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minnesotaice
Jan 30th 2008, 11:37 AM
Did anyone see this? I was not surprised. If he is found guilty of using church funds to fund private businesses, what will happen to him? What about him saying that God wants us to be wealthy as possible? The story really disturbed me.

ProjectPeter
Jan 30th 2008, 12:50 PM
I didn't see it... was anything revealed in the interview?

minnesotaice
Jan 30th 2008, 01:36 PM
There were former emloyees of his ministry interviewed. They said that he uses the church jet for family vacations and is involved in Not for Profit businesses with church funds (which are not taxable). I hope the investigation uncovers the truth.

ProjectPeter
Jan 30th 2008, 01:40 PM
They will if they can find it and that isn't always as easy as it seems. Time will tell though.

jeffreys
Jan 30th 2008, 03:16 PM
I didn't see it... was anything revealed in the interview?
No, nothing new was revealed.

It's what we already knew: Kenneth Copeland preaches the Health & Wealth Gospel for personal financial gain.

He is a mind-numbingly rich (financially) showman.

jeffreys
Jan 30th 2008, 03:19 PM
There were former emloyees of his ministry interviewed. They said that he uses the church jet for family vacations and is involved in Not for Profit businesses with church funds (which are not taxable). I hope the investigation uncovers the truth.

Yeah - but that's just one of his 4 jets. And they're at his personal airport, not too far from his 18,000 square foot lakeside mansion.

Kenneth Copeland does not walk as Jesus walked. He does not preach what Jesus preached. He does not live as Jesus lived.


On the other hand, what happens to him legally is of little consequence to me, so I don't need to waste a lot of time on it.

ProjectPeter
Jan 30th 2008, 03:57 PM
As a Pastor... it will have consequence. It always does. Might not be evident right now... it will later. Mind you... I believe this is going to happen and it all ultimately points to the time we are in today and there ya go. But it's still important because it is the very type thing that Paul would say "the Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you." Folks like this will pay a horrible price... unfortunately it will cost many folk their soul in the process. Tis a sad thing to watch.

militarywife
Jan 30th 2008, 07:17 PM
I saw a small segment on the news last night but nothing of real substance. I will say it peaked my curiousity for sure. I this is a huge "make or break" in the world of tv evangelism. Truthfully, I dont know what to think without knowing more.

Clifton
Jan 30th 2008, 07:43 PM
Did anyone see this? I was not surprised. If he is found guilty of using church funds to fund private businesses, what will happen to him? What about him saying that God wants us to be wealthy as possible? The story really disturbed me.

I would not have watched it - if I want to hear twists and lies, I'll watch the candidates trying to run for president:D

Early last decade, because of my parents, I attended a church that was pastored by a pastor that was "ordained" by Copeland himself - "Word Of Faith", or "Faith Movement" I think they called it. They termed themselves as a FULL GOSPEL CHURCH;

I wrote down verses in services and when I got home, I loaded up Online Bible Software so I could "Study the Word" - Checked the contexts and Hebrew and Greek, and saw how they got things so messed up. Grammar changes and everything. I tried to overlook it as perhaps occasional errors, but it did not stop. The last time I ATTEMPTED to go to that Church (for the sake of a woman there), I felt crippled and fell to floor before I could walk out the door, and was very hurt about what I realize they were doing to the scriptures.

Later, I discovered the starter of this movement was not Kenneth Hagin, as some are led to believe, but Essek W. Kenyon. Hagin had borrowed (read: stole) much of the writings out of Kenyon's Books, plagiarizing them with very little changes. A federal complaint was lodged against Hagin on this, but I do not know whatever became of it. I still got comparisons on the writings on those books of Kenyon and Hagin on my computer.

But, I believe in the power of healing and to pray for others that are in such needs. My great niece, 5 years old, has been very sick the past few days and is now in the hospital, so AM praying for healing for her.:pray:

Athanasius
Jan 30th 2008, 08:40 PM
I thought he was already found guilting and serving ten years. . .
Where have I been?!

jeffreys
Jan 31st 2008, 08:14 PM
I thought he was already found guilting and serving ten years. . .
Where have I been?!

I don't think you're thinking of Kenneth Copeland.

Ken Ham, perhaps?

Athanasius
Jan 31st 2008, 08:17 PM
I don't think you're thinking of Kenneth Copeland.

Ken Ham, perhaps?

What? Somethings going on with Ken Ham?

I know who I may be thinking of, but I can't remember his name and I'm too lazy to Google him. He defended creationism and did an abhorrent job of it.

Matthew 12:21
Jan 31st 2008, 08:29 PM
What? Somethings going on with Ken Ham?

I know who I may be thinking of, but I can't remember his name and I'm too lazy to Google him. He defended creationism and did an abhorrent job of it.

Kent Hovind is probably who you're thinking of. He was convicted of tax fraud I believe. He's one of the more well known "creationist" proponets, and a good bit of what he said in his lectures and presentations was false.

jeffreys
Jan 31st 2008, 08:32 PM
Kent Hovind is probably who you're thinking of. I totally agree with you in that case.
Oh yeah - that's right.

Ken this, Ken that.

Sorry for the confusion! :)

Athanasius
Jan 31st 2008, 08:48 PM
Kent Hovind is probably who you're thinking of. He was convicted of tax fraud I believe. He's one of the more well known "creationist" proponets, and a good bit of what he said in his lectures and presentations was false.

Ah yes! That's the person I'm thinking of.
Yeah, his defense of Creationism was. . . I don't think I can say those two words :P

always
Jan 31st 2008, 09:24 PM
Father God, I lift the ministers in the Body of Christ up to you in prayer, Lord I cast no stones, but with my mouth pray that if there is a problem with their walk, that you restore them, in their heart put repentence,

Lord I pray for the body to be that example of loving forgiveness for the world to see, and be an example of not cruelty but of mercy.

Father I pray that this man of God and any other attacked by this method be vindicated if innocent.

This in your precious name I pray, and bless them the more, prosper them the more, pour out a blessing they won't be able to recieve, prepare a table before them in the prescence of their enemies, in Jesus' Name Amen.

Clifton
Jan 31st 2008, 11:04 PM
...But, I believe in the power of healing and to pray for others that are in such needs. My great niece, 5 years old, has been very sick the past few days and is now in the hospital, so AM praying for healing for her.:pray:


I am happy to report that the great niece is back home from the hospital and getting better better (apparently it was a stomach flu, and there were about a dozen children in the hospital for it). PRAISE THE LORD!:pray:

And I use to add, I sent no money to Copeland - Let Couric report that:D

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 01:42 PM
This is why I just do not buy into the whole evangelism thing. Is there any news on the investigation concerning Meyer's and her $20,000 toilet seat?

menJesus
Feb 4th 2008, 02:21 PM
Mmmm...the "commode" that was purchased was not a toilet seat.

I am sure that there is plenty more about it all - do a Google search and see.

And do a search on fine furniture - "commode" - for a definition, so you can be aware of that of which you speak.

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 02:23 PM
Mmmm...the "commode" that was purchased was not a toilet seat.

I am sure that there is plenty more about it all - do a Google search and see.

And do a search on fine furniture - "commode" - for a definition, so you can be aware of that of which you speak.

I am aware of what it is. It was more or less a tongue in cheek comment. No need to be haughty.

menJesus
Feb 4th 2008, 02:31 PM
No haughtiness intended. I believe it is good of us to go do our homework before we say things about other people, especially if they are derogatory or derisive in nature.

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 02:32 PM
No haughtiness intended. I believe it is good of us to go do our homework before we say things about other people, especially if they are derogatory or derisive in nature.

It isn't derogatory when it is true, she has misused funds.

menJesus
Feb 4th 2008, 02:40 PM
It isn't derogatory when it is true, she has misused funds.

I am sure that the church board is aware and approves of the spending she does, with church funds.

And she is a millionaire in her own right, through the sales of her books.

According to her financial statement, upwards of 80% (?) of the church income is given to the needy, in a wide variety of ways.

If you have proof, please post it. I really would like to see it. Although I would hate to find out she is dishonest in her stewardship...

But since the OT is not about Joyce Meyer, maybe you should begin a new thread.

Thanks.

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 02:47 PM
There is already a huge thread about this that was locked. If you are interested in learning more about the topic I suggest you utilize the search feature and find it. ;)

menJesus
Feb 4th 2008, 03:00 PM
I will go and look for it. Thanks for the info! I just hope that it is factual and not full of heresy and innuendoes... Thanks! :)

diffangle
Feb 4th 2008, 03:16 PM
I just found this about her "commode"....

http://www.philcooke.com/Joyce_Meyer_toilet

According to him the commode she has is an antique piece that was donated to her and is not a toilet.

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 03:20 PM
I just found this about her "commode"....

http://www.philcooke.com/Joyce_Meyer_toilet

According to him the commode she has is an antique piece that was donated to her and is not a toilet.

The commode isn't the big issue with Meyers and her brethren.

VerticalReality
Feb 4th 2008, 03:21 PM
The commode isn't the big issue with Meyers and her brethren.

What is the big issue?

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 03:24 PM
What is the big issue?

Read the other thread.

diffangle
Feb 4th 2008, 03:40 PM
The commode isn't the big issue with Meyers and her brethren.
I agree. The prosperity gospel is not The Gospel. When I first heard about the commode thing, I thought it was a toilet that she bought which imo would be grossly obvious of her excesses... but if this guys info is accurate, then it's more understandable her having a $23,000 "commode". Of course it would be nice to see it sold and donate that money to a worthy cause, but hey I can also understand not giving away a gift too. :dunno:

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 03:42 PM
I agree. The prosperity gospel is not The Gospel. When I first heard about the commode thing, I thought it was a toilet that she bought which imo would be grossly obvious of her excesses... but if this guys info is accurate, then it's more understandable her having a $23,000 "commode". Of course it would be nice to see it sold and donate that money to a worthy cause, but hey I can also understand not giving away a gift too. :dunno:

Just think of how many people that could feed.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 04:43 PM
I just found this about her "commode"....

http://www.philcooke.com/Joyce_Meyer_toilet

According to him the commode she has is an antique piece that was donated to her and is not a toilet.

Hence why I passionately said in that thread that until the facts are in, we should just keep quiet. It is wrong to judge when we don't know all the necessary facts.

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 04:55 PM
Hence why I passionately said in that thread that until the facts are in, we should just keep quiet. It is wrong to judge when we don't know all the necessary facts.

Just playing advocate, who is this man that we must proclaim what he says to be undeniable truth?

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 05:01 PM
Just playing advocate, who is this man that we must proclaim what he says to be undeniable truth?

Not saying that either. Just saying we don't know who to believe yet. Therefore, we shouldn't make any judgments until we do know the truth.

diffangle
Feb 4th 2008, 05:04 PM
Hence why I passionately said in that thread that until the facts are in, we should just keep quiet. It is wrong to judge when we don't know all the necessary facts.
As I stated in the other thread, "if that's the case it would be a bad witness to the world". ;) I realize you don't have a problem with the prosperity gospel preachers living extravagantly(and that's fine for you brother:)), but personally, I do.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 05:19 PM
As I stated in the other thread, "if that's the case it would be a bad witness to the world". ;) I realize you don't have a problem with the prosperity gospel preachers living extravagantly(and that's fine for you brother:)), but personally, I do.

What I have a problem with is how we define extravagant and putting OUR definition of it on another believer. And I also have a problem with us deciding how another should live. That, to me, is not something the Lord has for us when it comes to such things. We can speak about not living in sin where sin is clearly defined. But extravagant living is up for some mode of interpretation. Therein lies the rub. As I have said before, to the Mossai, any house bigger than 10 feet in diameter and made of something more than straw is extravagant.

diffangle
Feb 4th 2008, 05:53 PM
What I have a problem with is how we define extravagant and putting OUR definition of it on another believer. And I also have a problem with us deciding how another should live. That, to me, is not something the Lord has for us when it comes to such things. We can speak about not living in sin where sin is clearly defined. But extravagant living is up for some mode of interpretation. Therein lies the rub. As I have said before, to the Mossai, any house bigger than 10 feet in diameter and made of something more than straw is extravagant.
If that's your arguement then I guess there's no such thing as extravagant living. :rolleyes: :P

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 06:33 PM
Brother Mark - We are not talking about what is extravagant to any other culture or country except ours. I :rolleyes: when I see people use the argument that in Africa I would be considered wealthy. That is comparing apples to oranges.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 06:40 PM
If that's your arguement then I guess there's no such thing as extravagant living. :rolleyes: :P

That's why I leave it to the Lord to decide. Does he define it in scripture? The man in proverbs says "Don't let me be so rich I forget about you nor so poor that I steal". Where did God define too rich? or too extravagant? Did he condemn or admonish Solomon for his extravagance? Not that I can find. Nor did he do so with Job or Abraham or David or any other man in scripture. With each of them he gave them even more. Yet, we balance that with the rest of scripture knowing that not all will be blessed as these men were financially.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 06:41 PM
Brother Mark - We are not talking about what is extravagant to any other culture or country except ours. I :rolleyes: when I see people use the argument that in Africa I would be considered wealthy. That is comparing apples to oranges.

Not really. We are taking our values, from our culture we grew up in and applying them to someone else that lives in a totally different culture even if it is the same country. Just as Africa can't define extravagance for another person, nor can we.

Shoot, go to some of the trailer parks in Appalachia in the US and ask them if a 2000sf house is extravagant and you'll get a resounding yes.

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 07:41 PM
Not really. We are taking our values, from our culture we grew up in and applying them to someone else that lives in a totally different culture even if it is the same country. Just as Africa can't define extravagance for another person, nor can we.

Shoot, go to some of the trailer parks in Appalachia in the US and ask them if a 2000sf house is extravagant and you'll get a resounding yes.

Not entirely true. Anyone with common sense can look at the statistics for the entire country and get a sense of what it means to be poor, middle class or rich. We are not talking about the difference of a few thousand dollars, but millions of dollars.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 07:48 PM
Not entirely true. Anyone with common sense can look at the statistics for the entire country and get a sense of what it means to be poor, middle class or rich. We are not talking about the difference of a few thousand dollars, but millions of dollars.

True enough. But the homeless guy down the road might thing the poor man living in a 1000sf house is extravagantly wealthy. The point is, we judge folks with our own ideas of what extravagant is and we are not the judge of those things.

If one is living in fornication, God has already judged that. We know it is wrong. But when it comes to giving to the poor, God's standard may be as the rich young ruler found out, all of it. Then any who keeps even a house for himself is in the wrong. Yet, he didn't tell everyone to give that way practically, though many of his children are willing to. So, it is between God and Joyce what she does with her money. We do not know all her giving patterns, or what she keeps, or what was given to her, or why she has it. Those are things that God does know and we do not.

Where scripture is clear, i.e. fornication, adultery, etc. we say those things are wrong. We can say greed is wrong. But how do we know Joyce is greedy? Can we see her heart? Is God blessing her far beyond her giving as he did Job? Is it possible that someone gave her the commode with the condition that it be displayed in the foyer? If what this guy has said is true, then she has been slandered and judged wrongly. For this reason James penned the following verses...

James 4:11-12

11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
NASU

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 07:55 PM
Well we will have to agree to disagree because I think it is quite clear what is excessive and extravagant and what is not.

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 07:56 PM
Well we will have to agree to disagree because I think it is quite clear what is excessive and extravagant and what is not.

OK. Show me the scripture that defines it. ;) Was Solomon sinful in his extravagance? Will heaven be extravagant?

Show me the scripture that says it wrong and that defines it and I'll agree with you on those accounts. ;)

I<3Jesus
Feb 4th 2008, 07:58 PM
Ah, see I do not have to because I just said we will never agree. I'm sure Satan can spout scripture like it is nobodies business, but that does not make him right ;)

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2008, 08:03 PM
Ah, see I do not have to because I just said we will never agree. I'm sure Satan can spout scripture like it is nobodies business, but that does not make him right ;)

Indeed he can! He also ignores it better than most. One thing we can both agree on, the world doesn't have to live by our standards. Joyce should live in holy fear knowing that one day she will be judged by a living God. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of a living God. We should all fear/respect him and live according to what he says.

menJesus
Feb 4th 2008, 11:32 PM
I agree with you 110%. There are three sides to every story - your side, my side, and the truth.

Let ALL the facts be laid out before anyone picks up the first stone.

Even so, God is her judge.

diffangle
Feb 5th 2008, 04:23 AM
Even so, God is her judge.
Very true, but even so, we are still told to judge within the body(1 Cor 5:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=12&version=kjv#12)).

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 04:25 AM
Very true, but even so, we are still told to judge within the body(1 Cor 5:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=12&version=kjv#12)).

But we must judge rightly. When discipline is necessary, we do it. But we must have scripture to define that. Unfortunately, extravagance doesn't seem to be one of the sins that demands church discipline/judgment.

VerticalReality
Feb 5th 2008, 04:35 AM
I've got to agree with BrotherMark here . . .

Why do we try to apply our imperfect judgment and define for ourselves what is sin when God has not? If you say that Meyers or anyone is living in sin because they are wealthy and living extravagently, then you must also make the very unbiblical claim that David, Solomon, Abraham, Job and others were living in sin for the same thing. However, in doing this you are speaking where God has not, and in fact, you have accused a clear saint spoken of in the Scriptures as living in sin. David was rich and he lived extravagently in the eyes of many others. Solomon was the same along with others. Why is their lifestyles not viewed as sin? In fact, the opposite is true. If we sit here and place judgment upon another and accuse them of sin when they have not sinned . . . it is our own sin that needs to be judged.

Therefore, if anyone in this thread sees proof of sin then they need to point it out with clear Scripture showing why it is sin. If you can't do that it is better that we all keep our mouths completely shut and leave the judging to God. Otherwise you are inviting God's judgment on your own life.

I<3Jesus
Feb 5th 2008, 04:56 AM
Therefore, if anyone in this thread sees proof of sin then they need to point it out with clear Scripture showing why it is sin. If you can't do that it is better that we all keep our mouths completely shut and leave the judging to God. Otherwise you are inviting God's judgment on your own life.

I'm sure there is a nicer way you could have phrased that. :rolleyes:

VerticalReality
Feb 5th 2008, 05:02 AM
I'm sure there is a nicer way you could have phrased that. :rolleyes:

What's it have to do with nice? It has to do with truth. If you don't know something by the Word of God to be sin then you shouldn't judge others for it. What's there to be "nice" about? It's just a very simple and Christ-like thing to do. I don't view the judging of others' character based upon unfounded and unbiblical assumption to be "nice", so it needs to be called out and corrected. There's no need to beat around the bush about it and sugarcoat anything. Just call it out and get it fixed. It's what I appreciate from others as far as I'm concerned as well. If folks see something that I'm doing that needs corrected I want them to let me know where I'm in error and the Scripture to verify it. That's keeping our brothers and sisters from going down a slippery slope that leads to nothing but hardship.

diffangle
Feb 5th 2008, 05:29 AM
But we must judge rightly. When discipline is necessary, we do it. But we must have scripture to define that. Unfortunately, extravagance doesn't seem to be one of the sins that demands church discipline/judgment.


I've got to agree with BrotherMark here . . .

Why do we try to apply our imperfect judgment and define for ourselves what is sin when God has not? If you say that Meyers or anyone is living in sin because they are wealthy and living extravagently, then you must also make the very unbiblical claim that David, Solomon, Abraham, Job and others were living in sin for the same thing. However, in doing this you are speaking where God has not, and in fact, you have accused a clear saint spoken of in the Scriptures as living in sin. David was rich and he lived extravagently in the eyes of many others. Solomon was the same along with others. Why is their lifestyles not viewed as sin? In fact, the opposite is true. If we sit here and place judgment upon another and accuse them of sin when they have not sinned . . . it is our own sin that needs to be judged.

Therefore, if anyone in this thread sees proof of sin then they need to point it out with clear Scripture showing why it is sin. If you can't do that it is better that we all keep our mouths completely shut and leave the judging to God. Otherwise you are inviting God's judgment on your own life.
Abraham and Job lived in tents(hardly extravagant) and as I said in the other JM thread...



Did YHWH give him(Solomon) the wealth that built high places for pagan gods? I have a hard time believing YHWH ordained his money paying for harems/lust. Just b/c Solomon spent extravagantly doesn't make it all YHWH ordained. Also try not to forget that YHWH caused his Kingdom to collapse b/c of the sins of Solomon.

Mat 13:22 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=13&v=22&version=KJV#22)
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mat 19:24 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=19&v=24&version=KJV#24)
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mar 10:23 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mar&c=10&v=23&version=KJV#23)
And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Mat 6:24 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=24&version=KJV#24)No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 09:05 AM
Abraham and Job lived in tents(hardly extravagant) and as I said in the other JM thread...

But neither did Solomon nor David. We know spending money for harlots, idolatry, etc. is wrong. Spending money on other things is not. And just so we know, look at where the wealth of Solomon came from.

2 Chron 1:11-12

11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:

12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.
KJV



Mat 13:22 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=13&v=22&version=KJV#22)
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mat 19:24 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=19&v=24&version=KJV#24)
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mar 10:23 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mar&c=10&v=23&version=KJV#23)
And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Mat 6:24 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=24&version=KJV#24)No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.No one is saying worship mammon. Here's a few verses to balance those verses.

Prov 13:22
22 A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children,
And the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous.
NASB

Prov 15:6
6 Much wealth is in the house of the righteous,
But trouble is in the income of the wicked.
NASB

Prov 22:4
4 The reward of humility and the fear of the Lord
Are riches, honor and life.
NASB

Prov 24:4
4 And by knowledge the rooms are filled
With all precious and pleasant riches.
NASB


Money is not bad. Love of money is. That's why God had no problem giving wealth to Solomon, David, Job, Abraham, Barnabas, etc.

Here's a new testament verse.

1 Tim 6:17-18

17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
NASB

Money is sometimes a gift given by God to be enjoyed. It should also be shared with the poor.

1 Tim 6:18-19
18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
NASB

Show me a verse that tells Solomon he was wrong in his extravagance! Define extravagance scripturally. The problem is, it's not defined the way we want it to be. People say "She's sinning". Show me where God says that...

The closest one can come is "Let your moderation in all things be known". IF the guy is being truthful about the commode, then that is certainly moderate as it was a gift and an antique.

But there are many scriptures concerning how a man is not to judge how another lives unto the Lord. When sin is sin, let's call it that. Where scripture is silent, it is best for us to be as well.

Lyndie
Feb 5th 2008, 11:24 AM
Not to bring up JM again, :rolleyes:, but here's something I was thinking about. Some complain about what she has, but how many of those same people are giving away 80% of what they bring in? Most of us wouldn't survive if we did that. Unfortunatley, some still don't think that's enough, that we should all live in huts. We best be selling our computers then, and giving the proceeds to the poor, since in all reality, they aren't a neccesity.

Not sure if I've said it here before, but-- if someone mentions prosperity, and the first thing you think of is money and get mad, you may be the one with the issue and not the speaker.

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 02:45 PM
But neither did Solomon nor David. We know spending money for harlots, idolatry, etc. is wrong. Spending money on other things is not. And just so we know, look at where the wealth of Solomon came from.

2 Chron 1:11-12

11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:

12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.
KJV

No one is saying worship mammon. Here's a few verses to balance those verses.

Prov 13:22
22 A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children,
And the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous.
NASB

Prov 15:6
6 Much wealth is in the house of the righteous,
But trouble is in the income of the wicked.
NASB

Prov 22:4
4 The reward of humility and the fear of the Lord
Are riches, honor and life.
NASB

Prov 24:4
4 And by knowledge the rooms are filled
With all precious and pleasant riches.
NASB


Money is not bad. Love of money is. That's why God had no problem giving wealth to Solomon, David, Job, Abraham, Barnabas, etc.

Here's a new testament verse.

1 Tim 6:17-18

17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
NASB

Money is sometimes a gift given by God to be enjoyed. It should also be shared with the poor.

1 Tim 6:18-19
18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
NASB

Show me a verse that tells Solomon he was wrong in his extravagance! Define extravagance scripturally. The problem is, it's not defined the way we want it to be. People say "She's sinning". Show me where God says that...

The closest one can come is "Let your moderation in all things be known". IF the guy is being truthful about the commode, then that is certainly moderate as it was a gift and an antique.

But there are many scriptures concerning how a man is not to judge how another lives unto the Lord. When sin is sin, let's call it that. Where scripture is silent, it is best for us to be as well.Well now keep in mind that God chides Israel as a whole for this in several of the Prophets. He made them wealthy and the result was that they began to put their faith in their own wealth and wisdom as if it was them that was responsible for their wealth and wisdom. Solomon likely fits that mold as well as we know from Scripture.

So while there is nothing wrong with God given wealth... the point of many of the New Testament passages is that it is very, very, easy to take your eyes off the prize in eternity and focus on the prize in Chase Manhattan.

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 02:47 PM
Not to bring up JM again, :rolleyes:, but here's something I was thinking about. Some complain about what she has, but how many of those same people are giving away 80% of what they bring in? Most of us wouldn't survive if we did that. Unfortunatley, some still don't think that's enough, that we should all live in huts. We best be selling our computers then, and giving the proceeds to the poor, since in all reality, they aren't a neccesity.

Not sure if I've said it here before, but-- if someone mentions prosperity, and the first thing you think of is money and get mad, you may be the one with the issue and not the speaker.
But then when does this become an excuse? Would you sell your house, car, computer, and everything else for the most part? Most folks, in all honesty, start to do a lot of hemming and hawing when faced with that or even if they seriously ponder it.

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 02:50 PM
Not to bring up JM again, :rolleyes:, but here's something I was thinking about. Some complain about what she has, but how many of those same people are giving away 80% of what they bring in? Most of us wouldn't survive if we did that. Unfortunatley, some still don't think that's enough, that we should all live in huts. We best be selling our computers then, and giving the proceeds to the poor, since in all reality, they aren't a neccesity.

Not sure if I've said it here before, but-- if someone mentions prosperity, and the first thing you think of is money and get mad, you may be the one with the issue and not the speaker.
And in truth too... let me add this. It isn't that great a feat to boast on living on 20 percent of millions of dollars. When one has a huge home that hey don't have to pay for because the "ministry" owns the home... they don't have a house payment, insurance payment, maintenance etc. When the ministry pays for clothes, cars, etc... to try and compare them to the average Joe that sits in the pew... that's really not a fair comparison at all. So that a person lives on 20 percent of millions with little to no bills... that honestly ain't that big a deal.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 03:11 PM
Well now keep in mind that God chides Israel as a whole for this in several of the Prophets. He made them wealthy and the result was that they began to put their faith in their own wealth and wisdom as if it was them that was responsible for their wealth and wisdom. Solomon likely fits that mold as well as we know from Scripture.

So while there is nothing wrong with God given wealth... the point of many of the New Testament passages is that it is very, very, easy to take your eyes off the prize in eternity and focus on the prize in Chase Manhattan.

I have no problem with that PP. God knows the heart and when he says it, it's true. But how can we look into someone's heart and know? We can't! so we have to judge the actions. Where God says actions are wrong, so can we. But where he is silent on actions, we need to be as well. That's the whole point I am making.

We both know that JM could very well be in sin. But do we KNOW that she is? That's where the problem lies. We can't know on some things because God doesn't spell it out for us in scripture. So when we speculate, we move into areas called "slander, jealousy, judging, etc." and these are all things God told us to avoid.

Having said all that, giving to the poor and being considerate of the poor is very high on God's list of things to do.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 03:15 PM
But then when does this become an excuse? Would you sell your house, car, computer, and everything else for the most part? Most folks, in all honesty, start to do a lot of hemming and hawing when faced with that or even if they seriously ponder it.

No doubt! And this is the real test. We know people like David, Abraham, and Job would because on some level, they did! When the enemy comes and says fall down and worship me and I will give you everything we can say "My Father owns the cattle on a thousands hills and he has given it to me." When the enemy says fall down and worship me or I will take it away we can say "It is not mine, for it is his and I own nothing." With these attitudes, we can follow Jesus into the kingdom. If we hold anything with a closed hand, it is a sin to us for then we move into covetousness. But if we hold it with an open hand, then we avoid much trouble.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 03:17 PM
And in truth too... let me add this. It isn't that great a feat to boast on living on 20 percent of millions of dollars. When one has a huge home that hey don't have to pay for because the "ministry" owns the home... they don't have a house payment, insurance payment, maintenance etc. When the ministry pays for clothes, cars, etc... to try and compare them to the average Joe that sits in the pew... that's really not a fair comparison at all. So that a person lives on 20 percent of millions with little to no bills... that honestly ain't that big a deal.

Having owned businesses in the past, a man making 20k a year in business for himself is doing much better than a man making 20k at a job. There's just no comparison because of all the tax writeoffs you mention. The richer we are, the easier it is to give. That's one reason God said the widow gave more than anyone else. Shoot, if Bill Gates gave 99% of his wealth away, he would still be living in the top 10% of Americans. Your statements are true and worthy of being repeated. It's not that big a deal when a rich man gives 20% or even more to ministry. But it is a big deal to the person he gives it to.

VerticalReality
Feb 5th 2008, 03:45 PM
I have no problem with what you've said, PP. Scripture is very clear that we cannot serve both God and mammon. If they are driven by money and that is what they serve then they are indeed in error. However, I don't see how, at least from what we've seen here, that we can know this for sure.

minnesotaice
Feb 5th 2008, 04:12 PM
True enough. But the homeless guy down the road might thing the poor man living in a 1000sf house is extravagantly wealthy. The point is, we judge folks with our own ideas of what extravagant is and we are not the judge of those things.

If one is living in fornication, God has already judged that. We know it is wrong. But when it comes to giving to the poor, God's standard may be as the rich young ruler found out, all of it. Then any who keeps even a house for himself is in the wrong. Yet, he didn't tell everyone to give that way practically, though many of his children are willing to. So, it is between God and Joyce what she does with her money. We do not know all her giving patterns, or what she keeps, or what was given to her, or why she has it. Those are things that God does know and we do not.

Where scripture is clear, i.e. fornication, adultery, etc. we say those things are wrong. We can say greed is wrong. But how do we know Joyce is greedy? Can we see her heart? Is God blessing her far beyond her giving as he did Job? Is it possible that someone gave her the commode with the condition that it be displayed in the foyer? If what this guy has said is true, then she has been slandered and judged wrongly. For this reason James penned the following verses...

James 4:11-12

11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
NASU


You are totally correct in God judging what people spend their money on based on not knowing the total outcome. I think in getting back to the Original Post, is that a possible law has been broken which allows Non Profit Organizations to be exempt from paying taxes if everything is spent on the ministry. The question on the table which is being investigated is whether or not Copeland has consistently used ministry funds for personal vacations.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 04:26 PM
You are totally correct in God judging what people spend their money on based on not knowing the total outcome. I think in getting back to the Original Post, is that a possible law has been broken which allows Non Profit Organizations to be exempt from paying taxes if everything is spent on the ministry. The question on the table which is being investigated is whether or not Copeland has consistently used ministry funds for personal vacations.

If he has broken the law, he should certainly pay the consequences!

always
Feb 5th 2008, 04:29 PM
http://t2.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1503826682077&id=394cff95fd540bd61311ccc0a7b2ff89SOAPBOX


One of my major pet peeves is the body of Christ, GOSSIPING, TALEBEARING, FALSE WITNESSING about another brother or sister in the body being attacked by the enemy in whatever form.

who cares? how much a toilet cost, or how many vacations someone takes.

Ministry does not stop, it is a 24 hour job, it does not stop when one is on vacation, or even sitting on the toilet.

We can benefit one another better in praying, being a witness to the world of the grace and mercy, that is SUPPOSED to be reflect by us of Christ.

God said "let the wheat and the tare grow together, HE WILL DO THE SEPERATING

If you think something is wrong abstain from it, but don't be an embarassment to the body of Christ, with your sinful whining about toilets and vacations, let that concern be the enemies.

He's mad because he can't take a vacation, and he is the toilet.

Thank you very much!

threebigrocks
Feb 5th 2008, 04:31 PM
Are your sackcloth and ashes greater than the value of your wallet?

diffangle
Feb 5th 2008, 04:37 PM
Mat 7:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

ravening= harpax (Strong's G727)

1) rapacious, ravenous
2) a extortioner, a robber

It's okay for us to beware of charlatans.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 04:39 PM
Mat 7:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

ravening= harpax (Strong's G727)

1) rapacious, ravenous
2) a extortioner, a robber

It's okay for us to beware of charlatans.

Of course it is. When you can prove one is a charlatan and it is more than just an opinion.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 04:41 PM
Are your sackcloth and ashes greater than the value of your wallet?

Yep. By a LONG shot.

minnesotaice
Feb 5th 2008, 04:55 PM
http://t2.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1503826682077&id=394cff95fd540bd61311ccc0a7b2ff89SOAPBOX


One of my major pet peeves is the body of Christ, GOSSIPING, TALEBEARING, FALSE WITNESSING about another brother or sister in the body being attacked by the enemy in whatever form.

who cares? how much a toilet cost, or how many vacations someone takes.

Ministry does not stop, it is a 24 hour job, it does not stop when one is on vacation, or even sitting on the toilet.

We can benefit one another better in praying, being a witness to the world of the grace and mercy, that is SUPPOSED to be reflect by us of Christ.

God said "let the wheat and the tare grow together, HE WILL DO THE SEPERATING

If you think something is wrong abstain from it, but don't be an embarassment to the body of Christ, with your sinful whining about toilets and vacations, let that concern be the enemies.

He's mad because he can't take a vacation, and he is the toilet.

Thank you very much!


You are missing the point. God gave us the law to abide by and if a law is broken, there should be consequences. For us or even unbelievers to shirk away from that, it to not be responsible for the commands God has given.

Brother copeland also stands up in front of his congregation and states that people will be blessed if they give to HIM. That is misleading. He doesn't say that if they give to him, he will spend more on himself. That is not a broken law, but it is deception.

If he uses ministry money for personal things consistently, he should be taxed. That is the law.

threebigrocks
Feb 5th 2008, 05:13 PM
Yep. By a LONG shot.

T'was just a general comment for pondering for whoever reads it. ;)

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 05:22 PM
T'was just a general comment for pondering for whoever reads it. ;)

I know. It's why I answered it. I wanted to make sure folks knew I wasn't protecting my own wallet rather than simply speaking the truth as I perceive it. :cool:

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 05:44 PM
I have no problem with what you've said, PP. Scripture is very clear that we cannot serve both God and mammon. If they are driven by money and that is what they serve then they are indeed in error. However, I don't see how, at least from what we've seen here, that we can know this for sure.Oh we can see it if we will. But then if I put down things I have heard her and others teach then folks are going to want the tape or the writing and all that whatnot because many would defend these guys down to the minute right before they are actually convicted by a jury. I don't have the tapes nor do I have their books to go back and look up the quotes. But there are very few that are into the serious WOF movement that aren't teaching horrible error and sinfulness in that.

Take for example... There isn't many of them that won't tell you... don't hang out with people that don't care about money. They will just drag you down and if they are broke and that's who you hang out with then you'll stay broke with them. I'm paraphrasing now but the point is the same. What you should do is get with those that are successful and sit at their feet and hang with them and get yourself out of the broke mindset.

I've even heard them say that it is a sin to be content with what you have and where you are at... and then they run grab one of those Proverbs that Mark posted as their proof text for that belief.

I can show you in Timothy where Paul makes it clear... it is great gain, with godliness, to be content with what you have be it a little or be it a lot. I can show you where James said that you don't dare show special favor to someone simply because they are rich and he makes it very clear... it's a sin.

They practice both of those things as well as teach them. So yeah... I'd be derelict for not pointing that out.

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 05:52 PM
http://t2.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1503826682077&id=394cff95fd540bd61311ccc0a7b2ff89SOAPBOX


One of my major pet peeves is the body of Christ, GOSSIPING, TALEBEARING, FALSE WITNESSING about another brother or sister in the body being attacked by the enemy in whatever form.

who cares? how much a toilet cost, or how many vacations someone takes.

Ministry does not stop, it is a 24 hour job, it does not stop when one is on vacation, or even sitting on the toilet.

We can benefit one another better in praying, being a witness to the world of the grace and mercy, that is SUPPOSED to be reflect by us of Christ.

God said "let the wheat and the tare grow together, HE WILL DO THE SEPERATING

If you think something is wrong abstain from it, but don't be an embarassment to the body of Christ, with your sinful whining about toilets and vacations, let that concern be the enemies.

He's mad because he can't take a vacation, and he is the toilet.

Thank you very much!Um... here's the thing. He really is being investigated. He really does have some problems with some of those issues and he really may have violated the law. Many others are likely really going to find themselves in the same pickle. We really better talk about this because we really need to make sure that it doesn't continue to happen because this sort of stuff really does hurt the body of Christ. What is embarrassing is not our speaking of these problems that are out there... the embarrassment is caused by the ones that hide behind the law and do things they ought not do. Even if it turns out that the law doesn't crucify them for the acts... the church needs to hold them accountable because while stuff might not technically break the law... they break a lot of moral laws when you hear these preachers say things like "all the money you give to this ministry will be used for getting the gospel to the world." Their taking a vacation several times a year and flying their planes and whatnot... that's all well and good. But the money spent doesn't need to come out of that gospel sharing money because they aren't using it to share the gospel. It needs to come out of that 20 percent that many of them brag about living on. ;)

minnesotaice
Feb 5th 2008, 05:57 PM
Quote:
Ministry does not stop, it is a 24 hour job, it does not stop when one is on vacation, or even sitting on the toilet.




You know it is funny. I work my tail off at a "Secular job" and I am held very accountable by the owners of my company for the work I do, how I spend my time etc....

It frustrates me that pastors want me to give my hard earned money to them and then not be able to hold them accountable for how they spend it.

My ministry is my life and it doesn't include asking people for money and yes pastors and workers deserve vacations of course but they should pay for their vacations out of their salary.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 05:58 PM
Um... here's the thing. He really is being investigated. He really does have some problems with some of those issues and he really may have violated the law. Many others are likely really going to find themselves in the same pickle. We really better talk about this because we really need to make sure that it doesn't continue to happen because this sort of stuff really does hurt the body of Christ. What is embarrassing is not our speaking of these problems that are out there... the embarrassment is caused by the ones that hide behind the law and do things they ought not do. Even if it turns out that the law doesn't crucify them for the acts... the church needs to hold them accountable because while stuff might not technically break the law... they break a lot of moral laws when you hear these preachers say things like "all the money you give to this ministry will be used for getting the gospel to the world." Their taking a vacation several times a year and flying their planes and whatnot... that's all well and good. But the money spent doesn't need to come out of that gospel sharing money because they aren't using it to share the gospel. It needs to come out of that 20 percent that many of them brag about living on. ;)

It definitely needs to be investigated. As God told David, it gives his enemies an excuse to blaspheme. Anytime a believer falls it hurts the church and it hurts it more when a more famous one sins.

As for the church holding them accountable, don't you think that should be done by the proper authority for that ministry? Now, if it's a rogue ministry, then that is something worthy of pointing out for separation purposes.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 06:04 PM
Oh we can see it if we will. But then if I put down things I have heard her and others teach then folks are going to want the tape or the writing and all that whatnot because many would defend these guys down to the minute right before they are actually convicted by a jury. I don't have the tapes nor do I have their books to go back and look up the quotes. But there are very few that are into the serious WOF movement that aren't teaching horrible error and sinfulness in that.

Personally, I would much rather focus on the teachings. And there are some serious teaching errors in that movement.



Take for example... There isn't many of them that won't tell you... don't hang out with people that don't care about money. They will just drag you down and if they are broke and that's who you hang out with then you'll stay broke with them.

That would be what I call the "love of money more than people". Clearly in direct violation of the word.


I've even heard them say that it is a sin to be content with what you have and where you are at... and then they run grab one of those Proverbs that Mark posted as their proof text for that belief.

That would be misuse of scripture for them to do. The point I like to make is that christians can be rich or poor and neither may have a bearing on how close they are to the Lord. Job was as righteous before God when he was rich as when he was poor as he was when he was rich again.


I can show you in Timothy where Paul makes it clear... it is great gain, with godliness, to be content with what you have be it a little or be it a lot. I can show you where James said that you don't dare show special favor to someone simply because they are rich and he makes it very clear... it's a sin.

They practice both of those things as well as teach them. So yeah... I'd be derelict for not pointing that out.


And you would have me agreeing with you whole heartedly on this point.

Where I have an issue in this thread is how people want to use a varying standard for what is extravagant and are not willing to admit that God himself is extravagant in his preparations for us. We should be extravagant in our giving, but if someone has an expensive item, it is jumping the gun to accuse them of love of money when we know nothing of how they got the item, it's purpose, it's worth, or many other things that might make a difference.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 06:08 PM
You know it is funny. I work my tail off at a "Secular job" and I am held very accountable by the owners of my company for the work I do, how I spend my time etc....

It frustrates me that pastors want me to give my hard earned money to them and then not be able to hold them accountable for how they spend it.

I understand your sentiment. But what if your secular job told you how you could spend your money? If your company told you what you could and could not spend your money on you would tell them to take a hike. If you truly give it to someone, it's a gift an you no longer have any say in how it is spent. On the other hand, you don't have to give in the future. That's why "whatsoever you do, do unto the Lord". If you give it to God, by giving to another, then what they do with the gift is between them and the Lord. He warns us not to fall short of the grace that is given to us, but many do anyway. Yet, he still gave us the grace we fell short of. But he may withhold that grace in the future as he says "my Spirit will not always strive with man".

VerticalReality
Feb 5th 2008, 06:35 PM
Oh we can see it if we will. But then if I put down things I have heard her and others teach then folks are going to want the tape or the writing and all that whatnot because many would defend these guys down to the minute right before they are actually convicted by a jury. I don't have the tapes nor do I have their books to go back and look up the quotes. But there are very few that are into the serious WOF movement that aren't teaching horrible error and sinfulness in that.

Take for example... There isn't many of them that won't tell you... don't hang out with people that don't care about money. They will just drag you down and if they are broke and that's who you hang out with then you'll stay broke with them. I'm paraphrasing now but the point is the same. What you should do is get with those that are successful and sit at their feet and hang with them and get yourself out of the broke mindset.

I've even heard them say that it is a sin to be content with what you have and where you are at... and then they run grab one of those Proverbs that Mark posted as their proof text for that belief.

I can show you in Timothy where Paul makes it clear... it is great gain, with godliness, to be content with what you have be it a little or be it a lot. I can show you where James said that you don't dare show special favor to someone simply because they are rich and he makes it very clear... it's a sin.

They practice both of those things as well as teach them. So yeah... I'd be derelict for not pointing that out.

I'm not disputing anything you are claiming here, PP. I'm only speaking of what's been provided in this thread alone. I'm quite confident that there are many out there teaching the very things you state here, and I'm quite confident in saying that you are correct that they are in definite error and certainly need to repent. I'm simply forming my opinions based off what has been provided in this topic alone. I don't do a lot of research on all these televangelists, so I really don't know a whole lot about them. I'm just basing my views off what is being provided here. If I hear the same teachings as you describe in your post, I can certainly judge those teachings and conclude that they are in error. However, I haven't seen anything significant in this thread that would lead me to believe anything about these folks that shows their sin. That's my point here.

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 06:47 PM
Personally, I would much rather focus on the teachings. And there are some serious teaching errors in that movement.




That would be what I call the "love of money more than people". Clearly in direct violation of the word.



That would be misuse of scripture for them to do. The point I like to make is that christians can be rich or poor and neither may have a bearing on how close they are to the Lord. Job was as righteous before God when he was rich as when he was poor as he was when he was rich again.




And you would have me agreeing with you whole heartedly on this point.

Where I have an issue in this thread is how people want to use a varying standard for what is extravagant and are not willing to admit that God himself is extravagant in his preparations for us. We should be extravagant in our giving, but if someone has an expensive item, it is jumping the gun to accuse them of love of money when we know nothing of how they got the item, it's purpose, it's worth, or many other things that might make a difference.Well in regard to Copeland... it is no doubt that he used the jet to go on vacations and stuff. Here is where there's a problem. He did tell folks when raising the money that this jet would be used for nothing more than spreading the gospel of Christ. Like I said... we can make a case that vacations are good and folks need to take time off... even ministers need some chill time. But that ain't in keeping with the promise when he uses the jet for that purpose. Now... if he paid for all the expenses then that would be one thing. Problem is though... it appears that he didn't and in fact it was taken out of the ministry expense. There lies the problem and the thing about it is the amount of money needed to fly those things to and fro. Do that four or five times... it amounts to a large chunk of change. Now... his personal wealth is large enough to easily absorb those charges... but he didn't. That causes questions and rightly so I suspect. Will it stick ultimately in court? Honestly... I think they would have to have much more than that before they would ever take them to court. But the question is still there and that is something the church will need to deal with. And yes... I do believe our ministers MUST be held to a higher standard.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 07:08 PM
Well in regard to Copeland... it is no doubt that he used the jet to go on vacations and stuff. Here is where there's a problem. He did tell folks when raising the money that this jet would be used for nothing more than spreading the gospel of Christ. Like I said... we can make a case that vacations are good and folks need to take time off... even ministers need some chill time. But that ain't in keeping with the promise when he uses the jet for that purpose. Now... if he paid for all the expenses then that would be one thing. Problem is though... it appears that he didn't and in fact it was taken out of the ministry expense. There lies the problem and the thing about it is the amount of money needed to fly those things to and fro. Do that four or five times... it amounts to a large chunk of change. Now... his personal wealth is large enough to easily absorb those charges... but he didn't. That causes questions and rightly so I suspect. Will it stick ultimately in court? Honestly... I think they would have to have much more than that before they would ever take them to court. But the question is still there and that is something the church will need to deal with. And yes... I do believe our ministers MUST be held to a higher standard.

Ministers are held to a higher standard. But all should be under authority to someone. If he lied, then that is something we can talk about too. He needs to address those issues if he said and did them. Government is put in place to deal with this stuff too. This might be a case for both government and church.

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 07:40 PM
Ministers are held to a higher standard. But all should be under authority to someone. If he lied, then that is something we can talk about too. He needs to address those issues if he said and did them. Government is put in place to deal with this stuff too. This might be a case for both government and church.
Ultimately it might be.

And let me say this for the record and this isn't directly about Copeland because we still don't yet know the outcome. But the church does have to get involved in these type things and that starts by talking about it. In the end if it turns out ugly... the church has to be there with bandages and oil... not sticks and stones. If the church dared do that... then I would say they are actually acting like the church should act. Making judgment on someone has to happen if they bear the name of Christ. But we don't condemn them. We judge them then act appropriately. Might come down where you actually have to put a person outside of the fellowship and let the devil have at them. But even then... we must be ready to accept them back into fellowship once they've learned, repented, and got themselves straight. James Bakker is an example of the con and the pro. The Church, by and large, was a poor example in how they treated Bakker.

And as an aside... Copeland was the only man there with arms extended and cash in hand to help Bakker get back on his feet the day he got out of prison. While ultimately Bakker let Copeland know that he learned the doctrine that they taught was error... but that didn't sway Copeland from giving to him when Bakker was in need. From what I understand Copeland did so several times.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 07:46 PM
But the church does have to get involved in these type things and that starts by talking about it. In the end if it turns out ugly... the church has to be there with bandages and oil... not sticks and stones. If the church dared do that... then I would say they are actually acting like the church should act. Making judgment on someone has to happen if they bear the name of Christ. But we don't condemn them. We judge them then act appropriately. Might come down where you actually have to put a person outside of the fellowship and let the devil have at them.

Right. But notice how you are wording things PP. It might, if, etc. When the facts are known, then we judge. That's proper. It is what we are told to do. When we know the facts, we judge. Where there is gray and we don't know, we don't judge. We can judge acts because we can see it and we do it for the benefit of the one that is a member of the church.

The issue is almost always the eye. The splinter is an issue because it impacts the eye.

Bakker was a poor example with the church both before and after. From what I hear, he has a pretty effective ministry now. But it's nothing like it use to be. Granted, I haven't researched it either.

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 07:55 PM
Right. But notice how you are wording things PP. It might, if, etc. When the facts are known, then we judge. That's proper. It is what we are told to do. When we know the facts, we judge. Where there is gray and we don't know, we don't judge. We can judge acts because we can see it and we do it for the benefit of the one that is a member of the church.

The issue is almost always the eye. The splinter is an issue because it impacts the eye.

Bakker was a poor example with the church both before and after. From what I hear, he has a pretty effective ministry now. But it's nothing like it use to be. Granted, I haven't researched it either.
Hence the reason why I put in the fact that I wasn't saying this about Copeland because we don't know the outcome yet. ;)

And I don't follow his ministry now but know enough of it to know he's doing well. It isn't like it used to be in size... but it is better by far. ;)

minnesotaice
Feb 5th 2008, 08:08 PM
I understand your sentiment. But what if your secular job told you how you could spend your money? If your company told you what you could and could not spend your money on you would tell them to take a hike. If you truly give it to someone, it's a gift an you no longer have any say in how it is spent. On the other hand, you don't have to give in the future. That's why "whatsoever you do, do unto the Lord". If you give it to God, by giving to another, then what they do with the gift is between them and the Lord. He warns us not to fall short of the grace that is given to us, but many do anyway. Yet, he still gave us the grace we fell short of. But he may withhold that grace in the future as he says "my Spirit will not always strive with man".


My secular job does not tell me how to spend my money but I am not allowed to use company property for personal endevors. Pastors can use their own salary to go on vacation but the congregation should be able to know approximately how much the pastor makes. The pastor's salary is there because people give the money for that purpose. Congregations should be able to question how the rest of the money is spent as they are giving it for the purpose of ministry.

minnesotaice
Feb 5th 2008, 08:14 PM
I don't think you give blindly to "God" and not ever question how money is spent.

If you are buying something at a retail store, do you ever research it ahead of time? Or do you just say "God will see to it that I get a good product"

We can't put our blinders on. We give to ministry but we have the right to research and ask what is being done with our money. To not do so, is very dangerous.

You are basically saying that if someone claims to be a "Man of God" and with a ministry, you throw your money in the plate and walk away because you gave it to God. That is not how I am a stewart of my money.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2008, 08:52 PM
I don't think you give blindly to "God" and not ever question how money is spent.

If the Lord tells me to give, what more research do I need? Now, if God hasn't told me to give, and I decide to give anyway, then perhaps some prayer and research are in order.


If you are buying something at a retail store, do you ever research it ahead of time? Or do you just say "God will see to it that I get a good product"

But when I give as instructed by the Lord, I am not buying anything. I am giving, per his command.


You are basically saying that if someone claims to be a "Man of God" and with a ministry, you throw your money in the plate and walk away because you gave it to God. That is not how I am a stewart of my money.

No. What I am saying is if God tells me to give to someone, I do it. All I give is unto the Lord.
Why would I give without an unction from Him? Now, if it is my local church, I don't go around looking and making sure everything is OK. Shoot, where does scripture tell me to go looking for sin? It speaks quite the opposite about how I am to think on things that are pure, lovely, etc. Love believes all things and covers a multitude of sin. God has a way of exposing those that sin in secret. But that's how I deal with my church. I would only give to another ministry as I felt led of the Lord to do so. At the very least I would have his permission because I would ask Him before I gave it.

I<3Jesus
Feb 5th 2008, 09:12 PM
Quote:
Ministry does not stop, it is a 24 hour job, it does not stop when one is on vacation, or even sitting on the toilet.




You know it is funny. I work my tail off at a "Secular job" and I am held very accountable by the owners of my company for the work I do, how I spend my time etc....

It frustrates me that pastors want me to give my hard earned money to them and then not be able to hold them accountable for how they spend it.

My ministry is my life and it doesn't include asking people for money and yes pastors and workers deserve vacations of course but they should pay for their vacations out of their salary.

Excellent post! Why do all the good posters have their rep turned off?

Athanasius
Feb 5th 2008, 09:17 PM
Excellent post! Why do all the good posters have their rep turned off?

Because they are wiser than the rest of us ;)

always
Feb 5th 2008, 10:02 PM
Quote:
Ministry does not stop, it is a 24 hour job, it does not stop when one is on vacation, or even sitting on the toilet.




You know it is funny. I work my tail off at a "Secular job" and I am held very accountable by the owners of my company for the work I do, how I spend my time etc....

It frustrates me that pastors want me to give my hard earned money to them and then not be able to hold them accountable for how they spend it.

My ministry is my life and it doesn't include asking people for money and yes pastors and workers deserve vacations of course but they should pay for their vacations out of their salary.

That is my point, we give our monies to the furtherance of the kingdom, now WE have a responsibility to be good stewards of this, and if we feel and know that what we offer as a sacrifice is being misused, give it for this cause elsewhere.

Stop the whining! we appear as bickering fools to the world, these christians against those christians. The word of God warns us of wolves in sheep's clothing, so if they prosper, whose fault is it, it's the laymens fault!

The very mentality "My money" is the same mentality of those you call wolves. I don't have any money, it all belongs to God, all that I have. My time belongs to God, my life belongs to him.

A lover of money is the person of extreme frugalness, he wants to see his money grow, he is not about to spend it on vacations or toilets. He loves it.

My contention is that before we talk about someone, let's pray for them

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 10:15 PM
That is my point, we give our monies to the furtherance of the kingdom, now WE have a responsibility to be good stewards of this, and if we feel and know that what we offer as a sacrifice is being misused, give it for this cause elsewhere.

Stop the whining! we appear as bickering fools to the world, these christians against those christians. The word of God warns us of wolves in sheep's clothing, so if they prosper, whose fault is it, it's the laymens fault!

The very mentality "My money" is the same mentality of those you call wolves. I don't have any money, it all belongs to God, all that I have. My time belongs to God, my life belongs to him.

A lover of money is the person of extreme frugalness, he wants to see his money grow, he is not about to spend it on vacations or toilets. He loves it.

My contention is that before we talk about someone, let's pray for themWhining? You've said that a couple of times and tell me always... whose whining? If by saying hey... problem Houston... that is whining then you are just as whining saying,... stop whining. So if stop whining is the best you got... it ain't much.

always
Feb 5th 2008, 10:24 PM
Whining? You've said that a couple of times and tell me always... whose whining? If by saying hey... problem Houston... that is whining then you are just as whining saying,... stop whining. So if stop whining is the best you got... it ain't much.


Let me put it to you this way

James 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

This conversation is not a good one! it's like, see, see, what he is doing? ooooohh, we need to turn from childish ways.

learn to pray!

ProjectPeter
Feb 5th 2008, 10:44 PM
Let me put it to you this way

James 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

This conversation is not a good one! it's like, see, see, what he is doing? ooooohh, we need to turn from childish ways.

learn to pray!
Pray? Do you not think that I've spent many an hour praying that stuff like this don't happen to minister's across this land? Yet with boldness you can state that this is the problem? Here is another little biblical saying. Don't be deceived.

Talk about some of that there Bible Always. Take what I have said Scripturally and show me where it errs? Show me where Copeland is correct in telling folks that they need to not hang with the folks that are down and out because they'll stay down and out with them... please show me Scripture that teaches any such thing?

Show me where in Scripture that it says we ought not be content with what we have and should want more? Show me these things always because yes... that is exactly the stuff that Copeland teaches. Let's get down to this and call a spade a spade. He teaches a lot of false stuff. He has some good stuff sure... so do many other folks. But in among that good is some right bad stuff.

You guys don't want to talk about the man then let's talk about the man's teaching because ultimately this I can guarantee you. He believes what he teaches and he practices it. If his teaching is error... so is his practice.

diffangle
Feb 5th 2008, 10:49 PM
Let me put it to you this way

James 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

This conversation is not a good one! it's like, see, see, what he is doing? ooooohh, we need to turn from childish ways.

learn to pray!

It's not like "see, see, what he is doing?"... it's more like "IF he is found guilty, then hello world... this is not of Yahushua... this is not the Gospel... not all Christians are or support charlatans". It's kind of like if there wasn't a single Muslim who would step up and condemn the actions of the radical ones then I(and others) might assume that all of Islam backs them up in their thoughts and actions.

always
Feb 5th 2008, 10:56 PM
Pray? Do you not think that I've spent many an hour praying that stuff like this don't happen to minister's across this land? Yet with boldness you can state that this is the problem? Here is another little biblical saying. Don't be deceived.

If you say you have I believe you? the fact that the wolves are still here, will not change my conversation about that. I will speak good of you MY BROTHER, especially amongst the unbelievers.


Talk about some of that there Bible Always. Take what I have said Scripturally and show me where it errs? Show me where Copeland is correct in telling folks that they need to not hang with the folks that are down and out because they'll stay down and out with them... please show me Scripture that teaches any such thing?

actually I believe that! that doesn't mean that I don't love them, pray for them, extend a hand to them, but one should not always be in the valley, at some point in time they should have a mountain top testimony.

If in the valley they won't to be, that's fine, but they will be there without me.


Show me where in Scripture that it says we ought not be content with what we have and should want more? Show me these things always because yes... that is exactly the stuff that Copeland teaches. Let's get down to this and call a spade a spade. He teaches a lot of false stuff. He has some good stuff sure... so do many other folks. But in among that good is some right bad stuff.

We are to be content in whatever situation we are in, and have faith that God will pour out blessings that we won't be able to recieve.


You guys don't want to talk about the man then let's talk about the man's teaching because ultimately this I can guarantee you. He believes what he teaches and he practices it. If his teaching is error... so is his practice.

Does your bible not teach you that if you abide in HIM and HE abide in you, you can ask for what you want?

If we delight ourselves in the Lord, HE will give us the desires of our hearts?

Nooooooooooooo, you will not take from me my heirship to regalness, my Father is king of kings and Lord of Lords.

ProjectPeter
Feb 6th 2008, 01:18 AM
If you say you have I believe you? the fact that the wolves are still here, will not change my conversation about that. I will speak good of you MY BROTHER, especially amongst the unbelievers.Sure you should. I have no reason to lie about it and have in fact spent many such hours.

Here's the thing though always. I am not speaking to unbelievers in here. There's where you seem to have it all messed up. If a preacher does something illegally then we have steps we MUST take and ultimately those steps lead to forgiveness and restoration. But that doesn't mean we pretend this stuff isn't going on or happened if that turns out to be the case.


actually I believe that! that doesn't mean that I don't love them, pray for them, extend a hand to them, but one should not always be in the valley, at some point in time they should have a mountain top testimony. If you believe that then you are out of touch with biblical reality. To focus your life on only those successful by way of money and wealth... that is a sin in the purest form of sin.


If in the valley they won't to be, that's fine, but they will be there without me.And if you think that is the the valley spoken of... then your understanding of Scripture is way out of whack. ;)


We are to be content in whatever situation we are in, and have faith that God will pour out blessings that we won't be able to recieve.Um... alrighty. And if that don't happen?



Does your bible not teach you that if you abide in HIM and HE abide in you, you can ask for what you want?

If we delight ourselves in the Lord, HE will give us the desires of our hearts?

Nooooooooooooo, you will not take from me my heirship to regalness, my Father is king of kings and Lord of Lords.Your "heirship to regalness <sic> " hasn't happened yet. Don't confuse what is sure to come with now. Not all, even most, didn't receive what was promised and that is what true faith is all about.

minnesotaice
Feb 6th 2008, 03:19 AM
That is my point, we give our monies to the furtherance of the kingdom, now WE have a responsibility to be good stewards of this, and if we feel and know that what we offer as a sacrifice is being misused, give it for this cause elsewhere.

Stop the whining! we appear as bickering fools to the world, these christians against those christians. The word of God warns us of wolves in sheep's clothing, so if they prosper, whose fault is it, it's the laymens fault!

When we are deceived into believing that money is being spent a certain way and it is spent another way, is it my fault for trusting someone?

The very mentality "My money" is the same mentality of those you call wolves. I don't have any money, it all belongs to God, all that I have. My time belongs to God, my life belongs to him.


Of course


A lover of money is the person of extreme frugalness, he wants to see his money grow, he is not about to spend it on vacations or toilets. He loves it.

A lover of money can spend it foolishly also

My contention is that before we talk about someone, let's pray for them

I have spent much time praying for this type of teaching, thank you

Brother Mark
Feb 6th 2008, 03:38 AM
It's not like "see, see, what he is doing?"... it's more like "IF he is found guilty, then hello world... this is not of Yahushua... this is not the Gospel... not all Christians are or support charlatans". It's kind of like if there wasn't a single Muslim who would step up and condemn the actions of the radical ones then I(and others) might assume that all of Islam backs them up in their thoughts and actions.

So, if he's not guilty, is he not a charlatan? :hmm: Is it the gospel of Christ?

(Just so you know, I like PP's approach in this matter. For sure, I am willing to discuss doctrinal issues and where he might not line up.)

diffangle
Feb 6th 2008, 04:19 AM
So, if he's not guilty, is he not a charlatan? :hmm: Is it the gospel of Christ?

(Just so you know, I like PP's approach in this matter. For sure, I am willing to discuss doctrinal issues and where he might not line up.)
If you're asking if I think the prosperity gospel is the Gospel... no, I don't. And sure, I agree with PP's approach... I guess I should take that as a hint tho that you don't like my approach, so could you maybe tell me how my approach has been wrong? :hmm:

Brother Mark
Feb 6th 2008, 05:44 AM
If you're asking if I think the prosperity gospel is the Gospel... no, I don't. And sure, I agree with PP's approach... I guess I should take that as a hint tho that you don't like my approach, so could you maybe tell me how my approach has been wrong? :hmm:

I didn't mean anything by it. I was just letting you know that I don't endorse everything anyone says. I felt like I needed to add my agreement with PP in there so others would know I am not endorsing prosperity gospel. (Oh, I think there are two ditches there. One is that God wants us all poor and the other is that God wants us all rich or some variation of those.) But I LOVE to give people the benefit of the doubt because "love believes all things". No need to go around hoping or looking for bad because if it's there, God will eventually bring it to the light. So, I hope there is nothing wrong. I hope he is innocent. With every fiber of my being I hope he is clean. If not, then I will wait until ALL the facts are in before I make a decision one way or the other. And of course, the example we have in First John, is that we are warned of false prophets but none of them are named. (I learned that one from PP.) So we focus on doctrine and teaching others truth without warning about an individual.

minnesotaice
Feb 6th 2008, 11:35 AM
I agree Mark. Maybe we can revisit this post when the facts come out and talk about the church role in this.

I can tell you from personal experience that when people find out I am a believer, the majority of them equate me with the prosperity preachers because that is how most people are familiar with Christianity. I have to explain why that is not what all Christians believe. It is an uphill battle for me. The TV evengelists have a LOT of influence, not just over believers but unbelievers.

diffangle
Feb 6th 2008, 04:01 PM
I didn't mean anything by it. I was just letting you know that I don't endorse everything anyone says. I felt like I needed to add my agreement with PP in there so others would know I am not endorsing prosperity gospel. (Oh, I think there are two ditches there. One is that God wants us all poor and the other is that God wants us all rich or some variation of those.) But I LOVE to give people the benefit of the doubt because "love believes all things". No need to go around hoping or looking for bad because if it's there, God will eventually bring it to the light. So, I hope there is nothing wrong. I hope he is innocent. With every fiber of my being I hope he is clean. If not, then I will wait until ALL the facts are in before I make a decision one way or the other. And of course, the example we have in First John, is that we are warned of false prophets but none of them are named. (I learned that one from PP.) So we focus on doctrine and teaching others truth without warning about an individual.
Even PP has talked about the individual in question in this thread, this is a thread about Kenneth Copeland. There are others of us here that have used the words "if it's true" also, but it seems to go unnoticed and we get told we need to keep our mouths shut or that we're being judgemental, gossiping, money-lovers, etc. Just as in the JM thread, I have posted Scripture in order to focus on doctrine, but I disagree that we shouldn't warn about individuals. If they are scamming and teaching false doctrine then the individual does need to be called out to the body of believers.

I'm not against believer's being rich, but as Yahushua said... "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God"... so that tells me there probably are going to be few rich people in the Kingdom. The prosperity gospel preachers are those ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing and they need to be called out for everyone's benefit(including their own).

VerticalReality
Feb 6th 2008, 04:49 PM
Even PP has talked about the individual in question in this thread, this is a thread about Kenneth Copeland. There are others of us here that have used the words "if it's true" also, but it seems to go unnoticed and we get told we need to keep our mouths shut or that we're being judgemental, gossiping, money-lovers, etc. Just as in the JM thread, I have posted Scripture in order to focus on doctrine, but I disagree that we shouldn't warn about individuals. If they are scamming and teaching false doctrine then the individual does need to be called out to the body of believers.

I'm not against believer's being rich, but as Yahushua said... "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God"... so that tells me there probably are going to be few rich people in the Kingdom. The prosperity gospel preachers are those ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing and they need to be called out for everyone's benefit(including their own).

You state that you should warn folks about individuals, and then you say this is "If they are scamming . . . ". Well, that is exactly the point Brother Mark is trying to make. When we're "warning" individuals of another person we shouldn't need to use the term "If". We should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is something this individual is guilty of and we should stear clear of speculation and slander. I think BrotherMark has been clear that he believes false teachings should be called out and corrected. I think he has been clear that Copeland should be exposed if he is indeed doing wrong. However, we don't know any of this yet, so I don't believe we should be basing the things we say on "If".

diffangle
Feb 6th 2008, 05:14 PM
You state that you should warn folks about individuals, and then you say this is "If they are scamming . . . ". Well, that is exactly the point Brother Mark is trying to make. When we're "warning" individuals of another person we shouldn't need to use the term "If". We should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is something this individual is guilty of and we should stear clear of speculation and slander. I think BrotherMark has been clear that he believes false teachings should be called out and corrected. I think he has been clear that Copeland should be exposed if he is indeed doing wrong. However, we don't know any of this yet, so I don't believe we should be basing the things we say on "If".
Okay, so what you're saying is that Mark is basically saying the same thing that I've been saying all along... so what's with your reprimanding?

Brother Mark
Feb 6th 2008, 05:19 PM
Even PP has talked about the individual in question in this thread, this is a thread about Kenneth Copeland.

Ken gave exact examples that he heard of teaching that was flawed and then spoke against it. He spoke of how we need to be careful. But he had not condemned the man at all. He made sure to communicate that it was not just "if he" but that he might indeed be innocent, even if his doctrinal position is wrong. One could read his post and know PP was giving this man the benefit of the doubt just as he deserves. That's is a great approach. He didn't make any assumptions that he was guilty nor suggest he might be. He simply said the authorities will discover the truth. Yet, some post in such a way that the truth is most likely that he did wrong.

Let me ask you something Diffy, do you think, in your heart that he loves money and that he is guilty?


I have posted Scripture in order to focus on doctrine, but I disagree that we shouldn't warn about individuals.

But they were intended to communicate this man's guilt. At least that's the way I took it. Were they?


If they are scamming and teaching false doctrine then the individual does need to be called out to the body of believers.

Then do as PP did and point out what was actually said and taught by the man, and then give scriptures to show that teaching is wrong.



I'm not against believer's being rich, but as Yahushua said... "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God"... so that tells me there probably are going to be few rich people in the Kingdom. The prosperity gospel preachers are those ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing and they need to be called out for everyone's benefit(including their own).

No doubt the prosperity gospel is wrong. But see, PP didn't just come out and condemn the guy and make post that implied he was guilty. He didn't use this as an opportunity to hope that Copeland would be busted. Instead, he mourned. That's what I liked about his approach. He wasn't eager to tear down this man or his ministry. Prosperity teaching is wrong. (Though there is truth in it, it is abused.) Of course, the opposite is wrong too, that God won't make man rich. He has and will and does. But not everyone. PP doesn't seem to have any ill will at all towards this man. Why? I believe he hopes, as do I, that he is found innocent. If he is guilty, then it has to be dealt with.


There is prosperity in scripture. It's there and it's real. Though, not all are meant to be rich and the "prosperity gospel" can be used to appeal to people's greed. That is wrong through and through. They often wrongly condemn Job. But that is another thread.

Biblical slander is telling the truth to hurt someone. For instance, people fussed about JM having a $23000 commode. It was put out there with the intent to harm her. Now it is possible that was an antique that was gifted to her ministry. Yet, it was put out there as evidence to back up the accusations. That was wrong.

diffangle
Feb 6th 2008, 05:29 PM
Biblical slander is telling the truth to hurt someone. For instance, people fussed about JM having a $23000 commode. It was put out there with the intent to harm her. Now it is possible that was an antique that was gifted to her ministry. Yet, it was put out there as evidence to back up the accusations. That was wrong.

In case you missed it, I was the one who found the article explaining the possible situation with the "commode" and followed it up with a fairly balanced statement. But it seems as those who have personal vendetta's overlook that sort of thing.


I just found this about her "commode"....

http://www.philcooke.com/Joyce_Meyer_toilet

According to him the commode she has is an antique piece that was donated to her and is not a toilet.


I agree. The prosperity gospel is not The Gospel. When I first heard about the commode thing, I thought it was a toilet that she bought which imo would be grossly obvious of her excesses... but if this guys info is accurate, then it's more understandable her having a $23,000 "commode". Of course it would be nice to see it sold and donate that money to a worthy cause, but hey I can also understand not giving away a gift too. :dunno:

Brother Mark
Feb 6th 2008, 05:42 PM
In case you missed it, I was the one who found the article explaining the possible situation with the "commode" and followed it up with a fairly balanced statement. But it seems as those who have personal vendetta's overlook that sort of thing.

I didn't know who brought it up. Even so, don't you agree that it would have been best in that original thread to wait until all the facts were in before people started vilifying her about the commode?

I am really glad you brought it up though because it did need to be pointed out after she was condemned for it on a few threads here. Thanks for doing that.

menJesus
Feb 6th 2008, 06:00 PM
I pointed it out in post # 19 on this thread.

The media is known for unfair and biased reporting, especially among the "religious people". It is wise to learn all of the story before making any kind of accusations about anything anyone else does.

diffangle
Feb 6th 2008, 06:19 PM
I didn't know who brought it up. Even so, don't you agree that it would have been best in that original thread to wait until all the facts were in before people started vilifying her about the commode?

I am really glad you brought it up though because it did need to be pointed out after she was condemned for it on a few threads here. Thanks for doing that.
I guess everyone has a different opinion on what "vilifying" is. I can't speak for the others but in my case I wasn't trying to vilify, I merely wanted to make it a point to say, that if it ended up being the case, that it(misappropriating funds, greed, the prosperity gospel) is wrong. It's good to let the body of believers and the unbelieveing world know that it is not the true Gospel and that not all believers endorse or follow un-Biblically sound doctrine.

VerticalReality
Feb 6th 2008, 06:41 PM
Okay, so what you're saying is that Mark is basically saying the same thing that I've been saying all along... so what's with your reprimanding?

It's called a discussion, diffangle. I'm not "reprimanding". Are you always defensive and on edge about everything?

diffangle
Feb 6th 2008, 07:04 PM
It's called a discussion, diffangle. I'm not "reprimanding". Are you always defensive and on edge about everything?
Some of your responses to my post...


Why do we try to apply our imperfect judgment and define for ourselves what is sin when God has not?

if anyone in this thread sees proof of sin then they need to point it out with clear Scripture showing why it is sin. If you can't do that it is better that we all keep our mouths completely shut and leave the judging to God.

Even though I have used Scripture in my posts.


You state that you should warn folks about individuals, and then you say this is "If they are scamming . . . ". Well, that is exactly the point Brother Mark is trying to make. When we're "warning" individuals of another person we shouldn't need to use the term "If". We should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is something this individual is guilty of and we should stear clear of speculation and slander. I think BrotherMark has been clear that he believes false teachings should be called out and corrected. I think he has been clear that Copeland should be exposed if he is indeed doing wrong. However, we don't know any of this yet, so I don't believe we should be basing the things we say on "If".
The bolded part in your quote is the very same way I've approached this topic but yet it's okay for Mark to say the teachings are wrong and should be called out and that IF Copeland is wrong he should be exposed but when I or others say the same thing, you manage to have rebuke for me/us. Why can Mark and PP use the words "if" but I or some of the others here can't? Why can they say that false teachings should be called out but I and others can't? You're post above is very conflicting.

Yeah you've got me all figured out VR... I'm "always defensive and on edge about everything". :rofl:

threebigrocks
Feb 6th 2008, 07:15 PM
If someone has killed someone, they are guilty of murder. We can't argue with that.

If someone is accused of killing someone, can we yet condemn what we don't know even with partial truth? No. What if the evidence looks really bad? Nope, still won't work.

We can judge each other as believers, we are told to. We must. If someone goes astray we are to put them out of our fellowship until they have turned themselves around and not associate with them until then. We leave unbelievers to be judged by God.

Thing is, Copeland hasn't been convicted. We must wait and pray that what needs bringing out in the light is brought out and does not remain in darkness. If he's innocent and there's still a mess - then those who made the mess be brought into the light.

And anyone can use the word if as much as they want. But only if you want to, in which case you would be guilty of using the word if. But until then you will be innocent. :D

VerticalReality
Feb 6th 2008, 07:16 PM
Some of your responses to my post...

Even though I have used Scripture in my posts.

Was that post in response to you?:hmm:


The bolded part in your quote is the very same way I've approached this topic but yet it's okay for Mark to say the teachings are wrong and should be called out and that IF Copeland is wrong he should be exposed but when I or others say the same thing, you manage to have rebuke for me/us. Why can Mark and PP use the words "if" but I or some of the others here can't? Why can they say that false teachings should be called out but I and others can't? You're post above is very conflicting.

Actually, I think what BrotherMark and myself are getting at is that some in this thread are already speaking like the "If" has already taken place. That was what I was trying to clarify with my post. I was not "reprimanding" or "rebuking", but I see you took offense anyway.

threebigrocks
Feb 6th 2008, 07:22 PM
Keep the personal issues out of the discussion, agreed?

menJesus
Feb 6th 2008, 07:22 PM
You bring up a great point here. Unfortunately, I don`t think any of the people posting here are ON the governing board, or IN a position to judge - it seems more like armchair quarterbacking, to me.

And certainly no one here has walked a mile - or a foot - through Kenneth Copeland`s heart. Or Joyce Meyer`s. Or anyone else`s. Only God.

minnesotaice
Feb 6th 2008, 11:05 PM
I honestly hope Copeland is innocent because I think it brings a terrible witness to Christ when a high profile person like him is convicted of tax fraud and money related crimes (Jim Baker).

I do not think that CBS News would be reporting something however that is heresay and on the program, several employees came forth with testimonies that were very damaging to the ministry. This remains to be seen what will happen.

St_Michael
Feb 6th 2008, 11:43 PM
Am I surprised by any of this? No. The Word of Faith movement is truly disturbing.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 03:50 AM
Here's the thing though always. I am not speaking to unbelievers in here. There's where you seem to have it all messed up. If a preacher does something illegally then we have steps we MUST take and ultimately those steps lead to forgiveness and restoration. But that doesn't mean we pretend this stuff isn't going on or happened if that turns out to be the case.

No, you are not speaking to unbelievers, and as we are believers, why do we marvel at what the word has told us to expect, those who will pervert the word for the sake of mone.

this thread is profiting nothing, it is simply an attack on a ministry that preaches in Christ Jesus that we are the head and not the foot, which is scripture.


If you believe that then you are out of touch with biblical reality. To focus your life on only those successful by way of money and wealth... that is a sin in the purest form of sin.

so says YOU, my focus is on the fact that in Christ Jesus, I can do all things! that's scripture! biblical reality, is in fact supernatural, because faith in God and his promises lift us up not down, in any situation.


And if you think that is the the valley spoken of... then your understanding of Scripture is way out of whack. ;)

Your "heirship to regalness <sic> " hasn't happened yet. Don't confuse what is sure to come with now. Not all, even most, didn't receive what was promised and that is what true faith is all about.

No, yours hasn't happen yet, when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I became a child of God, a child of a king. You can live beneath your calling if you want to, and not accept the benefits as a child of God, that's like working on a secular job and not using the benefits it offers you. foolish.

I don't know much about Copeland, and it doesn't matter, the word tells us to always pray especially for the household of faith.

and I've been here long enough to see these pitiful threads surface now and then, if the man is investigated and found guilty he will pay, I've heard of him, and know he's been around for a while, so I'm sure this is not the first time he has face this,

God said what is done in darkness will come to the light, I pray that they find nothing, I heard Creflo Dollar state once that he welcomes investigations such as these, just so individuals like you can voice their envy, and at his vindication, have to repent of it.

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 10:52 AM
No, you are not speaking to unbelievers, and as we are believers, why do we marvel at what the word has told us to expect, those who will pervert the word for the sake of mone.

this thread is profiting nothing, it is simply an attack on a ministry that preaches in Christ Jesus that we are the head and not the foot, which is scripture.



so says YOU, my focus is on the fact that in Christ Jesus, I can do all things! that's scripture! biblical reality, is in fact supernatural, because faith in God and his promises lift us up not down, in any situation.



No, yours hasn't happen yet, when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I became a child of God, a child of a king. You can live beneath your calling if you want to, and not accept the benefits as a child of God, that's like working on a secular job and not using the benefits it offers you. foolish.

I don't know much about Copeland, and it doesn't matter, the word tells us to always pray especially for the household of faith.

and I've been here long enough to see these pitiful threads surface now and then, if the man is investigated and found guilty he will pay, I've heard of him, and know he's been around for a while, so I'm sure this is not the first time he has face this,

God said what is done in darkness will come to the light, I pray that they find nothing, I heard Creflo Dollar state once that he welcomes investigations such as these, just so individuals like you can voice their envy, and at his vindication, have to repent of it.
Funny how you heard Creflo welcome such as that... it wasn't the truth though as investigations such as that has come a knocking at his door several times and those doors close so tight a slug can't slither through. But hey... it's easy to say that stuff.

And with God, all things are sure enough possible. Problem is... with most... God gets tossed aside somewhere as money becomes the focus. And them there are Jesus' own words with my paraphrase.

I<3Jesus
Feb 7th 2008, 02:04 PM
When I pray and ask God for guidance about these evangelists I get the distinct impression that he wants me to steer clear of them. I wish more people would do that, then they wouldn't have large flocks of sheep to fleece. I think it is dangerous. Are those people worshiping the Lord through these evangelists or are they worshiping the evangelists? When I see them tack their name to the gospel, put a price tag on it and peddle it to the masses I cringe. Wake up people, you do not need some smooth talking, flashy, TV personality to help you have a relationship with God. All you need is to set aside some one on one time. That is what he wants. When Christ taught the disciples to pray he told them to go into their rooms and close the door. When I see these evangelists I am led to believe (through my prayers) that they are the modern day pharisees. You will not get into the kingdom of heaven by riding the coat tails of hypocrites.

Lyndie
Feb 7th 2008, 05:04 PM
When I pray and ask God for guidance about these evangelists I get the distinct impression that he wants me to steer clear of them. I wish more people would do that, then they wouldn't have large flocks of sheep to fleece. I think it is dangerous. Are those people worshiping the Lord through these evangelists or are they worshiping the evangelists? When I see them tack their name to the gospel, put a price tag on it and peddle it to the masses I cringe. Wake up people, you do not need some smooth talking, flashy, TV personality to help you have a relationship with God. All you need is to set aside some one on one time. That is what he wants. When Christ taught the disciples to pray he told them to go into their rooms and close the door. When I see these evangelists I am led to believe (through my prayers) that they are the modern day pharisees. You will not get into the kingdom of heaven by riding the coat tails of hypocrites.

The thing is, each and everyone of us on this board could walk in to one another's church and say the same thing. "Your church is wrong on this, that and the other." We say things about people here we have no contact with, would we have the nerve to do it to each other's faces? Making assumptions about anyone or anything without the facts is dangerous. We will all disagree about something in someone's doctrine. But the words used here about these famous people, I can say for sure, are words we wouldn't use with one another's church on this board.(fleecing the flock, etc) For me, I'll work out my own salvation. Not Copeland's, JM's or anybody elses.

If they are doing something wrong, it will come out. It's happened before, it will happen again, and again, and again. I was wondering too, those who are doing the investigating, are they christians? Or just people trying to take down large ministries, so they can get to the smaller ones? If they work thier way down, every single one of our churches will be under the magnifying glass at some point, and I can guarantee even if you think your church is perfect, these same investigators will find something wrong. People seem to forget the can of worms this will open up for christians everywhere.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 05:09 PM
The thing is, each and everyone of us on this board could walk in to one another's church and say the same thing. "Your church is wrong on this, that and the other." We say things about people here we have no contact with, would we have the nerve to do it to each other's faces? Making assumptions about anyone or anything without the facts is dangerous. We will all disagree about something in someone's doctrine. But the words used here about these famous people, I can say for sure, are words we wouldn't use with one another's church on this board.(fleecing the flock, etc) For me, I'll work out my own salvation. Not Copeland's, JM's or anybody elses.

If they are doing something wrong, it will come out. It's happened before, it will happen again, and again, and again. I was wondering too, those who are doing the investigating, are they christians? Or just people trying to take down large ministries, so they can get to the smaller ones? If they work thier way down, every single one of our churches will be under the magnifying glass at some point, and I can guarantee even if you think your church is perfect, these same investigators will find something wrong. People seem to forget the can of worms this will open up for christians everywhere.


Excellent and mature post

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 05:31 PM
The thing is, each and everyone of us on this board could walk in to one another's church and say the same thing. "Your church is wrong on this, that and the other." We say things about people here we have no contact with, would we have the nerve to do it to each other's faces? Making assumptions about anyone or anything without the facts is dangerous. We will all disagree about something in someone's doctrine. But the words used here about these famous people, I can say for sure, are words we wouldn't use with one another's church on this board.(fleecing the flock, etc) For me, I'll work out my own salvation. Not Copeland's, JM's or anybody elses.

If they are doing something wrong, it will come out. It's happened before, it will happen again, and again, and again. I was wondering too, those who are doing the investigating, are they christians? Or just people trying to take down large ministries, so they can get to the smaller ones? If they work thier way down, every single one of our churches will be under the magnifying glass at some point, and I can guarantee even if you think your church is perfect, these same investigators will find something wrong. People seem to forget the can of worms this will open up for christians everywhere.
It will open a huge can of worms. That I can assure you as it always does and in truth it probably should.

I<3Jesus
Feb 7th 2008, 05:46 PM
The thing is, each and everyone of us on this board could walk in to one another's church and say the same thing. "Your church is wrong on this, that and the other." We say things about people here we have no contact with, would we have the nerve to do it to each other's faces? Making assumptions about anyone or anything without the facts is dangerous. We will all disagree about something in someone's doctrine. But the words used here about these famous people, I can say for sure, are words we wouldn't use with one another's church on this board.(fleecing the flock, etc) For me, I'll work out my own salvation. Not Copeland's, JM's or anybody elses.

Give me one example of a normal brick and mortar church that does what the evangelists do. I bet you cannot, Lord knows I can't.


If they are doing something wrong, it will come out. It's happened before, it will happen again, and again, and again. I was wondering too, those who are doing the investigating, are they christians? Or just people trying to take down large ministries, so they can get to the smaller ones? If they work thier way down, every single one of our churches will be under the magnifying glass at some point, and I can guarantee even if you think your church is perfect, these same investigators will find something wrong. People seem to forget the can of worms this will open up for christians everywhere.I think Christians need to stop making excuses for the bad actions of a few people by saying "ZOMG, it is the evil, non believing heathens who are doing this cause they hate God and the church." Clearly I exaggerated, but that is a common theme whenever someone gets investigated. I am sure there are times when religious persecution is viable, but sometimes people get investigated simply because they are misappropriating funds and not because the world is out to get them.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 05:47 PM
It will open a huge can of worms. That I can assure you as it always does and in truth it probably should.

You know the word says that your enemy becomes your footstool, it makes me think about the Barry Bond issue, how going after one man with a vengence, brought up a host of other men's weaknesses as well.

NOT just the ones with the problems, but the one with envy problems too

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 05:53 PM
You know the word says that your enemy becomes your footstool, it makes me think about the Barry Bond issue, how going after one man with a vengence, brought up a host of other men's weaknesses as well.

NOT just the ones with the problems, but the one with envy problems too

No doubt that Romans 2 asks why do we judge when we are guilty of the same thing.

HOWEVER, government is put here to help keep evil in check. There is nothing wrong with encouraging government to investigate wrong doing or law breaking. I hope they are innocent. But I don't hope the investigation is dropped until it is proven one way or the other.

When someone (Barry Bonds included) does something illegal or immoral, there's simply nothing wrong with paying the piper. If they are innocent that will come out too. But let's not cheer for their guilt!

always
Feb 7th 2008, 05:53 PM
not because the world is out to get them.

If you don't think that satan is not out to attack and pull down the body of Christ you are very naive.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 05:56 PM
No doubt that Romans 2 asks why do we judge when we are guilty of the same thing.

HOWEVER, government is put here to help keep evil in check. There is nothing wrong with encouraging government to investigate wrong doing or law breaking. I hope they are innocent. But I don't hope the investigation is dropped until it is proven one way or the other.

When someone (Barry Bonds included) does something illegal or immoral, there's simply nothing wrong with paying the piper. If they are innocent that will come out too. But let's not cheer for their guilt!


No one is cheering anything wrong on, but it is sad to see the body of Christ on the sideline gawking instead of praying.

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 06:00 PM
No one is cheering anything wrong on, but it is sad to see the body of Christ on the sideline gawking instead of praying.

Please bear with me. I want to ask you a question in such a way as to get you to thinking. You know what I have said previously on this thread so far. With that in mind... Don't you think that part about praying is a judgment? While you might see the gawking, do you know the prayer life of other believers?

As for the cheering comment, I meant that for the folks that are hoping guilt of the accused parties is a truth.

I<3Jesus
Feb 7th 2008, 06:08 PM
If you don't think that satan is not out to attack and pull down the body of Christ you are very naive.

I'm not naive, I just do not blame the boogie man for everything like many Christians do.

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 06:10 PM
You know the word says that your enemy becomes your footstool, it makes me think about the Barry Bond issue, how going after one man with a vengence, brought up a host of other men's weaknesses as well.

NOT just the ones with the problems, but the one with envy problems too
Bond's needed busted as does anyone else doing that stuff what with it being illegal and all. So not sure what your point is... it causes fallout and that is always the case and as I said... truth be told... that's fine because it is likely needed.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 06:18 PM
Please bear with me. I want to ask you a question in such a way as to get you to thinking. You know what I have said previously on this thread so far. With that in mind... Don't you think that part about praying is a judgment? While you might see the gawking, do you know the prayer life of other believers?

As for the cheering comment, I meant that for the folks that are hoping guilt of the accused parties is a truth.


No problem, because I sincerely want to understand this mentality, these type of threads come up often.

It makes my skin crawl to see the body of Christ fight one another, Yes! lets stand together and fight what is not of God, but I see this criticism only in reference to what some call here "word of faith"? I had never heard that before coming here, and I never knew that ones had problems with other christians faith.

I want you to understand me, there is no goal that I percieved as unattainable if I put God first in my life. Thats my faith, it's between me and God, no one else.

I do recognize that there are wolves that want money and pervert God's message.

but do you really feel that God would let them continue to get away with it? and we as christians have a responsibility for our own souls, the bible is there for all of us to read.

IF I GO TO HELL, IT WILL NOT BE BECAUSE I WAS LED THERE

My comment was not a blanket, I'm sure there are those praying that these bros and sis go through their fires and come out as gold.

but I am just as sure that some want them to be pull down because of the confidence they teach that we can have in Christ.

What is wrong with confidence in Christ for whatever?

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 06:18 PM
No one is cheering anything wrong on, but it is sad to see the body of Christ on the sideline gawking instead of praying.
Again... are you so arrogant as to think we aren't praying? You have said this several times now as if it is the only spin you have to defend this sort of thing. Rest assured that there is plenty of praying going on over this sort of thing... some of it has been going on for years.

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 06:18 PM
If you don't think that satan is not out to attack and pull down the body of Christ you are very naive.How do you see satan working in this?

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 06:20 PM
Bond's needed busted as does anyone else doing that stuff what with it being illegal and all. So not sure what your point is... it causes fallout and that is always the case and as I said... truth be told... that's fine because it is likely needed.

Agree on all accounts. Persecution has a way of cleaning things up. When sin is not repented of, God will expose it. If it's not there, then the church is strengthened. If it's there and exposed, then the church is strengthened.

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 06:20 PM
No problem, because I sincerely want to understand this mentality, these type of threads come up often.

It makes my skin crawl to see the body of Christ fight one another, Yes! lets stand together and fight what is not of God, but I see this criticism only in reference to what some call here "word of faith"? I had never heard that before coming here, and I never knew that ones had problems with other christians faith.

I want you to understand me, there is no goal that I percieved as unattainable if I put God first in my life. Thats my faith, it's between me and God, no one else.

I do recognize that there are wolves that want money and pervert God's message.

but do you really feel that God would let them continue to get away with it? and we as christians have a responsibility for our own souls, the bible is there for all of us to read.

IF I GO TO HELL, IT WILL NOT BE BECAUSE I WAS LED THERE

My comment was not a blanket, I'm sure there are those praying that these bros and sis go through their fires and come out as gold.

but I am just as sure that some want them to be pull down because of the confidence they teach that we can have in Christ.

What is wrong with confidence in Christ for whatever?Yes God will let them continue to get away with it... for a season. But notice that you lay blame on this to Satan and yet you don't for a second add that perhaps it is God no longer letting them get away with it. You chose the one option and ignore the other.

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 06:23 PM
My comment was not a blanket, I'm sure there are those praying that these bros and sis go through their fires and come out as gold.

How do you know anyone in this thread is not praying about it? Do you know the prayer life of any believer in this thread besides your own?


What is wrong with confidence in Christ for whatever?

Nothing if he says he'll give it to you. But God is not my genie. He doesn't work for me. I am His. He blesses me as he chooses or he test me like Job. I am His. I bow to Him. Not the other way around.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 06:24 PM
Yes God will let them continue to get away with it... for a season. But notice that you lay blame on this to Satan and yet you don't for a second add that perhaps it is God no longer letting them get away with it. You chose the one option and ignore the other.

Because there is no proof yet, that they have done anything wrong:hmm: but have an expensive toilet, or a plane, or a vacation?

always
Feb 7th 2008, 06:27 PM
How do you know anyone in this thread is not praying about it? Do you know the prayer life of any believer in this thread besides your own?



Nothing if he says he'll give it to you. But God is not my genie. He doesn't work for me. I am His. He blesses me as he chooses or he test me like Job. I am His. I bow to Him. Not the other way around.

Oh my God! nothing has ever worked for me, but my life in Christ Jesus.

He tells us to come boldly to the throne of grace, and

if He abides in us and we abide in him, we can ask for what we want!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS SCRIPTURE

YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DON'T

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 06:30 PM
Oh my God! nothing has ever worked for me, but my life in Christ Jesus.

He tells us to come boldly to the throne of grace, and

if He abides in us and we abide in him, we can ask for what we want!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS SCRIPTURE

YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DON'T

But sometimes he says no because when we ask what we want, we ask amiss to spend it on our own lust. That's scripture too that should be believed.

Let's not keep going on the prayer life of other believers OK?

I<3Jesus
Feb 7th 2008, 06:32 PM
Always - Don't you realize that your assumptions about the prayer life of other believer's is just as bad, if not worse than their assumptions about these public figures? You are being very hypocritical at the moment. That is not an attack, I sincerely hope it does not get deleted. I think you need to think about the way you present yourself.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 06:39 PM
Always - Don't you realize that your assumptions about the prayer life of other believer's is just as bad, if not worse than their assumptions about these public figures? You are being very hypocritical at the moment. That is not an attack, I sincerely hope it does not get deleted. I think you need to think about the way you present yourself.

Who in this thread posted a prayer ? present myself to who? God?

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 06:40 PM
Who in this thread posted a prayer ? present myself to who? God?

Can you see into the prayer closet? This thread doesn't strike me as the place to pray.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 06:43 PM
Can you see into the prayer closet? This thread doesn't strike me as the place to pray.

You can pray anywhere.

You guys be blessed

I<3Jesus
Feb 7th 2008, 06:43 PM
Who in this thread posted a prayer ? present myself to who? God?

No one, but you have made a lot of assumptions about people's prayer lives. I do not believe for one second that you did not understand my post. You should worry about how you present yourself to God obviously, but also to believers and non believers as well. If you are representing Christianity make sure you are doing so in a positive light.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 06:46 PM
No one, but you have made a lot of assumptions about people's prayer lives. I do not believe for one second that you did not understand my post. You should worry about how you present yourself to God obviously, but also to believers and non believers as well. If you are representing Christianity make sure you are doing so in a positive light.

that is what bashing these individual without a conviction is? positive?

um hum

I<3Jesus
Feb 7th 2008, 06:58 PM
that is what bashing these individual without a conviction is? positive?

um hum

That is not what I am referring to and you know it.

threebigrocks
Feb 7th 2008, 07:00 PM
Bond's needed busted as does anyone else doing that stuff what with it being illegal and all. So not sure what your point is... it causes fallout and that is always the case and as I said... truth be told... that's fine because it is likely needed.

Look at what PP has said here. It's not the details so much as overall what needs to happen to expose ill and evil for what it is. Not a thing can be done until it is exposed and dealt with. This is, nobody wants to do it. Everyone agrees there is an elephant in the room and it's done something that stinks but nobody wants to actually point to the steaming pile and admit that it reeks.

The things that are happening with Copeland will play out. If it hurts believers, good. It ought to. The pain there will produce fruit of it's like kind as well. Maybe it will get more people prayerfully pointing out the obvious so it can be dealt with. The possibilities of what can happen with more situations like that - it makes me want to weep and rejoice at the same time.

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 08:03 PM
Because there is no proof yet, that they have done anything wrong:hmm: but have an expensive toilet, or a plane, or a vacation?The proof is there always in those very things. The question that folks are asking is are they within the law for having those things and that is going to be up to the Senate and Congress to hash out. Even though they might get through all of this based on the letter of the law (that is what I figure will happen) what they have done is likely caused the Congress to rewrite the laws and it is those rewrites that are likely going to hurt the smaller ministry and church.

I said it before in the forum... many times actually. I don't concern myself with the whole "fleecing" idea that much because the sheep that keep giving to these ministries give it to them with their eyes wide open. If they are being "fleeced" then they are doing so wanting to be. These guys don't hide their lifestyle nor their desire for even more. Everyone that gives to someone that is wide open with that belief... that's on them.

My problem is in the teaching itself which is slap full of error. Naturally though... folks that defend them tooth and nail have no real desire to actually talk about the teaching itself.

Let me say this to you in particular. You often mention that you don't really listen much to these guys and I figure you do more so than you admit. But if you honestly don't listen to them... then I would be a whole lot slower to run to their defense. I would think common sense would dictate that eh?

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 08:04 PM
Oh my God! nothing has ever worked for me, but my life in Christ Jesus.

He tells us to come boldly to the throne of grace, and

if He abides in us and we abide in him, we can ask for what we want!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS SCRIPTURE

YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DON'TAnd let's hear it... we can ask what we want.. a Bently, Multi-million dollar mansion... furs, expensive jewelry and fancy 5000 dollar suits and all! You honestly believe that this is what Jesus Christ was teaching when Jesus Christ said that?

always
Feb 7th 2008, 08:16 PM
And let's hear it... we can ask what we want.. a Bently, Multi-million dollar mansion... furs, expensive jewelry and fancy 5000 dollar suits and all! You honestly believe that this is what Jesus Christ was teaching when Jesus Christ said that?

Praise the Lord! the ministry God gave me and my husband was just blessed with a gift gas card for our upcoming prison ministry trip that is over three hundred miles away from us.

Thank you Jesus! we have to rent a van now, but I've asked believing that God will bless us with our own (we recently got our 501C3 status) and my spiritual eyes can see one day flying to prison units out of our state.

Thank you Jesus!

threebigrocks
Feb 7th 2008, 09:05 PM
always, I'm not understanding in the teeniest bit why you followed up PP with that.

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 09:10 PM
always, I'm not understanding in the teeniest bit why you followed up PP with that.

Me either.... :hmm:

Athanasius
Feb 7th 2008, 09:11 PM
Err, health, wealth, prosperity--claim it baby?!

always
Feb 7th 2008, 09:21 PM
always, I'm not understanding in the teeniest bit why you followed up PP with that.

because I'm happy!!!! we needed that donation of gas for the trip, even smaller ministries hear flak like what are you doing with the money?, from ones that do not even donate.

God blesses anyway, and HE will do the seperating, Im sure some of the thingsI'm believing Him for the ministry HE has given us, would get snarls from some of you.

but like was stated, I don't know your prayer lives, lift us in prayer bros.and sis. lift us in prayer

Brother Mark
Feb 7th 2008, 09:23 PM
because I'm happy!!!! we needed that donation of gas for the trip, even smaller ministries hear flak like what are you doing with the money?, from ones that do not even donate.

God blesses anyway, and HE will do the seperating, Im sure some of the thingsI'm believing Him for the ministry HE has given us, would get snarls from some of you.

but like was stated, I don't know your prayer lives, lift us in prayer bros.and sis. lift us in prayer


Well praise the Lord! But why in response to his question? I am glad the Lord has intervened and it's not the first nor the last he will do such things in his kingdom.

But what about PP's question?

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 09:30 PM
Praise the Lord! the ministry God gave me and my husband was just blessed with a gift gas card for our upcoming prison ministry trip that is over three hundred miles away from us.

Thank you Jesus! we have to rent a van now, but I've asked believing that God will bless us with our own (we recently got our 501C3 status) and my spiritual eyes can see one day flying to prison units out of our state.

Thank you Jesus!And what has that to do with anything that I asked you always?

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 09:33 PM
because I'm happy!!!! we needed that donation of gas for the trip, even smaller ministries hear flak like what are you doing with the money?, from ones that do not even donate.

God blesses anyway, and HE will do the seperating, Im sure some of the thingsI'm believing Him for the ministry HE has given us, would get snarls from some of you.

but like was stated, I don't know your prayer lives, lift us in prayer bros.and sis. lift us in prayerWhat does one need to go to a prison and minister? Gas, van, even a bus to take a team? Words cost nothing... and transportation, while expensive enough, only takes so much. Do you need a Bently to get there? Stay in 5 star Hotel suites when you do get there? What exactly are you believing for as necessary to do something that is ultimately free.... talk.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 09:38 PM
In reference to PP's question, if, (there is always that word "if" for blessings are conditional,) someone works, and wants those things, a Bentley, fur whatever will not send them to hell.

I answer him like that because the joy is not in those things, but the things that help us minister.

I don't and you don't know these peoples heart or what they have been through to get where they are at. I only know the money and time I've spent because of the joy of the ministry I'm in.

You reap what you sow! I thank God for my trials and triibulations and for my blessings.

I don't begrudge anyone anything. As long as they put God first, all these other things will be added spiritual and natural

always
Feb 7th 2008, 09:39 PM
What does one need to go to a prison and minister? Gas, van, even a bus to take a team? Words cost nothing... and transportation, while expensive enough, only takes so much. Do you need a Bently to get there? Stay in 5 star Hotel suites when you do get there? What exactly are you believing for as necessary to do something that is ultimately free.... talk.


obviously ignorant of the work:rolleyes: no you do not need a Bentley, but you do need food, lodging, and uniforms are nice, if you want to stay in one state, the bus or van is adequate, but a desire to spread the word further calls for something else.

Today tools like power points, microphones, song tracks for worship, sound equipment the list goes on ... and God provides

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 09:51 PM
obviously ignorant of the work:rolleyes: no you do not need a Bentley, but you do need food, lodging, and uniforms are nice, if you want to stay in one state, the bus or van is adequate, but a desire to spread the word further calls for something else.

Today tools like power points, microphones, song tracks for worship, sound equipment the list goes on ... and God providesI have no problem with any of those things as they are appropriate in doing the work which I am far from ignorant of (despite your attitude). But that wasn't even close to anything that I asked and yes... Creflo, Joyce, Long, Copelands, and others of that teaching have those type things. Furs, jewelry, etc. None of that having anything to do with ministering the gospel of Christ and yet they are using the money received for such as that. Tap dance all you want always... that's a very simple fact. That is exactly the sort of thing that has the government breathing down their necks right now and yes... that will sadly have an effect on many other ministries that are scrapping and kicking out there.

threebigrocks
Feb 7th 2008, 09:54 PM
because I'm happy!!!! we needed that donation of gas for the trip, even smaller ministries hear flak like what are you doing with the money?, from ones that do not even donate.

God blesses anyway, and HE will do the seperating, Im sure some of the thingsI'm believing Him for the ministry HE has given us, would get snarls from some of you.

but like was stated, I don't know your prayer lives, lift us in prayer bros.and sis. lift us in prayer

It was so random - it came across like a poke in the eye.

Pretty much creates total doubt over your sincerity.

Take your trip. Then give what's left on the gas card to someone who needs it just to get to work to put food on the table.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 09:55 PM
It was so random - it came across like a poke in the eye.

Pretty much creates total doubt over your sincerity.

Take your trip. Then give what's left on the gas card to someone who needs it just to get to work to put food on the table.

That is why Im so glad that God is not like man!!!! doing a little Holy Ghost dance

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 09:57 PM
It was so random - it came across like a poke in the eye.

Pretty much creates total doubt over your sincerity.

Take your trip. Then give what's left on the gas card to someone who needs it just to get to work to put food on the table.
See... it gets down to a simple fact. Discuss the doctrine itself? No way they will. They can't because it falls so far short of Scripture that it is almost sad folks buy into the mess. So instead... hang on stuff that means nothing... a proverb here and there and call it biblical! Sad reality... many will follow their bank accounts straight to eternal damnation and that right there is the sad biblical reality. All the while thinking it was cool with God.

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 09:58 PM
That is why Im so glad that God is not like man!!!! doing a little Holy Ghost dance
Want to talk about the doctrine itself always?

threebigrocks
Feb 7th 2008, 09:59 PM
That is why Im so glad that God is not like man!!!! doing a little Holy Ghost dance

Then trust God over your own desires. Build wisely and carefully.

And I hear camels do really well over long distances in adverse weather. Cheaper than a private jet too!

always
Feb 7th 2008, 10:07 PM
It was so random - it came across like a poke in the eye.

Pretty much creates total doubt over your sincerity.

Take your trip. Then give what's left on the gas card to someone who needs it just to get to work to put food on the table.


Let me get serious, I am just so happy right now.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, "you state what's left" God strengthens us to go to prisons approx. every other weekend, our team is booked until the end of the year. with that, you just don't walk into a prison, there is State Training you attend every six months, to deal with relevent prison issues.

We have been doing this for ten years, started small, funded ourselves, as the team grows, we are reaching more and more prisons and LOST souls,

so if it's my sincerity you question, God said go into the hedges and the hiways, something I don't have to do but because of the love of God, I do, and PP, this is why I don't know much about most of these evangelist, because I'm busy doing that.

So I could care less what individuals whining have to say

diffangle
Feb 7th 2008, 10:23 PM
Let me get serious, I am just so happy right now.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, "you state what's left" God strengthens us to go to prisons approx. every other weekend, our team is booked until the end of the year. with that, you just don't walk into a prison, there is State Training you attend every six months, to deal with relevent prison issues.

We have been doing this for ten years, started small, funded ourselves, as the team grows, we are reaching more and more prisons and LOST souls,

so if it's my sincerity you question, God said go into the hedges and the hiways, something I don't have to do but because of the love of God, I do, and PP, this is why I don't know much about most of these evangelist, because I'm busy doing that.

So I could care less what individuals whining have to say
The prison ministry you do is a great thing always, very awesome, but what do you think about the prosperity gospel and using church funds for things like $11,000 a night hotel rooms and Rolls Royce's, etc.?

ProjectPeter
Feb 7th 2008, 10:35 PM
Let me get serious, I am just so happy right now.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, "you state what's left" God strengthens us to go to prisons approx. every other weekend, our team is booked until the end of the year. with that, you just don't walk into a prison, there is State Training you attend every six months, to deal with relevent prison issues.

We have been doing this for ten years, started small, funded ourselves, as the team grows, we are reaching more and more prisons and LOST souls,

so if it's my sincerity you question, God said go into the hedges and the hiways, something I don't have to do but because of the love of God, I do, and PP, this is why I don't know much about most of these evangelist, because I'm busy doing that.

So I could care less what individuals whining have to say
Again you use the "whining" word. Here's a fact always. I know well what they teach. You say you don't and yet here you challenge me tooth and nail? And you claim that you really have no clue what they teach? How, pray tell, does that make any sense at all?

always
Feb 7th 2008, 11:14 PM
The prison ministry you do is a great thing always, very awesome, but what do you think about the prosperity gospel and using church funds for things like $11,000 a night hotel rooms and Rolls Royce's, etc.?

that would be wrong, that's obvious, but there is no proof that the people you guys are talking about are doing that with church funds, that I know of.

Prosperity gospel? is a label, the bible teaches us to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. There is nothing new under the sun, this spirit did not just now come to be.

Will the gospel cause one to prosper? yes, of course, prosperity is a direct affect of living a life that honors and worships God. That prosperity comes in many forms, what is prosperous to one is not to another.

With my blessings, I would search for more souls, I don't particular care for a Bentley an Escalade would do, but neither would break my spirit for souls if I didn't have them.

I hope and pray that ones understand, we persevere to do all that we can do for the furthurance of the gospel, nickels and dimes only go so far, money is not evil the love of it is. We make and use the money, we don't let the money make and use us.

always
Feb 7th 2008, 11:15 PM
Again you use the "whining" word. Here's a fact always. I know well what they teach. You say you don't and yet here you challenge me tooth and nail? And you claim that you really have no clue what they teach? How, pray tell, does that make any sense at all?

You know well your experiences with it, that's all

minnesotaice
Feb 8th 2008, 12:01 AM
To ALWAYS:


I agree with others on this thread that we have been praying about this WOF movement, I myself for decades. But somebody needs to stand up also. Jesus threw the money changers tables around.

Paul sat in prison weeping and praying but he also wrote letters to the Corinthians that were anything but gracious. He loved them so much that he said that WE were to judge those inside the church. We the believers and that if two or more witnesss come together, that person should be reprimanded. Many clouds of witnesses who have worked for Kennneth are coming forward.

When I stepped out of the WOF movement, I was told that I was of the devil for speaking out against "GODS annointed", meaning the WOF pastors. I spoke out against their teaching, by the way.

Since I have left this type of church, I can't tell you the number of "Casualties" I have met who have become bankrupt, spiritually and financially and some have walked away from the faith because they believed what Kenny and others told them "If you give to me, God will bless you over and over". Didn't happen. It is misleading, wrong and it will come out someday before God. The legal thing has yet to play out but we as believers should not stand for it in the church.

minnesotaice
Feb 8th 2008, 12:09 AM
By the way, you are always asking for examples of facts. I know that for the Benny Hinn ministry, people actually pulled receipts out of garbage cans a couple of years ago and found hotel bills for thousands of dollars. Is that illegal, not but deceptive.

His entire ministry is based on the fact that God heals everyone through him. I personally know many people who have given to him to get healed of ailments. Hundreds of people have been interviewed and have said that they faked being healed at his conferences and being sick to get up on stage. Is any of this illegal? No, but an example of how God's people are being deceived.

The question on the thread is that Kenneth is being investigated for using ministry funds (of which he pays NO taxes) for personal use. That will be played out in the legal system.

always
Feb 8th 2008, 12:14 AM
To ALWAYS:


I agree with others on this thread that we have been praying about this WOF movement, I myself for decades. But somebody needs to stand up also. Jesus threw the money changers tables around.

Paul sat in prison weeping and praying but he also wrote letters to the Corinthians that were anything but gracious. He loved them so much that he said that WE were to judge those inside the church. We the believers and that if two or more witnesss come together, that person should be reprimanded. Many clouds of witnesses who have worked for Kennneth are coming forward.

When I stepped out of the WOF movement, I was told that I was of the devil for speaking out against "GODS annointed", meaning the WOF pastors. I spoke out against their teaching, by the way.

Since I have left this type of church, I can't tell you the number of "Casualties" I have met who have become bankrupt, spiritually and financially and some have walked away from the faith because they believed what Kenny and others told them "If you give to me, God will bless you over and over". Didn't happen. It is misleading, wrong and it will come out someday before God. The legal thing has yet to play out but we as believers should not stand for it in the church.


And the believers don't, because they study to show themselves approved. I have yet to give to any televangelist, because I have a church home, and a ministry.

It is not a ministry that preys on the unstudied and those who just don't know, but wolves in sheep's clothing, the responsibility belongs to the individual to study the word for themselves. deceit is allowed.

Jim Jones told ones to drink poison and die with him, The RCC tells ones to pray to Mary and confess to the priest, Koresh, in Waco and so on.

Where was the word in the hearts of those who bankrupted behind sending more than tithes to a man? and Copeland made these individuals give up their faith? they never had faith in God, it was in a man.

Think about what you are saying, what church does not teach faith, how can you leave faith? how can you stop speaking faith?

always
Feb 8th 2008, 01:07 AM
By the way, you are always asking for examples of facts. I know that for the Benny Hinn ministry, people actually pulled receipts out of garbage cans a couple of years ago and found hotel bills for thousands of dollars. Is that illegal, not but deceptive.

His entire ministry is based on the fact that God heals everyone through him. I personally know many people who have given to him to get healed of ailments. Hundreds of people have been interviewed and have said that they faked being healed at his conferences and being sick to get up on stage. Is any of this illegal? No, but an example of how God's people are being deceived.

The question on the thread is that Kenneth is being investigated for using ministry funds (of which he pays NO taxes) for personal use. That will be played out in the legal system.

I know of one mother who took her child to one of his services, Now this man I was very skeptical of because I know God can use a man as vessel for healing, but I just didn't know about him, so I just never spoke on him.

The child had a huge cyst on the back of his neck, Hinn prayed for him, and she brought him home, the next morning that child awoke with his pillow full of blood and fluids. It was completely gone.

She gave God the glory, this is the only personal incident I know about him. There is still something about him I don't like, but I do not speak against him.

ProjectPeter
Feb 8th 2008, 01:29 AM
that would be wrong, that's obvious, but there is no proof that the people you guys are talking about are doing that with church funds, that I know of.

Prosperity gospel? is a label, the bible teaches us to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. There is nothing new under the sun, this spirit did not just now come to be.

Will the gospel cause one to prosper? yes, of course, prosperity is a direct affect of living a life that honors and worships God. That prosperity comes in many forms, what is prosperous to one is not to another.

With my blessings, I would search for more souls, I don't particular care for a Bentley an Escalade would do, but neither would break my spirit for souls if I didn't have them.

I hope and pray that ones understand, we persevere to do all that we can do for the furthurance of the gospel, nickels and dimes only go so far, money is not evil the love of it is. We make and use the money, we don't let the money make and use us.
Always... it has been proven time and time again by many folks. You just chose not to believe it I guess but goodness... it has been proven so many times it's unreal that folks still say it hasn't been proven. Goodness... Benny Hinn goes to a hotel... they LOVE HIM! He spends insane amounts of money on suites and pays tips to the tune of several thousand bucks. It is totally insane.

threebigrocks
Feb 8th 2008, 01:31 AM
Where was the word in the hearts of those who bankrupted behind sending more than tithes to a man? and Copeland made these individuals give up their faith? they never had faith in God, it was in a man.

Think about what you are saying, what church does not teach faith, how can you leave faith? how can you stop speaking faith?

And there is no accountability before God for the pastors who mislead?

1 Timothy 4


1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


Scriptural doctrine sheds light on much, no?

ProjectPeter
Feb 8th 2008, 01:31 AM
You know well your experiences with it, that's allNo always... I know what they teach. I've studied it... worked with their ministries... gotten folks out of their ministries... studied it even more and for hours and hours and hours because here in Atlanta it is important because those churches are all over the place. So it ain't "my experience." It is what they teach. Again... do you want to discuss the doctrine?

minnesotaice
Feb 8th 2008, 01:45 AM
I know of one mother who took her child to one of his services, Now this man I was very skeptical of because I know God can use a man as vessel for healing, but I just didn't know about him, so I just never spoke on him.

The child had a huge cyst on the back of his neck, Hinn prayed for him, and she brought him home, the next morning that child awoke with his pillow full of blood and fluids. It was completely gone.

She gave God the glory, this is the only personal incident I know about him. There is still something about him I don't like, but I do not speak against him.


You certainly have the right to your opinion. Just a quick question, in your opinion, based on scripture and what you have read, IF Kenneth or anyone is convicted of tax fraud or illegal use of money, what do you think the church, or more generally, his church should do about it? Should he be reprimanded in front of his congregation and put out of leadership or should he get a slap on the wrist and allowed to proceed? Just a question.

always
Feb 8th 2008, 02:15 AM
No always... I know what they teach. I've studied it... worked with their ministries... gotten folks out of their ministries... studied it even more and for hours and hours and hours because here in Atlanta it is important because those churches are all over the place. So it ain't "my experience." It is what they teach. Again... do you want to discuss the doctrine?

PP, yes! post and I will answer in the evenings, when I'm off work.

always
Feb 8th 2008, 02:26 AM
You certainly have the right to your opinion. Just a quick question, in your opinion, based on scripture and what you have read, IF Kenneth or anyone is convicted of tax fraud or illegal use of money, what do you think the church, or more generally, his church should do about it? Should he be reprimanded in front of his congregation and put out of leadership or should he get a slap on the wrist and allowed to proceed? Just a question.

If he is convicted of tax fraud, he needs to repent to his church, and the church should say wether or not he should be put out of leadership,according to their church protocol. there are many variables to this,

more than likely the church would be destroyed to the point that it would not be a factor.

threebigrocks
Feb 8th 2008, 02:46 AM
If he is convicted of tax fraud, he needs to repent to his church, and the church should say wether or not he should be put out of leadership,according to their church protocol. there are many variables to this,

more than likely the church would be destroyed to the point that it would not be a factor.

What about scriptural protocol? In light of the 1 Timothy passage, should he be in a leadership position now?

always
Feb 8th 2008, 02:56 AM
What about scriptural protocol? In light of the 1 Timothy passage, should he be in a leadership position now?

Well no he shouldn't, but you have to factor in forgiveness!

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

threebigrocks
Feb 8th 2008, 03:04 AM
Well no he shouldn't, but you have to factor in forgiveness!

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.



That is between Mr. Copeland and the Lord, and those whom he has led into darkness. I'm sure it's far more than he or anyone realizes. Whole 'nother issue in and of itself.

Really, forgiveness has nothing to do in seeing him fit for church leadership. One is either qualified or not, correct?

minnesotaice
Feb 8th 2008, 03:28 AM
Well no he shouldn't, but you have to factor in forgiveness!

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

I am just wondering how you would feel as a person if this leader you trusted was found out to have lied to you about ministry, your tithes and about who he/she is and what they do.

You can forgive but could you trust again? That person had the Holy Spirit in their life right? and should have known right from wrong.

ProjectPeter
Feb 8th 2008, 10:45 AM
PP, yes! post and I will answer in the evenings, when I'm off work.
I will start a new thread on it today. I'll leave you a link.

Lyndie
Feb 8th 2008, 12:54 PM
Give me one example of a normal brick and mortar church that does what the evangelists do. I bet you cannot, Lord knows I can't.

I can, because I have left two of them. I will not give names of them tho. They weren't neccesarily fleecing the flock, but some of thier doctrine didn't line up with the Word. Did I pray for them to be taken down? Nope. I prayed for them to see truth, and for God to be merciful to them. I just don't see how praying that a ministry get torn down or a person get 'what's coming to them' is helpful. If that were my case, I would have been dead and in h*ll a long time ago. Like I said, its much easier to point fingers at people we don't really know, on the words or accusations of other people we don't know. I am also sure we could find some things on those doing the investigating that they wouldn't want to come out.

For example- I wrote to a ministry watch organization to ask to see thier financials since they were investigating others and I thought they should be as open as they want others to be. I never got any answer. We must be ready to reap what we sow when it comes to putting others under the magnifying glass.

VerticalReality
Feb 8th 2008, 02:11 PM
We must be ready to reap what we sow when it comes to putting others under the magnifying glass.

I agree with this 100%, Lyndie. Good point. This sort of thing gets on my nerves a little bit. If you are going to examine someone else your own life needs to be ready to come under the same examination. This is what irritates me most about websites like the deception in the church site. That site is dedicated to "exposing" false teachers, and they have a ton of nonsense accusing preachers of all sorts of past sin. They run one particular preacher who has been dead for years through the mud and call him a past drunkard and charlatan, not taking into account that even if he was he could have repented of that long ago. All the while they are doing this they don't bother to offer up any of their own past sin or what they may be guilty of now. They are just trying to drag preachers through the mud. I have a serious problem with that sort of nonsense.

St_Michael
Feb 8th 2008, 02:55 PM
I agree with this 100%, Lyndie. Good point. This sort of thing gets on my nerves a little bit. If you are going to examine someone else your own life needs to be ready to come under the same examination. This is what irritates me most about websites like the deception in the church site. That site is dedicated to "exposing" false teachers, and they have a ton of nonsense accusing preachers of all sorts of past sin. They run one particular preacher who has been dead for years through the mud and call him a past drunkard and charlatan, not taking into account that even if he was he could have repented of that long ago. All the while they are doing this they don't bother to offer up any of their own past sin or what they may be guilty of now. They are just trying to drag preachers through the mud. I have a serious problem with that sort of nonsense.


I think it is a beef with the WoF movement more than any single "minister."

Of course you have that Paulk mess in Atlanta and that Kansas Baptist Church (I really do not think they are true Baptists)....

but the vast majority of scandal is coming from the TBN / WoF folks.

threebigrocks
Feb 8th 2008, 03:03 PM
I think it is a beef with the WoF movement more than any single "minister."

Of course you have that Paulk mess in Atlanta and that Kansas Baptist Church (I really do not think they are true Baptists)....

but the vast majority of scandal is coming from the TBN / WoF folks.

It is indeed the doctrine that will lead astray. Would be nice to hold it up to scripture and see how the light is reflected in it all, no? ;)

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 03:28 PM
This morning I endured a commercial for "Miracle Manna". It was absolutely horrible. The whole premise was how to get money you didn't work for. The preacher Popoff (or something like that) said he was a prophet that would tell you what to do in order to get the "miracle manna". He was very charismatic. For someone in dire need, I can see why he would be attractive and could be led astray from the simplicity of Christ. Indeed, doctrine is very important when it comes to how to deal with a desert experience.

Seeker of truth
Feb 8th 2008, 03:31 PM
This morning I endured a commercial for "Miracle Manna". It was absolutely horrible. The whole premise was how to get money you didn't work for. The preacher Popoff (or something like that) said he was a prophet that would tell you what to do in order to get the "miracle manna". He was very charismatic. For someone in dire need, I can see why he would be attractive and could be led astray from the simplicity of Christ. Indeed, doctrine is very important when it comes to how to deal with a desert experience.

Wat it Peter Popoff by chance? There was a scandle with him years ago but I don't rememner details.

I may not agree with the tactics used by some of these people but I will not badmouth them. As long as they are preaching Gods word we are to keep our mouths off of them if I remember Scripture correctly.

St_Michael
Feb 8th 2008, 03:35 PM
Thats the problem they are not preaching God's Word but a twisted, vile version of it.

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 03:39 PM
Wat it Peter Popoff by chance? There was a scandle with him years ago but I don't rememner details.

I may not agree with the tactics used by some of these people but I will not badmouth them. As long as they are preaching Gods word we are to keep our mouths off of them if I remember Scripture correctly.

I think it was. I don't like digging into scandals much. But I don't mind talking about the doctrine. He was teaching how to get money without working as a miracle. Rarely did that happen in scripture. Even the passage he used had work involved which was the woman gathering bottles/pots from her neighbors and then pouring her own oil. God simply multiplied the oil. Another time when God miraculously gave to a widow was when Elijah told the widow woman to make him a meal first out of what was left. The meal never ran out but she worked for it by feeding the man of God.

A laborer is worthy of his hire and as God blesses his labor, that money is his to do with as he sees fit. We learn this from Ananias and Saphira whom God killed for lying but he told them "while it was yours, you could have kept it. Why lie about it?" I know I paraphrased that.

Anyway, this guy was preaching getting money without working for it. That's just bad doctrine. I need to call the number next time to see if he ever ask or suggest money being given as part of the whole thing. To me, that would be the sin of Elijah's servant who took a gift from Namaan for his healing. He discovered soon enough that was a bad idea when Namaan's disease was given to him.

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 03:40 PM
Thats the problem they are not preaching God's Word but a twisted, vile version of it.

For me, that is too broad a statement. There are prosperity messages in the scriptures. At this point, I am not ready to say that everyone that teaches a form of prosperity twists the scripture. I have no problem saying what I heard last night was wrong though. But how can I speak against that which I have not heard?

Seeker of truth
Feb 8th 2008, 03:43 PM
I think it was. I don't like digging into scandals much. But I don't mind talking about the doctrine. He was teaching how to get money without working as a miracle. Rarely did that happen in scripture. Even the passage he used had work involved which was the woman gathering bottles/pots from her neighbors and then pouring her own oil. God simply multiplied the oil. Another time when God miraculously gave to a widow was when Elijah told the widow woman to make him a meal first out of what was left. The meal never ran out but she worked for it by feeding the man of God.

A laborer is worthy of his hire and as God blesses his labor, that money is his to do with as he sees fit. We learn this from Ananias and Saphira whom God killed for lying but he told them "while it was yours, you could have kept it. Why lie about it?" I know I paraphrased that.

Anyway, this guy was preaching getting money without working for it. That's just bad doctrine. I need to call the number next time to see if he ever ask or suggest money being given as part of the whole thing. To me, that would be the sin of Elijah's servant who took a gift from Namaan for his healing. He discovered soon enough that was a bad idea when Namaan's disease was given to him.

I know what you say is correct. I feel it is up to God to deal with these people, not for us to badmouth them.

We had a Sermon on that awhile back. The Pastor told us "you may not approve of them, but keep your mouth off of them. It's up to God to deal with them. Don't make Him deal with you because of it". It left quite an impression ;)

St_Michael
Feb 8th 2008, 03:48 PM
It is funny to me that some here use a double standard in their arguments.

For example, there was one thread (I forget where) that basically agreed with kicking gay folks out of leadership of the church if not out of the church itself.

Based on Pauls letter to the Corinthians.

Now we have these guys that are obviously doing some shady work and in sin but now Cor does not apply?

Interesting...

ProjectPeter
Feb 8th 2008, 03:59 PM
Here is the link.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1530466#post1530466

VerticalReality
Feb 8th 2008, 04:01 PM
It is funny to me that some here use a double standard in their arguments.

For example, there was one thread (I forget where) that basically agreed with kicking gay folks out of leadership of the church if not out of the church itself.

Based on Pauls letter to the Corinthians.

Now we have these guys that are obviously doing some shady work and in sin but now Cor does not apply?

Interesting...

Corinthians absolutely DOES apply if you have knowledge of their sin. If you do not have knowledge of their sin how are going to judge them for it? That would place you in sin.

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 04:05 PM
It is funny to me that some here use a double standard in their arguments.

For example, there was one thread (I forget where) that basically agreed with kicking gay folks out of leadership of the church if not out of the church itself.

Based on Pauls letter to the Corinthians.

Now we have these guys that are obviously doing some shady work and in sin but now Cor does not apply?

Interesting...

Oh yea, it does apply! When it all comes to light if there is no repentance, then by all means 1 Cor 5 applies.

St_Michael
Feb 8th 2008, 04:06 PM
That is up to the Grand Jury. I do know for example... Creflo Dollar said, "Bring on an investigation." And when they showed up.... slamma the doora.

I think a lot hit the fan in various evidentiaries when R. Roberts got fired at ORU after being exposed for stealing (scandal started in oct 07). A lot of these guys Copeland included were on the Board of Reagents. Go figure.

Plus all this theology comes from Kenyon.

I<3Jesus
Feb 8th 2008, 04:16 PM
I can, because I have left two of them. I will not give names of them tho. They weren't neccesarily fleecing the flock, but some of thier doctrine didn't line up with the Word. Did I pray for them to be taken down? Nope. I prayed for them to see truth, and for God to be merciful to them. I just don't see how praying that a ministry get torn down or a person get 'what's coming to them' is helpful. If that were my case, I would have been dead and in h*ll a long time ago. Like I said, its much easier to point fingers at people we don't really know, on the words or accusations of other people we don't know. I am also sure we could find some things on those doing the investigating that they wouldn't want to come out.

For example- I wrote to a ministry watch organization to ask to see thier financials since they were investigating others and I thought they should be as open as they want others to be. I never got any answer. We must be ready to reap what we sow when it comes to putting others under the magnifying glass.

You are making an awful lot of assumptions about me. When did I say I was praying for their ministry to get torn down and for them to get what is coming to them? You haven't the foggiest clue what I am praying for, so do not put words in my mouth. Do I want to see the truth come out? Yes, because then all of those people whom they led astray can turn their focus to God and not some charismatic leader who is ushering them down the wrong path. Believe me when I say anyone who wants to put me under a magnifying glass would be pretty bored. I stay at home in my pajamas all day hurting no one.

ProjectPeter
Feb 8th 2008, 04:19 PM
Yeah... he was busted for doing the "earpiece" stuff in calling out "words from God" to folks. That along with a lot of other things. He was ignored by folks for many years but is getting a bit larger again. But this guy, and I don't hesitate to say this at all, is a perfect picture to put in Webster's for a charlatan. Folks should steer clear of the man. He is poison.

I<3Jesus
Feb 8th 2008, 04:19 PM
It is funny to me that some here use a double standard in their arguments.

For example, there was one thread (I forget where) that basically agreed with kicking gay folks out of leadership of the church if not out of the church itself.

Based on Pauls letter to the Corinthians.

Now we have these guys that are obviously doing some shady work and in sin but now Cor does not apply?

Interesting...

You'll find that happens a lot. Remember the old phrase too many cooks spoil the dish? I think there should be a Christian additive like that for message boards - LOL!

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 04:21 PM
Yeah... he was busted for doing the "earpiece" stuff in calling out "words from God" to folks. That along with a lot of other things. He was ignored by folks for many years but is getting a bit larger again. But this guy, and I don't hesitate to say this at all, is a perfect picture to put in Webster's for a charlatan. Folks should steer clear of the man. He is poison.

What man? Popoff?

ProjectPeter
Feb 8th 2008, 04:37 PM
What man? Popoff?
Yep... meant to quote you when I posted it! :lol:

VerticalReality
Feb 8th 2008, 05:07 PM
Yeah... he was busted for doing the "earpiece" stuff in calling out "words from God" to folks. That along with a lot of other things. He was ignored by folks for many years but is getting a bit larger again. But this guy, and I don't hesitate to say this at all, is a perfect picture to put in Webster's for a charlatan. Folks should steer clear of the man. He is poison.

Ugh . . . this dude needs someone to "lay hands" on him. When I think of this I see the Lord Jesus making a whip of chords . . . :mad:

ProjectPeter
Feb 8th 2008, 05:23 PM
Ugh . . . this dude needs someone to "lay hands" on him. When I think of this I see the Lord Jesus making a whip of chords . . . :mad:
His prey now is usually lower educated, poor folk. And yeah... I'd supply both the chords and the swinging arms should God need an agent. :saint:

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 05:27 PM
His prey now is usually lower educated, poor folk. And yeah... I'd supply both the chords and the swinging arms should God need an agent. :saint:

He's an example of a bird that finds shade in the Kingdom, IMO. He's not part of the kingdom, but he uses certain things to fund his way of life. No doubt this man needs to be dealt with. How does the church go about dealing with such things? If he was breaking the law, the government would deal with him. He's under no authority that I can tell. Anyway, for the most part, how is the church to deal with such things that is really outside the church, but clearly taking advantage of a misapplied truth in scripture.

ProjectPeter
Feb 8th 2008, 05:41 PM
He's an example of a bird that finds shade in the Kingdom, IMO. He's not part of the kingdom, but he uses certain things to fund his way of life. No doubt this man needs to be dealt with. How does the church go about dealing with such things? If he was breaking the law, the government would deal with him. He's under no authority that I can tell. Anyway, for the most part, how is the church to deal with such things that is really outside the church, but clearly taking advantage of a misapplied truth in scripture.
He's preaching so he's protected by the law for the most part. There isn't even a law against wearing earpieces and having folks tell you stuff. As long as they stay within the nonprofit laws... they are all good. That's what I am saying about the issue with Copeland. Truth be told... I would be surprised if they can do anything legally against him. He has a troop of folks making sure they cross every t and dot every i. But then there are other issues that are just not sitting right with folks... even the heathens. So what folks can expect out of this is that there are going to be some rewrites to those laws and it is going to make it complicated for those guys to do some of these things. But they won't be the ones worst hurt. They have plenty of money to do whatever they need to do. The one it will hurt is Joe Schmucky in Schmuckyville Alabama that has a church of 50 folk. It'll be these guys that get stung the hardest.

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 05:45 PM
He's preaching so he's protected by the law for the most part. There isn't even a law against wearing earpieces and having folks tell you stuff. As long as they stay within the nonprofit laws... they are all good. That's what I am saying about the issue with Copeland. Truth be told... I would be surprised if they can do anything legally against him. He has a troop of folks making sure they cross every t and dot every i. But then there are other issues that are just not sitting right with folks... even the heathens. So what folks can expect out of this is that there are going to be some rewrites to those laws and it is going to make it complicated for those guys to do some of these things. But they won't be the ones worst hurt. They have plenty of money to do whatever they need to do. The one it will hurt is Joe Schmucky in Schmuckyville Alabama that has a church of 50 folk. It'll be these guys that get stung the hardest.

Yea, I had the same thought when you wrote that earlier. The folks running my little church in Alabama really have no clue about how business law works and in the US, nonprofits are still governed by business law. So yea, the 50 member churches will be hurt.

But, what is the church to do about these guys that are living off their name? Or said another way, finding shade in the shadow of the church? They are not of the church but certainly leaching off of the church. Not sure scripture addresses it clearly. That's why I am asking. Perhaps you know of some passages that might deal with how we are to respond to someone that is not under our authority, not breaking laws, but clearly teaching heresy?

VerticalReality
Feb 8th 2008, 06:00 PM
I don't know of much you can do other than expose the false teachings and pray that folks won't be deceived by it.

ProjectPeter
Feb 8th 2008, 06:20 PM
Yeah... expose it and try and stay out of it and keep the sheep out of it. And get ready to learn how to work outside of that 501C. Sooner or later the real church is going to have to come out from underneath the weight of that thing.

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2008, 06:23 PM
Yeah... expose it and try and stay out of it and keep the sheep out of it. And get ready to learn how to work outside of that 501C. Sooner or later the real church is going to have to come out from underneath the weight of that thing.

Interesting. It can be a weight too. Some folks don't really know the liability they place themselves under.

As for the exposing and preaching sound doctrine, that sounds right. I can't find anything else in scripture about trying to deal with them.

VerticalReality
Feb 8th 2008, 06:27 PM
As for the exposing and preaching sound doctrine, that sounds right. I can't find anything else in scripture about trying to deal with them.

Scripture basically teaches just to steer clear of them.

napsnsnacks
Feb 8th 2008, 06:45 PM
Yeah - but that's just one of his 4 jets. And they're at his personal airport, not too far from his 18,000 square foot lakeside mansion.

Kenneth Copeland does not walk as Jesus walked. He does not preach what Jesus preached. He does not live as Jesus lived.


On the other hand, what happens to him legally is of little consequence to me, so I don't need to waste a lot of time on it.

We know that but they don't accept it because they have always portrayed Jesus the carpenter as a rich construction contractor.

I could be wrong but it could have been Copeland himself that offered that as biblical truth and if it was not him it was definitely Oral Roberts.

Here is one of the better articles I have ever seen written on the subject:

http://www.raptureready.com/resource/hunt/dh19.html

Lyndie
Feb 12th 2008, 11:53 AM
You are making an awful lot of assumptions about me. When did I say I was praying for their ministry to get torn down and for them to get what is coming to them? You haven't the foggiest clue what I am praying for, so do not put words in my mouth. Do I want to see the truth come out? Yes, because then all of those people whom they led astray can turn their focus to God and not some charismatic leader who is ushering them down the wrong path. Believe me when I say anyone who wants to put me under a magnifying glass would be pretty bored. I stay at home in my pajamas all day hurting no one.

Sorry, I didn't mean you, per say, it was meant as general you. I know people do pray for those ministiries to be torn down. I've seen it on other boards, and just because the exact words aren't there, I know that's what some people want. Let me say too, that if the reason someone is following the Lord or listening to a certain preacher is to be rich, they have serious heart issues already.

always
Feb 12th 2008, 06:30 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean you, per say, it was meant as general you. I know people do pray for those ministiries to be torn down. I've seen it on other boards, and just because the exact words aren't there, I know that's what some people want. Let me say too, that if the reason someone is following the Lord or listening to a certain preacher is to be rich, they have serious heart issues already.


Excellent post, the responsibility for our souls belong to us when all is said and done.

I'm not praying for the destruction of any ministry, for God is not through with any of us yet, and I would never place my self in a position that I was praying for the destruction of something God is working out.

Mograce2U
Feb 13th 2008, 04:58 PM
Yeah... expose it and try and stay out of it and keep the sheep out of it. And get ready to learn how to work outside of that 501C. Sooner or later the real church is going to have to come out from underneath the weight of that thing.It is not just Christian churches which are caught in this glut. But because they claim to hold THE truth, it is their hypocrisy which gets the attention.

(Luke 11:53-54 KJV) And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things: {54} Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

(Luke 12:1-3 KJV) In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. {2} For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. {3} Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

I doubt that the Feds will repeal the 501c laws, but they certainly can make it harder to comply. The real challenge to the churches is whether they can do without that benefit altogether - and are they willing to do so? That is if they want their reputation to be purified in the eyes of the world. That would mean trusting God to provide. Which would make calling down material blessings from God for those who are generous a bit hard to promote. Now the tax-exempt status supports them to provide their example. Without that example to flaunt, where is their testimony? It just might bring the reform that is needed right at the pulpit. But perhaps not, since they would only draw harder upon the OT requirement to tithe instead. Yet true generosity is not promoted by any of these things. A cheerful heart made glad by the Lord knows it is better to give than receive so as to help the brethren, and is not constrained to feed the covetous men who try to take a spoil from them.

When the early Christians laid all that they possessed at the Apostle's feet, it was all distributed among them. The Apostle's took nothing for themselves above and beyond what was shared by all, unlike these modern day preachers are doing.

If judgment begins at the house of God (1 Pet 4:17) and the Lord will judge His people (Heb 10:30); then I expect that these props men are leaning upon instead of trusting in God to provide, will be removed in due time.

(Titus 2:14 KJV) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Phil 2:15 KJV) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

(Eph 5:27 KJV) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

When this shameful thing we have brought upon ourselves is purged from us, then the true sons of God are bound to shine a bit brighter. Our enemies are being used to judge us - those whose hearts are covetous, recognize easily enough those who are just like them. And we ought to be ashamed by our hypocrisy which causes the unbelievers to blasphemy our Lord.

Who better to uncover those who are evading paying their taxes - in the "name of the Lord", than those whose job it is to raise them? Greedy men are being used - is this not like our Lord who turns the same evil in kind upon those who promote it?

ProjectPeter
Feb 13th 2008, 05:35 PM
It is not just Christian churches which are caught in this glut. But because they claim to hold THE truth, it is their hypocrisy which gets the attention.

(Luke 11:53-54 KJV) And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things: {54} Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

(Luke 12:1-3 KJV) In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. {2} For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. {3} Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

I doubt that the Feds will repeal the 501c laws, but they certainly can make it harder to comply. The real challenge to the churches is whether they can do without that benefit altogether - and are they willing to do so? That is if they want their reputation to be purified in the eyes of the world. That would mean trusting God to provide. Which would make calling down material blessings from God for those who are generous a bit hard to promote. Now the tax-exempt status supports them to provide their example. Without that example to flaunt, where is their testimony? It just might bring the reform that is needed right at the pulpit. But perhaps not, since they would only draw harder upon the OT requirement to tithe instead. Yet true generosity is not promoted by any of these things. A cheerful heart made glad by the Lord knows it is better to give than receive so as to help the brethren, and is not constrained to feed the covetous men who try to take a spoil from them.

When the early Christians laid all that they possessed at the Apostle's feet, it was all distributed among them. The Apostle's took nothing for themselves above and beyond what was shared by all, unlike these modern day preachers are doing.

If judgment begins at the house of God (1 Pet 4:17) and the Lord will judge His people (Heb 10:30); then I expect that these props men are leaning upon instead of trusting in God to provide, will be removed in due time.

(Titus 2:14 KJV) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Phil 2:15 KJV) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

(Eph 5:27 KJV) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

When this shameful thing we have brought upon ourselves is purged from us, then the true sons of God are bound to shine a bit brighter. Our enemies are being used to judge us - those whose hearts are covetous, recognize easily enough those who are just like them. And we ought to be ashamed by our hypocrisy which causes the unbelievers to blasphemy our Lord.

Who better to uncover those who are evading paying their taxes - in the "name of the Lord", than those whose job it is to raise them? Greedy men are being used - is this not like our Lord who turns the same evil in kind upon those who promote it?
The weird thing of it is... they really don't need it because it's already written in the Tax Codes that churches are exempt from paying taxes. Property tax is the greatest expense that everyone always fusses about but churches aren't taxed. What they use it for it buying stuff at office depot and whatnot and not paying sales tax. I figure that's a whole lot of controling just to save five, six or seven percent on sales tax.

Mograce2U
Feb 14th 2008, 04:28 AM
The weird thing of it is... they really don't need it because it's already written in the Tax Codes that churches are exempt from paying taxes. Property tax is the greatest expense that everyone always fusses about but churches aren't taxed. What they use it for it buying stuff at office depot and whatnot and not paying sales tax. I figure that's a whole lot of controling just to save five, six or seven percent on sales tax.The Use Sales Tax law is written so that if you buy something which is to be sold to another, you do not have to pay the tax because you are not the one who will USE the item. I suppose the reason the churches are exempt is because they are not keeping any real profit from the money they receive from donations as it is only to cover the cost of their operation. Which things would be deductible anyway, if they did have a profit. The problem is they ARE making a profit and using it for themselves, when they are supposed to be distributing it to others. Its a great scam if you can get away with it!

minnesotaice
Feb 14th 2008, 11:44 AM
The thing I always here about Copeland, Hinn, Meyer, Duplantis and others is that we are NOT supposed to question God's annointed and you get rebuked just for asking questions in general about where he money is going.

So we are just to assume that everyone who says they are a preacher in this world, is God's annointed? What does that mean?

I also here Huckabee say that Copeland is being picked on by the IRS. Like the IRS doesn't audit other non profits??? Anyways, someone has to.

ProjectPeter
Feb 14th 2008, 12:42 PM
The Use Sales Tax law is written so that if you buy something which is to be sold to another, you do not have to pay the tax because you are not the one who will USE the item. I suppose the reason the churches are exempt is because they are not keeping any real profit from the money they receive from donations as it is only to cover the cost of their operation. Which things would be deductible anyway, if they did have a profit. The problem is they ARE making a profit and using it for themselves, when they are supposed to be distributing it to others. Its a great scam if you can get away with it!
There have been several that thought they were getting away with it sure enough. Problem is... that whole light thing. Sooner or later that lights going to shine on you. And yeah... that's another big point about the write-off. They'd do better writting off the expenses than they would be in paying the little bit of sales tax. A few churches out there are doing this and faring very well as a result. And the beauty of it... they aren't restricted to things they can say in their pulpit.

Mograce2U
Feb 14th 2008, 02:53 PM
The thing I always here about Copeland, Hinn, Meyer, Duplantis and others is that we are NOT supposed to question God's annointed and you get rebuked just for asking questions in general about where he money is going.

So we are just to assume that everyone who says they are a preacher in this world, is God's annointed? What does that mean?

I also here Huckabee say that Copeland is being picked on by the IRS. Like the IRS doesn't audit other non profits??? Anyways, someone has to.When you are the king then you are in the right position to set the rules. This is the anointing they want to claim is upon them that puts them above reproach. Problem is, that in this world there are higher authorities ordained by God which we must still submit to. A good king makes good rules and keeps them as well - setting the example as the leader of his people. A tyrant however doesn't.

The anointing they claim to have is being used by them to make themselves tyrants over the people. They do not want to keep the law so as to have peace in their kingdom; rather they want you to keep their rules so they can take all that belongs to you for themselves. Power corrupts those who abuse it. And that is the result which has come upon these men and women. If they were truly anointed by God they would submit to Him - not try to use that privelege to take a gain for themselves.

So rather than seeing themselves with an anointing that only the King of kings has, they ought to see themselves as His stewards. And an unjust steward ought not to feel too secure when his stewardship is discovered for what it is. For he can lose all that he gained for himself in a heartbeat. Then all his treasures that he trusted in will be left behind in the earth - and what will he have to show for what he did with his God-given authority in the day he must stand before Him? Death is still the greater equalizer which comes upon the wise and the foolish, the rich and the poor. But the wise man considers the end of the matter and lives his life in light of it. That is the true anointing we have received.

Solomon knew that for all his wealth and power, that unless a man fears the Lord, he will be found a fool in the end. That is the wisdom which these "anointed" men lack. They fear IRS now, but that is only a taste of what awaits them if they do not repent.