of the Bible a conduit to it. We are also not trusting the Holy Spirit in our lives to lead us into all Truth.

I used to be terrified to read anything that wasn't the Bible because I was tender in my journey to honestly exploring God. But then when I finally did read stuff the Spirit would show me things that were contrary to His Word and things which magnified it...within the same book. That helped me not only to have confidence that I would be shown any grievous errors but that it was OK to trust this Spirit that I could not see.

And that has dynamically changed my relationship with Christ. It trust Him now to sort out the bad bits from the good ones. If Max is in error, God will confront Him eventually.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 05:51 PM
I'm sorry I'm a bit dense here, but how do you know that he was a false prophet?

Because he plotted against Jesus and did not recognize him as God. He then set about trying to kill him. That makes him false in my book.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 05:53 PM
Close. For a son, love leads to repentance. But without fear of death, the lost will not come to God. It is the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom. For this reason, God told Jonah to preach a hard word to Ninevah. It is also the fear of the Lord that will "keep a man from evil". But for all who repent, it is the hope of kindness that will lead them to repentance. The love of the Lord is a powerful motivator for those that are his and experience his love.

We just need to be wise enough to know which way to preach and to whom.

Even still, repentance is not the Fear of the Lord...it is a bi-product of it. I would submit that Love is also the Fear of the Lord. It is God's Love for the lost which will cause Him to make an appearance to them which would bring about that Holy Fear. God's Love was still first. The woman at the well was not a believer (nor was she even Hebrew). Christ showed His Love to her FIRST...then repentance came.

RoadWarrior
Jan 26th 2008, 05:57 PM
..

At the risk of many stones... consider this, if God spoke to you through a false prophet, would you listen?

...

Now I have the answer. No, I would not listen. Caiaphas was not only prophesying that Jesus would die but also was encouraging the scribes and pharisees to plot His death.

So, anyone who listened to this false prophet, and followed him, would be participating in the killing of Christ. Bad choice, to follow a false prophet!

So far, you are lending validity to Sue's concerns.

Do you have any other examples?

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 05:58 PM
Even still, repentance is not the Fear of the Lord...it is a bi-product of it. I would submit that Love is also the Fear of the Lord. It is God's Love for the lost which will cause Him to make an appearance to them which would bring about that Holy Fear. God's Love was still first. The woman at the well was not a believer (nor was she even Hebrew). Christ showed His Love to her FIRST...then repentance came.

True enough for some examples in scripture. But God didn't show love to Ninevah first, he simply gave them a warning and it worked! We need to discern from the Lord what words to speak to whom. Had Jonah went to Ninevah and preached love, they might have continued in their sin. But that wasn't the word the Lord gave to him.

When they heard the warning, the fear of the Lord entered their heart and with it, hope that he would be merciful. It's not all one or the other my friend. It all depends on where that person is with the Lord. The enemy will try to get them in one ditch or the other.

As for the woman at the well, her whole life had been a search for love. She had five husbands and had finally given up on marriage and was living with a man. (At least it seems implied that is the case.) God knowing she had searched for love, offered it to her. She had been seeking satisfaction in all the wrong places. Jesus heard what the Father said concerning her and acted accordingly. We would be wise to do the same. But this same Jesus preached "Woe" to the Pharisees and to some cities.

Gard
Jan 26th 2008, 05:59 PM
Exactly. And when we (not you specifically) declare open season on authors who are doing their bit (though perhaps not as thoroughly as they should) we are denying a person who knows nothing of the Bible a conduit to it. We are also not trusting the Holy Spirit in our lives to lead us into all Truth.

I used to be terrified to read anything that wasn't the Bible because I was tender in my journey to honestly exploring God. But then when I finally did read stuff the Spirit would show me things that were contrary to His Word and things which magnified it...within the same book. That helped me not only to have confidence that I would be shown any grievous errors but that it was OK to trust this Spirit that I could not see.

And that has dynamically changed my relationship with Christ. It trust Him now to sort out the bad bits from the good ones. If Max is in error, God will confront Him eventually.


That is what occurred to me as I was typing my last response. I admit I am a bit touchy when it comes to questionable doctrine as my first experience with bible teaching when i first came to Christ back in '85 was the "Prosperity Gospel". It was preached everywhere, and I swallowed it all. Then, when things didn't work out, instead of questioning what I was being taught I questioned God. That led me to turning my back on Him for many years. I know better now, but I tend to react when i sense a possible perversion of the Word. That's why I always ask for other opinions, to make sure I am not reacting to something that isn't there.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 06:00 PM
Now I have the answer. No, I would not listen. Caiaphas was not only prophesying that Jesus would die but also was encouraging the scribes and pharisees to plot His death.

So, anyone who listened to this false prophet, and followed him, would be participating in the killing of Christ. Bad choice, to follow a false prophet!

So far, you are lending validity to Sue's concerns.

Do you have any other examples?

But the question was not will you follow a false prophet, but rather if God spoke through him would you listen to the word God gave you through the false prophet.

Granted, it was a tricky question. We still hold to the word spoken by Caiaphas that it was better that Jesus died for us than that we all perish. But we don't follow Caiaphas. We follow Jesus, but the word God gave Caiaphas is still valid isn't it.

RoadWarrior
Jan 26th 2008, 06:04 PM
That is what occurred to me as I was typing my last response. I admit I am a bit touchy when it comes to questionable doctrine as my first experience with bible teaching when i first came to Christ back in '85 was the "Prosperity Gospel". It was preached everywhere, and I swallowed it all. Then, when things didn't work out, instead of questioning what I was being taught I questioned God. That led me to turning my back on Him for many years. I know better now, but I tend to react when i sense a possible perversion of the Word. That's why I always ask for other opinions, to make sure I am not reacting to something that isn't there.

Gard, you are "spot on" with this example. It happened to thousands of us. And the problem is, it is still happening to people who swallow the false teachings, whatever they are.

There's another thread on the board about a man in the US who claims to be Jesus Christ in the second coming. People are throwing themselves at his feet, giving him their money, etc. If we do not teach truth, then people become conditioned to believe a lie.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 06:09 PM
That is what occurred to me as I was typing my last response. I admit I am a bit touchy when it comes to questionable doctrine as my first experience with bible teaching when i first came to Christ back in '85 was the "Prosperity Gospel". It was preached everywhere, and I swallowed it all. Then, when things didn't work out, instead of questioning what I was being taught I questioned God. That led me to turning my back on Him for many years. I know better now, but I tend to react when i sense a possible perversion of the Word. That's why I always ask for other opinions, to make sure I am not reacting to something that isn't there.

I know what you mean! For this reason, trials will come upon us so that the lies we believe can come to the surface. The dross can then be taken off and our faith purified. We see through a glass darkly, and as such, we are deceived in some things. Thank God for the trials that help purify our faith.

Having said that, some lies are so egrarious (spelling is bad), as RW pointed out with the guy down in S. Fl. that we know to avoid that man all together. Other lies are so tasty, we want to believe them until we get burned. Lies are one of the most powerful tools of the enemy but truth is even more powerful.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 06:09 PM
That's why I always ask for other opinions, to make sure I am not reacting to something that isn't there.

As well you should! But it seems to me you have a solid, discerning spirit (the one Christ actually lends you...not any you actually have ;)) Of course we should be calling out into public discourse blatant heresy (like prosperity teaching) because it is damaging to Christians who are hurting. But I believe Max helps open a door to Grace and as a result genuine, Spirit-enabled repentance. Because we can't eliminate sin from our lives on our own. It is a Love response. If we really loved someone...hurting them by wronging them is the last thing we would want to do. It is at the level of desire that true repentance comes about.

Gard
Jan 26th 2008, 06:10 PM
Gard, you are "spot on" with this example. It happened to thousands of us. And the problem is, it is still happening to people who swallow the false teachings, whatever they are.

There's another thread on the board about a man in the US who claims to be Jesus Christ in the second coming. People are throwing themselves at his feet, giving him their money, etc. If we do not teach truth, then people become conditioned to believe a lie.

That is my fear when it comes to questionable teaching....that someone new in the faith, as I was, will accept it as truth without testing it against the Word. I have no wish for anyone to go through what I went through all those years.

Gard
Jan 26th 2008, 06:14 PM
I know what you mean! For this reason, trials will come upon us so that the lies we believe can come to the surface. The dross can then be taken off and our faith purified. We see through a glass darkly, and as such, we are deceived in some things. Thank God for the trials that help purify our faith.

Having said that, some lies are so egrarious (spelling is bad), as RW pointed out with the guy down in S. Fl. that we know to avoid that man all together. Other lies are so tasty, we want to believe them until we get burned. Lies are one of the most powerful tools of the enemy but truth is even more powerful.

Oh how I fell for the lie. I won't even talk about the life I led after that disappointment. But praise God He welcomed me back with open arms!

Gard
Jan 26th 2008, 06:16 PM
As well you should! But it seems to me you have a solid, discerning spirit (the one Christ actually lends you...not any you actually have ;)) Of course we should be calling out into public discourse blatant heresy (like prosperity teaching) because it is damaging to Christians who are hurting. But I believe Max helps open a door to Grace and as a result genuine, Spirit-enabled repentance. Because we can't eliminate sin from our lives on our own. It is a Love response. If we really loved someone...hurting them by wronging them is the last thing we would want to do. It is at the level of desire that true repentance comes about.

I see your point, and as I stated earlier, I have not read much of his work other than the one book I mentioned. I need to read and research more before I can make an informed decision.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 06:20 PM
Oh how I fell for the lie. I won't even talk about the life I led after that disappointment. But praise God He welcomed me back with open arms!

I went through something similar my friend. I felt as though God had abandoned me. I never bought into the prosperity gospel, but I did have some pretty big lies in me. When I thought he had abandoned me, I fell into some deep sin. My spirit was deeply wounded. Yet, God in his mercy, pulled me out. I am so thankful I went through that time. I wish I had responded differently, I really do! But I would not have all my earthly dreams fulfilled and miss out on what I learned of Him and His kingdom as a result of my dreams going up in flames.

It was all worth it and will be even more so in eternity. I thank God he did not leave me in the pit of lies. He could have made my life turn out better and I would have praised him for it. But I would rather know him and his ways now, even if it means a little drudgery in the nasty now and now.

I appreciate your testimony my friend.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 06:26 PM
As for the woman at the well, her whole life had been a search for love.

That's true of every sinner. Sin is nothing more than resistance (in the form of pride which leads to every other sin) to the Love that God has always had for us. God came to us "while we were yet sinners" and died. That is the Gospel. Love first. That's all I am saying. And Nineveh never received the Gospel.

Gard
Jan 26th 2008, 06:30 PM
I went through something similar my friend. I felt as though God had abandoned me. I never bought into the prosperity gospel, but I did have some pretty big lies in me. When I thought he had abandoned me, I fell into some deep sin. My spirit was deeply wounded. Yet, God in his mercy, pulled me out. I am so thankful I went through that time. I wish I had responded differently, I really do! But I would not have all my earthly dreams fulfilled and miss out on what I learned of Him and His kingdom as a result of my dreams going up in flames.

It was all worth it and will be even more so in eternity. I thank God he did not leave me in the pit of lies. He could have made my life turn out better and I would have praised him for it. But I would rather know him and his ways now, even if it means a little drudgery in the nasty now and now.

I appreciate your testimony my friend.

Same here Brother. There is nothing worse than feeling that the Creator of the Universe has either betrayed you or considers you unworthy of His attention. But in the end, it led me to a faith that relies on the Word of God only. And who knows, maybe that is the journey I had to make to be where I am now.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 06:39 PM
That's true of every sinner. Sin is nothing more than resistance (in the form of pride which leads to every other sin) to the Love that God has always had for us. God came to us "while we were yet sinners" and died. That is the Gospel. Love first. That's all I am saying. And Nineveh never received the Gospel.

But they did receive LIFE because of what was preached to them. A time and a season for everything my friend. That's the point I am making. Preaching love first doesn't work for everyone. There is also a time to preach "Woe unto you". It is hard to understand that others are not made as we ourselves are made. To the broken hearted, and downtrodden, love is often the first word the Lord will speak. To the proud and arrogantly rebellious, he preaches warnings. Take a look at his word to Nebachednezer. He sent a warning and after it came to pass, we see that ole Neb repented and began to praise God. To the brokenhearted, repentance concerning sin has often already occurred and to them, a message of love is warranted. But to those whom sin has not yet broken, stern warnings often are the word God has.

It is both. Get in the ditch of warnings only or love only and we miss the full gospel. For this reason, Jesus said "I only speak what the Father tells me to speak". Notice, Jesus did not have the same word for each person he spoke to, though his doctrine never changed, the word he spoke and what he spoke did.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 06:49 PM
It is both.

Fair enough. I see where you are coming from. Encouragers have their part and prophets have theirs. But I still believe it is out of Love that God uses both forms of communication to convey the same message.

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 06:52 PM
Fair enough. I see where you are coming from. Encouragers have their part and prophets have theirs. But I still believe it is out of Love that God uses both forms of communication to convey the same message.

Amen! For if God did not love, he would not warn. I think too that often people that wish to warn, instead condemn. But Jesus said he did not come to condemn the world for it was condemned already. Instead he came to save it. God is love and everything he does while we are alive in this world is based on love. He warns us because he loves us. You are absolutely correct about that... It is out of love that God speaks. From the abundance of his heart, he speaks love.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 26th 2008, 06:55 PM
From the abundance of his heart, he speaks love.

Couldn't have said it better than that.

RoadWarrior
Jan 26th 2008, 06:55 PM
That's true of every sinner. Sin is nothing more than resistance (in the form of pride which leads to every other sin) to the Love that God has always had for us. God came to us "while we were yet sinners" and died. That is the Gospel. Love first. That's all I am saying. And Nineveh never received the Gospel.

You are right Fallenbrooke; John 3:16 states that.

But we do need to read "the rest of the story" ...

Jn 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." NKJV

This is the part that we seem to miss to a large extent in today's churches. Now that I have been Born Again, and have the Holy Spirit, what is next? How do I get rid of the practice of evil? How do I expose my deeds to the light so that they can be purged and I can walk in the Spirit?

Oh, and BTW, Nineveh did repent in sackcloth and ashes. It didn't last, but their repentance was pleasing to God.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 09:06 PM
Isn't this an oxymoron? God would not speak through a false prophet, would he? Do you have a biblical example?



Sue I think you are right on in the contrast between the two extremes being taught in today's Christian community. While both have elements of truth, both have misunderstandings of God and the gospel. And I heartily agree with you here. This teaching is faulty to the extreme.

Jesus came to deliver us FROM sin, not to bless it and say go ahead and do what you want. So thousands of Americans are walking around with a so-called "ticket to heaven" while continuing to walk in sin and they do not know how to be delivered from that sin.

Exactly!! They are being given a false sense of security.

testify2U
Jan 26th 2008, 09:07 PM
Wow. I just finished reading all 7 pages of this thread...and it was well worth it. Thanks for all your hard work and study. The research that was done here is very valuable. And I believe that there are some serious nuggets of truth to things that were posted.

Just wanted to say thanks to all who contributed to this...it was thought provoking and really a good reminder to "test all things" against the Word.

Peace and Love!!!

Christsfreeservant
Jan 26th 2008, 09:23 PM
The Gospel of Christ is not repentance. It is Love...which leads to repentance. That's what makes is Good News. The Good News is that Jesus died on the cross to save us from the penalty of and bondage to sin. If all it is is "love" and we are not free from our sin, then that is not love at all - that is cruelty!!

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother (I John 3:7-10).

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did (I John 2:1-6).

So, it is obvious that if someone is truly born of God that person will not continue to live in his sin as he once did, so that means he had to have repented and turned from his sin. That does not mean he will live in sinless perfection, and even the ability to repent and to turn from sin is a gift from God, but he will change; he will turn from his sin or he was not truly born of God. You can't divide "faith" from "repentance". They are equal and the Bible says that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith.

There is a whole lot more I want to share, but don't have the time right now. I'll be back soon.

testify2U
Jan 26th 2008, 09:52 PM
The Good News is that Jesus died on the cross to save us from the penalty of and bondage to sin. If all it is is "love" and we are not free from our sin, then that is not love at all - that is cruelty!!

You can't divide "faith" from "repentance". They are equal and the Bible says that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith.



I will agree with this. And I think that this is what Fallenbrooke is trying to say (please correct me if I'm wrong) is...that the faith comes first...and it is THROUGH that that we can come to the saving grace. But we can't come to saving grace until faith is in place. Then when the faith and saving grace are in place, we can truly understand God's love for us and we begin to repent because God the Holy Spirit convicts us to do that.

However, the danger lies here: in separating the love from the sacrifice. Taking the cross out of the equation completely negates the love. And taking God's expectation for right living out of the equation simply misleads people into believing that God is a pushover. God is holy and just. He is also love. How can God be all of those? That's what makes it so amazing.

But, it is also clear that love IS seperate from repentance. God loves us...no matter what. Even if we're not repentant and we hold onto our sin. But it IS dangerous to preach that as the final word on who God is and what He wants from us. God WANTS us to live FREE from sin. God made a way for that to happen. It happened when Jesus came to earth, at the cross, and in the days to follow it.

Does disobedience and unrepentence take away our salvation?

9Marksfan
Jan 27th 2008, 01:08 AM
I will agree with this. And I think that this is what Fallenbrooke is trying to say (please correct me if I'm wrong) is...that the faith comes first...and it is THROUGH that that we can come to the saving grace. But we can't come to saving grace until faith is in place. Then when the faith and saving grace are in place, we can truly understand God's love for us and we begin to repent because God the Holy Spirit convicts us to do that.

However, the danger lies here: in separating the love from the sacrifice. Taking the cross out of the equation completely negates the love. And taking God's expectation for right living out of the equation simply misleads people into believing that God is a pushover. God is holy and just. He is also love. How can God be all of those? That's what makes it so amazing.

But, it is also clear that love IS seperate from repentance. God loves us...no matter what. Even if we're not repentant and we hold onto our sin. But it IS dangerous to preach that as the final word on who God is and what He wants from us. God WANTS us to live FREE from sin. God made a way for that to happen. It happened when Jesus came to earth, at the cross, and in the days to follow it.

Does disobedience and unrepentence take away our salvation?

Put it this way - a persistently disobedient and unrepentant person has never experienced the goodness and grace of God "which leads to repentance". God will judge those who "obey not the gospel".

Brother Mark
Jan 27th 2008, 01:30 AM
Put it this way - a persistently disobedient and unrepentant person has never experienced the goodness and grace of God "which leads to repentance". God will judge those who "obey not the gospel".

One who practices sin is not born of God. No doubt there. But, one who is in bondage and hates his sin, may just be in a battle and still be a believer. He can be set free once he learns truth.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 27th 2008, 05:04 AM
If all it is is "love" and we are not free from our sin, then that is not love at all - that is cruelty!!

Then I submit you don't know much about Love. You say "if all it is is love" as if love isn't very much. Love frees us from sin. Love is the Truth. The Truth is Christ. Christ is Love. See the pattern?

Sin can't stand in the face of Love. You are brought to repentance (real repentance...not will power) by Love. Unless Christ enables a person to respond to Him..that person cannot respond. It's a package deal, bro. But the Gospel is Love...manifested in the form of a life, a death, a resurrection. Which is responded to (by us) in the form of repentance.

I think you are working to hard.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 27th 2008, 05:15 AM
Ooops. I meant sis, not bro. ;)

Christsfreeservant
Jan 27th 2008, 05:38 AM
Love frees us from sin. Love is the Truth. The Truth is Christ. Christ is Love. See the pattern?

Sin can't stand in the face of Love. You are brought to repentance (real repentance...not will power) by Love. Unless Christ enables a person to respond to Him..that person cannot respond. It's a package deal, bro. But the Gospel is Love...manifested in the form of a life, a death, a resurrection. Which is responded to (by us) in the form of repentance.

I think you are working to hard.

I was responding to your comment that the gospel was love and not repentance and to this discussion about this teaching that is permeating the evangelical church of today that gives people the impression that they have God's love and salvation whether they repent or not.

What I'm seeing is a theology that leaves out the reason Jesus died on the cross for our sins which is to free us from our sin; it removes the cross and makes God out to be a doting grandfather who just showers the child with love no matter what.

Love provides the means for us to be free from sin - Jesus' blood sacrifice for our sin. Love is what draws us to Christ. Love is what even gives us the ability to believe; to have faith; to change. But, if we teach that God loves everyone in such a way that it gives people a license to just continue in their sin and still have God's blessing, that is both false and dangerous theology. That is what I was referring to when I said that about if all we have is love (according to this new teaching), then that is really not love at all.

I have four grown children, four in-law children and now 6 grandchildren. Let's say they are all in a burning building. I have provided the way out by clearing a path for them to escape. So, I go to them in the burning building, tell them I've provided a way out and all they have to do is just hug me and I'll love on them, then they are still going to burn up. True love will walk the children through the burning building to the way out. It will not leave them there to burn up. Do you see my point?

Another example: If I know someone is dying of cancer and I have the cure for cancer and I tell them I have the cure and then I just hug them and tell them everything is going to be ok and to have peace and all this happy, happy don't worry stuff but I never take them by the hand and show them that all they have to do is to lie on the operating table and allow me to perform surgery and then they can be free from the cancer, then I'm not really loving them, am I? I leave them in their cancer.

That is what I'm seeing in the Max Lucado; Rick Warren; Emergent Church approach to salvation. It leaves people in their sin and that is not love.

Colossians 2:11-12: In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 27th 2008, 05:51 AM
Sue, I hear what you are saying. I honestly do. Should Max be doing more to bring people to repentance? Ok, sure. We all should be doing that. But I don't think he is damaging people with his teaching. I really do think he is helping them by letting them know that they don't have to fix themselves BEFORE they go to Christ. In addition, Max really writes to new believers who are finding their faith hard to jump start. Or are struggling in their journeys. I think he is right where he needs to be. Everyone can learn from his words. And they do point to Christ and Scripture. It's not Max's responsibility to save people. That's God's "job". It's Max's responsibility to demonstrate God's Love to them.

Yes, we need to repent. We need to denounce our decisions to walk in a life of darkness. But you can't say that just because repentance isn't at the forefront of Max's teachings that he is teaching another Gospel.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 27th 2008, 05:53 AM
What I'm seeing is a theology that leaves out the reason Jesus died on the cross for our sins which is to free us from our sin; it removes the cross and makes God out to be a doting grandfather who just showers the child with love no matter what.

You're not seeing that from Max. He wrote a book called He Chose the Nails. That pretty much sums it up.

9Marksfan
Jan 27th 2008, 09:41 AM
One who practices sin is not born of God. No doubt there. But, one who is in bondage and hates his sin, may just be in a battle and still be a believer. He can be set free once he learns truth.

Amen! There is a world of difference between loving our sin and always giving in to it and struggling with it yet hating it - good point. But what if they know the truth but seem incapable of applying it?

testify2U
Jan 27th 2008, 10:05 AM
I truly believe that our walk with Christ is a step by step process. It begins with seeing the need for a Savior and the Love of the Father and His desire for us to come to Him. Then we see the provision He made for us at the cross. We then come to trust in that as our Salvation. When that happens, we start to see our sin for what it truly is, and we begin to dislike it because it keeps us from worshipping the One who created us. We cannot expect someone who has just begun a relationship with Christ to really understand the depth of their sinfulness until it is reavealed to him/her by the Holy Spirit. Preaching the love of the Father as a lead-in to people accepting his provision and mercy is not heresy. The next step is to lead them to the cross where they can receive their grace. Then after that, they can begin to eliminate that which binds them.
It's a walk...a constant step by step...and sometimes we see those who spend years just trying to grasp the love portion of it or the grace portion of it before they can step into the repentence.
But for us to decide whether or not they actually received salvation based on their actions is unfair. Only God can see their hearts. Only God knows if they were really serious about their decision for Christ.
Max Lucado's books preach on a number of different aspects of the Good News. As Fallenbrooke has pointed out, while this one focuses on the love, another may focus on the work at the cross, while another may focus on where we go from there...
They are different messages for different steps of our walk. When we need the love and acceptence, there is a message for that. When we need discipline, there is a message for that. When we need salvation from our sin, there is a message for that.
I truly believe that the only book out there that can wrap them all into one is the Bible. And I believe that if you replace your Bible with Max Lucado books or any other book, you're in for a world of hurt. Churches that replace their pew Bibles for The Purpose Driven Church are very misled. But is that bad on the church or bad on Rick Warren? Was his intention for the churches of today to put away their Bibles and follow his book alone? The churches of today could take a CS Lewis book and form a cult based on it...but that's not CS Lewis' fault.
What Max Lucado and many other authors strive to do is to lead people into seeking out that knowledge of the One who loves them ...to dig into the Word and see for themselves.
He puts the Word into a story that many can relate to. But when has he ever asked people to put away their Bibles and focus solely on his authorship of one book?

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 27th 2008, 12:55 PM
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Mark 6:12 They went out and preached that men should repent.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 20:21 solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.


The Gospel of Jesus is includes faith and repentance.


For God's Glory...

Christsfreeservant
Jan 27th 2008, 03:26 PM
You're not seeing that from Max. He wrote a book called He Chose the Nails. That pretty much sums it up.

But, I am! I don't know about the book you just mentioned or when he wrote it, but I have been reading through parts of two of his books and so far I am still seeing "easy believism" being taught. And, I've been doing research, and I'm seeing him connected with many false teachers and teaching and giving approval to them. This greatly concerns me!

More on that later...

Jemma Ash
Jan 27th 2008, 03:35 PM
I have not read the Max Lucado stuff but what I have been reading (all 8 pages!!) there seems to be something wrong with some of the things that he says.
I am basically posting this so that I can follow this conversation which is proving to be very interesting.
Continue to test and go back to God's word.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 27th 2008, 03:36 PM
Let me share something with you the Lord gave me a few months ago, which I believe is a good illustration of what I am talking about here. The Lord speaks to me in dreams much in the same way he gives sermon illustrations to pastors or he spoke in parables in the Bible. He has been speaking loud and clear for the past several years to me (and to many others) concerning the spiritual condition of today's church and its leaders, but for the past year and a half he has been speaking nearly daily on this subject of "easy believism" that is permeating today's church. So, although Max Lucado and the Emergent Church may be new topics for me, the spiritual condition of today's church and its leaders is not new news to me and is very much the passioin of my heart!!

We Love You Jesus… or Not

Tuesday, November 20, 2007, 7:40 a.m. – I woke up with this song in my head:

We Love You Jesus
Greg Long

CHORUS:
We love you Jesus
With all our hearts
Our Lord and Savior
You've been so good to us
We love you Jesus
You are the light in the dark
We'll follow you anywhere
We love you Jesus

Revelation 2:1-7:

To the church in Ephesus
1"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands: 2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

I woke up this morning from three dreams. This is the first of three:

The time period was like 100 years ago. There was this big beautiful house like one of those old southern-style mansions where a family lived. Some visitors came by and I invited them to come inside. They enjoyed their visit and asked if they could come back and/or the people of the house invited them to come back. So, the lady of the house told them she bought a bed for them and put some furniture in a sitting room for them upstairs for when they return.

After the visitors left, I asked to see the room upstairs, so her daughter went to the closet to show me the access to the second floor. It was a small opening in the ceiling of the closet which was off of the hall, but the covering to the opening was painted shut as though it had not been used in a really long time.

Then, it was like in a movie where they show you they are going upstairs but they don’t actually go upstairs. There is a fade with the camera and then the camera pans to another room on the same floor level and they just make you think you are seeing a room upstairs.

I did get to see the room, though. It was like a suite with a room with a bed and a sitting room adjacent to the bedroom. In the bedroom was a bed and perhaps other furniture though I only remember the bed in that room. In the sitting room off of the bedroom was a room full of all wooden furniture that was a deep mahogany (reddish brown hardwood) and of that era. There was a drop-leaf table and a desk in the corner, but the room had too much furniture in it, like the lady had just found a place to store all of her extra furniture. This was the room for her guests. End.

Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening. I believe that in this dream I represent the Lord who invites us into a personal relationship with him. He is the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. In other words, Christ offers strong protection and control of the church and he also is in a position of giving a warning to the church since he is the one who has the power to remove their lampstand (church) from its place in an act of divine judgment.

So, the guests came into the church to visit, they enjoyed their time there in the church and wanted to come back, so the lady of the house (the apostate church) invited them to come back and she promised them that she has an upstairs room and a bed reserved for them upon their return, i.e. she promises them that they have a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ which is being reserved for them in heaven.

Nonetheless, the access to heaven; to that covenant (bed) relationship with Jesus Christ has been painted shut for a very long time, so what she is offering is a false sense of security, i.e. easy believism that says that all one has to do is pray a prayer at an altar and “believe” and he or she has her ticket into heaven regardless of repentance or how he or she lives her life out from that point on. This easy believism is running rampant in our churches.

There is no upper room experience going on in the prayer closet of this church. In place of the upper room relationship with the Lord is man-made religion (all on one level). The Lord is not in a higher position but is at the same level as everything else. He is not Lord and he is not their first love even though when they get together for their praise and worship services they sing as though he is (see song above).

First Love (commentary) is a reference to their inner devotion to Christ that characterized their earlier commitment, like the love of a newly wedded bride for her husband (cf. Eph. 5:22)… Loving devotion to Christ can be lost in the midst of active service.

The sitting room off of this covenant relationship with the Lord is cluttered with the works of the flesh (wood) and the works of man and hard hearts (hardwood). The altar of God (table) has dropped its leaves (the height from which they have fallen), i.e. they are not repenting at the altar of God anymore. So, he is calling on them to repent and to do the things that they did at first.

The Lord is calling out for them to open up the upper room access of their hard hearts that has been painted (false) shut for a long time by repenting, or else they are in great danger of having their lampstand (their effective witness as a church) removed.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 27th 2008, 06:25 PM
I have four grown children, four in-law children and now 6 grandchildren. Let's say they are all in a burning building. I have provided the way out by clearing a path for them to escape. So, I go to them in the burning building, tell them I've provided a way out and all they have to do is just hug me and I'll love on them, then they are still going to burn up. True love will walk the children through the burning building to the way out. It will not leave them there to burn up. Do you see my point?

Another example: If I know someone is dying of cancer and I have the cure for cancer and I tell them I have the cure and then I just hug them and tell them everything is going to be ok and to have peace and all this happy, happy don't worry stuff but I never take them by the hand and show them that all they have to do is to lie on the operating table and allow me to perform surgery and then they can be free from the cancer, then I'm not really loving them, am I? I leave them in their cancer.

That is what I'm seeing in the Max Lucado; Rick Warren; Emergent Church approach to salvation. It leaves people in their sin and that is not love.

Colossians 2:11-12: In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

I read this in my QT this morning from Jeremiah 8:

"Say to them, 'This is what the LORD says:
" 'When men fall down, do they not get up?
When a man turns away, does he not return?

5 Why then have these people turned away?
Why does Jerusalem always turn away?
They cling to deceit;
they refuse to return.
6 I have listened attentively,
but they do not say what is right.
No one repents of his wickedness,
saying, "What have I done?"
Each pursues his own course
like a horse charging into battle.
7 Even the stork in the sky
knows her appointed seasons,
and the dove, the swift and the thrush
observe the time of their migration.
But my people do not know
the requirements of the LORD.
8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
9 The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the LORD,
what kind of wisdom do they have?
10 Therefore I will give their wives to other men
and their fields to new owners.
From the least to the greatest,
all are greedy for gain;
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.
11 They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
"Peace, peace," they say,
when there is no peace.
12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct?
No, they have no shame at all;
they do not even know how to blush.
So they will fall among the fallen;
they will be brought down when they are punished,
says the LORD.
13 " 'I will take away their harvest,
declares the LORD.
There will be no grapes on the vine.
There will be no figs on the tree,
and their leaves will wither.
What I have given them
will be taken from them. ' "
14 "Why are we sitting here?
Gather together!
Let us flee to the fortified cities
and perish there!
For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish
and given us poisoned water to drink,
because we have sinned against him. 15 We hoped for peace
but no good has come,
for a time of healing
but there was only terror.

Commentary on v. 15: "peace. Under the circumstances, a false hope."

testify2U
Jan 27th 2008, 06:34 PM
Christsfreeservant, That is a very vivid piece of scripture. I think I will now bow out of this thread to do some studying...I've got a lot of reading to do. I can't really form a good opinion (even though I have already tried to in this forum) of what's really going on here.
Thanks for all the information. I'm going to go 'see what's up' with this topic.
Peace, brothers and sisters. Be praying for me as I seek out what the Lord has in store for me to learn.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 27th 2008, 06:43 PM
Fair enough. You all go figure out how many ways you can manipulate the word heretic and then throw it at Max as hard as you can and I will keep reading his books whenever I need encouragement and a reminder of how loving my Father is. And I will allow myself to be moved to humility as a result of the staggering Love I know He has for me. And incidentally, I will even share the incites I have learned with others. And I believe, after having been reminded of God's love for them...that they will even be moved to repentance as well.

Happy hunting! ;)

testify2U
Jan 27th 2008, 06:45 PM
Don't you think it's fair for us to find the answers for ourselves rather than just trusting in the judgement of folks we don't even know? I don't think that the sarcastic response is really very necessary.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 27th 2008, 06:57 PM
Sarcastic as it may appear, it is the truth. I wouldn't dream of you taking my word for it. God forbid! (no, that wasn't sarcasm). I would expect that your spirit would testify when it is detecting Love. I would also expect that witch-hunting isn't the kind of thing Believers would involve themselves in unless, of course, there is a real witch in our midst.

testify2U
Jan 27th 2008, 07:08 PM
And I haven't read NEARLY enough of his books, or done NEARLY enough research on any of this to form an educated opinion on it. So, I'm going to do some homework (not go on a witch hunt) to see what I find...with an open mind, a discerning spirit (:pray:please Lord), and the hope of finding that there's nothing to be worried about...as I love the stuff that I HAVE read of Max's.
God Bless.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 27th 2008, 07:14 PM
Fair enough, then Testify. ;)

But I would be remiss if I didn't post this song. It was one of my favorites growing up in church. I will only have it up for a few days so listen when you have the chance.

http://johnsilveronline.com/witchhunt.MP3

Fallenbrooke
Jan 27th 2008, 07:17 PM
I should repost the lyrics as well.

Everybody look there's a new bandwagon in town
Hop on board and let the wind carry you around
Seems like there's not enough to keep us busy till the Lord comes back
Don Quixote's gotta have another windmill to attack

(Chorus)
Another witch hunt looking for evil wherever we can find it
Off on a tangent, hope the Lord won't mind it
Another witch hunt, takin' a break from all our gospel labor
On a crusade but we forgot our saber

There's a new way to spend all our energies
We're up in arms instead of down on our knees
Walkin' over dollars trying to find another dime
Never mind the souls 'cause we really haven't got the time

So send out the dogs and tally ho
Before we sleep tonight we've got miles to go
No one is safe, no stone's left unturned
And we won't stop until somebody gets burned
Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Bro Brothers

testify2U
Jan 27th 2008, 07:20 PM
Thanks for the song, Fallenbrooke. And I want you to realize about me, that I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. And when reading/listening to ANYTHING that's not the Word of God, I try to glean from it the wisdom that's there, and leave behind that which is not necessary. (after all I have a limited number of brain cells for this sort of information!!:P)
May God Bless you today and always, brother.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 27th 2008, 07:25 PM
Thanks for the song, Fallenbrooke. And I want you to realize about me, that I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. And when reading/listening to ANYTHING that's not the Word of God, I try to glean from it the wisdom that's there, and leave behind that which is not necessary. (after all I have a limited number of brain cells for this sort of information!!:P)
May God Bless you today and always, brother.

I believe you. I really think you are objective in your study. Others aren't so. But whatever you find - even if you think there are things missing from his work (and the works of others who are otherwise Scripturally sound) - just keep in mind that those books have only served to enrich my walk with Christ.

I don't think I would get that blessing from books that were in any way heretical. I've read some that made me shake as I read them. And I threw them out (I didn't even resell them or give them away). There are definitely a lot of heretical works floating around. Creepy.

HisBlood
Jan 27th 2008, 07:27 PM
I have read all of Max Lucado's books, including 3:16, and I have to say that his words have encouraged me through some tough times in my life. I have never felt that he has "watered-down" the gospel. I feel that he is showing compassion to a world that responds better to that than hell-fire and brimstone.

We are to be in the world, just not of it. We can't stay in a nice bubble and rail at the people outside that they need to step into our bubble or they'll go to hell. We need to understand all of the world and their stuggles by being in the world rather than outside of it. Yes, we are separated, but that does not mean that we should not reach across the gap to others.

I deeply respect and admire Max Lucado and Rick Warren. They are both great men that do not deserve to be kicked around for a couple of quotes taken out of context.

RoadWarrior
Jan 27th 2008, 07:28 PM
Christsfreeservant, That is a very vivid piece of scripture. I think I will now bow out of this thread to do some studying...I've got a lot of reading to do. I can't really form a good opinion (even though I have already tried to in this forum) of what's really going on here.
Thanks for all the information. I'm going to go 'see what's up' with this topic.
Peace, brothers and sisters. Be praying for me as I seek out what the Lord has in store for me to learn.

Testify2U, seeking is always good.

This is not about Max Lucado, necessarily, but you might want to read Ezekiel 34.

I spent a few years grieving over the state of the church, with tears and anger. I'm past the anger now, but the grief remains.

I especially like the comfort that I found in Ezekiel 34:11-15.

Jemma Ash
Jan 28th 2008, 10:20 AM
Fair enough. You all go figure out how many ways you can manipulate the word heretic and then throw it at Max as hard as you can and I will keep reading his books whenever I need encouragement and a reminder of how loving my Father is. And I will allow myself to be moved to humility as a result of the staggering Love I know He has for me. And incidentally, I will even share the incites I have learned with others. And I believe, after having been reminded of God's love for them...that they will even be moved to repentance as well.

Happy hunting! ;)

What ever happened to looking for comfort in God's Word not in man???? You seem to be praising Max instead of God. Sure he probably has said some good things but you need to be discerning...

beachbum53
Jan 28th 2008, 12:47 PM
I haven't read through all this thread yet, and only have few minutes now but wanted to add my :2cents: I personally really enjoy Max's books~~Especially when I was a new believer, he puts things simple enough to understand. I recall him always saying we are to repent of sin and obey Him. I recall him saying when we realize who God is and His love for man/us that we will be motivated to change our lives. Just so many writings on praising God, worshiping Him, obeying Him, His power, etc. I do believe from what I have read that the gospel is being presented correctly. I have not read 3:16.

"Just like Jesus" has this heading

God loves you just the way you are,
but he refuses to leave you that way.
He wants you to be Just Like Jesus.

9Marksfan
Jan 28th 2008, 01:10 PM
God loves you just the way you are,
but he refuses to leave you that way.
He wants you to be Just Like Jesus.

But is this what the Bible says? I would say that the more biblical approach would be something like this:-

God hated us the way we were and His justice demanded that He condemn us.
But in His love He wanted to reconcile us to Himself.
How could He be consistently just and loving without compromising one of these aspects of His character?
He sent Jesus, who satisfied His justice through His death
And thereby enabled God to be just and the justifer of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Now THAT'S love!!!!!!

Only once we have accepted, understood (even if in part) and believed that, can we go on to look at how Jesus intends to transform our lives.

Yes, sin is a pollution that needs to be cleansed - but first and foremost it is an offence that has to be punished - and Jesus took our punishment for us, so that God could forgive us - our punishment having been taken by Jesus in our place.

Now - does Max EVER major on these truths?!? We have no gospel without them!

beachbum53
Jan 28th 2008, 02:18 PM
But is this what the Bible says? I would say that the more biblical approach would be something like this:-

God hated us the way we were and His justice demanded that He condemn us.
But in His love He wanted to reconcile us to Himself.
How could He be consistently just and loving without compromising one of these aspects of His character?
He sent Jesus, who satisfied His justice through His death
And thereby enabled God to be just and the justifer of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Now THAT'S love!!!!!!

Only once we have accepted, understood (even if in part) and believed that, can we go on to look at how Jesus intends to transform our lives.

Yes, sin is a pollution that needs to be cleansed - but first and foremost it is an offence that has to be punished - and Jesus took our punishment for us, so that God could forgive us - our punishment having been taken by Jesus in our place.

Now - does Max EVER major on these truths?!? We have no gospel without them!

YEP he does


The book is speaking of believers that have already been saved by Jesus’ blood. His whole point is believers have to show Christ’s love in their lives. It is lessons in doing what God commands. He gave us His Spirit to accomplish living like Jesus. He will give us trials or shouts or whispers to conform us to His image. He won’t ‘sit’ by and not change us. Included a few verses from just one chapter on his lessons in being like Jesus.…The whole point of the book is examining Jesus’ character and teaching how to live by Jesus’ example, not by saying you believe and then don’t obey in your daily life at work or home etc.
Don’t have more time now, got to run to doc’s, late.

Philippians 2
5 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-5.htm) Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-6.htm) who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-7.htm) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-8.htm) Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-9.htm) For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-10.htm) so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-11.htm) and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-12.htm) So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-13.htm) for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Ephesians 4
20 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-20.htm) But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-21.htm) if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-22.htm) that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-23.htm) and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-24.htm) and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
25 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-25.htm) Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. 26 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-26.htm) BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-27.htm) and do not give the devil an opportunity. 28 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-28.htm) He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. 29 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-29.htm) Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-30.htm) Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-31.htm) Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 (http://bible.cc/ephesians/4-32.htm) Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Colossians 3
5 (http://bible.cc/colossians/3-5.htm) Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6 (http://bible.cc/colossians/3-6.htm) For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, 7 (http://bible.cc/colossians/3-7.htm) and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. 8 (http://bible.cc/colossians/3-8.htm) But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. 9 (http://bible.cc/colossians/3-9.htm) Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10 (http://bible.cc/colossians/3-10.htm) and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him.

1John 3
1 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-1.htm) See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-2.htm) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-3.htm) And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-4.htm) Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-5.htm) You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-6.htm) No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-7.htm) Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-8.htm) the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-9.htm) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 (http://bible.cc/1_john/3-10.htm) By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 28th 2008, 03:47 PM
You seem to be praising Max instead of God.

You can't be serious. Are you?

Jemma Ash
Jan 28th 2008, 03:52 PM
yes i am serious...

9Marksfan
Jan 28th 2008, 04:16 PM
YEP he does

I accept that that is not the purpose of the book and of course I am pleased that he is emphasising discipleship - but can you point me to where in his writings he emphasises the matters I have referred to?

Lyndie
Jan 28th 2008, 05:31 PM
But is this what the Bible says? I would say that the more biblical approach would be something like this:-

God hated us the way we were and His justice demanded that He condemn us.

Doesn't that thinking contradict John 3;16-17 which says-

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Nowhere in my bible does it say God hated us. Hated our sin, yes, but because He loved us, He sent His Son.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 28th 2008, 05:44 PM
Reading the last 4 or 5 pages, one things seems so obvious...


Will someone throw out the definition of what is the Gospel of salvation, then you will be able to measure each other's words better...???

MY opinion is that there are many definitions as to what is the Gospel, when there should only be one....

So if there is only one Gospel, which is what I see scripture stating, knowing what that one Gospel is can measure everyone and anyone's words...

Christsfreeservant
Jan 28th 2008, 08:57 PM
Reading the last 4 or 5 pages, one things seems so obvious...


Will someone throw out the definition of what is the Gospel of salvation, then you will be able to measure each other's words better...???

MY opinion is that there are many definitions as to what is the Gospel, when there should only be one....

So if there is only one Gospel, which is what I see scripture stating, knowing what that one Gospel is can measure everyone and anyone's words...

I was thinking along those same lines a few days ago and went in search of one definition, but the definitions varied depending upon who was writing it. There are so many varied theological viewpoints on the meaning of the term "gospel." So, I did a word search in a Bible concordance, but even so many of those references did not explain the word "gospel" other than it was obvious it was the message of salvation. I have not had a chance to go back through those verses but that would probably be the best way to go since to try to find one definition of "gospel" other than the words "good news" is difficult to find.

I do know that the first sermon preached on the gospel on the day of Pentecost was by Peter (Acts 2:37-39) and he began with the need to repent and to be baptized. We learn later that "baptism" that saves is not the baptism (circumcision) of the flesh but rather the baptism (circumcision) of the heart. We are not saved by outward forms but by an inward faith. Baptism symbolizes death to the old life and being raised to new life in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:3-8; Col. 2:11-15). It is a cutting away of the flesh.

Yesterday morning I had a dream about this discussion that I believe shows the need for repentance in salvation, but of course, dreams are subject to interpretation. The Lord interprets mine through His Word (through the passage I'm reading for that day), but I realize that even in that, it could be flawed by human error. In other words, I am not claiming that my dream interpretation is without error. But, I do believe that he has given me the understanding of the dream. If you are interested, you can read it at http://bibleforums.org/blog.php?b=517.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 28th 2008, 09:42 PM
Allow me to given another analogy. When we accept Jesus Christ into our lives to be our Lord and Savior; i.e. when we accept his salvation, it is like a woman who accepts an engagement ring from her boyfriend. It is understood by that engagment ring that this will now be an exclusive relationship. She will no longer date other fellas. So, it is a type of turning from single life to a commitment to be with one person only.

From that point on, she will be working feverishly toward her wedding plans for the day she will be with her husband forever. She will think about him, talk with him day and night, tell all her friends about him, etc., and she will keep herself only unto him (though not consimated until the wedding night). It is like the Jewish engagements in the Bible. To break up a Jewish engagement would be to divorce the person.

Nonetheless, so many people go into their relationships with Jesus like many people enter into marriage these days - no real commitment. And, without that commitment, there is really not an engagement. Repentance is like accepting that engagement ring with the understanding that you will now have an exclusive relationship with Jesus Christ and that you will work feverishly to please him in every way; to obey him; to be united with him ultimately in heaven and to forsake all others.

9Marksfan
Jan 28th 2008, 10:01 PM
Doesn't that thinking contradict John 3;16-17 which says-

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Nowhere in my bible does it say God hated us. Hated our sin, yes, but because He loved us, He sent His Son.

Look a couple of verses further down in John 3 and you will find this:-

"..whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him". Jn 3:36b ESV

Now what comfort is there in the love of God if the wrath of God is upon you if you don't believe? We need to know that it has been dealt once and for all, hence the importance of Christ bearing the wrath of God for all who would believe so that "there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ".

As far as God hating us and not just our sin, there are OT verses that make this plain. This is the great mystery - God loved us even when he hated us!

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 03:35 AM
yes i am serious...

Well I'm not sure how to reply to a remark so reactionary. I suppose it just weakens my confidence in the seriousness of future replies from you. Nothing personal. Just a policy. I'm not a man-worshiper. And your incendiary allegations that I am only serve to bolster my belief that Max is on the right track.

testify2U
Jan 29th 2008, 08:41 AM
Nonetheless, so many people go into their relationships with Jesus like many people enter into marriage these days - no real commitment. And, without that commitment, there is really not an engagement. Repentance is like accepting that engagement ring with the understanding that you will now have an exclusive relationship with Jesus Christ and that you will work feverishly to please him in every way; to obey him; to be united with him ultimately in heaven and to forsake all others.

Bingo, but I think this has less to do with books like Max's and more to do with the way the world views commitment. Our society has taken commitment in every area of life and thrown it out the window. "If my job gets boring, I'll just quit." "If my wife gets boring, I'll take a new one." "If my friends don't agree with me, I'll just find different ones." "If God doesn't give me what I want, I'll just leave him on the curb and take up a new religion." I'm convinced that no man can get the attention of our hearts in this condition. It takes the rushing wind of the Holy Spirit's conviction in our lives to realize the deep need we have EVERY DAY for our Savior and His forgiveness.

For some people, Max Lucado's (and others') books serve to open hearts to the convicting of the Holy Spirit. Could he have added a little fire and brimstone in there for a more serious approach at how God sees our hearts? Sure. Necessary? Maybe, maybe not.

I think there are definitely preachers/teachers/authors today that shy away too much from the truth in order to not offend. They will have to answer for that.

We, as followers of Christ, are to be discerning and careful about what we believe in and what we say to other people. I have heard stories of Chaplains that I very much respected giving a person bad advice in a counseling session and undermining another person's attempt to witness to that person. People make mistakes. But to burn them at the stake for it is really not what we're called to do. To send hate mail to them and their publishers, to slander their name to your friends, and get up in front of your church congregation to tear apart a ministry that very well may be blessed by God is a very dangerous thing to do.

Be careful about the way you handle your personal opinions/convictions about another person's ministry. For you will have to answer for that.

In a previous post, someone quoted from Max Lucado's church website belief statement saying it was weak and didn't emphasize repentence or the fact that Jesus is God. Let me post the ENTIRE thing so you can see it for what it really is instead of bits and pieces...taken out of context. Pay close attention to the sections of God and Salvation, as these were mentioned in previous posts as being 'lacking' from their mission statement. Also take a look at the section about the Bible. I believe this pretty much sums it up. The Bible is the final authority in life and doctrine.

The Mission of Oak Hills Church
The Oak Hills Church exists to help seekers of Christ experience God's grace and become fully devoted followers of Christ.
Our Vision and Beliefs
God’s story is a story of love and redemption. The story or message that most clearly shows this redemptive love is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (I John 3:16). Paul says this message is of “first importance” (I Corinthians 15:3). As God reveals his nature through the stories of the Bible, the following teachings emerge as the central core doctrines. These teachings form the core of our beliefs here at Oak Hills.
God
There is one true God, eternally existing in three Persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These are equal and are one God. God created the world out of nothing and by his power he sustains all he has created. (Romans 8:22-25; Ephesians 1:13-14).
Jesus Christ
Jesus was miraculously born of the Virgin Mary (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35) and became flesh and blood (John 1:1-16; 29-34) without ceasing to be God. He lived a sinless life and performed many miracles to confirm his divinity. He died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, paying the debt for our sins (Mark 10:45). On the third day after his death he arose from the dead showing his victory over sin and death (1 Corinthians 15:3-8). He appeared to his disciples and then ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God serving as our mediator.
Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and the Son. He makes people aware of their need for Christ (John 16:8-11, 2 Corinthians 6:11). He indwells and empowers the believer (I John 4:13; Galatians. 5:16-26). His presence in our life is a seal and guarantee that we are God's children (2 Corinthians 1: 21-22). The Holy Spirit gives believers spiritual gifts (talents or an abilities) (1 Corinthians 12:7-11; Romans 12:4-8) to be used to help others.
Baptism
Download "Baptism: a Demonstration of Devotion" (.pdf) (http://www.oakhillschurchsa.org/about/beliefs/baptism.dod.pdf)
Bible
The Bible is the inspired word of God and is the final authority in life and doctrine (2 Timothy 3: 16).
Salvation
Salvation is a free gift of God. The death of Christ on the cross is the only sufficient payment for our sins. All have sinned, but all can be saved. This salvation is available for any who put their trust in Christ as Savior (Romans 3:23, 6:23; John 3:16). Those trusting Christ should repent of sin, confess their faith, and be baptized (Romans 10:9; Acts 2:38).
Church
The church is the body of Christ on earth, empowered by the Holy Spirit to continue the task of reaching the lost and discipling the saved, helping them become fully devoted followers of Christ (Ephesians 4: 1-16).
Christ’s Return
Christ will one day return and judge all people (1Thessalonians 4:13-18). Unbelievers will be separated from God's presence in Hell and believers will be welcomed in God's presence in Heaven.
At Oak Hills we sincerely try to follow the Bible and its teachings. However, our ability to logically figure everything out is not the basis for our acceptability before God. Our salvation is based on what God has done for us through Jesus Christ. What we must be right about is the fact that we cannot be right about everything and are therefore completely dependent on God’s graciousness and mercy.

Jemma Ash
Jan 29th 2008, 09:51 AM
Well I'm not sure how to reply to a remark so reactionary. I suppose it just weakens my confidence in the seriousness of future replies from you. Nothing personal. Just a policy. I'm not a man-worshiper. And your incendiary allegations that I am only serve to bolster my belief that Max is on the right track.

Okay I may have been out of line there...I am sorry.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 29th 2008, 10:44 AM
To send hate mail to them and their publishers, to slander their name to your friends, and get up in front of your church congregation to tear apart a ministry that very well may be blessed by God is a very dangerous thing to do.


Were you directing your remarks specifically at me? And, were these things that you feel I or someone else from here has done? Or, were you giving this as a possible scenario? Because I have sent no one hate mail and I have gotten up in front of no church congregation. I wouldn't want to leave anyone with the impression that you were saying I was doing this.

From my vantage point, I have shared what the Lord has given me to share on here... first began as a question as I was initially being confronted with the Holy Spirit speaking to me that there was something wrong in what Max said in "3:16" and then I began to research it and pray about it and I have shared what the Lord has shared with me as a warning, I believe, to examine the things we are being taught and to check out what we hear because not everything we hear or read is from God. The Bible tells us to test. And, we should test.

I appreciate you sharing the church's doctrinal statement. I had read that, as well, but what a church states as their doctrine and what a pastor teaches may not necessarily be exactly in tune with each other. I know that from experience. I understand that Max has stepped down from his position as senior pastor for health reasons but that there has also been some discussion that he is moving away to some degree from the church's doctrine - could be just in the area of the teaching on baptism for salvation. I don't know.

All I'm saying here is that just because a church has a written doctrinal statement we can not assume that the pastor is teaching everything that the church believes to that same degree. And, I have read several articles that suggest that he is moving away from his church's doctrine and is now going with the Emergent/Emerging Church movement. These are not just speculatory, either. His church has hosted such meetings and he has spoken at them, too. And, he has given written support of Joel Osteen's ministry and his writings, and Joel is not preaching the true gospel.

If you walk away from this discussion with anything, I hope you (everyone) walk away with an understanding that we need to be listening to God, we need to examine carefully the teachings of man, and we need to understand the true meaning of the gospel and the importance of repentance in salvation. When we are reading man's writings, we need to read them carefully, thoughtfully and prayerfully before God, asking the Lord to let us know if something is wrong or what is right, too. But, we need to be spending more time in the Word of God than we are spending in reading the thoughts of man or else we can not be discerning.

Sadly, too many Christians, including Christian leaders and pastors, are spending far too much time reading, studying and following the works of man and far too less time in the Word of God. It comes out in conversations and sermons and in church vision and mission statements and plans, as man is quoted far too often and the Word of God is taking a back seat, in many respects. So many believers are following the gospel of man over God's gospel. The church of today is in really bad shape spiritually. The Lord is speaking much about this. Will we listen?

testify2U
Jan 29th 2008, 11:01 AM
Were you directing your remarks specifically at me? And, were these things that you feel I or someone else from here has done? Or, were you giving this as a possible scenario? Because I have sent no one hate mail and I have gotten up in front of no church congregation. I wouldn't want to leave anyone with the impression that you were saying I was doing this.

Most definitely a possible scenario. Although there was an earlier post suggesting that people send emails, etc. I'm not suggesting that anyone has done this.

[/quote]From my vantage point, I have shared what the Lord has given me to share on here... first began as a question as I was initially being confronted with the Holy Spirit speaking to me that there was something wrong in what Max said in "3:16" and then I began to research it and pray about it and I have shared what the Lord has shared with me as a warning, I believe, to examine the things we are being taught and to check out what we hear because not everything we hear or read is from God. The Bible tells us to test. And, we should test.[/quote]

I totally agree.

[/quote]I appreciate you sharing the church's doctrinal statement. I had read that, as well, but what a church states as their doctrine and what a pastor teaches may not necessarily be exactly in tune with each other. I know that from experience. I understand that Max has stepped down from his position as senior pastor for health reasons but that there has also been some discussion that he is moving away to some degree from the church's doctrine - could be just in the area of the teaching on baptism for salvation. I don't know.

All I'm saying here is that just because a church has a written doctrinal statement we can not assume that the pastor is teaching everything that the church believes to that same degree. And, I have read several articles that suggest that he is moving away from his church's doctrine and is now going with the Emergent/Emerging Church movement. These are not just speculatory, either. His church has hosted such meetings and he has spoken at them, too. And, he has given written support of Joel Osteen's ministry and his writings, and Joel is not preaching the true gospel.

If you walk away from this discussion with anything, I hope you (everyone) walk away with an understanding that we need to be listening to God, we need to examine carefully the teachings of man, and we need to understand the true meaning of the gospel and the importance of repentance in salvation. When we are reading man's writings, we need to read them carefully, thoughtfully and prayerfully before God, asking the Lord to let us know if something is wrong or what is right, too. But, we need to be spending more time in the Word of God than we are spending in reading the thoughts of man or else we can not be discerning.

Sadly, too many Christians, including Christian leaders and pastors, are spending far too much time reading, studying and following the works of man and far too less time in the Word of God. It comes out in conversations and sermons and in church vision and mission statements and plans, as man is quoted far too often and the Word of God is taking a back seat, in many respects. So many believers are following the gospel of man over God's gospel. The church of today is in really bad shape spiritually. The Lord is speaking much about this. Will we listen?[/quote]

This is EXACTLY what I was trying to get at...while I posted the complete version of their church's mission/belief statement, that in no way ends the discussion on whether or not Max Lucado actually preaches on it. And we ALWAYS must be on our guard. Take mans writing/words for what they are...man's not God's. And I appreciate your thoughtful response to what I posted. This was not meant to point a finger at anyone in particular, just to serve as a warning.

testify2U
Jan 29th 2008, 11:19 AM
More Research: I want to challenge my fellow bloggers to do something most evangelicals won’t do: speak up. I want you to post something. I want you to send that post to other bloggers. Send those posts to evangelical leaders, magazines and reporters. Send them to the publisher of Osteen’s book. Send them to pastors, elders and staff members. Send them to World and ask why Joel Osteen’s abandonment of the Gospel of Christ and the cross isn’t front page news. Send those posts to Max Lucado and John Maxwell and ask why they have endorsed a ministry that purposely avoids mentioning Jesus Christ, but eagerly embraces a different message. Send those posts to Christianity Today, Relevant, Boundless, Discipleship Journal and anyplace else you can think of.

Source: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/outing-joel-osteen-a-challenge-to-the-evangelical-blogosphere

I may be misunderstanding this post. Could you elaborate on what your intentions are here?

Christsfreeservant
Jan 29th 2008, 02:01 PM
I may be misunderstanding this post. Could you elaborate on what your intentions are here?

I'm sorry for that misunderstanding. I didn't read it that way. I said more research. I was quoting from something I read on-line that was connecting Max Lucado with Joel Osteen's ministry. In the context of what I had been sharing before and after that, I think it is clear that was my intention, since I never elaborated on what the blogger was saying other than to make that connection.

testify2U
Jan 29th 2008, 02:23 PM
I think that I now understand your intentions better...more of a 'question this' than a 'speak against these people'. Is that what I'm hearing?

testify2U
Jan 29th 2008, 02:25 PM
Was the quote above a quote from the blog mentioned? Or were these your own words? I'm confused. I am under the understanding that YOU said to post/send/and ask these questions. Or are these someone else's words?

Okay, I now see that the above quote comes from the link also posted with it. However, is this how God calls us to confront these people? Or are we to do it in a different way. While the internet may be a "convenient" mode of confrontation, is it the way that the Word calls us to handle it?

VerticalReality
Jan 29th 2008, 02:44 PM
"Jesus Christ



Jesus was miraculously born of the Virgin Mary (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35) and became flesh and blood (John 1:1-16; 29-34) without ceasing to be God. He lived a sinless life and performed many miracles to confirm his divinity. He died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, paying the debt for our sins (Mark 10:45). On the third day after his death he arose from the dead showing his victory over sin and death (1 Corinthians 15:3-8). He appeared to his disciples and then ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God serving as our mediator."
For compared to other protestant churches doctrinal statements it seems to lack Jesus' eternal being... Notice how it opens -- it seems to say that Jesus begins from birth... If anything it could have been worded a bit clearer... Or it was worded exactly they way they intended -- left to the individual believer to add the understanding....

I'm a little late to the convo. here, but this sort of response seems to be excessively picky to me.

It's sounds to me like the only way this church could win in such a situation is to have their doctrinal statement start with "In the beginning . . . " and conclude with Revelation 21:21.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 29th 2008, 03:12 PM
I'm a little late to the convo. here, but this sort of response seems to be excessively picky to me.

It's sounds to me like the only way this church could win in such a situation is to have their doctrinal statement start with "In the beginning . . . " and conclude with Revelation 21:21.

LOL... Picky or precise? And as I am with this statement and what it seems to lack, you are pick of me to say so, so I guess we all are a bit picky... And a bit sarcastic eh? ;)

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 03:16 PM
Okay I may have been out of line there...I am sorry.

It's alright. We disagree and that's fair enough.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 29th 2008, 03:16 PM
Ok, I want to get that quote from that blog in context here for the purpose of clarity, so I will quote my previous post and then the two after the blog quote in question (a partial on the second one):



Ok, so I decided to do some research on Max's comments on Jesus being the "monogenetic" Son of God and him having "God's genes or genetic makeup" and God's DNA being transferred to Jesus, etc., and that search led me to Joel Osteen who teaches something similar as far as I have gathered so far and this teaching is listed as "new age."

So, I did a search on Max Lucado and Joel Osteen together and found that Max Lucado has recommended several of Joel Osteen's books. Now, I am just beginning to research this Joel Osteen, but there does seem to be a lot of controversy about him. Anyway, I found this quote of Max Lucado with regard to one of Joel Osteen's books, Your Best Life Now:

"Our Lord uses Joel Osteen to lift my eyes, lighten my step, and brighten my heart. May God use this book to do the same for you."


—Max Lucado, Bestselling Author and PastorSource: http://www.faithfulreader.com/review...2754-about.asp (http://www.faithfulreader.com/reviews/0446532754-about.asp)




More Research: I want to challenge my fellow bloggers to do something most evangelicals won’t do: speak up. I want you to post something. I want you to send that post to other bloggers. Send those posts to evangelical leaders, magazines and reporters. Send them to the publisher of Osteen’s book. Send them to pastors, elders and staff members. Send them to World and ask why Joel Osteen’s abandonment of the Gospel of Christ and the cross isn’t front page news. Send those posts to Max Lucado and John Maxwell and ask why they have endorsed a ministry that purposely avoids mentioning Jesus Christ, but eagerly embraces a different message. Send those posts to Christianity Today, Relevant, Boundless, Discipleship Journal and anyplace else you can think of.

Source: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/...al-blogosphere (http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/outing-joel-osteen-a-challenge-to-the-evangelical-blogosphere)




Emerging church? My research is now leading me to the connection between Max Lucado and the Emerging Church, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen and others who all seem to be part of this new movement. I'm still working my way through. Any links or information on the "Emerging Church" would be most helpful.




Well, I read through his quotes in "3:16" and I read some of "Experiencing the Heart of Jesus" this morning and I can tell you that what I see is a person who is telling people that they can come to Jesus with their hurts, fears, failures, messups, etc. and they don't have to worry or fear because everything is going to be ok and they can count on Jesus' promise of salvation. It is a "Don't worry, be happy" message in both books - at least what I've read of them so far. There is no call for repentance; no turning from sin; no taking up your cross and following Christ. They can just come to Jesus as they are and he'll save them - no restrictions; no requirements. It is a message that says that no matter where you are in life; no matter how you are living your life; be happy and don't worry because Jesus will save you.

If you do your homework, you will see that he is very much a part of the "Emergent" church which uses "mysticism" and "new age" theology and is a precursor to a one-world religion. He hosts these types of conferences in his church, he shows up at them as a speaker and his writings reveal that he has at least begun to adopt this "new age" philosophy into his teaching...


Ok, do you see the context now? I assumed when I said "more research" and gave a "source" that it would be understood this was a quote from that source. I'm sorry I didn't make it more clear. Again, sorry for that confusion. Sometimes I write too fast.

In context, I think you can see that my point was, well number one to show what my research was finding on the original quote in question (my first post), and then to hopefully make people aware that Max Lucado is supporting, is associated with and is involved with people and with a movement that is false in its teaching. This should raise concern in all of us. We should be asking ourselves why he is involved with a false movement and why he is supporting and aligning himself with false teachers? Why, in his recent writings, is it difficult to find any reference to what God requires of us in thought, word or action and why his message seems to promote this "Don't worry, be happy" philosophy?

To quote someone for research purposes is not an endorsement of what that person is saying. I also quoted what Max said about Joel Osteen and his book and I certainly do not agree with his approval of Joel Osteen.

By the way, my husband showed me where Joel Osteen was preaching on TV Sunday evening, so we checked it out. The whole time he was speaking my heart was pounding within me - the Holy Spirit telling me that this was false, though I could see that for myself. My husband made an interesting observation. He said, "Did you notice how everything is about "me"? It is all about what God can do for us, but nothing about what God requires of us or our heart loving obedient response to what he has done for us." I thought that was a good observation.

And, you know what? That is what I have read in Max's books, too. Now, I have not read every book he has written because I don't read books by men usually. I have in the past and I have used bible studies written by men and women and the one book I have here by Max that I mentioned, other that the "3:16" musical, is a study book with questions and places to answer the questions and scripture, and in both this study book and in "3:16" the gospel is being presented, but only in half. The half that is missing is what our heart response should be to what God has done for us. That should definitely raise concern for us.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 03:46 PM
The half that is missing is what our heart response should be to what God has done for us. That should definitely raise concern for us.

Now we are getting somewhere.

Listen, I understand that Max (and others like him...excluding Joel...for whom I have little to no admiration) writes with one purpose and that repentance isn't a major part of his message. Does that mean he is aligning himself with heretics? As I have said before, a real "falling in Love" with Christ, as you rightly surmised above, will produce a natural response to repentance. Your engagement ring analogy from earlier wasn't a particularly strong one. One makes a conscious effort to put on an engagement ring. Repentance comes by continuing your Love affair with Christ. If you are following Him and are impassioned at every moment, in everything, to come to know Him more...you will have no thought of what things you need to change inside of you. The change is quite automatic.

I also have a bit of a problem with the "research" that you and others may be doing. There are a lot of brothers and sisters out there who are simply bored. They will write anything and then line themselves up with others who feel the same way. Sitting on the internet for a few hours making notes about a particular subject may well be research but it doesn't make it good research. Bloggers, in my opinion, have about a much credibility as high school newspaper editors writing a story about pentagon plans to catch Bin Laden.

To me a heretic is one who believes in another way to Salvation other than Christ, the Cross and His Blood. One who teaches that a person can come to the Father any way but through Christ. If an author were to purposefully leave out the Cross of Christ...then we'd have something to talk about.

VerticalReality
Jan 29th 2008, 03:48 PM
LOL... Picky or precise? And as I am with this statement and what it seems to lack, you are pick of me to say so, so I guess we all are a bit picky... And a bit sarcastic eh? ;)

Yes, picky. There was absolutely nothing in that statement that was biblically inaccurate. It seems like the criticism is simply for the sake of criticizing. I completely understand wanting to make sure folks are biblically sound, but reproving them for not including something that your own personal preference says needs to be there is just subjective criticism. It's criticizing based upon what you think needs to be done and not what is biblically accurate. I could criticize every single teaching that was ever taught if this were the biblical standard.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 29th 2008, 04:30 PM
Now we are getting somewhere.

Listen, I understand that Max (and others like him...excluding Joel...for whom I have little to no admiration) writes with one purpose and that repentance isn't a major part of his message. Does that mean he is aligning himself with heretics? As I have said before, a real "falling in Love" with Christ, as you rightly surmised above, will produce a natural response to repentance. Your engagement ring analogy from earlier wasn't a particularly strong one. One makes a conscious effort to put on an engagement ring. Repentance comes by continuing your Love affair with Christ. If you are following Him and are impassioned at every moment, in everything, to come to know Him more...you will have no thought of what things you need to change inside of you. The change is quite automatic.

I also have a bit of a problem with the "research" that you and others may be doing. There are a lot of brothers and sisters out there who are simply bored. They will write anything and then line themselves up with others who feel the same way. Sitting on the internet for a few hours making notes about a particular subject may well be research but it doesn't make it good research. Bloggers, in my opinion, have about a much credibility as high school newspaper editors writing a story about pentagon plans to catch Bin Laden.

To me a heretic is one who believes in another way to Salvation other than Christ, the Cross and His Blood. One who teaches that a person can come to the Father any way but through Christ. If an author were to purposefully leave out the Cross of Christ...then we'd have something to talk about.

I think we are at a point here, at least from my vantage point, where we need to agree to disagree. I believe repentance is necessary for salvation and that it is not an afterthought or something we do later on as just part of our Christian growth, though it certainly is a continual process of our growth, as well. I do believe Max does teach that we are not to continue in sin as part of our growth experience, but I am still concerned that I don't see that in his presentation of the gospel recently. But, then you would agree with his approach.

To me, Biblically speaking, the cross is two-fold (see my avatar). It is what Christ did for us on the cross and it is our heart response of repentance (by grace we are saved through faith). Why else would Peter have told the people that they needed to repent in order to be saved? And why, when Paul talks about the salvation experience, does he talk about how we died with Christ, were buried with him and were raised to new life in Christ and he spoke of this as a cutting away of the flesh?

At this point, I think each one of us should inquire of the Lord to see what he thinks about all of this. My opinion concerning Max and others and the Emergent Church movement and his involvement in it is merely supported by my research. The Holy Spirit is the one who prompted me that something was wrong and it was the Lord and his Word that confirmed for me that Max was giving people a false sense of security and was dressing the wounds of people as though they were not serious saying "Peace, peace" when there is no peace. It was the Word of God that said that repentance was God's requirement of his people both in the OT and the NT.

Try an experiment: Read through the NT from beginning to end, asking the Lord to show you his requirements of you for salvation. During that time, don't read books written by men. Obey what God shows you. And, then see if you change your stance. You may have already done this. But, if you haven't, I hope you will accept my challenge to see what God says on the subject, because he is the authority.

I think I've said enough. God speed!

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 04:40 PM
The Holy Spirit is the one who prompted me that something was wrong and it was the Lord and his Word that confirmed for me that Max was giving people a false sense of security...

I am quite certain you meant to say that you strongly believe it was the Lord who told you such a thing. Based upon your interpretation of God's Word regarding the subject at hand. And that's just fine by me. I don't think you are doing anyone any harm by holding to your conclusions so fervently. Except perhaps that you may be robbing some of the opportunity to have another part of their lives opened up by the words of another brother in Christ.

I feel obligated to clarify my position (though I find it disheartening that I need to). There is no getting around God's Word. It is the defacto, first-and-foremost Source of counsultation regarding our lives. The Word is Life. But God has also, in His Mercy, chosen to speak to us through the words of His children who also anchor their words to the Source.

We agree, then, to disagree. But that doesn't mean that is isn't sad. It is.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 05:14 PM
Let me ask you something before we conclude here, Servant. What is your definition of repentance? And if you post Scripture references (any of which we have both read countless times) be sure to interpret clearly and precisely your application of each. We may actually agree more than you think.

My understanding of what you intend repentance to mean will do a great deal to sort out where we differ as it relates to Salvation.

I will now dilute the serum with my interpretation. Repentance is a decision (at the point of Salvation through belief in Christ, His death, burial and Resurrection) to turn from a life of sin-slavery (having known no other way of life before this point) and pledging your allegiance to Christ who will then take you through the process of Sanctification. Repentance, in as much as it relates to our own work, ends there. We have chosen to acknowledge that we have lived in sin and will no longer blindly stumble through that life.

Though we may fall from here on out, we are not lost. Through a series of interruptions and interventions in our lives God will see to it that we shall not be lost if we have indeed put our lives into His hands. Repentance is moot at that point for the Believer. What remains is following after Christ in an effort to know the Father more (“This is life eternal, that they might know you, the one true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent”). I am afraid that you might be implying that we need to make an active effort to eliminate sin from our lives for the rest of our days. I believe that this is simply impossible.

If we are truly in love with Christ, our desires are redirected, one-by-one, to their original Source. For God, by God.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 29th 2008, 05:23 PM
I am quite certain you meant to say that you strongly believe it was the Lord who told you such a thing. Based upon your interpretation of God's Word regarding the subject at hand.

Nope! I meant it just like I said it. I wasn't interpreting scripture in the sense of doing a study on the subject. God was speaking to me through his Word to me personally. We have a very personal, long-time, intimate relationship and he often answers my questions very directly through his Word - his word is alive and is God-breathed. He chose the timing of my encounter with Max's teaching to coincide specifically with where I am reading in the Bible for my QT. I am convinced of this. This is the way he works with me most of the time now.

I don't always have this strong of an assurance, though. Many times you will hear me say "I believe" or "I think" on a particular subject because I'm not 100% convinced that I am hearing Him correctly even if I'm at 95%. But, I have no doubts on this one where I stated that it was the Lord speaking to me. The messages from his Word were strong, clear and unmistakable. Even my husband, who is not like me at all, said he believed the message was quite clear and pointed, that is the message from God's Word (my reading in Jeremiah 3-9), not from my research. The research is of man and is thus subject to be flawed and serves only as support.

As I've said before, God speaks to me through dreams, too. The morning of the day that I first heard Max's words, the Lord gave me three dreams of warning about what I was about to hear. I didn't realize until the next day that that was the personal message God had for me through them, but the Lord brought it all together for me. I know many people do not believe God speaks through dreams and may discount what I'm saying here because of that, but the dreams are not the final word with me. They are merely parables to illustrate a message, but the final Word comes from the Word of God. He is the authority!

So, what I'm saying is that God was involved in this from beginning to end. He is the one who brought it to light to me and he is the one who revealed to me what is going on via His Word. I am convinced of that! But, each one of us must find the truth ourselves. I would never ask anyone to believe something just because I said it or because I'm convinced of it. That is why I gave you the challenge that I did. And, I hope you will take it. It is His Word that speaks truth to our hearts!!

Ok, we are agreeing to disagree.... I really do want to put this to rest.

Tanya~
Jan 29th 2008, 05:39 PM
I am afraid that you might be implying that we need to make an active effort to eliminate sin from our lives for the rest of our days.

This is the teaching of Scripture though. Jesus taught it:

John 5:14; 8:11; Rev 2-3


Peter taught it: 2 Pet 1:2-11; 3:11-16


Paul taught it: Acts 26:20; Romans 6; 1 Cor 6:7-11; Gal 5:16-26; Eph 4:1-5:21, (etc., etc.)

John taught it: 1 John

Those are only a few passages. It's all throughout the NT. I have no idea how anyone could possibly miss it.

2 Cor 5:9-11
Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
NKJV

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 29th 2008, 05:40 PM
Yes, picky. There was absolutely nothing in that statement that was biblically inaccurate. It seems like the criticism is simply for the sake of criticizing. I completely understand wanting to make sure folks are biblically sound, but reproving them for not including something that your own personal preference says needs to be there is just subjective criticism. It's criticizing based upon what you think needs to be done and not what is biblically accurate. I could criticize every single teaching that was ever taught if this were the biblical standard.

So here are snippets for a few known church organizations and churches, and I’ve including a Mormon snippet just to compare…

Southern Baptist
God the Son
Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. …He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross, He made provision for the redemption of men from sin.
http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp

Presbyterian Church in America
We believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, who through His perfect life and sacrificial death atoned for the sins of all who will trust in Him, alone, for salvation.
http://www.pcanet.org/general/beliefs.htm

The United Methodist Church
Article II—Jesus Christ
We believe in Jesus Christ, truly God and truly man, in whom the divine and human natures are perfectly and inseparably united. He is the eternal Word made flesh, the only begotten Son of the Father, born of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. As ministering Servant he lived, suffered and died on the cross. He was buried, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven to be with the Father, from whence he shall return. He is eternal Savior and Mediator, who intercedes for us, and by him all men will be judged.
http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1654

Dallas Theological Seminary
Article VI—THE FIRST ADVENT
We believe that, as provided and purposed by God and as preannounced in the prophecies of the Scriptures, the eternal Son of God came into this world that He might manifest God to men, fulfill prophecy, and become the Redeemer of a lost world. To this end He was born of the virgin, and received a human body and a sinless human nature (Luke 1:30–35; John 1:18; 3:16; Heb. 4:15).
http://www.dts.edu/about/doctrinalstatement/


Saddleback Church - Rick Warren
Jesus is God showing himself to us.
http://saddleback.com/flash/believe.html


Lakewood Church - Joel Osteen
WE BELIEVE…in one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth as Savior of the world.
http://www.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=LCH_ourbeliefs


Bethlehem Baptist Church - John Piper
IV. Jesus Christ
We believe in Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, conceived by the Holy Spirit. We believe in His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, and teachings. We believe in His substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for His people, and personal visible return to earth.

Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38; John 1:1; 20:28; Romans 9:5; 8:46; II Corinthians 5:21; I Peter 2:21-23; John 20:30, 31; Matthew 20:28; Ephesians 1:4; Acts 1:11; Romans 5:6-8; 6:9,10; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:28; I Timothy 3:16
http://www.hopeingod.org/CongregationalAffirmationofFaith.aspx

Mormon Church
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Under the direction of your Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:1–2). Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ overcame death for you. Everyone, the righteous and wicked alike, will receive the gift of resurrection.? When life on this earth is over, Jesus Christ will serve as the final Judge ( Acts 17:31; John 5:21–22; Acts 10:42).
http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/jesus-christ-our-savior/jesus-christ

Grace Church - John MacArthur
God the Son. We teach that Jesus Christ, the second Person of the
Trinity, possesses all the divine excellencies, and in these He is
coequal, consubstantial, and coeternal with the Father (John 10:30;
14:9).
We teach that God the Father created according to His own will,
through His Son, Jesus Christ, by whom all things continue in existence
and in operation (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews
1:2).
We teach that in the incarnation (God becoming man) Christ surrendered
only the prerogatives of deity but nothing of the divine
essence, either in degree or kind. In His incarnation, the eternally
existing second Person of the Trinity accepted all the essential
characteristics of humanity and so became the God-Man
(Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 2:9).
http://www.gracechurch.org/home/doclib.asp?ministry_id=1&dlcat=Doctrinal+Statement

Oak Hills Church - Max Lucado
Jesus Christ
Jesus was miraculously born of the Virgin Mary (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35) and became flesh and blood (John 1:1-16; 29-34) without ceasing to be God. He lived a sinless life and performed many miracles to confirm his divinity. He died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, paying the debt for our sins (Mark 10:45). On the third day after his death he arose from the dead showing his victory over sin and death (1 Corinthians 15:3-8). He appeared to his disciples and then ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God serving as our mediator."
http://www.oakhillschurchsa.org/about/beliefs/


Any discernment needed or do these all say the same thing? I stand and contend that each word is choice and what is also not stated is just as important as to what is…


Personal disclaimer… I am neither endorsing or supporting any of these doctrinal statements as being the best of them all for this post, and they are given just as a sample as to why doctrinal knowledge is so very important…

VerticalReality
Jan 29th 2008, 06:04 PM
What does any of that have to do with my comment? What is biblically unsound about the doctrinal statement you quoted on page two?

Here's your criticism of the doctrinal statement . . .



For compared to other protestant churches doctrinal statements it seems to lack Jesus' eternal being... Notice how it opens -- it seems to say that Jesus begins from birth... If anything it could have been worded a bit clearer... Or it was worded exactly they way they intended -- left to the individual believer to add the understanding.


You claim that the statement isn't clear on the eternal quality of Jesus Christ . . .

However, here's the actual statement again . . .


Jesus was miraculously born of the Virgin Mary (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:35) and became flesh and blood (John 1:1-16; 29-34) without ceasing to be God. He lived a sinless life and performed many miracles to confirm his divinity. He died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, paying the debt for our sins (Mark 10:45). On the third day after his death he arose from the dead showing his victory over sin and death (1 Corinthians 15:3-8). He appeared to his disciples and then ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God serving as our mediator."

The bolded section makes it perfectly clear to me what they believe about the eternal quality of the Lord Jesus Christ. So again, it just seems to me like you're being excessively picky and criticizing for the sake of criticizing.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 29th 2008, 06:08 PM
Repentance is a decision (at the point of Salvation through belief in Christ, His death, burial and Resurrection) to turn from a life of sin-slavery (having known no other way of life before this point) and pledging your allegiance to Christ who will then take you through the process of Sanctification. Repentance, in as much as it relates to our own work, ends there. We have chosen to acknowledge that we have lived in sin and will no longer blindly stumble through that life.

Though we may fall from here on out, we are not lost. Through a series of interruptions and interventions in our lives God will see to it that we shall not be lost if we have indeed put our lives into His hands. Repentance is moot at that point for the Believer. What remains is following after Christ in an effort to know the Father more (“This is life eternal, that they might know you, the one true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent”). I am afraid that you might be implying that we need to make an active effort to eliminate sin from our lives for the rest of our days. I believe that this is simply impossible.

If we are truly in love with Christ, our desires are redirected, one-by-one, to their original Source. For God, by God.

I really do not want to get into a theological debate with you here. That is not what I am called to do. Nonetheless, I will say I agree with you on your definition of repentance in your first paragraph quoted above with the exception of the bolded part. I don't believe that repentance is our own work. When the scripture states that by grace we are saved THROUGH faith and that it is a gift of God, not of works lest any should boast, I believe both the grace and the faith, i.e repentance, are gifts from God and that repentance is not of our own effort. We can only come to Christ as God the Father draws us to himself so in that I believe that even the ability to repent is given to us by our heavenly Father and is only appropriated in our lives as we step out in faith and put it into action. And, even that response of faith is a gift. But, as with any gift, we have to put it into action. It doesn't just magically happen to us, otherwise everyone would be a Christian.

I also disagree with the other statement of yours that I have bolded above in the second quoted paragraph. Every time we fall, we must turn again (repent). Ephesians 4 gives us a whole list of put offs and put ons based upon putting on Christ and putting off the flesh. Putting off this and putting on that involves repentance - a turning away from sin and turning to God in faith. It does not mean every time we sin we lose our salvation and so we need to repent in order to be saved again. That is not what I mean. I don't believe a genuine believer in Christ can lose his salvation every time he sins and that repentance is necessary in order to regain that salvation in that case. So, if that was your concern, I can see why you said what you did. Repentance, I believe, as the process of the Christian life is for the purpose of turning from sin and following Christ with our lives on a daily basis and for the purpose of being in a right relationship with the Lord and to have our fellowship with him restored.

Let me give another analogy if I may. I am married (35 years). But, my husband and I are not perfect - no news bulletin. In fact there have been times in our lives when we have failed (sinned against) each other (and God) greatly. When we sin against each other it breaks our fellowship and trust. If I sin against him and I don't repent of it and I continue to sin against him in the same way over and over again (lack of repentance), then our relationship grows further and further apart. So, I need to repent in order to restore trust, love and fellowship to our relationship. Then, and only then can our marriage be blessed. It is the same way with our relationship with the Lord. If we don't turn from sin on a daily basis and we continue in our sin then we miss out on that wonderful fellowship the Lord has provided for us, his blessings, his protection, and his use of us in ministry in the lives of others in an effective and God-approved way.

Many marriages like this end in divorce where there is no repentance over a period of time. Some people believe (and scripture supports it) that a continued stance to not repent of sin over a period of time will result in a believer being cut off entirely from his relationship with the Lord. I happen to hold to that belief but believe it only happens when God has given repeated warnings of the danger to not repent and the person continues to refuse God. I believe the letters to the churches in Revelation support this as do many other scriptures, including this one:

Romans 11:17-24:


17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!



Revelation 2:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Revelation 2:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Revelation 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 2:15-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&verse=15&end_verse=17&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Revelation 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 2:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.
Revelation 2:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&verse=20&end_verse=22&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Revelation 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 2:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.
Revelation 2:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&verse=21&end_verse=23&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Revelation 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Revelation 3:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Revelation 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
Revelation 3:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Revelation 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter) Ok, that is all I want to say on the subject. My job here is not to convince you. That is the Holy Spirit's job. So, I say to you what I said before - seek out God's truth in his Word and see what He says to you.

In Christian love,

Sue

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 06:30 PM
This is the teaching of Scripture though. Jesus taught it:

John 5:14; 8:11; Rev 2-3


Peter taught it: 2 Pet 1:2-11; 3:11-16


Paul taught it: Acts 26:20; Romans 6; 1 Cor 6:7-11; Gal 5:16-26; Eph 4:1-5:21, (etc., etc.)

John taught it: 1 John

Those are only a few passages. It's all throughout the NT. I have no idea how anyone could possibly miss it.

2 Cor 5:9-11
Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
NKJV

I think our differences exist in how that "elimination of sin" takes place. It is by following hard after Christ. We cannot will our sins into extinction.

Tanya~
Jan 29th 2008, 06:57 PM
I think our differences exist in how that "elimination of sin" takes place. It is by following hard after Christ. We cannot will our sins into extinction.

Well I didn't say we willed our sins into extinction, all I did was quote Scripture. You had suggested that putting forth an active effort to eliminate sin was wrong, somehow. I think that contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture throughout.

What does "following hard after Christ" mean?

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 07:22 PM
Well I didn't say we willed our sins into extinction, all I did was quote Scripture. You had suggested that putting forth an active effort to eliminate sin was wrong, somehow. I think that contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture throughout.

What does "following hard after Christ" mean?

What I mean is that when you begin to fall in Love with Christ (real love not just taking an interest in Him but becoming almost obsessed with knowing more about Him) He will take you on this grand journey and that Love you have for Him will grow. Every bit of desire that He fulfills, is one less perverted desire for something in this world. The desire has, at that point, been redeemed to it's rightful owner, Him.

I know this is true because that is exactly how it is happening for me. I used to be loathsome of older men because I saw them as I saw my father. I was always trying to one-up every middle-aged American male I ever met. But when Christ showed me what a real father is like and that He in fact was my real Father, the desire for the admiration of earthly men slowly dissolved. See, I did nothing to try and better myself or hack away at the root of my problem. I just believed what God was telling me about myslef and my dad. And the difference between my dad and my Father.

I did nothing. The work of repentance was only to spend more time learning about God and less time learning about my sin and it's roots.

Tanya~
Jan 29th 2008, 08:59 PM
Fallenbrooke,

I appreciate your testimony about your relationship with your dad, and how the Lord has been renewing your mind in this area. I think you meant that as an example of 'following hard after Christ.' But that didn't really answer my question, as it relates to the issue of whether we are to actively seek to eliminate sin in our lives.

God does change us. He came to save us from our sins. Therefore, we are to actively get rid of it, to put off the old man, as Paul puts it here:


Rom 6:12-14
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
NKJV

And here:


Eph 4:17-24
This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
NKJV

Here's another one:


Col 3:1-11
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.
NKJV

In each case this is a call to action, to put sin out of our lives.

When Paul wrote, "the wages of sin is death" he was writing to believers, in the context of teaching them (us) that since we are in Christ, we are to no longer live enslaved to sin.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 10:22 PM
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Tanya I don't know how many other ways to put it. But the verse you quoted above says it best. We actively "put off the old man" only by living as the new man. Not by sin-hunting. We don't get up and say "I am going to avoid all beautiful women (or men) so that my mind will not digress into temptation." We say, "I am actively going to seek after God today and commune with Him so that when I see a beautiful woman I will, having affixed my desire upon Christ, not be led as easily into temptation."

I don’t look for ways to forcibly break habits by just exercising my will and going through a period of cravings and withdrawals until it has no effect on me any more. That is pride. It makes me feel that I have earned God’s Grace by winning some skirmish on the battlefield. We eliminate sin by living under the Grace already afforded us. That, in turn, effects our desires altogether.

The word repentance, I believe, has been completely bastardized in our culture. Sin-hunters (who spend more time hunting sin in the lives of others they they do their own) often require more work than is required by Scripture. This only fosters a spirit of pride.

When you turn to Christ genuinely, you automatically turn from sin. It is, however, an on-going process. Sin is effectively dealt with and attacked on a daily basis...but not by you. That’s the beauty of the thing! Yes, Scripture says repent! Yes, it says to put off the old man, crucify the flesh...and on and on. But it’s the method that either renders one successful...or reveals one who is just putting on airs to earn some right of passage with God.

To suggest that we have a part to play in the elimination of sin in our lives is to say that Christ didn’t do quite enough on the Cross. And that if we follow Him He’s not quite big enough to address sin in our lives. He will never say to you “Get rid of that sin!” and just leave it at that. He will always say “give that part of you to Me.” It’s always about surrender.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 10:29 PM
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. .

Actually this says exactly what I've been saying. Seek those things which are above! Your life is hidden with Christ...this, in turn is what enables you quite naturally to:...

put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 10:38 PM
Repentance, I believe, as the process of the Christian life is for the purpose of turning from sin and following Christ with our lives on a daily basis and for the purpose of being in a right relationship with the Lord and to have our fellowship with him restored.



I think this is categorically errant. Our relationship with God was restored on the Cross. Otherwise, we are saved/unsaved several time a day. I can only hope to die in “saved mode” if that’s the case.

But we may even be splitting hairs that this juncture. What you call repentance, I call getting up from a fall and acknowledging my wrong to God and taking His hand again. When I think of repentance, I think of John the Baptist screaming at unsaved people who have no intentions of giving up their sinful lives.

Tanya~
Jan 29th 2008, 11:11 PM
Tanya I don't know how many other ways to put it. But the verse you quoted above says it best. We actively "put off the old man" only by living as the new man. Not by sin-hunting. We don't get up and say "I am going to avoid all beautiful women (or men) so that my mind will not digress into temptation."


This is just a strawman, Fallenbrooke. I never suggested that. Scripture teaches us to resist temptation. When we are tempted, we resist it. It isn't necessary to go 'sin-hunting.'


I don’t look for ways to forcibly break habits by just exercising my will and going through a period of cravings and withdrawals until it has no effect on me any more. That is pride.

Would you consider it pride to bear up under and resist temptation when it comes to you, if God has provided the way to escape?

Too many Christians remain in bondage to sin -- even some really gross sin -- unnecessarily because they do not believe that they have been given what they need to get free from it. It's this sort of passive, "I can't do it so God is going to have to be the one to do it" kind of attitude, where a person believes that if God is ready for them to stop that particular sin, then He will somehow just cause the temptation for it to go away.

It doesn't work that way.


It makes me feel that I have earned God’s Grace by winning some skirmish on the battlefield. We eliminate sin by living under the Grace already afforded us. That, in turn, effects our desires altogether.

I agree that when we are born again, we have a whole new set of desires. But that doesn't eliminate temptation. We still have the requirement to fight the temptation and win against it.

It has nothing to do with earning God's grace, for the grace has already been given. It's all about learning how to walk in the Spirit -- how to live out that grace that has been given.


When you turn to Christ genuinely, you automatically turn from sin.

Can you provide Scriptural support for this? Because what I read in Scripture is that because we have received Christ, we have a responsibility to turn from sin. The passages quoted above are some examples. Here is another:

Acts 26:19-21
"Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
NKJV

Notice too, what Scripture teaches us about the grace of God:

Titus 2:11-15
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
NKJV
This isn't something we wait around for, passively, for God to do to us. It is what we are called to do, because we have been given His grace to do it.


Sin is effectively dealt with and attacked on a daily basis...but not by you. That’s the beauty of the thing! Yes, Scripture says repent! Yes, it says to put off the old man, crucify the flesh...and on and on. But it’s the method that either renders one successful...or reveals one who is just putting on airs to earn some right of passage with God.

What do you mean by 'method?' The object is that we live godly lives, because God has given us the power to do that.


To suggest that we have a part to play in the elimination of sin in our lives is to say that Christ didn’t do quite enough on the Cross.

How do you figure? Of course we have a part to play, otherwise there would be no instruction for us to do that, nor would there be any need, because no Christian would ever do anything against the will of God. To suggest that we don't have a part to play in the elimination of sin in our lives is to deny the major part of New Testament teaching.


Rom 8:13
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
NKJV

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 11:24 PM
Tanya I have explained no less than three times now exactly what I mean by eliminating sin. You are micro-debating. Walking in Christ satisfies the desire that would otherwise lead one to sin. He doesn’t remove the desire to sin in specific areas all at once. These are the works to which Paul is referring. That is the way God has provided as an escape.

Are you sinless, Tanya? Or might there be areas you still need to surrender to God? By your logic you are still in need of repentance...and you always will be until you step into God’s Presence.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 29th 2008, 11:27 PM
otherwise there would be no instruction for us to do that,

What is the instruction????

"Submit yourself to God...resist the devil and he will flee...draw near to God and He will draw near to you".

That is the active part we play. Draw near to God. That is how we resist the devil. Period.

Tanya~
Jan 29th 2008, 11:29 PM
When I think of repentance, I think of John the Baptist screaming at unsaved people who have no intentions of giving up their sinful lives.

I think you have the wrong idea of repentance and the wrong idea of what John's ministry was about. He was preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, preparing the way for the Lord.

Luke 3:3-4
3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, 4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying:

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
'Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make His paths straight.
NKJV

Those who believed him and actually did repent, were then prepared to receive Jesus. Those who rejected his message of repentance also rejected Jesus.


Luke 7:29-30
And when all the people heard [Jesus], even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
NKJV

When John's ministry was over, Jesus took up the theme and preached repentance as well.


Matt 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
NKJV
This message has not changed. And those who have already turned to God are also called to repent if they are in sin. This is especially clear in the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation 2 & 3.


Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
NKJV

Tanya~
Jan 29th 2008, 11:33 PM
What is the instruction????

"Submit yourself to God...resist the devil and he will flee...draw near to God and He will draw near to you".

That is the active part we play. Draw near to God. That is how we resist the devil. Period.

I can see the smoke coming out of your ears, so it's time to end this. :)

Besides, we've gotten off topic.

But I will agree that when we draw near to God, we will not be committing sin. It is like what Paul said, "Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." You can't walk in the Spirit and do some sin at the same time because the two things are mutually exclusive.

Yet walking in the Spirit, drawing near to God, is something that we do. You have to make the choice between doing a sin (obeying the devil) or drawing near to God. That's why the instruction is given. It's something we have to do -- it isn't done to us or for us.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 30th 2008, 03:32 AM
It's something we have to do -- it isn't done to us or for us.

Absolutely. But somehow it seems like many (like those who criticize the works of people who point people to the Cross of Christ) make our spiritual walk two-fold: Walk with Christ and actively eradicate sin from our lives using the will. We actively (as you rightly noted) eradicate sin from our lives by walking with God. Only we really aren't doing much about our sin other than taking from what God is giving us to satisfy our spirits rather than our flesh. It's kind of silly to say we are victorious over our sins by any power we possess apart from Him.

So Max's omission of what it takes to repent really isn't much of an omission. If one is moved toward God (provided they are one of His children) that process is taking care of itself by God's design.

And don't mistake my passion for anger. I'm far from angry.

Tanya~
Jan 30th 2008, 03:38 AM
It's kind of silly to say we are victorious over our sins by any power we possess apart from Him.

I don't think anyone has said anything like that, but I might have missed something because I haven't carefully read every post in the thread.

RoadWarrior
Jan 30th 2008, 03:41 AM
Absolutely. But somehow it seems like many (like those who criticize the works of people who point people to the Cross of Christ) make our spiritual walk two-fold: Walk with Christ and actively eradicate sin from our lives using the will. We actively (as you rightly noted) eradicate sin from our lives by walking with God. Only we really aren't doing much about our sin other than taking from what God is giving us to satisfy our spirits rather than our flesh. It's kind of silly to say we are victorious over our sins by any power we possess apart from Him.

So Max's omission of what it takes to repent really isn't much of an omission. If one is moved toward God (provided they are one of His children) that process is taking care of itself by God's design.

And don't mistake my passion for anger. I'm far from angry.

I understand what you are saying Fallenbrooke, but then how do we account for there being so many "Christians" walking around in blatant sin, and thinking it is ok?

In my own personal experience with being a Christian, I had to very actively reject temptations to go back into old sins. Your experience of course may vary. But I had to resist.

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2008, 03:45 AM
I understand what you are saying Fallenbrooke, but then how do we account for there being so many "Christians" walking around in blatant sin, and thinking it is ok?

The same way Jesus accounted for it... he warned against it and even mentioned the "Lord, Lord" thing. Over and over again he said that those who kept his commands were those that loved him. But still many people walked around in sin even after hearing Him preach. It's often not the message that is at fault for why people are deceived or why they sin. It's the heart of the hearer. God promised that all who seek him with all their heart will find him. Those who are deceived are ripe for deception. Jesus even preached in parables to hide the truth.

By the same token, the church often doesn't give people room to grow in grace and in truth. While we cheer the first steps and ignore the falls of our earthly children, we often ignore the first steps and rebuke the falls of those that are learning to walk in the Spirit.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 30th 2008, 03:52 AM
While we cheer the first steps and ignore the falls of our earthly children, we often ignore the first steps and rebuke the falls of those that are learning to walk in the Spirit.

That gave me goose bumps. And I don't get those. Well...except when I saw Braveheart the first time.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 30th 2008, 04:04 AM
I understand what you are saying Fallenbrooke, but then how do we account for there being so many "Christians" walking around in blatant sin, and thinking it is ok?

I don't know too many that think it is OK. I'm sure there are some but my experience is that most hate what they do but can't stop. I suggest that this is because they are looking to the pleasure of those sins to fulfill a desire that is really for God. They are just stopping short of God for a quicker fix.

But those who think their sin is OK (and I guess I don't know what you mean by blatant) they are being deceived and are in danger of a serious confrontation with God. And it will most likely be ugly. But I don't think that if they are truly redeemed that God will let them go on too long without stepping in. That I have seen first hand God allow lives to be shattered only to pull those people up later.

Tanya~
Jan 30th 2008, 04:31 AM
I don't know too many that think it is OK. I'm sure there are some but my experience is that most hate what they do but can't stop. I suggest that this is because they are looking to the pleasure of those sins to fulfill a desire that is really for God. They are just stopping short of God for a quicker fix.

Why can't they stop, if the Lord has provided all that they need? This is the problem. I know that when I was a new believer, I didn't have the understanding that believers didn't have to live in bondage to sin like this. "Can't stop" is not true, for one who is in Christ. In my experience it was a lack of knowledge about the truth that prevented me from being able to quit the particular sins that held me in bondage. Wrong belief leads to wrong behavior. God hears our prayers though, and answers them. He led me to the knowledge of the truth in His word so that I could understand. Then I was able to overcome the sin. Once I got victory over that one, I knew how to overcome sin, because the principles don't change even when the sins are different. Once you know what Jesus has done for you, it gives you a great deal of power. Once you learn this principle and use it to gain victory over one sin, you can use it with every sin and be an overcomer as we should be.

I love this passage. It shows 3 different stages in the Christian walk:

1 John 2:12-14
I write to you, little children,
Because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
Because you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJV

There comes a point when the little children must become young men, who know how to overcome the wicked one.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 30th 2008, 04:37 AM
Tanya, do you struggle with sin? I'm not baiting you (well in a way I am ;)) But I really want to know if you have it all figured out. If so, tell me step-by-step how you overcame using what God gave you.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 30th 2008, 04:47 AM
Why can't they stop, if the Lord has provided all that they need? This is the problem. I know that when I was a new believer, I didn't have the understanding that believers didn't have to live in bondage to sin like this. "Can't stop" is not true, for one who is in Christ. In my experience it was a lack of knowledge about the truth that prevented me from being able to quit the particular sins that held me in bondage. Wrong belief leads to wrong behavior. God hears our prayers though, and answers them. He led me to the knowledge of the truth in His word so that I could understand. Then I was able to overcome the sin. Once I got victory over that one, I knew how to overcome sin, because the principles don't change even when the sins are different. Once you know what Jesus has done for you, it gives you a great deal of power. Once you learn this principle and use it to gain victory over one sin, you can use it with every sin and be an overcomer as we should be.


Absolutely!! Well spoken indeed!! One of Satan's biggest lies he uses against Christians is to tell them that they can't overcome their sinful habits as though Jesus is somehow bound and that there is still a discussion as to who wins the battle. Jesus already won!! We just have to use his weapons of victory in our lives so that we can win, too.

I know that I used to resist Satan like an abused child (my past) hovering in a corner with her arms crossed across her chest and her head tucked down hoping he would not strike another blow. I felt powerless to resist. And, I carried that belief system over into my relationship with Jesus. I thought somehow that Jesus was limited, though if you asked me if he was I knew intellectually that he was all powerful, yet subconsciously I believed otherwise which was evidenced by my behavior.

Once I came to the understanding that Jesus already won the battle and that there is no longer any question as to who will win and that I had the weapons of warfare and victory available to me, then I was able to gain complete victory over some areas that had plagued me for years. I learned that we have to fight with the Sword of the Spirit and the helmet of Salvation and the shield of faith and we have to combat Satan's lies with God's truths every time Satan tells us that we are powerless or that God is powerless to act in our behalf or that somehow there is still a question of who wins. We all know how the story ends.

Tanya~
Jan 30th 2008, 04:51 AM
Tanya, do you struggle with sin? I'm not baiting you (well in a way I am ;)) But I really want to know if you have it all figured out. If so, tell me step-by-step how you overcame using what God gave you.

You won't believe me but no, I can't say that I 'struggle with sin.' Do I get tempted? Yes. Do I ever sin? Yes. Do I fight a losing battle with sin every day like I did before I understood the truth about what Jesus did for me? No, I do not.

If you want to know, step-by-step, how I gained victory over habitual sin through walking by the Spirit I will be most happy to share that with you. We should probably start a new thread for that though, because it has nothing to do with Max Lucado and his theology. ;)

Start a thread in Maturing in Christ and point me to it.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 30th 2008, 04:55 AM
Absolutely!! Well spoken indeed!! One of Satan's biggest lies he uses against Christians is to tell them that they can't overcome their sinful habits as though Jesus is somehow bound and that there is still a discussion as to who wins the battle. Jesus already won!! We just have to use his weapons of victory in our lives so that we can win, too.

His weapons of victory? His weapon of victory was the Cross. The Armor of God (if you are referring to those) are defensive tools. To stand against the wiles of the devil. Assaults on the Truth.

When I said they can't over come it I am fairly secure in saying that.

Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

I am sorry but the only tool of victory you can use is to continue nurturing your relationship with Christ. That's what Paul did.

Fallenbrooke
Jan 30th 2008, 04:56 AM
You won't believe me but no, I can't say that I 'struggle with sin.' Do I get tempted? Yes. Do I ever sin? Yes. Do I fight a losing battle with sin every day like I did before I understood the truth about what Jesus did for me? No, I do not.

If you want to know, step-by-step, how I gained victory over habitual sin through walking by the Spirit I will be most happy to share that with you. We should probably start a new thread for that though, because it has nothing to do with Max Lucado and his theology. ;)

Start a thread in Maturing in Christ and point me to it.

Deal. I'll call it gaining victory, step-by-step (wow...I should title books!)

Christsfreeservant
Jan 30th 2008, 05:04 AM
Tanya, do you struggle with sin? I'm not baiting you (well in a way I am ;)) But I really want to know if you have it all figured out. If so, tell me step-by-step how you overcame using what God gave you.

I'm moving my response to the thread you started.

Christsfreeservant
Jan 30th 2008, 05:08 AM
You won't believe me but no, I can't say that I 'struggle with sin.' Do I get tempted? Yes. Do I ever sin? Yes. Do I fight a losing battle with sin every day like I did before I understood the truth about what Jesus did for me? No, I do not.

If you want to know, step-by-step, how I gained victory over habitual sin through walking by the Spirit I will be most happy to share that with you. We should probably start a new thread for that though, because it has nothing to do with Max Lucado and his theology. ;)

Start a thread in Maturing in Christ and point me to it.

Ooops! I answered him on here. Guess I strayed from my own thread.

9Marksfan
Feb 1st 2008, 12:00 PM
His weapons of victory? His weapon of victory was the Cross. The Armor of God (if you are referring to those) are defensive tools. To stand against the wiles of the devil. Assaults on the Truth.

When I said they can't over come it I am fairly secure in saying that.

Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

I am sorry but the only tool of victory you can use is to continue nurturing your relationship with Christ. That's what Paul did.

But why does Paul say this, then?

"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds" 2 Cor 10:4 NKJV

I agree that the armour of God in Eph 6 is principally defensive - but here we have offensive weapons (plural!), which we are to use to pull down strongholds! Doesn't sound very defensive, does it?

Now, what are these offensive weapons? Well, I believe they are referred to in Eph 6 too - the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; and all prayer.

I also believe that there are at least two (or three) others (some would see two of them as synonymous) - our faith, which is how we overcome the world, the flesh and the Devil (our spiritual enemies); and the word of our testimony, which we are told is how believers overcame Satan in Revelation; and (getting back to your point, fallenbrooke) the blood of the Lamb! And of course, that is the greatest weapon of all!

PS Just to be a little controversial :o - might fasting be a weapon too?

"And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, 'Why could we not cast it out?' So He said to them, 'This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.'” Mk 9:28-29 NKJV

Mograce2U
Feb 1st 2008, 02:39 PM
9MarksFan,

PS Just to be a little controversial - might fasting be a weapon too?

"And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, 'Why could we not cast it out?' So He said to them, 'This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.'” Mk 9:28-29 NKJV

Prayer and fasting here would seem to be not a weapon against the devil but the preparation needed to bring us into the faith we must possess if we are to overcome.

(Mark 9:18-19 KJV) And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. {19} He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

The faithless generation Jesus is referring to includes His own disciples.

(Mark 9:23 KJV) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

(Mark 9:24 KJV) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Prayer and fasting is to help us overcome our unbelief that Christ will do what He says. The devil cannot come against us nor overcome us when we stand before the Lord in faith. It is the Lord who casts out the demon from the boy by what He commands. If our sins/unbelief are standing in the way separating us from the Lord, then faith is not presently working in us. Prayer and fasting brings us into the spiritual realm in such a way that the power of God can then work thru us. We must be made vessels fit for His use, and that is what prayer and fasting is for.

Christsfreeservant
Feb 1st 2008, 02:40 PM
But why does Paul say this, then?

"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds" 2 Cor 10:4 NKJV

I agree that the armour of God in Eph 6 is principally defensive - but here we have offensive weapons (plural!), which we are to use to pull down strongholds! Doesn't sound very defensive, does it?

Now, what are these offensive weapons? Well, I believe they are referred to in Eph 6 too - the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; and all prayer.

I also believe that there are at least two (or three) others (some would see two of them as synonymous) - our faith, which is how we overcome the world, the flesh and the Devil (our spiritual enemies); and the word of our testimony, which we are told is how believers overcame Satan in Revelation; and (getting back to your point, fallenbrooke) the blood of the Lamb! And of course, that is the greatest weapon of all!



Thanks, Marksfan! Those are excellent thoughts. I, too, see the armor of God in Ephesians 6 as both offensive and defensive. I know in my own battles I have used the belt of truth to combat Satan's lies, the breastplate of righteousness to combat his condemnations, my feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace to teach the truth of the gospel and to oppose a false gospel, the shield of faith to combat doubt and fear, the helmet of salvation (the cross of Christ) and the sword of the Spirit to speak God's Words in contrast to Satan's and his false teachers, and being continually in prayer for all kinds of requests on all occasions and for my brothers and sisters in Christ who are also in battle. When we put these on ahead of time, before we encounter an attack of Satan, they are offensive and proactive weapons, but they can also be used defensively when we are attacked. But, if we use them only defensively, we will never win the battle. We have to be proactive (offensive) in our fight against Satan and his lies.

That is why, getting back to the main subject here, that we need to be in the Word of God and in prayer daily, seeking truth from the Lord so that when we encounter a false teaching we will immediately recognize it as false.

9Marksfan
Feb 1st 2008, 04:41 PM
9MarksFan,


Prayer and fasting here would seem to be not a weapon against the devil but the preparation needed to bring us into the faith we must possess if we are to overcome.

(Mark 9:18-19 KJV) And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. {19} He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

The faithless generation Jesus is referring to includes His own disciples.

(Mark 9:23 KJV) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

(Mark 9:24 KJV) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Prayer and fasting is to help us overcome our unbelief that Christ will do what He says. The devil cannot come against us nor overcome us when we stand before the Lord in faith. It is the Lord who casts out the demon from the boy by what He commands. If our sins/unbelief are standing in the way separating us from the Lord, then faith is not presently working in us. Prayer and fasting brings us into the spiritual realm in such a way that the power of God can then work thru us. We must be made vessels fit for His use, and that is what prayer and fasting is for.

Good points - I guess fasting "sharpens" our faith, which enables us to lay hold on the LORD in a way that pleases Him and will command His blessing. Thanks!

9Marksfan
Feb 1st 2008, 04:43 PM
Thanks, Marksfan! Those are excellent thoughts. I, too, see the armor of God in Ephesians 6 as both offensive and defensive. I know in my own battles I have used the belt of truth to combat Satan's lies, the breastplate of righteousness to combat his condemnations, my feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace to teach the truth of the gospel and to oppose a false gospel, the shield of faith to combat doubt and fear, the helmet of salvation (the cross of Christ) and the sword of the Spirit to speak God's Words in contrast to Satan's and his false teachers, and being continually in prayer for all kinds of requests on all occasions and for my brothers and sisters in Christ who are also in battle. When we put these on ahead of time, before we encounter an attack of Satan, they are offensive and proactive weapons, but they can also be used defensively when we are attacked. But, if we use them only defensively, we will never win the battle. We have to be proactive (offensive) in our fight against Satan and his lies.

That is why, getting back to the main subject here, that we need to be in the Word of God and in prayer daily, seeking truth from the Lord so that when we encounter a false teaching we will immediately recognize it as false.

Amen! Well said!

Gabrielsangels2000
Feb 13th 2008, 06:57 PM
I am brand new here. I was just poking around trying to find some level headed discernment on Max Lucado and a couple of other ministries. I just wanted to say that I stayed and joined because of what CHRISTSFREESERVANT (Sue) started up and wrote on Lucado's theology. It was so refreshing to find hearts looking for true discernment - and not in critical or nasty ways. I have bounced around a little more and I can tell there are many true hearted Christians here. I am staying and hope to find many like minded folks. Dave.

RoadWarrior
Feb 13th 2008, 07:41 PM
I am brand new here. I was just poking around trying to find some level headed discernment on Max Lucado and a couple of other ministries. I just wanted to say that I stayed and joined because of what CHRISTSFREESERVANT (Sue) started up and wrote on Lucado's theology. It was so refreshing to find hearts looking for true discernment - and not in critical or nasty ways. I have bounced around a little more and I can tell there are many true hearted Christians here. I am staying and hope to find many like minded folks. Dave.

Welcome to the board, Dave. I look forward to hearing what God is doing in your life also.

Gabrielsangels2000
Feb 13th 2008, 08:41 PM
Thank you RW. It's nice to be welcomed. I am glad to be here and a part of this! Dave

Sold Out
Feb 13th 2008, 09:25 PM
Do you notice anything missing? He compares Jesus as the son of God and him sharing God's DNA much the same as a human child gets their parents DNA transferred him or her. He says Jesus is like God in that he shares his DNA (parent/child) and his qualities. But, there is a distinct separation here, that I see, between "God" and "Jesus" as though Jesus is not God but is merely the Son of God. Do you see that, too?

Does anyone know whether or not Max Lucado believes in the diety of Christ - that he is God, not just the Son of God?

I've read this book. It's very good.

I believe Max is expounding on the humanity of Christ, not at all taking away from His deity. Max's doctrine is right on, from what I've read and the church he pastors.

RoadWarrior
Feb 13th 2008, 09:32 PM
Thank you RW. It's nice to be welcomed. I am glad to be here and a part of this! Dave

Dave, was there something about Lucado's teaching which concerned you? I know that there are a few (maybe several) churches in the US who are doing 3:16 as the Easter Sunday program. Apparently there is music set to it ... I've not seen the video nor read the book, so I'm guessing at what they are doing. The choir at my sister's church is practicing the music for that purpose.