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Jaired
Jan 25th 2008, 06:43 PM
Some say the kingdom is in heaven, others say it is in the hearts of the body of Christ, and some say that the kingdom is going to be inaugurated on earth at Jesus' second coming. So my question to you is this, which is it? Feedback will be much appreciated.

faithfulfriend
Jan 25th 2008, 06:48 PM
Some say the kingdom is in heaven, others say it is in the hearts of the body of Christ, and some say that the kingdom is going to be inaugurated on earth at Jesus' second coming. So my question to you is this, which is it? Feedback will be much appreciated.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 06:52 PM
Jesus says 'Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.' It seems to me that if we were all going to heaven after we die, then Jesus wouldn't have preached in the way that he did. Surely he didn't believe that everyone he spoke to was going to die and go to heaven soon, being that he preached to everyone. Jesus' entire message was one of a Kingdom on earth, of heaven, but not in it.

Good question,
Ian

drew
Jan 25th 2008, 06:54 PM
Some say the kingdom is in heaven, others say it is in the hearts of the body of Christ, and some say that the kingdom is going to be inaugurated on earth at Jesus' second coming. So my question to you is this, which is it? Feedback will be much appreciated.
I believe that the the Kingdom of God is already here in this very world. I understand Jesus as teaching that his entry into the world inaugurates the arrival of the Kingdom of God. And just because Jesus is "gone", this does not mean that His kingdom is not a real and present reality.

From Matthew 12:

But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

I think this rules out the view that the kingdom of God lies in the future.

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 06:59 PM
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

How then does Revelation fit into this?


I believe that the the Kingdom of God is already here in this very world. I understand Jesus as teaching that his entry into the world inaugurates the arrival of the Kingdom of God. And just because Jesus is "gone", this does not mean that His kingdom is not a real and present reality.

If the Kingdom of God is here now, then it seems like it's quite a bit of a failure. The world today is not a godly place, in case you hadn't noticed. The world thrives on sin, so if this is the Kingdom of God, surely we've been mislead to believe that, 'Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven', could possibly bring about perfection.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2008, 07:07 PM
Some say the kingdom is in heaven, others say it is in the hearts of the body of Christ, and some say that the kingdom is going to be inaugurated on earth at Jesus' second coming. So my question to you is this, which is it? Feedback will be much appreciated.

The Kingdom of God encompasses the entirety of all creation. God's sovereign will is control of all things that we see before us now. The kingdom of God is made up of Heaven and Earth. Heaven is God's throne, while earth is God's footstool. When Christ returns, a New Heaven and Earth will be created.

Here's some verses that support all of what's been said.

Acts 7:49-50
Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things?

Revelation 21:1-3
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2008, 07:12 PM
I think Jesus is the Kingdom of God, where Jesus is there is the Kingdom!
Alas, I started a study of the K o G but got sidetracked. Here is one thought:
2 Tim 4:18 it reads The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever.
Assuming Paul wrote Timothy then looks like the heavenly kingdom is also somewhere other than on earth. Paul was saved and was already on earth but says the Lord will bring him safely to His heavenly Kingdom.

Jaired
Jan 25th 2008, 07:15 PM
faihfulfriend, this is what Albert Nolan says about Lk 17 21 This will help answer your question.
This quotation was written by Albert Nolan in 1976. His book, Jesus Before Christianity has gone through six printings and still sells in bookstores today. Albert Nolan is a native South African who worked with others to liberate the oppressed victims of Apartheid. He is a Dominican priest. This portion of his book can be found on page 58-59 of the 1992 version of his book.


Many Christians have been misled for centuries about the nature of God’s “kingdom” by the well-known mistranslation of Lk 17:21: “The kingdom of God is within you.” Today all serious scholars and translators agree that the text should be read: “The kingdom of God is among you or in your midst.” The Greek word entos can mean “within” or “among” but in the presenyt context to translate it “within” would mean that in answer to the Pharisees’ question about when the “kingdom” of God would come (17:20) Jesus told them that the “kingdom” of God was within them! This would contradict everything else Jesus ever said about the “kingdom” or about the Pharisees. Moreover, since every other reference to the “kingdom” presupposes that it is yet to come and since the verb in every other clause in this passage (17:20-37) is in the future tense, this verse must be understood to mean that one day they will find that the “kingdom” of God is suddenly and unexpectedly in their midst.
The “kingdom” of God, like any other kingdom, cannot be within a person; it is something which a person can live. Somewhere in the background behind Jesus’ use of the term “kingdom of God” there is a pictorial image. He speaks of people entering into the “kingdom” (Mk 9:47; 10:15, 23, 24, 25, parr; Mt 5:20; 7:21; 18:3; 21:31; 23:13; Jn 3:5). They can sit down in it and eat and drink in it (Mk 14:25; Mt 8:11-12 par; Lk 22:30). The “kingdom” has a door or a gate (Mt 7:13, 14; Lk 13:24) on which one can knock (Mt 7:7-8 par; 25:10-12 par). It also has keys (Mt 16:19; Lk 11:52) and can be locked (Mt 23:13; Lk 13:25). The pictorial image behind this is obviously that of a house or a walled city.
…The fact that his way of speaking about the “kingdom” is based upon a pictorial image of a house, a city or a community leaves no doubt about what he had in mind: a politically structured society of people here on earth. A “kingdom” is a thoroughly political notion. It is a society in which the political structure is monarchical, that is to say, it is ruled and governed by a king. Nothing that Jesus ever said would lead one to think that he might have used this term in a non-political sense."

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2008, 07:17 PM
I think Jesus is the Kingdom of God, where Jesus is there is the Kingdom!

Yup. No Kingdom without him..He is God. Couldn't get any simpler than that...;)

Sallip
Jan 25th 2008, 07:17 PM
Amen jaired,

I think revelation gives us a clear picture that the kingdom will be on earth. The idea that the kingdom is here now is kind of upsetting. If the Kingdom is here now, then it really isn't that great. Why should We strive for a kingdom that promotes sin and unrighteousness? 2 Cor 4.4 clearly states that satan is the god of this age

Cheers

Sallip
Jan 25th 2008, 07:20 PM
Yup. No Kingdom without him..He is God. Couldn't get any simpler than that...;)

Well that can't be so. God cannot be tempted and its says Jesus was tempted. Also God cannot die, and yet Jesus died.


So there are contradictions with that. When it comes to doctrines, especially the sacred cows, many people throw logic and reason right out the window.

faithfulfriend
Jan 25th 2008, 07:22 PM
faihfulfriend, this is what Albert Nolan says about Lk 17 21 This will help answer your question.
This quotation was written by Albert Nolan in 1976. His book, Jesus Before Christianity has gone through six printings and still sells in bookstores today. Albert Nolan is a native South African who worked with others to liberate the oppressed victims of Apartheid. He is a Dominican priest. This portion of his book can be found on page 58-59 of the 1992 version of his book.

The Kingdom of God is a SPIRITUAL kingdom, not a PHYSICAL kingdom. Those who are truly saved & sanctified are apart of the kingdom of God.

Luke 17:21 - Adam Clarke
The kingdom of God was among the Jews, or rather within some of them. It was a spiritual kingdom, set up in the heart by the power of Divine grace. Observe how it had been with sinners formerly, and in what state the judgments of God, which they had been warned of, found them. Here is shown what a dreadful surprise this destruction will be to the secure and sensual. Thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. When Christ came to destroy the Jewish nation by the Roman armies, that nation was found in such a state of false security as is here spoken of. In like manner, when Jesus Christ shall come to judge the world, sinners will be found altogether regardless; for in like manner the sinners of every age go on securely in their evil ways, and remember not their latter end. But wherever the wicked are, who are marked for eternal ruin, they shall be found by the judgments of God.

Mr 9:1 ¶ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The kingdom of God has already been established....it's a spiritual kingdom.

faithfulfriend
Jan 25th 2008, 07:23 PM
Amen jaired,

I think revelation gives us a clear picture that the kingdom will be on earth. The idea that the kingdom is here now is kind of upsetting. If the Kingdom is here now, then it really isn't that great. Why should We strive for a kingdom that promotes sin and unrighteousness? 2 Cor 4.4 clearly states that satan is the god of this age

Cheers

If a person is truly a part of the kingdom of God, it's even MORE than "great."

Words can't express how wonderful it really is.

Sallip
Jan 25th 2008, 07:25 PM
The Kingdom of God is a SPIRITUAL kingdom, not a PHYSICAL kingdom. Those who are truly saved & sanctified are apart of the kingdom of God.

Luke 17:21 - Adam Clarke
The kingdom of God was among the Jews, or rather within some of them. It was a spiritual kingdom, set up in the heart by the power of Divine grace. Observe how it had been with sinners formerly, and in what state the judgments of God, which they had been warned of, found them. Here is shown what a dreadful surprise this destruction will be to the secure and sensual. Thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. When Christ came to destroy the Jewish nation by the Roman armies, that nation was found in such a state of false security as is here spoken of. In like manner, when Jesus Christ shall come to judge the world, sinners will be found altogether regardless; for in like manner the sinners of every age go on securely in their evil ways, and remember not their latter end. But wherever the wicked are, who are marked for eternal ruin, they shall be found by the judgments of God.

Mr 9:1 ¶ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The kingdom of God has already been established....it's a spiritual kingdom.



How can a kingdom be "within you?" and whats the point of having a kingdom lodged inside of you? I really don't get why this is so complicated. I think people hold to much to creeds and orthodoxy that they miss simplicity and reason.

drew
Jan 25th 2008, 07:27 PM
If the Kingdom of God is here now, then it seems like it's quite a bit of a failure. The world today is not a godly place, in case you hadn't noticed. The world thrives on sin, so if this is the Kingdom of God, surely we've been mislead to believe that, 'Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven', could possibly bring about perfection.
Hello protothor:

I hear you abnd agree that the world is mired in sin, but I think that we have to take Jesus and Paul's word on things. Jesus identified the inauguration of the kingdom of God with his own entry into the world 2000 years ago. When He gave the great commission, he was insrtucting us to implement kingdom values in this very world in the here and now. The great commission to "make disciples of all the nations" is not for the time after the return of Christ - it is for right now.

And to me the following text is proof that Jesus is saying the Kingdom of God began with His resurrection from the dead 2000 years ago:

And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

Jesus is obviously speaking of the resurrection as inaugurating the kingdom of God.

Plus, we have Paul announcing the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Despite what most probably believe, the "gospel" is not news about "how to be saved", it is the announcement that Jesus Christ is the Davidic Messiah who has been raised to life and is now the ruler of this present world, supplanting Ceasar."

The word "gospel" was used in that time to announce the ascendency of a new emperor. Paul knew that and is clearly saying "Jesus is Lord and, by implication, Caesar is not".

faithfulfriend
Jan 25th 2008, 07:30 PM
How can a kingdom be "within you?" and whats the point of having a kingdom lodged inside of you? I really don't get why this is so complicated. I think people hold to much to creeds and orthodoxy that they miss simplicity and reason.

I have a .doc file that is 130+ pages concerning the "Kingdom of God"

I can attach it if interested....

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2008, 07:33 PM
Well that can't be so. God cannot be tempted and its says Jesus was tempted. Also God cannot die, and yet Jesus died.


So there are contradictions with that. When it comes to doctrines, especially the sacred cows, many people throw logic and reason right out the window.


I stand corrected. Actually I'm sitting down right now..oh well you know what I mean...:D

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2008, 07:38 PM
I think Jesus is the Kingdom of God, where Jesus is there is the Kingdom!
Alas, I started a study of the K o G but got sidetracked. Here is one thought:
2 Tim 4:18 it reads The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever.
Assuming Paul wrote Timothy then looks like the heavenly kingdom is also somewhere other than on earth. Paul was saved and was already on earth but says the Lord will bring him safely to His heavenly Kingdom.

I sympathise greatly with Paul. I was like "get me out of here put me back in! Put me back in!! take me back to heaven" from day one upon touching down to earth. Kind of like that look who's talking baby..what was his name? I think it was Mikey..:)

LittleIronRod
Jan 25th 2008, 07:43 PM
Drew, I am guessing you are a fan of NT Wright based on your definition of "gospel" regarding a new Caesar. I think that is great, it has been very helpful in my own reading.

Often I feel that people's definition of the Kingdom of God is derived from modern day evangelicalism rather than what the disciples of Jesus heard when Jesus spoke it in 1st Century Israel. The people that Jesus speaks about the Kingdom being in/among you is significant I believe...look into that one.

Why is it then when Christians are asked to define the Kingdom of God they so often run to "the Kingdom is within you" text rather than the countless other occasion Jesus used it. As was noted above, for Jesus to start and summarize his ministry in Mark 1:14-15 telling people to "repent because the Kingdom of God is near" do we really believe that what is was saying was the repent because (1) the church was going to be established on Pentecost or (2) I am coming to sit on the throne of your heart?

How about repent because the day of judgment is coming, the day when the Messiah's rule begins and the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are cut off, to not inherit the land - that sounds like the Psalms and Prophets before him....rather than Plato or Rick Warren :-)

Sallip
Jan 25th 2008, 07:48 PM
Amen littleironrod.



Psalm 37 mentions 5 times that the righteous will inherit the land!

doulosXristous
Jan 25th 2008, 07:50 PM
The Old Testament predicts a glorious future of the people of God. The following is a brief sketch of the Hope painted across the canvas of the Jewish Bible. Notice that going to heaven is not at all in view here.

In the last days, the mountain on which Jerusalem sits will be raised above the other hills (Isaiah 2:2). The population of the city will swell (Isaiah 49:19 and 20) as ransomed men arrive at Zion and are shouting for joy (Isaiah 35:10; 51:11; and 60:4). The city will be greatly extended in size (Isaiah 54:3; Revelation 21:16 and 17), built up by foreigners (Isaiah 60:10), and decorated with many different precious stones (Isaiah 54:11 and 12; Revelation 21:18-21). The glory of Yahweh will be manifested in the city (Isaiah 60:1-3). All nations will stream to it (Isaiah 49:22) in order to be instructed by the word of Yahweh (Isaiah 2:3; 11:9). No longer will the inhabitants fear (Ezekiel 34:28) or be oppressed (Isaiah 54:14-17) but will be joyful continually (Isaiah 65:19). Kings and princesses will bow down to Jerusalem and lick the dust of her feet (Isaiah 49:23; 60:11, 14) in the restored city (Isaiah 52:8). The city will become very wealthy from the nations who come to it (Isaiah 60:5-7, 9, 11, 17; 61:6 and 7). The gates of the city will never close day or night (Isaiah 60:11).
Jerusalem will not be the only city affected by the Kingdom. Judgment will be passed on the nations (Isaiah 2:4) in order to bring justice (Isaiah 42:1). The proud will be abased so that Yahweh alone will be exalted (Isaiah 2:12, 17). All nations will serve Jerusalem or else perish (Isaiah 60:12).

The physical earth will be restored (Acts 3:21) to its pre-fallen glory as an old junked car may be worked on for years and end up as the front-runner in a parade. New heavens and earth will be created (Isaiah 65:17). The desert will embrace rivers so that the chosen people may drink (Isaiah 43:19 and 20). The land will be restored because of the servant of Yahweh (Isaiah 49:8). There will no longer be famine (Ezekiel 34:29). The mountains will be made into a road (Isaiah 49:11). No longer will the sun or moon be necessary for light because Yahweh will be an everlasting light (Isaiah 60:19; Revelation 21:23). The people of God will possess the land forever (Isaiah 60:21).

The weapons of war will be turned into tools of agriculture (Isaiah 2:4), and violence will be abolished (Isaiah 60:18). There will be peace and righteousness in Jerusalem forever (Isaiah 54:10; 60:17). The animals will no longer be carnivorous or violent (Isaiah 11:6-8; 65:25). Even the beasts of the field, jackals and ostriches, will glorify Yahweh (Isaiah 43:20). People will be able to sleep in the woods (Ezekiel 34:25). In fact, nothing will hurt or destroy anymore (Isaiah 11:9). Sorrow will flee away (Isaiah 51:11; 60:20; 61:2 and 3; 65:19), and death will be swallowed up for all time (Isaiah 25:7 and 8). God will wipe the tears away from all faces (Isaiah 25:8). People will no longer hunger, thirst, nor be harmed by the scorching sun (Isaiah 49:10).

The knowledge of Yahweh will be as the waters that cover the sea (Isaiah 11:9; Habakkuk 2:14). His people will know His name (Isaiah 52:6), be taught by Him (Isaiah 54:13), and live righteous lives (Isaiah 60:21). They will be called priests of Yahweh (Isaiah 61:6).

The agent of this new creation, expanded knowledge, and super government will be the Messiah. He was to be a son born of the lineage of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1). He will carry the government on his shoulders (Isaiah 9:6). Yahweh will empower him to accomplish this (Isaiah 9:7; 50:7, 9) by infusing him with His spirit (Isaiah 11:2). This man will cause peace to be over his Kingdom (Isaiah 9:7), be a light to the nations (Isaiah 42:6; 49:6), and have the very words of Yahweh in his mouth (Deuteronomy 18:18; Isaiah 51:16). He will sit on the throne of David and uphold justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore (Isaiah 9:7). He will open the eyes of the blind and free those imprisoned in dungeons (Isaiah 42:7; 49:9, 25; 61:1). He will always be fair to the disadvantaged and destroy the wicked (Isaiah 11:4; 49:26; 50:9 and 10). One could even say that he wears righteousness and faithfulness as belts around his waist (Isaiah 11:5).

God will prosper him and exalt him greatly (Isaiah 52:13; Philippians 2:9 and 10). Kings will pay homage to him (Psalms 2:10-12) and have nothing to say out of astonishment (Isaiah 52:15). Jesus will rule for a thousand years with the faithful saints (Revelation 20:4) and then he will hand the Kingdom over to his Father (I Corinthians 15:25-28). This brief description is typical of the understanding that the Jews of Jesus' time would associate with the proclamation, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the good news!" (Mark 1:14 and 15).

The kingdom is not the church. The apostles went about preaching the kingdom of God (Acts 8:12, 19:8, 28:23); it is impossible to substitute 'church' for 'kingdom' in such passages. It has just been shown what the Kingdom message entailed on the basis of the Old Testament. It is impossible to imagine that Jesus would have allegorized every one of these references in order to change the Kingdom of God from a physical reality to an abstract idea.

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 07:52 PM
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

Jesus is obviously speaking of the resurrection as inaugurating the kingdom of God.


Drew, I have no doubt that Paul preached the Jesus was the Messiah, and as such, the true Davidic king, even greater than Caeser, but at the same time, like Sallip has said, Satan is the god of this age, so how then is the Kingdom of God here and now if Satan is still in charge of the here and now? It seems to make much more sense for the Kingdom to be seated in the future, the return of Christ auditing its beginning, rather than his ressurection.

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2008, 07:53 PM
Amen littleironrod.



Psalm 37 mentions 5 times that the righteous will inherit the land!

Don't forget only God is righteous though..;) How will we inherit it being unrighteous..through God's Grace Mercy and Love..

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 07:55 PM
Amen, slaveofChrist (doulosXristous).

drew
Jan 25th 2008, 07:55 PM
Drew, I am guessing you are a fan of NT Wright......
As Ed McMahon used to say to Johnny (are you old enough to remember that?)....."you are correct sir!"

drew
Jan 25th 2008, 07:59 PM
It seems to make much more sense for the Kingdom to be seated in the future, the return of Christ auditing its beginning, rather than his ressurection.
But how can that be true in light of this statement from Jesus:

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power

Jesus was talking to real people 2000 years ago. If the kingdom of God has not yet come, are these people still alive? How can Jesus be saying anything else here than "when I am raised, the kingdom of God has arrived".

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2008, 08:02 PM
Amen littleironrod.



Psalm 37 mentions 5 times that the righteous will inherit the land!

Hey Sallip I tried to send you a PM to welcome you aboard. You haven't posted enough yet for me to do so. Hope you don't mind. God bless In Christ.

Stephen

You won't be able to PM me until you've posted about 30 times I think. Until then Godspeed..In Christ

Jaired
Jan 25th 2008, 08:05 PM
drew,
Some of the disciples were given visions of the kingdom, this is what I believe what Jesus meant when he said that his disciples would not taste death until the had seen the Kingdom. read later on in Luke 9 and you will see.

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 08:08 PM
But how can that be true in light of this statement from Jesus:

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power

Jesus was talking to real people 2000 years ago. If the kingdom of God has not yet come, are these people still alive? How can Jesus be saying anything else here than "when I am raised, the kingdom of God has arrived".

Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up into the mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he was praying, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became white and dazzling.
Luk 9:30 And behold, there talked with him two men, who were Moses and Elijah;
Luk 9:31 who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luk 9:32 Now Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: but when they were fully awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
Luk 9:33 And it came to pass, as they were parting from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah: not knowing what he said.
Luk 9:34 And while he said these things, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
Luk 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my Son, my chosen: hear ye him.
Luk 9:36 And when the voice came, Jesus was found alone. And they held their peace, and told no man in those days any of the things which they had seen.

---

Peter and John and James saw a vision eight days after this of the kingdom, thus bringing truth to the statement made in Luke 9:27

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2008, 08:12 PM
How can a kingdom be "within you?" and whats the point of having a kingdom lodged inside of you? I really don't get why this is so complicated. I think people hold to much to creeds and orthodoxy that they miss simplicity and reason.

If Jesus is inside of all believers - or specifically, if the Holy Spirit is alive within all believers, then he is indeed in us, and we are in him - as Lord's Body makes up the Kingdom of God, with the Father being the head. :)

All those In Christ do indeed possess the Kingdom within them...;)

thekingdomcoming
Jan 25th 2008, 08:22 PM
But how can that be true in light of this statement from Jesus:

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power

Jesus was talking to real people 2000 years ago. If the kingdom of God has not yet come, are these people still alive? How can Jesus be saying anything else here than "when I am raised, the kingdom of God has arrived".

when Jesus said that he was refuring top the day of pentacost, where they were able to speak in tongues because no one was able to do that before, and the holy spirit allows them to do it now.

tgallison
Jan 25th 2008, 08:41 PM
Well that can't be so. God cannot be tempted and its says Jesus was tempted. Also God cannot die, and yet Jesus died.


So there are contradictions with that. When it comes to doctrines, especially the sacred cows, many people throw logic and reason right out the window.

Sallip Greetings

You don't have a very good argument for Jesus not being God.

Where does it say that Jesus's Spirit died? The flesh died, but is God flesh and blood, or is He Spirit?

In Jesus Christ, terrell

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 08:53 PM
Terell,
Jesus was tempted by Satan. Temptation cannot happen unless there is something that you want. God being God would not need or want anything, thus anything that Satan would offer would not be a temptation to God.

Your argument that only the flesh and blood of Jesus died is an entirely Platonic argument. Plato was the originator of the idea of separation of body and spirit, and as thus, cannot be applied here. Where in the bible to you get the idea that the human spirit ever leaves the body? If you can show me this, perhaps your argument may be bolstered as well.

Peace be with you,
Ian

drew
Jan 25th 2008, 08:54 PM
Peter and John and James saw a vision eight days after this of the kingdom, thus bringing truth to the statement made in Luke 9:27
You may be right - I will withdraw the use of this text as "evidence". I am half inclined to argue that Jesus is still referring to the resurrection in the statement, despite the fact that the vision account immediately follows. Or perhaps He meant both.

In any event, we still have other texts which rather clearly show that the Kingdom of God came into being 2000 years ago and does not lie in the future:

"I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

This is a pointed critique of the Jews and an allusion to the "tue Israel" that will be constituted by both Jews and Gentiles. Its hard to believe that this event lies in the future. Paul constructs a compelling case that this "transfer" has occurred precisely in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

I do not know how we can read this in a manner where people are not already "receiving the kingdom of God". This cannot lie in the future, since the "receiving" plainly happens in people's lives in the here and now.

But I think the following is the clincher:

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on [B]until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Is Jesus referring to something that lies in the future of those of us who live in January 2008? Obviously not, since we know that Jesus has already drunk with his followers before his ascension. From Acts 10:

We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2008, 08:55 PM
Terell,
Jesus was tempted by Satan. Temptation cannot happen unless there is

Do you believe God is omniscient?

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2008, 09:52 PM
How can a kingdom be "within you?" and whats the point of having a kingdom lodged inside of you? I really don't get why this is so complicated. I think people hold to much to creeds and orthodoxy that they miss simplicity and reason.

Well, Jesus said it was within us.

Luke 17:20-21

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
KJV

The Greek word "within" is as follows...

NT:1787 entos (en-tos'); from NT:1722; inside (adverb or noun):

KJV - within.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2008, 09:59 PM
Hi folks. Just a quick reference to forum rules. Let's keep this in line...

Unorthodox teachings of ANY of these religions will be moved to the "World Religions" Forum:

1. Seventh Day Adventist (SDA)
2. Jehovah's Witnesses (JW)
3. Latter Day Saints (LDS)
4. ANY non-Christian religion, such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, etc.
5. Roman Catholicism.
6. Oneness/Non-Trinity
7. Universalism of any form to include Universal Reconciliation


If the deity of Christ is questioned, or if the Trinity is questioned, the thread will be moved.

Thanks!

Mark

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 10:11 PM
Drew,

"I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

Jesus seems to be saying here that the Jews that he was speaking to were not living righteous lives, and thus even the tax collectors and prostitutes were more righteous than them.

I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Why does this mean that the Kingdom is in the future? Jesus is saying that if people do not accept the message of the Kingdom of God totally, like a small child, they will never enter into it when he returns.

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on [B]until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Well, being as everyone who dies stays dead until Jesus comes back, why is not more sensible to understand this as part of the Messianic Banquet as described in Revelation? Jesus is saying that he will not drink wine until the days after he has returned in glory to take over and rule the world from New Jerusalem.

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 10:21 PM
Brother Mark, could you direct me to the World Religions forum, because I could not find it earlier.

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2008, 10:22 PM
Brother Mark, could you direct me to the World Religions forum, because I could not find it earlier.

Hi Protothor. When you have at least 40 post and have been here at least 30 days, those forums will be available to you. Sorry for the inconvenience.

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 10:26 PM
Is there any way that I can PM you to discuss things not related to this board, or if I have questions? Because dialouge between you and I may clog up the board. :]

tgallison
Jan 25th 2008, 10:37 PM
Terell,
Jesus was tempted by Satan. Temptation cannot happen unless there is something that you want. God being God would not need or want anything, thus anything that Satan would offer would not be a temptation to God.

Your argument that only the flesh and blood of Jesus died is an entirely Platonic argument. Plato was the originator of the idea of separation of body and spirit, and as thus, cannot be applied here. Where in the bible to you get the idea that the human spirit ever leaves the body? If you can show me this, perhaps your argument may be bolstered as well.

Peace be with you,
Ian

Ian

1 corinthians 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Luke 23:46 “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”

Matthew 12:43

Mark 1:26---Mark 5:8---Mark 7:29---Mark 9:25-26

Luke 8:29---Luke 8:55

John 1:32---John 3:5-6

Acts 7:59 “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Romans 8:5---Romans 8:9-10

1 Corinthians 5:5 “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

Galatians 1:16

1 Timothy 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”



terrell

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2008, 10:38 PM
Is there any way that I can PM you to discuss things not related to this board, or if I have questions? Because dialouge between you and I may clog up the board. :]

You can start a thread in chat2mods if you like. The PM function won't work for 30 days either. In chat2mods only you and the mods will be able to see what you post. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Grace,

Mark

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 10:42 PM
1 Corinthians 5:5 “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

The 'day of the Lord Jesus' here; can this not be referrring to his second coming, the 'great and glorious day of the Lord'?

1 Corinthians 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

Flesh and blood are of the world, and as such, are of sin. Thus this body cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2008, 10:45 PM
1 Corinthians 5:5 “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

The 'day of the Lord Jesus' here; can this not be referrring to his second coming, the 'great and glorious day of the Lord'?

1 Corinthians 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

Flesh and blood are of the world, and as such, are of sin. Thus this body cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

But there is more to us here than just "this body". The kingdom is one in Spirit as well and my Spirit is alive and well and walking in the kingdom, just as Jesus did.

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 10:55 PM
Brother Mark,

Do you mean to tell me that you believe that, right now, your Spirit is walking in the Kingdom of God, the selfsame Kingdom as preached by Jesus? I may have misread what you were trying to say, but this is a foreign idea to me. Please elaborate.

Ian

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2008, 10:58 PM
I sure do Ian. Here's a thread about it that was written a while back. It's only a start, but it might be interesting to you.

The next step (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=99462&highlight=the+next+step)

Grace,

Mark

tgallison
Jan 25th 2008, 10:58 PM
kingdom (Basileia [S G932]) 1. royal power, kingship, dominion, rule

a. not to be confused with an actual kingdom, but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom.

terrell

tgallison
Jan 25th 2008, 11:07 PM
The parable of the mustard seed.

Mustard seed is found only 5 times in the New Testament. 3 times relating to the parable of the tree and two times refers to faith.

One might guess that the tree represents faith. As new members are added into the kingdom of God, the body of Christ, the tree grows larger.

The faith represents the power of the kingdom. Thus you have "If you had the faith of a grain of mustard seed, you could remove mountains."

Actually the tree represents the body of believers with their faith.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

protothor
Jan 25th 2008, 11:19 PM
Terell,
In my Greek dictionary, the word Basileia, -as, -h; is said to mean kingdom, realm, or reign. So, in the same accoutrament, the Greek word Basileia literally translates to a physical, tangible kingdom.
Bless God,
Ian

tgallison
Jan 25th 2008, 11:54 PM
Terell,
In my Greek dictionary, the word Basileia, -as, -h; is said to mean kingdom, realm, or reign. So, in the same accoutrament, the Greek word Basileia literally translates to a physical, tangible kingdom.
Bless God,
Ian

Ian greetings

If your definition is correct, than one would think that out of the 162 times the word is found in the New Testament, you would surely be able to locate it.

Do you think?

terrell

protothor
Jan 26th 2008, 01:26 AM
Terrell,
I'm not sureI understand what you're asking. It is the same word, to my knowledge.

Spelled Beta, alpha, sigma, iota, lambda, epsilon, iota, alpha?

Clifton
Jan 26th 2008, 01:36 AM
Some say the kingdom is in heaven, others say it is in the hearts of the body of Christ, and some say that the kingdom is going to be inaugurated on earth at Jesus' second coming. So my question to you is this, which is it? Feedback will be much appreciated.

No wonder no one was replying to my question - there is a thread already on this :B

The Kingdom of God, (or "Heaven", as it is mostly used in Matthew) is among, and within, and beyond us. It is up to us to respond to it, or whatever is "at hand".

Regarding Matthew's terminology:
“Kingdom of Heaven” in Matthew: Matthew makes references to God as “Heaven” or “the Kingdom of Heaven” consistent with First Century Jewish practice that avoided usage of the Divine Name YHWH; and the author emphasizes Yeshua as the “Son of Man” or the “Son of David.”

The kingdom of God / Heaven and The State Of Eternal Life are not the same. Heaven is where believers go when they die. The Wycliffe Bible Dictionary p.991 says that many teach the kingdom of God refers to the spiritual rule of Christ within the heart of those who are saved. The International Dictionary of the Bible p.568 says that in general, the word "kingdom" can be
a) the realm over which the king reigns,
b) the people over whom the king reigns, or
c) the actual reign itself.
The New International Bible Dictionary (1962 IVP) says the Kingdom of God as present as well as future aspects. So clearly, the Kingdom of God is broader than Heaven, as it includes present earthly aspects. Heaven can be broader than the Kingdom of God, as it is possible that infants and others do not join the kingdom of God until they get to Heaven.

Ah, finally got my 2 cents in - I can kick back and relax now :D

tgallison
Jan 26th 2008, 01:49 AM
Terrell,
I'm not sureI understand what you're asking. It is the same word, to my knowledge.

Spelled Beta, alpha, sigma, iota, lambda, epsilon, iota, alpha?

Ian

What I am saying is we differ on the meaning of the word.

The best way to determine the meaning of the word is in examining the context of the 162 verses that it is found in.

In the volume of those 162 verses, one would think the location of the kingdom could be easily determined, if it is a single location. If those verses are in reference to a power, and not necessarily a particular location, then it would indeed be difficult to determine a location.

terrell

doulosXristous
Jan 26th 2008, 03:11 AM
The Bible does NOT say that the kingdom of God is within you. This is a mistranslation in the KJV that has been corrected in the modern versions. Besides, if Jesus were saying that the kingdom is within you, it wouldn't make any sense considering those he was talking to were disbelieving Pharisees! He is saying that the kingdom will be in their midst when it comes. Please read the verses after Luke 17.21 to get the rest of the context. He is talking about the people who will be there when the kingdom comes (i.e. "they will not say..."). click here (http://kingdomready.org/blog/2007/12/26/the-kingdom-of-god-is-within-you/) for more on this.

The kingdom is NOT here yet. Please consider these verses.


6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." 7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. 9 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"


13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed...18 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'... 21 "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom... 26 'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'



2 Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. 3 And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.


6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.


Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. 3 And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; 4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. 5 Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist. 6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7 Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.

These texts and many more need to be taken as the backdrop for any discussion on the kingdom of God. Jesus pulls extensively from Isaiah, Daniel, and the Psalms. This kingdom idea is not new. David was promised that one of his descendants would sit on the throne and rule forever (1 Chron 17.11-14) and Gabriel the angel confirms to us unequivocally that Jesus is that descendant (Luke 1.31-33).

To say that the kingdom is within you misses the vast, beautiful stretches of Scripture and mutates the true hope of Christians into a foggy Platonism.

walked
Jan 26th 2008, 04:33 AM
When God was walking among man on earth in the garden, Gods kingdom was on earth.

When God was walking on earth as a man in Christ Jesus Gods kingdom was on earth.

When God Spirit is in the hearts of men and women walking on earth Gods kingdom is on earth.

In short, Gods kingdom is where God is...
At times its in heaven alone and at times in on earth and heaven at the same time.

When Christ Jesus returns to earth to claim His inheritance paid for by Him on the cross, then Gods kingdom will be established on earth eternally as it has been established in heaven eternally since the beginning of creation.

protothor
Jan 26th 2008, 04:44 AM
Walked,

Do you have Biblical evidece to support these statements?

Peace,
Ian

walked
Jan 26th 2008, 05:47 AM
The entire bible is the evidence in OT and NT.

Where God is, is the kingdom of God.
Do a search on Jesus speaking the words 'the kingdom of God is near' or 'the kingdom of God is at hand' or His disciples teaching that 'the kingdom of God is within you'

grit
Jan 26th 2008, 06:00 AM
Some say the kingdom is in heaven, others say it is in the hearts of the body of Christ, and some say that the kingdom is going to be inaugurated on earth at Jesus' second coming. So my question to you is this, which is it? Feedback will be much appreciated.
While there certainly are nuances of meaning, just as there are when 'church' is discussed, I find the Scriptures to be clear that God is sovereign over all His creation, and as such His Kingship is all-encompassing. There's a lot said these days in certain Christian circles about kingdom dynamics as they pertain to a Chritian presence in this world. The nuance that mostly comes to bear on the question of the OP is where Jesus distinguishes his kingdom as "not of this world" - perhaps most poignantly in John 18, where Jesus, before Pilate and being asked, "Are You the King of the Jews?", answers, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm" (v. 36, updated NASB). And in the very next verse he affirms, "You say correctly that I am a king [note: not, "will be", or "not yet"]. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth."

There's quite a lot conveyed in this brief encounter with this worldly Roman governor or procurator of Judea and the Jews, not the least of which are aspects of Jesus' kingdom which are both consistent and paradoxically dissimilar from the eternal sovereignty of God in both the natural and supernatural realms of His creation. These distictions need not confound us nor set us at odds with both the establishment and preeminence of Christ in all things.

tgallison
Jan 26th 2008, 01:22 PM
Walked,

Do you have Biblical evidece to support these statements?

Peace,
Ian

Ian Hi

I too sought out understanding. I asked how can this Bible be true. God did not answer me with head knowledge, but with heart knowledge. Once I had heart knowledge, the head knowledge came with reading God's word.

God is the revealer of all truth. He says, those that seek me with a meek and contrite spirit will find me. It worked for me.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Brother Mark
Jan 26th 2008, 01:26 PM
The Bible does NOT say that the kingdom of God is within you. This is a mistranslation in the KJV that has been corrected in the modern versions. Besides, if Jesus were saying that the kingdom is within you, it wouldn't make any sense considering those he was talking to were disbelieving Pharisees! He is saying that the kingdom will be in their midst when it comes. Please read the verses after Luke 17.21 to get the rest of the context. He is talking about the people who will be there when the kingdom comes (i.e. "they will not say...").

Actually, it does make sense that it was in the pharisees. But unfortunately, they rejected the purpose for which they were made. Everyone is made for the kingdom. Just like fish are made for water, and water is in fish. But alas, just because one has the kingdom in them, doesn't mean they are in the kingdom. ;)

The Greek word that the KJV translates is correctly translated "within" or "inside". I gave the definition of the word above.

Clifton
Jan 26th 2008, 08:41 PM
The Bible does NOT say that the kingdom of God is within you.

Actually, it states just that. If you understood the Greek word εντος (entos), you would know that. Depending on the modifiers, εν in itself means things like "in" and "with".


This is a mistranslation in the KJV that has been corrected in the modern versions.

I find it fascinating that you "single-out" the KJV as if it were the only one. Actually, the translation in the KJV is literally CORRECT, even if it said "INSIDE you" it would be correct, and there is no "correction" in "modern versions", just a different reasonable rendering or an non-literal one, or, at their own liberties, based on assumptions (IOW, "we got the correct the Greek").

Let's look at some of the "modern versions", even of this decade and century, and even of those employing the formal and dynamic equivalence of translating:

(ACV) nor will they say, Lo, here! or, Lo, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is inside of you.

(ALT) neither will they say, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' For listen! The kingdom of God is within [or, among] you*." {you will no doubt like the "among" variation}

(CENT) nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

(ERV) People will not say, ‘Look, God’s kingdom is here!’ Or, ‘There it is!’ No, God’s kingdom is inside you.” [275]

(GW) They can't say, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!' You see, the kingdom of God is within you."

(HNV) neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

(IAV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the Kingdom of Elohim is within you.

(Lamsa) Neither will they say, Behold, it is here! or, behold, it is there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(MRC) "nor will they say, 'Behold, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."

(UPDV) neither will they say, Look, here! Or, There! For look, the kingdom of God is inside you+.

(WEB) neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

(YLT) nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

And there is much more, but let's break away from those and look at some interesting ones, at least one you will like (AUV):

These two are interesting:
(ESV) nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

(CEV) There is no use saying, 'Look! Here it is' or 'Look! There it is.' God's kingdom is here with you." {apparently deciding Christ is the Kingdom Of God in their midst}

Here's one I guess you term as "corrected"::P
(AUV-NT) People will not be saying, ‘Look, here [it is]!’ or ‘There [it is]!’ For in fact, the kingdom of God is [now] among you [i.e., as represented by the presence and ministry of Jesus].”

And I EXCLUDED the MODERNized versions of KJV, since you seemed to have "singled-out" the KJV Bible, as if it were the only one using rendering entos the way did - CORRECTLY.


Besides, if Jesus were saying that the kingdom is within you,

According to the Book Of Luke, he said just that.


it wouldn't make any sense considering those he was talking to were disbelieving Pharisees!

Where do you get that these particular sects, or any persons of one of more of those sects of the Pharisees were disbelieving? There were at least 7 sects of them - on what grounds do you use a broad brush that parallels with racisms?:hmm: Do you just assume that they were the bad ones referenced previously in 16:14? What does not make any sense is that those types of Pharisees would even ask the question about the Kingdom Of God if they didn't believe him - on top of that, you simply have no idea of what time passed since 16:14, and which sects or persons of that sect in c.17;

If some Americans were to ask Christ a question today, and they were murders, and He pointed that out, would that make ALL Americans murders, or even the next bunch of Americans He spoke with and asked answers, also Murders?

What do you think became of Nicodemus?

Another thing is that when one would asked Christ something, He would respond to ALL of those present that could hear - that is the way He operated. ;)


He is saying that the kingdom will be in their midst when it comes.

No such Greek, No such English either - you have preformed some verb shifting:

It says "for behold, the kingdom of God is (PRESENT TENSE) within you."
Not, "the kingdom of God will be (FUTURE TENSE) within you."



Please read the verses after Luke 17.21 to get the rest of the context. He is talking about the people who will be there when the kingdom comes (i.e. "they will not say...").

That context ends at verse 21. And again,
It says "for behold, the kingdom of God is (PRESENT TENSE) within you."
You are probably referring to v.20, "they will not say...", which in context, shows, they will not need to say it, because it is here.


click here (http://kingdomready.org/blog/2007/12/26/the-kingdom-of-god-is-within-you/) for more on this.I clicked on your link, and saw it was something a read a few months ago. The web page "delimits" things and uses the broad brush which I mention above in this post.


The kingdom is NOT here yet. Yes it is - the Bible shows that - in the Greek - and the other languages translating from it. ;)


Please consider these verses. These texts and many more need to be taken as the backdrop for any discussion on the kingdom of God. Jesus pulls extensively from Isaiah, Daniel, and the Psalms. This kingdom idea is not new. David was promised that one of his descendants would sit on the throne and rule forever (1 Chron 17.11-14) and Gabriel the angel confirms to us unequivocally that Jesus is that descendant (Luke 1.31-33).None of those verses you posted refers to the phrase "Kingdom Of God/Heaven", especially with the qualifier "of God". There are many "kingdoms", and can be.


To say that the kingdom is within you misses the vast, beautiful stretches of Scripture and mutates the true hope of Christians into a foggy Platonism.It is within the hearts, among us, and at hand (it is up to people to respond to it. - something you learn later in Greek Classes, regarding what "at hand" really means).

I'll post a more, but mild, analytical and exegesis breakdown in the next post, and the Greek Dictionary of ENTOS (which I intended for the thread I started on this)...

Clifton
Jan 26th 2008, 08:50 PM
1787 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1787). εντος entos; adverb. From en (1722 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1722)), in. Within. Used also as a preposition with the genitive (Luke 17:21 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Luke&chapter=17&verse=21), “the kingdom of God is within you,” meaning it is located in your heart and affections, not external). With the neuter definite article, to entos, the inside (Matthew 23:26 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Matthew&chapter=23&verse=26); Septuagint: Psalms 39:3 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Psalms&chapter=39&verse=3); 109:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Psalms&chapter=109&verse=22)).

Synonyms. esothen (2081 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2081)), from within, within; eso (2080 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2080)), within.

Antonyms: ektos (1622 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1622)), outside; exothen (1855 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1855)), from without; exo 1854 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1854)), without.

Greek Dictionary of NT (Koine) Greek, WDNT, 1992, (KDNT) Zodhiates, AMG International, page 594 for 1787. entos. (Abbreviations were expanded into their full forms; Psalms 39:4 was corrected to Psalms 39:3, conforming with the Online Net Bible Links used here in this post.)

Septuagint:
Psalms 39:3 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Psalms&chapter=39&verse=3) (LXXE) (38:3) My heart grew hot within me, and a fire would kindle in my meditation: I spoke with my tongue,

Psalms 109:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Psalms&chapter=109&verse=22) (LXXE) (108:22) Deliver me, for I am poor and needy; and my heart is troubled within me.

Also not referenced in WDNT:
Psalms 103:1 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Psalms&chapter=103&verse=1) ¶ (LXXE) (102:1) [A Psalm] of David. Bless the Lord, O my soul; and all [that is] within me, his holy name.

Luke 17:21b: …the kingdom <932 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=932)> of God <2316 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2316)> is <2076 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=2076)> (5748 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5748)) within <1787 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=1787)> you <5216 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5216)>.

(5748 (http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5748)): [B]PRESENT TENSE, INDICATIVE MOOD

You can click on this link: Luke 17:21 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Luke&chapter=17&verse=21), and see the Interlinear used above, and click on 5748 and 1787 links on that web page as well.

IOW, that is why it does not say, “the kingdom of God WILL (FUTURE TENSE) be within you.” ... it IS (PRESENT TENSE).

Clifton
Jan 26th 2008, 08:53 PM
...[note: not, "will be", or "not yet"]...

Yea ... you noticed the verb shifts too, eh? ;)