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Matthehitmanhart
Jan 29th 2008, 10:21 PM
Throughout Romans 7:7-25 Paul says that he is in bondage to sin, unable to live according to God's law. It seems to me that this contradicts everything he says in the chapter previous, though, for there he says that those who have been baptized with Christ are no longer slaves to sin.

What do you guys think about this passage? It doesn't make sense to me that Paul, the mature Apostle, would be a slave to sin. How does that encourage me to know that no matter how hard I try, this side of the resurrection I will never have victory over sin?

Tanya~
Jan 29th 2008, 10:28 PM
In that passage, Paul is employing a Greek literary device called the gnomic present. This is a way of expressing a general truth. You will sometimes see a similar device used in English and other languages.

I agree with you, that this section of Romans 7 doesn't contradict the previous or the following passages. Paul is speaking of what it is like to be under the law. The context of chapter 7 is the law, the dominion of the law over the person who knows the law, and the bondage to sin that is brought about by the knowledge of the law.

bjones
Jan 29th 2008, 10:49 PM
In that passage, Paul is employing a Greek literary device called the gnomic present. This is a way of expressing a general truth. You will sometimes see a similar device used in English and other languages.

I agree with you, that this section of Romans 7 doesn't contradict the previous or the following passages. Paul is speaking of what it is like to be under the law. The context of chapter 7 is the law, the dominion of the law over the person who knows the law, and the bondage to sin that is brought about by the knowledge of the law.

Yeah, the hint to this is "I was alive without the law, then the law came..." When was Paul without the law? Only as a child, then he knew the law, and it killed him. Who will save him from this? Praise be to Christ Jesus.

However, in the spirit of double entendre, there is also a truth that the physical flesh enslaves us to sin. It works this way:

We are created from the same dust as the animals, we have the same kinds of instincts for self-preservation. So when we hunger we have a desire for food, etc. Now, no matter how much we cast off sin, we will still have physical hunger that we would satisfy the same way as animals if we didn't have such reminders as dietary laws, and saying grace before meals to remind us that we are more than animals.

The same with sex, if it were not marriage that reminds us that we are more than animals.

We would instinctively pass time serving our flesh if it were not for a Sabbath to remind us that we are more than animals.

Now imagine what happens when you are separated from this body of flesh and it is incapable of satisfying fleshly desires anymore. There's no problem, because the fleshly desires that trigger instincts are gone as well. But if you train your spirit to desire the flesh, then when you have no flesh you can't satisfy it at all. This is the basis of Dante's imagery of hell. So fasting is the practice of ensuring that the fleshly desires and instincts are separated from the spirit.

The law tells us that we are "unclean until the evening" meaning that we will have an instinctive nature that we must wrestle with until death.

I think Paul's statements might address this as well.

menJesus
Jan 29th 2008, 11:00 PM
I read that today. I think what Paul is saying is that, as long as he is in the flesh, then sin of one kind or another would happen in him, even though his spirit is with the Lord.

Its a continual battle for us all...he was a man...even though, a great one...

drew
Jan 29th 2008, 11:26 PM
In that passage, Paul is employing a Greek literary device called the gnomic present. This is a way of expressing a general truth. You will sometimes see a similar device used in English and other languages.

I agree with you, that this section of Romans 7 doesn't contradict the previous or the following passages. Paul is speaking of what it is like to be under the law. The context of chapter 7 is the law, the dominion of the law over the person who knows the law, and the bondage to sin that is brought about by the knowledge of the law.
I agree with this view, at least as I understand it. To shamelessly steal an expression from NT Wright. The text in question represents the specifically Christian analysis of the Jew living under Torah.

Tanya~
Jan 29th 2008, 11:49 PM
In this passage, Paul is speaking of being in bondage to a particular sin -- lust (covetousness). If the truth is that Paul continued throughout his life in bondage to this sin, then he both contradicted and condemned himself.

Paul isn't talking about the fact that we still have a sin nature and can and sometimes do commit sin. He is talking about being in bondage to sin in general, as well as a specific sin (covetousness), and having no power over it.

The whole theme of this chapter is on the law, and its impotence to save a person from sin. Paul had previously (in chapter 6) taught where the power to save a person from sin comes from, and exhorts his readers to follow that up by living like one who has been raised from the dead, like one who has been freed from a former slavemaster. He tells us that we "are not under law but under grace." Then in chapter 7, he speaks about what it is like to be under law, which culminates on a note of utter wretchedness, but ends with the hope of how one might be saved from such a state. Then the next chapter speaks of how the Holy Spirit is what makes the difference. The law inevitably leads to sin which results in death. But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus "has set me free from the law of sin and death."

Whereas in chapter 7 we read:

Rom 7:15-17
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
NKJV


In chapter 8 we find this:

Rom 8:2-6
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
NKJV

One is either in the flesh, struggling under the bondage of the law and sin, or one is in the Spirit, set free from the law and sin, and able to live in a way that is pleasing to God.

ProjectPeter
Jan 30th 2008, 01:34 PM
Throughout Romans 7:7-25 Paul says that he is in bondage to sin, unable to live according to God's law. It seems to me that this contradicts everything he says in the chapter previous, though, for there he says that those who have been baptized with Christ are no longer slaves to sin.

What do you guys think about this passage? It doesn't make sense to me that Paul, the mature Apostle, would be a slave to sin. How does that encourage me to know that no matter how hard I try, this side of the resurrection I will never have victory over sin?It is very important to understand a few things about what Paul is saying here. Many folks miss the context and I have said many times on this board... one of the most misused passages in the entire Scripture is this particular letter and chapter in the Bible. Ultimately it is the chapter folks go in order to excuse their living in sin because it breeds that whole... "hey, I'm just flesh and I can't help it" attitude. Afterall... even Paul says he did the same thing so who am I?

What did Paul actually say here?

Romans 7

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7 ¶What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Read this carefully because Paul is speaking of living under the Law. We know that Paul teaches contrary to that and that there is freedom in Christ. THis is just a continuation of what Paul's been talking about so far in Romans... the difference between the letter of the Law and living in the Spirit. Paul's point is not that we live in Romans 7. Those he's talking to (you who know the law) he is telling them... WHO WILL FREE ME FROM THIS? Jesus... move on to Chapter 8 and live by the Spirit.

Tanya~
Jan 30th 2008, 05:54 PM
I believe that to sum up this passage it is talking about living in a unsaved body. When we are saved we are given a new spirit but we still live in the same old sinful body. The spirit we have doesn't sin but the body we have does. So in the end of these verses Paul asks who will save him from his body. Well Christ will when the end comes. When the rapture occurs, those who have been saved get there new bodies and then salvation will finally be complete.

Hi Mikey,

This isn't the Biblical teaching. Your body was saved just as your spirit was saved, and for this reason we are to glorify God in our body.


1 Cor 6:18-20

18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

Buck shot
Jan 30th 2008, 06:03 PM
WHO WILL FREE ME FROM THIS? Jesus... move on to Chapter 8 and live by the Spirit.

Freedom does come! There is hope! I agree...:pp

Don't get too caught up on one part of the letter.

Mograce2U
Jan 30th 2008, 06:54 PM
Hi Mikey,

This isn't the Biblical teaching. Your body was saved just as your spirit was saved, and for this reason we are to glorify God in our body.


1 Cor 6:18-20
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. We are having a similar discussion in another thread. And I found where the soul is saved and the body redeemed in Heb 10:39 & Rom 8:23 (which must be considered in context). The difference seems to lie in what is our state now vs when we are resurrected.

Now, we have been cleansed and consecrated - sanctified for the Lord's use - body and spirit; so as to be a holy habitation for the Lord - His temple. This seems to be in line with 1 Cor 6 above. This is the glory we bring forth for the Lord now in this life, for which He has prepared us by forgiving our sin and cleansing us by His blood, and continues to keep us clean by washing us with the water of His word. In this way we remain a holy dwelling place for the Lord's Spirit during this earthly life.

But this corruptible body still must die - it will not live forever. Rather the seed of the word of God has been sown in us by His Spirit so that the new man who is formed in us CAN live forever in that day. It is the word of God sown in us that endures forever and will never die because it is incorruptible. That is the seed we need in us for our entrance into eternal life (at death), because the seed of Adam which makes for our flesh and blood bodies cannot enter in to the heavenly realm. We must instead be made after the image of Christ who is a quickening spirit - who Himself alone posseses eternal life. If this life is in us - in our inner man, we will be raised up like Him.

Or at least this seems to be what we are being told will be the case. When Stephen died he committed his spirit into the hands of the Lord - the only One who can keep our souls alive. It is not this body of flesh that receives new life other than in the sense that while we are still in it, our soul/ spirit has been quickened by the Spirit. Therefore we are now housing this life. But the new life we have has been given so that we survive the death of our body by the power of God that is now in us. And I think a new spiritual body is to be given us - the tabernacle that has been prepared for us in the heavenlies which "awaits" our arrival there where we will be clothed with it at that time. Howbeit the body that dies returns to dust from whence IT came.

It is hard to understand no doubt! The OT speaks of things always in a literal manner to give us the type. But the NT speaks in spiritual terms and it is hard to grasp in the here and now. Anyway if you look at all the passages together that speak about the resurrection as it pertains to both this life and the one to come, I think you will see that the real temple of God, for which this life here is still only a pattern - is the one we have secured in heaven, when this earthly temple is destroyed.

Pretty much like the stone temple in Jerusalem was (a type) ... when the new order came into being. Which are just my thoughts on this as I contemplate those things which God has prepared for us!

Partaker of Christ
Jan 30th 2008, 10:36 PM
It is very important to understand a few things about what Paul is saying here. Many folks miss the context and I have said many times on this board... one of the most misused passages in the entire Scripture is this particular letter and chapter in the Bible. Ultimately it is the chapter folks go in order to excuse their living in sin because it breeds that whole... "hey, I'm just flesh and I can't help it" attitude. Afterall... even Paul says he did the same thing so who am I?

What did Paul actually say here?

Romans 7

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7 ¶What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Read this carefully because Paul is speaking of living under the Law. We know that Paul teaches contrary to that and that there is freedom in Christ. THis is just a continuation of what Paul's been talking about so far in Romans... the difference between the letter of the Law and living in the Spirit. Paul's point is not that we live in Romans 7. Those he's talking to (you who know the law) he is telling them... WHO WILL FREE ME FROM THIS? Jesus... move on to Chapter 8 and live by the Spirit.

I think you forgot to highlight the other laws

23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There are four different 'laws' that Paul shows us in these verses.

1) The law of God
2) The law of my mind
3) The law of sin and death
4) The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ jesus

You wrote:
"Ultimately it is the chapter folks go in order to excuse their living in sin because it breeds that whole... "hey, I'm just flesh and I can't help it" attitude. After all... even Paul says he did the same thing so who am I?"

This is unfair. You are simply projecting your own fears and opinions upon other who a seeking the way of victory. How can someone come to the point of say 'O Wretched man that I am', because they are looking for an excuse?

Why do you often seem to fear a gospel of freedom and liberty?
If the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed.

Paul did not say 'What shall set me free', but 'WHO' shall set me free
The answer was not in something or in himself, but 'in Christ'

Paul was speaking about (those who know the law) how the law has dominion over you as long as you are alive.

He then shows how (just as husband and wife) we are 'divorced' from the law through our death in Christ.

He shows us that the law is Holy and good, but we are (in our flesh) weak. God had to deal with us by putting us to death in Christ.

As Christians (and only Christians can experience this) in our minds we want to please God, and keep His commandments, but we find that when we get up to do good, evil is present with me. The flesh is warring against the spirit.

Paul says, I see another law in my members.
We are not speaking here about the fruits of the flesh, but the flesh itself. It is not what I do, but what I am.

This 'other law', is like the law of gravity. You throw something up, and it will come down. This 'other law' is more powerful then my flesh. I can suppress for a while, but eventually it will wear me down.

The only way we can have victory over this law, is by a even greater law. The law of the Spirit of Life 'in Christ Jesus'

The law of the Spirit of Life does not give me strength (for I am dead), but 'IS' my strength. It is not 'I' but Christ in me.
This life is the resurrected life, but there is no resurrection until after there is death. We need to [Rom 6] 'recon' ourselves dead. Recon means work it out or do the maths. We were planted in Christ and crucified with Christ 2,000 years ago, by the quickening of the Spirit.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

"through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body"

Mortify the 'deeds' means the 'practice' 'office' 'work'. Cease from doing in your own strength.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 30th 2008, 10:38 PM
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Notice when Paul speaks of there being 'now no condemnation'. This walking after the Spirit, is when "with the mind I myself serve the law of God" Walking is to be occupied with. Our mind are now being occupied with the things of God.
Just as when before sin is first conceived in the heart, now walking after the Spirit (serving the law of God) is conceived in the heart. God works in us to will and to do His will.

ProjectPeter
Jan 31st 2008, 12:33 AM
I think you forgot to highlight the other laws

23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.No... I intentionally left those out because it is not speaking of the Law but a different law. Again... Paul was speaking to those that know the Law. When he gets into the law of sin... he is not speaking of the law that is holy.


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There are four different 'laws' that Paul shows us in these verses.

1) The law of God
2) The law of my mind
3) The law of sin and death
4) The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ jesus

You wrote:
"Ultimately it is the chapter folks go in order to excuse their living in sin because it breeds that whole... "hey, I'm just flesh and I can't help it" attitude. After all... even Paul says he did the same thing so who am I?"

This is unfair. You are simply projecting your own fears and opinions upon other who a seeking the way of victory. How can someone come to the point of say 'O Wretched man that I am', because they are looking for an excuse?It is not unfair at all because it is a fact. It has already even shown up in this very thread. Anyone that has been around a message board for more than a couple of months has seen this passage used as the "reason why we sin" and they do so as if this somehow justifies why man sins. It doesn't nor is that why Paul penned it. Paul's message here is the same as it is in the other letters... stop sinning as you ought. That comes out again clearly in chapter 8.




Why do you often seem to fear a gospel of freedom and liberty?
If the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed.What are you free of if you still continue in sin? I don't fear freedom at all. I fear for those that think they are free to sin though... I fear greatly for them.




Paul did not say 'What shall set me free', but 'WHO' shall set me free
The answer was not in something or in himself, but 'in Christ'Right... now that we've agreed here... Why did Jesus set you free? What did Jesus free you from?


Paul was speaking about (those who know the law) how the law has dominion over you as long as you are alive.

He then shows how (just as husband and wife) we are 'divorced' from the law through our death in Christ.

He shows us that the law is Holy and good, but we are (in our flesh) weak. God had to deal with us by putting us to death in Christ.

As Christians (and only Christians can experience this) in our minds we want to please God, and keep His commandments, but we find that when we get up to do good, evil is present with me. The flesh is warring against the spirit.That's where you make the mistake. The person that Paul is speaking of who wants to please God and keep His law... the person that still has that evil present in them... that is the person that is NOT free in Christ. That is the person that is still under the Law.


Paul says, I see another law in my members.
We are not speaking here about the fruits of the flesh, but the flesh itself. It is not what I do, but what I am.

This 'other law', is like the law of gravity. You throw something up, and it will come down. This 'other law' is more powerful then my flesh. I can suppress for a while, but eventually it will wear me down.

The only way we can have victory over this law, is by a even greater law. The law of the Spirit of Life 'in Christ Jesus'

The law of the Spirit of Life does not give me strength (for I am dead), but 'IS' my strength. It is not 'I' but Christ in me.
This life is the resurrected life, but there is no resurrection until after there is death. We need to [Rom 6] 'recon' ourselves dead. Recon means work it out or do the maths. We were planted in Christ and crucified with Christ 2,000 years ago, by the quickening of the Spirit.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.



"through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body"

Mortify the 'deeds' means the 'practice' 'office' 'work'. Cease from doing in your own strength.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

This is the man in Romans 7. THat was Paul's same point using himself as an example.


9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
12 ¶So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

You are not obligated to live according to the flesh. If you live according to the flesh (how the Romans 7 guy lives) then you must die (the Romans 8 guy). It is by the Spirit that we put to death the DEEDS of the body. What deeds is Paul speaking of when he speaks of deeds of the flesh? If we are continuing in sin... we aren't free from anything and we still have to die. The law, while holy and good, doesn't give us life... only death.

SDG
Jan 31st 2008, 02:34 AM
Who can serve the law of God with the mind? Spiritually dead? Spiritually alive? Both? Neither?

Again, who can thank God through Jesus Christ for a promise of deliverance from this body of death?

God's blessings,
Josh

Partaker of Christ
Jan 31st 2008, 02:48 PM
No... I intentionally left those out because it is not speaking of the Law but a different law. Again... Paul was speaking to those that know the Law. When he gets into the law of sin... he is not speaking of the law that is holy.

It is not unfair at all because it is a fact. It has already even shown up in this very thread. Anyone that has been around a message board for more than a couple of months has seen this passage used as the "reason why we sin" and they do so as if this somehow justifies why man sins. It doesn't nor is that why Paul penned it. Paul's message here is the same as it is in the other letters... stop sinning as you ought. That comes out again clearly in chapter 8.

What are you free of if you still continue in sin? I don't fear freedom at all. I fear for those that think they are free to sin though... I fear greatly for them.

Right... now that we've agreed here... Why did Jesus set you free? What did Jesus free you from?

That's where you make the mistake. The person that Paul is speaking of who wants to please God and keep His law... the person that still has that evil present in them... that is the person that is NOT free in Christ. That is the person that is still under the Law.



Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

This is the man in Romans 7. THat was Paul's same point using himself as an example.


9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
12 ¶So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

You are not obligated to live according to the flesh. If you live according to the flesh (how the Romans 7 guy lives) then you must die (the Romans 8 guy). It is by the Spirit that we put to death the DEEDS of the body. What deeds is Paul speaking of when he speaks of deeds of the flesh? If we are continuing in sin... we aren't free from anything and we still have to die. The law, while holy and good, doesn't give us life... only death.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Who is it that is dead?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

The Fact is, that if we belong to Christ, then we ARE dead and ARE freed from sin.

How can we use our liberty for an occasion to the flesh, If we don't yet have liberty?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

ProjectPeter
Jan 31st 2008, 03:01 PM
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Who is it that is dead?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

The Fact is, that if we belong to Christ, then we ARE dead and ARE freed from sin.

How can we use our liberty for an occasion to the flesh, If we don't yet have liberty?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
And the person in Romans 7... had not been freed from sin but was still in bondage to it. Read it closely... it is clear.