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Fenris
Jan 25th 2008, 09:19 PM
Another thread got me to thinking...

Is the Jewish role in God's plan finished?

Or will the Jewish people again factor into God's future plans?

I'm not going to debate anything that gets posted here, because I'm just looking for opinions on the subject. Please post scripture to demonstrate your point; NT is fine but OT is better.

RoadWarrior
Jan 25th 2008, 09:32 PM
Another thread got me to thinking...

Is the Jewish role in God's plan finished?

Or will the Jewish people again factor into God's future plans?

I'm not going to debate anything that gets posted here, because I'm just looking for opinions on the subject. Please post scripture to demonstrate your point; NT is fine but OT is better.

Hi Fenris,

I'll start with an NT quote.

Ro 11:1-5
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
NKJV

Blessings to you, Fenris.

Fenris
Jan 25th 2008, 09:34 PM
Blessing to you too!

It is nearly Sabbath here, so I shall be signing off until tomorrow night.

th1bill
Jan 25th 2008, 10:08 PM
Fenris,
.. I'd be willing to bet that you can make me look ridicules in dealing with Old Testament or Jewish scripture. For that reason I'll just say that God promised never to abandon His chosen people for a thousand generations. That promise was made well before the Christ came to Earth and since we both know that our Heavely Fathers has no sin in Him we know that this promise will hold true.
.. This is very conservative math and it always ticks people off when I go this direction but here are my thoughts on the math. At the time God made this promise a generation, to my understanding, was about 40 years. But I always like to as moderate as I can and most often use the just formerly current rate of 25 years. Using the lessor number that means that our LORD promised the Jew that He would never abandon them for 25,000 years. Personally, I like the 40,000 years much better but either way, I see that God meant that He would never turn His back on the Jewish people.
.. There is a very popular, fast moving novel by a gentleman named Rosenthal, I believe, called The Ezekiel 38 Option. Anyone doing a serious study on Ezekiel 38 cannot but help to agree that this is very possibly exactly what will happen as he has described in his novel. Brother, and to me that term is special, God has and He always will have his remnant. God bless Israel and I believe she will have all her land returned in the next twenty years.

Mark F
Jan 26th 2008, 12:24 AM
Looking back we have Scripture and history to support that the Jews are God's chosen people. They received and kept diligently the Scriptures. They were given land by the miraculous works of God. The prophets were Jews, Jesus came to us through the Jews. The Scriptures say that He came to His own and His did not receive Him. There were consequences and they are very clearly explained in Scripture. God then turned to the gentile nations with the gospel of grace which the Jews rejected. The Scripture also says that the times of the gentiles will be fullfilled and God will restore His people. If people interpret the Scriptures literally, this is what we must come up with, if we interpret the Scriptures and spiritualize these things we get sometimes a wide variety of understandings, IMO. Jesus literally came to earth as the Scriptures said, all that happened to qualify Him as the Messiah that were prophetic were literally fulfilled, why not continue in that tradition? Some prophesy is sybolic, but will have a literal fullfilment.

This is just my opinion, we must all decide and study to know the truth.

RoadWarrior
Jan 27th 2008, 07:22 PM
Another thread got me to thinking...

Is the Jewish role in God's plan finished?

Or will the Jewish people again factor into God's future plans?

I'm not going to debate anything that gets posted here, because I'm just looking for opinions on the subject. Please post scripture to demonstrate your point; NT is fine but OT is better.

Here is one of my favorite OT sections on the issue - I'll not post the whole thing, as I am sure you are familiar with the dry bones story.

Eze 37:21-28
21 "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."'"
NKJV

Revinius
Jan 28th 2008, 03:46 AM
I am no OT commentator but i was under the impression that Christians are the new Israel and Gods people are any who accept the offer of Christs blood. In addition, a physical man made Israel as exists in the 'holy land' today is not something i would put much faith in. Christ said that noone would come to the father but by him yet many of you say that God wouldnt 'abandon' the Jews of today. Without Christ they wont enter Gods kingdom so how do you logically put non-messianic Jews in heaven without Christ?

th1bill
Jan 28th 2008, 04:56 AM
I am no OT commentator but i was under the impression that Christians are the new Israel and Gods people are any who accept the offer of Christs blood. In addition, a physical man made Israel as exists in the 'holy land' today is not something i would put much faith in. Christ said that noone would come to the father but by him yet many of you say that God wouldnt 'abandon' the Jews of today. Without Christ they wont enter Gods kingdom so how do you logically put non-messianic Jews in heaven without Christ?
.. That is such a dangerous pair of tricks to pull. First you spin my words and put lies into my mouth, that's not nice and it is not Christian. I said, without digging for the quote, that God has His remnant. To conclude as you have here is to spin what I said.
.. And you couple that to the one popular teaching that makes God a liar. The Christian does not replace the Jew. The Christian is adopted into the family and for that to happen there must first and foremost, always,, be a family to adopt. And the other popular parable is that we are grafted into the vine. (Lights begin to flash wildly, rockets begin bursting in the air and sirens, thousands of them begin to wail.) To graft a branch into a vine there must be, no less than a living root. That root, to live, must have at least one shoot for the growth of leaves to send the life giving nourishment to the root from the leaves.
.. Christians will never become some new Israel! It is a false teaching and is not based on good theology.

Allegra
Jan 28th 2008, 05:13 AM
I am no OT commentator but i was under the impression that Christians are the new Israel and Gods people are any who accept the offer of Christs blood. In addition, a physical man made Israel as exists in the 'holy land' today is not something i would put much faith in. Christ said that noone would come to the father but by him yet many of you say that God wouldnt 'abandon' the Jews of today. Without Christ they wont enter Gods kingdom so how do you logically put non-messianic Jews in heaven without Christ?

I totally agree.
Look at the parallels of Zechariah, Ezekiel, & Revelation 22- The River of Life-The New Jerusalem.
Rev. 22:1
The River of Life

1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

Immediately following the judgment on Babylon(the harlot-Jerusalem AD70) the new creation comes down from heaven (Rev 21:1). In this new creation, there runs a beautiful, life-giving River. As with the Book of Life, the promise of the River of Life is inextricably linked with the fulfillment of Israel's Covenant promises. Failure to honor this dooms any hope of properly interpreting the Apocalypse.
Israel's hope is connected with the River of Life.
Isaiah 35:4, the River flows at the coming of the Lord in vengeance. In Luke 21:22, the Lord said He was coming in judgment against Jerusalem in vengeance.
In Zechariah 13:1, the fountain for cleansing of Israel would be opened in the day when, "they will look on me whom they have pierced."(12:10) That would be repentance.
But Jesus also predicts His judgment against Jerusalem when He quotes from Zech. 12:10 in Matthew 24:30:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
In Zech.14:1-8, Jerusalem would be pillaged & captured in the Day of the Lord. The references to "in that day" absolutely limit the references to the opening of the River of Life (v.8), to the day of the siege of Jerusalem (AD70), & the Lord's deliverance of His people.
There has always been widespread belief that Zechariah 14 predicted the AD70 Parousia of Jesus. The early Christian writers applied this chapter to Jerusalem's demise. Eusebius, called the father of church history (no doubt a smart one!) says Zechariah 14 predicted, "the final siege of the people by the Romans, through which the whole Jewish race has become subject to their enemies." (Proof of the Gospel, Vol.I)

The righteous remnant had been chosen by 70AD.
Revelation 7:4-8
4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
Rev.14:1 we see them again in heaven bc they were resurrected when the power of the holy people was finally broken (Daniel 12)or 70AD.
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

As I have said before, national Israel of today was a political movement.
All prophecy ended with AD70 regarding the "end of the age" & the end of things according to God's Plan of Salvation for mankind.

Jews were no longer the chosen people. The true Israel were the Jews who became Christians & the the Gentile Christians of the 1st century.
Thus when Christ came in 70AD, ALL Israel was saved, just like St.Paul said.
"And if any come to repentance, they will be grafted back in to the True Olive Tree (true Israel) of God.
It's the same for any unbeliever. Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, etc.. They become adopted "sons" through Christ.

RoadWarrior
Jan 28th 2008, 05:31 AM
Whatever opinions we each might have, the Bible speaks clearly to those who are willing to hear.

Romans 11
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
35 'Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
NKJV

It is unfortunate that Christians have been taught that they are the "new Israel" as if the entire history of the Jews was for nothing. The Jews have been God's people 4000 years longer than Christians have been.

There are many believing Jews today who do not recognize Jesus, but they are still worshipping God. It is very unbecoming of us to be scornful of our older brothers, IMO.

RoadWarrior
Jan 28th 2008, 05:56 AM
I had been planning to post this message here, but have just now posted it elsewhere - so, two for the price of one!
...
If we could read Ephesians without a filter, we would see that Paul was speaking of Jewish believers in Eph. 1:3-12. Then he addresses the Gentile believers starting in verse 13 - " In Him you also trusted ..."

Then when he says this:
Eph 2:6
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Eph 2:14
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation NKJV

He is speaking of Jewish and Gentile believers together.

Eph 2:17-19
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Eph 2:19-20
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

Eph 3:6-7
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
NKJV

....

Somehow I think we will all be weeping when Jesus returns and we all see the truth of our own unbelief and disobedience ... (Zech 12:10)

Allegra
Jan 28th 2008, 06:28 AM
I do not believe Christians are any "new" Israel.
I said Christians are joined with those believing Jews to make THE TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD.
You do misinterpret Romans. When was Paul speaking those words? The apostle Paul was personally responsible for bringing in the "fullness of the Gentiles." To look centuries beyond Paul's ministry for the fullness of the Gentiles, & thus the salvation of Israel, is to deny Paul's emphatic words concerning his personal & pivotal role in God's Scheme. The "short work" of Romans 9:28 is defined by the ministry of Paul.

And in Romans , he says God committed them all to disobedience, so that He would have mercy on them all. Does that mean everyone will be saved? I think not. Because it is conditional it says, that they COME INTO REPENTANCE. And when was this written again? During "the short work."

Revelation 3:7:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David.

Jesus returned with angelic armies in the sky in AD70. Even an unbeliever, Josephus, records this.
You don't have to mourn. Everyone who has confessed Him should have peace in this life & the next.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us.

Praise God!

RoadWarrior
Jan 28th 2008, 06:58 AM
The OP'r does not intend to debate on this thread, nor do I. I have spoken my position, others are free to speak theirs.

Fenris, I think you will soon learn (if you didn't already realize it) that Christians are divided on this issue, as well.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 28th 2008, 08:14 AM
Read Hosea ch.1-3... it's very clear. God will never be done with Israel (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1332452&postcount=25).

Revinius
Jan 28th 2008, 08:39 AM
I just dont think its in line with the character of God to have people that do not worship him (his son) as being saved. Someones blood is not what saves them, Christs blood is what saves those who accept it as atonement. All i know is that Jesus is Lord and that he states that the only way to the father is through him, how can someone therefore default to the father purely because they are a blood descendent of Abraham. Gods people are those that love him and seek a relationship with him. I dont think that means that God isnt through with using those of the Jewish lineage to do his work but on the salvation issue i think the Christian position is pretty straight forward.

I had no intention of twisting you words th1bill, perhaps i read your statement wrongly, perhaps not. I was reading all the posts as a whole and replying to them all with my view.

Ta-An
Jan 28th 2008, 09:14 AM
Fenris..... when you go to Israel, go into the Garden of Gethsemane look at the Olive trees, and allow HaShem to speak to you,
I say this because Romans 11 has already been quoted.
You do know the value of Olive trees, especially in Israel, you also know the symbolic value of these trees.

These trees dies on the inside, yet it's new growth is on the outside, the root is still the same ;) :idea:
The root still support the tree, for how many years are they standing there already?? They probably were witness to what happened there 2000 years ago. If they could speak, what would they tell?? :hmm:

Even tho there is a RC cathedral there, just go into the garden, the RC cathedral to me is only for architectural value and art ;).... yet one can say 'Thank You' to the RC's for preservation of Biblical historical sites.

I truly believe that the Jews still are ..... (We have a saying in Afrikaans, I hope it will sound right in English, as I do not know the Eng. equivalent for the saying) .... occupying the point of His heart. yet for thos who accept Him. The most amazing thing that I have encountered among the Jewish people I meet, is in what they say when you talk to them : "Sorry, I am not a religious Jew" :eek:

How can one be Jewish without being religious?? :hmm:

So yes, I do believe that Israel still plays a major part....

Realist1981
Jan 28th 2008, 09:19 AM
Here is one of my favorite OT sections on the issue - I'll not post the whole thing, as I am sure you are familiar with the dry bones story.

Eze 37:21-28
21 "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."'"
NKJV


Are those unbelieving Jews or believing Jews?

Fenris
Jan 28th 2008, 01:35 PM
Fenris, I think you will soon learn (if you didn't already realize it) that Christians are divided on this issue, as well.

Yes, I noticed. This is all very interesting.

Fenris
Jan 28th 2008, 03:31 PM
F The most amazing thing that I have encountered among the Jewish people I meet, is in what they say when you talk to them : "Sorry, I am not a religious Jew" :eek:

How can one be Jewish without being religious?? :hmm:


Most Jews aren't religious.

The Novelist
Jan 28th 2008, 04:43 PM
Most Jews aren't religious.

People seem to forget that the word Jew has many different meanings...religion, race, country...So being a "Jew" does not necessarily mean that it is a religous conotation.

Not arguing with you Fenris, just supporting your point...

th1bill
Jan 28th 2008, 06:22 PM
The point is that the OP requested "no arguing" and most of us have stated our position and one or two has come here and are dishonoring the OP by totally ignoring the only limit placed on this string. People, don't act like unleard children. Honor God and do not dishonor the OP.

Allegra
Jan 28th 2008, 07:55 PM
The point is that the OP requested "no arguing" and most of us have stated our position and one or two has come here and are dishonoring the OP by totally ignoring the only limit placed on this string. People, don't act like unleard children. Honor God and do not dishonor the OP.
I reread this thread & it seems quite obvious where the arguments were triggered.
A poster, & a Christian btw, gave his opinion, without quoting any previous opinions. Unable to accept that person's opinion imo, I see an argument ensue. Even after that person had to come back & defend his opinion, it seems that you are grasping straws to find a reason why people that do not hold to your opinion, shouldn't answer on this thread at all. :confused
When I initially posted on this thread, I gave my own opinion too. I do not try to deceive myself or others by offering any false hope that contradicts my beliefs.. The OP wanted our opinions. I think if someone is asking that on a public forum, then anyone should be able to state it & not feel like they should only say things that the questioner wants to hear either.


As far as unlearned children goes.... judge not, (Mt 7) is something to consider.

We are suppose to instruct each other gently & with Agape love.

Peace & kindness.

Ta-An
Jan 28th 2008, 09:09 PM
Most Jews aren't religious. Then what is the difference?? :hmm:
Who are religious Jews??

Fenris
Jan 28th 2008, 09:21 PM
Then what is the difference?? :hmm:
Who are religious Jews??The men are wearing Yarmulkes or black hats and the women are wearing wigs or hats.;)

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 28th 2008, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Revinius
I am no OT commentator but i was under the impression that Christians are the new Israel and Gods people are any who accept the offer of Christs blood. In addition, a physical man made Israel as exists in the 'holy land' today is not something i would put much faith in. Christ said that noone would come to the father but by him yet many of you say that God wouldn't 'abandon' the Jews of today. Without Christ they wont enter Gods kingdom so how do you logically put non-messianic Jews in heaven without Christ?In line with the OP of Fenris, i'd like to say something that's been on my heart for a few month now.

The Jews are still very much God's chosen people, and those that read and study the Word and try to follow it to the best of their ability out of love for our Creator, are very much following Yeshua as much as we are, if only from a different angle from the Torah, which is something that should be applied by Christians too. I may not agree with all practices of the Jews when they come from the man made traditional point which is what Yeshua spoke against, but the Law itself is still valid as ever. And i think there are Jews who have the doing the will of the Father down better than some of us Christians do.

With that said ACCM spoke of the olive trees who die from the inside, but the root is still there being what the Jews were taught through the Word which includes things some denominations would rather not agree with.

Therefore it is my belief that the Root = Jews who practice and love Torah still have a very significant role to play in the present and future events of scripture.

Shalom,
Tanja

RoadWarrior
Jan 29th 2008, 12:14 AM
I am no OT commentator but i was under the impression that Christians are the new Israel and Gods people are any who accept the offer of Christs blood. In addition, a physical man made Israel as exists in the 'holy land' today is not something i would put much faith in. Christ said that noone would come to the father but by him yet many of you say that God wouldnt 'abandon' the Jews of today. Without Christ they wont enter Gods kingdom so how do you logically put non-messianic Jews in heaven without Christ?

Someone asked me once how people in OT times got saved. I replied, "The same as people in NT times. By believing in the Messiah." If the religious Jews of today are still looking forward to the coming of Messiah, then I have no reason to doubt their salvation, only to doubt their clarity of vision. But my own vision is often clouded, so I am in no position to judge the blindness of others. If God has chosen to blind them so that we could be grafted in, then that is between God and His blinded chosen people. I can only pray that I will be able to walk alongside in love and kindness, and not be a blind person leading them into a ditch.

Or worse, that I would be a self-righteous religious person who "crossed the road" to avoid being kind to my fellow man.

To answer your question, I don't put anyone in heaven nor keep them out, logically or otherwise. That is God's business. I think you mean the question differently however. I expect that anyone who is believing in Messiah is someone who belongs to Him, and will be in heaven right beside me.

IMO, it will be an honor for me to find myself seated next to Fenris in heaven.

Revinius
Jan 29th 2008, 04:28 AM
To answer your question, I don't put anyone in heaven nor keep them out, logically or otherwise. That is God's business.

Agreed. Its all about faith though, the whole Bible is a history of faith. The inability of Gods people to keep the law in their faith led to the coming of Christ to fulfill the law. Consequently it is again by faith and now only by faith in Gods Grace that we are all saved.

Matt14
Jan 29th 2008, 04:44 AM
The Jews, like Gentiles, must be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. In Christ, there are no Jews or Gentiles, only children of God.

The Messiah has come. The Jewish nation was for the purpose of bringing about Messiah. We should all be one in Christ, and set aside as Christians, not as Jews or Gentiles.

God bless!

Fenris
Jan 29th 2008, 01:30 PM
Someone asked me once how people in OT times got saved. I replied, "The same as people in NT times. By believing in the Messiah." If the religious Jews of today are still looking forward to the coming of Messiah, then I have no reason to doubt their salvation, only to doubt their clarity of vision. Well, the Jewish concept of what the messiah is and his purpose is somewhat different from the Christian one. But that's really a topic for a different thread.


IMO, it will be an honor for me to find myself seated next to Fenris in heaven.
Ah, you are too kind. :hug: The honor would be all mine, really.

Teke
Jan 29th 2008, 01:41 PM
Another thread got me to thinking...

Is the Jewish role in God's plan finished?

Or will the Jewish people again factor into God's future plans?

I'm not going to debate anything that gets posted here, because I'm just looking for opinions on the subject. Please post scripture to demonstrate your point; NT is fine but OT is better.

The Jewish people of Israel are factored into God's future plan by the remnant of them which come to Jesus Christ, their Messiah. Many that are returning to Israel are returning as Christians.

As St Simeon (a Jew of Israel) said, "For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel." (Luke 2:30-32)

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Ta-An
Jan 29th 2008, 08:17 PM
Therefore it is my belief that the Root = Jews who practice and love Torah still have a very significant role to play in the present and future events of scripture.
The root is Yeshua... ;)

David Taylor
Jan 29th 2008, 08:59 PM
Therefore it is my belief that the Root = Jews who practice and love Torah The root is Yeshua... ;)


Jesus has always been the 'root'.

"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD"

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed"




Those who truly love the Torah, (like Moses who wrote it), love Jesus!!!

Jesus said, "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

"Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. "

"Moreover, brethren, I would that ye should be not ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

"By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt"

Fenris
Jan 29th 2008, 09:08 PM
Jesus has always been the 'root'.
Those who truly love the Torah, (like Moses who wrote it), love Jesus!!!
Um, I can't believe I'm saying this, but could you please stay on topic? ;)

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 05:31 PM
Um, I can't believe I'm saying this, but could you please stay on topic? ;)My apologies my friend... it is I who pulled the Root in here.... but really, it enhances what we are saying :)

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 05:37 PM
I don't see it.

David Taylor is talking about people who believe in Jesus. He didn't mention anything about Jews.

RoadWarrior
Jan 30th 2008, 05:41 PM
Fenris, if this is not off-topic, I'd love to hear what the Jews think about your question. The Jewish nation has been through a lot. Do they (you) feel that God is not finished with you?

I also wonder about something related to this, does the Jewish religious community still believe in a Messiah yet to come?

If that's off-topic, maybe you could start a new one or PM me with your answers.

Not for debate, but simply so that we understand your position relative to ours on the subject.

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 05:47 PM
I don't see it.

David Taylor is talking about people who believe in Jesus. He didn't mention anything about Jews. He quoted my response, and explained a bit better :hug:

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 30th 2008, 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post


Therefore it is my belief that the Root = Jews who practice and love Torah still have a very significant role to play in the present and future events of scripture.The root is Yeshua... Sorry ACCM, My wording wasn't so good.... That's essentially what i'm trying to say. Jews who practice Torah have the root who is Yeshua. So in Essence those that don't think Torah is important, are only operating on half the root which if you cut the roots of a plant it will likely (often) die, especially if you cut the main root in half.

EDIT: The same applies to Gentiles who practice Torah

Sorry Fenris, this is my last disruption in this thread.

Shalom,
Tanja

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 06:30 PM
Fenris, if this is not off-topic, I'd love to hear what the Jews think about your question. The Jewish nation has been through a lot. Do they (you) feel that God is not finished with you? Of course He's not.


I also wonder about something related to this, does the Jewish religious community still believe in a Messiah yet to come?
Yes, he is yet to come.

The Jewish position is that the messianic prophecies will be fulfilled in a literal way (well, more literal than Christians believe I guess) with the coming of the messiah. The messiah will gather all the Jewish exiles back to Israel and rebuild the Temple and bring the Jewish people back to the service of God. an era of world peace will be ushered in. The Jews will serve the role as described in Exodus as 'a kingdom of priests' for the rest of the world.

Another point about the Jewish position is that we believe that only the Jews can bring the messiah.

RoadWarrior
Jan 30th 2008, 06:34 PM
Of course He's not.
Yes, he is yet to come.

The Jewish position is that the messianic prophecies will be fulfilled in a literal way (well, more literal than Christians believe I guess) with the coming of the messiah. The messiah will gather all the Jewish exiles back to Israel and rebuild the Temple and bring the Jewish people back to the service of God. an era of world peace will be ushered in. The Jews will serve the role as described in Exodus as 'a kingdom of priests' for the rest of the world.

Another point about the Jewish position is that we believe that only the Jews can bring the messiah.

That confirms what I had understood, thanks. But could you explain a little more in detail, what it means that the Jews "bring the Messiah"?

Also, do you see the return of the Jews to Jerusalem that has been happening in the last century, as a part of the re-gathering?

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 06:54 PM
That confirms what I had understood, thanks. But could you explain a little more in detail, what it means that the Jews "bring the Messiah"?Only the actions of Jewish people are capable of making God send the messiah.


Also, do you see the return of the Jews to Jerusalem that has been happening in the last century, as a part of the re-gathering?
Yes, absolutely!! We are living in an era that is seeing prophecy come true.

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 06:57 PM
Only the actions of Jewish people are capable of making God send the messiah.
What kind of actions Fenris?:hmm:

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 06:59 PM
Only the actions of Jewish people are capable of making God send the messiah..
If this was true.... why are the Jewish people not doing what they need to do to let Him come??:hmm: What are they waiting for??

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 07:00 PM
Only the actions of Jewish people are capable of making God send the messiah.First time He came..... most of the Jews rejected Him :D

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 07:11 PM
What kind of actions Fenris?:hmm:Following the Law.

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 07:12 PM
If this was true.... why are the Jewish people not doing what they need to do to let Him come??:hmm: What are they waiting for??Well, most Jews are not religious... obviously that creates a problem.

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 07:13 PM
First time He came..... most of the Jews rejected Him :DOK, settle down :lol:

RoadWarrior
Jan 30th 2008, 07:40 PM
Following the Law.

Hi Fenris, does this include the temple sacrifices, et al? Is this why there is a group in Jerusalem who are working on restoring the temple furniture in hopes of a rebuilt temple?

Thanks for enlightening us.

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 07:47 PM
Following the Law.Fenris, following the law is like looking into a mirror that tells me I am dead!!
No man can follow and fulfill the whole law.... the law can't give me life... only G_d can....
Okay now I remember,,,,, for the Jews it is one man for all... yes?? so when I am double good it makes up for my brother who ain't good... so why can they not accept this same principal for what Yeshua did for them :hmm:

If/because most Jews are not religious and their religiosity is what is gonna call Messiah.... will He ever come ?? :hmm:

But we know that He shall come again.... :pp, this time to Judge the living and the dead....

Fenris, the building of the "New Temple" will not be built by Messiah....

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 07:51 PM
Hi Fenris, does this include the temple sacrifices, et al?Not at the present time, no. God only wants us to follow the laws that apply to us. At this point in time there is no temple and therefore no sacrifice...



Is this why there is a group in Jerusalem who are working on restoring the temple furniture in hopes of a rebuilt temple?No, they have their own odd motivations. They think that by starting to build the temple God will come and finish it.


Thanks for enlightening us.

It is my pleasure.

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 07:51 PM
OK, settle down :lol:My brother, time is getting so close... and the yearning of my heart is that you will see Him
I am busy studying the Psalms and am amazed at David's concept of Messiah...

RoadWarrior
Jan 30th 2008, 07:59 PM
Not at the present time, no. God only wants us to follow the laws that apply to us. At this point in time there is no temple and therefore no sacrifice...

No, they have their own odd motivations. They think that by starting to build the temple God will come and finish it.


It is my pleasure.

Now I have two fresh question! :rofl: 1. What are the laws that currently apply and how do you determine if they do or do not?

2. As Christians, we believe that the Tanakh is full of prophecies of the coming of the Messiah. I've often thought it would be great to study those from a Jewish perspective. Would you be interested in doing that on this board, maybe in the World Religions forum?

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 07:59 PM
Fenris, following the law is like looking into a mirror that tells me I am dead!!Well, Jews don't feel that way.



No man can follow and fulfill the whole law....Well, the whole law doesn't apply to any one person. Some laws are just for men, or women, or priests, or non-priests... in any case, God does not expect us to be perfect. But He expects us at least to try. Saying it's impossible and throwing my hands up in despair is not what God expects of me.


the law can't give me life... only G_d can.... Levicitus 18:5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them...


Okay now I remember,,,,, for the Jews it is one man for all... yes?? so when I am double good it makes up for my brother who ain't good... so why can they not accept this same principal for what Yeshua did for them :hmm:Umm no. Every person has to do their part.


If/because most Jews are not religious and their religiosity is what is gonna call Messiah.... will He ever come ?? :hmm: If, at a certain time, we do not deserve it, God will send him anyway.


But we know that He shall come again.... :pp, this time to Judge the living and the dead....Umm ok.


Fenris, the building of the "New Temple" will not be built by Messiah....Ok, well someone asked about Jewish beliefs and I shared them. This has somehow resulted in a rather vehement reaction from you. :hmm:

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 07:59 PM
Pardon falling away from your OP, but you were saying about following the law.... the only law that I think G_d wants us to follow, Jew and Christian alike is the 10 commandments.... I believe those will stand as witness against us on the Day of Judgment.... why do I say that... is it not true that the 10 Commandments are in the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven??
These 10 commandments are contained in 2 laws :Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 08:01 PM
Now I have two fresh question! :rofl: 1. What are the laws that currently apply and how do you determine if they do or do not?The rabbis who are studied in the law make the determination. But it's common sense, mostly. For example, no temple, ergo no sacrifice.


2. As Christians, we believe that the Tanakh is full of prophecies of the coming of the Messiah. I've often thought it would be great to study those from a Jewish perspective. Would you be interested in doing that on this board, maybe in the World Religions forum?

I would love to if we had the time. However at this point in time I am only allowed to post in this forum and election 2008.

RoadWarrior
Jan 30th 2008, 08:02 PM
... someone asked about Jewish beliefs and I shared them. ...

Fenris, my apologies for my having taken us off topic from your OP. :blush:

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 08:03 PM
Pardon falling away from your OP, but you were saying about following the law.... the only law that I think G_d wants us to follow, Jew and Christian alike is the 10 commandments.... I believe those will stand as witness against us on the Day of Judgment.... why do I say that... is it not true that the 10 Commandments are in the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven??No, it's more than just those 10. Although for a non-Jew those 10 are sufficient.



These 10 commandments are contained in 2 laws :Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
How do you show God that you love Him? By doing what He asks- following the Law.

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 08:03 PM
Fenris, my apologies for my having taken us off topic from your OP. :blush:
No, you didn't do anything wrong.

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 08:05 PM
My brother, time is getting so close... and the yearning of my heart is that you will see Him
I am busy studying the Psalms and am amazed at David's concept of Messiah...Little in Psalms is considered messianic by Jews, actually.
Mush of what you would consider messianic probably refers to David himself.

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 08:06 PM
This has somehow resulted in a rather vehement reaction from you. :hmm:"vehement" characterized by rancor or anger; violent: :hmm:

Fenris, have you ever heard of the Anti-Christ that will come??? A person masquerading as Messiah, that will crawl under the skins of the Jews people offering false hope of peace, and rebuild the temple?? :hmm:

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 08:09 PM
No, it's more than just those 10. Although for a non-Jew those 10 are sufficient.


How do you show God that you love Him? By doing what He asks- following the Law. By being obedient to Him... not only by following the law... in all He asks of you :)

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 08:12 PM
Little in Psalms is considered messianic by Jews, actually.
Mush of what you would consider messianic probably refers to David himself. Or the Seed of David :), but I am convinced that David because of his close relationship with G_d knew Messiah :)

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 08:14 PM
Fenris, have you ever heard of the Anti-Christ that will come??? A person masquerading as Messiah, that will crawl under the skins of the Jews people offering false hope of peace, and rebuild the temple?? :hmm:
Yeah, I have heard it. I don't worry about it too much.

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 08:16 PM
Yeah, I have heard it. I don't worry about it too much.Just as long as you know :pray:

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 08:20 PM
By being obedient to Him... not only by following the law... in all He asks of you :)
Well, even you guys are only doing the second half...

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 08:24 PM
Or the Seed of David :), but I am convinced that David because of his close relationship with G_d knew Messiah :)Well, you may believe as you wish of course.:)

Ta-An
Jan 30th 2008, 08:25 PM
Well, you may believe as you wish of course.:):) .

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 08:27 PM
Just as long as you know :pray:It's interesting to think that the guy who actually fulfills God's word will not be sent by God... but no, I don't buy it.

Jesusinmyheart
Jan 30th 2008, 09:48 PM
It's interesting to think that the guy who actually fulfills God's word will not be sent by God... but no, I don't buy it.

That depends on whether what he says is in line with the Word. At any rate we were warned in many places of scripture what to watch out for.... OT and NT alike.

It amazes me how Jews and Gentiles alike desire to operate only with half the root, and figure they are good to go. :rolleyes:


Shalom,
Tanja

Fenris
Jan 30th 2008, 10:41 PM
That depends on whether what he says is in line with the Word. At any rate we were warned in many places of scripture what to watch out for.... OT and NT alike.Yes, God does warn us to beware of false prophets...


It amazes me how Jews and Gentiles alike desire to operate only with half the root, and figure they are good to go. :rolleyes:Well, Jews don't think we're following only half. Obviously :)